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Re: Post singularity society

At 1:28 PM 6/20/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>Kelly wrote:
>>I.E. we are doomed, and all civilization will
>>collapse, or we will survive only by stealing from everyone else.  This is
>>nonsence, but its geting to be common enough nonsence to worry me, and your
>>comment about "maybe we need to have fewer people" seemed to suggest it.
>I wrote the latter because I had in mind that many may want to live a bit
>more roomier.

If that was true we wouldn't be rushing into the cities.  ;)

>>As to things that still need to be done by humans (growing food, building
>>houses etc) the number of humans neccisary to do that is droping rapidly
>>(bad news if you work in those fields.  Thats A BIG issue in the U.S.).
>I assume that is an upcoming problem for all developed countries.

And developing.  The green revolution actually increase hunger since it was
so much more productive it put a lot of subsistence farmers out of work.

>>But the big issues are often cultural.  Everone can by the same equipment.
>Yes, I've that feeling too, I always wonder if people in Third World
>countries want to do the work themselves, or that they want us to do the job
>for them. I often get the idea that the latter attracts the biggest group.

It varies, but yes a lot of coutries don't understand why groups that do
the work should get more of the reward than groups that do nothing.  That
was a big issue that trashed the law of the sea treaty negotiations years
ago, and stoped sea bottom mining projects in their tracks.  Its been a
constant fear that the same thing could stop space explotation in its
tracks in the near future.

>>But often even if poor counties (or rich third world ones) do by it and the
>>resorces, or even if they are given them.  They can't assimilate and use
>>them.  The mid east spent a ton importing equip and geting international
>>contracts.  But then they found their people for cultural reasons
>>couldn't/wouldn't operate the systems correctly.  All the contracts
>>vanished.  All the companies left.  It wasn't a mater of training.  They
>>knew how, they just wouldn't.  Doing what was nessisary for the equipment
>>was unacceptable to them culturally.
>Indeed, I've heard several times that as soon as they get their money they
>leave and come back when the money is gone. The only way to make them come
>back, is to pay them just enough to life one day.
>They seem to be happy with what they have. Sure they like new "toys", just
>like we do, but they don't find them important enough to work for day and
>They often have a lot of spare time (or at least we see it as spare time),
>the drawback is that their lives are a bit more insecure. (With todays crime
>one can doubt that.)
>Most people from Western cultures want to or "are forced to" make enough
>money to live according to high standards.
>Maybe someday most people of undeveloped countries decide to do like us, one
>simply cannot force that onto someone. Of course they like what we have, but
>most of us like things we don't have (yet).

Yeah they screem when they see how well, and long, we live compared to
them.  But screem just as loud when they have to do the dirty work to get

>>Thats going to be a bigger issue as more technologies and issues get out to
>>the third world.  They will be forced to deal with things they don't want
>>to deal with, and may just drop it and not adapt.  But when they stay where
>>they are, and the rest of the world races past.  They will not blame
>I'm not sure who they want to blame, it's always easier to blame someone
>else, I think they should show some initiatives themselves first.

They blame us.  We have it and woung give it to them for free.

>Maybe we are partly to blame, we buy lots of resources from them, things
>they probably will never get back (at least not in usable form). On the
>other hand their leaders should be smart enough to regulate that, but it
>seems they (and their friends) are the only ones who get the money.

You kind of have it backwards.  Their economies are almost completly
involved around selling us raw materials.  They don't need the ores or
fuel.  They don't have an industry that can use it.  Also in the future it
woun't be valuble.  (what is and isn't a valuble resource changes radically
over time and technology.)  Thier biggest fear is that we (developed world)
will develop alternate sources.  Thats one of the things that trashed the
law of the sea treaty and will be a risk to space development treaties.  If
we develop mining in the solar system.  We will have access to ore and fuel
far more numerous and of far better quality then the third world can sell
to us, and without political or ecological impacts to locals.  So we, and
probably will rapidly, supply all our needs (or theirs for that mater)
cheaper from space.  I.E. we will stop buying from them!  Their economies
will be colapse!

>So most of these countries have internal problems, and the poor people know
>that it helped more to ask Western countries for aid than to ask their own

And the governments have found that they can ask for aid, get it, and sell
the materials for cash, or use it as a weapon domestically.

>I believe that we generally agree...




Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)