From VM Thu Oct 5 10:31:16 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["562" "Wednesday" "4" "October" "2000" "21:48:19" "-0500" "curtismanges@netscape.net" "curtismanges@netscape.net" nil "12" "starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble" "^From:" nil nil "10" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) X-VM-Labels: nil X-VM-Summary-Format: "%n %*%a %-17.17F %-3.3m %2d %4l/%-5c %I\"%s\"\n" X-VM-IMAP-Retrieved: nil X-VM-POP-Retrieved: nil X-VM-Last-Modified: (15015 61116 167836) Content-Length: 562 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e95HKED02715 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 10:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e95HKDG02685 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 10:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x500msfc.msfc.nasa.gov (X500MSFC.MSFC.NASA.GOV [198.116.111.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e952mQ906429 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 19:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.149.89.43] by x500msfc.msfc.nasa.gov with ESMTP; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 21:51:26 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by science.iss.msfc.nasa.gov with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 21:48:19 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-Id: <03cd919480205a0SCIENCE@science.iss.msfc.nasa.gov> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: From: Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Cc: Subject: starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 21:48:19 -0500 Hi! I thought you'd be interested in this story from Science@NASA: NASA-funded scientists are experimenting with miniature magnetospheres as an innovative means of space transportation. If the group succeeds, next-generation spacecraft may come equipped with fuel-efficient magnetic bubbles that speed their occupants from planet to planet and ward off the worst solar flares. http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast04oct_1.htm?friend (or Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble .) From VM Mon Oct 9 10:10:58 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2963" "Sunday" "8" "October" "2000" "01:12:47" "EDT" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" nil "58" "Re: starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble" "^From:" nil nil "10" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2963 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e985CtG16196 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 22:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo-r16.mail.aol.com (imo-r16.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.70]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e985Cs916180 for ; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 22:12:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from STAR1SHIP@aol.com by imo-r16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.26.) id x.6e.3b1bd19 (16789); Sun, 8 Oct 2000 01:12:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <6e.3b1bd19.27115c4f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 112 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com From: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: curtismanges@netscape.net CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 01:12:47 EDT In a message dated 10/5/00 10:24:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, curtismanges@netscape.net writes: > Hi! > I thought you'd be interested in this story from Science@NASA: > > NASA-funded scientists are experimenting with miniature magnetospheres as > an innovative means of space transportation. If the group succeeds, > next-generation spacecraft may come equipped with fuel-efficient magnetic > bubbles that speed their occupants from planet to planet and ward off the > worst solar flares. > http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast04oct_1.htm?friend > (or > > Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble .) Hi Curtis, Partial quote from link "The solar wind's force per unit area decreases as the square of the distance from the Sun. Doubling the distance, for instance, decreases the solar wind pressure by a factor of four. "The solar wind is weaker far from the Sun, but the bubble is bigger, too (precisely because the solar wind pressure is lower)," he continued. "It so happens that the cross section of the bubble increases by the same factor that the solar wind pressure declines. The two effects completely cancel." It seems amazing, but the propulsive thrust of an M2P2-powered craft remains the same whether the spacecraft is near the Sun or in the outer reaches of the solar system. " end partial quote ----- I would have to examine the math. On the surface It seems to violate the laws of conservation of momentum. P=mv, so the momentum of the push force must equal the momentum of the accelerating object. I do not see how the bubble getting bigger cancels the inverse square law that determines the push force in relation to the acclerating object bubble field size. In other words, I am not convinced the area exposed to the solar wind by increased bubble size is an equal size inverse square function as claimed. Bubble size may indeed have some linear effect, but not to the exponential extent claimed. Do you have any more math data on the subject? It seems clear to me using the powering energy of the sun being it light, electro or magnetectic field providing the energy. The inverse square law limits the practicality as the observed sun grows dimmer and smaller wrt to the bubble. For the conservation of energy or momentum to balance on both sides of the equation, an added energy source would be in order. Energy added to the bubble from internally aboard the craft may be required to cancel the remainder of the inverse square function. If so, that energy must come from an increased mass aboard the ship which puts you back to square one and a decrease in velocity as P remains equal to mv. Until I am shown the error of my ways I will stick to action/reaction engines blowing exhaust out the back as they are practical for star journeys. Solar power just fizzles out any signifigant distance from the sun. Tom From VM Mon Oct 9 10:10:58 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2530" "Saturday" "7" "October" "2000" "22:45:13" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "42" "Re: starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble" "^From:" nil nil "10" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2530 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e985jQp24975 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 22:45:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e985jP924967 for ; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 22:45:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [206.163.182.194]) by clavin.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e985jNS22284 for ; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 22:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e985jWo19736; Sat, 7 Oct 2000 22:45:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14816.2537.747629.149381@localhost.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <6e.3b1bd19.27115c4f@aol.com> References: <6e.3b1bd19.27115c4f@aol.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.76 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 22:45:13 -0700 STAR1SHIP@aol.com writes: > Partial quote from link > "The solar wind's force per unit area decreases as the square of the distance > from the Sun. Doubling the distance, for instance, decreases the solar wind > pressure by a factor of four. "The solar wind is weaker far from the Sun, but > the bubble is bigger, too (precisely because the solar wind pressure is > lower)," he continued. "It so happens that the cross section of the bubble > increases by the same factor that the solar wind pressure declines. The two > effects completely cancel." It seems amazing, but the propulsive thrust of an > M2P2-powered craft remains the same whether the spacecraft is near the Sun or > in the outer reaches of the solar system. > " end partial quote > ----- > > I would have to examine the math. On the surface It seems to violate > the laws of conservation of momentum. P=mv, so the momentum of the > push force must equal the momentum of the accelerating object. I do > not see how the bubble getting bigger cancels the inverse square law > that determines the push force in relation to the acclerating object > bubble field size. In other words, I am not convinced the area > exposed to the solar wind by increased bubble size is an equal size > inverse square function as claimed. Bubble size may indeed have some > linear effect, but not to the exponential extent claimed. In theory, at least, if the effective area of the magnetic sail is proportional to r^2 at a distance r from the Sun, then it would be true that there would be no decrease in propulsion as it moved away. That would imply, however, that the magnetic field strength could be increased without limit, which is clearly not possible. It's probably true that up to a certain distance from the Sun while the solar wind compresses the magnetic field significantly, the weaking of the solar wind would be counteracted by an increase in the effective cross-section of the sail. Eventually, at a great distance from the Sun, the magnetic field would no longer be compressed by the solar wind and the sail cross-section would remain at a constant size, so the thrust would fall off with 1/r^2 as expected. More simply, though, the magnetic sail could not propel the craft to a speed greater than that of the solar wind, since once it's traveling at the speed of the solar wind, there would no longer be any thrust. That would be a fairly impressive speed by modern standards, but still a fairly small fraction of the speed of light. From VM Mon Oct 9 10:10:58 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4063" "Sunday" "8" "October" "2000" "20:11:23" "EDT" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" nil "82" "Re: starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble" "^From:" nil nil "10" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 4063 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e990C8U09100 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 17:12:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo-r15.mail.aol.com (imo-r15.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.69]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e990C7909095 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 17:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from STAR1SHIP@aol.com by imo-r15.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.26.) id s.36.c61e610 (3968); Sun, 8 Oct 2000 20:11:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <36.c61e610.2712672b@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 112 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com From: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: stevev@efn.org CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 20:11:23 EDT In a message dated 10/7/00 10:54:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, stevev@efn.org writes: > STAR1SHIP@aol.com writes: > > Partial quote from link > > "The solar wind's force per unit area decreases as the square of the > distance > > from the Sun. Doubling the distance, for instance, decreases the solar > wind > > pressure by a factor of four. "The solar wind is weaker far from the Sun, > but > > the bubble is bigger, too (precisely because the solar wind pressure is > > lower)," he continued. "It so happens that the cross section of the > bubble > > increases by the same factor that the solar wind pressure declines. The > two > > effects completely cancel." It seems amazing, but the propulsive thrust > of an > > M2P2-powered craft remains the same whether the spacecraft is near the > Sun or > > in the outer reaches of the solar system. > > " end partial quote > > ----- > > > > I would have to examine the math. On the surface It seems to violate > > the laws of conservation of momentum. P=mv, so the momentum of the > > push force must equal the momentum of the accelerating object. I do > > not see how the bubble getting bigger cancels the inverse square law > > that determines the push force in relation to the acclerating object > > bubble field size. In other words, I am not convinced the area > > exposed to the solar wind by increased bubble size is an equal size > > inverse square function as claimed. Bubble size may indeed have some > > linear effect, but not to the exponential extent claimed. > > In theory, at least, if the effective area of the magnetic sail is > proportional to r^2 at a distance r from the Sun, then it would be true > that there would be no decrease in propulsion as it moved away. Hi Steve, Better stating my point, Any increase in "sail size" follows physics laws. double the height of a mass object and it's mass increases 4 fold. Any energy to provide an increased size "magnetic" sail, even though the mass of the magnetic component is near zero, reguires internal energy from the craft produced from mass parts that will need to be four times the mass. The gained momentum (P) is used up as P=MassTimesVelocity. The claimed velocity is unreachable for the mass inverse square law. > That would imply, however, that the magnetic field strength could be > increased without limit, which is clearly not possible. True, The law stated causes objects on earth to fall when height exceeds mass which the foundation can support. There is indeed a practical limit far below the theoretical limit. > It's probably > true that up to a certain distance from the Sun while the solar wind > compresses the magnetic field significantly, the weaking of the solar > wind would be counteracted by an increase in the effective cross-section > of the sail. Eventually, at a great distance from the Sun, the magnetic > field would no longer be compressed by the solar wind and the sail > cross-section would remain at a constant size, so the thrust would fall > off with 1/r^2 as expected. > > More simply, though, the magnetic sail could not propel the craft to a > speed greater than that of the solar wind, since once it's traveling at > the speed of the solar wind, there would no longer be any thrust. That > would be a fairly impressive speed by modern standards, but still a > fairly small fraction of the speed of light. The speed of wind is an average velocity made up of light, gravity waves, heat, electro and magnetic components and also mass parts. A well designed "light"sail in theory could indeed reach light speed, but practically will not near c, for the light and electromagnetic energy captured by the sail far from the effects of the gravity and mass parts is so small in relation to the mass of the rocket sail, I see little hope of leaving the solar system before the solar system gravity fields slows and drags the sail back in an elliptical comet like orbit orbit around the sun. Regards, Tom > From VM Mon Oct 9 10:10:58 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1414" "Sunday" "8" "October" "2000" "20:31:18" "EDT" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" nil "35" "Re: starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble" "^From:" nil nil "10" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1414 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e990W9k16256 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 17:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e990W3916233 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 17:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from STAR1SHIP@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.26.) id z.9c.7f52f15 (3968); Sun, 8 Oct 2000 20:31:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9c.7f52f15.27126bd6@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 112 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com From: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 20:31:18 EDT In a message dated 10/7/00 11:00:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca writes: > I agree with the math as gut level thing but think that > thrust is less for a different reason in the outer solar system. > With less solar wind, in the outer solar system you could have > more dust and trash that gets messes up the magnetic bubble > and taking thrust from the spacecraft. Ben, Both, your reasons and theirs, cause a decrease in velocity the farther from the sun. Interestingly, any collision with space dust is determined by the laws of probability as calculated from the rain drop effect equations. The rain drop effect simply said is that if you run between two doors in a rain storm you get less wet than if you walk. It applies to space travel as meteor collisions. Accelerate at one g for 356 days to exceed light speed for the faster you go the less the probability of catastrophic collision. Star travel, to be successful, requires a combination of high velocity, streamlining (minimal rocket cross section area) and electromagnetic methods for repelling charged objects and avoidance methods to avoid neutral charged mass objects. Believe it or not, the electric armor I invented, described in indexb, does just that. Plasma Rocket Engine see preferred embodiment with electric armor. Regards, Tom > Ben. From VM Mon Oct 9 10:10:58 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1536" "Sunday" "8" "October" "2000" "21:06:43" "-0400" "Curtis Manges" "curtismanges@netscape.net" nil "24" "Re: starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble" "^From:" nil nil "10" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1536 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e9916uj27962 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 18:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo-r05.mail.aol.com (imo-r05.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e9916s927954 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 18:06:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from curtismanges@netscape.net by imo-r05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.26.) id g.5.138f1b (16216); Sun, 8 Oct 2000 21:06:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netscape.com (aimmail08.aim.aol.com [205.188.144.200]) by air-in01.mx.aol.com (v76_r1.8) with ESMTP; Sun, 08 Oct 2000 21:06:43 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <40297AE1.58B954EE.74D2F445@netscape.net> References: <6e.3b1bd19.27115c4f@aol.com> X-Mailer: Franklin Webmailer 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: curtismanges@netscape.net (Curtis Manges) From: curtismanges@netscape.net (Curtis Manges) Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 21:06:43 -0400 Tom, you wrote: The inverse square law > limits the practicality as the observed sun grows dimmer and smaller wrt to > the bubble. For the conservation of energy or momentum to balance on both > sides of the equation, an added energy source would be in order. > > Energy added to the bubble from internally aboard the craft may be required > to cancel the remainder of the inverse square function. When I looked at this thing and sent it, it just seemed like a neat idea and I hadn't examined it critically, but I have to agree that this thing wouldn't be very effective beyond some range; the acceleration would have to fall off to a useless value. If this is what you want to do, it's all right, but I personally don't care much for sailcraft; I think their mission abilities are too limited by their means of propulsion. I don't really think the mag-sail has any advantage over an ion drive, and it has definite disadvantages. Anyway, this all reminds me of how little of the sun's energy we collect in the first place. I did an extremely rude approximation once, and I think I recall that the amount of the sun's total output that hits Earth is like 1x10E-23. (Feel free to double-check that for me; it was quite a while ago that I did it.) So, when you go throwing inverse-square into the mix, the free lunch is going to end somewhere, as it wasn't much to begin with. Wherever that somewhere is, an ion engine (or other reaction device) could continue to accelerate and the sail would not. Keep looking up, Curtis From VM Mon Oct 9 10:10:58 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1880" "Sunday" "8" "October" "2000" "21:16:16" "-0400" "Curtis Manges" "curtismanges@netscape.net" nil "34" "[Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble]" "^From:" nil nil "10" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1880 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e991GPW29323 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 18:16:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo-r16.mail.aol.com (imo-r16.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.70]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e991GN929316 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 18:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from curtismanges@netscape.net by imo-r16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.26.) id z.b.17cf19 (16219) for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 21:16:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netscape.com (aimmail02.aim.aol.com [205.188.144.194]) by air-in01.mx.aol.com (v76_r1.8) with ESMTP; Sun, 08 Oct 2000 21:16:15 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3C495BDE.3634FB70.74D2F445@netscape.net> X-Mailer: Franklin Webmailer 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: curtismanges@netscape.net (Curtis Manges) From: curtismanges@netscape.net (Curtis Manges) Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: [Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble] Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 21:16:16 -0400 -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 21:06:43 -0400 From: curtismanges@netscape.net (Curtis Manges) Reply-To: curtismanges@netscape.net (Curtis Manges) To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu References: <6e.3b1bd19.27115c4f@aol.com> Tom, you wrote: The inverse square law > limits the practicality as the observed sun grows dimmer and smaller wrt to > the bubble. For the conservation of energy or momentum to balance on both > sides of the equation, an added energy source would be in order. > > Energy added to the bubble from internally aboard the craft may be required > to cancel the remainder of the inverse square function. When I looked at this thing and sent it, it just seemed like a neat idea and I hadn't examined it critically, but I have to agree that this thing wouldn't be very effective beyond some range; the acceleration would have to fall off to a useless value. If this is what you want to do, it's all right, but I personally don't care much for sailcraft; I think their mission abilities are too limited by their means of propulsion. I don't really think the mag-sail has any advantage over an ion drive, and it has definite disadvantages. Anyway, this all reminds me of how little of the sun's energy we collect in the first place. I did an extremely rude approximation once, and I think I recall that the amount of the sun's total output that hits Earth is like 1x10E-23. (Feel free to double-check that for me; it was quite a while ago that I did it.) So, when you go throwing inverse-square into the mix, the free lunch is going to end somewhere, as it wasn't much to begin with. Wherever that somewhere is, an ion engine (or other reaction device) could continue to accelerate and the sail would not. Keep looking up, Curtis From VM Mon Oct 9 10:10:58 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["935" "Sunday" "8" "October" "2000" "21:19:40" "-0400" "Curtis Manges" "curtismanges@netscape.net" nil "27" "[Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble]" "^From:" nil nil "10" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 935 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e991JlH01902 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 18:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo-r11.mail.aol.com (imo-r11.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.65]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e991Jj901861 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 18:19:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from curtismanges@netscape.net by imo-r11.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.26.) id z.2e.17939c (16215) for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 21:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netscape.com (aimmail02.aim.aol.com [205.188.144.194]) by air-in01.mx.aol.com (v76_r1.8) with ESMTP; Sun, 08 Oct 2000 21:19:39 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <0EAD2B4C.14792146.74D2F445@netscape.net> X-Mailer: Franklin Webmailer 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: curtismanges@netscape.net (Curtis Manges) From: curtismanges@netscape.net (Curtis Manges) Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: [Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble] Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 21:19:40 -0400 -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 21:13:32 -0400 From: curtismanges@netscape.net (Curtis Manges To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com References: <9c.7f52f15.27126bd6@aol.com> STAR1SHIP@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 10/7/00 11:00:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca writes: > > > I agree with the math as gut level thing but think that > >  thrust is less for a different reason in the outer solar system. > >  With less solar wind, in the outer solar system you could have > >  more dust and trash that gets messes up the magnetic bubble > >  and taking thrust from the spacecraft. > > Ben, Maybe the mag-sail craft could periodically degauss itself and lose most of the garbage. More fundamentally, though, is there any reason to expect more dust and trash in the outer system as opposed to closer in? Just asking. Curtis From VM Mon Oct 9 10:10:58 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1354" "Sunday" "8" "October" "2000" "18:30:07" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "22" "Re: starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble" "^From:" nil nil "10" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1354 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e991UHQ05809 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 18:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e991UD905796 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 18:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [206.163.182.194]) by clavin.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e991U7S07779 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 18:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e991UG525204; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 18:30:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14817.8095.666075.127164@localhost.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <36.c61e610.2712672b@aol.com> References: <36.c61e610.2712672b@aol.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.76 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 18:30:07 -0700 STAR1SHIP@aol.com writes: > The speed of wind is an average velocity made up of light, gravity waves, > heat, electro and magnetic components and also mass parts. A well designed > "light"sail in theory could indeed reach light speed, but practically will > not near c, for the light and electromagnetic energy captured by the sail far > from the effects of the gravity and mass parts is so small in relation to the > mass of the rocket sail, I see little hope of leaving the solar system before > the solar system gravity fields slows and drags the sail back in an > elliptical comet like orbit orbit around the sun. What is referred to as the "solar wind" is specifically the charged particle flux that streams away from the Sun, and it's that charged particle flux that would interact with a magnetic sail. According to Lang's _Astrophysical Formulae, 3rd ed._, pp 271-273, the solar wind has two components, one with a velocity of about 400 km/s, another with a velocity of about 800 km/s, as measured near Earth. Solar escape velocity (the table in _CRC Handook of Chemistry and Physics_ doesn't say where, but I'm assuming from the surface since it would vary with distance from the Sun) is about 671 km/s. So interaction with the fast component of the solar wind could easily propel a spacecraft to escape velocity from the Sun. From VM Mon Oct 9 10:10:58 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["785" "Sunday" "8" "October" "2000" "18:42:12" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "17" "[Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble]" "^From:" nil nil "10" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 785 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e991gC108826 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 18:42:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e991g8908819 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 18:42:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [206.163.182.194]) by clavin.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e991g4S09657 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 18:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e991gDw25266; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 18:42:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14817.8820.529299.334206@localhost.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <3C495BDE.3634FB70.74D2F445@netscape.net> References: <3C495BDE.3634FB70.74D2F445@netscape.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.76 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: [Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble] Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 18:42:12 -0700 Curtis Manges writes: > If this is what you want to do, it's all right, but I personally > don't care much for sailcraft; I think their mission abilities are > too limited by their means of propulsion. I don't think even the creators of this magnetic sail idea are proposing it as suitable for interstellar travel. However, it would be very effective for interplanetary travel; it's potentially a very cheap way to accelerate spacecraft to well over 100 km/s. Sailcraft still have quite a bit of appeal for interstellar travel, mainly because the fuel-to-payload ratio needed to achieve a speed that is a significant fraction of c is huge. At the very least using a sail to boost out of your home system may be far more economical than carrying the equivalent amount of fuel. From VM Mon Oct 9 10:10:58 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["583" "Monday" "9" "October" "2000" "00:08:01" "+0000" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "14" "Re: [Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble]" "^From:" nil nil "10" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 583 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e992gXt29179 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 19:42:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e992gT929173 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 19:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (dialin42.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.42]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA19304; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 20:38:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <39E10C61.C2C82DE5@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.15 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3C495BDE.3634FB70.74D2F445@netscape.net> <14817.8820.529299.334206@localhost.efn.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Steve VanDevender CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble] Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 00:08:01 +0000 Steve VanDevender wrote: > Sailcraft still have quite a bit of appeal for interstellar travel, > mainly because the fuel-to-payload ratio needed to achieve a speed that > is a significant fraction of c is huge. At the very least using a sail > to boost out of your home system may be far more economical than > carrying the equivalent amount of fuel. Better yet, a way to decelerate from light speed. Ben. -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk From VM Mon Oct 9 10:33:17 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["888" "Monday" "9" "October" "2000" "13:24:02" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "22" "Re: [Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble]" "^From:" nil nil "10" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 888 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e99HP1S22533 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 10:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo-d10.mx.aol.com (imo-d10.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.42]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e99HOv922511 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 10:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.26.) id z.ce.b9fd131 (15900); Mon, 9 Oct 2000 13:24:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web51.aolmail.aol.com (web51.aolmail.aol.com [205.188.161.12]) by air-id09.mx.aol.com (v76_r1.8) with ESMTP; Mon, 09 Oct 2000 13:24:07 2000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Unknown Message-ID: Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: , Cc: Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble] Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 13:24:02 EDT I have wondered what the power/drag ratio would be with a mag brake. I'ld think the power levels would be prohibative, but it might work for something powered by a maser sail. In a message dated Sun, 8 Oct 2000 10:43:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Ben Franchuk writes: << Steve VanDevender wrote: > Sailcraft still have quite a bit of appeal for interstellar travel, > mainly because the fuel-to-payload ratio needed to achieve a speed that > is a significant fraction of c is huge. At the very least using a sail > to boost out of your home system may be far more economical than > carrying the equivalent amount of fuel. Better yet, a way to decelerate from light speed. Ben. -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk >> From VM Mon Oct 9 14:44:03 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5961" "Monday" "9" "October" "2000" "16:33:53" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "127" "starship-design: CONCEPT FOR MODULAR INTERORBITAL MULTI-ROLE MULTI-MISSION VEHICLE" "^From:" nil nil "10" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 5961 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e99La4o08745 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 14:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@[204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e99La3908732 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 14:36:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from broadsword (p468.gnt.com [204.49.91.84]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id QAA31287 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 16:35:59 -0500 Message-ID: <000f01c03238$b09695b0$0100a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design \(E-mail\)" Subject: starship-design: CONCEPT FOR MODULAR INTERORBITAL MULTI-ROLE MULTI-MISSION VEHICLE Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 16:33:53 -0500 CONCEPT FOR MODULAR INTERORBITAL MULTI-ROLE MULTI-MISSION VEHICLE OVERVIEW Basic conceptualization is a multi-component spacecraft consisting of multiple modules designed to attach to a common bus both electrically and mechanically. The bus provides all electrical and mechanical support functions to each module and interfaces these functions with an interchangeable COMMAND MODULE for control purposes. DESIGN PHILOSOPHY By providing a common interface for both electrical and mechanical systems, it is possible to build a selection of interchangeable modules that can be plugged together indifferent configurations as mission requirements demand. Although some performance loss over purpose built designs is to be expected, the cost savings resulting from this approach are so overwhelming that the performance loss considerations are negligible. MAIN MODULE The core of this design is the MAIN MODULE to which all other modules attach. This module contains all power production, power conditioning, fuel supply, life support, and electromechanical attachment points for the other modules. All computer systems necessary for the control, maintenance and regulation of the systems on this module are also included. The MAIN MODULE may be chained to other MAIN MODULES in either linear or piggyback fashion. The physical design is an octagonal 'can' that permits interlocking for maximum structural rigidity in groups of two or four. Two MAIN MODULES or BLANK MODULES in parallel can support up to nine PAYLOAD MODULES. Four MAIN MODULES or BLANK MODULES in parallel can support up to twelve PAYLOAD MODULES. There are 10 attachment points on a MAIN MODULE: an UP POINT, which is usually the COMMAND MODULE or a SENSOR/COMMUNICATIONS MODULE; a DOWN POINT, which is normally the PROPULSION MODULE; and eight AUXILLARY POINTS. A single MAIN MODULE can support as many as eight PAYLOAD MODULES of Type 1 mounted to the AUXILLARY POINTS. So two MAIN MODULES or BLANK MODULES mounted in tandem can support up to sixteen PAYLOAD MODULES. COMMAND MODULE This module provides all C3I functions for the vehicle. It is also the living quarters for the crew, if any. Although every module includes some built-in computer intelligence for interface purposes, the main computers that control the vehicle are located here. Basic sensors necessary for minimal mission configuration would normally be included with this module even though payload modules might carry additional sensors to augment capabilities for a particular mission. This is normally mounted in-line with the MAIN MODULE rather than to one of the eight auxillary mating points. Long duration modules may be designed to mount in tandem to multiple MAIN MODULES/BLANK MODULES in groups of two or four. SENSOR/COMMUNICATIONS MODULE This module is for missions where the onboard abilities of standard COMMAND MODULES would be insufficient because of the distances invloved. It is designed to support larger sensor arrays than a COMMAND MODULE. It is usually, but not always, mounted directly below the COMMAND MODULE and above the MAIN MODULE. PROPULSION MODULE The propulsion module, like the rest, is interchangeable for a variety of missions. It includes all engines, fuel, power feeds to the MAIN MODULE and control electronics necessary to maintain and regulate itself subject to the requirements of the COMMAND MODULE. PROPULSION ADAPTER MODULE Supports multiple PROPULSION MODULES for missions requiring higher delta v or carrying unusually massive cargo. BLANK MODULE A dummy module providing only pass through electromechanical connections and structural support. Typically used to attach to MAIN MODULES in place of another MAIN MODULE to add physical room for oversized PAYLOAD MODULE configurations or where more AUXILLARY POINTS are needed without the overhead of additional MAIN MODULES. BLANK MODULES may be designed in heavy duty configurations to provide enhanced structural strength for high acceleration stress missions. PAYLOAD MODULE(S) An infinite variety of payload modules are possible, fulfilling all possible missions and in so far as they are constrained by the common mating bus and possible ship configurations that might be assembled for that particular mission, they may assume almost any physical shape or dimension. Basic PAYLOAD MODULES are defined by the number of mating points they occupy, a Type 1 is designed to attach to a single mating point without interfering with the attachment of modules on neighboring points, a Type 2 requires to adjacent mating points each at 45 degrees to the other without interfering with the attachment of modules to adjacent mating points. The sequence continues until Type 8, which is basically a full circle around all eight attachment points of a single MAIN MODULE Possible modules include but are not limited to: 1) Bulk Cargo Pod - Basic module for the transport of anything not requiring environmental maintenance, in other words, a large box. 2) Environmental Cargo Pod - A somewhat enhanced module for the transport of materials that might require atmosphere, thermal, or other environmental support. Typically, food stuffs and manufactured goods. 3) Fuel Pod - Used to extend the range of the vehicle. 4) Environmental Support Pod - Used to increase the environmental capacity of the main module. 5) Power Support Pod - Used to increase the power capacity of the main module. 6) Sensors Pod - Adds higher capacity sensors to the COMMAND MODULE's built-in sensors. This type would include research functions such as optical and radio telescopes 7) Passenger Pod - Carries human or other live cargo in a self sustained environmental pod. May be augmented in certain configurations by the addition of Power Support Pods and/or Environmental Support Pods. 8) Weapons Pod - Sorry, but if it is designed to a common bus, it can be made to carry weapons. From VM Mon Oct 9 17:00:41 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2401" "Monday" "9" "October" "2000" "18:58:09" "EDT" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" nil "60" "Re: starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble" "^From:" nil nil "10" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2401 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e99MwYP02256 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 15:58:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo-r14.mail.aol.com (imo-r14.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.68]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e99MwX902246 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 15:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from STAR1SHIP@aol.com by imo-r14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.26.) id s.33.b330f50 (3705); Mon, 9 Oct 2000 18:58:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33.b330f50.2713a781@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 112 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com From: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: stevev@efn.org CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Hitching a Ride on a Magnetic Bubble Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 18:58:09 EDT In a message dated 10/8/00 6:31:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time, stevev@efn.org writes: > STAR1SHIP@aol.com writes: > > The speed of wind is an average velocity made up of light, gravity waves, > > > heat, electro and magnetic components and also mass parts. A well > designed > > "light"sail in theory could indeed reach light speed, but practically > will > > not near c, for the light and electromagnetic energy captured by the sail > far > > from the effects of the gravity and mass parts is so small in relation to > the > > mass of the rocket sail, I see little hope of leaving the solar system > before > > the solar system gravity fields slows and drags the sail back in an > > elliptical comet like orbit orbit around the sun. > > What is referred to as the "solar wind" is specifically the charged > particle flux that streams away from the Sun, and it's that charged > particle flux that would interact with a magnetic sail. > > According to Lang's _Astrophysical Formulae, 3rd ed._, pp 271-273, the > solar wind has two components, one with a velocity of about 400 km/s, > another with a velocity of about 800 km/s, as measured near Earth. > Solar escape velocity (the table in _CRC Handook of Chemistry and > Physics_ doesn't say where, but I'm assuming from the surface since it > would vary with distance from the Sun) is about 671 km/s. So > interaction with the fast component of the solar wind could easily > propel a spacecraft to escape velocity from the Sun. Steve, I was looking for something a little more reliable than the Lang's _Astrophysical Formulae, 3rd ed._, pp 271-273 or the solar wind and it's many more than two components :-). Needing solar wind power at a specific time to keep rocket from falling into a planet gravity well during close orbital manuevers seems fool hardy. Partial quote---- For Two Days The Solar Wind Stopped by Paul Winter Back in May 99, the solar wind stopped for two days. Actually, it dropped to 2% of its normal density and to half its normal speed. Although the solar wind varies greatly, this was the most drastic and longest-lasting decrease ever observed. NASA sat on the story for five months. Squished it flat. When NASA finally released that information, it was too old for newspapers to carry quote link http://www.best.com/~handpen/Bio/comes.htm end quote Regards, Tom From VM Mon Oct 9 17:00:41 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4628" "Monday" "9" "October" "2000" "18:39:26" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" "<001901c0324a$2c0f1ad0$0100a8c0@broadsword>" "107" "starship-design: Larry Niven: Making Somebody Pay (This is too good...)" "^From:" nil nil "10" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 4628 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e99NfDA27681 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 16:41:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@gnt.com [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e99NfB927635 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 16:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from broadsword (p461.gnt.com [204.49.91.77]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id SAA19814 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 18:41:08 -0500 Message-ID: <001901c0324a$2c0f1ad0$0100a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design \(E-mail\)" Subject: starship-design: Larry Niven: Making Somebody Pay (This is too good...) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 18:39:26 -0500 Larry Niven: Making Somebody Pay By Larry Niven posted: 01:45 pm ET 14 September 2000 A panel at the World Science Fiction Convention was about evolving ways to make the conquest of the universe pay for itself. "Sell the right to leave your footprints in the moon," one said. "The contract says that they’ll be roped off for all eternity, like Neil Armstrong’s. Someone will bite." And I thought: barefoot. Arthur Clarke has pointed out that a man dropped into vacuum won’t just explode. He’d have roughly two minutes, conscious, to get himself into air again. He’d blow his eardrums (they grow back) and the varicose veins might be spectacular, a badge of honor. If he forgot to exhale he’d burst his lungs. But we’re playing tourist games; we don’t have to go that far. One of you is going to be the first human being to walk barefoot on the moon. There’s no need to be stark naked. Take a pressure suit -- standard by the time we can make this offer -- remove the boots, apply tourniquet pressure around the ankles or calves. We’ll bring you out to some flat patch of deep dust, in a moon crawler (also standard by now). You’re in the airlock; there’s a countdown-- Now you do the three-yard run. Not too fast, bozo, because you’ve got to make that turn, and if you bound over the damn airlock you’ll have to come back! Afterward we’ll set up the fence and signs, treat your feet for dehydration and frostbite, possible cuts and that mapwork of burst blood vessels you’ll be bragging about into the next century. We’ll take close-up pictures of the footprints to go with the video of your run, and drive you back to Moonbase. (We can’t use a flying vehicle! Rocket exhaust would erase the footprints.) Danger? No worse than skydiving. Well, not much. Expense? Today it’s impossible. Tomorrow. . . . My lovely wife Marilyn gets the Neimann-Marcus annual catalogue. It always offers a hugely expensive one-of-a-kind gift. What a lovely 50th anniversary present this would be! Bill Gates, I never know when you’re listening. That’s for later this century. What about the near term? Consider space as entertainment. We pay for the next generation of spacecraft via a subscription channel that watches every launch, that gets exclusive coverage from the probes and live coverage aboard the International Space Station. It would be dishonest. Every taxpayer paid for the probes, the shuttles, the space station. We can’t cut them off from what they bought. It’s a bootstrap problem: private enterprise doesn’t have much to sell as entertainment until it can afford to launch something. A currently popular scheme, variously expressed, would fit right in. We drop a crawler (like Sojourner) on the moon. (Eventually we’d want Mars.) It’s relatively cheap, no bigger than a toy, although orbiting relays (needed around Mars) would bring up the price. It’s controlled from Earth by VR. Give the controls to the highest bidder. Or go for publicity and donations: let Jay Leno steer the thing on TV. Get advertising from Toys-R-Us or Sega. If you can drop a thousand such mini-rovers across the moon, you’d go to a flat rate: anyone can steer a mini-rover over lunar terrain for fifty bucks a minute or something reasonable. Losing one costs extra. Jerry Pournelle told me about a discussion of the mini-rover scheme. Question: where do you drop the first mini-rover? Tryouts on the moon, of course, even if your ultimate goal is Mars. Where would it get the most media attention? Apollo 11's landing site was their first choice, Jerry said, but that’s dull turf. Tranquility Base was the guaranteed flattest possible place to land the first LEM, with no interesting-but-dangerous rocks, projections, anomalies . . . nothing. Of course you could tour around Armstrong’s footprints . . . but even though he drives pretty good -- being a classic car buff -- Jay Leno might run over the footprints. Someone eventually would. Can’t have that. I say: drop the toy car next to the first automobile on the moon. 1. It’s too big to hurt by accident. 2. $50-a-minute drivers could follow the tracks the moon buggy left. See everything the astronauts saw. Go on to terrain they missed. 3. We can "drive" the moon buggy itself this way. But we don’t need a humanoid robot (or another astronaut) for that. Just an advanced mini-rover to climb up and plug into the controls, carrying a program update and a camera to ride the dash. 4. All it takes is funding. Larry Niven is a noted master of futurism and science fiction. Sooner or later, the editor will get your comments to him, or implement your other suggestions. From VM Mon Oct 9 17:20:15 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["883" "Monday" "9" "October" "2000" "17:08:57" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "16" "starship-design: Larry Niven: Making Somebody Pay (This is too good...)" "^From:" nil nil "10" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 883 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e9A091R14985 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 17:09:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e9A08v914950 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 17:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [206.163.182.194]) by clavin.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e9A08pS00479 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 17:08:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e9A08wq00897; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 17:08:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Message-ID: <14818.24089.229846.339538@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <001901c0324a$2c0f1ad0$0100a8c0@broadsword> References: <001901c0324a$2c0f1ad0$0100a8c0@broadsword> X-Mailer: VM 6.76 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by darkwing.uoregon.edu id e9A090914976 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design \(E-mail\)" Subject: starship-design: Larry Niven: Making Somebody Pay (This is too good...) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 17:08:57 -0700 L. Parker writes: > Afterward we’ll set up the fence and signs, treat your feet for dehydration > and frostbite, possible cuts and that mapwork of burst blood vessels you’ll > be bragging about into the next century. We’ll take close-up pictures of the > footprints to go with the video of your run, and drive you back to Moonbase. > (We can’t use a flying vehicle! Rocket exhaust would erase the footprints.) > Danger? No worse than skydiving. Well, not much. You can probably avoid most of the pressure differential problems by decompressing to an atmosphere of about 3 psi pure oxygen (the same partial pressure as in Earth's atmosphere) in the pressure suit. Then you probably won't even have much capillary damage. Then time your run for just after Lunar nightfall, when the surface is neither boiling hot nor freezing cold, and you can avoid burning and frostbite too. From VM Mon Oct 9 17:22:12 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["729" "Monday" "9" "October" "2000" "08:37:11" "+0000" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "24" "Re: starship-design: Larry Niven: Making Somebody Pay (This is too good...)" "^From:" nil nil "10" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 729 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id e9A0Dtj17852 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 17:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e9A0Dr917847 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 17:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (dialin55.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.55]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA25423 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 18:09:40 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <39E183B7.8C8DE94D@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.15 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <001901c0324a$2c0f1ad0$0100a8c0@broadsword> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: Re: starship-design: Larry Niven: Making Somebody Pay (This is too good...) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 08:37:11 +0000 > "Sell the right to leave your footprints in the moon," one said. "The > contract says that they?ll be roped off for all eternity, like Neil > Armstrong?s. Someone will bite." > > And I thought: barefoot. > Well how long before they find a set of REAL LIVE Big-Foot prints up there. Ben. PS. ---------------- [ Keep Off The ] [ Craters - use ] * [ the walkway ] [ Moon Management] * ---------------- [] * [] () /|_ /\___/\/\/-----\__________________/ \____ -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk From VM Tue Nov 14 10:17:36 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["7048" "Monday" "13" "November" "2000" "22:51:41" "-0600" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "152" "starship-design: Mining Space: Whither NASA?" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 7048 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id eAE4r4k02355 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 13 Nov 2000 20:53:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@gnt.com [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eAE4r0n02333 for ; Mon, 13 Nov 2000 20:53:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadsword (p457.gnt.com [204.49.91.73]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id WAA02169 for ; Mon, 13 Nov 2000 22:52:58 -0600 Message-ID: <002f01c04df6$bdc2fce0$0100a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design \(E-mail\)" Subject: starship-design: Mining Space: Whither NASA? Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 22:51:41 -0600 Mining Space: Whither NASA? Published: 2000 November 11 6:13 pm ET (2313 UT) By Leonard David Senior Space Writer SPACE.com While the "pickings" might be good for mining the Moon or crushing up asteroids, creating markets and making money on the space frontier currently is more prophet than profit. NASA may be the linchpin in the equation that describes the mining of space resources, said some international space experts who met this week at the Colorado School of Mines for a Space Resources Round Table. Participants are taking a short-term and far-future look at utilizing the abundance of available space resources scattered throughout the solar system. NASA is on the cusp of introducing a new strategy for supporting human space exploration, said John Mankins of NASA's advanced projects office. The agency is readying a 21st-century step-by-step plan to first push human crews to special locales far from Earth tagged libration points, then initial missions to the Moon, Mars and asteroids, Mankins said. "First we will go into Earth's neighborhood, then interplanetary, and then, eventually, for sustained presence in locations such as Mars," Mankins said. The hope is to find common ground between a space agency wish list of human exploration projects and initiatives that foster the commercial development of space, Mankins said. The strategy is to unfold over the next five to 10 years, Mankins said. "Some might be disappointed with the pace, but it's a way of getting off zero," he told the workshop audience. Mankins said the strategy includes new monies to spur "technology for human exploration and development of space" -- or THREADS for short. Step-by-step NASA's roster of technology needs, said Mankins, centers on six themes: Space resources development; space utilities and power; habitation and bioastronautics; space assembly, inspection and maintenance; exploration and expeditions; and space transportation. While encouraged about the NASA plan, Jim Blacic, research scientist at Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, said that the country has moved little over the years in terms of space-resource utilization. "We're more or less treading water. The main problem is that we don't have a market," Blacic said. "We need the primary customer, NASA, to step up and create a demand for the product. Commercial customers will follow. However, the key roadblock, as always, is the high cost of space transportation, especially Earth to low Earth orbit," Blacic said. History in the making Moving into space mimics the forces that shaped historic mining frontiers -- that is, going into a wilderness to exploit resources, said Dale Gray of Frontier Historical Consultants in Grand View, Idaho. His research has found that there is a direct link between the speed of frontier development and the height of the "launch bar" -- the amount of money needed to reach the moment a first product is sold. "The higher the bar, the slower the frontier will develop," Gray said. "Currently, space is a transportation frontier. It is similar in many respects to historic ocean-crossing or transcontinental transportation frontiers. To my knowledge, no frontier transportation system has ever come on line, on budget, and on time," Gray said. But as transportation costs drop, space will become a source of resources needed on Earth. "Ultimately, there is no way to predict what ‘killer application' will pull our civilization off the face of the Earth and into orbit," Gray said. People payloads Markets have replaced governments as the engines of technological change throughout the world, said Gregg Maryniak, executive director of the X Prize Foundation in St. Louis, Missouri. The X Prize is a competition between worldwide teams vying for a prospective $10 million purse in the hopes of kick starting suborbital space tourism. Maryniak said that space planes that routinely rocket back and forth from Earth orbit, like airline traffic of the day, will likely happen in the future. "But to have airline-like space operations, you need airline-like payloads, which is people," he said. Some 500 men and women have now traveled into space, with surveys showing a large and eager public ready to follow. More importantly, they appear ready to plunk down cold cash for a space-travel ticket. First, tens of people, then hundreds, followed by thousands of individuals are expected to cruise the orbital highways, Maryniak said. Over time, space hotels and habitats will dot near-Earth space. This, in turn, will create a market niche for life-support products, radiation shielding, as well as artificial gravity, Maryniak said. Space resources can be supplied on an economic basis to spur and maintain this space-tourism market, he said. Lure of lunar ice Space resource experts continue to be intrigued by the prospect that water is stashed at the Moon's poles. Tucked away in craters that never see sunlight, water would have been primarily brought to the lunar surface via impacting comets. If there, water could be processed to yield both rocket fuel and oxygen. That would be a resource bonanza, workshop participants said, ideal for supporting future Moon bases and other human space exploration goals. NASA's Lunar Prospector spacecraft that orbited the Moon in 1998-99 did spot rich fields of hydrogen. While some scientists infer from the probe's data that water had been detected, others contend that Lunar Prospector measured deposits of hydrogen implanted there by blasts of solar wind washing across the Moon's crater pocked face. "The question of what's at the permanently shadowed craters on the Moon is of great interest," said Gerald Sanders, a space resources expert at the NASA Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas. "Is it hydrogen, or water, a combination, or something else? That one answer could totally shape how we progress going back to the Moon," he said. Tons of water "I suspect that we have found water ice," said Alan Binder, director of the Lunar Research Institute in Tucson, Arizona. He was Lunar Prospector's principal investigator. Lunar Prospector found numbers of "cold traps," Binder said. These are small expanses of lunar surface that he believes hold water-ice crystals mixed in with surface materials. "What we are probably seeing in the data is water ice," he said. Binder told SPACE.com that he estimates on the order of 300 million metric tons of water is available on the Moon. But more knowledge is needed about where and how large permanently shadowed regions are, he said, as are lunar landers to conduct up-close-and-personal look-sees into those resource-laden spots. A strong proponent for a commercial return to the Moon, Binder said that the low-cost Lunar Prospector -- about a quarter the cost of other space-exploring probes like it -- produced a high scientific return, opening the doors for private lunar ventures and showing NASA it can be done for much less. "To wait for NASA to get us back to the Moon is futile," Binder said. From VM Thu Nov 16 10:13:41 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4363" "Monday" "13" "November" "2000" "17:17:11" "-0600" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "87" "starship-design: Mars sample return plan carries microbial risk, group warns" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 4363 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id eAG7cZQ08621 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 15 Nov 2000 23:38:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eAG7cXn08614 for ; Wed, 15 Nov 2000 23:38:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [206.163.182.194]) by clavin.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eAG7cS824726 for ; Wed, 15 Nov 2000 23:38:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) id eAG7cHo08267 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Wed, 15 Nov 2000 23:38:17 -0800 Message-ID: <002001c04dc9$2c954840$0100a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Steve VanDevender \(E-mail\)" Subject: starship-design: Mars sample return plan carries microbial risk, group warns Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:17:11 -0600 Mars sample return plan carries microbial risk, group warns November 7, 2000 Web posted at: 12:52 PM EST (1752 GMT) By Richard Stenger CNN.com Writer (CNN) -- Should NASA bring back Mars soil or rock to Earth? While the space agency hopes to accomplish that feat within the decade, the International Committee Against Mars Sample Return (ICAMSR) warns it could infect Earth with an interplanetary plague. NASA unveiled in October a wish list of unmanned missions to Mars in the early 21st century, culminating in several roundtrip flights that would bring home multi-kilogram chunks of the red planet. Terrestrial scientists would poke and prod the samples for evidence of past or present microbial life. ICAMSR, a group of professional scientists and amateur space enthusiasts, thinks there is a chance that earthlings might find more than they bargained for. A Mars microbe could wreak havoc on terrestrial species, which would have no natural defenses against the alien invaders. "If we make one mistake it could mean the extinction -- maybe for our species, or maybe another, for instance bumble bees or photoplankton, which are a huge part of our ecology," said ICAMSR founder Barry DiGregorio. Many planetary scientists dismiss the risks as unwarranted or highly exaggerated, saying the surface of Mars is most likely lifeless, anyway. Moreover, the samples, once recovered from protective canisters that land via parachute in the American desert, would be contained in laboratories and handled as if they contained deadly and highly infectious organisms. "NASA is taking the necessary precautions," said John Rummel, NASA's planetary protection officer. The returned samples will be "kept in a controlled environment with as many precautions as possible." Rummel points out that the Earth naturally receives geological samples from Mars all the time. Dozens or hundreds of kilograms of martian meteorites hit the planet each year. If martian microbes exist they would have invaded Earth long ago, inoculating terrestrial life forms in the process, according to Rummel and other planetary scientists. DiGregorio remains undaunted. "This is a great fallacy and it's unscientific as well," he said. In fact, DiGregorio, the author of "Mars: The Living Planet," suggests epidemics that originate in space might have already taken place. Mass extinctions over the ages have been tied to giant meteorite or comet strikes. But such cataclysms could perhaps be more fully explained, he said, if science considers the possibility that extra-terrestrial viruses played a role, for example when the age of the dinosaurs ended 65 million years ago. "The dinosaurs did not die out that day. It took 2.5 million years for them to go extinct. If the dinosaurs survived the initial impact, why didn't they go on?" DiGregorio said. Many are skeptical of DiGregorio, but fellow ICAMSR members include a handful of prominent scientists, like Chandra Wickramasinghe, one of the first to put forward the increasingly accepted theory that complex organic molecules riddle deep space. Another is Gilbert Levin, who designed experiments to detect life for Russian and U.S. Mars missions. Though most of his peers concluded otherwise, Levin still holds that the robot tests he coordinated on the 1976 Viking lander indicated the presence of living organisms on Mars. DiGregorio cites Levin's work as evidence that robots should poke around more for life on Mars before they return to Earth with samples. Yet NASA plans to forego life detection experiments on missions for the next 15 years or so. Only a European lander called Beagle 2 will sniff the planet for signs of life. It is scheduled to arrive on the red planet in about three years. But NASA's Rummel said such tests would be insufficient. If microbes do exist on Mars, experiments based on human understanding of life might be too limited to detect them. "Tests on Mars for life are not necessary because if it tests negative, it still doesn't mean there is no life. And if it's positive, you cannot possibly take more precautions than NASA plans," he said. Such assurances do little to placate DiGregorio. "We simply do not have the technology or the means yet to pull off a safe sample return mission," he said. "Can we afford to make a mistake with this, something that might carry a deadly virus?" From VM Thu Nov 16 10:13:41 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["631" "Wednesday" "15" "November" "2000" "17:46:06" "+0000" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "14" "Re: starship-design: Mars sample return plan carries microbial risk, group warns" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 631 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id eAGH6nU27533 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 16 Nov 2000 09:06:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eAGH6kn27405 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2000 09:06:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (dialin45.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.45]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA14536 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2000 09:58:30 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3A12CBDE.BED1605C@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.15 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <002001c04dc9$2c954840$0100a8c0@broadsword> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: Re: starship-design: Mars sample return plan carries microbial risk, group warns Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:46:06 +0000 "L. Parker" wrote: > > Mars sample return plan carries microbial risk, group warns I think the risk of Martian life is very low. Other than a BLOB like attack from some swamp. Any martian life would be to well adapted what ever environment it lives in to survive on earth.Note I think once people go to Mars they should have the opportunity to stay there rather than return to Earth.Ben. PS. I hope this does not affect my Martian Property land prices.:) -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk From VM Thu Nov 16 16:37:20 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1528" "Thursday" "16" "November" "2000" "17:26:56" "-0600" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "39" "RE: starship-design: Mars sample return plan carries microbial risk, group warns" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1528 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id eAGNRvc18061 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 16 Nov 2000 15:27:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@gnt.com [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eAGNRtn18034 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2000 15:27:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadsword (p446.gnt.com [204.49.91.62]) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id RAA26962; Thu, 16 Nov 2000 17:27:21 -0600 Message-ID: <004901c05024$cf746390$0100a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 In-Reply-To: <3A12CBDE.BED1605C@jetnet.ab.ca> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "'Ben Franchuk'" , Subject: RE: starship-design: Mars sample return plan carries microbial risk, group warns Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 17:26:56 -0600 This was a major topic of discussion some time ago, and worth revisiting, which is why I posted it. Besides, it has been slow on this group lately... Seriously though, I think the greater danger is not from indigenous life forms (those which are indigenous to Mars that is) but rather from something which we import to Mars, which then mutates due to Mars' higher irradiation and then gets shipped back to Earth. Such a life form would be adapted to terrestrial prey, which since it is a mutation, may be defenseless. Lee > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu > [mailto:owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu]On Behalf Of Ben > Franchuk > Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 11:46 AM > To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu > Subject: Re: starship-design: Mars sample return plan carries > microbial > risk, group warns > > > "L. Parker" wrote: > > > > Mars sample return plan carries microbial risk, group warns > > I think the risk of Martian life is very low. Other than a BLOB like > attack from some swamp. Any martian life would be to well adapted > what ever environment it lives in to survive on earth.Note I think > once people go to Mars they should have the opportunity to stay there > rather than return to Earth.Ben. > PS. I hope this does not affect my Martian Property land prices.:) > -- > "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... > We borrow it from our children." > "Luna family of Octal Computers" > http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk From VM Fri Nov 17 14:00:18 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["305" "Friday" "17" "November" "2000" "15:41:00" "-0600" "Kyle R. Mcallister" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "8" "starship-design: Mir being brought down?" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 305 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id eAHLkpw21678 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:46:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eAHLkon21667 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:46:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunherald.infi.net (A010-0145.PSGL.splitrock.net [64.196.252.145]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA04264 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 16:46:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3A15A5EC.2261D97E@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Mir being brought down? Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:41:00 -0600 Hello All: I heard that Mir is supposed to be 'brought down' (burned up in atmosphere) in or around February. The last I heard, the Russians were planning to renovate it and use it for a few more years. ??? Anyone know what caused them to change their minds? Or have I heard wrong? --Kyle R. Mcallister From VM Fri Nov 17 16:38:21 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["599" "Friday" "17" "November" "2000" "19:20:10" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "18" "Re: starship-design: Mir being brought down?" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 599 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id eAI0KdR02619 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 16:20:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-r11.mail.aol.com (imo-r11.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.65]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eAI0Kbn02581 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 16:20:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-r11.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.33.) id 7.6c.4fd8ab7 (3875); Fri, 17 Nov 2000 19:20:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <6c.4fd8ab7.2747253a@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 28 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: stk@sunherald.infi.net, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Mir being brought down? Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 19:20:10 EST In a message dated 11/17/00 3:53:39 PM, stk@sunherald.infi.net writes: >Hello All: > >I heard that Mir is supposed to be 'brought down' (burned up in >atmosphere) in or around February. The last I heard, the Russians were >planning to renovate it and use it for a few more years. ??? Anyone know >what caused them to change their minds? Or have I heard wrong? > >--Kyle R. Mcallister You heard right. Best guess they didn't want to say they might bring it down, for fear it would scare away investors. But they didn't get any anyway, so they can't afford to renovate and maintain it. Kelly From VM Fri Nov 17 17:07:47 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2891" "Friday" "17" "November" "2000" "19:58:38" "EST" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" "STAR1SHIP@aol.com" nil "70" "Re: starship-design: Mir being brought down?" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2891 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id eAI0wqG20440 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 16:58:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-d04.mx.aol.com (imo-d04.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.36]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eAI0wpn20418 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 16:58:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from STAR1SHIP@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.33.) id z.dd.c66299a (4213); Fri, 17 Nov 2000 19:58:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_dd.c66299a.27472e3e_boundary" Content-Disposition: Inline X-Mailer: Unknown sub 171 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: STAR1SHIP@aol.com From: STAR1SHIP@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: KellySt@aol.com CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Mir being brought down? Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 19:58:38 EST --part1_dd.c66299a.27472e3e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/17/00 4:24:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, KellySt@aol.com writes: > In a message dated 11/17/00 3:53:39 PM, stk@sunherald.infi.net writes: > > >Hello All: > > > >I heard that Mir is supposed to be 'brought down' (burned up in > >atmosphere) in or around February. The last I heard, the Russians were > >planning to renovate it and use it for a few more years. ??? Anyone know > >what caused them to change their minds? Or have I heard wrong? > > > >--Kyle R. Mcallister > > > You heard right. Best guess they didn't want to say they might bring it > down, for fear it would scare away investors. But they didn't get any > anyway, so they can't afford to renovate and maintain it. > > Kelly > Duh! Pardon my igorance, but it would seem a simple solution to join MIR with our station and when an old space shuttle is on it's last flight send two joining a empty shuttle and returning the crew on the second. Volume of space station is increased about 4 fold and maybe room for me. Cost per pound to earth orbit is a limiting factor so it would seem what goes up does not have to come down. Tom --part1_dd.c66299a.27472e3e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/17/00 4:24:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, KellySt@aol.com
writes:


In a message dated 11/17/00 3:53:39 PM, stk@sunherald.infi.net writes:

>Hello All:
>
>I heard that Mir is supposed to be 'brought down' (burned up in
>atmosphere) in or around February. The last I heard, the Russians were
>planning to renovate it and use it for a few more years. ??? Anyone know
>what caused them to change their minds? Or have I heard wrong?
>
>--Kyle R. Mcallister


You heard right.  Best guess they didn't want to say they might bring it
down, for fear it would scare away investors.  But they didn't get any
anyway, so they can't afford to renovate and maintain it.

Kelly

Duh!
Pardon my igorance, but it would seem a simple solution to join MIR with our
station and when an old space shuttle is on it's last flight send two joining
a empty shuttle and returning the crew on the second. Volume of space station
is increased about 4 fold and maybe room for me. Cost per pound to earth
orbit is a limiting factor so it would seem what goes up does not have to
come down.
Tom

--part1_dd.c66299a.27472e3e_boundary-- From VM Mon Nov 20 10:07:35 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1615" "Friday" "17" "November" "2000" "23:30:33" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "52" "Re: starship-design: Mir being brought down?" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1615 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id eAI4UmP03227 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 20:30:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eAI4Uln03122 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 20:30:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.33.) id z.2b.d51d07c (4220) for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 23:30:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <2b.d51d07c.27475fe9@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 28 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Mir being brought down? Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 23:30:33 EST In a message dated 11/17/00 7:00:01 PM, STAR1SHIP@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 11/17/00 4:24:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, KellySt@aol.com > >writes: > > >> In a message dated 11/17/00 3:53:39 PM, stk@sunherald.infi.net writes: >> >> >Hello All: >> > >> >I heard that Mir is supposed to be 'brought down' (burned up in >> >atmosphere) in or around February. The last I heard, the Russians were >> >planning to renovate it and use it for a few more years. ??? Anyone >know >> >what caused them to change their minds? Or have I heard wrong? >> > >> >--Kyle R. Mcallister >> >> >> You heard right. Best guess they didn't want to say they might bring >it >> down, for fear it would scare away investors. But they didn't get any > >> anyway, so they can't afford to renovate and maintain it. >> >> Kelly >> >Duh! >Pardon my igorance, but it would seem a simple solution to join MIR with >our >station and when an old space shuttle is on it's last flight send two joining > >a empty shuttle and returning the crew on the second. Volume of space station > >is increased about 4 fold and maybe room for me. Cost per pound to earth > >orbit is a limiting factor so it would seem what goes up does not have >to >come down. >Tom Except Mir is a peace of junk, and considered to hazardous. Aside from the crash and fires, its corroding. So they aren't sure how long the pressure vessel can hold up. Also the systems inside are getting pretty bad. What good does docking an old shuttle do? They don't have much internal space, and their systems aren't designed for very long duration flights. Kelly From VM Mon Nov 20 10:07:35 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1450" "Sunday" "19" "November" "2000" "19:09:06" "+0200" "Ctrl_E" "ctrl_e@creator.dp.ua" nil "35" "Re: starship-design: Mir being brought down?" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1450 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id eAJHcnq27991 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 09:38:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from huron.dnepr.net.ua ([195.248.180.242]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eAJHcin27981 for ; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 09:38:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from ontario.dnepr.net.ua (ontario.dnepr.net.ua [195.248.180.33]) by huron.dnepr.net.ua (8.10.1/8.10.1g/) with ESMTP id eAJHbV462012 for ; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 19:37:32 +0200 (EET) Received: from mtty2.dnepr.net.ua (mtty2.dnepr.net.ua [195.248.180.68]) by ontario.dnepr.net.ua (8.9.3/8.9.3z) with ESMTP id TAA80322 for ; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 19:37:30 +0200 (EET) X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.38e) UNREG / CD5BF9353B3B7091 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <8797.001119@creator.dp.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ctrl_E From: Ctrl_E Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Mir being brought down? Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 19:09:06 +0200 In a message dated 11/17/00 3:53:39 PM, stk@sunherald.infi.net writes: >Hello All: >I heard that Mir is supposed to be 'brought down' (burned up in >atmosphere) in or around February. The last I heard, the Russians were >planning to renovate it and use it for a few more years. ??? Anyone >know >what caused them to change their minds? Or have I heard wrong? > >--Kyle R. Mcallister >> > You heard right. Best guess they didn't want to say they might bring >it >> down, for fear it would scare away investors. But they didn't get any >> anyway, so they can't afford to renovate and maintain it. >> >> Kelly The matter is, in fact, that the russians are not going to supply their space research adminisration with finances enough to maintain Mir on orbit. Russian military officials (you know, all the russian space property is managed by militiants, as it was long before during Soviet times) claim that 'Mir can still be held in order, though it wasn't initially designed to remain operational for such a long period of 14 years', but '...its renovation and maintenance does cost approximatedly 200 million dollars per year (of course, they didn't actually say 'dollars'), so, our budget is not able to cope with such an amount. Mir project will be now stopped to clear the way (i.e. funds) for newer and advanced technologies'. Russians suppose to bury Mir into the abyss of the Pacific to the end of February. mailto:ctrl_e@creator.dp.ua From VM Mon Nov 20 10:07:35 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["356" "Monday" "20" "November" "2000" "09:29:25" "-0800" "John Lambert" "pat_buchanans_smell@go.com" nil "8" "starship-design: ABCNEWS.com on space travel" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 356 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id eAKHTdN13667 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:29:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta01f.seamail.go.com (mta01f.seamail.go.com [204.202.140.193]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eAKHTcn13657 for ; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:29:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from gomailjtp01 (jtp01.seamail.go.com [10.212.0.161]) by mta01.seamail.go.com (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.4.0.2000.05.17.04.13.p6) with SMTP id <0G4C009N7399NK@mta01.seamail.go.com> for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:29:33 -0800 (PST) Message-id: <4940797.974741365328.JavaMail.pat_buchanans_smell@gomailjtp01> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: GoMail 3.0.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Precedence: bulk Reply-To: John Lambert From: John Lambert Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: ABCNEWS.com on space travel Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:29:25 -0800 (PST) I don't know if anyone caught this, but I was wondering what peopl ethought of Dr. Michio Kaku's discussio of interstellar travel on: http://abcnews.go.com/onair/correspondents/wallace/internetexpose/ ___________________________________________________ GO.com Mail Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com From VM Mon Nov 20 12:51:20 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["311" "Monday" "20" "November" "2000" "12:39:43" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "7" "starship-design: ABCNEWS.com on space travel" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 311 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id eAKKe9P01694 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 12:40:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eAKKe8n01661 for ; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 12:40:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [206.163.182.194]) by clavin.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eAKKe5N00257; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 12:40:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) id eAKKdjC27907; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 12:39:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14873.35855.961881.322619@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <4940797.974741365328.JavaMail.pat_buchanans_smell@gomailjtp01> References: <4940797.974741365328.JavaMail.pat_buchanans_smell@gomailjtp01> X-Mailer: VM 6.84 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: John Lambert Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: ABCNEWS.com on space travel Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 12:39:43 -0800 John Lambert writes: > I don't know if anyone caught this, but I was wondering what peopl ethought of Dr. Michio Kaku's discussio of interstellar travel on: > > http://abcnews.go.com/onair/correspondents/wallace/internetexpose/ I can't find any reference to Michio Kaku or interstellar travel at that URL. From VM Mon Nov 20 15:24:16 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["855" "Monday" "20" "November" "2000" "18:11:57" "-0500" "Curtis Manges" "curtismanges@netscape.net" nil "26" "[Fwd: starship-design: ABCNEWS.com on space travel]" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 855 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id eAKNCGS11682 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 15:12:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-r08.mx.aol.com (imo-r08.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.8]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eAKNCEn11671 for ; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 15:12:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from curtismanges@netscape.net by imo-r08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.33.) id z.e7.2e0402 (16214) for ; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 18:11:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from netscape.com (aimmail11.aim.aol.com [205.188.144.203]) by air-in01.mx.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 18:11:58 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <7265822A.30200503.74D2F445@netscape.net> X-Mailer: Franklin Webmailer 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Reply-To: curtismanges@netscape.net (Curtis Manges) From: curtismanges@netscape.net (Curtis Manges) Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: [Fwd: starship-design: ABCNEWS.com on space travel] Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 18:11:57 -0500 -------- Original Message -------- Subject: starship-design: ABCNEWS.com on space travel Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 12:39:43 -0800 From: Steve VanDevender Reply-To: Steve VanDevender To: John Lambert Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu References: <4940797.974741365328.JavaMail.pat_buchanans_smell@gomailjtp01> John Lambert writes: > I don't know if anyone caught this, but I was wondering what peopl ethought of Dr. Michio Kaku's discussio of interstellar travel on: > > http://abcnews.go.com/onair/correspondents/wallace/internetexpose/ I can't find any reference to Michio Kaku or interstellar travel at that URL. That interview won't be available till the 22nd. Stay tuned if you care; just don't forget that it's ABC News. Curtis -- the truth is out there -- WWW.FEARBUSH.COM From VM Mon Dec 4 20:35:15 2000 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["327" "Sunday" "3" "December" "2000" "23:21:43" "+0000" "Ben Franchuk" "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" nil "7" "starship-design: A nice link on Anti-matter drives." "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "starship-design: A nice link on Anti-matter drives." nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 327 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id eB40JPB07514 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 2000 16:19:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from main.jetnet.ab.ca (root@jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.11.66]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eB40JKl07502 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2000 16:19:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from jetnet.ab.ca (dialin46.jetnet.ab.ca [207.153.6.46]) by main.jetnet.ab.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA08429 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 2000 17:09:06 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3A2AD587.D07A95BC@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.15 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ben Franchuk From: Ben Franchuk Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu" Subject: starship-design: A nice link on Anti-matter drives. Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 23:21:43 +0000 http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/213.web.stuff/Scott%20Kircher/index.html Now all we need is some solar powered antimatter factories in orbit around the sun. -- "We do not inherit our time on this planet from our parents... We borrow it from our children." "Luna family of Octal Computers" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk