From VM Fri Jan 11 19:15:23 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["21751" "Friday" "11" "January" "2002" "21:08:51" "-0600" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "479" "starship-design: X-33 Forces Lose Battle, Space Plane Scuttled" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 21751 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0C39U7D024399 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 19:09:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) id g0C39TJX024398 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 19:09:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@traffic.gnt.net [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0C39S7D024388 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 19:09:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadsword (user121.net241.fl.sprint-hsd.net [64.45.208.121]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id VAA08936; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 21:09:25 -0600 Message-ID: <00dd01c19b16$7716c010$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00DE_01C19AE4.2C7C5010" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design List \(E-mail\)" Subject: starship-design: X-33 Forces Lose Battle, Space Plane Scuttled Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 21:08:51 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00DE_01C19AE4.2C7C5010 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_00DF_01C19AE4.2C7C5010" ------=_NextPart_001_00DF_01C19AE4.2C7C5010 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_002_00E0_01C19AE4.2C7C5010" ------=_NextPart_002_00E0_01C19AE4.2C7C5010 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-33 Forces Lose Battle, Space Plane Scuttled By Leonard David Senior Space Writer posted: 09:47 am ET 12 December 2001 WASHINGTON -- Advocates for keeping the NASA-Lockheed Martin X-33 space plane in one piece have lost the battle, with the experimental craft now being dismantled. Last week, Lockheed Martin and NASA sources suggested an agreement was forthcoming to possibly place the X-33 in storage at Edwards Air Force Base, California. The craft would become a true "hangar queen" - kept inside a specially built desert facility. The storage site was part of the launch complex from which the vehicle was to have been launched on a series of suborbital test shots. However, this saving grace of a plan was shelved. On Monday, workers in Palmdale, California -- where the X-33 sits -- began the task of taking apart the flight-ready hardware. Now the high-tech leftovers of the X-33 will be divvied up between NASA and contractors to help cultivate work on next-generation space transportation concepts. Worthwhile hardware Much of the X-33 rocket plane structure was completed. Also, a set of linear aerospike engines that would push the craft skyward had been test fired. Over $1.2 billion in NASA and industry cash was poured into the project since July 1996. Funds came largely from the government, with the space agency providing 70 percent of the monies, with industry providing the other 30 percent. Earlier this year, NASA nixed the cooperative effort, allowing the partnership to expire in March of this year. At one point, the U.S. Air Force studied whether or not to back the X-33, later deciding against the idea. For NASA, the work was to lead to a space shuttle replacement. For Lockheed Martin, the sub-scale X-33 was seen as critical to verifying new technologies in the building of a company dream machine, the larger VentureStar, a commercial, fully reusable, single-stage-to-orbit vehicle. Action plan list "There's a lot of worthwhile hardware," said Dennis Smith, program manager for NASA's Space Launch Initiative (SLI) at the space agency's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama. Since both NASA and industry partners spent money on X-33, how best to dispose of space plane elements is now under discussion, he said. Among items being eyed for distribution: X-33 oxygen tanks, umbilical cords, fiber optic cabling, avionics gear, propellant feed lines, electro-mechanical actuators, valves, advanced thermal protection system tiles, and special software. "There's just an enormous amount of hardware that we can transition over to SLI, or other programs. The hardware has a lot of utility in it," Smith told SPACE.com. "It became obvious, to us at least, that the hardware was worth more distributed than it was together," he said. Smith said an action plan list of what and where X-33 parts are to be shipped and stored is in the works, due before the end of the month. A lot of the hardware could likely end up at the NASA Dryden Flight Research Center at Edwards, California, Smith said, as well as at Marshall Space Flight Center or the Kennedy Space Center in Florida. Lockheed Martin's use of X-33 bits and pieces hasn't been pinpointed, Smith said. "Anything that the government owns will be open to anyone, and we'll make that list available," he said. The X-33's desert launch site at Edwards Air Force Base has been transferred over to the military, Smith said. Intellectual property Julie Andrews, Lockheed Martin spokeswoman, said company engineers were always hopeful of saving the vehicle. One company source said the decision produced a lot of long faces. "The disappointment of never seeing X-33 fly is one thing. But we're optimistic about the next step," Andrews said. "There was an understanding it was at an end…and then onto the next generation," she said. Andrews said that divvying up the hardware assets is still being assessed. A detailed plan is still coming on specific items and where they are going to go, she said. "But the intellectual property is probably the strongest thing people have taken away from the project," Andrews said. ------=_NextPart_002_00E0_01C19AE4.2C7C5010 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 

X-33 Forces Lose Battle, Space Plane=20 Scuttled

By Leonard David
Senior = Space=20 Writer
posted:=20 09:47 am ET
12 December 2001		  

WASHINGTON -- Advocates for keeping the NASA-Lockheed Martin = X-33 space=20 plane in one piece have lost the battle, with the experimental = craft now=20 being dismantled.

Last = week,=20 Lockheed Martin and NASA sources suggested an agreement was = forthcoming to=20 possibly place the X-33 in storage at Edwards Air Force Base, = California.=20 The craft would become a true "hangar queen" - kept inside a = specially=20 built desert facility. The storage site was part of the launch = complex=20 from which the vehicle was to have been launched on a series of = suborbital=20 test shots.

However, this saving grace of a plan was shelved.

On Monday, workers in Palmdale, California -- where the X-33 = sits --=20 began the task of taking apart the flight-ready hardware.

Now the high-tech leftovers of the X-33 will be divvied up = between NASA=20 and contractors to help cultivate work on next-generation space=20 transportation concepts.

Worthwhile hardware

Much of the X-33 rocket plane structure was completed. Also, a = set of=20 linear aerospike engines that would push the craft skyward had = been test=20 fired.

Over $1.2 billion in NASA and industry cash was poured into the = project=20 since July 1996. Funds came largely from the government, with the = space=20 agency providing 70 percent of the monies, with industry providing = the=20 other 30 percent.

Earlier this year, NASA nixed the cooperative effort, allowing = the=20 partnership to expire in March of this year. At one point, the = U.S. Air=20 Force studied whether or not to back the X-33, later deciding = against the=20 idea.

For NASA, the work was to lead to a = space=20 shuttle replacement. For Lockheed Martin, the sub-scale X-33 = was=20 seen as critical to verifying new technologies in the = building of a=20 company dream machine, the larger VentureStar, a commercial, = fully=20 reusable, single-stage-to-orbit vehicle.=20

Action plan list

"There's a lot of worthwhile hardware," said Dennis = Smith,=20 program manager for NASA's Space Launch Initiative (SLI) at = the=20 space agency's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, = Alabama.=20 Since both NASA and industry partners spent money on X-33, = how best=20 to dispose of space plane elements is now under discussion, = he=20 said.

Among items being eyed for distribution: X-33 oxygen = tanks,=20 umbilical cords, fiber optic cabling, avionics gear, = propellant feed=20 lines, electro-mechanical actuators, valves, advanced = thermal=20 protection system tiles, and special software.

"There's just an enormous amount of hardware that we can=20 transition over to SLI, or other programs. The hardware has = a lot of=20 utility in it," Smith told SPACE.com. "It became obvious, to = us at=20 least, that the hardware was worth more distributed than it = was=20 together," he said.

Smith said an action plan list of what and where X-33 = parts are=20 to be shipped and stored is in the works, due before the end = of the=20 month.

A lot of the hardware could likely end up at the NASA = Dryden=20 Flight Research Center at Edwards, California, Smith said, = as well=20 as at Marshall Space Flight Center or the Kennedy Space = Center in=20 Florida.

Lockheed Martin's use of X-33 bits and pieces hasn't been = pinpointed, Smith said. "Anything that the government owns = will be=20 open to anyone, and we'll make that list available," he = said.

The X-33's desert launch site at Edwards Air Force Base = has been=20 transferred over to the military, Smith said.

Intellectual property

Julie Andrews, Lockheed Martin spokeswoman, said company=20 engineers were always hopeful of saving the vehicle.

One company source said the decision produced a lot of = long=20 faces.

"The disappointment of never seeing X-33 fly is one = thing. But=20 we're optimistic about the next step," Andrews said. "There = was an=20 understanding it was at an end...and then onto the next = generation,"=20 she said.

Andrews said that divvying up the hardware assets is = still being=20 assessed. A detailed plan is still coming on specific items = and=20 where they are going to go, she said.

"But the intellectual property is probably the strongest = thing=20 people have taken away from the project," Andrews=20 = said.

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name="SandCastle Contractors, Inc. Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="SandCastle Contractors, Inc. Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Parker;L. FN:L. Clayton Parker (E-mail) ORG:SandCastle Contractors, Inc. TEL;WORK;VOICE:(850) 650-6588 TEL;HOME;VOICE:(850) 654-4773 TEL;CELL;VOICE:(850) 585-5502 TEL;CAR;VOICE:(850) 585-5504 TEL;WORK;FAX:(850) 650-6588 ADR;WORK:;;P.O. Box 1762;Destin;FL;32540-1762 LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:P.O. Box 1762=3D0D=3D0ADestin, FL = 32540-1762 EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:lparker@cacaphony.net REV:20011020T212607Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_00DE_01C19AE4.2C7C5010-- From VM Mon Jan 14 10:19:15 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["597" "Friday" "11" "January" "2002" "22:43:01" "-0600" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "18" "RE: starship-design: X-33 Forces Lose Battle, Space Plane Scuttled" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "starship-design: X-33 Forces Lose Battle, Space Plane Scuttled" nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 597 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0C4hd7D014290 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 20:43:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) id g0C4hdZs014289 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 20:43:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@traffic.gnt.net [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0C4hb7D014282 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 20:43:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadsword (user121.net241.fl.sprint-hsd.net [64.45.208.121]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id WAA30553; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 22:43:34 -0600 Message-ID: <00fb01c19b23$9e578120$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <3C3F8540.45B61561@jetnet.ab.ca> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "'Ben Franchuk'" Cc: "Starship-Design List \(E-mail\)" Subject: RE: starship-design: X-33 Forces Lose Battle, Space Plane Scuttled Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 22:43:01 -0600 > "L. Parker" wrote: > > > Over $1.2 billion in NASA and industry cash was poured into > the project > > since July 1996. Funds came largely from the government, > with the space > > agency providing 70 percent of the monies, with industry > providing the other > > 30 percent. > > I am sure a few % of that 1.2 billon could have kept Rotory Rocket > afloat! I don't suppose you remember DC-X? Single stage to orbit and it actually flew, with only a pittance of government money. It was a real shining star and its cancellation is almost enough to make me believe in conspiracies.... L. Parker From VM Mon Jan 14 10:19:15 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4116" "Saturday" "12" "January" "2002" "09:14:33" "-0600" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "84" "starship-design: X-38 Test Craft Completes Highest, Fastest, Longest Flight Yet" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "starship-design: X-38 Test Craft Completes Highest, Fastest, Longest Flight Yet" nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 4116 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0CFFB7D004932 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2002 07:15:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) id g0CFFBxl004930 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 12 Jan 2002 07:15:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@traffic.gnt.net [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0CFF97D004901 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2002 07:15:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadsword (user121.net241.fl.sprint-hsd.net [64.45.208.121]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id JAA09243 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2002 09:15:07 -0600 Message-ID: <010801c19b7b$d8165730$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0109_01C19B49.8D7BE730" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design List \(E-mail\)" Subject: starship-design: X-38 Test Craft Completes Highest, Fastest, Longest Flight Yet Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 09:14:33 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0109_01C19B49.8D7BE730 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-38 Test Craft Completes Highest, Fastest, Longest Flight Yet Houston - Dec 17, 2001 The X-38 prototype crew rescue vehicle successfully completed its highest, fastest and longest flight to date Thursday at NASA's Dryden Flight Research Center, a test flight that intersected some of the most critical conditions such a craft would experience when returning from space. "The X-38 tests involve innovative technologies that will be useful for many future human spacecraft as well as a crew rescue vehicle," said X-38 Crew Return Vehicle (CRV) Program Manager John Muratore. "Although the production of the crew rescue vehicle for the station is deferred, we are continuing to test and mature these technologies to reduce the technical and cost risk of a future CRV production program." The landing test, the eighth large-scale flight test for the program, began with the release of the X-38 from NASA's B-52 aircraft at an altitude of 45,000 feet, more than a mile higher than any previous test. During the test, the X-38 reached transonic speeds, velocities at the fringes of the sound barrier, as it flew free of the aircraft for almost a minute, descending three miles before its drogue parachute was deployed. The drogue parachute slowed the vehicle from over 500 miles per hour to about 60 miles an hour, setting the stage for deployment of the 7,500-square-foot-parafoil wing. The X-38's parafoil is the largest parafoil ever built with a surface area more than one and a half times that of the wings of a 747 jumbo jet. Descending under the parafoil, the X-38's proposed cockpit displays and controls were tested as an astronaut pilot remotely controlled portions of the craft's descent. Today's flight test also continued checkouts of European Space Agency-developed software that guides the parafoil, steering the X-38 to a safe landing. After a 12-minute gliding descent, the uncrewed X-38 touched down at a speed of less than 40 miles an hour on the clay surface of Rogers Dry Lake on Edwards Air Force Base, CA. Today's flight also successfully tested new X-38 flight control software modes specifically designed for a vehicle returning from space; improvements to the drogue parachute deployment; and enhancements to the parafoil's landing accuracy. The test was the third X-38 mission using the parafoil sized for the actual space flight CRV. The test also was the third flight of an X-38 shape that includes a semicircular cross section aft end. The European-influenced semicircular aft end could allow the X-38 to be compatible with launch on expendable vehicles. The X-38 project combines proven technologies -- a shape borrowed from a 1970s Air Force project -- with some of the most cutting-edge aerospace technology available today. Although the United States has led the development of the X-38, international space agencies also are participating. Contributing countries include Germany, Belgium, Italy, The Netherlands, France, Spain, Sweden and Switzerland. NASA’s Johnson Space Center, Houston, Texas, leads the X-38 project and builds the test vehicles. NASA’s Dryden Flight Research Center flight tests the evolving X-38s. ------=_NextPart_000_0109_01C19B49.8D7BE730 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="SandCastle Contractors, Inc. Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="SandCastle Contractors, Inc. Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Parker;L. FN:L. Clayton Parker (E-mail) ORG:SandCastle Contractors, Inc. TEL;WORK;VOICE:(850) 650-6588 TEL;HOME;VOICE:(850) 654-4773 TEL;CELL;VOICE:(850) 585-5502 TEL;CAR;VOICE:(850) 585-5504 TEL;WORK;FAX:(850) 650-6588 ADR;WORK:;;P.O. Box 1762;Destin;FL;32540-1762 LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:P.O. Box 1762=3D0D=3D0ADestin, FL = 32540-1762 EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:lparker@cacaphony.net REV:20011020T212607Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_0109_01C19B49.8D7BE730-- From VM Mon Jan 14 10:19:15 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3293" "Saturday" "12" "January" "2002" "09:17:24" "-0600" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "75" "starship-design: X Prize Competitors Move Ahead For First Manned Test Flights" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "starship-design: X Prize Competitors Move Ahead For First Manned Test Flights" nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3293 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0CFI57D005297 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2002 07:18:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) id g0CFI5Z9005296 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 12 Jan 2002 07:18:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@traffic.gnt.net [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0CFI47D005289 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2002 07:18:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadsword (user121.net241.fl.sprint-hsd.net [64.45.208.121]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id JAA09819 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2002 09:17:57 -0600 Message-ID: <010c01c19b7c$3db69370$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_010D_01C19B49.F31C2370" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design List \(E-mail\)" Subject: starship-design: X Prize Competitors Move Ahead For First Manned Test Flights Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 09:17:24 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_010D_01C19B49.F31C2370 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X Prize Competitors Move Ahead For First Manned Test Flights St Louis Dec 10, 2001 X Prize competitor Steven Bennett of Cheshire, UK recently completed an unmanned launch of his Nova spacecraft, becoming the fourth X Prize entrant to successfully fly a spacecraft prototype that eventually will take citizens to space. Bennett is planning a piloted launch in Spring 2002, the next step in his quest to capture the $10 million X Prize. The St. Louis-based X Prize Foundation is awarding $10 million to the first privately funded person or team to fly a three-person spacecraft to 100km on two flights within two weeks. The first space-based incentive prize of its kind, the X Prize is modeled after the Orteig Prize, won by Charles Lindbergh in 1927 for his historic transatlantic flight in the Spirit of St. Louis. Bennett is one of 21 registered competitors from five countries vying for the X Prize. "The goal of the X Prize is to open space to tourism. Steve Bennett's successful test flight puts our dream of getting to space one step closer," said Peter H. Diamandis, founder and chairman, X Prize Foundation. "His flight demonstrates the ability of small, entrepreneurial teams from the private sector to successfully build technology which was previously only possible by large governments." "Following our success with Nova we will push ahead with a full-scale test launch of our X Prize vehicle, Thunderbird, next year with the goal of making an assault on the X Prize within 18 months," said Bennett. "We intend to win the X Prize and open space for everyone." Asked about when he expects a winner, Diamandis commented, "The X Prize has more than eight teams who are building and demonstrating hardware. We expect an increased number of test flights in 2002 and hope to have a winner before the 100th anniversary flight in 2003." In 1999 Burt Rutan flew Proteus, the "first stage" of his two-stage X Prize entry, and Mike Kelly successfully demonstrated his patented "tow- launch" technology. In 2000, the Argentinean X Prize team carried a scale model of their capsule to 100,000 feet, successfully recovering the space capsule following its re-entry into the earth's atmosphere. Earlier this year, both X Prize Canadian teams, daVinci Project and Canadian Arrow unveiled full-scale mock-ups of their vehicles. ------=_NextPart_000_010D_01C19B49.F31C2370 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="SandCastle Contractors, Inc. Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="SandCastle Contractors, Inc. Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Parker;L. FN:L. Clayton Parker (E-mail) ORG:SandCastle Contractors, Inc. TEL;WORK;VOICE:(850) 650-6588 TEL;HOME;VOICE:(850) 654-4773 TEL;CELL;VOICE:(850) 585-5502 TEL;CAR;VOICE:(850) 585-5504 TEL;WORK;FAX:(850) 650-6588 ADR;WORK:;;P.O. Box 1762;Destin;FL;32540-1762 LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:P.O. Box 1762=3D0D=3D0ADestin, FL = 32540-1762 EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:lparker@cacaphony.net REV:20011020T212607Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_010D_01C19B49.F31C2370-- From VM Mon Jan 14 10:19:15 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["896" "Sunday" "13" "January" "2002" "17:49:28" "-0000" "Sci" "scifox@asylum30.freeserve.co.uk" nil "20" "starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 896 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0DHiO7D026915 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 09:44:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) id g0DHiObT026914 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 09:44:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from imailg3.svr.pol.co.uk (imailg3.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.181]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0DHiM7D026909 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 09:44:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from modem-43.eressea.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.199.43] helo=poit) by imailg3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 16Pog9-0005aG-00 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 17:44:21 +0000 Message-ID: <001301c19c5a$a6741660$2bc7883e@poit> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Sci" From: "Sci" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design" Subject: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 17:49:28 -0000 Hi, I'm new to this list, so I thought I'd say hello to start with. My name's Peter and I've had an interest in space travel for as long as I can remember. For just over a year and a half I've been working with high vacuum equipment, so I have a bit of a hardware bent on the subject, and amoung other ideas, I have thoughts on a modular, vacuum-tight construction system. I currently reside in Hastings, UK, but will shortly be moving back to London. I did have a question also, sorta to kick it all off. Does anyone have any idea what sort of population base would be required for a collony? Not just for the people, but for the livestock and whathaveyou. I can see problems with genetic diversity and so on, if the starting populations are too small. Worse case situation, they may be stuck on that world for good. My best wishes, and hoping this is not off-topic or anything, Peter From VM Mon Jan 14 10:19:15 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2644" "Sunday" "13" "January" "2002" "12:07:55" "-0700" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "54" "Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2644 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0DJ9N7D017512 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 11:09:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) id g0DJ9Nf7017511 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 11:09:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0DJ9M7D017481 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 11:09:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (gc-jet-198.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.198]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA21928; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 12:09:12 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3C41DB0B.6C9CC258@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <001301c19c5a$a6741660$2bc7883e@poit> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Sci CC: starship-design Subject: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 12:07:55 -0700 Sci wrote: > > Hi, I'm new to this list, so I thought I'd say hello to start with. My > name's Peter and I've had an interest in space travel for as long as I can > remember. For just over a year and a half I've been working with high > vacuum equipment, so I have a bit of a hardware bent on the subject, and > amoung other ideas, I have thoughts on a modular, vacuum-tight construction > system. > I currently reside in Hastings, UK, but will shortly be moving back to > London. Mostly people here have been talking about deep space travel, but it nice to get back to closer travel. I could talk for days since I don't like the 'Big Project' method of space travel. I would like to see small payload size stuff - 500 lbs - 200 Kg with twice a day launches Mon-friday. Having read allot 'Mother Earth News' in my youth I like the small community do it yourself view point. I think space-stations need to be built in space by hand. If you can't built it by hand you can't fix it by hand. I favor too a 3 wall construction. vacuum #[air]#[air]#[people]. Air pressure is different in all 3 chambers, thus if you get a leak you can tell, and send somebody in to fixit. > I did have a question also, sorta to kick it all off. Does anyone have any > idea what sort of population base would be required for a collony? Not just > for the people, but for the livestock and whathaveyou. I can see problems > with genetic diversity and so on, if the starting populations are too small. > Worse case situation, they may be stuck on that world for good. I think 35-50 people are minimum for clan/small village. 500-750 for a village/small city state. Looking at pre-historic towns/cities is the best information I give for base populations. The real problem is the base population needed to keep the technology bootstapable and reparable. I favor too 1960's to 1980's technology as a base standard. Take computers - they are mass market throw away products today. On a space station you may have 2000 people ( nice round number ) with 500 computers. Replacement and repair of said products could be 25 a month. I really don't want to wait 6 months for parts for the life support computer from Terra but repair it on site - how long can you hold your breath?. However the latest qwark-2000 technology chip factory costs $30,000,000,000.00 $.Our budget is only $30,000,000.000 for the next 5 years. > My best wishes, and hoping this is not off-topic or anything, > > Peter PS. Need a computer for a space station? I am working on a nice 12/24 bit cpu.:) -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From VM Mon Jan 14 10:19:15 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1701" "Sunday" "13" "January" "2002" "11:49:01" "-0800" "Curtis Manges" "clmanges@yahoo.com" nil "44" "Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1701 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0DJn37D025842 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 11:49:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) id g0DJn2wh025841 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 11:49:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13602.mail.yahoo.com (web13602.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.113]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with SMTP id g0DJn27D025836 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 11:49:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20020113194901.34097.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.148.88.3] by web13602.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 11:49:01 PST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Curtis Manges From: Curtis Manges Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design Subject: Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 11:49:01 -0800 (PST) --- Ben Franchuk wrote: . I favor too 1960's to 1980's technology as a base > standard. > Take computers - they are mass market throw away products today. On > a space station you may have 2000 people ( nice round number ) with > 500 computers. Ben, I think you've seriously underestimated the computer needs of an extraterrestrial colony. Going with your population assumption, I think that first, each member of the colony will need access to their own computer, since, by necessity, each colony member must likely be some sort of technician. There's 2000 computers to start. Add to that a large number of autonomous processors needed to run the various life-support and mechanical needs of the station, and you'll want some of these to be redundant for the critical stuff. Add some for portable test equipment, possible traffic control, communications, etc, etc. Then, if the colony is somewhere with an "outdoors" (Luna, Mars, wherever), you'll need a few for exploration and resource collection. I'm not going to guess at a total, but I'm quite sure that it will be a lot higher than 500. Standardize the parts that may need replacement, and keep a stash of spares on hand, enough at least so as not to be forced into running the station in a crisis mode. If the colony needs to expand, you can ship up some more with the other needed imports. The big downside of the standardization is that hardware upgrades become an enormous headache. What think ye? Keep looking up, Curtis ===== get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ From VM Mon Jan 14 10:19:15 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1270" "Sunday" "13" "January" "2002" "15:51:27" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "36" "Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1270 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0DKpg7D012287 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 12:51:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) id g0DKpgaV012284 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 12:51:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-m04.mx.aol.com (imo-m04.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.7]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0DKpf7D012277 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 12:51:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.9.) id d.109.bb9f5e7 (3733); Sun, 13 Jan 2002 15:51:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <109.bb9f5e7.29734d4f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: scifox@asylum30.freeserve.co.uk, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 15:51:27 EST In a message dated 1/13/02 11:45:18 AM, scifox@asylum30.freeserve.co.uk writes: >I did have a question also, sorta to kick it all off. Does anyone have any >idea what sort of population base would be required for a collony? Not just >for the people, but for the livestock and whathaveyou. I can see problems >with genetic diversity and so on, if the starting populations are too small. >Worse case situation, they may be stuck on that world for good. Well realistically your probably stuck in the ship, or a space statino, rather then on a planet. Theirs little chance of finding a planet like earth, and nearly none that a Earth like planet wouldn't have life forms (especialy microbes) too lethal to coexist with. So your not talking little house on the prarie with farms and ranches. Instead you'ld be living in space regardless of any planets anything like earth in the starsystem. Anthropologists suggest you need a population of millions to have enough people to have all the skills and do all the jobs to sustain a complex technical society like ours -- much less one living in a starship or space platform. >My best wishes, and hoping this is not off-topic or anything, Seems on topic to me. ;) Welcom to the group. > >Peter Kelly From VM Mon Jan 14 10:19:15 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1864" "Sunday" "13" "January" "2002" "16:12:43" "EST" "Hexagram14@aol.com" "Hexagram14@aol.com" nil "33" "Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1864 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0DLD37D016891 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 13:13:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) id g0DLD38C016890 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 13:13:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-d10.mx.aol.com (imo-d10.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.42]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0DLD27D016877 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 13:13:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from Hexagram14@aol.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_gc_dev1.2.) id z.192.109582f (24897) for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 16:12:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <192.109582f.2973524b@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_192.109582f.2973524b_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Hexagram14@aol.com From: Hexagram14@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 16:12:43 EST --part1_192.109582f.2973524b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/13/2002 3:52:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, KellySt@aol.com writes: > Well realistically your probably stuck in the ship, or a space station, > rather then on a planet. Theirs little chance of finding a planet like > earth, and nearly none that an Earth like planet wouldn't have life forms > (especially microbes) too lethal to coexist with. Highly doubtful - Earthly microbes have evolved to attack Earthly lifeforms, and it's very likely alien microbes would be the same way - they'd find us quite indigestible! --part1_192.109582f.2973524b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/13/2002 3:52:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, KellySt@aol.com writes:


Well realistically your probably stuck in the ship, or a space station,
rather then on a planet.  Theirs little chance of finding a planet like
earth, and nearly none that an Earth like planet wouldn't have life forms
(especially microbes) too lethal to coexist with.


Highly doubtful - Earthly microbes have evolved to attack Earthly lifeforms, and it's very likely alien microbes would be the same way - they'd find us quite indigestible! --part1_192.109582f.2973524b_boundary-- From VM Mon Jan 14 10:19:15 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1658" "Sunday" "13" "January" "2002" "15:28:14" "-0800" "Curtis Manges" "clmanges@yahoo.com" nil "52" "Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1658 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0DNSJ7D023003 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 15:28:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) id g0DNSJBn023002 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 15:28:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13601.mail.yahoo.com (web13601.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.112]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with SMTP id g0DNSI7D022992 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 15:28:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20020113232814.18050.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.148.89.55] by web13601.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 15:28:14 PST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Curtis Manges From: Curtis Manges Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 15:28:14 -0800 (PST) Ben Franchuk wrote: > Paper! This is what is scare in space not computers.I must have > used > over 2,500 sheets of paper over over the last 2 years on my > homebrew > computers and I have not started past the prototype stage. Here I > was talking about the big clunky things on your desk, or at least > on my computer. Interesting outlook, but I think everyone will still want access to a PC, and, as long as it's there . . . As far as what most paper is used for, it can be replaced with white boards, chalk boards, and the good ole Magic Slate. But you have a good point; paper would be an important finite resource. > > Each person needs to be a handyman. Leave the complex stuff to > people > with the training. > > > I expect a 10x larger ratio here for control computers, > but remember a computer is a complex thing. Not every thing needs a > computer -- when was the last time you > saw a digital toilet. Coming soon to a dealer near you . . . no kidding. > Everything needs to be repariable/recyclable > not computerized. > Being self sufficient is very important for a habitat in space! > BOOTSTRAP -- remember that key word. I fully agree with this. People are putting processors into things like toasters, now, just because they can, and because they think it'll sell more goods. A space colony could not afford to operate on this kind of thinking. And, when you think about it, we can't either, at least not indefinitely. Keep looking up, Curtis ===== get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ From VM Mon Jan 14 10:19:15 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["834" "Sunday" "13" "January" "2002" "17:59:55" "-0700" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "21" "Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 834 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0E11F7D020458 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 17:01:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) id g0E11FLt020457 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 17:01:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0E11D7D020432 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 17:01:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (gc-jet-198.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.198]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA06497 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 18:01:07 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3C422D8B.72806A9B@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20020113232814.18050.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu CC: starship-design Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 17:59:55 -0700 Curtis Manges wrote: > Interesting outlook, but I think everyone will still want access to a > PC, and, as long as it's there . . . Got any ideas for a small space ready computer - let me know while I still have paper left. :) > I fully agree with this. People are putting processors into things > like toasters, now, just because they can, and because they think > it'll sell more goods. A space colony could not afford to operate on > this kind of thinking. And, when you think about it, we can't either, > at least not indefinitely. The other problem is that a space colony is not fast a money maker. You want people thinking about 25+ years investment, not what is fast cash next week. I don't want a space colony to be a 'company town'. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From VM Mon Jan 14 10:19:16 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2537" "Monday" "14" "January" "2002" "14:09:40" "-0000" "Sci" "scifox@asylum30.freeserve.co.uk" nil "49" "Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2537 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0EE4i7D003916 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 06:04:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) id g0EE4iVj003915 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 06:04:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.svr.pol.co.uk (mail1.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.18]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0EE4c7D003899 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 06:04:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from modem-10.arvenien.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.128.138] helo=poit) by mail1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 16Q7j2-0003tn-00 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 14:04:37 +0000 Message-ID: <001701c19d05$1f2face0$8a80883e@poit> References: <20020113232814.18050.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> <3C422D8B.72806A9B@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Sci" From: "Sci" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design" Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 14:09:40 -0000 > > Interesting outlook, but I think everyone will still want access to a > > PC, and, as long as it's there . . . > > Got any ideas for a small space ready computer - let me know while > I still have paper left. :) Well, I had a few thoughts (while watching Lost In Space, of all things.). First, the bit most likely to get damaged is going to be the interface. Namely screen and keyboard. Millitary-type risc processors are pretty reliable and don't need much in the way of cooling. The way I thought, you'd want the actuall processing/storage units to be seperate from the UI. One thought was a LCD touchscreen & flatpanel-speaker module, that could be as standard, and be interchangeable with all terminals. Graphics and sound processors all built into the module, with a flash memory unit that could set up the interface to whatever it's being pluged into. Being plugged into the environmental controls? The control processor uploads the display protocols to the flash memory, and it's ready to run. Keeping the computer system in standardised but modular units, would make both repairs and upgrades a lot easier. What I am not saying though is that these should be the only units. the computer makes certain jobs faster, but you need a manual backup. Actuall valves you can turn, switches you can flip. In the worst cases of all, you can grip a wrench onto a valve and turn it, or short two wires together, something you can't do with a computer. > > I fully agree with this. People are putting processors into things > > like toasters, now, just because they can, and because they think > > it'll sell more goods. A space colony could not afford to operate on > > this kind of thinking. And, when you think about it, we can't either, > > at least not indefinitely. Again, things essential to life and safety should be maintained in as mechanical a sence as possible. All things wear out eventually, but keeping things within the range of someone with some sheet metal and a soldering iron might be a good idea. > The other problem is that a space colony is not fast a money maker. > You want people thinking about 25+ years investment, not what is fast > cash next week. I don't want a space colony to be a 'company town'. What I can imagine is possibly some large space-faring organisation, transporting collonists to another planet/world/station/whatever and helping them get setup, in return for produce, minerals, etc.., until their dept is paid up, at which point they are declared autonomous. Thoughts? Peter From VM Mon Jan 14 10:19:16 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1877" "Monday" "14" "January" "2002" "08:25:14" "-0600" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "35" "Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1877 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0EEPr7D008395 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 06:25:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) id g0EEPrhr008394 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 06:25:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@traffic.gnt.net [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0EEPp7D008388 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 06:25:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadsword (user121.net241.fl.sprint-hsd.net [64.45.208.121]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id IAA21354; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 08:25:49 -0600 Message-ID: <003f01c19d07$492a5ed0$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-reply-To: <001701c19d05$1f2face0$8a80883e@poit> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "'Sci'" Cc: "Starship-Design List \(E-mail\)" Subject: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 08:25:14 -0600 Peter et. al. The U.S. Army developed and procured a bunch of laptops some years ago that were manufactured by a company named Grid I believe. They were actually more of a portable computer, because I wouldn't call anything weighing 17 pounds a laptop. Anyway, they were designed for "rough use" with all metal cases, durable plasma displays rather than the more colorful but ultimately fragile LCDs and waterproof membrane keyboards. They were also Tempest hardened. They weren't designed for vacuum or space, but I suspect they would have survived exposure to such conditions while they were not operating. All that said, the biggest problem is that CPU hardening for radiation environments lags anywhere from two to three generations behind what is sitting on most people's desks. For personal computers designed for use inside a ship or space colony where they are not critical systems and aren't likely to be exposed to conditions that wouldn't prove fatal to their users as well it probably wouldn't matter if they were radiation hardened or not. But for the critical computer systems that actually run the ship, navigation, engineering, environmental, etc., you would want the most durable, reliable cpu you could get that also had enough processing power to do what needed to be done. This could be tough trade off. It may even be necessary to use distributed processing to get it all done. Which of course brings us to the ship/colonies other need: a 100 percent uptime network. No failures, no shutdowns, no restarts, no lost packets, no bottlenecks -- zero. Can't have the ship not firing thrusters because the server's network card burped and restarted the network... Probably you would actually want several networks, some less critical than others, but with access nodes between them that were software routable. Kind of like the Internet, but better. Lee From VM Mon Jan 14 11:10:23 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3443" "Sunday" "13" "January" "2002" "23:19:44" "-0700" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "75" "Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3443 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0EJ9k7D005011 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 11:09:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) id g0EJ9jKY005009 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 11:09:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0EJ9h7D004991 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 11:09:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (gc-jet-200.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.200]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA05187 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 12:09:40 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3C427880.EA987331@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20020113232814.18050.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> <3C422D8B.72806A9B@jetnet.ab.ca> <001701c19d05$1f2face0$8a80883e@poit> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu CC: starship-design Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 23:19:44 -0700 Sci wrote: > Well, I had a few thoughts (while watching Lost In Space, of all things.). S o what is wrong with the computer from lost in space the B205. Tubes and core memory work well in Cosmic radiation, and you even get a free radiation meter too if you use the Jupiter model. :) Also I read that a inch of water protected life in the sea from cosmic radiation when the earth was young. A shell of water or ice would have two advantages - protection from radiation - large mass to stabilize a rotating habit. > First, the bit most likely to get damaged is going to be the interface. > Namely screen and keyboard. Millitary-type risc processors are pretty > reliable and don't need much in the way of cooling. > The way I thought, you'd want the actuall processing/storage units to be > seperate from the UI. Modular is a good plan. Graphics are still a big problem with LCD's. 640 x 200 is a high res screen unless you want pay $$$K. LCD's also don't handle the cold well. > One thought was a LCD touchscreen & flatpanel-speaker module, that could be > as standard, and be interchangeable with all terminals. Graphics and sound > processors all built into the module, with a flash memory unit that could > set up the interface to whatever it's being pluged into. Being plugged into > the environmental controls? The control processor uploads the display > protocols to the flash memory, and it's ready to run. > Keeping the computer system in standardised but modular units, would make > both repairs and upgrades a lot easier. I still like the Star-Trek style displays where scotty could look at a board and say "the dylithum crystals can't take any more captain". Remember too larger the environmental system more margin you have for repair. You want to find the right size where you have hours of margin not minutes. > > What I am not saying though is that these should be the only units. the > computer makes certain jobs faster, but you need a manual backup. Actuall > valves you can turn, switches you can flip. In the worst cases of all, you > can grip a wrench onto a valve and turn it, or short two wires together, > something you can't do with a computer. Lets not forget to kick the thing! > > > I fully agree with this. People are putting processors into things > > > like toasters, now, just because they can, and because they think > > > it'll sell more goods. A space colony could not afford to operate on > > > this kind of thinking. And, when you think about it, we can't either, > > > at least not indefinitely. Also cheaper too in some aspects. A $.50 cpu may be over kill but saves $.75 from something else. > Again, things essential to life and safety should be maintained in as > mechanical a sence as possible. All things wear out eventually, but keeping > things within the range of someone with some sheet metal and a soldering > iron might be a good idea. Plastics may recycle better than metal. One you are in space you may be able to fabricate 'new' materials. > What I can imagine is possibly some large space-faring organisation, > transporting collonists to another planet/world/station/whatever and helping > them get setup, in return for produce, minerals, etc.., until their dept is > paid up, at which point they are declared autonomous. > Thoughts? I don't trust large companies. > Peter -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From VM Mon Jan 14 16:14:42 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["767" "Monday" "14" "January" "2002" "16:13:51" "-0800" "Curtis Manges" "clmanges@yahoo.com" nil "30" "Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 767 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0F0DqJb029059 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 16:13:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0F0DqmI029058 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 16:13:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13601.mail.yahoo.com (web13601.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.112]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g0F0DpJb029047 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 16:13:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20020115001351.19743.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.148.90.10] by web13601.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 16:13:51 PST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Curtis Manges From: Curtis Manges Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 16:13:51 -0800 (PST) --- Ben Franchuk wrote: > > Plastics may recycle better than metal. One you are in space you > may > be able to fabricate 'new' materials. Read "Mining the Sky" by John S. Lewis > > > What I can imagine is possibly some large space-faring > organisation, > > transporting collonists to another planet/world/station/whatever > and helping > > them get setup, in return for produce, minerals, etc.., until > their dept is > > paid up, at which point they are declared autonomous. Read "Logic of Empire" by Robert A. Heinlein keep looking up, Curtis ===== get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ From VM Mon Jan 14 16:57:35 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1936" "Monday" "14" "January" "2002" "16:42:09" "-0800" "Curtis Manges" "clmanges@yahoo.com" nil "56" "Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1936 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0F0gAJb014237 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 16:42:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0F0gAdd014234 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 16:42:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13604.mail.yahoo.com (web13604.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.115]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g0F0g9Jb014225 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 16:42:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20020115004209.42012.qmail@web13604.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.148.90.10] by web13604.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 16:42:09 PST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Curtis Manges From: Curtis Manges Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design Subject: Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 16:42:09 -0800 (PST) --- "L. Parker" wrote: > > Peter et. al. > > Which of course brings us to the ship/colonies other need: a 100 > percent > uptime network. No failures, no shutdowns, no restarts, no lost > packets, no > bottlenecks -- zero. Can't have the ship not firing thrusters > because the > server's network card burped and restarted the network... > > Probably you would actually want several networks, some less > critical than > others, but with access nodes between them that were software > routable. Kind > of like the Internet, but better. > > Lee > Maybe my mention of redundancy reflects old-fashioned thinking that is still in use, but I see a redundant system set up such that, if one of the units goes down, its partner (or maybe a separate, independent monitoring system) yells for a replacement. Redundancy is, you know, the current approach used in lots of critical aircraft systems. Yes, it would be nice to have a system so robust that it needs no backup, but until one is proven to exist, it may be more effective all around to double up on the really important stuff. I do not like thinking in terms of having more time to fix something just because it's bigger. Prudence dictates setting the system up to avoid having to operate in crisis mode. Interestingly, this may involve the planned obsolesence or even planned failure, as it were, of certain parts. Remember the Wonderful One-Horse Shay? Every part of it was equally perfect, and when it wore out, the whole thing disintegrated simultaneously. You do not want that to happen in space. This is all a round-about way of giving Lee credit for the network idea; sort of another way of approaching the issue of emergency backups. keep looking up, Curtis ===== get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ From VM Mon Jan 14 18:22:03 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["811" "Monday" "14" "January" "2002" "21:21:28" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "22" "Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 811 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0F2LiJb026089 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 18:21:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0F2LifA026088 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 18:21:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-r10.mx.aol.com (imo-r10.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.106]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0F2LgJb026079 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 18:21:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-r10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.9.) id z.ad.16917502 (25098); Mon, 14 Jan 2002 21:21:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Hexagram14@aol.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 21:21:28 EST In a message dated 1/13/02 3:13:45 PM, Hexagram14@aol.com writes: >> Well realistically your probably stuck in the ship, or a space station, > >> rather then on a planet. Theirs little chance of finding a planet like > >> earth, and nearly none that an Earth like planet wouldn't have life forms > >> (especially microbes) too lethal to coexist with. > >Highly doubtful - Earthly microbes have evolved to attack Earthly lifeforms, > >and it's very likely alien microbes would be the same way - they'd find >us >quite indigestible! As long as they ae based on something like our chemistry, we'll be digestable to simple fungi and microbes - ones we have no defence to. And on earth the worst plagues are from microbes or viruses hiting a species they never normally infect. AIDS or Ebola for example. From VM Tue Jan 15 10:06:50 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["637" "Monday" "14" "January" "2002" "03:07:03" "-0700" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "19" "starship-design: books and stuff" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 637 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0F2srJb006935 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 18:54:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0F2srN7006934 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 18:54:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0F2spJb006927 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 18:54:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (gc-jet-217.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.217] (may be forged)) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA27148 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 19:54:50 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3C42ADC7.6B65C440@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20020115001351.19743.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu CC: starship-design Subject: starship-design: books and stuff Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 03:07:03 -0700 Curtis Manges wrote: > Read "Mining the Sky" by John S. Lewis > Read "Logic of Empire" by Robert A. Heinlein I will have to pass on the books since I doubt if I can get them from the local tiny library. On the topic of redundant systems, you still have to watch for cascading problems with a non-diverse systems. The major system is the electrical system - with out power you are left in the dark. I like the idea of beamed power for space craft (solar energy?) thus a failure of generator can be replaced with a spare floating around in space. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From VM Tue Jan 15 10:06:50 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2808" "Monday" "14" "January" "2002" "22:11:29" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "90" "Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2808 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0F3CAJb012091 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 19:12:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0F3CAdV012081 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 19:12:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-d01.mx.aol.com (imo-d01.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.33]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0F3C9Jb012043 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 19:12:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-d01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.25.) id z.161.7252dc4 (14374); Mon, 14 Jan 2002 22:11:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <161.7252dc4.2974f7e1@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 22:11:29 EST In a message dated 1/14/02 1:10:58 PM, bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca writes: >Sci wrote: >> Well, I had a few thoughts (while watching Lost In Space, of all things.). > >So what is wrong with the computer from lost in space the B205. >Tubes and core memory work well in Cosmic radiation, and you even get >a free radiation meter too if you use the Jupiter model. :) A tube and core based computer with the capacity of my wrist watch, would fill a 18 wheeler. A standard home computers CPU chip alone has the equivelent of millions of tubes. You could never keep a tube based computerthat big operating because of the constant breakdown of tubes. >Also I read that a inch of water protected life in the sea from >cosmic radiation when the earth was young. A shell of water or ice >would have two advantages - protection from radiation - large mass >to stabilize a rotating habit. It takes more then that in space. The equive of a couple feet of steel. > >> >> What I am not saying though is that these should be the only units. >the >> computer makes certain jobs faster, but you need a manual backup. Actuall >> valves you can turn, switches you can flip. In the worst cases of all, >you >> can grip a wrench onto a valve and turn it, or short two wires together, >> something you can't do with a computer. > >Lets not forget to kick the thing! Abnout as likely to be usefull in repairing a fusion drive., ;/ > >> > > I fully agree with this. People are putting processors into things >> > > like toasters, now, just because they can, and because they think >> > > it'll sell more goods. A space colony could not afford to operate >on >> > > this kind of thinking. And, when you think about it, we can't either, >> > > at least not indefinitely. > >Also cheaper too in some aspects. A $.50 cpu may be over kill >but saves $.75 from something else. True. >> Again, things essential to life and safety should be maintained in as >> mechanical a sence as possible. All things wear out eventually, but >keeping >> things within the range of someone with some sheet metal and a soldering >> iron might be a good idea. > >Plastics may recycle better than metal. One you are in space you may >be able to fabricate 'new' materials. Metal is about the most easily recylclable material known, but plastics are a good secound. Oddly, the "green" materials like wood, paper, etc are the hardest to recycle. >> What I can imagine is possibly some large space-faring organisation, >> transporting collonists to another planet/world/station/whatever and >helping >> them get setup, in return for produce, minerals, etc.., until their dept >is >> paid up, at which point they are declared autonomous. >> Thoughts? >I don't trust large companies. And you trust govs more?? >> Peter From VM Tue Jan 15 10:06:50 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1795" "Monday" "14" "January" "2002" "19:23:15" "-0800" "Curtis Manges" "clmanges@yahoo.com" nil "49" "Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1795 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0F3NGJb015914 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 19:23:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0F3NG1P015913 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 19:23:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13604.mail.yahoo.com (web13604.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.115]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g0F3NFJb015908 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 19:23:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20020115032315.60241.qmail@web13604.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.148.92.221] by web13604.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 19:23:15 PST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Curtis Manges From: Curtis Manges Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design Subject: Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 19:23:15 -0800 (PST) --- KellySt@aol.com wrote: > From: KellySt@aol.com > Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 21:21:30 EST > Subject: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie > To: clmanges@yahoo.com > > > In a message dated 1/13/02 5:28:33 PM, clmanges@yahoo.com writes: > > >I fully agree with this. People are putting processors into things > >like toasters, now, just because they can, and because they think > >it'll sell more goods. A space colony could not afford to operate > on > >this kind of thinking. And, when you think about it, we can't > either, > >at least not indefinitely. > > > Actually the micro processors ae actually cheaper. > > Past that, what do you mean by the second part? Just that, when you think of our home as "spaceship Earth," we are already living in a (more or less) sealed system with finite resources, and our consumptive lifestyle is plundering the very stuff that is vital to our survival over the long haul. We don't recognize the damage we're doing because our "ship" is so big, but -- well, I think you get the idea; it's our throw-away mentality, fueled by commercialism. And, I'm sticking with my belief that microprocessors are being introduced in places they aren't needed. In that, I agree with Ben -- keep it as simple as possible, and you can repair the thing instead of having to toss it. A microprocessor does not make toast, but if it fails in your toaster, then who's going to fix the thing? Agreed, they do make a lot of things work better, and at a low cost, but we need to learn the difference between necessity and glitz for the sake of more sales. I hate being preachy. Curtis ===== get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ From VM Tue Jan 15 16:30:28 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1009" "Tuesday" "15" "January" "2002" "16:28:52" "-0800" "Curtis Manges" "clmanges@yahoo.com" nil "36" "Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1009 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0G0SuJb018470 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 16:28:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0G0Sus1018469 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 16:28:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13607.mail.yahoo.com (web13607.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.118]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g0G0StJb018448 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 16:28:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20020116002852.84606.qmail@web13607.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.148.90.199] by web13607.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 16:28:52 PST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Curtis Manges From: Curtis Manges Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design Subject: Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 16:28:52 -0800 (PST) --- KellySt@aol.com wrote: > From: KellySt@aol.com > Fitnite resources equivlent to about to 200,000,000,000 cubic miles > of stuff. Please to derive this figure for me . . . > Every estimate is that with the resources we know of, we couldn't > run out > resources in any conceavable range of history. Assuming we never > upgrade our > tech, or really ever do recycling much more then now. Have you been paying attention? In the last two hundred years, we've already succeeded in altering the composition of our atmosphere to the point that, if we don't change our ways soon, we will definitely run out of history before we run out of resources. > > Our economic system is especially effective at utilizing all > resources most > efficently. Utilizing? I'd say misusing is a more appropriate term. > Curtis ===== get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ From VM Tue Jan 15 18:58:16 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2504" "Tuesday" "15" "January" "2002" "20:59:26" "+0000" "Toxicroach" "toxicroach@swbell.net" nil "71" "Re: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2504 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0G2r4Jb014506 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 18:53:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0G2r4LW014503 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 18:53:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0G2r3Jb014494 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 18:53:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from pavilion ([66.140.72.182]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with SMTP id <0GQ000F97G0B6E@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 20:53:00 -0600 (CST) Message-id: <000801c19e07$84cd6ee0$6235fea9@pavilion> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Toxicroach From: Toxicroach Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 20:59:26 +0000 -----Original Message----- From: Toxicroach To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Date: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 7:38 PM Subject: Re: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Oh wow. Eco-freak on the list. A) Even according to the worst predictions of global warming (coming from Greenpeace &co., who, btw, have a vested interest in creating a popular perception that there is a serious ecological crisis. Never trust people with vested insterests, IMHO), it is nowhere near apocalyptic levels of destruction, as you seem to think. Rio might get wet (and even that is very debatable), but we aren't talking about needing another Ark. Quite a bit of evidence is confusing, to say the least. Antartica, source of the melted ice that will doom us all, for exmaple, is actually getting colder. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40974-2002Jan13.html B) What is the "proper" use of resources, in your opinion? C) Did any of you receive my last email? (longwinded, perhaps boring, about colonization on Mars) I sent it from a different program, no response from anyone, and I didn't receive it from the listserver. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Curtis Manges >To: starship-design >Date: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 12:46 AM >Subject: Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie > > >> >>--- KellySt@aol.com wrote: >>> From: KellySt@aol.com >> >>> Fitnite resources equivlent to about to 200,000,000,000 cubic miles >>> of stuff. >> >>Please to derive this figure for me . . . >> >> >>> Every estimate is that with the resources we know of, we couldn't >>> run out >>> resources in any conceavable range of history. Assuming we never >>> upgrade our >>> tech, or really ever do recycling much more then now. >> >>Have you been paying attention? In the last two hundred years, we've >>already succeeded in altering the composition of our atmosphere to >>the point that, if we don't change our ways soon, we will definitely >>run out of history before we run out of resources. >>> >>> Our economic system is especially effective at utilizing all >>> resources most >>> efficently. >> >>Utilizing? I'd say misusing is a more appropriate term. >>> >>Curtis >> >>===== >>get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com >> >>__________________________________________________ >>Do You Yahoo!? >>Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! >>http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ > From VM Wed Jan 16 11:41:02 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["354" "Tuesday" "15" "January" "2002" "16:23:18" "-0700" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "11" "Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 354 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0G3UZJb025681 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 19:30:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0G3UZfn025680 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 19:30:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0G3UTJb025671 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 19:30:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (gc-jet-202.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.202]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA16231 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 20:30:28 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3C44B9E6.A8E11FAF@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <000801c19e07$84cd6ee0$6235fea9@pavilion> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 16:23:18 -0700 Toxicroach wrote: > C) Did any of you receive my last email? (longwinded, perhaps boring, about > colonization on Mars) I sent it from a different program, no response from > anyone, and I didn't receive it from the listserver. I don't think so! Can you resend? -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From VM Wed Jan 16 11:41:02 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4847" "Tuesday" "15" "January" "2002" "23:02:04" "+0000" "Toxicroach" "toxicroach@swbell.net" nil "96" "Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 4847 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0G4tfJb019830 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 20:55:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0G4texh019828 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 20:55:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0G4tdJb019821 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 20:55:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from pavilion ([66.140.72.182]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with SMTP id <0GQ000FUXLORWV@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 22:55:39 -0600 (CST) Message-id: <000a01c19e18$a602f560$6235fea9@pavilion> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Toxicroach From: Toxicroach Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Ben Franchuk Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 23:02:04 +0000 Here's my previous post. I think you're shooting very very low on the number of computers--- both of you. I think computers would be so common as to not even be really noticed--- they would be beneath the horizon of the crews conscious thought. Even now, how many processors do I have in my apartment? I can only guess--- 1 in my coffee maker, one in my blender, one in my microwave, one in my kitchen clock, 3 in various clocks, minimum of 7 in my entertainment system, 1 in my beard trimmer, one in my computer speakers, one in my monitor, 1 on my printer, and, of course, the 1 I am writing to you with. That's nineteen, and I'm being conservative. And I don't like in a space station--- on wait, add one for my fire alarm. That's twenty so far, add two for my phone and answering machine-- 22. 5 for my stereo that I forgot about, one for my vacuum cleaner, and another for my electric typewriter (my backup. 29. Arguing over the number of computers is silly--- there will be as many as needed, and you won't even have to know about 99% of them. About colonization--- here's the problem--- what's the point of having a space station over an uninhabited planet? Much less a manned one? There isn't really, not that is going to free up the billions of dollars necessary to put one up over Mars (which will be our first conquest--- you guys seem to be supposing that we'll be visiting other solar systems anytime soon--- fraid not.) from any government. The biggest reason we went to the moon was to show up the Soviets for Sputnik. Without some government rivalry of some kind, the space program has gone quietly downhill. (Note: China claims to be going to the moon. New source of public enthusiasm for space travel in the US?) And it's going to be a long time, if ever, before private enterprise is going to be able to come up with the capital to take such a risky (and to many peoples mind, (useless) proposition. To justify manned colonies on Mars, they have to be REAL colonies. Not just the ultimate Space Camp, filled with techies having the time of their lives. Real colonies include having people who don't have master degrees, and maybe even bachelor degrees. Look at history. the colonization of the Americas was not done by the aristocrats and well to do--- it was done by the ambitious poor, who took the risk of going somewhere strange and very dangerous for the chance to make something of themselves and live free. I believe this will be the driving motive behind any interplanetary colonization--- the desire to escape the tyranny and bullshit of the old earth. The great mass of people who will be willing to uproot their lives and go millions of miles to someplace they most likely will never come back from will not be the intellectual elite (for the most part), or the middle class. The people who have nice, cushy lives will not want to go. People trapped in the ghettos, or refugees from whatever new Taliban's that arise in the coming centuries, the religious weirdoes (UFO cults, the Hare Krishna perhaps, Southern Baptists :-), the outcasts, misfits, and science fiction fans will be the ones who fill out the ranks of colonization. Or, in other words, mostly people who may or may not have a high school education. Of course, there are certain technological advances that will be necessary for mass colonization (and thus any sort of real colonization), the chief one being a way to get huge numbers of people to Mars in under a year. Maybe real nuclear rockets, antimatter, laser propelled transports, who knows... but something that makes mass transport in space possible will be necessary, IMHO. Most of a true colonization effort will not be flying around in shuttlecraft--- it will be hard, very hard work, even with the assistance of robots and computers and all the high tech. Some technical education will perhaps be required--- perhaps done one the way to Mars, or before. People will have specific roles they are trained for, but it will not have to be a full understanding of all the issues involved, anymore than the computer on those cars that adjust for rainy weather has to understand meteorology to do it's job. That's my theory. Critique it, please. -----Original Message----- From: Ben Franchuk Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Date: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 3:46 AM Subject: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie >Toxicroach wrote: > >> C) Did any of you receive my last email? (longwinded, perhaps boring, about >> colonization on Mars) I sent it from a different program, no response from >> anyone, and I didn't receive it from the listserver. > >I don't think so! Can you resend? > >-- >Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * >www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From VM Wed Jan 16 11:41:02 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3450" "Tuesday" "15" "January" "2002" "18:22:21" "-0700" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "77" "Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3450 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0G5TXJb000373 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 21:29:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0G5TXKM000372 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 21:29:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0G5TWJb000357 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 21:29:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (gc-jet-202.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.202]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA21595 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 22:29:30 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3C44D5CD.E29D10C8@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <000a01c19e18$a602f560$6235fea9@pavilion> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 18:22:21 -0700 Toxicroach wrote: > > Here's my previous post. > > I think you're shooting very very low on the number of computers--- both of > you. I think computers would be so common > as to not even be really noticed--- they would be beneath the horizon of the > crews conscious thought. I have two and 1/2 working computers here. 486,P150, and a 12/24 bit computer I am building. I use instant coffee and my micro-wave is 100% mechanical - the way I like it. Hi-low-defrost buttons, rotary timer. Why because it is easy to use. Lets not forget hidden computers in TV's,Computer displays,VCR's and DVD's and Audio stuff. This is consumer electronics but not mission critical stuff. Here is a nice (but fictional) computer display of say critical information. http://www.peachprincess.com/Merchant2/full/yessir.jpg While this image is from a forth coming Adult game, I has a nice feel to it for a console. BTW http://www.peachprincess.com has some nice Adult games if you are over 18. > I believe this will be the driving motive behind > any interplanetary colonization--- the desire to > escape the tyranny and bullshit of the old earth. The great mass of people > who will be willing to uproot their lives and go > millions of miles to someplace they most likely will never come back from > will not be the intellectual elite (for the most part), > or the middle class. The people who have nice, cushy lives will not want to > go. People trapped in the ghettos, or > refugees from whatever new Taliban's that arise in the coming centuries, the > religious weirdoes (UFO cults, the Hare > Krishna perhaps, Southern Baptists :-), the outcasts, misfits, and science > fiction fans will be the ones who fill out the ranks > of colonization. Or, in other words, mostly people who may or may not have > a high school education. > Of course, there are certain technological advances that will be necessary > for mass colonization (and thus any sort of real > colonization), the chief one being a way to get huge numbers of people to > Mars in under a year. Thank GOD I got my Mars real-estate before the rush. :) I agree. The problem is nobody wants to develop affordable transportation. Well I want to but $50 a month space cash just will not cut it. I expect near space ( moon - earth orbit - L5 ) then Mars. I favor a solar-plasma drive to MARS. For the cost of fuel $10 ( methane/O2? ) is what it takes to put a 1 lb into orbit is my guess. Assuming a factor of 5x for operating costs that peanuts compared to the cost of $200,000+ a lb now days. > Maybe real nuclear > rockets, antimatter, laser propelled transports, who knows... but something > that makes mass transport in space possible > will be necessary, IMHO. Most of a true colonization effort will not be > flying around in shuttlecraft--- it will be hard, very > hard work, even with the assistance of robots and computers and all the high > tech. Some technical education will > perhaps be required--- perhaps done one the way to Mars, or before. People > will have specific roles they are trained for, > but it will not have to be a full understanding of all the issues involved, > anymore than the computer on those cars that > adjust for rainy weather has to understand meteorology to do it's job. I agree. But who wants to get their hands dirty? Not the suits with the $$$. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From VM Wed Jan 16 11:41:02 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2959" "Wednesday" "16" "January" "2002" "01:34:37" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "119" "Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2959 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0G6YrJb018163 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 22:34:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0G6YrYM018162 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 22:34:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-m10.mx.aol.com (imo-m10.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.165]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0G6YpJb018144 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 22:34:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-m10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.9.) id z.12e.adf4cc0 (4554) for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 01:34:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <12e.adf4cc0.297678fd@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 01:34:37 EST In a message dated 1/15/02 10:56:25 PM, toxicroach@swbell.net writes: > > >About colonization--- here's the problem--- what's the point of having >a > >space station over an uninhabited planet? Much > >less a manned one? There isn't really, not that is going to free up the > >billions of dollars necessary to put one up over Mars > >(which will be our first conquest--- True. Without a practical reason, we won't bother. > you guys seem to be supposing that > >we'll be visiting other solar systems anytime soon--- > >fraid not.) from any government. The biggest reason we went to the moon > >was to show up the Soviets for Sputnik. > >Without some government rivalry of some kind, the space program has gone > >quietly downhill. VERY true! > >before private enterprise is going to be able to come up with the capital >to take such a risky (and to many peoples mind, > >(useless) proposition. Captal isn't the issue. Investment potential is. We could find the money, if it could pay back. > the colonization of the Americas was not done by the > >aristocrats and well to do--- it was done by the > >ambitious poor, who took the risk of going somewhere strange and very > >dangerous for the chance to make something of > >themselves and live free. I believe this will be the driving motive behind > >any interplanetary colonization--- the desire to > >escape the tyranny and bullshit of the old earth. Problem is, you don't need to go very far on earth to do that, and moving to the boonies here - even Alaska - is far easier to do. ;) The great mass of people > >who will be willing to uproot their lives and go > >millions of miles to someplace they most likely will never come back from > >will not be the intellectual elite (for the most part), > >or the middle class. The people who have nice, cushy lives will not want >to > >go. People trapped in the ghettos, or > >refugees from whatever new Taliban's that arise in the coming centuries, >the > >religious weirdoes (UFO cults, the Hare > >Krishna perhaps, Southern Baptists :-), the outcasts, misfits, and science > >fiction fans will be the ones who fill out the ranks > >of colonization. Or, in other words, mostly people who may or may not >have > >a high school education. Here your wrong. Misfits like this couldn't gert financial backing from the nessisary big busnesses (Colonizatin, isn't done with pocket change) or have the skills to operate out there. > >Of course, there are certain technological advances that will be necessary > >for mass colonization (and thus any sort of real > >colonization), the chief one being a way to get huge numbers of people >to > >Mars in under a year. Maybe real nuclear > >rockets, antimatter, laser propelled transports, who knows... but something > >that makes mass transport in space possible > >will be necessary, IMHO. The tech isn't the issue. A motive that justifies building it, is. From VM Wed Jan 16 11:41:02 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1496" "Wednesday" "16" "January" "2002" "01:34:36" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "43" "Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1496 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0G6YpJb018151 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 22:34:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0G6YpVX018150 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 22:34:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-m10.mx.aol.com (imo-m10.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.165]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0G6YnJb018122 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 22:34:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-m10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.9.) id z.ca.4fbf916 (4554) for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 01:34:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 01:34:36 EST In a message dated 1/15/02 8:54:08 PM, toxicroach@swbell.net writes: >Oh wow. Eco-freak on the list. ;) I'm expecting they "how dare we go forth into space when we messed up (mother) Earth so much". >A) Even according to the worst predictions of global warming (coming from >Greenpeace &co., who, btw, have a vested interest in creating a popular >perception that there is a serious ecological crisis. Never trust people >with vested insterests, IMHO), it is nowhere near apocalyptic levels of >destruction, as you seem to think. Rio might get wet (and even that is >very debatable), but we aren't talking about needing another Ark. Quite a bit >of evidence is confusing, to say the least. Antartica, source of the melted >ice that will doom us all, for exmaple, is actually getting colder. > >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40974-2002Jan13.html NASA's sat data was showing global cooling over the last few decadeswhen I was working there, and newer laser sats have seen sighns of sea level dec lining slightly. And yes, groups like HGreenpeace and others openly embrace such dire predictions as a way to force folks to adopt the lifestyle they want. >B) What is the "proper" use of resources, in your opinion? Good question. >C) Did any of you receive my last email? (longwinded, perhaps boring, >about colonization on Mars) I sent it from a different program, no response >from anyone, and I didn't receive it from the listserver. Don't remember it. From VM Wed Jan 16 11:41:02 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5011" "Wednesday" "16" "January" "2002" "01:04:22" "+0000" "Toxicroach" "toxicroach@swbell.net" nil "113" "Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 5011 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0G6w2Jb022802 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 22:58:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0G6w2qG022801 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 22:58:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0G6w1Jb022793 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 22:58:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from pavilion ([66.140.72.182]) by mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with SMTP id <0GQ000J22RCNEZ@mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net> for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 00:58:00 -0600 (CST) Message-id: <000601c19e29$bc301500$6235fea9@pavilion> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Toxicroach From: Toxicroach Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Ben Franchuk Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 01:04:22 +0000 That's precisly my point. If and when we finally build a long term spaceship, the computers are going to be so intergal to the ship as to be indistinguishable. They will not have autonomous computers like PC's... the whole thing will be intergrated as to be a mash of small computers. I'm not a design experyt, but I think it would be wise to design the system to have a flaw-tolerant system, by which I mean that there won't be a single computer processor, or even a bank of them, that handles the mission critical stuff. All the processors, even the ones for the coffee maker, would be able to pitch in and help. If some proccesors were to drop out (by being flawed, damaged, sabotaged, or whatever) then the other chips could pick up the slack. After all, one chip weighs about the same as another--- why not put as powerful a chip as possible in each position, and then make an almost failsafe system. After all, a dispersed system is far more hard to seriously damage, and the computing power needed by the crew for consumer needs is likely going to be neglible compared to the processing power of top of the line mil spec chips that would be used in a spacecraft like that, even for resource hogging stuff like games and audio-visual things. -----Original Message----- From: Ben Franchuk Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Date: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 5:37 AM Subject: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie >Toxicroach wrote: >> >> Here's my previous post. >> >> I think you're shooting very very low on the number of computers--- both of >> you. I think computers would be so common >> as to not even be really noticed--- they would be beneath the horizon of the >> crews conscious thought. > > >I have two and 1/2 working computers here. 486,P150, and a 12/24 bit >computer I am building. I use instant coffee and my >micro-wave is 100% mechanical - the way I like it. Hi-low-defrost >buttons, >rotary timer. Why because it is easy to use. Lets not forget hidden >computers >in TV's,Computer displays,VCR's and DVD's and Audio stuff. This is >consumer >electronics but not mission critical stuff. > >Here is a nice (but fictional) computer display of say critical >information. >http://www.peachprincess.com/Merchant2/full/yessir.jpg >While this image is from a forth coming Adult game, I has a nice >feel to it for a console. >BTW http://www.peachprincess.com has some nice Adult games >if you are over 18. > >> I believe this will be the driving motive behind >> any interplanetary colonization--- the desire to >> escape the tyranny and bullshit of the old earth. The great mass of people >> who will be willing to uproot their lives and go >> millions of miles to someplace they most likely will never come back from >> will not be the intellectual elite (for the most part), >> or the middle class. The people who have nice, cushy lives will not want to >> go. People trapped in the ghettos, or >> refugees from whatever new Taliban's that arise in the coming centuries, the >> religious weirdoes (UFO cults, the Hare >> Krishna perhaps, Southern Baptists :-), the outcasts, misfits, and science >> fiction fans will be the ones who fill out the ranks >> of colonization. Or, in other words, mostly people who may or may not have >> a high school education. >> Of course, there are certain technological advances that will be necessary >> for mass colonization (and thus any sort of real >> colonization), the chief one being a way to get huge numbers of people to >> Mars in under a year. > >Thank GOD I got my Mars real-estate before the rush. :) >I agree. The problem is nobody wants to develop affordable >transportation. >Well I want to but $50 a month space cash just will not cut it. >I expect near space ( moon - earth orbit - L5 ) then Mars. >I favor a solar-plasma drive to MARS. >For the cost of fuel $10 ( methane/O2? ) is what it takes to >put a 1 lb into orbit is my guess. Assuming a factor of 5x for operating >costs >that peanuts compared to the cost of $200,000+ a lb now days. > >> Maybe real nuclear >> rockets, antimatter, laser propelled transports, who knows... but something >> that makes mass transport in space possible >> will be necessary, IMHO. Most of a true colonization effort will not be >> flying around in shuttlecraft--- it will be hard, very >> hard work, even with the assistance of robots and computers and all the high >> tech. Some technical education will >> perhaps be required--- perhaps done one the way to Mars, or before. People >> will have specific roles they are trained for, >> but it will not have to be a full understanding of all the issues involved, >> anymore than the computer on those cars that >> adjust for rainy weather has to understand meteorology to do it's job. > >I agree. But who wants to get their hands dirty? Not the suits with the >$$$. > >-- >Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * >www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From VM Wed Jan 16 11:41:02 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["939" "Wednesday" "16" "January" "2002" "07:50:30" "-0700" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "19" "Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 939 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0GGwMJb001918 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 08:58:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0GGwMjC001915 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 08:58:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0GGwLJb001891 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 08:58:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (gc-jet-193.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.193]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA03295 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 09:58:16 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3C459336.EF02B6D8@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <000601c19e29$bc301500$6235fea9@pavilion> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 07:50:30 -0700 Toxicroach wrote: > > That's precisly my point. If and when we finally build a long term > spaceship, the computers are going to be so intergal to the ship as to be > indistinguishable. They will not have autonomous computers like PC's... the > whole thing will be intergrated as to be a mash of small computers. I'm not > a design experyt, but I think it would be wise to design the system to have > a flaw-tolerant system, by which I mean that there won't be a single > computer processor, or even a bank of them, that handles the mission > critical stuff. This is overkill and senseless as computers are not needed everywhere. I expect a modular design using programmable logic of some kind would be the backbone of the system. Mind you I still like the idea of doing things by hand as the human brain is still the best redundant system. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From VM Wed Jan 16 11:41:02 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6505" "Wednesday" "16" "January" "2002" "19:13:15" "-0000" "Sci" "scifox@asylum30.freeserve.co.uk" nil "128" "Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 6505 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0GJ8DJb011314 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:08:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0GJ8Dxl011313 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:08:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.svr.pol.co.uk (mail2.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.210]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0GJ86Jb011276 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:08:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from modem-80.eressea.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.199.80] helo=poit) by mail2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 16QvPn-0008Gl-00 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 19:08:04 +0000 Message-ID: <005701c19ec1$da710040$50c7883e@poit> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Sci" From: "Sci" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design" Subject: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 19:13:15 -0000 Okay, to save time, I'm cutting and pasting a few replys all into this one Email. =) > Maybe my mention of redundancy reflects old-fashioned thinking that > is still in use, but I see a redundant system set up such that, if > one of the units goes down, its partner (or maybe a separate, > independent monitoring system) yells for a replacement. > Redundancy is, you know, the current approach used in lots of > critical aircraft systems. Yes, it would be nice to have a system so > robust that it needs no backup, but until one is proven to exist, it > may be more effective all around to double up on the really important > stuff. Okay, in my first Email, I breifly mentioned I was working on a modular vacuum walling system. This seems a good time to elaborate a little more, as related ideas are in the "options" package, so to speak. If you're ever seen the toy Contrux (as I think it was called), you'll be imagining something close to what I've come up with. A supporting frame, filled with gasket-sealed panels. I've shown the concept ideas to the cheif designer where I currently work, and he couldn't see any glaring design faults. Anyway you have, say, a corridoor made up of panels and frame (perhaps Speedi-Frame would be another analogy?). Each panel has 4 neighbouring panels. Idealy, you want to know your structure is okay, and what's going on, so really you want a sensor in every panel to say "Yup, hi I'm here, still in one piece" to wherever you want to know that (bridge, engineering, etc..). In each panel, have a small networking module, with a minimal processor (as larger ones would be more susceptable to damage by radiation) and an I/O interface. The interface has the integrity sensor in it, but you can also add more. Fibre-optics are effectivly immune to electrical and magnetic interferance, and are high-capacity. With high-capacity output, you could run many other things off these panel modules, such as temperature, pressure, humidity, radiation sensors, security-camera feeds, or control things like automatic doors, fire-supression systems or alarms. Each module is connected to (normaly) about 4 around it say, if one panel looses contact with another, the one that still operates, sends a data packet saying this both to one of several "Black Box" data nodes, as well as any active Command/Engineering station (*). ((*) These stations being interfaces with more signifigant processing power. Since all the units know the units next to them, at start-up, a network-scan of all the module neighbours could easily be extrapolated into a full map off all of them, showing relative possitions.) Adding a limited backup battery to each module would also alow to be specific in case of power-failure as aposed to a module actualy dying. The idea is something like your own body's nervous system. The nerves in your arm tell you hot and cold, and move your muscles about, but they don't actually think. The system still operates if you are sleeping, and even in cases of severe brain-damage. Even in the case of an extreme situation, such as the break-up of the structure entirely, batterys would keep the still-connected chunks running, and allow any survivors to access it by pluging either a command station to a hand-held unit into the network, alowing them to find which areas still held pressure, the remaining escape routes, etc.. or even maybe network-routing to a communications station. The concept is not complete just yet, as I'm still working through how to connect the frame itself to the panel-network, as they would be needed more for stress and strain information. > On the topic of redundant systems, you still have to > watch for cascading problems with a non-diverse systems. > The major system is the electrical system - with out > power you are left in the dark. I like the idea of > beamed power for space craft (solar energy?) thus a failure > of generator can be replaced with a spare floating around in > space. I agree that electrical power could well be a safety issue. Few things will run without it. Life-support for one. Emergency lockers situated at known intervals should probably contain some form of emergency space-protection, (from maybe NASAs "bubble" thingie, to a lightweight single-use type spacesuit), some method of communication, and power and oxygen cells. Oh yeah, food and meds might be good too. <=) > >Lets not forget to kick the thing! > > Abnout as likely to be usefull in repairing a fusion drive., ;/ Well, we'll see about that. *patpats his pet vacuum-chamber* > Metal is about the most easily recylclable material known, but plastics are a > good secound. And metals are a lot easier to repair. They can be welded, cut, rewelded, even under vacuum conditions. Plastics however tend to degass very badly under vacuum, especialy in heat, and also become brittle in cold. Certain types of rubber are better, and most of my panel ideas are designed using Viton-gasket seals, which are good up to about 150 degrees C. If you need then to take more than that, it'd probably be a personal-vacant areas anyway. Just in case though, soft metals are also used as gaskets. BTW, did you know Aluminum become radioactive under neutron radiation, whereas steel and stainless steel don't? > Oddly, the "green" materials like wood, paper, etc are the hardest to > recycle. Well, unless the wood's alive. Tenchi-Muyo anyone? > >Also I read that a inch of water protected life in the sea from > >cosmic radiation when the earth was young. A shell of water or ice > >would have two advantages - protection from radiation - large mass > >to stabilize a rotating habit. > > It takes more then that in space. The equive of a couple feet of steel. I recall seeing an idea something like this on the rec.arts.sf.science NewsGroup. It involved having a huge ball in space with numerous layers, like a pearl. Inside the first layer-gap there were large water conduits. Beneath that layer, more water, but this time with oxygen-producing and waste-eating algea in it. There was more, but I cannot recall the rest. > Here is a nice (but fictional) computer display of say critical > information. > http://www.peachprincess.com/Merchant2/full/yessir.jpg > While this image is from a forth coming Adult game, I has a nice > feel to it for a console. Indeed it does, even if personaly I'd go for something a little less harsh than neon-green. Who knows how long you'd have to spend staring at it? Peter From VM Wed Jan 16 19:41:21 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3145" "Wednesday" "16" "January" "2002" "11:14:06" "-0700" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "67" "Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3145 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0GKLvJb023387 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 12:21:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0GKLvNZ023364 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 12:21:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0GKLpJb022901 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 12:21:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (gc-jet-193.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.193]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA12766 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:21:49 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3C45C2EE.8259E9AC@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <005701c19ec1$da710040$50c7883e@poit> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu CC: starship-design Subject: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:14:06 -0700 Sci wrote: > > Okay, in my first Email, I breifly mentioned I was working on a modular > vacuum walling system. This seems a good time to elaborate a little more, > as related ideas are in the "options" package, so to speak. > If you're ever seen the toy Contrux (as I think it was called), you'll be > imagining something close to what I've come up with. A supporting frame, > filled with gasket-sealed panels. I've shown the concept ideas to the cheif > designer where I currently work, and he couldn't see any glaring design > faults. Nope -- Just TinkerToy and Lego and Mechano. I would like to see real docs (pdf? text?) on the design and use and transportation. Accidents that destroy a space station are rare but remodeling a space habitat could be common. What transportation will be used. I am fed up with NASA and the USA gov for not making it easy for the private sector to get to space. > Anyway you have, say, a corridoor made up of panels and frame (perhaps > Speedi-Frame would be another analogy?). Good idea. Great a talking habit. Puter "You are leaning too hard on the wall again". I suspect a wall that would shield people from cosmic radiation could use wire for networking as the network is behind the shield. > The idea is something like your own body's nervous system. The nerves in > your arm tell you hot and cold, and move your muscles about, but they don't > actually think. The system still operates if you are sleeping, and even in > cases of severe brain-damage. I like this with machinery -- pumps,fans,filters... They work normally with out control but external control can over ride the auto-magic functions. > I agree that electrical power could well be a safety issue. Few things will > run without it. Life-support for one. Emergency lockers situated at known > intervals should probably contain some form of emergency space-protection, > (from maybe NASAs "bubble" thingie, to a lightweight single-use type > spacesuit), some method of communication, and power and oxygen cells. > Oh yeah, food and meds might be good too. <=) Life pods could be useful in construction or sabotage. Simple redundancy would be sufficient in most cases. Unlike Si-Fi life in space does not have Kingons shooting at you. > And metals are a lot easier to repair. They can be welded, cut, rewelded, > even under vacuum conditions. Plastics however tend to degass very badly > under vacuum, especialy in heat, and also become brittle in cold. Certain > types of rubber are better, and most of my panel ideas are designed using > Viton-gasket seals, which are good up to about 150 degrees C. If you need > then to take more than that, it'd probably be a personal-vacant areas > anyway. Mind you if they get 'super plasics' that are stronger than steel and lighter this could change. > Indeed it does, even if personaly I'd go for something a little less harsh > than neon-green. Who knows how long you'd have to spend staring at it? What the console or the lovely girl? Ok - less green for my next console. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From VM Wed Jan 16 19:41:21 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1670" "Wednesday" "16" "January" "2002" "21:32:38" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "31" "Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1670 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0H2WsJb023551 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 18:32:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0H2Wshg023550 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 18:32:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0H2WnJb023534 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 18:32:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.25.) id z.41.16d6fedb (4196) for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 21:32:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <41.16d6fedb.297791c6@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 21:32:38 EST In a message dated 1/16/02 12:58:45 AM, toxicroach@swbell.net writes: >That's precisly my point. If and when we finally build a long term >spaceship, the computers are going to be so intergal to the ship as to >be indistinguishable. They will not have autonomous computers like PC's... >the whole thing will be intergrated as to be a mash of small computers. I'm >not a design experyt, but I think it would be wise to design the system to >have a flaw-tolerant system, by which I mean that there won't be a single >computer processor, or even a bank of them, that handles the mission >critical stuff. All the processors, even the ones for the coffee maker, >would be able to pitch in and help. If some proccesors were to drop out (by >being flawed, damaged, sabotaged, or whatever) then the other chips could >pick up the slack. After all, one chip weighs about the same as another--- >why not put as powerful a chip as possible in each position, and then make >an almost failsafe system. After all, a dispersed system is far more >hard to seriously damage, and the computing power needed by the crew for consumer >needs is likely going to be neglible compared to the processing power of >top of the line mil spec chips that would be used in a spacecraft like that, >even for resource hogging stuff like games and audio-visual things. Actually the Mil gear isn't nearly as good as the top consumer/comercial gear. They don't buy enough to be forst in line for new toys. ;) Other then that though your idea of a massivly redundant, massivlt paralel data network is a god idea. Though some things need to be kept close together in a tiny spot for speed. From VM Fri Jan 18 19:57:10 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2794" "Thursday" "17" "January" "2002" "20:34:10" "-0800" "Curtis Manges" "clmanges@yahoo.com" nil "75" "Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2794 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0I4YBLp010392 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:34:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0I4YB9o010391 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:34:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13607.mail.yahoo.com (web13607.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.118]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g0I4YALp010381 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:34:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20020118043410.65317.qmail@web13607.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.24.228.103] by web13607.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:34:10 PST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Curtis Manges From: Curtis Manges Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:34:10 -0800 (PST) --- KellySt@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 1/15/02 8:54:08 PM, toxicroach@swbell.net > writes: > > >Oh wow. Eco-freak on the list. Yeah, well, as you've been quick to point out, it's a thankless job, but someone has to do it. By the way, I'm a Democrat, too. > > ;) > > I'm expecting they "how dare we go forth into space when we messed > up > (mother) Earth so much". Think about it: if I felt that way, I wouldn't be on this list, would I? > >B) What is the "proper" use of resources, in your opinion? > > Good question. The answer depends on context, which is the whole point I've been trying to make. The use of resources has, thus far on Earth, been decided largely by default as whatever supports a market (or occasionally a war). With so much stuff available, we haven't had to think much about where it came from or where it went when we were done with it. Aboard a spacecraft or colony, it will not be so. Consider as an example the disposal of human waste aboard the ISS. Do those folks throw away the water every time they take a leak? Unless I'm mistaken, I believe they are drinking it. We are getting better in our practices here at home, simply because industry is beginning to realize that they can save money by recycling the stuff they used to just dump in the river. Oh, and all that paper that Ben likes? It's soon to be supplanted by electronic notepads; prototypes are in development now. Save a tree, scribble on a microchip. ;) On the proliferation of microprocessors, I told a friend not long ago, that, by the time we get into space in any meaningful way, we won't have to worry about the Borg; we'll _be_ the Borg. There are folks who are now working on integrating computers into clothing, shoes, glasses, etc. The prototypes are awfully clunky, but I expect to live to see the day when you simply won't be able to tell who's wired and who isn't. Some people are distressed by such proliferation; to me, it's just technology advancing, as it always does. It's just in our nature to keep improving things. Finally, on the frame-and-panel construction, isn't that best done with triangles instead of squares? Geodesic domes come to mind, and I seem to recall them being based mostly on triangles. The problem of sealing the panels is a tough one, mostly due to thermal expansion coefficients, I suspect. It makes me wonder if there might be a way to run some coolant through the pipes to keep the framework all within a decent temperature range to minimize flexing between the 'dayside' and the 'nightside' of the structure. Any thoughts on that? Curtis ===== get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ From VM Fri Jan 18 19:57:10 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1517" "Friday" "18" "January" "2002" "14:37:56" "+0100" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" nil "40" "Re: Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1517 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0IDccLp008320 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 05:38:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0IDccWT008319 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 05:38:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.8]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0IDcYLp008304 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 05:38:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id OAA06447 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 14:37:56 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200201181337.OAA06447@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 14:37:56 +0100 (MET) > From owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Fri Jan 18 05:37:35 2002 > From: Curtis Manges > > --- KellySt@aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 1/15/02 8:54:08 PM, toxicroach@swbell.net > > > > >Oh wow. Eco-freak on the list. > [...] > > ;) > > > > I'm expecting they "how dare we go forth into space when we messed > > up (mother) Earth so much". > > Think about it: if I felt that way, I wouldn't be on this list, > would I? > Concerning eco-freaks vs. space, you may find it interesting to look at http://www.islandone.org/LEOBiblio/SPBI100.HTM The author of that pages have had a rough time trying to advance his ideas in green literature... [...] > > Finally, on the frame-and-panel construction, isn't that best done > with triangles instead of squares? Geodesic domes come to mind, and I > seem to recall them being based mostly on triangles. The problem of > sealing the panels is a tough one, mostly due to thermal expansion > coefficients, I suspect. It makes me wonder if there might be a way > to run some coolant through the pipes to keep the framework all > within a decent temperature range to minimize flexing between the > 'dayside' and the 'nightside' of the structure. Any thoughts on that? > You think of surface structures only? Because for space-filling structures dividing space into habitable rooms, squares may be better... Concerning cooling problems, see the water-cooled window concept at http://www.islandone.org/LEOBiblio/SPBI1GH.HTM -- Zenon From VM Fri Jan 18 19:57:10 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1150" "Friday" "18" "January" "2002" "12:49:24" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "41" "Re: Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1150 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0IHnZLp026121 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 09:49:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0IHnZqp026120 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 09:49:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-m08.mx.aol.com (imo-m08.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.163]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0IHnXLp026088 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 09:49:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.25.) id z.c5.1c9b5f00 (5711) for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 12:49:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from web42.aolmail.aol.com (web42.aolmail.aol.com [205.188.161.3]) by air-id04.mx.aol.com (v82.22) with ESMTP id MAILINID44-0118124926; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 12:49:26 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Message-ID: Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 12:49:24 EST In a message dated Fri, 18 Jan 2002 8:39:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, Zenon Kulpa writes: > > From owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Fri Jan 18 05:37:35 2002 > > From: Curtis Manges > > > > --- KellySt@aol.com wrote: > > > > > In a message dated 1/15/02 8:54:08 PM, toxicroach@swbell.net > > > > > > >Oh wow. Eco-freak on the list. > > > [...] > > > ;) > > > > > > I'm expecting they "how dare we go forth into space when we messed > > > up (mother) Earth so much". > > > > Think about it: if I felt that way, I wouldn't be on this list, > > would I? Been known to happen. ;/ > Concerning eco-freaks vs. space, you may find it interesting to > look at http://www.islandone.org/LEOBiblio/SPBI100.HTM > The author of that pages have had a rough time trying to > advance his ideas in green literature... Greens aren't big on high tech and open frounteers. > [...] > > > > Finally, on the frame-and-panel construction, isn't that best done > > with triangles instead of squares? Geodesic domes come to mind, Those work, but most f&P construction is standard retangular buildings. From VM Fri Jan 18 19:57:10 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2250" "Friday" "18" "January" "2002" "13:09:47" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "71" "Re: Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2250 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0II9xLp007504 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 10:09:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0II9xKs007502 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 10:09:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-m04.mx.aol.com (imo-m04.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.7]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0II9wLp007421 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 10:09:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.25.) id z.115.b1a5195 (15895) for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 13:09:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from web30.aolmail.aol.com (web30.aolmail.aol.com [205.188.222.6]) by air-id08.mx.aol.com (v82.22) with ESMTP id MAILINID810-0118130948; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 13:09:48 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Message-ID: <115.b1a5195.2979beec@aol.com> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hi, from a newbie Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 13:09:47 EST In a message dated Thu, 17 Jan 2002 11:35:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, Curtis Manges writes: > > --- KellySt@aol.com wrote: > > > > > In a message dated 1/15/02 8:54:08 PM, toxicroach@swbell.net > > writes: > > > > >Oh wow. Eco-freak on the list. > > Yeah, well, as you've been quick to point out, it's a thankless job, > but someone has to do it. > > By the way, I'm a Democrat, too. Pour devil. ;) Your definatly out of place on a prospace form. ;) > > > > ;) > > > > I'm expecting they "how dare we go forth into space when we messed > > up > > (mother) Earth so much". > > Think about it: if I felt that way, I wouldn't be on this list, would > I? Been known to happen. > > >B) What is the "proper" use of resources, in your opinion? > > > > Good question. > > The answer depends on context, which is the whole point I've been > trying to make. The use of resources has, thus far on Earth, been > decided largely by default as whatever supports a market (or > occasionally a war). With so much stuff available, we haven't had to > think much about where it came from or where it went when we were > done with it. Acually outside of totalitarian states that hasn't been true. economic exchanges direct resources automatically to the area of greatest need, and direct activities to use the least vital resources to accomplish their ends. >Aboard a spacecraft or colony, it will not be so. > Consider as an example the disposal of human waste aboard the ISS. Do > those folks throw away the water every time they take a leak? Unless > I'm mistaken, I believe they are drinking it. Well technicall so do we here. Though folks generally drink the sewage of the folks upstream. Oh, wait no - they don't drink it on the ISS. Its cleaned to run washers or something then dumped. > We are getting better in our practices here at home, simply because > industry is beginning to realize that they can save money by > recycling the stuff they used to just dump in the river. > > Oh, and all that paper that Ben likes? It's soon to be supplanted by > electronic notepads; prototypes are in development now. folks have been saying that for decades. Reality is that the e notpads are a pain to read. From VM Thu Jan 24 10:40:40 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1049" "Wednesday" "23" "January" "2002" "19:11:16" "-0800" "Curtis Manges" "clmanges@yahoo.com" nil "30" "starship-design: germs in space" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1049 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0O3BILp023017 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 19:11:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0O3BI9k023016 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 19:11:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13607.mail.yahoo.com (web13607.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.118]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g0O3BGLp022993 for ; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 19:11:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20020124031116.38580.qmail@web13607.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.148.88.90] by web13607.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 19:11:16 PST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Curtis Manges From: Curtis Manges Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design Subject: starship-design: germs in space Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 19:11:16 -0800 (PST) Say, you recall some mention here recently of alien viruses or whatever, and how they might like us (for dinner) or not? Well, it looks like we'd better be careful out there . . . http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/23jan_cellwars.htm?list503653 I was going to try to get some comfort from the notion that they'd probably not like us. Things are amazingly complex at the cellular level, and a few molecules difference in transmitters, receptors, etc., and you've just got nothing going on, and I think this would be a likely scenario. It might not stay that way, though; those things usually display very high rates of reproduction, which means they can evolve faster, and they're probably almost as opportunistic as we are. We'll need our immune systems to be in better shape, not worse. Watch those biofilters, folks, and keep looking up. Curtis ===== get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeing new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com From VM Thu Jan 24 10:40:41 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1055" "Thursday" "24" "January" "2002" "17:35:54" "+0100" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" nil "25" "Re: starship-design: germs in space" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1055 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0OGauLp012215 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 08:36:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0OGaubw012213 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 08:36:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.8]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0OGaqLp012138 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 08:36:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id RAA09492 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:35:54 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200201241635.RAA09492@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: germs in space Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:35:54 +0100 (MET) > From owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Thu Jan 24 04:13:33 2002 > From: Curtis Manges > > Say, you recall some mention here recently of alien viruses or > whatever, and how they might like us (for dinner) or not? > > Well, it looks like we'd better be careful out there . . . > > http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/23jan_cellwars.htm?list503653 > > I was going to try to get some comfort from the notion that they'd > probably not like us. Things are amazingly complex at the cellular > level, and a few molecules difference in transmitters, receptors, > etc., and you've just got nothing going on, and I think this would be > a likely scenario. > > It might not stay that way, though; those things usually display very > high rates of reproduction, which means they can evolve faster, and > they're probably almost as opportunistic as we are. > Note, however, that _before_ they would be able to achieve these high rates of reproduction, they should find something edible and nutritious to them... -- Zenon Kulpa From VM Thu Jan 24 10:40:41 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["654" "Thursday" "24" "January" "2002" "09:44:05" "-0700" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "20" "Re: starship-design: germs in space" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 654 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0OGiaLp014231 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 08:44:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0OGiZtL014230 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 08:44:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0OGiYLp014220 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 08:44:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (gc-jet-208.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.208]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA00470 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:44:33 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3C5039D5.43C7A52E@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <200201241635.RAA09492@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: germs in space Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:44:05 -0700 Zenon Kulpa wrote: > > > From owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Thu Jan 24 04:13:33 2002 > > From: Curtis Manges > > > It might not stay that way, though; those things usually display very > > high rates of reproduction, which means they can evolve faster, and > > they're probably almost as opportunistic as we are. > > > Note, however, that _before_ they would be able to achieve > these high rates of reproduction, they should find something > edible and nutritious to them... > > -- Zenon Kulpa Well that leaves HUMANITY out then :) -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From VM Thu Jan 24 14:46:42 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1110" "Thursday" "24" "January" "2002" "17:45:40" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "33" "Re: starship-design: germs in space" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1110 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0OMjxLp029826 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:45:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0OMjx7Q029825 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:45:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-d10.mx.aol.com (imo-d10.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.42]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0OMjuLp029755 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:45:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.26.) id z.4e.5727d2e (4200) for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:45:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4e.5727d2e.2981e894@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: germs in space Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:45:40 EST In a message dated 1/23/02 9:12:18 PM, clmanges@yahoo.com writes: >Say, you recall some mention here recently of alien viruses or >whatever, and how they might like us (for dinner) or not? > >Well, it looks like we'd better be careful out there . . . Hey if simple chemicals can kill/desolve us, why be surprized that alien life forms could be able to? > >http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/23jan_cellwars.htm?list503653 > >I was going to try to get some comfort from the notion that they'd >probably not like us. Things are amazingly complex at the cellular >level, and a few molecules difference in transmitters, receptors, >etc., and you've just got nothing going on, and I think this would be >a likely scenario. Simple alergies or poisions work like that. Think of how a tiny amount of venom from a spider bit can kill a grown adult. > >It might not stay that way, though; those things usually display very >high rates of reproduction, which means they can evolve faster, and >they're probably almost as opportunistic as we are. Like the super bugs that evolved to be antibiotic proof. From VM Thu Jan 24 18:01:48 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1578" "Thursday" "24" "January" "2002" "18:00:43" "-0800" "Curtis Manges" "clmanges@yahoo.com" nil "56" "Re: starship-design: germs in space " "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1578 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0P20iLp002913 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 18:00:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0P20irc002912 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 18:00:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13609.mail.yahoo.com (web13609.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.9]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g0P20hLp002907 for ; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 18:00:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20020125020043.34855.qmail@web13609.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.148.94.193] by web13609.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 18:00:43 PST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Curtis Manges From: Curtis Manges Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design Subject: Re: starship-design: germs in space Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 18:00:43 -0800 (PST) From: "Toxic Roach" For example, if a certain set of receptors for ATP transfers (is there such a thing?) is simply THE best way of doing it? Would that solution to the problem then be developed independently, but identically, among various alien species? Really, I'm not sure if there is a "best way of doing it" or not; my first reaction is, "best way of doing what?" The thing is, that small details have some room for variance, like background radiation or trace elements in the soil, and at the scale in question, could make all the difference. ##### Note, however, that _before_ they would be able to achieve these high rates of reproduction, they should find something edible and nutritious to them... -- Zenon Kulpa Yes, but it needn't necessarily be nutritious to _us_. As an example, at least according to urban legend, is that we now have roaches who fatten up nicely on the roach bait that used to kill them. ##### Well that leaves HUMANITY out then :) -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * I sure hope so. ;) ##### From: KellySt@aol.com Hey if simple chemicals can kill/desolve us, why be surprized that alien life forms could be able to? We've already got Ebola and Pfisteria, how much worse do you think it gets? As well as some lifeforms here on Earth that are _toxic_ as well as those which are _venemous_. ##### Curtis ===== get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com From VM Mon Jan 28 10:02:28 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2239" "Monday" "28" "January" "2002" "00:25:04" "-0800" "jakesmiley" "jakesmiley@netzero.net" nil "45" "starship-design: Computing Power" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2239 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0S8QBLp025431 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 00:26:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0S8QBkn025420 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 00:26:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from rly-ip01.mx.aol.com (rly-ip01.mx.aol.com [205.188.156.49]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0S8Q9Lp024970 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 00:26:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from logs-mtc-ta.proxy.aol.com (logs-mtc-ta.proxy.aol.com [64.12.105.5]) by rly-ip01.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/AOL-5.0.0) with ESMTP id DAA28114 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 03:26:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from scottlt (ACAD3990.ipt.aol.com [172.173.57.144]) by logs-mtc-ta.proxy.aol.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id g0S8OPL476095 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 03:24:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002d01c1a7d5$4ac9db20$0501a8c0@scottlt> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "jakesmiley" From: "jakesmiley" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design" Subject: starship-design: Computing Power Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 00:25:04 -0800 Hello... Since we have 2000 people with their own computers, why not use a distributed computing model? Most computers tend to spend a lot of time unused. I'm sure any non-essential systems could find _something_ to do with the unused fraction of the combined power of 2000 PCs (or Macs, whatever your preference). I wouldn't recommend trying to run navigational or life-support programs that way, but most tasks could be run with a fair degree of safety. I agree with Kelly, microbes that we have never made the acquaintance of are probably the most dangerous. On Terra we have all of 20 (?) different amino acids comprising all of life on the planet. Who knows what the varying effects of different gravity and radiation have had on the development of basic life? Regardless of how exotic they are, they would still pose a danger. And probably more so for being quite so exotic. Back to the computers... Are we worried at all about the effects of space sickness? It's all well and good to protect computers from the environment, but I also like the idea of extra, extra rugged computer cases. Just in case anyone goes "space happy" for a bit. I dunno... I agree that, historically, governments and companies have pretty much the same track record when it comes to colonization. And, I understand that governments are full of faceless bureaucrats sent to punish you for any sins, real or imagined. However, I just can't seem to divest myself of the idea that corporations are full of soulless demons from Hell. Maybe it's just me... Then again, how does that song go again? "I sold my soul to the company store." From a less dramatic point of view, I suppose a corporation would be a better backer than a government. It seems that corporations tend to be more willing to go out on a limb when there is a glimmer of profit. And, while corporations live in fear of being seen as guilty of some heinous crime, governments are traditionally considered the final arbiter when making a life and death decision. I think a corporation would probably have a harder time of writing off a colony than a government would... I love this group! There are so many interesting things to learn! -JS From VM Mon Jan 28 10:02:28 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3291" "Monday" "28" "January" "2002" "09:23:22" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "77" "Re: starship-design: Computing Power" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3291 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0SENYLp000703 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 06:23:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0SENYMk000702 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 06:23:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-m10.mx.aol.com (imo-m10.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.165]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0SENXLp000680 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 06:23:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-m10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.26.) id z.172.2c2de43 (15881) for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:23:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from web35.aolmail.aol.com (web35.aolmail.aol.com [205.188.222.11]) by air-id07.mx.aol.com (v82.22) with ESMTP id MAILINID78-0128092322; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:23:22 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Message-ID: <172.2c2de43.2986b8db@aol.com> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Subject: Re: starship-design: Computing Power Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:23:22 EST In a message dated Mon, 28 Jan 2002 3:26:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, "jakesmiley" writes: > Hello... > > Since we have 2000 people with their own computers, why not > use a distributed computing model? Most computers tend to spend > a lot of time unused. I'm sure any non-essential systems could find > _something_ to do with the unused fraction of the combined power > of 2000 PCs (or Macs, whatever your preference). I wouldn't > recommend trying to run navigational or life-support programs that > way, but most tasks could be run with a fair degree of safety. Problem is its more trouble then its worth, and slow. Fast processing needs extreamly short distences. Distributing slows it all down. Besides computer power is cheap. You'ld spend more on the screen and cables. ;) > I agree with Kelly, microbes that we have never made the > acquaintance of are probably the most dangerous. On Terra we > have all of 20 (?) different amino acids comprising all of life on the > planet. Who knows what the varying effects of different gravity and > radiation have had on the development of basic life? Regardless of > how exotic they are, they would still pose a danger. And probably > more so for being quite so exotic. Yeah, viruses would be stuck with compatrible DNA, but microbes, funguses, etc can get pretty flexible. > Back to the computers... Are we worried at all about the effects > of space sickness? It's all well and good to protect computers from > the environment, but I also like the idea of extra, extra rugged > computer cases. Just in case anyone goes "space happy" for a bit. And what tosses it across the room? Bring spares, sooner or later theirs a spilled coffee or user with attitude, with some CPU's name on it. ;) > > I dunno... I agree that, historically, governments and companies > have pretty much the same track record when it comes to > colonization. And, I understand that governments are full of faceless > bureaucrats sent to punish you for any sins, real or imagined. > However, I just can't seem to divest myself of the idea that > corporations are full of soulless demons from Hell. Maybe it's just > me... Its you. Companies are as good or bad to you as they need to be. If you can make them money, and they need you, your their best friend. If you're just one more replacable drunge -- they have no idea who you are. Historically they have done far more for people then govs. At best govs are referees, at worst they want to be masters. == > From a less dramatic point of view, I suppose a corporation > would be a better backer than a government. It seems that > corporations tend to be more willing to go out on a limb when there > is a glimmer of profit. And, while corporations live in fear of being > seen as guilty of some heinous crime, governments are traditionally > considered the final arbiter when making a life and death decision. I > think a corporation would probably have a harder time of writing off > a colony than a government would... A gov has no real reason to support a colony, nor incentive to not close it. Its all just a polling whim. > I love this group! There are so many interesting things to learn! ;) > > -JS From VM Mon Jan 28 10:02:28 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["567" "Monday" "28" "January" "2002" "09:24:11" "-0700" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "16" "Re: starship-design: Computing Power" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 567 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0SHL9Lp000610 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:21:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0SHL92p000608 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:21:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0SHL7Lp000393 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:21:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (gc-jet-206.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.206]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA25057 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:20:50 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3C557B2B.6F81BD1B@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <172.2c2de43.2986b8db@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Computing Power Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:24:11 -0700 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > And what tosses it across the room? Bring spares, sooner or later theirs a spilled coffee or user with attitude, with some CPU's name on it. Dave -- No coffee again I am loosing my memory circuits.... HAL 9000 I suspect both Goverment and Business will not help getting people into space because real space travel is not flashy ie: No big propaganda for the government, and long term investment that people don't want to invest in ie: get rich quick. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From VM Mon Jan 28 15:59:38 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["699" "Monday" "28" "January" "2002" "18:29:54" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "20" "Re: starship-design: Computing Power" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 699 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0SNU8Lp011017 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:30:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0SNU8IW011012 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:30:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-d09.mx.aol.com (imo-d09.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.41]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0SNU7Lp010922 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:30:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-d09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.26.) id z.b8.2203ce7c (3657) for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:29:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Computing Power Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:29:54 EST In a message dated 1/28/02 11:21:25 AM, bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca writes: >> And what tosses it across the room? Bring spares, sooner or later theirs >a spilled coffee or user with attitude, with some CPU's name on it. > >Dave -- No coffee again I am loosing my memory circuits.... HAL 9000 > >I suspect both Goverment and Business will not help getting people into >space >because real space travel is not flashy ie: No big propaganda for the >government, >and long term investment that people don't want to invest in ie: get >rich quick. Hey corps do invest in longer term items. However if their isn't any way to make money, you can't sustain any space ops. Thers always the tourist market? From VM Tue Jan 29 10:15:51 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2868" "Monday" "28" "January" "2002" "19:32:12" "-0800" "jakesmiley" "jakesmiley@netzero.net" nil "58" "starship-design: Tourism" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2868 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0T3VdLp000201 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:31:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0T3VdUu000200 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:31:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail9.wlv.netzero.net (mail9.wlv.netzero.net [209.247.163.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g0T3VXLp000176 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:31:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 25770 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2002 03:31:32 -0000 Received: from 63-93-72-23.lsan.dial.netzero.com (HELO scottlt) (63.93.72.23) by mail9.wlv.netzero.net with SMTP; 29 Jan 2002 03:31:32 -0000 Message-ID: <002001c1a875$8b26cb60$0501a8c0@scottlt> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "jakesmiley" From: "jakesmiley" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design" Subject: starship-design: Tourism Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:32:12 -0800 Hello... Unfortunately for space tourism, even a single scare will crush the industry. For years the general populace has been subjected to numerous sci-fi flicks where large numbers of people die violently in a systems failure. So, despite the safety of space-travel and redundancy there will always remain that terrible doubt. Even if nothing ever happened, all it would take is a small drop in oxygen levels one day and pretty soon you'd have a hard time finding anyone willing to pay the fare. They'd start thinking about the Challenger or the Apollo fire. Which seems ridiculous (they're only proof that most accidents happen within 10 miles of your point of origin. ;] ), but you know the media would sensationalize it. Think about what's happening to tourism all over the world recently. It doesn't take much to upset 'business as usual'. Factor in the average operating cost of a station, and you don't have much of a profit margin to start with. I doubt that one could ever accrue a large cash buffer while relying on tourism. Also, what would happen when the glamour left space-travel? People will eventually realize that it's all just a bunch of stinky space-suits and cramped cabins. The QE2 is a lot more comfortable, and cheaper too. The worst part of this eventuality is that it would happen when the station was already fairly old, as stations go. Thus, just as operating costs ran through the roof business would drop off. Many a hotel has gone that route... Okay, on computers... Sure, if you need really fast computing distributed is only a pain. However, when was the last time you seriously needed a 2GHz chip? Most people don't. Besides, I was thinking of a distributed network for simple, raw number crunching. No fancy graphics, no cutting edge interfaces. Just parse up the data to be ground and pass it around the table, so to speak. These processors aren't doing anything else constructive. Why not let them analyze star formations, or whatever, while no one else is using them? It'll just cut down on the number of processors required for scientific and engineering tasks. Cables? Isn't a space station wired anyway? Hey, you could always go wireless! Well, if you could figure out how to cut through the interference... I'm not worried about corporations being unable to see a profit. Or that they won't be willing to engage in long-term investment (those guys do whatever their investment bankers tell them to, and the IB's are easy to buy off). I'm more worried that they won't be able to see past the risk. Who would insure a space scheme? Anyway, smile all you want. I'll still have fun learning. -JS ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 From VM Tue Jan 29 10:15:51 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1891" "Monday" "28" "January" "2002" "22:47:01" "EST" "Hexagram14@aol.com" "Hexagram14@aol.com" nil "44" "Re: starship-design: Tourism" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1891 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0T3lJLp004886 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:47:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0T3lJEv004885 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:47:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-d10.mx.aol.com (imo-d10.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.42]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0T3lDLp004797 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:47:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from Hexagram14@aol.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.26.) id z.12f.b80d5c8 (25510) for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:47:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <12f.b80d5c8.29877535@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_12f.b80d5c8.29877535_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Hexagram14@aol.com From: Hexagram14@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Tourism Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:47:01 EST --part1_12f.b80d5c8.29877535_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/28/2002 10:33:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, jakesmiley@netzero.net writes: > > Unfortunately for space tourism, even a single scare will crush the > industry. For years the general populace has been subjected to numerous > sci-fi flicks where large numbers of people die violently in a systems > failure. So, despite the safety of space-travel and redundancy there will > always remain that terrible doubt. > Well, it hasn't seemed to hurt the air travel industry any - crashes are an accepted risk! (((((:< ) Happy Rasta --part1_12f.b80d5c8.29877535_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/28/2002 10:33:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, jakesmiley@netzero.net writes:



    Unfortunately for space tourism, even a single scare will crush the
industry.  For years the general populace has been subjected to numerous
sci-fi flicks where large numbers of people die violently in a systems
failure.  So, despite the safety of space-travel and redundancy there will
always remain that terrible doubt.


Well, it hasn't seemed to hurt the air travel industry any - crashes are an accepted risk!

(((((:< )
Happy Rasta
 --part1_12f.b80d5c8.29877535_boundary-- From VM Tue Jan 29 16:54:03 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1804" "Tuesday" "29" "January" "2002" "16:52:24" "-0800" "Curtis Manges" "clmanges@yahoo.com" nil "52" "Fwd: starship-design: Tourism" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1804 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0U0qQT7012350 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:52:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0U0qQKd012349 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:52:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13608.mail.yahoo.com (web13608.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.119]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g0U0qPT7012341 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:52:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20020130005224.33579.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.148.93.35] by web13608.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:52:24 PST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Curtis Manges From: Curtis Manges Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design Subject: Fwd: starship-design: Tourism Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:52:24 -0800 (PST) --- jakesmiley wrote: > From: "jakesmiley" > To: "starship-design" > Subject: starship-design: Tourism > Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:32:12 -0800 > Reply-to: "jakesmiley" > > Hello... > > Unfortunately for space tourism, even a single scare will crush > the > industry. For years the general populace has been subjected to > numerous > sci-fi flicks where large numbers of people die violently in a > systems > failure. So, despite the safety of space-travel and redundancy > there will > always remain that terrible doubt. > I was thinking about space tourism, and who might be interested in putting up the bucks to provide it, and I thought, Disney! Of course, I don't even think Disney would do it, but they would likely do the next best thing: send out a small ship or two, maybe even unmanned, with lots of big cameras, and they'd put the footage into an I-Max theater. Viewers could get most of the same thrills without the expense and inconvenience. Really, even without the fear of catastrophe, a lot of folks would be leary about zero-gee, space sickness, and how to use the toilets, not to mention other situations, like this scenario: Passenger, tugging at a passing crewmwmber's sleeve: "Say, chief, I'm dyin' for a cigarette. Is there anywhere I can smoke around here?" Crewmember, pointing to the airlock: "Sure thing. You go through that door and close it behind you, then go through the one just beyond it. It's real spacious and has a great view." Keep looking up, Curtis ===== get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com From VM Tue Jan 29 16:55:53 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["854" "Tuesday" "29" "January" "2002" "19:55:27" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "20" "Re: starship-design: Computing Power" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 854 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0U0tgT7014726 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:55:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0U0tgMp014722 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:55:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-m05.mx.aol.com (imo-m05.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.8]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0U0teT7014703 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:55:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-m05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.26.) id z.57.5b04fe6 (3736) for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 19:55:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <57.5b04fe6.29889e7f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Computing Power Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 19:55:27 EST In a message dated 1/28/02 8:19:24 PM, toxicroach@swbell.net writes: >I'm not saying we should colonize mars for the toy franchise--- but it >could be one division of the teh effort to make the intial start up less >unprofitable. Might cover the cost of fuel or R&D or something. On your cut of the royalties for toys? Lucus could do that with his cut of the starwars toys. I mean I wouldn't turn down the extra revenew, but don't budget it to the program. >Defense >contracting--- I sure some apps could be done for teh DoD and other >countries, like launching satellites or selling information and research >to the DoD or whatever. Maybe letting them set up sensor packages on the >space stations of whatnot. They already have serices for that. Its likely the same folks you contract to launch your stuff cheeply, will launch theirs. From VM Tue Jan 29 16:55:53 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2085" "Tuesday" "29" "January" "2002" "19:55:33" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "89" "Re: starship-design: Tourism" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2085 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0U0tpT7014817 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:55:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0U0tpr2014814 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:55:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-m06.mx.aol.com (imo-m06.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.161]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0U0tnT7014763 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:55:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.26.) id z.73.19eefe8a (3736) for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 19:55:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <73.19eefe8a.29889e85@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Tourism Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 19:55:33 EST In a message dated 1/28/02 9:33:06 PM, jakesmiley@netzero.net writes: >Hello... > > > > Unfortunately for space tourism, even a single scare will crush the > >industry. For years the general populace has been subjected to numerous > >sci-fi flicks where large numbers of people die violently in a systems > >failure. So, despite the safety of space-travel and redundancy there will > >always remain that terrible doubt. > > > > Even if nothing ever happened, all it would take is a small drop in > >oxygen levels one day and pretty soon you'd have a hard time finding anyone > >willing to pay the fare. They'd start thinking about the Challenger or >the > >Apollo fire. I wouldn't worry about it. Ever survey shows lots of folks want to go, and plan crash statistics doesn't put long distence tourism out of busness. Tourisms about the only industry around with the big enough identified profit potential, to bankroll large scall space ops. > Think about what's happening to tourism all over the world recently. > It doesn't take much to upset 'business as usual'. A war is much. > Also, what would happen when the glamour left space-travel? People >will eventually realize that it's all just a bunch of stinky space-suits and >cramped cabins. It doesn't need to be. By that measure Las Vegas must be a fad. People will realize its just hot deasert and hotel rooms. ;) >The QE2 is a lot more comfortable, and cheaper too. And how many other liners ply the seas? > Okay, on computers... Sure, if you need really fast computing > >distributed is only a pain. However, when was the last time you seriously > >needed a 2GHz chip? Most people don't. True, but they all by them anyway, since the cost difference between a 2 GHz chip, and a 20MHz chip is miniman, and in general manufacturers don't bother to make the older slower chips, so they actually cost more. > Cables? Isn't a space station wired anyway? Not for that much band width! >Hey, you could always go wireless! Again, not enough bandwidth. From VM Thu Jan 31 10:20:35 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3147" "Thursday" "31" "January" "2002" "00:22:24" "-0800" "jakesmiley" "jakesmiley@netzero.net" nil "58" "starship-design: Finances" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3147 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0V8QUT7023739 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 00:26:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0V8QUoS023738 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 00:26:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from rly-ip02.mx.aol.com (rly-ip02.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.160]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0V8QST7023718 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 00:26:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from logs-th.proxy.aol.com (logs-th.proxy.aol.com [152.163.213.5]) by rly-ip02.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/AOL-5.0.0) with ESMTP id DAA28521 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 03:26:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from scottlt (AC9576F4.ipt.aol.com [172.149.118.244]) by logs-th.proxy.aol.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id g0V8LhD141880 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 03:21:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002501c1aa30$6a9fe360$0501a8c0@scottlt> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "jakesmiley" From: "jakesmiley" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design" Subject: starship-design: Finances Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 00:22:24 -0800 Hello... I'm missing the connection between airplanes and space travel. What makes you think that they can be compared correctly? I think Toxic Roach pointed out the difference between space travel and flying best when he said, "people do it [flying] to get where they need/want to go". You might have people want to go into space, but I doubt that anyone will ever _need_ to go. Also, airlines have always suffered the repercussions of accidents. People don't stand in line for an airline that kills its customers. The reason you don't usually hear about the airline industry going bust every time there's an accident is because, typically, only one airline suffers. Demand for their services shifts to competing airlines (competition, ain't capitalism great?). Unless, of course, the airline that suffered the accident is the only provider of services in a given area (market monopoly, don't capitalism suck?). So, without providing a _necessary_ service, any space travel agency (hah, hah, hah) would suffer greatly from any accident (or scare!). People don't _have_ to travel in space, and after an accident they probably wouldn't want to either. Crashes are only an accepted risk when people have no other choice. Anyway... I guess I should reconsider my position on the novelty of spaceflight. Not because of Las Vegas, no the secret of Las Vegas is greed and lust. Spaceflight has no potential payback for tourists, and sex in space ... well, you'd really have to be into bondage to make that work. Actually, I'm thinking about Paris and other European cities of note. Dirty, crime-ridden, and just about as cramped. The food is usually terrible, the people tend to be rude, and you're never allowed to touch anything. Yet people come back from these trips saying what a wonderful time they had... So maybe spaceflight wouldn't wear off quite as I thought. I have my doubts about those surveys that say most people want to go. I talk to people about it and their first response is always, "Wow. That'd be neat." However, if you keep talking to them you'll discover that they don't even consider it a possibility. How accurate can these surveys be? The people taking them are all thinking about Star Wars-type accommodations anyway. They never stop to think about the reality of the situation. (Given the outreach programs abounding today, I find ignorance of what space travel is like intolerable. Like those Navy guys who launched a satellite with a fan in it so they could cool their processor.) C'mon... It's a war on the other side of the world, where we're bombing a country forward into the stone-age. Morally, sure it's a big thing. But from a service provider POV, this shouldn't be such a big deal. I don't understand the ocean liner question. Are you trying to say the fact that you offer an exclusive service will allow you to survive? Not enough bandwidth? What are we trying to do? Play UT on a LAN system? ;] I'm talking about raw data. No pictures, no sounds, no perks whatsoever. Distributed computing isn't for the users, it's for data crunching. -JS From VM Thu Jan 31 10:20:35 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3887" "Thursday" "31" "January" "2002" "15:05:02" "+0100" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" nil "76" "Re: starship-design: Finances" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3887 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0VE5rT7018571 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 06:05:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0VE5rUh018570 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 06:05:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.8]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0VE5mT7018519 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 06:05:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id PAA12810 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 15:05:02 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200201311405.PAA12810@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Finances Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 15:05:02 +0100 (MET) > From owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Thu Jan 31 09:29:26 2002 > From: "jakesmiley" > > I'm missing the connection between airplanes and space travel. What > makes you think that they can be compared correctly? I think Toxic Roach > pointed out the difference between space travel and flying best when he > said, "people do it [flying] to get where they need/want to go". You might > have people want to go into space, but I doubt that anyone will ever _need_ > to go. > If his/her business will be in space (a space hotel, or a mine on the Moon...) he/she will need. > Also, airlines have always suffered the repercussions of accidents. > People don't stand in line for an airline that kills its customers. The > reason you don't usually hear about the airline industry going bust every > time there's an accident is because, typically, only one airline suffers. > Demand for their services shifts to competing airlines (competition, ain't > capitalism great?). Unless, of course, the airline that suffered the > accident is the only provider of services in a given area (market monopoly, > don't capitalism suck?). > Monopolies don't last long if they are not supported by governments. [...] > Anyway... I guess I should reconsider my position on the novelty of > spaceflight. Not because of Las Vegas, no the secret of Las Vegas is greed > and lust. Spaceflight has no potential payback for tourists, and sex in > space ... well, you'd really have to be into bondage to make that work. > Actually, I'm thinking about Paris and other European cities of note. > Dirty, crime-ridden, and just about as cramped. The food is usually > terrible, the people tend to be rude, and you're never allowed to touch > anything. Yet people come back from these trips saying what a wonderful > time they had... So maybe spaceflight wouldn't wear off quite as I thought. > Consider also the art of creation of fads and fashions. > I have my doubts about those surveys that say most people want to go. I > talk to people about it and their first response is always, "Wow. That'd be > neat." However, if you keep talking to them you'll discover that they don't > even consider it a possibility. How accurate can these surveys be? The > people taking them are all thinking about Star Wars-type accommodations > anyway. They never stop to think about the reality of the situation. > (Given the outreach programs abounding today, I find ignorance of what space > travel is like intolerable. Like those Navy guys who launched a satellite > with a fan in it so they could cool their processor.) > Really? Do you have some source & details, it would be nice as a piece of space humor. > C'mon... It's a war on the other side of the world, where we're > bombing a country forward into the stone-age. > Wrong - the opposite is true. Talibs were on the straight road into the stone age; bombings actually turned Afghans back from that way. Consider the history of Japan & South Korea after the WW II and compare them with, say, North Korea. > Morally, sure it's a big thing. But > from a service provider POV, this shouldn't be such a big deal. > Wait a while, the business there gets now a chance for a big start. > I don't understand the ocean liner question. Are you trying to say the > fact that you offer an exclusive service will allow you to survive? > > Not enough bandwidth? What are we trying to do? Play UT on a LAN > system? ;] I'm talking about raw data. No pictures, no sounds, no perks > whatsoever. Distributed computing isn't for the users, it's for data > crunching. > Wow, for the data-crunching's sake? I always thought the data crunching is for the users. Not to say that pictures & sounds are also data as good as any other, often requiring quite much crunching... -- Zenon Kulpa From VM Thu Jan 31 10:20:35 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["889" "Thursday" "31" "January" "2002" "10:22:25" "-0700" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "21" "Re: starship-design: Finances" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 889 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0VHNFT7017330 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 09:23:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0VHNFF5017329 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 09:23:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0VHN6T7017187 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 09:23:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (gc-jet-218.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.218] (may be forged)) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA17210 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:23:04 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3C597D51.9E295609@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <002501c1aa30$6a9fe360$0501a8c0@scottlt> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu CC: starship-design Subject: Re: starship-design: Finances Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:22:25 -0700 jakesmiley wrote: > > Hello... > > I'm missing the connection between airplanes and space travel. What > makes you think that they can be compared correctly? I think Toxic Roach > pointed out the difference between space travel and flying best when he > said, "people do it [flying] to get where they need/want to go". You might > have people want to go into space, but I doubt that anyone will ever _need_ > to go. Strange I don't see Rail Travel exactly booming. The whole problem is that space access has developed from the missile not aircraft. Had the Germans developed the skip bomber rather than the V2 things may have changed in space development.Also the Russian leaps in to space in the 1950's was based on rockets powerful enough to launch the heavier nuclear weapons of the USSR. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From VM Thu Jan 31 14:39:17 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1946" "Thursday" "31" "January" "2002" "16:32:38" "-0600" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "34" "RE: starship-design: Finances" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1946 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0VMWmT7000424 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:32:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g0VMWml3000423 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:32:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@traffic.gnt.net [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g0VMWgT7000372 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:32:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadsword (user121.net241.fl.sprint-hsd.net [64.45.208.121]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id QAA32461 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:32:39 -0600 Message-ID: <001001c1aaa7$308864f0$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: <200201311405.PAA12810@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Subject: RE: starship-design: Finances Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:32:38 -0600 Coming in late here so bear with me if I screw up... Tourism will never sustain space travel in and of itself. It can however, become the highest source of revenue AFTER the infrastructure is in place. The only way to get the infrastructure in place is industry. Not having read the original post using airplanes as an analogy, I will pick airplanes again and describe it as I see it: When airplanes were first invented they were terribly complicated and very unreliable as a means of transportation, kind of like spacecraft today. No one in the Wright brothers day would have intuitively envisioned the passenger airlines of today. On the other hand, the implications for military science and industry were immediately apparent. After many years of fighters, bombers and mail haulers (freight) passengers were gradually added to the mix. All of these things hold true for space flight today. Today's occasional tourist is really nothing more than an expensive version of a barnstormer giving rides for a dollar. Today's airlines handle a LOT of passengers. They handle even more freight though. It was freight that let them develop to the point where passengers became a viable alternative. Today, it is passengers that sustain the airlines, but without the industry's need for freight, it wouldn't have happened. Where the analogy breaks down of course is the differences in time and cost between the two. Which is why I don't think that tourism, or pure passenger travel will ever become the sustaining force behind space travel. When the costs in fuel and equipment are so high, dense, valuable cargoes are worth far more than a passenger. Things like manufactured goods and raw materials become much more attractive. The more so, because in space, there are no railroads, steam ships, bus lines or interstate highways to compete with the spacecraft, hence, the demand is high, the supply is limited and the cost will be exorbitant. Lee From VM Thu Jan 31 19:03:40 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3157" "Thursday" "31" "January" "2002" "20:54:47" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "125" "Re: starship-design: Finances" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3157 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g111t4T7005258 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:55:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g111t4Xh005257 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:55:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-r01.mx.aol.com (imo-r01.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.97]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g111t2T7005240 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:55:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-r01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.26.) id z.c6.5ceb784 (17081) for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 20:54:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Finances Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 20:54:47 EST In a message dated 1/31/02 2:27:16 AM, jakesmiley@netzero.net writes: >Hello... > > > > I'm missing the connection between airplanes and space travel. What > >makes you think that they can be compared correctly? Eaither way you go to a port, get in the craft, fly to somewhere within a couple hours distence, and get out. Even the same energy requirements to space adn across oceans. >I think Toxic Roach > >pointed out the difference between space travel and flying best when he > >said, "people do it [flying] to get where they need/want to go". You might > >have people want to go into space, but I doubt that anyone will ever _need_ > >to go. You have 2 types of passengers. Want to go (tourists) and need to go (busness). You'll have both to space, or their won't be routine flights. > Also, airlines have always suffered the repercussions of accidents. > >People don't stand in line for an airline that kills its customers. The > >reason you don't usually hear about the airline industry going bust every > >time there's an accident is because, typically, only one airline suffers. Actually virtually no airline ever went out of busness due to a accident. Not even massive multi hundred passenger ones. Only due to incompetence. Even tourists overlook accidents, if the airline didn't screw up stupidly. > Anyway... I guess I should reconsider my position on the novelty of > >spaceflight. Not because of Las Vegas, no the secret of Las Vegas is greed > >and lust. No its entertainment. The bulk of Vegas tourists don't hang out in te xrated places, and absolutly know they won't make any money. Like any other tourist mecha - folks go there to have some fun. From the Grand canyon, to Mall or America, to Disneyland. === > I have my doubts about those surveys that say most people want to go. > I > >talk to people about it and their first response is always, "Wow. That'd >be > >neat." However, if you keep talking to them you'll discover that they >don't > >even consider it a possibility. How accurate can these surveys be? These inclue ones from tourist industries used to feeling out how real the intrest is, especially at various costs per trip. == > C'mon... It's a war on the other side of the world, where we're bombing > >a country forward into the stone-age. Morally, sure it's a big thing. > But > >from a service provider POV, this shouldn't be such a big deal. At a billion dollars a month, its a good market. ;) Not to mentionj the cost of all that equip used there. > I don't understand the ocean liner question. Are you trying to say >the > >fact that you offer an exclusive service will allow you to survive? No, liners like space platforms, ae closed issolated "trips". Especially the long ocean ones. > Not enough bandwidth? What are we trying to do? Play UT on a LAN > >system? ;] I'm talking about raw data. No pictures, no sounds, no perks > >whatsoever. Sorry, no such thing anymore. What do you think this is going to be used for? >Distributed computing isn't for the users, it's for data > >crunching. What data? > >-JS From VM Mon Feb 4 09:51:48 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["972" "Friday" "1" "February" "2002" "17:18:20" "-0800" "Curtis Manges" "clmanges@yahoo.com" nil "27" "starship-design: tourism" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 972 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g121IMT7019855 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:18:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g121IMBf019854 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:18:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13603.mail.yahoo.com (web13603.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.114]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g121ILT7019844 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:18:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20020202011820.9322.qmail@web13603.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.148.88.141] by web13603.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 01 Feb 2002 17:18:20 PST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Curtis Manges From: Curtis Manges Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design Subject: starship-design: tourism Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:18:20 -0800 (PST) My last message somehow didn't make it, but I was thinking of who might be interested in putting up the money to develop space tourism. My first thought was Disney, but then I realized that their approach to it would likely be to do a digitally composed I-Max movie instead of building rockets. Fact is, we already have space tourism: the world's second space tourist is preparing himself for the trip now, despite NASA's kicking and screaming. The Russians are enjoying the money. This is how it begins, with a few very rich people who won't be denied. Maybe one of those people will enjoy it so thoroughly that they'll put up some bucks to take it a little farther, to put it within reach of more people (who will rent space in their orbital hotels). Keep looking up, Curtis ===== get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com From VM Mon Feb 4 09:51:48 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2447" "Friday" "1" "February" "2002" "17:51:40" "-0800" "jakesmiley" "jakesmiley@netzero.net" nil "54" "starship-design: Comparisons" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2447 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g121vnT7029618 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:57:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g121vn4m029617 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:57:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from rly-ip01.mx.aol.com (rly-ip01.mx.aol.com [205.188.156.49]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g121vlT7029598 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:57:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from logs-wm.proxy.aol.com (logs-wm.proxy.aol.com [205.188.199.132]) by rly-ip01.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/AOL-5.0.0) with ESMTP id UAA26271 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:56:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from scottlt (AC8CD7A0.ipt.aol.com [172.140.215.160]) by logs-wm.proxy.aol.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id g121p5v248078 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:51:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002801c1ab8c$2a41a1c0$0501a8c0@scottlt> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-Apparently-From: ScottPIC@aol.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "jakesmiley" From: "jakesmiley" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design" Subject: starship-design: Comparisons Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:51:40 -0800 Hello... >If his/her business will be in space (a space hotel, or a mine >on the Moon...) he/she will need. Sure, but where did the infrastructure come from to get those people up there in the first place? It sounds like your assuming a preexisting system. Alright. Let's try and compare the beginnings of flight with those of space travel... Flight -- Wood, cloth, some iron and your in business! Space -- You wouldn't happen to have a spare $300M? Flight -- Don't forget your scarf. It's cold up there. Space -- It's REALLY cold up there! Flight -- If you're not careful, you'll hit the ground. Space -- If your not careful, you'll _wish_ you could hit the ground. All considered, I think that the hurdles for space travel are a lot higher than those for flight. Especially when you consider safety. It took 50 years before mass air transportation became popular. Can we afford to wait that long with space travel? In the mean time we have to prove that space travel is safe and effective, without relying on tourism. Another thing... Most people don't have to think about how dangerous flying really is. Think about it, flying along at .8 Mach in a thin metal tube. As it turns out, most people _don't_ want to think about that. So what happens when people are reminded every few minutes to perform a safety check or die? That doesn't seem like a real confidence builder. I'm not saying that tourism will _never_ work. I just don't think it will ever bankroll our operations. And once it can, we'd be making more money hauling around materials. (I, for one, prefer cargo that doesn't talk back.) On to computers again... I wasn't suggesting distributed computing as a main architecture. I just thought that, since we have so many computers for people anyway, why not _do_ something with the idle time? Actually the only problem that I see with people and intensive graphics apps, is that everyone wants "data" and "graphics" at the same time. They don't accept a tradeoff (which is a dumb term, because it's all data) acceptable. They want both, and they want it _now_. (I still use dial-up. :] ) But since the computing I'm suggesting would run only during idle periods, there's no need to try cramming everything possible down the pipe. If the users want graphics and data intensive programs, let 'em run a T3 to the nearest service provider. ;] -JS From VM Mon Feb 4 09:51:48 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["7316" "Saturday" "2" "February" "2002" "16:30:27" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "200" "Fwd: starship-design: Comparisons" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 7316 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g12LUdT7016914 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:30:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g12LUdpX016913 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:30:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g12LUcT7016893 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:30:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.26.) id z.a2.202fc7b0 (4184) for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 16:30:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_a2.202fc7b0.298db473_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Fwd: starship-design: Comparisons Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 16:30:27 EST --part1_a2.202fc7b0.298db473_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/1/02 7:58:21 PM, jakesmiley@netzero.net writes: >Hello... > > > >>If his/her business will be in space (a space hotel, or a mine > >>on the Moon...) he/she will need. > > > > Sure, but where did the infrastructure come from to get those people >up > >there in the first place? It sounds like your assuming a preexisting > >system. No, I'm assuming a system will be built to support them when theres some reason to send them. If thats a tourist industry, military, minning, or some other industry. Until theres a reason, they won't build the stuff. > All considered, I think that the hurdles for space travel are a lot > >higher than those for flight. Especially when you consider safety. It >took > >50 years before mass air transportation became popular. Can we afford >to wait that long with space travel? Ah, its been that long already. As to bariors. Its about the same as for a big jet airliner. >In the mean time we have to prove that > >space travel is safe and effective, without relying on tourism. People will be willing to take risks for thrills or profit. > Another thing... Most people don't have to think about how dangerous > >flying really is. Think about it, flying along at .8 Mach in a thin metal > >tube. As it turns out, most people _don't_ want to think about that. >So > >what happens when people are reminded every few minutes to perform a safety > >check or die? That doesn't seem like a real confidence builder. No reason they would need to anymore then they would in a airliner. In both cases the machine works and your safe. Or it fails and your in REAL trouble. > > I'm not saying that tourism will _never_ work. I just don't think >it will ever bankroll our operations. And once it can, we'd be making more >money hauling around materials. (I, for one, prefer cargo that doesn't >talk back.) What cargo? No ones identified enough to keep a big fleet going, and without a big busy fleet, you can't can't get the costs down. > On to computers again... I wasn't suggesting distributed computing >as a > >main architecture. I just thought that, since we have so many computers >for > >people anyway, why not _do_ something with the idle time? More trouble then its worth. > Actually the only problem that I see with people and intensive graphics > >apps, is that everyone wants "data" and "graphics" at the same time. = Thats how you display large amounts data to people. --part1_a2.202fc7b0.298db473_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-xb05.mx.aol.com (rly-xb05.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.106]) by air-xb04.mail.aol.com (v83.35) with ESMTP id MAILINXB48-0201205821; Fri, 01 Feb 2002 20:58:21 -0500 Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (darkwing.uoregon.edu [128.223.142.13]) by rly-xb05.mx.aol.com (v83.35) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXB54-0201205758; Fri, 01 Feb 2002 20:57:58 -0500 Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g121vnT7029618 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:57:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g121vn4m029617 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:57:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from rly-ip01.mx.aol.com (rly-ip01.mx.aol.com [205.188.156.49]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g121vlT7029598 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:57:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from logs-wm.proxy.aol.com (logs-wm.proxy.aol.com [205.188.199.132]) by rly-ip01.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/AOL-5.0.0) with ESMTP id UAA26271 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:56:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from scottlt (AC8CD7A0.ipt.aol.com [172.140.215.160]) by logs-wm.proxy.aol.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id g121p5v248078 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:51:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002801c1ab8c$2a41a1c0$0501a8c0@scottlt> From: "jakesmiley" To: "starship-design" Subject: starship-design: Comparisons Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:51:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-Apparently-From: ScottPIC@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "jakesmiley" Hello... >If his/her business will be in space (a space hotel, or a mine >on the Moon...) he/she will need. Sure, but where did the infrastructure come from to get those people up there in the first place? It sounds like your assuming a preexisting system. Alright. Let's try and compare the beginnings of flight with those of space travel... Flight -- Wood, cloth, some iron and your in business! Space -- You wouldn't happen to have a spare $300M? Flight -- Don't forget your scarf. It's cold up there. Space -- It's REALLY cold up there! Flight -- If you're not careful, you'll hit the ground. Space -- If your not careful, you'll _wish_ you could hit the ground. All considered, I think that the hurdles for space travel are a lot higher than those for flight. Especially when you consider safety. It took 50 years before mass air transportation became popular. Can we afford to wait that long with space travel? In the mean time we have to prove that space travel is safe and effective, without relying on tourism. Another thing... Most people don't have to think about how dangerous flying really is. Think about it, flying along at .8 Mach in a thin metal tube. As it turns out, most people _don't_ want to think about that. So what happens when people are reminded every few minutes to perform a safety check or die? That doesn't seem like a real confidence builder. I'm not saying that tourism will _never_ work. I just don't think it will ever bankroll our operations. And once it can, we'd be making more money hauling around materials. (I, for one, prefer cargo that doesn't talk back.) On to computers again... I wasn't suggesting distributed computing as a main architecture. I just thought that, since we have so many computers for people anyway, why not _do_ something with the idle time? Actually the only problem that I see with people and intensive graphics apps, is that everyone wants "data" and "graphics" at the same time. They don't accept a tradeoff (which is a dumb term, because it's all data) acceptable. They want both, and they want it _now_. (I still use dial-up. :] ) But since the computing I'm suggesting would run only during idle periods, there's no need to try cramming everything possible down the pipe. If the users want graphics and data intensive programs, let 'em run a T3 to the nearest service provider. ;] -JS --part1_a2.202fc7b0.298db473_boundary-- From VM Thu Feb 7 17:24:16 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["427" "Thursday" "7" "February" "2002" "17:22:52" "-0800" "Curtis Manges" "clmanges@yahoo.com" nil "19" "starship-design: hubble images" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 427 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g181MsT7019915 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 17:22:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g181Mstv019914 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 17:22:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13602.mail.yahoo.com (web13602.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.113]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g181MrT7019909 for ; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 17:22:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20020208012252.63107.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.148.88.170] by web13602.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 07 Feb 2002 17:22:52 PST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Curtis Manges From: Curtis Manges Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design Subject: starship-design: hubble images Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 17:22:52 -0800 (PST) Just for grins, grab a couple of these and use 'em for wallpaper. http://heritage.stsci.edu http://oposite.stsci.edu/pubinfo/pr/2002/03 http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/images/wfpc I tried the first one and liked it. keep looking up, Curtis ===== get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com From VM Mon Feb 11 10:21:14 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1770" "Sunday" "10" "February" "2002" "15:10:35" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "72" "starship-design: Re: Inspiration attached!" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1770 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1AKAtT7025017 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:10:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1AKAtTT025016 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:10:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-r05.mx.aol.com (imo-r05.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.101]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1AKArT7024994 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:10:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-r05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id n.24.20b6db05 (25100); Sun, 10 Feb 2002 15:10:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <24.20b6db05.29982dbb@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: unamity@yahoo.co.uk, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Inspiration attached! Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 15:10:35 EST I no longer have access to the web site, and therefor couldn't add a link to your site even if I wished to. I beleave Dave Levine is the only one with access, so you'll have to ask him. Thou since our groups interests were very different in direction and emphasis, I'm not sure it would be a good fit. Especially given the http://www.freespeech.org/rapture/FTL link is more sugestive of of religious fanatasism then science, and your signature erroniously claims that you ae "father of the US / Intl Space Station Program". David and I were both in the space stati program, and I'm sure neiather of us heard of you being being influential in it. Had you checked the web site you'ld notice we do have starship design illistratinos, though they ae leaing more toward diagrams, them artwork. Kelly Starks In a message dated 2/10/02 12:27:33 PM, unamity@yahoo.co.uk writes: >Kelly Starks > >Dave Levine > > > >Would like to talk to you about StarShip design! > > > >This year we are in the midst of our 2nd annual > >worldwide Spaceplane design collaboration. Later this >year I expect to announce our first annual StarShip >design collaboration. > >For more information on the physics of superluminal >flight, see: > >http://www.freespeech.org/rapture/FTL > > > >Can you announce our WorldWide Spaceplane Art / Design >Collaboration on your mainpage. It is at: > >http://www.FireShips.Com/electric > > > >[Please visit.] > > > >Best Year 2002 regards, > > >Millennium Twain >father of the US / Intl Space Station Program, >designer of the X49 ScramShip StratoLiner > > > >http://www.FireShips.Com > > > >mt@fireships.com > > > >P.S. Do you have any StarShip designs (artwork) >posted on any of your webpages? From VM Mon Feb 11 10:21:14 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1722" "Sunday" "10" "February" "2002" "15:20:05" "-0700" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "43" "Re: starship-design: Re: Inspiration attached!" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1722 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1AMI6T7007028 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 14:18:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1AMI6Co007027 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 14:18:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1AMI5T7006882 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 14:18:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (gc-jet-205.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.205]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA25646; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 15:17:41 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3C66F215.55074FC6@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <24.20b6db05.29982dbb@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: KellySt@aol.com CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Inspiration attached! Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 15:20:05 -0700 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > > I no longer have access to the web site, and therefor couldn't add a link to > your site even if I wished to. I beleave Dave Levine is the only one with > access, so you'll have to ask him. Thou since our groups interests were very > different in direction and emphasis, I'm not sure it would be a good fit. > Especially given the http://www.freespeech.org/rapture/FTL link is more > sugestive of of religious fanatasism then science, and your signature > erroniously claims that you ae "father of the US / Intl Space Station > Program". David and I were both in the space stati program, and I'm sure > neiather of us heard of you being being influential in it. Well the since web site has not been updated for several moons I am not holding my breath on this one. > >This year we are in the midst of our 2nd annual > >worldwide Spaceplane design collaboration. Later this > >year I expect to announce our first annual StarShip > >design collaboration. Get orbit -- 1st priority. Remember it is not people but cargo that is important. People look flashy but until you get a working cargo transport then you can move people. > >For more information on the physics of superluminal > >flight, see: > > > >http://www.freespeech.org/rapture/FTL Bah Humbug... lets see some experiments first. > >Millennium Twain > >father of the US / Intl Space Station Program, > >designer of the X49 ScramShip StratoLiner Good a space geek I grumble at. Yuck! what do you have for ordinary people to get to space? Dishwashers,burger flippers and high school drop outs might like to dream of space travel. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From VM Mon Feb 11 10:21:14 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6451" "Sunday" "10" "February" "2002" "19:59:18" "EST" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" nil "147" "Re: starship-design: Inspiration inside!" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 6451 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1B0xTT7021730 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 16:59:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1B0xTMx021729 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 16:59:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-m01.mx.aol.com (imo-m01.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.4]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1B0xRT7021679 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 16:59:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from STAR1SHIP@aol.com by imo-m01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id z.1e.22f5ed50 (3967); Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:59:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1e.22f5ed50.29987166@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 107 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com From: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: KellySt@aol.com CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Inspiration inside! Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:59:18 EST Check my SR and GR math please. Note: Comments not needed- solve problem below the dotted line only. Considering atomic rockets theoretical max velocity. One relies on momentum to carry the rocket beyond c. I conserve momentum as momenum(P) = MV and as each action has an equal and opposite reaction, In a rocket(r) the momentum of the rocket in one direction is always = to the momentum of the exhaust(e) in the other direction at any given time. is expressed in a general equation as MrVr=MeVe conserving momentum. Example. A 100 ton ship accelerates at one g by providing the energy from converting 1/2 ton of 95 tons exhaust to the energy required to accelerate the 94.5 tons of exhaust out the exhaust port at 1/10 c. This exhaust momentum propels the remaining 5 ton ship to 1.89 C speed in the opposite direction. Showing: MrVr=MeVe 5 tons times Vr = 94.5 tons times 1/10 C Vr=.945 c/5 Vr= 1.89C As 1/2 ton mass converts to energy it leaves the exhaust mass so the figure of 95 tons changes to 94.5 tons giving a rocket velocity of 1.89 C conserving momentum. See Working diagram Animation http://members.aol.com/tjac780754/Page1.html An ordinary chemical rocket can control by throttle an exhaust flow rate to give 1 g acceleration for several hours based on tests of rockets reaching an average 15g for many minutes such as "Hellious". At less than 1 year = 356 days time 24 hours =8544 hours of 1 g acceleration are needed to exceed c. Versus present chemical rockets, 8,544/3(several) times more power is needed so that acceleration time can be measured at greater than 356 days to exceed c. The chemical Vs atomic power to mass unit ratio based on atomic bomb and reactor test measurements are best "guesstamated" at 1,000,000 to 100,000,000 times the power possible with chemical rockets so atomic rockets of good design can maintain 1 g acceleration for 351 to 35100 years. Dotted line---------------Presented for your Solution--------------------- PROBLEM BACKGROUND: In the problem I give, I state the acceleration to be a constant 1 g. This is the acceleration of the object with respect to the object as measured and calculated aboard the object by dropping an object on the rocket ship deck and timing the fall time to calculate the acceleration rate at a fixed time and by reading his watch at the beginning of the ships acceleration,the rocketman then subtract the time difference and calculates his velocity at any time by knowing the current time. I did not give the relativistic acceleration that changes with an arbitrary external observers frame of reference from any external observation point with respect to the ship(wrt) as the external frame of reference can be of any velocity including zero(at rest) or position outside the ship giving different velocity and acceleration measurements, for in relativity there is no "absolute reference frame" from which all measurements are taken. Sticky Note :-): Stick to the given problem and focus and concentrate: In the reference frame of the moving object the local(wrt ship) acceleration determines the final velocity and is given as 1 g. Do not mix frames of reference. Note: In the given problem, A hypothetical uniform(linear with slope zero) gravitational field of 1 g of unlimited size does not exist in nature. In practice a small uniform gravitational field of 1 g exists near the earth's surface but becomes significantly nonuniform(nonlinear) the further away from the earth's surface as the gravitation field strength varies inversely proportional with the square of the distance between the two masses. To construct an artificial uniform gravitational field of size sufficient to contain the distance traveled by the object "feeling or experiencing " the 1 g acceleration, it is necessary to accelerate a rocket at a local rate of 1 g for the duration of the flight as "acceleration producing artificial gravity is indistinguishable from gravity produced from mass."(Einstein) So you can see the difference between actual acceleration and relativistic acceleration I will temporarily modify the given problem and change 1.9 C to 9/10 C to conform to common preconceived notions of a light speed limit and belief systems so that you can calculate both actual velocity(Vreal) wrt the moving object and relativistic velocity(Vrel.) relative to an arbitrary observer and compare the results of Special Relativity(SR) or General Relativity(GR) versus(vs) Newtonian Mechanics(NM). ---------------------------------------SOLVE------------------------------ ------------ What is the time(t) required for an object(p) accelerating(a) at one gravity(g) to reach a velocity(v) of 9/10 C when free falling in an hypothetical uniform gravitational field of 1 g of unlimited size or artificial uniform gravitational field of Rocket accelerating in deep space at a constant 1 g? (Neglecting air resistance, nearby gravitational masses such as planets, stars and external observers) ------------------------------------Defining Parameters-------------------------------- Initial conditions: The notation: (:=) represents (is defined as equal to) (^) represents exponent such as x^2 for x squared. (Xp) represents the variable X with the subscript p V:= velocity in units of lightspeed (C) = 9/10 C expressed as warpspeed point 9 C:= light speed in meters(m)/sec(s) or m/s = 2.998 time 10^8 m/sec g:=9.8 m/s per sec = 9.8 m/s^2 T:=time(t) ---------------------------------------converting to algebraic short hand------------------------- Expressing the word problem in standard algebraic shorthand, from the large set of equations in the field of physics formula, I select the general formula Velocity is equal to Acceleration times Time expressed as v=at. >From the this I derive the special equation to solve the initial condition problem. Vp=gt using the constants g=9.8 m/sec^2 and C=2.998 time 10^8 m/sec to calculate 1 year in seconds = 60 seconds times 60 minutes times 24 hours times 365.25 days=31557600 seconds t=Vp/g to calculate T as T=t calculating (hint................... >From the original problem, if 1.9C=(1.8 years)g then g=1.9C/1.8years and .9C=gx and x=.9C/g then x= .9C(1.8 years)/1.9C therefore x = 0.85 years trunctuated to two signifigant digits = T giving the NM,SR and GR solution I am eagarly wating for your NM, SR and GR solution . . . . . . . . . . . From VM Mon Feb 11 15:49:44 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1943" "Monday" "11" "February" "2002" "17:37:46" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "63" "Re: starship-design: Re: Inspiration attached!" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1943 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1BMc0T7016823 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:38:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1BMc0ru016821 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:38:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-m04.mx.aol.com (imo-m04.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.7]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1BMbvT7016753 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:37:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id z.d3.6633faa (4555) for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:37:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Inspiration attached! Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:37:46 EST In a message dated 2/10/02 4:17:56 PM, bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca writes: >KellySt@aol.com wrote: >> >> I no longer have access to the web site, and therefor couldn't add a >link to >> your site even if I wished to. I beleave Dave Levine is the only one >with >> access, so you'll have to ask him. Thou since our groups interests were >very >> different in direction and emphasis, I'm not sure it would be a good >fit. >> Especially given the http://www.freespeech.org/rapture/FTL link is more >> sugestive of of religious fanatasism then science, and your signature >> erroniously claims that you ae "father of the US / Intl Space Station >> Program". David and I were both in the space stati program, and I'm >sure >> neiather of us heard of you being being influential in it. > >Well the since web site has not been updated for several moons I am not >holding my breath on this one. No kiding. > >> >This year we are in the midst of our 2nd annual >> >worldwide Spaceplane design collaboration. Later this >> >year I expect to announce our first annual StarShip >> >design collaboration. > >Get orbit -- 1st priority. Remember it is not people but cargo that is >important. People look flashy but until you get a working cargo >transport then you can move people. You need a lot of traffic. Enough to keep at least a small fleet of craft flying a couple times a week each. Otherwise the overhead will kill you. >> >For more information on the physics of superluminal >> >flight, see: >> > >> >http://www.freespeech.org/rapture/FTL > >Bah Humbug... lets see some experiments first. Or rational ideas!! >> >Millennium Twain >> >father of the US / Intl Space Station Program, >> >designer of the X49 ScramShip StratoLiner > >Good a space geek I grumble at. Yuck! what do you have for ordinary >people to get to space? Dishwashers,burger flippers and high school drop >outs might like to dream of space travel. ;) From VM Mon Feb 11 17:27:35 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["7722" "Monday" "11" "February" "2002" "20:25:23" "EST" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" nil "176" "Re: starship-design: Re: Inspiration attached!" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 7722 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1C1PaT7015580 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:25:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1C1Pavl015577 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:25:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-m06.mx.aol.com (imo-m06.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.161]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1C1PZT7015531 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:25:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from STAR1SHIP@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id z.182.36f3353 (16782); Mon, 11 Feb 2002 20:25:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <182.36f3353.2999c903@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 107 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com From: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: KellySt@aol.com CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Inspiration attached! Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 20:25:23 EST In a message dated 2/11/02 2:40:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, KellySt@aol.com writes: << >> >For more information on the physics of superluminal >> >flight, see: >> > >> >http://www.freespeech.org/rapture/FTL > >Bah Humbug... lets see some experiments first. Or rational ideas!! >> Here is an idea. Put the horse before the cart. Provide a originating author source, quote, date, citation, experiment or at least something supporting the C speed limit theory giving you the notion that an object cannot exceed light speed. At the least, can you at least demonstrate some math ability by solving below the dotted line. Currerent reference [Relativity FAQ] - [Copyright] Updated 14-January-1998 by PEG Original by Philip Gibbs 14-April-1997 http://www.weburbia.com/physics/FTL.html quote16. The infinite energy argument When Einstein wrote down his postulates for special relativity he did not include the statement that you can not travel faster than light. There is a misconception that it is possible to derive it as a consequence of the postulates he did give. Incidentally, it was Henri Poincare who said "Perhaps we must construct a new mechanics, ... in which the speed of light would become an impassable limit." That was in an address to the International Congress of Arts and Science in 1904 before Einstein announced special relativity in 1905. End quote Note: Comments not needed- solve problem below the dotted line only. Considering atomic rockets theoretical max velocity. One relies on momentum to carry the rocket beyond c. I conserve momentum as momenum(P) = MV and as each action has an equal and opposite reaction, In a rocket(r) the momentum of the rocket in one direction is always = to the momentum of the exhaust(e) in the other direction at any given time. is expressed in a general equation as MrVr=MeVe conserving momentum. Example. A 100 ton ship accelerates at one g by providing the energy from converting 1/2 tons of 95 tons exhaust to the energy required to accelerate the 94.5 tons of exhaust out the exhaust port at 1/10 c. This exhaust momentum propels the remaining 5 ton ship to 1.89 C speed in the opposite direction. Showing: MrVr=MeVe 5 tons times Vr = 94.5 tons times 1/10 C Vr=.945 c/5 Vr= 1.89C As 1/2 ton mass converts to energy it leaves the exhaust mass so the figure of 95 tons changes to 94.5 tons giving a rocket velocity of 1.89 C conserving momentum. An ordinary chemical rocket can control by throttle an exhaust flow rate to give 1 g acceleration for several hours based on tests of rockets reaching an average 15g for many minutes such as "Hellious". At less than 1 year = 356 days time 24 hours =8544 hours of 1 g acceleration are needed to exceed c. Versus present chemical rockets, 8,544/3(several) times more power is needed so that acceleration time can be measured at greater than 356 days to excced c. The chemical vs atomic power to mass unit ratio based on atomic bomb and reactor test measurements are best "guesstamated" at 1,000,000 to 100,000,000 times the power possible with chemical rockets so atomic rockets of good design can maintain 1 g acceleration for 351 to 35100 years. Dotted line---------------Presented for your Solution--------------------- PROBLEM BACKGROUND: In the problem I give, I state the acceleration to be a constant 1 g. This is the acceleration of the object with respect to the object as measured and calculated aboard the object by dropping an object on the rocket ship deck and timing the fall time to calculate the acceleration rate at a fixed time and by reading his watch at the beginning of the ships acceleration,the rocketman then subtact the time difference and calculates his velocity at any time by knowing the current time. I did not give the relativistic acceleration that changes with an arbitrary external observers frame of reference from any external observation point with respect to the ship(wrt) as the external frame of reference can be of any velocity including zero(at rest) or postion outside the ship giving different velocity and acceleration measurements, for in relativity there is no "absolute reference frame" from which all measurements are taken. Sticky Note :-): Stick to the given problem and focus and concentrate: In the reference frame of the moving object the local(wrt ship) acceleration determines the final velocity and is given as 1 g. Do not mix frames of reference. Note: In the given problem, A hypothetical uniform(linear with slope zero) gravitational field of 1 g of unlimited size does not exist in nature. In practice a small uniform gravitational field of 1 g exists near the earth's surface but becomes significantly nonuniform(nonlinear) the further away from the earth's surface as the gravitation field strength varies inversely proportional with the square of the distance between the two masses. To construct an artificial uniform gravitational field of size sufficient to contain the distance traveled by the object "feeling or experiencing " the 1 g acceleration, it is necessary to accelerate a rocket at a local rate of 1 g for the duration of the flight as "acceleration producing artificial gravity is indistinguishable from gravity produced from mass."(Einstein) So you can see the difference between actual acceleration and relativistic acceleration I will temporarily modify the given problem and change 1.9 C to 9/10 C to conform to common preconceived notions of a light speed limit and belief systems so that you can calculate both actual velocity(Vreal) wrt the moving object and relativistic velocity(Vrel.) relative to an arbitrary observer and compare the results of Special Relativity(SR) or General Relativity(GR) versus(vs) Newtonian Mechanics(NM). ---------------------------------------SOLVE------------------------------ ------------ What is the time(t) required for an object(p) accelerating(a) at one gravity(g) to reach a velocity(v) of 9/10 C when free falling in an hypothetical uniform gravitational field of 1 g of unlimited size or artificial uniform gravitational field of Rocket accelerating in deep space at a constant 1 g? (Neglecting air resistance, nearby gravitaional masses such as plantets, stars and external observers) ------------------------------------Defining Parameters-------------------------------- Initial conditions: The notation: (:=) represents (is defined as equal to) (^) represents exponet such as x^2 for x squared. (Xp) represents the variable X with the subscript p V:= velocity in units of lightspeed (C) = 9/10 C expressed as warpspeed point 9 C:= light speed in meters(m)/sec(s) or m/s = 2.998 time 10^8 m/sec g:=9.8 m/s per sec = 9.8 m/s^2 T:=time(t) ---------------------------------------converting to algebraic short hand------------------------- Expressing the word problem in standard algebraic shorthand, from the large set of equations in the field of physics formula, I select the general formula Velocity is equal to Acceleration times Time expressed as v=at. >From the this I derive the special equation to solve the initial condition problem. Vp=gt using the constants g=9.8 m/sec^2 and C=2.998 time 10^8 m/sec to calculate 1 year in seconds = 60 seconds times 60 minutes times 24 hours times 365.25 days=31557600 seconds t=Vp/g to calculate T as T=t calculating (hint................... >From the original problem, if 1.9C=(1.8 years)g then g=1.9C/1.8years and .9C=gx and x=.9C/g then x= .9C(1.8 years)/1.9C therefore x = 0.85 years trunctuated to two signifigant digits = T giving the NM,SR and GR solution I am eagarly wating for your NM, SR and GR solution . . . . . . . . . . . From VM Mon Feb 11 17:54:52 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2043" "Monday" "11" "February" "2002" "17:52:30" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "41" "Re: starship-design: Re: Inspiration attached!" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2043 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1C1qlT7025926 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:52:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1C1qkfr025924 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:52:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1C1qjT7025915 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:52:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [206.163.182.194]) by clavin.efn.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1C1qhb11175 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:52:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1C1qcR13439; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:52:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15464.30046.690923.397358@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <182.36f3353.2999c903@aol.com> References: <182.36f3353.2999c903@aol.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under 21.4 (patch 6) "Common Lisp" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Inspiration attached! Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:52:30 -0800 STAR1SHIP@aol.com writes: > Currerent reference > [Relativity FAQ] - [Copyright] > Updated 14-January-1998 by PEG > Original by Philip Gibbs 14-April-1997 > http://www.weburbia.com/physics/FTL.html > quote16. The infinite energy argument > When Einstein wrote down his postulates for special relativity he did not > include the statement that you can not travel faster than light. There is a > misconception that it is possible to derive it as a consequence of the > postulates he did give. Incidentally, it was Henri Poincare who said "Perhaps > we must construct a new mechanics, ... in which the speed of light would > become > an impassable limit." That was in an address to the International Congress of > Arts and Science in 1904 before Einstein announced special relativity in 1905. > End quote It is well-established that in special relativity, the momentum and energy of any object with mass asymptotically approaches infinity as the velocity of the object approaches c. Massless particles carry equal amounts of energy and momentum, always travel at c, and can't be slowed down or sped up. Particle physics experiments have directly confirmed the asymptotic increase of momentum and energy as the particles are accelerated to within tiny fractions of c; if it were possible to make objects go faster than c, you'd think they'd be able to make subatomic particles do so easily. > One relies on momentum to carry the rocket beyond c. So this statement of yours is directly at odds with special relativity. The relativistic momentum of an object with mass m at velocity v is: p = m * (v / sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2)) Not the Newtonian p = m * v that you keep trying to use. Not only does the momentum approach infinity as v approaxches c, but there's no meaningful interpretation of momentum for velocities of c or greater. Given the small amount of fuel, the low mass-to-energy conversion rate for it, and the mass of the ship you postulate, you're not even going to get into low relativistic speeds with your rocket. From VM Tue Feb 12 10:10:36 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["751" "Monday" "11" "February" "2002" "20:33:18" "-0700" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "19" "Re: starship-design: Re: Inspiration attached!" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 751 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1C3VET7028543 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:31:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1C3VDOo028542 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:31:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1C3VCT7028516 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:31:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (gc-jet-221.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.221] (may be forged)) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA24675; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 20:31:05 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3C688CFE.19DB0A36@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <182.36f3353.2999c903@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Inspiration attached! Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 20:33:18 -0700 STAR1SHIP@aol.com wrote: > Considering atomic rockets theoretical max velocity. > > I am eagarly wating for your NM, SR and GR solution . . . . . . . . . . . How about a AD solution ?? I suspect the problem with large space propulsion of any kind is heat dissipation. Well even if I had Fusion as a power source , power losses would play a large role in output drive. Using a wild figure here 80% of fusion energy would go in thrust, 10% losses in energy production and 10% in waste heat. That 20% of energy has to be dissipated some how and in space you need lots of radiating surfaces. BTW has much more work been done with anti-matter induced fusion? -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From VM Tue Feb 12 10:10:36 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["382" "Monday" "11" "February" "2002" "20:54:42" "-0700" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "11" "Re: starship-design: Re: Inspiration attached!" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 382 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1C3qXT7005892 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:52:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1C3qXpC005891 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:52:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1C3qWT7005855 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:52:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (gc-jet-221.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.221] (may be forged)) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA25574; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 20:52:30 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3C689202.4B3C1F17@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: KellySt@aol.com CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Inspiration attached! Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 20:54:42 -0700 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > You need a lot of traffic. Enough to keep at least a small fleet of craft > flying a couple times a week each. Otherwise the overhead will kill you. Nah... just get lots government funding and cancel 1/2 way thru saying you need new technology... It works for NASA. -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From VM Tue Feb 12 10:10:36 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3557" "Tuesday" "12" "February" "2002" "08:40:11" "EST" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" nil "73" "Re: starship-design: Re: Inspiration attached!" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3557 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1CDeMT7018362 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 05:40:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1CDeMBW018361 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 05:40:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-m04.mx.aol.com (imo-m04.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.7]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1CDeLT7018343 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 05:40:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from STAR1SHIP@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id z.83.16b68eec (16781) for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:40:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <83.16b68eec.299a753b@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 107 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com From: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Inspiration attached! Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 08:40:11 EST << starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu >> karlsagan (Original Message) Sent: 2/12/2002 12:44 AM Whenever we look at the universe, we look into the past, being limited by the speed of light as we are. But there is a whole universe that we are unaware of. It is the universe of the NOW. Right now everything in the universe is experienceing the same NOW we are. Heavenly bodies a billion lightyears away have been moving those billion years that light took to get here and are not there anymore. Where are they now? Is there some sort of map or computer simulation that shows where everything is right now? If faster that light travel is ever to be possible, we have to go to where a star is NOW, not from where ever their light shines from. Karl, Excellent questions considering in the last 50 years we found a math error in calculating the distance to the stars off by a factor of 2. No telling what errors will be found in the future. It would seem wise not to consider a minimum energy requirement journey to any star for the reasons you gave. Perhaps a craft would have to have enough energy to go anywhere in in the universe and back to succeed. I found some good numbers indicating that very possiblility even if the speed is limited to just below light speed. The only difference from C + V travel is your earth twin would be ancient bones if you return with the C -V ship. Here are the numbers for C -V ship dilated time near c Vs earth time at 1 g acceleration. Alpha Centauri 4.36 ly 268 days 0.999128 4.56 years Sirius 8.64 ly 314 days 0.999769 8.84 years Polaris 783 ly 1.71 years 0.999999997 783.4 years ...and onward to the heart of the galaxy... Nucleus, Milky Way 32616 ly 2.43 years 0.9999999999830 32637 years and into the realm beyond. The velocities start to take so many digits to write I have write them on the next line! Andromeda galaxy 2,180,000 ly 3.22 years 0.999999999999996 2,181,447 years Virgo cluster 42,000,000 ly 3.78 years V 42,027,876 years 0.99999999999999999 Quasar 3C273 2,500,000,000 ly 4.56 years V 2,501,659,318 years 0.999999999999999999997 Universe edge 17,000,000,000 ly 4.93 years V 17,011,283,360 years Grasshopper, Star travel is no place for girlie boys. Yoda How did yoda get in here? Here is the energy available for star travel calculations.for C plus or minus v ship. An ordinary chemical rocket can control by throttle an exhaust flow rate to give 1 g acceleration for several hours based on tests of rockets reaching an average 15g for many minutes such as "Hellious". At less than 1 year = 356 days time 24 hours =8544 hours of 1 g acceleration are needed to exceed c. Versus present chemical rockets, 8,544/3(several) times more power is needed so that acceleration time can be measured at greater than 356 days to excced c. The chemical vs atomic power to mass unit ratio based on atomic bomb and reactor test measurements are best "guesstamated" at 1,000,000 to 100,000,000 times the power possible with chemical rockets so atomic rockets of good design can maintain 1 g acceleration for 351 to 35100 years. C-ship: Our Sturdy Craft http://www.fourmilab.ch/cship/craft.html The Relativistic Rocket Applet http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~obrian/applets/Rocket/Voyage.html Rocket simulations http://www.execpc.com/~culp/rockets/rckt_sim.html From VM Tue Feb 12 12:59:07 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["715" "Tuesday" "12" "February" "2002" "15:58:17" "EST" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" nil "15" "Re: starship-design: Re: Inspiration attached!" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 715 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1CKwYf6009600 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:58:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1CKwYUh009595 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:58:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-m09.mx.aol.com (imo-m09.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.164]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1CKwWf6009272 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:58:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from STAR1SHIP@aol.com by imo-m09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id z.a8.6769507 (3311); Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:58:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 107 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com From: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Inspiration attached! Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:58:17 EST In a message dated 2/12/02 12:52:55 PM Pacific Standard Time, STAR1SHIP writes: OPPS, made a math error in travel time I gave for the sturdy C ship craft. in previous post. Why did someone in group not catch my error?. Reading Reading C- ship our sturdy craft (The Lorentz) http://www.fourmilab.ch/cship/craft.html The travel times I just gave are off by a factor of ten as they are based on 10 g acceleration available for unmanned craft probe an not 1 g required for manned flight. Just goes to prove what I say "No telling what math errors will be discovered in the future" so it would prudent to take abundant extra matter (fuel) to convert to energy to prevent catastropic mission failure. From VM Tue Feb 12 13:14:55 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["336" "Tuesday" "12" "February" "2002" "13:14:11" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "7" "Re: starship-design: Re: Inspiration attached!" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 336 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1CLEjf6017461 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:14:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1CLEj5b017459 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:14:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1CLEif6017451 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:14:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [206.163.182.194]) by clavin.efn.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1CLEhU02020 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:14:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1CLEYR16537; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:14:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15465.34211.204733.222770@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under 21.4 (patch 6) "Common Lisp" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Inspiration attached! Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:14:11 -0800 STAR1SHIP@aol.com writes: > OPPS, made a math error in travel time I gave for the sturdy C ship craft. in > previous post. Why did someone in group not catch my error?. Probably because your rambling posts are so full of errors, hand-waving, and wishful thinking that reading them, let alone proofreading them, is a pointless task. From VM Wed Feb 13 10:22:40 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5569" "Wednesday" "13" "February" "2002" "03:02:55" "EST" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" nil "132" "Re: starship-design: Re: Inspiration attached!" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 5569 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1D838f6017445 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:03:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1D838Kv017442 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:03:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-r01.mx.aol.com (imo-r01.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.97]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1D836f6017370 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:03:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from STAR1SHIP@aol.com by imo-r01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id z.9c.1aedaea3 (3845) for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 03:02:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <9c.1aedaea3.299b77af@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 107 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com From: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Inspiration attached! Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 03:02:55 EST n a message dated 2/12/02 1:15:07 PM Pacific Standard Time, stevev@efn.org writes: << STAR1SHIP@aol.com writes: > OPPS, made a math error in travel time I gave for the sturdy C ship craft. in > previous post. Why did someone in group not catch my error?. Probably because your rambling posts are so full of errors, hand-waving, and wishful thinking that reading them, let alone proofreading them, is a pointless task. >> Steve, Your jealosy is showing cause LIT has failed to produce "one" practical star ship design. Einstein didn't leave anyone "King of Physics" when he passed, so stop acting like it was Visser, Misner, Thorne, Wheeler or you as Einstein was condisidered the leading authority on relativity till he died. I am Tom, the next best thing. Einstein left signed instructions(lost) in 1955 to be given to children on how to continue his work as It was up to the children reading his instructions as he was censored from publishing to the general public his work in atomic physics. He claimed it was he who invented the atomic bombs in 1913 that exploded on Japan in 1945 and his complete plans were stolen by Enrico Fermi in 1938 with trickery. I followed those instructions when I read them as a child in 1963 and continue to this day. So Einstein did leave a very clear legacy and line of authority for future physists, so any not knowing his atomic physics as he taught it, including yourself, simply has no credibility even today. Some other of Einstein's "lost" works Einstein fondly recalled by area woman http://www.sunone.com/news/articles/12-28-99h.shtml You may quote me Thomas H. Jackson and reference above. I make no attempt to acclerate a particle from a particle accelerater to C + V velocites. We are not discussing max velocity of tricycles, horses or particles fired from a particle accelerator that relativistic(relative to the acclerator base) mass tends towards infinity as relativistic velocity appraches C. That would require an energy delivered from the base frame reference tend towards infinity to change the velocity of the relativistic mass, so limits particle accelerators to sub light speed. We are discussing a rocket machine that delivers a energy to a mass, by converting part of the moving relativistic mass to the relativitic energy tending towards infinity to change the velocity of the mass to beyond C. I only need to convert a small part of the exhaust mass to energy. I rely on momentum to carry the rocket beyond c. I conserve momentum as momenum(P) = MV and as each action has an equal and opposite reaction, In a rocket(r) the momentum of the rocket in one direction is always = to the momentum of the exhaust(e) in the other direction at any given time. is expressed in a general equation as MrVr=MeVe conserving momentum. Example. A 100 ton ship accelerates at one g by providing the energy from converting 1/2 tons of 95 tons exhaust to the energy required to accelerate the 94.5 tons of exhaust out the exhaust port at 1/10 c. This exhaust momentum propels the remaining 5 ton ship to 1.89 C speed in the opposite direction. See MrVr=MeVe 5 tons times Mr = 94.5 tons times 1/10 C .945C /5 = 1.89C As 1/2 ton mass converts to energy it leaves the exhaust mass so the figure of 95 tons changes to 94.5 tons giving a rocket velocity of 1.89 C conserving momentum. For animation working diagram of engine see: http://members.aol.com/tjac780754/Page1.html The engine consists of two parts 1 exhaust(e) and 2 rocket(r) only, as momentum(P) is equal to Mass(M) times Velocity(V) then in a reaction engine for each action there is a equal and opposite reaction conserving momentum (Newton's First Law expressed mathematicly as MeVe=MrVr as the momentum of the rocket in one direction is alway equal to the momentum of the exhaust in the other direction at any point in time any where in the universe so is considered a Universal Law. Jesus Christ or Anoksunamen must obey the Universal Law and if they ascended to the heavens in a 1 g rocket then they can easily return alive today obeying Einstein's relativity laws. So behave and obey the law cause they might be ticked off when they return. :-O Do not ask "What is time" again. Look at mass of clock hand moving around clock face circumfrance to determine "What is time?" The physical quantity of time(t) is defined as the fourth dimension(d) in Einstein mechanics representing 4d space and time in graphic detail by the t in the math coordinate system where x,y,z and t represent the known three spatial dimensions of height, width, depth and the fourth dimension time. Time does not exist without mass moving over a distance. All "real world physics" of mass motion in space and time can be described completely with this coordinate system in third degree equations represented by equations with whole number exponents 0,1,2, and 3 representing the 4 dimensions. Quantum mechanics uses equations with higher than 3 exponets beginning with 4 exponet representing 5 dimensions so fourth or higher degree equations is defined as fantasy world physics, and the mechanics are trapped in the imagination dimension of infinite dimensions and possiblilites. Einstien defined quantum mechanics as "mathamatical gobbley gook" as imagination has use in physics but must be trained and disciplined by knowledge of the laws of real world physics in 4 dimensions. I agree. Tom From VM Thu Feb 14 16:16:51 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2072" "Thursday" "14" "February" "2002" "19:15:04" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "55" "starship-design: Fwd: No Subject" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2072 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1F0Faf6003886 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:15:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1F0FZ4Z003882 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:15:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-r10.mx.aol.com (imo-r10.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.106]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1F0FQf6003817 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:15:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-r10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id i.116.c5522b6 (4184); Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:15:04 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <116.c5522b6.299dad08@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_116.c5522b6.299dad08_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: JohnFrance@aol.com, dtaylor611@comcast.net, moschleg@erols.com, SFnoirSD@aol.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, rddesign@rddesigns.com, RICKJ@btio.com, Michnavi@aol.com, millahnna@yahoo.com Subject: starship-design: Fwd: No Subject Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:15:04 EST --part1_116.c5522b6.299dad08_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/14/02 3:52:50 PM, KStarks.Apollo@SIKORSKY.COM writes: >http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=4527 > > > > > >From these briefings, things were pretty serious in a jan meeting about > >future space lauinchers, and space planes for NASA and AF. > > --part1_116.c5522b6.299dad08_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-za04.mx.aol.com (rly-za04.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.100]) by air-za02.mail.aol.com (v83.35) with ESMTP id MAILINZA23-0214165250; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:52:50 -0500 Received: from mail2.utc.com (mail.utc.com [192.249.46.67]) by rly-za04.mx.aol.com (v83.35) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINZA43-0214165241; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:52:41 -0500 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail2.utc.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) id g1ELqY001715 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:52:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown(140.76.187.207) by mail2.utc.com via smap (V5.5) id xma001609; Thu, 14 Feb 02 16:52:15 -0500 Received: from saexch-bh1-stf.sikorsky.com (saexch-bh1-stf.sikorsky.com [140.76.216.20]) by nike.sikorsky.com (Switch-2.0.1/Switch-2.0.1) with ESMTP id g1ELq9E11213 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:52:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by saexch-bh1-stf.sikorsky.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <152JNVBW>; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:52:12 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Starks, Kelly Apollo" To: "'Kellys Home'" Subject: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:52:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=4527 >From these briefings, things were pretty serious in a jan meeting about future space lauinchers, and space planes for NASA and AF. --part1_116.c5522b6.299dad08_boundary-- From VM Mon Feb 18 09:54:42 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6340" "Thursday" "14" "February" "2002" "23:46:53" "EST" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" nil "203" "starship-design: Fwd: Is this a good address?" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 6340 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1F4l5f6026516 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:47:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1F4l5Jj026515 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:47:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-r06.mx.aol.com (imo-r06.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.102]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1F4l4f6026474 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:47:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from STAR1SHIP@aol.com by imo-r06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id z.8d.13e93473 (16781) for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:46:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <8d.13e93473.299decbd@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_8d.13e93473.299decbd_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 107 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com From: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Fwd: Is this a good address? Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:46:53 EST --part1_8d.13e93473.299decbd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/14/02 7:53:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, STAR1SHIP writes: << Subj: Re: Is this a good address? Date: 2/14/02 7:53:23 PM Pacific Standard Time From: STAR1SHIP To: dan@lakeweb.net In a message dated 2/13/02 10:24:51 PM Pacific Standard Time, dan@lakeweb.net writes: << Don't think I won't work out your problem. And as most of the participants on sci.physics are interested in that chip on their shoulder, maybe I'll get their first! (Is that a contradiction in terms?) I've taken the simplistic view of SR for so long... Thanks for all your time and effort. Maybe sci.physics can be a place to learn from again. I'll do my best. Dan. >> Thanks, for the kind words and offer to help Dan. I need all the help I can get :). The given problem is indeed simple containing 3 varibles v,a and t with a and v given. Here is some of my more recent notes and an apple(t) to boot. Sent: 2/13/2002 10:00 PM From: karlsagan Sent: 2/13/2002 9:34 PM Mind you, I'm not, NOT, saying that you rocket motor couldn't reach a very large percent of the speed of light. Just not go as fast as light or faster. Much better Karl, note your rational thought marked in blue. Note also This applet lets you plan how long a trip will take on a rocket that travels near the speed of light. You type the distance of the trip (measured in light years) and the acceleration of the rocket (measured as a multiple of Earth's gravity). The rocket will accelerate at that rate for half of the trip, then decelerate at the same rate for the second half of the trip. The time for the trip is measured in two ways: (1) As seen by a person who stays behind on Earth, and (2) as measured by you on the ship. For your convenience, space-sickness pills are available aft of the observation lounge. pluging in 4.25 light years to near star at 1 g acceleration the calculater gives: Trip length: 4.25 light years. Acceleration: 1.0 g. Time on earth: 5.8780560467144 years. Time on ship: 3.544401860293398 years. The distance between the earth and a near star does not change. Next make some effort on your part to calculate with v = d/t and v'=d/t' the different velocites as v=d/t measured by the earth observer and v'=d/t' measured by the rocket man. Calculate v as observed always less than c and v' can be C-Vx, C or C + Vx. In the short trip given v'= C+Vx with Vx being some calculated velocity added to C or subtacted from C. Earth observation stops at C of C and C + V ship. Calculate a and a' from v and v' above. Use a' set at 1 g to exceed C wrt earth after earth observer stops seeing rocket at C wrt earth. Bon Voyage! C-ship: Our Sturdy Craft http://www.fourmilab.ch/cship/craft.html The Relativistic Rocket Applet http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~obrian/applets/Rocket/Voyage.html Rocket simulations http://www.execpc.com/~culp/rockets/rckt_sim.html In addition; >> --part1_8d.13e93473.299decbd_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: From: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Full-name: STAR1SHIP Message-ID: <93.1829c8ee.299de033@aol.com> Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 22:53:23 EST Subject: Re: Is this a good address? To: dan@lakeweb.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 107 In a message dated 2/13/02 10:24:51 PM Pacific Standard Time, dan@lakeweb.net writes: << Don't think I won't work out your problem. And as most of the participants on sci.physics are interested in that chip on their shoulder, maybe I'll get their first! (Is that a contradiction in terms?) I've taken the simplistic view of SR for so long... Thanks for all your time and effort. Maybe sci.physics can be a place to learn from again. I'll do my best. Dan. >> Thanks, for the kind words and offer to help Dan. I need all the help I can get :). The given problem is indeed simple containing 3 varibles v,a and t with a and v given. Here is some of my more recent notes and an apple(t) to boot. Sent: 2/13/2002 10:00 PM From: karlsagan Sent: 2/13/2002 9:34 PM Mind you, I'm not, NOT, saying that you rocket motor couldn't reach a very large percent of the speed of light. Just not go as fast as light or faster. Much better Karl, note your rational thought marked in blue. Note also This applet lets you plan how long a trip will take on a rocket that travels near the speed of light. You type the distance of the trip (measured in light years) and the acceleration of the rocket (measured as a multiple of Earth's gravity). The rocket will accelerate at that rate for half of the trip, then decelerate at the same rate for the second half of the trip. The time for the trip is measured in two ways: (1) As seen by a person who stays behind on Earth, and (2) as measured by you on the ship. For your convenience, space-sickness pills are available aft of the observation lounge. pluging in 4.25 light years to near star at 1 g acceleration the calculater gives: Trip length: 4.25 light years. Acceleration: 1.0 g. Time on earth: 5.8780560467144 years. Time on ship: 3.544401860293398 years. The distance between the earth and a near star does not change. Next make some effort on your part to calculate with v = d/t and v'=d/t' the different velocites as v=d/t measured by the earth observer and v'=d/t' measured by the rocket man. Calculate v as observed always less than c and v' can be C-Vx, C or C + Vx. In the short trip given v'= C+Vx with Vx being some calculated velocity added to C or subtacted from C. Earth observation stops at C of C and C + V ship. Calculate a and a' from v and v' above. Use a' set at 1 g to exceed C wrt earth after earth observer stops seeing rocket at C wrt earth. Bon Voyage! C-ship: Our Sturdy Craft http://www.fourmilab.ch/cship/craft.html The Relativistic Rocket Applet http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~obrian/applets/Rocket/Voyage.html Rocket simulations http://www.execpc.com/~culp/rockets/rckt_sim.html In addition; --part1_8d.13e93473.299decbd_boundary-- From VM Mon Feb 18 09:54:43 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2834" "Friday" "15" "February" "2002" "06:32:26" "EST" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" nil "55" "starship-design: Notice of Trespass" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2834 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1FBWef6015817 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 03:32:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1FBWeXG015815 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 03:32:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-m06.mx.aol.com (imo-m06.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.161]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1FBWcf6015806 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 03:32:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from STAR1SHIP@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id z.12.1a70f4b7 (16781) for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 06:32:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <12.1a70f4b7.299e4bca@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 107 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com From: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Notice of Trespass Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 06:32:26 EST Declaration of Patent Property Rights Sought said patent for my invention both nationally and internationally, under the authority of the United States(US) and international Patent Cooperation Treaty(PCT), as patent applications prevent any other inventor from claiming my invention as their own until the end of time. My invention is the first star ship and the accepted application gives to me the independent inventor of small entity legal status, the sole legal right to assign, grant, or sell license to others to make, use, make modifications and improvements to, or operate my invention, I granted the first start ship license to drive it to myself making me the world's first legal star ship commander 'til the end of time. Universal Star Ship Patent Number 1 has issued and published to the general public as required by law. Any in the future must ask my permission to make, use, modify or operate my invention in the known universe 'til the end of time. Those that trespass on my property rights, will be notified of trespass on my property and be given opportunity to seek proper license giving proper application fee. Resistance is futile, they surrender my property to me or will have their star ship boarded, confiscated and any Earthling assisting them will have their premises, consisting of buildings and contents commandeered, or destroyed and any profits they made from my invention will be sized, and the trespassers be subject to fine and/or imprisonment. Those national/local governments, war lords, and others I may deem "unsavory characters" harboring, aiding or concealing the trespassers, will themselves be deemed illegal, unsavory and trespassers and share their fate. This listing of my property and trespass/penalty is noninclusive and I reserve the right to add to it at any time as I deem fit. Those found issuing star ship license I did not authorize to do so, said license will be confiscated, deemed fraudulent, fake, or phony and destroyed. Those licensees deemed toy will be returned marked in indelible black or red ink, or embossed metal stamped in prominent bold letters "TOY" Above the legal air space of legal Earth Governments, the universe is mine by the legal principle of "eminent domain" so any star ships consisting of others inventions I run into in deep space will boarded, given opportunity to pay toll, return from where they came from or risk destruction, confiscation of ship and contents, and imprisonment. Resistance is futile 'til the end of time. Thomas Hulon. Jackson World's Top Rocket Scientist, World's first legally listened star ship commander 'til the end of time. Please Direct All Questions Regarding This Matter: To The Attention Of Licensing And Review Star1ship@aol.com Note: the Number 1 in Star1ship: From VM Mon Feb 18 09:54:43 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3699" "Friday" "15" "February" "2002" "17:21:14" "-0800" "Curtis Manges" "clmanges@yahoo.com" nil "113" "Fwd: starship-design: Notice of Trespass" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3699 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1G1LFf6023263 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:21:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1G1LFWT023262 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:21:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13601.mail.yahoo.com (web13601.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.112]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g1G1LEf6023256 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:21:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20020216012114.69518.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.148.89.37] by web13601.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:21:14 PST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Curtis Manges From: Curtis Manges Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design Subject: Fwd: starship-design: Notice of Trespass Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:21:14 -0800 (PST) Wow! A real rip-snorter! And may I ask, with what do you intend to back up all this bravado? I hope questions like this don't spoil your party. You seem to be enjoying yourself rather largely, but I have to ask myself, why not?? So, what the hell, go for it. Sir. keep looking up, Curtis --- STAR1SHIP@aol.com wrote: > From: STAR1SHIP@aol.com > Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 06:32:26 EST > Subject: starship-design: Notice of Trespass > To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu > Reply-to: STAR1SHIP@aol.com > > > Declaration of Patent Property Rights > > Sought said patent for my invention both nationally and > internationally, > under the authority of the United States(US) and international > Patent > Cooperation Treaty(PCT), as patent applications prevent any other > inventor > from claiming my invention as their own until the end of time. My > invention > is the first star ship and the accepted application gives to me the > > independent inventor of small entity legal status, the sole legal > right to > assign, grant, or sell license to others to make, use, make > modifications and > improvements to, or operate my invention, I granted the first start > ship > license to drive it to myself making me the world's first legal > star ship > commander 'til the end of time. > > Universal Star Ship Patent Number 1 has issued and published to the > general > public as required by law. Any in the future must ask my permission > to make, > use, modify or operate my invention in the known universe 'til the > end of > time. > > Those that trespass on my property rights, will be notified of > trespass on my > property and be given opportunity to seek proper license giving > proper > application fee. Resistance is futile, they surrender my property > to me or > will have their star ship boarded, confiscated and any Earthling > assisting > them will have their premises, consisting of buildings and contents > > commandeered, or destroyed and any profits they made from my > invention will > be sized, and the trespassers be subject to fine and/or > imprisonment. > > Those national/local governments, war lords, and others I may deem > "unsavory > characters" harboring, aiding or concealing the trespassers, will > themselves > be deemed illegal, unsavory and trespassers and share their fate. > > This listing of my property and trespass/penalty is noninclusive > and I > reserve the right to add to it at any time as I deem fit. > > Those found issuing star ship license I did not authorize to do so, > said > license will be confiscated, deemed fraudulent, fake, or phony and > destroyed. > Those licensees deemed toy will be returned marked in indelible > black or red > ink, or embossed metal stamped in prominent bold letters "TOY" > > Above the legal air space of legal Earth Governments, the universe > is mine by > the legal principle of "eminent domain" so any star ships > consisting of > others inventions I run into in deep space will boarded, given > opportunity to > pay toll, return from where they came from or risk destruction, > confiscation > of ship and contents, and imprisonment. > > Resistance is futile 'til the end of time. > > Thomas Hulon. Jackson > World's Top Rocket Scientist, > World's first legally listened star ship commander 'til the end of > time. > > Please Direct All Questions Regarding This Matter: > To The Attention Of Licensing And Review > Star1ship@aol.com > Note: the Number 1 in Star1ship: ===== get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com From VM Mon Feb 18 09:54:43 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["8214" "Saturday" "16" "February" "2002" "04:06:43" "EST" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" nil "199" "Re: starship-design: Notice of Trespass" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 8214 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1G970f6024007 for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 01:07:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1G970Dk024006 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 01:07:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-r08.mx.aol.com (imo-r08.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.104]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1G96wf6023990 for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 01:06:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from STAR1SHIP@aol.com by imo-r08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id 5.17e.3ae16ac (25306); Sat, 16 Feb 2002 04:06:44 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <17e.3ae16ac.299f7b23@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 107 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com From: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: toxicroach@swbell.net CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Notice of Trespass Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 04:06:43 EST In a message dated 2/15/02 6:04:49 PM Pacific Standard Time, toxicroach@swbell.net writes: << starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu >> Subject: Re: Patent rights in space with dilated time near c? From: star1ship@aol.com (STAR1SHIP) Date: 2/15/02 8:23 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: <20020215232342.11761.00002377@mb-mq.aol.com> >ubject: Re: Patent rights in space with dilated time near c? >From: "Wayne Lundberg" Waynelund@worldnet.att.net >Date: 2/15/02 12:02 PM Pacific Standard Time >Message-id: > > >"STAR1SHIP" wrote in message >news:20020215114928.00963.00000400@mb-cu.aol.com... >> Ref:Notice of Trespass >> >> >> Declaration of Patent Property Rights >> >---ok, I'll bite---- > >How much do you want for a license to use star1ship on my letterhead? How >much for use in a novel I'm writing? > >Get serious here... > >Wayne Wayne, If, You are indeed serious send your proposal, $10.00 license application fee and combined personal education transcript to me for consideration. Additional fees may apply depending on the scope of the license you seek. I recognize and give full credit for all equivalent informal education including life experience if listed on a combined personal transcript of all education recorded, and documentable and transcribed in good faith by the person stating equivalency. The credit, I give, is not limited to the Doctorate level and extends beyond with performance in the field and extra credit is given for outstanding performance in the field. My equivalent education is based on: 16 informal classroom hours = 1 Formal semester hour. 32 lab work hours=1 Formal semester hour 72 on the job training(OJT)=1 Formal semester hour. The course level is highly standardized and = or greater than 1 formal course level. Independent work, authored by you is credited and = 1 Formal Masters thesis, or Doctoral Dissertation, depending on if it is a compilation of others past research as a thesis describing what is known or a dissertation with your independent individual contribution of knowledge, or technology advancing the field. Resumes, and Authored works: http://members.aol.com/tjac780754/bio.html Combined Personal Transcript: http://members.aol.com/tjac780754/Transcript.htm 8000 plus semester hours combine to make 4 PHDs if each one is considered to include hours from the other fields meeting minor and general education requirement to total not less than 4000 classroom hours. Certification to practice doctoring is limited to one "hat" at a time. 1 Bachelors degree = 2,000 Formal semester hours or 32,000 class hours informal training 1 Masters degree = 3,000 semester hours and one thesis or 48,000 class room hours 1 PHD = 4,000 semester hour hours and 1 dissertation or 64,000 class room hours. So start counting your education, as no one else knows how to. Few formal academic advisers and administration officers, know how to count much less count outside their ivory tower other academic education hours, much less how even read your scribed official and personal transcriptions. So you have to count them your self. Your education is your hard earned intellectual property. Do not ask others to give it to you, or let them take it from you. Define the borders of your property clearly by scribe. If any do not count it then it is your responsibility to "teach them to count" and do not hesitate make them respect your property as claimed if they do not recognize your property line as scribed. As it is written so shall it be done. Doctor Thomas Hulon Jackson Common Law Doctorates Math, Physics, Computer Science and General Education Example of independent work in the field, advancing the fields knowledge. Ref: Notice of Trespass 16 Feb 2002 From: Office of Universal Patent And Trade Marks (UPT) Paper number 2 Reply to Notice: requested by 2 April, 2002 Note: If no response is received in 45 days a Formal requirement will be made. Declaration of Patent Property Rights Sought said patent for my invention both nationally and internationally, under the authority of the United States(US) and international Patent Cooperation Treaty(PCT), as patent applications prevent any other inventor from claiming my invention as their own until the end of time. My invention is the first star ship and the accepted application gives to me the independent inventor of small entity legal status, the sole legal right to assign, grant, or sell license to others to make, use, make modifications and improvements to, or operate my invention, I granted the first start ship license to drive it to myself making me the world's first legal star ship commander 'til the end of time. Universal Star Ship Patent Number 1 has issued and all previous application have been abandoned as required by law. UPT Patent 1 is published to the general public meeting "Open Technology" as defined by law and required by law to preserve knowledge for future generations till the end of time. Any technology consisting of "trade secrets" expire by law in 14 years limiting "Secret Technology". Any in the future must ask my permission to make, use, modify or operate my invention in the known universe 'til the end of time. Those that trespass on my property rights, will be notified of trespass on my property and be given opportunity to seek proper license giving proper application fee. Resistance is futile, they surrender my property to me or will have their star ship boarded, confiscated and any Earthling assisting them will have their premises, consisting of buildings and contents commandeered, or destroyed and any profits they made from my invention will be sized, and the trespassers be subject to fine and/or imprisonment. Those national/local governments, war lords, and others I may deem "unsavory characters" harboring, aiding or concealing the trespassers, will themselves be deemed illegal, unsavory and trespassers and share their fate. Under the legal authority and precepts of "maritime Law "extending" to deep space... Those found committing Acts of Piracy, Sabotage or unauthorized action endangering my property and the lives of authorized personal on said property and including all those I harbor, aid and conceal in sanctuary: Those self same said Pirates and other unsavory characters will be confronted and themselves put in immediate extreme risk of loss of life or limb. Any survivors will, with jury prudence, be fined and imprisoned . This listing of my property and trespass/penalty is nonexclusive and I reserve the right to add to it at any time as I deem fit. Those found issuing star ship license I did not authorize to do so, said license will be confiscated, deemed fraudulent, fake, or phony and destroyed. Those licensees deemed toy will be returned marked in indelible black or red ink, or embossed metal stamped in prominent bold letters "TOY" By Maritime Law, Above the legal air and space of legal Earth Governments extends their legal jurisdiction to the moon by lawful "eminent domain" That physical property outside lunar orbit is mine by the legal principle of "eminent domain" so any star ships consisting of others inventions I run into in deep space will boarded, given opportunity to pay toll, return from where they came from or risk destruction, confiscation of ship and contents, and imprisonment. Resistance is futile 'til the end of time. Thomas Hulon. Jackson World's Top Rocket Scientist, World's first legally licensened star ship commander 'til the end of time. Please Direct All Questions Regarding This Matter: To The Attention Of Licensing And Review ICO Doctor Thomas Hulon Jackson Common Law Doctorates Math, Physics, Computer Science and General Education Star1ship@aol.com Plasma Rocket Engine http://members.aol.com/tjac780754/indexb.htm -------------------------------------- Note: the Number 1 in Star1ship From VM Mon Feb 18 09:54:43 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["7985" "Saturday" "16" "February" "2002" "16:04:01" "EST" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" nil "192" "Re: starship-design: Notice of Trespass" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 7985 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1GL4Ff6006389 for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:04:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1GL4FgF006387 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:04:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-m09.mx.aol.com (imo-m09.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.164]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1GL4Ef6006371 for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:04:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from STAR1SHIP@aol.com by imo-m09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id 5.131.8f6a8d9 (25307); Sat, 16 Feb 2002 16:04:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <131.8f6a8d9.29a02341@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 107 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com From: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: toxicroach@swbell.net CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Notice of Trespass Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 16:04:01 EST << That is great Tom! So when do we head for the stars? soon as you click on the applet below, or can drag mankind kind kicking and scraming there. Few would go. Crew will have to be hijacked. All I can give yoor to go is a apple(t) you can launch your self clicking the below link. < Let me know if there are any break throughs. Just mine, occuring on a daily basis. BTW have you ever read any of the Urantia Book? Talk about the stars and heavens and the universe always makes me think about it. Nope. Will see what I can find about it. I am also interest in the catholic books of bible sometimes put between the new and old testament. Know any thing about them? name, author where to locate. They had a lot of sex stuff in them so do not get around much after king james. One of my readers sk8r wrote, and I responded. It looks like some eyes are less dim now, it looks like some people are getting what I meant when I said it will have to be a two part ship, that is the way it is written in Egyptian engravings and scrolls........... my reply SK8R Yes, Two parts exhaust(e) and rocket(r) only as momentum(P) is equal to Mass(M) times Velocity(V) then in a reaction engine for each action there is a equal and opposite reaction conserving momentum (Newton's First Law expressed mathematicly as MeVe=MrVr as the momentum of the rocket in one direction is alway equal to the momentum of the exhaust in the other direction at any point in time any where in the universe so is considered a Universal Law. Jesus Christ or Anoksunamen must obey the Universal Law and if they ascended to the heavens in a 1 g rocket then they can easily return alive today obeying Einstein's relativity laws. So behave and obey the law cause they might be ticked off when they return. to another i wrote No telling what math errors will be found in the future. It would seem wise not to consider a minimum energy requirement journey to any star for the reasons you gave. Perhaps a craft would have to have enough energy to go anywhere in in the universe and back to succeed. I found some good numbers indicating that very possiblility even if the speed is limited to just below light speed. The only difference from C + V travel is your earth twin would be ancient bones if you return with the C -V ship. Here are the numbers for C -V ship dilated time near c Vs earth time at 10 g acceleration. Alpha Centauri 4.36 ly 268 days 0.999128 4.56 years Sirius 8.64 ly 314 days 0.999769 8.84 years Polaris 783 ly 1.71 years 0.999999997 783.4 years ...and onward to the heart of the galaxy... Nucleus, Milky Way 32616 ly 2.43 years 0.9999999999830 32637 years and into the realm beyond. The velocities start to take so many digits to write I have write them on the next line! Andromeda galaxy 2,180,000 ly 3.22 years 0.999999999999996 2,181,447 years Virgo cluster 42,000,000 ly 3.78 years V 42,027,876 years 0.99999999999999999 Quasar 3C273 2,500,000,000 ly 4.56 years V 2,501,659,318 years 0.999999999999999999997 Universe edge 17,000,000,000 ly 4.93 years V 17,011,283,360 years Grasshopper, Star travel is no place for girlie boys. Yoda How did yoda get in here? Here is the energy available for star travel calculations.for C plus or minus v ship. An ordinary chemical rocket can control by throttle an exhaust flow rate to give 1 g acceleration for several hours based on tests of rockets reaching an average 15g for many minutes such as "Hellious". At less than 1 year = 356 days time 24 hours =8544 hours of 1 g acceleration are needed to exceed c. Versus present chemical rockets, 8,544/3(several) times more power is needed so that acceleration time can be measured at greater than 356 days to excced c. The chemical vs atomic power to mass unit ratio based on atomic bomb and reactor test measurements are best "guesstamated" at 1,000,000 to 100,000,000 times the power possible with chemical rockets so atomic rockets of good design can maintain 1 g acceleration for 351 to 35100 years. This applet lets you plan how long a trip will take on a rocket that travels near the speed of light. You type the distance of the trip (measured in light years) and the acceleration of the rocket (measured as a multiple of Earth's gravity). The rocket will accelerate at that rate for half of the trip, then decelerate at the same rate for the second half of the trip. The time for the trip is measured in two ways: (1) As seen by a person who stays behind on Earth, and (2) as measured by you on the ship. For your convenience, space-sickness pills are available aft of the observation lounge. pluging in 4.25 light years to near star at 1 g acceleration the calculater gives: Trip length: 4.25 light years. Acceleration: 1.0 g. Time on earth: 5.8780560467144 years. Time on ship: 3.544401860293398 years. The distance between the eart and a near star does not change. Next make some effort on your part to calculate with v = d/t and v'=d/t' the different velocites as v=d/t measured by the earth observer and v'=d/t' calculate v as always less than c and v' can be C-Vx, C or C + Vx. In the short trip given v'= C+Vx with Vx being some calculated velocity added to C or subtacted from C. Bon Voyage! Tom C-ship: Our Sturdy Craft http://www.fourmilab.ch/cship/craft.html The Relativistic Rocket Applet http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~obrian/applets/Rocket/Voyage.html Rocket simulations http://www.execpc.com/~culp/rockets/rckt_sim.html In addition; From VM Mon Feb 18 09:54:43 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["170" "Saturday" "16" "February" "2002" "20:14:44" "-0700" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "5" "starship-design: anti-matter update" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 170 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1H3D2f6026777 for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 19:13:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1H3D2gx026776 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 19:13:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@main.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1H3D0f6026767 for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 19:13:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (gc-jet-216.jetnet.ab.ca [207.34.60.216] (may be forged)) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA02928 for ; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 20:12:59 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3C6F2024.1A70B855@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: starship-design: anti-matter update Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 20:14:44 -0700 Some intersting ideas with anti-matter http://www.synergistictech.com/projects.html -- Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From VM Mon Feb 18 09:54:43 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["7332" "Sunday" "17" "February" "2002" "10:48:48" "EST" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" nil "183" "Fwd: starship-design: Notice of Trespass" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 7332 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1HFmwf6003658 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 07:48:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1HFmwjY003657 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 07:48:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1HFmvf6003642 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 07:48:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from STAR1SHIP@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id z.14e.911fb28 (4330) for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 10:48:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <14e.911fb28.29a12ae0@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_14e.911fb28.29a12ae0_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 107 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com From: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Fwd: starship-design: Notice of Trespass Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 10:48:48 EST --part1_14e.911fb28.29a12ae0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/16/02 7:56:52 PM Pacific Standard Time, STAR1SHIP writes: << CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Hello Starship >Have you contacted NASA's Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Project? > They are looking new propulsion methods. My correspondence with JPL was terminated 9/11/01 and they are prohibited from talking to the general public. ALso, most JPL and NASA web sites are closed temporarily. My last corrospondace was regarding the inclusion of my works on a cd they were producing for public distibution but the project has halted. > How do you explain the enormous differences in the efficiencies of your fission engines from the fission engines of NASA? Mostly, They do not use atomic power to produce thrust. The use atomic power to do something else and then use the energy to heat something else to produce thust. Each time they do not directly use atomic power for thrust, they loose many factors of efficiency. Also the operationg temperaturs are so low that they are very ineficient at converting mass to energy. My invention solves those problems. > The US Government with Westinghouse as the contractor built and tested fission engines from 1956 thru 1971. > Have you built and tested your engine design?? The normally required "proof of principle test" for the china sydrome principle my invention operates on is well known from reactor studies, so is not required. > If so, what were the results? The other principles it operates on are common use in plasma torch technologies for titanium cutting torches containing plasmas to flash heat liquid to steam for cutting obtaining multi mach velocities applicaple to roket propulsion. My engine is a fusion/fission engine exhausting large amounts of radioactive decay products. There is nothing left to test. My constucted rocket has to be fired first from lunar orbit to comply with international treaty and envitotnmental laws. It is a deep space craft only not for use or testing near earth. Currently, NASA's concept for a space ship is a high flying airplane. NASA has no intention to going to the stars. > NASA calculated that it would take 1 billion super tanker sized tanks of fuel for a fission engine to get to the vicinity of Centarui Cluster. And this would take 900 years. Info from this NASA site: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/PAO/images/warp/warp06.gif >Repeat mine is a fusion/fission as both heavier and lighter radioactive decay products are produced. The ratio of fission/fusion products vary with operating temperatures and that varies with specific mission design. Note: fission and fusion were words coined 400 years ago by Roger Bacon for use in his alcameic turning lead into gold experiment. I seldom use the words my self. > How are your proposed new fuel propellant disks stored prior to use? Using the critical mass experiments described in the patent, depending on the choice of radioactive metals made say 5 inch by 1 inch disks are stored for immediate use in plasma generaters seperated by inches deep under the liguid propellant wrt the crew deck. When one plasma generater assembly is spent or over heats in the plasma chamber it is ejected into deep space, and another takes its's place using common gun multiple bullet to chamber technology. Tom >Don >> --part1_14e.911fb28.29a12ae0_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: From: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Full-name: STAR1SHIP Message-ID: <23.1967c2a8.29a08404@aol.com> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:56:52 EST Subject: Re: starship-design: Notice of Trespass To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com CC: tarship-design@lists.uoregon.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 107 Hello Starship >Have you contacted NASA's Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Project? > They are looking new propulsion methods. My correspondence with JPL was terminated 9/11/01 and they are prohibited from talking to the general public. ALso, most JPL and NASA web sites are closed temporarily. My last corrospondace was regarding the inclusion of my works on a cd they were producing for public distibution but the project has halted. > How do you explain the enormous differences in the efficiencies of your fission engines from the fission engines of NASA? Mostly, They do not use atomic power to produce thrust. The use atomic power to do something else and then use the energy to heat something else to produce thust. Each time they do not directly use atomic power for thrust, they loose many factors of efficiency. Also the operationg temperaturs are so low that they are very ineficient at converting mass to energy. My invention solves those problems. > The US Government with Westinghouse as the contractor built and tested fission engines from 1956 thru 1971. > Have you built and tested your engine design?? The normally required "proof of principle test" for the china sydrome principle my invention operates on is well known from reactor studies, so is not required. > If so, what were the results? The other principles it operates on are common use in plasma torch technologies for titanium cutting torches containing plasmas to flash heat liquid to steam for cutting obtaining multi mach velocities applicaple to roket propulsion. My engine is a fusion/fission engine exhausting large amounts of radioactive decay products. There is nothing left to test. My constucted rocket has to be fired first from lunar orbit to comply with international treaty and envitotnmental laws. It is a deep space craft only not for use or testing near earth. Currently, NASA's concept for a space ship is a high flying airplane. NASA has no intention to going to the stars. > NASA calculated that it would take 1 billion super tanker sized tanks of fuel for a fission engine to get to the vicinity of Centarui Cluster. And this would take 900 years. Info from this NASA site: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/PAO/images/warp/warp06.gif >Repeat mine is a fusion/fission as both heavier and lighter radioactive decay products are produced. The ratio of fission/fusion products vary with operating temperatures and that varies with specific mission design. Note: fission and fusion were words coined 400 years ago by Roger Bacon for use in his alcameic turning lead into gold experiment. I seldom use the words my self. > How are your proposed new fuel propellant disks stored prior to use? Using the critical mass experiments described in the patent, depending on the choice of radioactive metals made say 5 inch by 1 inch disks are stored for immediate use in plasma generaters seperated by inches deep under the liguid propellant wrt the crew deck. When one plasma generater assembly is spent or over heats in the plasma chamber it is ejected into deep space, and another takes its's place using common gun multiple bullet to chamber technology. Tom >Don --part1_14e.911fb28.29a12ae0_boundary-- From VM Mon Feb 18 09:54:43 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["704" "Sunday" "17" "February" "2002" "10:55:09" "EST" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" nil "25" "Re: starship-design: Notice of Trespass" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 704 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1HFtJf6004192 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 07:55:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1HFtJD3004191 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 07:55:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-m04.mx.aol.com (imo-m04.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.7]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1HFtIf6004184 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 07:55:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from STAR1SHIP@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id r.60.1b237a27 (4330); Sun, 17 Feb 2002 10:55:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <60.1b237a27.29a12c5d@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 107 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com From: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: clmanges@yahoo.com CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu (starship-design) Subject: Re: starship-design: Notice of Trespass Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 10:55:09 EST In a message dated 2/15/02 5:21:53 PM Pacific Standard Time, clmanges@yahoo.com writes: << Wow! A real rip-snorter! And may I ask, with what do you intend to back up all this bravado? Check out the weapons deck on cyber star ship A Definitive Analysis of Atomic Power http://members.aol.com/tjac780754/indexda.html and while your at check out cyber ship 2 http://members.aol.com/tjac780754/Page7.html > I hope questions like this don't spoil your party. You seem to be enjoying yourself rather largely, but I have to ask myself, why not?? So, what the hell, go for it. Sir. Having a Blast. Tom keep looking up, Curtis >> From VM Mon Feb 18 09:54:43 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["9597" "Monday" "18" "February" "2002" "02:41:18" "EST" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" nil "209" "starship-design: Is A Star Ship Practical Today ???" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 9597 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1I7fUf6020084 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 23:41:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1I7fUcN020083 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 23:41:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-m06.mx.aol.com (imo-m06.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.161]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1I7fTf6020077 for ; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 23:41:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from STAR1SHIP@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id r.a7.1bce1c9d (1321); Mon, 18 Feb 2002 02:41:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 107 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com From: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: clmanges@yahoo.com CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu (starship-design) Subject: starship-design: Is A Star Ship Practical Today ??? Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 02:41:18 EST Quote------------------------------: [Relativity FAQ] - [Copyright] Updated 14-January-1998 by PEG Original by Philip Gibbs 14-April-1997 http://www.weburbia.com/physics/FTL.html "When Einstein wrote down his postulates for special relativity he did not include the statement that you cannot travel faster than light. There is a misconception that it is possible to derive it as a consequence of the postulates he did give. Incidentally, it was Henri Poincare who said "Perhaps we must construct a new mechanics, ... in which the speed of light would become an impassable limit." That was in an address to the International Congress of Arts and Science in 1904 before Einstein announced special relativity in 1905." "It is a consequence of relativity that the energy of a particle of rest mass m moving with speed v is given by E = mc2/sqrt(1 - v2/c2) As the speed approaches the speed of light the energy approaches infinity. Hence is should be impossible to accelerate an object with rest mass to the speed of light and particles with zero rest mass must always go at exactly the speed of light otherwise they would have no energy. This is sometimes called the "light speed barrier" but it is very different from the "sound speed barrier". As an aircraft approaches the speed of sound it starts to feel pressure waves which indicate that it is getting close. With some more thrust it can pass through. As the light speed barrier is approached (in a perfect vacuum) there is no such effect according to relativity. Moving at 0.99999c is just like standing still with everything rushing past you at -0.99999c. Particles are routinely pushed to these speeds in accelerators so the theory is well established. Trying to get to the speed of light in this way is like trying to get to the pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. This explains why it is not possible to exceed the speed of light by ordinary mechanical means. End quote------------------ Einstein explained the above given equation as a limit on particle accelerator to accelerate the particle to only sub C as proven mathematically and by particle accelerator experiments. He then said "because" a particle accelerator has to provide the energy to accelerate the particle from a rest frame base to a relativistically increasing mass towards infinity so the energy required tended towards infinity. "In relativity calculation do not mix frames of reference. "It did not rule out a different machine being found that provides the energy from a different frame reference so would require the energy calculation being redone with the proper frame of reference" "Experiments can be poorly designed so as not to prove what they are intended to such as particle accelerator experiments and the Michale-Morleson experiment" -Einstein (1955) I can fairly assume that Einstein was the leading authority on relativity till 1955, and not Gibbs or others before and after who interpreted his equations some other way to mean a machine cannot be found to exceed C. Note 2 : I found that machine in an atomic rocket so calculate the energy requirements from converting a small part of exhaust mass to energy via M=E/C^2. This calculation uses the proper frame of reference taught Einstein as the "local" frame refereed to only in particle accelerator physics as the misnomer "target frame" as in common use today. Switching from particle accelerators to rocket engines "local" is the correct terminology. Just in last 50 years a math error was found that changed the calculated distance to the stars by a factor of "TWO" changing the size of the known universe to twice or 1/2 it's former size. No telling what math errors will be found in the future. It would seem wise not to consider a minimum energy requirement journey to any star for the reasons you gave. Perhaps a craft would have to have enough energy to go anywhere in the universe and back to succeed. I found some good numbers indicating that very possibility even if the speed is limited to just below light speed. The only difference from C + V travel is your earth twin would be ancient bones if you return with the C -V ship. Here are the numbers for C -V ship dilated time near c Vs earth time at 10 g acceleration. Reading C- ship our sturdy craft (The Lorentz) http://www.fourmilab.ch/cship/craft.html Alpha Centauri 4.36 ly 268 days 0.999128 4.56 years Sirius 8.64 ly 314 days 0.999769 8.84 years Polaris 783 ly 1.71 years 0.999999997 783.4 years ...and onward to the heart of the galaxy... Nucleus, Milky Way 32616 ly 2.43 years 0.9999999999830 32637 years and into the realm beyond. The velocities start to take so many digits to write I have write them on the next line! Andromeda galaxy 2,180,000 ly 3.22 years 0.999999999999996 2,181,447 years Virgo cluster 42,000,000 ly 3.78 years V 42,027,876 years 0.99999999999999999 Quasar 3C273 2,500,000,000 ly 4.56 years V 2,501,659,318 years 0.999999999999999999997 Universe edge 17,000,000,000 ly 4.93 years V 17,011,283,360 years Grasshopper, Star travel is no place for girlie boys. Yoda How did yoda get in here? Here is the energy available for star travel calculations.for C plus or minus v ship. An ordinary chemical rocket can control by throttle an exhaust flow rate to give 1 g acceleration for several hours based on tests of rockets reaching an average 15g for many minutes such as "Helios". At less than 1 year = 356 days time 24 hours =8544 hours of 1 g acceleration are needed to exceed c. Versus present chemical rockets, 8,544/3(several) times more power is needed so that acceleration time can be measured at greater than 356 days to exceed c. The chemical Vs atomic power to mass unit ratio based on atomic bomb and reactor test measurements are best "guesstamated" at 1,000,000 to 100,000,000 times the power possible with chemical rockets so atomic rockets of good design can maintain 1 g acceleration for 351 to 35100 years. The apple(t) The Relativistic Rocket Applet http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~obrian/applets/Rocket/Voyage.html lets you plan how long a trip will take on a rocket that travels near the speed of light. You type the distance of the trip (measured in light years) and the acceleration of the rocket (measured as a multiple of Earth's gravity). The rocket will accelerate at that rate for half of the trip, then decelerate at the same rate for the second half of the trip. The time for the trip is measured in two ways: (1) As seen by a person who stays behind on Earth, and (2) as measured by you on the ship. For your convenience, space-sickness pills are available aft of the observation lounge. Plugging in 4.25 light years to near star at 1 g acceleration the calculator gives: Trip length: 4.25 light years. Acceleration: 1.0 g. Time on earth: 5.8780560467144 years. Time on ship: 3.544401860293398 years. The distance between the earth and a near star does not change. Next make some effort on your part to calculate with v = d/t and v'=d/t' the different velocities as v=d/t measured by the earth observer and v'=d/t' Calculate v as always less than c and v' can be C-Vx, C or C + Vx. In the short trip given v'= C+Vx with Vx being some calculated velocity added to C or subtacted from C. Bon Voyage! Rocket simulations http://www.execpc.com/~culp/rockets/rckt_sim.html Doctor Thomas Hulon Jackson Common Law Doctorates Math, Physics, Computer Science and General Education Star1ship@aol.com -------------------------------------- Note: the Number 1 in Star1ship Universal Patent and Trademark(UPT) UPT Patent number 1 Star Ship- Plasma Rocket Engine http://members.aol.com/tjac780754/indexb.htm I boil water in a paper cup over a match by controlling the radiant, convection, and conductive heat paths using only match, water, and paper cup. I contain the 10,000,000 degree plus plasma many times hotter than the surface of the sun generated by radioactive metals above critical mass in my rocket engine preventing it from melting the walls of my engine by the same method of heat path control. using only liquid, engine casing and plasma. Matter exists in 4 states known from ancient times as earths, waters, winds, and fires known today as solids, liquids, gases and plasmas My engine, when starting, at the time that the plasma is hot enough to melt the mechanical supports and before the liguid propellant transitions to steam from the heat energy provided and before the steam transitions to the fourth state of matter(a plasma) a period of plasma position instability existed. That required I use a magnetic field to hold the metal plasma for the short time until the propellant transitions to plasma. After that point in time the position of the metal plasma is confined by hydrodynamic forces of liquid, steam and plasma much like a pig pong ball is contained in an air stream aimed at it. Ejected from the exhaust port at various high velocities, are radioactive metal decay products, liquid, steam and plasma with the total exhaust coined (Plasmelt). Like so: See working diagram picture at this link http://members.aol.com/tjac780754/Page1.html Click blue transporter bar to transport to table of contents and cyber space ship. See Cyber Ship 2 under construction http://members.aol.com/tjac780754/Page7.html From VM Mon Feb 18 14:41:07 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["518" "Monday" "18" "February" "2002" "16:30:05" "-0600" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "13" "RE: starship-design: Is A Star Ship Practical Today ???" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 518 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1IMUN0X016989 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:30:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1IMUNf9016984 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:30:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@traffic.gnt.net [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1IMUJ0X016950 for ; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:30:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadsword (user121.net241.fl.sprint-hsd.net [64.45.208.121]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id QAA13777; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:30:14 -0600 Message-ID: <000b01c1b8cb$d12a0b70$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: , Cc: "'starship-design'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Is A Star Ship Practical Today ??? Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:30:05 -0600 As you usual, you have totally mixed up your math. Frames of reference do NOT enter into the calculation in any way. It doesn't matter where (or what frame of reference) you get your energy from, the equation still tends to infinity. Since there isn't an amount of energy GREATER than infinity in any frame of reference, you are NEVER going to accelerate any ship to the speed of light. Period. Which explains why NASA and other people with half a brain are looking for ways AROUND the speed of light barrier. Lee From VM Tue Feb 19 07:46:28 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4327" "Tuesday" "19" "February" "2002" "08:21:51" "EST" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" nil "76" "starship-design: Star Ships FAQ and Rarely Asked Questions(RAQ)" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 4327 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1JDMd0X013109 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 05:22:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1JDMcqm013108 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 05:22:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-m08.mx.aol.com (imo-m08.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.163]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1JDMZ0X013092 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 05:22:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from STAR1SHIP@aol.com by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id 4.15d.93765f2 (30964); Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:21:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <15d.93765f2.29a3ab6f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 107 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com From: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: lparker@cacaphony.net CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Star Ships FAQ and Rarely Asked Questions(RAQ) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:21:51 EST I See below for the answers to these Rarely asked Questions(RAQ) about Star Ship, and Star1ship. -----------------------------------------------RAQ---------------------------- ------------------------------------ 1. How much do you want for a license to use star1ship on my letterhead? How much for use in a novel I'm writing? 2. What is equivalent education? 3. Where do I get credit for my informal training? 4. What is your education level? 5. How do I get my informal education to count? 6. What is a "Common Law" degree Vs a Formal Degree? 7. Isn't an official personal transcript given by a formal university administration official only? 8. Starship person, a web page that resembles a patent is not a patent. Either you have a real patent number, or you're making a fraudulent claim. Which is it? 9. Since you made an offer of sale to someone for licensing rights, under the guise of holding a patent, you're breaking the law. Not that it matters, 10. Nobody will bother to sue you (much less send you $10. Your "education"? Schools have "educational" standards, Do you? 11. Do you think you can even pass a formal education test? 12. You, couldn't even pass the Rorschach Test! Can You? 13. Have you contacted NASA's Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Project?They are looking new propulsion methods. 14. How do you explain the enormous differences in the efficiencies of your fission engines from the fission engines of NASA? NASA calculated that it would take 1 billion super tanker sized tanks of fuel for a fission engine to get to the vicinity of Centarui Cluster. And this would take 900 years. Info from this NASA site: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/PAO/images/warp/warp06.gif The US Government with Westinghouse as the contractor built and tested fission engines from 1956 thru 1971. 15. Have you built and tested your engine design?? 16. If so, what were the results? 17. I asked you if you had tested your fission engine design, you said: "The normally required "proof of principle test" for the China syndrome principle my invention operates on is well known from reactor studies, so is not required. There is nothing left to test." Wouldn't, A test pilot much differently. So would any investors, they would want to see many hours of full thrust operation before committing their lives or funds? 18. Is not your design just a theoretical concept, it is just conjecture on your part. Without actual tests you cannot know for sure if it will function after one firing. Your coolant system may fail allowing the engine to melt down or explode. Your reloading system may fail from exposure to radiation and heat. 19. True or False-Without actual tests you cannot know for sure if it will function after one firing. Your coolant system may fail allowing the engine to melt down or explode. Your reloading system may fail from exposure to radiation and heat. Only repeated testing will verify if your design will actually work. 20. With the restrictions on testing that you mentioned, it looks as if your star ship design has little chance of ever being tested. 21. If we cannot accelerate a very small particle to light speed how you gonna get a rocket to even near light speed. 22. Did any one ever look for or find Einstein's predicted C + V machine. 23. That is great Tom! So when do we head for the stars? 24. Well, I'm afraid we will all be dead before you become famous. Will we? 25. Won't it be will be our great great grand kids that see your name in the history books under famous American inventors who were ignored because they didn't have the right credentials or contacts. 26. Is it possible, maybe you will get to come back in another life and reap the rewards of your efforts. 27. However, I was hoping you would get filthy rich in this life and start living large, and I would go live with you and help you spend your fortune like a good friend is supposed to do? 28. Will you let me know if there are any break throughs? 29. BTW have you ever read any of the Urantia Book? Talk about the stars and heavens and the universe always makes me think about it. 30. What is a Universal Patent? 31. What Happens if someone inadvertently, or purposely trespasses on you intellectual patent property claim. Answers(Ans) to matching questions -next message. From VM Tue Feb 19 07:46:28 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["27483" "Tuesday" "19" "February" "2002" "08:29:39" "EST" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" nil "590" "Re: starship-design: Star Ships FAQ and Rarely Asked Questions(RAQ)" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 27483 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1JDU40X014850 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 05:30:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1JDU4gk014848 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 05:30:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-m01.mx.aol.com (imo-m01.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.4]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1JDU10X014749 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 05:30:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from STAR1SHIP@aol.com by imo-m01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id z.12d.cb7a0f8 (30964); Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:29:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <12d.cb7a0f8.29a3ad43@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 107 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com From: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Star Ships FAQ and Rarely Asked Questions(RAQ) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:29:39 EST Answers(Ans) to matching questions below. ----------------------------------------------------------------RAQ----------- ----------------------------------- 1. How much do you want for a license to use star1ship on my letterhead? How much for use in a novel I'm writing? Ans. If, You are indeed serious send your proposal, $10.00 license application fee and combined personal education transcript formal or equivalent to me for consideration. Additional fees may apply depending on the scope of the license you seek. I recognize and give full credit for all equivalent informal education including life experience if listed on a combined personal transcript of all education recorded, and documentable and transcribed in good faith by the person stating equivalency. 2. What is equivalent education? Ans. Education standard equal to or greater than the standards for formal education. 3. Where do I get credit for my informal training? Ans. The credit, I give, is not limited to the Doctorate level and extends beyond with performance in the field and extra credit is given for outstanding performance in the field. My equivalent education is based on: 16 informal classroom hours = 1 Formal semester hour. 32 lab work hours=1 Formal semester hour 72 on the job training(OJT)=1 Formal semester hour. The course level 0 through 10 is highly standardized and = or greater than 1 formal course level. Formal University Doctorate Level school training is limited to level 6 with 7-10 level work credited in field training, in formal on the job training progams(OJT) and Formal accredited lab work. Equivalent level 1-10 credit is given for informal OJT and nonaccredited Lab work. Extra credit is given for outstanding performance in the field. Independent work, authored by you is credited and = 1 Formal Masters thesis, or Doctoral Dissertation, depending on if it is a compilation of others past research as a thesis describing what is known or a dissertation with your independent individual contribution of knowledge, or technology advancing the field. 4. What is your education level? Ans. Resumes, and Authored works: http://members.aol.com/tjac780754/bio.html Combined Personal Transcript: http://members.aol.com/tjac780754/Transcript.htm 8000 plus semester hours combine to make 4 Ph.D's if each one is considered to include hours from the other fields meeting minor and general education requirement to total not less than 4000 classroom hours. Certification to practice doctoring is limited to one "hat" at a time. 1 Associates Degree =1,000 informal/formal class hours or 63 formal class semester hours 1 Bachelors degree = 2,000 informal/formal class hours or 125 formal class semester hours 1 Masters degree = 3,000 informal /formal class hours or 187 formal class semester hours 1 Ph.D. = 4,000 informal/formal class hours or 373 formal class semester hours 5. How do I get my informal education to count? Ans. Count your education, as no one else knows how to. Few formal academic advisers, administration officers, or (In)human resource (HR) officers know how to count much less count outside their ivory tower other academic education hours, much less how even read your scribed official and personal transcriptions. So you have to count them your self, before you teach anyone else how to count them. State in good faith it Is equivalent "common law" degrees Vs formal degrees. 6. What is a "Common Law" degree Vs a Formal Degree? Ans. If you do not know the answer to that question then "Your informal education does not count" and you are not allowed to count mine. 7. Isn't an official personal transcript given by a formal university administration official only? Ans. Your personal education as listed on a transcript scribed by you your education and is your official hard earned intellectual property. Do not ask or expect others to give it to you, or let them take it from you. Define the borders of your property clearly by scribe. If any do not count it then it is your responsibility to "teach them to count" and do not hesitate make them respect your property as claimed if they do not recognize your property line as scribed. As it is written so shall it be done. Doctor Thomas Hulon Jackson Common Law Doctorates Math, Physics, Computer Science and General Education 8. Starship person, a web page that resembles a patent is not a patent. Either you have a real patent number, or you're making a fraudulent claim. Which is it? Ans. The numbers are real numbers, as are the 40 some odd papers sent from the US Patent office to me in it's examination of my star ship. Universal Patent Number 1 Star Ship Operators License Number 1 Expiration Date- None Disclosure Document No.: 210758 Authority: U.S.,PCT; Patents pending U.S. 07/247,498 Plasma rocket engine; International Patent Cooperation Treaty PCT/US89/05888 Star Ship. 9. Since you made an offer of sale to someone for licensing rights, under the guise of holding a patent, you're breaking the law. Not that it matters, Ans. Wrong. I obey the law and can defend my property claim quite well thank you. I suggest you do the same. 10. Nobody will bother to sue you (much less send you $10. Your "education"? Schools have "educational" standards, Do you? Ans. My standards are higher and are equal to or exceeding most formal school standards. 11. Do you think you can even pass formal education test? Ans. I aced the USAF math bypass test containing 50 problems from the middle of advanced math and physics college texts covering all branches of math and physics finishing early in 1/2 to 3/4 time. I was the first in the history of the test to do ace it. A record (only one to ace) standing for 4 years though I do not know his time though the 100 was reported in national news. I remain the "first" number 1 till the end of time to pass that test and possible still hold the time record. The accomplishment allowed me to enter the USAF's prestigious "Little Red School House" where I graduated, in record time with Honor Diploma, post graduate school advanced credits and commendations and continued training in post graduate school with straight A grades. I have many advanced diplomas from the USAF Air University. The Air University is fully accredited to the doctor level. 12. You, couldn't even pass the Rorschach Test! Can You? Ans. You do not have to be crazy to be an inventor but it sure helps. 13. Have you contacted NASA's Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Project?They are looking new propulsion methods. Ans. My correspondence with JPL was terminated 9/11/01 and they are prohibited from talking to the general public. Also, most JPL and NASA web sites are closed temporarily. My last correspondence was regarding the inclusion of my works on a CD they were producing for public distribution for some advanced propulsion project but the project has halted. I do not know what happened to the $400 dollars they wanted from me. They have my credit card number they requested. My last transmission to JPL was the proposal information data they requested and the formal recommended reference citation and contact address and number. I do not expect to hear from them again anytime soon if at all. NASA nor JPL is looking for unsolicited propulsion proposals. NASA and JPL will accept "hard copy" unsolicited proposals mailed to a blind mailing address, but I work in cyber space real time only and they have no email or contact number listed. It is a dead end office as very few proposals are even examined much less responded to. 14. How do you explain the enormous differences in the efficiencies of your fission engines from the fission engines of NASA? NASA calculated that it would take 1 billion super tanker sized tanks of fuel for a fission engine to get to the vicinity of Centarui Cluster. And this would take 900 years. Info from this NASA site: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/PAO/images/warp/warp06.gif The US Government with Westinghouse as the contractor built and tested fission engines from 1956 thru 1971. Mostly, They do not use atomic power to produce thrust. The use atomic power to do something else and then use the energy to do something else eventually doing something to produce thrust, by ejecting a small amount of matter at high velocity. Each time they do not directly use atomic power for thrust, they loose many factors of efficiency expressed in percentile. The operating temperatures are so low that they are very energy inefficient, in the first place, at converting mass to energy. My invention solves those problems. Example. Internal combustion engine of typical 20 percent efficiency and less from incomplete chemical combustion wastes energy by energy transmission line loss as "something else events" from combustion chamber to rear wheels is expressed mathematical as typically. Percentage Efficiency=100 (.6 x .5 x .8 x ....n)=20 percent with n the product of each "something else". In line(not changing direction of energy) machines such as chemical rockets easily reach 99% efficiency not counting incomplete fuel combustion power losses. Prior to my invention the prior art efficiency of NASA atomic rockets are expressed mathematical as Percent efficiecny= 100(.0000.....n) = .0.....n percentage efficiency due to low operating temperatures expertly limiting mass to energy conversion efficiency and line loses from doing something else events. My invention solves those problems with much higher operating temperatures and eliminating something else events to produce a total efficiency near to 100 percent. 15. Have you built and tested your engine design?? Ans. My invention was first made and shown pratical(reduced to practice) in 1988 and accepted, by the USPTO as a Patent application completely described in two dimensions of paper with working diagrams so that others can build it in three dimensions. It has not been constructed(built) in 4 dimensions of space and time with matter with elements of mass. The normally required "proof of principle test" for the China syndrome principle my invention operates on is well known from reactor studies, so is not required. To see this principle at work, visualize placing working diagram of my rocket(r) upside down on a launch pad and fire. Calculate or measure the mass(Mr) times velocity(Vr) of the launchpad and earth in one direction as equal to the mass(Me) times the velocity(Ve) of the mass ejected from the China syndrome hole in the other direction thereby conserving momentum with Vr being insignificant but not zero expressed as MrVr=MeVe. derived from Newtons first Law considered Universal Law of cause and effect as each reaction has an equal and opposite reaction any where in space and time of the known universe. If your visitations tool is broken, fix or you may borrow my thought experiment to see. If not see radioactive metals above very small critical mass placed in shallow hole in 3 mile thick arctic ice sheet while measuring the mass and velocity of the earth and calculating from the hole after all burning has stopped the mass evacuated from the hole (exhaust port) to determine the velocity of the ejaculate. All required tests of my rocket engine are complete. 16. If so, what were the results? Ans. listed from A to K. A. All required tests of my rocket engine are complete. B. The other principles it operates on are common use in plasma torch technologies for titanium cutting torches containing plasmas to flash heat liquid to steam for cutting obtaining multi mach velocities applicable to rocket propulsion. C. My engine is a fusion/fission engine exhausting large amounts of radioactive decay products. D. There is nothing left to test. E. My constructed(built) rocket has to be fired first from lunar orbit to comply with international treaty and environmental laws. It is a deep space craft only not for use or further testing by others near Earth. F. Currently, NASA's concept for a space ship is a high flying airplane. G. NASA's Current Plans are "No intention to going to the stars any time soon maybe in the far distant future someday some one smarter than us might discover a reason and rocket engine to get us there in a reasonable time" H. How are your proposed new fuel propellant disks stored prior to use? I. NASA calculated that it would take 1 billion super tanker sized tanks of fuel for a fission engine to get to the vicinity of Centarui Cluster. And this would take 900 years. Info from this NASA site: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/PAO/images/warp/warp06.gif J. Repeat, mine is a fusion/fission as both heavier and lighter radioactive decay products are produced. The ratio of fission/fusion products vary with operating temperatures and that varies with specific mission design. K. Note: fission and fusion were words coined 400 years ago by Roger Bacon for use in his alchemic turning lead into gold experiment. I seldom use the words my self. 14 How are your proposed new fuel propellant disks stored prior to use? Using the critical mass experiments as construction tests described in the patent, depending on the choice of radioactive metals made say 5 inch by 1 inch disks are stored for immediate use in plasma generators separated by inches deep under the liquid propellant wrt the crew deck. When one plasma generator assembly is spent or over heats in the plasma chamber it is ejected into deep space, and another takes it's place using common gun multiple bullet to chamber technology. 17. I asked you if you had tested your fission engine design, you said: "The normally required "proof of principle test" for the China syndrome principle my invention operates on is well known from reactor studies, so is not required. There is nothing left to test." Wouldn't, A test pilot would think much differently. So would any investors, they would want to see many hours of full thrust operation before committing their lives or funds? Ans. A good inventor never builds an invention to see if it works, He knows that it will work and then he builds the invention, other wise, his garage soon fills up with unworking inventions and he gets out of the invention business. I am a licensed test pilot and only one authorized to fly my engine. I am not looking for out side funding. My research and development program is well funded by me. 'In the future should I seek outside "girlie boy" ," "chicken" or or other "monies" which is highly doubtful, funding is easy as they have seen me fly it and go boldly where no man as gone before and as Yoda sez. Grasshopper, Star travel is no place for girlie boys. Yoda 18. Is not your design just a theoretical concept, it is just conjecture on your part. Without actual tests you cannot know for sure if it will function after one firing. Your coolant system may fail allowing the engine to melt down or explode. Your reloading system may fail from exposure to radiation and heat. That conjecture just stated is yours. Accept responsibility for it. Theory's and conjecture are not acceptable in patent applications. To be accepted as patent applications it is required to have been made, made practical (reduced to practice). My application was accepted as my invention is made and reduced to practice(1988). 19. True or False-Without actual tests you cannot know for sure if it will function after one firing. Your coolant system may fail allowing the engine to melt down or explode. Your reloading system may fail from exposure to radiation and heat. Only repeated testing will verify if your design will actually work? Silly thought, on your part. My first firing will work or it will not. It will work as advertised. 20. With the restrictions on testing that you mentioned, it looks as if your star ship design has little chance of ever being tested. Ans. All tests are completed. 21. If we cannot accelerate a very small particle to light speed how you gonna get a rocket to even near light speed. Ans. Einstein explained the given equation as a limit on particle accelerator to accelerate the particle to only sub C as proven mathematically and by particle accelerator experiments. He then said "because" a particle accelerator has to provide the energy to accelerate the particle from a rest frame base to a relativistically increasing mass towards infinity so the energy required tended towards infinity. "In relativity calculation do not mix frames of reference. "It did not rule out a different machine being found that provides the energy from a different frame reference so would require the energy calculation being redone with the proper frame of reference" "Experiments can be poorly designed so as not to prove what they are intended to such as particle accelerator experiments and the Miclhle-Morleson experiment" -Einstein (1955) 22. Did any one ever look for or find Einstein's predicted C + V machine. I found that machine in an atomic rocket so calculate the energy requirements from converting a small part of exhaust mass to energy via M=E/C^2. This calculation uses the proper frame of reference taught Einstein as the "local" frame reference to only in particle accelerator physics as the misnomer "target frame" as in common use today. Switching from particle accelerators to rocket engines "local" is the correct terminology. 23. That is great Tom! So when do we head for the stars? Soon as you click on the applet below, or can drag mankind kind kicking and screaming there. Few would go. Crew will have to be hijacked. All I can give you to go is an apple(t) you can launch your self clicking the below link. 24. Well, I'm afraid we will all be dead before you become famous. Will we? Ans. Reckon not. Even if I leave to the stars in a 1 g ship going to near light speed. by the time I return my earth twin will be ancient bones due to Time dilation effects. I have to use C + V ship to shake his hand on return. 25. Won't it be will be our great great grand kids that see your name in the history books under famous American inventors who were ignored because they didn't have the right credentials or contacts. Ans. Rekon so. I did not chose to go to the stars for the parade back home. 26. Is it possible, maybe you will get to come back in another life and reap the rewards of your efforts. Ans.Reincarnation? What happened to that nice catholic school boy I was friends with in 1965? Do not let the pope see this but: A reader writes..... It looks like some eyes are less dim now, it looks like some people are getting what I meant when I said it will have to be a two part ship, that is the way it is written in Egyptian engravings and scrolls........... My reply Two parts exhaust(e) and rocket(r) only as momentum(P) is equal to Mass(M) times Velocity(V) then in a reaction engine for each action there is a equal and opposite reaction conserving momentum (Newton's First Law expressed mathematicly as MeVe=MrVr as the momentum of the rocket in one direction is alway equal to the momentum of the exhaust in the other direction at any point in time any where in the universe so is considered a Universal Law. Jesus Christ or Anoksunamen must obey the Universal Law and if they ascended to the heavens in a 1 g rocket then they can easily return alive today obeying Einstein's relativity laws. So behave and obey the law cause they might be ticked off when they return. 27. However, I was hoping you would get filthy rich in this life and start living large, and I would go live with you and help you spend your fortune like a good friend is supposed to do? Ans. Still hopeful but if I end up famous only after death perhaps it is a type of immortality itself to be spoken of until the end of time. Even today I enjoy my 3 minutes of fame with the worlds first legal star ship license. You know what they say about inventors of new technology-as first. you remain number 1 till the end of time. 28. Will you let me know if there are any break throughs? Ans Just mine, occurring on a daily basis. 29. BTW have you ever read any of the Urantia Book? Talk about the stars and heavens and the universe always makes me think about it. Ans. Nope. Will see what I can find about it. I am also interest in the catholic books of bible sometimes put between the new and old testament or just after revelations. Know any thing about them? name, author where to locate. They had a lot of sex stuff in them so do not get around much after King James. To another reader I wrote: Mathematician in the last 50 years discovered a calculation mistake of a two factor reducing or expanding the known universe to twice or 1/2 it previous size. I forget which. No telling what math errors will be found in the future. It would seem wise not to consider a minimum energy requirement journey to any star for the reasons I just gave. Perhaps a craft would have to have enough energy to go anywhere in the universe and back to succeed. I found some good numbers indicating that very possibility even if the speed is limited to just below light speed. The only difference from C + V travel is my earth twin would be ancient bones if I return with the C -V ship. 30. What is a Universal Patent? AAns. A patent I invented in 1988 as a patent law with some teeth in it as national and international patents and treaties in a relative few countries were toothless considering the hundreds of nations, and entire universe beyond the moon not in their legal jurisdiction, so existing Patent Law required an amended patent law so I wrote it. As it is written so shall it be done in. 31. What Happens if someone inadvertently, or purposely trespasses on you intellectual patent property claim. Ans. I send them a "NOTICE OF TRESPASS" UPT form 1. paper 2. Example of independent work in the field, advancing the fields knowledge. ------------------------------------------------------------ Ref: NOTICE OF TRESPASS 16 Feb 2002 GREETINGS From: Office of Universal Patent And Trade Marks (UPT) Star1ship@aol.com Paper number 2 Reply to Notice: requested by 2 April, 2002 Note: It has come to my attention, that you may have inadvertently, or purposely trespassed on my intellectual property. Note: If no response is received in 45 days a Formal Declaration of War will be made and issued. Declaration of Patent Property Rights Sought said patent for my invention both nationally and internationally, under the authority of the United States(US) and international Patent Cooperation Treaty(PCT), as patent applications prevent any other inventor from claiming my invention as their own until the end of time. My invention is the first star ship and the accepted application gives to me the independent inventor of small entity legal status, the sole legal right to assign, grant, or sell license to others to make, use, make modifications and improvements to, or operate my invention, I granted the first start ship license to drive it to myself making me the world's first legal star ship commander 'til the end of time. Universal Star Ship Patent Number 1 has issued and all previous application have been abandoned as required by law. UPT Patent 1 is published to the general public meeting "Open Technology" as defined by law and required by law to preserve knowledge for future generations till the end of time. Any technology consisting of "trade secrets" expire by law in 14 years limiting "Secret Technology". Any in the future must ask my permission to make, use, modify or operate my invention in the known universe 'til the end of time. Those that trespass on my property rights, will be notified of trespass on my property and be given opportunity to seek proper license giving proper application fee. Resistance is futile, they surrender my property to me or will have their star ship boarded, confiscated and any Earthling assisting them will have their premises, consisting of buildings and contents commandeered, or destroyed and any profits they made from my invention will be sized, and the trespassers be subject to fine and/or imprisonment. Those national/local governments, war lords, kings, potentates and others I may deem "unsavory characters" harboring, aiding or concealing the trespassers, will themselves be deemed illegal, unsavory and trespassers and share their fate. Under the legal authority and precepts of "maritime Law "extending" to deep space... Those found committing Acts of Piracy, Sabotage or unauthorized action endangering my property and the lives of authorized personal on said property and including all those I harbor, aid and conceal in sanctuary: Those self same said Pirates and other unsavory characters will be confronted and themselves put in immediate extreme risk of life or limb. Any survivors will, with jury prudence and great duress, be fined and imprisoned . This listing of my property and trespass/penalty is nonexclusive and I reserve the right to add to it at any time as I deem fit. Those found issuing star ship license I did not authorize to do so, said license will be confiscated, deemed fraudulent, fake, or phony and destroyed. Those licensees deemed toy will be returned marked in indelible black or red ink, or embossed metal stamped in prominent bold letters "TOY" By Maritime Law, Above the legal air and space of legal Earth Governments extends their legal jurisdiction to the moon by lawful "eminent domain" That physical property outside lunar orbit iconsisting of the rest of the universe is mine by the legal principle of "eminent domain" so any star ships consisting of others inventions I run into in deep space will boarded, given opportunity to pay toll, return from where they came from or risk destruction, confiscation of ship and contents, and imprisonment. Resistance is futile 'til the end of time. I am an American Man standing Free on American Land. As a independent small entity, I am certainly endowed by my creator with inalienable rights, a few listed are Freedom, Life, Liberty, Property, and the Pursuit of Happiness. I pray to my creator to give mercy to those departed souls trespassing on my property, for I will give them notice and opportunity too leave, and if they do not, no mercy will be given. I care not if they be good men or bad men. I am not the judge. God will make that judgment. I just deem some unsavory and send unsavory characters to him for judgment. As it is written so shall it be done in: UNIVERSAL PATENT LAW NUMBER ONE (written with tooth and nail). Please respond in 45 days or a formal requirement (declaration of war) will be made. Please Direct All Questions Regarding This Matter: To The Attention Of Licensing And Review ICO Doctor Thomas Hulon Jackson Common Law Doctorates Math, Physics, Computer Science and General Education World's Top Rocket Scientist, World's first legally licensened star ship commander 'til the end of time. Star1ship@aol.com Plasma Rocket Engine http://members.aol.com/tjac780754/indexb.htm Note: the Number 1 in Star1ship@America On Line. ----------------------NOTICE OF TRESSPASS" UPT Form 1. Paper 2.-------------------------------------- From VM Tue Feb 19 07:46:28 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["880" "Tuesday" "19" "February" "2002" "08:35:18" "EST" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" nil "17" "Re: starship-design: Is A Star Ship Practical Today ???" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 880 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1JDa50X016762 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 05:36:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1JDa5Fh016760 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 05:36:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-m04.mx.aol.com (imo-m04.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.7]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1JDa20X016428 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 05:36:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from STAR1SHIP@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id 4.18d.39251d7 (30964); Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:35:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <18d.39251d7.29a3ae96@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 107 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com From: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: lparker@cacaphony.net CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Is A Star Ship Practical Today ??? Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:35:18 EST In a message dated 2/18/02 2:31:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, lparker@cacaphony.net writes: << As you usual, you have totally mixed up your math. Frames of reference do NOT enter into the calculation in any way. It doesn't matter where (or what frame of reference) you get your energy from, the equation still tends to infinity. Since there isn't an amount of energy GREATER than infinity in any frame of reference, you are NEVER going to accelerate any ship to the speed of light. Period. >> Your mixing machines. Particle accelerators have nothing to do with atomic rockets. Do the math, use the correct frame of refernece for delivering energy to a payload. It moves and is not a rest frame like a acclerator base. Einstein and I agree as would you if you stoped mixing frames and machine and could actually do some math. which is an ability not demostrated by you. From VM Tue Feb 19 08:50:04 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1338" "Tuesday" "19" "February" "2002" "08:43:39" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "26" "Re: starship-design: Is A Star Ship Practical Today ???" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1338 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1JGi2UT025401 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:44:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1JGi2Pd025400 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:44:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1JGi1UT025395 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:44:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [206.163.182.194]) by clavin.efn.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1JGhxV16943 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:43:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1JGheN13505; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:43:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15474.32955.481329.922251@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <18d.39251d7.29a3ae96@aol.com> References: <18d.39251d7.29a3ae96@aol.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under 21.4 (patch 6) "Common Lisp" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Is A Star Ship Practical Today ??? Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:43:39 -0800 STAR1SHIP@aol.com writes: > In a message dated 2/18/02 2:31:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, > lparker@cacaphony.net writes: > > << As you usual, you have totally mixed up your math. Frames of reference do > NOT enter into the calculation in any way. It doesn't matter where (or what > frame of reference) you get your energy from, the equation still tends to > infinity. Since there isn't an amount of energy GREATER than infinity in any > frame of reference, you are NEVER going to accelerate any ship to the speed > of light. Period. >> > > Your mixing machines. Particle accelerators have nothing to do with atomic > rockets. > Do the math, use the correct frame of refernece for delivering energy to a > payload. It moves and is not a rest frame like a acclerator base. > > Einstein and I agree as would you if you stoped mixing frames and machine and > could actually do some math. which is an ability not demostrated by you. I don't think Einstein would agree with you, particularly since you think there is a difference between a "moving frame" and a "rest frame". The underlying principle of relativity is that the laws of physics are the same in any frame of reference. We've done the math, and your ludicrous "atomic rocket" won't even be able to achieve 0.1 c given the amount of fuel you specify. From VM Wed Feb 20 10:37:32 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1076" "Wednesday" "20" "February" "2002" "05:52:47" "EST" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" nil "31" "Re: starship-design: Is A Star Ship Practical Today ???" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1076 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1KArTUT020226 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 02:53:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1KArTD3020225 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 02:53:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-r01.mx.aol.com (imo-r01.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.97]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1KArSUT020215 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 02:53:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from STAR1SHIP@aol.com by imo-r01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id 4.187.3a213ad (4238); Wed, 20 Feb 2002 05:52:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <187.3a213ad.29a4d9ff@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 107 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com From: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: lparker@cacaphony.net CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Is A Star Ship Practical Today ??? Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 05:52:47 EST In a message dated 2/19/02 5:48:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, lparker@cacaphony.net writes: << I said nothing about any particular machine. I've done the math. So have half a dozen other people on this list. It has NOTHING to do with mixing frames of reference, which by the way is what you are doing, not me. When you can post a properly formulated and correctly executed solution using the right formulas I will be happy to look at them in detail. So will others. This drivel isn't worth the time. Lee >> Funny. Place the educational transcripts of each of the dozen members of this list end to end they just might equal to the length of mine just counting my A's. Calculate the actual max velocity of the given rocket engine, and establish just a small degree of credibilty with me. Otherwise, unless you wright it down nobody is going to pay any attention to what you say. Talk is cheap Prove your notion of a C speed limit with credible source. Waiting.... Wating....... Waiting........ Still waiting........ sigh waiting.................... From VM Mon Feb 25 09:23:24 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2967" "Friday" "22" "February" "2002" "00:36:16" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "110" "starship-design: Re: Spacedrive" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2967 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1M5aZUT027059 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:36:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1M5aZGq027058 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:36:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-r09.mx.aol.com (imo-r09.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.105]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1M5aXUT027044 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:36:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-r09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id b.61.1b585ae4 (4199); Fri, 22 Feb 2002 00:36:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <61.1b585ae4.29a732d0@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: energy@isl.is CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Spacedrive Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 00:36:16 EST Dear Thorsteinn Olafsson, Thanks for your interest, but I'm no longer with NASA and the LIT site never had any funding to do research and development. Nor do we have connections to aquire any. Its sounds like you have a theoretical concept with no working hardware. This will make it VERY hard to interest any investors, even if your concept was less exotic. You'll need either the support of a very well respected scientist or institution (who will support your claim of a very promising breakthrough), or you will need a testable prototype you can demonstrate to the public and investors. At the moment even the first would be unlikely to get you investor support unless the device would offer MASSIVE profit. Even designers with fusion reactor designs considered promising by the US government, can find little funding. Sorry I have no helpful advice. Good luck. Kelly Starks In a message dated 2/21/02 9:12:22 PM, energy@isl.is writes: > > >Kelly Stark, > > > > > > > >I saw your website and was thinking whether you were still in on the spaceprogram >and to design vehicles or technologies for such purpose? The reason I ask >this is because I am an inventor which have a spacedrive technology that >might open up space for us. I have been trying to introduce my project >to several sources but the agencies and institutions I have contacted seem >to be running their program on some strick schedule. This means that to >manage to do something like this or deal with more unconventional technologies >it have to be financed by the private sector and a people with an open >mind. > > > > > > > >I might be a pretty good inventor but my sources becomes very poor when >comes to financial issues or to fund something like this. In that case >I was thinking whether it would be possible to join forces in these matters? > > > > > > > >I have of course details over my technologies but the technologies are >mathematically proven where very simple and positive tests have been done >but where the technology still needs further development of course. The >physics behind this also explains certain factors in our environment or >in conventional physics which still have not been explained or understood. >In that case what is good about this technology is that if I am correct >about this which I think I am then the calculations showes pretty clear >how much thrust the spacedrive gives out compared to size and weight. At >certain point I was aiming at the Xprize competiton but that is not the >main issue. > > > > > > > >As I said before then I need fund regarding this project to be able to >continue and in my mind this spacedrive technology could look quite promising >even though certain technical factors must be solved. This technology is >very simple and will be cheap to build. > > > > > > > >Just so you know then I am not joking about this. > > > > > > > >Sincerely > > > >Thorsteinn Olafsson > > > >Reykjavik, Iceland From VM Mon Feb 25 09:23:24 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6938" "Friday" "22" "February" "2002" "05:06:01" "EST" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" nil "184" "Re: starship-design: Re: Spacedrive" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 6938 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1MA6JUT024563 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 02:06:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1MA6J97024562 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 02:06:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-m04.mx.aol.com (imo-m04.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.7]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1MA6HUT024548 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 02:06:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from STAR1SHIP@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id b.43.6f7e758 (16782); Fri, 22 Feb 2002 05:06:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <43.6f7e758.29a77209@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 107 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com From: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: energy@isl.is CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Spacedrive Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 05:06:01 EST In a message dated 2/21/02 9:37:12 PM Pacific Standard Time, KellySt@aol.com writes: << Subj: starship-design: Re: Spacedrive Date: 2/21/02 9:37:12 PM Pacific Standard Time From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Reply-to: KellySt@aol.com To: energy@isl.is CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Dear Thorsteinn Olafsson, Thanks for your interest, but I'm no longer with NASA and the LIT site never had any funding to do research and development. Nor do we have connections to aquire any. Its sounds like you have a theoretical concept with no working hardware. In a message dated 2/21/02 9:12:22 PM, energy@isl.is writes: > > >Kelly Stark, > > > > > > > >I saw your website and was thinking whether you were still in on the spaceprogram >and to design vehicles or technologies for such purpose? Hi Thorstein, I am Tom, inventor of a space drive my self so have been where you are now so will try to be helpful, but can do better with private correspondence out side this group for the group is good for evaluating many well known technologies and you cannot beat the database at LIT for good info. However; evaluating "new" technologies requires special skills and training in the prior art. That would be me, you need to talk to. As new technologies are fragile and the inventors need the upmost respect and not critisim and skeptical discourse. So please use private correspondance with me for an "objective evaluation". If you require a written "statement of confidentiality" from me you will recieve it, if your intelectual property is not yet protected by copyright, patent application, or document as your authored works filed with your local courthouse and date stamped should prior invention issues arrive. >The reason I ask >this is because I am an inventor which have a spacedrive technology that >might open up space for us. I have been trying to introduce my project >to several sources but the agencies and institutions I have contacted seem >to be running their program on some strick schedule. I found that out also. > This means that to >manage to do something like this or deal with more unconventional technologies >it have to be financed by the private sector and a people with an open >mind. What size monies are you talking about? "All machines are expandable or reducable in size depending on how big or small we can make the parts." That is the second law of engineering following "form follows funtction" Aalso people > > > > > >I might be a pretty good inventor but my sources becomes very poor when >comes to financial issues or to fund something like this. In that case >I was thinking whether it would be possible to join forces in these matters? Does it require any precious metals or special nuclear materials. or future discovery. If not make a little bitty one to demonstarate in a proof of prinuiple test" It makes no sense for an inventor to build his invention to see if it will work. A good inventor knows his invention will work and then he builds it. Other wise his garage soon fill up with unworking inventions and he gets out of the business. > >I have of course details over my technologies but the technologies are >mathematically proven where very simple and positive tests have been done Very good. state if you need a written statement of confidentialy from me before you can discuss it. >but where the technology still needs further development of course. The >physics behind this also explains certain factors in our environment or >in conventional physics which still have not been explained or understood. No problem, There is no legal reguirement any inventor knows what an atom looks like or how it works because no scientists know that. All atom models are "theory" >In that case what is good about this technology is that if I am correct >about this which I think I am then the calculations showes pretty clear >how much thrust the spacedrive gives out compared to size and weight. At >certain point I was aiming at the Xprize competiton but that is not the >main issue. Agreed. It is good to adreess only the issues. > >As I said before then I need fund regarding this project to be able to >continue and in my mind this spacedrive technology could look quite promising >even though certain technical factors must be solved. This technology is Can they be solved with thought experiments? Can the solutions already exist but not researched historically in a world wide patent search of existing technology.? Would you like me to teach you or do the world wide search yourself for free. If not I will do the search for you free. >very simple and will be cheap to build. Very special indeed. >Just so you know then I am not joking about this. I see no new technology as a "Joke" > >Sincerely > >Thorsteinn Olafsson > >Reykjavik, Iceland Regards, Thomas Hulon Jackson (Tom) Independent Small Entity Inventor of Star Ship-Plasma Rocket Engine. Plasma Rocket Engine http://members.aol.com/tjac780754/indexb.htm ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-xg04.mx.aol.com (rly-xg04.mail.aol.com [172.20.115.201]) by air-xg04.mail.aol.com (v83.42) with ESMTP id MAILINXG41-0222003712; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 00:37:12 -0500 Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (darkwing.uoregon.edu [128.223.142.13]) by rly-xg04.mx.aol.com (v83.35) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXG410-0222003644; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 00:36:44 -0500 Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1M5aZUT027059 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:36:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1M5aZGq027058 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:36:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-r09.mx.aol.com (imo-r09.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.105]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1M5aXUT027044 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:36:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-r09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id b.61.1b585ae4 (4199); Fri, 22 Feb 2002 00:36:16 -0500 (EST) From: KellySt@aol.com Message-ID: <61.1b585ae4.29a732d0@aol.com> Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 00:36:16 EST Subject: starship-design: Re: Spacedrive To: energy@isl.is CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com >> From VM Mon Feb 25 16:06:36 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["7110" "Monday" "25" "February" "2002" "18:00:31" "-0600" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "170" "starship-design: LIC" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 7110 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1Q00osb009854 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:00:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1Q00oct009853 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:00:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@traffic.gnt.net [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1Q00msb009838 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:00:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadsword (user121.net241.fl.sprint-hsd.net [64.45.208.121]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id SAA02868 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:00:42 -0600 Message-ID: <009501c1be58$9c0e0ad0$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0096_01C1BE26.51739AD0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design List \(E-mail\)" Subject: starship-design: LIC Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:00:31 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0096_01C1BE26.51739AD0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0097_01C1BE26.51739AD0" ------=_NextPart_001_0097_01C1BE26.51739AD0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_002_0098_01C1BE26.51739AD0" ------=_NextPart_002_0098_01C1BE26.51739AD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We were talking about ramjets at one point in time. Here is an interesting representation of the Local Interstellar Cloud (LIC). http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap020210.html Lee ------=_NextPart_002_0098_01C1BE26.51739AD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We were = talking about=20 ramjets at one point in time. Here is an interesting representation of = the Local=20 Interstellar Cloud (LIC).
 
http://antwrp.gsf= c.nasa.gov/apod/ap020210.html
 
Lee
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Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="SandCastle Contractors, Inc. Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Parker;L. FN:L. Clayton Parker (E-mail) ORG:SandCastle Contractors, Inc. TEL;WORK;VOICE:(850) 650-6588 TEL;HOME;VOICE:(850) 654-4773 TEL;CELL;VOICE:(850) 585-5502 TEL;CAR;VOICE:(850) 585-5504 TEL;WORK;FAX:(850) 650-6588 ADR;WORK:;;P.O. Box 1762;Destin;FL;32540-1762 LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:P.O. Box 1762=3D0D=3D0ADestin, FL = 32540-1762 EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:lparker@cacaphony.net REV:20011020T212607Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_0096_01C1BE26.51739AD0-- From VM Sun Mar 10 16:36:58 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["296" "Friday" "8" "March" "2002" "17:39:23" "-0800" "Curtis Manges" "clmanges@yahoo.com" nil "17" "starship-design: more wallpaper" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 296 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g291dOP6025533 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 17:39:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g291dOx8025529 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 17:39:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13607.mail.yahoo.com (web13607.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.118]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g291dNP6025520 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 2002 17:39:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20020309013923.40449.qmail@web13607.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.148.88.229] by web13607.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 08 Mar 2002 17:39:23 PST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Curtis Manges From: Curtis Manges Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design Subject: starship-design: more wallpaper Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 17:39:23 -0800 (PST) wallpaper! ! WOW ! http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap020308.html enjoy, and keep looking up Curtis ===== get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From VM Sun Mar 10 16:36:58 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3756" "Sunday" "10" "March" "2002" "07:53:51" "-0600" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "100" "starship-design: Report: Make deep space travel a family affair" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3756 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2ADsEP6001406 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 05:54:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2ADsElF001405 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 05:54:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@traffic.gnt.net [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2ADsCP6001396 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 05:54:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadsword (user121.net241.fl.sprint-hsd.net [64.45.208.121]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id HAA17907 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 07:54:09 -0600 Message-ID: <001b01c1c83b$040d2300$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01C1C808.B972B300" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design List \(E-mail\)" Subject: starship-design: Report: Make deep space travel a family affair Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 07:53:51 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C1C808.B972B300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Report: Make deep space travel a family affair Leaving 'yucky, dirty Earth' behind March 9, 2002 Posted: 8:11 AM EST (1311 GMT) By Richard Stenger CNN (CNN) -- Forget Captain Kirk and the Enterprise crew. The right stuff to search for distant planetary systems will be people linked not by political ties but familial ones, according to a Florida scientist. Close blood relatives have the ideal organization and motivation to overcome the kinds of stresses likely to challenge deep-space missions extending two centuries or more, says University of Florida anthropologist John Moore. "We are much less likely to go crazy in space and much more likely to accomplish our interstellar missions if we send crews into space that are organized along family lines," he says. Families possess well-defined pecking orders between parents and children, older and younger siblings. They function along clear divisions of labor, which promote the accomplishment of various levels of work, Moore reasons. Experience on Earth already provides plenty of precedent, he says. "Whenever colonization is done on Earth, it's always by people looking for a life. All of the colonization that I know about as an anthropologist has been done by families, especially young couples," he says. Pre-inter-planetary Polynesians Investigating the most effective method to dispatch humans to Alpha Centauri, a star system very close to ours, Moore says he drew from the stirring example of ancient Polynesian seafarers. Young couples would often set out on prolonged voyages across the Pacific in search of new places to live, with little more than paddles and prayers in their canoe flotillas. "They didn't know where they going, but with the trade winds blowing them in one direction, they were pretty sure they weren't coming back," he says. Similarly, he deduces, groups of young married couples would work best to cross the unknown voids of space, preferable without children at the onset so they could adapt to their new environment. What would be a good number to start with? An expedition of between 150 and 180 people could sustain itself at the same rate over many generations, Moore calculates. Plotting such trips might not be as outlandish as it seems. Some space scientists predict that one could embark before the end of this century, Moore said. As for those who might find such a perilous voyage off-putting, Moore offers: "We change jobs. We move to Chicago. We emigrate to a foreign country. The decision made by parents to join a space crew is not different in kind from decisions made by parents on Earth, only different in degree. "If educated properly, I think kids in space might one day say, 'Gosh, I'm sure glad I'm on this spaceship and not back on old yucky, dirty Earth." ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C1C808.B972B300 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="SandCastle Contractors, Inc. Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="SandCastle Contractors, Inc. Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Parker;L. FN:L. Clayton Parker (E-mail) ORG:SandCastle Contractors, Inc. TEL;WORK;VOICE:(850) 650-6588 TEL;HOME;VOICE:(850) 654-4773 TEL;CELL;VOICE:(850) 585-5502 TEL;CAR;VOICE:(850) 585-5504 TEL;WORK;FAX:(850) 650-6588 ADR;WORK:;;P.O. Box 1762;Destin;FL;32540-1762 LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:P.O. Box 1762=3D0D=3D0ADestin, FL = 32540-1762 EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:lparker@cacaphony.net REV:20011020T212607Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C1C808.B972B300-- From VM Sun Mar 10 16:36:58 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["7951" "Sunday" "10" "March" "2002" "08:07:00" "-0600" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "177" "starship-design: Unexpected Explosion Keeps Pakhomov \"Waiting\"" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 7951 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2AE7NP6002616 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 06:07:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2AE7NwE002615 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 06:07:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@traffic.gnt.net [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2AE7LP6002610 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 06:07:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadsword (user121.net241.fl.sprint-hsd.net [64.45.208.121]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id IAA20604 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:07:18 -0600 Message-ID: <002101c1c83c$da20a510$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0022_01C1C80A.8F863510" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design List \(E-mail\)" Subject: starship-design: Unexpected Explosion Keeps Pakhomov "Waiting" Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:07:00 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C1C80A.8F863510 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Unexpected Explosion Keeps Pakhomov "Waiting" Huntsville - Mar 6, 2002 Dr. Andrew Pakhomov isn't kidding when he says 50 millionths of a second can seem like "an eternity" in his lab at The University of Alabama in Huntsville (UAH). Most of the time, when he, Dr. Don Gregory and their graduate students conduct laser propulsion experiments, they measure laser pulses and the reactions that the lasers cause in from a millionth or a few billionths of a second. So 50 whole millionths of a second is, well, it's just an e-t-e-r-n-i-t-y. That's why Pakhomov and graduate student Shane Thompson were so surprised when lasers firing into a lead target produced a powerful explosion exactly 50 microseconds after the initial blast of ionized particles went away. Every time. "This is really a mysterious thing," says Pakhomov, an assistant physics professor at UAH. "Now we are writing a detective story." As part of a NASA-funded research project, UAH's Laser Propulsion Group is studying what may become a new type of rocket engine. They use powerful lasers firing pulses that last only tenths of nanoseconds -- tenths of billionths of a second -- at a wide range of target materials. When the laser hits, the target absorbs some of the laser's energy. Electrons fly away from energized atoms, turning them into ions which explode off the face of the target material. Voila. Now you have a rocket. And for every pound of fuel, the laser rockets might be 20 to 40 times more efficient than the most efficient chemical rockets, Pakhomov says. Part of the research involved testing different materials to see which gives the most thrust over the longest time. Lead was one of the materials to be tested. The experiment used two sensors a few inches apart to measure the speed at which ionized plasma flies away from the target face. "But there was a second wave form 50 microseconds after the first," said Thompson. "That's an eternity to us. And it was hitting both sensors at the same time, which meant it had to be light instead of plasma." "We decided it would not be a bad idea to look at the target 50 microseconds after the shot, so we got a camera," said Pakhomov. "At first we saw only darkness. It kept Shane here for a long night. "Then we saw it, a phase explosion. The lead goes through some kind of a phase transfer." It takes about one microsecond for the ionized lead plasma to leave the target surface -- at about 20 kilometers per second. Then, like clockwork, exactly 50 microseconds later the surface of the lead target explodes with a burst of particles which emit high energy ultraviolet light. "But what does the energy do for 50 microseconds?" Pakhomov asks. "Where does (the energy) go? It seems to disappear. We cannot see where it goes. What form does it take? It's hard to believe there was anything there." While they have verified that the explosion is real, the UAH scientists are just beginning to sort through the theories of why it happens and why it happens so precisely. Sorting through this unexpected discovery is a secondary concern. The main goal is testing different materials under different lengths and strengths of laser pulses to see what might give the most efficient result. Earlier experiments in laser propulsion used powerful laser pulses in the microsecond time range to heat air under a metal shroud to the point that it exploded like lightning, forming a plasma and a shock wave that pushed against the shroud. The system works, but it isn't very efficient and it requires that there be air inside the shroud. This could be a problem once a spacecraft leaves the atmosphere. Pakhomov and others realized early that firing the laser at the shroud or some other metallic target and peeling off, or ablating, the target one layer of ions at a time could be more efficient than firing it at the air. "Three billion watts of energy per square centimeter can create a breakdown of the atoms that are in the air," he said. "In metals, you need only a few millions of watts per square centimeter, a thousand times less energy. They already have free electrons, so you need much less energy to create an ablative breakdown. And that means you can deliver it over longer distances." Distance is important if the heavy laser system is on the ground firing at a target on a spacecraft that is moving away at high speed, which is what you want a spacecraft to do. Early tests of ablative systems, however, didn't yield the thrust that NASA needs. Those tests used lasers firing microsecond-length pulses. Pakhomov's proposed solution is laser pulse lengths measured in the tenths of nanoseconds -- or less. "It takes a couple of picoseconds (trillionths of a second) to form a plasma cloud," he said. "The problem is that when you have a long pulse, that plasma reflects the rest of the laser. You create this cloud of highly ionized material that absorbs your energy." At this point, Pakhomov and the UAH team think the most efficient system might be to fire a picosecond laser blast, then wait around twiddling their thumbs for a microsecond while the plasma gets out of the way, then fire another blast. Wait and repeat. "By using short pulses, when one pulse comes the plasma from the previous pulse is already gone," said Pakhomov. "It also appears that short pulses are much more efficient in the atmosphere. The pulse is so short it just has no time to react with the air." Thompson's newest experiment involves splitting a laser beam and putting half of the beam in a holding pattern for a few hundreds of picoseconds, maybe as much as a nanosecond. "We're probing the reflectance of the second pulse, looking at the kinetics and how it all develops so we can see when to add more energy," Pakhomov explained. "We want to know the best time periods to use for the length of the pulse and between pulses." Early results of their experiments are so encouraging that Pakhomov thinks ablative laser propulsion systems might be in service within a few years. The research at UAH is being supported by a $500,000, two-year NASA research grant. The first laser rocket systems might use powerful lasers mounted on the ground to give spacecraft a boost during launch, when a spacecraft has to fight through the thickest layer of the atmosphere and overcome inertia. A similar system aboard the space shuttle might help to boost satellites or probes out of low Earth orbit. A third potential use might employ ablative plates and small lasers mounted aboard a satellite or interplanetary probe as a weight-efficient replacement for the less efficient, caustic chemical rocket steering and pointing systems that are used today. "I believe this field will be developing," Pakhomov said. "I'm expecting to see some in-space applications soon. With development, I think we could look for orbiting laser systems. And on the moon, where there is no atmosphere to deflect the beam, it will be much easier to do such launchers." ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C1C80A.8F863510 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="SandCastle Contractors, Inc. Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="SandCastle Contractors, Inc. Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Parker;L. FN:L. Clayton Parker (E-mail) ORG:SandCastle Contractors, Inc. TEL;WORK;VOICE:(850) 650-6588 TEL;HOME;VOICE:(850) 654-4773 TEL;CELL;VOICE:(850) 585-5502 TEL;CAR;VOICE:(850) 585-5504 TEL;WORK;FAX:(850) 650-6588 ADR;WORK:;;P.O. Box 1762;Destin;FL;32540-1762 LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:P.O. Box 1762=3D0D=3D0ADestin, FL = 32540-1762 EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:lparker@cacaphony.net REV:20011020T212607Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C1C80A.8F863510-- From VM Sun Mar 10 16:36:58 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["15083" "Sunday" "10" "March" "2002" "08:12:26" "-0600" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "382" "starship-design: Propulsion Without Propellant Moving Ahead" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 15083 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2AEClP6002928 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 06:12:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2AEClXQ002927 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 06:12:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@traffic.gnt.net [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2AECkP6002921 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 06:12:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadsword (user121.net241.fl.sprint-hsd.net [64.45.208.121]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id IAA21813 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:12:42 -0600 Message-ID: <002701c1c83d$9bd9ff80$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0028_01C1C80B.513F8F80" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design List \(E-mail\)" Subject: starship-design: Propulsion Without Propellant Moving Ahead Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:12:26 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C1C80B.513F8F80 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0029_01C1C80B.513F8F80" ------=_NextPart_001_0029_01C1C80B.513F8F80 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_002_002A_01C1C80B.513F8F80" ------=_NextPart_002_002A_01C1C80B.513F8F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Propulsion Without Propellant Moving Ahead Huntsville - Feb 4, 2002 Propellant-free propulsion technology has taken a critical step toward reality, completing a series of systems tests at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Ala. The Propulsive Small Expendable Deployer system -- called ProSEDS -- is a tether-based propulsion experiment that draws power from the space environment around Earth, allowing the transfer of energy from the Earth to the spacecraft. Inexpensive and reusable, ProSEDS technology has the potential to turn orbiting, in-space tethers into "space tugboats" -- replacing heavy, costly, traditional chemical propulsion and enabling a variety of space-based missions, such as the fuel-free raising and lowering of satellite orbits. The initial flight of ProSEDS, scheduled for early summer, will mark the first time a tether system is used for propulsion. To be launched from Kennedy Space Center, Fla., ProSEDS will fly aboard an Air Force Delta II rocket and demonstrate an electrodynamic tether's ability to generate significant thrust. "We achieved an important milestone with our tests in November," said ProSEDS project manager Leslie Curtis of the Marshall Center's Space Transportation Directorate. "Using a vacuum chamber to represent the space environment, we successfully simulated the first 16 hours of the experiment's initial flight." In orbit, ProSEDS will deploy from a Delta-II second stage a 3.1-mile-long (5 kilometers), ultra-thin bare-wire tether connected with a 6.2-mile-long (10 kilometers) non-conducting tether. The interaction of the bare-wire tether with the Earth's ionosphere will produce thrust, thus lowering the altitude of the stage. Although the mission could last as long as three weeks, the first day is the most critical, because the primary objective of demonstrating thrust with the tether should be achieved during the experiment's first 24 hours. During the mission profile tests last November, engineers from the Marshall Center, along with their partners in academia and industry, tested the experiment's multiple systems as if the flight were actually taking place. "We took ProSEDS through every step of the mission's first 16 hours," Curtis said. "We operated its hardware, batteries, cables and software, activated and deactivated systems, and collected and transmitted data as we would during an actual flight." During the tests, all subsystems functioned as designed, including the hollow cathode plasma contactor, a critical component that enables the tether system to complete its electrical circuit. During the flight, the process of collecting energy will begin when the electromagnetic portion of the tether collects electrical current along the tether's length as it moves through the Earth's magnetic field. To keep the current flowing, the plasma contactor reconnects the electrons with the invisible, electrically charged plasma that surrounds the Earth, emitting the electrons back into space so it can complete its circuit. "We were pleased to see the plasma contactor perform well throughout the test, even under conditions outside its expected operating range," said Curtis. "It demonstrated the robustness of its design and the performance range of the ProSEDS operating system." The contactor was designed and built by the Electric Propulsion Laboratory in Monument, Colo. Additional testing of ProSEDS hardware leading to its launch will include thermal testing, tether deployment and final system verification with flight software. NASA's industry team for the ProSEDS experiment includes the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, Alpha Technologies of Huntsville, Ala., Electric Propulsion Laboratory of Monument Colo., the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory in Cambridge, Mass., Tether Applications Inc. of Chula Vista, Calif., and Triton Systems Inc. in Chelmsford, Mass. The ProSEDS experiment is managed by the Space Transportation Directorate at the Marshall Center. ------=_NextPart_002_002A_01C1C80B.513F8F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Propulsion Without Propellant = Moving=20 Ahead
 
 
Huntsville - Feb 4, 2002
Propellant-free propulsion technology has taken a = critical=20 step toward reality, completing a series of systems tests at NASA's = Marshall=20 Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Ala.

 

The Propulsive Small Expendable Deployer system -- called ProSEDS -- = is a=20 tether-based propulsion experiment that draws power from the space = environment=20 around Earth, allowing the transfer of energy from the Earth to the = spacecraft.=20

 

Inexpensive and reusable, ProSEDS technology has the potential to = turn=20 orbiting, in-space tethers into "space tugboats" -- replacing heavy, = costly,=20 traditional chemical propulsion and enabling a variety of space-based = missions,=20 such as the fuel-free raising and lowering of satellite orbits.=20

 

The initial flight of ProSEDS, scheduled for early summer, will mark = the=20 first time a tether system is used for propulsion. To be launched from = Kennedy=20 Space Center, Fla., ProSEDS will fly aboard an Air Force Delta II rocket = and=20 demonstrate an electrodynamic tether's ability to generate significant = thrust.=20

 

"We achieved an important milestone with our tests in November," said = ProSEDS=20 project manager Leslie Curtis of the Marshall Center's Space = Transportation=20 Directorate. "Using a vacuum chamber to represent the space environment, = we=20 successfully simulated the first 16 hours of the experiment's initial = flight."=20

 

In orbit, ProSEDS will deploy from a Delta-II second stage a = 3.1-mile-long (5=20 kilometers), ultra-thin bare-wire tether connected with a 6.2-mile-long = (10=20 kilometers) non-conducting tether. The interaction of the bare-wire = tether with=20 the Earth's ionosphere will produce thrust, thus lowering the altitude = of the=20 stage.=20

 

Although the mission could last as long as three weeks, the first day = is the=20 most critical, because the primary objective of demonstrating thrust = with the=20 tether should be achieved during the experiment's first 24 hours.=20

 

During the mission profile tests last November, engineers from the = Marshall=20 Center, along with their partners in academia and industry, tested the=20 experiment's multiple systems as if the flight were actually taking = place.=20

 

"We took ProSEDS through every step of the mission's first 16 hours," = Curtis=20 said. "We operated its hardware, batteries, cables and software, = activated and=20 deactivated systems, and collected and transmitted data as we would = during an=20 actual flight."=20

 

During the tests, all subsystems functioned as designed, including = the hollow=20 cathode plasma contactor, a critical component that enables the tether = system to=20 complete its electrical circuit.=20

 

During the flight, the process of collecting energy will begin when = the=20 electromagnetic portion of the tether collects electrical current along = the=20 tether's length as it moves through the Earth's magnetic field. To keep = the=20 current flowing, the plasma contactor reconnects the electrons with the=20 invisible, electrically charged plasma that surrounds the Earth, = emitting the=20 electrons back into space so it can complete its circuit.=20

 

"We were pleased to see the plasma contactor perform well throughout = the=20 test, even under conditions outside its expected operating range," said = Curtis.=20 "It demonstrated the robustness of its design and the performance range = of the=20 ProSEDS operating system." The contactor was designed and built by the = Electric=20 Propulsion Laboratory in Monument, Colo.=20

 

Additional testing of ProSEDS hardware leading to its launch will = include=20 thermal testing, tether deployment and final system verification with = flight=20 software.=20

 

NASA's industry team for the ProSEDS experiment includes the = University of=20 Michigan in Ann Arbor, Alpha Technologies of Huntsville, Ala., Electric=20 Propulsion Laboratory of Monument Colo., the Smithsonian Astrophysical=20 Observatory in Cambridge, Mass., Tether Applications Inc. of Chula = Vista,=20 Calif., and Triton Systems Inc. in Chelmsford, Mass.=20

 

The ProSEDS experiment is managed by the Space Transportation = Directorate at=20 the Marshall Center.
 
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Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="SandCastle Contractors, Inc. Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Parker;L. FN:L. Clayton Parker (E-mail) ORG:SandCastle Contractors, Inc. TEL;WORK;VOICE:(850) 650-6588 TEL;HOME;VOICE:(850) 654-4773 TEL;CELL;VOICE:(850) 585-5502 TEL;CAR;VOICE:(850) 585-5504 TEL;WORK;FAX:(850) 650-6588 ADR;WORK:;;P.O. Box 1762;Destin;FL;32540-1762 LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:P.O. Box 1762=3D0D=3D0ADestin, FL = 32540-1762 EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:lparker@cacaphony.net REV:20011020T212607Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C1C80B.513F8F80-- From VM Sun Mar 10 16:36:58 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6700" "Sunday" "10" "March" "2002" "08:20:37" "-0600" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "146" "starship-design: Ions In The Sky" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 6700 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2AEKxP6003952 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 06:20:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2AEKxah003951 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 06:20:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@traffic.gnt.net [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2AEKvP6003944 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 06:20:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadsword (user121.net241.fl.sprint-hsd.net [64.45.208.121]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id IAA23343 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:20:54 -0600 Message-ID: <003001c1c83e$c11b3d80$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0031_01C1C80C.7680CD80" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design List \(E-mail\)" Subject: starship-design: Ions In The Sky Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:20:37 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C1C80C.7680CD80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ions In The Sky by Marcia Goodrich Houghton - Jan 14, 2001 It may sound like Isaac Asimov made it up, but on at least one level, there's nothing fancy about ion space propulsion. Many satellites fly in a steady, 24-hour orbit, so they essentially hang in one spot above the Earth. After awhile in space, however, they can get wobbly and then drift uselessly out of their intended orbit along with their gazillion dollars worth of electronics. To prevent this expensive debacle, ion propulsion engines mounted on the satellites send out streams of ions almost daily to stabilize the spacecraft, a process known as station keeping. "There's nothing special about ions," says Assistant Professor Brad King (ME-EM). "You could throw toasters off the back and it would do the same thing." It would certainly be cheaper to use toasters, if that were the only issue. Ion-propulsion engines are typically fueled with xenon, one of the so-called noble gases on the periodic table. "I think God has a sense of humor," King said. "The gas with the best performance also happens to be the most expensive that you can buy." The nice thing about ions, however, is that, unlike toasters, they throw themselves. "We use ions because they are positively charged, and the spacecraft is given a positive charge, so they repel each other," King said. "The ions come screaming out the back at 20 km per second." That's pushing 45,000 mph. Pound for pound, that's a lot of thrust, which is why the aerospace industry is becoming so fond of the ion-propulsion engines known as Hall-effect thrusters. Satellites have been around a lot longer than Hall thrusters, and much of King's work has focused on integrating these engines into existing satellite designs. There's plenty of capital available to do that. Getting mass into orbit is astonishingly expensive, and fuel for station keeping can eat up to 60 percent of a satellite's weight. "If we can cut the amount of fuel in half for a given satellite, we can save $100 million by using a smaller launch vehicle to put it in orbit," King said. For that kind of money, companies will gladly undertake a high-end retrofit on their traditional satellites. Now, however, King is turning his attention to bigger and better ion-propulsion engines. The typical 1-kilowatt ion engine developed in the 1990s generates thrust equal to the weight of a couple paperclips, which is quite adequate for station keeping. (Ion thrusters are also good for long trips; one has been powering NASA's Deep Space 1 probe on its drive to the outer planets.) To expand their capabilities, however, much more powerful engines are needed. "Now we're working on the next generation of thrusters," King said. In the next five to 10 years, researchers expect to design thrusters that work at over 30 kilowatts. "Those would be powerful enough to significantly raise the orbit of a satellite, rather than just keep it in place," he said, something that until now only chemical propellants have had the power to do. "A 30-kilowatt thruster would cut chemical rockets out of the loop for most satellite maneuvers," King said, drastically reducing the cost of launching a satellite. As efficient as they are, Hall thrusters have an unfortunate side effect. Xenon ions traveling at 20 km per second can wreak havoc on a molecular scale, which brings us to another aspect of King's research. Once they're in orbit, satellites get most of their power from a solar array, which converts sunlight to electricity. As the ions fly out, they disperse and can slam into the arrays, blowing away molecules from the lens that collects the sunlight. Over time, the effect is not unlike sandblasting. "That ruins the efficiency of the solar array," King said. To solve the problem, King and graduate student Alex Kieckhafer are investigating "beam divergence": designing the Hall thruster and satellite to keep the ions from spraying into the spacecraft. Working on ion propulsion systems requires an unusual grade of equipment. Trying to make outer space in the U.P. can be difficult," King notes as he ushers a visitor into his lab. The first thing you need is a place to hold your vacuum, in this case, a cylindrical stainless steel tank four meters long and two meters wide with walls three-quarters of an inch thick. "I got it at an aerospace surplus place in California," King said. "They didn't know what it was, so they sold it cheap." Its two massive doors were built closer to home, at Calumet Machine. To make outer space in the basement of the ME-EM building, a powerful pump sucks most of the air out of the tank. Then liquid helium circulates through a special carbon pad on its inside; virtually all of the remaining air freezes onto the pad. The interior is then nearly as air-free as outer space, making it a good place to test ion propulsion engines. The pumps must also be able to remove the ejected xenon propellant, which they can do at a rate of 60,000 liters per second. Clearly, Hall-effect thrusters are not the easiest type of engine to study. King doesn't seem to mind. "They're fun," he says. "Kind of like Buck Rogers, but real. And you have an audience -- you don't have to sit in the basement, write papers and stick them in file cabinets." For his next project, he envisions another Star Trekkian device that would hold a group of information-gathering satellites in formation. If each carried a small telescopic lens, they could function as a many-faceted insect eye, providing better images less expensively than a single, huge, Hubble-style lens. But to work, they'd have to maintain a very tight flight pattern. What would that take? King smiles. "I'm trying to build a realistic tractor beam." ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C1C80C.7680CD80 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="SandCastle Contractors, Inc. Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="SandCastle Contractors, Inc. Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Parker;L. FN:L. Clayton Parker (E-mail) ORG:SandCastle Contractors, Inc. TEL;WORK;VOICE:(850) 650-6588 TEL;HOME;VOICE:(850) 654-4773 TEL;CELL;VOICE:(850) 585-5502 TEL;CAR;VOICE:(850) 585-5504 TEL;WORK;FAX:(850) 650-6588 ADR;WORK:;;P.O. Box 1762;Destin;FL;32540-1762 LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:P.O. Box 1762=3D0D=3D0ADestin, FL = 32540-1762 EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:lparker@cacaphony.net REV:20011020T212607Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C1C80C.7680CD80-- From VM Sun Mar 10 16:36:58 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["14722" "Sunday" "10" "March" "2002" "08:37:25" "-0600" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "296" "starship-design: FW: Transforming Spacecraft Economics Via On Orbit Assembly" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 14722 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2AEblP6005199 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 06:37:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2AEbl3A005198 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 06:37:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@traffic.gnt.net [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2AEbjP6005193 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 06:37:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadsword (user121.net241.fl.sprint-hsd.net [64.45.208.121]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id IAA26627 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:37:42 -0600 Message-ID: <003f01c1c841$197bd5a0$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0040_01C1C80E.CEE165A0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design List \(E-mail\)" Subject: starship-design: FW: Transforming Spacecraft Economics Via On Orbit Assembly Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:37:25 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C1C80E.CEE165A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Transforming Spacecraft Economics Via On Orbit Assembly by Dennis Wingo Los Angeles - Jan 30, 2002 Since the dawn of the space age, the Defense Department (DoD), NASA, commercial aerospace companies, and entrepreneurial efforts have spent vast sums in continuing efforts to lower the cost of launch vehicles. Traditionally, DoD and NASA have also sponsored the introduction of new spacecraft architectures, technologies, and systems. The many advances in the fields of Earth orbiting satellites and interplanetary spacecraft have revolutionized our lives. However, today an impasse is approaching in terms of the cost, schedule and utility of spacecraft. Per unit spacecraft costs are rising dramatically for DoD, NASA, and other government customers. Congress cancelled the Discoverer II program due to concern over rapidly rising costs. Extremely important strategic defense programs such as SBIRS Low and SBIRS High are in deep trouble due to cost spiral. Commercial satellite costs are also rising as well as we cram more and more capability and complexity on launch vehicles and in their limited payload sections. Multiple failures of multi-hundred million dollar comsats on orbit and the spiraling per unit cost has driven several communications enterprises out of business in the last few years. The remaining commercial space companies cannot afford, nor will their stakeholders allow them to take large risks for the benefits that revolutionary approaches afford. Due to these issues and others commercial space is no longer growing as it has for decades and is actually in decline. This is where the government, seeing the long term benefit to the nation, can invest in dramatically improved technologies and systems that can break this impasse. This method is the on orbit assembly of spacecraft from components and subsystems carried into space in energy absorbing packaging. The dynamic vibrations associated with the launch environment are mitigated by the enclosure of spacecraft subsystem elements in energy absorbing packaging just as fragile cargo on earth are packaged before air or ground shipment to preclude damage from excessive shock and vibration. These subsystem elements are then launched on the Space Shuttle or any vehicle that can dock at the International Space Station (ISS). These subsystem elements are assembled into a full spacecraft. The resulting spacecraft are then tested and deployed from ISS either upward or downward depending on the presence of a propulsion system on board. On orbit assembly can fundamentally change the economics of spacecraft by changing or eliminating constraints associated with their design, construction, and test. SkyCorp intends to prove the utility and cost effectiveness of this approach by the only method that is truly convincing: building and launching a test spacecraft. Background Rational In thirty years we will no longer build spacecraft on the Earth There are two fundamental constraints that rule the world of a spacecraft designer and drive the total cost. 1. Dynamic and Acoustical Acceleration Environment. Acceleration stresses induced from the launch of a rocket are several times the force of gravity. What's more, the dynamic vibrations of the launch vehicle structure are considerably more severe than the acceleration rate. This is due to the low frequencies associated with large volumes of fuel flowing into the engines and other mechanical vibrations. These vibrations mechanically couple into the spacecraft bolted to the top at resonant frequencies below fifty hertz. A fundamental design requirement for spacecraft engineers is to build structures and appendages stiff enough so that these frequencies are not amplified by the spacecraft structure to damage or destroy it. Also, the acoustical environment caused by the payload shroud passing through the atmosphere at high velocities imparts a spectrum of medium frequency white noise. These vibrations can set up mechanical resonances with appendages such as antennas, solar arrays, and sensors. These resonance frequencies also affect internal components such as electronic circuit boards and other internal mechanical components. These acoustical resonances provide a second related design constraint upon spacecraft designers. Spacecraft designers have dealt with the vibration issue by building stiff structures with hard attach points for appendages. These stiff structures are based upon fundamental geometrical constructs such as the cube and cylinder. Spacecraft appendages are stiffened by securing them with explosive bolts that are commanded to blow after the spacecraft is released from the launch vehicle in orbit. This is an expensive process for an environment that a spacecraft sees for less than fifteen minutes. 2. Geometrical Constraints Driven by Fairing Dimensions The cylindrical geometry of the inside of a launch vehicle payload shroud severely constrains design options for the spacecraft designer. This is especially true for large and high powered satellites such as military reconnaissance or geosynchronous comsats. Indeed the primary technical constraint on the future growth of these satellites is the inability to remove heat from the geometrically constrained spacecraft bus. This is due to the limited surface area available from the fundamental geometrical constructs used. All payload shrouds are cylindrical due to the aerodynamic shape that is required for the launch vehicle to efficiently penetrate the atmosphere. Therefore the size of spacecraft is a direct function of the size of the fairing. A systems analysis performed by SkyCorp has determined that an average of 50% of the cost of a spacecraft was associated with the launch environment and the geometrical constraints of the fairing that are unnecessary for space operation The SkyCorp SkySat Methodology As a Shuttle, ELV, and sounding rocket payload developer the author has been exposed to almost every conceivable launch environment. This experience showed that the design of satellites is primarily driven by the launch environment and only secondarily by the space environment. Therefore, eliminating dynamic and acoustic loads will have large payoffs in terms of the design, manufacture, test and deployment of spacecraft. Additionally, if the designer is freed from the geometric constraints of the payload fairing, new capabilities and weight efficient architectures can be implemented. In considering the above in designing spacecraft the author has developed a new methodology that can considerably reduce the cost, increase the capabilities, and decrease the development time for spacecraft. The term developed for it is the SkySat on orbit assembly method. In the SkySat method the designer takes each significant subsystem of a spacecraft and physically breaks it down into components that can be stored in energy absorbing material encased in a container. These sub assemblies are carried to orbit on the Shuttle or expendable launcher. The cargo must be taken to ISS, another manned space facility or the Shuttle itself to be assembled, tested, and deployed. Human-Supervised Deployment Human-supervised deployment leads to large material gains in total system reliability. Booms, antennas and solar arrays will be extended while a crew person is standing by. The crew person will have tools ready to fix deployment glitches. Considerable time and money can now be saved in the design/build/test process and mission success no longer rests on the perfect functioning of a mechanical latch or a pyrotechnic release system. The SkySat Methodology and NASA The advent of ISS and its continuous occupation has established a "beachhead in the sky" that did not exist before for the U.S. space program or for commercial companies wishing to take advantage of such a facility. ISS was originally supposed to support a hanger whereby very large space structures could be built. With the program changes, this feature went away. It is our intention to reopen that door by proving the viability and cost effectivenes s of our approach. It is the intention of SkyCorp to garner enough business building spacecraft on orbit to be able to justify and fund the construction of a commercial hanger as a module for ISS. The "SuperSat" Demonstrator Our candidate spacecraft for a demonstration of on orbit assembly builds upon previous work by SkyCorp and LunaCorp for a spacecraft called SuperSat. Since early 1999 over $300k has been spent developing the on orbit assembly technology in general and $150k specifically on the Lunar mission. The specific utility of this spacecraft is to demonstrate and validate conclusively the cost effectiveness of the on orbit assembly method. Spacecraft Specifications The SuperSat spacecraft weighs 55% of the only comparable spacecraft, NASA's Deep Space 1. The spacecraft has over 200% of the power and 50% more on board propulsion capability. Below in Table 1 are the general specifications of the SuperSat spacecraft. Sub System Specified Performance Parameter Propulsion 270 millinewton 2050 Isp Stationary Plasma Thruster Fuel 18 km/sec total impulse Xenon 83 Kg Weight 225 kilograms wet weight Lightweight Structure Communications 25 megabits/sec Phased Array spot Data Handling Multiprocessor Embedded Power PC Linux Based Data Storage 77 Gigabytes Flash Disk Navigation Autonav to Lunar Orbit SkyCorp/SAIC Custom Attitude Control Pulse Plasma/Momentum General Dynamics/ Dynacon Imaging System HDTV Quality Twin CCD megapixel. A Fundamental Transformation of Costs vs. Capabilities The SkySat methodology basically gives spacecraft builders the cost advantages of a small-sat approach with the capabilities of much larger systems. Small spacecraft typically do not have large antennas, solar arrays, or large area sensors. The SkySat method is suited to the development of the large apertures and substantial electrical power of deployable elements in a cost effective manner. Benefits Examples of the new abilities include: Low-cost high-capability radar and communications spacecraft can be proliferated, ending coverage gaps. Shortened development cycles support rapid technology deployment. A dramatic reduction in the time between the identification of need to flight. Production spacecraft could be stockpiled on orbit for rapid deployment. A LEO constellation of large-aperture high-power communications satellites can support worldwide broadband data links to mobile ground units and remotely piloted vehicles. It is the intention of SkyCorp to become a major player in the development of low cost high capability spacecraft for the defense and commercial markets. Commercial and NASA Benefits The SkySat methodology can bring many benefits to NASA and commercial customers to reduce the cost and improve the reliability of spacecraft. Some examples include: NASA has recently had to cancel a contract to build three communications relays in Mars orbit. This was due to significant cost growth. Our preliminary estimate is that we could build all three as simple variants of the SuperSat, assemble and launch for a lower cost than the original Mars microsats while dramatically improving their overall performance and data rate. Several different lightweight spacecraft for inner and mid solar system studies could be built using the methodology at considerable savings to the government. On orbit assembled spacecraft could also allow the deployment of low cost LEO constellations. The Internet in the sky idea of Teledesic faltered due to the high cost of satellites built in the traditional way. The cost effectiveness of our method multiplies with a linear scaling of the number of satellites deployed Project Risk Our preliminary work over the past three years has given us at least a 80% confidence in the cost of the mission and as much of the remaining risk as is possible to retire will be done during a study potentially funded by DARPA and our commercial partners. The technological risk is fairly low in that even though we are using a lot of new technology and software, much of this has been proven on Deep Space 1, and the propulsion system that we are using is human safe and has had several times more testing than our mission requires. Conclusion We have an opportunity to launch the spacecraft on the Space Shuttle in 2003 to ISS. This is an ambitious approach but we feel that this is an opportunity to really show that we can build a spacecraft of this complexity on an accelerated schedule. This spacecraft is the prototype of an entire family of high capability spacecraft with benefits that serve a broad range of customer needs. It is our intention to license the technology to proliferate it through our aerospace industrial base. We do intend to move forward to develop our own module for ISS a where this technology can be fully brought into its own. It is our thought that sans propulsion, batteries, and solar arrays that spacecraft should not cost any more than high performance computers and telecommunications systems built on Earth. This will allow the vast proliferation of spacecraft on orbit and will finally allow the implementation of a global wireless Internet as well as their NASA and military utility. With the cost reductions that we anticipate with the full adoption of our methods we feel that in thirty years we truly will not build spacecraft on the Earth. Dennis Wingo is a principal with SkyCorp Inc and can be contacted via media@skycorpinc.com ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C1C80E.CEE165A0 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="SandCastle Contractors, Inc. Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="SandCastle Contractors, Inc. Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Parker;L. FN:L. Clayton Parker (E-mail) ORG:SandCastle Contractors, Inc. TEL;WORK;VOICE:(850) 650-6588 TEL;HOME;VOICE:(850) 654-4773 TEL;CELL;VOICE:(850) 585-5502 TEL;CAR;VOICE:(850) 585-5504 TEL;WORK;FAX:(850) 650-6588 ADR;WORK:;;P.O. Box 1762;Destin;FL;32540-1762 LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:P.O. Box 1762=3D0D=3D0ADestin, FL = 32540-1762 EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:lparker@cacaphony.net REV:20011020T212607Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C1C80E.CEE165A0-- From VM Mon Mar 11 16:25:33 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["299" "Monday" "11" "March" "2002" "17:40:45" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "30" "Re: starship-design: more wallpaper" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 299 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2BMf5P6002693 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:41:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2BMf58M002687 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:41:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-d08.mx.aol.com (imo-d08.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.40]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2BMf0P6002601 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:41:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id z.9f.23d8a0db (2171) for ; Mon, 11 Mar 2002 17:40:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <9f.23d8a0db.29be8c6d@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: more wallpaper Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 17:40:45 EST In a message dated 3/11/02 8:25:00 AM, KStarks.Apollo@SIKORSKY.COM writes: > > > > > > >In a message dated 3/8/02 7:39:50 PM, clmanges@yahoo.com writes: > > > >>wallpaper! > >> > >>! WOW ! > >> > >>http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap020308.html > >> > >>enjoy, and keep looking up > >> > >>Curtis From VM Sun Mar 17 14:22:31 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["11893" "Sunday" "17" "March" "2002" "14:18:56" "-0600" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "276" "starship-design: Pathfinder/Explorer Survey Requirements" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 11893 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2HKJM3Q005604 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2002 12:19:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2HKJMdr005596 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 2002 12:19:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@traffic.gnt.net [204.49.53.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2HKJK3Q005438 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2002 12:19:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadsword (user121.net241.fl.sprint-hsd.net [64.45.208.121]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id OAA16982 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2002 14:19:15 -0600 Message-ID: <001c01c1cdf0$f7bf9ea0$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01C1CDBE.AD279FA0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design List \(E-mail\)" Subject: starship-design: Pathfinder/Explorer Survey Requirements Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 14:18:56 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C1CDBE.AD279FA0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001E_01C1CDBE.AD279FA0" ------=_NextPart_001_001E_01C1CDBE.AD279FA0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_002_001F_01C1CDBE.AD279FA0" ------=_NextPart_002_001F_01C1CDBE.AD279FA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to open by suggesting you read all or most of the following links: "Twin Probes to Map Earth's Gravity" http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/03/17/russia.space/index.html "A World of Ice Beneath the Rust" http://www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-odyssey-02e.html "Mars Global Surveyor Begins Second Year of Extended Mission" http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/1yearExtend/index.html These are just a few recent examples of the satellite hardware that is required to gather basic information on a planet's structure. They each cost millions of dollars, it takes between 6 and twenty-four just to explore one planet thoroughly, and we must include sufficient of each type with the exploratory vehicle to survey the expected number of planets in the new system. We must also be able to deploy systemic survey craft on the way into the system. These craft must be capable of detailed surveys of the star's magnetosphere, solar wind, gravity field, planetary orbits, asteroids, comets, Oort cloud object, etc. In other words, irregardless of the mass required for the humans on the survey vessel, there must be allowance made for a significant payload of remote probes. I recently posted a link to a story about an "on orbit" assembly program that was focusing upon delivering smaller, more robust modules to orbit for assembly there, thereby increasing the functionality and reducing the cost of fielding a modern high capability satellite. This is probably one of the saner things I have heard about and it has obvious direct applicability to extrasolar survey missions. For those of you who are/were familiar with Kelly's original numbers for the Explorer class and my limited proposal for the Pathfinder class, perhaps it is time to revisit them and refine them a little. Lee ------=_NextPart_002_001F_01C1CDBE.AD279FA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I would like = to open by=20 suggesting you read all or most of the following = links:
 
"Twin Probes = to Map=20 Earth's Gravity"
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/03/17/russia.space/index.html
 
"A World of = Ice Beneath=20 the Rust"
http://www.= spacedaily.com/news/mars-odyssey-02e.html
 
"Mars Global = Surveyor=20 Begins Second Year of Extended Mission"
http:= //www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/1yearExtend/index.html
 
These are just = a few=20 recent examples of the satellite hardware that is required to gather = basic=20 information on a planet's structure. They each cost millions of dollars, = it=20 takes between 6 and twenty-four just to explore one planet thoroughly, = and we=20 must include sufficient of each type with the exploratory vehicle to = survey the=20 expected number of planets in the new system.
 
We must also = be able to=20 deploy systemic survey craft on the way into the system. These craft = must be=20 capable of detailed surveys of the star's magnetosphere, solar wind, = gravity=20 field, planetary orbits, asteroids, comets, Oort cloud object,=20 etc.
 
In other = words,=20 irregardless of the mass required for the humans on the survey vessel, = there=20 must be allowance made for a significant payload of remote probes.=20
 
I recently = posted a link=20 to a story about an "on orbit" assembly program that was focusing upon=20 delivering smaller, more robust modules to orbit for assembly there, = thereby=20 increasing the functionality and reducing the cost of fielding a modern = high=20 capability satellite. This is probably one of the saner things I = have heard=20 about and it has obvious direct applicability to extrasolar survey=20 missions.
 
For those of = you who=20 are/were familiar with Kelly's original numbers for the Explorer class = and my=20 limited proposal for the Pathfinder class, perhaps it is time to revisit = them=20 and refine them a little.
 
Lee
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Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="SandCastle Contractors, Inc. Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Parker;L. FN:L. Clayton Parker (E-mail) ORG:SandCastle Contractors, Inc. TEL;WORK;VOICE:(850) 650-6588 TEL;HOME;VOICE:(850) 654-4773 TEL;CELL;VOICE:(850) 585-5502 TEL;CAR;VOICE:(850) 585-5504 TEL;WORK;FAX:(850) 650-6588 ADR;WORK:;;P.O. Box 1762;Destin;FL;32540-1762 LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:P.O. Box 1762=3D0D=3D0ADestin, FL = 32540-1762 EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:lparker@cacaphony.net REV:20011020T212607Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C1CDBE.AD279FA0-- From VM Tue Mar 19 15:43:38 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["8462" "Tuesday" "19" "March" "2002" "18:36:45" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "338" "starship-design: Fwd: FW: 100 years ago......" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 8462 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2JNbHox016374 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2002 15:37:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2JNbH3D016362 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 2002 15:37:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-r02.mx.aol.com (imo-r02.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.98]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2JNbDox016318 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2002 15:37:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id i.153.ab7f5ea (4556); Tue, 19 Mar 2002 18:36:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <153.ab7f5ea.29c9258d@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_153.ab7f5ea.29c9258d_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: JohnFrance@aol.com, dtaylor611@comcast.net, moschleg@erols.com, SFnoirSD@aol.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, alford@netcom.com, rddesign@rddesigns.com, Sabrina@starscrossing.com, RICKJ@btio.com, jcmaxted@rockwellcollins.com, Michnavi@aol.com, millahnna@yahoo.com, RamsesthegoD@excite.com, edrataj@nethere.com, alwermter@netzero.net Subject: starship-design: Fwd: FW: 100 years ago...... Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 18:36:45 EST --part1_153.ab7f5ea.29c9258d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/19/02 8:08:36 AM, KStarks.Apollo@SIKORSKY.COM writes: > > > > > > > > > > Kind of makes you wonder what this century will bring doesn't it? > > > > No shit!! Especially when IBM has built a micro transporter (yes like >Star > > Trek) and pharmacoms doing genetic engineering are talking about serious > > marketable eternal youth treatments in the Wall Street Journal!! > > > >Kelly > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: ghcotto5@rockwellcollins.com [mailto:ghcotto5@rockwellcollins.com] > > > >Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 8:10 AM > >To: uss-blakely@uss-blakely.org > >Subject: 100 years ago...... > > > > > > The year is 1902, one hundred years ago ... what a difference a century > > makes. > > > > The average life expectancy in the US was forty-seven. > > > > Only 14 Percent of the homes in the US had a bathtub. > > > > Only 8 percent of the homes had a telephone. A three-minute call from > > Denver to New York City cost eleven dollars. > > > > There were only 8,000 cars in the US and only 144 miles of paved roads. > > > > The maximum speed limit in most cities was 10 mph. > > > > Alabama, Mississippi, Iowa, and Tennessee were each more heavily > > populated than California. With a mere 1.4 million residents, California > > was only the 21st most populous state in the Union. > > > > The tallest structure in the world was the Eiffel Tower. > > > > The average wage in the US was 22 cents an hour. > > > > The average US worker made between $200 and $400 per year. > > > > A competent accountant could expect to earn $2000 per year, a dentist > > $2,500 per year, a veterinarian between $1,500 and $4,000 per year, and >a > > mechanical engineer about $5,000 per year. > > > > More than 95 percent of all births in the US took place at home. > > > > Ninety percent of all US physicians had no college education. Instead, > > they attended medical schools, many of which were condemned in the press > > and > > by the government as "substandard." > > > > Sugar cost four cents a pound. Eggs were fourteen cents a dozen. Coffee > > cost fifteen cents a pound. > > > > Most women only washed their hair once a month and used borax or egg > > yolks for shampoo. > > > > Canada passed a law prohibiting poor people from entering the country >for > > any reason. > > > > The five leading causes of death in the US were: > > 1. Pneumonia and influenza > > 2. Tuberculosis > > 3. Diarrhea > > 4. Heart disease > > 5. Stroke > > > > The American flag had 45 stars. Arizona, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Hawaii >and > > Alaska hadn't been admitted to the Union yet. > > > > The population of Las Vegas, Nevada was 30. > > > > Crossword puzzles, canned beer, and iced tea hadn't been invented. > > > > There were no Mother's Day or Father's Day. > > > > One in ten US adults couldn't read or write. Only 6 percent of all > > Americans had graduated from high school. > > > > Marijuana, heroin, and morphine were all available over the counter at > > corner drugstores. According to one pharmacist, "Heroin clears the > > complexion, gives buoyancy to the mind, regulates the stomach and the > > bowels, and is, in fact, a perfect guardian of health." > > > > Eighteen percent of households in the US had at least one full-time > > servant or domestic. > > > > There were only about 230 reported murders in the entire US. > > > > Kind of makes you wonder what this century will bring doesn't it? > > --part1_153.ab7f5ea.29c9258d_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-za02.mx.aol.com (rly-za02.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.98]) by air-za04.mail.aol.com (v83.45) with ESMTP id MAILINZA41-0319090835; Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:08:35 -0500 Received: from mail2.utc.com (mail.utc.com [192.249.46.67]) by rly-za02.mx.aol.com (v83.45) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINZA28-0319090808; Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:08:08 -0500 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail2.utc.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) id g2JE7lt04100; Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:07:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown(159.82.80.244) by mail2.utc.com via smap (V5.5) id xma003679; Tue, 19 Mar 02 09:07:29 -0500 Received: from saexch-bh2-stf.sikorsky.com (saexch-bh2-stf.sikorsky.com [140.76.216.22]) by uusnwa08.utc.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id g2JE7ap18837; Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:07:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by saexch-bh2-stf.sikorsky.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:07:36 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Starks, Kelly Apollo" To: "Biggs, Apriel" , "'Carol'" , "Gilson, Carolyn BUTLER" , "'Karen Saxton'" , "'Kathleen Casciola'" , "'Kellys Home'" , "Love, Philip B" , "'Rhonda Elpers'" Subject: FW: 100 years ago...... Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:07:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Kind of makes you wonder what this century will bring doesn't it? No shit!! Especially when IBM has built a micro transporter (yes like Star Trek) and pharmacoms doing genetic engineering are talking about serious marketable eternal youth treatments in the Wall Street Journal!! Kelly -----Original Message----- From: ghcotto5@rockwellcollins.com [mailto:ghcotto5@rockwellcollins.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 8:10 AM To: uss-blakely@uss-blakely.org Subject: 100 years ago...... The year is 1902, one hundred years ago ... what a difference a century makes. The average life expectancy in the US was forty-seven. Only 14 Percent of the homes in the US had a bathtub. Only 8 percent of the homes had a telephone. A three-minute call from Denver to New York City cost eleven dollars. There were only 8,000 cars in the US and only 144 miles of paved roads. The maximum speed limit in most cities was 10 mph. Alabama, Mississippi, Iowa, and Tennessee were each more heavily populated than California. With a mere 1.4 million residents, California was only the 21st most populous state in the Union. The tallest structure in the world was the Eiffel Tower. The average wage in the US was 22 cents an hour. The average US worker made between $200 and $400 per year. A competent accountant could expect to earn $2000 per year, a dentist $2,500 per year, a veterinarian between $1,500 and $4,000 per year, and a mechanical engineer about $5,000 per year. More than 95 percent of all births in the US took place at home. Ninety percent of all US physicians had no college education. Instead, they attended medical schools, many of which were condemned in the press and by the government as "substandard." Sugar cost four cents a pound. Eggs were fourteen cents a dozen. Coffee cost fifteen cents a pound. Most women only washed their hair once a month and used borax or egg yolks for shampoo. Canada passed a law prohibiting poor people from entering the country for any reason. The five leading causes of death in the US were: 1. Pneumonia and influenza 2. Tuberculosis 3. Diarrhea 4. Heart disease 5. Stroke The American flag had 45 stars. Arizona, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Hawaii and Alaska hadn't been admitted to the Union yet. The population of Las Vegas, Nevada was 30. Crossword puzzles, canned beer, and iced tea hadn't been invented. There were no Mother's Day or Father's Day. One in ten US adults couldn't read or write. Only 6 percent of all Americans had graduated from high school. Marijuana, heroin, and morphine were all available over the counter at corner drugstores. According to one pharmacist, "Heroin clears the complexion, gives buoyancy to the mind, regulates the stomach and the bowels, and is, in fact, a perfect guardian of health." Eighteen percent of households in the US had at least one full-time servant or domestic. There were only about 230 reported murders in the entire US. Kind of makes you wonder what this century will bring doesn't it? --part1_153.ab7f5ea.29c9258d_boundary-- From VM Tue Mar 19 16:36:54 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["540" "Tuesday" "19" "March" "2002" "16:35:16" "-0800" "Curtis Manges" "clmanges@yahoo.com" nil "28" "Fwd: starship-design: Fwd: FW: 100 years ago......" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 540 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2K0aeox011917 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2002 16:36:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2K0adfd011916 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 2002 16:36:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13602.mail.yahoo.com ([216.136.175.113]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g2K0abox011576 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2002 16:36:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20020320003516.8244.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.148.24.157] by web13602.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 19 Mar 2002 16:35:16 PST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Curtis Manges From: Curtis Manges Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Fwd: starship-design: Fwd: FW: 100 years ago...... Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 16:35:16 -0800 (PST) --- KellySt@aol.com wrote: > IBM has built a micro transporter (yes > like > >Star > > > > Trek) and pharmacoms doing genetic engineering are talking about > serious > > > > marketable eternal youth treatments in the Wall Street Journal!! > >Kelly Kelly, Please provide the references about these two items; I'd really like to know more. Thanks, Curtis ===== get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ From VM Wed Mar 20 22:59:35 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["568" "Wednesday" "20" "March" "2002" "23:06:34" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "44" "RE: starship-design: Fwd: FW: 100 years ago......" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 568 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2L46iox029757 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 20:06:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2L46if2029756 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 20:06:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-r03.mx.aol.com (imo-r03.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.99]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2L46gox029739 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 20:06:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id z.43.8736e5c (25100); Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:06:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <43.8736e5c.29cab64a@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: clmanges@yahoo.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: starship-design: Fwd: FW: 100 years ago...... Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:06:34 EST As to the transporter experiment http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/ The other was in a article in the WallStreet Journal about a year and a half ago. >--- KellySt@aol.com wrote: >> >IBM has built a micro transporter (yes >> like >> >Star >> > >> > Trek) and pharmacoms doing genetic engineering are talking about >> serious >> > >> > marketable eternal youth treatments in the Wall Street Journal!! >> >Kelly > >Kelly, > >Please provide the references about these two items; I'd really like >to know more. > >Thanks, >Curtis From VM Wed Mar 20 22:59:35 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["434" "Wednesday" "20" "March" "2002" "21:07:01" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "10" "RE: starship-design: Fwd: FW: 100 years ago......" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 434 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2L58Iox012955 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 21:08:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2L58ITh012954 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 21:08:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2L58Hox012948 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 21:08:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (cisco-ts5-line69.uoregon.edu [128.223.208.79]) by clavin.efn.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2L58F413477 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 21:08:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g2L572R05903; Wed, 20 Mar 2002 21:07:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15513.27253.171091.317339@localhost.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <43.8736e5c.29cab64a@aol.com> References: <43.8736e5c.29cab64a@aol.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.03 under 21.4 (patch 6) "Common Lisp" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: starship-design: Fwd: FW: 100 years ago...... Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 21:07:01 -0800 KellySt@aol.com writes: > As to the transporter experiment > > http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/ "Quantum teleportation" means "we can take an initially unknown and uncontrollable quantum state and duplicate it in two physically separated locations, such that when we measure them they are observed to be identical and to collapse 'simultaneously'". This is a far cry from making a Star Trek "transporter". From VM Thu Mar 21 14:25:37 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["874" "Thursday" "21" "March" "2002" "16:24:17" "-0600" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "26" "RE: starship-design: Fwd: FW: 100 years ago......" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 874 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2LMOmox026146 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 14:24:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2LMOlgr026145 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 14:24:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@traffic.gnt.net [204.49.53.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2LMOjox026136 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 14:24:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadsword (user121.net241.fl.sprint-hsd.net [64.45.208.121]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id QAA03704 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 16:24:37 -0600 Message-ID: <003b01c1d127$243f6a30$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-reply-To: <15513.27253.171091.317339@localhost.efn.org> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Subject: RE: starship-design: Fwd: FW: 100 years ago...... Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 16:24:17 -0600 Its even a far cry from being able to send a message, much less an actual object, but you never know... Lee > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu > [mailto:owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu]On Behalf Of Steve > VanDevender > Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 11:07 PM > To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu > Subject: RE: starship-design: Fwd: FW: 100 years ago...... > > > KellySt@aol.com writes: > > As to the transporter experiment > > > > http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/ > > "Quantum teleportation" means "we can take an initially unknown and > uncontrollable quantum state and duplicate it in two physically > separated locations, such that when we measure them they are > observed to > be identical and to collapse 'simultaneously'". This is a > far cry from > making a Star Trek "transporter". From VM Thu Mar 21 21:40:31 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["742" "Thursday" "21" "March" "2002" "21:30:10" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "18" "Re: starship-design: Fwd: FW: 100 years ago......" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 742 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2M2UYox027322 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 18:30:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2M2UYWr027321 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 18:30:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-r03.mx.aol.com (imo-r03.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.99]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2M2UVox027293 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 18:30:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id s.92.231b6ccf (14374); Thu, 21 Mar 2002 21:30:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <92.231b6ccf.29cbf132@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: stevev@efn.org, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Fwd: FW: 100 years ago...... Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 21:30:10 EST In a message dated 3/20/02 11:08:41 PM, stevev@efn.org writes: > > As to the transporter experiment > > > > http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/ > >"Quantum teleportation" means "we can take an initially unknown and >uncontrollable quantum state and duplicate it in two physically >separated locations, such that when we measure them they are observed to >be identical and to collapse 'simultaneously'". This is a far cry from >making a Star Trek "transporter". Not really. Both create a exact duplicate of the origional particles at the remote site. The problem is you can only do it a particle at a time, hence replicating a full object would take a rediculas amount of time. I.E. the systems useless for that. From VM Thu Mar 21 21:40:31 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1075" "Thursday" "21" "March" "2002" "19:07:46" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "24" "Re: starship-design: Fwd: FW: 100 years ago......" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1075 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2M39Lox007049 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:09:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2M39L1n007048 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:09:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2M39Kox007043 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:09:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (cisco-ts5-line132.uoregon.edu [128.223.208.142]) by clavin.efn.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2M39J429041 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:09:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g2M384r08170; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:08:04 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15514.40962.865672.681609@localhost.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <92.231b6ccf.29cbf132@aol.com> References: <92.231b6ccf.29cbf132@aol.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.03 under 21.4 (patch 6) "Common Lisp" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Fwd: FW: 100 years ago...... Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:07:46 -0800 KellySt@aol.com writes: > In a message dated 3/20/02 11:08:41 PM, stevev@efn.org writes: > > > > As to the transporter experiment > > > > > > http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/ > > > >"Quantum teleportation" means "we can take an initially unknown and > >uncontrollable quantum state and duplicate it in two physically > >separated locations, such that when we measure them they are observed to > >be identical and to collapse 'simultaneously'". This is a far cry from > >making a Star Trek "transporter". > > Not really. Both create a exact duplicate of the origional particles at the > remote site. No it doesn't. Quantum teleportation is just about creating correlation in a multiparticle system; it's not duplicating particles, but producing correlated pairs in separate locations. The "teleportation" is of quantum state; it doesn't move matter around. > The problem is you can only do it a particle at a time, hence > replicating a full object would take a rediculas amount of time. I.E. the > systems useless for that. From VM Thu Mar 21 21:40:31 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5264" "Thursday" "21" "March" "2002" "22:47:38" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "153" "starship-design: Fwd: Nanotech in WPost" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 5264 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2M3lnox015892 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:47:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2M3lnKJ015891 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:47:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-m03.mx.aol.com (imo-m03.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2M3lmox015877 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:47:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id z.d7.14cbf617 (25099) for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:47:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Fwd: Nanotech in WPost Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:47:38 EST FYI In a message dated 3/21/02 4:02:27 PM, dtaylor611@comcast.net writes: >Lads, >Here's more major newsprint on nanotech from today's Washington Post. >I >just copied and pasted here, shortish article. >Don Letter From Silicon Valley Big Potential From Small Things By Ariana Eunjung Cha Thursday, March 21, 2002; Page E01 MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif. -- The next big thing to come out of this birthplace of high tech could be small: Think tiny molecular delivery devices for medicines. Or "smart" dust that can monitor people without being detected. Maybe supercomputers the size of grains of salt. The mind-bending ideas seem straight out of works of science fiction, but some out here think they may be possible in the near future as interest grows in something called nanotechnology. Literally the manipulation of atoms or molecules, nanotechnology is a sort of "superscience" that encompasses everything from computing and materials science to health care. Its goal is to figure out a way to reconfigure the tiny particles to create things Mother Nature never imagined. Just a few years ago, nanotechnology was on the fringe of respected science, and skeptics still abound. But venture capital bigwigs are beginning to bet on the science, and real research is underway at the NASA Ames Research Center here. Even Washington is beginning to take notice after a series of breakthroughs. "The debate has shifted from 'Will it happen?' to 'When will it happen?' " said Christine Peterson, president of the Foresight Institute, a research institute dedicated to nanotechnology. Indeed, the prestigious journal Science noted that the demonstration of a nanoscale computer circuit by industry and academic researchers was 2001's "breakthrough of the year," surpassing even the completion of the mapping of the human genome. Major high-tech corporations including IBM, Hewlett-Packard, Motorola and Raytheon have launched nanotechnology initiatives, but these giants by no means have a monopoly on the research. Steve Jurvetson, a venture capitalist with Draper Fisher Jurvetson, said his firm has invested $40 million over the past two years in 12 upstart nanotechnology and related ventures. Much of the funding has gone to those working on shrinking electronics, but he's personally interested in companies that research mechanical-biological hybrids, such as those using a hemoglobin-like substance to make dense computer chips. "All the great unknowns of science revolve around nanotech in many ways," said Jurvetson, who has three pictures of atoms on a wall of his office in Redwood City and uses words such as "magic" and "mystery" to describe the field. The Bush administration has become so interested in the potential of the field that it has earmarked $604 million this year for nanotechnology research and development. That's up 43 percent from the 2001 budget. In one of the government's biggest public displays of its faith in the technology, the Pentagon recently announced that it would spend $50 million over the next five years to create a new laboratory at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology to focus on creating nanotech gear for soldiers. The research is increasingly important here in the heart of the high-tech world because companies are reaching the limit of how small they can make silicon chips. Without miniaturization, some say, the technology revolution could be stalled, and next-generation devices such as "chemistry labs on chips" -- capable of instantly analyzing soil samples or rocks on other planets -- would never be built. For NASA, making things smaller and lighter is important because of how much it costs to carry stuff into space. Meyya Meyyappan, who oversees about 60 scientists on NASA's nanotech team at the Ames Research Center, said his ultimate goal is to build what he calls a "thinking spacecraft" -- one with enough computing power on board so it can "make autonomous decisions so we don't need to control everything from Houston." That's critical for a successful manned mission to Mars. It costs $100,000 per pound to get something there, meaning that carrying a Cray computer is out of the question. And it's impractical to try to relay computations from Earth to Mars because it takes the signal 20 minutes to get from one point to another, and 20 minutes to get a response back. "If we don't make things smaller," Meyyappan said, "we won't be able to go on any new missions." The recent breakthroughs in nanotechnology have also prompted worries from many prominent scientists, such as Sun Microsystems' Bill Joy. They compare it to atomic research in the 1950s and today's mammal-cloning efforts. They point to nightmare scenarios such as the one in Kurt Vonnegut's 1963 novel "Cat's Cradle." The story's scientist had discovered a way to stack up water molecules to make ice solid at room temperature. But the molecules somehow get loose and end up freezing the world's oceans. NASA's Meyyappan calls this the "scary part" of the science but dismisses it as nothing more than a "Hollywood story." "Pretty much everything man has made since the dawn of civilization he has been able to control," he said. Back to Washtech Home From VM Thu Mar 21 21:40:31 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1084" "Thursday" "21" "March" "2002" "22:47:48" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "34" "Re: starship-design: Fwd: FW: 100 years ago......" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1084 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2M3m0ox015927 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:48:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2M3m0I9015926 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:48:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-m06.mx.aol.com (imo-m06.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.161]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2M3lwox015901 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:47:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id z.91.1a2ef662 (25099) for ; Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:47:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <91.1a2ef662.29cc0364@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Fwd: FW: 100 years ago...... Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:47:48 EST True. What it shows is more then you would have expected. Interesting that IBM was funding research in this? In a message dated 3/21/02 4:25:14 PM, lparker@cacaphony.net writes: >Its even a far cry from being able to send a message, much less an actual >object, but you never know... > >Lee > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu >> [mailto:owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu]On Behalf Of Steve >> VanDevender >> Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 11:07 PM >> To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu >> Subject: RE: starship-design: Fwd: FW: 100 years ago...... >> >> >> KellySt@aol.com writes: >> > As to the transporter experiment >> > >> > http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/ >> >> "Quantum teleportation" means "we can take an initially unknown and >> uncontrollable quantum state and duplicate it in two physically >> separated locations, such that when we measure them they are >> observed to >> be identical and to collapse 'simultaneously'". This is a >> far cry from >> making a Star Trek "transporter". From VM Fri Mar 22 19:04:07 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1660" "Friday" "22" "March" "2002" "17:01:36" "-0800" "Curtis Manges" "clmanges@yahoo.com" nil "50" "Fwd: Re: starship-design: Fwd: FW: 100 years ago......" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1660 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2N11box023963 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:01:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2N11bjY023962 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:01:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13602.mail.yahoo.com (web13602.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.113]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g2N11aox023955 for ; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:01:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20020323010136.89130.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.148.24.241] by web13602.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:01:36 PST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Curtis Manges From: Curtis Manges Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design Subject: Fwd: Re: starship-design: Fwd: FW: 100 years ago...... Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:01:36 -0800 (PST) --- Steve VanDevender wrote: > From: Steve VanDevender > Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:07:46 -0800 > To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu > Subject: Re: starship-design: Fwd: FW: 100 years ago...... > Reply-to: Steve VanDevender > > KellySt@aol.com writes: > > In a message dated 3/20/02 11:08:41 PM, stevev@efn.org writes: > > > > > > As to the transporter experiment > > > > > > > > http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/ > > > > > >"Quantum teleportation" means "we can take an initially unknown > and > > >uncontrollable quantum state and duplicate it in two physically > > >separated locations, such that when we measure them they are > observed to > > >be identical and to collapse 'simultaneously'". This is a far > cry from > > >making a Star Trek "transporter". > > > > Not really. Both create a exact duplicate of the origional > particles at the > > remote site. > > No it doesn't. Quantum teleportation is just about creating > correlation > in a multiparticle system; it's not duplicating particles, but > producing > correlated pairs in separate locations. The "teleportation" is of > quantum state; it doesn't move matter around. > > > The problem is you can only do it a particle at a time, hence > > replicating a full object would take a rediculas amount of time. > I.E. the > > systems useless for that. Don't beam me up, Scotty, just send the shuttle. ===== get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® http://movies.yahoo.com/ From VM Tue Mar 26 11:27:39 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6931" "Tuesday" "26" "March" "2002" "12:11:53" "-0600" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "168" "starship-design: Explorer Class" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil "starship-design: Explorer Class" nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 6931 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2QICNVi020182 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:12:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2QICNAJ020176 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:12:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@traffic.gnt.net [204.49.53.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2QICKVi020089 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:12:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadsword (user121.net241.fl.sprint-hsd.net [64.45.208.121]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id MAA25240 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 12:12:15 -0600 Message-ID: <006c01c1d4f1$b60bfb90$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_006D_01C1D4BF.6B718B90" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design List \(E-mail\)" Subject: starship-design: Explorer Class Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 12:11:53 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006D_01C1D4BF.6B718B90 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_006E_01C1D4BF.6B718B90" ------=_NextPart_001_006E_01C1D4BF.6B718B90 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_002_006F_01C1D4BF.6B718B90" ------=_NextPart_002_006F_01C1D4BF.6B718B90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kelly, Do you still have a copy of the Explorer Class docs? Lee ------=_NextPart_002_006F_01C1D4BF.6B718B90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kelly,
 
Do you still = have a copy=20 of the Explorer Class docs?
 
Lee
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Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="SandCastle Contractors, Inc. Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Parker;L. FN:L. Clayton Parker (E-mail) ORG:SandCastle Contractors, Inc. TEL;WORK;VOICE:(850) 650-6588 TEL;HOME;VOICE:(850) 654-4773 TEL;CELL;VOICE:(850) 585-5502 TEL;CAR;VOICE:(850) 585-5504 TEL;WORK;FAX:(850) 650-6588 ADR;WORK:;;P.O. Box 1762;Destin;FL;32540-1762 LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:P.O. Box 1762=3D0D=3D0ADestin, FL = 32540-1762 EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:lparker@cacaphony.net REV:20011020T212607Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_006D_01C1D4BF.6B718B90-- From VM Tue Mar 26 15:09:24 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["10447" "Tuesday" "26" "March" "2002" "17:07:11" "-0600" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "232" "starship-design: AsterAnts" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 10447 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2QN7eVi025353 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:07:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2QN7e2S025352 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:07:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@traffic.gnt.net [204.49.53.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2QN7cVi025317 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:07:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadsword (user121.net241.fl.sprint-hsd.net [64.45.208.121]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id RAA02013 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 17:07:33 -0600 Message-ID: <008c01c1d51a$f659c9b0$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_008D_01C1D4E8.ABBF59B0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design List \(E-mail\)" Subject: starship-design: AsterAnts Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 17:07:11 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008D_01C1D4E8.ABBF59B0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_008E_01C1D4E8.ABBF59B0" ------=_NextPart_001_008E_01C1D4E8.ABBF59B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_002_008F_01C1D4E8.ABBF59B0" ------=_NextPart_002_008F_01C1D4E8.ABBF59B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Abstract AsterAnts is a concept calling for a fleet of solar sail powered spacecraft to retrieve large numbers of small (1/2-1 meter diameter) Near Earth Objects (NEOs) for orbital processing. AsterAnts could use the International Space Station (ISS) for NEO processing, solar sail construction, and to test NEO capture hardware. Solar sails constructed on orbit are expected to have substantially better performance than their ground built counterparts [Wright 1992]. Furthermore, solar sails may be used to hold geosynchronous communication satellites out-of-plane [Forward 1981] increasing the total number of slots by at least a factor of three, potentially generating $2 billion worth of orbital real estate over North America alone. NEOs are believed to contain large quantities of water, carbon, other life-support materials and metals. Thus, with proper processing, NEO materials could in principle be used to resupply the ISS, produce rocket propellant, manufacture tools, and build additional ISS working space. Unlike proposals requiring massive facilities, such as lunar bases, before returning any extraterrestrial materials, AsterAnts could conceivably begin operation with a single spacecraft whose payload is no larger than a typical inter-planetary mission. Furthermore, AsterAnts could be scaled up to deliver large amounts of material by building many copies of the same spacecraft, thereby achieving manufacturing economies of scale. Because AsterAnts would capture NEOs whole, NEO composition details, which are generally poorly characterized, are relatively unimportant and no complex extraction equipment is necessary. In combination with a materials processing facility at the ISS, AsterAnts might inaugurate an era of large-scale orbital construction using extraterrestrial materials. http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/papers/AsterAnts/paper.html ------=_NextPart_002_008F_01C1D4E8.ABBF59B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Abstract

AsterAnts  is a concept calling for a fleet of = solar sail=20 powered spacecraft to retrieve large numbers of small (1/2-1 meter = diameter)=20 Near Earth Objects (NEOs) for orbital processing.  AsterAnts could = use the=20 International Space Station (ISS) for NEO processing, solar sail = construction,=20 and to test NEO capture hardware. Solar sails constructed on orbit are = expected=20 to have substantially better performance than their ground built = counterparts=20 [Wright 1992]. Furthermore, solar sails may be used to hold = geosynchronous=20 communication satellites out-of-plane [Forward 1981] increasing the = total number=20 of slots by at least a factor of three, potentially generating $2 = billion worth=20 of orbital real estate over North America alone. NEOs are believed to = contain=20 large quantities of water, carbon, other life-support materials and = metals.=20 Thus, with proper processing, NEO materials could in principle be used = to=20 resupply the ISS, produce rocket propellant, manufacture tools, and = build=20 additional ISS working space.=20

Unlike proposals requiring massive facilities, such as lunar bases, = before=20 returning any extraterrestrial materials, AsterAnts could conceivably = begin=20 operation with a single spacecraft whose payload is no larger than a = typical=20 inter-planetary mission.  Furthermore, AsterAnts could be scaled up = to=20 deliver large amounts of material by building many copies of the same=20 spacecraft, thereby achieving manufacturing economies of scale. Because=20 AsterAnts would capture NEOs whole, NEO composition details, which are = generally=20 poorly characterized, are relatively unimportant and no complex = extraction=20 equipment is necessary. In combination with a materials processing = facility at=20 the ISS, AsterAnts might inaugurate an era of large-scale orbital = construction=20 using extraterrestrial materials.
 

http= ://www.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/papers/AsterAnts/paper.html
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Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="SandCastle Contractors, Inc. Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Parker;L. FN:L. Clayton Parker (E-mail) ORG:SandCastle Contractors, Inc. TEL;WORK;VOICE:(850) 650-6588 TEL;HOME;VOICE:(850) 654-4773 TEL;CELL;VOICE:(850) 585-5502 TEL;CAR;VOICE:(850) 585-5504 TEL;WORK;FAX:(850) 650-6588 ADR;WORK:;;P.O. Box 1762;Destin;FL;32540-1762 LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:P.O. Box 1762=3D0D=3D0ADestin, FL = 32540-1762 EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:lparker@cacaphony.net REV:20011020T212607Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_008D_01C1D4E8.ABBF59B0-- From VM Tue Mar 26 15:37:16 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2840" "Tuesday" "26" "March" "2002" "17:34:32" "-0600" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "63" "starship-design: AsterAnts (plain text)" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2840 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2QNZ1Vi008807 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:35:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2QNZ14O008802 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:35:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@traffic.gnt.net [204.49.53.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2QNYxVi008777 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:35:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadsword (user121.net241.fl.sprint-hsd.net [64.45.208.121]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id RAA13860 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 17:34:54 -0600 Message-ID: <009601c1d51e$c8e41310$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0097_01C1D4EC.7E49A310" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design List \(E-mail\)" Subject: starship-design: AsterAnts (plain text) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 17:34:32 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0097_01C1D4EC.7E49A310 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Abstract AsterAnts is a concept calling for a fleet of solar sail powered spacecraft to retrieve large numbers of small (1/2-1 meter diameter) Near Earth Objects (NEOs) for orbital processing. AsterAnts could use the International Space Station (ISS) for NEO processing, solar sail construction, and to test NEO capture hardware. Solar sails constructed on orbit are expected to have substantially better performance than their ground built counterparts [Wright 1992]. Furthermore, solar sails may be used to hold geosynchronous communication satellites out-of-plane [Forward 1981] increasing the total number of slots by at least a factor of three, potentially generating $2 billion worth of orbital real estate over North America alone. NEOs are believed to contain large quantities of water, carbon, other life-support materials and metals. Thus, with proper processing, NEO materials could in principle be used to resupply the ISS, produce rocket propellant, manufacture tools, and build additional ISS working space. Unlike proposals requiring massive facilities, such as lunar bases, before returning any extraterrestrial materials, AsterAnts could conceivably begin operation with a single spacecraft whose payload is no larger than a typical inter-planetary mission. Furthermore, AsterAnts could be scaled up to deliver large amounts of material by building many copies of the same spacecraft, thereby achieving manufacturing economies of scale. Because AsterAnts would capture NEOs whole, NEO composition details, which are generally poorly characterized, are relatively unimportant and no complex extraction equipment is necessary. In combination with a materials processing facility at the ISS, AsterAnts might inaugurate an era of large-scale orbital construction using extraterrestrial materials. http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/papers/AsterAnts/paper.html ------=_NextPart_000_0097_01C1D4EC.7E49A310 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="SandCastle Contractors, Inc. Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="SandCastle Contractors, Inc. Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Parker;L. FN:L. Clayton Parker (E-mail) ORG:SandCastle Contractors, Inc. TEL;WORK;VOICE:(850) 650-6588 TEL;HOME;VOICE:(850) 654-4773 TEL;CELL;VOICE:(850) 585-5502 TEL;CAR;VOICE:(850) 585-5504 TEL;WORK;FAX:(850) 650-6588 ADR;WORK:;;P.O. Box 1762;Destin;FL;32540-1762 LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:P.O. Box 1762=3D0D=3D0ADestin, FL = 32540-1762 EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:lparker@cacaphony.net REV:20011020T212607Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_0097_01C1D4EC.7E49A310-- From VM Tue Mar 26 16:25:25 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2054" "Tuesday" "26" "March" "2002" "19:23:42" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "55" "Fwd: starship-design: AsterAnts" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2054 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2R0NsVi027238 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:23:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2R0NstP027237 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:23:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-m07.mx.aol.com (imo-m07.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.162]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2R0NqVi027221 for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:23:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-m07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id z.b2.8d068f4 (14377) for ; Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:23:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_b2.8d068f4.29d26b0e_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Fwd: starship-design: AsterAnts Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:23:42 EST --part1_b2.8d068f4.29d26b0e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > NEOs are >believed to contain large quantities of water, carbon, other life-support >materials and metals. Thus, with proper processing, NEO materials could >in principle be used to resupply the ISS, produce rocket propellant, >manufacture tools, and build additional ISS working space. They couldn't build more working space, that requires a manufactured system. Even water could likely be shiped up to the station cheaper and more safely them it could be suplied by this..... ... Oh wait, their is no launch cost for water. Its just caried along on shuttle flights to carry crew or other suplies. The extra weight isn't significant, and causes no real increse in shuttle costs. --part1_b2.8d068f4.29d26b0e_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: From: KellySt@aol.com Full-name: Kelly St Message-ID: <13f.ba43076.29d26aab@aol.com> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:22:03 EST Subject: Re: starship-design: AsterAnts To: lparker@cacaphony.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 In a message dated 3/26/02 5:09:41 PM, lparker@cacaphony.net writes: > NEOs are >believed to contain large quantities of water, carbon, other life-support >materials and metals. Thus, with proper processing, NEO materials could >in principle be used to resupply the ISS, produce rocket propellant, >manufacture tools, and build additional ISS working space. They couldn't build more working space, that requires a manufactured system. Even water could likely be shiped up to the station cheaper and more safely them it could be suplied by this..... ... Oh wait, their is no launch cost for water. Its just caried along on shuttle flights to carry crew or other suplies. The extra weight isn't significant, and causes no real increse in shuttle costs. --part1_b2.8d068f4.29d26b0e_boundary-- From VM Thu Mar 28 10:14:31 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2608" "Wednesday" "27" "March" "2002" "07:10:53" "-0800" "Curtis Manges" "clmanges@yahoo.com" nil "72" "Fwd: starship-design: AsterAnts" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2608 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2RFAsVi013605 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 07:10:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2RFAs0p013604 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 07:10:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13604.mail.yahoo.com (web13604.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.115]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g2RFArVi013598 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 07:10:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20020327151053.62361.qmail@web13604.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.148.24.245] by web13604.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 07:10:53 PST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Curtis Manges From: Curtis Manges Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design Subject: Fwd: starship-design: AsterAnts Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 07:10:53 -0800 (PST) This sounds great -- a (relatively) cheap and easy set of bootstraps to pull ourselves up with, and since it looks like it could prove profitable for someone, it might have a chance. keep looking up, Curtis --- "L. Parker" wrote: > From: "L. Parker" > To: "Starship-Design List \(E-mail\)" > > Subject: starship-design: AsterAnts > Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 17:07:11 -0600 > Reply-to: "L. Parker" > > Abstract > AsterAnts is a concept calling for a fleet of solar sail powered > spacecraft > to retrieve large numbers of small (1/2-1 meter diameter) Near > Earth Objects > (NEOs) for orbital processing. AsterAnts could use the > International Space > Station (ISS) for NEO processing, solar sail construction, and to > test NEO > capture hardware. Solar sails constructed on orbit are expected to > have > substantially better performance than their ground built > counterparts > [Wright 1992]. Furthermore, solar sails may be used to hold > geosynchronous > communication satellites out-of-plane [Forward 1981] increasing the > total > number of slots by at least a factor of three, potentially > generating $2 > billion worth of orbital real estate over North America alone. NEOs > are > believed to contain large quantities of water, carbon, other > life-support > materials and metals. Thus, with proper processing, NEO materials > could in > principle be used to resupply the ISS, produce rocket propellant, > manufacture tools, and build additional ISS working space. > Unlike proposals requiring massive facilities, such as lunar bases, > before > returning any extraterrestrial materials, AsterAnts could > conceivably begin > operation with a single spacecraft whose payload is no larger than > a typical > inter-planetary mission. Furthermore, AsterAnts could be scaled up > to > deliver large amounts of material by building many copies of the > same > spacecraft, thereby achieving manufacturing economies of scale. > Because > AsterAnts would capture NEOs whole, NEO composition details, which > are > generally poorly characterized, are relatively unimportant and no > complex > extraction equipment is necessary. In combination with a materials > processing facility at the ISS, AsterAnts might inaugurate an era > of > large-scale orbital construction using extraterrestrial materials. > ===== get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® http://movies.yahoo.com/ From VM Thu Mar 28 10:14:31 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["532" "Wednesday" "27" "March" "2002" "07:24:21" "-0800" "Curtis Manges" "clmanges@yahoo.com" nil "21" "Fwd: starship-design: AsterAnts" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 532 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2RFOMVi016304 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 07:24:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2RFOMUD016303 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 07:24:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13601.mail.yahoo.com (web13601.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.112]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id g2RFOLVi016295 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 07:24:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20020327152421.14468.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.148.24.245] by web13601.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 07:24:21 PST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Curtis Manges From: Curtis Manges Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design Subject: Fwd: starship-design: AsterAnts Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 07:24:21 -0800 (PST) > ... Oh wait, their is no launch cost for water. Its just caried > along on > shuttle flights to carry crew or other suplies. The extra weight > isn't > significant, and causes no real increse in shuttle costs. > Excuse me?? I thought _everything_ had a launch cost. And the weight _is_ significant, about 60 lb/cubic foot. Curtis ===== get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® http://movies.yahoo.com/ From VM Thu Mar 28 10:14:31 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1047" "Wednesday" "27" "March" "2002" "11:37:54" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "21" "Fwd: starship-design: AsterAnts" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1047 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2RJdmVi023202 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:39:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2RJdm6T023199 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:39:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2RJdkVi023186 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:39:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (cisco-ts6-line44.uoregon.edu [128.223.209.104]) by clavin.efn.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2RJdiS02135 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:39:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g2RJcI223517; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:38:18 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15522.8082.355287.208517@localhost.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <20020327152421.14468.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020327152421.14468.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.03 under 21.4 (patch 6) "Common Lisp" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design Subject: Fwd: starship-design: AsterAnts Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:37:54 -0800 Curtis Manges writes: > > ... Oh wait, their is no launch cost for water. Its just caried along on > > shuttle flights to carry crew or other suplies. The extra weight isn't > > significant, and causes no real increse in shuttle costs. > > Excuse me?? I thought _everything_ had a launch cost. And the weight > _is_ significant, about 60 lb/cubic foot. I have this vague memory that a lot of the water they use on shuttle flights is produced as by the fuel cells they use to generate power. So in a sense they may be getting their water for free; the money was spent on launching the fuel. Note that the per-pound launch costs quoted for payload are typically calculated by dividing the cost of flying an entire shuttle mission by the weight of the payload. Water carried for crew use _isn't_ payload and therefore won't have much effect on the payload launch cost. The cost per pound to put the entire shuttle in orbit is quite a bit less than the payload launch cost; the payload is only a fraction of the entire shuttle weight. From VM Thu Mar 28 10:14:31 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2051" "Wednesday" "27" "March" "2002" "16:13:33" "-0600" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "42" "RE: starship-design: AsterAnts" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2051 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2RME6Vi018990 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:14:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2RME60h018989 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:14:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@traffic.gnt.net [204.49.53.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2RME4Vi018984 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:14:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadsword (user121.net241.fl.sprint-hsd.net [64.45.208.121]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id QAA12354 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:14:00 -0600 Message-ID: <00e101c1d5dc$a3295180$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: <15522.8082.355287.208517@localhost.efn.org> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "'starship-design'" Subject: RE: starship-design: AsterAnts Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:13:33 -0600 > I have this vague memory that a lot of the water they use on shuttle > flights is produced as by the fuel cells they use to generate > power. So > in a sense they may be getting their water for free; the > money was spent > on launching the fuel. > > Note that the per-pound launch costs quoted for payload are typically > calculated by dividing the cost of flying an entire shuttle mission by > the weight of the payload. Water carried for crew use _isn't_ payload > and therefore won't have much effect on the payload launch cost. > > The cost per pound to put the entire shuttle in orbit is quite a bit > less than the payload launch cost; the payload is only a > fraction of the > entire shuttle weight. This is all true, but the fact remains that there is a cost for the water. Even though it is a byproduct, the hydrazine costs something and the fuel to launch the hydrazine still costs something. If it wasn't for this fortuitous circumstance, they WOULD have to launch water regularly. If one is going to assume an increased presence of people in orbit, then water will become an issue. The SSTS will not provide enough for a full ISS crew complement (if we ever get there). The AsterAnts concept is assuming that on orbit manufacturing will happen, and therefore there will be more people up there, so we will need not only materials for the manufacturing operations, but also water for the people. In this respect, water was actually considered almost a byproduct of the mining operation. (Here we go again, we are getting something for free... .) To reiterate and expand upon the reason I posted the concept in the first place, an Explorer class ship will need materials such as fuel when it reaches its' destination. It isn't practical to send out (or carry) lots of big mining ships, but if we had AsterAnts bringing lots of small rocks back to a central site for processing, that makes a lot more sense. We get metals, fuel, and even water, from an autonomous craft that doesn't even consume any fuel itself. Pretty slick. Lee From VM Thu Mar 28 10:14:31 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3024" "Wednesday" "27" "March" "2002" "19:37:51" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "84" "Re: starship-design: AsterAnts" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3024 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2S0c6Vi008533 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:38:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2S0c6S1008532 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:38:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-r04.mx.aol.com (imo-r04.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2S0c4Vi008468 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:38:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id z.18.1c8618e9 (3735) for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:37:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <18.1c8618e9.29d3bfdf@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: AsterAnts Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:37:51 EST In a message dated 3/27/02 4:14:38 PM, lparker@cacaphony.net writes: > >> I have this vague memory that a lot of the water they use on shuttle >> flights is produced as by the fuel cells they use to generate >> power. So >> in a sense they may be getting their water for free; the >> money was spent >> on launching the fuel. >> >> Note that the per-pound launch costs quoted for payload are typically >> calculated by dividing the cost of flying an entire shuttle mission by >> the weight of the payload. Water carried for crew use _isn't_ payload >> and therefore won't have much effect on the payload launch cost. >> >> The cost per pound to put the entire shuttle in orbit is quite a bit >> less than the payload launch cost; the payload is only a >> fraction of the >> entire shuttle weight. > > >This is all true, but the fact remains that there is a cost for the water. >Even though it is a byproduct, the hydrazine costs something and the fuel >to >launch the hydrazine still costs something. If it wasn't for this fortuitous >circumstance, they WOULD have to launch water regularly. They don't use the fuel cell derived water to stock the station. And the fuel cells arn't fueled by hydrazine. They use hydrogen and oxegen. If the water was the result of the fuel cells they would be fre, since no extra fuel would be lifted for water production, so their would be no extra cost. > >If one is going to assume an increased presence of people in orbit, then >water will become an issue. The SSTS will not provide enough for a full >ISS >crew complement (if we ever get there). === Ah, were there already. :( At this point were more likely to shut ISS down as expand it past 3 crewman. >==The AsterAnts concept is assuming >that on orbit manufacturing will happen, and therefore there will be more >people up there, so we will need not only materials for the manufacturing >operations, but also water for the people. In this respect, water was >actually considered almost a byproduct of the mining operation. (Here we >go >again, we are getting something for free... .) Given the water would need to be gotten from other places, and with other equipment, as the other material - it wouldn't be byproduct. > >To reiterate and expand upon the reason I posted the concept in the first >place, an Explorer class ship will need materials such as fuel when it >reaches its' destination. It isn't practical to send out (or carry) lots >of >big mining ships, but if we had AsterAnts bringing lots of small rocks >back >to a central site for processing, that makes a lot more sense. We get >metals, fuel, and even water, from an autonomous craft that doesn't even >consume any fuel itself. Pretty slick. > >Lee Ah, the ants will need fuel, and likely you'll need more mass of small ships to bring back as much minned material then if you used big minning ships. Thats why mines go for huge equipment. Also the fuel would be metal (Lithium - 6 ) for the Explorers and their support craft. Kelly From VM Thu Mar 28 10:14:31 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["749" "Wednesday" "27" "March" "2002" "19:38:39" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "24" "Re: starship-design: AsterAnts" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 749 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2S0cqVi008671 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:38:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2S0cqrc008670 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:38:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-m08.mx.aol.com (imo-m08.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.163]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2S0cpVi008652 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:38:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id z.a8.8e367fb (3735) for ; Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:38:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: AsterAnts Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:38:39 EST In a message dated 3/27/02 9:24:46 AM, clmanges@yahoo.com writes: >> ... Oh wait, their is no launch cost for water. Its just caried >> along on >> shuttle flights to carry crew or other suplies. The extra weight >> isn't >> significant, and causes no real increse in shuttle costs. >> > >Excuse me?? I thought _everything_ had a launch cost. And the weight >_is_ significant, about 60 lb/cubic foot. DA! It costs the about the same amount to launch a empty shuttle as a full one. They have to launch the shuttle to the station to take up the astronauts, and seldom have less then 10 tons of extra cargo capacity per launch. So lifting another ton of water, in a ship thats going there anyway, costs about nothing. > >Curtis Kelly From VM Thu Mar 28 10:14:32 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3341" "Thursday" "28" "March" "2002" "07:21:21" "-0800" "Viren Shah" "voshah@worldnet.att.net" nil "99" "starship-design: Remove " "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3341 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2SCL6MJ023014 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 04:21:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2SCL6rk023013 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 04:21:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.48]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2SCL3MJ023001 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 04:21:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from virenshah ([12.90.32.211]) by mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020328122057.HVJQ8815.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@virenshah>; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 12:20:57 +0000 Message-ID: <001701c1d66c$37966620$d3205a0c@virenshah> References: <18.1c8618e9.29d3bfdf@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Viren Shah" From: "Viren Shah" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: , Subject: starship-design: Remove Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 07:21:21 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 4:37 PM Subject: Re: starship-design: AsterAnts > > In a message dated 3/27/02 4:14:38 PM, lparker@cacaphony.net writes: > > > > >> I have this vague memory that a lot of the water they use on shuttle > >> flights is produced as by the fuel cells they use to generate > >> power. So > >> in a sense they may be getting their water for free; the > >> money was spent > >> on launching the fuel. > >> > >> Note that the per-pound launch costs quoted for payload are typically > >> calculated by dividing the cost of flying an entire shuttle mission by > >> the weight of the payload. Water carried for crew use _isn't_ payload > >> and therefore won't have much effect on the payload launch cost. > >> > >> The cost per pound to put the entire shuttle in orbit is quite a bit > >> less than the payload launch cost; the payload is only a > >> fraction of the > >> entire shuttle weight. > > > > > >This is all true, but the fact remains that there is a cost for the water. > >Even though it is a byproduct, the hydrazine costs something and the fuel > >to > >launch the hydrazine still costs something. If it wasn't for this fortuitous > >circumstance, they WOULD have to launch water regularly. > > They don't use the fuel cell derived water to stock the station. > > And the fuel cells arn't fueled by hydrazine. They use hydrogen and oxegen. > > If the water was the result of the fuel cells they would be fre, since no > extra fuel would be lifted for water production, so their would be no extra > cost. > > > > > > >If one is going to assume an increased presence of people in orbit, then > >water will become an issue. The SSTS will not provide enough for a full > >ISS > >crew complement (if we ever get there). === > > Ah, were there already. :( > > At this point were more likely to shut ISS down as expand it past 3 crewman. > > > >==The AsterAnts concept is assuming > >that on orbit manufacturing will happen, and therefore there will be more > >people up there, so we will need not only materials for the manufacturing > >operations, but also water for the people. In this respect, water was > >actually considered almost a byproduct of the mining operation. (Here we > >go > >again, we are getting something for free... .) > > Given the water would need to be gotten from other places, and with other > equipment, as the other material - it wouldn't be byproduct. > > > > > > > >To reiterate and expand upon the reason I posted the concept in the first > >place, an Explorer class ship will need materials such as fuel when it > >reaches its' destination. It isn't practical to send out (or carry) lots > >of > >big mining ships, but if we had AsterAnts bringing lots of small rocks > >back > >to a central site for processing, that makes a lot more sense. We get > >metals, fuel, and even water, from an autonomous craft that doesn't even > >consume any fuel itself. Pretty slick. > > > >Lee > > Ah, the ants will need fuel, and likely you'll need more mass of small ships > to bring back as much minned material then if you used big minning ships. > Thats why mines go for huge equipment. > > Also the fuel would be metal (Lithium - 6 ) for the Explorers and their > support craft. > > Kelly > From VM Thu Mar 28 10:14:32 2002 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["960" "Thursday" "28" "March" "2002" "07:21:34" "-0800" "Viren Shah" "voshah@worldnet.att.net" nil "34" "Remove starship-design: AsterAnts" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 960 Return-Path: Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2SCLMMJ023043 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 04:21:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g2SCLMIG023042 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 04:21:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.46]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g2SCLKMJ023028 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 04:21:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from virenshah ([12.90.32.211]) by mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020328122111.HFNH24238.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@virenshah>; Thu, 28 Mar 2002 12:21:11 +0000 Message-ID: <001d01c1d66c$3fa3dc80$d3205a0c@virenshah> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Viren Shah" From: "Viren Shah" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: , Subject: Remove starship-design: AsterAnts Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 07:21:34 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 4:38 PM Subject: Re: starship-design: AsterAnts > > In a message dated 3/27/02 9:24:46 AM, clmanges@yahoo.com writes: > > >> ... Oh wait, their is no launch cost for water. Its just caried > >> along on > >> shuttle flights to carry crew or other suplies. The extra weight > >> isn't > >> significant, and causes no real increse in shuttle costs. > >> > > > >Excuse me?? I thought _everything_ had a launch cost. And the weight > >_is_ significant, about 60 lb/cubic foot. > > DA! It costs the about the same amount to launch a empty shuttle as a full > one. They have to launch the shuttle to the station to take up the > astronauts, and seldom have less then 10 tons of extra cargo capacity per > launch. So lifting another ton of water, in a ship thats going there anyway, > costs about nothing. > > > > > >Curtis > > Kelly