From VM Mon Apr 2 10:13:21 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["523" "Saturday" "31" "March" "2001" "14:40:12" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "17" "Re: starship-design: Cryogenic Suspension" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 523 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f2VJeo904579 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 31 Mar 2001 11:40:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-r16.mx.aol.com (imo-r16.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.70]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f2VJeno04574 for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2001 11:40:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-r16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v29.14.) id z.a9.13702119 (18561) for ; Sat, 31 Mar 2001 14:40:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Cryogenic Suspension Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 14:40:12 EST In a message dated 3/29/01 9:56:56 PM, bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca writes: >KellySt@aol.com wrote: >> >> I don't know of anything online. I saw it on tv. I know they were doing >it >> on organs, but I'm not sure if they tried lab animals. >> >> Kelly > >Sure what happens after 50 light years of travel and when you recover from >the deep freeze the computer put you back with the WRONG body parts? >HAL 9009 -- sorry dave but that SEX change was for your own good. -- I was assuming they'll vitrify you all at once. ;) From VM Thu Apr 5 10:14:14 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5150" "Thursday" "5" "April" "2001" "09:59:55" "-0400" "Curtis Manges" "curtismanges@netscape.net" nil "124" "starship-design: [Fwd: Deep Space 1 Mission Status]" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 5150 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f35Dxct17107 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 06:59:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo-m02.mx.aol.com (imo-m02.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f35DxbL17102 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 06:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from curtismanges@netscape.net by imo-m02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v29.14.) id z.1c.12bdc77 (16243) for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 09:59:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netscape.com (aimmail10.aim.aol.com [205.188.144.202]) by air-in03.mx.aol.com (vx) with ESMTP; Thu, 05 Apr 2001 09:59:20 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <504E9ECD.5C5FA86A.74D2F445@netscape.net> X-Mailer: Franklin Webmailer 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: curtismanges@netscape.net (Curtis Manges) From: curtismanges@netscape.net (Curtis Manges) Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: [Fwd: Deep Space 1 Mission Status] Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 09:59:55 -0400 Good stuff, huh? -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Deep Space 1 Mission Status Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 23:06:52 -0700 (PDT) From: JPLNews@jpl.nasa.gov Reply-To: news-owner@www.jpl.nasa.gov To: undisclosed-recipients:; MEDIA RELATIONS OFFICE JET PROPULSION LABORATORY CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION PASADENA, CALIF. 91109 TELEPHONE (818) 354-5011 http://www.jpl.nasa.gov                 Deep Space 1 Mission Status                     April 4, 2001     The innovative engine now propelling NASA's Deep Space 1 spacecraft toward its ambitious September encounter with Comet Borrelly just won't give up, having now run for more than 10,000 hours -- 50 times beyond its originally required lifetime.     A working replica of the Deep Space 1 ion engine has logged in even more hours at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif., where the mission is managed.       The spacecraft's engine was only required to complete 200 hours of operation in flight to prove itself a success. On March 21, it passed the 10,000-hour mark. It's expected to pass 14,000 hours by the end of its extended mission to Comet Borrelly.     The ion engine works by first removing an electron from the gas xenon, then using a pair of electrically charged grids to shoot the ionized gas out at more than 35,000 meters per second (78,000 miles per hour).  The engine is one of a dozen important new technologies that the successful Deep Space 1 mission officially finished testing in 1999. Now that Deep Space 1 has been approved for a risky extended mission to Comet Borrelly, the long-lived ion engine will take the spacecraft near the comet. Similar ion engines may be used on future space missions, particularly missions to comets and asteroids where the ion engine's high fuel economy is important for precise navigation to the small bodies.     "The ground-based xenon ion engine has run for about 15,500 hours of testing time since the test began in early October 1998," said Dr. John Anderson of JPL, the ion engine test lead engineer. "That's more than 150 percent of the time it was designed to last."     "The results from Deep Space 1 and testing on the ground show that ion engines can be terrifically effective," said JPL's Dr. Marc Rayman, the project manager of Deep Space 1.   "Now I'm looking forward to future spacecraft that use ion engines surpassing Deep Space 1's record as they undertake still more exciting missions."       Engineers partly attribute the secrets to the ion engine's long life to a slight increase in the flow of xenon through the engine early in the testing phase. "This reduced the amount of wear on the engine, and yet didn't significantly affect the engine's efficiency," said Dr. John Brophy, manger of NASA's Solar Electric Propulsion Technology Applications Readiness project.     Anderson began testing the ground-based ion engine when it was shipped to JPL from Hughes, which is now part of Boeing, in 1998. "We'd like to test it until the end of its life. Then we'll see how to make these engines last even longer," he said.  He had also tested an earlier version of the ion engine, beginning in 1996.     The ion engine is tested for about 75 percent of the time over the two and a half years of the test, Anderson said, with other time spent on running diagnostic tests, and defrosting the xenon propellant that had become frozen in the vacuum system. At first, the engine was run at just more than half of its capacity, about 1.5 kilowatts, and then upped to full capacity, 2.3 kilowatts. The next phase of the test will be to run the engine at its lowest thrust level to demonstrate the engine's ability to run at low power near the end of its life, Anderson said.     Deep Space 1 has operated its ion engine between 520 watts and 1.9 kilowatts, in part depending upon the spacecraft's distance from the Sun during its flight in space. Deep Space 1's ion engine now also helps the spacecraft maintain its orientation relative to the stars, so it remains on for 99 percent of the time.     Deep Space 1 was launched in October 1998 as part of NASA's New Millennium Program, which is managed by JPL for NASA's Office of Space Science, Washington, D.C. The California Institute of Technology in Pasadena manages JPL for NASA.     More information can be found on the Deep Space 1 home page at http://nmp.jpl.nasa.gov/ds1/ .                                                 ##### 04/04/01 MJH #2001-074 --------------------------------------------------------------- You are subscribed to JPL's news mailing list.  To unsubscribe, please send an e-mail to  JPLNews@jpl.nasa.gov  and in the body of the message include the following line. unsubscribe news Please do not reply to this e-mail.   For help,  send a message to listmaster@www.jpl.nasa.gov. -- visit my website: http://www.geocities.com/clmanges/ __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From VM Fri Apr 20 19:22:25 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1903" "Friday" "20" "April" "2001" "22:19:08" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "62" "starship-design: Anyone interested" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1903 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f3L2JLv29596 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo-r14.mx.aol.com (imo-r14.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.68]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f3L2JK129590 for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-r14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.9.) id z.e5.52af517 (4209) for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 22:19:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Anyone interested Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 22:19:08 EDT Hey guys, Anyone interested in this? I haven't had time to think about this, adn realized no one else mentioned anything about it. Is anyone interested? Or should I tell Paul we're not interested? I could offer the Lit site stuff? Any other ideas? Kelly ====================================================================== Dear m.h. Starks, TransOrbital, Inc. is currently designing its 2001 Trailblazer lunar imaging spacecraft - intended to be launched at the end of this year as the first commercial lunar mission. We would like to invite the Institute to participate in the 2001 Trailblazer mission. Primarily, as part of a consumer product associated with the mission, we will be including a computer CD containing information about the mission and the Moon. Given the Institute's interest in the subject, I believe that a partnership in developing material for the CD would be mutually beneficial. If you are not the person responsible, I would greatly appreciate it if you could direct me to the proper contact. Thank you. Sincerely W. Paul Blase TransOrbital, Inc. 6430 The Parkway Alexandria, VA 22310 http://www.transorbital.net pblase@transorbital.net 703.960.5953 In a message dated 3/24/01 12:03:49 AM, Kelly St writes: << What did you have in mind? >> Basically, as part of the CD we'd like to include a collection of lunar data: images, an atlas, history, mythology - whatever could be put together, preferably out of public-domain material, into an HTML (read on anything) document. We have some material that we'd like to put on there, but not enough to fill a whole CD. I can master the disk, but we're a little short-handed, and busy trying to design the spacecraft, and I thought that a group like yours would like to take it on. We'd need a professional product, terms to be negotiated. Paul Blase From VM Tue May 15 10:18:51 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["846" "Monday" "14" "May" "2001" "18:16:47" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "32" "starship-design: Re: about the Webpage" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil "starship-design: Re: about the Webpage" nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 846 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4EMHYs24494 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:17:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo-m05.mx.aol.com (imo-m05.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.8]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4EMHXw24482 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-m05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.10.) id h.5a.158dbba1 (4215); Mon, 14 May 2001 18:16:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5a.158dbba1.2831b34f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: anilir@ae.kajima.co.jp, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: about the Webpage Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 18:16:47 EDT Glad to hear your interested in the group. I'm not sure how to join the list anymore, but I'm forwarding a copy of this to the group list - so it should get a responce. Kelly Starks In a message dated 5/10/01 1:05:37 AM, anilir@ae.kajima.co.jp writes: >Hi > >I just saw your Webpage when I was surfing on the net about same space >design information. >I am working as an architect in Japan about space design and attending >the >doctoral graduate program of Tokyo University >I would like to join as a member to your group and have the chance to speak >with other people about future visions. >I would be happy if you add my mail to your member's list > >regards > >serkan > >*** >A.Serkan ANILIR M.Sc. >Kajima Cooperation >Architectural and Engineering Department >Space Habitation & Technology Group Leader >anilir@ae.kajima.co.jp >*** From VM Wed May 16 17:01:04 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["11132" "Wednesday" "16" "May" "2001" "19:50:54" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "268" "starship-design: Fwd: Mystery force tugs distant probes" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 11132 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4GNpCR27689 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 16 May 2001 16:51:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo-m05.mx.aol.com (imo-m05.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.8]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4GNpAw27656 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 16:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-m05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.10.) id n.96.1455b238 (3311); Wed, 16 May 2001 19:50:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <96.1455b238.28346c5e@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_96.1455b238.28346c5e_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: DTaylor648@aol.com, JohnFrance@aol.com, moschleg@erols.com, SFnoirSD@aol.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Fwd: Mystery force tugs distant probes Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 19:50:54 EDT --part1_96.1455b238.28346c5e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/16/01 2:23:59 PM, kgstarks@collins.rockwell.com writes: > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1332000/1332368.stm > > >Tuesday, 15 May, 2001, 15:46 GMT 16:46 UK > Mystery force tugs > distant probes > > The Pioneer craft are heading towards the stars > By BBC News Online science editor Dr > David Whitehouse > > An unexplained force is pulling on distant > spacecraft. Researchers have come to this > conclusion after a thorough analysis of the > deep-space probes' trajectories. > > It could be just a tiny > unnoticed effect in the > spacecraft themselves, > but scientists warn it > could also be the first > hint that modifications > need to be made to our > understanding of the > force of gravity. > > "It is almost as if the > probes are not behaving according to the > known law of gravity," said Dr John Anderson, > of the American space agency's (Nasa) Jet > Propulsion Laboratory, and lead scientist on > the study. > > He said: "We've been working on this problem > for several years, and we have accounted for > everything we could think of." > > Great detail > > The unexplained force appears to be acting on > four deep-space probes scattered around the > Solar System. > > Pioneer 10 was launched towards the outer > planets in 1972. It is now well beyond Jupiter > but still in radio contact with Earth. > > By studying the Doppler shift (the "stretching") > of the radio signals from the probe, scientists > have been able to calculate how fast the craft > is travelling. Since 1980, its trajectory has > been mapped in very great detail. > > The puzzle is that Pioneer 10 is slowing more > quickly than it should. > > It was initially suggested that this might be > due to the force from a tiny gas leak or that it > was being pulled off course by the gravity of > an unseen Solar System object. > > Unseen body > > The mystery deepened further when an > analysis of the trajectory being followed by its > sister spacecraft, Pioneer 11, launched in > 1973, showed that it too was being subjected > to the same mysterious effect. > > But Pioneer 11 is on the opposite side of the > Solar System from Pioneer 10, about 22 billion > km (about 14 billion miles) away. This means > the effect cannot be the gravitational effect > of some unseen body. > > Add to all this hints that the same unexplained > effect might have been acting on the Galileo > spacecraft on its journey to Jupiter, and the > Ulysses spaceprobe that is circling the Sun, > and you have a Solar System-wide puzzle. > > In a report soon to be published in a major > astronomical journal, Dr Anderson and > colleagues have carried out an impressive > study of the state of the Pioneer spacecraft > and all the tiny forces to which they could be > subjected. > > Planets unaffected > > "Our analysis strongly suggests that it is > difficult to understand how any of these > mechanisms can explain the magnitude of the > observed behaviour of the Pioneer anomaly," > the team says. > > It has been suggested that the spacecraft > tracking data have shown a deviation in the > force of gravity that is apparent only across > vast distances. It has also been pointed out > that the strength of the effect seems to be > related to two of the Universe's physical > constants: the speed of light and the speed of > the expansion of the Universe. > > But others have dismissed this as being too > fanciful, arguing that if the Pioneer anomaly > was really indicative of a change in our > understanding of gravity, then it would be > apparent in the orbits of the planets around > the Sun - which it is not. > > The effect is as yet unexplained and with all > four affected probes never to return to Earth > for analysis, it may well remain that way. > --part1_96.1455b238.28346c5e_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-yg04.mx.aol.com (rly-yg04.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.4]) by air-yg02.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.36) with ESMTP; Wed, 16 May 2001 15:23:59 -0400 Received: from fw01.collins.rockwell.com (gatekeeper.collins.rockwell.com [205.175.225.1]) by rly-yg04.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.36) with ESMTP; Wed, 16 May 2001 15:23:24 -0400 Received: by fw01.collins.rockwell.com; id OAA19439; Wed, 16 May 2001 14:23:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Received: from nodnsquery(131.198.213.32) by fw01.collins.rockwell.com via smap (V5.5) id xma018675; Wed, 16 May 01 14:22:03 -0500 Subject: Mystery force tugs distant probes To: kellyst@aol.com, "Rhonda Elpers" , sjhootma@collins.rockwell.com, kathan_1@yahoo.com, kath2go@yahoo.com, Kryswalker@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:21:18 -0500 Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on CollinsCRSMTP01/CedarRapids/Collins/Rockwell(Release 5.0.6 |December 14, 2000) at 05/16/2001 02:22:04 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1332000/1332368.stm Tuesday, 15 May, 2001, 15:46 GMT 16:46 UK Mystery force tugs distant probes The Pioneer craft are heading towards the stars By BBC News Online science editor Dr David Whitehouse An unexplained force is pulling on distant spacecraft. Researchers have come to this conclusion after a thorough analysis of the deep-space probes' trajectories. It could be just a tiny unnoticed effect in the spacecraft themselves, but scientists warn it could also be the first hint that modifications need to be made to our understanding of the force of gravity. "It is almost as if the probes are not behaving according to the known law of gravity," said Dr John Anderson, of the American space agency's (Nasa) Jet Propulsion Laboratory, and lead scientist on the study. He said: "We've been working on this problem for several years, and we have accounted for everything we could think of." Great detail The unexplained force appears to be acting on four deep-space probes scattered around the Solar System. Pioneer 10 was launched towards the outer planets in 1972. It is now well beyond Jupiter but still in radio contact with Earth. By studying the Doppler shift (the "stretching") of the radio signals from the probe, scientists have been able to calculate how fast the craft is travelling. Since 1980, its trajectory has been mapped in very great detail. The puzzle is that Pioneer 10 is slowing more quickly than it should. It was initially suggested that this might be due to the force from a tiny gas leak or that it was being pulled off course by the gravity of an unseen Solar System object. Unseen body The mystery deepened further when an analysis of the trajectory being followed by its sister spacecraft, Pioneer 11, launched in 1973, showed that it too was being subjected to the same mysterious effect. But Pioneer 11 is on the opposite side of the Solar System from Pioneer 10, about 22 billion km (about 14 billion miles) away. This means the effect cannot be the gravitational effect of some unseen body. Add to all this hints that the same unexplained effect might have been acting on the Galileo spacecraft on its journey to Jupiter, and the Ulysses spaceprobe that is circling the Sun, and you have a Solar System-wide puzzle. In a report soon to be published in a major astronomical journal, Dr Anderson and colleagues have carried out an impressive study of the state of the Pioneer spacecraft and all the tiny forces to which they could be subjected. Planets unaffected "Our analysis strongly suggests that it is difficult to understand how any of these mechanisms can explain the magnitude of the observed behaviour of the Pioneer anomaly," the team says. It has been suggested that the spacecraft tracking data have shown a deviation in the force of gravity that is apparent only across vast distances. It has also been pointed out that the strength of the effect seems to be related to two of the Universe's physical constants: the speed of light and the speed of the expansion of the Universe. But others have dismissed this as being too fanciful, arguing that if the Pioneer anomaly was really indicative of a change in our understanding of gravity, then it would be apparent in the orbits of the planets around the Sun - which it is not. The effect is as yet unexplained and with all four affected probes never to return to Earth for analysis, it may well remain that way. --part1_96.1455b238.28346c5e_boundary-- From VM Wed May 16 17:13:40 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["252" "Wednesday" "16" "May" "2001" "03:01:59" "-0600" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "6" "starship-design: unknown force" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 252 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4H09jT05732 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 16 May 2001 17:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4H09fw05711 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 17:09:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (dialin49.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.49]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA02760 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 18:09:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3B024207.613F067D@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: starship-design: unknown force Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 03:01:59 -0600 try autodynamics to explain the gravity problem. http://www.autodynamics.org/ -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk From VM Thu May 17 10:26:49 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["317" "Wednesday" "16" "May" "2001" "17:25:59" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "7" "starship-design: unknown force" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 317 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4H0QfV13038 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 16 May 2001 17:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4H0Qew13029 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 17:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [206.163.182.194]) by clavin.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4H0Qdf07838 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 17:26:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4H0Q0W02314; Wed, 16 May 2001 17:26:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15107.6807.746072.201861@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <3B024207.613F067D@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <3B024207.613F067D@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: VM 6.92 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: starship-design: unknown force Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 17:25:59 -0700 Ben Franchuk writes: > try autodynamics to explain the gravity problem. > http://www.autodynamics.org/ As far as I can tell autodynamics is run-of-the mill kook physics. If you think it really explains this situation, perhaps you'd like to run the numbers and show whether it really does explain the discrepancy. From VM Thu May 17 10:26:49 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["763" "Wednesday" "16" "May" "2001" "03:38:55" "-0600" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "21" "Re: starship-design: unknown force" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 763 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4H0kbV22339 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 16 May 2001 17:46:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4H0kaw22221 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 17:46:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (dialin49.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.49]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA03752 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 18:46:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3B024AAF.E5720399@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3B024207.613F067D@jetnet.ab.ca> <15107.6807.746072.201861@tzadkiel.efn.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu CC: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: Re: starship-design: unknown force Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 03:38:55 -0600 Steve VanDevender wrote: > > Ben Franchuk writes: > > try autodynamics to explain the gravity problem. > > http://www.autodynamics.org/ > > As far as I can tell autodynamics is run-of-the mill kook physics. If > you think it really explains this situation, perhaps you'd like to run > the numbers and show whether it really does explain the discrepancy. Why not just read the PDF file your self. I would post the URL but the site uses #$@! Frames. The magnitude of the error is very small, thus very few people are JUMPING UP AND DOWN claming the END of the world over this! Ben. -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk From VM Thu May 17 10:26:49 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["12667" "Wednesday" "16" "May" "2001" "20:56:52" "EDT" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" nil "260" "Re: starship-design: unknown force" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 12667 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4H0vHb25127 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 16 May 2001 17:57:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo-m09.mx.aol.com (imo-m09.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.164]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4H0vGw25117 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 17:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from STAR1SHIP@aol.com by imo-m09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.10.) id s.fd.65d3fa8 (3974); Wed, 16 May 2001 20:56:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_fd.65d3fa8.28347bd4_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 2594 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com From: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: stevev@efn.org CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: unknown force Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 20:56:52 EDT --part1_fd.65d3fa8.28347bd4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/16/01 5:27:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time, stevev@efn.org writes: > Ben Franchuk writes: > > try autodynamics to explain the gravity problem. > > http://www.autodynamics.org/ > > As far as I can tell autodynamics is run-of-the mill kook physics. If > you think it really explains this situation, perhaps you'd like to run > the numbers and show whether it really does explain the discrepancy. > > > > Gee Steve. Why don't you tell us how you really feel :-) I do not agree with Ben and auto dynamics but they do seem to be more on the ball than the traditional old fashion theories you spout ad naseaum. By the way, how are you coming on competing the incomplete Bohr atom model and adding a gravitational component and explaining how your theory violates universal law of like charges repel and yet remain taught today as a valid theory. Examiners of new theories are of three minds. 1 Skeptic, 2. Objective, 3 Open minded. I discard skeptics as they take the lazy position and will not take the burden of proof supporting their opinion, and I discard the open minded as the last person that wanted me to be open minded wanted to dance with my wife, seems many have the neurotic view to do as the Romans do. Objective examination required of new knowledge means that you own teachings are examined with the same diligence that the new knowledge is. That your beliefs are widely taught and published is not proof of validly. Take you own medicine and explain the gravitational anomaly observed. Tom Atomic Rocket and atomic bomb designs of Tom Jackson My stuff has * prefix *Star Ship Number 1- Bio info http://hometown.aol.com/star1ship/myhomepage/index.html * Transporter Room (Table of site contents) http://members.aol.com/tjac780754/index.htm#TRANSPORT *A Definitive Analysis of Atomic Power- Applied physics http://members.aol.com/tjac780754/indexda.htm * Plasma Rocket Engine- Patent Pending http://members.aol.com/tjac780754/indexb.htm Other Public domain sites related to atomic bomb and rocket designing Summary of Critical Accidents in USAEC, 1945-1970 http://nuketesting.enviroweb.org/accident/critical.htm Shows the experiment methodology to measure the critical mass of radioactive metal disks, cylinder or spheres by stacking 1/2 cubes and 1/2*1/2*1" shapes in rough disk, cylinder or sphere shape by using inert plastic cubes for support and ease of disassembly to find the chosen shapes melting point coined critical mass as a function of isotope, mass and shape. The Radioactive Boy Scout http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/radscout.html How to build working breeder reactor to make bomb grade material from public available sources The Manhattan Project http://www.enviroweb.org/issues/nuketesting/hew/Usa/Med/Med.html No bomb designing here just theoretical physics speculation and released misinformation that can be waded through for the few facts Documentation and Diagrams of the Atomic Bomb http://serendipity.magnet.ch/more/atomic.htm Outlaw labs public domain design with more speculation in theoretical physics based on chain reaction theory Nuclear Weapon Diagrams http://sun00781.dn.net/nuke/hew/Library/Brown/ Good list and graphics of theoretical proposed designs from Manhattan project based on chain reaction theory Building the Bomb on a Budget http://www.cantrip.org/bomb.html To keep your sense of humor How to Make an H-bomb http://www.infinet.com/~dionisio/fun/make-your-own-h-bomb.html More to keep your sense of humor. Advanced Propulsion Concepts http://sec353.jpl.nasa.gov/apc/ Nasa's state of the art in atomic propulsion on the drawing boards Advanced Propulsion Concepts-fission fragment rocket http://sec353.jpl.nasa.gov/apc/Nuclear/10.html NASA's fastest proposal with 1,000,000 for specific impulse Hector Parr's Essays: Time and Quantum Measurement http://www.c-parr.freeserve.co.uk/hcp/quantum.htm Seems Einstein's theoretical physics may have been better than the conventional theoretical physics widely taught in conventional formal classes MILNET: Carey Sublette's Nuclear Weapons FAQ http://www.milnet.com/milnet/nukeweap/Nfaq4.html Carey has not claimed to have designed a bomb but does have some interesting links to public domain speculative designs with a link to CD for sell "Swords of Armageddon". If memory serves. Not reviewed as my work is based on free info available in public domain or free public library. Declassified 1943 bomb design documents http://lib-www.lanl.gov/la-pubs/00349710.pdf Shows why critical mass is not a calculation with incomplete theoretical atomic physics equations of chain reaction speculated on, but requires a direct physical measurement of radioactive metals available. Also included are the disk, cylinder and sphere devices proposed by Einstein with his booster design to obtain yields greater than that available with critical mass upper limit designs by placing subcritical masses of radioactive metal isotopes of 20% or greater purity between primary atomic explosions and the casing walls to so fission and fusion from the inserts at higher than conventional chemical mass impact velocities to give the required inertia or momentum of impact shock waves on disk faces, cylinder center line and sphere center to enable the pyrophoretic properties of radioactive metals by impact found by accident again by the radioactive boyscout above when he hammered on the stuff with a screwdiver and in and another 40's critical mass accident (above link) when a metal brick was dropped on a sub critical mass. --part1_fd.65d3fa8.28347bd4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/16/01 5:27:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time, stevev@efn.org
writes:


Ben Franchuk writes:
> try autodynamics to explain the gravity problem.
> http://www.autodynamics.org/

As far as I can tell autodynamics is run-of-the mill kook physics.  If
you think it really explains this situation, perhaps you'd like to run
the numbers and show whether it really does explain the discrepancy.





Gee Steve. Why don't you tell us how you really feel :-) I do not agree with
Ben and auto dynamics but they do seem to be more on the ball than the
traditional old fashion theories you spout ad naseaum. By the way, how are
you coming on competing the incomplete Bohr atom model and adding a
gravitational component and explaining how your theory violates universal law
of like charges repel and yet remain taught today as a valid theory.

Examiners of new theories are of three minds. 1 Skeptic, 2. Objective, 3 Open
minded.  I discard skeptics as they take the lazy position and will not take
the burden of proof supporting their opinion, and I discard the open minded
as the last person that wanted me to be open minded wanted to dance with my
wife, seems many have the neurotic view to do as the Romans do. Objective
examination required of new knowledge means that you own teachings are
examined with the same diligence that the new knowledge is. That your beliefs
are widely taught and published is not proof of validly. Take you own
medicine and explain the gravitational anomaly observed.

Tom

Atomic Rocket and atomic bomb designs of Tom Jackson
My stuff has * prefix
*Star Ship Number 1- Bio info
http://hometown.aol.com/star1ship/myhomepage/index.html
* Transporter Room (Table of site contents)
http://members.aol.com/tjac780754/index.htm#TRANSPORT
*A Definitive Analysis of Atomic Power- Applied physics
http://members.aol.com/tjac780754/indexda.htm
* Plasma Rocket Engine- Patent Pending
http://members.aol.com/tjac780754/indexb.htm

Other Public domain sites related to atomic bomb and rocket designing
Summary of Critical Accidents in USAEC, 1945-1970
http://nuketesting.enviroweb.org/accident/critical.htm
 Shows the experiment methodology to measure the critical mass of
radioactive metal disks, cylinder or spheres by stacking 1/2 cubes and
1/2*1/2*1" shapes in rough disk, cylinder or sphere shape by using inert
plastic cubes for support and ease of disassembly to find the chosen shapes
melting point coined critical mass as a function of isotope, mass and shape.  

The Radioactive Boy Scout
 http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/radscout.html
 How to build working breeder reactor to make bomb grade material from
 public available sources

The Manhattan Project
http://www.enviroweb.org/issues/nuketesting/hew/Usa/Med/Med.html
 No bomb designing here just theoretical physics speculation and released
misinformation that can be waded through for the few facts

Documentation and Diagrams of the Atomic Bomb
http://serendipity.magnet.ch/more/atomic.htm
 Outlaw labs public domain design with
 more speculation in theoretical physics based on chain reaction theory

Nuclear Weapon Diagrams
http://sun00781.dn.net/nuke/hew/Library/Brown/
  Good list and graphics of theoretical proposed designs from Manhattan
project based on chain reaction theory

Building the Bomb on a Budget
http://www.cantrip.org/bomb.html
    To keep your sense of humor

How to Make an H-bomb
http://www.infinet.com/~dionisio/fun/make-your-own-h-bomb.html
    More to keep your sense of humor.

Advanced Propulsion Concepts
http://sec353.jpl.nasa.gov/apc/
    Nasa's state of the art in atomic propulsion on the drawing boards

Advanced Propulsion Concepts-fission fragment rocket
http://sec353.jpl.nasa.gov/apc/Nuclear/10.html
    NASA's fastest proposal with 1,000,000 for specific impulse

Hector Parr's Essays: Time and Quantum Measurement
http://www.c-parr.freeserve.co.uk/hcp/quantum.htm
   Seems Einstein's theoretical physics may have been better than the
conventional
   theoretical physics widely taught in conventional formal classes

MILNET: Carey Sublette's Nuclear Weapons FAQ
http://www.milnet.com/milnet/nukeweap/Nfaq4.html
   Carey has not claimed to have designed a bomb but does have some
interesting
   links to public domain speculative designs with a link to CD for sell
"Swords of Armageddon".
   If memory serves. Not reviewed as my work is based on free info available
in public domain or free public library.

Declassified 1943 bomb design documents
http://lib-www.lanl.gov/la-pubs/00349710.pdf
  Shows why critical mass is not a calculation with incomplete theoretical
atomic physics equations of chain reaction speculated on, but requires a
direct physical measurement of radioactive metals available. Also included
are the disk, cylinder and sphere devices proposed by Einstein with his
booster design to obtain yields greater than that available with critical
mass upper limit designs by placing subcritical masses of radioactive metal
isotopes of 20% or greater purity between primary atomic explosions and the
casing walls to so fission and fusion from the inserts at higher than
conventional chemical mass impact velocities to give the required inertia or
momentum of impact shock waves on disk faces, cylinder center line and sphere
center to enable the pyrophoretic properties of radioactive metals by impact
found by accident again by the radioactive boyscout  above when he hammered
on the stuff with a screwdiver and in and another 40's critical mass accident
(above link) when a metal brick was dropped on a sub critical mass.   

--part1_fd.65d3fa8.28347bd4_boundary-- From VM Thu May 17 10:26:49 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5846" "Wednesday" "16" "May" "2001" "23:25:00" "EDT" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" nil "132" "Re: starship-design: unknown force" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 5846 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4H3Pjw06002 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 16 May 2001 20:25:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo-m02.mx.aol.com (imo-m02.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4H3Piw05996 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 20:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from STAR1SHIP@aol.com by imo-m02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.10.) id z.86.aab8626 (3974); Wed, 16 May 2001 23:25:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <86.aab8626.28349e8c@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_86.aab8626.28349e8c_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 2594 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com From: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: unknown force Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 23:25:00 EDT --part1_86.aab8626.28349e8c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/16/01 6:14:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca writes: > > STAR1SHIP@aol.com wrote: > > > > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > > Encoding: 7bit > > Arg !!! The dreaded plain text file! > The strange thing is that Autodynamics was developed to > explain radioactive decay that SR could not do. With all > the ATOMIC materal listed above one would think a theory that > COULD explain radioactive decay better would be useful. > Ben. > PS. I wish NASA would spend more time on a useable transport > into space rather than all the PAPERS on everything but space > transport into low orbit. > Also why is it that RUSSIA had the first space tourist? > > -- > "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... > We borrow it from our children." > "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk > > > Thanks for reply Ben. Did my long text not come through? It showed on my copy from starship design lists but i did not write--> >STAR1SHIP@aol.com wrote: > > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: 7bit Whats up, could my post of been two long for kellys mailer. In short what i did write was ----- Gee Steve. Why don't you tell us how you really feel :-) I do not agree with Ben and auto dynamics but they do seem to be more on the ball than the traditional old fashion theories you spout ad naseaum. By the way, how are you coming on competing the incomplete Bohr atom model and adding a gravitational component and explaining how your theory violates universal law of like charges repel and yet remain taught today as a valid theory. Examiners of new theories are of three minds. 1 Skeptic, 2. Objective, 3 Open minded. I discard skeptics as they take the lazy position and will not take the burden of proof supporting their opinion, and I discard the open minded as the last person that wanted me to be open minded wanted to dance with my wife, seems many have the neurotic view to do as the Romans do. Objective examination required of new knowledge means that you own teachings are examined with the same diligence that the new knowledge is. That your beliefs are widely taught and published is not proof of validly. Take you own medicine and explain the gravitational anomaly observed. Tom and a bunch of links --part1_86.aab8626.28349e8c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/16/01 6:14:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca writes:



STAR1SHIP@aol.com wrote:
>
>    Part 1.1    Type: Plain Text (text/plain)
>            Encoding: 7bit

Arg !!! The dreaded plain text file!
The strange thing is that Autodynamics was developed to
explain radioactive decay that SR could not do. With all
the ATOMIC materal listed above one would think a theory that
COULD explain radioactive decay better would be useful.
Ben.
PS. I wish NASA would spend more time on a useable transport
into space rather than all the PAPERS on everything but space
transport into low orbit.
Also why is it that RUSSIA had the first space tourist?

--
"We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents...
We borrow it from our children."
"Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk




Thanks for reply Ben. Did my long text not come through? It showed on my copy
from starship design lists  but i did not write-->
>STAR1SHIP@aol.com wrote:
>
>    Part 1.1    Type: Plain Text (text/plain)
>            Encoding: 7bit

Whats up, could my post of been two long for kellys mailer.
In short what i did write was -----


Gee Steve. Why don't you tell us how you really feel :-) I do not agree with
Ben and auto dynamics but they do seem to be more on the ball than the
traditional old fashion theories you spout ad naseaum. By the way, how are
you coming on competing the incomplete Bohr atom model and adding a
gravitational component and explaining how your theory violates universal law
of like charges repel and yet remain taught today as a valid theory.

Examiners of new theories are of three minds. 1 Skeptic, 2. Objective, 3 Open
minded. I discard skeptics as they take the lazy position and will not take
the burden of proof supporting their opinion, and I discard the open minded
as the last person that wanted me to be open minded wanted to dance with my
wife, seems many have the neurotic view to do as the Romans do. Objective
examination required of new knowledge means that you own teachings are
examined with the same diligence that the new knowledge is. That your beliefs
are widely taught and published is not proof of validly. Take you own
medicine and explain the gravitational anomaly observed.

Tom

and a bunch of links --part1_86.aab8626.28349e8c_boundary-- From VM Thu May 17 10:26:49 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["471" "Wednesday" "16" "May" "2001" "22:59:22" "-0500" "Gene & James Marlin" "rmarlin@network-one.com" nil "11" "starship-design: Re: Mystery force tugs " "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 471 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4H3xx414640 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 16 May 2001 20:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.bignetsouth.net (mail.ayrix.net [64.49.1.26]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4H3xvw14608 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 20:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from y4c7d6 ([64.49.6.76]) by mail.bignetsouth.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-57710U53000L800S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 00:07:59 -0400 Message-ID: <001a01c0de85$c6205c00$4c063140@y4c7d6> References: <96.1455b238.28346c5e@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rmarlin@network-one.com (Gene & James Marlin) From: rmarlin@network-one.com (Gene & James Marlin) Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Subject: starship-design: Re: Mystery force tugs Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 22:59:22 -0500 This "news" is getting to be two or three years old now, and yet it still circulates. The solution was found a long time ago- IR photon pressure from the RTG power supplies aboard all four probes causes the (extremely minute) deltaV. After many years of flight, that minute deltaV becomes readily detectable. I'm very surprised this made it to the list. Now, what is this about rewriting physics on four data points that are not readily reproducible? Really now. -Gene From VM Thu May 17 10:26:49 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["743" "Wednesday" "16" "May" "2001" "07:04:23" "-0600" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "20" "Re: starship-design: Re: Mystery force tugs" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 743 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4H4C5S17003 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 16 May 2001 21:12:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4H4C2w16994 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 21:12:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (dialin56.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.56]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA08852 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 22:11:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3B027AD7.36277621@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <96.1455b238.28346c5e@aol.com> <001a01c0de85$c6205c00$4c063140@y4c7d6> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Mystery force tugs Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 07:04:23 -0600 Gene & James Marlin wrote: > > This "news" is getting to be two or three years old now, and yet it still > circulates. The solution was found a long time ago- IR photon pressure from > the RTG power supplies aboard all four probes causes the (extremely minute) > deltaV. After many years of flight, that minute deltaV becomes readily > detectable. I don't buy that idea, with out more details. > I'm very surprised this made it to the list. Now, what is this about > rewriting physics on four data points that are not readily reproducible? > Really now. > > -Gene -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk From VM Thu May 17 13:39:49 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1180" "Thursday" "17" "May" "2001" "13:17:52" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "26" "Re: starship-design: Re: Mystery force tugs" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1180 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4HKIjE04425 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:18:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4HKIiw04415 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [206.163.182.194]) by clavin.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4HKIgf19809 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:18:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4HKHs805160; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:17:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15108.12784.990223.261001@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <3B027AD7.36277621@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <96.1455b238.28346c5e@aol.com> <001a01c0de85$c6205c00$4c063140@y4c7d6> <3B027AD7.36277621@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: VM 6.92 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Mystery force tugs Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 13:17:52 -0700 Ben Franchuk writes: > Gene & James Marlin wrote: > > This "news" is getting to be two or three years old now, and yet it still > > circulates. The solution was found a long time ago- IR photon pressure from > > the RTG power supplies aboard all four probes causes the (extremely minute) > > deltaV. After many years of flight, that minute deltaV becomes readily > > detectable. > > I don't buy that idea, with out more details. Well, I don't buy your idea without more details either. If you claim to be so familiar with autodynamics and that it explains the discrepancy, why don't you just describe how? It makes a lot more sense to me that the discrepancy results from an overlooked known physical effect than that it's proof for an untested and unconventional physical theory. I would like to see a more detailed description of how the infrared radiation from the RTGs on those probes would account for the velocity discrepancy, but it's not a physically untenable explanation on the surface. > > I'm very surprised this made it to the list. Now, what is this about > > rewriting physics on four data points that are not readily reproducible? > > Really now. From VM Thu May 17 14:01:24 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1391" "Wednesday" "16" "May" "2001" "14:38:12" "-0600" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "32" "Re: starship-design: Re: Mystery force tugs" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1391 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4HKrwd21554 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4HKruw21539 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (dialin45.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.45]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA12264 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 14:53:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3B02E534.51470B50@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <96.1455b238.28346c5e@aol.com> <001a01c0de85$c6205c00$4c063140@y4c7d6> <3B027AD7.36277621@jetnet.ab.ca> <15108.12784.990223.261001@tzadkiel.efn.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Mystery force tugs Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:38:12 -0600 Steve VanDevender wrote: > Well, I don't buy your idea without more details either. If you claim > to be so familiar with autodynamics and that it explains the > discrepancy, why don't you just describe how? I gave you the link,so the author can discribe it better than I can. Since I can't READ the paper on the IR solution I wish not to comment on it, other than the thrust if is from the RTG's should be getting smaller as the RTG's cool. > It makes a lot more sense to me that the discrepancy results from an > overlooked known physical effect than that it's proof for an untested > and unconventional physical theory. A discrepancy in any theory is a sign that the theory needs revising. So far all the theories I have read about gravity before Autodynamics and gravity was a lot of hand waving and mumbo-jumbo. You can't point to a object and say -- you cause gravity --. Gravity is one subject not very much R&D money is spent on today. . > > > > I'm very surprised this made it to the list. Now, what is this about > > > rewriting physics on four data points that are not readily reproducible? > > > Really now. I say only 1 point is needed -- the point in space where the BIG BANG happened. Ben. -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk From VM Fri May 18 10:05:26 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2228" "Thursday" "17" "May" "2001" "23:21:09" "-0500" "Gene & James Marlin" "rmarlin@network-one.com" nil "51" "starship-design: Re: Mystery force tugs" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2228 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4I4LPZ13065 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 17 May 2001 21:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.bignetsouth.net (mail.ayrix.net [64.49.1.26]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4I4LOw13059 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 21:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from y4c7d6 ([64.49.6.26]) by mail.bignetsouth.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-57710U53000L800S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 00:29:46 -0400 Message-ID: <002301c0df51$f7bede40$1a063140@y4c7d6> References: <96.1455b238.28346c5e@aol.com> <001a01c0de85$c6205c00$4c063140@y4c7d6> <3B027AD7.36277621@jetnet.ab.ca> <15108.12784.990223.261001@tzadkiel.efn.org> <3B02E534.51470B50@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rmarlin@network-one.com (Gene & James Marlin) From: rmarlin@network-one.com (Gene & James Marlin) Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Subject: starship-design: Re: Mystery force tugs Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 23:21:09 -0500 > I gave you the link,so the author can discribe it better than I can. > Since I can't READ the paper on the IR solution I wish not to >comment > on it, Anderson's original publication is in the Oct 5 98 Physical Review Letters. Other physicists (like Katz of Washington University, St. Louis) point out that radiation pressure from the RTGs on those craft are perfectly adequate to account for the pressure (noted in S&T, Jan. 1999). Anderson himself believes the error is internal to the spacecraft, and *not* a problem with physics, pointing out that Earth and Mars do not display a similar solar force but the relatively nearbly Ulysses spacecraft does, therefore, whatever it is is specific to the spacecraft. And no, Ben, there is no "url" you can go to to find the above, you'll just have to use a library. The actual acceleration itself is constant at about 8.5exp-8 cm/s^2; the very fact that it is constant is inconsistent with the increasing distance to the Sun for Pioneer 10 and 11 between 1998 and the point it was first detected in 1980 would indicate that it is not a force related to Sun, but only a consequence of the spacecraft design, such as a constant radiation pressure. There may be other forms of acceleration or drag peculiar to the spacecraft that are causing the error, but Kratz tends to think it was IR radiation pressure and Occam's Razor is on his side. Nobody in the physics community seems willing to suggest that it is anything but an anomaly restricted to certain spacecraft. Anderson himself admitted that he feels it has an internal cause in his publication in Physical Review. As for Ben's commentary about RTG's getting cooler, the halflife of Pu 238 is 87.75 years; it will not change that much over twenty years, the greatest delta being distance to the Sun. Now, why aren't Voyager 1 and 2, as well as every planetary body in the Solar System perturbed by the same "force" if it is a problem with physics? The problem here is that nobody likes a mundane explanation, because a good one destroys blind speculation. I've noticed that a few members of the Starship Design list have recently commented that they prefer blind speculation and don't like skeptics. Oh well. -Gene From VM Fri May 18 16:37:02 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["471" "Friday" "18" "May" "2001" "18:39:08" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "16" "Re: starship-design: Re: Mystery force tugs" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 471 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4IMdIQ28147 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 May 2001 15:39:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo-m04.mx.aol.com (imo-m04.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.7]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4IMdGw28133 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 15:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.10.) id z.a6.14452b9f (18406) for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 18:39:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Mystery force tugs Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 18:39:08 EDT In a message dated 5/16/01 11:00:54 PM, rmarlin@network-one.com writes: >This "news" is getting to be two or three years old now, and yet it still > >circulates. The solution was found a long time ago- IR photon pressure >from > >the RTG power supplies aboard all four probes causes the (extremely minute) > >deltaV. After many years of flight, that minute deltaV becomes readily > >detectable. How can thermal emmiters hung off to the side, push the ships backward? From VM Fri May 18 16:54:30 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["891" "Friday" "18" "May" "2001" "16:44:13" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "23" "Re: starship-design: Re: Mystery force tugs" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 891 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4INj0924782 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 May 2001 16:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4INiww24772 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 16:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [206.163.182.194]) by clavin.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4INivf09476 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 16:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4INiFO09580; Fri, 18 May 2001 16:44:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15109.46029.196379.924826@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.92 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Mystery force tugs Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 16:44:13 -0700 KellySt@aol.com writes: > In a message dated 5/16/01 11:00:54 PM, rmarlin@network-one.com writes: > > >This "news" is getting to be two or three years old now, and yet it still > > > >circulates. The solution was found a long time ago- IR photon pressure > >from > > > >the RTG power supplies aboard all four probes causes the (extremely minute) > > > >deltaV. After many years of flight, that minute deltaV becomes readily > > > >detectable. > > > How can thermal emmiters hung off to the side, push the ships backward? If the thermal radiation from the RTGs is not emitted equally in all directions, then it would produce a net thrust opposite the direction it is emitted most strongly. There are a variety of ways this could happen, such as an asymmetrical temperature distribution in the RTGs themselves or the RTGs being obscured behind some part of the spacecraft. From VM Fri May 18 17:54:56 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["669" "Friday" "18" "May" "2001" "19:06:25" "-0500" "Gene & James Marlin" "rmarlin@network-one.com" nil "16" "Re: starship-design: Re: Mystery force tugs" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 669 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4J06WM02891 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 May 2001 17:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.bignetsouth.net (mail.ayrix.net [64.49.1.26]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4J06Vw02885 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 17:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from y4c7d6 ([64.49.6.52]) by mail.bignetsouth.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-57710U53000L800S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 20:14:59 -0400 Message-ID: <000d01c0dff7$8c262480$34063140@y4c7d6> References: <15109.46029.196379.924826@tzadkiel.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rmarlin@network-one.com (Gene & James Marlin) From: rmarlin@network-one.com (Gene & James Marlin) Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Mystery force tugs Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 19:06:25 -0500 > There are a variety of ways this could > happen, such as an asymmetrical temperature distribution in the RTGs > themselves or the RTGs being obscured behind some part of the > spacecraft. Spacecraft themselves are so asymmetrical it would be difficult to predict the effect of such a vector force not designed into the probe. I also wonder if magnetohydrodynamic drag can effect long-term missions. My problem with citing unknown physics as the cause is not in the strength of any particular explanation, it is the apparent lack of the effect occuring equally on all bodies, and I wish to remind the readers that the prototype examples are sister missions. -Gene From VM Mon May 21 10:05:26 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1171" "Saturday" "19" "May" "2001" "18:52:36" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "33" "Re: starship-design: Re: Mystery force tugs" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1171 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4JMqmr01005 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 19 May 2001 15:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo-m01.mx.aol.com (imo-m01.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.4]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4JMqlw00999 for ; Sat, 19 May 2001 15:52:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-m01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.10.) id z.7b.14ffeb46 (16485) for ; Sat, 19 May 2001 18:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <7b.14ffeb46.28385334@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Mystery force tugs Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 18:52:36 EDT In a message dated 5/18/01 6:45:59 PM, stevev@efn.org writes: >KellySt@aol.com writes: > > In a message dated 5/16/01 11:00:54 PM, rmarlin@network-one.com writes: > > > > >This "news" is getting to be two or three years old now, and yet it >still > > > > > >circulates. The solution was found a long time ago- IR photon pressure > > >from > > > > > >the RTG power supplies aboard all four probes causes the (extremely >minute) > > > > > >deltaV. After many years of flight, that minute deltaV becomes readily > > > > > >detectable. > > > > > > How can thermal emmiters hung off to the side, push the ships backward? > >If the thermal radiation from the RTGs is not emitted equally in all >directions, then it would produce a net thrust opposite the direction it >is emitted most strongly. There are a variety of ways this could >happen, such as an asymmetrical temperature distribution in the RTGs >themselves or the RTGs being obscured behind some part of the >spacecraft. but the design of the craft has the rtgs out on poles off to one side, with the antenna pointed toward earth. So any thrust would be perpendicular (give or take) to the vector to earth. From VM Mon May 21 10:05:26 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["756" "Saturday" "19" "May" "2001" "18:29:45" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "15" "Re: starship-design: Re: Mystery force tugs" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 756 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4K1UmZ07422 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 19 May 2001 18:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4K1Ulw07353 for ; Sat, 19 May 2001 18:30:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [206.163.182.194]) by clavin.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4K1Ujf09103 for ; Sat, 19 May 2001 18:30:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4K1TvB13069; Sat, 19 May 2001 18:29:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15111.7689.841828.927939@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <7b.14ffeb46.28385334@aol.com> References: <7b.14ffeb46.28385334@aol.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.92 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Mystery force tugs Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 18:29:45 -0700 KellySt@aol.com writes: > but the design of the craft has the rtgs out on poles off to one side, with > the antenna pointed toward earth. So any thrust would be perpendicular (give > or take) to the vector to earth. Not if the thermal distribution of the RTGs themselves is asymmetrical. And it's still just a guess that the RTGs are the source of the discrepancy, although it's fairly clear that whatever causes this discrepancy is instrinsic to the spacecraft, since other solar system objects don't show similar discrepancies. In any case, I'm wondering just what this ever had to do with starship-design's real purpose. Despite clearly stating for years that this list is NOT for discussing speculative physics, some people just don't get it. From VM Mon May 21 10:05:26 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1108" "Saturday" "19" "May" "2001" "19:30:52" "-0600" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "25" "Re: starship-design: Re: Mystery force tugs" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1108 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4K24LW14470 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 19 May 2001 19:04:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4K24Kw14461 for ; Sat, 19 May 2001 19:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (dialin47.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.47]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA10987 for ; Sat, 19 May 2001 20:04:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3B071E4C.44466188@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7b.14ffeb46.28385334@aol.com> <15111.7689.841828.927939@tzadkiel.efn.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Mystery force tugs Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 19:30:52 -0600 Steve VanDevender wrote: > In any case, I'm wondering just what this ever had to do with > starship-design's real purpose. Despite clearly stating for years that > this list is NOT for discussing speculative physics, some people just > don't get it. However Star-ship design does require 'New' ideas as the old ideas like chemical rockets just don't work on a Galaxy Class Starship. You are bound to have lots of speculative physics and technology until somebody builds something. Myself I have a few Ideas for space travel in general but I have not found a usable cad system on my budget.( peanuts) Deep Cold ( Space craft that May have Been ) is good example of space craft modeling that could be adapted to star-ship design. http://www.deepcold.com/deepcold/intro_main.html Then it could be all the people are going after the X-Prize. Ben. PS. Has the star-ship design page been updated recently? I seem to have lost that URL. -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk From VM Mon May 21 10:05:26 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["286" "Saturday" "19" "May" "2001" "19:50:42" "-0700" "Curtis Manges" "clmanges@yahoo.com" nil "15" "starship-design: rtg" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 286 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4K2oho24748 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 19 May 2001 19:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web13609.mail.yahoo.com (web13609.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.9]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with SMTP id f4K2ogw24737 for ; Sat, 19 May 2001 19:50:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20010520025042.85784.qmail@web13609.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.148.95.35] by web13609.mail.yahoo.com; Sat, 19 May 2001 19:50:42 PDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Curtis Manges From: Curtis Manges Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design Subject: starship-design: rtg Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 19:50:42 -0700 (PDT) Hello, all, Pardon my ignorance, but what's an RTG? Keep looking up, Curtis ===== visit my website at: www.geocities.com/clmanges __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From VM Mon May 21 10:05:26 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1215" "Sunday" "20" "May" "2001" "00:36:24" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "22" "Re: starship-design: Re: Mystery force tugs" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1215 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4K7bJ921523 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 20 May 2001 00:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4K7bIw21518 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 00:37:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [206.163.182.194]) by clavin.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4K7bHf09792 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 00:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4K7aWE13768; Sun, 20 May 2001 00:36:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15111.29688.73828.516933@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <3B071E4C.44466188@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <7b.14ffeb46.28385334@aol.com> <15111.7689.841828.927939@tzadkiel.efn.org> <3B071E4C.44466188@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: VM 6.92 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Mystery force tugs Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 00:36:24 -0700 Ben Franchuk writes: > Steve VanDevender wrote: > > In any case, I'm wondering just what this ever had to do with > > starship-design's real purpose. Despite clearly stating for years that > > this list is NOT for discussing speculative physics, some people just > > don't get it. > > However Star-ship design does require 'New' ideas as > the old ideas like chemical rockets just don't work on a Galaxy Class > Starship. You are bound to have lots of speculative physics and technology > until somebody builds something. There's a difference between speculative physics and speculative technology. We know that matter can reach relativistic speeds, although we don't have the technology to make large objects do so. We know that antimatter exists, even though we don't have the technology to manufacture and store large quantities of it. It's possible to characterize a technology to achieve something physically possible based on those physical limits, even if we don't currently know how to build that technology. Conversely, there is nothing in our current understanding of physics that suggests FTL transport of matter is possible, and certainly no experimental demonstration of such a thing. From VM Mon May 21 10:05:26 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["882" "Sunday" "20" "May" "2001" "00:49:14" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "15" "starship-design: rtg" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 882 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4K7o2F23655 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 20 May 2001 00:50:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4K7o0w23636 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 00:50:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [206.163.182.194]) by clavin.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4K7nxf10653 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 00:49:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4K7nFB13809; Sun, 20 May 2001 00:49:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15111.30458.149383.228001@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <20010520025042.85784.qmail@web13609.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20010520025042.85784.qmail@web13609.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.92 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: rtg Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 00:49:14 -0700 Curtis Manges writes: > Pardon my ignorance, but what's an RTG? A Radioisotope Thermal Generator. It's basically a quantity of radioactive material that generates heat, which is converted to electrical energy by a thermocouple. They're long-lasting and have no moving parts, making them very useful as power sources for long-duration outer-solar-system space probes. They've also been somewhat controversial, as generally the radioactive material used in RTGs is plutonium (a fairly active radioisotope is needed so that it will produce enough heat). Despite substantial care being taken in building RTG casings so that they will survive any likely launch accident, and the plutonium contained in a durable ceramic material, there have been protests surrounding the launches of the Galileo and Cassini spacecraft due to them carrying RTGs with tens of kilograms of plutonium. From VM Mon May 21 10:05:26 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["263" "Sunday" "20" "May" "2001" "15:56:43" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "11" "Re: starship-design: rtg" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 263 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4KJuvv04500 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 20 May 2001 12:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo-m06.mx.aol.com (imo-m06.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.161]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4KJutw04489 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 12:56:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.10.) id r.36.16336a86 (4395); Sun, 20 May 2001 15:56:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <36.16336a86.28397b7b@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: clmanges@yahoo.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: rtg Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 15:56:43 EDT In a message dated 5/19/01 9:51:25 PM, clmanges@yahoo.com writes: >Hello, all, > >Pardon my ignorance, but what's an RTG? Radioisotop thermal generator. Basically a thermo-electric generator system powered by a core of a radioactive material producing heat. From VM Tue May 22 11:28:02 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["7497" "Monday" "21" "May" "2001" "16:40:48" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "175" "starship-design: Puzzling hyper-gravity proves weighty mystery" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 7497 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f4MIKJR06157 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:20:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@gnt.com [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4MIKIw06130 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:20:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from broadsword (p463.gnt.com [204.49.91.79]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id QAA20936 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 16:42:30 -0500 Message-ID: <000901c0e23e$b51cb0e0$0100a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0E214.CC46A8E0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design \(E-mail\)" Subject: starship-design: Puzzling hyper-gravity proves weighty mystery Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 16:40:48 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0E214.CC46A8E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Let's heat this discussion back up . Puzzling hyper-gravity proves weighty mystery May 21, 2001 Posted: 2:32 p.m. EDT (1832 GMT) By Richard Stenger, CNN (CNN) -- An unknown force seeming to pull on a pair of distant space probes has left astronomers with a weighty mystery, one that appears to defy the conventional laws of physics. The Pioneer 10 and Pioneer 11 spacecraft, which for decades have steadily traveled in opposite directions in the solar system, have covered significantly less space then they should have, astronomers said. A team of NASA researchers has systematically attempted to determine what has slowed the sibling NASA robot ships, to no avail. "Something is slowing down the spacecraft. And we have not been successful in finding the source of that. There is more slowing than you would expect from Newtonian gravity," said John Anderson, a senior scientist at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California. Mystery force a real drag The probes have traveled far beyond Jupiter since their launch in the early 1970s. But astronomers have been able to measure with great precision the trajectories and distances of the pair. Noticing that Pioneer 10 was unexpectedly lagging on its journey away from the sun, they speculated that an unknown object could been exerting an influence. But they had to revise that theory when they realized that a mysterious force was acting in an identical manner on Pioneer 11, which on the other side of the system. "It's the same magnitude and the same direction, namely pointed toward the sun. The force points to the sun in both cases," said Anderson. Astronomers studied the Doppler shift of the radio signals to help calculate the distances of the probes. After extensive analysis, they dismissed instrumentation error, propellant leaks and minor heat emissions as causes of the negative thrust. Perhaps the spacecraft inadvertently produced an unknown force that is not yet understood, Anderson said. Perhaps scientists will have to reconsider basic assumptions about the laws of physics. "No one has come up with a conventional explanation," he said. One possible reason "is that it is a modification of gravity." Pioneer sends shocking signal Launched in the early 1970s, the Pioneers were the first probes to explore the outer solar system, astounding the world when they sent home flyby images of giant planets like Jupiter, Saturn and their moons. The resilient Pioneer 10, now far beyond the orbit of Neptune, surprised astronomers in April when it managed to send a transmission back to Earth as directed. Radio communications with Pioneer 11 ceased in 1995. The scientists were unable to calculate the effects of distant gravity on other deep space probes, like Voyager I or Voyager 2, because they employ a different kind of orientation and propulsion system, Anderson said. Anderson and his colleagues have submitted their work to the journal Physical Review D. Their findings are currently available on the Internet scientific archive site of the Los Alamos National Laboratory. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0E214.CC46A8E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable  Let's heat this = discussion back up=20 <VBG>.

Puzzling=20 hyper-gravity proves weighty mystery
May=20 21, 2001 Posted: 2:32 p.m. EDT (1832 GMT)
By Richard Stenger,=20 CNN

(CNN) -- An unknown force seeming to pull on a pair of = distant space=20 probes has left astronomers with a weighty mystery, one that appears to = defy the=20 conventional laws of physics.

The Pioneer 10 and Pioneer 11 = spacecraft,=20 which for decades have steadily traveled in opposite directions in the = solar=20 system, have covered significantly less space then they should have, = astronomers=20 said.

A team of NASA researchers has systematically attempted to=20 determine what has slowed the sibling NASA robot ships, to no=20 avail.

"Something is slowing down the spacecraft. And we have not = been=20 successful in finding the source of that. There is more slowing than you = would=20 expect from Newtonian gravity," said John Anderson, a senior scientist = at NASA's=20 Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California.

Mystery force a real = drag

The=20 probes have traveled far beyond Jupiter since their launch in the early = 1970s.=20 But astronomers have been able to measure with great precision the = trajectories=20 and distances of the pair.

Noticing that Pioneer 10 was = unexpectedly=20 lagging on its journey away from the sun, they speculated that an = unknown object=20 could been exerting an influence.

But they had to revise that = theory when=20 they realized that a mysterious force was acting in an identical manner = on=20 Pioneer 11, which on the other side of the system.

"It's the same = magnitude and the same direction, namely pointed toward the sun. The = force=20 points to the sun in both cases," said Anderson.

Astronomers = studied the=20 Doppler shift of the radio signals to help calculate the distances of = the=20 probes. After extensive analysis, they dismissed instrumentation error,=20 propellant leaks and minor heat emissions as causes of the negative=20 thrust.

Perhaps the spacecraft inadvertently produced an unknown = force=20 that is not yet understood, Anderson said. Perhaps scientists will have = to=20 reconsider basic assumptions about the laws of physics.

"No one = has come=20 up with a conventional explanation," he said. One possible reason "is = that it is=20 a modification of gravity."

Pioneer sends shocking=20 signal

Launched in the early 1970s, the Pioneers were the = first=20 probes to explore the outer solar system, astounding the world when they = sent=20 home flyby images of giant planets like Jupiter, Saturn and their=20 moons.

The resilient Pioneer 10, now far beyond the orbit of = Neptune,=20 surprised astronomers in April when it managed to send a transmission = back to=20 Earth as directed. Radio communications with Pioneer 11 ceased in=20 1995.

The scientists were unable to calculate the effects of = distant=20 gravity on other deep space probes, like Voyager I or Voyager 2, because = they=20 employ a different kind of orientation and propulsion system, Anderson=20 said.

Anderson and his colleagues have submitted their work to = the=20 journal Physical Review D. Their findings are currently available on the = Internet scientific archive site of the Los Alamos National=20 Laboratory.

 

 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0E214.CC46A8E0-- From VM Thu Jun 21 15:04:26 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["15499" "Thursday" "21" "June" "2001" "16:05:09" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "350" "starship-design: Solar Windsurfing: The Fastest-Ever Propulsion (So Far)" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 15499 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f5LLGEs15300 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 14:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@gnt.com [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f5LLGCx15189 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 14:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from broadsword (p467.gnt.com [204.49.91.83]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id QAA20664 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:15:36 -0500 Message-ID: <000f01c0fa97$087a6aa0$0100a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C0FA6D.1FA462A0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design \(E-mail\)" Subject: starship-design: Solar Windsurfing: The Fastest-Ever Propulsion (So Far) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:05:09 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C0FA6D.1FA462A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0011_01C0FA6D.1FA462A0" ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C0FA6D.1FA462A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Solar Windsurfing: The Fastest-Ever Propulsion By Robin Lloyd Science Editor posted: 10:50 am ET 21 June 2001 A technology that uses a magnetic balloon to sail ionized particles shed by the Sun could speed humans to the Jovian moons in less than two years and push a probe past Voyager 1 to become the first spacecraft beyond our Solar System. The low-cost Mini-Magnetosphere Plasma Propulsion, or M2P2, propels spacecraft at speeds far greater than today's chemical and even ion propulsion systems, and its magnetic-field sail would even protect travelers from deadly solar and Jovian radiation. "The technology seeks to do what space does -- deploy a magnetized sail to travel with the winds," says University of Washington scientist Robert Winglee, who came up with the idea after 10 years as a geophysicist studying Earth inside and out to its radiation environment. The Sun is constantly shedding high-speed particles, called the solar wind, that race out from it at speeds averaging 800,000 mph (400 km/sec). If M2P2 were used for a mission to the Jovian moon Europa, it would take only 1.5 years to arrive. Using conventional chemical propulsion, such a trip could take 5 years. Other technologies also are designed to sail the solar wind, but they rely on a lightweight material that could be penetrated by meteors. Winglee's magnetic fields would operate unperturbed by meteors. How it works The M2P2 sail starts with an eight-inch magnet that creates a tiny magnetic field. That field is expanded like a balloon by filling it with an inert gas split into electrons and ionized particles. That superheated gas, called plasma, then is amped up by a solenoid that acts as a switch to create a larger magnetic field. The magnetic "balloon" eventually can inflate around a spacecraft to create magnetic field lines reaching as far as 25 miles (40 kilometers) across. The solar wind then "blows" against the large bubble to propel the spacecraft, with the sail acting like an umbrella braced against a bad storm. Only in this case, the umbrella loses and the spacecraft can put away up to 4.3 million miles a day. The system can make a craft travel at speeds 10 times as fast as the space shuttle, up to 180,000 mph (50 km/sec). At that rate, an M2P2 spacecraft could catch up with Voyager 1, currently the furthest man-made object in space at 7.5 billion miles (12 billion kilometers) from Earth, before it reaches the edge of the Solar System. Honors and the new millennium Winglee was honored this month by Discover Magazine for his aerospace innovation, along with seven other inventors. SPACE.com Founder Lou Dobbs introduced Winglee at the ceremony, saying, "This technology may enable us to establish a permanent presence in space, something existing technologies will not allow us to do." There are hopes that M2P2 soon will be used on a couple smaller experiments or even missions in NASA's New Millennium Program, which focuses on speeding up space exploration by validating new technologies in flight. The tech readiness scale Hoppy Price, manager of solar sail tech development at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, sits on a committee that evaluates technology proposals for New Millennium missions. "It's a neat concept," he said of M2P2. "It has a lot of potential but it's also very early in the research phase." "Most of the solar sail technologies we are looking at now are at tech readiness level four, which means we have some laboratory demonstrations of the technology," he said. M2P2 is at a lower level of readiness for the moment, he said, although fast development of prototypes and testing could make it available for use in some of the approaching New Millennium missions, such as Space Technology 7. ------=_NextPart_001_0011_01C0FA6D.1FA462A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Solar = Windsurfing: The=20 Fastest-Ever Propulsion

By Robin Lloyd
Science=20 Editor
posted:=20 10:50 am ET
21 June 2001		  

A technology that uses a magnetic balloon to sail ionized particles shed by the=20 Sun could speed = humans to the=20 Jovian moons in less than two years and push a probe past Voyager = 1 to=20 become the first spacecraft beyond our Solar System.

The low-cost Mini-Magnetosphere Plasma Propulsion, or M2P2, = propels=20 spacecraft at speeds far greater than today's chemical and even = ion=20 propulsion systems, and its magnetic-field sail would even protect = travelers from deadly solar and Jovian radiation.

"The technology seeks to do what space does -- deploy a = magnetized sail=20 to travel with the winds," says University of Washington scientist = Robert=20 Winglee, who came up with the idea after 10 years as a = geophysicist=20 studying Earth inside and out to its radiation environment. The = Sun is=20 constantly shedding high-speed particles, called the solar wind, = that race=20 out from it at speeds averaging 800,000 mph (400 km/sec).

If M2P2 were used for a mission to the Jovian moon Europa, it would take only 1.5 years to arrive. Using = conventional=20 chemical propulsion, such a trip could take 5 years.

Other technologies also are designed to sail the = solar wind, but=20 they rely on a lightweight material that could be penetrated by = meteors.=20 Winglee's magnetic fields would operate unperturbed by meteors. =

How it works

The M2P2 sail starts with an eight-inch magnet that creates a = tiny=20 magnetic field. That field is expanded like a balloon by filling = it with=20 an inert gas split into electrons and ionized particles. That = superheated=20 gas, called plasma, then is amped up by a solenoid that acts as a = switch=20 to create a larger magnetic field.

The magnetic "balloon" eventually can inflate around a = spacecraft to=20 create magnetic field lines reaching as far as 25 miles (40 = kilometers)=20 across. The solar wind then "blows" against the large bubble to = propel the=20 spacecraft, with the sail acting like an umbrella braced against a = bad=20 storm. Only in this case, the umbrella loses and the spacecraft = can put=20 away up to 4.3 million miles a day.

The system can make a craft travel at speeds 10 times as fast = as the=20 space shuttle, up to 180,000 mph (50 km/sec). At that rate, an = M2P2=20 spacecraft could catch up with Voyager 1, currently the furthest = man-made=20 object in space at 7.5 billion miles (12 billion kilometers) from = Earth,=20 before it reaches the edge of the Solar System.

Honors and the new millennium

Winglee was honored this month by Discover Magazine for his = aerospace=20 innovation, along with seven other inventors.

SPACE.com Founder Lou Dobbs introduced Winglee at the ceremony, = saying,=20 "This technology may enable us to establish a permanent presence = in space,=20 something existing technologies will not allow us to do."

There are hopes that M2P2 soon will be used on a couple smaller = experiments or even missions in NASA's New Millennium Program, which focuses on speeding up space exploration by = validating new=20 technologies in flight.

The tech readiness scale

Hoppy Price, manager of solar sail tech development at NASA's = Jet=20 Propulsion Laboratory, sits on a committee that evaluates = technology=20 proposals for New Millennium missions.

"It's a neat concept," he said of M2P2. "It has a lot of = potential but=20 it's also very early in the research phase."

"Most of the solar sail technologies we are looking at now are = at tech=20 readiness level four, which means we have some laboratory = demonstrations=20 of the technology," he said. M2P2 is at a lower level of readiness = for the=20 moment, he said, although fast development of prototypes and = testing could=20 make it available for use in some of the approaching New = Millennium=20 missions, such as Space Technology 7.

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Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:17:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f5LMHWx13585 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (dialin40.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.40]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA23939 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:17:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3B30BCCE.9425756C@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <000f01c0fa97$087a6aa0$0100a8c0@broadsword> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu CC: "Starship-Design (E-mail)" Subject: Re: starship-design: Solar Windsurfing: The Fastest-Ever Propulsion (So Far) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:10:06 -0600 "L. Parker" wrote: { Empty white space } Details would be nice here! From VM Thu Jun 21 16:34:21 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["350" "Thursday" "21" "June" "2001" "15:56:09" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "9" "Re: starship-design: Solar Windsurfing: The Fastest-Ever Propulsion (So Far)" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 350 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f5LMudM29978 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:56:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f5LMucx29968 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [206.163.182.194]) by clavin.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f5LMuaq18874 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:56:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f5LMuCQ04732; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:56:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15154.31625.138179.31740@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <3B30BCCE.9425756C@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <000f01c0fa97$087a6aa0$0100a8c0@broadsword> <3B30BCCE.9425756C@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: VM 6.92 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design (E-mail)" Subject: Re: starship-design: Solar Windsurfing: The Fastest-Ever Propulsion (So Far) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:56:09 -0700 Ben Franchuk writes: > "L. Parker" wrote: > { Empty white space } > Details would be nice here! This is exactly why it's a bad idea to post HTML mail to the list. Lee's message came in as one of those plain-text plus redundant HTML-formatted attachment messages, which many mail readers fail to display. Please don't send HTML mail to the list. From VM Thu Jun 21 16:58:41 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4353" "Thursday" "21" "June" "2001" "18:39:38" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "102" "RE: starship-design: Solar Windsurfing: The Fastest-Ever Propulsion (So Far)" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 4353 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f5LNg5A16991 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@gnt.com [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f5LNg3x16975 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:42:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from broadsword (p467.gnt.com [204.49.91.83]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id SAA13157; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:41:56 -0500 Message-ID: <001f01c0faab$741a82e0$0100a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3B30BCCE.9425756C@jetnet.ab.ca> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "'Ben Franchuk'" Cc: "'Starship-Design \(E-mail\)'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Solar Windsurfing: The Fastest-Ever Propulsion (So Far) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:39:38 -0500 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu > [mailto:owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu]On Behalf Of Ben > Franchuk > Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 10:10 AM > Cc: Starship-Design (E-mail) > Subject: Re: starship-design: Solar Windsurfing: The Fastest-Ever > Propulsion (So Far) > > > "L. Parker" wrote: > { Empty white space } > Details would be nice here! Sorry, the original message went out as HTML which is my default setting. I forgot this list only supports text. For those of you who were not able to read the HTML message here it is again as text... Solar Windsurfing: The Fastest-Ever Propulsion By Robin Lloyd Science Editor posted: 10:50 am ET 21 June 2001 A technology that uses a magnetic balloon to sail ionized particles shed by the Sun could speed humans to the Jovian moons in less than two years and push a probe past Voyager 1 to become the first spacecraft beyond our Solar System. The low-cost Mini-Magnetosphere Plasma Propulsion, or M2P2, propels spacecraft at speeds far greater than today's chemical and even ion propulsion systems, and its magnetic-field sail would even protect travelers from deadly solar and Jovian radiation. "The technology seeks to do what space does -- deploy a magnetized sail to travel with the winds," says University of Washington scientist Robert Winglee, who came up with the idea after 10 years as a geophysicist studying Earth inside and out to its radiation environment. The Sun is constantly shedding high-speed particles, called the solar wind, that race out from it at speeds averaging 800,000 mph (400 km/sec). If M2P2 were used for a mission to the Jovian moon Europa, it would take only 1.5 years to arrive. Using conventional chemical propulsion, such a trip could take 5 years. Other technologies also are designed to sail the solar wind, but they rely on a lightweight material that could be penetrated by meteors. Winglee's magnetic fields would operate unperturbed by meteors. How it works The M2P2 sail starts with an eight-inch magnet that creates a tiny magnetic field. That field is expanded like a balloon by filling it with an inert gas split into electrons and ionized particles. That superheated gas, called plasma, then is amped up by a solenoid that acts as a switch to create a larger magnetic field. The magnetic "balloon" eventually can inflate around a spacecraft to create magnetic field lines reaching as far as 25 miles (40 kilometers) across. The solar wind then "blows" against the large bubble to propel the spacecraft, with the sail acting like an umbrella braced against a bad storm. Only in this case, the umbrella loses and the spacecraft can put away up to 4.3 million miles a day. The system can make a craft travel at speeds 10 times as fast as the space shuttle, up to 180,000 mph (50 km/sec). At that rate, an M2P2 spacecraft could catch up with Voyager 1, currently the furthest man-made object in space at 7.5 billion miles (12 billion kilometers) from Earth, before it reaches the edge of the Solar System. Honors and the new millennium Winglee was honored this month by Discover Magazine for his aerospace innovation, along with seven other inventors. SPACE.com Founder Lou Dobbs introduced Winglee at the ceremony, saying, "This technology may enable us to establish a permanent presence in space, something existing technologies will not allow us to do." There are hopes that M2P2 soon will be used on a couple smaller experiments or even missions in NASA's New Millennium Program, which focuses on speeding up space exploration by validating new technologies in flight. The tech readiness scale Hoppy Price, manager of solar sail tech development at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, sits on a committee that evaluates technology proposals for New Millennium missions. "It's a neat concept," he said of M2P2. "It has a lot of potential but it's also very early in the research phase." "Most of the solar sail technologies we are looking at now are at tech readiness level four, which means we have some laboratory demonstrations of the technology," he said. M2P2 is at a lower level of readiness for the moment, he said, although fast development of prototypes and testing could make it available for use in some of the approaching New Millennium missions, such as Space Technology 7. From VM Thu Jun 21 17:13:31 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["584" "Thursday" "21" "June" "2001" "18:53:40" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "14" "RE: starship-design: Solar Windsurfing: The Fastest-Ever Propulsion (So Far)" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 584 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f5M00hQ22532 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:00:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@gnt.com [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f5M00gx22524 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:00:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from broadsword (p467.gnt.com [204.49.91.83]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id TAA15838; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:00:39 -0500 Message-ID: <002301c0faae$17277810$0100a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3B329F10.C9F7D192@jetnet.ab.ca> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "'Ben Franchuk'" Cc: "Starship-Design \(E-mail\)" Subject: RE: starship-design: Solar Windsurfing: The Fastest-Ever Propulsion (So Far) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:53:40 -0500 Ben Franchuk wrote: > Can this be used for local transport like from the Terra to Luna? > At the moment it looks to be one way only. How do you TACK against > the solar wind. Unfortunately, I see no way to "tack" this craft. It is not a sail, in that it doesn't deflect anything. As far as being one way, well I suppose that is more a matter of charge than anything else. It should be possible to use this for braking a ship coming into a solar system as well. Weren't we looking at a system that would accelerate a craft out but couldn't slow it down? Here are the brakes.... Lee From VM Fri Jun 22 10:10:14 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1942" "Friday" "22" "June" "2001" "09:28:28" "-0500" "Kevin Houston" "kevin@urly-bird.com" nil "45" "Re: starship-design: Solar Windsurfing: The Fastest-Ever Propulsion (So Far)" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1942 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f5MEQYV20300 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 07:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c009.snv.cp.net (c009-h019.c009.snv.cp.net [209.228.34.132]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with SMTP id f5MEQXx20295 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 07:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (cpmta 3880 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2001 07:26:18 -0700 Received: from ip16.minneapolis6.mn.pub-ip.psi.net (HELO urly-bird.com) (38.27.198.16) by smtp.surfree.com (209.228.34.132) with SMTP; 22 Jun 2001 07:26:18 -0700 X-Sent: 22 Jun 2001 14:26:18 GMT Message-ID: <3B33560C.4F7BAFBE@urly-bird.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <002301c0faae$17277810$0100a8c0@broadsword> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Kevin Houston From: Kevin Houston Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design (E-mail)" Subject: Re: starship-design: Solar Windsurfing: The Fastest-Ever Propulsion (So Far) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:28:28 -0500 What if the magnaetic bubble was also spinning (or varying it's field orientation in a cirular manner) like a magnuson effect wind-sail, or a spinning baseball? (let's ignore surface irregularity arguments for the moment.) Would this allow one to "Tack" a spherical object against the wind. I realize those are pressure effects, and that the solar wind may not be dense enough to provide much of a differential, but we might be able to over come that by increasing the rotation speed. (especially if we are talking rotating energy, and not rotating mass.) ok, it is early, and we all know that my physics is not the greatest, but imagine a magnetic field spinning at a very high rate, with speed control provided by the fastest dedicated CPU we can muster. Now imagine a solar wind particle entering the sphere from one side, it is moving at a pretty good clip. Upon interacting with our mag- field, the particle will be deflected 90 degrees (depending upon the speed of the rotation) and the momentum vector will not point directly away from the sun, but off to one side or the other. This will allow you to add to your orbital speed, thereby slowing down, while moving to a larger orbit, or subtract from your orbital speed, thus moving into a tighter orbit, and speeding up. Kevin Houston "L. Parker" wrote: > > Ben Franchuk wrote: > > > Can this be used for local transport like from the Terra to Luna? > > At the moment it looks to be one way only. How do you TACK against > > the solar wind. > > Unfortunately, I see no way to "tack" this craft. It is not a sail, in that > it doesn't deflect anything. As far as being one way, well I suppose that is > more a matter of charge than anything else. It should be possible to use > this for braking a ship coming into a solar system as well. Weren't we > looking at a system that would accelerate a craft out but couldn't slow it > down? Here are the brakes.... > > Lee From VM Fri Jun 22 14:10:23 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1057" "Friday" "22" "June" "2001" "13:45:13" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "20" "Re: starship-design: Solar Windsurfing: The Fastest-Ever Propulsion (So Far)" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1057 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f5MKjia08354 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f5MKjhx08347 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [206.163.182.194]) by clavin.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f5MKjfq03613 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:45:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f5MKjEv09983; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:45:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15155.44633.390238.433227@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <3B33560C.4F7BAFBE@urly-bird.com> References: <002301c0faae$17277810$0100a8c0@broadsword> <3B33560C.4F7BAFBE@urly-bird.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.92 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design (E-mail)" Subject: Re: starship-design: Solar Windsurfing: The Fastest-Ever Propulsion (So Far) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:45:13 -0700 Kevin Houston writes: > What if the magnaetic bubble was also spinning (or varying it's field > orientation in a cirular manner) like a magnuson effect wind-sail, > or a spinning baseball? (let's ignore surface irregularity arguments > for the moment.) > > Would this allow one to "Tack" a spherical object against the wind. It's been a while since my college physics course and its coverage of electromagnetism, but I think making the magnetic field spin is probably not going to be that effective. I do remember fairly clearly that charged particles spiral around magnetic field lines, since I had a physics lab that demonstrated this experimentally; continuously changing the orientation of the magnetic field will probably not do what you're hoping it would do. I suspect simply orienting the magnetic field in a particular way without continuously varying the orientation would deflect the charged particles in the solar wind to produce some ability to steer the thrust so it wouldn't have to be exactly parallel to the solar wind's flow. From VM Mon Jun 25 09:48:36 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1374" "Friday" "22" "June" "2001" "20:07:29" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "33" "RE: starship-design: Solar Windsurfing: The Fastest-Ever Propulsion (So Far)" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1374 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f5N1A5f01612 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@gnt.com [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f5N1A3x01604 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:10:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from broadsword (p479.gnt.com [204.49.91.95]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id UAA28516; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:09:44 -0500 Message-ID: <003c01c0fb80$e7767660$0100a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <15155.44633.390238.433227@tzadkiel.efn.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "'Steve VanDevender'" , "'Starship-Design \(E-mail\)'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Solar Windsurfing: The Fastest-Ever Propulsion (So Far) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:07:29 -0500 > From: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu > [mailto:owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu]On Behalf Of Steve > VanDevender > Kevin Houston writes: > > What if the magnaetic bubble was also spinning (or varying > it's field > > orientation in a cirular manner) like a magnuson effect wind-sail, > > or a spinning baseball? (let's ignore surface > irregularity arguments > > for the moment.) > > > > Would this allow one to "Tack" a spherical object against the wind. > > It's been a while since my college physics course and its coverage of > electromagnetism, but I think making the magnetic field spin > is probably > not going to be that effective. I do remember fairly clearly that > charged particles spiral around magnetic field lines, since I had a > physics lab that demonstrated this experimentally; > continuously changing > the orientation of the magnetic field will probably not do what you're > hoping it would do. > > I suspect simply orienting the magnetic field in a particular way > without continuously varying the orientation would deflect the charged > particles in the solar wind to produce some ability to steer > the thrust > so it wouldn't have to be exactly parallel to the solar wind's flow. Actually, I think it would be simplest to just vary the potential of the magnetic field on one side to create an imbalanced thrust.... Lee From VM Mon Jul 23 11:25:19 2001 Content-Length: 155 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["155" "Saturday" "21" "July" "2001" "19:23:21" "-0600" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "3" "starship-design: Worlds in space" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 155 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f6M1Kew24905 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 21 Jul 2001 18:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f6M1Kc224892 for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2001 18:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (dialin40.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.40]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA00654; Sat, 21 Jul 2001 19:20:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3B5A2B09.A55E2D21@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.19 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Richard P. Doran Sr." , "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: starship-design: Worlds in space Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 19:23:21 -0600 Part of deep space exploration is that of distant worlds. Since we can't get to many of them yet, here is information on creating worlds by computer. Ben. From VM Mon Jul 23 11:25:19 2001 Content-Length: 235 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["235" "Saturday" "21" "July" "2001" "19:25:04" "-0600" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "5" "starship-design: Worlds in space - corrected" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 235 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f6M1MHT25252 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 21 Jul 2001 18:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f6M1MG225246 for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2001 18:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (dialin40.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.40]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA00688; Sat, 21 Jul 2001 19:22:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3B5A2B70.63A6C7C5@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.19 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Richard P. Doran Sr." , "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: starship-design: Worlds in space - corrected Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 19:25:04 -0600 Part of deep space exploration is that of distant worlds. Since we can't get to many of them yet, here is information on creating worlds by computer. duh ... the link http://curriculum.calstatela.edu/courses/builders/index.html Ben. From VM Mon Jul 30 10:00:36 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["179" "Saturday" "28" "July" "2001" "01:53:07" "" "jim clem" "travmind@hotmail.com" nil "6" "" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 179 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f6S1rEA10932 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 27 Jul 2001 18:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hotmail.com (f64.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.64]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f6S1rD210926 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2001 18:53:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 27 Jul 2001 18:53:08 -0700 Received: from 66.129.14.135 by lw4fd.law4.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 28 Jul 2001 01:53:07 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.129.14.135] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jul 2001 01:53:08.0074 (UTC) FILETIME=[0C8BA4A0:01C11708] Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "jim clem" From: "jim clem" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 01:53:07 Is this list still active? Jim Clem _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From VM Mon Jul 30 10:00:36 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["140" "Friday" "27" "July" "2001" "19:07:16" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "7" "" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 140 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f6S287m14068 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 27 Jul 2001 19:08:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f6S286214063 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2001 19:08:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [206.163.182.194]) by clavin.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f6S285K06022 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2001 19:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f6S27IK31034; Fri, 27 Jul 2001 19:07:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15202.7764.975439.432784@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.95 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 19:07:16 -0700 jim clem writes: > Is this list still active? > > Jim Clem The list still exists, but it has been rather quiet in the past few months. From VM Mon Jul 30 10:00:36 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["664" "Friday" "27" "July" "2001" "20:50:46" "-0600" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "12" "starship-design: Re: " "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 664 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f6S2j8Y21986 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 27 Jul 2001 19:45:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f6S2j7221981 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2001 19:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (dialin43.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.43]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA16705 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2001 20:44:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3B622886.86941D57@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.19 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 20:50:46 -0600 Hmm a blank subject --- that makes it real quiet. I just happened to reading this "Artificial Gravity and the Architecture of Orbital Habitats" http://www.spacefuture.com/archive/artificial_gravity_and_the_architecture_of_orbital_habitats.shtml This is interesting as it seems that any space travel for longer than about 6-9 months requires some form of Artfitial gravity. For us low tech people with out synthetic gravity that means a diameter of 40+ meters for a rotating living area.. So until we get the nuclear rockets developed even in solar system travel will require gravity. http://www.msfc.nasa.gov/STD/propulsion/research/fusion/gdm/fusiongen.html Ben.