starship-design: Re: Starship outlook

[KellySt@aol.com]

Hi 
Glad you liked the site.  And I forwarded this to the group list server.


In a message dated 7/4/03 8:55:06 AM, zsolt1124@yahoo.com writes:

>INTERSTELLAR PROGRAM CONCEPT
>By Zsolt Bereczki
> 
>Interstellar Program concept outline - preliminary probe-satellite 
exploration
>of star systems, - followed if system suitable, by sail /fuel slow and
>difficult pioneer mission, and follow on colonization missions in faster
>sail/sail ships.
> 
>Criteria for colonization of system: One Earth or at least Mars, or Titan
>like planet with 
>moderate temperature, and radiation environment, tolerable weather system
>(not like callysto), some atmosphere - prefrebly with useful gases from
>wich Oxygen can be extracted, suitable gravity somewhere between that of
>Earth or Mars. To launch a manned mission or colonization mission to a
>system with only gas giants, or gas giants and some barren moons, venus
>like nasty bakeries,or callisto like dark, difficult, nasty-atmosphered,
>and nasty wet weather-system holes in space would not be worthvile. 

The question is why colionize?  What usefull or practical porpose would it 
serve?  Without that theres not going to be any colonies.



>
>In order for a manned mission to be launched to begin colonization process
>a ‘jewel’, a target planet that can evetually be landed on (having set
>up suitable space and low grav moon based infrastructure as preliminary
>support for down to planet conveying system), and be lived on with some
>degree of comfort - would have to be present.
>Colonization mission would consist of 2-16 persons, augumented with frozen
>genetic material for augumentative inverto pregnancies to  maintain genetic
>stability of the crew in transit if necessary, and generations of pioneer
>personell in target system, and to support the gradual increase in population
>eventually leading up to a healthy population of 10,000 none-related 
individuals
>based community wich can be set up even without terran augumentation of
>population by transtellar settlers.
>
>Manned pioneer mission would be launched if system was found to be suitable
>on a 60-240 year journey basis, with minimal but suitable and to some degree,
>but especially in critical areas redundant ship loadout, and therefore
>minimal necessary mass - with the possibility of total demise of ship and
>crew anticipated and accepted as a possible outcome. (just as it was with
>the first gemini and russian space programs.)

You really need to keep flight times to little more 20 years.  Otherwise the 
ship sizes and complexity skyrocket, nd its far less likely to to get funded - 
or arive before later faster ships are launched..


> 
>New Ship concept - sail/starbreak - my idea is to use the target star itself,
>its light, 
>magnetic field, parcticles, plasma, and in close-by passes it’s gravity
>to slow the ship in 
>many passes 

Because of the high interstalar aproch speeds, you can't do mulltiple passes. 
 If you don't slow down into the star systems orbital speed the first time, 
your through the starsystem out out the other side.  Also the stars light, and 
as far as I can mag field, plasma, and the rest is far to weak to slow a ship 
at relativistic speeds.  Your talking about speeds tens of thousands of times 
as fast as star system escape velocities..


>- similar to air breaking off target planets, and gravity breaking
>using Jupiter’s gravity - implemented by satellites today. Even if this
>could not slow the ship in itself enough, with a lighter, minimal ship
>it could considerably reduce fuel needs, thus making interstellar flight
>more feasible.
> 
>Ship type would consist of a fuel/sail ship or sail/starbreake ship if
>the electromagnetic 
>fields, plasma, light, and gravity of target star could smehow be harnessed
>to slow the ship, or even partially slow the ship reducing break system
>fuel needs. An anticapatable possibility with star breaking is many near
>star passes over a period of decades to gradually dump speed and slow the
>vessel, if so, this would be have to be accepted as a necessary part of
>travel time.
> 
>Purpose of first manned (and womanned too) mission is to set up preliminary
>life support system and support resources for colonization, in-space or
>moon/planetoid based construction of interstellar travel support systems,
>and begin colonization process. The ultimate goal of first, pioneer group
>would be to build on a moon or in space a laser, or a light focusing system,
>or microwave projector (or several of these) massive and powerful enough
>to slow incoming follow-on light sail/sail terran ships, making travel
>to, and if desired from target system possible on regular basis.
> 
>Alternative to sail/fuel or sail/starbrake ships would be the argosey -
>tradewinds concept with a computerized detachable outer sail - wich would
>be preferrable since initially this would aid in acceleration of the ship
>and cut down travel time, or a pair of ships being launched at nearly the
>same eventual speed with the first one being a disposable drone with a
>huge reflector sail and not much else, or an unmanned star-breaked cargo
>ship. Or all 3 concepts could be used in combination with an argosey 
detachable
>sail for initial breaking, reduced fuel mass based main breaking, and several
>years of star breaking, and finally fuel breaking again by melting the
>sail itself.  

I'm not clear what you mean by "an argosey detachable sail"?


 
> 
>MISSION 1 - 
>Preliminary probe - fuel/sail, sail/starbreak, sail/fuel/starbreak
>Mission - basic rough extrasolar star system planetary environment and
>resources exploration - ie planets, moons present, and their composition,
>gravity, surface resources, atmosphere if any. Purpose is to ascertain
>weather solar system is suitable for colonization. 
>
>Mission profile of preliminary probe - main communications and observation
>satellite slows using RAIR, (I like my steak rair), solar sails in reverse,
>and starbreake - star light/ magnetism, and gravity breaking to enter outer
>or medium distance orbit of system star, staying at speed that is both
>manegeable, for observation and rapid but manegeable flybys of planetary
>systems, allowing it to ascertain class, basic size, gravity, atmosphere,
>and if has atmosphere surface conditions status, of planets and their moons,
>possibly composition of stellar bodies based on weight and behavior, and
>detect asteroid concentrations, but also a speed wich allows reasonably
>short duration cruises around target solar system. (you don’t want to wait
>50 years for a probe to arrive in the target system than wait a decade
>for it to crawl  every time from planet to planet, a fast enough speed
>would have to be maintained to travel to any point in the star system in
>a maximum of 18 months, say clear across
> entire diameter of furthest orbit in 18 
>months if necessary, but really a working intra system speed requiring
>only months to flyby different planets) 
> 
>Satellites and microsatelites can be detached and slowed down with retro/
>exploration-scanning laser, giving them a large portion of the solar sail
>- if still available to do so, for slower flybys, or two component satellites
>with one part making a high speed impact vaporizing part of surface and
>other ascertaining dust cloud, and size and mass of debree, cloud created
>to estimate surface composition. 
> 
>Laser used for satellite breaking can be dually used to scan a larger swath
>of territory 
>increasing probe sensor or ‘vision’ range and thus time to gather data
>and data accuracy, 
>also highly useful in detecting smaller bodies like asteroid concentrations.
>This would aid 
>the probe in gathering accurate data in spite of high flyby speed by planets.
>
> 
>Probe load out. 80 - 200 tonnes including instruments, power system, command
>module (‘brain’), RAIR manuver/breake engine, shield generators, 
communications
>dish, retro and exploration laser, repair and manegement bots (remote 
controlled
>by central computer to repair sail or help take it, and grind it down),
>additional load of 2,3 -7 maybe even 10 satellites, and microsatellites
>including impact reckon satellites. Maximum load out of 10 satellites,
>20 microsatellites. Observation satellites may come in light versions of
>2-300 kg being capable of being slowed to speed for relatively slow flybyes
>of planets, or heavy versions 1-2 tonnes that take more time to slow or
>remain at faster speeds, micro satellites under 100 kg that can be 
significantly
>slowed, and even air braked, or used for impacts on planets to test 
composition,
>or for atmospheric probing, and even bounce landings on low grav moons,
>or parachute landings on 
>mars-like planets. 
> 
>Satellite Loadout weight 
>6 heavyer satellites, at 2 tonnes each, 12 tonnes total, 
>4 lighter satellites at half tonne each, 2 tonnes total, 
>20 - 100 kg microsatellites - 2 tones total., 16 tonnes. 
>
>Probe weight 220 tonnes dry weight max loaded. 
> 
>Assuming worse case scenario that probe can only operate in fuel/sail mode
>and will grind down it’s laser or microwave sails (made of lithium) to
>fuel a slow down to stellar orbit, and will cruise at 1/3 light speed to
>target, and engines operate at a near-future realisticly achievable specific
>impulse of 1,000,000, or cruises at 1/6 light speed at it will have to
>carry at
> 
>1/6 light  -  147 to 1 fuel/mass ratio    -    32,340 tonnes of  fuel.
>1/3 light  -  22,000 to 1 fuel/mass ratio - 4,840,000 tonnes of fuel.
> 
>a ship with 1,500,000 specific impulse and weighing more 520 tonnes for
>more advanced engines
> 
>1/6 light - 27:1 ratio    -  14,040 tonnes of fuel -  total weight 14,580
>tonnes
>1/3 light - 785 : 1 ratio - 408,200 tonnes of fuel 
> 
>a ship with 2,000,000 specific impulse and weighing 920 tonnes with even
>better engines
> 
>1/6   - 12:1 - 11,040 tonnes of fuel - total weight 11,960 tonnes 12,000
>tonnes would take 500 earth launches to orbit at current estimated average
>cargo rocket 24 tonne launch capibility.  this would be the best option
>within the realistically achievable, but in the near furture somewhat 
unlikely
>standard of achiveable engine design. 
> 
>1/3   - 148:1 -136,160 tonnes of fuel -
> 
> 
>
>MISSION 2
>VERY MINIMAL MANNED MISSION OUTLOOK
> 
>Very basic 2 person generational manned colonization mission requirements

This is really untenable.  The ships would need a VERY large crew to support 
the ships, and to manage any usefull missions in the starsystems.  I think at 
least you need hundreds of folks.  Think of the hundreds of thousands of folks 
needed for the Apollo or Gemini missions.  Scaling that to a handfull is 
rather impractical so soon.  So I'm pretty soon you need a FAR larger craft.

We went into this in detail in the grups past corespondence.



>:
>A ship with 2,000,000 specific impulse break engine and weighing 7,500
>tonnes -
>Breakdown - 1,700 tonnes 85 / 20 tonne modules for life support and mission
>critical equipment, 50 modules for life support and 35 for landers and
>very basic equipment - ie most complex systems of a chemical refinery,
>minimal small scale dual use asteroid/planetoid mining equipment (think
>15-16 heavy hand tools and a couple larger drill machines), small scale
>refinery refining materials in 50-70 kg size or cubic meter size loads,
>providing suitable refined raw materials for building machines, and a good
>and redundantly supplyed machine shop for building additional manufacturing
>resources and ship spare parts. And an optimistic 5,800 tonnes for break
>engines and support structure.
> 
>1/6   - 12:1 - 90,000 tonnes of fuel - total weight 97,500 tonnes 100,000
>tonnes would take 5000 earth launches at current circa 20 tonne launch
>capibility, and 50 years to orbit it all with a hereto unachieved, and
>sustained 100 heavy rocket launches or 2-300 reusable orbital vehicle 
launches
>per year for 50 years  employing a guesstimated work force of 10,000,000
>people to gather raw materials, manufacture parts, rocket fuel, maintain
>lauch facilities, and build rockets, or maintain and continuallz revamp
>reusable launch vehicles and ship systems sustained, this not factoring
>in the support system and the lunar work force needed to build a huge lunar,
>and possibly several near-sun laser or microwawe facilityes at the ready
>to initiate acceleration. The lunar launch facilityes, would, with earth
>support infrastructure, to maintain minimum critical supply, and life support
>cargo drops for lunar, and space based personell, - the work force creating
>laser or microwave
> facilityes/systems, minimg raw materials,refining them and machining 
necessary
>equipment, parts, and space and lunar support personell feeding work force,
>maintaining support systems, ferrying cargo, parts, raw materials, and
>maintaining transport systems, - would require an additional 10 million,
>to 15 million people. 
>It would take a dedicated work force of 25 million people to achieve this
>over a 50 - 80 year period, and since these busy dedicated workers would
>have to be fed, clothed, payed, housed billions of people to support them.

Its not clear that it would require anything like this much to do such a 
mission, but if it did the mission is flatly impossible.  Its virtualy impossible 
to think of any reason that could justify such a expence, or interest any 
nation or group to do such a project.

[ Note internation cooperation actually makes the projects less affordable 
for the individual nations then doint the mission alone.]



>
> 
>The budgetary and support cost of such a project would consume an estimated
>full 1/4 of the total gross national income of the US, Russia, China, India,
>the European Union, Japan, Malasya and other larger states from Oceania,
>Austarlia, and more advanced South American nations, combined - this assuming
>that the US and the EU would fix, and spin up the economies and industry
>of China, Russia, India, some larger South American, and Polynesian states
>to operate at near first-world industrial and technological capacity, as
>a preliminary to even embarking on the project. 
>It can be estimated that nearly every fourth person on planet earth would
>be either directly or indirectly involved in supporting and realising this
>project, - the militaries of Russia, the US,China, and India would largely
>have to be scrapped or reduced to a police force. All this to get2 persons
>to the nearest star system (and forget about the return trip) - to begin
>it’s colonization. It CAN be done (especially if you people go out there
>and elect me secretary general of the UN) but would need a period of 120
>years - just to get going. With future space launch systems the burdens
>would be reduced to 1/3, but such reductions would not be drastic since
>some jobs like space mining, ship construction, launch vehicle maintenance,
>space life support jobs can not be eliminated, it would still employ millions
>of people, and billions of people supporting them.

Obviously such a project would never be done.  Less obviously is that it 
wouldn't cost anything like this much.

I'm assuming you're not serious.



>
>Somewhat lighter but less realistic project would involve -
> 
>A lighter ship with 20 life support canisters, 30 for landers at 50 modules
>at 20 tonnes, thus 1,000 tonnes and a very optimistic 3,000 tonne engine,
>4,000 tonnes total would 
>take 48,000 tonnes of fuel, and a total weight of 52,000 tonnes 2,000 earth
>launches, 30 years, with lunar facilityes at the ready.
>
>UNLESS STAR BREAKING WERE MADE A FEASIBLE REALITY  - than a 10,000 or with
>sail 15,000 tonne sail vessel could take off with no fuel, and lesser lunar
>facilityes.
> 
> 
>
>MISSION 2 
>STANDARD MISSION OUTLOOK
>
>Load out16 crew members and genetic material storage for genetically healthy
>population sustainment.

No known or theorized technology could do this.




>
>2 dual purpose heavy shuttles for light atmosphere and vacuum
> 
>2 dual purpose light shuttles for light atmosphere and vacuum
> 
>2 medium remote pilot-capable rovers capable of transporting exploratory
>drilling equipment to find suitable mining sites on moons or low-grav Mars
>like planets
> 
>? satellites
>
>Exploratory drill equipment.
>
>Asteroid mining equipment - grinders.
>
>Moon and light grav planet surface mining equipment (like tunneling machines
>only lighter, tougher, and smaller)
>
>Chemical, and water and air refinery - chemical processing factory.
>
>Full machine shop factory on ship and deployable, with spares of critical
>equipment in case shuttle crashes.
>
>Deployable foundry.
>
>Deployable hab construction equipment
>
>On board or compact buildable Microchip construction lab - or a large supply
>of chips (not the kind you eat with dip).
>
>Deployable energy facilityes - unless shuttle engines could be used
>
>(and sandwiches)
>
>Haven’t even bothered to estimate weight of load out, ship, and fuel -
>but you can bet your derrier this would break the bank on old terra. 
> 
> 
>MISSION PRIORITYES FOR PIONEER MISSION
> 
>Mine minerals, additional fuel, and water/oxygen from asteroids if possible,
>and if not minerals than definitely at least water, and it would be important
>to gather aditional fuel if possible, if manufacturing metals can not be
>found
> 
>If not possible land on a moon or light grav planetoid to mine.
> 
>Build additional: 
> 
>machine shop equipment, (it would suck if the machines that make the spare
>parts break down, with no replacement for them, or the shuttle crashed
>with the replacements right than)
> 
>basic habs and expanded facilityes - reinforce presence
> 
>rovers and shuttles if on moon, 
> 
>additional manufacturing, mining and foundry equipment
> 
>power supply
> 
>buildings - habs and life support, and facilityes for manufacture
> 
>more construction and manufacturing equipment, 
> 
>more shuttles if on moon
> 
>2-3 medium intrasystem ships
> 
>microwave breake system and acceleration system for incoming ships.
> 
>additional ships and space facilityes
> 
>landers for heavyer grav. planets/moons with atmosphere.
> 
> 
>Ps. -
>Kel, are you out to invade the Klingon homeworld? 
> 
>... Heavy rovers travel in packs and can act as a mobile base.  Each heavy
>rover or rover 
>trailer are about the size of a short, very wide greyhound bus.  Can float
>and self propel 
>in normal water. (they can also run over Klingons) They look like a very
>large Armored personnel carrier. (and are armored and carry a crew of 5
>heavily armed security teams and solenoid cannons) Self protection armament
>of two independent self targeting 30mm solenoid gun turrets.... 

More worried about finding big preditors.  

Explorers always go heavily armed -- at least the ones that make it back do.

;)


> 
>(I knew it - something was fishy about the battlecruiser explorer)
> 
>And Pps - I'm delighted to see I'm not the only one who flunked spelling
>in the 5th :) (J/K) (you'r spelling is as bad as mine.)

;)


> 
>And ppps how does one join your group ?

I'm afraid the group pretty much died a couple years back.  Folks ran out of 
ideas.