From VM Mon Jul 8 16:03:26 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["914" "Monday" "8" "July" "2002" "15:43:36" "-0700" "Curtis Manges" "clmanges@yahoo.com" nil "22" "" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 914 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g68MhbfK006044 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 15:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g68MhbPr006039 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 15:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web13602.mail.yahoo.com (web13602.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.113]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with SMTP id g68MhafK006023 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 15:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020708224336.15356.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.148.24.201] by web13602.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 08 Jul 2002 15:43:36 PDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-803884910-1026168216=:15053" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Curtis Manges From: Curtis Manges Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 15:43:36 -0700 (PDT) --0-803884910-1026168216=:15053 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii another nice image for wallpaper: http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/08jul_underfoot.htm?list503653 get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access --0-803884910-1026168216=:15053 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

another nice image for wallpaper:

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/08jul_underfoot.htm?list503653



get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com



Do You Yahoo!?
New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access --0-803884910-1026168216=:15053-- From VM Wed Jul 10 13:39:01 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2007" "Wednesday" "10" "July" "2002" "15:18:55" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "47" "starship-design: Farther and Faster out of this World: Glenn Demonstrates High-Power Electric Propulsion" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2007 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g6AKKGak012630 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:20:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g6AKKGFc012629 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:20:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g6AKKFak012618 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:20:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from user121.net241.fl.sprint-hsd.net ([64.45.208.121] helo=broadsword) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17SNwd-0006AX-00 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:20:15 -0700 Message-ID: <000601c2284f$04870480$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design List \(E-mail\)" Subject: starship-design: Farther and Faster out of this World: Glenn Demonstrates High-Power Electric Propulsion Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:18:55 -0500 02-050 For Release: July 9, 2002 Katherine K. Martin Media Relations Office 216/433-2406 katherine.martin@grc.nasa.gov Lori J. Rachul Media Relations Office 216/433-8806 lori.j.rachul@grc.nasa.gov Farther and Faster out of this World: Glenn Demonstrates High-Power Electric Propulsion A giant leap toward enabling high power electric propulsion was recently demonstrated. With power levels up to 72 kW and nearly 3 Newtons of thrust, NASA's Glenn Research Center, Cleveland, has designed, built and successfully tested a 50 kW-class Hall thruster. Designated the NASA-457M, this new Hall thruster has shown more than a factor of ten increase in the power and thrust levels over state-of-the-art Hall systems. "This accomplishment strengthens Glenn's world class leadership in Hall thruster research and development," asserts Robert Jankovsky, Hall thruster team lead. Such a high power propulsion device will revolutionize the next generation of spacecraft; halving launch costs for ambitious NASA missions, enabling future NASA missions to other planets, and more than doubling commercial payload masses to geostationary orbit. Applications for the Hall thruster include moving heavy payloads and more rapid travel into outer space. When compared to ion thrusters, Hall thrusters are of greater benefit to near-Earth orbit missions, because they have greater levels of thrust to counter the forces of gravity of celestial bodies, like the Earth. The NASA-457M is the largest Hall thruster ever built and tested. This effort has significantly enhanced understanding of Hall thruster scaling and will lead to the use of high power Hall thruster propulsion in future space missions. Results and findings of the Hall thruster's recent tests were discussed yesterday at the 38th American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics Joint Propulsion Conference in Indianapolis. A photograph of the NASA-457M Hall thruster is available online: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/PAO/pressrel/2002/02-050addm.html From VM Thu Jul 11 16:06:56 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["933" "Thursday" "11" "July" "2002" "16:02:19" "-0700" "Curtis Manges" "clmanges@yahoo.com" nil "28" "starship-design: russians plan mars mission" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 933 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g6BN2dak011351 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g6BN2ctc011346 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web13603.mail.yahoo.com (web13603.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.114]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with SMTP id g6BN2bak011334 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020711230219.27926.qmail@web13603.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.148.24.51] by web13603.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:02:19 PDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1319567298-1026428539=:26329" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Curtis Manges From: Curtis Manges Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design Subject: starship-design: russians plan mars mission Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:02:19 -0700 (PDT) --0-1319567298-1026428539=:26329 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii check it out -- http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29564-2002Jul5.html keep looking up, Curtis get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access --0-1319567298-1026428539=:26329 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

check it out --

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29564-2002Jul5.html

keep looking up,

Curtis



get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com



Do You Yahoo!?
New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access --0-1319567298-1026428539=:26329-- From VM Mon Jul 15 11:37:42 2002 Content-Length: 2037 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2037" "Thursday" "11" "July" "2002" "21:07:20" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "57" "starship-design: Virus Warning" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil "starship-design: Virus Warning" nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2037 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g6C28fak005088 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 19:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g6C28eXX005087 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 19:08:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g6C28eak005082 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 19:08:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from user121.net241.fl.sprint-hsd.net ([64.45.208.121] helo=broadsword) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17SprL-0006Hf-00 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 19:08:39 -0700 Message-ID: <002201c22948$dbb372f0$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0023_01C2291E.F2DD6AF0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20020711230219.27926.qmail@web13603.mail.yahoo.com> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "'starship-design'" Subject: starship-design: Virus Warning Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:07:20 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C2291E.F2DD6AF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Someone on the Starship Design list has Klez. I just received an email purporting to be from Ben Franchuk, which only means that whomever is infected has Ben in their email addresses file, and of course, myself also. Kind of limits it to Starship Design. Everyone please check your systems. L. Parker sometime Sysadmin, Chief Cook and Bottlewasher cacaphony.net ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C2291E.F2DD6AF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Someone on=20 the Starship Design list has Klez. I just received an email purporting = to be=20 from Ben Franchuk, which only means that whomever is infected has Ben in = their=20 email addresses file, and of course, myself also. Kind of limits it to = Starship=20 Design.
 
Everyone=20 please check your systems.
 
L.=20 Parker
sometime=20 Sysadmin, Chief Cook and Bottlewasher
cacaphony.net
------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C2291E.F2DD6AF0-- From VM Sun Jul 21 16:47:46 2002 Content-Length: 9401 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["9401" "Saturday" "20" "July" "2002" "13:51:31" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "151" "starship-design: The Spacefaring Web: 2.11 Writing in the Infrared" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil "starship-design: The Spacefaring Web: 2.11 Writing in the Infrared" nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g6KIqvaD015702 for ; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:52:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g6KIqvNU015701 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:52:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g6KIquaD015695 for ; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:52:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from user121.net241.fl.sprint-hsd.net ([64.45.208.121] helo=broadsword) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17VzLb-0003LG-00 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:52:55 -0700 Message-ID: <002701c2301e$772fab00$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design List \(E-mail\)" Subject: starship-design: The Spacefaring Web: 2.11 Writing in the Infrared Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 13:51:31 -0500 The Spacefaring Web: 2.11 Writing in the Infrared by John Carter McKnight Scottsdale - Jul 04, 2002 Ideas and technologies that were recently only the wildest speculation now are hotly, even violently, debated worldwide. But not the prospect of a spacefaring future. While many address opportunities in space, their work seems to fall into a cultural blind spot, present but unseen. It's as if they were writing in the infrared: something is there, discernable by anyone sufficiently attuned. The world at large, though, literally cannot see the writing on the wall. There is a chasm between innovation and adoption. On the one side there may be a good idea whose time hasn't come (or a harebrained notion that'll never amount to anything - they look the same from a distance). On the other side lies ubiquitous application of the brilliant-but-seemingly-inevitable fruits of the inventor's genius. How does an idea go from invisible to inevitable? Some say that the innovation has to be honed to elegance before adoption. While the fallacy here should be obvious to anyone who has ever used a personal computer or a VCR, this argument has persisted. We haven't gone to Mars, the argument goes, because rockets are kludgy; the day we have nuclear-thermal propulsion the colony ships will leave. At one of the early Case For Mars conferences, there was a marvelously thought-provoking presentation entitled "Romans To Mars." The author demonstrated that it would have been marginally possible for the Romans to have discovered and settled the New World with staggered convoys of galleys, but at immense cost. The argument was that, since using an adequate but suboptimal technology was prohibitively expensive, rationally, the settlement of the New World would have to wait upon the advent of the deep-draught sailing ship. By analogy, Mars must await advanced propulsion. That argument fails on several grounds. First, optimal sailing technology was not necessary. A rational cost-benefit analysis might have sent Roman galleys to Mexico. Romans had been great commercial explorers as late as Caligula's time; a later emperor might rationally have chosen to revive the enterprise in hopes of bringing new wealth into an over-extended, cash-strapped empire. Likewise, the Elizabethan decision to explore and settle North America was less technologically favorable and a greater gamble. Rome had the resources and discipline to send a fleet into the unknown; Elizabeth's backing of exploration by her quasi-pirates was a high-stakes gamble by a third-rate power with, even by the standards of the time, second-rate naval technology. A crewman on one of Henry Hudson's or Martin Frobisher's ships likely would have traded a limb for a berth on a Nova Roman galley, let alone a bare-bones Mars Direct hab. Elegance is not likely to develop before an innovation suddenly appears blindingly obvious. In the technological realm, an invention typically goes from kludge to cool later in its lifetime, only after becoming widespread. The early market entrants make a killing selling the Mark One; the laggards can only turn a profit by cutting production costs, streamlining design, offering advanced features to a market accustomed to the basic model and ready for more. I won't shell out $200,000 for a Lamborghini if I still like my horse and buggy just fine. A couple hundred for a Model T, maybe. Once I'm sold on driving, then I'm ready for something sleeker, faster, redder, and with cupholders. Sellers of computer networks may recall this mindset among corporate customers in the 1980s. With ideas, elegance won't get you across the chasm either. Copernicus didn't enter the history books because he was the first person to look at the tangled mess of Ptolemaic cosmology and see the beautiful simplicity of a heliocentric alternative. Darwin was not the first to look at the breadth of physical traits and conceive an active mechanism for their evolution: we'd been selectively breeding plants and animals for millennia. Da Vinci's notebooks epitomize writing in the infrared: if elegance were sufficient, the Borgia Popes would have flown to church in helicopters. No, "invention is the easy bit," as the Economist Technology Quarterly (June 23, 2001, p.3) observed. "It matters little whether some exciting new technology has suddenly become available. If the market timing is wrong, the innovation will most assuredly flounder." The Economist's editor draws a distinction between need - would it be useful? and demand - will anybody pay for it? Only demand gets you across the chasm. This explains the VCR: the demand for home movies and timeshifted TV programs was so great that the kludgy VCR sold like hotcakes. Twenty-five years later TiVO and the DVD player finally provide an elegant means of filling that demand. Ptolemy's teachings were tied to the authority of the medieval Church: when that authority was unquestionable, there was no prospect of a heretical heliocentrism catching on. Come the Renaissance, when "market conditions" were ripe for free-thinking, an elegant idea could gobble market- (or mind-) share. Why isn't asteroid mining on the agenda at the World Economic Forum? Why aren't protesters in the street denouncing Martian terraforming plans? Only with demand does opposition come forth. Nobody fights either the impossible or the inevitable, only the likely. Borderless commerce and genetic engineering have vigorous champions and enemies: we see those innovations as likely. A spacefaring civilization is needed but not demanded. It is not seen as likely; it is not seen at all. But what creates demand? One theory, historical determinism, seems more descriptive than analytical. Science fiction writers have long spoken of "railroading time" - when cultural forces align for railroads to be ubiquitous, there will be railroads. When it's time for evolution, Darwin and Wallace will submit simultaneous papers. Determinism is a nice refutation of the "elegant technology" argument: if there's a readily-perceived demand, any number of people will cobble together something to fill it, as witnessed by the variety of early bicycle and airplane designs, before those technologies matured to elegance. Yet determinism can only explain after the fact: it doesn't account for why railroads took off when they did, rather than a decade earlier or later. Nor is it a guide to whether the next decade will be "human genetic engineering time" or "nanotech time" - or, at last, spacefaring time. The other approach to causation is the "great man" theory. Beloved of space advocates who point to Henry the Navigator and John F. Kennedy, this claims that an idea crosses the chasm into ubiquity when somebody big enough grabs it and hurls it. It's true that new industries arise when one or a few people see a newly-arisen demand and strike first to fill it. Marconi with radio, Rockefeller with petroleum products, Gates with operating systems - the early bird does get the worm. With ideas, a bold promoter matters: Huxley did as much for evolution as Darwin; planetary astronomy was advanced more by Percival Lowell's popularizing as by his critics' meticulous accuracy. The key phrase above, though, was "see a newly arisen demand." The "great man" only rises to dominate an existing, visible market. A revolutionary leader can only come to power when there's a market for revolution - otherwise, his head ends up on a pike outside the palace. Likewise, Kennedy didn't create an American demand for a space-race spectacular - that's the logic error committed by the "next Apollo" advocates who invoke his name. As Kim Stanley Robinson has observed ("A Sensitive Dependence," in Remaking History and Other Stories, p.446), "the great man theory considers particles; historical materialism considers waves. The wave/particle duality, confirmed many times by experiment, assures us that neither can be the complete truth. Neither theory will serve as the covering law." People do shape events, individually as well as in the aggregate, creating those "tipping points" that move innovation into exploitation. Innovation, promotion and demand are intertwined, feeding back upon each other in complex ways. No one alone is sufficient, nor can any one be slighted. Von Braun went from dreaming to advocacy to building moon rockets. Born promoters have found inspiration in the innovations of others and spread the word: Saul of Tarsus got Christianity across the chasm, as Lenin did Marxism and Zubrin in-situ resource utilization. Had Tsiolkovskii and Goddard not pressed on despite being ignored, Korolev and von Braun could never have gotten us into space. Ray Bradbury considers a lifetime of space advocacy unwasted (Mars and the Mind of Man, p.133): "If I seem to be beating a dead horse again and again, I must protest: No! I am beating, again and again, living man to keep him awake and move his limbs and jump his mind." Fanciful scheming, crackpot theorizing and howling in the wilderness may not alone change today's reality. Today, it's not spacefaring time. But tomorrow it might be. When that tomorrow comes, it will be because, thanks to the subtle actions of innovators and advocates, we awaken and open our eyes to discover that we can see, there on the wall, The Case for Mars, The High Frontier and so many other works once written in the infrared. From VM Sun Jul 21 16:47:47 2002 Content-Length: 833 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["833" "Saturday" "20" "July" "2002" "15:24:05" "-0600" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "22" "Re: starship-design: The Spacefaring Web: 2.11 Writing in the Infrared" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil "starship-design: The Spacefaring Web: 2.11 Writing in the Infrared" nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g6KLROaD011900 for ; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:27:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g6KLRORD011899 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:27:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bach.ccinet.ab.ca (bach.ccinet.ab.ca [198.161.96.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g6KLRNaD011884 for ; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (gc-jet-199.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.199]) by bach.ccinet.ab.ca (8.12.5/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g6KLRxjo092299 for ; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 15:27:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca) Message-ID: <3D39D4F5.5000001@jetnet.ab.ca> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.1a) Gecko/20020611 X-Accept-Language: en,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <002701c2301e$772fab00$0201a8c0@broadsword> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu CC: "Starship-Design List (E-mail)" Subject: Re: starship-design: The Spacefaring Web: 2.11 Writing in the Infrared Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 15:24:05 -0600 > Today, it's not > spacefaring time. But tomorrow it might be. When that tomorrow comes, it > will be because, thanks to the subtle actions of innovators and advocates, > we awaken and open our eyes to discover that we can see, there on the wall, > The Case for Mars, The High Frontier and so many other works once written in > the infrared. > The time will come when people believe that they can get to space. Projects like "The X prize" mean well but give rewards to the 'first' but not people working together. Getting to space can't be a race, but rather cooperation of skills and brains and $$$. BTW http://users.bigpond.net.au/surfacesrendered/MCSEnter.html Space the way Space Travel was ment to Be. Moon -- 1963 Mars -- 1968 -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From VM Sun Jul 21 16:47:47 2002 Content-Length: 11141 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["11141" "Saturday" "20" "July" "2002" "22:00:59" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "359" "Re: starship-design: The Spacefaring Web: 2.11 Writing in the Infrared" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil "starship-design: The Spacefaring Web: 2.11 Writing in the Infrared" nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g6L21BaD024626 for ; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 19:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g6L21Aae024625 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 19:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo-d08.mx.aol.com (imo-d08.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.40]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g6L219aD024610 for ; Sat, 20 Jul 2002 19:01:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.21.) id 4.190.a1622cb (4185); Sat, 20 Jul 2002 22:00:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <190.a1622cb.2a6b6fdb@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: lparker@cacaphony.net, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: The Spacefaring Web: 2.11 Writing in the Infrared Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 22:00:59 EDT A interesting, if wandering, essay. In general I think the bottom line is things (tech, gadgets, colonization) are adopted when they offer something people want, more then what we'ld have to give up to get them. Esentially a economic / marketing view. We don't want to pay for "plant the flag" specticals like Apollo, and can't find any way to practicalyu use space. I.E. theirs no mineral out there worth the cost to return, no place with realestate interesting or profitable enough to intrest us in colonizing it. If their were cost competative resources, or if Mars looked like Barsom or a Trek world, we'ld be out in force. So we need to eaither lower the cost a lot, or find something more valuble. Look at how fast the Comsat market exploded. Or even how seriously O'Nielian plans for Space colonies and power sats were looked into back in the energy crisis era. They looked to fill a needed void, so we were quick to jump on them. just as other bissar things like deep ocean / arctic oil rigs. Or contnent wraping internat infastructures. Whats space really able to offer us now? What would it take to make what it can do, worth the cost to us? Kelly In a message dated 7/20/02 2:53:26 PM, lparker@cacaphony.net writes: >The Spacefaring Web: 2.11 > >Writing in the Infrared > > > >by John Carter McKnight > >Scottsdale - Jul 04, 2002 > > > >Ideas and technologies that were recently only the wildest speculation >now > >are hotly, even violently, debated worldwide. But not the prospect of a > >spacefaring future. While many address opportunities in space, their work > >seems to fall into a cultural blind spot, present but unseen. It's as if > >they were writing in the infrared: something is there, discernable by anyone > >sufficiently attuned. The world at large, though, literally cannot see >the > >writing on the wall. > > > >There is a chasm between innovation and adoption. On the one side there >may > >be a good idea whose time hasn't come (or a harebrained notion that'll >never > >amount to anything - they look the same from a distance). On the other >side > >lies ubiquitous application of the brilliant-but-seemingly-inevitable fruits > >of the inventor's genius. How does an idea go from invisible to inevitable? > > > >Some say that the innovation has to be honed to elegance before adoption. > >While the fallacy here should be obvious to anyone who has ever used a > >personal computer or a VCR, this argument has persisted. We haven't gone >to > >Mars, the argument goes, because rockets are kludgy; the day we have > >nuclear-thermal propulsion the colony ships will leave. > > > >At one of the early Case For Mars conferences, there was a marvelously > >thought-provoking presentation entitled "Romans To Mars." The author > >demonstrated that it would have been marginally possible for the Romans >to > >have discovered and settled the New World with staggered convoys of galleys, > >but at immense cost. The argument was that, since using an adequate but > >suboptimal technology was prohibitively expensive, rationally, the > >settlement of the New World would have to wait upon the advent of the > >deep-draught sailing ship. By analogy, Mars must await advanced propulsion. > > > >That argument fails on several grounds. First, optimal sailing technology > >was not necessary. A rational cost-benefit analysis might have sent Roman > >galleys to Mexico. Romans had been great commercial explorers as late as > >Caligula's time; a later emperor might rationally have chosen to revive >the > >enterprise in hopes of bringing new wealth into an over-extended, > >cash-strapped empire. Likewise, the Elizabethan decision to explore and > >settle North America was less technologically favorable and a greater > >gamble. Rome had the resources and discipline to send a fleet into the > >unknown; Elizabeth's backing of exploration by her quasi-pirates was a > >high-stakes gamble by a third-rate power with, even by the standards of >the > >time, second-rate naval technology. A crewman on one of Henry Hudson's >or > >Martin Frobisher's ships likely would have traded a limb for a berth on >a > >Nova Roman galley, let alone a bare-bones Mars Direct hab. > > > >Elegance is not likely to develop before an innovation suddenly appears > >blindingly obvious. In the technological realm, an invention typically >goes > >from kludge to cool later in its lifetime, only after becoming widespread. > >The early market entrants make a killing selling the Mark One; the laggards > >can only turn a profit by cutting production costs, streamlining design, > >offering advanced features to a market accustomed to the basic model and > >ready for more. I won't shell out $200,000 for a Lamborghini if I still >like > >my horse and buggy just fine. A couple hundred for a Model T, maybe. Once > >I'm sold on driving, then I'm ready for something sleeker, faster, redder, > >and with cupholders. Sellers of computer networks may recall this mindset > >among corporate customers in the 1980s. > > > >With ideas, elegance won't get you across the chasm either. Copernicus > >didn't enter the history books because he was the first person to look >at > >the tangled mess of Ptolemaic cosmology and see the beautiful simplicity >of > >a heliocentric alternative. Darwin was not the first to look at the breadth > >of physical traits and conceive an active mechanism for their evolution: > >we'd been selectively breeding plants and animals for millennia. Da Vinci's > >notebooks epitomize writing in the infrared: if elegance were sufficient, > >the Borgia Popes would have flown to church in helicopters. > > > >No, "invention is the easy bit," as the Economist Technology Quarterly >(June > >23, 2001, p.3) observed. "It matters little whether some exciting new > >technology has suddenly become available. If the market timing is wrong, >the > >innovation will most assuredly flounder." The Economist's editor draws >a > >distinction between need - would it be useful? and demand - will anybody >pay > >for it? Only demand gets you across the chasm. This explains the VCR: the > >demand for home movies and timeshifted TV programs was so great that the > >kludgy VCR sold like hotcakes. Twenty-five years later TiVO and the DVD > >player finally provide an elegant means of filling that demand. Ptolemy's > >teachings were tied to the authority of the medieval Church: when that > >authority was unquestionable, there was no prospect of a heretical > >heliocentrism catching on. Come the Renaissance, when "market conditions" > >were ripe for free-thinking, an elegant idea could gobble market- (or mind-) > >share. > > > >Why isn't asteroid mining on the agenda at the World Economic Forum? Why > >aren't protesters in the street denouncing Martian terraforming plans? >Only > >with demand does opposition come forth. Nobody fights either the impossible > >or the inevitable, only the likely. Borderless commerce and genetic > >engineering have vigorous champions and enemies: we see those innovations >as > >likely. A spacefaring civilization is needed but not demanded. It is not > >seen as likely; it is not seen at all. > > > >But what creates demand? One theory, historical determinism, seems more > >descriptive than analytical. Science fiction writers have long spoken of > >"railroading time" - when cultural forces align for railroads to be > >ubiquitous, there will be railroads. When it's time for evolution, Darwin > >and Wallace will submit simultaneous papers. Determinism is a nice > >refutation of the "elegant technology" argument: if there's a > >readily-perceived demand, any number of people will cobble together > >something to fill it, as witnessed by the variety of early bicycle and > >airplane designs, before those technologies matured to elegance. Yet > >determinism can only explain after the fact: it doesn't account for why > >railroads took off when they did, rather than a decade earlier or later. >Nor > >is it a guide to whether the next decade will be "human genetic engineering > >time" or "nanotech time" - or, at last, spacefaring time. > > > >The other approach to causation is the "great man" theory. Beloved of space > >advocates who point to Henry the Navigator and John F. Kennedy, this claims > >that an idea crosses the chasm into ubiquity when somebody big enough grabs > >it and hurls it. It's true that new industries arise when one or a few > >people see a newly-arisen demand and strike first to fill it. Marconi with > >radio, Rockefeller with petroleum products, Gates with operating systems >- > >the early bird does get the worm. With ideas, a bold promoter matters: > >Huxley did as much for evolution as Darwin; planetary astronomy was advanced > >more by Percival Lowell's popularizing as by his critics' meticulous > >accuracy. The key phrase above, though, was "see a newly arisen demand." >The > >"great man" only rises to dominate an existing, visible market. A > >revolutionary leader can only come to power when there's a market for > >revolution - otherwise, his head ends up on a pike outside the palace. > >Likewise, Kennedy didn't create an American demand for a space-race > >spectacular - that's the logic error committed by the "next Apollo" > >advocates who invoke his name. > > > >As Kim Stanley Robinson has observed ("A Sensitive Dependence," in Remaking > >History and Other Stories, p.446), "the great man theory considers > >particles; historical materialism considers waves. The wave/particle > >duality, confirmed many times by experiment, assures us that neither can >be > >the complete truth. Neither theory will serve as the covering law." People > >do shape events, individually as well as in the aggregate, creating those > >"tipping points" that move innovation into exploitation. > > > >Innovation, promotion and demand are intertwined, feeding back upon each > >other in complex ways. No one alone is sufficient, nor can any one be > >slighted. Von Braun went from dreaming to advocacy to building moon rockets. > >Born promoters have found inspiration in the innovations of others and > >spread the word: Saul of Tarsus got Christianity across the chasm, as Lenin > >did Marxism and Zubrin in-situ resource utilization. > > > >Had Tsiolkovskii and Goddard not pressed on despite being ignored, Korolev > >and von Braun could never have gotten us into space. Ray Bradbury considers > >a lifetime of space advocacy unwasted (Mars and the Mind of Man, p.133): >"If > >I seem to be beating a dead horse again and again, I must protest: No! >I am > >beating, again and again, living man to keep him awake and move his limbs > >and jump his mind." Fanciful scheming, crackpot theorizing and howling >in > >the wilderness may not alone change today's reality. Today, it's not > >spacefaring time. But tomorrow it might be. When that tomorrow comes, it > >will be because, thanks to the subtle actions of innovators and advocates, > >we awaken and open our eyes to discover that we can see, there on the wall, > >The Case for Mars, The High Frontier and so many other works once written >in > >the infrared. From VM Mon Jul 22 17:12:09 2002 Content-Length: 780 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["780" "Monday" "22" "July" "2002" "17:10:57" "-0700" "Curtis Manges" "clmanges@yahoo.com" nil "28" "starship-design: harmless diversion" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g6N0AxaD015276 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 17:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g6N0Axo8015274 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 17:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web13609.mail.yahoo.com (web13609.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.9]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with SMTP id g6N0AwaD015269 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 17:10:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020723001057.79217.qmail@web13609.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.148.24.79] by web13609.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 22 Jul 2002 17:10:57 PDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-903380311-1027383057=:79117" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Curtis Manges From: Curtis Manges Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design Subject: starship-design: harmless diversion Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 17:10:57 -0700 (PDT) --0-903380311-1027383057=:79117 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii this looks interesting . . . http://www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/vplanet.html keep looking up, curtis get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better --0-903380311-1027383057=:79117 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

this looks interesting . . .

http://www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/vplanet.html

keep looking up,

curtis



get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com



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Health - Feel better, live better --0-903380311-1027383057=:79117-- From VM Tue Jul 30 17:06:33 2002 Content-Length: 488 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["488" "Wednesday" "31" "July" "2002" "00:59:08" "+0100" "Peter \\(Sci\\)" "scifox@asylum30.freeserve.co.uk" nil "15" "starship-design: Busy busy" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g6V027Ho026433 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g6V027hd026432 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.172]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g6V025Ho026412 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-3559.antelope.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.134.29.231] helo=kat) by cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17ZgwC-0000RX-00 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Wed, 31 Jul 2002 01:02:03 +0100 Message-ID: <001801c23825$1bc2eca0$e71d86d9@kat> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Peter \(Sci\)" From: "Peter \(Sci\)" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship Design" Subject: starship-design: Busy busy Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 00:59:08 +0100 Last couple of weeks, I've been talking to a few friends. This has resulted in much design work on my intergrated ship network (the Kitten Modules), and the associated peripherals. I also got a name dropped on me, and was wondering if it was familier to anyone on this list? The Association Of Autonomous Astronauts, or the AAA. Anyone? Checking in, Sci PS: Anyone know what sort of componant density is needed on an IC to prevent radiation-damage? (how do you rad-harden a chip?) From VM Wed Jul 31 10:41:58 2002 Content-Length: 998 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["998" "Tuesday" "30" "July" "2002" "19:18:59" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "35" "RE: starship-design: Busy busy" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g6V0KWHo003495 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:20:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g6V0KWtl003491 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:20:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g6V0KVHo003477 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from user121.net241.fl.sprint-hsd.net ([64.45.208.121] helo=broadsword) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17ZhE5-0004hD-00; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:20:29 -0700 Message-ID: <002301c23827$de55cc40$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <001801c23825$1bc2eca0$e71d86d9@kat> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "'Peter \(Sci\)'" , "'Starship Design'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Busy busy Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 19:18:59 -0500 It is not a function of component density. It is a combination of grounding, shielding and a different substrate that is not as susceptible to radiation damage. Standard silicon is not very good for this purpose. Lee > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu > [mailto:owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu]On Behalf Of > Peter (Sci) > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 6:59 PM > To: Starship Design > Subject: starship-design: Busy busy > > > Last couple of weeks, I've been talking to a few friends. > This has resulted > in much design work on my intergrated ship network (the > Kitten Modules), and > the associated peripherals. > I also got a name dropped on me, and was wondering if it was > familier to > anyone on this list? > The Association Of Autonomous Astronauts, or the AAA. Anyone? > > Checking in, > > Sci > > > PS: Anyone know what sort of componant density is needed on > an IC to prevent > radiation-damage? (how do you rad-harden a chip?) > > From VM Wed Jul 31 10:41:58 2002 Content-Length: 982 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["982" "Tuesday" "30" "July" "2002" "19:36:48" "-0600" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "29" "Re: starship-design: Busy busy" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g6V1eDHo023821 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g6V1eD20023820 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bach.ccinet.ab.ca (bach.ccinet.ab.ca [198.161.96.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g6V1eBHo023812 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:40:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (gc-jet-195.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.195]) by bach.ccinet.ab.ca (8.12.5/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g6V1e9h1091001 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 19:40:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca) Message-ID: <3D473F30.3000805@jetnet.ab.ca> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.1b) Gecko/20020721 X-Accept-Language: en,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <002301c23827$de55cc40$0201a8c0@broadsword> <3D473EDA.4090800@jetnet.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: Re: starship-design: Busy busy Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 19:36:48 -0600 Ben Franchuk wrote: > L. Parker wrote: > >> It is not a function of component density. It is a combination of >> grounding, >> shielding and a different substrate that is not as susceptible to >> radiation >> damage. Standard silicon is not very good for this purpose. > > >>> PS: Anyone know what sort of componant density is needed on >>> an IC to prevent >>> radiation-damage? (how do you rad-harden a chip?) >> > > I also suspect it has to do with radiation energy levels > and chip speeds and power used. CMOS logic is sensitive > to distructive latchup that radiation could cause, but > I suspect transient errors to be more of a problem in memory. > Most logic nowdays does not have even parity or other forms > of diagnostics trading this all for speed and the ability > to run windows. :( > Get the hardware working and then count on being two computer > generations back for space rated stuff. > Check here for space rated hardware. > http://www.gaisler.com/ > > From VM Mon Aug 5 10:32:51 2002 Content-Length: 2668 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2668" "Sunday" "4" "August" "2002" "21:25:36" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "49" "starship-design: Boeing Internal Report Looks At Propellentless Propulsion" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil "starship-design: Boeing Internal Report Looks At Propellentless Propulsion" nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g752PcHo010219 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 19:25:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g752PcMH010218 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 19:25:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g752PbHo010212 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 19:25:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from user121.net241.fl.sprint-hsd.net ([64.45.208.121] helo=broadsword) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17bXYu-0005kC-00 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Sun, 04 Aug 2002 19:25:36 -0700 Message-ID: <000601c23c27$628723d0$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design List \(E-mail\)" Subject: starship-design: Boeing Internal Report Looks At Propellentless Propulsion Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 21:25:36 -0500 Boeing Internal Report Looks At Propellentless Propulsion A report published July 29 by Jane's Defense Weekly says Boeing has acknowledged it is conducting a variety of anti-gravity experiments that could rewrite the economics of conventional aviation technologies. According to Jane's Defense Weekly (JDW) the research is being done at Boeing's famous Phantom Works facility in Seattle where Boeing is working to gain the services of the Russian scientist Dr Evgeny Podkletnov who claims he has developed anti-gravity devices in Russia and Finland. But with the Russian government starting to realize that many of the greatest treasures of the Soviet era are to be found scattered throughout the country in forgotten science and technology projects, the bureaucracy has begun to clamp down on high technology transfers to the West. A briefing document obtained by JDW says the project is operating under the internal name of GRASP - Gravity Research for Advanced Space Propulsion. This document also sets out what Boeing believes to be at stake, stating: "If gravity modification is real, it will alter the entire aerospace business." Behind the project rests many years of, initially, Russian research, and later on American research at NASA and now Boeing - to investigate 'propellentless propulsion' the politically correct term for anti-gravity machines. Much of the western research has been aimed at testing the validity of Podkletnov's fundamental work with several projects over the years at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center. In tandem, has been the need to examine possible uses of anti-gravity technologies. Conceivably, uses could range from transport both terrestrially and in outer space through fuel-free electricity to powerful directed energy weapons. In fact, one of Podkletnov's claims was that in high-power experiments using a so-called impulse gravity generator he was able to generate a beam of gravity-like energy that exerted an instantaneous force of 1,000g on any object — enough, in theory, to vaporize it, and even more so if the object is moving quickly. According to the JDW report, Boeing recently approached Podkletnov directly, but fell foul of Russian technology transfer controls. The GRASP briefing document cited by Jane's noted that BAE Systems and Lockheed Martin have also contacted Podkletnov "and have some activity in this area". In conclusion the briefing document said additional "classified activities in gravity modification may exist". But moreover, Podkletnov was strongly anti-military and was only wanting to provide assistance if the research was conducted out in the "white world" of open development. From VM Mon Aug 5 10:32:51 2002 Content-Length: 12179 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["12179" "Sunday" "4" "August" "2002" "21:28:18" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "219" "starship-design: A Mass of Inertia" "^From:" nil nil "8" nil "starship-design: A Mass of Inertia" nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g752SLHo010554 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 19:28:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g752SLw8010553 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 19:28:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g752SKHo010546 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 19:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from user121.net241.fl.sprint-hsd.net ([64.45.208.121] helo=broadsword) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17bXbX-0000yd-00 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Sun, 04 Aug 2002 19:28:19 -0700 Message-ID: <000701c23c27$c33c8670$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design List \(E-mail\)" Subject: starship-design: A Mass of Inertia Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 21:28:18 -0500 A Mass of Inertia by Marcus Chown London - Feb. 3, 2001 What is this thing called mass? Pondering this apparently simple question, two scientists have come up with a radical theory that could explain the nature of inertia, abolish gravity and, just possibly, lead to bizarre new forms of spacecraft propulsion. Faced with the same question, you might answer that mass is what makes a loaded shopping trolley hard to get moving -- its inertia. Or, perhaps, that mass is what makes a bag of sugar or a grand piano weigh something. Either way, the origin of mass is one of nature's deepest mysteries. Some particle physicists claim that a hypothetical particle called the Higgs boson gives mass to subatomic particles such as electrons. Late last year, hints that the Higgs really exists were found at CERN, the European centre for particle physics near Geneva. So, does the Higgs explain weight and inertia? The answer is probably no. Wait a minute. How can these physicists claim they have discovered the origin of mass when their proposed mechanism fails to explain the very things that make it what it is? Well, as Bill Clinton might say, it all depends on what you mean by mass. When these particle physicists speak of mass, they are not thinking in terms of inertia or weight. Matter is a concentrated form of energy. It can be changed into other forms of energy and other forms of energy can be changed into matter -- an equivalence embodied in Einstein's famous equation E = mc2. So in this sense, the mass of a subatomic particle is a measure of the amount of energy needed to make it. The Higgs can account for that, at least partly (see "Mass delusion", p 25). "But the Higgs mechanism does not explain why mass, or its energy equivalent, resists motion or reacts to gravity," says Bernard Haisch of the California Institute for Physics and Astrophysics in Palo Alto. He believes instead that inertia and gravity are manifestations of far more familiar effects. When you lift that sack of potatoes or shove your shopping trolley, the forces you feel might be plain old electricity and magnetism. If the forces are familiar, their origin is anything but. For in Haisch's view, they come out of the quantum vacuum. What we think of as a vacuum is, according to quantum theory, a sea of force fields. The best understood of all these fields is the electromagnetic field, and it affects us constantly -- our bodies are held together by electromagnetic forces, and light is an oscillation in the electromagnetic field. That these fields pop up in the vacuum is reflected by Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, which states that the shorter the length of time over which an energy measurement is made, the less precise the result will be. So although the energy of the electromagnetic field in the vacuum averages to zero over long periods of time, it fluctuates wildly on very short timescales. Rather than being empty, the vacuum is a choppy sea of randomly fluctuating electromagnetic waves. We don't see or feel them because they pop in and out of existence incredibly quickly, appearing only for a split second. These fleeting apparitions are called virtual photons. But sometimes, virtual becomes real. Stephen Hawking worked out that the powerful gravity of a black hole distorts this quantum sea so much that when a virtual photon appears, it can break free and escape into space, becoming real and visible just like an ordinary photon. And a fundamental principle of Einstein's theory of general relativity is that gravity is indistinguishable from acceleration. So if gravity can release photons from the vacuum, why shouldn't acceleration do the same? In the mid-1970s, Paul Davies at the University of Newcastle upon Tyne and Bill Unruh at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver realised that an observer accelerated through the quantum vacuum should be bathed in electromagnetic radiation. The quantum vacuum becomes a real and detectable thing. This idea hit Haisch in February 1991, when Alfonso Rueda of California State University gave a talk about the Davies-Unruh effect at Lockheed Martin's Solar and Astrophysics Laboratory in Palo Alto. If an accelerated body sees radiation coming at it from the front, Haisch thought, that radiation might apply a retarding force. "I'm an astrophysicist," he says. "So I am used to the idea that radiation -- for instance, sunlight - can exert a pressure on bodies such as comet particles." Rueda said he would do some calculations. Some months later, he left a message on Haisch's answering machine in the middle of the night. When Haisch played it back the next morning he heard an excited Rueda saying, "I think I can derive Newton's second law." According to Rueda, photons boosted out of the quantum vacuum by an object's acceleration would bounce off electric charges in the object. The result is a retarding force which is proportional to the acceleration, as in Newton's second law, which defines inertial mass as the ratio of the force acting on an object to the acceleration produced. Haisch and Rueda, along with their colleague Harold Puthoff of the Institute for Advanced Studies in Austin, Texas, published their initial work in February 1994 (Physical Review A, vol 49, p 678). This electromagnetic drag certainly sounds like inertia. But do the calculations agree with the known inertial masses of subatomic particles? Why are quarks heavier than electrons, even though they have less charge? And why are the particles called muons and taus heavier than electrons, even though they appear to be identical in other ways? It might be because they are doing a different kind of dance. In deriving his result, Rueda adapted an old idea proposed by quantum pioneers Louis-Victor de Broglie and Erwin Schrsdinger. When low-energy photons bounce off electrons, they are scattered as if the electron were a ball of charge with a finite size. But in very high-energy interactions, the electrons behave more as if they are point-like. So de Broglie and Schrsdinger proposed that an electron is actually a point-like charge which jitters about randomly within a certain volume. This can account for both kinds of behaviour: at high energies, the interaction is fast and the electron appears frozen in place; at low energies, it is slow, and the electron has time to jiggle about so much that it appears to be a fuzzy sphere. Haisch and Rueda believe that de Broglie and Schrsdinger's idea was on the right lines. The electron's jitter could be caused by virtual photons in the quantum vacuum, just like the Brownian motion of a dust particle bombarded by molecules in the air. "Random battering by the jittery vacuum smears out the electron," says Haisch. This is important because Haisch and Rueda suspect that their inertia-producing mechanism occurs at a resonant frequency. Photons in the quantum vacuum with the same frequency as the jitter are much more likely to bounce off a particle, so they dominate its inertia. They speculate that muons and taus may be some kind of excited state of the electron, with a correspondingly higher resonance frequency. That would probably mean a greater mass, as there are more high-frequency vacuum photons to bounce off. Quarks might also be resonating in a different way from electrons. "If we knew what caused the resonance we would probably be able to explain the ratio of the various quarks' rest masses to the electron rest mass," says Haisch. The cause of such excitations might lie in string theory, which treats particles as tiny vibrating strings, but this is only conjecture. If inertial mass is an electromagnetic effect, why does the neutrino appear to have some mass, even though it doesn't feel electromagnetic forces? This might be easier to explain. The electromagnetic field is not the only field in the vacuum. There are two other force fields: the weak nuclear force and the strong nuclear force. Both could make contributions to mass in a similar way to the electromagnetic field. Neutrinos only feel the weak force, which could explain their small mass. Quarks feel the strong nuclear force, and that could affect their mass. It is even possible that strong-force fluctuations in the vacuum dominate the masses of quarks and gluons. As these contributions are much harder to work out than the electromagnetic ones, no one has attempted them yet. Vacuum-packed So much for inertia. But what about the force holding you to the floor? Can the vacuum account for gravitational mass too? The idea of linking gravity with the quantum vacuum was suggested by Russian physicist Andrei Sakharov in 1968 and has been developed recently by Puthoff. Haisch and Rueda's latest project is to connect this idea with their work on inertia. It's still highly speculative, but they think they can explain away gravity as an effect of electromagnetic forces. Oscillating charges in a chunk of matter affect the charged virtual particles in the vacuum. This polarised vacuum then exerts a force on the charges in another chunk of matter. In this rather tortuous manner the two chunks of matter attract each other. "This might explain why gravity is so weak," says Haisch. "One mass does not pull directly on another mass but only through the intermediary of the vacuum." Einstein's theory of general relativity already explains gravity beautifully in terms of the warping of space-time by matter, so this "geometrical" description ought to be compatible with the quantum-vacuum picture. Haisch points out that the curvature of space can only be inferred from the bending of the paths of light rays. But the polarised vacuum would bend light paths, just as a piece of glass does when light enters or leaves it. "The warpage of space might be equivalent to a variation in the refractive index of the vacuum," Haisch conjectures. "In this way, all the mathematics of general relativity could stay, intact, since space-time would look as if it were warped." And all the strange predictions of general relativity, such as black holes and gravitational waves, would be manifestations of this polarised vacuum. If they can get their idea to work, Haisch and Rueda will have a theory of quantum gravity -- the long-sought marriage of Einstein's general relativity with quantum mechanics. It would finally allow physicists to understand the first moments after the big bang, and the crushing singularity at the core of a black hole. That just leaves rest mass, the kind of mass that's equivalent to energy. According to Haisch, the Higgs might not be needed to explain rest mass at all. The inherent energy in a particle may be a result of its jittering motion, the buffeting caused by virtual particles in the vacuum. "A massless particle may pick up energy from it, hence acquiring what we think of as rest mass," he says. If this were the case, all three facets of mass would be different aspects of the battering of the quantum vacuum. "It would be a tidy package." It may be that there is no explanation for inertial and gravitational mass. They may just come hand in hand with rest mass. This is what many particle physicists believe. "Some people think Haisch and Rueda are on the right track, others think they are on a wild goose chase," says Paul Wesson, an astrophysicist at the University of Waterloo in Ontario, Canada. But if gravitational and inertial mass do emerge from the vacuum, perhaps we could take control of them. It might be possible to cancel mass, creating an inertia-less drive that could accelerate a spaceship to nearly the speed of light in the blink of an eye. To do this we would have to exclude quantum fluctuations from a region where there is matter -- blow a bubble in the vacuum. Haisch doesn't know if that is possible. "Nature does not abhor a vacuum," he says. "However, it may abhor a vacuum in the vacuum." This article appeared in the February 3 issue of New Scientist New Scientist. Copyright 2001 - All rights reserved. The material on this page is provided by New Scientist and may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without written authorization from New Scientist. From VM Mon Sep 9 17:19:01 2002 Content-Length: 16219 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["16219" "Monday" "9" "September" "2002" "20:17:21" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "534" "starship-design: Fwd: Atomic scale memory" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id g8A0HY04029867 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 17:17:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id g8A0HYGp029866 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 17:17:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo-m04.mx.aol.com (imo-m04.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.7]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id g8A0HW04029820 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 17:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.10.) id i.d4.1cdbd205 (18403); Mon, 9 Sep 2002 20:17:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_d4.1cdbd205.2aae9411_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: JohnFrance@aol.com, dtaylor611@comcast.net, moschleg@erols.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, RICKJ@btio.com Subject: starship-design: Fwd: Atomic scale memory Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 20:17:21 EDT --part1_d4.1cdbd205.2aae9411_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/9/02 9:51:17 AM, KStarks.Apollo@SIKORSKY.COM writes: > > > > >http://www.news.wisc.edu/releases/view.html?id=7774 > > > >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > 9/3/02 > > CONTACT: Franz J. Himpsel (608) 263-5590, (608) > >877-2000 fhimpsel@facstaff.wisc.edu > > > > NOTE TO PHOTO EDITORS: To download a high-resolution > >image to accompany this story, > > visit: http://www.news.wisc.edu/newsphotos/atomic.html > > > > > SCIENTISTS DEVELOP ATOMIC-SCALE MEMORY > > > > MADISON - In 1959, physics icon Richard Feynman, in >a > >characteristic > > back-of-the-envelope calculation, predicted that all > >the words written in the history of the > > world could be contained in a cube of material one > >two-hundredths of an inch wide - > > provided those words were written with atoms. > > > > Now, a little more than 40 years after Feynman's > >prescient estimate, scientists at the > > University of Wisconsin-Madison have created an > >atomic-scale memory using atoms of > > silicon in place of the 1s and 0s that computers use >to > >store data. > > > > The feat, reported in the journal Nanotechnology, > >represents a first crude step toward a > > practical atomic-scale memory where atoms would > >represent the bits of information that > > make up the words, pictures and codes read by > >computers. > > > > "This is proof of concept of what Feynman was saying >40 > >years ago," says Franz Himpsel, > > a UW-Madison professor of physics and the senior author > >of the Nanotechnology paper. > > > > Although the memory created by Himpsel and his > >colleagues is in two dimensions rather > > than the three-dimensional cube envisioned by Feynman, > >it provides a storage density a > > million times greater than a CD-ROM, today's > >conventional means of storing data. > > > > The atom, says Himpsel, represents the "hard wall" >of > >technological miniaturization. "We > > seem to be at a natural limit." > > > > Although divisible, the atom is a fundamental unit >of > >nature. They are the smallest > > particles of an element and a single grain of sand, >for > >example, can contain 10 million > > billion atoms. > > > > The new memory was constructed on a silicon surface > >that automatically forms furrows > > within which rows of silicon atoms are aligned and >rest > >like tennis balls in a gutter. By > > lifting out single silicon atoms with the tip of a > >scanning tunneling microscope, the > > Wisconsin team created gaps that represent the 0s >of > >data storage while atoms left in > > place represent the1s. > > > > Like conventional memory, the atomic-scale device >can > >be initialized, formatted, written > > and read at room temperature. > > > > By manipulating individual atoms at room temperature >to > >create memory, Himpsel and his > > colleagues are treading a middle ground between atom > >manipulation at very low > > temperatures and conventional data storage, which > >operates at room temperature but > > uses millions of atoms per bit. It is far easier to > >manipulate atoms one at a time and > > keep them stable at very low temperatures, Himpsel > >says. > > > > The new memory was made without the use of lithography. > >To make conventional memory > > chips, light is used to etch patterns on a chemically > >treated silicon surface. To use > > lithography to make chips that are denser than the >best > >available chips is prohibitively > > expensive and difficult. > > > > The new atomic-scale memory was made by evaporating > >gold onto a silicon wafer, which > > results in a precise track structure. By subsequently > >evaporating silicon onto the treated > > wafer, the Wisconsin team was able to diffuse silicon > >atoms across the structure where > > they line up and sit within the tracks like eggs in >a > >carton. These silicon atoms represent > > the bits of information. > > > > Importantly, the atoms line up in such a way that >there > >are atomically precise gaps > > between individual atoms, permitting scientists to > >pluck the particles out using the > > superfine tip of a scanning tunneling microscope > >without disturbing neighboring atoms and > > possibly creating unwanted chemical bonds. > > > > While the Wisconsin work proves the feasibility of > >atomic-scale memory and provides a > > platform for exploring the fundamental limits of data > >storage, the technology will require > > years, if not decades, of refinement to achieve a > >practical working memory that could be > > mass produced, Himpsel says. Obvious drawbacks, he > >notes, are the fact the memory was > > constructed and manipulated in a vacuum, and that >a > >scanning tunneling microscope is > > needed to write memory which makes the writing process > >very time consuming. > > > > Moreover, there is a tradeoff between memory density > >and speed, Himpsel says. "As > > density increases, your ability to read the memory > >comes down because you get less and > > less of a signal. As you make things smaller, it's > >going to get slower." > > > > An intriguing aspect of the Wisconsin work is that > >memory density is comparable to the > > way nature stores data in DNA molecules. The Wisconsin > >atomic-scale silicon memory > > uses 20 atoms to store one bit of information, > >including the space around the single atom > > bits. DNA uses 32 atoms to store information in one > >half of the chemical base pair that is > > the fundamental unit that makes up genetic information. > > > > > > "Compared to conventional storage media, both DNA >and > >the silicon surface excel by their > > storage density," says Himpsel. > > > > Co-authors of the Nanotechnology paper, published >in > >the July 4, 2002 issue of > > Nanotechnology, include R. Bennewitz, J.N. Crain, >A. > >Kirakosian, J-L. Lin, J.L. McChesney > > and D.Y. Petrovykh. > > > > For more information, visit: > >http://uw.physics.wisc.edu/~himpsel/memory.html > > # # # > > -- Terry Devitt (608) 262-8282, > >trdevitt@facstaff.wisc.edu > > Version for printing --part1_d4.1cdbd205.2aae9411_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-xd03.mx.aol.com (rly-xd03.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.168]) by air-xd05.mail.aol.com (v88.20) with ESMTP id MAILINXD54-0909095117; Mon, 09 Sep 2002 09:51:17 -0400 Received: from mail2.utc.com (mail.utc.com [192.249.46.67]) by rly-xd03.mx.aol.com (v88.20) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXD39-0909095049; Mon, 09 Sep 2002 09:50:49 -0400 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail2.utc.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) id g89Dom323131; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 09:50:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uusnwa0p.utc.com(159.82.80.106) by mail2.utc.com via csmap (V6.0) id srcAAAvtaqlT; Mon, 9 Sep 02 09:50:48 -0400 Received: from saexch-bh1-stf.sikorsky.com (saexch-bh1-stf.sikorsky.com [140.76.216.20]) by uusnwa0p.utc.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g89Doka07874; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 09:50:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by saexch-bh1-stf.sikorsky.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 09:50:44 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Starks, Kelly Apollo" To: "'Carol'" , "'kathan (yahoo account)'" , "'Kathleen Casciola'" , "'Kellys Home'" , "'Rhonda office'" , "Love, Philip B" Subject: Atomic scale memory Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 09:50:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" http://www.news.wisc.edu/releases/view.html?id=7774 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE 9/3/02 CONTACT: Franz J. Himpsel (608) 263-5590, (608) 877-2000 fhimpsel@facstaff.wisc.edu NOTE TO PHOTO EDITORS: To download a high-resolution image to accompany this story, visit: http://www.news.wisc.edu/newsphotos/atomic.html SCIENTISTS DEVELOP ATOMIC-SCALE MEMORY MADISON - In 1959, physics icon Richard Feynman, in a characteristic back-of-the-envelope calculation, predicted that all the words written in the history of the world could be contained in a cube of material one two-hundredths of an inch wide - provided those words were written with atoms. Now, a little more than 40 years after Feynman's prescient estimate, scientists at the University of Wisconsin-Madison have created an atomic-scale memory using atoms of silicon in place of the 1s and 0s that computers use to store data. The feat, reported in the journal Nanotechnology, represents a first crude step toward a practical atomic-scale memory where atoms would represent the bits of information that make up the words, pictures and codes read by computers. "This is proof of concept of what Feynman was saying 40 years ago," says Franz Himpsel, a UW-Madison professor of physics and the senior author of the Nanotechnology paper. Although the memory created by Himpsel and his colleagues is in two dimensions rather than the three-dimensional cube envisioned by Feynman, it provides a storage density a million times greater than a CD-ROM, today's conventional means of storing data. The atom, says Himpsel, represents the "hard wall" of technological miniaturization. "We seem to be at a natural limit." Although divisible, the atom is a fundamental unit of nature. They are the smallest particles of an element and a single grain of sand, for example, can contain 10 million billion atoms. The new memory was constructed on a silicon surface that automatically forms furrows within which rows of silicon atoms are aligned and rest like tennis balls in a gutter. By lifting out single silicon atoms with the tip of a scanning tunneling microscope, the Wisconsin team created gaps that represent the 0s of data storage while atoms left in place represent the1s. Like conventional memory, the atomic-scale device can be initialized, formatted, written and read at room temperature. By manipulating individual atoms at room temperature to create memory, Himpsel and his colleagues are treading a middle ground between atom manipulation at very low temperatures and conventional data storage, which operates at room temperature but uses millions of atoms per bit. It is far easier to manipulate atoms one at a time and keep them stable at very low temperatures, Himpsel says. The new memory was made without the use of lithography. To make conventional memory chips, light is used to etch patterns on a chemically treated silicon surface. To use lithography to make chips that are denser than the best available chips is prohibitively expensive and difficult. The new atomic-scale memory was made by evaporating gold onto a silicon wafer, which results in a precise track structure. By subsequently evaporating silicon onto the treated wafer, the Wisconsin team was able to diffuse silicon atoms across the structure where they line up and sit within the tracks like eggs in a carton. These silicon atoms represent the bits of information. Importantly, the atoms line up in such a way that there are atomically precise gaps between individual atoms, permitting scientists to pluck the particles out using the superfine tip of a scanning tunneling microscope without disturbing neighboring atoms and possibly creating unwanted chemical bonds. While the Wisconsin work proves the feasibility of atomic-scale memory and provides a platform for exploring the fundamental limits of data storage, the technology will require years, if not decades, of refinement to achieve a practical working memory that could be mass produced, Himpsel says. Obvious drawbacks, he notes, are the fact the memory was constructed and manipulated in a vacuum, and that a scanning tunneling microscope is needed to write memory which makes the writing process very time consuming. Moreover, there is a tradeoff between memory density and speed, Himpsel says. "As density increases, your ability to read the memory comes down because you get less and less of a signal. As you make things smaller, it's going to get slower." An intriguing aspect of the Wisconsin work is that memory density is comparable to the way nature stores data in DNA molecules. The Wisconsin atomic-scale silicon memory uses 20 atoms to store one bit of information, including the space around the single atom bits. DNA uses 32 atoms to store information in one half of the chemical base pair that is the fundamental unit that makes up genetic information. "Compared to conventional storage media, both DNA and the silicon surface excel by their storage density," says Himpsel. Co-authors of the Nanotechnology paper, published in the July 4, 2002 issue of Nanotechnology, include R. Bennewitz, J.N. Crain, A. Kirakosian, J-L. Lin, J.L. McChesney and D.Y. Petrovykh. For more information, visit: http://uw.physics.wisc.edu/~himpsel/memory.html # # # -- Terry Devitt (608) 262-8282, trdevitt@facstaff.wisc.edu Version for printing --part1_d4.1cdbd205.2aae9411_boundary-- From VM Mon Sep 23 10:14:56 2002 Content-Length: 965 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["965" "Monday" "23" "September" "2002" "14:28:00" "+0100" "scifox@asylum30.freeserve.co.uk" "scifox@asylum30.freeserve.co.uk" nil "21" "starship-design: LCDs" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil "starship-design: LCDs" nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id g8NDT7Le011564 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 06:29:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id g8NDT7gS011563 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 06:29:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.171]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id g8NDT5Le011557 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 06:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-1406.antelope.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.134.21.126] helo=kat) by cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17tTGp-0003st-00; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:29:04 +0100 Message-ID: <000701c26305$3217c4c0$7e1586d9@kat> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: From: Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship Design" Cc: "AAA - List" Subject: starship-design: LCDs Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:28:00 +0100 In recent discussions with a friend I was pointed out a problem with my multi-purpose terminals idea. Previously I wanted to use full-colour displays, allowing maximum adaptability (all forms of display, readouts, alerts, etc...). However, as my friend said, colour displays both LCD and plasma, lose or leach their colour over time, while monochrome LCDs are virtually imortal. Now, I'd still like to use colour displays in my designs, as they are more adaptable, even if possibly shorter-lived and more expensive. Does anyone have any info on long-lasting flat colour displays, prefable low-energy use ones? I'll probably end up doing the prototypes one mono displays, as I'm on a low budget and they'rw all I have laying about, but I'd like to leave the room for expansion. I picked up the 19" rack on saturday, which already has some of the equipment mounted in it, so things are getting a little closer to first practical experiements. All the best Sci From VM Mon Sep 23 10:44:13 2002 Content-Length: 1450 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1450" "Monday" "23" "September" "2002" "12:31:24" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "48" "RE: starship-design: LCDs" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id g8NHVSLe010020 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id g8NHVS30010019 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id g8NHVQLe010011 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from user121.net241.fl.sprint-hsd.net ([64.45.208.121] helo=broadsword) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17tX3M-00006q-00; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:31:24 -0700 Message-ID: <007a01c26327$0acb86a0$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000701c26305$3217c4c0$7e1586d9@kat> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: , "'Starship Design'" Cc: "'AAA - List'" Subject: RE: starship-design: LCDs Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 12:31:24 -0500 Plasma screens are much more rugged, durable and longer lasting. Unfortunately, the ones I am familiar with are power hogs. Lee > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu > [mailto:owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu]On Behalf Of > scifox@asylum30.freeserve.co.uk > Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 8:28 AM > To: Starship Design > Cc: AAA - List > Subject: starship-design: LCDs > > > In recent discussions with a friend I was pointed out a > problem with my > multi-purpose terminals idea. Previously I wanted to use full-colour > displays, allowing maximum adaptability (all forms of > display, readouts, > alerts, etc...). However, as my friend said, colour displays > both LCD and > plasma, lose or leach their colour over time, while > monochrome LCDs are > virtually imortal. > Now, I'd still like to use colour displays in my designs, as > they are more > adaptable, even if possibly shorter-lived and more expensive. > Does anyone > have any info on long-lasting flat colour displays, prefable > low-energy use > ones? > > I'll probably end up doing the prototypes one mono displays, > as I'm on a low > budget and they'rw all I have laying about, but I'd like to > leave the room > for expansion. I picked up the 19" rack on saturday, which > already has some > of the equipment mounted in it, so things are getting a > little closer to > first practical experiements. > > All the best > > Sci > > From VM Mon Sep 23 17:21:50 2002 Content-Length: 313 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["313" "Monday" "23" "September" "2002" "19:52:48" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" "<14b.148e49db.2ac10350@aol.com>" "15" "Re: starship-design: LCDs" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id g8NNr3Le016958 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 16:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id g8NNr3Q5016957 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 16:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo-r01.mx.aol.com (imo-r01.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.97]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id g8NNr2Le016925 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 16:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-r01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.10.) id z.14b.148e49db (25098) for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 19:52:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <14b.148e49db.2ac10350@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: LCDs Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 19:52:48 EDT In a message dated 9/23/02 1:33:30 PM, lparker@cacaphony.net writes: >Plasma screens are much more rugged, durable and longer lasting. > >Unfortunately, the ones I am familiar with are power hogs. > > > >Lee Lee, Starships ae such a power hog, the flat screens could hope to use enonugh to be noteworthy. ;) From VM Thu Sep 26 14:46:45 2002 Content-Length: 1890 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1890" "Thursday" "26" "September" "2002" "16:24:55" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "45" "starship-design: Russia mulls mothballing space station" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id g8QLPr8k004245 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 14:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id g8QLPrVk004244 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 14:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id g8QLPq8k004230 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 14:25:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from user121.net241.fl.sprint-hsd.net ([64.45.208.121] helo=broadsword) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17ug8C-0006Pn-00 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 14:25:08 -0700 Message-ID: <000201c265a3$29983230$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design List \(E-mail\)" Subject: starship-design: Russia mulls mothballing space station Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:24:55 -0500 Russia mulls mothballing space station Thursday, September 26, 2002 Posted: 2:31 PM EDT (1831 GMT) MOSCOW (Reuters) -- Manned missions to the international space station may have to be suspended because Russia cannot afford to build new craft to carry crews there, a Russian space official said Thursday. "The situation is desperate," Valery Ryumin, director of the Russian section of the ISS, said by telephone. Ryumin, also a top designer for rocket-builder Energiya -- which supplies the Soyuz craft -- said the company had no money beyond next year to build the vehicles. "It takes two years to build the spaceship. Unless we place an order today, we will have nothing to fly on in 2004," he said. A key member of the 16-nation space station program, Russia has undertaken to provide Soyuz capsules. Designed to carry three people, they remain docked to the orbiting outpost for months at a time and can be used for emergency rescues. It is intended for use on a single mission. Ryumin said that without Soyuz, U.S. crews would not be able to use the space station as their shuttle craft were designed to remain at the station for a maximum of three weeks. The U.S. program also had no alternative provision for rescue missions. "That is why the issue has been raised of suspending permanent manned missions at the station," he said. Ryumin said he had sent a letter to his U.S. counterpart explaining Russia's concerns. He suggested that the publicity given to Russia's financial difficulties might prompt the government to stump up more funds. "Perhaps the government will choose to avoid an international scandal," he said. "But I will tell you frankly that I have almost given up hope." Once I knew where I was going, but now I have forgotten. Sometimes my mind wanders. Sometimes it goes alone, and other times it takes me along...this isn't one of those times... From VM Fri Sep 27 12:16:58 2002 Content-Length: 2763 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2763" "Friday" "27" "September" "2002" "20:12:37" "+0100" "Peter \\(Sci\\)" "scifox@asylum30.freeserve.co.uk" nil "72" "Re: starship-design: LCDs" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id g8RJCs8k026718 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 12:12:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id g8RJCrIL026717 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 12:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmailm1.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailm1.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.18]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id g8RJCp8k026684 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 12:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-84.elephant.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.134.240.84] helo=kat) by cmailm1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17v0Xd-0006Z8-00 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 20:12:48 +0100 Message-ID: <002d01c26659$ddf8fc80$54f086d9@kat> References: <14b.148e49db.2ac10350@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Peter \(Sci\)" From: "Peter \(Sci\)" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Subject: Re: starship-design: LCDs Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 20:12:37 +0100 > >Plasma screens are much more rugged, durable and longer lasting. > > > >Unfortunately, the ones I am familiar with are power hogs. > > > > > > > >Lee > > Lee, Starships ae such a power hog, the flat screens could hope to use > enonugh to be noteworthy. > > ;) Well, I've done some more research now, so I think the answers are resonably logical. You're right, Plasma displays are power-hogs... compared to LCDs. Compared to CRTs, they use less than half the power however. I have a suspicion (and that's all it is) that some effieicy could be gained with plasma screens if they didn't have to convert the mains-source power (a "mains" supply apready running at the needed 300V or so?). Looking into their structure, they're more durable physicly, but I suspect also in vacuum. LCDs are thin and contain a liquid, which would be leached out in any (hopefully expected) vacuum exposure, whereas plasmas only containa low-pressure gas, making it less likely to leak or fracture from internal pressure. They could be used easily in and out of vacuum (EG: and V-exposed ship-lab, or in an airlock?). It would make more of a demand on a ships power, but it can be lessened by simply having inactive terminals shut down. The stats I've found for their lifespan also seem impressive: This varies considerably between manufacturers but usually from 20,000 to 30,000 hours. After this time the plasma screen will only be at around half the original brightness. If you used your plasma screen for 5 hours a day every day it would last over 10 years. At the end of the plasma screen's life, the screen will be very dull and you will need to replace the plasma screen with a new one. This is one advantage plasma screens have over LCD projectors, which have a bulb life of usually 2,000 hours before replacement. Another source said: Manufacturers quote a life expectancy of around 24,000 continual hours use before noticeable deterioration of the picture quality becomes apparent. It will probably last much longer depending on the application of your screen. Eight hours per day, seven days per week for eight years is less than 24,000 hours! Even being used 24hours a day, that still nearly 3 years of solid use before they loose half their brightness. with power-saving modes saving of screen life and power, a ship would probably only need a complete screen refit every 10 years? I'd imagine it's the phosper in the screen that decays, leading to the screens death. Anyone know if there's a way to revitalise phosphers? Even if not, I'd guess most of the screens could be reused if the phosphers could be replaced? Baring new developments in flat-screens, I think Plas,a screens fit the bill nicely. =) All the best, Sci From VM Fri Sep 27 12:22:39 2002 Content-Length: 528 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["528" "Friday" "27" "September" "2002" "20:16:29" "+0100" "Peter \\(Sci\\)" "scifox@asylum30.freeserve.co.uk" nil "16" "Re: starship-design: Russia mulls mothballing space station" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id g8RJGU8k028161 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 12:16:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id g8RJGUIw028156 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 12:16:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmailm2.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailm2.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.210]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id g8RJGT8k028130 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 12:16:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-84.elephant.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.134.240.84] helo=kat) by cmailm2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17v0bD-00049N-00 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 20:16:28 +0100 Message-ID: <002e01c2665a$67797ca0$54f086d9@kat> References: <000201c265a3$29983230$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Peter \(Sci\)" From: "Peter \(Sci\)" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design List \(E-mail\)" Subject: Re: starship-design: Russia mulls mothballing space station Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 20:16:29 +0100 > Russia mulls mothballing space station > Thursday, September 26, 2002 Posted: 2:31 PM EDT (1831 GMT) Just curious, does anyone know if international salvage law applys to spacecraft (as a type of ship?). Even if not, I doubt there's been a case of it yet. If the ISS is abandoned, like MIR was, I'd rather not see it wasted as dust in the upper atsmosphere. If it were to be abandoned, I imagine it could be claimed somehow and moved to a parking orbit until the claimee could make use of it. Sci From VM Fri Sep 27 14:07:13 2002 Content-Length: 741 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["741" "Friday" "27" "September" "2002" "16:54:45" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "30" "Re: starship-design: Russia mulls mothballing space station" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id g8RKst8k021286 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6/Submit) id g8RKst4m021285 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo-r02.mx.aol.com (imo-r02.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.98]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id g8RKsr8k021262 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:54:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id z.26.2e57d9fb (25098) for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 16:54:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <26.2e57d9fb.2ac61f95@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Russia mulls mothballing space station Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 16:54:45 EDT In a message dated 9/27/02 3:18:10 PM, scifox@asylum30.freeserve.co.uk writes: >> Russia mulls mothballing space station >> Thursday, September 26, 2002 Posted: 2:31 PM EDT (1831 GMT) > > > > > >Just curious, does anyone know if international salvage law applys to >spacecraft (as a type of ship?). I beleave it does, though only a fool would try to "claim" a few billion dolars worth of US teratory. ;) >Even if not, I doubt there's been a case >of it yet. > >If the ISS is abandoned, like MIR was, I'd rather not see it wasted as >dust in the upper atsmosphere. If it were to be abandoned, I imagine it could >be claimed somehow and moved to a parking orbit until the claimee could make >use of it. > >Sci