From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 1 06:43 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1243" "Tue" "1" "July" "1997" "08:36:02" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "31" "RE: starship-design: Go Starwisps" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id GAA07627 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 06:43:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA07617 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 06:43:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p20.gnt.com (x2p20.gnt.com [204.49.68.225]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA31028 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 08:42:58 -0500 Received: by x2p20.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC85FA.C45A4620@x2p20.gnt.com>; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 08:42:54 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC85FA.C45A4620@x2p20.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1242 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Go Starwisps Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 08:36:02 -0500 Antonio, The probes we are talking about would be travelling at relativistic velocities (0.9xx c) at these velocities it would be nearly impossible to synch the clocks no matter how good your lasers. Time runs at different rates a those velocities so even atomic clocks would not stay in synch. Now if you can keep them on the same vector but spread out across a wide volume of space it would work, but it would be easier to just build them in orbit around the sun, say about the asteroid belt or even further. As Kelly (or was it Kevin?) popinted out, a sufficiently large array spread out that far could see quite a bit of detail of the nearer stars without actually going there. My sketch for a planned exploration of the nearer stars included the use of large space borne telescopes to identify likely systems for priority in scheduling further robotic and manned missions. Lee Parker Of course, if a probe scope is nice, what about a multi-probe interferometric telescope (scopes being kept in sych through good lasers and atomic clocks).Its just an idea, but it will come true sometime next century. Antonio C T Rocha [L. Parker] Bohr moved in atomic circles while Schrodinger waved and Heisenberg hesitated. From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 1 07:05 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1368" "Tue" "1" "July" "1997" "16:03:03" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "41" "Re: starship-design: Why go to the stars?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id HAA11320 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 07:05:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.40]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA11302 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 07:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id QAA01890; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 16:03:03 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707011403.QAA01890@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1367 From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: starship-design: Why go to the stars? Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 16:03:03 +0200 (MET DST) > From: Antonio C T Rocha > > kyle wrote: > > > Greetings all: > > > > I think I should point out some reasons for why we should go to the > > stars: > > > > 1) Self Preservation > > 2) To honor the great explorers of the past > > 3) Its our nature to explore > > 4) To boldly go where no man has gone before... (Gene Roddenberry was > > right about that) > > > > And most of all: > > 5) To learn all that is learnable. > > > > Does anyone need better reasons? If so, I have none. > > > > Kyle Mcallister > > For the same reasons medieval Russian peasants fled to the woods? > (Maybe this falls under .1.) > - To get as far away as possible form: the Boyars orders, > foremen and henchmen; from the Csars Tax Collectors and press gangs, and > from the Zealots bonfires.... (and keep whatever honey I find, whatever > furs I trap, enjoy whatever I build, feed on whatever I hunt or raise > and sing whatever I feel like, when I feel like it). > Sure its optimistic, but its a reason too. > In other words: to open up frontiers. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ That's the best, I think! Sums up nicely all the particular reasons like that listed by Kyle and others. Though it is useful to elaborate the special cases too, just to explain what this opening of frontiers actually and practically means. -- Zenon From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 1 07:56 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["832" "Tue" "1" "July" "1997" "16:53:57" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "22" "RE: starship-design: Go Starwisps" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id HAA04246 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 07:56:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.40]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA04185 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 07:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id QAA02002; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 16:53:57 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707011453.QAA02002@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa Content-Type: text Content-Length: 831 From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, lparker@cacaphony.net Cc: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl Subject: RE: starship-design: Go Starwisps Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 16:53:57 +0200 (MET DST) > From: "L. Parker" > > I am about to shoot myself in the foot here... > > Personally, I would even volunteer to spend the rest of my life on a survey > ship just going from star to star, perhaps not ever returning to Earth in > several human lifetimes. I would even take a one way colony mission if I > KNEW there was habitable real estate at the other end. > > I know, I argued vehmenently against one-way missions and the reader > should try to distinguish my personal preferences from what I believe > is realistically possible. > I personally think that vehement arguing against was the real shot in the foot... Many things considered realistically impossible have been made possible by the people fighting for them instead of arguing against them, contrary to their preferences... -- Zenon From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 1 09:22 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["887" "Tue" "1" "July" "1997" "18:19:14" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "24" "starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id JAA28499 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA28481 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:22:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-030.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wj5gs-000GXwC; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 18:22:06 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 886 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 18:19:14 +0100 Antonio wrote, > For the same reasons medieval Russian peasants fled to the woods? > (Maybe this falls under .1.) > - To get as far away as possible form: the Boyars orders, >foremen and henchmen; from the Csars Tax Collectors and press gangs, and >from the Zealots bonfires.... (and keep whatever honey I find, whatever >furs I trap, enjoy whatever I build, feed on whatever I hunt or raise >and sing whatever I feel like, when I feel like it). > Sure its optimistic, but its a reason too. > In other words: to open up frontiers. > I dont know about you, but earth seems too crowded for my taste, and >more crowded by the minute. Indeed you'd open frontiers, but the difference with previous frontiers is that this one is sponsored and thus regulated before it starts. BTW. Writing this, I started wondering what would happen if people start a mutiny. Timothy From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 1 09:23 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2003" "Tue" "1" "July" "1997" "18:19:11" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "53" "starship-design: Re: Quantum Gravity" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id JAA28643 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA28607 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-030.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wj5gp-000GXsC; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 18:22:03 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 2002 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Quantum Gravity Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 18:19:11 +0100 Hi Zenon, >>I guess the article suggests that. However like Lee suggested, the cells >>may be streched, something that I haven't seen in cellular automation. > >I wonder what this stretching means for space quanta? >Can we "stretch" the energy quantum? Streching would mean changing the properties. Eg When (st)rings get streched, they get more rigid and information has to travel faster than in a sloppy loose string. >>(Indeed this doesn't change the speed of c locally.) >>I also wonder how one would incorporate effects like timedilation >>into cellular automation. > >I have no idea (yet ;-). I guess I've to stretch your imagination first :)) >>Speaking about time... How does this ring-universe see time? Is it >>continuous or discrete too (like in cellular automation). > >In the article time has been reported to be quantized too - >only then the "cellular automaton" vision and the Ca speed limit >make sense. Hmm, if Zeno had known this, he would never have had a paradox about the frozen movement: If you want to move 1 meter, you have to move 0.5 first, but then you have to move 0.25 first, ad infinitum. In his time he would have concluded that there is a smallest step, so movement isn't frozen. (Of course now we know about finiteness of infinite sums.) >>Maybe most mistakes will selfcontain. If you get uncontrolable mass/energy >>creation, you may create a blackhole which on its turn can loop ZPF around >>and separate the anomaly from the rest of the ZPF. >>Other errors may collapse to the lowest energy state (that of normal ZPF). >> >>Of course in local environments the effects are likely to be catastrophic. > >Probably many will do, but would there bee a guarantee >that none can lead to switching off the entire computer? The last few tens of billion years no one seems to have succeeded... >But all this is a speculation much more far-fetched >than the wildest Kyle ideas, I am afraid... ;-) OK, I get the hint ;) We'll close this subject soon. Timothy From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 1 09:59 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["554" "Tue" "1" "July" "1997" "09:59:39" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu" nil "12" "starship-design: Announcement: starship-design mailing list archive" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id JAA09939 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:59:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id JAA09919; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:59:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707011659.JAA09919@darkwing.uoregon.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.15p6 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 553 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Announcement: starship-design mailing list archive Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:59:39 -0700 (PDT) I have made an archive of the starship-design mailing list available for FTP from: ftp://ftp.efn.org/pub/users/stevev/starship-design/ Archived list postings are grouped and sorted by month; for example, postings from December, 1996 are in the file sd199612. Postings from the establishing of this mailing list in July 1996 through June 1997 are currently included. I have older archives of postings from the old Cc: list that I may get around to making available later, and I will try to update the archives monthly with each new month's postings. From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 1 15:46 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2722" "Tue" "1" "July" "1997" "19:29:33" "-0300" "Antonio C T Rocha" "arocha@bsb.nutecnet.com.br" nil "70" "Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA25625 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 15:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from srv1-bsb.bsb.nutecnet.com.br ([200.252.253.1] (may be forged)) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA25537 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 15:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Metacor.bsb.nutecnet.com.br (dl1186-bsb.bsb.nutecnet.com.br [200.252.253.186]) by srv1-bsb.bsb.nutecnet.com.br (8.8.5/SCA-6.6) with ESMTP id WAA10111 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:42:17 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33B984CC.6639E8F7@bsb.nutecnet.com.br> Organization: is unrealistic X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Antonio C T Rocha Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 2721 From: Antonio C T Rocha Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 19:29:33 -0300 Timothy van der Linden wrote: > Antonio wrote, > > > For the same reasons medieval Russian peasants fled to the woods? > > (Maybe this falls under .1.) > > - To get as far away as possible form: the Boyars orders, > >foremen and henchmen; from the Csars Tax Collectors and press gangs, > and > >from the Zealots bonfires.... (and keep whatever honey I find, > whatever > >furs I trap, enjoy whatever I build, feed on whatever I hunt or raise > > >and sing whatever I feel like, when I feel like it). > > Sure its optimistic, but its a reason too. > > In other words: to open up frontiers. > > I dont know about you, but earth seems too crowded for my taste, > and > >more crowded by the minute. > > Indeed you'd open frontiers, but the difference with previous > frontiers is > that this one is sponsored and thus regulated before it starts. > You are right, of course, and I agree - intellectually. I was probably distracted by visions of Phoenicians reaching South America and the Gulf of Mexico in the Iron Age, of Vikings reaching North America in the Middle Ages (maybe following fleeing Irish Monks) and of Settlers, exilees, and Indentured Servants seeting foot on the edge of a new world.Yes, these were only made possible _after_ chartered explorers had made the discoveries, usually at the Crowns service. This _is_, after all, still the first phase: exploration. It does require the funding and support (and submission to) a socially powerful entity. Sorry, I jumped the gun. :-) > BTW. Writing this, I started wondering what would happen if people > start > a mutiny. > > Timothy Ask any naval officer. ?Probably the same that would have happened before the 1800s: starvation adrift or survivors marooned on some barren rock. With discipline and order, and luck and nearby infrastructure, maybe - just maybe - they could go "pirate". Does humanity change? Of course, by 2050 psychology and knowledge of neurology/physiology/genetics might be capable of identifying "mutinous types" and exclude them from the proj., maybe even inducing "correct" behaviour in the rest (does humanity change?). This might be in the sponsors interest to resonably ensure their investment. It would probably be called something neutral, like "profile typing, selection, and orientation". Then again, long (two to five year) periods of hibernation might already be feasible, making it easier to ensure order without too much mind-bending. Therefore, selection based on 21st century psych profiles will probably avert any possibility of a "real" mutiny - unless the sponsor is willing to take chances. How are volunteers for service in the Poles chosen? Conditions could be similar? Antonio C Rocha From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 1 15:46 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1680" "Tue" "1" "July" "1997" "19:40:00" "-0300" "Antonio C T Rocha" "arocha@bsb.nutecnet.com.br" nil "55" "Re: starship-design: Go Starwisps" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA25648 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 15:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from srv1-bsb.bsb.nutecnet.com.br ([200.252.253.1] (may be forged)) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA25563 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 15:46:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Metacor.bsb.nutecnet.com.br (dl1186-bsb.bsb.nutecnet.com.br [200.252.253.186]) by srv1-bsb.bsb.nutecnet.com.br (8.8.5/SCA-6.6) with ESMTP id WAA10119 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:42:22 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33B9873F.D17F5D04@bsb.nutecnet.com.br> Organization: is unrealistic X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <01BC85FA.C45A4620@x2p20.gnt.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Antonio C T Rocha Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 1679 From: Antonio C T Rocha Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: Re: starship-design: Go Starwisps Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 19:40:00 -0300 L. Parker wrote: > Antonio, > > The probes we are talking about would be travelling at relativistic > velocities > (0.9xx c) at these velocities it would be nearly impossible to synch > the > clocks no matter how good your lasers. Time runs at different rates a > those > velocities so even atomic clocks would not stay in synch. > > Now if you can keep them on the same vector but spread out across a > wide > volume of space it would work, but it would be easier to just build > them in > orbit around the sun, say about the asteroid belt or even further. As > Kelly > (or was it Kevin?) popinted out, a sufficiently large array spread out > that far > could see quite a bit of detail of the nearer stars without actually > going there. > > My sketch for a planned exploration of the nearer stars included the > use of > large space borne telescopes to identify likely systems for priority > in > scheduling further robotic and manned missions. > > Lee Parker > > Of course, if a probe scope is nice, what about a multi-probe > interferometric telescope (scopes being kept in sych through good > lasers > and atomic clocks).Its just an idea, but it will come true sometime > next > century. > > Antonio C T Rocha > > [L. Parker] > Bohr moved in atomic circles while Schrodinger waved and Heisenberg > hesitated. Of course you re right. They probe-scopes would only be useful if set in place before the ships arrival, and being capable of transmitting data to, and being remotely controlled by the crew. As for a near-space or moon-based array, it would probably be quite able to compensate for dust and debris between us and nearby systems. Antonio C Rocha From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 2 08:07 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1639" "Wed" "2" "July" "1997" "17:02:23" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "42" "starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA15504 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:07:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA15457 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-028.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wjQy1-000GxRC; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 17:05:13 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1638 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 17:02:23 +0100 Antonio, >>Indeed you'd open frontiers, but the difference with previous >>frontiers is >>that this one is sponsored and thus regulated before it starts. > >You are right, of course, and I agree - intellectually. I was probably >distracted by visions of Phoenicians reaching South America and the Gulf >of Mexico in the Iron Age, of Vikings reaching North America in the >Middle Ages (maybe following fleeing Irish Monks) and of Settlers, >exilees, and Indentured Servants seeting foot on the edge of a new >world. >Yes, these were only made possible _after_ chartered explorers had >made the discoveries, usually at the Crowns service. Ah, now I understand your (and my) point better; As long as people are sponsored they will not really be able to be free from authority. But as soon as other less dependant people start coming in, there may indeed be an explosion of development. >This _is_, after all, still the first phase: exploration. It does >require the funding and support (and submission to) a socially powerful >entity. Yes, and since so much effort is involved there may be little room for people that are truely adventurous. >> BTW. Writing this, I started wondering what would happen if people >> start a mutiny. > >Ask any naval officer. ?Probably the same that would have happened >before the 1800s: starvation adrift or survivors marooned on some barren >rock. With discipline and order, and luck and nearby infrastructure, >maybe - just maybe - they could go "pirate". Does humanity change? Ah, yes I could have thought of that myself. I guess I was too intrigued (not inspired ;) by the idea itself. Timothy From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 2 11:12 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1720" "Wed" "2" "July" "1997" "13:11:24" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "43" "RE: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA28213 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28197 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p2.gnt.com (x2p2.gnt.com [204.49.68.207]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA04185 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:12:08 -0500 Received: by x2p2.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC86E9.89F889C0@x2p2.gnt.com>; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:12:05 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC86E9.89F889C0@x2p2.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by darkwing.uoregon.edu id LAA28199 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1719 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:11:24 -0500 Timothy and Antonio, Consider this scenario: A "sponsor" could be a government, a multi-national corporation or consortium, or it could be a company formed by the colonists, specifically for the purpose of equiping and sending a colony to another system. Something like "The Tau Ceti Development Corporation", or the "Chartered Procyon Expedition". Such groups would most likely be composed of people with common idealogies, interests or backgrounds. After all, what else were the Puritans who sailed to Plymouth if not a private company chartered for the express purpose of establishing a new colony. It is only a matter of scale... Lee Parker -----Original Message----- From: Timothy van der Linden [SMTP:TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl] Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 1997 11:02 AM To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? Ah, now I understand your (and my) point better; As long as people are sponsored they will not really be able to be free from authority. But as soon as other less dependant people start coming in, there may indeed be an explosion of development. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have seen the turnips singing By a lordly cabbage led; I have heard a dewdrop clinging To the rose that bowed her head; I have sniffed at a sonata, I have touched next Friday week; I have tasted a cantata I have smelt a sausage speak. Now of old if I had wildly Made the claims I do today I should soon, to put it mildly, Have been firmly led away; Doctors, acting with decision, Would have taken me in charge; Now they call it television -- And you see, I'm still at large! -- Lucio in the Manchester Guardian From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 2 11:12 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1703" "Wed" "2" "July" "1997" "13:11:35" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "45" "RE: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA28264 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28234 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:12:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p2.gnt.com (x2p2.gnt.com [204.49.68.207]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA04190 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:12:13 -0500 Received: by x2p2.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC86E9.8CFB1B60@x2p2.gnt.com>; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:12:11 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC86E9.8CFB1B60@x2p2.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1702 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:11:35 -0500 Antonio, For crew selection requirements you should probably look to the US submarine force for psych requirements. Colonists would be another matter. I doubt most "colonists" will be able to meet the same stringent requirements as crew members, nor that it would even be desirable for them to. Lee Parker -----Original Message----- From: Antonio C T Rocha [SMTP:arocha@bsb.nutecnet.com.br] Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 1997 5:30 PM To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? Timothy van der Linden wrote: Of course, by 2050 psychology and knowledge of neurology/physiology/genetics might be capable of identifying "mutinous types" and exclude them from the proj., maybe even inducing "correct" behaviour in the rest (does humanity change?). This might be in the sponsors interest to resonably ensure their investment. It would probably be called something neutral, like "profile typing, selection, and orientation". Then again, long (two to five year) periods of hibernation might already be feasible, making it easier to ensure order without too much mind-bending. Therefore, selection based on 21st century psych profiles will probably avert any possibility of a "real" mutiny - unless the sponsor is willing to take chances. How are volunteers for service in the Poles chosen? Conditions could be similar? "I am afraid the knockabout comedy of modern atomic physics is not very tender towards our aesthetic ideals. The stately drama of stellar evolution turns out to be more like the hair-breadth escapades in the films. The music of the spheres has a painful suggestion of -- jazz." -- Arthur S. Eddington, Stars and Atoms, 1926. From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 2 11:12 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["796" "Wed" "2" "July" "1997" "13:11:48" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "27" "RE: starship-design: Go Starwisps" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA28297 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:12:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28274 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p2.gnt.com (x2p2.gnt.com [204.49.68.207]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA04195 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:12:17 -0500 Received: by x2p2.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC86E9.8F78ECA0@x2p2.gnt.com>; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:12:15 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC86E9.8F78ECA0@x2p2.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 795 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Go Starwisps Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:11:48 -0500 Zenon, I know you've seen it before, but, read the sig... -----Original Message----- From: Zenon Kulpa [SMTP:zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl] Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 1997 9:54 AM To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; lparker@cacaphony.net Cc: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl Subject: RE: starship-design: Go Starwisps I personally think that vehement arguing against was the real shot in the foot... Many things considered realistically impossible have been made possible by the people fighting for them instead of arguing against them, contrary to their preferences... -- Zenon Long experience has taught me not to believe in the limitations indicated by purely theoretical considerations. These - as we well know - are based on insufficient knowledge of all the relevant factors." Guglielmo Marconi From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 2 11:12 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["861" "Wed" "2" "July" "1997" "13:11:56" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "27" "RE: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA28323 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28304 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p2.gnt.com (x2p2.gnt.com [204.49.68.207]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA04200 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:12:20 -0500 Received: by x2p2.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC86E9.91AA72A0@x2p2.gnt.com>; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:12:18 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC86E9.91AA72A0@x2p2.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by darkwing.uoregon.edu id LAA28310 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 860 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:11:56 -0500 Timothy, You are assuming that the masses are interested enough to mutiny. The meek truly shall inherit the Earth, the rest of us will have left...isn't that the nature of frontiers? Lee Parker -----Original Message----- From: Timothy van der Linden [SMTP:TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl] Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 1997 12:19 PM To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? Indeed you'd open frontiers, but the difference with previous frontiers is that this one is sponsored and thus regulated before it starts. BTW. Writing this, I started wondering what would happen if people start a mutiny. Timothy "It is a safe rule to apply that, when a mathematical or philosophical author writes with a misty profundity, he is talking nonsense." -- Alfred North Whitehead, An Introduction to Mathematics, 1948. From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 05:07 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1970" "Thu" "3" "July" "1997" "14:04:32" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "54" "starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id FAA08774 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:07:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id FAA08765 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-018.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wjkfU-000GxXC; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:07:24 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1969 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 14:04:32 +0100 Lee, You pictured the following: >A "sponsor" could be a government, a multi-national corporation or >consortium, or it could be a company formed by the colonists, specifically >for the purpose of equiping and sending a colony to another system. >Something like "The Tau Ceti Development Corporation", or the "Chartered >Procyon Expedition". Such groups would most likely be composed of people >with common idealogies, interests or backgrounds. After all, what else >were the Puritans who sailed to Plymouth if not a private company >chartered for the express purpose of establishing a new colony. >It is only a matter of scale... So is the difference between family hierarchy (parents-children) and state hierarchy (government-citizens). I know the comparison is really bad, but I think that "a matter of scale" is just not the right idea. Only if trip time is about a year and the costs are less than $10,000,000 per person (more likely even less than $1,000,000), then one gets closer to your scenario of the Puritains. To find a group with common idealogies and a common salery with more that 7 figures is not very likely to be big. Timothy =========================================================================== "Why go to the stars?" part II --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee, >You are assuming that the masses are interested enough to mutiny. Am I? I just wondered what the concequences are. >The meek truly shall inherit the Earth, the rest of us will have left... >isn't that the nature of frontiers? Well, the "wild" will go where they can satisfy their needs best. If you are a multimillionaire, I'm not so sure if your needs can be satisfied best near TC or near Sun. The wild will also stay near Earth. Having a nice holiday home on Mars or owning a space station (1 km diameter with your own laws) seems pretty wild too. And as usual, the meek will follow the wild after a while. Timothy From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 05:37 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["436" "Thu" "3" "July" "1997" "07:32:50" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "13" "RE: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id FAA12434 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:37:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id FAA12425 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 05:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p2.gnt.com (x2p22.gnt.com [204.49.68.227]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA10947 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 07:37:14 -0500 Received: by x2p2.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC8783.ECA47E40@x2p2.gnt.com>; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 07:37:14 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC8783.ECA47E40@x2p2.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 435 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 07:32:50 -0500 Timothy, You have a point about rich people might not want to leave Earth. But what about if some group like the Southern Baptists have a big TV telethon to raise money (something they are real good at) and build their own colony ship. I was assuming that it would be able to get there in a reasonable amount of ship time, a couple of years at most. Lee A sufficiently incompetent ScF author is indistinguishable from magic. From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 09:13 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["192" "Thu" "3" "July" "1997" "10:11:42" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "7" "Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id JAA26406 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA26390 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa3dsp2.gpt.infi.net (pa3dsp2.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.74]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA14806 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:11:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33BBDD4D.4DD0@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <01BC8783.ECA47E40@x2p2.gnt.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 191 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 10:11:42 -0700 L. Parker wrote: > > I was assuming that it would be able to get there in a reasonable amount of ship time, > a couple of years at most. Want to get there quick? Use my engine. T=2(D/a)^.5 From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 09:34 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2504" "Thu" "3" "July" "1997" "12:34:14" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "72" "Re: starship-design: Re: Go Starwisps" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id JAA05842 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout20.mail.aol.com (emout20.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.46]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA05821 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:34:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout20.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA10479; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:34:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970703123413_-559618236@emout20.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2503 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Go Starwisps Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:34:14 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 6/30/97 4:14:42 AM, TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) wrote: >Kelly, > >>>>I used to agree with this. But given you can probably gain about the same >>>>amount of info via super sized telescopes, and the robots would report back >>>>for decades (by then the whole projects likely to be obsolete). I'm >>>>woundering if robot probes aer very usefull? >>> >>>First of all you'd need rather big telescopes to resolve something like a >>>meter. Note that big can also mean two telescopes far apart (big means >>>something like 1E10 meters). >>>This number doesn't take into account that the telescope has to gather >>>enough light to make a visible image. It is likely that the two telescopes >>>that are far apart still need to be much bigger than anything we have on >>>Earth to give a bright enough image. >> >>How about thousands of scopes over hundreds or thousands of miles? ;) If we >>can mass produce striped down hubble telescopes. ( Say simple optics for a >>couple million dollars each? Like clemmintine technology.) Launch a >>thousand scattered over hundreds of thousands of miles of space. > >OK let me show: > >RAYLEIGH'S CRITERIA: > >sin(theta)=1.22 lambda/a > >sin(theta) is approximately equal to theta > >theta is apparoximately equal to d/R > >d/R=1.22 lambda/a -> d=1.22 R lambda/a > > > theta =diffraction limited beam convergence angle > r =separation between light source and telescope > d =detail you like to be able to resolve (meters) > a =diameter of the aperture > lambda=wavelength to be observed > >You suggest an aperture of say 3000 miles = 5.556E6 meters >lambda of green light 530 nm= 5.3E-7 meters >distance of 10 ly = 9.46E16 m > >d=1.22 * 9.45E16 * 5.3E-7 / 5.556E6 = 1.1E4 metres > >So the maximum detail would be roughly 11 kilometers. Enough to see clouds, >mountains, lakes, (cities). But not enough to see trees, (villages). > >>>Besides that having more detail is useful for the mission, it might spark >>>imagination of Earth's population and get some extra money. >> >>The photos would spark public interest. > >Well, with your huge telescope, the best picture they could produce for an >Earth sized planet would be a total planet image of about 1200x1200 pixels. > >Timothy Actually The largest scope I mentioned was Hundreds of thousands of miles across. Thou the calculations are a good Idea. To a degree you could scale up the scopes to any size nessisary. How big would it need to be? Kelly From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 09:34 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2637" "Thu" "3" "July" "1997" "12:34:13" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "81" "Re: starship-design: Go Starwisps" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id JAA05851 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:34:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout18.mail.aol.com (emout18.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.44]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA05826 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout18.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA07249; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:34:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970703123409_1757081284@emout18.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2636 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Go Starwisps Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:34:13 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 6/30/97 7:32:59 AM, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) wrote: >> From: KellySt@aol.com >> >> In a message dated 6/29/97 (Zenon Kulpa) wrote: >> >> [...] >> >Sorry, I would not risk my life with such only theoretically >> >working technology, even with Kelly giving me his word of honor >> >that it will surely work for the whole round-trip... >> >> What choice do you have? If the robots take 16-20 years to report back >> that they made it. By then the ship would be too dated to use. >> >But at least we will have much more real and reliable data >to be more sure the improvements will work too. Assuming the drives are related. >> Besides. Just because they made it once. Doesn't mean you, or they, >> will make it the next trip. >> >Of course you are right. But, at least for me, it would be more >convincing that only your word of honor >(no offense intended - I presume you will give it in good faith). Never trust, verify the data and plan for the worst. >> [...] >> >Personally, I consider just the colonization to be the ultimate practical >> >reason for space exploration (near-sol or interstellar). >> >> Colonies are never made and maintained for in the interest in making >> colonies. >> >So what? >They are made e.g. for reasons of survival... Irrelavent in this case since they would be dependant on Sol for survival. Actually coplonies are never made for survival of the species type reasons eaither, and such a colony wouldn't help that significantly. >> >Hence my scenario: >> >- robotis probes (to test adequately the technology and obtain >> > necessary data (necessary for further stages, >> > not for mere scientific curiosity) that are >> > hard to obtain by other means; >> >- one-way, outpost-building missions to selected targets; >> >- if the returns are convincing -- the follow-up colonization missions. >> > >> >If there will be enough people wanting to go there and back again >> >(round-trip enthusiasts), they may go too, why not, provided they find >> >the money (and technology) to build them luxury tourist liners ;-) >> > >> >-- Zenon >> >> Now that would be one hell of a grand tour! ;) >> >Boring, with all this years in black space... > >> For only 500 million dollars >> you can really get away from it all! >> >I would rather pay half that (in practice it will cost even less) >and go one-way instead, sparing the rest of my fortune on >materials and equipment needed for building a nice little cottage >over there... > >-- Zenon Sorry, would be colonists are nuked from orbit as part of the decontamination proceedure. ;) Kelly From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 09:35 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["750" "Thu" "3" "July" "1997" "12:34:23" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "30" "Re: starship-design: Why go to the stars?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id JAA05907 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:35:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout01.mail.aol.com (emout01.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.92]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA05875 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout01.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA07914; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:34:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970703123420_1893001028@emout01.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 749 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: stk@sunherald.infi.net, owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Why go to the stars? Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:34:23 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 6/29/97 10:01:07 PM, stk@sunherald.infi.net (kyle) wrote: >Greetings all: > >I think I should point out some reasons for why we should go to the >stars: > >1) Self Preservation >2) To honor the great explorers of the past >3) Its our nature to explore >4) To boldly go where no man has gone before... (Gene Roddenberry was >right about that) > >And most of all: >5) To learn all that is learnable. > >Does anyone need better reasons? If so, I have none. > >Kyle Mcallister 1 is reasonably irrelavent, certainly in the next few centuries. The others sum up to "we'ld like to". Agreed, but that never funded any project this size before, and is unlikely to in 2050. Besides, wsn't the question why colonize the stars? Kelly From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 09:35 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1074" "Thu" "3" "July" "1997" "12:34:05" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "29" "Re: starship-design: Go Starwisps" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id JAA05976 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:35:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout14.mail.aol.com (emout14.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.40]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA05966 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:35:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout14.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA19583; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:34:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970703123405_1826149828@emout14.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1073 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: stk@sunherald.infi.net, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, lparker@cacaphony.net Subject: Re: starship-design: Go Starwisps Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:34:05 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 6/29/97 9:30:51 PM, stk@sunherald.infi.net (kyle) wrote: >L. Parker wrote: >Lee Parker wrote: > >> 1) There are no nearby star travelling civilizations (possible) >> 2) There are no star travelling civilizations (unlikely) >> 3) Star travelling civilizations don't travel at near relativistic >> velocities >> 4) There is no life out there... >I have an addition: >5) The starfaring civilizations use gravity distortion FTL (like I >propose), which would produce little or no radiation. Then again, the >gamma ray bursters... > >Kyle Mcallister This leads back to the bigger SETI problem. If their were any star traveling civilizations; and if they went out, colonized/explored, and set out for the next stars. If the average 'wavefrount' of their exploreres moved at 1/10th light speed. They could cross the galaxy in a million years. Given they should have had billions of years to get here, and even slight biocontamination should leave noticable traces (their arn't any) then where the hell is everybody?! Kelly From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 10:15 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["430" "Thu" "3" "July" "1997" "11:13:11" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "17" "Re: starship-design: Why go to the stars?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id KAA21986 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA21973 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:15:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa3dsp2.gpt.infi.net (pa3dsp2.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.74]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA00380 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 13:13:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33BBEBB7.7DC4@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <970703123420_1893001028@emout01.mail.aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 429 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Why go to the stars? Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 11:13:11 -0700 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > 1 is reasonably irrelavent, certainly in the next few centuries. Not necessarily... > The others sum up to "we'ld like to". Agreed, but that never funded any project this > size before, and is unlikely to in 2050. I wouldn't be so sure. Things can happen if people get interested. > Besides, wsn't the question why colonize the stars? I suppose. But you have to go there first. Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 11:17 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["955" "Thu" "3" "July" "1997" "20:15:03" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "25" "starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Lee" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA16782 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA16721 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-027.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wjqS3-000HeSC; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:17:55 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 954 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Lee Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 20:15:03 +0100 Lee, >You have a point about rich people might not want to leave Earth. But what about >if some group like the Southern Baptists have a big TV telethon to raise money >(something they are real good at) and build their own colony ship. OK, they might succeed to transport a few dozen of people, but then what? If you need to spent so much effort to get away from authority, there must be other easier solutions as well. I reason for development is not just being free of authority, it is more likely that "being not easy, but being hard" will spark development. Hard situations do mean that you have to be more inventive to survive (or to live in luxury). This inventiveness combined with new views of the universe is what may result in spectacular development. I doubt if the Baptists really will discover new ways. They may discover that hard labour is essential to survive there. Ha, I guess that would be a real discovery for them ;) Timothy From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 11:18 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["194" "Thu" "3" "July" "1997" "20:15:02" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "11" "starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA17086 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA17012 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:18:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-027.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wjqS1-000HeOC; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:17:53 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 193 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 20:15:02 +0100 Kyle commented: >Want to get there quick? Use my engine. T=2(D/a)^.5 That still means more than 6 years to travel 10 ly. (assuming 1g acceleration) Too much for colonisation purposes. Tim From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 11:41 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["439" "Thu" "3" "July" "1997" "12:41:14" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "13" "Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA26520 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA26507 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa3dsp2.gpt.infi.net (pa3dsp2.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.74]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA04370 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:41:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33BC0059.BB8@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 438 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 12:41:14 -0700 Timothy van der Linden wrote: > > Kyle commented: > > >Want to get there quick? Use my engine. T=2(D/a)^.5 > > That still means more than 6 years to travel 10 ly. (assuming 1g acceleration) > Actually, its only 3.16 years to travel 10 ly. (The number I gave was for a round trip.) To Tau Ceti, one-way would be: 3.4496 years, round trip: 6.8992 years. The time makes more sense at farther distances. (1000ly 31.6 years to get there). From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 11:57 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["802" "Thu" "3" "July" "1997" "11:58:27" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "20" "Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA03187 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:57:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA03174 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:57:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [198.68.17.19]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA10393 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA19209; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:58:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707031858.LAA19209@tzadkiel.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <33BC0059.BB8@sunherald.infi.net> References: <33BC0059.BB8@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.15p6 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 801 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:58:27 -0700 kyle writes: > Timothy van der Linden wrote: > > > > Kyle commented: > > > > >Want to get there quick? Use my engine. T=2(D/a)^.5 > > > > That still means more than 6 years to travel 10 ly. (assuming 1g acceleration) > Actually, its only 3.16 years to travel 10 ly. (The number I gave was > for a round trip.) To Tau Ceti, one-way would be: 3.4496 years, round > trip: 6.8992 years. The time makes more sense at farther distances. > (1000ly 31.6 years to get there). Actually, I think your numbers are completely bogus because your equation isn't grounded in reality. Even if you are using some sort of FTL drive (and that FTL drive actually worked) it won't be immune to relativistic effects. FTL won't eliminate time dilation effects even if it did allow travel faster than light. From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 12:26 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1793" "Thu" "3" "July" "1997" "21:23:12" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "55" "starship-design: Into detail" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id MAA16184 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:26:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA16148 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:26:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-007.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wjrVz-000HhiC; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 21:26:03 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1792 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Into detail Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 21:23:12 +0100 Kelly, Regarding your questions: >Actually The largest scope I mentioned was Hundreds of thousands of miles >across. Ah, I must have read hundreds OR thousants. >Thou the calculations are a good Idea. To a degree you could scale >up the scopes to any size nessisary. How big would it need to be? Well a factor 2 bigger 300,000 miles instead of 3,000 miles will resolve objects of: d=1.22 * 9.45E16 * 5.3E-7 / 5.556E8 = 110 metres Besides Rayleigh's criteria, there is the point of brightness. To create a visible image on each separate telescope I need to know the minimal brightness (in Watt/m^2) that those CCD cameras can "see". I don't know this "minimal brightness", but assume that one needs at least 1 photon per pixel. Assuming that the planet we look at reflects 400 Watt per square meter (in the visible range), than at Sol we have only 400/(2 pi r^2) = 400/(2 pi 9.45E16^2) = 7.1E-33 Watt/m^2 (I use 2*pi*r^2 which is the surface of half a sphere over which the light is reflected) Luckely we didn't want 1 meter detail, but110 meter detail, so we have 110^2 more Watts here at Sol: (110^2)*7.1E-33=8.6E-29 Watt/m^2 A single photon has an energy of h*c/lambda=(1E-34)*(3E8)/(5.3E-7)=5.7E-20 Joule So that means about 1 photon per second per 6.6E8 square meter. Say we need 1E6 photons for a photograph (theoretical 1000x1000 pixels). We make a 1 second photograph. (Can't do longer, otherwise the planet has turned much more than 110 meters) Therfore we need an aperture surface of 1E6*6.6E8=6.6E14 square meters. Hmmm, that means a aperture radius of 14.5 kilometers. Most of my estimates have been quite optimistic, so it could well be that one needs a few orders bigger. Timothy P.S. If anyone has more hard data, I may be able to give a closer estimate. From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 13:10 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1677" "Thu" "3" "July" "1997" "14:09:53" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "37" "Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id NAA02911 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 13:10:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA02889 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 13:10:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa3dsp2.gpt.infi.net (pa3dsp2.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.74]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA15385 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:10:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33BC1520.30C8@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <33BC0059.BB8@sunherald.infi.net> <199707031858.LAA19209@tzadkiel.efn.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 1676 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 14:09:53 -0700 Steve VanDevender wrote: > Actually, I think your numbers are completely bogus because your > equation isn't grounded in reality. Even if you are using some sort of > FTL drive (and that FTL drive actually worked) it won't be immune to > relativistic effects. FTL won't eliminate time dilation effects even if > it did allow travel faster than light. You obviously haven't studied Alcubierre's paper. I on the other hand am limited in my knowledge of relativity. Therefore that makes us equal. If you would like it, I can give you Miguel Alcubierre's E-mail address. Relativity does not concern FTL travel. As a matter of fact, it doesn't even consider it. Placing a limit on lightspeed does not forbid FTL travel at all. Besides, the speed of light CAN be increased by many factors. Newtonian physics deals with low velocity. Relativity high velocity (near-c). What deals with FTL? FTL apparently is possible. We haven't figured it out yet. I know everyone will eat me alive for using not-so-exact terminology, but I ask everyone: have you sent a MACROSCOPIC object up to relativistic speed? Here's where I really get demanding: With an engine attached? I believe the answer is no. See my point? Steve: If you want to disagree with FTL, thats fine with me. I don't take it personally. Frankly, I just keep working on it. As I've said earlier, I will be posting a design for an FTL-driven starship. My co-designers are: Ben Bakelaar, and Kevin Houston. Much help and thanks to Kelly Starks. If IPS listened to FTL theory, and LeRC listened to FTL theory, than LIT needs to. Kyle Mcallister "The suppresion of hard ideas is not the road to knowledge" -Carl Sagan From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 13:20 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["152" "Thu" "3" "July" "1997" "14:20:13" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "11" "starship-design: Alcubierre's E-mail address" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id NAA06985 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 13:20:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA06935 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 13:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa3dsp2.gpt.infi.net (pa3dsp2.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.74]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA20881 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:20:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33BC178C.1E2C@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 151 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Alcubierre's E-mail address Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 14:20:13 -0700 Greetings: Well, I promised I'd post Miguel Alcubierre's E-mail address, so here it is: Moya@astro.cf.ac.uk It was in his webpage. Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 14:25 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2799" "Thu" "3" "July" "1997" "14:26:22" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "66" "Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id OAA02365 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA02353 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:25:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [198.68.17.19]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01751; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) id OAA19547; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:26:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707032126.OAA19547@tzadkiel.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <33BC1520.30C8@sunherald.infi.net> References: <33BC0059.BB8@sunherald.infi.net> <199707031858.LAA19209@tzadkiel.efn.org> <33BC1520.30C8@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.15p6 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 2798 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: kyle Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:26:22 -0700 kyle writes: > Steve VanDevender wrote: > > > Actually, I think your numbers are completely bogus because your > > equation isn't grounded in reality. Even if you are using some sort of > > FTL drive (and that FTL drive actually worked) it won't be immune to > > relativistic effects. FTL won't eliminate time dilation effects even if > > it did allow travel faster than light. > > You obviously haven't studied Alcubierre's paper. I on the other hand am > limited in my knowledge of relativity. Therefore that makes us equal. If > you would like it, I can give you Miguel Alcubierre's E-mail address. > > Relativity does not concern FTL travel. > As a matter of fact, it doesn't even consider it. > Placing a limit on lightspeed does not forbid FTL travel at all. Wrong. Did you actually read Ken Wharton's explanation of _why_ FTL is inconsistent with relativity? It's not something you can dismiss because you don't understand it. > Besides, the speed of light CAN be increased by many > factors. Which are not demonstrably relevant to space propulsion. > Newtonian physics deals with low velocity. Relativity high > velocity (near-c). What deals with FTL? FTL apparently is possible. We > haven't figured it out yet. Just as relativity did not invalidate Newtonian physics at low velocities, I do not expect any working FTL theory (should one be proven) to invalidate relativity in its domain. > I know everyone will eat me alive for using > not-so-exact terminology, but I ask everyone: have you sent a > MACROSCOPIC object up to relativistic speed? Here's where I really get > demanding: With an engine attached? I believe the answer is no. See my > point? Several astrophysical phenomena demonstrate relativistic effects on macroscopic objects that are completely consistent with the theoretical predictions. > Steve: If you want to disagree with FTL, thats fine with me. I don't > take it personally. Frankly, I just keep working on it. > > As I've said earlier, I will be posting a design for an FTL-driven > starship. My co-designers are: Ben Bakelaar, and Kevin Houston. Much > help and thanks to Kelly Starks. > If IPS listened to FTL theory, and LeRC listened to FTL theory, than LIT > needs to. If you spout nonsense in this forum, you will be called on it. That's all there is to it. > "The suppresion of hard ideas is not the road to knowledge" > -Carl Sagan You take this quote entirely out of the context and spirit in which it was offered. If you have a real FTL theory, then you can justify it by experiment. Until you've done so it's not science and it can't be used to build a working spacecraft. If you're feeling suppressed because I keep asking you to put up or shut up on your FTL imaginings, then too bad. From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 15:22 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3733" "Thu" "3" "July" "1997" "16:22:01" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "89" "Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA24519 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA24484 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa3dsp2.gpt.infi.net (pa3dsp5.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.77]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA11807; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 18:22:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33BC3419.62AB@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <33BC0059.BB8@sunherald.infi.net> <199707031858.LAA19209@tzadkiel.efn.org> <33BC1520.30C8@sunherald.infi.net> <199707032126.OAA19547@tzadkiel.efn.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 3732 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, Steve VanDevender Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 16:22:01 -0700 Steve VanDevender wrote: > Wrong. Did you actually read Ken Wharton's explanation of _why_ FTL is > inconsistent with relativity? It's not something you can dismiss > because you don't understand it. I read ALL my E-mail. Maybe it is inconsistent. There are things in nature that are incosistent with science (as we know it), but they still happen. > > Besides, the speed of light CAN be increased by many > > factors. > > Which are not demonstrably relevant to space propulsion. Untrue. Several ideas (which I won't even quote, since no one will listen) have shown such potential. Oh, Id like to ask: did blowing up the Bikini Atoll with an H-bomb show relavant potential for starship engines? Not at the time. See my point? > > > Newtonian physics deals with low velocity. Relativity high > > velocity (near-c). What deals with FTL? FTL apparently is possible. We > > haven't figured it out yet. > > Just as relativity did not invalidate Newtonian physics at low > velocities, I do not expect any working FTL theory (should one be > proven) to invalidate relativity in its domain. I don't wish relativity to be invalidated. But there can be additions. > > > I know everyone will eat me alive for using > > not-so-exact terminology, but I ask everyone: have you sent a > > MACROSCOPIC object up to relativistic speed? Here's where I really get > > demanding: With an engine attached? I believe the answer is no. See my > > point? > > Several astrophysical phenomena demonstrate relativistic effects on > macroscopic objects that are completely consistent with the theoretical > predictions. Oh, I see. I'm unsure of this: Do these phenomena have Engines? ONBOARD? > > > Steve: If you want to disagree with FTL, thats fine with me. I don't > > take it personally. Frankly, I just keep working on it. > > > > As I've said earlier, I will be posting a design for an FTL-driven > > starship. My co-designers are: Ben Bakelaar, and Kevin Houston. Much > > help and thanks to Kelly Starks. > > If IPS listened to FTL theory, and LeRC listened to FTL theory, than LIT > > needs to. > > If you spout nonsense in this forum, you will be called on it. That's > all there is to it. I have already been given permission to post my design. And my theories are NOT nonsense. Perhaps this trouble is due to the fact that I'm just a kid? > > > "The suppresion of hard ideas is not the road to knowledge" > > -Carl Sagan > > You take this quote entirely out of the context and spirit in which it > was offered. If you have a real FTL theory, then you can justify it by > experiment. Until you've done so it's not science and it can't be used > to build a working spacecraft. If you're feeling suppressed because I > keep asking you to put up or shut up on your FTL imaginings, then too > bad. Have we propelled objects, ARTIFICIAL objects up to .9XXC? No. Therefore that, if what you say is true, is not applicable to starship design. I know my ideas are speculative, but if we cannot speculate, then we are unworthy of being called scientists. No offense to anyone: You shoot down all my theories, but an even more speculative theory, the "cellular automaton universe", you do not attack. Something doesn't add up... I don't wish to dissapoint you, but you haven't made me feel like an unknowing idiot. Maybe I don't know as much as some in this group, maybe I'm not a colledge grad (yet), with a big degree behind me, but I'm not stupid. I'm beginning to feel a lot like Nicolaus Copernicus. And no, I won't shut up and be a nice little boy. I, unlike some people (I'm not refering to anyone in LIT, so don't get me wrong), am not easy to give up. Regards, Kyle R. Mcallister From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 16:31 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1428" "Wed" "2" "July" "1997" "00:40:59" "-0500" "\"Kevin \\\"Tex\\\" Houston\"" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "36" "starship-design: Mutiny, " "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id QAA18954 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:31:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mhub2.tc.umn.edu (0@mhub2.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.52]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id QAA18935 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:31:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by mhub2.tc.umn.edu; Thu, 3 Jul 97 18:30:52 -0500 Received: from pub-22-b-158.dialup.umn.edu by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Thu, 3 Jul 97 18:30:51 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33B9E9EA.6CC0@maroon.tc.umn.edu> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <33B984CC.6639E8F7@bsb.nutecnet.com.br> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Kevin \"Tex\" Houston" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 1427 From: "Kevin \"Tex\" Houston" Sender: owner-starship-design To: Starship design group Subject: starship-design: Mutiny, Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 00:40:59 -0500 Antonio C T Rocha wrote: > > Timothy van der Linden wrote: > > BTW. Writing this, I started wondering what would happen if people > > start a mutiny. > > > > Timothy > > Ask any naval officer. ?Probably the same that would have happened > before the 1800s: starvation adrift or survivors marooned on some barren > rock. With discipline and order, and luck and nearby infrastructure, > maybe - just maybe - they could go "pirate". Does humanity change? > Nonsense, They will be in direct line of sight the entire time. Communication might be slow, but it won't be a secret, everyone will know what happened. There'd be no way the mutineers could ever come back. That might happen on the hundreth trip, or maybe the tenth, but I don't think it will happen on the first. No matter whether we use FTL or STL, no one is going to be stopping in-between. that means to have a mutiny, it must happen in the target system. Since it's likely that we'd have a colony segment anyway, (in case of accident if for no other reason) then probably what would happen is the mutineers would be the ones who demanded to be left behind (and left alone) and let the loyalists go back to Earth. -- Kevin "Tex" Houston http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html Webmaster http://www.urly-bird.com/index.html "Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." A. Einstein From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 16:31 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1804" "Wed" "2" "July" "1997" "00:27:04" "-0500" "\"Kevin \\\"Tex\\\" Houston\"" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "47" "starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id QAA18958 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mhub2.tc.umn.edu (0@mhub2.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.52]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id QAA18939 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by mhub2.tc.umn.edu; Thu, 3 Jul 97 18:30:48 -0500 Received: from pub-22-b-158.dialup.umn.edu by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Thu, 3 Jul 97 18:30:47 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33B9E6A8.31C0@maroon.tc.umn.edu> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199707011403.QAA01890@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Kevin \"Tex\" Houston" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 1803 From: "Kevin \"Tex\" Houston" Sender: owner-starship-design To: Starship design group Subject: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 00:27:04 -0500 Zenon Kulpa wrote: > > > From: Antonio C T Rocha > > kyle wrote: > > > > > > I think I should point out some reasons for why we should go to the > > > stars: > > > > > > 1) Self Preservation > > > 2) To honor the great explorers of the past > > > 3) Its our nature to explore > > > 4) To boldly go where no man has gone before... (Gene Roddenberry was > > > right about that) > > > 5) To learn all that is learnable. > > > > > > Kyle Mcallister > > > > For the same reasons medieval Russian peasants fled to the woods? > > (Maybe this falls under .1.) > > - To get as far away as possible form: the Boyars orders, > > foremen and henchmen; from the Csars Tax Collectors and press gangs, and > > from the Zealots bonfires.... (and keep whatever honey I find, whatever > > furs I trap, enjoy whatever I build, feed on whatever I hunt or raise > > and sing whatever I feel like, when I feel like it). > > Sure its optimistic, but its a reason too. > > In other words: to open up frontiers. > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > That's the best, I think! > Sums up nicely all the particular reasons > like that listed by Kyle and others. > Though it is useful to elaborate the special cases too, > just to explain what this opening of frontiers actually > and practically means. Let's not forget "manifest destiny". After all, The immediate area (several LY) appears relatively empty, perhaps we are just life's way of spreading to other planets. Just as lungfish were life's way of gettign animals on land.. -- Kevin "Tex" Houston http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html Webmaster http://www.urly-bird.com/index.html "Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." A. Einstein From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 16:55 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5577" "Thu" "3" "July" "1997" "16:55:32" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "114" "Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id QAA26934 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:55:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA26905 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:55:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [198.68.17.19]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA22545 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:54:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) id QAA19918; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:55:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707032355.QAA19918@tzadkiel.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <33BC3419.62AB@sunherald.infi.net> References: <33BC0059.BB8@sunherald.infi.net> <199707031858.LAA19209@tzadkiel.efn.org> <33BC1520.30C8@sunherald.infi.net> <199707032126.OAA19547@tzadkiel.efn.org> <33BC3419.62AB@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.15p6 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 5576 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 16:55:32 -0700 kyle writes: > > > Besides, the speed of light CAN be increased by many > > > factors. > > > > Which are not demonstrably relevant to space propulsion. > > Untrue. Several ideas (which I won't even quote, since no one will > listen) have shown such potential. Oh, Id like to ask: did blowing up > the Bikini Atoll with an H-bomb show relavant potential for starship > engines? Not at the time. See my point? I guess you haven't seen the designs for interstellar spacecraft that actually use hydrogen bombs for thrust. The British Interplanetary Society floated one of the proposals. Just build a big durable plate, put your payload and a stack of H-bombs on one side, and every so often toss an H-bomb behind the plate and detonate it. Your point basically doesn't work because working hydrogen bombs, as a demonstration that it is possible to artificially induce nuclear fustion, _did_ show relevant potential for starship engines at that time. > > > I know everyone will eat me alive for using > > > not-so-exact terminology, but I ask everyone: have you sent a > > > MACROSCOPIC object up to relativistic speed? Here's where I really get > > > demanding: With an engine attached? I believe the answer is no. See my > > > point? > > > > Several astrophysical phenomena demonstrate relativistic effects on > > macroscopic objects that are completely consistent with the theoretical > > predictions. > > Oh, I see. I'm unsure of this: Do these phenomena have Engines? ONBOARD? These phenomena demonstrate that chunks of matter, not just subatomic particles, can travel at relativistic speeds and behave as predicted by theory. The crucial point is that relativistic motion is understood, experimentally verified, and even observed in natural phenomena. This makes it certain that it is possible to build a means to artificially accelerate objects to relativistic speeds. On the other hand, FTL is not theoretically supported, experimentally verified or naturally observed. This makes it pretty hard to argue that you can artificially induce FTL motion. Anyone who believes it is possible will have to demonstrate it working to be taken seriously in an engineering context. The summary of Alcubierre that I've seen (the abstract of his own paper) is that _if_ you could create "negative energy density", _then_ you could conceivably induce FTL motion. However, even he admits that such negative energy densities have not been created or observed, and that there is only a somewhat tenuous potential for them allowed by quantum mechanics. This is a long way from an engineering design, much farther than even exotic but physically accepted possibilities like antimatter propulsion. > > If you spout nonsense in this forum, you will be called on it. That's > > all there is to it. > > I have already been given permission to post my design. And my theories > are NOT nonsense. Perhaps this trouble is due to the fact that I'm just > a kid? I consider your theories too speculative to base a working enginnering design on. As far as I'm concerned your age doesn't matter, but the quality of your ideas does. > > > > > "The suppresion of hard ideas is not the road to knowledge" > > > -Carl Sagan > > > > You take this quote entirely out of the context and spirit in which it > > was offered. If you have a real FTL theory, then you can justify it by > > experiment. Until you've done so it's not science and it can't be used > > to build a working spacecraft. If you're feeling suppressed because I > > keep asking you to put up or shut up on your FTL imaginings, then too > > bad. > > Have we propelled objects, ARTIFICIAL objects up to .9XXC? No. Therefore > that, if what you say is true, is not applicable to starship design. I > know my ideas are speculative, but if we cannot speculate, then we are > unworthy of being called scientists. No offense to anyone: You shoot > down all my theories, but an even more speculative theory, the "cellular > automaton universe", you do not attack. Something doesn't add up... We have a rigorously tested set of physical laws that say it is entirely possible to accelerate mass to high fractions of c. These same laws don't allow mass to travel faster than c. > I don't wish to dissapoint you, but you haven't made me feel like an > unknowing idiot. Maybe I don't know as much as some in this group, maybe > I'm not a colledge grad (yet), with a big degree behind me, but I'm not > stupid. I'm beginning to feel a lot like Nicolaus Copernicus. And no, I > won't shut up and be a nice little boy. I, unlike some people (I'm not > refering to anyone in LIT, so don't get me wrong), am not easy to give > up. If FTL is possible and going to happen, then it won't happen just because you fervently wish it to be so. If you really believe it can be done, then build the device to do it. If you can even reliably make subatomic particles travel faster than c for extended periods in free space, then that will put FTL on a theoretical grounding more on a par with relativity. I don't expect you to "shut up and be a nice little boy", but I do think that any designs we come up with have to be rigorously justifiable. If a design requires technology that we don't have, then it needs to show how to create that technology. And if a design violates the known laws of physics, it has to show that those physics really are possible, hopefully in the same way that other scientific theories are verified: by experimental proof. From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 20:04 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["766" "Thu" "3" "July" "1997" "21:53:57" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "25" "RE: starship-design: Re: Go Starwisps" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA11656 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA11611 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p2.gnt.com (x2p10.gnt.com [204.49.68.215]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA19462 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:04:40 -0500 Received: by x2p2.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC87FD.18EA1180@x2p2.gnt.com>; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:04:37 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC87FD.18EA1180@x2p2.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Length: 765 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Re: Go Starwisps Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 21:53:57 -0500 Kelly, We can't even determine telescopically whether MARS can support life and it is practically next door. I don't want to seem like I'm being facetious, but I think a resolution of 1 meter at 10 light years is reasonable. We might be able to spot gross life forms at that resolution. Lee Actually The largest scope I mentioned was Hundreds of thousands of miles across. Thou the calculations are a good Idea. To a degree you could scale up the scopes to any size nessisary. How big would it need to be? Kelly ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Science has 'explained' nothing; the more we know the more fantastic the world becomes and the profounder the surrounding darkness." -- Aldous Huxley, 1925 From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 20:04 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["968" "Thu" "3" "July" "1997" "22:01:16" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "45" "RE: starship-design: Go Starwisps" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA11819 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:04:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA11767 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p2.gnt.com (x2p10.gnt.com [204.49.68.215]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA19471 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:04:48 -0500 Received: by x2p2.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC87FD.1DF4F640@x2p2.gnt.com>; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:04:45 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC87FD.1DF4F640@x2p2.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 967 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Go Starwisps Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:01:16 -0500 Kelly, Assuming the drives are related. [L. Parker] I wouldn't assume any such thing, probably the opposite... Never trust, verify the data and plan for the worst. [L. Parker] That is the point of multiple approaces to verifying the data BEFORE sending people. >They are made e.g. for reasons of survival... Irrelavent in this case since they would be dependant on Sol for survival. Actually coplonies are never made for survival of the species type reasons eaither, and such a colony wouldn't help that significantly. [L. Parker] No, they are made for reasons of politics, of prestige and of oppression. Sorry, would be colonists are nuked from orbit as part of the decontamination proceedure. ;) Kelly [L. Parker] Your'e kidding I hope? Lee "Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution." -- Albert Einstein From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 20:53 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1650" "Thu" "3" "July" "1997" "22:07:23" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "43" "RE: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Lee" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA21418 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA21407 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p2.gnt.com (x2p26.gnt.com [204.49.68.231]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA22667 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:52:59 -0500 Received: by x2p2.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC8803.D963B140@x2p2.gnt.com>; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:52:57 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC8803.D963B140@x2p2.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1649 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Lee Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:07:23 -0500 Timothy, They (the baptists) were just an example. But, I can imagine any number of groups coming up with reasons to leave in mass. Once you have made provision for a few dozen people it is only a small step to a few hundred, a little larger step to a few thousand. The first step is the biggest. There may even be an "economy of scale" that comes into play here. It may actually get easier to put together a mission of a few thousand people than a few dozen. Lee OK, they might succeed to transport a few dozen of people, but then what? If you need to spent so much effort to get away from authority, there must be other easier solutions as well. I reason for development is not just being free of authority, it is more likely that "being not easy, but being hard" will spark development. Hard situations do mean that you have to be more inventive to survive (or to live in luxury). This inventiveness combined with new views of the universe is what may result in spectacular development. I doubt if the Baptists really will discover new ways. They may discover that hard labour is essential to survive there. Ha, I guess that would be a real discovery for them ;) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- HOW TO COOK AN EGG -- Physics Edition "If you tie one of these eggs to the end of a string and whirl it round rapidly, and suddenly stop, the movement may perhaps be converted into heat, and then . . ." "And then the egg will be cooked?" "Yes, if the rotation has been swift enough. But how do you get the stoppage without breaking the egg?" -- Jules Verne, The School for Crusoes From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 20:53 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["378" "Thu" "3" "July" "1997" "22:10:38" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "15" "RE: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA21442 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:53:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA21431 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p2.gnt.com (x2p26.gnt.com [204.49.68.231]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA22677 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:53:07 -0500 Received: by x2p2.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC8803.DEB1B980@x2p2.gnt.com>; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:53:06 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC8803.DEB1B980@x2p2.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 377 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:10:38 -0500 Kyle, Actually, I would consider 3.16 years too long to go 1000 light years. How about 3 months? THAT is reasonable. Lee -----Original Message----- From: kyle [SMTP:stk@sunherald.infi.net] Sent: Thursday, July 03, 1997 2:41 PM To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle << File: ATT00004.txt; charset = koi8-r >> From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 20:53 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["816" "Thu" "3" "July" "1997" "22:15:15" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "25" "RE: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA21464 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA21453 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 20:53:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p2.gnt.com (x2p26.gnt.com [204.49.68.231]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA22683 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:53:11 -0500 Received: by x2p2.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC8803.E1944000@x2p2.gnt.com>; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:53:11 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC8803.E1944000@x2p2.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 815 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:15:15 -0500 Steve, Bogus or not, its not good enough for 1000 light years. For FTL to take 31 years is ridiculous. Might as well go sublight at relativistic velocities. It only take 12 years (ship time) that way. Lee Actually, I think your numbers are completely bogus because your equation isn't grounded in reality. Even if you are using some sort of FTL drive (and that FTL drive actually worked) it won't be immune to relativistic effects. FTL won't eliminate time dilation effects even if it did allow travel faster than light. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It is a safe rule to apply that, when a mathematical or philosophical author writes with a misty profundity, he is talking nonsense." -- Alfred North Whitehead, An Introduction to Mathematics, 1948. From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 22:00 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["943" "Thu" "3" "July" "1997" "22:59:43" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "23" "Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id WAA03587 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA03525 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 21:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa3dsp5.gpt.infi.net (pa3dsp5.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.77]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA06168; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:59:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33BC914F.51F4@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <01BC8803.E1944000@x2p2.gnt.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 942 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, "L. Parker" Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 22:59:43 -0700 L.Parker wrote: > > Bogus or not, its not good enough for 1000 light years. For FTL to take 31 years > is ridiculous. Might as well go sublight at relativistic velocities. It only take 12 > years (ship time) that way. > 31 years (earth time) to travel 1000 ly is not unreasonable. If you use relativistic travel, sure you'd get there in less SHIP time, but it'd take over 1000 years earth time. Try getting funding for that! 31 years ain't that long. You could go faster if you wanted to (just increase the ZPE generator section, explained in my upcoming design). My numbers aren't bogus, but come from "the man who started it all", Miguel Alcubierre. I'm simply applying his theory to design. He deserves the real credit. If you try going faster than 1g, even for FTL, its gonna be hard on the ship's integrity. So make the ship more durable, which increases weight, which increases energy usage...but not impossible. Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 22:02 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["224" "Thu" "3" "July" "1997" "23:02:34" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "10" "Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id WAA04035 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA04026 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:02:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa3dsp5.gpt.infi.net (pa3dsp5.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.77]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA08470; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 01:02:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33BC91FA.58F@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <01BC8803.DEB1B980@x2p2.gnt.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 223 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, "L. Parker" Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 23:02:34 -0700 L. Parker wrote: > > Kyle, > > Actually, I would consider 3.16 years too long to go 1000 light years. > How about 3 months? THAT is reasonable. But Captain, I canna go any faster! -Scotty (James Doohan) from Star Trek From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 3 22:07 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["656" "Thu" "3" "July" "1997" "23:07:11" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "15" "Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id WAA05512 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:07:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA05501 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa3dsp5.gpt.infi.net (pa3dsp5.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.77]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA16619; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 01:07:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33BC930F.F8B@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <33BC0059.BB8@sunherald.infi.net> <199707031858.LAA19209@tzadkiel.efn.org> <33BC1520.30C8@sunherald.infi.net> <199707032126.OAA19547@tzadkiel.efn.org> <33BC3419.62AB@sunherald.infi.net> <199707032355.QAA19918@tzadkiel.efn.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 655 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, Steve VanDevender Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 23:07:11 -0700 Steve VanDevender wrote: > > I guess you haven't seen the designs for interstellar spacecraft that > actually use hydrogen bombs for thrust. The British Interplanetary > Society floated one of the proposals. Just build a big durable plate, > put your payload and a stack of H-bombs on one side, and every so often > toss an H-bomb behind the plate and detonate it. Wasn't that called Orion? I think I saw something about that around here (in LIT database). Too bad about the Space Nuclear Test Ban. As Carl Sagan said: A nuclear pulse starship seems the best use for nuclear weapons that I can see. (Or blowing up pesky asteroids that come to close) From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 4 08:13 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["965" "Fri" "4" "July" "1997" "17:10:56" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "23" "starship-design: Re: Mutiny" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA18052 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:13:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA18041 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-021.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wkA3P-000GroC; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 17:13:47 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 964 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Mutiny Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 17:10:56 +0100 Kevin, >No matter whether we use FTL or STL, no one is going to be stopping >in-between. that means to have a mutiny, it must happen in the target >system. Since it's likely that we'd have a colony segment anyway, (in >case of accident if for no other reason) then >probably what would happen is the mutineers would be the ones who >demanded to be left behind (and left alone) and let the loyalists go >back to Earth. I didn't think people would start a mutiny "somewhere in between", I indeed thought that some might not want to leave the destination system (assuming they thought that they could survive there). If that group gets to big, it will make it impossible for the other group to go back to Earth. I could imagine that the groups would start a fight. However, I'd expect that the people choosen to make the trip would be quite rational and social. It is unlikely that they would start a fight. So either most would stay or most would leave. Tim From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 4 08:14 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["939" "Fri" "4" "July" "1997" "17:10:58" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "25" "starship-design: Re: Aliens" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA18139 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA18119 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:14:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-021.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wkA3R-000GruC; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 17:13:49 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 938 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Aliens Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 17:10:58 +0100 Kelly wrote: >This leads back to the bigger SETI problem. If their were any star traveling >civilizations; and if they went out, colonized/explored, and set out for the >next stars. If the average 'wavefrount' of their exploreres moved at 1/10th >light speed. They could cross the galaxy in a million years. Given they >should have had billions of years to get here, and even slight >biocontamination should leave noticable traces (their arn't any) then where >the hell is everybody?! Why do you think the dinosaurs died out? Indeed biocontamination. The aliens tried to clean up most of the carcasses, that's why we find so few of them. Most of the small critters survived, because they usually have more and faster offspring and can thus adapt faster to such disasters. And you also know that many are abducted by aliens for genetic experiments. They are trying to match both our biologies. Wow, it sounds so logical ;) Tim From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 4 08:14 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["504" "Fri" "4" "July" "1997" "17:11:00" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "19" "starship-design: MegaScope" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA18239 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA18225 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-021.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wkA3T-000GrqC; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 17:13:51 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 503 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: MegaScope Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 17:11:00 +0100 Lee & Kelly, Lee wrote: >We can't even determine telescopically whether MARS can support life and it is >practically next door. I don't want to seem like I'm being facetious, but I >think a resolution of 1 meter at 10 light years is reasonable. We might be >able to spot gross life forms at that resolution. This would mean an increase of 4 orders in aperture radius (compared to 110 meter detail) That would mean a radius of 150,000 kilometers. That seems a bit too large for my taste. Timothy From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 4 08:15 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1133" "Fri" "4" "July" "1997" "17:11:01" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "26" "starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Lee" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA18304 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA18287 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-021.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wkA3U-000GrsC; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 17:13:52 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1132 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Lee Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 17:11:01 +0100 Lee, >They (the baptists) were just an example. But, I can imagine any number of >groups coming up with reasons to leave in mass. Once you have made provision >for a few dozen people it is only a small step to a few hundred, a little larger >step to a few thousand. The first step is the biggest. There may even be an >"economy of scale" that comes into play here. It may actually get easier to >put together a mission of a few thousand people than a few dozen. I understood it was an example (I wonder whether other more rational groups could collect that much money though). I believe your main point was to say that going to the stars was needed to get freedom. I tried to explain, why I thought that going to the stars to get freedom seemed to be the most expensive option of several others. (Eg. building a large spacestation or going to Mars may do the same) After that I tried to give another reason for going to the stars, namely to get a different worldview and to get into a hard environment (from where you can't easely escape). My guess was that the latter two may spark development and inventiveness. Timothy From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 4 10:04 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1552" "Fri" "4" "July" "1997" "12:01:16" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "43" "RE: starship-design: Re: Aliens" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id KAA07319 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 10:04:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA07303 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 10:04:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p2.gnt.com (x2p41.gnt.com [204.49.68.246]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA16497 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 12:04:00 -0500 Received: by x2p2.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC8872.59501100@x2p2.gnt.com>; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 12:03:56 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC8872.59501100@x2p2.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1551 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Re: Aliens Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 12:01:16 -0500 Kelly and Timothy, This thread is getting TOO wierd. But Kelly has a point. Even assuming the worst imaginable odds for life, intelligent life, space faring life, etc. there should still be SOME indications. Lee -----Original Message----- From: Timothy van der Linden [SMTP:TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl] Sent: Friday, July 04, 1997 11:11 AM To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Aliens Kelly wrote: >This leads back to the bigger SETI problem. If their were any star traveling >civilizations; and if they went out, colonized/explored, and set out for the >next stars. If the average 'wavefrount' of their exploreres moved at 1/10th >light speed. They could cross the galaxy in a million years. Given they >should have had billions of years to get here, and even slight >biocontamination should leave noticable traces (their arn't any) then where >the hell is everybody?! Why do you think the dinosaurs died out? Indeed biocontamination. The aliens tried to clean up most of the carcasses, that's why we find so few of them. Most of the small critters survived, because they usually have more and faster offspring and can thus adapt faster to such disasters. And you also know that many are abducted by aliens for genetic experiments. They are trying to match both our biologies. Wow, it sounds so logical ;) Tim ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- When I die, I want to go peacefully, in my sleep, like my grandfather... not screaming like the people in his car. From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 4 10:50 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1557" "Fri" "4" "July" "1997" "12:07:14" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "47" "RE: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Lee" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id KAA16313 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 10:50:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA16286 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 10:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p2.gnt.com (x2p41.gnt.com [204.49.68.246]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA18591 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 12:50:45 -0500 Received: by x2p2.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC8878.E1CEA2C0@x2p2.gnt.com>; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 12:50:42 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC8878.E1CEA2C0@x2p2.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1556 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Lee Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 12:07:14 -0500 Timothy, Yes, I understood what you were getting at. There are probably a great many possible reasons for different groups to choose to go to the stars (whether or not they can get back). Lee -----Original Message----- From: Timothy van der Linden [SMTP:TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl] Sent: Friday, July 04, 1997 11:11 AM To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Lee I understood it was an example (I wonder whether other more rational groups could collect that much money though). I believe your main point was to say that going to the stars was needed to get freedom. I tried to explain, why I thought that going to the stars to get freedom seemed to be the most expensive option of several others. (Eg. building a large spacestation or going to Mars may do the same) After that I tried to give another reason for going to the stars, namely to get a different worldview and to get into a hard environment (from where you can't easely escape). My guess was that the latter two may spark development and inventiveness. Timothy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- HOW TO COOK AN EGG -- Physics Edition "If you tie one of these eggs to the end of a string and whirl it round rapidly, and suddenly stop, the movement may perhaps be converted into heat, and then . . ." "And then the egg will be cooked?" "Yes, if the rotation has been swift enough. But how do you get the stoppage without breaking the egg?" -- Jules Verne, The School for Crusoes From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 4 10:50 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["785" "Fri" "4" "July" "1997" "12:10:05" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "32" "RE: starship-design: MegaScope" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id KAA16355 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 10:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA16332 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 10:50:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p2.gnt.com (x2p41.gnt.com [204.49.68.246]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA18600 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 12:50:49 -0500 Received: by x2p2.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC8878.E4D8D580@x2p2.gnt.com>; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 12:50:47 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC8878.E4D8D580@x2p2.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 784 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: MegaScope Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 12:10:05 -0500 Kelly and Timothy, Yes I know it seems like a large aperature, but the only thing you can detect with 110 m resolution is Giant Jovian Gas Whales... Lee -----Original Message----- From: Timothy van der Linden [SMTP:TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl] Sent: Friday, July 04, 1997 11:11 AM To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: MegaScope Lee & Kelly, This would mean an increase of 4 orders in aperture radius (compared to 110 meter detail) That would mean a radius of 150,000 kilometers. That seems a bit too large for my taste. Timothy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It is not the vastness of the field of stars which deserves our admiration, it is man who has measured it." -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 4 15:42 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1184" "Sat" "5" "July" "1997" "00:38:41" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "32" "starship-design: Truely adventurous" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA18539 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 15:42:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA18515 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 15:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-007.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wkH2i-000F7tC; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 00:41:32 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1183 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Truely adventurous Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 00:38:41 +0100 Antonio, >>Yes, and since so much effort is involved there may be little room for >>people that are truely adventurous. > >That is interesting. I have trouble envisioning a bunch of stolid, >unadventurous humans undertaking to spend decades in space, in a small >single-minded (or single-goal) community, traveling through unknown >risks towards other unknown risks. With "truely adventurous" I meant that they cannot deviate much from the programme. The programme is setup for scientific discovery, not for following ones guts. >It seems that the trip would be one long Russian country-year: a long >cooped-up pass-the-time-and-try-not-to-strangle-your-wife winter and a >hectic short hard-working summer. You don't have to be truely adventurous to be an excellent scientist and person. (Unless you mean truely adventurous in thinking.) >What if there are by then the psycho-physiological tools capable of >ensuring that "mutinousity" is excised from the crew, would this >capability be used, specially inside a research institution such as LIT? >The Sponsors choice. It will be used, just like psychological profiling is used today for a lot of critical positions. Timothy From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 4 15:43 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["581" "Sat" "5" "July" "1997" "00:38:39" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "21" "starship-design: Re: Aliens" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA18617 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 15:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA18592 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 15:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-007.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wkH2g-000F8XC; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 00:41:30 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 580 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Aliens Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 00:38:39 +0100 Lee, You wrote that Kelly had a point that if aliens exist, they should give away some hints. I ask you: Which hints? Why would the aliens not wear special suits that are near 100% bioshields? As many suggest, aliens might cause an unwanted psychological effect (apathy, hysteria) in most cultures. A reasonable alien race would not just make contact without thought. Therefore it is likely that they still hide. Why don't we see their energy signatures? I don't know, they may have tricks to hide those too. (Coming from behind Sol?) Timothy From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 4 20:30 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["428" "Fri" "4" "July" "1997" "22:21:20" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "14" "RE: starship-design: Re: Aliens" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA03251 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:30:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA03234 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:30:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p2.gnt.com (x2p31.gnt.com [204.49.68.236]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA08631 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 22:30:11 -0500 Received: by x2p2.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC88C9.D476F0E0@x2p2.gnt.com>; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 22:30:09 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC88C9.D476F0E0@x2p2.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 427 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Re: Aliens Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 22:21:20 -0500 Timothy, No race can "magically" transition from chemical fueled rockets to undetectable, stealthy space warp drives instantly. There should be a gradual development through a range of different technologies, SOME of which should yield energy signatures which we can detect at great distances. You seem to be thinking biocontamination as in local here on Earth. I meant in the broader sense of interstellar. Lee Parker From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 4 20:38 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["565" "Fri" "4" "July" "1997" "21:38:42" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "16" "Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA04721 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA04706 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:38:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa3dsp17.gpt.infi.net (pa3dsp17.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.89]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA25848; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 23:38:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33BDCFD1.5E7F@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <01BC88C9.D476F0E0@x2p2.gnt.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 564 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, "L. Parker" Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 21:38:42 -0700 L. Parker wrote: > > Timothy, > > No race can "magically" transition from chemical fueled rockets to undetectable, > stealthy space warp drives instantly. There should be a gradual development > through a range of different technologies, SOME of which should yield energy > signatures which we can detect at great distances. If you used a drive similar to mine you _might_ detect the gravity waves. But whose to say they'd use my drive? Maybe space folding, or MM systems. Although as Steve pointed out, this should be detectable... who knows? Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 4 22:57 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1151" "Sat" "5" "July" "1997" "01:56:48" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "36" "Re: RE: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id WAA23889 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 22:57:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout01.mail.aol.com (emout01.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.92]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA23869 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 22:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout01.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id BAA03932; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 01:56:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970705015647_-626541288@emout01.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1150 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: lparker@cacaphony.net, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: RE: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 01:56:48 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/2/97 8:14:01 PM, lparker@cacaphony.net (L. Parker) wrote: >Timothy and Antonio, > >Consider this scenario: > >A "sponsor" could be a government, a multi-national corporation or consortium, >or it could be a company formed by the colonists, specifically for the purpose >of equiping and sending a colony to another system. Something like "The Tau Ceti >Development Corporation", or the "Chartered Procyon Expedition". Such groups would >most likely be composed of people with common idealogies, interests or backgrounds. >After all, what else were the Puritans who sailed to Plymouth if not a private >company chartered for the express purpose of establishing a new colony. It is only >a matter of scale... > >Lee Parker The pilgrams and puritains are a bad example for you, but the idea of development corporations for colonies has been very successfull IF THEIR IS A MARKETABLE COMODITY! Given the transportation costs and time delays for interstellar travel. Its vitually inconceavable for 21st interstellar commerce. I.E. their is nothing that the colony could sell that would cover the costs of this project. Kelly From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 5 15:42 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1291" "Sun" "6" "July" "1997" "00:40:08" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "30" "starship-design: Re: Aliens" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA11844 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 15:42:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA11828 for ; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 15:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-004.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wkdXe-000EqhC; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:42:58 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1290 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Aliens Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 00:40:08 +0100 Lee, >No race can "magically" transition from chemical fueled rockets to undetectable, >stealthy space warp drives instantly. There should be a gradual development >through a range of different technologies, SOME of which should yield energy >signatures which we can detect at great distances. What signatures? Even our fusion designs that accelerate upto 0.5c radiate less than 1/1,000,000,000 the power of the Sun. And to be frank, we probably will only do a fusion design if we become really desperate to go to the stars. Besides this, the timespan the transition may take, is likely to be short compared to the time we have been looking more critical to the heavens. And assuming that there are aliens going back and forth, they are likely to have something like the "Federation of United Planets", where they will invite every advanced civilisation that is ready to join them. Joining probably means that certain scientific data is given to the new members. This will decrease the timespan of development even more. >You seem to be thinking biocontamination as in local here on Earth. I meant in >the broader sense of interstellar. I thought we were talking about "noticable traces". I wonder how we could have noticed biocontamination somewhere else than on Earth. Timothy From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 5 19:14 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2931" "Sat" "5" "July" "1997" "21:14:10" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "56" "RE: starship-design: Re: Aliens" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA20753 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 19:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA20743 for ; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 19:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p2.gnt.com (x2p17.gnt.com [204.49.68.222]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA21932 for ; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:14:49 -0500 Received: by x2p2.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC8988.765D12E0@x2p2.gnt.com>; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:14:45 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC8988.765D12E0@x2p2.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by darkwing.uoregon.edu id TAA20745 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 2930 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Re: Aliens Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:14:10 -0500 Timothy, At some point in development every star faring race would have to pass through a point where they radiated some sort of energy that is distinctly not a natural product. Whether it is simply radio, neutrinos, or gravitons is simply irrelevant. SOMETHING must be radiated at some point in time that would give away their presence. The only alternative is to assume a degree of paranoia that I find totally unbelievable. The argument about our "potential" fusion drives is equally irrelevant. I wasn't speaking of anything so primitive. Same goes for timespan, remember Zeno's paradox? Apply the same line of reasoning to this argument. It doesn't matter how long we have been looking, there should be some trace visible in our sky AT EVERY SINGLE MOMENT. The Federation of United Planets is pure anthropomorphic garbage. To ascribe human values, motives and logic to an alien species is totally unreasonable and dangerous to boot. No, if they are indeed out there, they are either (all) much too far away, too few or more likely, both. Lee Parker -----Original Message----- From: Timothy van der Linden [SMTP:TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl] Sent: Saturday, July 05, 1997 6:40 PM To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Aliens Lee, What signatures? Even our fusion designs that accelerate upto 0.5c radiate less than 1/1,000,000,000 the power of the Sun. And to be frank, we probably will only do a fusion design if we become really desperate to go to the stars. Besides this, the timespan the transition may take, is likely to be short compared to the time we have been looking more critical to the heavens. And assuming that there are aliens going back and forth, they are likely to have something like the "Federation of United Planets", where they will invite every advanced civilisation that is ready to join them. Joining probably means that certain scientific data is given to the new members. This will decrease the timespan of development even more. >You seem to be thinking biocontamination as in local here on Earth. I meant in >the broader sense of interstellar. I thought we were talking about "noticable traces". I wonder how we could have noticed biocontamination somewhere else than on Earth. Timothy (o o) ------------------------------------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo--------- Ernst Eduard Kummer (1810-1893), a German algebraist, was rather poor at arithmetic. Whenever he had occasion to do simple arithmetic in class, he would get his students to help him. Once he had to find 7 x 9. "Seven times nine," he began, "Seven times nine is er -- ah --- ah -- seven times nine is. . . ." "Sixty-one," a student suggested. Kummer wrote 61 on the board. "Sir," said another student, "it should be sixty-nine." "Come, come, gentlemen, it can't be both," Kummer exclaimed. "It must be one or the other." From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 5 21:59 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1252" "Sun" "6" "July" "1997" "00:58:27" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "52" "Re: RE: starship-design: Go Starwisps" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA17749 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout03.mail.aol.com (emout03.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.94]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA17738 for ; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:58:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout03.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA00655; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:58:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970706005826_-158604162@emout03.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1251 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: lparker@cacaphony.net, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: RE: starship-design: Go Starwisps Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:58:27 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/4/97 12:14:25 AM, lparker@cacaphony.net (L. Parker) wrote: >Kelly, > >>Assuming the drives are related. > > >[L. Parker] I wouldn't assume any such thing, probably the opposite... > > >>Never trust, verify the data and plan for the worst. > > >>[L. Parker] That is the point of multiple approaces to verifying the data >>BEFORE sending people. But a pre flight robot probe probably can't do this. >>>They are made e.g. for reasons of survival... > >>>Irrelavent in this case since they would be dependant on Sol for survival. >>> Actually coplonies are never made for survival of the species type reasons >>>eaither, and such a colony wouldn't help that significantly. > >[L. Parker] No, they are made for reasons of politics, of prestige and of >oppression. No, usually money. Sometimes escape from some powerfull group. Never heard of a successfull colony made for prestige. How could it be used for oppression? >> Sorry, would be colonists are nuked from orbit as part of the decontaminati on >> proceedure. ;) > >Kelly > >[L. Parker] Your'e kidding I hope? > >Lee Maybe, maybe not. Its an arguable policy to limit ecological damage to the planetfrom the colonists biology. Eiather way their dead. Kelly From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 5 21:59 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["294" "Sun" "6" "July" "1997" "00:58:29" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "18" "Re: RE: starship-design: MegaScope" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA17766 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:59:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.95]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA17748 for ; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA26936; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:58:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970706005829_-991291778@emout04.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 293 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: lparker@cacaphony.net, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: RE: starship-design: MegaScope Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:58:29 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/4/97 9:08:41 PM, lparker@cacaphony.net (L. Parker) wrote: >Kelly and Timothy, > >Yes I know it seems like a large aperature, but the only thing you can detect with > >110 m resolution is Giant Jovian Gas Whales... > >Lee Or red woods, forests, grasslands, et.. Kelly From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 5 21:59 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1080" "Sun" "6" "July" "1997" "00:58:32" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "32" "Re: RE: starship-design: Re: Go Starwisps" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA17784 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com (emout06.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.97]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA17767 for ; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:59:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA00130; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:58:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970706005832_26026494@emout06.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1079 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: lparker@cacaphony.net, owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: RE: starship-design: Re: Go Starwisps Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:58:32 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/4/97 4:21:50 AM, lparker@cacaphony.net (L. Parker) wrote: >Kelly, > >>We can't even determine telescopically whether MARS can support life and >>it is practically next door. I don't want to seem like I'm being facetious, >>but I think a resolution of 1 meter at 10 light years is reasonable. We >>might be able to spot gross life forms at that resolution. > >Lee I'm not sure if we couple determine if their was life on Mars with scopes. But we certainly haven't really tryied. But then at this range its alot cheaper to just send a damn ship. Over interstellar distences the cost ratios change a lot. Of course a lot depends on the biosphere. At 1 meter res Earth would be extreamly easy to verify as biologically active. You could even spectra scope the atmosphere for telltale chemistry with a lot less. Kelly >Actually The largest scope I mentioned was Hundreds of thousands of miles >across. Thou the calculations are a good Idea. To a degree you could scale >up the scopes to any size nessisary. How big would it need to be? > >Kelly From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 5 21:59 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2406" "Sun" "6" "July" "1997" "00:58:37" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "74" "Re: starship-design: Into detail" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA17811 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:59:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com (emout07.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.22]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA17798 for ; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA19361; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:58:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970706005836_303698558@emout07.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2405 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Into detail Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:58:37 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/3/97 10:53:10 PM, TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) wrote: >Kelly, > >Regarding your questions: > >>Actually The largest scope I mentioned was Hundreds of thousands of miles >>across. > >Ah, I must have read hundreds OR thousants. > >>Thou the calculations are a good Idea. To a degree you could scale >>up the scopes to any size nessisary. How big would it need to be? > >Well a factor 2 bigger 300,000 miles instead of 3,000 miles will resolve >objects of: > >d=1.22 * 9.45E16 * 5.3E-7 / 5.556E8 = 110 metres Not bad over interstellar distences. If you see anything really interesting you could probably get funding to scale up the scope array. A 4 order of magnitude improvement should get you 1 meter res. 8 order centimeter rest. Enough to study life forms (if any). Expensive, but not compared to the starship project. >Besides Rayleigh's criteria, there is the point of brightness. > >To create a visible image on each separate telescope I need to know the >minimal brightness (in Watt/m^2) that those CCD cameras can "see". >I don't know this "minimal brightness", but assume that one needs at least 1 >photon per pixel. > >Assuming that the planet we look at reflects 400 Watt per square meter (in >the visible range), than at Sol we have only 400/(2 pi r^2) = 400/(2 pi >9.45E16^2) = 7.1E-33 Watt/m^2 >(I use 2*pi*r^2 which is the surface of half a sphere over which the light >is reflected) > >Luckely we didn't want 1 meter detail, but110 meter detail, so we have 110^2 >more Watts here at Sol: (110^2)*7.1E-33=8.6E-29 Watt/m^2 > >A single photon has an energy of >h*c/lambda=(1E-34)*(3E8)/(5.3E-7)=5.7E-20 Joule > >So that means about 1 photon per second per 6.6E8 square meter. > >Say we need 1E6 photons for a photograph (theoretical 1000x1000 pixels). > >We make a 1 second photograph. (Can't do longer, otherwise the planet has >turned much more than 110 meters) The scope aray or post processors could compensate for the rotation. >Therfore we need an aperture surface of 1E6*6.6E8=6.6E14 square meters. > >Hmmm, that means a aperture radius of 14.5 kilometers. Most of my estimates >have been quite optimistic, so it could well be that one needs a few orders >bigger. > > >Timothy Ah, I make that 2.5e7 meters per side. How'd you get 14,500? Kelly >P.S. If anyone has more hard data, I may be able to give a closer estimate. From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 5 21:59 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["661" "Sun" "6" "July" "1997" "00:58:40" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "27" "Re: starship-design: MegaScope" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA17829 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:59:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA17812 for ; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:59:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA06148; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:58:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970706005839_-2012103554@emout08.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 660 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: MegaScope Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:58:40 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/4/97 6:39:13 PM, TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) wrote: >Lee & Kelly, > >Lee wrote: > >>We can't even determine telescopically whether MARS can support life and it >is >>practically next door. I don't want to seem like I'm being facetious, but I >>think a resolution of 1 meter at 10 light years is reasonable. We might be >>able to spot gross life forms at that resolution. > >This would mean an increase of 4 orders in aperture radius (compared to 110 >meter detail) > >That would mean a radius of 150,000 kilometers. That seems a bit too large >for my taste. > >Timothy Hell, thats still in lunar orbit! Kelly From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 5 21:59 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1623" "Sun" "6" "July" "1997" "00:58:42" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "41" "Re: starship-design: Mutiny, " "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA17849 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:59:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com (emout09.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.24]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA17826 for ; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:59:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA10505; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:58:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970706005842_714306465@emout09.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1622 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Mutiny, Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:58:42 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/3/97 7:08:21 PM, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Kevin "Tex" Houston) wrote: >Antonio C T Rocha wrote: >> >> Timothy van der Linden wrote: >> > BTW. Writing this, I started wondering what would happen if people >> > start a mutiny. >> > >> > Timothy >> >> Ask any naval officer. ?Probably the same that would have happened >> before the 1800s: starvation adrift or survivors marooned on some barren >> rock. With discipline and order, and luck and nearby infrastructure, >> maybe - just maybe - they could go "pirate". Does humanity change? >> > >Nonsense, They will be in direct line of sight the entire time. >Communication might be slow, but it won't be a secret, everyone will >know what happened. There'd be no way the mutineers could ever come >back. That might happen on the hundreth trip, or maybe the tenth, but I >don't think it will happen on the first. > >No matter whether we use FTL or STL, no one is going to be stopping >in-between. that means to have a mutiny, it must happen in the target >system. Since it's likely that we'd have a colony segment anyway, (in >case of accident if for no other reason) then >probably what would happen is the mutineers would be the ones who >demanded to be left behind (and left alone) and let the loyalists go >back to Earth. Problem with that. The ship couldn't possibly carry a self sustaining colony. So what kind of people would fight for the right to be left behind? Their only hope of survival would be with continued supply flights from home. Being sent to sustain mutineers? I would expect some serious hooks attached! Kelly From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 5 21:59 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1120" "Sun" "6" "July" "1997" "00:58:47" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "34" "Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA17878 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout11.mail.aol.com (emout11.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.26]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA17863 for ; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:59:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout11.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA27778; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:58:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970706005846_-259264002@emout11.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1119 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:58:47 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/4/97 12:05:28 PM, TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) wrote: >Kelly wrote: > >>This leads back to the bigger SETI problem. If their were any star traveling >>civilizations; and if they went out, colonized/explored, and set out for the >>next stars. If the average 'wavefrount' of their exploreres moved at 1/10th >>light speed. They could cross the galaxy in a million years. Given they >>should have had billions of years to get here, and even slight >>biocontamination should leave noticable traces (their arn't any) then where >>the hell is everybody?! > >Why do you think the dinosaurs died out? Indeed biocontamination. The aliens >tried to clean up most of the carcasses, that's why we find so few of them. >Most of the small critters survived, because they usually have more and >faster offspring and can thus adapt faster to such disasters. > >And you also know that many are abducted by aliens for genetic experiments. >They are trying to match both our biologies. > >Wow, it sounds so logical ;) > >Tim Tighter then the garbage the UFO buffs are buying. Kelly ;) From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 5 21:59 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1548" "Sun" "6" "July" "1997" "00:58:51" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "48" "Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA17891 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout12.mail.aol.com (emout12.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.38]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA17865 for ; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:59:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout12.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA12775; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:58:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970706005850_-1695798751@emout12.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1547 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:58:51 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/4/97 6:38:09 PM, TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) wrote: > > >Lee, > >You wrote that Kelly had a point that if aliens exist, they should give away >some hints. > >I ask you: Which hints? > >Why would the aliens not wear special suits that are near 100% bioshields? If anything leaks out. It sould stand out like a neon sign. (HEY! This species of microbe doesn't use our kind of DNA!!) >As many suggest, aliens might cause an unwanted psychological effect >(apathy, hysteria) in most cultures. A reasonable alien race would not just >make contact without thought. Therefore it is likely that they still hide. This ones kind of a bogus prejudice on 20th century types part. Historiocally human cultures routinely ran into alien non person cultures. Ok, most were just the next tribe over. But to them that was as shockingly alien as aliens would be to us. The tribes seldom wen't hysterical and colapsed at the site. If they were in conflict they fought. If not they tried to trade or ignored one another. If ET drops in to D.C. next week I expect the same patterns. Besides. We never worry much about droping in on aborigional cultures. Do you expect every other culture in the galaxy to to be more paraniod and anal retentive then us? >Why don't we see their energy signatures? I don't know, they may have tricks >to hide those too. (Coming from behind Sol?) >From the power numbers Kyles been throwing about, that wouldn't be enough! ;) >Timothy Kelly From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 5 21:59 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2802" "Sun" "6" "July" "1997" "00:58:54" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "74" "Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA17917 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout15.mail.aol.com (emout15.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.41]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA17893 for ; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout15.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA21521; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:58:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970706005853_1141657086@emout15.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2801 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: arocha@bsb.nutecnet.com.br, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:58:54 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/4/97 12:35:17 PM, arocha@bsb.nutecnet.com.br (Antonio C T Rocha) wrote: >Timothy van der Linden wrote: > >> Antonio wrote: >> >> >This _is_, after all, still the first phase: exploration. It does >> >require the funding and support (and submission to) a socially >> powerful >> >entity. >> >> Yes, and since so much effort is involved there may be little room for >> >> people that are truely adventurous. > >That is interesting. I have trouble envisioning a bunch of stolid, >unadventurous humans undertaking to spend decades in space, in a small >single-minded (or single-goal) community, traveling through unknown >risks towards other unknown risks. Until today, most people going on >such undertakings have gone for glory, plunder, novelty... or whatnot. >Glory doesn't change much and the "plunder" might consist in the >accumulation of new knowledge. If new worlds are found, that could also >mean new opportunities in the future.Unless... would we have by then >developed the capability of changing our personalities to meet our jobs? >Even so, how interesting is it to have un-adventurous types fending for >themselves alone, twenty+ light years from home? >It seems that the trip would be one long Russian country-year: a long >cooped-up pass-the-time-and-try-not-to-strangle-your-wife winter and a >hectic short hard-working summer. Good points! Crewing such a trip would be very difficult. Adrenaline types wouldn't work, and the unimaginative wouldn't be worth sending. Guess you have to hire professional interested in advancing their fields. "Spend your career on a trip to the stars and rewrite the books when you get back. Leasurly low stress flight out. Plenty of time for review and study. Low presure enviornment. etc.. apply at.." Hum, maybe lazy collage proffs should apply? ;) >> >> BTW. Writing this, I started wondering what would happen if people >> >> >> start a mutiny. >> > >> >Ask any naval officer. ?Probably the same that would have happened >> >before the 1800s: starvation adrift or survivors marooned on some >> barren >> >rock. With discipline and order, and luck and nearby infrastructure, >> >maybe - just maybe - they could go "pirate". Does humanity change? >> >> Ah, yes I could have thought of that myself. I guess I was too >> intrigued >> (not inspired ;) by the idea itself. >> >> Timothy > >What if there are by then the psycho-physiological tools capable of >ensuring that "mutinousity" is excised from the crew, would this >capability be used, specially inside a research institution such as LIT? >The Sponsors choice. > >Antonio C Rocha Hum. Well we could keep the access codes to the command and control computers. Don't want to play? We lock the food lockets and depresurise the access tunnels. ;) Kelly From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 5 21:59 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["980" "Sun" "6" "July" "1997" "00:59:10" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "36" "Re: starship-design: Why go to the stars?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA18182 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:59:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout20.mail.aol.com (emout20.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.46]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA18128 for ; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 21:59:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout20.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA11631; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:59:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970706005909_191935872@emout20.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 979 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: stk@sunherald.infi.net, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Why go to the stars? Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:59:10 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/3/97 10:49:15 PM, stk@sunherald.infi.net (kyle) wrote: >KellySt@aol.com wrote: > >> 1 is reasonably irrelavent, certainly in the next few centuries. > >Not necessarily... Think if any senerio where and extra solar colony (especially one dependant on suplies from home) could aid the survival of humanity over the next few centuries. >> The others sum up to "we'ld like to". Agreed, but that never funded any >>project this size before, and is unlikely to in 2050. > >I wouldn't be so sure. Things can happen if people get interested. A tens of billions of dollars (low estimate) project? Those don't happen unless their is big money to be made quickly, or a critical need. Nieather seems applicable here. >> Besides, wasn't the question why colonize the stars? > >I suppose. But you have to go there first. > >Kyle Mcallister But you won't start a colony until you come up with a reason, whgich obviously can't preceed a first flight. Kelly From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 5 22:00 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1410" "Sun" "6" "July" "1997" "00:59:02" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "39" "Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id WAA18668 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 22:00:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout17.mail.aol.com (emout17.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.43]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA18604 for ; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 22:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout17.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA12999; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:59:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970706005901_-2063887327@emout17.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1409 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: stk@sunherald.infi.net, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, lparker@cacaphony.net Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:59:02 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/4/97 5:19:58 AM, stk@sunherald.infi.net (kyle) wrote: >L.Parker wrote: >> >> Bogus or not, its not good enough for 1000 light years. For FTL to take 31 years >> is ridiculous. Might as well go sublight at relativistic velocities. It only >take 12 >> years (ship time) that way. >> > >31 years (earth time) to travel 1000 ly is not unreasonable. If you use >relativistic travel, sure you'd get there in less SHIP time, but it'd >take over 1000 years earth time. Try getting funding for that! 31 years >ain't that long. > >You could go faster if you wanted to (just increase the ZPE generator >section, explained in my upcoming design). My numbers aren't bogus, but >come from "the man who started it all", Miguel Alcubierre. I'm simply >applying his theory to design. He deserves the real credit. > >If you try going faster than 1g, even for FTL, its gonna be hard on the >ship's integrity. So make the ship more durable, which increases weight, >which increases energy usage...but not impossible. > >Kyle Mcallister More critical then ships integroty would be crew health. Prolonged high G would be great for the cardio-vascular system, but be pretty exausting for the crew. Also, would that be applicable? As I remember Alcubierre concept involved moving a pocket of spacetime. That would not involve acceleration in the normal sence, so no g force on the crew or ship. Kelly From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 5 22:00 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4810" "Sun" "6" "July" "1997" "00:59:07" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "114" "Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id WAA18776 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 22:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout19.mail.aol.com (emout19.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.45]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA18728 for ; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 22:00:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA02156; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:59:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970706005906_538482432@emout19.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 4809 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: stk@sunherald.infi.net, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, stevev@efn.org Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 00:59:07 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/4/97 11:38:02 AM, stk@sunherald.infi.net (kyle) wrote: >Steve VanDevender wrote: > >> Wrong. Did you actually read Ken Wharton's explanation of _why_ FTL is >> inconsistent with relativity? It's not something you can dismiss >> because you don't understand it. > >I read ALL my E-mail. Maybe it is inconsistent. There are things in >nature that are incosistent with science (as we know it), but they still >happen. > >> > Besides, the speed of light CAN be increased by many >> > factors. >> >> Which are not demonstrably relevant to space propulsion. > >Untrue. Several ideas (which I won't even quote, since no one will >listen) have shown such potential. Oh, Id like to ask: did blowing up >the Bikini Atoll with an H-bomb show relavant potential for starship >engines? Not at the time. See my point? >> >> > Newtonian physics deals with low velocity. Relativity high >> > velocity (near-c). What deals with FTL? FTL apparently is possible. We >> > haven't figured it out yet. >> >> Just as relativity did not invalidate Newtonian physics at low >> velocities, I do not expect any working FTL theory (should one be >> proven) to invalidate relativity in its domain. > >I don't wish relativity to be invalidated. But there can be additions. > >> >> > I know everyone will eat me alive for using >> > not-so-exact terminology, but I ask everyone: have you sent a >> > MACROSCOPIC object up to relativistic speed? Here's where I really get >> > demanding: With an engine attached? I believe the answer is no. See my >> > point? >> >> Several astrophysical phenomena demonstrate relativistic effects on >> macroscopic objects that are completely consistent with the theoretical >> predictions. > >Oh, I see. I'm unsure of this: Do these phenomena have Engines? ONBOARD? > >> >> > Steve: If you want to disagree with FTL, thats fine with me. I don't >> > take it personally. Frankly, I just keep working on it. >> > >> > As I've said earlier, I will be posting a design for an FTL-driven >> > starship. My co-designers are: Ben Bakelaar, and Kevin Houston. Much >> > help and thanks to Kelly Starks. >> > If IPS listened to FTL theory, and LeRC listened to FTL theory, than LIT >> > needs to. >> >> If you spout nonsense in this forum, you will be called on it. That's >> all there is to it. > >I have already been given permission to post my design. And my theories >are NOT nonsense. Perhaps this trouble is due to the fact that I'm just >a kid? > >> >> > "The suppresion of hard ideas is not the road to knowledge" >> > -Carl Sagan >> >> You take this quote entirely out of the context and spirit in which it >> was offered. If you have a real FTL theory, then you can justify it by >> experiment. Until you've done so it's not science and it can't be used >> to build a working spacecraft. If you're feeling suppressed because I >> keep asking you to put up or shut up on your FTL imaginings, then too >> bad. > >Have we propelled objects, ARTIFICIAL objects up to .9XXC? No. Therefore >that, if what you say is true, is not applicable to starship design. I >know my ideas are speculative, but if we cannot speculate, then we are >unworthy of being called scientists. No offense to anyone: You shoot >down all my theories, but an even more speculative theory, the "cellular >automaton universe", you do not attack. Something doesn't add up... > >I don't wish to dissapoint you, but you haven't made me feel like an >unknowing idiot. Maybe I don't know as much as some in this group, maybe >I'm not a colledge grad (yet), with a big degree behind me, but I'm not >stupid. I'm beginning to feel a lot like Nicolaus Copernicus. And no, I >won't shut up and be a nice little boy. I, unlike some people (I'm not >refering to anyone in LIT, so don't get me wrong), am not easy to give >up. > >Regards, >Kyle R. Mcallister The "Copernicus" line was a bit over the top. As to why your geting pounded. Its not particularly that your a kid, but: 1- FTL violates a lot of people assumptions about physics. It doesn't violate the laws of physics, just peoples assumptions. But thats a great way to generate a lot of heat fast. (Just imagine that flack the origionator of the theory is getting.) 2- Your concept is extreamly iffy for a ship engineering design. Which is the nominal goal of the group. Its a speculation, on a possible aplication of a unproven theory. Certainly wourth talking about. But really skating on thin conceptual ice. We've been trying to stay on very practical ground and have avoided concepts that are just theories (regardless of how usefull they would have been). In general the concepts are worth discusion and review, and addition to the site(s). But they are a definaet lightning rod. Kelly From owner-starship-design Sun Jul 6 11:29 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["879" "Sun" "6" "July" "1997" "12:29:00" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "23" "Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA01189 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 11:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA01155 for ; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 11:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa3dsp4.gpt.infi.net (pa3dsp4.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.76]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA05136 for ; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 14:29:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33BFF1FB.A50@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <970706005901_-2063887327@emout17.mail.aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 878 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Why go to the stars? - Kyle Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 12:29:00 -0700 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > > More critical then ships integroty would be crew health. Prolonged high G > would be great for the cardio-vascular system, but be pretty exausting for > the crew. > > Also, would that be applicable? As I remember Alcubierre concept involved > moving a pocket of spacetime. That would not involve acceleration in the > normal sence, so no g force on the crew or ship. > Well, the gravity wouldn't be felt by the ship or crew, but the tidal distortions on the drive segments certainly would be severe. I figure we'll just forget the plates and use lasers of X-high power (produced by the ZPF) in front for gravity generation, and in back we'll use the ZPF plates. If you accelerated at say, 5g's you'd get there in 1.5427 years (both time). To clarify this, it is similar to Alcubierre's theory, just from a design standpoint. Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 7 05:49 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["897" "Mon" "7" "July" "1997" "09:33:56" "-0300" "Antonio C T Rocha" "arocha@bsb.nutecnet.com.br" nil "34" "Re: starship-design: Truely adventurous" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id FAA17920 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 05:49:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from srv1-bsb.bsb.nutecnet.com.br (srv1-bsb.bsb.nutecnet.com.br [200.252.253.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id FAA17909 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 05:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Metacor.bsb.nutecnet.com.br (dl2022-bsb.bsb.nutecnet.com.br [200.252.243.22]) by srv1-bsb.bsb.nutecnet.com.br (8.8.5/SCA-6.6) with ESMTP id MAA22373 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:44:34 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33C0E233.2D2E8F5@bsb.nutecnet.com.br> Organization: is unrealistic X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Antonio C T Rocha Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 896 From: Antonio C T Rocha Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Truely adventurous Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 09:33:56 -0300 Timothy van der Linden wrote: > Antonio, > > >>Yes, and since so much effort is involved there may be little room > for > >>people that are truely adventurous. > > (...) > (...) > >It seems that the trip would be one long Russian country-year: a long > > >cooped-up pass-the-time-and-try-not-to-strangle-your-wife winter and > a > >hectic short hard-working summer. > > You don't have to be truely adventurous to be an excellent scientist > and > person. (Unless you mean truely adventurous in thinking.) > (...) > > Timothy It is one of my intellectual limitations that : I cannot imagine or accept an un-adventurous or "un-romantic" scientist. Meaning, one that is not inebriated and elevated by the contemplation of knowledge and the acquisition of knowledge. The "book-keepers of science" should not be confused with scientists. Sorry, but that is one of my chared-raw nerves. Antonio From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 7 06:33 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1691" "Mon" "7" "July" "1997" "15:31:10" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "45" "starship-design: Re: Into detail" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id GAA24084 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 06:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA24074 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 06:33:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-025.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wlDvX-000Gq9C; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:34:03 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1690 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Into detail Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 15:31:10 +0100 Kelly, >>Well a factor 2 bigger 300,000 miles instead of 3,000 miles will resolve >>objects of: >> >>d=1.22 * 9.45E16 * 5.3E-7 / 5.556E8 = 110 metres > >Not bad over interstellar distences. If you see anything really interesting >you could probably get funding to scale up the scope array. A 4 order of >magnitude improvement should get you 1 meter res. 8 order centimeter rest. > Enough to study life forms (if any). > >Expensive, but not compared to the starship project. Resolution power doesn't seem to be the biggest problem, it "merely" needs a few small telescopes that are far apart. More essential is the brightness problem for which we would need really huge telescopes that can be more expensive that a starship project. >>We make a 1 second photograph. (Can't do longer, otherwise the planet has >>turned much more than 110 meters) > >The scope aray or post processors could compensate for the rotation. Yes, that might work. so you may indeed decrease the telescope size a bit if you can make longer exposures. >>Therfore we need an aperture surface of 1E6*6.6E8=6.6E14 square meters. >> >>Hmmm, that means a aperture radius of 14.5 kilometers. Most of my estimates >>have been quite optimistic, so it could well be that one needs a few orders >>bigger. > >Ah, I make that 2.5e7 meters per side. How'd you get 14,500? I used a circular aperture, but also accidentally devided by 1E6 instead of 1E3 to get kilometers. The mistake was mine, so the aperture radius has to be 1000 times bigger. Not a trivial upscale! Regarding resolving 1 meter details, I'd rather not think about that anymore. Multiple exploring missions would be cheaper and easier to do. Timothy From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 7 17:57 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1027" "Mon" "7" "July" "1997" "18:57:04" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "24" "starship-design: Raise the limit? " "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id RAA16099 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:57:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA16044 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa3dsp7.gpt.infi.net (pa3dsp7.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.79]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA09849 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:57:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33C19E6F.E17@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 1026 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Raise the limit? Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 18:57:04 -0700 Greetings: I was wondering about FTL travel, and ask myself "why do we really need it?" To get somewhere fast. Why not abandon FTL until physics gets that far and simply travel without traversing the space between two points? You could theoretically travel from any point to any point without having to exceed the speed of light, AND taking a very short travel time in earth's reference point. One other possibility: the speed of light can be raised, so why bother with FTL? Just boost the speed of light to say, 150,000,000,000 m/sec? One question: how much energy is needed? One last thing: relativity does NOT (for me) explain superluminal velocity of quasars. I know the velocity trick, but isn't that contradiction with the Lorentz transformation addition of velocity? Maybe they just didn't want to get into something real hard to explain. Or maybe I misunderstood. Kyle Mcallister P.S.: Please don't hassle me with this being to speculative: we have recently entertained even more speculative of ideas than this. From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 7 18:29 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1235" "Mon" "7" "July" "1997" "20:28:50" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "31" "starship-design: Re: Telescopes in Orbit" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id SAA25858 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA25841 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:29:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p45.gnt.com (x2p47.gnt.com [204.49.68.252]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA32553 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:29:09 -0500 Received: by x2p45.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC8B14.6A150320@x2p45.gnt.com>; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:29:05 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC8B14.6A150320@x2p45.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Length: 1234 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: starship-design: Re: Telescopes in Orbit Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 20:28:50 -0500 I have been thinking about this telescope idea, apertures and resolving power. The recent launch of HALCA in February made me wonder. HALCA works in concert with ground-based telescopes, allowing astronomers to simulate a dish with a diameter as large as 28,000 kilometers and a resolving power-the ability to detect fine details-more than 100 times higher than that of the Hubble Space Telescope. Of course it is limited by the radius of its orbit plus or minus one earth diameter. So the question is: what exactly is the distance between the leading LaGrange point and the trailing LaGrange point? It would be awfully convenient if it was 300,000 km.... Lee Parker (o o) ------------------------------------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo--------- Two people are traveling in a balloon over a landscape unknown to them. "Where are we?" one calls down to a passerby. The passerby looks carefully at them and finally yells back, "You're on a balloon!" "He must be a mathematician," says one of the travelers to the other. "Why is that?" "First, he thought awhile before answering. Second, his answer is absolutely precise. And third, it's utterly useless." From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 7 18:34 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2001" "Mon" "7" "July" "1997" "21:33:45" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "58" "Re: starship-design: Re: Into detail" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id SAA28056 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:34:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout01.mail.aol.com (emout01.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.92]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA28045 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:34:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout01.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA28993; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:33:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970707213344_-2011930308@emout01.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2000 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Into detail Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:33:45 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/7/97 7:35:49 AM, TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) wrote: >Kelly, > >>>Well a factor 2 bigger 300,000 miles instead of 3,000 miles will resolve >>>objects of: >>> >>>d=1.22 * 9.45E16 * 5.3E-7 / 5.556E8 = 110 metres >> >>Not bad over interstellar distences. If you see anything really interesting >>you could probably get funding to scale up the scope array. A 4 order of >>magnitude improvement should get you 1 meter res. 8 order centimeter rest. >> Enough to study life forms (if any). >> >>Expensive, but not compared to the starship project. > >Resolution power doesn't seem to be the biggest problem, it "merely" needs a >few small telescopes that are far apart. >More essential is the brightness problem for which we would need really huge >telescopes that can be more expensive that a starship project. > >>>We make a 1 second photograph. (Can't do longer, otherwise the planet has >>>turned much more than 110 meters) >> >>The scope aray or post processors could compensate for the rotation. > >Yes, that might work. so you may indeed decrease the telescope size a bit if >you can make longer exposures. > >>>Therfore we need an aperture surface of 1E6*6.6E8=6.6E14 square meters. >>> >>>Hmmm, that means a aperture radius of 14.5 kilometers. Most of my estimates >>>have been quite optimistic, so it could well be that one needs a few orders >>>bigger. >> >>Ah, I make that 2.5e7 meters per side. How'd you get 14,500? > >I used a circular aperture, but also accidentally devided by 1E6 instead of >1E3 to get kilometers. The mistake was mine, so the aperture radius has to >be 1000 times bigger. Not a trivial upscale! > >Regarding resolving 1 meter details, I'd rather not think about that >anymore. Multiple exploring missions would be cheaper and easier to do. > >Timothy Given the tens to hundreds of billions of dollars even one of these mission would probably take. I seriously doubt that a meter res scope would be more costly. Kelly From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 7 19:00 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1191" "Mon" "7" "July" "1997" "20:00:07" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "24" "starship-design: Telescopes the size of worlds?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA04672 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA04645 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa3dsp7.gpt.infi.net (pa3dsp7.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.79]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA21530 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:00:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33C1AD36.3D@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 1190 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Telescopes the size of worlds? Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 20:00:07 -0700 Wait a minute! We're talking about telescopes the size of planets here. Where are you gonna get that much money to build these? It WILL be more expensive than a starship, because of the immense size, stabilization systems, power systems, etc. This may not seem like a problem, but then you have repairs when a cloud of debris comes careening through the thing, which pretty much makes useless that telescope. Another problem: these things will get so big, they'll warp under their own weight. If anything hits this thing, it will become destabilized, and when you try to thrust it back to stability the thing will probably buckle from stress. If you really want to build these (I don't recommend it), at least build them in an array, with many smaller scopes. These ideas are great to wonder about, but are impractical: for the same price you can go there. Why then do you spend $100B+ on limited scanning scopes, when you can go? I ask you: how do you get an electron micrograph of bacteria with a telescope? theoretically you could, but it would be so massive... And you say my ideas are far-out?? Maybe my ideas defy current understanding, but they are practical. Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 7 22:08 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["959" "Mon" "7" "July" "1997" "21:31:58" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "21" "starship-design: Re: Telescopes in Orbit" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id WAA21014 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:08:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA21003 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p45.gnt.com (x2p29.gnt.com [204.49.68.234]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA13002 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 00:08:43 -0500 Received: by x2p45.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC8B33.16752460@x2p45.gnt.com>; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 00:08:39 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC8B33.16752460@x2p45.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 958 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: starship-design: Re: Telescopes in Orbit Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:31:58 -0500 It seems I missed something, apparently there was an error in someone's math? First of all, it starts out in miles and ends up in meters, then there seems to be a problem with orders of magnitude? Not trying to pick, but would someone please tell me what either the correct equation or the correct answer is? Actually, I think I would prefer the equation. I want to apply it to both LaGrange and Lunar orbit data and see what sort of resolution we are talking about. Lee Parker (o o) ------------------------------------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo--------- "I am afraid the knockabout comedy of modern atomic physics is not very tender towards our aesthetic ideals. The stately drama of stellar evolution turns out to be more like the hair-breadth escapades in the films. The music of the spheres has a painful suggestion of -- jazz." -- Arthur S. Eddington, Stars and Atoms, 1926. From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 8 04:46 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["422" "Tue" "8" "July" "1997" "13:43:36" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "14" "starship-design: Superluminal velocity of quasars" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id EAA09968 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:46:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id EAA09958 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:46:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-005.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wlYj1-000G0mC; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:46:31 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 421 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Superluminal velocity of quasars Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 13:43:36 +0100 Kyle wrote: >One last thing: relativity does NOT (for me) explain superluminal >velocity of quasars. I know the velocity trick, but isn't that >contradiction with the Lorentz transformation addition of velocity? >Maybe they just didn't want to get into something real hard to explain. >Or maybe I misunderstood. Read the following, it might answer some questions: http://www.achilles.net/~jtalbot/news/3C345.html Tim From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 8 04:46 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1709" "Tue" "8" "July" "1997" "13:43:20" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "45" "starship-design: Aliens, Why don't we see them?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id EAA10004 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:46:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id EAA09994 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-005.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wlYil-000G0jC; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:46:15 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1708 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Aliens, Why don't we see them? Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 13:43:20 +0100 Lee, >At some point in development every star faring race would have to pass >through a point where they radiated some sort of energy that is distinctly >not a natural product. Whether it is simply radio, neutrinos, or gravitons >is simply irrelevant. SOMETHING must be radiated at some point in time that >would give away their presence. The only alternative is to assume a degree >of paranoia that I find totally unbelievable. > >The argument about our "potential" fusion drives is equally irrelevant. I >wasn't speaking of anything so primitive. Same goes for timespan, remember >Zeno's paradox? I wouldn't know which Paradox of Zeno you have in mind. >Apply the same line of reasoning to this argument. It doesn't matter how long >we have been looking, there should be some trace visible in our sky AT EVERY >SINGLE MOMENT. Isn't there a lot of controversy about this reasoning? I'd guess the biggest question is whether a technological lifeform can arise quick enough to escape death by global catastrophes. >The Federation of United Planets is pure anthropomorphic garbage. To ascribe >human values, motives and logic to an alien species is totally unreasonable >and dangerous to boot. Ah, human values cannot be ascribed to aliens, but their (technical) development can be assumed to be similar? Please explain this apparent discrepancy. Having a union is not just matter of value, it is a matter of savety and way of speeding up development by sharing information. >No, if they are indeed out there, they are either (all) much too far away, too >few or more likely, both. Hmmm, if you use Zeno's paradox (or whatever you mean with that), then I can't understand the line above. Timothy From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 8 04:47 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2599" "Tue" "8" "July" "1997" "13:43:23" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "57" "starship-design: Aliens, why haven't they contact us?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id EAA10045 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id EAA10033 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:47:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-005.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wlYio-000G0hC; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:46:18 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 2598 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Aliens, why haven't they contact us? Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 13:43:23 +0100 Kelly, >>Why would the aliens not wear special suits that are near 100% bioshields? > >If anything leaks out. It sould stand out like a neon sign. (HEY! This >species of microbe doesn't use our kind of DNA!!) If a few bacteria leak out, they may very well be killed before they can replicate and mutate. And if indeed aliens are in abundance, they may have infected Earth long ago. Furthermore, there is speculation that microbes come to Earth by meteorites and dirty snowballs every day. >>As many suggest, aliens might cause an unwanted psychological effect >>(apathy, hysteria) in most cultures. A reasonable alien race would not just >>make contact without thought. Therefore it is likely that they still hide. > >This ones kind of a bogus prejudice on 20th century types part. > Historiocally human cultures routinely ran into alien non person cultures. > Ok, most were just the next tribe over. But to them that was as shockingly >alien as aliens would be to us. The tribes seldom wen't hysterical and >colapsed at the site. If they were in conflict they fought. If not they >tried to trade or ignored one another. You may have a point about older cultures. But I believe that for many today the world view would change more than they could cope with. My best guess is, that old civilisations believed in miracles, so a strange species wasn't much of a shock. (I believe that several European explorers where seen as gods) A reason to believe that mentality has changed too is that not so many centuries ago, the fear for the unknown was really bad (witchhunt). One may wonder why old civilisations never benefited from alien intervention. Maybe they did, but where not interested in technological progres. Or maybe they didn't because aliens may have little incentive to help us out. In one of our private discussions you also mentioned apathy as a result of seeing that others are much more advanced and discovered long ago what you only held possible in your dreams. Also for quite some time, sudden balance shifts in economical and military power would have been rather critical. This can't be bogus, otherwise I'd see little reason for certain programs to be secret (stealth planes). >Besides. We never worry much about droping in on aborigional cultures. The reason for us dropping in on aborigional cultures is usually for resources. What happened to the aboriginals seemed to be less important with the result that it disappeared rather fast. Aliens are likely to have little interest in resources on Earth, so contacting us would likely only create problems. Tim From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 8 04:47 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["587" "Tue" "8" "July" "1997" "13:43:28" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "20" "starship-design: Re: Truely adventurous" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id EAA10130 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:47:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id EAA10120 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:47:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-005.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wlYit-000G0eC; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:46:23 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 586 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Truely adventurous Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 13:43:28 +0100 Antonio, >It is one of my intellectual limitations that : I cannot imagine or >accept an un-adventurous or "un-romantic" scientist. I know little about you, so I wouldn't know where to start making comparisons that may clarify matters. Are you a scientist yourself? If so in what direction/subjects? >Meaning, one that >is not inebriated and elevated by the contemplation of knowledge and the >acquisition of knowledge. The "book-keepers of science" should not be >confused with scientists. It is not directly "un-adventurous" what I meant, it is more "controlled adventure". Tim From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 8 04:52 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["171" "Tue" "8" "July" "1997" "13:49:40" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "9" "starship-design: Re: Telescopes in Orbit" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id EAA10440 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id EAA10418 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 04:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-005.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wlYot-000G0mC; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:52:35 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 170 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Telescopes in Orbit Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 13:49:40 +0100 Lee wrote: >It seems I missed something, apparently there was an error in someone's math? I'll sent you a compiled letter, that hopefully resolves your problems. Tim From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 8 06:03 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1588" "Tue" "8" "July" "1997" "07:37:54" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "41" "RE: starship-design: Aliens, Why don't we see them?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id GAA20228 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 06:03:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA20218 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 06:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p45.gnt.com (x2p16.gnt.com [204.49.68.221]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA25897 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 08:03:38 -0500 Received: by x2p45.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC8B75.6F5E0B40@x2p45.gnt.com>; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 08:03:35 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC8B75.6F5E0B40@x2p45.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1587 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Aliens, Why don't we see them? Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 07:37:54 -0500 Timothy, >Isn't there a lot of controversy about this reasoning? The fallacy of Zeno's Paradox is that space is not infinite which he assumed it was. When I applied reasoning similar to his I made no such assumption or I would have concluded that "our sky WOULD BE COMPLETELY FULL OF VISIBLE TRACES AT EVERY SINGLE MOMENT" >Ah, human values cannot be ascribed to aliens, but their (technical) >development can be assumed to be similar? Please explain this apparent >discrepancy. Easy enough. One assumes that physical laws are immutable, that they are the same throughout our universe (there has recently been some reason to doubt this). Therefore, whether or not another species follows our exact course of technical progress doesn't matter. In general they MUST discover basically the same things, perhaps sooner than we did, or later, or in a different order, but the same physical concepts. Social science on the other hand is not so cut and dried. You do not expect a group of whales to behave with human values do you? Or better yet, how about a bunch of lizards? And we are only talking about terrestrial species so far. If anything, the gap will widen for non- terrestrial species. Of course this whole argument is based on logic and everyone knows that logic is just a way of going wrong with confidence :-) Lee Parker (o o) ------------------------------------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo--------- "I share no man's opinions; I have my own." Ivan Sergeyevich Turgenev, Fathers and Sons, 1862 From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 8 09:26 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["136" "Tue" "8" "July" "1997" "10:25:56" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "5" "Re: starship-design: Superluminal velocity of quasars" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id JAA00392 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:26:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA00323 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:26:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa4dsp5.gpt.infi.net (pa4dsp5.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.101]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA02844 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:26:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33C27823.7EF3@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 135 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Superluminal velocity of quasars Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 10:25:56 -0700 According to that article, quasars are hot stars within our galaxy. How does a single star produce that much energy?? Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 8 20:26 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["11245" "Tue" "8" "July" "1997" "20:23:35" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "269" "starship-design: FW: SSRT: Funding for new SSTO X-vehicle missing (fwd)" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA04573 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA04560 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p45.gnt.com (x2p9.gnt.com [204.49.68.214]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA01640 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:26:31 -0500 Received: by x2p45.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC8BED.F1CBB320@x2p45.gnt.com>; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:26:13 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC8BED.F1CBB320@x2p45.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 11244 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: starship-design: FW: SSRT: Funding for new SSTO X-vehicle missing (fwd) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:23:35 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: Chris W. Johnson [SMTP:chrisj@mail.utexas.edu] Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 1997 4:11 PM To: Single Stage Rocket Technology News Subject: SSRT: Funding for new SSTO X-vehicle missing (fwd) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:30:44 -0700 (MST) From: Donald Doughty To: delta-clipper@world.std.com Subject: ALERT: Help Needed to correct Congressional Mistake! (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: delta-clipper-approval@world.std.com Reply-To: delta-clipper@world.std.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:32:06 -0400 (EDT) From: ProSpace97@aol.com Subject: ALERT: Help Needed to correct Congressional Mistake! ****************************************************** * ProSpace Legislative ACTION Alert * * Alert No. 97-9, 7/7/97 * ****************************************************** * Flawed NASA Spending Bill to be Marked up Tuesday * * "Citizen Action Needed to Correct Mistakes" * ****************************************************** * Distribute to ALL Lists -- Post to ALL Sites * ****************************************************** **************************************** * To be ADDED to this List, or * * to be REMOVED from this List * * send a request to SpFrontier@aol.com * **************************************** ************************************************ * TABLE OF CONTENTS * * * * A) House HUD/VA Appropriations Subcommittee * * makes big policy mistakes. * * * * B) Actions Needed: * * -> Call Your Member of Congress (Monday) * * -> Call/Fax Member(s) of Appropriations * * Committee * * * ************************************************ * World Wide Web: www.prospace.org * ************************************************ ******************************************* A) House HUD/VA Subcommittee makes Mistakes ******************************************* Late last month, in very quiet action, the House Appropriations Subcommittee on VA, HUD and Independent Agencies marked up its spending bill and sent it to the full Appropriations Committee for consideration on Tuesday. The House VA/HUD Appropriations Subcommittee has taken several controversial actions, which in the opinion of ProSpace President Charles Miller "are major space policy blunders." According to Miller, "Subcommittee Chairman Jerry Lewis (R, CA) totally disregarded the policy guidance of the full Science Committee in at least 2 areas. First, Science Committee Chairman James Sensenbrenner has held several hearings about, and is in the news every other week expressing his concerns about the Russian's ability to keep their commitments to this country. He has personally gone over to Russia to make his views perfectly clear. Yet, HUD/VA has decided to REWARD Russia's failure with a $100 Million pay-off. Second, the Commercial Space Authorization Act of 1998 and 1999 (H.R. 1275), which was approved by the full House, specifically authorized at least $300 Million in FY 1998 funding for a new SSTO RLV X-vehicle. This was clearly established as the top priority for new spending -- yet the HUD/VA Subcommittee gave it nothing. Miller continued, "This HUD/VA bill contains zero vision for America's future. It is driven by bureaucratic inertia, and serves only bureaucracy. A Democratic President promised an end to the "Era of Big Government but at least one Republican leader in Congress seems to like the status quo. Miller concluded, "Just a few months ago, we briefed 220 Members of Congress on a'Citizens Space Agenda.' 98% of the Members of Congress were extremely interested in what we had to say, but clearly at least one important Member did not listen to anything we said." "I am disappointed, but the American people are not going away. We are going to "open the space frontier for ALL Americans. The future -- the life we will live in the 21st Century -- is at stake right now. The American public's voice will be heard." *************************************** B) CALL TO ACTION -- Call Congress Now! *************************************** The full Appropriations Committee is meeting on Tuesday to review the HUD/VA bill. We need Americans to call as many Members of the Committee as possible on Monday (and ask your friends to call too!) **** What to Do **** 1) Call or FAX one (or more) Members from the list below of Members on the Appropriations Committee. Look first for a Member of Congress from your home state. There are Members from 32 states on the Committee, so you have a good chance. The Members are sorted by State. If you send a Fax, keep it short and to the point. You want them to read it immediately. 2) Politely ask for the Staffer responsible for Appropriations. (If you get their voice-mail, good. Leave a detailed message.) 3) POLITELY deliver the following message: * You feel that the NASA portion of the HUD/VA bill rewards bureaucracy and big government instead of funding the space priorities of the American people. * "The most important new spending priority for space is "Future-X! This program could help open the space frontier for millions of Americans, and save billions of dollars for the American taxpayer." * "Future-X" was authorized for over $300 Million in FY 1998 within H.R. 1275, the Civilian Space Authorization Act of 1998 and 1999, but HUD/VA bill contains no funding for it." * "Please add $300 Million for "Future-X" during the markup on Tuesday." * Keep it short and thank them for their time. 4) Call your own Member of Congress: a) Call your own Member. (Call 202-224-3121 to get phone number from the Congressional Operator) b) Identify yourself as a constituent, and ask for the staffer responsible for space. (If you get their voice-mail, leave a detailed message.) c) Be ready to give your home address to identify yourself as a constituent. d) Explain the situation (above) to the space staffer. e) Politely tell the staffer that you would like your Congressional Representative to support a "Citizens Space Agenda." Specifically ask for a call Rep. Bob Livingston (R, LA) or Rep. David Obey (D, WI) -- the Chairman and Senior Minority Member of the Appropriations Committee, to request an increase of $300 Million for "Future-X." e) Unless the staffer has questions, thank the staffer for his or her time, and sign off. Contact Information for the House Appropriations Committee Appropriations, Chairman PHONE FAX Livingston, Robert (R, LA) 202-225-3015 202-225-0739 Appropriations, Ranking Minority Member) Obey, David (D, WI) 202-225-3365 202-225-0561 Aderholt, Robert (R, AL) 202-225-4876 202-225-5587 Callahan, Sonny (R, AL) 202-225-4931 202-225-0562 Dickey, Jay (R, AR) 202-225-3772 202-225-8646 Kolbe, James T. (R, AZ) 202-225-2542 202-225-0378 Pastor, Ed (D, AZ) 202-225-4065 202-225-1655 Lewis, Jerry (R, CA) 202-225-5861 202-225-6498 Torres, Esteban (D, CA) 202-225-5256 202-225-9711 Pelosi, Nancy (D, CA) 202-225-4965 202-225-8259 Fazio, Vic (D, CA) 202-225-5716 202-225-0354 Dixon, Julian C. (D, CA) 202-225-7084 202-225-4091 Packard, Ronald (R, CA) 202-225-3906 202-225-0134 Randy Cunningham (R, CA) 202-225-5452 202-225-2558 David E. Skaggs (D, CO) 202-225-2161 202-225-9127 DeLauro, Rosa (D, CT) 202-225-3661 202-225-4890 Miller, Dan (R, FL) 202-225-5015 202-226-0828 Young, C. W. Bill (R, FL) 202-225-5961 202-225-9764 Meek, Carrie P. (D, FL) 202-225-4506 202-226-0777 Kingston, Jack (R, GA) 202-225-5831 202-226-2269 Latham, Tom (R, IA) 202-225-5476 202-225-3301 Yates, Sidney R. (D, IL) 202-225-2111 202-225-3493 Porter, John E. (R, IL) 202-225-4835 202-225-0157 Visclosky, Peter J. (D, IN) 202-225-2461 202-225-2493 Tiahrt, Todd (R, KS) 202-225-6216 202-225-3489 Rogers, Harold (R, KY) 202-225-4601 202-225-0940 Northup, Anne (R, KY) 202-225-5401 202-225-5776 Olver, John (D, MA) 202-225-5335 202-225-1224 Hoyer, Steny H. (D, MD) 202-225-4131 202-225-4300 Knollenberg, Joe (R, MI) 202-225-5802 202-226-2356 Sabo, Martin Olav (D, MN) 202-225-4755 202-225-4886 Wicker, Roger (R, MS) 202-225-4306 202-225-4328 Parker, Mike (R, MS) 202-225-5865 202-225-5886 Taylor, Charles Hart (R, NC) 202-225-6401 202-251-0794 Hefner, Bill (D, NC) 202-225-3715 202-225-4036 Price, David (D, NC) 202-225-4511 202-225-2237 Frelinghuysen, Rodney (R, NJ) 202-225-5034 202-225-0658 Skeen, Joseph (R, NM) 202-225-2365 202-225-9599 Lowey, Nita M. (D, NY) 202-225-6506 202-225-0546 Forbes, Michael (R, NY) 202-225-3826 202-225-0776 Walsh, James T. (R, NY) 202-225-3701 202-225-4042 Serrano, Jose (D, NY) 202-225-4361 202-225-6001 Stokes, Louis (D, OH) 202-225-7032 202-225-1339 Kaptur, Marcy (D, OH) 202-225-4146 202-225-7711 Regula, Ralph (R, OH) 202-225-3876 202-225-3059 Hobson, David L. (R, OH) 202-225-4324 202-225-1984 Istook, Ernest Jim (R, OK) 202-225-2132 202-226-1463 Murtha, John P. (D, PA) 202-225-2065 202-225-5709 McDade, Joseph M. (R, PA) 202-225-3731 202-225-9594 Foglietta, Thomas M. (D, PA) 202-225-4731 202-225-0088 Wamp, Zach (R, TN) 202-225-3271 202-225-3494 Bonilla, Henry (R, TX) 202-225-4511 202-225-2237 DeLay, Thomas (R, TX) 202-225-5951 202-225-5241 Edwards, Chet (D TX) 202-225-6105 202-225-0350 Wolf, Frank R. (R, VA) 202-225-5136 202-225-0437 Moran, James P (D VA) 202-225-0017 202-225-0017 Nethercutt, George (R, WA) 202-225-2006 202-225-7181 Dicks, Norman D. (D, WA) 202-225-5916 202-226-1176 Neumann, Mark (R, WI) 202-225-3031 202-225-3393 Mollohan, Alan B. (D, WV) 202-225-4172 202-225-7564 Destiny is not a matter of chance; it is a matter of choice. It is not a thing to be waited for; it is a thing to be achieved. - William Jennings Bryan *********************************** "Opening the Space Frontier for ALL People, and as soon as possible" E-mail: ProSpace97@aol.com Web: www.prospace.org *********************************** From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 8 20:27 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["10086" "Tue" "8" "July" "1997" "20:24:03" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "213" "starship-design: FW: SSRT: Space Access action alert 7/4/97 (fwd)" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA04677 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:27:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA04652 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:27:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p45.gnt.com (x2p9.gnt.com [204.49.68.214]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA01666 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:26:55 -0500 Received: by x2p45.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC8BEE.00BA06C0@x2p45.gnt.com>; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:26:39 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC8BEE.00BA06C0@x2p45.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 10085 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: starship-design: FW: SSRT: Space Access action alert 7/4/97 (fwd) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:24:03 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: Chris W. Johnson [SMTP:chrisj@mail.utexas.edu] Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 1997 4:06 PM To: Single Stage Rocket Technology News Subject: SSRT: Space Access action alert 7/4/97 (fwd) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:30:00 -0700 (MST) From: Donald Doughty To: delta-clipper@world.std.com Subject: Space Access political action alert 7/4/97 (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: delta-clipper-approval@world.std.com Reply-To: delta-clipper@world.std.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 12:50:05 -0400 (EDT) >From: hvanderbilt@BIX.com >To: hvanderbilt@BIX.com >Subject: Space Access political action alert 7/4/97 Space Access Society Political Action Alert 7/4/97 We have multiple critical funding events taking place as soon as Congress is back in session post-holiday, this coming Tuesday July 8th. - The full House Appropriations Committee is marking up the HUD/VA/Independent Agencies (NASA) appropriation bill. We'd like to see $300 million added for "Future X", matching the House NASA Authorization funding, albeit with slightly different emphasis than the House Auth's one-project-wins-all wording. "Future X" is more a range of projects. - Both the House and Senate Appropriations Defense subcommittees mark up their bills. We'd like to see $75 million for DOD spaceplane technology work added in both markups. - The Senate Defense Authorization goes to the floor for debate and amendment by the full Senate. We'd like to see the $10 million authorized for military spaceplane work increased to $75 million, to get this work off to a fast start. News Summary The X-33 emergency "tiger team" program review's results are coming out. In short, NASA and Lockheed-Martin have finally admitted X-33 has serious problems, and are moving to fix them. 5,000 lbs of weight reductions that don't reduce program scope have been identified, aerodynamic problems continue to be worked, widely scattered project management is being concentrated at Skunk Works in Palmdale, and there are strong indications that Lockheed-Martin is prepared to eat the expected cost overruns. We're cautiously optimistic that something useful might fly after all, and that NASA RLV is (expensively) learning what not to do with future space X-vehicles. The House DOD Authorization committee markup added $16.2 million for preliminary "spaceplane" tech work, while the Senate added $10 million. It's a good start - our thanks to everyone who helped bring it about. Space Frontier Foundation is running a NASA sponsored "Cheap Access" symposium at the Hyatt Regency Capitol Hill (400 New Jersey Ave NW in Washington DC, $79/night summer rate available) Monday July 21st and Tuesday July 22nd. Admission is free, NASA's paying the expenses. This looks like being heavily weighted towards major aerospace and DC insiders; cheap access activists who can attend will leaven the mix. We'll be on a Tuesday afternoon panel. Info and online registration at http://www.space-frontier.org/CATS. And it's Space Access Society's fifth anniversary; we were founded on July 4th 1992. We've made considerable progress since then - less than we'd hoped but more than we'd feared. Here's hoping that five years from now we'll be flying rockets, not arguing about them! Alert Details This alert is for everybody - if you don't have a Representative on the House Appropriations Committee or a Represenatative or Senator on the House or Senate Appropriations Defense Subcommittees, you do have two Senators who could if they wish intervene in the Senate Defense Authorization floor action. It may be a long shot, but if you don't ask, they definitely won't help. Yours might just be the one message that by luck and persuasiveness convinces one Senator to take action. Call or fax - time is too short for paper mail, unless you pay for overnight delivery Monday. If you call, ask to speak to the LA (legislative assistant) for NASA or for DOD R&D, as appropriate. Chances are you'll get their voicemail. Voicemail or in person, identify yourself as a constituent (Hi, I'm Joe Smith from Sheboygan), make your pitch briefly (ask them to support $XXm funding for YY), give them a one-sentence reason why you think its important, thank them for their time, and ring off. Unless you get them live and they have questions; in that case do your best to answer them. If you fax, keep it short, one page max, and state your main point at the start, then briefly give supporting points. And either way, be polite - one bad impression could waste a lot of good impressions. House Appropriations Committee (call or fax and ask support for $300m NASA "future X" funding in the NASA Appropriations markup) (* means defense subcommittee, also call or fax and ask support for $75m DOD spaceplane technology funding in USAF PE 63401F in the Defense Appropriations markup.) (Appropriations Chair) voice fax *Livingston, Robert (R-01 LA) 1-202-225-3015 1-202-225-0739 (Appropriations Ranking Minority Member) *Obey, David R. (D-07) 1-202-225-3365 1-202-225-0561 (NatSec Subcommittee Chair) *Young, C. W. Bill (R-10 FL) 1-202-225-5961 1-202-225-9764 (NatSecSubcommittee RMM) *Murtha, John P. (D-12 PA) 1-202-225-2065 1-202-225-5709 Robert Aderholt (R AL) Callahan, Sonny (R-01 AL) 1-202-225-4931 1-202-225-0562 Dickey, Jay (R-04 AR) 1-202-225-3772 1-202-225-8646 Kolbe, James T. (R-05 AZ) 1-202-225-2542 1-202-225-0378 Ed Pastor (D AZ) *Lewis, Jerry (R-40 CA) 1-202-225-5861 1-202-225-6498 Torres, Esteban E. (D-34 CA) 1-202-225-5256 1-202-225-9711 Pelosi, Nancy (D-08 CA) 1-202-225-4965 1-202-225-8259 Fazio, Vic (D-03 CA) 1-202-225-5716 1-202-225-0354 *Dixon, Julian C. (D-32 CA) 1-202-225-7084 1-202-225-4091 Packard, Ronald (R-48 CA) 1-202-225-3906 1-202-225-0134 *Randy Cunningham (R CA) Skaggs, David E. (D-02 CO) 1-202-225-2161 1-202-225-9127 Rosa DeLaura (D CT) Miller, Dan (R-13 FL) 1-202-225-5015 1-202-226-0828 Carrie P Meek (D FL) Kingston, Jack (R-01 GA) 1-202-225-5831 1-202-226-2269 Tom Latham (R IA) Yates, Sidney R. (D-09 IL) 1-202-225-2111 1-202-225-3493 Porter, John E. (R-10 IL) 1-202-225-4835 1-202-225-0157 *Visclosky, Peter J. (D-01 IN) 1-202-225-2461 1-202-225-2493 Todd Tiahrt (R KS) Rogers, Harold (R-05 KY) 1-202-225-4601 1-202-225-0940 Anne Northup (R KY) John W Olver (D MA) Hoyer, Steny H. (D-05 MD) 1-202-225-4131 1-202-225-4300 Knollenberg, Joe (R-11 MI) 1-202-225-5802 1-202-226-2356 *Sabo, Martin Olav (D-05 MN) 1-202-225-4755 1-202-225-4886 Wicker, Roger (R-01 MS) 1-202-225-4306 1-202-225-4328 Mike Parker (R MS) Taylor, Charles Hart (R-11 NC) 1-202-225-6401 1-202-251-0794 *Hefner, Bill (D-08 NC) 1-202-225-3715 1-202-225-4036 David E Price (D NC) Frelinghuysen, Rodney (R-11 NJ) 1-202-225-5034 1-202-225-0658 *Skeen, Joseph (R-02 NM) 1-202-225-2365 1-202-225-9599 Lowey, Nita M. (D-18 NY) 1-202-225-6506 1-202-225-0546 Forbes, Michael (R-01 NY) 1-202-225-3826 1-202-225-0776 Walsh, James T. (R-25 NY) 1-202-225-3701 1-202-225-4042 Jose Serrano (D NY) Kaptur, Marcy (D-09 OH) 1-202-225-4146 1-202-225-7711 Stokes, Louis (D-11 OH) 1-202-225-7032 1-202-225-1339 Regula, Ralph (R-16 OH) 1-202-225-3876 1-202-225-3059 *Hobson, David L. (R-07 OH) 1-202-225-4324 1-202-225-1984 *Istook, Ernest Jim (R-05 OK) 1-202-225-2132 1-202-226-1463 *McDade, Joseph M. (R-10 PA) 1-202-225-3731 1-202-225-9594 Foglietta, Thomas M. (D-01 PA) 1-202-225-4731 1-202-225-0088 Zach Wamp (R TN) *Bonilla, Henry (R-23 TX) 1-202-225-4511 1-202-225-2237 DeLay, Thomas (R-22 TX) 1-202-225-5951 1-202-225-5241 Chet Edwards (D TX) Wolf, Frank R. (R-10 VA) 1-202-225-5136 1-202-225-0437 James P Moran (D VA) *Nethercutt, George (R-05 WA) 1-202-225-2006 1-202-225-7181 *Dicks, Norman D. (D-06 WA) 1-202-225-5916 1-202-226-1176 Neumann, Mark (R-01 WI) 1-202-225-3031 1-202-225-3393 Mollohan, Alan B. (D-01 WV) 1-202-225-4172 1-202-225-7564 Senate Appropriations Defense Subcommittee (ask for $75m DOD spaceplane funding in USAF PE 63401F in the Defense Appropriations markup.) voice fax Sen. Stevens, Ted (R AK) 1-202-224-3004 1-202-224-1044 (chair, SAC NatSec Sub) Sen. Inouye, Daniel (D HI) 1-202-224-3934 1-202-224-6747 (Ranking Minority Member, SAC NatSec Sub) Sen. Cochran, Thad (R MS) 1-202-224-5054 1-202-224-3576 Sen. Domenici, Pete V. (R NM) 1-202-224-6621 1-202-224-7371 Sen. McConnell, Mitch (R KY) 1-202-224-2541 1-202-224-2499 Sen. Specter, Arlen (R PA) 1-202-224-4254 1-202-224-1893 Sen. Bond, Christopher (R MO) 1-202-224-5721 1-202-224-8149 Sen. Shelby, Richard C. (R AL) 1-202-224-5744 1-202-224-3416 Sen. Hollings, Ernest (D SC) 1-202-224-6121 1-202-224-4293 Sen. Byrd, Robert (D WV) 1-202-224-3954 1-202-224-4025 Sen. Leahy, Patrick (D VT) 1-202-224-4242 1-202-224-3595 Sen. Harkin, Thomas (D IA) 1-202-224-3254 1-202-224-7431 Sen. Lautenberg, Frank (D NJ) 1-202-224-4744 1-202-224-9707 Sen. Hutchison, Kay Bailey (R TX) Sen. Gregg, Judd (R NH) Sen. Bumpers, Dale (D AR) Sen. Dorgan, Byron (D ND) Full Senate (look up your Senators in the phonebook, in the Federal government section of the "blue pages". Call the local number and ask for the DC office number.) Ask for support for $75m in DOD spaceplane technology work in USAF PE 63401F in the Defense Authorization bill. *end* From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 8 20:40 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["77" "Tue" "8" "July" "1997" "21:40:14" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "4" "starship-design: Hello?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA07869 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA07858 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:40:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pa4dsp5.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-91.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.91]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA04695 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:40:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33C3162D.3BCA@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 76 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Hello? Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 21:40:14 -0700 No responses to my messages. I'm still a member, right? Kyle R. Mcallister From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 8 23:16 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3754" "Tue" "8" "July" "1997" "23:16:56" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "76" "starship-design: Raise the limit? " "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id XAA12393 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA12376 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:16:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (cisco-ts7-line2.uoregon.edu [128.223.150.49]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA27176; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) id XAA04397; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:16:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707090616.XAA04397@tzadkiel.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <33C19E6F.E17@sunherald.infi.net> References: <33C19E6F.E17@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.15p6 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 3753 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: kyle Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Raise the limit? Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:16:56 -0700 kyle writes: > I was wondering about FTL travel, and ask myself "why do we really need > it?" To get somewhere fast. Why not abandon FTL until physics gets that > far and simply travel without traversing the space between two points? > You could theoretically travel from any point to any point without > having to exceed the speed of light, AND taking a very short travel time > in earth's reference point. The problem with this is that so far the only known way to curve space is to concentrate mass. Furthermore, curving space doesn't easily allow for the sort of curvature > One other possibility: the speed of light can be raised, so why bother > with FTL? Just boost the speed of light to say, 150,000,000,000 m/sec? > One question: how much energy is needed? In the case of the Casimir effect, the speed of light is increased in a region between two charged plates. Even if you could get rid of the plates, the problem with this is either making the region large enough to allow travel over a great distance, or getting the region itself to travel faster than c. >From my study of the physics involved, my suspicion is that any FTL technique will probably take much more energy than relativistic travel. I think that if FTL is ever developed it will probably only be used for the most critical applications, because it will be so much more expensive. > One last thing: relativity does NOT (for me) explain superluminal > velocity of quasars. I know the velocity trick, but isn't that > contradiction with the Lorentz transformation addition of velocity? > Maybe they just didn't want to get into something real hard to explain. > Or maybe I misunderstood. Let's consider a simplified version of this phenomenon. Using a powerful telescope, you observe a craft depart from a distant planet headed toward you for another planet a light-year closer to you. Using measurements of doppler-shifted light from the craft, you can tell that it's moving at 0.8 c. Continuing to observe the craft, you see that it reaches its destination after only 0.25 years of observation. So it moved one light-year in 0.25 years, meaning it traveled at 4 c, right? Well, not really. This doesn't even really require relativity to resolve, because it's really just an effect of the finite speed of light. When you observe the craft departing the planet and (in a negligible time, for our purposes) accelerating to 0.8 c, the ship itself is lagging not too far behind the light that it emitted on departure. When it reaches its destination planet a light-year closer to you, it's traveled 1 light-year in 1.25 years (1 / 0.8) of your time; in that time the light it emitted on departure has travelled 1.25 light years, so those approaching photons are only 0.25 light-years ahead of the photons it emitted on reaching its destination, and you see those photons arrive only 0.25 years apart. For something headed directly toward you, the apparent velocity you see is v / (1 - v). For any v > 0.5 c, this produces an apparent velocity of approach greater than c, and as the object approaches the speed of light, the apparent velocity of approach goes to infinity, as the object lags less and less behind the light that you're using to perceive it. Note that the apparent superluminal motion happens only when the object approaches you; the converse result is that an object moving away appears to recede at no more than 1/2 c even when its velocity is close to -1 c. Exercises 3-15 and 3-16 (pp. 89-92) in _Spacetime Physics_ go into more detail on this phenomenon. Exercise 3-16 specifically covers the analysis of a "superluminal" jet from a quasar and the more general case of objects approaching at an angle rather than straight-on. From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 8 23:59 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1240" "Tue" "8" "July" "1997" "23:59:33" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "24" "starship-design: Raise the limit? " "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id XAA19308 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA19298 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:59:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (cisco-ts10-line10.uoregon.edu [128.223.150.108]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA00886 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:58:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) id XAA04524; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:59:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707090659.XAA04524@tzadkiel.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <199707090616.XAA04397@tzadkiel.efn.org> References: <33C19E6F.E17@sunherald.infi.net> <199707090616.XAA04397@tzadkiel.efn.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.15p6 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 1239 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Raise the limit? Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:59:33 -0700 Steve VanDevender writes: > kyle writes: > > I was wondering about FTL travel, and ask myself "why do we really need > > it?" To get somewhere fast. Why not abandon FTL until physics gets that > > far and simply travel without traversing the space between two points? > > You could theoretically travel from any point to any point without > > having to exceed the speed of light, AND taking a very short travel time > > in earth's reference point. > > The problem with this is that so far the only known way to curve space > is to concentrate mass. Furthermore, curving space doesn't easily allow > for the sort of curvature Bleah. I meant to finish that paragraph, really :-) Furthermore, curving space doesn't easily allow for travel that looks subluminal in one direction but superluminal in others. Speculative "space warps" like Tipler's infinite rotating cylinder or Kerr-Newman black holes aren't easy to construct -- the Tipler cylinder would collapse axially, and you can't spin a black hole up to the point of being able to access the singularity without being trapped in the black hole. And either method, again, uses tremendous amounts of energy that could be used to fuel many relativistic starships. From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 9 06:17 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1690" "Wed" "9" "July" "1997" "15:15:17" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "43" "starship-design: Re: Aliens, Why don't we see them?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id GAA23963 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 06:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA23951 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 06:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-004.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wlwdF-000GbEC; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:18:09 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1689 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Aliens, Why don't we see them? Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 15:15:17 +0100 Lee, >>Isn't there a lot of controversy about this reasoning? > >The fallacy of Zeno's Paradox is that space is not infinite which he >assumed it was. When I applied reasoning similar to his I made no >such assumption or I would have concluded that "our sky WOULD BE >COMPLETELY FULL OF VISIBLE TRACES AT EVERY SINGLE MOMENT" Sorry, I'm a bit confused by the grammar. Are you or are you not concluding that the sky should be full of visible traces at every single moments? >Social science on the other hand is not so cut and dried. You do not >expect a group of whales to behave with human values do you? Or better >yet, how about a bunch of lizards? And we are only talking about >terrestrial species so far. If anything, the gap will widen for non- >terrestrial species. Social science is for the biggest part based on survival, which is rather straightforward. - If a species doesn't work together, they are not likely to be able to develop anything complex. - Thus an important need to get a technical civilization is to cooperate in some way. - Once having a technical civilization, you have two options when finding a similar advanced species: Kill or be friends. - Killing will risk all you care for. (And you do care, since you are a cooperative species.) So you will only kill if you have nothing to loose. - Thus the only option left is to be friends. >Of course this whole argument is based on logic and everyone knows >that logic is just a way of going wrong with confidence :-) Yes, the sentence right above, proofs what it says :p If you find errors in my logic, I'd like to hear about it, so that I will be enabled to increase confidence. Timothy From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 9 06:18 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["914" "Wed" "9" "July" "1997" "15:15:15" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "24" "starship-design: Re: Superluminal velocity of quasars" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id GAA24049 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 06:18:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA24028 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 06:18:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-004.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wlwdD-000Gb7C; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:18:07 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 913 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Superluminal velocity of quasars Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 15:15:15 +0100 Kyle, >According to that article, quasars are hot stars within our galaxy. How >does a single star produce that much energy?? >From what I understand from: http://www.achilles.net/~jtalbot/V1979/index.html (This is the first link of the page I reffered to last time) The stars don't produce that much energy. Because of the abnormal redshift, astronomers used to believe that it was far outside our galaxy. So since it was as bright as normal stars and so far away it should be very energetic. But since a few decades astronomers find more and more evidence that the redshift seen from Quasars is not related to their distance from Earth. Therefore their power output has to be much lower to give the same brightness. The final question may be what causes this abnormal redshift. I haven't been able yet to figure out what the experts believe but think that it has to do with natural laser action. Timothy From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 9 07:11 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1345" "Wed" "9" "July" "1997" "16:09:09" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "34" "starship-design: Quasar spectra" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id HAA02630 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 07:11:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA02618 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 07:11:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-004.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wlxTO-000GXqC; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 16:12:02 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1344 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Quasar spectra Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 16:09:09 +0100 Kyle, It seems I found what I was looking for. The abnormal redshifts are not really there according to http://www.achilles.net/~jtalbot/V1979/redshift.html If I understand correctly, the way in which redshifts are measured depends on the intensities of different spectral lines. So as long as you know what the intensities should be, you can determine the redshift. But QSO's cause unexpected relative intensities and therefore disturb the expected pattern (that is, if you don't look well enough, you will be fooled) One might expect that figuring out the redshift from spectral data is not that difficult, after all, just apply the frequency shift formula and see if the adjusted spectra match known emission frequencies. This indeed would be the case, if the quality of the spectra was very good. But in reality the spectra are poor (much overlapping peaks, etc), and a bit of educated (=knowing the physics behind the peaks) guesswork is involved. As long as things are normal the guesses will usually be right, but if unexpected things (=increased spectrum lines by natural laser action) happen in the spectra then mistakes will be made. Timothy For the curvefitting the PLS (partial least squares) model is used. Check out http://www.galactic.com/galactic/Science/pls.htm to figure out what it is and what assumptions are made. From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 9 07:46 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3532" "Wed" "9" "July" "1997" "09:11:22" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "76" "RE: starship-design: Re: Aliens, Why don't we see them?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id HAA08797 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 07:46:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA08775 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 07:46:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p45.gnt.com (x2p1.gnt.com [204.49.68.206]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA26809 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:46:08 -0500 Received: by x2p45.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC8C4C.E9D53B00@x2p45.gnt.com>; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:46:02 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC8C4C.E9D53B00@x2p45.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 3531 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Re: Aliens, Why don't we see them? Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:11:22 -0500 Timothy, Prepare for a dose of confidence... :-) >>The fallacy of Zeno's Paradox is that space is not infinite which he >>assumed it was. When I applied reasoning similar to his I made no >>such assumption or I would have concluded that "our sky WOULD BE >>COMPLETELY FULL OF VISIBLE TRACES AT EVERY SINGLE MOMENT" >Sorry, I'm a bit confused by the grammar. Are you or are you not concluding >that the sky should be full of visible traces at every single moments? Zeno's Paradox dealt with why the sky was dark at night. His reasoning (logic) was simply that there were an infinite number of stars so there should be an infinite amount of starlight falling upon the Earth all the time, even at night, therefore it would never get dark, but since it was obviously not light at night there was a paradox. Of course the error in his reasoning was two-fold. First of all, there aren't an infinite number of stars; and second, the concept of infinities were not yet properly understood. I paraphrased this (from memory) heavily, so please excuse any errors or omissions. The point I was making is that even though there aren't an infinite number of stars (and therefore a finite number of possible civilizations) the number is still large enough that assuming ANY figure for a percent of stars with star-faring civilizations, there would still be so many that we would HAVE to see some evidence somewhere. Yet we don't. I'm not concluding there is a paradox here :-), just that something is wrong with our fundamental assumptions about the frequency of life on other worlds. In any event I find it difficult to accept that we are alone, but observational evidence would seem to indicate that this is the case. >>Social science on the other hand is not so cut and dried. You do not >>expect a group of whales to behave with human values do you? Or better >>yet, how about a bunch of lizards? And we are only talking about >>terrestrial species so far. If anything, the gap will widen for non- >>terrestrial species. >Social science is for the biggest part based on survival, which is rather >straightforward. >- If a species doesn't work together, they are not likely to be able to > develop anything complex. >- Thus an important need to get a technical civilization is to cooperate > in some way. >- Once having a technical civilization, you have two options when finding > a similar advanced species: Kill or be friends. >- Killing will risk all you care for. (And you do care, since you are a > cooperative species.) > So you will only kill if you have nothing to loose. >- Thus the only option left is to be friends. Well that certainly sounds logical but your fundamental assertion is not valid, therefore the remaining arguments, however good, are also suspect. You cannot base an analysis of anything (much less social dynamics) on a single sample. Which effectively speaking is what Earth's entire ecosystem is - a single sample. As for the remainder of the arguments, they don't even hold for humans (just ask any student of international politics). I hope this has increased your level of confidence. Lee Parker (o o) ------------------------------------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo--------- Long experience has taught me not to believe in the limitations indicated by purely theoretical considerations. These - as we well know - are based on insufficient knowledge of all the relevant factors." Guglielmo Marconi From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 9 08:04 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["970" "Wed" "9" "July" "1997" "09:04:22" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "24" "Re: starship-design: Re: Superluminal velocity of quasars" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA14147 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA14123 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-95.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-95.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.95]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA02801; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:04:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33C3B685.2318@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 969 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: Timothy van der Linden CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Superluminal velocity of quasars Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 09:04:22 -0700 Timothy van der Linden wrote: > > Kyle, > > >From what I understand from: > http://www.achilles.net/~jtalbot/V1979/index.html > (This is the first link of the page I reffered to last time) > > The stars don't produce that much energy. Because of the abnormal redshift, > astronomers used to believe that it was far outside our galaxy. So since it > was as bright as normal stars and so far away it should be very energetic. > > But since a few decades astronomers find more and more evidence that the > redshift seen from Quasars is not related to their distance from Earth. > Therefore their power output has to be much lower to give the same brightness. > > The final question may be what causes this abnormal redshift. I haven't been > able yet to figure out what the experts believe but think that it has to do > with natural laser action. > That would certainly answer many questions about quasars (if true). Good article. Thank you for telling me about it. From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 9 08:12 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2642" "Wed" "9" "July" "1997" "09:12:11" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "58" "Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens, Why don't we see them?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA16073 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA16044 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:12:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-95.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-95.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.95]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA02221; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:12:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33C3B85B.7A56@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <01BC8C4C.E9D53B00@x2p45.gnt.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 2641 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: "L. Parker" CC: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens, Why don't we see them? Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 09:12:11 -0700 L. Parker wrote: > > The point I was making is that even though there aren't an infinite > number of stars (and therefore a finite number of possible civilizations) > the number is still large enough that assuming ANY figure for a percent > of stars with star-faring civilizations, there would still be so many > that we would HAVE to see some evidence somewhere. Yet we don't. Maybe we HAVE seen evidence...ever heard of "Fast Walker"? If not, I'll explain it. > I'm not > concluding there is a paradox here :-), just that something is wrong > with our fundamental assumptions about the frequency of life on other > worlds. In any event I find it difficult to accept that we are alone, > but observational evidence would seem to indicate that this is the case. > > >>Social science on the other hand is not so cut and dried. You do not > >>expect a group of whales to behave with human values do you? Or better > >>yet, how about a bunch of lizards? And we are only talking about > >>terrestrial species so far. If anything, the gap will widen for non- > >>terrestrial species. > > >Social science is for the biggest part based on survival, which is rather > >straightforward. > > >- If a species doesn't work together, they are not likely to be able to > > develop anything complex. > >- Thus an important need to get a technical civilization is to cooperate > > in some way. > >- Once having a technical civilization, you have two options when finding > > a similar advanced species: Kill or be friends. > >- Killing will risk all you care for. (And you do care, since you are a > > cooperative species.) > > So you will only kill if you have nothing to loose. > >- Thus the only option left is to be friends. > > Well that certainly sounds logical but your fundamental assertion is not > valid, therefore the remaining arguments, however good, are also suspect. > You cannot base an analysis of anything (much less social dynamics) on > a single sample. Which effectively speaking is what Earth's entire > ecosystem is - a single sample. > > As for the remainder of the arguments, they don't even hold for humans > (just ask any student of international politics). > > I hope this has increased your level of confidence. > > Lee Parker > > (o o) > ------------------------------------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo--------- > Long experience has taught me not to believe in the limitations indicated by > purely theoretical considerations. These - as we well know - are based on > insufficient knowledge of all the relevant factors." > > Guglielmo Marconi From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 9 09:20 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["62" "Wed" "9" "July" "1997" "11:19:32" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "7" "RE: starship-design: Re: Aliens, Why don't we see them?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id JAA11603 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA11585 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:20:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p45.gnt.com (x2p1.gnt.com [204.49.68.206]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA32016 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:20:21 -0500 Received: by x2p45.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC8C5A.14AF2860@x2p45.gnt.com>; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:20:18 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC8C5A.14AF2860@x2p45.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 61 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Re: Aliens, Why don't we see them? Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:19:32 -0500 Kyle, No, I have never heard of fast walker... Lee Parker From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 9 10:47 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["921" "Wed" "9" "July" "1997" "11:43:26" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "21" "starship-design: Fast Walker" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id KAA19091 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA19079 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:47:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-95.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-88.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.88]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA05374; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 13:43:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33C3DBCD.7C94@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 920 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: lparker@cacaphony.net, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Fast Walker Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 11:43:26 -0700 Greetings: Fast Walker is the nickname given to an object that was seen by some satelites we put in orbit to detect nuclear detonations. This object is strange in the fact that it approache earth, then veered away, producing enourmous amounts of energy. Here's where it gets weirder: It departed with LESS than escape velocity! Theoretically impossible, unless you have a drive system that produces antigravity! Maybe it was natural, but I seriously doubt it. Maybe I sound like a UFO nut, but I don't believe every story I hear (such as Roswell, where I say "Show me the alien debris", but who knows?) Think about how possible it is that we may have been visited then. Why did they not contact us? Remember the Avatar scenario? We took that into account quite well. Was it artificial? I personally think there's a good chance it was. Kyle Mcallister P.S.: I can give you some webpages about FastWalker if you like. From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 9 12:55 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2618" "Wed" "9" "July" "1997" "21:52:34" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "53" "starship-design: Re: Aliens, Why don't we see them?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id MAA06345 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 12:55:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA06311 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 12:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-017.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wm2pg-000JTfC; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:55:24 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 2617 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Aliens, Why don't we see them? Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 21:52:34 +0100 Lee, >Zeno's Paradox dealt with why the sky was dark at night. His reasoning >(logic) was simply that there were an infinite number of stars so there >should be an infinite amount of starlight falling upon the Earth all the >time, even at night, therefore it would never get dark, but since it was >obviously not light at night there was a paradox. Of course the error in >his reasoning was two-fold. First of all, there aren't an infinite >number of stars; and second, the concept of infinities were not yet >properly understood. I paraphrased this (from memory) heavily, so please >excuse any errors or omissions. Even if the universe was infinitely large, then the sky would still not need to be bright everywhere. In math it is perfectly possible to sum an infinite amount of numbers without getting an infinite answer. Indeed Zeno didn't know this. >The point I was making is that even though there aren't an infinite >number of stars (and therefore a finite number of possible civilizations) >the number is still large enough that assuming ANY figure for a percent >of stars with star-faring civilizations, there would still be so many >that we would HAVE to see some evidence somewhere. Yet we don't. I'm not >concluding there is a paradox here :-), just that something is wrong >with our fundamental assumptions about the frequency of life on other >worlds. In any event I find it difficult to accept that we are alone, >but observational evidence would seem to indicate that this is the case. Certainly not any number for a percent of stars with starfaring civilizations would produce a large enough chance to easely see them. I can think of reasonable numbers (with explanation) that decrease the number of detectable space-faring civilizations per galaxy to rather small numbers. >Well that certainly sounds logical but your fundamental assertion is not >valid, therefore the remaining arguments, however good, are also suspect. >You cannot base an analysis of anything (much less social dynamics) on >a single sample. Which effectively speaking is what Earth's entire >ecosystem is - a single sample. This has little to do with biology or single samples. It is just logic. Space technology needs a lot of effort to realize. It has to be a logical fact that no single organism can do that much work. >As for the remainder of the arguments, they don't even hold for humans >(just ask any student of international politics). It would be handy if you told me... Note that we are talking about civilizations that have no need anymore, to kill for resources (land, food, energy). Timothy From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 9 15:28 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["561" "Wed" "9" "July" "1997" "16:28:31" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "20" "starship-design: I have many questions..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA25928 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA25876 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:28:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-95.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-83.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.83]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA18045 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 18:28:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33C41E9E.66B3@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 560 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: I have many questions... Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 16:28:31 -0700 Greetings, I am working on something and wish to get my underlying physics correct (Steve, you taught me to do this) and have some questions I hope some of you can answer: 1: If you were placed at creation beyond lightspeed, could you continue being in an FTL state? 2: If you are beyond lightspeed, can you continue accelerating? 3: Can light be slowed down in a medium to less than 99.99c? 4: If you are beyond lightspeed in a dense medium, what happens? (it has happened) 5: If you are travelling FTL, can you ever slow down below c? Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 9 15:48 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2583" "Wed" "9" "July" "1997" "15:48:18" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "57" "starship-design: I have many questions..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA06610 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:48:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA06571 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [198.68.17.19]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA00761; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA06679; Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:48:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707092248.PAA06679@tzadkiel.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <33C41E9E.66B3@sunherald.infi.net> References: <33C41E9E.66B3@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.15p6 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 2582 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: kyle Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: I have many questions... Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:48:18 -0700 kyle writes: > Greetings, > > I am working on something and wish to get my underlying physics correct > (Steve, you taught me to do this) and have some questions I hope some of > you can answer: > > 1: If you were placed at creation beyond lightspeed, could you continue > being in an FTL state? > > 2: If you are beyond lightspeed, can you continue accelerating? > > 3: Can light be slowed down in a medium to less than 99.99c? > > 4: If you are beyond lightspeed in a dense medium, what happens? (it has > happened) > > 5: If you are travelling FTL, can you ever slow down below c? > > Kyle Mcallister >From what I've read on the topic: If you start out superluminal, you stay superluminal, just as if you start out subluminal, you have to stay subluminal. Analyzed simply by relativistic kinematics, a superluminal particle accelerates by _losing_ energy, and has to be raised to asymptotically infinite energy to slow down to c, the unreachable minimum speed for it. Even in a transparent medium, hotons travel at c between atoms, but the slight delay between their absorption and re-emission by atoms in the material reduces their average speed in the medium. A medium is transparent if it tends not to want to absorb photons of the energies to which it is transparent; those photons are only absorbed briefly but push electrons to unwanted energy levels that cause the photons to quickly get re-emitted with their original energies. Charged particles traveling faster than the average velocity of photons in a medium emit Cerenkov radiation in their interaction with charged particles in the medium. If you've seen photographs of the blue glow in water-cooled nuclear reactors, that glow is Cerenkov radiation from particles traveling faster than the average speed of photons in water. (The sci.physics FAQ explains why the glow is blue.) Presumably superluminal particles would also emit Cerenkov radiation in a vacuum, but since they would lose energy as a result this would make them go faster. Since the universe is not filled with a blue glow from a quantity of near-zero-energy nearly-infinitely-fast tachyons we might conclude that either a) tachyons don't exist or b) there's something wrong with this analysis. The quantum-mechanical treatment of tachyons in the sci.physics FAQ is somewhat more interesting. Either tachyons move faster than light, but can't ever be localized (that is, you can't measure them) or they can be localized but then move slower than light. Either way, their superluminal properties are inaccessible. From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 10 18:55 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1175" "Thu" "10" "July" "1997" "21:54:52" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "34" "Re: starship-design: I have many questions..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id SAA16155 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 18:55:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com (emout09.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.24]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA16138 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 18:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA00411; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 21:54:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970710215441_1446654963@emout09.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1174 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: stk@sunherald.infi.net, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: I have many questions... Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 21:54:52 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/10/97 5:22:27 PM, stk@sunherald.infi.net (kyle) wrote: >Greetings, > >I am working on something and wish to get my underlying physics correct >(Steve, you taught me to do this) and have some questions I hope some of >you can answer: > >1: If you were placed at creation beyond lightspeed, could you continue >being in an FTL state? > >2: If you are beyond lightspeed, can you continue accelerating? > >3: Can light be slowed down in a medium to less than 99.99c? > >4: If you are beyond lightspeed in a dense medium, what happens? (it has >happened) > >5: If you are travelling FTL, can you ever slow down below c? > >Kyle Mcallister Depends on whos theories you by, or how you got to hyper light. Tacyonic theiry suggests that in tacyon space (for want of a better word) everything is like here, all the normal laws work, but your going hyperlight. You don't notice it because your sublight in that universe, but FTL to us, and we seem FTL to you there. If you decelerate to a stop in that universe (land of imaginary numbers) you would be going infinate relative to us. Accelerate to lightspeed and you'll be at light speed to us also. Kelly From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 10 19:03 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4015" "Thu" "10" "July" "1997" "22:03:08" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "100" "Re: starship-design: Aliens, why haven't they contact us?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA18316 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 19:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout02.mail.aol.com (emout02.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.93]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA18306 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 19:03:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout02.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id WAA06807; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 22:03:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970710220306_881279481@emout02.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 4014 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Aliens, why haven't they contact us? Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 22:03:08 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/8/97 7:32:34 AM, TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) wrote: >Kelly, > >>>Why would the aliens not wear special suits that are near 100% bioshields? >> >>If anything leaks out. It sould stand out like a neon sign. (HEY! This >>species of microbe doesn't use our kind of DNA!!) > >If a few bacteria leak out, they may very well be killed before they can >replicate and mutate. >And if indeed aliens are in abundance, they may have infected Earth long ago. >Furthermore, there is speculation that microbes come to Earth by meteorites >and dirty snowballs every day. Why? If they were alien, the local life form would have no adaptations tuned for them. Usually that sort of thing leads to major pagues. As to the microbes from space, thats a very thinly defined theory. Besides it still gets back to no signs of alien organisms alive here now. >>>As many suggest, aliens might cause an unwanted psychological effect >>>(apathy, hysteria) in most cultures. A reasonable alien race would not just >>>make contact without thought. Therefore it is likely that they still hide. >> >>This ones kind of a bogus prejudice on 20th century types part. >> Historiocally human cultures routinely ran into alien non person cultures. >> Ok, most were just the next tribe over. But to them that was as shockingly >>alien as aliens would be to us. The tribes seldom wen't hysterical and >>colapsed at the site. If they were in conflict they fought. If not they >>tried to trade or ignored one another. > >You may have a point about older cultures. But I believe that for many today >the world view would change more than they could cope with. My best guess >is, that old civilisations believed in miracles, so a strange species wasn't >much of a shock. (I believe that several European explorers where seen as gods) >A reason to believe that mentality has changed too is that not so many >centuries ago, the fear for the unknown was really bad (witchhunt). I doubt aliens would change anything for people. Oh it would be an interesting spike in conversation (like the microbes from Mars) but it doesn't change anything fundamental. The bulk of folks expect their is life out their. Haviong it show up would be a shock, but not one that effects anything fundamental to us. Sort of like the moon landings. People thought that would change everything. It changed nearly nothing. >One may wonder why old civilisations never benefited from alien >intervention. Maybe they did, but where not interested in technological >progres. Or maybe they didn't because aliens may have little incentive to >help us out. How could they? They certainly were in no position to buy or use high tech. Certainly no reason to give it to us. >In one of our private discussions you also mentioned apathy as a result of >seeing that others are much more advanced and discovered long ago what you >only held possible in your dreams. > >Also for quite some time, sudden balance shifts in economical and military >power would have been rather critical. >This can't be bogus, otherwise I'd see little reason for certain programs to >be secret (stealth planes). They keep them secret so the other side doesn't have a chance to prepare to defend against them, or copy them. Niether a big concern for aliens. Also abos confrounted with culture vastly beyond theirs don't fold up and die. They just want in! >>Besides. We never worry much about droping in on aborigional cultures. > >The reason for us dropping in on aborigional cultures is usually for >resources. What happened to the aboriginals seemed to be less important with >the result that it disappeared rather fast. > >Aliens are likely to have little interest in resources on Earth, so >contacting us would likely only create problems. > >Tim We destroy or push aside abos for their land, but we drop in as anthropologists. Not to trash them. If Aliens came all this way, we'ld be the major area of interest on this rock. Kelly From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 10 19:04 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1522" "Thu" "10" "July" "1997" "22:04:06" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "35" "Re: starship-design: Telescopes the size of worlds?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA18522 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 19:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout11.mail.aol.com (emout11.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.26]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA18510 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 19:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout11.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id WAA24475; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 22:04:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970710220313_-626011911@emout11.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1521 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: stk@sunherald.infi.net, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Telescopes the size of worlds? Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 22:04:06 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/8/97 12:06:44 AM, stk@sunherald.infi.net (kyle) wrote: >Wait a minute! We're talking about telescopes the size of planets here. >Where are you gonna get that much money to build these? It WILL be more >expensive than a starship, because of the immense size, stabilization >systems, power systems, etc. This may not seem like a problem, but then >you have repairs when a cloud of debris comes careening through the >thing, which pretty much makes useless that telescope. > >Another problem: these things will get so big, they'll warp under their >own weight. If anything hits this thing, it will become destabilized, >and when you try to thrust it back to stability the thing will probably >buckle from stress. If you really want to build these (I don't recommend >it), at least build them in an array, with many smaller scopes. > >These ideas are great to wonder about, but are impractical: for the same >price you can go there. Why then do you spend $100B+ on limited scanning >scopes, when you can go? I ask you: how do you get an electron >micrograph of bacteria with a telescope? theoretically you could, but it >would be so massive... > >And you say my ideas are far-out?? Maybe my ideas defy current >understanding, but they are practical. > >Kyle Mcallister Its not going to be a solid scope! Its just a lose formation of 1-2 meter telescopes and a big computer to integrate the image data into a virtual scope. On the sheilf technology. But never used on this scale before. Kelly From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 10 19:07 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["812" "Thu" "10" "July" "1997" "22:06:56" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "23" "Re: starship-design: Re: Telescopes in Orbit" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA18926 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 19:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com (emout07.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.22]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA18917 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 19:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id WAA21733; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 22:06:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970710220309_390049994@emout07.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 811 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: lparker@cacaphony.net, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Telescopes in Orbit Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 22:06:56 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/7/97 11:23:40 PM, lparker@cacaphony.net (L. Parker) wrote: >I have been thinking about this telescope idea, apertures and resolving >power. The recent launch of HALCA in February made me wonder. HALCA works >in concert with ground-based telescopes, allowing astronomers to simulate >a dish with a diameter as large as 28,000 kilometers and a resolving >power-the ability to detect fine details-more than 100 times higher than >that of the Hubble Space Telescope. Of course it is limited by the radius >of its orbit plus or minus one earth diameter. > >So the question is: what exactly is the distance between the leading >LaGrange point and the trailing LaGrange point? It would be awfully >convenient if it was 300,000 km.... > >Lee Parker Closer to 500,000 km I think. Kelly From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 10 19:08 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["812" "Thu" "10" "July" "1997" "22:08:06" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "23" "Re: starship-design: Re: Telescopes in Orbit" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA19101 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 19:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout28.mail.aol.com (emout28.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.133]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA19086 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 19:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout28.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id WAA26386; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 22:08:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970710220309_390049994@emout07.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 811 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: lparker@cacaphony.net, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Telescopes in Orbit Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 22:08:06 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/7/97 11:23:40 PM, lparker@cacaphony.net (L. Parker) wrote: >I have been thinking about this telescope idea, apertures and resolving >power. The recent launch of HALCA in February made me wonder. HALCA works >in concert with ground-based telescopes, allowing astronomers to simulate >a dish with a diameter as large as 28,000 kilometers and a resolving >power-the ability to detect fine details-more than 100 times higher than >that of the Hubble Space Telescope. Of course it is limited by the radius >of its orbit plus or minus one earth diameter. > >So the question is: what exactly is the distance between the leading >LaGrange point and the trailing LaGrange point? It would be awfully >convenient if it was 300,000 km.... > >Lee Parker Closer to 500,000 km I think. Kelly From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 10 20:15 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["348" "Thu" "10" "July" "1997" "21:15:35" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "12" "Re: starship-design: Telescopes the size of worlds?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA05757 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 20:15:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA05745 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 20:15:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-93.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-93.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.93]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA22432; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 23:15:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33C5B366.4312@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <970710220313_-626011911@emout11.mail.aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 347 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: KellySt@aol.com CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Telescopes the size of worlds? Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 21:15:35 -0700 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > > Its not going to be a solid scope! Its just a lose formation of 1-2 meter > telescopes and a big computer to integrate the image data into a virtual > scope. On the sheilf technology. But never used on this scale before. > Ah, I see now. An array. I'll support that, since its perfectly possible. Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 11 00:18 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["662" "Fri" "11" "July" "1997" "00:18:08" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "19" "Re: starship-design: Re: Telescopes in Orbit" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id AAA21918 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 11 Jul 1997 00:18:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA21898 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 1997 00:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (cisco-ts8-line6.uoregon.edu [128.223.150.70]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA09442 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 1997 00:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) id AAA12619; Fri, 11 Jul 1997 00:18:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707110718.AAA12619@tzadkiel.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <970710220309_390049994@emout07.mail.aol.com> References: <970710220309_390049994@emout07.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.15p6 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 661 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Telescopes in Orbit Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 00:18:08 -0700 KellySt@aol.com writes: > > In a message dated 7/7/97 11:23:40 PM, lparker@cacaphony.net (L. Parker) > wrote: > > >So the question is: what exactly is the distance between the leading > >LaGrange point and the trailing LaGrange point? It would be awfully > >convenient if it was 300,000 km.... > > > >Lee Parker > > Closer to 500,000 km I think. The L4 and L5 points are 60 degrees ahead of and behind the Moon in its orbit; the points form equilateral triangles with the Moon and Earth. Since the Moon's orbital radius is about 400,000 km, the distance between the L4 and L5 points would be about sqrt(3)/2 * 800,000 or some 700,000 km apart. From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 11 02:59 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["740" "Fri" "11" "July" "1997" "11:56:26" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "23" "starship-design: Re: Truely adventurous" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id CAA00717 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 11 Jul 1997 02:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA00699 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 1997 02:59:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-021.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wmcTx-000EsbC; Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:59:21 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 739 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Truely adventurous Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:56:26 +0100 Hello Antonio, >Hello Timothy, Once again, please forgive me my little rant. I shall >edeavor to manifest considerably more judicious serenity henceforth >(cross my heart... :). Thank you for your detailed background, it makes it easier to better understand the ideas behind letters. >>It is not directly "un-adventurous" what I meant, >>it is more "controlled adventure". > >I am sure we agree on that one. As with many subjective words, they can be used with a range of meanings. It may well be that I'm often a bit of from the most common meaning, but with a few extra words, things will usually clear up. I think I've been more individual during my younger years and therefore was tempted less to conform to standards. Timothy From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 11 05:43 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4074" "Fri" "11" "July" "1997" "14:40:30" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "93" "starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id FAA19956 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 11 Jul 1997 05:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id FAA19943 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 1997 05:43:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-017.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wmf2j-000EzSC; Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:43:25 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 4073 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us? Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:40:30 +0100 Kelly, >>If a few bacteria leak out, they may very well be killed before they can >>replicate and mutate. >>And if indeed aliens are in abundance, they may have infected Earth long >>ago. >>Furthermore, there is speculation that microbes come to Earth by meteorites >>and dirty snowballs every day. > >Why? If they were alien, the local life form would have no adaptations tuned >for them. Usually that sort of thing leads to major pagues. Immune systems usually see almost every non-self organism as dangerous. I wouldn't think that it doesn't matter much whether the non-self organism comes from space or Earth. In some cases the body even starts killing something of itself, this is called an auto-immune disease. >As to the microbes from space, thats a very thinly defined theory. Besides >it still gets back to no signs of alien organisms alive here now. The latter is exactly the point I wanted to make. No apparent signs, so whatever comes down, doesn't seem to spread. >>You may have a point about older cultures. But I believe that for many today >>the world view would change more than they could cope with. My best guess >>is, that old civilisations believed in miracles, so a strange species wasn't >>much of a shock. (I believe that several European explorers where seen as >>gods) >>A reason to believe that mentality has changed too is that not so many >>centuries ago, the fear for the unknown was really bad (witchhunt). > >I doubt aliens would change anything for people. Oh it would be an >interesting spike in conversation (like the microbes from Mars) but it >doesn't change anything fundamental. The bulk of folks expect their is life >out their. Haviong it show up would be a shock, but not one that effects >anything fundamental to us. Expecting it, has shown to be completely different from knowing it. Everyone knows that it is quite likely that something terrible can be expected to happen to them during their lifetime. Yet many get badly hurt psychologically when it actually happens. Primordial microbes from Mars hardly compare to beings that have technology that looks like magic. >Sort of like the moon landings. People thought that would change everything. >It changed nearly nothing. Hmm, I think in this case the reverse would have been true. If it had failed, it would have changed a lot. It might have been a real big disappointment with bad results for the space-programme. >>Also for quite some time, sudden balance shifts in economical and military >>power would have been rather critical. >>This can't be bogus, otherwise I'd see little reason for certain programs to >>be secret (stealth planes). > >They keep them secret so the other side doesn't have a chance to prepare to >defend against them, or copy them. Niether a big concern for aliens. I didn't mean we were a threath to the aliens. If they start spreading technology, some nations may use it in a different way than intended, which may change world power in sudden ways. (Eg. Give Saddam Hoessein a ZPE bomb, which he nicely puts somewhere in New York.) >Also abos confrounted with culture vastly beyond theirs don't fold up and >die. They just want in! Luckely they were only with few. Imagine 5 billion people knocking on your door for the latest technology and information. Scary! >>>Besides. We never worry much about droping in on aborigional cultures. >> >>The reason for us dropping in on aborigional cultures is usually for >>resources. What happened to the aboriginals seemed to be less important with >>the result that it disappeared rather fast. >> >>Aliens are likely to have little interest in resources on Earth, so >>contacting us would likely only create problems. > >We destroy or push aside abos for their land, but we drop in as >anthropologists. Not to trash them. > >If Aliens came all this way, we'ld be the major area of interest on this >rock. True, but dropping in as anthropologists would certainly destroy what they where looking for. Only if they are psychologists, they would enjoy playing games with us. Timothy From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 11 12:09 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2813" "Fri" "11" "July" "1997" "16:04:55" "-0300" "Antonio C T Rocha" "arocha@bsb.nutecnet.com.br" nil "51" "Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id MAA06518 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:09:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from srv1-bsb.bsb.nutecnet.com.br (srv1-bsb.bsb.nutecnet.com.br [200.252.253.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA06430 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:09:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Metacor.bsb.nutecnet.com.br (dl0106-bsb.bsb.nutecnet.com.br [200.252.253.106]) by srv1-bsb.bsb.nutecnet.com.br (8.8.5/SCA-6.6) with ESMTP id TAA27308 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 1997 19:04:19 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33C683D6.3794FDCF@bsb.nutecnet.com.br> Organization: is unrealistic X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Antonio C T Rocha Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 2812 From: Antonio C T Rocha Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us? Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 16:04:55 -0300 Hello, This discussion certainly is broad in scope. A few thoughts that ocurred regarding it are (if I may): 1. If we have been exposed to (and maybe originated from) space-born biological material, then local life is probably reasonably well suited to deal with any life originating within "average" distance. Maybe it even is "similar" to it. 2. Less-advanced Aliens will probably be from close by, allowing us a reasonable chance at biological self-defence. Advanced aliens shall probably have advanced microbots (or whatever) to "secure the perimeter" - whatever that might mean to them. Maybe they would not want to contaminate local life with their own - and have the technology and will to do it. 3. Alien minds might work in Alien ways - based on shockingly different premises or rules. Their logic might not be "accessible" to us. It might not make sense. It is hoping a lot to expect them to think like us, with our emotional, dichotomic, bilaterally symmetric, golden-mean tropic logic. All premises from 2. onwards might be completely off the mark. On the other hand, similar life might lead to similar logic in similar beings. In that case, there could be a chance for it to be dichotomic, bilaterally or spherically symmetrical, maybe emotional, doubtfully golden-mean or fibonacci-series susceptible. 3a. On life: microbes have been found on earth that thrive in anoxic, acid-rich hundreds-degree Celsius hot environments. Ditto for orgs living near sulfur-rich thermal vents on the ocean floor. Coupled with the space-born life hypothesis, this suggests that life is probable on any nearby planet without too much radiation and sufficient heat (20-700 degrees Celsius). Venus and the gas giants immediately come to mind. Furthermore, if you accept that similar structure leads to similar logic, it suggests that alien life might be "comprehensible", even if only in the most abstract sense. 4. 5 billion people is a lot to us, but could be a hamlet to a gregarious space-faring race. Again, aliens are alien. They might not be composed of individuals as we understand the term. 5. *Very* advanced technology might not be limited to our little bubble of space-time or suffer its ...er... limitations. But there are always the less-technologically advanced space-farers - no reason why they couldn't be messy, noisy housekeepers (just like we are and shall probably ever be). 6. In our pattern of society, it is usually adventurers, traders, colonizers, castaways and fugitives who first contact new cultures. The priests and scientists usually follow long after. By then, the damage has already been done. The abos have to face the cultural shock and meet the visitors new demands as best they can. _If_ the aliens are like us, that's the way it might go. Otherwise, who can tell? Antonio From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 11 12:09 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1456" "Fri" "11" "July" "1997" "10:54:08" "-0300" "Antonio C T Rocha" "arocha@bsb.nutecnet.com.br" nil "55" "Re: starship-design: I have many questions..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id MAA06521 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:09:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from srv1-bsb.bsb.nutecnet.com.br (srv1-bsb.bsb.nutecnet.com.br [200.252.253.1]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA06475 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Metacor.bsb.nutecnet.com.br (dl0106-bsb.bsb.nutecnet.com.br [200.252.253.106]) by srv1-bsb.bsb.nutecnet.com.br (8.8.5/SCA-6.6) with ESMTP id TAA27281 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 1997 19:04:11 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33C63AFF.48594BC5@bsb.nutecnet.com.br> Organization: is unrealistic X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <970710215441_1446654963@emout09.mail.aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Antonio C T Rocha Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 1455 From: Antonio C T Rocha Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: I have many questions... Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 10:54:08 -0300 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/10/97 5:22:27 PM, stk@sunherald.infi.net (kyle) > wrote: > > >Greetings, > > > >I am working on something and wish to get my underlying physics > correct > >(Steve, you taught me to do this) and have some questions I hope some > of > >you can answer: > > > >1: If you were placed at creation beyond lightspeed, could you > continue > >being in an FTL state? > > > >2: If you are beyond lightspeed, can you continue accelerating? > > > >3: Can light be slowed down in a medium to less than 99.99c? > > > >4: If you are beyond lightspeed in a dense medium, what happens? (it > has > >happened) > > > >5: If you are travelling FTL, can you ever slow down below c? > > > >Kyle Mcallister > > Depends on whos theories you by, or how you got to hyper light. > Tacyonic > theiry suggests that in tacyon space (for want of a better word) > everything > is like here, all the normal laws work, but your going hyperlight. > You don't > notice it because your sublight in that universe, but FTL to us, and > we seem > FTL to you there. If you decelerate to a stop in that universe (land > of > imaginary numbers) you would be going infinate relative to us. > Accelerate to > lightspeed and you'll be at light speed to us also. > > Kelly Time would be negative over there, relative to us - and vice-versa -, implying that their universe looks "normal" to them and we look supraluminal. And vice-versa. Antonio From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 12 19:28 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["885" "Sat" "12" "July" "1997" "20:28:28" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "29" "starship-design: Black Holes, and everything else" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA01054 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 19:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA01045 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 19:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-111.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-111.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.111]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA25186; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 22:28:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33C84B5B.7F60@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 884 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: wharton@physics.ucla.edu CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Black Holes, and everything else Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 20:28:28 -0700 Hello Ken Can black holes distort space severely? If so, I have a theory to explain the gravitation problem you mentioned. To all (including Ken): Some questions: If you can exceed C, if there was some other environment in which C was faster than 300,000 m/sec, could you legally exceed that region's lightspeed if you were travelling faster than that limit? If so, I've thought of something... What happens in a casimir cavity exactly? What happens when a casimir generator is built in the shape of a sphere, to the interior of the sphere? (charged spheres between on another) Why is light sped above C in a casimir cavity? Is it really FTL, or just C increased? I know this is off the subject, but: A final thought: We have found no magnetic monopoles as of yet. I know why. If you think about it, you'll see its very simple. Remember attraction/repulsion. Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Sun Jul 13 04:44 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["115" "Sun" "13" "July" "1997" "13:41:25" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "9" "" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id EAA12632 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 04:44:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id EAA12623 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 04:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-006.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wnN4i-000FfeC; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:44:24 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 114 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:41:25 +0100 Kyle, Are you systematically asking everyone questions about exotic phenomena? What are you up to? ;) Timothy From owner-starship-design Sun Jul 13 11:13 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["362" "Sun" "13" "July" "1997" "12:13:36" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "18" "starship-design: Re: " "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA10894 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 11:13:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA10856 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 11:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-98.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-98.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.98]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA06215; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 14:13:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33C928E0.1AA@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 361 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, Timothy van der Linden Subject: starship-design: Re: Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:13:36 -0700 Timothy van der Linden wrote: > > Kyle, > > Are you systematically asking everyone questions about exotic phenomena? I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean. > > What are you up to? ;) Very many things. Theoretical, most of it; If sucessful, it could bring new propulsion ideas to SSD. Have I done something wrong? I'm just curious. Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Sun Jul 13 15:33 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["526" "Mon" "14" "July" "1997" "00:30:41" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "20" "starship-design: Curious" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA10184 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 15:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA10150 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 15:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-012.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wnXD2-000EsJC; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 00:33:40 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 525 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Curious Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 00:30:41 +0100 Kyle, >>Are you systematically asking everyone questions about exotic phenomena? > >I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean. Well, you first asked Steve about FTL, then me about negative gravity, and now Ken about space distortion. >>What are you up to? ;) > >Very many things. Theoretical, most of it; If sucessful, it could bring >new propulsion ideas to SSD. Have I done something wrong? No, nothing wrong, I'm just curious. And now after you wondering of doing something wrong, I'm even more curious :) Timothy From owner-starship-design Sun Jul 13 16:01 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1009" "Sun" "13" "July" "1997" "17:00:58" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "26" "Re: starship-design: Curious" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id QAA16551 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 16:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA16520 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 16:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-102.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-102.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.102]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA23719; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 19:01:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33C96C39.2C54@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 1008 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: Timothy van der Linden CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Curious Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 17:00:58 -0700 Timothy van der Linden wrote: > > > Well, you first asked Steve about FTL, then me about negative gravity, and > now Ken about space distortion. I'm simply trying to get the opinions/theories of each person, and then compare ideas. I have asked many others about such things, also. > > >>What are you up to? ;) > > > >Very many things. Theoretical, most of it; If sucessful, it could bring > >new propulsion ideas to SSD. Have I done something wrong? > > No, nothing wrong, I'm just curious. > And now after you wondering of doing something wrong, I'm even more curious :) I thought maybe SSD was getting tired of my asking questions. In my message "black holes, and everything else", I wrote: "To All:", which indicated a general query to all SSD members. If I write "to (someone):", it is intended mainly for that person, but if someone else has information on that subject, they are welcome to share it. When I ask only one person, I send private E-mail. Sorry about the confusion. Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Sun Jul 13 20:17 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["594" "Sun" "13" "July" "1997" "21:16:28" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "19" "starship-design: Alcubierre paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA17098 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 20:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA17078 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 20:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-102.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-78.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.78]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA29693; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 23:16:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33C9A81B.3702@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 593 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: stevev@efn.org CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Alcubierre paper Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 21:16:28 -0700 Steve: The postscript file I mentioned is the Alcubierre FTL paper. I remember you said you'd like to see it, so I E-mailed you. Its at: http://www.astro.cf.ac.uk/groups/relativity/papers/abstracts/miguel94a/miguel94a.ps.gz I don't know what the .gz means, but it works as a PostScript file on my viewer. There's also a .GIF image to go with it, but their copy doesn't work, so if you'd like it, I'll send it. I'm sending this CC to SSD in case anyone else wants to read the paper. If you don't have PostScript capability, I'll tell you where you can find it. (Its free) Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Sun Jul 13 20:36 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["742" "Sun" "13" "July" "1997" "21:36:15" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "24" "starship-design: Alcubierre paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA22299 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 20:36:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA22211 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 20:36:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-91.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-91.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.91]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA17348; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 23:36:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33C9ACBE.2A01@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <33C9A81B.3702@sunherald.infi.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 741 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: stevev@efn.org, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Alcubierre paper Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 21:36:15 -0700 Steve: The postscript file I mentioned is the Alcubierre FTL paper. I remember you said you'd like to see it, so I E-mailed you. Its at: http://www.astro.cf.ac.uk/groups/relativity/papers/abstracts/miguel94a/miguel94a.ps.gz I don't know what the .gz means, but it works as a PostScript file on my viewer. There's also a .GIF image to go with it, but their copy doesn't work, so if you'd like it, I'll send it. Oops! My mistake: the image is .ps NOT .gif. It can be found at: http://www.astro.cf.ac.uk/groups/relativity/papers/abstracts/miguel94a/fig1.ps I'm sending this CC to SSD in case anyone else wants to read the paper. If you don't have PostScript capability, I'll tell you where you can find it. (Its free) Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 14 02:12 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["548" "Mon" "14" "July" "1997" "11:09:29" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "20" "starship-design: Re: Alcubierre paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id CAA27287 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 02:12:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA27267 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 02:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-014.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wnhBF-000GdvC; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:12:29 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 547 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Alcubierre paper Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:09:29 +0100 To Kyle et all, >The postscript file I mentioned is the Alcubierre FTL paper. I remember >you said you'd like to see it, so I E-mailed you. > >Its at: > >http://www.astro.cf.ac.uk/groups/relativity/papers/abstracts/miguel94a/migu el94a.ps.gz > >I don't know what the .gz means, but it works as a PostScript file on my >viewer. There's also a .GIF image to go with it, but their copy doesn't >work, so if you'd like it, I'll send it. Their Postscript image works, but they forgot to add .gz to the filename. (That is, it is GNUzipped.) Timothy From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 14 02:12 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2368" "Mon" "14" "July" "1997" "11:09:27" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "53" "starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id CAA27379 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 02:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA27369 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 02:12:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-014.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wnhBC-000GdwC; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:12:26 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 2367 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us? Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:09:27 +0100 Antonio wrote, >1. If we have been exposed to (and maybe originated from) space-born >biological material, then local life is probably reasonably well suited >to deal with any life originating within "average" distance. Maybe it >even is "similar" to it. That was exactly my (unwritten) thought when I wrote about "dirty snowballs" and alike. >2. Less-advanced Aliens will probably be from close by, allowing us a >reasonable chance at biological self-defence. Advanced aliens shall >probably have advanced microbots (or whatever) to "secure the perimeter" Interesting idea: "securing their perimeter" > 3a. On life: microbes have been found on earth that thrive in >anoxic, acid-rich hundreds-degree Celsius hot environments. Ditto for >orgs living near sulfur-rich thermal vents on the ocean floor. Coupled >with the space-born life hypothesis, this suggests that life is probable >on any nearby planet without too much radiation and sufficient heat >(20-700 degrees Celsius). Venus and the gas giants immediately come to >mind. I resently heard that gassious planets would provide a too unstable environment for primeordial life (no evidence given of course). Usually land is considered already too unstable for live to originate. So just for that matter Venus is much less likely to have life. >4. 5 billion people is a lot to us, but could be a hamlet to a >gregarious space-faring race. Again, aliens are alien. They might not be >composed of individuals as we understand the term. True, if they had nanobots to do the work for them, it would matter little. But of course providing the technology is not the only thing. Teaching responsibility is another usually lengthy process. >6. In our pattern of society, it is usually adventurers, traders, >colonizers, castaways and fugitives who first contact new cultures. The >priests and scientists usually follow long after. By then, the damage >has already been done. The abos have to face the cultural shock and meet >the visitors new demands as best they can. _If_ the aliens are like us, >that's the way it might go. Otherwise, who can tell? Hmmm, so far space has only been visited by scientists. Maybe the analogy isn't as simple. And once again, why take the risk to be disected for making contact with Earthlings while you have more luxury than Earth people will have for centuries. Timothy From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 14 08:12 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["321" "Mon" "14" "July" "1997" "09:12:20" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "11" "starship-design: Aliens" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA05815 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 08:12:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA05797 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 08:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-98.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-98.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.98]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA24357 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:12:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33CA4FE3.F5@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 320 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Aliens Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:12:20 -0700 Greetings: I read about the thought of life on a gas planet. I think its possible, but wonder (I know this will sound dumb): what would they build spaceships out of? Its a logical question. Kyle Mcallister P.S.: Maybe large moons (mars-or earth-sized) with atmospheres could support life around a close-in gas giant. From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 14 11:22 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1788" "Mon" "14" "July" "1997" "14:23:33" "-0400" "Bakelaar" "bakelaar@injersey.com" nil "45" "starship-design: antimatter fountain: popsci article" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA22599 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nj5.injersey.com (root@nj5.injersey.com [206.139.48.252]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA22578 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pbakelaar.exit109.com (ppp142-tmrv.injersey.com [206.139.59.142]) by nj5.injersey.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA17682 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:23:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707141823.OAA17682@nj5.injersey.com> X-Sender: bakelaar@injersey.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Bakelaar Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1787 From: Bakelaar Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: antimatter fountain: popsci article Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:23:33 -0400 (EDT) article: it sounds like science fiction: a fountain of antmatter spewing from the center of our galaxy. but that is just what astronomers claim they have discovered, using nasa's compton gamma ray observatory satellite. launched into eart orbit six years ago, the observatory monitors the heavens for emissions of gamma rays. in april, a research team led by astronomers at northwestern univ. and the naval research lab. in washington announced that the observatory had foudn gamma rays emanating from a fountain- shaped region that appears to originate at the milky way's center. the high energy gammy-ray emissions were measured at 511,000 electron volts - precisely the energy produced when positrons (the antiparticles of electrons) are annihilated by collisions with normal matter. "its an unmistakable signature of the annihilation" says charles dermer, a theorist at the navy lab who is helping to interpret the findings. what could be generating the positrons? on earth, positrons are produced by the decay of certain radioactive isotopes but are quickly destroyed when they collide. dermer and colleague jeff skibo point out that positrons are also produced by supernovas, explosions of massive stars. successions of supernovas at the milky way's center could have sent a fountain of hot gases, mixed with positrons, shooting high above the galactic plane. mingling with the hot gad would destroy the positrons and produce the observed gamma rays, astronomers say. however, other scientists have proposed a different source for the positrons: one or more black holes believed to exist at the galaxy's center. by andrew chaikin so guys, what do you think of this? id like to hear what you think... if its true or not, if they got anything wrong... etc etc. ben From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 14 19:26 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["80" "Mon" "14" "July" "1997" "20:26:44" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "6" "starship-design: I know this is off the subject but..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA01261 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 19:26:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA01246 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 19:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-98.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-85.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.85]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA24854 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 22:26:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33CAEDF3.276E@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 79 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: I know this is off the subject but... Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:26:44 -0700 Greetings: Has anyone actually built a magnetic monopole? (I'm serious) Kyle From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 14 20:14 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["405" "Mon" "14" "July" "1997" "20:15:00" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "14" "starship-design: I know this is off the subject but..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA12943 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:14:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA12929 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (cisco-ts7-line13.uoregon.edu [128.223.150.60]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA03364; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:13:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA25872; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:15:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707150315.UAA25872@tzadkiel.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <33CAEDF3.276E@sunherald.infi.net> References: <33CAEDF3.276E@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.15p6 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 404 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: kyle Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: I know this is off the subject but... Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:15:00 -0700 kyle writes: > Greetings: > > Has anyone actually built a magnetic monopole? (I'm serious) > > Kyle As far as I remember from my physics classes, you can't really build them, but there could be some left over from the Big Bang (big maybe). If they exist, then they'd be pretty easy to detect (assuming one passed through an appropriate detector) and would have a variety of useful applications. From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 14 20:33 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3616" "Mon" "14" "July" "1997" "23:33:08" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "77" "Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA17961 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:33:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout18.mail.aol.com (emout18.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.44]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA17951 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout18.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id XAA12370; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:33:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970714233307_-1393272598@emout18.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 3615 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: arocha@bsb.nutecnet.com.br, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us? Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:33:08 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/11/97 5:36:13 PM, arocha@bsb.nutecnet.com.br (Antonio C T Rocha) wrote: >Hello, >This discussion certainly is broad in scope. A few thoughts that ocurred >regarding it are (if I may): >1. If we have been exposed to (and maybe originated from) space-born >biological material, then local life is probably reasonably well suited >to deal with any life originating within "average" distance. Maybe it >even is "similar" to it. How good are we at dealing with deseases from other continents, even africa (where we evolved)? The Indians were whiped out by Euro deseases. >2. Less-advanced Aliens will probably be from close by, allowing us a >reasonable chance at biological self-defence. Advanced aliens shall >probably have advanced microbots (or whatever) to "secure the perimeter" >- whatever that might mean to them. Maybe they would not want to >contaminate local life with their own - and have the technology and will >to do it. Maybe no one goes near other biosphere until the locals are high enough tech to talk to and verify the effective decontamination proceedures? >3. Alien minds might work in Alien ways - based on shockingly different >premises or rules. Their logic might not be "accessible" to us. It might >not make sense. It is hoping a lot to expect them to think like us, with >our emotional, dichotomic, bilaterally symmetric, golden-mean tropic >logic. All premises from 2. onwards might be completely off the mark. On >the other hand, similar life might lead to similar logic in similar >beings. In that case, there could be a chance for it to be dichotomic, >bilaterally or spherically symmetrical, maybe emotional, doubtfully >golden-mean or fibonacci-series susceptible. Probably we'ld have a reasonable easy time talking about science or the universe, since its an external we both need to adapt to. But internal emotional/values issues could be mind boggling. > 3a. On life: microbes have been found on earth that thrive in >anoxic, acid-rich hundreds-degree Celsius hot environments. Ditto for >orgs living near sulfur-rich thermal vents on the ocean floor. Coupled >with the space-born life hypothesis, this suggests that life is probable >on any nearby planet without too much radiation and sufficient heat >(20-700 degrees Celsius). Venus and the gas giants immediately come to >mind. Furthermore, if you accept that similar structure leads to similar >logic, it suggests that alien life might be "comprehensible", even if >only in the most abstract sense. >4. 5 billion people is a lot to us, but could be a hamlet to a >gregarious space-faring race. Again, aliens are alien. They might not be >composed of individuals as we understand the term. >5. *Very* advanced technology might not be limited to our little bubble >of space-time or suffer its ...er... limitations. But there are always >the less-technologically advanced space-farers - no reason why they >couldn't be messy, noisy housekeepers (just like we are and shall >probably ever be). Really. "Hi! Sorry about the moon. Little trouble with the hyperdrive. But the debris field should be much easier to mine!" ;) >6. In our pattern of society, it is usually adventurers, traders, >colonizers, castaways and fugitives who first contact new cultures. The >priests and scientists usually follow long after. By then, the damage >has already been done. The abos have to face the cultural shock and meet >the visitors new demands as best they can. _If_ the aliens are like us, >that's the way it might go. Otherwise, who can tell? > >Antonio So many ideas, so little data. :( Kelly From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 14 20:37 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5413" "Mon" "14" "July" "1997" "23:36:41" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "138" "Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA18612 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout16.mail.aol.com (emout16.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.42]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA18598 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:37:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout16.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id XAA27878; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:36:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970714233302_390568607@emout16.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 5412 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us? Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:36:41 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/11/97 10:52:29 AM, TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) wrote: >Kelly, > >>>If a few bacteria leak out, they may very well be killed before they can >>>replicate and mutate. >>>And if indeed aliens are in abundance, they may have infected Earth long >>>ago. >>>Furthermore, there is speculation that microbes come to Earth by meteorites >>>and dirty snowballs every day. >> >>Why? If they were alien, the local life form would have no adaptations tuned >>for them. Usually that sort of thing leads to major pagues. > >Immune systems usually see almost every non-self organism as dangerous. I >wouldn't think that it doesn't matter much whether the non-self organism >comes from space or Earth. >In some cases the body even starts killing something of itself, this is >called an auto-immune disease. Immune systems arn't that good at detecting, much less combating, 'any' non-self organism. They are best at detecting and defeating things that the organism routinly is attacked by. Alien micro life would not be something were 'tuned' to fight or look for. >>As to the microbes from space, thats a very thinly defined theory. Besides >>it still gets back to no signs of alien organisms alive here now. > >The latter is exactly the point I wanted to make. No apparent signs, so >whatever comes down, doesn't seem to spread. Or never came here, or whiped out an area to quickly to sustain itself. >>>You may have a point about older cultures. But I believe that for many today >>>the world view would change more than they could cope with. My best guess >>>is, that old civilisations believed in miracles, so a strange species wasn't >>>much of a shock. (I believe that several European explorers where seen as >>>gods) >>>A reason to believe that mentality has changed too is that not so many >>>centuries ago, the fear for the unknown was really bad (witchhunt). >> >>I doubt aliens would change anything for people. Oh it would be an >>interesting spike in conversation (like the microbes from Mars) but it >>doesn't change anything fundamental. The bulk of folks expect their is life >>out their. Haviong it show up would be a shock, but not one that effects >>anything fundamental to us. > >Expecting it, has shown to be completely different from knowing it. >Everyone knows that it is quite likely that something terrible can be >expected to happen to them during their lifetime. Yet many get badly hurt >psychologically when it actually happens. >Primordial microbes from Mars hardly compare to beings that have technology >that looks like magic. Still its unlikely to make us all run home and hide under the bed. It never did before when we encountered alien (foreign) cultures with magical technologies and alien forms. I can't see we'ld be that much less able to handel the same thing now or in the future? >>Sort of like the moon landings. People thought that would change everything. >>It changed nearly nothing. > >Hmm, I think in this case the reverse would have been true. If it had >failed, it would have changed a lot. It might have been a real big >disappointment with bad results for the space-programme. If it failed the real significant impact would have been international relations and soviet vs U.S. world power. But to people involved or interested in the space program, it was a basic assumption that once the door was opened we'ld stream out onto the new frounteir. Didn't happen. >>>Also for quite some time, sudden balance shifts in economical and military >>>power would have been rather critical. >>>This can't be bogus, otherwise I'd see little reason for certain programs to >>>be secret (stealth planes). >> >>They keep them secret so the other side doesn't have a chance to prepare to >>defend against them, or copy them. Niether a big concern for aliens. > >I didn't mean we were a threath to the aliens. If they start spreading >technology, some nations may use it in a different way than intended, which >may change world power in sudden ways. (Eg. Give Saddam Hoessein a ZPE bomb, >which he nicely puts somewhere in New York.) My point was the aliens wouldn't care about those effects. If we can't play nice with the new toys, thats our problem. >>Also abos confrounted with culture vastly beyond theirs don't fold up and >>die. They just want in! > >Luckely they were only with few. Imagine 5 billion people knocking on your >door for the latest technology and information. Scary! Send them the info via E-mail. ;) Besides to a galactic civilization, 5 billion is a few. >>>>Besides. We never worry much about droping in on aborigional cultures. >>> >>>The reason for us dropping in on aborigional cultures is usually for >>>resources. What happened to the aboriginals seemed to be less important with >>>the result that it disappeared rather fast. >>> >>>Aliens are likely to have little interest in resources on Earth, so >>>contacting us would likely only create problems. >> >>We destroy or push aside abos for their land, but we drop in as >>anthropologists. Not to trash them. >> >>If Aliens came all this way, we'ld be the major area of interest on this >>rock. > >True, but dropping in as anthropologists would certainly destroy what they >where looking for. Only if they are psychologists, they would enjoy playing >games with us. > >Timothy Anthropologists would tend to disagree. Kelly From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 14 20:53 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["261" "Mon" "14" "July" "1997" "21:53:17" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "10" "starship-design: Magnetic Monopoles?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA22379 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA22355 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-98.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-91.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.91]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA26586 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:53:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33CB023D.5B7C@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 260 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Magnetic Monopoles? Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 21:53:17 -0700 In Addition to my last message: I have constructed a device that (depending on the polarity) puts out ONLY north or south polarity, but not both. Interested? Could be VERY useful. Kyle Mcallister P.S.: I am as serious as I have ever been in my entire life. From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 14 20:57 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["398" "Mon" "14" "July" "1997" "20:57:59" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "15" "starship-design: Magnetic Monopoles?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA23952 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:57:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA23940 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:57:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (cisco-ts7-line13.uoregon.edu [128.223.150.60]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA11851; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:56:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA26111; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:57:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707150357.UAA26111@tzadkiel.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <33CB023D.5B7C@sunherald.infi.net> References: <33CB023D.5B7C@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.15p6 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 397 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: kyle Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Magnetic Monopoles? Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:57:59 -0700 kyle writes: > In Addition to my last message: > > I have constructed a device that (depending on the polarity) puts out > ONLY north or south polarity, but not both. Interested? Could be VERY > useful. > > Kyle Mcallister > > P.S.: I am as serious as I have ever been in my entire life. You should demo it to some physicists. I'm sure they'd be interested. Especially if it works. From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 14 21:15 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["397" "Mon" "14" "July" "1997" "22:15:31" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "12" "Re: starship-design: Magnetic Monopoles?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA27862 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 21:15:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA27848 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 21:15:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-98.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-110.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.110]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA18157; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 00:15:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33CB0773.5E85@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <33CB023D.5B7C@sunherald.infi.net> <199707150357.UAA26111@tzadkiel.efn.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 396 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, Steve VanDevender Subject: Re: starship-design: Magnetic Monopoles? Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 22:15:31 -0700 Steve VanDevender wrote: > > You should demo it to some physicists. I'm sure they'd be interested. > Especially if it works. What should I do, take it to some physists near me, and demonstrate it? What kind of physicist should I take it to? More than one? Should I dismantle it to show them how it works internally? Sorry about the questions, but I haven't done something like this yet. Kyle From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 15 08:50 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["509" "Tue" "15" "July" "1997" "16:25:58" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" "" "20" "starship-design: Re: I know this is off the subject but..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA19892 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:49:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA19868 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:49:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-027.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wo8b1-000FPzC; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:28:55 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 508 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: I know this is off the subject but... Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:25:58 +0100 Kyle asked: >Has anyone actually built a magnetic monopole? (I'm serious) If you can build one, you are able to violate current laws of physics. So if you could proof this thing to work, you'd be a candidate for a Nobelprize. Kyle also wrote: >I have constructed a device that (depending on the polarity) puts out >ONLY north or south polarity, but not both. Interested? Could be VERY >useful. Measuring mono-polarity seems to be worth a scientific paper already... How did you measure that? Timothy From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 15 08:50 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["951" "Tue" "15" "July" "1997" "16:26:00" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "27" "starship-design: Re: antimatter fountain: popsci article" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA20003 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:50:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA19965 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-027.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wo8b2-000FPyC; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:28:56 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 950 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: antimatter fountain: popsci article Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:26:00 +0100 Ben, Indeed 28 Apr 1997 the NASA newsletter wrote about "Antimatter Clouds and Fountain Discovered in the Milky Way" >however, other scientists have proposed a different source for >the positrons: one or more black holes believed to exist at >the galaxy's center. >so guys, what do you think of this? id like to hear >what you think... if its true or not, if they got anything >wrong... etc etc. The 511KeV signature has indeed been seen for a long time where electrons and positrons annihilate. Likely astronomic disasters (supernovea etc.) work like particle accelerators and thus can create similar particles. So yes, it is quite sure positrons are available (They don't know for how long though, they may well be annihilated microseconds after their creation.) The source is likely to be guesswork until better observations and models become available. The big disadvantage for practical use is that this source is too far away. Timothy From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 15 08:51 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["453" "Tue" "15" "July" "1997" "16:26:01" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "14" "starship-design: Re: Aliens" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA20152 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA20125 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-027.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wo8b4-000FQ5C; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:28:58 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 452 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Aliens Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:26:01 +0100 Kyle wondered: >I read about the thought of life on a gas planet. I think its possible, >but wonder (I know this will sound dumb): what would they build >spaceships out of? Its a logical question. They can use dead bodies to extract the materials from. Sorry to be so crude, but your question probably should have been, what are these creatures build of? If you know the answer, than you most likely know the source for spaceship material. Timothy From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 15 08:51 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3054" "Tue" "15" "July" "1997" "16:26:03" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "72" "starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA20305 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:51:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA20271 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-027.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wo8b5-000FQ4C; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:28:59 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 3053 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us? Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:26:03 +0100 Kelly, >>Immune systems usually see almost every non-self organism as dangerous. I >>wouldn't think that it doesn't matter much whether the non-self organism >>comes from space or Earth. >>In some cases the body even starts killing something of itself, this is >>called an auto-immune disease. > >Immune systems arn't that good at detecting, much less combating, 'any' >non-self organism. They are best at detecting and defeating things that the >organism routinly is attacked by. Alien micro life would not be something >were 'tuned' to fight or look for. As far as I know they are quite good at detecting, only finding the "antidote" before it is too late can be a problem. However antibiotics usually can help quite a lot. And even if we were not immune to alien bacteria, would we be able to spot it? Likely there are more Earthly bacteria that kill people than Space bacteria. >>>As to the microbes from space, thats a very thinly defined theory. Besides >>>it still gets back to no signs of alien organisms alive here now. >> >>The latter is exactly the point I wanted to make. No apparent signs, so >>whatever comes down, doesn't seem to spread. > >Or never came here, or whiped out an area to quickly to sustain itself. Well, that's why I didn't mention it the other discussion :) To get back to the point: Why would alien bacteria survive better than Earth bacteria? >>Expecting it, has shown to be completely different from knowing it. >>Everyone knows that it is quite likely that something terrible can be >>expected to happen to them during their lifetime. Yet many get badly hurt >>psychologically when it actually happens. >>Primordial microbes from Mars hardly compare to beings that have technology >>that looks like magic. > >Still its unlikely to make us all run home and hide under the bed. It never >did before when we encountered alien (foreign) cultures with magical >technologies and alien forms. I can't see we'ld be that much less able to >handel the same thing now or in the future? Which "cultures with magical technology" do you mean. I can't recall when WE encountered them before. True other cultures did, but I thought they usually believed in magic. >>I didn't mean we were a threath to the aliens. If they start spreading >>technology, some nations may use it in a different way than intended, which >>may change world power in sudden ways. (Eg. Give Saddam Hoessein a ZPE bomb, >>which he nicely puts somewhere in New York.) > >My point was the aliens wouldn't care about those effects. If we can't play >nice with the new toys, thats our problem. Why then contact us and give us the data? Just for the fun to see what happens? >>>If Aliens came all this way, we'ld be the major area of interest on this >>>rock. >> >>True, but dropping in as anthropologists would certainly destroy what they >>where looking for. Only if they are psychologists, they would enjoy playing >>games with us. > >Anthropologists would tend to disagree. What good is destroying your test subject if your only example? Tim From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 15 08:57 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1533" "Tue" "15" "July" "1997" "08:57:38" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu" nil "38" "starship-design: Re: I know this is off the subject but..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA23458 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA23440; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:57:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707151557.IAA23440@darkwing.uoregon.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.15p6 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 1532 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: I know this is off the subject but... Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:57:38 -0700 (PDT) Timothy van der Linden writes: > Kyle asked: > > >Has anyone actually built a magnetic monopole? (I'm serious) > > If you can build one, you are able to violate current laws of physics. > So if you could proof this thing to work, you'd be a candidate for a Nobelprize. Maxwell's equations can be slightly modified to account for monopoles; changing a zero to a constant in the equation that describes magnetic flux would deal with the monopole case. However, since no one has ever observed a monopole (yet) it's believed that the current formulation of Maxwell's equations is correct. > Kyle also wrote: > > >I have constructed a device that (depending on the polarity) puts out > >ONLY north or south polarity, but not both. Interested? Could be VERY > >useful. > > Measuring mono-polarity seems to be worth a scientific paper already... How > did you measure that? > > Timothy Actually, it's fairly easy to detect a monopole. The detector I heard of is simply a loop of superconducting material. A monopole passing through the loop would induce a current flow that would remain in the loop after the passage of the monpole, unlike a dipole which after passing through the loop would leave no net current flow. So, Kyle, there's a simple experimental test for your alleged monopole. I'm sure that consultation with a physicist would either allow you to test your monopole or get you an explanation of why you don't really have one. If you thought I was skeptical, try dealing with a real physicist :-) From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 15 13:49 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1710" "Tue" "15" "July" "1997" "22:46:12" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "39" "starship-design: Re: I know this is off the subject but..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id NAA29742 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:49:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA29665 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-024.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0woEWw-000HAeC; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:49:06 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1709 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: I know this is off the subject but... Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:46:12 +0100 Steve wrote: >Maxwell's equations can be slightly modified to account for monopoles; >changing a zero to a constant in the equation that describes magnetic >flux would deal with the monopole case. I never really liked the Maxwell approach to magnetics. Einstein's approach (relativistic velocity addition) seems to be more fundamental and gives more insight. I would not know how to incorporate monopoles into the latter theory, unless space is warped in strange ways (like anti-gravity). >However, since no one has ever observed a monopole (yet) it's believed >that the current formulation of Maxwell's equations is correct. Just there is not a current observation of repulsive-gravity. >Actually, it's fairly easy to detect a monopole. The detector I heard >of is simply a loop of superconducting material. A monopole passing >through the loop would induce a current flow that would remain in the >loop after the passage of the monpole, unlike a dipole which after >passing through the loop would leave no net current flow. Yes, that would work, except that it may be difficult to have 100% symmetry doing it like this: Suppose you've a normal magnet, how do you know that you have moved it an exact equal distance from "in front of" to "at the back of" the superconductor? To be able to do this you should be able to figure out where the "center of magnetivity" of the magnet is. To avoid this problem, you may turn around the monopole in the neighbourhood of the superconductor. After a 360 degree turn, the current in the superconductor before and after should be the same. (Of course if you have a big magnetic monopole, the crude method will give results that speak for themselves) Timothy From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 15 14:03 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["349" "Tue" "15" "July" "1997" "15:03:11" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" "<33CBF39E.4FAC@sunherald.infi.net>" "11" "starship-design: Magnetic Monopole" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id OAA06986 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA06971 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-111.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-111.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.111]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA24218 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:03:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33CBF39E.4FAC@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 348 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Magnetic Monopole Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 15:03:11 -0700 When I tested the field, I found (using a compass) that there was no south field at all surrounding the monopole. Could a device like this be useful for anything? I was thinking maybe magnetic monorails? How does magnetism warp gravity? Anti-gravity? What are the charachteristics of a magnetic monopole? (device, not particle) Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 15 14:27 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1856" "Tue" "15" "July" "1997" "14:27:17" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu" nil "40" "starship-design: Magnetic Monopole" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id OAA17969 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id OAA17956; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:27:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707152127.OAA17956@darkwing.uoregon.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <33CBF39E.4FAC@sunherald.infi.net> References: <33CBF39E.4FAC@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.15p6 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 1855 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: kyle Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Magnetic Monopole Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:27:17 -0700 (PDT) kyle writes: > When I tested the field, I found (using a compass) that there was no > south field at all surrounding the monopole. Could a device like this be > useful for anything? I was thinking maybe magnetic monorails? One has to be careful interpreting the behavior of a compass. For example, a non-magnetized lump of iron would show similar behavior; depending on which end of the compass you brought closest to it first, that end would keep pointing at the lump for as long as you kept the compass nearby and didn't shake it too much, because the magnet of the compass needle is attracted to the iron lump. Your measurement is definitely not conclusive. If your object is a dipole (and I strongly suspect it is, you probably just aren't being careful enough about measuring the field) then it will show orientation in a magnetic field consistent with that; it will line up differently depending on the direction of an externally-applied magnetic field. Oh, and don't forget to throw it through a superconducting ring, just to be sure :-) > How does magnetism warp gravity? Anti-gravity? It doesn't. Mass will create a gravitational field proportional to the mass, but the electric charge or magnetic field of that mass has no effect on the gravitational field created (other than the field energy's contribution to the mass). > What are the charachteristics of a magnetic monopole? (device, not > particle) The dumb answer is that a magnetic monopole is not a dipole. A monopole is either all north or all south, analagous to how electric fields are either positive or negatively charged. However, nobody's ever observed a monopole nor has anyone constructed a device to form a monopole magnetic field. All known means of producing magnetism have to form dipole fields if they use either electric current or magnetic materials. From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 15 14:27 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2559" "Tue" "15" "July" "1997" "14:28:01" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "50" "starship-design: Re: I know this is off the subject but..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id OAA18332 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:27:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA18261 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [198.68.17.19]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA23734; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:26:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) id OAA28571; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:28:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707152128.OAA28571@tzadkiel.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.15p6 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 2558 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: I know this is off the subject but... Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:28:01 -0700 Timothy van der Linden writes: > Steve wrote: > > >Maxwell's equations can be slightly modified to account for monopoles; > >changing a zero to a constant in the equation that describes magnetic > >flux would deal with the monopole case. > > I never really liked the Maxwell approach to magnetics. Einstein's approach > (relativistic velocity addition) seems to be more fundamental and gives more > insight. I would not know how to incorporate monopoles into the latter > theory, unless space is warped in strange ways (like anti-gravity). Electromagnetism isn't exactly my strong point. The English version of the relevant Maxwell equation is that magnetic flux, integrated over a complete surface (topologically equivalent to a sphere with no holes), is zero. A magnetic monopole, on the other hand, would have a nonzero flux. As electric monpoles already exist, the electric-field Maxwell equation basically says that electric field flux integrated over a surface is equal to the charge enclosed by the surface. > >Actually, it's fairly easy to detect a monopole. The detector I heard > >of is simply a loop of superconducting material. A monopole passing > >through the loop would induce a current flow that would remain in the > >loop after the passage of the monpole, unlike a dipole which after > >passing through the loop would leave no net current flow. > > Yes, that would work, except that it may be difficult to have 100% symmetry > doing it like this: Suppose you've a normal magnet, how do you know that you > have moved it an exact equal distance from "in front of" to "at the back of" > the superconductor? > To be able to do this you should be able to figure out where the "center of > magnetivity" of the magnet is. By the Maxwell approach, you don't need to worry about "center of magnetivity"; no matter where you place the surface you intregrate magnetic flux over, whether it's surrounding the magnet or not, you get zero for the total flux in the normal case and a nonzero flux if there's a magnetic monopole nearby. > To avoid this problem, you may turn around the monopole in the neighbourhood > of the superconductor. After a 360 degree turn, the current in the > superconductor before and after should be the same. > > (Of course if you have a big magnetic monopole, the crude method will give > results that speak for themselves) >From what I remember (and I'm not claiming any great authority on this) hypothetical monopoles are essentially point-like particles, with "magnetic charge". From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 15 14:58 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1323" "Tue" "15" "July" "1997" "15:58:02" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "33" "Re: starship-design: Magnetic Monopole" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id OAA02844 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:58:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA02789 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-111.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-90.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.90]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA18997; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:58:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33CC0071.64F@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <33CBF39E.4FAC@sunherald.infi.net> <199707152127.OAA17956@darkwing.uoregon.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 1322 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, Steve VanDevender Subject: Re: starship-design: Magnetic Monopole Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 15:58:02 -0700 Steve VanDevender wrote: > > > One has to be careful interpreting the behavior of a compass. For > example, a non-magnetized lump of iron would show similar behavior; > depending on which end of the compass you brought closest to it first, > that end would keep pointing at the lump for as long as you kept the > compass nearby and didn't shake it too much, because the magnet of the > compass needle is attracted to the iron lump. Your measurement is > definitely not conclusive. I pointed the south side of the compass at the monopole, and it changed direction. I tried testing it with another permanent magnet, which quickly began to vibrate, and tried to switch sides. (N/S) > If your object is a dipole (and I strongly suspect it is, you probably > just aren't being careful enough about measuring the field) then it will > show orientation in a magnetic field consistent with that; it will line > up differently depending on the direction of an externally-applied > magnetic field. Its a dipole, but with monopolar qualities. A south field is produced (and only south) on the inside of the device, and only north on the outside. I still think its useful though. > > Oh, and don't forget to throw it through a superconducting ring, just to > be sure :-) I don't have a superconductive ring. Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 16 02:37 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1443" "Wed" "16" "July" "1997" "11:37:47" "+0200" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "35" "starship-design: Re: Magnetic Monopole" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id CAA22577 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 02:37:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA22566 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 02:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-016.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0woQWp-000FxaC; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:37:47 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1442 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Magnetic Monopole Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:37:47 +0200 (MET DST) Kyle, In response to a letter you wrote to Steve (and SD): >>One has to be careful interpreting the behavior of a compass. For >>example, a non-magnetized lump of iron would show similar behavior; >>depending on which end of the compass you brought closest to it first, >>that end would keep pointing at the lump for as long as you kept the >>compass nearby and didn't shake it too much, because the magnet of the >>compass needle is attracted to the iron lump. Your measurement is >>definitely not conclusive. > >I pointed the south side of the compass at the monopole, and it changed >direction. I tried testing it with another permanent magnet, which >quickly began to vibrate, and tried to switch sides. (N/S) Can you explain that again? There are some unclear parts in the lines above. Did the south-side of the compassneedle point towards the monopole all the time? Did you do this over the whole surface (so not just in one plane)? (Keep in mind that the magnetic field may not be symmetric.) >Its a dipole, but with monopolar qualities. A south field is produced >(and only south) on the inside of the device, and only north on the >outside. I still think its useful though. Being this convinced with such rough measurements is usually not likely to help you... Timothy P.S. As about "How does magnetism warp gravity? Anti-gravity?" and "What are the charachteristics of a magnetic monopole?", I agree with Steve. From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 16 02:37 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2356" "Wed" "16" "July" "1997" "11:37:45" "+0200" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "53" "starship-design: Re: I know this is off the subject but..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id CAA22631 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 02:37:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA22620 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 02:37:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-016.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0woQWn-000FvBC; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:37:45 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 2355 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: I know this is off the subject but... Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:37:45 +0200 (MET DST) Steve, >Electromagnetism isn't exactly my strong point. The English version of >the relevant Maxwell equation is that magnetic flux, integrated over a >complete surface (topologically equivalent to a sphere with no holes), >is zero. A magnetic monopole, on the other hand, would have a nonzero >flux. As electric monpoles already exist, the electric-field Maxwell >equation basically says that electric field flux integrated over a >surface is equal to the charge enclosed by the surface. True, this surface flux integration is indeed the essential indicator. >By the Maxwell approach, you don't need to worry about "center of >magnetivity"; no matter where you place the surface you intregrate >magnetic flux over, whether it's surrounding the magnet or not, you get >zero for the total flux in the normal case and a nonzero flux if there's >a magnetic monopole nearby. I understood this, but with the superconducting loop, you won't be able to measure a closed surface unless you change the radius of the superconducting loop. (--> First make the radius 0, then enlarge it to move the monopole through it, then close the loop to zero radius again.) So your theory is right, but less practical to test with a more or less solid super conducting loop. I've to admit though that if you start at an "infinite" distance (100 meters) from the superconductor loop and end a similar distance, the surface of the loop will become infinitely small compared to the total surface. So unless you expect really small monopoles, you will likely not need closing the loop. >>To avoid this problem, you may turn around the monopole in the neighbourhood >>of the superconductor. After a 360 degree turn, the current in the >>superconductor before and after should be the same. Hmmm, having rethought this method, it is almost 100% certain to fail since it only integrates a small "orbit" from the surface. So, the method Steve suggested with the modification of closing the loop should make the proof indefinately. >>(Of course if you have a big magnetic monopole, the crude method will give >>results that speak for themselves) > >From what I remember (and I'm not claiming any great authority on this) >hypothetical monopoles are essentially point-like particles, with >"magnetic charge". Sorry, instead of "big" I should have written "strong". Timothy From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 16 12:30 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2012" "Wed" "16" "July" "1997" "16:04:22" "-0300" "Antonio C T Rocha" "arocha@bsb.nutecnet.com.br" nil "46" "Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id MAA29329 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:30:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from srv1-bsb.bsb.nutecnet.com.br ([200.252.253.1] (may be forged)) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA29305 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Metacor.bsb.nutecnet.com.br (dl1193-bsb.bsb.nutecnet.com.br [200.252.253.193]) by srv1-bsb.bsb.nutecnet.com.br (8.8.5/SCA-6.6) with ESMTP id TAA17088 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 19:24:53 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33CD1B34.B00A555@bsb.nutecnet.com.br> Organization: is unrealistic X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Antonio C T Rocha Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 2011 From: Antonio C T Rocha Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:04:22 -0300 Timothy van der Linden wrote: > Kyle wondered: > > >I read about the thought of life on a gas planet. I think its > possible, > >but wonder (I know this will sound dumb): what would they build > >spaceships out of? Its a logical question. > > They can use dead bodies to extract the materials from. > Sorry to be so crude, but your question probably should have been, > what are > these creatures build of? If you know the answer, than you most likely > know > the source for spaceship material. > > Timothy Hello again, Conditions under which microbial life has already been found on earth - boiling hot, very acidic, very high pressures in the bottom of mines, near volcano-shafts, near sulforous vents on the sea floor - possibly also exist _somewhere_ on Venus and/or the gas giants. If primitive life was indeed seeded from space, and is therefor similar in potential, it might be as probable somewhere on Venus' surface as it is on the ocean floor on top of a boiling sulfurous volcano-vent on Earth. Gas giants present growing pressures towards their centers, to the point where the "gas" possibly liquefies and then solidifies. Conditions at some "altitude" might resemble the above sulfurous vents or even the surface of Venus itself. Supposing that lifeforms higher than just microbes existed there, they might be, as Carl Sagan suggested, baloon-like in the gaseous regions, and predators there might tend to be bird-like. Similar logic might be applied to the liquid and solid (if any) regions of the gas giants. If I had to make a spaceship while living on a gas giant, I would try to spin very dense cocoons of polyamide/amine-like material (kevlar, teflon, nylon, etc.) that might be "mined" from the surrounding nitrogen hydrogen oxygen carbon compounds (that we know of - might be others). Hydrogen or carbohydrates and oxygen would be the fuels of choice. If I did have "force-field" or ZPE generators or space-time "bubblifiers", of course, it would tend to be easier :-) From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 16 12:31 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["978" "Wed" "16" "July" "1997" "12:31:06" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "20" "Re: starship-design: Magnetic Monopole" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id MAA29631 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA29597 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:31:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [198.68.17.19]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA08720; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) id MAA04170; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:31:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707161931.MAA04170@tzadkiel.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <33CC0071.64F@sunherald.infi.net> References: <33CBF39E.4FAC@sunherald.infi.net> <199707152127.OAA17956@darkwing.uoregon.edu> <33CC0071.64F@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.15p7 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 977 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: kyle Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Magnetic Monopole Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:31:06 -0700 kyle writes: > > If your object is a dipole (and I strongly suspect it is, you probably > > just aren't being careful enough about measuring the field) then it will > > show orientation in a magnetic field consistent with that; it will line > > up differently depending on the direction of an externally-applied > > magnetic field. > > Its a dipole, but with monopolar qualities. A south field is produced > (and only south) on the inside of the device, and only north on the > outside. I still think its useful though. That's too easy not to have been tried before. I know there has to be some reason why you can't just build a ball of dipoles with all the south poles pointing in and north poles pointing out and have that be a monopole, but I'm not knowledgeable enough about electromagnetism to say why at the moment. You should probably get together with a good physics teacher and find out whether what you've built could really work like you think it does. From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 16 14:25 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["302" "Thu" "17" "July" "1997" "05:26:44" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "11" "starship-design: I'm a new member" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id OAA18674 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:25:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA18640 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id RLM23379; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:24:50 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970717.052645.12190.0.jimaclem@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-9 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 301 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: lunar@sunsite.unc.edu Subject: starship-design: I'm a new member Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 05:26:44 -0400 Hello everyone, I'm a mechanical engineer, and found your web site. Absolutely fascinating! Will someone please help me get up to speed on whats happening. I love the idea of instellar flight, and am glad to be part of a serious discussion. Thanks. Jim Clem, BSE jimaclem@juno.com From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 16 17:35 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["27249" "Wed" "16" "July" "1997" "19:22:14" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "524" "starship-design: FW: SSRT: Space Access Update no. 73 (FWD)" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id RAA04081 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:35:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA04068 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p16.gnt.com (x2p16.gnt.com [204.49.68.221]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA21161 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 19:35:18 -0500 Received: by x2p16.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC921F.5A2755A0@x2p16.gnt.com>; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 19:35:01 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC921F.5A2755A0@x2p16.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 27248 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: starship-design: FW: SSRT: Space Access Update no. 73 (FWD) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 19:22:14 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: Chris W. Johnson [SMTP:chrisj@mail.utexas.edu] Sent: Monday, July 14, 1997 8:14 PM To: Single Stage Rocket Technology News Subject: SSRT: Space Access Update no. 73 (FWD) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:53:45 -0700 (MST) From: Donald Doughty To: delta-clipper@world.std.com Subject: Space Access Update #73 7/14/97 (fwd) Sender: delta-clipper-approval@world.std.com Reply-To: delta-clipper@world.std.com >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:56:59 -0400 (EDT) >From: hvanderbilt@BIX.com >Subject: Space Access Update #73 7/14/97 Space Access Update #73 7/14/97 Copyright 1997 by Space Access Society ________________________________________________________________________ Stories this issue: - Editorial: First X, *then* Y, or, The Effective Integration of New Technologies into Advanced Aerospace Vehicles - X-33 Emergency "Tiger Team" Review Results - Management Acknowledges Problems, Begins Fixes - SFF/NASA "Cheap Access" Symposium in DC July 21-22 - Mixed Results Last Week on NASA "Future X", DOD "Spaceplane" Funding * Alert: NASA "Future X" Funding Part of Critical House Floor Showdown Tuesday, Also In Senate Appropriations Subcommittee Markup Tuesday ________________________________________________________________________ First X, *then* Y or The Effective Integration of New Technologies into Advanced Aerospace Vehicles (Ref "First pillage, *then* burn..." Written for the program book of the July 21-22 SFF/NASA "Cheap Access" symposium.) X-vehicles are hot in the space business these days - fashionable and fundable. It should come as no surprise then that all sorts of people are tagging their pet projects "X" in hopes of jumping onto the funding bandwagon. But while federal funding for space X-vehicles is available, it's far from unlimited. We have a strong interest in making clear what is and isn't actually "X", what we will and will not support the government doing with the available funding. One pseudo-X example is the X-38 ACRV, a "Y" vehicle in X clothing, a routine operational mission-flying vehicle project disguised as an advanced experiment. A variation on this theme is "X" projects where operational mission requirements are mixed willy-nilly with experimental goals, as with the original X-34. Such confusion between experimental and operational goals led to the original X-34 project's demise, and causes ongoing problems for X-33. (Y-vehicles are prototypes of ships intended, with minor production refinements, to carry operational payloads and perform operational missions. Repeat after us: "Prototypes" are NOT X-vehicles.) OK, you say, so how would we define a genuine X-vehicle. We're glad you asked... New aerospace vehicle technologies can be taken only so far in computer simulations and wind tunnels and test stands. There comes a time when the only way to pin down the remaining uncertainties is flight test - the sims and ground tests are good and getting better, but there are always conditions the sim only approximated, interactions the ground-testers didn't anticipate. The wrong way to flight-test new technologies is to bring together a whole bunch of them directly into a project to build, say, a prototype airbreathing-to-orbit spaceplane (NASP) or (hypothetical example of course) an SSTO replacement for NASA's Space Shuttle. In theory this approach saves time and money - skip all the intermediate flight-test data-gathering and debugging, and go straight to a prototype as close as possible to the final operational vehicle. There's a problem with this approach: the relatively large remaining uncertainties in the partially tested new technologies force the designers to use large safety margins, because the resulting vehicle MUST work, reliably over many flights - it's costing billions, it has a high political profile, and it has payload-carrying missions it MUST fly. High risks for high payoffs are not allowed. The large margins translate to heavier subsystems. The heavier subsystems multiply more than add: heavier tanks require heavier support structures require more powerful engines require larger tanks require... More expensive materials and more exotic manufacturing techniques are dragged in to try to contain the weight increases. The vehicle size and cost balloon, the project bloats and stretches out, the final result is at best a marginally operable kluge. As we said, a hypothetical example only. The right way to flight-test new technologies is, well, to flight-test 'em. An X-vehicle is an ad hoc flight demonstrator, designed to find out as quickly and cheaply as possible what happens when one or more new technologies are pushed to their limits. X-vehicles can range in scope from a new rapidly-solidified-unobtainium TPS sample bolted onto a sounding rocket for a few millions, to a package of mostly existing plus a few new technologies bundled into an integrated flight test vehicle for a few hundreds of millions. Either way, X-vehicles have no missions but building experience and returning data, and no payloads but instruments and in some cases pilots. X-vehicles are essentially disposable - you don't waste resources on production-engineering, you don't include much systems redundancy, you build several copies and count on breaking one or two before the test program's over. After you've built and flown an X-vehicle, THEN you have the data and experience to design an operational prototype. Paradoxically, doing two design-build-fly cycles, X-vehicle then prototype, historically ends up quicker cheaper and more effective than trying to compress the process into one giant leap from the ground test labs to an operational vehicle. ________________________________________________________________________ X-33 "Tiger Team" Review Results Some results of last month's emergency "tiger team" review of the X-33 program are coming out (see Space News June 23 page 2 and AW&ST June 30 page 27). Apparently NASA and Lockheed-Martin are no longer pretending everything's fine with X-33. They're also beginning to take steps to deal with the problems they've identified, which gives us increased hope that X-33 might yet fly in some useful form. (Somewhere inside that $1.2 billion "subscale Shuttle replacement prototype" we sense a $600 million X-vehicle screaming to get out...) - Weight. The initial target for X-33's empty weight was 63,000 lbs, with a fully-fuelled gross liftoff weight (GLOW) of 273,000 lbs. Empty weight has crept up to 80,000 lbs, with prospect of further increases as the design evolves. 80,000 lbs would cause X-33 to fall well short of the specified Mach 15 top speed, and would make it marginal at best for reaching Malmstrom AFB (in Montana) from Edwards (in southern California) on the max speed test flights. Further increases and X-33 definitely wouldn't make Malmstrom. The tiger team (actually the Technical Readiness Review Team, TRRT, with go-anywhere authority and members from Lockheed-Martin, McDonnell- Douglas, and NASA's Dryden, Marshall, and Langley centers) has identified 10,000 pounds of potential weight reductions. Further review shows that at least 5,000 lbs of this can be accomplished with no reduction in the scope of the project - avoiding scope reductions is a significant political concern; we and others feel the contractor should deliver what they promised to win this bid. - Densified Propellants. At 75,000 lbs dry, X-33 could still end up short of range for the high-speed tests if (as seems likely between now and design-freeze this fall) weight creeps up again. One proposal to deal with this is the use of "densified" propellants, cooled down below the boiling point enough to be increased in density several percent - this would allow additional propellant in the (already fixed-size) tanks and provide some extra margin. (The former Rockwell included densified propellants in their X-33 bid and displayed some propellant-loading heat exchanger hardware at their RLV Expo in spring '96.) This would be an additional operational complication, but we've pretty much given up on X-33 proving much about austere ops anyway - this is an interesting technology, and we have no objection in principle to adding it to X-33. We are however very skeptical about doing it as an addition to the contract involving extra payments; it would be too easy to use as a backdoor way of paying for part of the likely contractor overruns. Better perhaps to do it as a NASA in-kind contribution to the program - either in-house or via a separate contractor. - Cost Overruns. Published estimates of likely X-33 cost overruns range from $5 million to $500 million, on a $1.2 billion total ($950m NASA, $250m contractor) project. We expect the actual figure will be in the middle of that range, $200m - $300m, when the dust finally settles. Lockheed-Martin management has been saying, meanwhile, that they expect to complete the project without asking for any extra money, that any overruns will be covered by planned reserves. We're told this is not just talk, that they've promised Dan Goldin face- to-face they won't ask for more money. This seeming contradiction can be explained two ways: Either they're dumb enough to think that lying about this, now, is a good idea (highly unlikely) or they've decided to eat the overruns, pay for 'em out of corporate cash. Unprecedented, if so. Lowballing to win a bid then making it up in the overruns is a time-honored tradition in the US aerospace industry. Administrator Goldin's recent more-restrictive rule is, cancel the project if overruns exceed 15%. That still leaves room for Lockheed- Martin to haggle for a good bit extra if project costs rise - but they don't seem to be haggling. Could the tiger-team review have turned up a smoking gun on lowballing? Could NASA have told LockMart their overrun margin on this one is 0%, not 15%? Could we be reading far too much into sparse data? All of these are possible. Time will tell. - Aerodynamics. The chosen X-33 lifting-body configuration turns out to have control problems at various points during its flight profile, in pitch during the transition from supersonic to subsonic during descent, and laterally at landing. Canards, small nose-mounted control surfaces, are one possibility to cure the transonic instabilities. They'd have to be retractable though, with additional weight, cost and reliability impact, or they'd burn off during reentry as well as exacerbate control problems at landing. Another possibility is to increase the vertical stabilizer size for better lateral stibility at landing, and cant them inwards as with the F-18 for better transonic stability. The tip fins on the lifting body, meanwhile, have grown large enough that they might as well be (and are being called) wings. All of this adds weight, drag, and expense both manufacturing and operating. Aside from the specifics of the weight reductions identified (more on those when we know more) the biggest change being made is in program organization: From being spread all over the map, project management is being concentrated again in Palmdale at the actual Skunkworks. We-told- you-so department: In SAU #62, April 1996, we said: "Lockheed- Martin(s)... ..last major public move was the Lockheed-Martin merger, which we understand caused pieces of their X-33 bid to be spread all over the map rather than kept concentrated at the old Lockheed Advanced Development shop, better known as the 'Skunk Works'. Handing out pieces of the project.. ...seems likely to be a minus in terms of maintaining the proven closely-integrated Skunk Works structure." >From Aviation Week & Space Technology of 30 June 1997, page 27, "All told there are 29 organizations in 16 states working on X-33/RLV". From Space News of June 23rd, page 2, "As part of its effort to resolve the engineering problems, Lockheed Martin has decided to centralize management of the program at the company's Skunk Works facility in Palmdale California." Ken Mattingly in suburban DC is out and Jerry Rising in Palmdale is in as project boss, the systems integration engineering team is being reinforced 50% and moved from Denver to Palmdale... These are steps in the right direction at least. One last thought for now: Some are already saying that X-33's weight growth problems "prove" SSTO is impractical. To which we say, nonsense! We've been saying all along that practical SSTO will be a major engineering challenge and that the best way to do it is with a small, highly skilled, tightly integrated engineering team of the sort the old Skunk Works (among others) was known for. All X-33's early problems prove is what we've been saying all along: Business-as-usual mass-assault contractor-in-every-district engineering - however politically expedient - isn't good enough. This plug-in-the- disposable-personnel style of project management is *precisely* what the TRRT "tiger team" found was the major cause of X-33's weight growth. A skilled highly integrated development team is a whole greater than the sum of its parts. If the US government aerospace complex (re)learns that one lesson and no other from X-33, the project will have paid for itself many times over. ________________________________________________________________________ SFF/NASA "Cheap Access" Symposium in DC July 21-22 Space Frontier Foundation is running a NASA sponsored "Cheap Access" symposium at the Hyatt Regency Capitol Hill (400 New Jersey Ave NW in Washington DC, $79/night summer rate available) Monday July 21st and Tuesday July 22nd. Admission is free, NASA's paying the expenses. This looks like being heavily weighted towards major aerospace and DC insiders; cheap access activists who can attend will leaven the mix. We'll be on a Tuesday afternoon panel on X-vehicles. Info and online registration at http://www.space-frontier.org/CATS. ________________________________________________________________________ Mixed Results Last Week on NASA "Future X", DOD "Spaceplane" Funding First, our thanks to everyone who called or faxed the Congress in response to our alert last week. We're going to ask you to do it again this week, and this time get a friend or two to also. More on that in the next section. The results last week were mixed. On the DOD "military spaceplane" (MSP) R&D funding side, the best info we have is that the House Appropriations DOD Subcommittee matched the House DOD Authorizations amount of $15 million, while the Senate DOD Appropriations Subcommittee zeroed MSP despite $10 million in the Senate DOD Authorization. We flat-out fell behind the curve on the Senate Defense Appropriation; the bill is on the Senate floor and near a final vote as we write. We don't know what's in it for MSP, but unless something behind-the-scenes worked out, we suspect still zero. Our next chance to affect the issue is in the House-Senate conference this fall. Regarding NASA "Future X" funding, things are getting complicated. (background: "Future X" is NASA's proposed program to follow up X-33 with an ongoing series of smaller space launch X-projects, less ambitious (and far less expensive) individually but with potential for far more total impact in the long run. The Future X people seem to have learned from X-33 that you can go for far higher gains if you divide your risk among a bunch of smaller projects rather than gamble everything on a single large one. We agree, and we're supporting efforts to get NASA Future X funded next year.) (background: Congressional "Authorizations" bills are roughly equivalent to an authorized shopping list. "Appropriations" bills are where the checks are actually written. In theory both are necessary before any Federal money can be spent.) Rep. Dana Rohrabacher's Space Subcommittee of the House Science Committee put $300 million for an X-33 followon (this was before NASA's "Future X" plans had gone public) in the House NASA Authorization bill, and Rep. James Sensenbrenner, head of the full House Science Committee, backed him up - Rohrabacher's NASA Authorization then passed the full House by a large margin. (background: Congressional appropriators in recent years have routinely ignored the NASA authorizers. Often Congress didn't even bother to pass a final NASA Authorization bill. This is changing under the new chief NASA authorizer, Space Subcommittee Chairman Rohrabacher. There are signs that the Senate NASA Authorizers under Senator John McCain may also take a more active interest this year. A major turf battle with the Appropriators is brewing.) Meanwhile, Rep. Jerry Lewis's HUD/VA/IA (NASA) Subcommittee of the House Appropriations Committee both ignored the Future X authorization and provided NASA a pair of escape routes past the $2.1 billion annual spending cap on the Space Station program - $100 million in extra cash to cover Russian overruns, plus $150 million in "raiding authority", permission for NASA to transfer up to $150 million from other NASA projects to Station. (background: NASA Station was near defunding a couple years back; the $2.1 billion spending cap was a major element of the deal that kept it going. It's all over Washington now though that Station has been sweeping overruns under the rug ever since, and that there's no way to hide them any more - the total overrun by next year is expected to be near a half billion dollars. Shuttle ate everyone else's lunch within NASA for most of a decade, and people remember. Making sure Station won't repeat this history was key to the deal that kept it alive.) The full Appropriations Committee backed Rep. Lewis's NASA Appropriation last week - Future X got nothing, and meanwhile Station was both being given extra money over the agreed limit, and also being given permission to raid other NASA projects to pay for Station overruns. We're very unhappy about zero for Future X, and a whole lot of people are unhappy about busting the $2.1 billion Station spending cap, most especially about the $150 million internal raiding authority. The 800 pound gorrilla is starting to eye everyone else's lunch again... At the very least, this shouldn't happen without hearings to establish why. So now the HUD/VA/Independent Agencies Appropriation (NASA is by far the largest of the "Independent Agencies" covered) goes to the full House for floor debate, amendments, and final passage, likely starting the evening of Tuesday the 15th, tomorrow. And there will be amendments offered by Rep. Rohrabacher and others to fix the Future X and Station problems, and the result will be a test of strength between the House NASA appropriators and authorizers. The main amendment sponsors will be Representative Dana Rohrabacher and Representative Tim Roemer - Roemer is a long-time critic of Space Station. We don't know the exact structure of the amendments to be offered (there will be more than one) but our current information is as follows, subject to last-second changes: -- The $150 million in "raiding permission" will be dealt with procedurally rather than via amendment. -- One "Rohrabacher-Roemer" amendment will transfer $100 million from NASA's "Human Spaceflight" account to the account that covers reusable launch vehicle work, the intent being to cancel the $100 million new money for Russian Station overruns and provide $100 million startup funding for NASA Future X. -- A second Rohrabacher-Roemer amendment will limit overall Station construction and operations spending next year to the previously agreed $2.1 billion cap, preventing raids on Shuttle funding or on Station science funding to pay for Station construction cost overruns. We're supporting both Rohrabacher-Roemer amendments, and asking you to do the same. The reason for supporting the reusable launch/Future X funding amendment is obvious. The reasons for supporting the Station funding limits amendment are a bit less obvious. In part, it's a matter of supporting people who are supporting us, of an ad hoc coalition. Then too, the rest of NASA has had to live with tight fiscal discipline for years now. Why should the Station project be rewarded for overruns by being given permission to raid projects that have succeeded within their new limits? Especially when some of the projects at risk might eventually be cheap access related ones, of far more long-term benefit to the nation than the current expensive-access constrained Station project. ________________________________________________________________________ * Alert: NASA "Future X" Funding in Critical House Floor Showdown Tuesday Night July 15th - Wednesday If Schedule Slips We want all of you to call, fax, or telegraph your Representative and ask them to support the Rohrabacher-Roemer amendments to the HUD/VA Appropriations bill. Emphasize your support for $100 million for NASA "Future X" reusable launch research, and if you're comfortable with it also mention your opposition to letting Station break its agreed-on spending cap. You can look up your Representative's local district office in the Federal government section of the "blue pages" of your local phone book. If you're not sure which of several Representatives listed is yours, your local library information desk can likely help you. We recommend that you contact your Representative's Washington office directly - but if you do call or fax the local office, try to do so well before close of business Tuesday, so they can let their Washington counterparts know that they've heard from constituents on the matter before the floor votes happen. Better you should ask the local office for your Representative's Washington office phone (or fax) number, or you can call the US Capitol switchboard at 1 202 224-3121 and get switched through (maybe - they can get pretty overloaded), or you can use the Representative locator available at http://www.house.gov/writerep/ to find out who your representative is and get their DC office phone and fax numbers. If you phone, ask for the LA (Legislative Assistant) who deals with NASA Appropriations, then when you get either them or their voicemail, identify yourself briefly as a constituent ("Hi, my name is Bill Smith, and I'm from East Peoria") then tell them what you want ("I'm calling to ask Representative Jones to support the Rohrabacher-Roemer amendments to the NASA Appropriation bill") then tell them briefly why (EG, "I think funding for Future X at NASA is a vital investment in our country's future technological competitiveness") then, if they don't have any questions, thank them and ring off. If you write or fax, tell them the same basic things, but spend a few more words on why you think it's a good idea. Keep it well under a page though. And of course, always keep it clear and keep it polite. The staffer reading it is likely overworked already, and if you annoy them the last thing they're going to do is go to bat for your pet program. * Alert: Senate Appropriations VA/HUD/IA Subcommittee Marks Up NASA Appropriation bill Tuesday July 15th 4 pm If any of the following Senators is from your state, we ask that you contact them and ask them to support $300 million for NASA "Future X" in the Senate VA/HUD Appropriations bill. Our latest info is that the Subcommittee will begin marking up at 4 pm tomorrow, Tuesday the 15th. voice fax Bond, Christopher (R MO, Chair) (202) 224-5042 224-0139 Burns, Conrad (R MT) 224-2644 224-8594 Stevens, Ted (R AK) 224-3004 224-2354 Shelby, Richard (R AL) 224-5744 224-3416 Campbell, Ben Nighthorse (R CO) 224-5852 224-1933 Craig, Larry (R ID) 224-2752 224-2573 Mikulski, Barbara (D MD) 224-4654 224-2626 Leahy, Patrick (D VT) 224-4242 224-3595 Lautenberg, Frank (D NJ) 224-4744 224-9707 Harkin, Tom (D IA) 224-3254 224-9369 Boxer, Barbara (D CA) 224-3553 Byrd, Robert (D WV) 224-3954 228-0002 That's all for now. Go get 'em! -----------------------(SAS Policy Boilerplate)------------------------ Space Access Update is Space Access Society's when-there's-news publication. Space Access Society's goal is to promote affordable access to space for all, period. We believe in concentrating our resources at whatever point looks like yielding maximum progress toward this goal. Right now, we think this means working our tails off trying to get the government to build and fly multiple quick-and-dirty high-speed reusable "X-rocket" demonstrators in the next three years, in order to quickly build up both experience with and confidence in reusable Single-Stage To Orbit (SSTO) technology. The idea is to reduce SSTO technical uncertainty (and thus development risk and cost) while at the same time increasing investor confidence, to the point where SSTO will make sense as a private commercial investment. We're not far from that point. With luck and hard work, we should see fully-reusable rocket testbeds flying into space before the end of this decade, with practical radically cheaper orbital transports following soon after. Space Access Society won't accept donations from government launch developers or contractors - it would limit our freedom to do what's needed. We survive on member dues and contributions, plus what we make selling tapes and running our annual conference. Join us, and help us make it happen. Henry Vanderbilt, Executive Director, Space Access Society To join Space Access Society or buy the SSTO/DC-X V 3.1 video we have for sale (Two hours, includes all twelve DC-X/XA flights, X-33 bidder animations, X-33, DC-X and SSTO backgrounders, aerospike engine test- stand footage, plus White Sands Missile Range DC-X ops site footage) mail a check to: SAS, 4855 E Warner Rd #24-150, Phoenix AZ 85044. SAS membership with direct email of Space Access Updates is $30 US per year; the SSTO V 3.0 video is $25, $5 off for SAS members, $8 extra for shipping outside North America, US standard VHS NTSC only. __________________________________________________________________________ Space Access Society "Reach low orbit and you're halfway to anywhere 4855 E Warner Rd #24-150 in the Solar System." Phoenix AZ 85044 - Robert A. Heinlein 602 431-9283 voice/fax www.space-access.org "You can't get there from here." space.access@space-access.org - Anonymous - Permission granted to redistribute the full and unaltered text of this - - piece, including the copyright and this notice. All other rights - - reserved. In other words, crossposting, emailing, or printing this - - whole and passing it on to interested parties is strongly encouraged. - From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 16 17:35 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["7387" "Wed" "16" "July" "1997" "19:32:09" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "212" "starship-design: FW: SSRT: SSRT related vote expected Tuesday (FWD)" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id RAA04094 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:35:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA04085 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:35:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p16.gnt.com (x2p16.gnt.com [204.49.68.221]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA21199 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 19:35:31 -0500 Received: by x2p16.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC921F.69574620@x2p16.gnt.com>; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 19:35:26 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC921F.69574620@x2p16.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 7386 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: starship-design: FW: SSRT: SSRT related vote expected Tuesday (FWD) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 19:32:09 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: Chris W. Johnson [SMTP:chrisj@mail.utexas.edu] Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 4:32 PM To: Single Stage Rocket Technology News Subject: SSRT: SSRT related vote expected Tuesday (FWD) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:53:33 -0700 (MST) From: Donald Doughty To: delta-clipper@world.std.com Subject: ALERT: Please Call Congress on Tuesday (fwd) Sender: delta-clipper-approval@world.std.com Reply-To: delta-clipper@world.std.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:41:44 -0400 (EDT) >From: ProSpace97@aol.com >Subject: ALERT: Please Call Congress on Tuesday *************************************************** * ProSpace Legislative ACTION Alert * * Alert No. 97-11, 7/11/97 * *************************************************** * BIG Congressional space vote expected Tuesday * * * * More details on Rohrabacher Amendments * * in support of "Citizens' Space Agenda" * *************************************************** * ACTIONS REQUESTED: * * Call your Member of Congress! * * Distribute to ALL Lists -- Post to ALL Sites * *************************************************** **************************************** * To be ADDED to this List, or * * to be REMOVED from this List * * send a request to ProSpace97@aol.com * **************************************** ************************************************** * TABLE OF CONTENTS * * * * A) BREAKING NEWS: * * - Rep. Tim Roemer promises he will not * * attack the Space Station * * - Vote expected Tuesday Night * * - Space Station research and Space Shuttle * * to be protected * * * * B) ACTIONS REQUESTED: * * 1) Call Your Member of Congress * * 2) Get involved as a "Citizen Leader" * * * ************************************************** * World Wide Web: www.prospace.org * ************************************************** **************** A) BREAKING NEWS **************** <<<< Rep. Tim Roemer promises not to attack Station >>>> In a continuing sea change in national space policy, Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA), Chairman of the House Subcommittee on Space & Aeronautics, has convinced Rep. Tim Roemer (D-IN) to forego his annual attempt to kill the Space Station on the floor of the House of Representatives. Signaling a change of direction, Congressman Roemer has decided to join Rohrabacher's campaign to support "Cheap Access to Space" by amending the VA/HUD bill on the floor of the House of Representatives. <<<< Vote on Floor expected Tuesday Night >>>> The VA/HUD bill is expected to come to the floor of the House on late Tuesday. At that time, Chairman Rohrabacher will propose amendments to the "FY98 VA-HUD-Independent Agencies Appropriations" bill which contains NASA's funding. These amendments will be voted upon by the entire House of Representatives. The VA/HUD bill, as reported out of the Appropriations Committee, is inconsistent with the policies and funding priorities established by the "Civilian Space Authorization Act of 1998 and 1999" (H.R. 1275). Chairman Rohrabacher's amendments are designed to uphold the policies priorities of H.R. 1275. The most important Rohrabacher amendments to the supporters of "Cheap Access to Space" will be an increase in funding for Reusable Launch Vehicle research and development. <<<< Update on Rohrabacher Amendments >>>> In our last legislative alert (97-10), we reported that Rohrabacher would propose amendments to: a) Cut the unrequested $100 million increase for "Russian Program Assurance" for the Space Station; b) Use that $100 million to increase funding for reusable launch vehicle (RLV) research, initiating a follow-on experimental RLV project (Future-X); c) Delete the unorthodox "transfer authority" to take $150 million from NASA's Science, Aeronautics and Technology and/or Mission Support; and d) Set aside $50 million within Mission to Planet Earth to purchase Earth Science data. Our sources now report that Rep. Rohrabacher will also offer amendments to: e) Protect the funding for science research on the Space Station. (Space Station research is now the primary purpose of having the Space Station. This amendment will ensure the scientific community is ready to conduct breakthrough research after construction of the Station is complete.) f) Protect funding for the Space Shuttle (This amendment will protect the Space Shuttle account and support the safety of Shuttle astronauts.) ********************** B) Requests for Action ********************** <<<< Calling your Member - What to Do >>>> 1) Get their Phone Number a) If you know your zip code, but not the name of your Member of Congress, go to: "http://www.vote-smart.org/" b) Congressional Operator -- 202-224-3121. You will need the name of your Member to get their number. 2) Make the Call a) Be polite. b) Tell them who you are; give your home address. c) Ask to speak to the staffer who handles NASA; 3) Your Request - What to Ask (short and sweet): a) Please support a "Citizens' Space Agenda" to open the space frontier to ALL Americans, and vote for the amendment(s) that Rohrabacher will propose on the House floor for the "VA-HUD-Independent Agencies Appropriations" bill; and b) Please Co-Sponsor the amendment(s), and/or speak in favor of the amendment(s) on the floor during the debate. 4) Be Polite & Thank them for their help. 5) An Opportunity to Lead - Ask your Friends to call too! Forward this email alert to your prospace friends and colleagues, and ask them to call. If you are part of a space group or organization, get them actively involved (officially or un-officially) as soon as possible. 6) Feedback -- Please Send it in! If you get any information on the position or intention of your Member of Congress during the call, whether good or bad, please send it to "ProSpace97@aol.com". Knowing the thoughts of your Member of Congress could be critical to not only this fight, but also to future campaigns. ***** For some time it had seemed to me that life was about to begin -- REAL LIFE" But there was always some obstacle in the way, something to be got through first. Some unfinished business. Time still to be served. A debt to be paid. Then life would begin. At last it dawned on me that these obstacles were my life. - Alfred D'Souza *********************************** "Opening the Space Frontier for ALL People, and as soon as possible" E-mail: ProSpace97@aol.com Web: www.prospace.org *********************************** From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 16 19:20 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2285" "Wed" "16" "July" "1997" "20:19:39" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "50" "Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA00432 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 19:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA00418 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 19:20:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-85.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-85.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.85]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA13420; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:19:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33CD8F4A.4B0A@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <33CD1B34.B00A555@bsb.nutecnet.com.br> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 2284 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: Antonio C T Rocha CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:19:39 -0700 Antonio C T Rocha wrote: > > Timothy van der Linden wrote: > Hello again, > Conditions under which microbial life has already been found on earth > - boiling hot, very acidic, very high pressures in the bottom of mines, > near volcano-shafts, near sulforous vents on the sea floor - possibly > also exist _somewhere_ on Venus and/or the gas giants. If primitive life > was indeed seeded from space, and is therefor similar in potential, it > might be as probable somewhere on Venus' surface as it is on the ocean > floor on top of a boiling sulfurous volcano-vent on Earth. > Gas giants present growing pressures towards their centers, to the > point where the "gas" possibly liquefies and then solidifies. Conditions > at some "altitude" might resemble the above sulfurous vents or even the > surface of Venus itself. > Supposing that lifeforms higher than just microbes existed there, > they might be, as Carl Sagan suggested, baloon-like in the gaseous > regions, and predators there might tend to be bird-like. Similar logic > might be applied to the liquid and solid (if any) regions of the gas > giants. > If I had to make a spaceship while living on a gas giant, I would > try to spin very dense cocoons of polyamide/amine-like material (kevlar, > teflon, nylon, etc.) that might be "mined" from the surrounding nitrogen > hydrogen oxygen carbon compounds (that we know of - might be others). A very good idea. Its light, cheap to make, and durable. > Hydrogen or carbohydrates and oxygen would be the fuels of choice. But where do you get the oxygen? Maybe electrolyze water? There couldn't be much free oxygen in a gas giant's atmosphere, since it would react quickly to the hydrogen, making water. > If I did have "force-field" or ZPE generators or space-time "bubblifiers", of > course, it would tend to be easier :-) Just a note: ZPE generators are in the expirimental stage, and are showing sucess. As far as the mention in earlier discussions of ZPE generators depleteing the STC, I think it falls "back-in-its-slot" after use, with no degradation/or quick regeneration. What do you mean by forcefields? Gravity/AntiGravity generators? (possible) What is a "SpaceTime Bublifier"? An Alcubierre type FTL drive? (again, possible) Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 16 20:28 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["656" "Wed" "16" "July" "1997" "20:28:40" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "15" "Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA16290 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:28:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA16278 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (cisco-ts12-line5.uoregon.edu [128.223.150.137]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA06912 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA05269; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:28:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707170328.UAA05269@tzadkiel.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <33CD8F4A.4B0A@sunherald.infi.net> References: <33CD1B34.B00A555@bsb.nutecnet.com.br> <33CD8F4A.4B0A@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.15p7 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 655 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:28:40 -0700 kyle writes: > Just a note: > ZPE generators are in the expirimental stage, and are showing sucess. As > far as the mention in earlier discussions of ZPE generators depleteing > the STC, I think it falls "back-in-its-slot" after use, with no > degradation/or quick regeneration. If people are admitting this in public, then please provide references. If you are usefully extracting energy from the vacuum, then it can't just fall "back in its slot" after use; the energy has to permanently go somewhere else for it to be useful. If the zero-point energy really gets completely replenished, then you aren't getting useful energy out of the vacuum. From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 16 20:36 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1214" "Wed" "16" "July" "1997" "21:36:04" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "35" "Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA17658 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA17641 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-85.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-96.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.96]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA08497; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:36:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33CDA134.51BE@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <33CD1B34.B00A555@bsb.nutecnet.com.br> <33CD8F4A.4B0A@sunherald.infi.net> <199707170328.UAA05269@tzadkiel.efn.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 1213 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, Steve VanDevender Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:36:04 -0700 Steve VanDevender wrote: > > kyle writes: > > Just a note: > > ZPE generators are in the expirimental stage, and are showing sucess. As > > far as the mention in earlier discussions of ZPE generators depleteing > > the STC, I think it falls "back-in-its-slot" after use, with no > > degradation/or quick regeneration. > > If people are admitting this in public, then please provide references. > > If you are usefully extracting energy from the vacuum, then it can't > just fall "back in its slot" after use; the energy has to permanently go > somewhere else for it to be useful. If the zero-point energy really > gets completely replenished, then you aren't getting useful energy out > of the vacuum. Think of it as a quantum version of the water cycle. 1: energy extracted 2: energy used 3: energy useless, dissipates as waste 4: energy recondenses into vacuum 5: energy replenished 6: energy extracted... Since ZPE has been performed at the same frequency, power, place, etc. over and over, apparently the energy is never depleted. This is simply something we have yet to comprehend. Unlike FTL, this has been done. (over, and over...) Remember the law of conservation of energy! Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 16 20:47 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2328" "Wed" "16" "July" "1997" "20:47:36" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "52" "Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA20653 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA20644 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (cisco-ts12-line5.uoregon.edu [128.223.150.137]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA09202; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA05328; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:47:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707170347.UAA05328@tzadkiel.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <33CDA134.51BE@sunherald.infi.net> References: <33CD1B34.B00A555@bsb.nutecnet.com.br> <33CD8F4A.4B0A@sunherald.infi.net> <199707170328.UAA05269@tzadkiel.efn.org> <33CDA134.51BE@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.15p7 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 2327 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: kyle Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, Steve VanDevender Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:47:36 -0700 kyle writes: > Steve VanDevender wrote: > > kyle writes: > > > Just a note: > > > ZPE generators are in the expirimental stage, and are showing sucess. As > > > far as the mention in earlier discussions of ZPE generators depleteing > > > the STC, I think it falls "back-in-its-slot" after use, with no > > > degradation/or quick regeneration. > > > > If people are admitting this in public, then please provide references. > > > > If you are usefully extracting energy from the vacuum, then it can't > > just fall "back in its slot" after use; the energy has to permanently go > > somewhere else for it to be useful. If the zero-point energy really > > gets completely replenished, then you aren't getting useful energy out > > of the vacuum. > > Think of it as a quantum version of the water cycle. > > 1: energy extracted > 2: energy used > 3: energy useless, dissipates as waste > 4: energy recondenses into vacuum > 5: energy replenished > 6: energy extracted... > > Since ZPE has been performed at the same frequency, power, place, etc. > over and over, apparently the energy is never depleted. This is simply > something we have yet to comprehend. Unlike FTL, this has been done. > (over, and over...) > > Remember the law of conservation of energy! Yes, but it argues against you, not for you. The problem for your argument is that the water cycle depends on an external energy source, the Sun, to work. When a hydroelectric generator extracts energy from a river, it's extracting energy that was put there by the Sun evaporating water, which dispersed into the atmosphere, precipitated on land, and settled back toward the ocean. The hydroelectric generator just slows down the settling slightly and gets a fraction of the energy put in by the Sun as a result. Conservation of energy implies that if energy is removed from the vacuum, it is _removed_. If you put it all back then there's nothing left over for you to work with. If you extract energy and turn it into motion or photons or mass, then you can't have put it all back. ZPE, in a very real sense, gets something from nothing. Matter and energy don't react to produce vacuum -- the reactions always produce photons or particles -- so the energy extracted, if it is in any useful form, can never be put back. From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 16 20:55 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1166" "Wed" "16" "July" "1997" "21:55:08" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "25" "Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA22736 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA22721 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-85.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-96.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.96]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA25179; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:55:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33CDA5AB.5D15@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <33CD1B34.B00A555@bsb.nutecnet.com.br> <33CD8F4A.4B0A@sunherald.infi.net> <199707170328.UAA05269@tzadkiel.efn.org> <33CDA134.51BE@sunherald.infi.net> <199707170347.UAA05328@tzadkiel.efn.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 1165 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: Steve VanDevender CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:55:08 -0700 Steve VanDevender wrote: > > Yes, but it argues against you, not for you. > > The problem for your argument is that the water cycle depends on an > external energy source, the Sun, to work. When a hydroelectric > generator extracts energy from a river, it's extracting energy that was > put there by the Sun evaporating water, which dispersed into the > atmosphere, precipitated on land, and settled back toward the ocean. > The hydroelectric generator just slows down the settling slightly and > gets a fraction of the energy put in by the Sun as a result. > > Conservation of energy implies that if energy is removed from the > vacuum, it is _removed_. If you put it all back then there's nothing > left over for you to work with. If you extract energy and turn it into > motion or photons or mass, then you can't have put it all back. ZPE, in > a very real sense, gets something from nothing. Matter and energy don't > react to produce vacuum -- the reactions always produce photons or > particles -- so the energy extracted, if it is in any useful form, can > never be put back. Why doesn't ZPE deplete? Your guess is as good as mine. Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 16 21:07 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["608" "Wed" "16" "July" "1997" "21:07:02" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "12" "Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA25612 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA25592 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (cisco-ts12-line5.uoregon.edu [128.223.150.137]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA11434; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:05:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA05397; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:07:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707170407.VAA05397@tzadkiel.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <33CDA5AB.5D15@sunherald.infi.net> References: <33CD1B34.B00A555@bsb.nutecnet.com.br> <33CD8F4A.4B0A@sunherald.infi.net> <199707170328.UAA05269@tzadkiel.efn.org> <33CDA134.51BE@sunherald.infi.net> <199707170347.UAA05328@tzadkiel.efn.org> <33CDA5AB.5D15@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.15p7 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 607 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: kyle Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:07:02 -0700 kyle writes: > Why doesn't ZPE deplete? Your guess is as good as mine. Who says it doesn't? I've never seen even the physicists who propose extracting energy from it claim that zero-point energy won't be depleted by extraction. At best, given the rather impressive energy densities quoted for it (i.e. billions of kilograms of mass equivalent per cubic centimeter of space) it would be sort of hard to notice, but if anything conservation laws are more sacred than relativity and quantum mechanics in physics. "You can't get something for nothing" is one of the most fundamental principles of physics. From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 16 21:22 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1603" "Wed" "16" "July" "1997" "22:22:15" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "38" "Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA29945 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA29935 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:22:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-85.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-84.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.84]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA24512; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:22:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33CDAC06.23A9@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <33CD1B34.B00A555@bsb.nutecnet.com.br> <33CD8F4A.4B0A@sunherald.infi.net> <199707170328.UAA05269@tzadkiel.efn.org> <33CDA134.51BE@sunherald.infi.net> <199707170347.UAA05328@tzadkiel.efn.org> <33CDA5AB.5D15@sunherald.infi.net> <199707170407.VAA05397@tzadkiel.efn.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 1602 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: Steve VanDevender CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:22:15 -0700 Steve VanDevender wrote: > > kyle writes: > > Why doesn't ZPE deplete? Your guess is as good as mine. > > Who says it doesn't? I've never seen even the physicists who propose > extracting energy from it claim that zero-point energy won't be depleted > by extraction. I don't think it does since there have been no witnessed disasters accomanying ZPE. I think that if you use ZPE, somewhere, ZPE is replenished. After all, why doesn't gravity deplete? > At best, given the rather impressive energy densities > quoted for it (i.e. billions of kilograms of mass equivalent per cubic > centimeter of space) it would be sort of hard to notice, but if anything > conservation laws are more sacred than relativity and quantum mechanics > in physics. "You can't get something for nothing" is one of the most > fundamental principles of physics. I don't think you can get something for nothing either. But if the energy is there to begin with, technically, its not something for nothing. Maybe ZPE has something to do with gravity? After you had used up ZPE, assuming it is used up, which I doubt, you could recycle and reuse the energy extracted, right? I also think that when ZPE is tapped and depleted, it creates a disturbance in spacetime, which MUST be filled, or the results could be catastrophic. Perhaps the defecit neutrinos would fill such a gap. Other Questions: (perhaps unanswerable) Where are the deficit neutrinos? What are they? What is gravity? I know the knee-jerk response is: its produced by mass. But what IS it? Why does light accelerate in a casimir cavity? Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 16 21:44 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2912" "Wed" "16" "July" "1997" "21:44:31" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "60" "Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA04969 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:44:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA04959 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (cisco-ts12-line5.uoregon.edu [128.223.150.137]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA15973; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:43:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA05506; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:44:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707170444.VAA05506@tzadkiel.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <33CDAC06.23A9@sunherald.infi.net> References: <33CD1B34.B00A555@bsb.nutecnet.com.br> <33CD8F4A.4B0A@sunherald.infi.net> <199707170328.UAA05269@tzadkiel.efn.org> <33CDA134.51BE@sunherald.infi.net> <199707170347.UAA05328@tzadkiel.efn.org> <33CDA5AB.5D15@sunherald.infi.net> <199707170407.VAA05397@tzadkiel.efn.org> <33CDAC06.23A9@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.15p7 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 2911 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: kyle Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:44:31 -0700 kyle writes: > Steve VanDevender wrote: > > kyle writes: > > > Why doesn't ZPE deplete? Your guess is as good as mine. > > Who says it doesn't? I've never seen even the physicists who propose > > extracting energy from it claim that zero-point energy won't be depleted > > by extraction. > I don't think it does since there have been no witnessed disasters > accomanying ZPE. I think that if you use ZPE, somewhere, ZPE is > replenished. After all, why doesn't gravity deplete? Kyle, I would hope after all this time you'd start learning how to build logically convincing arguments. It may be that you can't extract zero-point energy, or that phenomena we're seeing that don't have other explanations could be zero-point energy extraction disasters, or that extracting zero-point energy changes the vacuum. Without any evidence, it's hard to say which, although I tend towards the last alternative. If zero-point energy is extractable, and it doesn't produce disastrous effects, then the most likely explanation is that it's like draining from a very deep reservoir. There's a certain finite amount of energy tied up in the vacuum, and extracting it is simply converting it to mass/energy. Unrestricted extraction of zero-point energy could result in both changes to the vacuum on a large scale and the increase of the mass density of the universe, possibly even with dangerous effects if done on a large scale. Why doesn't gravity deplete? Well, why don't electric fields deplete either? Because they're conservative potential fields (conservative meaning that they observe conservation laws, not that they're philosophically stodgy). That means that moving through a closed loop in such a field produces no net change in energy. As it turns out, gravitational potential energy from gravitationally bound objects does actually leak away over time in gravity waves, albeit extremely slowly. But this is actually just conversion of the potential energy in the separation of the masses into propagating spacetime disturbances; once (over a truly astronomical time scale) the masses come together and coalesce, they still exhibit the gravitational field resulting from their combined masses. If you're dubious, look up the astrophysical observations of some massive closely-coupled binary systems that show a gradual decrease in period resulting from the gravitational radiation. > Where are the deficit neutrinos? What are they? I've never heard of them. As with the zero-point experiments, where are your references? > What is gravity? I know the knee-jerk response is: its produced by mass. > But what IS it? Curvature (change of the geometric properties) of spacetime. See Misner, Thorne, and Wheeler's _Gravitation_. > Why does light accelerate in a casimir cavity? Which experiment showed this? So far I've only heard of the Casimir effect as a theoretical possibility. From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 17 06:21 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["125" "Thu" "17" "July" "1997" "21:22:37" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" "<19970717.212238.12286.0.jimaclem@juno.com>" "8" "starship-design: ZPE generators" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id GAA08414 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:21:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA08404 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id JnD07187; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:20:38 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970717.212238.12286.0.jimaclem@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-6 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 124 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: ZPE generators Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:22:37 -0400 Kyle, What is a ZPE generator. I'm just a poor engineer and have never heard of such a thing. Thanks, jimaclem@juno.com From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 17 06:29 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["403" "Thu" "17" "July" "1997" "21:30:53" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "12" "starship-design: magnetic monopoles" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id GAA10036 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:29:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA10018 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 06:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id JqU07187; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:28:57 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970717.213053.12286.2.jimaclem@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,8-10 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 402 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: magnetic monopoles Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:30:53 -0400 Steve and Kyle, I noticed your discussion of monopoles. I'm not yet certain, but a collection of dipoles placed with the south poles inside the sphere and the north poles placed outside is just that, a collection of dipoles. A monopole should have only a single pole, regardless of where you place your sensors. A plot of the magnetic lines of force might help demonstrate this. jimaclem@juno.com From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 17 07:32 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["871" "Thu" "17" "July" "1997" "22:30:48" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "26" "starship-design: What is gravity?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id HAA20674 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA20664 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KIC07187; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:29:09 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970717.223049.14478.0.jimaclem@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-5,7,12-13,15-16,19-24 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 870 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: What is gravity? Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 22:30:48 -0400 Kyle wrote, Well, for my two cents worth, I don't know what it IS, but I think I know how to model it. I space-time is treated as if it were a compressible fluid, then the effects (at least some of them) of gravity are recreated, i.e., in the presence of a mass, space-time compresses, and a ray of light entering this region is bent, as Einstein predicted. Now, I'm NOT saying that space-time IS a compressible fluid, just that it seems to act like one. I'm still working on the real numbers for this hypothesis, and hope to have them posted here soon. P.S. I'll go out on a limb here. If this hypothesis is correct, we may be able to devise a way to manipulate space-time, maybe like the Alcubierre concept. Any thoughts? Let me know. Jim Clem jimaclem@juno.com From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 17 09:42 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["764" "Thu" "17" "July" "1997" "09:42:28" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu" nil "19" "starship-design: ZPE generators" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id JAA03713 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id JAA03676; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:42:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707171642.JAA03676@darkwing.uoregon.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <19970717.212238.12286.0.jimaclem@juno.com> References: <19970717.212238.12286.0.jimaclem@juno.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.15p6 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 763 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: jimaclem@juno.com Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: ZPE generators Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:42:28 -0700 (PDT) jimaclem@juno.com writes: > Kyle, > > What is a ZPE generator. I'm just a poor engineer and have never > heard of such a thing. > > Thanks, > jimaclem@juno.com There are some theories being floated around the physics community about vacuum not being really completely empty, but a sea of sub-particle energy fluctuations calculated to have a rather surprisingly high energy density. This energy is supposedly what virtual particle formation draws from. Kyle is subscribing to an even more radical belief that if this zero-point energy exists, it's possible to extract energy from it permanently, which I'm rather dubious about (as you might guess from my responses). I'd rather work with plausibly exotic energy-generation methods like antimatter. From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 17 11:13 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2062" "Thu" "17" "July" "1997" "12:12:48" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "47" "Re: starship-design: ZPE generators" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA10566 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:13:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA10516 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-83.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-83.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.83]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA05629; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:13:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33CE6EAF.5621@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <19970717.212238.12286.0.jimaclem@juno.com> <199707171642.JAA03676@darkwing.uoregon.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 2061 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: jimaclem@juno.com CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: ZPE generators Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:12:48 -0700 Steve VanDevender wrote: > > jimaclem@juno.com writes: > > Kyle, > > > > What is a ZPE generator. I'm just a poor engineer and have never > > heard of such a thing. > > > > Thanks, > > jimaclem@juno.com A ZPE generator is a device (a REAL device) that draws energy from a vacuum. The vacuum is actually not empty, but, as steve says, a sea of energy fluctuations. The desity of this energy is thought to be negative, and studies seem to support this. The energy can be tapped by two closely >.1nm placed conductive plates. Several people have built working devices to extract ZPE, one of which produces up to 100,000 times the energy input. Its very expirimental, but more realistic than using antimatter, which doesn't pack nearly the same punch, and costs $100 Billion per milligram. Most scientist doubt that it exists, but this is simply because it would require revision of current theories, and humans like to think they know it all. Be warned, however, there are scientists that are too far out, and will believe anything. I'm in between, a good standing point. ZPE may be replenished by special circumstances (theoretically). > There are some theories being floated around the physics community about > vacuum not being really completely empty, but a sea of sub-particle > energy fluctuations calculated to have a rather surprisingly high energy > density. This energy is supposedly what virtual particle formation > draws from. Kyle is subscribing to an even more radical belief that if > this zero-point energy exists, it's possible to extract energy from it > permanently, which I'm rather dubious about (as you might guess from my > responses). Sorry you feel this way, but ZPE has been tapped already. Heard of Hyde's machine? But most scientists don't listen to amatuers, since we don't have PhD degrees to show. > I'd rather work with plausibly exotic energy-generation > methods like antimatter. Antimatter is too expensive, where ZPE is cheap. Besides, antimatter is only 100% conversion. O/U is better. Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 17 11:29 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2218" "Thu" "17" "July" "1997" "11:29:12" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "44" "Re: starship-design: ZPE generators" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA16542 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA16489 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:29:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [198.68.17.19]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA22390; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:28:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA07411; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:29:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707171829.LAA07411@tzadkiel.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <33CE6EAF.5621@sunherald.infi.net> References: <19970717.212238.12286.0.jimaclem@juno.com> <199707171642.JAA03676@darkwing.uoregon.edu> <33CE6EAF.5621@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.15p7 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 2217 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: kyle Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: ZPE generators Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:29:12 -0700 kyle writes: > A ZPE generator is a device (a REAL device) that draws energy from a > vacuum. The vacuum is actually not empty, but, as steve says, a sea of > energy fluctuations. The desity of this energy is thought to be > negative, and studies seem to support this. The energy can be tapped by > two closely >.1nm placed conductive plates. Several people have built > working devices to extract ZPE, one of which produces up to 100,000 > times the energy input. Its very expirimental, but more realistic than > using antimatter, which doesn't pack nearly the same punch, and costs > $100 Billion per milligram. Most scientist doubt that it exists, but > this is simply because it would require revision of current theories, > and humans like to think they know it all. Be warned, however, there are > scientists that are too far out, and will believe anything. I'm in > between, a good standing point. ZPE may be replenished by special > circumstances (theoretically). Kyle, please provide references and published experiments. If it can't be independently verified, it's not science. A scientist that will believe anything is not a scientist, but a gullible fool. > Sorry you feel this way, but ZPE has been tapped already. Heard of > Hyde's machine? But most scientists don't listen to amatuers, since we > don't have PhD degrees to show. It's not a matter of whether you have a PhD or professional certification. It's whether you have independently verifiable experimental results. The truth stands up to scrutiny, and falsehood doesn't. Cold fusion and other hoaxes fell apart because nobody could duplicate the purported original results. So again, I ask, where are your references for this? > > I'd rather work with plausibly exotic energy-generation > > methods like antimatter. > > Antimatter is too expensive, where ZPE is cheap. Besides, antimatter is > only 100% conversion. O/U is better. Antimatter has a firm theoretical and experimental track record. Aside from your assertions, I've never seen any references to successful experiments to extract vacuum energy; certainly nothing involving independent verification from multiple sources. Put up or shut up, Kyle. From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 17 11:34 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2477" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "02:34:09" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "61" "Re: starship-design: ZPE generators" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA18068 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA18030 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id OuM07187; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:31:59 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970718.023409.12110.2.jimaclem@juno.com> References: <19970717.212238.12286.0.jimaclem@juno.com> <199707171642.JAA03676@darkwing.uoregon.edu> <33CE6EAF.5621@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-54,59 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2476 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: stk@sunherald.infi.net Cc: jimaclem@juno.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: ZPE generators Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:34:09 -0400 On Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:12:48 -0700 kyle writes: >Steve VanDevender wrote: >> >> jimaclem@juno.com writes: >> > Kyle, >> > >> > What is a ZPE generator. I'm just a poor engineer and have >never >> > heard of such a thing. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > jimaclem@juno.com > >A ZPE generator is a device (a REAL device) that draws energy from a >vacuum. The vacuum is actually not empty, but, as steve says, a sea of >energy fluctuations. The desity of this energy is thought to be >negative, and studies seem to support this. The energy can be tapped >by >two closely >.1nm placed conductive plates. Several people have built >working devices to extract ZPE, one of which produces up to 100,000 >times the energy input. Its very expirimental, but more realistic than >using antimatter, which doesn't pack nearly the same punch, and costs >$100 Billion per milligram. Most scientist doubt that it exists, but >this is simply because it would require revision of current theories, >and humans like to think they know it all. Be warned, however, there >are >scientists that are too far out, and will believe anything. I'm in >between, a good standing point. ZPE may be replenished by special >circumstances (theoretically). > >> There are some theories being floated around the physics community >about >> vacuum not being really completely empty, but a sea of sub-particle >> energy fluctuations calculated to have a rather surprisingly high >energy >> density. This energy is supposedly what virtual particle formation >> draws from. Kyle is subscribing to an even more radical belief that >if >> this zero-point energy exists, it's possible to extract energy from >it >> permanently, which I'm rather dubious about (as you might guess from >my >> responses). > >Sorry you feel this way, but ZPE has been tapped already. Heard of >Hyde's machine? But most scientists don't listen to amatuers, since we >don't have PhD degrees to show. > >> I'd rather work with plausibly exotic energy-generation >> methods like antimatter. > >Antimatter is too expensive, where ZPE is cheap. Besides, antimatter >is >only 100% conversion. O/U is better. Say WHAT!!!!!!!!!!???????? Even if ZPE is where matter and energy come from, there are still going to be energy losses. Send me a list of references so I can study this myself. I do agree about the price of antimatter, though, I am an engineer, I get paid to solve production problems. :) From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 17 11:34 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2705" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "02:31:47" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "66" "Re: starship-design: ZPE generators" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA18253 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA18182 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:34:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id OuL07187; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:31:59 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970718.023409.12110.1.jimaclem@juno.com> References: <19970717.212238.12286.0.jimaclem@juno.com> <199707171642.JAA03676@darkwing.uoregon.edu> <33CE6EAF.5621@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-54,60-61,64 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2704 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: stk@sunherald.infi.net Cc: jimaclem@juno.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: ZPE generators Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:31:47 -0400 On Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:12:48 -0700 kyle writes: >Steve VanDevender wrote: >> >> jimaclem@juno.com writes: >> > Kyle, >> > >> > What is a ZPE generator. I'm just a poor engineer and have >never >> > heard of such a thing. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > jimaclem@juno.com > >A ZPE generator is a device (a REAL device) that draws energy from a >vacuum. The vacuum is actually not empty, but, as steve says, a sea of >energy fluctuations. The desity of this energy is thought to be >negative, and studies seem to support this. The energy can be tapped >by >two closely >.1nm placed conductive plates. Several people have built >working devices to extract ZPE, one of which produces up to 100,000 >times the energy input. Its very expirimental, but more realistic than >using antimatter, which doesn't pack nearly the same punch, and costs >$100 Billion per milligram. Most scientist doubt that it exists, but >this is simply because it would require revision of current theories, >and humans like to think they know it all. Be warned, however, there >are >scientists that are too far out, and will believe anything. I'm in >between, a good standing point. ZPE may be replenished by special >circumstances (theoretically). > >> There are some theories being floated around the physics community >about >> vacuum not being really completely empty, but a sea of sub-particle >> energy fluctuations calculated to have a rather surprisingly high >energy >> density. This energy is supposedly what virtual particle formation >> draws from. Kyle is subscribing to an even more radical belief that >if >> this zero-point energy exists, it's possible to extract energy from >it >> permanently, which I'm rather dubious about (as you might guess from >my >> responses). > >Sorry you feel this way, but ZPE has been tapped already. Heard of >Hyde's machine? But most scientists don't listen to amatuers, since we >don't have PhD degrees to show. > >> I'd rather work with plausibly exotic energy-generation >> methods like antimatter. > >Antimatter is too expensive, where ZPE is cheap. Besides, antimatter >is >only 100% conversion. O/U is better. ???????????????????? Say WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I hate to say it, but how is it possible to get greater than 100% matter to energy conversion. Even if ZPE is where matter and energy comes from, there are bound to be entropy losses. I WOULD like to see a list of references that I can study myself, but until then, this sounds like perpetual motion. Sorry. :) P.S. I have to agree, though, that the present price of antimatter is prohibitive, but I'm an engineer, I get paid to solve production problems. :) From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 17 12:09 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["435" "Thu" "17" "July" "1997" "13:09:18" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "14" "starship-design: ZPE pages" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id MAA03788 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:09:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA03712 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-83.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-102.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.102]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA07528; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:09:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33CE7BEE.1273@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 434 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: ZPE pages Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:09:18 -0700 You wanted references? Here they are: And I have more. http://www.padrak.com/ine/index.html http://www.tyrian/IPS/MR/00000190.html http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/ http://zenergy.com/ I'm no fool, I am a scientist, and I don't just accept any idea that comes along. Perhaps "professional" scientists are to "good" to listen to us amatuers? Amatuers flew first, built phones first, TV's, etc. Listen to us more. Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 17 13:23 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["769" "Thu" "17" "July" "1997" "13:23:19" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "21" "starship-design: ZPE pages" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id NAA02978 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:23:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA02940 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:23:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [198.68.17.19]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA04234; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:22:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) id NAA07681; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:23:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707172023.NAA07681@tzadkiel.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <33CE7BEE.1273@sunherald.infi.net> References: <33CE7BEE.1273@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.15p7 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 768 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: kyle Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: ZPE pages Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:23:19 -0700 kyle writes: > You wanted references? Here they are: And I have more. > > http://www.padrak.com/ine/index.html > http://www.tyrian/IPS/MR/00000190.html > http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/ > http://zenergy.com/ > > I'm no fool, I am a scientist, and I don't just accept any idea that > comes along. Perhaps "professional" scientists are to "good" to listen > to us amatuers? Amatuers flew first, built phones first, TV's, etc. > Listen to us more. > > Kyle Mcallister As I said, if even an amateur finds the truth, it will be believed -- eventually. But it's necessary to apply skepticism to any discovery and have the patience and tenacity to put it through rigorous verification. Finding the truth isn't just a matter of listening, but testing. From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 17 14:28 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["827" "Thu" "17" "July" "1997" "23:28:58" "+0200" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "23" "starship-design: Re: What is gravity?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id OAA28332 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:28:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA28303 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:28:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-005.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0woy6c-000JinC; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:28:58 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 826 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: What is gravity? Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:28:58 +0200 (MET DST) Jim >I[f] space-time is treated as if it were a compressible fluid, then the >effects (at least some of them) of gravity are recreated, i.e., in the >presence of a mass, space-time compresses, and a ray of light entering >this region is bent, as Einstein predicted. Now, I'm NOT saying that >space-time IS a compressible fluid, just that it seems to act like one. Of course this density model is nearly the same as the curvature model. The clear difference is that curvature usually implies a 2 dimensional world, while density is usually associated with 3 dimensions. >I'm still working on the real numbers for this hypothesis, and hope to >have them posted here soon. Ah, will you be using tensors? If so, can you explain me a bit about tensors (in practical pictorial examples). I'll be in great debt... Timothy From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 17 14:29 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1232" "Thu" "17" "July" "1997" "23:28:54" "+0200" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "41" "starship-design: Re: magnetic monopoles" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id OAA28520 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:29:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA28485 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-005.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0woy6Y-000JimC; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:28:54 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1231 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: magnetic monopoles Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:28:54 +0200 (MET DST) To all, and especially Steve, Kyle and Jim, >I'm not yet certain, but a collection of dipoles placed with the south >poles inside the sphere and the north poles placed outside is just that, >a collection of dipoles. A monopole should have only a single pole, >regardless of where you place your sensors. A plot of the magnetic lines >of force might help demonstrate this. Such a configuration of dipoles still doesn't have an all North outside! If one measures carefully, one will see that between the North poles there are concentrated South (and West and East) parts. When having a magnetic dipole, you should always be able to complete a loop when drawing a field line: N-pole -> outside the magnet -> S-pole -> inside the magnet. ___ / \ | \ N +++++ \ + | + | + | + | + | + | + | + | S +++++ / | / \____/ So, as far as I know, you won't be able to build a monopole with dipoles, unless you somehow manage to break the field line (that's why I spoke about space distortion) I could imagine that near the event horizon of a black hole the lines are broken similar to the fact that electric-charge field lines are absorbed. Timothy From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 17 14:29 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1598" "Thu" "17" "July" "1997" "23:28:56" "+0200" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "38" "starship-design: Re: Aliens" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id OAA28731 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:29:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA28672 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-005.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0woy6a-000JitC; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:28:56 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1597 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Aliens Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:28:56 +0200 (MET DST) Antonio wrote: >... near sulforous vents on the sea floor - possibly >also exist _somewhere_ on Venus and/or the gas giants. If that is so, than indeed life is much more likely to exist there. A stable environment and energy source seem to be the key factors in all the places where we think microscopic live evolves. I used to think that Venus was too hot to have a usable liquid, but then again there are many liquids at a temperature of say 300C. > Gas giants present growing pressures towards their centers, to the >point where the "gas" possibly liquefies and then solidifies. Conditions >at some "altitude" might resemble the above sulfurous vents or even the >surface of Venus itself. When gas-planet was mentioned I assumed that the gas was meant to be the medium where live evolved. Indeed the likeliest place would be somewhere at the border between solid an liquid gasses. I think though that the enormous pressures will favour certain chemical reactions over others in a very unequal way and thus limit the possibilites significantly. So in the gas zone the environment is too unstable for new life to get stronger before it is killed. The liquid zone also is too unstable, unless it is near a solid environment, where it can "settle" in a "pool". The solid and liquid environments likely favour specific chemical reactions and thus limit the amount of different possibilities. ! I'm not 100% certain about high pressure favouring certain chemical reactions. Is there someone who has more knowledge about this, and who can acknowledge or disaffirm my speculations? Timothy From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 17 14:54 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1767" "Thu" "17" "July" "1997" "15:54:11" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "41" "Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id OAA08924 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:54:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA08879 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-83.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-85.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.85]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA00067; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:54:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33CEA292.C38@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 1766 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: Timothy van der Linden CC: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:54:11 -0700 Timothy van der Linden wrote: > > Antonio wrote: > > >... near sulforous vents on the sea floor - possibly > >also exist _somewhere_ on Venus and/or the gas giants. > > If that is so, than indeed life is much more likely to exist there. A stable > environment and energy source seem to be the key factors in all the places > where we think microscopic live evolves. > I used to think that Venus was too hot to have a usable liquid, but then > again there are many liquids at a temperature of say 300C. > > > Gas giants present growing pressures towards their centers, to the > >point where the "gas" possibly liquefies and then solidifies. Conditions > >at some "altitude" might resemble the above sulfurous vents or even the > >surface of Venus itself. > > When gas-planet was mentioned I assumed that the gas was meant to be the > medium where live evolved. > Indeed the likeliest place would be somewhere at the border between solid an > liquid gasses. I think though that the enormous pressures will favour > certain chemical reactions over others in a very unequal way and thus limit > the possibilites significantly. > > So in the gas zone the environment is too unstable for new life to get > stronger before it is killed. > The liquid zone also is too unstable, unless it is near a solid environment, > where it can "settle" in a "pool". > The solid and liquid environments likely favour specific chemical reactions > and thus limit the amount of different possibilities. > > ! I'm not 100% certain about high pressure favouring certain chemical reactions. > Is there someone who has more knowledge about this, and who can acknowledge > or disaffirm my speculations? Wouldn't the temperatures at the solid region be too hot for life? >1000C Kyle From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 17 19:40 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["772" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "09:26:50" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "27" "starship-design: Re: What is gravity?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA10218 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 19:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA10200 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 19:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id WvS07187; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 22:35:39 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970717.223813.8854.0.jimaclem@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-9,11-20,22-25 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 771 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: What is gravity? Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:26:50 -0400 On Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:28:58 +0200 (MET DST) TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) writes: >Of course this density model is nearly the same as the curvature >model. The >clear difference is that curvature usually implies a 2 dimensional >world, >while density is usually associated with 3 dimensions. Indeed, I think it can help to devise ways to think in 3 dimensions, since that is the reality of the situation. >>I'm still working on the real numbers for this hypothesis, and hope >to >>have them posted here soon. > >Ah, will you be using tensors? If so, can you explain me a bit about >tensors >(in practical pictorial examples). I'll be in great debt... You bet, though my understanding of tensors is not as strong as I would like, yet. Jim From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 17 19:43 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["711" "Thu" "17" "July" "1997" "22:43:34" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "22" "Re: starship-design: ZPE pages" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA10750 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 19:43:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA10732 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 19:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id WzL07187; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 22:41:07 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970717.224335.8854.1.jimaclem@juno.com> References: <33CE7BEE.1273@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-17,20 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 710 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: stk@sunherald.infi.net Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: ZPE pages Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 22:43:34 -0400 On Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:09:18 -0700 kyle writes: >You wanted references? Here they are: And I have more. > >http://www.padrak.com/ine/index.html >http://www.tyrian/IPS/MR/00000190.html >http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/ >http://zenergy.com/ > >I'm no fool, I am a scientist, and I don't just accept any idea that >comes along. Perhaps "professional" scientists are to "good" to listen >to us amatuers? Amatuers flew first, built phones first, TV's, etc. >Listen to us more. > >Kyle Mcallister > Thanks for the references, I'll get back to you on this when I have a chance to read these. Don't worry, I do listen to every point of view, but I'm steeped in an engineer's cynicism. From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 17 21:42 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2106" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "00:42:22" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "54" "Re: starship-design: antimatter fountain: popsci article" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA07988 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout19.mail.aol.com (emout19.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.45]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA07967 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA18551; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:42:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970718004220_581676747@emout19.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2105 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: bakelaar@injersey.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: antimatter fountain: popsci article Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:42:22 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/14/97 12:24:48 PM, bakelaar@injersey.com (Bakelaar) wrote: >article: > >it sounds like science fiction: a fountain of antmatter >spewing from the center of our galaxy. but that is just what >astronomers claim they have discovered, using nasa's compton >gamma ray observatory satellite. > >launched into eart orbit six years ago, the observatory >monitors the heavens for emissions of gamma rays. in april, >a research team led by astronomers at northwestern univ. >and the naval research lab. in washington announced that the >observatory had foudn gamma rays emanating from a fountain- >shaped region that appears to originate at the milky way's >center. the high energy gammy-ray emissions were measured >at 511,000 electron volts - precisely the energy produced >when positrons (the antiparticles of electrons) are >annihilated by collisions with normal matter. "its an >unmistakable signature of the annihilation" says charles >dermer, a theorist at the navy lab who is helping to >interpret the findings. > >what could be generating the positrons? on earth, positrons >are produced by the decay of certain radioactive isotopes >but are quickly destroyed when they collide. dermer and >colleague jeff skibo point out that positrons are also >produced by supernovas, explosions of massive stars. >successions of supernovas at the milky way's center could >have sent a fountain of hot gases, mixed with positrons, >shooting high above the galactic plane. mingling with the >hot gad would destroy the positrons and produce the observed >gamma rays, astronomers say. > >however, other scientists have proposed a different source for >the positrons: one or more black holes believed to exist at >the galaxy's center. > >by andrew chaikin > >so guys, what do you think of this? id like to hear >what you think... if its true or not, if they got anything >wrong... etc etc. > >ben Sounds likely. We expected to find a big blackholes in the galactic center. Mater geting sucked in and other effects can produce antimatter. Strange that its that rich a source thou. Kelly From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 17 21:43 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4418" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "00:42:30" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "117" "Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA08013 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout01.mail.aol.com (emout01.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.92]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA08000 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout01.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA20814; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:42:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970718004228_-1778104757@emout01.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 4417 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us? Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:42:30 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/15/97 10:00:24 AM, TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) wrote: >Kelly, > >>>Immune systems usually see almost every non-self organism as dangerous. I >>>wouldn't think that it doesn't matter much whether the non-self organism >>>comes from space or Earth. >>>In some cases the body even starts killing something of itself, this is >>>called an auto-immune disease. >> >>Immune systems arn't that good at detecting, much less combating, 'any' >>non-self organism. They are best at detecting and defeating things that the >>organism routinly is attacked by. Alien micro life would not be something >>were 'tuned' to fight or look for. > >As far as I know they are quite good at detecting, only finding the >"antidote" before it is too late can be a problem. However antibiotics >usually can help quite a lot. You can't use an antibiotic on alien microbes. They work by suttle disruption of celular chemistry. I.E. something that will kill them, but not us. >And even if we were not immune to alien bacteria, would we be able to spot >it? Likely there are more Earthly bacteria that kill people than Space bacteria. No way to know. Can't even know anything basic about their celular construction or chemistry. >>>>As to the microbes from space, thats a very thinly defined theory. Besides >>>>it still gets back to no signs of alien organisms alive here now. >>> >>>The latter is exactly the point I wanted to make. No apparent signs, so >>>whatever comes down, doesn't seem to spread. >> >>Or never came here, or whiped out an area to quickly to sustain itself. > >Well, that's why I didn't mention it the other discussion :) > >To get back to the point: Why would alien bacteria survive better than Earth >bacteria? Each taken out of its eco-would tend to react radically. Most plagues are from microbes, parasites, or animals that were introduced to an alien species or ecosystem. So I expect earths microbes or vermine would be as deadly there as alien stuff would be here. Course the microbes are more hardy, so they should survive better. >>>Expecting it, has shown to be completely different from knowing it. >>>Everyone knows that it is quite likely that something terrible can be >>>expected to happen to them during their lifetime. Yet many get badly hurt >>>psychologically when it actually happens. >>>Primordial microbes from Mars hardly compare to beings that have technology >>>that looks like magic. >> >>Still its unlikely to make us all run home and hide under the bed. It never >>did before when we encountered alien (foreign) cultures with magical >>technologies and alien forms. I can't see we'ld be that much less able to >>handel the same thing now or in the future? > >Which "cultures with magical technology" do you mean. I can't recall when WE >encountered them before. True other cultures did, but I thought they usually >believed in magic. We as in humans. Obviously the current dominent cultures are to recent. But the Japanise in the late 1800's to the abos walking out of the jungle today give plenty of data sources. >>>I didn't mean we were a threath to the aliens. If they start spreading >>>technology, some nations may use it in a different way than intended, which >>>may change world power in sudden ways. (Eg. Give Saddam Hoessein a ZPE bomb, >>>which he nicely puts somewhere in New York.) >> >>My point was the aliens wouldn't care about those effects. If we can't play >>nice with the new toys, thats our problem. > >Why then contact us and give us the data? Just for the fun to see what happens? What else do they have to trade? Besiodes, exploreres usually have to give gifts to the primatives. Helps prevent becoming dinner. ;) Seriously thou. To them it would be the equivalent of tossing out a handfull of beeds. >>>>If Aliens came all this way, we'ld be the major area of interest on this >>>>rock. >>> >>>True, but dropping in as anthropologists would certainly destroy what they >>>where looking for. Only if they are psychologists, they would enjoy playing >>>games with us. >> >>Anthropologists would tend to disagree. > >What good is destroying your test subject if your only example? > >Tim What good is exploring if you never take a look at anything? If you don't interact with the natives, you might as well stay home. Kelly From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 18 05:57 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["461" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "14:58:05" "+0200" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "20" "starship-design: Re: What is gravity?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id FAA02025 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 05:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id FAA02006 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 05:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-008.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wpCbl-000GsOC; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:58:05 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 460 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: What is gravity? Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:58:05 +0200 (MET DST) Jim, You wrote: >Indeed, I think it [the model] can help to devise ways to think in >3 dimensions, since that is the reality of the situation. Well, reality is more like 4 dimensions... >>Ah, will you be using tensors? If so, can you explain me a bit about >>tensors (in practical pictorial examples). I'll be in great debt... > >You bet, though my understanding of tensors is not as strong as I would >like, yet. I'm curious for your results. Timothy From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 18 05:58 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4108" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "14:57:59" "+0200" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "95" "starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id FAA02083 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 05:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id FAA02071 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 05:58:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-008.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wpCbf-000GsKC; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:57:59 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 4107 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us? Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:57:59 +0200 (MET DST) Kelly, >>As far as I know they are quite good at detecting, only finding the >>"antidote" before it is too late can be a problem. However antibiotics >>usually can help quite a lot. > >You can't use an antibiotic on alien microbes. They work by suttle >disruption of celular chemistry. I.E. something that will kill them, but not >us. Well, these chemicals make certain important biological chemical reactions impossible. Unless the alien bacteria use very different ways to stay alive, they may not be influenced. This is possible, but likely means that the bacteria cannot survive in the climate of our body (which provides only chemicals that are in a specific biological cycle that needs the climate of our body). >>And even if we were not immune to alien bacteria, would we be able to spot >>it? Likely there are more Earthly bacteria that kill people than Space >>bacteria. > >No way to know. Can't even know anything basic about their celular >construction or chemistry. Well of course we can't be sure about their chemistry, but in my discussions I assumed that they where based on DNA like we. If not, than all bets (from me) are off. I know too little about the possible chemical reaction-cycles in other systems. >>Well, that's why I didn't mention it the other discussion :) >> >>To get back to the point: Why would alien bacteria survive better than Earth >>bacteria? > >Each taken out of its eco-would tend to react radically. Yes.. they radically die. We never hear about the millions of strange bacteria that don't survive their visit to local cousins. Only the few that are stronger will leave a noticable fingerprint. It's hard to make conclusions when you've seen only one side of the story. I'd think that one could easely research this question. Just dump a few strange bacteria in a huge colony of "normal" bacteria and see what happens. If the strange bacteria turn out to survive all the time, then indeed you are right, but I strongly doubt that. My guess is that in most of the cases the local bacteria will survive over the foreign bacteria. The locals are usually much better adapted to the local climate (=temperature, chemicals, enemies, friends). I bet that only a few foreign bacteria will have a sufficiently high evolution that they can prosper in a new environment. >So I expect earths microbes or vermine would be as deadly >there as alien stuff would be here. Course the microbes are more hardy, so >they should survive better. Huh, this seems to be a paradox. If our bacteria kill theirs, than that would mean our bacteria are stronger. So then, how can their bacteria kill ours when they meet here? >>Which "cultures with magical technology" do you mean. I can't recall when WE >>encountered them before. True other cultures did, but I thought they usually >>believed in magic. > >We as in humans. Obviously the current dominent cultures are to recent. >But the Japanise in the late 1800's to the abos walking out of the jungle >today give plenty of data sources. Hmmm, didn't most of them believe in supernatural rather than in facts? >>Why then contact us and give us the data? Just for the fun to see what >>happens? > >What else do they have to trade? Besiodes, exploreres usually have to give >gifts to the primatives. Helps prevent becoming dinner. ;) > >Seriously thou. To them it would be the equivalent of tossing out a handfull >of beeds. Kelly, I see where this discussion is going. We've dozens of these in our private letters. We're likely not to agree about this question soon, our "fundamentals" (=my ideals and your reality) are still far apart (though the do come closer). >>What good is destroying your test subject if your only example? > >What good is exploring if you never take a look at anything? If you don't >interact with the natives, you might as well stay home. Oh, you may interact with them, but they first have to grow to the fact that they are not alone out there. Like I wrote you before, one can't force people into new developments. Timothy From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 18 05:58 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["663" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "14:58:02" "+0200" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "19" "starship-design: Sigh" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id FAA02176 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 05:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id FAA02157 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 05:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-008.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wpCbi-000GsNC; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:58:02 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 662 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Sigh Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:58:02 +0200 (MET DST) Hello, I know I've been complaining that I didn't get some letters a few weeks ago. Now I'm complaining that I get a lot of my letters in duplicate. The duplicate letters are the ones that are a reply to MY letter. I quite sure this is because several of you use the Reply-to-ALL button. SD always includes two addresses (the one of the author and the one of SD) and when using that nice gleaming button, you'll sent two letters at once. Please, take care when using that button and reply just to SD. It really gets annoying to start reading and discover that it is once again a duplicate. Thanks, Timothy P.S. I'm quite sure that I'm not the only victim From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 18 05:59 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["464" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "14:58:03" "+0200" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "16" "starship-design: Re: Aliens" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id FAA02249 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 05:59:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id FAA02228 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 05:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-008.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wpCbj-000GsMC; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:58:03 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 463 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Aliens Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:58:03 +0200 (MET DST) Kyle replied to me: >>! I'm not 100% certain about high pressure favouring certain chemical >> reactions. >> Is there someone who has more knowledge about this, and who can acknowledge >> or disaffirm my speculations? > >Wouldn't the temperatures at the solid region be too hot for life? Yes, that too. I guess "too hot" is just another terminology for "favour other chemical reactions" or even "favour physical reactions over chemical reactions". Timothy From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 18 06:16 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1860" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "09:17:48" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "57" "starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id GAA05446 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:16:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA05427 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id JiX04793; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:15:19 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970718.091752.9150.1.jimaclem@juno.com> References: <970718004228_-1778104757@emout01.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-46,53-55 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1859 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: KellySt@aol.com Cc: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us? Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:17:48 -0400 On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:42:30 -0400 (EDT) KellySt@aol.com writes: > >In a message dated 7/15/97 10:00:24 AM, TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl >(Timothy >van der Linden) wrote: > >>Kelly, >> >>>>Immune systems usually see almost every non-self organism as >dangerous. I >>>>wouldn't think that it doesn't matter much whether the non-self >organism >>>>comes from space or Earth. >>>>In some cases the body even starts killing something of itself, >this is >>>>called an auto-immune disease. >>> >>>Immune systems arn't that good at detecting, much less combating, >'any' >>>non-self organism. They are best at detecting and defeating things >that >the >>>organism routinly is attacked by. Alien micro life would not be >something >>>were 'tuned' to fight or look for. >> >>As far as I know they are quite good at detecting, only finding the >>"antidote" before it is too late can be a problem. However >antibiotics >>usually can help quite a lot. > >You can't use an antibiotic on alien microbes. They work by suttle >disruption of celular chemistry. I.E. something that will kill them, >but not >us. > >>And even if we were not immune to alien bacteria, would we be able to >spot >>it? Likely there are more Earthly bacteria that kill people than >Space >bacteria. > >No way to know. Can't even know anything basic about their celular >construction or chemistry. > Just a thought to consider folks. All living organisms on this planet, including viruses have DNA and RNA constructed from the same four proteins, adenine, cytosine, guanine and tyrosine. (And I do mean ALL life forms on this planet, from viruses to trees to us). The chances that an alien microbe, or anything else, would use these same proteins seem rather small, thus rendering them and us relatively harmless to each other since we cant read each other's cellular codes. Jim From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 18 06:16 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2442" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "09:04:45" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "63" "Re: starship-design: antimatter fountain: popsci article" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id GAA05464 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:16:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA05445 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:16:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id JiW04793; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:15:19 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970718.091752.9150.0.jimaclem@juno.com> References: <970718004220_581676747@emout19.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-58,61 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2441 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: KellySt@aol.com Cc: bakelaar@injersey.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: antimatter fountain: popsci article Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:04:45 -0400 On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:42:22 -0400 (EDT) KellySt@aol.com writes: > >In a message dated 7/14/97 12:24:48 PM, bakelaar@injersey.com >(Bakelaar) >wrote: > >>article: >> >>it sounds like science fiction: a fountain of antmatter >>spewing from the center of our galaxy. but that is just what >>astronomers claim they have discovered, using nasa's compton >>gamma ray observatory satellite. >> >>launched into eart orbit six years ago, the observatory >>monitors the heavens for emissions of gamma rays. in april, >>a research team led by astronomers at northwestern univ. >>and the naval research lab. in washington announced that the >>observatory had foudn gamma rays emanating from a fountain- >>shaped region that appears to originate at the milky way's >>center. the high energy gammy-ray emissions were measured >>at 511,000 electron volts - precisely the energy produced >>when positrons (the antiparticles of electrons) are >>annihilated by collisions with normal matter. "its an >>unmistakable signature of the annihilation" says charles >>dermer, a theorist at the navy lab who is helping to >>interpret the findings. >> >>what could be generating the positrons? on earth, positrons >>are produced by the decay of certain radioactive isotopes >>but are quickly destroyed when they collide. dermer and >>colleague jeff skibo point out that positrons are also >>produced by supernovas, explosions of massive stars. >>successions of supernovas at the milky way's center could >>have sent a fountain of hot gases, mixed with positrons, >>shooting high above the galactic plane. mingling with the >>hot gad would destroy the positrons and produce the observed >>gamma rays, astronomers say. >> >>however, other scientists have proposed a different source for >>the positrons: one or more black holes believed to exist at >>the galaxy's center. >> >>by andrew chaikin >> >>so guys, what do you think of this? id like to hear >>what you think... if its true or not, if they got anything >>wrong... etc etc. >> >>ben > >Sounds likely. We expected to find a big blackholes in the galactic >center. > Mater geting sucked in and other effects can produce antimatter. >Strange >that its that rich a source thou. > >Kelly > Fascinating. This raises my hopes for finding a simple, relatively inexpensive way to generate antimatter for our own use. Perhaps nuclear reactions in the presence of an artificial hypermass? HMMMM!! :) From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 18 06:23 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["389" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "09:25:11" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "19" "starship-design: Re: What is gravity?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id GAA06624 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA06572 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:23:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id JkN04793; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:22:30 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970718.092511.9150.3.jimaclem@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-17 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 388 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: What is gravity? Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:25:11 -0400 On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:58:05 +0200 (MET DST) TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) writes: >Jim, > >You wrote: > >>Indeed, I think it [the model] can help to devise ways to think in >>3 dimensions, since that is the reality of the situation. > >Well, reality is more like 4 dimensions... > Hmm, your right about that, I may have to revise my thinking on this. thanks Jim From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 18 06:23 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["899" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "09:23:04" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "31" "Re: starship-design: Sigh" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id GAA06828 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:23:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA06808 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id JkM04793; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:22:29 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970718.092511.9150.2.jimaclem@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-27,29 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 898 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Sigh Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:23:04 -0400 On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:58:02 +0200 (MET DST) TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) writes: >Hello, > >I know I've been complaining that I didn't get some letters a few >weeks ago. >Now I'm complaining that I get a lot of my letters in duplicate. > >The duplicate letters are the ones that are a reply to MY letter. I >quite >sure this is because several of you use the Reply-to-ALL button. SD >always >includes two addresses (the one of the author and the one of SD) and >when >using that nice gleaming button, you'll sent two letters at once. > >Please, take care when using that button and reply just to SD. It >really >gets annoying to start reading and discover that it is once again a >duplicate. > >Thanks, Timothy > > >P.S. I'm quite sure that I'm not the only victim > > Yep, I have discovered this also. Sorry for the duplicates, I will try to improve this situation. From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 18 07:54 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1174" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "08:54:19" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "25" "Re: starship-design: Aliens" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id HAA23363 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 07:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA23352 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 07:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-106.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-106.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.106]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA17538 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:54:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33CF91AA.548B@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <970718004150_-789710390@emout12.mail.aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 1173 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Aliens Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:54:19 -0700 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > > Life in a gas giant is possible, but it would have to survive drifting in the > updrafts and stuff. I'ld guess technology would be pretty much a no go. Actually, Timothy showed me that technology wouldn't be much of a problem (using materials in atmosphere, dead bodies broken down for materials, etc.) Its my guess that spacetravel (probably between planet and moons) would be developed early, with other tech falling below, but not impossible. After all, flight would have already been established. Spacetravel to nearby moons would provide other resources that were scarce in the jovian planets atmosphere. > > The moons around gas giants don't have to be earth sized. As a mater of fact > the two likelyest areas in our solar system for life are Titan and Europa > The later having liquid water oceans, the former very complex organic soup. > True. I was thinking of earth-like life. The fact of the matter is, life is probably very diverse and of very wide variety. Does anyone have any ideas on Silicon, Boron, or others as possible base chemicals for life? Perhaps on freezing planets ammonia could replace water. Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 18 08:00 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["310" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "09:00:39" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "8" "Re: starship-design: antimatter fountain: popsci article" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA25206 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:00:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA25187 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-106.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-106.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.106]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA25595 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:00:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33CF9327.B93@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <970718004220_581676747@emout19.mail.aol.com> <19970718.091752.9150.0.jimaclem@juno.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 309 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: antimatter fountain: popsci article Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:00:39 -0700 jimaclem@juno.com wrote: > > Fascinating. This raises my hopes for finding a simple, relatively > inexpensive way to generate antimatter for our own use. Perhaps nuclear > reactions in the presence of an artificial hypermass? HMMMM!! :) What is an artificial hypermass? How do you propose making them? From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 18 09:03 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["645" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "18:03:52" "+0200" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "19" "starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id JAA13305 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA13281 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:03:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-008.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wpFVY-000H0wC; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:03:52 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 644 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us? Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:03:52 +0200 (MET DST) Jim wrote: >Just a thought to consider folks. All living organisms on this planet, >including viruses have DNA and RNA constructed from the same four >proteins, adenine, cytosine, guanine and tyrosine. (And I do mean ALL >life forms on this planet, from viruses to trees to us). The chances >that an alien microbe, or anything else, would use these same proteins >seem rather small, What other building blocks do you suggest? (trick question :) >thus rendering them and us relatively harmless to each >other since we cant read each other's cellular codes. Well if they start using our atoms, then that can be a serious threat. Timothy From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 18 09:05 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1133" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "12:05:13" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" "<19970718.120636.4382.4.jimaclem@juno.com>" "27" "Re: starship-design: antimatter fountain: popsci article" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id JAA13734 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:05:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA13715 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id MmH04793; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:03:57 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970718.120636.4382.4.jimaclem@juno.com> References: <970718004220_581676747@emout19.mail.aol.com> <19970718.091752.9150.0.jimaclem@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-10,21-25 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1132 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: antimatter fountain: popsci article Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:05:13 -0400 On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:00:39 -0700 kyle writes: >jimaclem@juno.com wrote: >> >> Fascinating. This raises my hopes for finding a simple, relatively >> inexpensive way to generate antimatter for our own use. Perhaps >nuclear >> reactions in the presence of an artificial hyper mass? HMMMM!! :) > >What is an artificial hyper mass? How do you propose making them? > Well, here's the short of it. It appears that a magnetic field of sufficient field density might act like a mass. By constructing a series of magnetic, probably superconducting, arrayed as to produce a set of interference nodes, one of constructive interference, and others of destructive interference, with the constructive node contained within the destructive nodes, for shielding (for lack of a better term), and operating at a resonant frequency, (I don't know what yet), a micro sized, artificial hyper mass might be made. This concept might also prove able to generate sufficient field strengths to contain large masses of antimatter, as well as the old science fiction idea of "force fields". Tell me what you think. Jim From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 18 09:15 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1209" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "10:14:44" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "26" "Re: starship-design: antimatter fountain: popsci article" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id JAA17162 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA17146 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:14:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-106.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-97.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.97]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA12233 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:14:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33CFA483.71A3@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <970718004220_581676747@emout19.mail.aol.com> <19970718.091752.9150.0.jimaclem@juno.com> <19970718.120636.4382.4.jimaclem@juno.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 1208 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: antimatter fountain: popsci article Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:14:44 -0700 jimaclem@juno.com wrote: > > > Well, here's the short of it. It appears that a magnetic field of > sufficient field density might act like a mass. By constructing a series > of magnetic, probably superconducting, arrayed as to produce a set of > interference nodes, one of constructive interference, and others of > destructive interference, with the constructive node contained within the > destructive nodes, for shielding (for lack of a better term), and > operating at a resonant frequency, (I don't know what yet), a micro > sized, artificial hyper mass might be made. This concept might also > prove able to generate sufficient field strengths to contain large masses > of antimatter, as well as the old science fiction idea of "force fields". > > > Tell me what you think. Ah, I see now. I had similar ideas, but everyone kept telling me they were impossible. I think your idea would work, and I am already beginning to work with such things. Be VERY careful with devices like that if you try them, since a hypermass of that small size and ultrahigh mass, could theoretically become a Micro black hole. That could be great for energy/propulsion, but very dangerous. Good idea! Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 18 09:56 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2886" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "18:47:05" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "69" "Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id JAA02999 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.40]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA02893 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:56:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id SAA04710; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:05 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707181647.SAA04710@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2885 From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us? Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:05 +0200 (MET DST) > From: jimaclem@juno.com > > Just a thought to consider folks. All living organisms on this planet, > including viruses have DNA and RNA constructed from the same four > proteins, > Correction. The components listed below are not proteins, but base components of nucleotides that are segments of DNA and RNA. They code for sequences of amino acids that finally constitute proteins. > adenine, cytosine, guanine and tyrosine. > Correction. In DNA occur: adenine, cytosine, guanine, and thymine; in RNA occur: adenine, cytosine, guanine, and uracil. Tyrosine is an amino acid and hence is a component of proteins. > (And I do mean ALL > life forms on this planet, from viruses to trees to us). The chances > that an alien microbe, or anything else, would use these same proteins > seem rather small, thus rendering them and us relatively harmless to each > other since we cant read each other's cellular codes. > The harm from microbes does not come from reading our cellular codes. The two main sorces of harm are: - eating vital components of our bodies (e.g., cellular membranes, cellular proteins), hence disrupting their functioning; - releasing waste substances that have toxic (disrupting) effects on biochemical pathways in our cells. Both types of harm can be inflicted by alien microbes, if only they are able to survive in the environment of our organisms, which requires: - being resistant to disruptive (toxic, immune-action) influences from substances and enzymes in our cells, - being able to "eat" (metabolize) substances (e.g., proteins) occuring within our bodies. For the alien bacteria to be able to do that, it does not have to have even remotely similar biochemistry to ours, not speaking about the same genetic code... E.g., microbes living on oceanic vents metabolize and thrive on inorganic substances (mostly toxic to us humans), which substances have quite different composition and chemistry than the biochemistry of the microbe bodies. Hence, little can be said IN GENERAL about possible effects of alien microbes on our planet unless SOMETHING more specific is known about their (bio)chemistry. However, from the general knowledge about requirements of very precise tuning of two chemistries in order to made them immune to each other influences follows that it is very improbable for them NOT to interact chemically. And such interaction is most probable to DISRUPT biochemical workings in BOTH sides. Hence, the most probable effect would be that we and aliens are MUTUALLY TOXIC, hence the one with less numbers of organisms within the contact area will perish, possibly doing before that considerable damage to the other (remember "War of the Worlds"...). With full clash of comparatively similar number of organisms, BOTH sides may perish (or be significantly damaged, beyond repair of their original environment). -- Zenon From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 18 10:04 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["838" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "13:06:24" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "26" "Re: starship-design: antimatter fountain: popsci article" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id KAA06239 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA06226 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id NGZ04793; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:04:02 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970718.130624.3294.0.jimaclem@juno.com> References: <970718004220_581676747@emout19.mail.aol.com> <19970718.091752.9150.0.jimaclem@juno.com> <19970718.120636.4382.4.jimaclem@juno.com> <33CFA483.71A3@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-19,21-24 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 837 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: antimatter fountain: popsci article Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:06:24 -0400 On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:14:44 -0700 kyle writes: >jimaclem@juno.com wrote: >> >> >> Well, here's the short of it. It appears that a magnetic field of >> sufficient field density might act like a mass. > >Ah, I see now. I had similar ideas, but everyone kept telling me they >were impossible. I think your idea would work, and I am already >beginning to work with such things. Be VERY careful with devices like >that if you try them, since a hypermass of that small size and >ultrahigh >mass, could theoretically become a Micro black hole. That could be >great >for energy/propulsion, but very dangerous. Good idea! > >Kyle Mcallister > Well, I don't know whether it can work or not yet, my numbers aren't all worked out yet. (I know, I keep saying that!). Everyone will get them as soon as I do. Jim Clem From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 18 10:07 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1546" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "10:07:17" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "28" "Re: starship-design: antimatter fountain: popsci article" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id KAA07340 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA07322 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:07:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [198.68.17.19]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA29484 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) id KAA10571; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:07:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707181707.KAA10571@tzadkiel.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <19970718.120636.4382.4.jimaclem@juno.com> References: <970718004220_581676747@emout19.mail.aol.com> <19970718.091752.9150.0.jimaclem@juno.com> <19970718.120636.4382.4.jimaclem@juno.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.15p7 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 1545 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: antimatter fountain: popsci article Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:07:17 -0700 jimaclem@juno.com writes: > Well, here's the short of it. It appears that a magnetic field of > sufficient field density might act like a mass. By constructing a series > of magnetic, probably superconducting, arrayed as to produce a set of > interference nodes, one of constructive interference, and others of > destructive interference, with the constructive node contained within the > destructive nodes, for shielding (for lack of a better term), and > operating at a resonant frequency, (I don't know what yet), a micro > sized, artificial hyper mass might be made. This concept might also > prove able to generate sufficient field strengths to contain large masses > of antimatter, as well as the old science fiction idea of "force fields". > > Tell me what you think. My take is that it would be much more efficient to just use electrically-charged or magnetic antimatter and conventional electric or magnetic field generation methods. Equivalency of mass and energy cuts both ways. While an electromagnetic field can have mass, the mass can be no more than the energy in the field. So creating a field dense enough to have a high mass means converting at least that much mass into energy. In the case of trying to do this with a magnetic field, you would also be limited by the requirement that a magnetic field is produced by moving electric charge (unless Kyle can build us a lot of miniature monopoles :-). If these field fluctuate, as you describe, then your device would also start radiating photons like mad. From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 18 10:17 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3151" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "13:17:58" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "81" "starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id KAA11943 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA11930 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id NLT04793; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:15:34 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970718.131758.3294.1.jimaclem@juno.com> References: <199707181647.SAA04710@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-75,77-79 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 3150 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us? Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:17:58 -0400 On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:47:05 +0200 (MET DST) Zenon Kulpa writes: >> From: jimaclem@juno.com >> >> Just a thought to consider folks. All living organisms on this >planet, >> including viruses have DNA and RNA constructed from the same four >> proteins, >> >Correction. >The components listed below are not proteins, but base >components of nucleotides that are segments of DNA and RNA. >They code for sequences of amino acids that finally >constitute proteins. > >> adenine, cytosine, guanine and tyrosine. >> >Correction. >In DNA occur: adenine, cytosine, guanine, and thymine; >in RNA occur: adenine, cytosine, guanine, and uracil. >Tyrosine is an amino acid and hence is a component of proteins. > >> (And I do mean ALL >> life forms on this planet, from viruses to trees to us). The >chances >> that an alien microbe, or anything else, would use these same >proteins >> seem rather small, thus rendering them and us relatively harmless to >each >> other since we cant read each other's cellular codes. >> >The harm from microbes does not come from reading our >cellular codes. The two main sorces of harm are: >- eating vital components of our bodies (e.g., cellular > membranes, cellular proteins), hence disrupting > their functioning; >- releasing waste substances that have toxic (disrupting) effects > on biochemical pathways in our cells. > >Both types of harm can be inflicted by alien microbes, if only >they are able to survive in the environment of our organisms, >which requires: >- being resistant to disruptive (toxic, immune-action) > influences from substances and enzymes in our cells, >- being able to "eat" (metabolize) substances (e.g., proteins) > occuring within our bodies. >For the alien bacteria to be able to do that, it does not >have to have even remotely similar biochemistry to ours, >not speaking about the same genetic code... >E.g., microbes living on oceanic vents metabolize >and thrive on inorganic substances (mostly toxic to us humans), >which substances have quite different composition and chemistry >than the biochemistry of the microbe bodies. > >Hence, little can be said IN GENERAL about possible >effects of alien microbes on our planet unless SOMETHING >more specific is known about their (bio)chemistry. > >However, from the general knowledge about requirements >of very precise tuning of two chemistries in order to made >them immune to each other influences follows that it is very >improbable for them NOT to interact chemically. >And such interaction is most probable to DISRUPT >biochemical workings in BOTH sides. Hence, the most >probable effect would be that we and aliens are >MUTUALLY TOXIC, hence the one with less numbers >of organisms within the contact area will perish, >possibly doing before that considerable damage to the other >(remember "War of the Worlds"...). >With full clash of comparatively similar number of organisms, >BOTH sides may perish (or be significantly damaged, beyond >repair of their original environment). > >-- Zenon > OOPS! Okay, I sit corrected, looks like my biology slipped. Thanks for the correction. Jim From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 18 10:22 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["912" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "13:24:32" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "26" "Re: starship-design: antimatter fountain: popsci article" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id KAA13324 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA13310 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:22:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id NOB04793; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:21:52 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970718.132433.3294.2.jimaclem@juno.com> References: <970718004220_581676747@emout19.mail.aol.com> <199707181707.KAA10571@tzadkiel.efn.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-24 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 911 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: antimatter fountain: popsci article Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:24:32 -0400 On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:07:17 -0700 Steve VanDevender writes: > >My take is that it would be much more efficient to just use >electrically-charged or magnetic antimatter and conventional electric >or >magnetic field generation methods. > >Equivalency of mass and energy cuts both ways. While an >electromagnetic >field can have mass, the mass can be no more than the energy in the >field. So creating a field dense enough to have a high mass means >converting at least that much mass into energy. In the case of trying >to do this with a magnetic field, you would also be limited by the >requirement that a magnetic field is produced by moving electric >charge >(unless Kyle can build us a lot of miniature monopoles :-). If these >field fluctuate, as you describe, then your device would also start >radiating photons like mad. > Hmm, good point on the matter energy equivalency. Jim From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 18 11:48 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1322" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "14:48:47" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "24" "starship-design: New discussion" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA15604 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA15591 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:47:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id OpU04793; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:46:36 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970718.144848.3270.0.jimaclem@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,20-22 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1321 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: New discussion Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:48:47 -0400 Okay, Since my wild-haired ideas have been thoroughly picked at, I'll go to another subject, power for the Argosey, M.A.R.S. concepts. It is stated in those documents that power on the order of 10^18 watts, or 10^15 kilowatts will be required to drive a heavy sail-craft. Here's an idea for getting that energy. If you note the document on carbonaceous chondrite asteroids, you will find that those appear to have a silicate content of some 83 %. If we mine these and use this material to build solar panels, LARGE panels, and place them orbiting the sun at about the orbit of Venus, we can get approximately 1 kilowatt for 3 m^2 of panel, assuming a final conversion rate of 10%. Thus one square kilometer of panel will generate approximately 3 * 10^5 kilowatts. Placing these at the distance of Mercury will generate some 9 * 10^5 kilowatts. Lets assume that efficiency improvements will allow this to approximately double, giving some 2 * 10^6 kilowatts. 10^15 kilowatts now can be produced with some 1,000,000,000 square kilometers of panels, orbiting at the same distance as Mercury. (Yep, those numbers seem to be right). This gives a disk some 36,000 kilometers in diameter!!!!! Just trying to start a dialog on this problem, as this seems the best and quickest way to get probes out there. Jim Clem From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 18 12:55 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2262" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "21:54:05" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "65" "Re: starship-design: ZPE pages" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id MAA08440 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:55:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.40]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA08419 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:55:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id VAA04879; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 21:54:05 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707181954.VAA04879@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2261 From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: starship-design: ZPE pages Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 21:54:05 +0200 (MET DST) I have looked at the URLs you gave, and here goes my opinion. > From: kyle > > You wanted references? Here they are: And I have more. > > http://www.tyrian/IPS/MR/00000190.html > Should be: http://www.tyrian.com/IPS/MR/00000190.html Contains a bibliographic entry only: Puthoff, H. E. Source of Vacuum Electromagnetic Zero-Point Energy Vol. 44, N.5, p.4857-4862 Physical Review A --Nov 1,1989 >From the title it seems to be a speculation as to the possible physics behind ZPE. Certainly does not signify near possibility to construct and use ZPE generators. If I am mistaken, please scan and send us (the relevant fragments of) the text of that paper. > http://www.padrak.com/ine/index.html > http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/ > http://zenergy.com/ > Sorry, all these sites display very marked features of pseudoscience. Extraordinary claims of simple devices generating kilowatts of "free energy" but none of them repeatable by others than their designers. Although one cannot dismiss altogether that some of these ideas might one time prove to be viable (though I personally doubt it), one certainly cannot claim that we have already, or will have in near future, ready-to-use "free energy" devices. Show me either REPEATABLE experiments with sound physical/theoretical explanations why they work, or a company selling with profit the energy from their "free energy" plant. Then I will give the matter a second chance. As yet, I see there only unsubstantiated claims and a lot of outcry about "conspiracy" of scientists and governments to suppress the activity of "free energists"... > I'm no fool, I am a scientist, and I don't just accept any idea that > comes along. Perhaps "professional" scientists are to "good" to listen > to us amatuers? Amatuers flew first, built phones first, TV's, etc. > Listen to us more. > I will listen when they deliver. Personally, I think you waste your time being too excited and preoccupied by unsubstantiated claims of pseudoscientists. You would made better use of your enthusiasm and intelligence learning some more hard science (though it is sometimes hard on gray matter, I know... ;-). It is for your decision, though. With best & friendly wishes -- Zenon From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 18 13:13 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2672" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "16:09:26" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "79" "Re: starship-design: ZPE pages" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id NAA14825 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA14804 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:13:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id QQF04793; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:07:11 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970718.160926.4334.0.jimaclem@juno.com> References: <199707181954.VAA04879@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-70,73-77 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2671 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: ZPE pages Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:09:26 -0400 On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 21:54:05 +0200 (MET DST) Zenon Kulpa writes: >I have looked at the URLs you gave, and here goes my opinion. > >> From: kyle >> >> You wanted references? Here they are: And I have more. >> >> http://www.tyrian/IPS/MR/00000190.html >> >Should be: http://www.tyrian.com/IPS/MR/00000190.html >Contains a bibliographic entry only: > >Puthoff, H. E. > Source of Vacuum Electromagnetic Zero-Point Energy > Vol. 44, N.5, p.4857-4862 > Physical Review A --Nov 1,1989 > >>From the title it seems to be a speculation as to the possible >physics behind ZPE. Certainly does not signify near possibility >to construct and use ZPE generators. >If I am mistaken, please scan and send us (the relevant fragments of) >the text of that paper. > > >> http://www.padrak.com/ine/index.html >> http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/ >> http://zenergy.com/ >> >Sorry, all these sites display very marked features of >pseudoscience. Extraordinary claims of simple >devices generating kilowatts of "free energy" but >none of them repeatable by others than their designers. >Although one cannot dismiss altogether that some >of these ideas might one time prove to be viable >(though I personally doubt it), one certainly cannot >claim that we have already, or will have in near future, >ready-to-use "free energy" devices. >Show me either REPEATABLE experiments with sound >physical/theoretical explanations why they work, >or a company selling with profit the energy from >their "free energy" plant. >Then I will give the matter a second chance. >As yet, I see there only unsubstantiated claims >and a lot of outcry about "conspiracy" of scientists and >governments to suppress the activity of "free energists"... > > >> I'm no fool, I am a scientist, and I don't just accept any idea that >> comes along. Perhaps "professional" scientists are to "good" to >listen >> to us amatuers? Amatuers flew first, built phones first, TV's, etc. >> Listen to us more. >> >I will listen when they deliver. > >Personally, I think you waste your time being too excited >and preoccupied by unsubstantiated claims of pseudoscientists. >You would made better use of your enthusiasm and intelligence >learning some more hard science (though it is sometimes hard on >gray matter, I know... ;-). > >It is for your decision, though. > >With best & friendly wishes > >-- Zenon > I fear I have to agree, though I don't automatically discount anything new and unusual, the lack of repeatability appears to be a real problem. Lets try to move on with known sources, and see where we go. Also with best and friendly wishes Jim From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 18 14:44 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1438" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "15:44:32" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "31" "starship-design: PseudoScience?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id OAA20793 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA20758 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:44:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-85.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-85.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.85]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA08008 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 17:44:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33CFF1CF.2D0@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 1437 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: PseudoScience? Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:44:32 -0700 I did not say I believed everything in those web pages. Some of these so called "Contactees" are about the weirdest people around. I'm currently having to contend with two groups: A: So called "pseudoscientists", who believe every crazy idea that comes along B: So called "hard scientists", who refuse to listen to facts that are unusual or hard to accept. Both groups are wrong. We need to have conclusive proof of theory before accepting it, but the scientific community needs to listen to new ideas and try them. I really don't care if it violates physics, as several things have before, and we use them today. The scientific community has become hotheaded in thinking we know almost everything there is to know. We don't know 1/1000th of what we think we know. I suppose this is human nature. I wonder why no one is cut down when bringing in a concept like "cellular universe" or Lorentz contraction, (neither of which has been proven, which violates everything said here), but when I bring up a concept, I'm instantly shot down with a barrage of messages whose basic line is: don't bring up something you can't prove. If you want some example of commonly accepted science that has never been proved, e-mail me. There's something not right here if unproven ideas invented by proffesionals are accepted, but amatuer's ideas are canned. Kyle Mcallister P.S.: I'm not taking this personally, but speaking in the name of science. From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 18 15:24 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3646" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "15:24:32" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "66" "starship-design: PseudoScience?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA04777 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:24:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA04736 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [198.68.17.19]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA05975; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA11340; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:24:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707182224.PAA11340@tzadkiel.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <33CFF1CF.2D0@sunherald.infi.net> References: <33CFF1CF.2D0@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.15p7 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 3645 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: kyle Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: PseudoScience? Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:24:32 -0700 kyle writes: > I did not say I believed everything in those web pages. Some of these so > called "Contactees" are about the weirdest people around. > > I'm currently having to contend with two groups: > A: So called "pseudoscientists", who believe every crazy idea that comes > along > B: So called "hard scientists", who refuse to listen to facts that are > unusual or hard to accept. > > Both groups are wrong. We need to have conclusive proof of theory before > accepting it, but the scientific community needs to listen to new ideas > and try them. I really don't care if it violates physics, as several > things have before, and we use them today. The scientific community has > become hotheaded in thinking we know almost everything there is to know. > We don't know 1/1000th of what we think we know. I suppose this is human > nature. Your conception of a "hard scientist" is based entirely on your stereotypes, not on the way that scientists act. I listen to facts when people actually present them. But your continual attempt to present unsubstantiated, pseudoscientific concepts as "fact" are what I argue against. I don't listen to a lot of your "facts" because you all too often don't present any. Historically the burden of proof for a new, radical theory is on the presenter of the theory. More wrong and untenable ideas come along than anyone can hope to test. You can't expect instant acceptance of something that doesn't fit with what we already know or think we know. You may find that reluctance galling, but it's exactly that reluctance to accept ideas without proof that makes science work at all. > I wonder why no one is cut down when bringing in a concept like > "cellular universe" or Lorentz contraction, (neither of which has been > proven, which violates everything said here), but when I bring up a > concept, I'm instantly shot down with a barrage of messages > whose basic line is: don't bring up something you can't prove. If you > want some example of commonly accepted science that has never been > proved, e-mail me. There's something not right here if unproven ideas > invented by proffesionals are accepted, but amatuer's ideas are canned. The cellular-automata model of the universe was just plain silly, and not even the participants were arguing its relevance to the real topic of this mailing list, which is designing working starships. Claiming that the Lorentz contraction is unproven is just plain wrong and shows your ignorance. There are two things to remember about the Lorentz Contraction: First, the Lorentz contraction is something you measure, not something you see. The finite speed of light combined with relativistic contraction of frame coordinates produces the visual appearance of rotation (as well as some other distortion) rather than simple compression along the direction of motion. Second, as has been pointed out repeatedly, we do observe astrophysical phenomena involving relativistic velocities, and if Lorentz contraction of frame coordinates didn't happen, they wouldn't look the way they do. Lorentz contraction is even observable by the distortions it creates in the electromagnetic fields of particles accelerated to near lightspeed; if it didn't happen, then particle accelerators wouldn't work either. You're going to have to find a better example of something that you claim the experts are just making up if you want to make that point. > P.S.: I'm not taking this personally, but speaking in the name of > science. If you're going to speak in the name of science, then please do a better job of understanding how it works. From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 18 15:44 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["583" "Fri" "18" "July" "1997" "16:44:33" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "13" "starship-design: Dare we walk in their footsteps?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA10616 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA10587 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-85.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-72.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.72]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA11176 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:44:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33CFFFE0.2413@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 582 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Dare we walk in their footsteps? Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:44:33 -0700 NASA's Interstellar flight symoposium seemed to listen to ZPE/FTL ideas (many of which come up with by amatuers). If we are going to attempt to design starships, then we need to follow their example. If we don't have the engineering knowhow, guess. Contact Marc G. Millis if you'd like to read their analysis of the situation. If we dare walk in their footsteps, then we should listen to theory. If its good enough for them its good enough for us. Kyle Mcallister P.S.: I may be unresponsive for awhile, as hurricane Danny is causing trouble down here with power and phone lines. From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 18 21:34 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1053" "Sat" "19" "July" "1997" "00:34:21" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "31" "Re: starship-design: I'm a new member" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA07403 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 21:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout19.mail.aol.com (emout19.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.45]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA07391 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 21:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA08401; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 00:34:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970719003420_1961341560@emout19.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1052 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: jimaclem@juno.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: I'm a new member Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 00:34:21 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/17/97 12:49:29 AM, jimaclem@juno.com wrote: >Hello everyone, > > I'm a mechanical engineer, and found your web site. Absolutely >fascinating! Will someone please help me get up to speed on whats >happening. I love the idea of instellar flight, and am glad to be part >of a serious discussion. > > Thanks. > Jim Clem, BSE > jimaclem@juno.com Welcome to the group! We range from engineers, physics students/researchers, to anyone with a e-mail account. After we arghued out the design ideas illistrated in the site (Hey Dave I just noticed you've been uploading my new draft stuff onto Sunsite! Cool!!) we got quite for a while. (Without any new technology/physics breakthroughs thats abouit as good as we could think of.) But at the moment the idea of exotic (semi-unknown) power sources and physics tricks has been geting a lot of discusion. Such as Warp drives of zero point energy. (The down side is we can realisticly design anything using such nebulous concepts. Welcome to the group. Kelly Starks From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 19 04:47 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["608" "Sat" "19" "July" "1997" "13:42:29" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "22" "starship-design: Re: New discussion" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id EAA20563 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 04:47:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id EAA20554 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 04:47:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-013.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wpXzX-000FIJC; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:48:03 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 607 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: New discussion Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:42:29 +0100 Hi Jim, You touched the subject beaming (of either a probe or the starship itself). I'd like you to read a rough summary of all the problems that this group has come up with so far. You should be able to find it here: http://www1.tip.nl/~t596675/sd/beaming/beam.html The document is still needs a lot of polishing, so if you find mistakes, oddities let me know. I'm not trying to shut you down here, but think it would be easier for yourself to know most of the "facts" before you make up your mind. I hope you have many questions afterwards, which will help me making that document better. Timothy From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 19 12:06 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2196" "Sat" "19" "July" "1997" "15:06:21" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "50" "Re: starship-design: Aliens" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id MAA00074 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:06:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout11.mail.aol.com (emout11.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.26]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA00061 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:06:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout11.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA18035; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 15:06:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970719150620_1512126400@emout11.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2195 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: stk@sunherald.infi.net, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Aliens Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 15:06:21 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/18/97 8:56:25 AM, stk@sunherald.infi.net (kyle) wrote: >KellySt@aol.com wrote: >> >> Life in a gas giant is possible, but it would have to survive drifting in the >> updrafts and stuff. I'ld guess technology would be pretty much a no go. > >Actually, Timothy showed me that technology wouldn't be much of a >problem (using materials in atmosphere, dead bodies broken down for >materials, etc.) Its my guess that spacetravel (probably between planet >and moons) would be developed early, with other tech falling below, but >not impossible. After all, flight would have already been established. >Spacetravel to nearby moons would provide other resources that were >scarce in the jovian planets atmosphere. On the contrary. Floats can't carry much. You can't work metal without a forge or way to melt and carry the metal. No ceramics. Your kind of stuck with gases and remains of other life forms or debries. The complex heavy materials from metals, bricks, glass, etc needed for technology, especialy high energy technology, would be unavalible. Worse, if you could get some, you'ld have to drop them to keep from geting draged down. >> The moons around gas giants don't have to be earth sized. As a mater of fact >> the two likelyest areas in our solar system for life are Titan and Europa >> The later having liquid water oceans, the former very complex organic soup. >> >True. I was thinking of earth-like life. The fact of the matter is, life >is probably very diverse and of very wide variety. Does anyone have any >ideas on Silicon, Boron, or others as possible base chemicals for life? >Perhaps on freezing planets ammonia could replace water. > >Kyle Mcallister How earth like do you want? MOst of earth ecology is pretty alien by our standards (Hint: only a tiny fraction of earth biosphere is part of our photo synthisis based ecosphere.) The stuff swiming in Europas oceans could be pretty big and complex. Could be similar to our deap ocean life. As to exotic chemistries (silicon, boron, etc..) they don't seem to be that active in basic chemister, or interstellar space compared to carbon bases componds. So they might be very rare. Kelly From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 19 12:07 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2472" "Sat" "19" "July" "1997" "15:06:28" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "48" "Re: starship-design: New discussion" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id MAA00143 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout13.mail.aol.com (emout13.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.39]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA00125 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout13.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA21880; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 15:06:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970719150624_176262976@emout13.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2471 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: jimaclem@juno.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: New discussion Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 15:06:28 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/18/97 8:29:10 PM, jimaclem@juno.com wrote: >Okay, > > Since my wild-haired ideas have been thoroughly picked at, I'll >go to another subject, power for the Argosey, M.A.R.S. concepts. It is >stated in those documents that power on the order of 10^18 watts, or >10^15 kilowatts will be required to drive a heavy sail-craft. Here's an >idea for getting that energy. If you note the document on carbonaceous >chondrite asteroids, you will find that those appear to have a silicate >content of some 83 %. If we mine these and use this material to build >solar panels, LARGE panels, and place them orbiting the sun at about the >orbit of Venus, we can get approximately 1 kilowatt for 3 m^2 of panel, >assuming a final conversion rate of 10%. Thus one square kilometer of >panel will generate approximately 3 * 10^5 kilowatts. Placing these at >the distance of Mercury will generate some 9 * 10^5 kilowatts. Lets >assume that efficiency improvements will allow this to approximately >double, giving some 2 * 10^6 kilowatts. 10^15 kilowatts now can be >produced with some 1,000,000,000 square kilometers of panels, orbiting at >the same distance as Mercury. (Yep, those numbers seem to be right). >This gives a disk some 36,000 kilometers in diameter!!!!! Just trying to >start a dialog on this problem, as this seems the best and quickest way >to get probes out there. > >Jim Clem Excelent topic change!! Also important for my fuel/sail configuration. Yes, if you assume the microwave generators are a fleet of large solar power sats (like those proposed in O'Neils space colonization concepts), each phase linked together during transmition, with each platform about 10 x 100 kilometers. So with about a thousand sqaure kilometers per platform. 2 * 10^6 kilowatts of power per square kilometer of collector at Mercuryvill distance from the sun. Thats 2 * 10^9 kilowatts of power per platform (about 1,000 times the power output of a standard comercial power plant). So you need a 5 million platform power array to produce the the10^15 kilowatts needed to boost these ships out of Sol space. If these things cost about as much per kilowatt as curren big power plants (about a billion dollars per 10,000 kilowatts I think). The total bill would be in the $ 10^18 range. Obviously we need a way to drasticly reduce the cost of power production to get these guys up to speed, or look for a more cost effective launcher system. Kelly From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 19 12:07 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2240" "Sat" "19" "July" "1997" "15:06:14" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "110" "starship-design: Re: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id MAA00176 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com (emout07.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.22]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA00029; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:06:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA29427; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 15:06:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970719150614_-324844480@emout07.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2239 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: jimaclem@juno.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu cc: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nlstarship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us? Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 15:06:14 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/18/97 7:16:33 AM, jimaclem@juno.com wrote: >>>Kelly, > >>> > >>>>>Immune systems usually see almost every non-self organism as > >>dangerous. I > >>>>>wouldn't think that it doesn't matter much whether the non-self > >>organism > >>>>>comes from space or Earth. > >>>>>In some cases the body even starts killing something of itself, > >>this is > >>>>>called an auto-immune disease. > >>>> > >>>>Immune systems arn't that good at detecting, much less combating, > >>'any' > >>>>non-self organism. They are best at detecting and defeating things > >>that > >>the > >>>>organism routinly is attacked by. Alien micro life would not be > >>something > >>>>were 'tuned' to fight or look for. > >>> > >>>As far as I know they are quite good at detecting, only finding the > >>>"antidote" before it is too late can be a problem. However > >>antibiotics > >>>usually can help quite a lot. > >> > >>You can't use an antibiotic on alien microbes. They work by suttle > >>disruption of celular chemistry. I.E. something that will kill them, > >>but not > >>us. > >> > >>>And even if we were not immune to alien bacteria, would we be able to > >>spot > >>>it? Likely there are more Earthly bacteria that kill people than > >>Space > >>bacteria. > >> > >>No way to know. Can't even know anything basic about their celular > >>construction or chemistry. > >> > > > >Just a thought to consider folks. All living organisms on this planet, > >including viruses have DNA and RNA constructed from the same four > >proteins, adenine, cytosine, guanine and tyrosine. (And I do mean ALL > >life forms on this planet, from viruses to trees to us). The chances > >that an alien microbe, or anything else, would use these same proteins > >seem rather small, thus rendering them and us relatively harmless to each > >other since we cant read each other's cellular codes. > > > >Jim The problem with that common misundarstanding is that most deseases and infections don't involve interaction with the organisms genetics. Only viruse s do. Bacteria, fungi, parasites, etc just need compatable pretean structures (very simple and common in nature) and an environment that isn't leathal enough to kill them quickly. Kelly From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 19 12:07 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6072" "Sat" "19" "July" "1997" "15:06:36" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "144" "Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id MAA00202 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:07:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout17.mail.aol.com (emout17.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.43]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA00190 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout17.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA19959; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 15:06:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970719150631_-459072192@emout17.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 6071 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us? Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 15:06:36 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/18/97 3:58:51 PM, TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) wrote: >Kelly, > >>>As far as I know they are quite good at detecting, only finding the >>>"antidote" before it is too late can be a problem. However antibiotics >>>usually can help quite a lot. >> >>You can't use an antibiotic on alien microbes. They work by suttle >>disruption of celular chemistry. I.E. something that will kill them, but not >>us. > >Well, these chemicals make certain important biological chemical reactions >impossible. Unless the alien bacteria use very different ways to stay alive, >they may not be influenced. This is possible, but likely means that the >bacteria cannot survive in the climate of our body (which provides only >chemicals that are in a specific biological cycle that needs the climate of >our body). Actually they are tuned to disrupt certian key reactions in the microbe that are critical to them and unused in us. Virtually nothing is leathal or healthy to all organisms here. Owls can eat cyanide without effect. Dogs can be poisoned by chocolate. Some bacteria are vulnerable to some antibiotics, not to others. >>>And even if we were not immune to alien bacteria, would we be able to spot >>>it? Likely there are more Earthly bacteria that kill people than Space >>>bacteria. >> >>No way to know. Can't even know anything basic about their celular >>construction or chemistry. > >Well of course we can't be sure about their chemistry, but in my discussions >I assumed that they where based on DNA like we. If not, than all bets (from >me) are off. I know too little about the possible chemical reaction-cycles >in other systems. Not all life forms here do use DNA. Even those that do have very strange variations of chemical and physical variations and tolerances. >>>Well, that's why I didn't mention it the other discussion :) >>> >>>To get back to the point: Why would alien bacteria survive better than Earth >>>bacteria? >> >>Each taken out of its eco-would tend to react radically. > >Yes.. they radically die. >We never hear about the millions of strange bacteria that don't survive >their visit to local cousins. Only the few that are stronger will leave a >noticable fingerprint. It's hard to make conclusions when you've seen only >one side of the story. One plauge is far more noticable then the deaths of thousands of microbes. >I'd think that one could easely research this question. Just dump a few >strange bacteria in a huge colony of "normal" bacteria and see what happens. >If the strange bacteria turn out to survive all the time, then indeed you >are right, but I strongly doubt that. My guess is that in most of the cases >the local bacteria will survive over the foreign bacteria. The locals are >usually much better adapted to the local climate (=temperature, chemicals, >enemies, friends). >I bet that only a few foreign bacteria will have a sufficiently high >evolution that they can prosper in a new environment. The problem is were not to interested in their lethality to microbes. Were ve ry intersted in their effects on macro-organisms (trees, birds, HUMANS, ...) and their effect on biospheres. >>So I expect earths microbes or vermine would be as deadly >>there as alien stuff would be here. Course the microbes are more hardy, so >>they should survive better. > >Huh, this seems to be a paradox. If our bacteria kill theirs, than that >would mean our bacteria are stronger. So then, how can their bacteria kill >ours when they meet here? Doesn't mean anything like that. Our bacteria here have to deal with organisms that they have been preying on for millions-billions of years. Their prey has adapted immune responces and other adaptations to resist them. Drop them in an alien ecology and the local life forms have great adaptations to fight the local microbes. None of which are correct for the alien earth microbes. Earth barteria and fungi can run rampant. The alien microbes have the same reaction here. NO one evolved the right tricks to fight them. >>>Which "cultures with magical technology" do you mean. I can't recall when WE >>>encountered them before. True other cultures did, but I thought they usually >>>believed in magic. >> >>We as in humans. Obviously the current dominent cultures are to recent. >>But the Japanise in the late 1800's to the abos walking out of the jungle >>today give plenty of data sources. > >Hmmm, didn't most of them believe in supernatural rather than in facts? Some did some didn't. Whats the point? Do you expect more sophisticated and educated cultures would be less capable of dealing with the unexpected? They are the ones that have to continuously deal with the unexpected. >>>Why then contact us and give us the data? Just for the fun to see what >>>happens? >> >>What else do they have to trade? Besides, exploreres usually have to give >>gifts to the primatives. Helps prevent becoming dinner. ;) >> >>Seriously thou. To them it would be the equivalent of tossing out a handfull >>of beeds. > >Kelly, I see where this discussion is going. We've dozens of these in our >private letters. We're likely not to agree about this question soon, our >"fundamentals" (=my ideals and your reality) are still far apart (though the >do come closer). > >>>What good is destroying your test subject if your only example? >> >>What good is exploring if you never take a look at anything? If you don't >>interact with the natives, you might as well stay home. > >Oh, you may interact with them, but they first have to grow to the fact that >they are not alone out there. Like I wrote you before, one can't force >people into new developments. > >Timothy Life always forces people into new developments. People NEVER pregrow into a solution before thrown into it. Lifes about dealing with the unexplained, unanticipated problems you were sure could never happen to you. Why do you assume cultures and their citizens are so fragile and weak? Kelly From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 19 12:20 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["409" "Sat" "19" "July" "1997" "15:19:55" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "15" "Re: Re: starship-design: antimatter fountain: popsci article" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id MAA03303 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:20:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA03286; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA02607; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 15:19:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970719150624_-56425664@emout08.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 408 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: jimaclem@juno.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu cc: bakelaar@injersey.comstarship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: Re: starship-design: antimatter fountain: popsci article Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 15:19:55 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/18/97 7:16:36 AM, jimaclem@juno.com wrote: >Fascinating. This raises my hopes for finding a simple, relatively > >inexpensive way to generate antimatter for our own use. Perhaps nuclear > >reactions in the presence of an artificial hypermass? HMMMM!! :) Actually we can generate anti mater easier than that. Its just to expensive to make the fuel very usaful or common. Kelly From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 19 13:19 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2140" "Sat" "19" "July" "1997" "15:17:12" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "36" "RE: starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id NAA15340 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA15325 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:19:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p5.gnt.com (x2p5.gnt.com [204.49.68.210]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA30872 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 15:19:52 -0500 Received: by x2p5.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC9457.33F6A900@x2p5.gnt.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 15:19:51 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC9457.33F6A900@x2p5.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by darkwing.uoregon.edu id NAA15329 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 2139 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us? Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 15:17:12 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: jimaclem@juno.com [SMTP:jimaclem@juno.com] Sent: Friday, July 18, 1997 8:18 AM To: KellySt@aol.com Cc: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl; starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us? Just a thought to consider folks. All living organisms on this planet, including viruses have DNA and RNA constructed from the same four proteins, adenine, cytosine, guanine and tyrosine. (And I do mean ALL life forms on this planet, from viruses to trees to us). The chances that an alien microbe, or anything else, would use these same proteins seem rather small, thus rendering them and us relatively harmless to each other since we cant read each other's cellular codes. Jim, Sorry, but that reasoning won't wash. Using the ecology of THIS planet as a basis for the behavior of organisms from another ecology is like trying to determine what color light is with a yard stick - you can describe the color in terms that are producible with a yard stick, but you can't measure light with the yard stick. While it is certainly possible or even likely that non-terrestrial organisms which are based upon different proteins would find it difficult or impossible to infect a terrestrial host, that does NOT mean that they couldn't KILL a terrestrial organism. The infectious attempt itself may kill both organisms. From the point of vew of the victim it really doesn't matter. Dead is still dead. I also think that it is likely that non terrestrial organisms WILL be based on the same proteins, they have been found in interstellar dust clouds using spectroscopic analysis. There is therefore a significant chance that there will be RNA/DNA based life out there which WILL find us tasty. L. Parker (o o) ------------------------------------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo--------- Long experience has taught me not to believe in the limitations indicated by purely theoretical considerations. These - as we well know - are based on insufficient knowledge of all the relevant factors." Guglielmo Marconi From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 19 14:06 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2889" "Sat" "19" "July" "1997" "15:38:09" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "39" "RE: starship-design: New discussion" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id OAA24953 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 14:06:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA24941 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 14:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p5.gnt.com (x2p5.gnt.com [204.49.68.210]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA00504 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 16:06:14 -0500 Received: by x2p5.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC945D.ACCE4580@x2p5.gnt.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 16:06:11 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC945D.ACCE4580@x2p5.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by darkwing.uoregon.edu id OAA24943 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 2888 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: New discussion Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 15:38:09 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: jimaclem@juno.com [SMTP:jimaclem@juno.com] Sent: Friday, July 18, 1997 1:49 PM To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: New discussion Okay, Since my wild-haired ideas have been thoroughly picked at, I'll go to another subject, power for the Argosey, M.A.R.S. concepts. It is stated in those documents that power on the order of 10^18 watts, or 10^15 kilowatts will be required to drive a heavy sail-craft. Here's an idea for getting that energy. If you note the document on carbonaceous chondrite asteroids, you will find that those appear to have a silicate content of some 83 %. If we mine these and use this material to build solar panels, LARGE panels, and place them orbiting the sun at about the orbit of Venus, we can get approximately 1 kilowatt for 3 m^2 of panel, assuming a final conversion rate of 10%. Thus one square kilometer of panel will generate approximately 3 * 10^5 kilowatts. Placing these at the distance of Mercury will generate some 9 * 10^5 kilowatts. Lets assume that efficiency improvements will allow this to approximately double, giving some 2 * 10^6 kilowatts. 10^15 kilowatts now can be produced with some 1,000,000,000 square kilometers of panels, orbiting at the same distance as Mercury. (Yep, those numbers seem to be right). This gives a disk some 36,000 kilometers in diameter!!!!! Just trying to start a dialog on this problem, as this seems the best and quickest way to get probes out there. Jim Clem Jim, That is a pretty good idea. However as an engineer, I'm sure that you are familiar with conversion efficiency. Sometime ago I mentioned an old article I read on a solar powered laser that was based on principles of geometry - in other words it was mechanical, a trick of mirrors. I believe it was in Scientific American, but I'm not sure. (If anyone out there is near a library with archives, please look. I'm in a backwater here, the nearest decent library is almost a hundred miles.) Anyway, it would be very simple to set up mass production of such a device to kick out millions of these things automatically. The hardest part would be the control circuitry to keep them aimed at the same approximate point in space. Since it would be so low tech, we could send an advance probe to build an array at the other end to improve the flight times of subsequent colonization ships. Envision a small Starwisp type of probe with a ten pound payload of nanobots whose sole purpose would be to convert an asteroid belt into solar pumped lasers and control machinery. It might take it fifty years to get there and another fifty years to build the infrastructure, but after it was built we could put a M.A.R.S. or sail type ship up to near light speed quickly and then decelerate it at the other end without resorting to complicated magnetic loop braking, etc. L. Parker From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 19 15:28 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["557" "Sat" "19" "July" "1997" "16:28:24" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "11" "Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA13667 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 15:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA13658 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 15:28:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-112.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-112.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.112]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA12032 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 18:28:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33D14D97.6F54@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <01BC9457.33F6A900@x2p5.gnt.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 556 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us? Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 16:28:24 -0700 L. Parker wrote: > > Sorry, but that reasoning won't wash. Using the ecology of THIS planet as a basis for the behavior of organisms from another ecology is like trying to determine what color light is with a yard stick - you can describe the color in terms that are producible with a yard stick, but you can't measure light with the yard stick. I pretty much agree, but one note as a bit of humor: If you can see small enough, you CAN measure color with a yard stick! (assuming the stick is divided into small enough units)(angstroms) Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 19 16:28 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["162" "Sun" "20" "July" "1997" "01:22:58" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "9" "starship-design: Solar pumped lasers" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id QAA24809 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 16:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA24800 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 16:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-029.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wpivN-000FSTC; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 01:28:29 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 161 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Solar pumped lasers Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 01:22:58 +0100 Hi all, For solar pumped lasers check out: http://www.weizmann.ac.il/consolar/SunDaySymp/Yogev/Quantum4.html (Try also some of the other links on this site) From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 19 19:02 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["931" "Sat" "19" "July" "1997" "22:04:50" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "27" "Re: starship-design: Dare we walk in their footsteps?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA25139 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 19:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA25130 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 19:02:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id W^E27520; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 22:02:27 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970719.220450.11398.0.jimaclem@juno.com> References: <33CFFFE0.2413@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-19,23-25 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 930 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Dare we walk in their footsteps? Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 22:04:50 -0400 On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:44:33 -0700 kyle writes: >NASA's Interstellar flight symoposium seemed to listen to ZPE/FTL >ideas >(many of which come up with by amatuers). If we are going to attempt >to >design starships, then we need to follow their example. If we don't >have >the engineering knowhow, guess. Contact Marc G. Millis if you'd like >to >read their analysis of the situation. If we dare walk in their >footsteps, then we should listen to theory. If its good enough for >them >its good enough for us. > >Kyle Mcallister > >P.S.: I may be unresponsive for awhile, as hurricane Danny is causing >trouble down here with power and phone lines. > Well, I'll say this about NASA. I honestly have a hard time paying serious attention to an agency that uses a Rolls Royce to move its couch, i.e., space shuttle to launch communication satellites. None the less, I will look up their analysis. Jim From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 19 19:20 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["818" "Sat" "19" "July" "1997" "22:21:59" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "38" "starship-design: Re: New discussion" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA27925 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 19:20:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA27900 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 19:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id WdX27520; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 22:19:08 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970719.222200.11398.1.jimaclem@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-36 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 817 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: New discussion Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 22:21:59 -0400 On Sat, 19 Jul 1997 13:42:29 +0100 TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) writes: > >Hi Jim, > >You touched the subject beaming (of either a probe or the starship >itself). >I'd like you to read a rough summary of all the problems that this >group has >come up with so far. > >You should be able to find it here: > >http://www1.tip.nl/~t596675/sd/beaming/beam.html > >The document is still needs a lot of polishing, so if you find >mistakes, >oddities let me know. thanks, I will check this out. >I'm not trying to shut you down here, but think it would be easier for >yourself to know most of the "facts" before you make up your mind. >I hope you have many questions afterwards, which will help me making >that >document better. > >Timothy > > Good, point, I'll keep this in mind. Thanks. Jim From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 19 19:42 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["301" "Sat" "19" "July" "1997" "22:44:43" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "16" "Re: starship-design: Solar pumped lasers" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA01334 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 19:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA01320 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 19:42:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id WmS27520; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 22:42:03 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970719.224444.9134.1.jimaclem@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-14 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 300 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Solar pumped lasers Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 22:44:43 -0400 On Sun, 20 Jul 1997 01:22:58 +0100 TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) writes: >Hi all, > >For solar pumped lasers check out: > >http://www.weizmann.ac.il/consolar/SunDaySymp/Yogev/Quantum4.html > >(Try also some of the other links on this site) > > Thanks, I'll check this out. Jim From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 19 19:44 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3197" "Sat" "19" "July" "1997" "22:39:28" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "74" "Re: starship-design: New discussion" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA01564 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 19:44:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA01516 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 19:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id WmR27520; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 22:42:03 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970719.224444.9134.0.jimaclem@juno.com> References: <01BC945D.ACCE4580@x2p5.gnt.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-70,72 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 3196 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: lparker@cacaphony.net Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: New discussion Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 22:39:28 -0400 On Sat, 19 Jul 1997 15:38:09 -0500 "L. Parker" writes: >-----Original Message----- >From: jimaclem@juno.com [SMTP:jimaclem@juno.com] >Sent: Friday, July 18, 1997 1:49 PM >To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu >Subject: starship-design: New discussion > >Okay, > > Since my wild-haired ideas have been thoroughly picked at, >I'll >go to another subject, power for the Argosey, M.A.R.S. concepts. It >is >stated in those documents that power on the order of 10^18 watts, or >10^15 kilowatts will be required to drive a heavy sail-craft. Here's >an >idea for getting that energy. If you note the document on >carbonaceous >chondrite asteroids, you will find that those appear to have a >silicate >content of some 83 %. If we mine these and use this material to build >solar panels, LARGE panels, and place them orbiting the sun at about >the >orbit of Venus, we can get approximately 1 kilowatt for 3 m^2 of >panel, >assuming a final conversion rate of 10%. Thus one square kilometer of >panel will generate approximately 3 * 10^5 kilowatts. Placing these >at >the distance of Mercury will generate some 9 * 10^5 kilowatts. Lets >assume that efficiency improvements will allow this to approximately >double, giving some 2 * 10^6 kilowatts. 10^15 kilowatts now can be >produced with some 1,000,000,000 square kilometers of panels, orbiting >at >the same distance as Mercury. (Yep, those numbers seem to be right). >This gives a disk some 36,000 kilometers in diameter!!!!! Just trying >to >start a dialog on this problem, as this seems the best and quickest >way >to get probes out there. > >Jim Clem > > >Jim, > >That is a pretty good idea. However as an engineer, I'm sure that you >are familiar with conversion efficiency. Sometime ago I mentioned an >old article I read on a solar powered laser that was based on >principles of geometry - in other words it was mechanical, a trick of >mirrors. I believe it was in Scientific American, but I'm not sure. >(If anyone out there is near a library with archives, please look. I'm >in a backwater here, the nearest decent library is almost a hundred >miles.) Anyway, it would be very simple to set up mass production of >such a device to kick out millions of these things automatically. The >hardest part would be the control circuitry to keep them aimed at the >same approximate point in space. > >Since it would be so low tech, we could send an advance probe to build >an array at the other end to improve the flight times of subsequent >colonization ships. Envision a small Starwisp type of probe with a ten >pound payload of nanobots whose sole purpose would be to convert an >asteroid belt into solar pumped lasers and control machinery. It might >take it fifty years to get there and another fifty years to build the >infrastructure, but after it was built we could put a M.A.R.S. or sail >type ship up to near light speed quickly and then decelerate it at the >other end without resorting to complicated magnetic loop braking, etc. > >L. Parker > You're right, I am familiar with conversion efficiency, pretty dismal most of the time. I'll check the pumped laser concept out. From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 19 20:07 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2514" "Sat" "19" "July" "1997" "19:04:43" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "14" "starship-design: Solar Pumped Laser" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA05978 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 20:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA05968 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 20:07:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p5.gnt.com (x2p31.gnt.com [204.49.68.236]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA19349 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 22:07:24 -0500 Received: by x2p5.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC9490.205D05E0@x2p5.gnt.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 22:07:19 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC9490.205D05E0@x2p5.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by darkwing.uoregon.edu id UAA05969 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 2513 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: starship-design: Solar Pumped Laser Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 19:04:43 -0500 NREL Researchers Use Sunlight to Power Laser For Information Contact: Mike Coe (303) 275-4085 Golden, Colo., December 14, 1995 -- Commercial prospects for solar-powered lasers recently got a little brighter when researchers at the U.S. Department of Energy s National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) and the University of Chicago powered a laser with concentrated sunlight instead of electricity. The solar laser works in the same manner as other lasers except it uses concentrated sunlight for power instead of electricity. The sunlight was supplied by NREL s High Flux Solar Furnace, a facility that uses a series of mirrors to concentrate sunlight into an intense, focused beam that reaches concentrations of up to 50,000 suns. To create the solar laser, a neodymium-doped yttrium aluminum garnet (Nd:YAG) laser crystal was mounted at the target of a specially designed secondary concentrator. The crystal and secondary concentrator were then placed at the focal point of the primary concentrator. When sunlight was added, this concave-convex mirror system gave birth to a solar laser. The laser had a peak power output of 57 watts. Most conventional industrial lasers have power outputs of several hundred watts. Our test results prove that a solar-pumped laser can achieve high powers with reasonable efficiency, said NREL s Allan Lewandowski. We achieved the highest reported efficiency for a solar-pumped laser operating at this power level. Lasers are very energy intensive, consuming much more energy than they produce. Lasers powered by electricity operate at about 1-2 percent efficiency, meaning they require 10 kilowatts of energy to produce 100 to 200 watt lasers. NREL s solar laser has an efficiency of almost 1 percent. The efficiency is expected to improve as researchers refine and optimize the system. NREL researchers believe that solar lasers are potentially more efficient than traditional lasers. NREL and University of Chicago researchers developed the secondary concentrator used for the solar laser as part of a collaborative effort. While early results are promising, the technology still requires significant development before it is viable for commercial uses. Because atmospheric conditions such as variable cloud cover significantly influence laser performance, space-based applications (space communication and space power systems) may hold the most promise for solar lasers. Other potential applications include terrestrial materials processing and photochemistry. From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 19 20:07 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4044" "Sat" "19" "July" "1997" "19:14:26" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "19" "starship-design: Solar Pumped Lasers" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA06000 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 20:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA05990 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 20:07:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p5.gnt.com (x2p31.gnt.com [204.49.68.236]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA19365 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 22:07:34 -0500 Received: by x2p5.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC9490.281FB7A0@x2p5.gnt.com>; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 22:07:32 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC9490.281FB7A0@x2p5.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by darkwing.uoregon.edu id UAA05992 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 4043 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: starship-design: Solar Pumped Lasers Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 19:14:26 -0500 When I said this was low tech, I had no idea.... The Passive Solar Laser Using the basics of laser physics, we concluded that a laser could in theory be powered by means other than a flashlamp or another laser. While sunlight might not initially seem to be a source of power that could be focused into a beam equivalent to the concentrated flashes of a flashlamp reflected from one focus of an ellipse to another, or another laser, there is, theoretically, a way to harness enough power to excite the dye enough to get a laser beam. This beam will not be tunable, and in fact will cover several wavelenghts at once, and be the same color (or close to) the dye itself. Because the sun's rays come from so far away, the ones that reach the earth are practically parallel. Of course they are not truly parallel, coming from a incoherent source, but the angle of divergence is negligible for our purposes. Assuming that the rays are parallel, they can be focused on a single line using a parabolic, reflective trough. diag. 1 This trough, if it has enough surface area, should concentrate enough light to cause excitation, and stimulate the emission of photons. The dye tube (optical cavity) will be essentially the same in this project as in the tunable, flashlamp-powered laser. The only difference will be that the dye will not be circulated throught the solar laser, as it probably will not be powerful enough to require constant renewal of the dye. Trough Construction 1.) Trace out a parabola on a piece of poster-board, using a focus point and a directrix, and plotting all of the points equidistant from both. This parabola should be at least 1-2 feet in width, and should be fairly shallow, to make construction easier. (As long as it is parabolic, the actual equation of the parabola will not matter, it will focus light onto the focus regardless.) 2.) Use the poster-board parabola as a guide to cut out at least two, probably three copies of it out of 3/4" plywood. These will give the trough its shape, and everything else is built around them, so make sure they are as accurate as possible. 3.) Bend 1/4" masonite around the outside of the parabolas and screw or nail it into place. Form a trough, with one parabola at each end. The masonite will naturally want to bow outward in the middle section of the trough, but a center parabolic support, and strips of 1"x2" planking on the outside, nailed or screwed through the masonite and into the parabolas, should suffice to keep the trough parabolic enough, depending upon its length. The length of the trough should be at least 2'. 4.) Drill 1/4" holes at the focus of each parabola to hold the dye tube. 5.) For the reflective surface, use aluminum flashing, polished if possible (glass cleaner should suffice). Attach it with brads nailed through the masonite and into the 1"x2" supports. 6.) Build a base for the trough that will allow it to stand on flat ground, and be tilted towards the sun. There are many ways this base can be cnostructed, but two things are necessary. It must be able to be held in place at any angle from the ground along both the length and width of the trough. (Make it tilt from side to side, and up and down.) Testing To ensure that the parabola is reflecting correctly, the laser should be tested at various stages during its construction. Once the flashing has been attached, and the holes drilled at the focus, testing can begin. Using a 1/4" dowel in place of the dye tube, another laser can be used to test specific points. Simply point the laser perpendicular to the face of the trough, and if the laser light is reflected exclusively onto the dowel rod, the laser is working correctly in that area. However, this method is limited, and once the base is constructed, and the laser can be placed perpendicular to the sun's rays, the entire surface can be tested at once. Use the dowel rod again to test here, and if it is working correctly, make your dye tube and fire away! (See Laser Basics for information on dye tube construction.) From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 19 20:12 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["835" "Sat" "19" "July" "1997" "23:13:47" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "25" "Re: starship-design: Aliens" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA06593 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 20:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA06568 for ; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 20:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id XzE27520; Sat, 19 Jul 1997 23:11:21 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970719.231348.9134.2.jimaclem@juno.com> References: <970719150620_1512126400@emout11.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-16,21-23 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 834 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Aliens Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 23:13:47 -0400 On Sat, 19 Jul 1997 15:06:21 -0400 (EDT) KellySt@aol.com writes: > > > >On the contrary. Floats can't carry much. You can't work metal without >a >forge or way to melt and carry the metal. No ceramics. Your kind of >stuck >with gases and remains of other life forms or debries. The complex >heavy >materials from metals, bricks, glass, etc needed for technology, >especialy >high energy technology, would be unavalible. Worse, if you could get >some, >you'ld have to drop them to keep from geting draged down. > Actually, couldn't a sufficiently intelligent species develop a genetically engineered organism that metabolizes metal, then lays down that metal in layers, possibly with several different organisms working in concert to make complex systems? I know, my biology isn't what it should be, but its a thought. Jim From owner-starship-design Sun Jul 20 04:40 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4874" "Sun" "20" "July" "1997" "13:34:51" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "101" "Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id EAA02897 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 04:40:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id EAA02888 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 04:40:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-014.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wpuLj-000FmhC; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 13:40:27 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 4873 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us? Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 13:34:51 +0100 >>Well, these chemicals make certain important biological chemical reactions >>impossible. Unless the alien bacteria use very different ways to stay alive, >>they may not be influenced. This is possible, but likely means that the >>bacteria cannot survive in the climate of our body (which provides only >>chemicals that are in a specific biological cycle that needs the climate of >>our body). > >Actually they are tuned to disrupt certian key reactions in the microbe that >are critical to them and unused in us. Virtually nothing is leathal or >healthy to all organisms here. Owls can eat cyanide without effect. Dogs >can be poisoned by chocolate. Some bacteria are vulnerable to some >antibiotics, not to others. We're not talking about multicellular organisms, we're talking about bacteria. Anything bigger than that should not be able to get trough or biosuit or missed by a biofilter. >>Well of course we can't be sure about their chemistry, but in my discussions >>I assumed that they where based on DNA like we. If not, than all bets (from >>me) are off. I know too little about the possible chemical reaction-cycles >>in other systems. > >Not all life forms here do use DNA. Even those that do have very strange >variations of chemical and physical variations and tolerances. Not all? Which life forms don't use DNA? Bacteria are like humans, they all have similar vulnerabilities. True, some are can much survive better than others, but these are exceptions. >>I'd think that one could easely research this question. Just dump a few >>strange bacteria in a huge colony of "normal" bacteria and see what happens. >>If the strange bacteria turn out to survive all the time, then indeed you >>are right, but I strongly doubt that. My guess is that in most of the cases >>the local bacteria will survive over the foreign bacteria. The locals are >>usually much better adapted to the local climate (=temperature, chemicals, >>enemies, friends). >>I bet that only a few foreign bacteria will have a sufficiently high >>evolution that they can prosper in a new environment. > >The problem is were not to interested in their lethality to microbes. Were >very intersted in their effects on macro-organisms (trees, birds, HUMANS, ...) >and their effect on biospheres. Well, I'd guess that a multicellular organism would have better protection against a bacteria than a single cell organism would. >>Huh, this seems to be a paradox. If our bacteria kill theirs, than that >>would mean our bacteria are stronger. So then, how can their bacteria kill >>ours when they meet here? > >Doesn't mean anything like that. Our bacteria here have to deal with >organisms that they have been preying on for millions-billions of years. > Their prey has adapted immune responces and other adaptations to resist >them. Drop them in an alien ecology and the local life forms have great >adaptations to fight the local microbes. None of which are correct for the >alien earth microbes. Earth barteria and fungi can run rampant. The alien >microbes have the same reaction here. NO one evolved the right tricks to >fight them. But in that case the old prey in the foreign environment would also not have adapted immune responces against his new enemies. So for that matter both hunter and prey are equal again, except that the hunters are in a huge mayority and in a known environment. >>>We as in humans. Obviously the current dominent cultures are to recent. >>>But the Japanise in the late 1800's to the abos walking out of the jungle >>>today give plenty of data sources. >> >>Hmmm, didn't most of them believe in supernatural rather than in facts? > >Some did some didn't. Whats the point? Do you expect more sophisticated and >educated cultures would be less capable of dealing with the unexpected? They >are the ones that have to continuously deal with the unexpected. I indeed suggest that cultures, that have based their world view on facts, may have more trouble with the unexpected, than cultures that have based their ideas on beliefs and magic. >>Oh, you may interact with them, but they first have to grow to the fact that >>they are not alone out there. Like I wrote you before, one can't force >>people into new developments. > >Life always forces people into new developments. People NEVER pregrow into a >solution before thrown into it. Lifes about dealing with the unexplained, >unanticipated problems you were sure could never happen to you. There's a big difference between being immersed in something completely unknown and dipping in something that looks familiar. The latter is what happens most of the times. The former usually is an exception and causes a lot of trouble to accept for a lot of people. (No Kyle, don't comment ;) >Why do you assume cultures and their citizens are so fragile and weak? Am I doing that? Timothy From owner-starship-design Sun Jul 20 08:43 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["233" "Sun" "20" "July" "1997" "10:18:01" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "14" "starship-design: NREL Researchers Use Sunlight to Power Laser" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA02731 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 08:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA02721 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 08:43:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p5.gnt.com (x2p14.gnt.com [204.49.68.219]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA17471 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 10:43:38 -0500 Received: by x2p5.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC94F9.C0815440@x2p5.gnt.com>; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 10:43:25 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC94F9.C0815440@x2p5.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Length: 232 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: starship-design: NREL Researchers Use Sunlight to Power Laser Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 10:18:01 -0500 Timothy, This one is a solar powered laser http://www.peddie.k12.nj.us/laser/splaser.htm Thes are solar pumped lasers http://hep.uchicago.edu/solar/laser.html http://syssrv9.nrel.gov/hot-stuff/press/solar.html Lee Parker From owner-starship-design Sun Jul 20 11:15 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["194" "Sun" "20" "July" "1997" "12:14:44" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "7" "starship-design: No comments" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA28074 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28065 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-84.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-84.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.84]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA12400 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 14:15:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33D263A3.4016@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 193 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: No comments Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 12:14:44 -0700 Do not worry, fellow starship designers. I will make little input from here on out. I have found another group that appreciates my input better. No offense to anyone. Regards, Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Sun Jul 20 12:16 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["86" "Sun" "20" "July" "1997" "13:16:01" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "4" "starship-design: C programs" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id MAA09399 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 12:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA09388 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 12:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-97.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-97.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.97]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA30878 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 15:16:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33D27201.511A@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 85 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: C programs Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 13:16:01 -0700 Does anyone here know how to convert C programs to Basic or QBasic? Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Sun Jul 20 12:47 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["294" "Sun" "20" "July" "1997" "21:42:20" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "12" "starship-design: Re: No comments" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id MAA15911 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 12:47:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA15896 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 12:47:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-017.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wq1xT-000GtYC; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 21:47:55 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 293 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: No comments Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 21:42:20 +0100 Kyle, >Do not worry, fellow starship designers. I will make little input from >here on out. I have found another group that appreciates my input >better. No offense to anyone. Well, you owe us a message as soon as your magnetic monopole definately turns out to be a fake or a hit. Timothy From owner-starship-design Sun Jul 20 13:20 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["663" "Sun" "20" "July" "1997" "14:20:19" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "19" "Re: starship-design: Re: No comments" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id NAA22693 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 13:20:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA22683 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 13:20:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-97.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-77.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.77]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA29589 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 16:20:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33D28112.3536@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 662 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: No comments Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 14:20:19 -0700 Timothy van der Linden wrote: > > Kyle, > > >Do not worry, fellow starship designers. I will make little input from > >here on out. I have found another group that appreciates my input > >better. No offense to anyone. > > Well, you owe us a message as soon as your magnetic monopole definately > turns out to be a fake or a hit. > Since the magnetic lines aren't broken, I suppose its not a monopole. I preffer not to call it a fake, as that would imply that I tried to fool people, and make me look stupid. I simply call it a failed expiriment. It does put out all north fields (outside), but if this doesn't count as monopolar, I give up. Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Sun Jul 20 14:04 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2282" "Sun" "20" "July" "1997" "17:07:22" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "49" "starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id OAA02698 for starship-design-outgoing; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 14:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA02688 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 14:04:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id RfX28198; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 17:04:02 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970720.170722.3526.0.jimaclem@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-4,7-8,12-13,16-17,21-22,26-27,36-37,40-41,45-47 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2281 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 17:07:22 -0400 Timothy, I looked at your page on beam propulsion, very interesting. Here are some comments on it. Anyone else, please chime in! 2a The beaming station very likely needs to be build on a moving/rotating object like a planet, moon or asteroid. Keeping the beam on track means the whole beaming station should be able to actively steer the beam. Well, if you use an asteroid, or a collection of them, it seems reasonable that any motion by them could be canceled out by simple thrusters, either chemical, nuclear, or some variation of a solar thermal engine. 5 Probably the smallest effect, the amount of dust may not be that much compared to the power that is needed. The beam itself will push away a lot of the dust so that the path is "smoothed" a bit. Probably true, however, has anyone considered the effects of erosion on the sail by dust, etc. when the vehicle reaches an appreciable fraction of c? If enough damage is done to the sail, it may well suffer a catastrophic failure, i.e., a large portion breaking off. 12b It would be preferable that the sail is at the Earth-side of the ship, this way the ship itself is not "shined" upon (and not heated). This also means the sail needs to push the starship which may be more difficult than the pull (parachute) method. Here we run into the problems of tension vs. compression members. Example, take a short length of wire, does'nt matter how long. Hang it up and add weight to the free end. This is tension, or pulling, stress. Now stand the wire on end and add weight to the top. This is compressive, or pushing stress. Try it if you like, but you can probably guess that the wire in compression will fail with less weight than the wire in tension. The end result is that compression members, like you're proposing, will be heavier than tension members needed to handle the same mass of vehicle. 18 Either the beaming station is build on a heavy soil (a moon/big asteroid) or it 'shines' also in the opposite direction of the target system. Actually, since the mass of the beaming station won't be negligible, simply placing positioning thrusters on it and using them occasionally should keep the station in position. Why spend energy, hard enough to come by anyway, beaming in another direction. Jim From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 01:04 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["590" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "09:58:40" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "19" "Re: starship-design: Re: No comments" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id BAA12426 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 01:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA12417 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 01:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-020.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wqDS6-000GCuC; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:04:18 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 589 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: No comments Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 09:58:40 +0100 Kyle >>Well, you owe us a message as soon as your magnetic monopole definately >>turns out to be a fake or a hit. >> >Since the magnetic lines aren't broken, I suppose its not a monopole. I >preffer not to call it a fake, as that would imply that I tried to fool >people, and make me look stupid. I simply call it a failed expiriment. >It does put out all north fields (outside), but if this doesn't count as >monopolar, I give up. Doesn't sound like you at all... Oh, I wondered, you wrote that the other group appreciates your input better. What does that mean concretely? Timothy From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 02:28 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3582" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "11:23:32" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "73" "Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id CAA07305 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 02:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA07235 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 02:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-020.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wqEmC-000GG0C; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:29:08 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 3581 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:23:32 +0100 Hello Jim, >2a The beaming station very likely needs to be build on a moving/rotating >object like a planet, moon or asteroid. Keeping the beam on track means >the whole beaming station should be able to actively steer the beam. > > Well, if you use an asteroid, or a collection of them, it seems >reasonable that any motion by them could be canceled out by simple >thrusters, either chemical, nuclear, or some variation of a solar thermal >engine. What I didn't include in the beaming-page was the reason for using a planet or asteroid. I believe the main goal was to have a sufficient mass, so that the reverse momentum of the beaming station would not push itself away at a significant rate. I never really did a calculation to figure out what the effect would be on a planet or asteroid. Now that I did, I'm a bit shocked, we're going to use about 1E26 Joule of total energy. With that energy you can give a mass similar to Earth a velocity of a few meters per second. >5 Probably the smallest effect, the amount of dust may not be that much >compared to the power that is needed. The beam itself will push away a >lot of the dust so that the path is "smoothed" a bit. > > Probably true, however, has anyone considered the effects of >erosion on the sail by dust, etc. when the vehicle reaches an appreciable >fraction of c? If enough damage is done to the sail, it may well suffer >a catastrophic failure, i.e., a large portion breaking off. Well, we know little about this subject. in fact so far we have not found a really satisfying solution for shielding. We have some solutions, but they are either crude or speculative. >12b It would be preferable that the sail is at the Earth-side of the >ship, this way the ship itself is not "shined" upon (and not heated). >This also means the sail needs to push the starship which may be more >difficult than the pull (parachute) method. > > Here we run into the problems of tension vs. compression members. > Example, take a short length of wire, does'nt matter how long. Hang it >up and add weight to the free end. This is tension, or pulling, stress. >Now stand the wire on end and add weight to the top. This is >compressive, or pushing stress. Try it if you like, but you can probably >guess that the wire in compression will fail with less weight than the >wire in tension. The end result is that compression members, like you're >proposing, will be heavier than tension members needed to handle the same >mass of vehicle. True, the parachute design would likely be easier and lighter. The mean reason for pointing out the above problem was that you'd realize that we needed some extra shielding. >18 Either the beaming station is build on a heavy soil (a moon/big >asteroid) or it 'shines' also in the opposite direction of the target >system. > > Actually, since the mass of the beaming station won't be >negligible, simply placing positioning thrusters on it and using them >occasionally should keep the station in position. Why spend energy, hard >enough to come by anyway, beaming in another direction. I'm not completely about what your question is. - Like with question 2a, I never before did a calculation to figure out what the effect of 1E26 Joule on a large body would be. It seems I've to change this. - Thrusters use mass, which indeed is more efficient than photons in making momentum. However to keep the design more simple I suggest to use lasers only. - If we like to keep the beaming station within our solar system, we need to build it on a large mass or we need to retro-beam it. Timothy From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 07:30 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3102" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "10:31:15" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "90" "Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id HAA20083 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 07:30:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA20074 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 07:30:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id K~R01437; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:28:40 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970721.103115.16374.0.jimaclem@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-32,34-42,44,46,48,50,52,54,56,58,60,62,64,66,68, 70,72,74,76,78-83,86-88 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 3101 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:31:15 -0400 On Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:23:32 +0100 TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) writes: >>12b It would be preferable that the sail is at the Earth-side of the >>ship, this way the ship itself is not "shined" upon (and not heated). >>This also means the sail needs to push the starship which may be more >>difficult than the pull (parachute) method. >> >> Here we run into the problems of tension vs. compression >members. >> Example, take a short length of wire, doesn't matter how long. Hang >it >>up and add weight to the free end. This is tension, or pulling, >stress. >>Now stand the wire on end and add weight to the top. This is >>compressive, or pushing stress. Try it if you like, but you can >probably >>guess that the wire in compression will fail with less weight than >the >>wire in tension. The end result is that compression members, like >you're >>proposing, will be heavier than tension members needed to handle the >same >>mass of vehicle. > >True, the parachute design would likely be easier and lighter. The >mean >reason for pointing out the above problem was that you'd realize that >we >needed some extra shielding. > I thought of a simple solution to this a few hours after sending that message. 000 PAYLOAD----> 000 /\ 000 | DIRECTION OF TRAVEL 00 | 00 SAIL | SAIL ________________________________ | ________________________________ \ | / \ | / \ <-----TENSION | <-----Compression / \ MEMBER | Member / \ | / \ | / \ | / \ | / \ | / \ | / \ | / \ | / \ | / \ | / \ | / \ | / \ | / \ | / \ | / \ | / | Lighter than the compression member only idea, and only a little heavier than the tension only, especially since it should reduce the shielding problem. Jim From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 07:53 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2452" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "16:49:16" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "66" "Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id HAA25416 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 07:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.40]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA24203 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 07:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id QAA07291; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:49:16 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707211449.QAA07291@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2451 From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, jimaclem@juno.com Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:49:16 +0200 (MET DST) > From: jimaclem@juno.com> > I thought of a simple solution to this a few hours after sending that > message. > > 000 > PAYLOAD----> 000 /\ > 000 | DIRECTION OF TRAVEL > 00 | > 00 > SAIL | SAIL > ________________________________ | ________________________________ > \ | / > \ | > / > \ <-----TENSION | <-----Compression > / > \ MEMBER | Member > / > \ | > / > \ | > / > \ | > / > \ | > / > \ | > / > \ | > / > \ | > / > \ | > / > \ | > / > \ | > / > \ | > / > \ > | / > \ > | / > \ | > / > \ | / > \ | / > | > > > Lighter than the compression member only idea, and only a little heavier > than the tension only, especially since it should reduce the shielding > problem. > > Jim > Your use of combined spaces and tabs for the ASCII art above, together with your (or list's?) mailer bad habit of automatically breaking longer lines made the construction above unreadable... Though I catched the general idea, please redraw the design (shorter lines, space-only character padding) to make it sneak undamaged through our too-intelligent mail software... -- Zenon From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 08:15 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3573" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "11:14:11" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "115" "Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA01145 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA01063 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:14:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LTS01437; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:12:00 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970721.111411.12614.0.jimaclem@juno.com> References: <199707211449.QAA07291@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-58,60-95,97,99,101-109,111-113 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 3572 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:14:11 -0400 On Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:49:16 +0200 (MET DST) Zenon Kulpa writes: >> From: jimaclem@juno.com> >> I thought of a simple solution to this a few hours after sending >that >> message. >> >> 000 >> PAYLOAD----> 000 /\ >> 000 | DIRECTION OF TRAVEL >> 00 | >> 00 >> SAIL | SAIL >> ________________________________ | >________________________________ >> \ | > / >> \ | > >> / >> \ <-----TENSION | <-----Compression >> / >> \ MEMBER | >Member >> / >> \ | > >> / >> \ | > >> / >> \ | > >> / >> \ | > >> / >> \ | > >> / >> \ | > >> / >> \ | > >> / >> \ | > >> / >> \ >| >> / >> \ > | >> / >> \ >| >> / >> \ > >> | / >> \ > >> | / >> \ | > >> / >> \ | / >> \ | / >> | >> >> >> Lighter than the compression member only idea, and only a little >heavier >> than the tension only, especially since it should reduce the >shielding >> problem. >> >> Jim >> >Your use of combined spaces and tabs for the ASCII art above, >together with your (or list's?) mailer bad habit of automatically >breaking longer lines made the construction above unreadable... >Though I catched the general idea, please redraw the design >(shorter lines, space-only character padding) to make it sneak >undamaged through our too-intelligent mail software... > >-- Zenon > Oops, sorry bout' that. Here goes again. payload --> OO compression mbr. || _________________ __________________ \ || / \ || / \ || / \ || / \ || / tension mbr. \ || / \ || / \ || / \ || / || Hope this is better. The sail pulls a column that passes through the sail, with the payload on top, away from the Earth side of the sail. Jim From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 08:53 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["560" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "08:52:52" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "13" "Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA11921 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA11898 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:53:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [198.68.17.19]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA29446 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA20572; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:52:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707211552.IAA20572@tzadkiel.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <199707211449.QAA07291@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> References: <199707211449.QAA07291@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> X-Mailer: VM 6.33 under 19.15p7 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 559 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:52:52 -0700 Zenon Kulpa writes: > Your use of combined spaces and tabs for the ASCII art above, > together with your (or list's?) mailer bad habit of automatically > breaking longer lines made the construction above unreadable... > Though I catched the general idea, please redraw the design > (shorter lines, space-only character padding) to make it sneak > undamaged through our too-intelligent mail software... Any formatting problems seen on this mailing list are those of the sender; neither sendmail nor majordomo does any reformatting of message bodies. From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 09:00 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4016" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "17:43:34" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "95" "Re: starship-design: PseudoScience?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id JAA14493 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 09:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.40]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA14440 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 09:00:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id RAA07336; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 17:43:34 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707211543.RAA07336@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa Content-Type: text Content-Length: 4015 From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, stk@sunherald.infi.net Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: starship-design: PseudoScience? Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 17:43:34 +0200 (MET DST) > From: kyle > > I did not say I believed everything in those web pages. Some of these so > called "Contactees" are about the weirdest people around. > > I'm currently having to contend with two groups: > A: So called "pseudoscientists", who believe every crazy idea > that comes along > B: So called "hard scientists", who refuse to listen to facts that are > unusual or hard to accept. > > Both groups are wrong. We need to have conclusive proof of theory before > accepting it, but the scientific community needs to listen to new ideas > and try them. I really don't care if it violates physics, as several > things have before, and we use them today. The scientific community has > become hotheaded in thinking we know almost everything there is to know. > We don't know 1/1000th of what we think we know. I suppose this is human > nature. > Of course I must agree (mostly...). However, as someone said, extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. Scientists making such claims do not cry about "conspiracy" if other scientists doubt in their claims and ask for more evidence. And then they work hard to provide that evidence and they withdraw their claim when hard evidence does not materialize, without vails of being "not listened to" or otherwise suppressed. This is how real science works. > I wonder why no one is cut down when bringing in a concept like > "cellular universe" or Lorentz contraction, (neither of which has been > proven, which violates everything said here), > Concerning "cellural universe" it was pure speculation of the "what if..." type, nobody discussing it claimed it to be at all sure and ready for use in designing starships or whatever. Such discussions on the speculative-hypothetical level are valuable, if only to open minds for wider space of possibilities, provided everybody understands them for what they are - just speculative-hypothetical thought experiments. Concerning Lorents contraction - see the answer by Steve. > but when I bring up a > concept, I'm instantly shot down with a barrage of messages > whose basic line is: don't bring up something you can't prove. > You are not simply "bringing up a concept". You are additionally claiming that is it sure, proven [here a few WWW links], working and ready to mount on a starship. And this certainly may be a little unnerving... > If you > want some example of commonly accepted science that has never been > proved, e-mail me. There's something not right here if unproven ideas > invented by proffesionals are accepted, but amatuer's ideas are canned. > The answer is simple - professionals, just because of their professionalism and experience, far more often than amateurs bring up ideas that are eventually proven to be valid. This of course does not mean - and nobody at this list said that - that amateur's ideas are certainly always wrong, just because they have been brought up by an amateur. But they deserve at least the same (or even larger) amount of doubt and requests for hard evidence as any others' ideas. Certainly, the holy fervor of their proponents is NOT evidence enough. Nobody (almost) listened to Wright brothers before their plane flied safely in the air several times. > Kyle Mcallister > > P.S.: I'm not taking this personally, but speaking in the name of science. > As it was remarked by Steve, become a scientist before you try to speak in the name of science. And I must warn you - it is a very tiresome and often unrewarding job. Generating great ideas is only a tiny part of it. 99.9% of science is painstaking testing and search for evidence (and error) - all too often ending with the "false!" answer... Are you ready for that toil, Kyle? Otherwise, you will be nothing more than an amateur pseudoscientist, generating tens of unsubstantiated ideas a minute (that is VERY easy) and crying about "conspiracies", suppression of thought by "hard scientists", and the like. The choice is yours. Best wishes, -- Zenon From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 09:05 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2042" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "18:04:05" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "50" "Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id JAA15604 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.40]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA15593 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 09:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id SAA07363; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 18:04:05 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707211604.SAA07363@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2041 From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 18:04:05 +0200 (MET DST) > From: jimaclem@juno.com > > Oops, sorry bout' that. Here goes again. > > payload --> OO > compression mbr. || > _________________ __________________ > \ || > / > \ || > / > \ || > / > \ || / > \ || / > tension mbr. \ || / > \ || / > \ || / > \ || / > || > > Hope this is better. The sail pulls a column that passes through the > sail, with the payload on top, away from the Earth side of the sail. > Sorry, did not work this time either. Did you compose the art using fixed font? If your mailer uses a proportional font, the effects would be just that, on any receiver's screen using different font than yours (e.g., on mine - the standard fixed font like Courier or Monospaced used by most mailers). And note also a strange line I have found in the header of your mail: > X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-58,60-95,97,99,101-109,111-113 Concerning the idea itself, I have doubts: - the central compression column must quite thick, hence heavy: the problem is not so much with compression strength as with bending of long (relative to width) objects compressed lengthwise (the effect is called "buckling" if I am not mistaken). - the construction will be rather unstable (like Wright brothers early planes, with their tail-first design): the central column wil tend to veer to the sides. The parachute design seems much better; the payload can be shielded from the beam by a small sail supported by correspondingly small truss structure. -- Zenon From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 10:07 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3715" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "18:57:51" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "101" "Re: starship-design: Re: magnetic monopoles" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id KAA07901 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.40]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA07876 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id SAA07406; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 18:57:51 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707211657.SAA07406@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa Content-Type: text Content-Length: 3714 From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: magnetic monopoles Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 18:57:51 +0200 (MET DST) > From: kyle > > Timothy van der Linden wrote: > > > > Kyle, > > > > >Do not worry, fellow starship designers. I will make little input from > > >here on out. I have found another group that appreciates my input > > >better. No offense to anyone. > > > > Well, you owe us a message as soon as your magnetic monopole definately > > turns out to be a fake or a hit. > > > Since the magnetic lines aren't broken, I suppose its not a monopole. I > preffer not to call it a fake, as that would imply that I tried to fool > people, and make me look stupid. > I simply call it a failed expiriment. > OK, let us not call it a fake... > It does put out all north fields (outside), but if this doesn't count as > monopolar, I give up. > It cannod be called monopole, as it has two poles, that are not physically separated. Timothy shown its possible construction in his drawing, repeated below in modified form: _ _ _ _ _ / \ / \ / \ / \ / etc.. | || | || ++N++ || ++N++ || + | + || + | + || + ^ + vv + ^ + vv + | + || + | + || ++S++ || ++S++ || | || | || \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_ etc... If you fold it into a sphere, with all south poles at the center and north poles on the surface, the north poles of the constituting magnets would be put out outside, and the south poles completely hidden inside the sphere - or so it seems... However, in a magnet there are no special physical points that can be called a "pole" at which the objects attracted by a magnet stop and go no further (as it goes with electrical charge). The poles are only convenient names of the parts of the magnets to/from which the lines of force go, the name of the pole being determined by the direction of the lines of force at this region. [Note that outside the magnet the lines go N->S, whereas inside it - in the opposite direction S->N] In the construction above, the lines of force of the field go out of north poles, then bend back into the surface of the sphere to join the south poles in the center. Where they are dipping into the surface of the sphere, they go in OPPOSITE direction than at the sticking-out north poles, hence their direction defines at these spots SOUTH poles on the surface of the sphere. Hence, the surface of the sphere such constructed appears as a mosaic of north and south poles, as follows: N S N S _ _ _ _ _ / \ / \ / \ / \ / etc... ^ vv ^ vv ++N++ || ++N++ || + | + || + | + || This is neatly confirmed by the behaviour of your testing magnet, to quote from your earlier letter: > Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 15:58:02 -0700 > From: kyle > > [...] I tried testing it with another permanent magnet, which > quickly began to vibrate, and tried to switch sides. (N/S) > As was pointed out by Timothy, you just cannot construct a monopole from dipoles (possibly, unless you can severely warp the space itself...). -- Zenon PS. Concerning scientists, professionals, and amateurs: The though experiment and analysis done above is just what should be made by a scientist (or professional) BEFORE he/she goes into the open announcing the discovery of some as yet unknown effect or device (like a monopole). If one announces the discovery BEFORE making thorough mental analysis and experimental testing (also followed by thorough analysis, interpretation, and explanation of the obtained results), he/she is an amateur. And when he/she at the same time claims it to be scientific fact (wrongly suppressed by "hard scientists") - he/she is a pseudoscientist. Hope it helps. -- Z From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 10:11 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1403" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "11:11:13" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "37" "Re: starship-design: Re: No comments" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id KAA09636 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:11:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA09570 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-79.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-79.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.79]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA30891 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:11:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33D3A640.1987@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 1402 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: No comments Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:11:13 -0700 Timothy van der Linden wrote: > > Kyle > > >>Well, you owe us a message as soon as your magnetic monopole definately > >>turns out to be a fake or a hit. > >> > >Since the magnetic lines aren't broken, I suppose its not a monopole. I > >preffer not to call it a fake, as that would imply that I tried to fool > >people, and make me look stupid. I simply call it a failed expiriment. > >It does put out all north fields (outside), but if this doesn't count as > >monopolar, I give up. > > Doesn't sound like you at all... Well, no one listened to my monopole idea (not just SSD, but many others). Even if it is a monopole, what's it worth if no one will give me a chance? The people where I'm at won't even talk to me once I say "monopole". > > Oh, I wondered, you wrote that the other group appreciates your input > better. What does that mean concretely? Theoretical ideas. There are some private outfits that support theoretical research better than the scientific community. When I first joined SSD, I thought theory was accepted with open arms, as LeRC did. I was wrong. Steve told me that the reason no one had accepted AG/ZPE ideas was because they hadn't been proven. I now know the reason: The scientific community doesn't give them a chance to prove their ideas. I'm not going to argue over this, since I have all the evidence I need. Its called firsthand expirience. Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 10:22 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1180" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "13:23:42" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "35" "Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id KAA13756 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:22:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA13715 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id NPC01437; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:20:47 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970721.132342.13862.0.jimaclem@juno.com> References: <199707211604.SAA07363@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-16,19-33 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1179 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:23:42 -0400 On Mon, 21 Jul 1997 18:04:05 +0200 (MET DST) Zenon Kulpa writes: >> Hope this is better. The sail pulls a column that passes through >the >> sail, with the payload on top, away from the Earth side of the sail. >> >Sorry, did not work this time either. > >Concerning the idea itself, I have doubts: >- the central compression column must quite thick, hence heavy: > the problem is not so much with compression strength > as with bending of long (relative to width) objects > compressed lengthwise (the effect is called "buckling" > if I am not mistaken). Actually, the central column would be a truss, relatively light-weight but strong. You are correct about buckling, though, the seminal work was by Euler (see any engineering mechanics text, look up Euler's Columns). >- the construction will be rather unstable (like Wright brothers > early planes, with their tail-first design): the central column > wil tend to veer to the sides. > Good point about the stability. >The parachute design seems much better; the payload can be >shielded from the beam by a small sail supported by correspondingly >small truss structure. > >-- Zenon > From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 10:29 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4636" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "11:28:37" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "118" "Re: starship-design: PseudoScience?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id KAA17009 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:28:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA16995 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:28:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-79.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-85.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.85]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA01967 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:28:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33D3AA54.44CB@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199707211543.RAA07336@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 4635 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: PseudoScience? Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:28:37 -0700 Zenon Kulpa wrote: > > Of course I must agree (mostly...). > However, as someone said, extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan, I think. > Scientists making such claims do not cry about "conspiracy" I don't believe in these conspiracy ideas. > if other scientists doubt in their claims and ask for more evidence. > And then they work hard to provide that evidence and they withdraw > their claim when hard evidence does not materialize, without > vails of being "not listened to" or otherwise suppressed. > This is how real science works. I can't prove some of my ideas (yet) because I don't have access to space. > > > I wonder why no one is cut down when bringing in a concept like > > "cellular universe" or Lorentz contraction, (neither of which has been > > proven, which violates everything said here), > > > Concerning "cellural universe" it was pure speculation of the > "what if..." type, nobody discussing it claimed it to be > at all sure and ready for use in designing starships or whatever. > Such discussions on the speculative-hypothetical level are valuable, > if only to open minds for wider space of possibilities, > provided everybody understands them for what they are - > just speculative-hypothetical thought experiments. > Concerning Lorents contraction - see the answer by Steve. I still say this: No one has propelled a macroscopic object up to near 99.999+ lightspeed, with an inboard propulsion system, and seen what happened. As steve pointed out, actions on the quantum level don't necessarily apply to the material world. Who knows? Maybe the limit on material objects (unlikely) is 50%C. As said: show me the evidence. > > > but when I bring up a > > concept, I'm instantly shot down with a barrage of messages > > whose basic line is: don't bring up something you can't prove. > > > You are not simply "bringing up a concept". > You are additionally claiming that is it sure, > proven [here a few WWW links], working and ready > to mount on a starship. > And this certainly may be a little unnerving... I've given plenty of arguments about that, and I'm not going to say them again. > > > If you > > want some example of commonly accepted science that has never been > > proved, e-mail me. There's something not right here if unproven ideas > > invented by proffesionals are accepted, but amatuer's ideas are canned. > > > The answer is simple - professionals, just because of their > professionalism and experience, far more often than amateurs > bring up ideas that are eventually proven to be valid. > This of course does not mean - and nobody at this list said that - > that amateur's ideas are certainly always wrong, > just because they have been brought up by an amateur. > But they deserve at least the same (or even larger) > amount of doubt and requests for hard evidence as any others' ideas. > Certainly, the holy fervor of their proponents > is NOT evidence enough. > Nobody (almost) listened to Wright brothers before > their plane flied safely in the air several times. > > > Kyle Mcallister > > > > P.S.: I'm not taking this personally, but speaking in the name of science. > > > As it was remarked by Steve, become a scientist before you try > to speak in the name of science. I am a scientist, for I am not too far out, and not too stuffyheaded. I'm right between. If you want to keep calling me pseudoscientist, watch out: one day you may resent that. Also, have you realized in my last few messages how I don't seem to care much about my ideas anymore? Does this please the group? > And I must warn you - it is a very tiresome and often unrewarding job. > Generating great ideas is only a tiny part of it. > 99.9% of science is painstaking testing and search for evidence > (and error) - all too often ending with the "false!" answer... > Are you ready for that toil, Kyle? I have already began. Closer to 99.99%, I think. > > Otherwise, you will be nothing more than an amateur pseudoscientist, > generating tens of unsubstantiated ideas a minute (that is VERY easy) > and crying about "conspiracies", suppression of thought > by "hard scientists", and the like. And what do professional scientists do? Generate tens of unsubstantiated ideas and try to see if their true. Thats what I do. I require proof, but I've seen proof to may things still unnacepted by mainstream science. I hope I live until 2060, just to see how much physics has changed. I'll bet you it will be changed in many a way. > > The choice is yours. The choice is yes, I am a scientist, and will remain so. > > Best wishes, > > -- Zenon Thank you. Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 11:32 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["291" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "14:34:01" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "14" "starship-design: New web site" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA20513 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA20473 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:32:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id OrH01437; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:31:11 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970721.143401.18502.0.jimaclem@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-12 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 290 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: New web site Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:34:01 -0400 To everyone, I have a home page now! There's not much there yet, except a link to the LIT (of course), but please visit and leave comments, suggestions, links, and anything else in my guest book. My URL is: http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/lab/3403 Ya'll come, ya here! :) Jim From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 11:50 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["972" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "12:50:08" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "23" "Re: starship-design: Re: magnetic monopoles" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA28405 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28384 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:50:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-79.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-115.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.115]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA20122 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:50:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33D3BD6F.9E5@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199707211657.SAA07406@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 971 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: magnetic monopoles Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 12:50:08 -0700 Zenon Kulpa wrote: > > PS. Concerning scientists, professionals, and amateurs: > The though experiment and analysis done above is just what > should be made by a scientist (or professional) BEFORE he/she > goes into the open announcing the discovery of some as yet > unknown effect or device (like a monopole). > If one announces the discovery BEFORE making thorough > mental analysis and experimental testing (also followed > by thorough analysis, interpretation, and explanation > of the obtained results), he/she is an amateur. > And when he/she at the same time claims it to be scientific > fact (wrongly suppressed by "hard scientists") - > he/she is a pseudoscientist. > Hope it helps. -- Z I did not announce it as a discovery. I simply said it was interesting and needed looking into. I asked SSD to help me make an analysis, and see if it was really a monopole. So, once again, I'm not a pseudoscientist. Kyle From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 11:52 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["7332" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "20:45:19" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "188" "Re: starship-design: PseudoScience?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA29292 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.40]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA29249 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:52:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id UAA07491; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:45:19 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707211845.UAA07491@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa Content-Type: text Content-Length: 7331 From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: starship-design: PseudoScience? Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:45:19 +0200 (MET DST) > From: kyle > > Zenon Kulpa wrote: > > > > Of course I must agree (mostly...). > > However, as someone said, extraordinary claims > > need extraordinary evidence. > > Carl Sagan, I think. > Thank you for the confirmation. I was not sure. > > Scientists making such claims do not cry about "conspiracy" > > I don't believe in these conspiracy ideas. > That sounds promising ;-) > > if other scientists doubt in their claims and ask for more evidence. > > And then they work hard to provide that evidence and they withdraw > > their claim when hard evidence does not materialize, without > > vails of being "not listened to" or otherwise suppressed. > > This is how real science works. > > I can't prove some of my ideas (yet) because I don't have access to space. > Ehem, I wonder... Usually any sensible physical idea has a lot of different physical consequences. Some of them may require an access to space to be fully tested experimentally, but many would not. Derive rigorously and theoretically these factual consequences of your ideas that CAN be tested here on Earth (I am sure there are many), test them (or publish them so that others can test them), and when they show true, you will have strong arguments with which to go and ask for money on space experiments. In this way relativity was tested too. > > > I wonder why no one is cut down when bringing in a concept like > > > "cellular universe" or Lorentz contraction, (neither of which has been > > > proven, which violates everything said here), > > > > > Concerning "cellural universe" it was pure speculation of the > > "what if..." type, nobody discussing it claimed it to be > > at all sure and ready for use in designing starships or whatever. > > Such discussions on the speculative-hypothetical level are valuable, > > if only to open minds for wider space of possibilities, > > provided everybody understands them for what they are - > > just speculative-hypothetical thought experiments. > > Concerning Lorents contraction - see the answer by Steve. > > I still say this: No one has propelled a macroscopic object up to near > 99.999+ lightspeed, with an inboard propulsion system, and seen what > happened. As steve pointed out, actions on the quantum level don't > necessarily apply to the material world. Who knows? Maybe the limit on > material objects (unlikely) is 50%C. As said: show me the evidence. > I am not a specialist in relativity, so I go by the opinion of specialists in that field. Steve is one (at leat far better than me ;-). I may say, that there is at least a "not forbidden" evidence - current physical theories of space-time are tested at very many points in the range of their applicability, and nothing in them prevents the possibility of macroscopic objects flying near light speed. And being contracted/time dilated at that. Of course, we cannot be sure. But because it fits into a theory otherwise very well tested, we can be many times more sure that it will work that way than not - the latter claim backed only by a word of honor of certain Kyle Mcallister ;-) > > > but when I bring up a > > > concept, I'm instantly shot down with a barrage of messages > > > whose basic line is: don't bring up something you can't prove. > > > > > You are not simply "bringing up a concept". > > You are additionally claiming that is it sure, > > proven [here a few WWW links], working and ready > > to mount on a starship. > > And this certainly may be a little unnerving... > > I've given plenty of arguments about that, and I'm not going to say them > and I'm not going to say them again. > How come I did not see them? > > > If you > > > want some example of commonly accepted science that has never been > > > proved, e-mail me. There's something not right here if unproven ideas > > > invented by proffesionals are accepted, but amatuer's ideas are canned. > > > > > The answer is simple - professionals, just because of their > > professionalism and experience, far more often than amateurs > > bring up ideas that are eventually proven to be valid. > > This of course does not mean - and nobody at this list said that - > > that amateur's ideas are certainly always wrong, > > just because they have been brought up by an amateur. > > But they deserve at least the same (or even larger) > > amount of doubt and requests for hard evidence as any others' ideas. > > Certainly, the holy fervor of their proponents > > is NOT evidence enough. > > Nobody (almost) listened to Wright brothers before > > their plane flied safely in the air several times. > > > > > Kyle Mcallister > > > > > > P.S.: I'm not taking this personally, > > > but speaking in the name of science. > > > > > As it was remarked by Steve, become a scientist before you try > > to speak in the name of science. > > I am a scientist, for I am not too far out, and not too stuffyheaded. > I'm right between. If you want to keep calling me pseudoscientist, watch > out: one day you may resent that. > Huh? You will throw me out of my research position? ;-)) > Also, have you realized in my last few > messages how I don't seem to care much about my ideas anymore? > Does this please the group? > No. We were displeased NOT by your CARING for your ideas, but by advancing them frocibly with only your holy fervor as the evidence. It is quite bad you do not care for them any longer - you should still care enough, either to work toward finding more hard evidence for them, or toward disproving them (you know, the negative result is also a valuable scientific result - spares a lot of time of other researchers spent on wandering in blind alleys). > > And I must warn you - it is a very tiresome and often unrewarding job. > > Generating great ideas is only a tiny part of it. > > 99.9% of science is painstaking testing and search for evidence > > (and error) - all too often ending with the "false!" answer... > > Are you ready for that toil, Kyle? > > I have already began. Closer to 99.99%, I think. > Good news! > > Otherwise, you will be nothing more than an amateur pseudoscientist, > > generating tens of unsubstantiated ideas a minute (that is VERY easy) > > and crying about "conspiracies", suppression of thought > > by "hard scientists", and the like. > > And what do professional scientists do? Generate tens of unsubstantiated > ideas and try to see if their true. Thats what I do. I require proof, > but I've seen proof to may things still unnacepted by mainstream > science. > Not everything seen as proof (especially by a beginneer in the trade) is indeed a proof. One of the qualities of a scientist (hard and long to learn too) is an ability to find holes and weak spots in "proofs" (including his/her own). [Remember also Sagan words, and read something about Randi and the Skeptical Inquirer.] > I hope I live until 2060, just to see how much physics has > changed. I'll bet you it will be changed in many a way. > Easy bet. Everybody knows that much. But can you specify what and how it changes? If you can, you are really a GREAT scientist (or a Prophet... ;-) > > The choice is yours. > > The choice is yes, I am a scientist, and will remain so. > Good to hear that. Provided we understand the word "scientist" in the same way. Best wishes, -- Zenon From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 12:12 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1755" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "21:03:23" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "44" "Re: starship-design: Re: magnetic monopoles" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id MAA09417 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 12:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.40]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA09291 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 12:12:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id VAA07511; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:03:23 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707211903.VAA07511@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1754 From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: magnetic monopoles Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:03:23 +0200 (MET DST) > From: kyle > > Zenon Kulpa wrote: > > > > PS. Concerning scientists, professionals, and amateurs: > > The though experiment and analysis done above is just what > > should be made by a scientist (or professional) BEFORE he/she > > goes into the open announcing the discovery of some as yet > > unknown effect or device (like a monopole). > > If one announces the discovery BEFORE making thorough > > mental analysis and experimental testing (also followed > > by thorough analysis, interpretation, and explanation > > of the obtained results), he/she is an amateur. > > And when he/she at the same time claims it to be scientific > > fact (wrongly suppressed by "hard scientists") - > > he/she is a pseudoscientist. > > Hope it helps. -- Z > > I did not announce it as a discovery. I simply said it was interesting > and needed looking into. I asked SSD to help me make an analysis, and > see if it was really a monopole. > Are you satisfied by my analysis? The problem is, you did not describe your design in enough details so that one can attempt a proper analysis. Timothy's design was a (probable) guess, but since you did not dismiss it, I have considered it valid and hence worth some analysis. Before that, your claim could be dismissed only on general grounds (you cannot make a monopole from dipoles...), or using the First Skeptical Rule of Thumb: if it is that simple, it should have been invented long ago... Both ways it is not foolproof disproof (nice phrase, indeed), and you somehow seemed offended by our skepticism... > So, once again, I'm not a pseudoscientist. > That is good news, really... And proves my definitions were of help too ;-) -- Zenon From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 13:02 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3190" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "14:01:51" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "87" "Re: starship-design: PseudoScience?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id NAA01451 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA01437 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-79.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-102.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.102]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA07168 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:02:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33D3CE3E.6A73@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199707211845.UAA07491@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 3189 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: PseudoScience? Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:01:51 -0700 Zenon Kulpa wrote: > > Huh? You will throw me out of my research position? ;-)) Is hould have specified: that comment wasn't directed at you, but people that label me as stupid. What I meant was: People may resent calling me a fool (like the scientists nearby [missisipi] when I mentioned the monopole idea). I do not wish to throw any of you out of your positions, even if it was possible. We need more scientists (contactees need not apply). Sorry I wasn't more clear. > > > Also, have you realized in my last few > > messages how I don't seem to care much about my ideas anymore? > > Does this please the group? > > > No. > We were displeased NOT by your CARING for your ideas, > but by advancing them frocibly with only your holy fervor as the evidence. > It is quite bad you do not care for them any longer - > you should still care enough, either to work toward finding > more hard evidence for them, or toward disproving them > (you know, the negative result is also a valuable scientific result - > spares a lot of time of other researchers spent on wandering in > blind alleys). Good point. I guess I should continue research. Perhaps something else useful will be found (medical research, etc.) > > > > And I must warn you - it is a very tiresome and often unrewarding job. > > > Generating great ideas is only a tiny part of it. > > > 99.9% of science is painstaking testing and search for evidence > > > (and error) - all too often ending with the "false!" answer... > > > Are you ready for that toil, Kyle? > > > > I have already began. Closer to 99.99%, I think. > > > Good news! > > > > Otherwise, you will be nothing more than an amateur pseudoscientist, > > > generating tens of unsubstantiated ideas a minute (that is VERY easy) > > > and crying about "conspiracies", suppression of thought > > > by "hard scientists", and the like. > > > > And what do professional scientists do? Generate tens of unsubstantiated > > ideas and try to see if their true. Thats what I do. I require proof, > > but I've seen proof to may things still unnacepted by mainstream > > science. > > > Not everything seen as proof (especially by a beginneer in the trade) > is indeed a proof. > One of the qualities of a scientist (hard and long to learn too) > is an ability to find holes and weak spots in "proofs" > (including his/her own). > > [Remember also Sagan words, and read something about Randi > and the Skeptical Inquirer.] > > > I hope I live until 2060, just to see how much physics has > > changed. I'll bet you it will be changed in many a way. > > > Easy bet. Everybody knows that much. > But can you specify what and how it changes? > If you can, you are really a GREAT scientist (or a Prophet... ;-) Prophecy is a dangerous thing: make one mistake, and religious fanatics stone you (literally)! As far as being a great scientist, one that comes to mind that made many true predictions is Arthur C. Clarke. > > > > The choice is yours. > > > > The choice is yes, I am a scientist, and will remain so. > > > Good to hear that. > Provided we understand the word "scientist" in the same way. I think so. > > Best wishes, > > -- Zenon And to you, Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 13:06 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1121" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "14:06:38" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "31" "Re: starship-design: Re: magnetic monopoles" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id NAA02854 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:06:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA02772 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-79.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-102.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.102]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA12039 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:06:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33D3CF5D.4F3A@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199707211903.VAA07511@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 1120 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: magnetic monopoles Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:06:38 -0700 Zenon Kulpa wrote: > > Are you satisfied by my analysis? Yes. > The problem is, you did not describe your design in enough > details so that one can attempt a proper analysis. > Timothy's design was a (probable) guess, but since you > did not dismiss it, I have considered it valid > and hence worth some analysis. > Before that, your claim could be dismissed only on general grounds > (you cannot make a monopole from dipoles...), > or using the First Skeptical Rule of Thumb: > if it is that simple, it should have been invented long ago... > Both ways it is not foolproof disproof (nice phrase, indeed), > and you somehow seemed offended by our skepticism... No, I wasn't offended. Email makes it hard to distinguish moods. I'll send the schematics later on (sometime this evening). It's not spherical, and probably isn't a monopole, but it is useful in some ways. > > > So, once again, I'm not a pseudoscientist. > > > That is good news, really... > And proves my definitions were of help too ;-) Your defenitions were quite helpful indeed. I am new, so I need pointing in the right direction on occasion. From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 13:23 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1027" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "14:22:50" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" "<33D3D32A.553D@sunherald.infi.net>" "31" "starship-design: Black holes: a mystery" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id NAA09956 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA09942 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:23:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-79.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-73.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.73]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA10567 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:23:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33D3D32A.553D@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199707010114.SAA04638@watt> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 1026 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Black holes: a mystery Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:22:50 -0700 Greetings: Ken Wharton sent me this puzzle awhile back, and I haven't figured it out yet. Perhaps some of you have ideas? It's a well-established idea in physics that there's no such thing as action- at-a-distance. All forces are intermediated by particles. Electromagnetism is passed around by photons, gravity is transmitted with gravity waves (or gravitons) etc. So what happens when you're just outside of a black hole's event horizon? Something is pulling you toward the black hole, very powerfully, but what? If gravitons are emerging from the black hole to pull you in, then they must be travelling faster than light; not even light can escape a black hole. So how can gravitons escape?? The traditional answer might say that these gravitons are "virtual", so they can travel faster than light, but that merely passes on the question of what a virtual graviton (or photon) really is. Does it exist? If so, how can it travel FTL? Does it transmit information FTL? If not, why not? Good luck. Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 13:44 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1519" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "16:44:49" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "45" "Re: starship-design: Black holes: a mystery" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id NAA18722 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:43:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA18708 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id QwW01437; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:42:05 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970721.164449.3222.0.jimaclem@juno.com> References: <199707010114.SAA04638@watt> <33D3D32A.553D@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-35,41-43 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1518 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: stk@sunherald.infi.net Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Black holes: a mystery Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:44:49 -0400 On Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:22:50 -0700 kyle writes: >Greetings: >Ken Wharton sent me this puzzle awhile back, and I haven't figured it >out yet. Perhaps some of you have ideas? > >It's a well-established idea in physics that there's no such thing as >action- >at-a-distance. All forces are intermediated by particles. >Electromagnetism >is passed around by photons, gravity is transmitted with gravity waves >(or >gravitons) etc. > >So what happens when you're just outside of a black hole's event >horizon? >Something is pulling you toward the black hole, very powerfully, but >what? >If gravitons are emerging from the black hole to pull you in, then >they >must be travelling faster than light; not even light can escape a >black >hole. So how can gravitons escape?? > >The traditional answer might say that these gravitons are "virtual", >so >they can travel faster than light, but that merely passes on the >question of what >a virtual graviton (or photon) really is. Does it exist? If so, how >can it >travel FTL? Does it transmit information FTL? If not, why not? > >Good luck. > >Kyle Mcallister > Well, I'm no physicist, but here is my two cents worth. If you model space-time as a compressible fluid, and the presence mass causes this fluid to compress, then you need no transmission, or, put it another way, space-time itself is the transmitter. This is pure hypothesis, and I have no details yet on how well this model works. I'll post them when I finish with them. Jim From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 14:20 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2869" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "14:20:02" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "51" "starship-design: Black holes: a mystery" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id OAA02653 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA02620 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [198.68.17.19]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA15483 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:19:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) id OAA21352; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:20:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707212120.OAA21352@tzadkiel.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <33D3D32A.553D@sunherald.infi.net> References: <199707010114.SAA04638@watt> <33D3D32A.553D@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.33 under 19.15p7 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 2868 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Black holes: a mystery Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:20:02 -0700 kyle writes: > So what happens when you're just outside of a black hole's event > horizon? Something is pulling you toward the black hole, very > powerfully, but what? If gravitons are emerging from the black hole > to pull you in, then they must be travelling faster than light; not > even light can escape a black hole. So how can gravitons escape?? It's a common misconception that what prevents you from escaping from a black hole is an escape velocity faster than light. Unfortunately this is both relativistically meaningless and not borne out by a more careful analysis of how black holes work. Just the finite radius and mass of a black hole will tell you that its escape velocity is less than c, even taking general relativistic effects into account. When I was about your age, Kyle, I used purely classical means to derive an expression for black hole radius-vs.-mass that I later learned was off by a factor of two because I didn't know general relativity. Such are the perils of being a young physics student. My analysis was based on escape _energy_; if it takes more energy than a particle contains for it to escape, then it cannot. What really makes a black hole inescapable is that once you pack enough mass within a critical radius the spacetime curvature within that radius become degenerate. All movement in space or time leads inexorably towards the central singularity; you can't escape and you can't even stand still. I don't think that even moving faster than light would help; you'd just get to the singularity faster. Black hole evaporation is the result of virtual particle creation, but the virtual particles escape not because they travel faster than light, but because they are created just above the event horizon, and hence are capable of escaping if they have enough energy. Black holes evaporate at a rate dependent on their mass, where much more massive black holes with less extreme gravity gradients evaporate at an almost imperceptible rate and small black holes evaporate rapidly, even explosively at the end. Quantum black holes, unless they were continually supplied with mass, all would have evaporated by now, and forming new ones is difficult because the high rate of evaporation makes it difficult to pump enough mass into them to keep them from evaporating away. Furthermore, gravitons are pretty speculative at this point; although quantum mechanics and general relativity are both successful, well-tested theories they have not been combined into a well-accepted unified theory. Einstein tried for much of his career but his inability to accept certain aspects of quantum mechanics probably kept him from succeeding. We do know that there are concentrations of mass in the universe that appear to be black holes, both from their characteristic radiation and the movement of mass in their vicinity. From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 15:23 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2762" "Tue" "22" "July" "1997" "00:18:13" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "64" "Re: starship-design: Re: No comments" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA29067 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:23:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA28994 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-026.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wqQrw-000EtmC; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 00:23:52 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 2761 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: No comments Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 00:18:13 +0100 Kyle, >> Doesn't sound like you at all... > >Well, no one listened to my monopole idea (not just SSD, but many >others). Even if it is a monopole, what's it worth if no one will give >me a chance? The people where I'm at won't even talk to me once I say >"monopole". I think the main reason for people not to take you as serious as you like, is your firmness while having only little proof. I never saw you write: "I might have missed that". True you might not have missed anything, but that would be extremely unlikely with the relative crude measurements you did. Besides all this, it helps enourmously if you have some explanation/theory about the phenomena you discover. Such a theory will allow you and others to explore the phenomenon in other ways. >> Oh, I wondered, you wrote that the other group appreciates your input >> better. What does that mean concretely? > >Theoretical ideas. There are some private outfits that support >theoretical research better than the scientific community. When I first >joined SSD, I thought theory was accepted with open arms, as LeRC did. I >was wrong. > >Steve told me that the reason no one had accepted AG/ZPE ideas was >because they hadn't been proven. I now know the reason: The scientific >community doesn't give them a chance to prove their ideas. I'm not going >to argue over this, since I have all the evidence I need. Its called >firsthand expirience. True, life would be a lot easier if everybody gave one another chances. However if we give too many chances, we will be overwhelmed and can't help anyone. To avoid this overload, there are many unwritten rules. Discovering these rules is not an easy thing. Not following these necessary rules, one may find himself in a void. First hand experience is good, it keeps you going. However you should enable to let others experience at first hand too. It seems unreasonable to expect others to believe extraordinary claims without some explanation. I've given you several chances, and I still do, but you should us give chances too; The information you've given us is quite little (like Zenon notes). In fact I still don't know if the monopole you wrote about is the same as the design we discussed in a private mailing. Furthermore, you should have responded to my possible explanation for your measured effect. And when I think back to the private mailing, you weren't really bothered by the fact, that the effect you wanted to measure was not clearly measurable the way you did. Summarizing: - Give others chances by clearly and orderly showing the information you have. - If people suggest mistakes in your approach, responding adequately will keep their interest. - Trying to find an explanation/theory will help yourself and others. Timothy From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 15:24 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["401" "Tue" "22" "July" "1997" "00:18:12" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "14" "Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA00046 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:24:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA29861 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:24:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-026.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wqQru-000EunC; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 00:23:50 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 400 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 00:18:12 +0100 Regarding problem 12b: I'd wanted to mention the Euler instability (didn't know it had a name though), but assumed that if we could not control the sail, then using any sail-design would be a mistake. Writing this I realize that we may be able to control a sail-design if it has less inherent instability. My best guess is to use a parashute-model and shield the relative small payload. Timothy From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 15:54 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3429" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "16:54:40" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "75" "Re: starship-design: Re: No comments" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA14792 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA14729 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-79.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-80.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.80]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA23080 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 18:54:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33D3F6C0.51E0@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 3428 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: No comments Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:54:40 -0700 Timothy van der Linden wrote: > I think the main reason for people not to take you as serious as you like, > is your firmness while having only little proof. > I never saw you write: "I might have missed that". True you might not have > missed anything, but that would be extremely unlikely with the relative > crude measurements you did. > > Besides all this, it helps enourmously if you have some explanation/theory > about the phenomena you discover. Such a theory will allow you and others to > explore the phenomenon in other ways. > > >> Oh, I wondered, you wrote that the other group appreciates your input > >> better. What does that mean concretely? > > > >Theoretical ideas. There are some private outfits that support > >theoretical research better than the scientific community. When I first > >joined SSD, I thought theory was accepted with open arms, as LeRC did. I > >was wrong. > > > >Steve told me that the reason no one had accepted AG/ZPE ideas was > >because they hadn't been proven. I now know the reason: The scientific > >community doesn't give them a chance to prove their ideas. I'm not going > >to argue over this, since I have all the evidence I need. Its called > >firsthand expirience. > > True, life would be a lot easier if everybody gave one another chances. > However if we give too many chances, we will be overwhelmed and can't help > anyone. > To avoid this overload, there are many unwritten rules. Discovering these > rules is not an easy thing. Not following these necessary rules, one may > find himself in a void. > > First hand experience is good, it keeps you going. However you should enable > to let others experience at first hand too. It seems unreasonable to expect > others to believe extraordinary claims without some explanation. > > I've given you several chances, and I still do, but you should us give > chances too; The information you've given us is quite little (like Zenon notes). > In fact I still don't know if the monopole you wrote about is the same as > the design we discussed in a private mailing. I didn't think we discussed monopoles in private, just DST's (which I'm leery to test, due to the X-rays. Maybe if I did it from a distance I would be safe? I'll send my design diagrams to everyone on SSD as soon as I can. I assure you, I'll send them at latest, by tommorow. > > Furthermore, you should have responded to my possible explanation for your > measured effect. I thought it was self-answerable: I placed the compass near the device, and the needle reversed direction, with the north end pointing towards the device. If I placed the compass on the other side, it reversed again, the same way. I tried with angles, circling the device, on top,underneath, and nowhere did the south end stay towards the device. Maybe even if its not a monopole, it might still have a useful purpose. > And when I think back to the private mailing, you weren't really bothered by > the fact, that the effect you wanted to measure was not clearly measurable > the way you did. Afraid I don't understand what you mean... > > Summarizing: > - Give others chances by clearly and orderly showing the information you have. > - If people suggest mistakes in your approach, responding adequately will keep > their interest. > - Trying to find an explanation/theory will help yourself and others. Good points. I'll try to abide by them from now on. Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 16:10 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1514" "Tue" "22" "July" "1997" "01:05:16" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "43" "Re: starship-design: Black holes: a mystery" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id QAA25663 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA25584 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-026.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wqRbS-000FCbC; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 01:10:54 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1513 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Black holes: a mystery Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 01:05:16 +0100 Reply to Steve and Kyle: Steve, >What really makes a black hole inescapable is that once you pack enough >mass within a critical radius the spacetime curvature within that radius >become degenerate. All movement in space or time leads inexorably >towards the central singularity; you can't escape and you can't even >stand still. I don't think that even moving faster than light would >help; you'd just get to the singularity faster. Hmm, I'd say all movement through space would lead to the singularity. Movement through time however is a hope, unfortunately you'd need to go back in time though. Timothy ============================================================================= Kyle, Some years ago, I discovered Ken's puzzle myself. Not being able to solve it, I asked a theoretical physics teacher. The conditional answer he had after 1 day of preparation time was: The surface of the black hole is a dense network of gravitons. From what I understood, these gravitons can "communicate" both with the inside and outside (and thus can represent the mass that is inside). In my own words, I'd tend to use the rubbersheet approach. Even though the properties of the sheet change from inside to outside the event horizon, they are still connected in some way. The stresses in the sheet are exchanged, otherwise the sheet would let loose. To use Jim's two cents: space-time itself is the transmitter. Sofar, I'd say the puzzle is solved, but needs prove to exclude other possibilities. Timothy From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 19:40 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1332" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "21:00:51" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "28" "RE: starship-design: Re: magnetic monopoles" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA01342 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:40:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA01333 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:40:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p9.gnt.com (x2p7.gnt.com [204.49.68.212]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA09752 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:40:51 -0500 Received: by x2p9.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC961E.C1B6CFE0@x2p9.gnt.com>; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:40:50 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC961E.C1B6CFE0@x2p9.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by darkwing.uoregon.edu id TAA01334 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1331 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Re: magnetic monopoles Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:00:51 -0500 Kyle, If you simply wait a little while you will find that your spherical dipole will quickly realign its magnetic fields to produce two EXTERNAL magnetic poles. ANY groups of magnets that are truly joined (fused) into a single magnet show this property. The charge distributes (redistributes) itself evenly over the new magnet. Even temporarily, a sufficiently sensitive mapping of the magnetic force lines will reveal the presence of the (temporary) interior magnetic field. As Timothy said, you must test and test again before you announce a new "discovery". Science is replete with miraculous new discoveries that turned out to be something else entirely. However, do not lose hope, just because one idea doesn't work is no reason not to try the next one, sooner or later.... Lee Parker (o o) ------------------------------------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo--------- "Thomas Godfrey, a self-taught mathematician, great in his way . . . knew little out of his way, and was not a pleasing companion; as, like most great mathematicians I have met with, he expected universal precision in everything said, or was forever denying or distinguishing upon trifles, to the disturbance of all conversation." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), Autobiography From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 19:41 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2652" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "21:22:54" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "36" "RE: starship-design: PseudoScience?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA01396 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA01367 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:41:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p9.gnt.com (x2p7.gnt.com [204.49.68.212]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA09774 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:40:58 -0500 Received: by x2p9.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC961E.C562C0E0@x2p9.gnt.com>; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:40:56 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC961E.C562C0E0@x2p9.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by darkwing.uoregon.edu id TAA01381 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 2651 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: PseudoScience? Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:22:54 -0500 Kyle and Zenon, Kyle, could you please find a mail editor that is not a text attachment device? It is like you are coming through a bulletin board system and I know there are plenty of on line systems in your area, I'm in your area. It is real hard to quote you when all I get is a text attachment, it takes a lot of cut and paste activity, and I have to work for a living, I DON'T have the time. Zenon, in regards to: >I still say this: No one has propelled a macroscopic object up to near >99.999+ lightspeed, with an inboard propulsion system, and seen what >happened. As Steve pointed out, actions on the quantum level don't >necessarily apply to the material world. Who knows? Maybe the limit on >material objects (unlikely) is 50%C. As said: show me the evidence. This argument is specious, it works both ways, BECAUSE no one has accelerated a macroscopic object up to 99.999+ lightspeed (or even close) we don't have any idea what the limits, if any, are. I can think of at least one line of argument that PROVES there is no such thing as the speed of light. Of course, like everything else it is merely a mathematical proof and it is subject to revision according to experimental evidence of which there isn't any. Kyle, this brings us back to the point that Steve, Timothy, Zenon, and Kyle keep hitting on. You have not provided ANY facts in the way of a demonstrable, repeatable experiment that another scientist or engineer can duplicate. If you want to be believed, WRITE IT DOWN. If we can't duplicate the experiment, we will find somebody who can. As you yourself pointed out, NASA is interested and I (and Kelly) have friends there. If you can delineate your experiment so that it can be repeated by others and tested for alternative explanations, then it will be accepted. It may take awhile, but the system works. As Steve and Zenon have said, simply screaming "conspiracy" makes you less credible, not more. Lee Parker (o o) ------------------------------------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo--------- "I am afraid the knockabout comedy of modern atomic physics is not very tender towards our aesthetic ideals. The stately drama of stellar evolution turns out to be more like the hair-breadth escapades in the films. The music of the spheres has a painful suggestion of -- jazz." -- Arthur S. Eddington, Stars and Atoms, 1926. -----Original Message----- From: kyle [SMTP:stk@sunherald.infi.net] Sent: Monday, July 21, 1997 1:29 PM To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: PseudoScience? << File: ATT00003.txt; charset = koi8-r >> From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 19:41 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1193" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "21:39:52" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "18" "RE: starship-design: Black holes: a mystery" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA01427 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA01411 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p9.gnt.com (x2p7.gnt.com [204.49.68.212]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA09783 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:41:03 -0500 Received: by x2p9.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC961E.C91DF420@x2p9.gnt.com>; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:41:02 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC961E.C91DF420@x2p9.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by darkwing.uoregon.edu id TAA01416 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1192 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Black holes: a mystery Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:39:52 -0500 Kyle, Ken passed you a good puzzle. Some of the newer theories deal with what gravity actually is rather than describing how it should act. It may be that gravity is somewhat more fundamental than we thought. If space really does have a "fabric" that can be bent then it is possible that the action of gravity (and in certain cases, other forces) could be faster than light. This is just one area where there are currently MANY theories with experimental evidence to back each of them, but no definitive conclusion yet. Your favorite ZPE is intricately woven into most of the theories. Dig deeper, maybe YOU will be the one to figure it out. (I hope you like math...) Lee Parker (o o) ------------------------------------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo--------- "Mere poets are sottish as mere drunkards are, who live in a continual mist, without seeing or judging anything clearly. A man should be learned in several sciences, and should have a reasonable, philosophical and in some measure a mathematical head, to be a complete and excellent poet." -- John Dryden, "Notes and Observations on The Empress of Morocco," 1674 From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 19:52 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["45" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "21:44:46" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "4" "RE: starship-design: Re: No comments" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA04226 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:52:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA04215 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p9.gnt.com (x2p7.gnt.com [204.49.68.212]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA10610 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:52:55 -0500 Received: by x2p9.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC9620.70526860@x2p9.gnt.com>; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:52:52 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC9620.70526860@x2p9.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 44 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Re: No comments Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:44:46 -0500 PROOF = First hand REEXPERIENCE Lee Parker From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 20:05 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["926" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "21:05:46" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "21" "Re: starship-design: Re: magnetic monopoles" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA07795 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA07786 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-79.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-84.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.84]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA05759 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 23:05:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33D4319A.3E06@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <01BC961E.C1B6CFE0@x2p9.gnt.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 925 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: magnetic monopoles Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:05:46 -0700 L. Parker wrote: > > Kyle, > > If you simply wait a little while you will find that your spherical dipole will > quickly realign its magnetic fields to produce two EXTERNAL magnetic poles. ANY > groups of magnets that are truly joined (fused) into a single magnet show this property. The charge distributes (redistributes) itself evenly over the new > magnet. Even temporarily, a sufficiently sensitive mapping of the magnetic force > lines will reveal the presence of the (temporary) interior magnetic field. > > As Timothy said, you must test and test again before you announce a new > "discovery". Science is replete with miraculous new discoveries that turned out > to be something else entirely. However, do not lose hope, just because one idea > doesn't work is no reason not to try the next one, sooner or later.... > Actually, its not made of magnets at all. I promise, I'll post the data soon (tommorow). Kyle From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 20:50 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["388" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "21:49:56" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "9" "starship-design: I never said that!" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA18084 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA18075 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-72.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-72.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.72]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA23790 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 23:50:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33D43BF3.3B35@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 387 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: I never said that! Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:49:56 -0700 I have been sent email many times saying I was screaming "conspiracy! conspiracy!". It's time to put this to rest, once and for all: I NEVER said that. I don't know where that came from, but I don't believe this conspiracy stuff. Think about it: if scientists knew about antigravity/ftl device being built, it would be national news. Scientists don't hide things, they study them. Kyle From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 21:13 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["163" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "22:28:42" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "7" "RE: starship-design: Re: No comments" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA23121 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA23112 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p9.gnt.com (x2p1.gnt.com [204.49.68.206]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA15526 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 23:13:24 -0500 Received: by x2p9.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC962B.B0F2E600@x2p9.gnt.com>; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 23:13:25 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC962B.B0F2E600@x2p9.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by darkwing.uoregon.edu id VAA23113 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 162 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Re: No comments Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 22:28:42 -0500 Kyle, You are not making me feel better. I am well within the fallout zone of even a moderate nuclear explosion in your basement (or your friends). Lee Parker From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 22:44 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["439" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "23:44:38" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "16" "starship-design: X-rays and voltage" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id WAA11155 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 22:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA11144 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 22:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-72.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-115.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.115]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA11108; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 01:44:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33D456D5.5235@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 438 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl Subject: starship-design: X-rays and voltage Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 23:44:38 -0700 Hello Timothy and SSD group: I have a question: Will 200,000 VDC with a current of 1000 microamperes produce dangerous/deadly radiation? If anyone knows how much, please tell me. Also if anyone knows how much shielding will be necessary, or how far away to be, that would be helpful. Will quick termination of voltage be dangerous? Why is the general thought: Kyle's building a doomsday weapon? I'm not _trying_ to. Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Mon Jul 21 22:57 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["984" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "22:57:38" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "30" "starship-design: X-rays and voltage" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id WAA13524 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 22:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA13513 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 22:57:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (cisco-ts6-line12.uoregon.edu [128.223.150.42]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA16399; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 22:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) id WAA22644; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 22:57:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707220557.WAA22644@tzadkiel.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <33D456D5.5235@sunherald.infi.net> References: <33D456D5.5235@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.33 under 19.15p7 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 983 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: kyle Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: X-rays and voltage Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 22:57:38 -0700 kyle writes: > Hello Timothy and SSD group: > > I have a question: > > Will 200,000 VDC with a current of 1000 microamperes produce > dangerous/deadly radiation? Depends on how you use it. That's only 200 watts, but it could produce a pretty good X-ray or microwave flux. Or if you create ultraviolet you could give yourself a sunburn. Or it could give you a nasty shock. Although Ohm's law says that you're pumping this into a 200 megohm device, which is a pretty high resistance. > If anyone knows how much, please tell me. > Also if anyone knows how much shielding will be necessary, or how far > away to be, that would be helpful. > > Will quick termination of voltage be dangerous? Again, it all depends on exactly what you're doing. There's no way to answer the question without knowing what you're putting the electricity into. > Why is the general thought: Kyle's building a doomsday weapon? I'm not > _trying_ to. Kids, don't try this at home :-) From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 03:10 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["837" "Tue" "22" "July" "1997" "12:04:42" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "24" "starship-design: Mailer problems" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id DAA06730 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 03:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA06693 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 03:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-027.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wqbtb-000GpVC; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:10:19 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 836 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Mailer problems Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:04:42 +0100 Lee, You wrote >Kyle and Zenon, > >Kyle, could you please find a mail editor that is not a text attachment device? It is like you are coming through a bulletin board system and I know there are plenty of on line systems in your area, I'm in your area. It is real hard to quote you when all I get is a text attachment, it takes a lot of cut and paste activity, and I have to work for a living, I DON'T have the time. Well, I've the feeling that you've an old or simple Email programme. If I reply letters to you and my Email-programme adds quotation marks > then the above is the result. (Only one quote per sentence instead of per line) The reason that Kyle's letters are attached when you receive them is likely because he uses "charset = koi8-r" in his netscape mailer. Hime changing to a more regualar font might help. Timothy From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 03:10 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2185" "Tue" "22" "July" "1997" "12:04:36" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "49" "Re: starship-design: No comments" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id DAA06801 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 03:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA06774 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 03:10:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-027.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wqbtW-000GpSC; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:10:14 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 2184 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: No comments Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:04:36 +0100 Kyle, >I didn't think we discussed monopoles in private, just DST's (which I'm >leery to test, due to the X-rays. Maybe if I did it from a distance I >would be safe? Certainly saver, X-rays are tricky, there is no way to be sure unless you have a measurement tool or shield the source with something like leadplates. >I'll send my design diagrams to everyone on SSD as soon as I can. I >assure you, I'll send them at latest, by tommorow. Well, if you can create a clear "data-sheet" in such a short time, that's fine. However if you need more time, I'd rather see you take that time instead of showing us something that is not finished. >>Furthermore, you should have responded to my possible explanation for your >>measured effect. > >I thought it was self-answerable: I placed the compass near the device, >and the needle reversed direction, with the north end pointing towards >the device. If I placed the compass on the other side, it reversed >again, the same way. I tried with angles, circling the device, on >top,underneath, and nowhere did the south end stay towards the device. >Maybe even if its not a monopole, it might still have a useful purpose. OK, more concrete, I'd have expected that you ensured me that you took special care not to miss even small parts of the surface. Even now mentioning "circling the device" helps me reassure that you did more than a few unconnected measurements. I'm interested though how you measured on top and underneath. Did you rotate the device so that you could measure once again in the horizontal plane, or do you have a 3 dimensional compass? >> And when I think back to the private mailing, you weren't really bothered by >> the fact, that the effect you wanted to measure was not clearly measurable >> the way you did. > >Afraid I don't understand what you mean... Well, you wanted to measure antigravity while using a device that created a magnetic field also. If I understood correctly you were not able to know what part of the force was caused by magnetivity and what part by gravity. Your answer to this remark didn't really address the problem, and made me believe that you wanted to continue regardless. Timothy From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 03:11 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["500" "Tue" "22" "July" "1997" "12:04:39" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "18" "RE: starship-design: magnetic monopoles" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id DAA06854 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 03:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA06835 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 03:11:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-027.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wqbtY-000GpQC; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:10:16 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 499 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: starship-design: magnetic monopoles Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:04:39 +0100 Lee, >If you simply wait a little while you will find that your spherical dipole will >quickly realign its magnetic fields to produce two EXTERNAL magnetic poles. ANY >groups of magnets that are truly joined (fused) into a single magnet show this >property. Hmmm, do all magnetic spins in a iron bar line up to Earth's magnetic field if you wait long enough? I used to think that if that this process depends on the strenght of the magnets: If they are too strong, they won't change. Timothy From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 03:12 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["265" "Tue" "22" "July" "1997" "12:04:41" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "12" "RE: starship-design: Black holes: a mystery" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id DAA06977 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 03:12:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA06963 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 03:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-027.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wqbta-000GpTC; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:10:18 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 264 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: starship-design: Black holes: a mystery Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:04:41 +0100 Lee, You wrote: >I would rather believe in the rubber sheet than gravitons "communicating", >next you will be claming they are intelligent... Yes, I ment to change that into "interacting", but probably forgot that nice word when I finished the letter. Tim From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 05:03 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["535" "Tue" "22" "July" "1997" "14:02:41" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "15" "RE: starship-design: PseudoScience?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id FAA18153 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 05:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.40]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id FAA18011 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 05:03:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id OAA08252; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:02:41 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707221202.OAA08252@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa Content-Type: text Content-Length: 534 From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: RE: starship-design: PseudoScience? Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:02:41 +0200 (MET DST) > From: "L. Parker" > > Zenon, in regards to: > > >I still say this: No one has propelled a macroscopic object up to near > >99.999+ lightspeed, with an inboard propulsion system, and seen what > >happened. As Steve pointed out, actions on the quantum level don't > >necessarily apply to the material world. Who knows? Maybe the limit on > >material objects (unlikely) is 50%C. As said: show me the evidence. > Sorry, Lee, this is the wrong attribution - the above was written by Kyle, not by me. -- Zenon From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 05:36 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2071" "Tue" "22" "July" "1997" "14:35:54" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "49" "RE: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id FAA22076 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 05:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.40]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id FAA22061 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 05:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id OAA08330; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:35:54 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707221235.OAA08330@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2070 From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: RE: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:35:54 +0200 (MET DST) > From lparker@cacaphony.net Tue Jul 22 04:40:48 1997 > To: "'Zenon Kulpa'" > > Jim and Zenon, > You addressed it to Jim and Zenenon, but as the header shows, you sent it only to me... I am sending my reply to the list, since you ask at the end "Anyone care to comment?"... > In rergards to shielding the cargo aeas of sail powered craft I think > you are worrying too much. > I am not worrying about it. Somebody else worried, and I had only pointed out that it is sufficient, if at all, to screen the payload with a small sail, assuming implicitly that if the beam does not burn the main sail, it cannot burn the small one too (exactly as you write below). > I seem to remember that Forward performed all > of these calculations. I will look them up to be sure. But, anything > with sufficient power to require a lot of shielding on the cargo will > MELT THE SAIL. Ideally, the sail geometry can be varied with time to > maintain constant thrust from a decreasing amount of power per unit of > sail area or we can plan on increasing the amount of power that is > beamed over a period of time. Either way, we just refrain from beaming > TOO much power at the sail. > Something just occurred to me (again) in light of recent discussions > regarding the impact of interstellar hydrogen on the sail, it seems to > me that there is a "terminal velocity" where the pressure from the > photons impactine the back of the sail will exactly balance the pressure > of the hydrogen impacting the front of the sail at relativistic > velocities. This point is probably well short of the speed of light > which would severely limit the usefuleness of sails. I can't recall > having seen any calculations along these lines. Anyone care to comment? > That seems an important observation. My guess is that even more restrictive on the sail speed would be the physical damage inflicted on the sail by the interstellar medium (even the hydrogen atoms, but also other debris, like dust). You cannot shield the entire sail... -- Zenon From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 06:18 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["295" "Tue" "22" "July" "1997" "09:20:08" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "13" "starship-design: JIm's Home Page" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id GAA27467 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 06:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA27417 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 06:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id JhN08905; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 09:18:14 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970722.092009.9158.1.jimaclem@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-2,4-11 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 294 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: JIm's Home Page Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 09:20:08 -0400 Hi again, My page had some problem with the guestbook, but that seems to be fixed. Drop by, My LIT link is getting lonesome. Looking forward to input, links, etc. Back with some SD stuff later today. Jim I FEEL THE NEED, THE NEED FOR EXPEDITIOUS VELOCITY!!!!!!!!!!! Pinky and the Brain From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 06:50 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1137" "Tue" "22" "July" "1997" "09:51:24" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "30" "Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id GAA01787 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 06:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA01730 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 06:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id JsR08905; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 09:48:28 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970722.095124.9158.2.jimaclem@juno.com> References: <199707221235.OAA08330@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-24,27-28 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1136 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 09:51:24 -0400 On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:35:54 +0200 (MET DST) Zenon Kulpa writes: >> Something just occurred to me (again) in light of recent discussions > >> regarding the impact of interstellar hydrogen on the sail, it seems >to >> me that there is a "terminal velocity" where the pressure from the >> photons impactine the back of the sail will exactly balance the >pressure >> of the hydrogen impacting the front of the sail at relativistic >> velocities. This point is probably well short of the speed of light >> which would severely limit the usefuleness of sails. I can't recall >> having seen any calculations along these lines. Anyone care to >comment? >> >That seems an important observation. >My guess is that even more restrictive on the sail speed >would be the physical damage inflicted on the sail by the >interstellar medium (even the hydrogen atoms, but also other debris, >like dust). You cannot shield the entire sail... > >-- Zenon Good points, reminds me that the Bussard Ramjet was expected to have the same drawback with drag interaction between the scoop field and the dust and gas. > From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 07:38 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["383" "Tue" "22" "July" "1997" "10:40:12" "-0400" "Bakelaar" "bakelaar@injersey.com" nil "10" "starship-design: members homepages..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id HAA10459 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 07:38:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nj5.injersey.com (root@nj5.injersey.com [206.139.48.252]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA10416 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 07:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pbakelaar.exit109.com (ppp053-tmrv.injersey.com [206.139.59.53]) by nj5.injersey.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA16329 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:40:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707221440.KAA16329@nj5.injersey.com> X-Sender: bakelaar@injersey.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Bakelaar Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 382 From: Bakelaar Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: members homepages... Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:40:12 -0400 (EDT) hey guys, i was just wondering if anyone has a current list of all the members homepages (those who have homepages anyway)? if not, could everyone please send me their url and i will put the list up on the web? thanks, ben... (sorry i havent been active much lately, you guys are having discussions WAY beyond me, i dont even understand what your talkin about half the time :D) From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 07:48 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["792" "Tue" "22" "July" "1997" "10:50:31" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "28" "Re: starship-design: members homepages..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id HAA12527 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 07:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA12510 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 07:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KKV08905; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:48:11 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970722.105032.3454.0.jimaclem@juno.com> References: <199707221440.KAA16329@nj5.injersey.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-13,15-22,24-26 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 791 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: members homepages... Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:50:31 -0400 On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:40:12 -0400 (EDT) Bakelaar writes: >hey guys, i was just wondering if anyone has a current >list of all the members homepages (those who have homepages >anyway)? if not, could everyone please send me their url >and i will put the list up on the web? thanks, ben... > >(sorry i havent been active much lately, you guys are having > discussions WAY beyond me, i dont even understand what your > talkin about half the time :D) > > Don't feel too bad, sometimes it looks like we don't know what we're talking about either (chuckle). ;););) Anyway, here's my URL http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/lab/3403 Check it out! By the way, check out www.geocities.com and get a FREE WEB PAGE, yep really, no kidding, its really free. Jim Clem From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 08:51 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3391" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "20:18:36" "-0700" "stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu" "stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu" nil "79" "BOUNCE starship-design: Non-member submission from [\"Kevin 'Tex' Houston\" ]" "^Resent-Date:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA09318 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA09307 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:51:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <199707220318.UAA11100@darkwing.uoregon.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 3390 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:51:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-From: Steve VanDevender Resent-Message-Id: <199707221551.IAA09307@darkwing.uoregon.edu> Resent-To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu From: stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu Sender: owner-starship-design Subject: BOUNCE starship-design: Non-member submission from ["Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ] Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:18:36 -0700 (PDT) >From stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu Mon Jul 21 20:18:34 1997 Received: from mhub1.tc.umn.edu (0@mhub1.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.51]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA11077 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pub-15-c-166.dialup.umn.edu by mhub1.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 21 Jul 97 22:18:32 -0500 Message-ID: <33D415D2.4270@email.umn.edu> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:07:14 -0500 From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" Reply-To: hous0042@email.umn.edu X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Starship design group Subject: Re: Aliens, why haven't they contact us? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jimaclem@juno.com wrote: > > On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:42:30 -0400 (EDT) KellySt@aol.com writes: > > > >No way to know. Can't even know anything basic about their celular > >construction or chemistry. > > > > Just a thought to consider folks. All living organisms on this planet, > including viruses have DNA and RNA constructed from the same four > proteins, adenine, cytosine, guanine and tyrosine. (And I do mean ALL > life forms on this planet, from viruses to trees to us). The chances > that an alien microbe, or anything else, would use these same proteins > seem rather small, thus rendering them and us relatively harmless to each > other since we cant read each other's cellular codes. > > Jim BZZZT! Thank you for playing. ;) (sorry, I couldn't help it, I don't often come across a subject that i know a whole lot about in this group, but when I do, I pounce) First, the observational evidence. Large gas coulds in interstellar space have been seen which contain each of these nucleotides in enough abudance to outwiegh the earth. Second the chemical evidence. when simple molecules like ammonia, methane, hydrogen cyanide etc are bombarded with UV, (in the lab here on earth) They often breakdown into these very molecules Third, the theoretical/thermodynamic reasons. Left-handed amino acids and right handed sugars are slightly, (theoretically) more thermodynamically stable. by being in a lower thermodynamic state, these chiralities (fancy word for mirror image) tend to be favored in chemical reactions. Thus any organism that learned to eat carbo-hyddrates would, through evolution, be drawn toward using D-glucose (dextrose) and would thus need proteins (if that's what they used) with a left-handed structure In short, any life that eats sugars and uses proteins, is VERY likely to eat 'our' kind of sugar and use 'our' kind of protein. Chemical codes are a different matter, and would be a triple-edged sword, while some alien microbe might be totally stymied by our chemistry, Others would find it no problem, and some other kid of life might be harmful to us as a side effect of thier own chemistry. Consider a life form that exhaled hydrogen cyanide for example: While they would be adapted to it, we would die in short order. perhaps even killing them with our exhaled carbon dioxide or water. -- Kevin "Tex" Houston http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html Webmaster http://www.urly-bird.com/index.html "Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." A. Einstein From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 08:52 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3602" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "20:18:39" "-0700" "stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu" "stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu" nil "90" "BOUNCE starship-design: Non-member submission from [\"Kevin 'Tex' Houston\" ]" "^Resent-Date:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA09557 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:52:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA09543 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:52:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <199707220318.UAA11121@darkwing.uoregon.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 3601 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-From: Steve VanDevender Resent-Message-Id: <199707221552.IAA09543@darkwing.uoregon.edu> Resent-To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu From: stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu Sender: owner-starship-design Subject: BOUNCE starship-design: Non-member submission from ["Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ] Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:18:39 -0700 (PDT) >From stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu Mon Jul 21 20:18:37 1997 Received: from mhub1.tc.umn.edu (0@mhub1.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.51]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA11102 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:18:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pub-15-c-166.dialup.umn.edu by mhub1.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 21 Jul 97 22:18:35 -0500 Message-ID: <33D42226.44CB@email.umn.edu> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:59:50 -0500 From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" Reply-To: hous0042@email.umn.edu X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Starship design group Subject: Solutions to some of the beaming problems and a new idea References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Timothy van der Linden wrote to Jim: > > You touched the subject beaming (of either a probe or the starship itself). > I'd like you to read a rough summary of all the problems that this group has > come up with so far. > > You should be able to find it here: > > http://www1.tip.nl/~t596675/sd/beaming/beam.html > Nice job Tim. here are some solution ideas for your problems list. #9 redshift causes the momentum to decrease: #15 doppler shift changes reflectivity: Sweeping the beam into higher frequencies, and then back down, as the mission prgresses; would allow the ship to receive it energy at a near constant frequency. Any slight deviations should be within tolerance. #14. communication: Using different wavelengths of EM for engine, comm. for example, if you are using Maser for power, then you should use a laser to communicate. The laser guide beaming messages back to earth could be made of plastic or glass which would be totally immune to microwaves #16 acceleration means limited beaming time. As we say in the Computer Biz, "That's not a bug, that's a feature." This reduces the amount of time the puclic needs to think about all that energy being poured out into space, and decreases the likelyhood that someone will turn the beam off halfway through the mission. either by activly flipping the switch or slow politically motivated starvation. also, since the time rate of the crew slows down near turn-around, they should preceive constant power (J) (providing the beam also sweeps up in frequency) 18 could be solved by moving several large asteroids (or lots of smaller ones) into a proper orbit around the sun. (one that is normal to the line connecting the two suns.) since we'll have to build this thing out in space, I'll bet we have a lot of slag/waste that could be used to 'anchor' the transmitter in place. a conventional rocket or ion engine would be much better for conteracting the beams thrust. ---------start new idea ------------------- Each transmitter could be a stationary fusion rocket with the beam pointed in one direction, and the fusion exhaust (at very low speed) pointed in the other. Since the whole thing is stationary, it could be refueled periodicly by robot tenders. The fusion motor could tap most of the kinetic/thermal energy of the fusion products to provide electricity to power the transmitter, with a little left over kinetic energy and a fair amount of mass to provide a counter balancing force. ---------end new idea -------comments?----- -- Kevin "Tex" Houston http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html Webmaster http://www.urly-bird.com/index.html "Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." A. Einstein From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 08:53 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5488" "Mon" "21" "July" "1997" "21:37:42" "-0700" "stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu" "stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu" nil "153" "BOUNCE starship-design: Non-member submission from [\"Kevin 'Tex' Houston\" ]" "^Resent-Date:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA09629 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA09616 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:53:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <199707220437.VAA27938@darkwing.uoregon.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 5487 Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-From: Steve VanDevender Resent-Message-Id: <199707221553.IAA09616@darkwing.uoregon.edu> Resent-To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu From: stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu Sender: owner-starship-design Subject: BOUNCE starship-design: Non-member submission from ["Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ] Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:37:42 -0700 (PDT) >From stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu Mon Jul 21 21:37:40 1997 Received: from mhub1.tc.umn.edu (0@mhub1.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.51]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA27912 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pub-15-c-166.dialup.umn.edu by mhub1.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 21 Jul 97 23:37:38 -0500 Message-ID: <33D437F7.6512@email.umn.edu> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 23:32:55 -0500 From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" Reply-To: hous0042@email.umn.edu X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Starship design group Subject: Gravity and black holes.... eeep! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok, here's the deal.... I've been thinking about something ever since I was Kyle's age, I've never been able to learn enough math/physics to really take a stab at it, and it is so against standard physical model that to even discuss it would, I fear, make me look stupid. So i never even mentioned the ideas in this forum. That said however, a few recent missives from lee have sent me thinking again, and kyle's flights of fancy have given me the courage to speak up. The idea is one that explains gravity, the speed of light, Lorentz contractions, and black holes...... like i said, eeep! Note: Because I lack the required mathmatics background, there will be much hand-waving. The basic idea is that gravity is produced by our space-time's deceleration in a spatial fourth dimension. Consider a two dimensional universe in the shape of a sphere. From some initial explosion, it is expanding. but because of tension in the surface, it is slowing down. Now consider a round leaden disk placed on the inside of the sphere. the disk will tend to pull the surface out a little bit, and any lifeforms near the surface of the disk will wonder why they are pulled toward the disk. In fact, they are just sliding down the curved 2-D spacetime. perhaps Einstein was more right than he knew, gravity and acceleration are indistinguishable because gravity *is* (de)acceleration. Now imagine a steel BB rolling around the inside of the sphere. because it is moving in a circle (about the center of sphere which it cannot sense) it also undergoes acceleration in the radial direction. This also causes the surface to bulge out slightly (more so, the faster the BB goes) which would also be interpreted by any nearby lifeforms as a gavitational effect (apparent mass increase in near light-speed objects) Since the BB can't 'see' in the third direction, it must preceive itself traveling in a straight line. At some critical speed however, the BB cannot accelerate any further. To do so would be to rip a hole in the surface of the sphere. as the BB accelerates (by turning on it's rocket engine) it tries to move in a 'straight' (for us 3D observers) line, but is prevented by the universe itself (the sphere). If the tension of the universe's material were much like rubber, then there would little resistance at low speeds, but more and more resistance (exponetially even) at higher speeds. Consider a close up view of the sphere (here represented in cross section). because the Object is 2D also, the curved surface appears straight inside | outside | | \ A I I 'Heavy' object I I / | | | | | here the object has only it's 'rest mass' But as the object travels faster and faster, it beigns to push out the side of the Universe (which is actually curved you'll recall) like so: x | x x | | | \ \ \ \ \ \ A \ \ I A IIIIA I II / I II | I | | / | y | | | y y .25 C .75 C .99999 C final case is a little exaggerated perhaps, but I'm sure you get the idea. you'll also note that the surface (2D speak for space) between points x and y has decreased. for a black hole the surface looks like: | | |____ | | | |---- | | since no amount of pushing against the fabric of space will make you move, you would be stuck inside the hole (after being ripped to shreds by the steep gradient of the event horizon) How likely is this, can a mathmatical model be derived which would refute or support this model. Are there any predictions one could make about such a universe that would be at odds with our own? Or is this like the topological transformed earth where the surface of the earth is mapped to the inside of a sphere and the space towards the center of the sphere becomes increasingly compressed so as to be able to contain all the stars and galaxies. Totally self-consistent, but offering no fundamental insights because it is indistinguishable from reality? -- Kevin "Tex" Houston http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html Webmaster http://www.urly-bird.com/index.html "Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." A. Einstein From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 09:20 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["632" "Tue" "22" "July" "1997" "12:20:23" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "16" "starship-design: New Idea from non member" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id JAA18376 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 09:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA18363 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 09:20:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id MwX08905; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:19:28 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970722.122148.15790.0.jimaclem@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-14 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 631 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: New Idea from non member Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:20:23 -0400 ---------start new idea ------------------- Each transmitter could be a stationary fusion rocket with the beam pointed in one direction, and the fusion exhaust (at very low speed) pointed in the other. Since the whole thing is stationary, it could be refueled periodicly by robot tenders. The fusion motor could tap most of the kinetic/thermal energy of the fusion products to provide electricity to power the transmitter, with a little left over kinetic energy and a fair amount of mass to provide a counter balancing force. ---------end new idea -------comments?----- Ooh, I like it! I'll See what I can come up with. Jim From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 09:58 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["110" "Tue" "22" "July" "1997" "11:28:39" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "8" "RE: starship-design: PseudoScience?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id JAA01284 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 09:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA01271 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 09:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p9.gnt.com (x2p28.gnt.com [204.49.68.233]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA11347 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:57:09 -0500 Received: by x2p9.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC9696.609E9E40@x2p9.gnt.com>; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:57:06 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC9696.609E9E40@x2p9.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 109 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: PseudoScience? Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:28:39 -0500 Zenon, My apologies, I was reading his quote in your message, or was it the other way around? Lee Parker From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 11:17 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["273" "Tue" "22" "July" "1997" "12:17:13" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" "<33D50738.4A6D@sunherald.infi.net>" "10" "starship-design: X-rays" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA01339 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA01320 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:17:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-100.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-100.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.100]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA03979 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:17:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33D50738.4A6D@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 272 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: X-rays Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:17:13 -0700 Greetings: I've thought about it, and don't like the idea of getting cancer, so will the radiation flux be safer if I reduce voltage to 100KVDC with a current of 400microamperes? Would .5 inches of lead shield this? Kyle Mcallister P.S.: I'm not building an atom bomb. From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 11:19 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["3885" "Tue" "22" "July" "1997" "12:19:08" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" "<33D507AB.5A23@sunherald.infi.net>" "90" "Re: BOUNCE starship-design: Non-member submission from [\"Kevin 'Tex' Houston\" ]" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA01980 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:19:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA01962 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:19:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-100.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-100.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.100]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA02243 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:19:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33D507AB.5A23@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199707220318.UAA11121@darkwing.uoregon.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 3884 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: BOUNCE starship-design: Non-member submission from ["Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ] Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:19:08 -0700 stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu wrote: > > >From stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu Mon Jul 21 20:18:37 1997 > Received: from mhub1.tc.umn.edu (0@mhub1.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.51]) > by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA11102 > for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:18:36 -0700 (PDT) > Received: from pub-15-c-166.dialup.umn.edu by mhub1.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 21 Jul 97 22:18:35 -0500 > Message-ID: <33D42226.44CB@email.umn.edu> > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:59:50 -0500 > From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" > Reply-To: hous0042@email.umn.edu > X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: Starship design group > Subject: Solutions to some of the beaming problems and a new idea > References: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Timothy van der Linden wrote to Jim: > > > > You touched the subject beaming (of either a probe or the starship itself). > > I'd like you to read a rough summary of all the problems that this group has > > come up with so far. > > > > You should be able to find it here: > > > > http://www1.tip.nl/~t596675/sd/beaming/beam.html > > > > Nice job Tim. here are some solution ideas for your problems list. > > #9 redshift causes the momentum to decrease: > #15 doppler shift changes reflectivity: > > Sweeping the beam into higher frequencies, and then back down, as the > mission prgresses; would allow the ship to receive it energy at a near > constant frequency. Any slight deviations should be within tolerance. > > #14. communication: > > Using different wavelengths of EM for engine, comm. > > for example, if you are using Maser for power, then you should use a > laser to communicate. The laser guide beaming messages back to earth > could be made of plastic or glass which would be totally immune to > microwaves > > #16 acceleration means limited beaming time. > > As we say in the Computer Biz, "That's not a bug, that's a feature." > > This reduces the amount of time the puclic needs to think about all that > energy being poured out into space, and decreases the likelyhood that > someone will turn the beam off halfway through the mission. either by > activly flipping the switch or slow politically motivated starvation. > also, since the time rate of the crew slows down near turn-around, they > should preceive constant power (J) (providing the beam also sweeps up in > frequency) > > 18 could be solved by moving several large asteroids (or lots of smaller > ones) into a proper orbit around the sun. (one that is normal to the > line connecting the two suns.) > since we'll have to build this thing out in space, I'll bet we have a > lot of slag/waste that could be used to 'anchor' the transmitter in > place. a conventional rocket or ion engine would be much better for > conteracting the beams thrust. > > ---------start new idea ------------------- > > Each transmitter could be a stationary fusion rocket with the beam > pointed in one direction, and the fusion exhaust (at very low speed) > pointed in the other. Since the whole thing is stationary, it could be > refueled periodicly by robot tenders. The fusion motor could tap most > of the kinetic/thermal energy of the fusion products to provide > electricity to power the transmitter, with a little left over kinetic > energy and a fair amount of mass to provide a counter balancing force. > > ---------end new idea -------comments?----- > > -- > Kevin "Tex" Houston http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html > Webmaster http://www.urly-bird.com/index.html > "Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and > Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." A. Einstein Whats this non-member submission stuff? Kyle From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 11:22 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["533" "Tue" "22" "July" "1997" "11:22:29" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu" nil "13" "Re: BOUNCE starship-design: Non-member submission from [\"Kevin 'Tex' Houston\" ]" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA03922 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:22:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA03897; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:22:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707221822.LAA03897@darkwing.uoregon.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <33D507AB.5A23@sunherald.infi.net> References: <199707220318.UAA11121@darkwing.uoregon.edu> <33D507AB.5A23@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.33 under 19.15p7 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 532 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: kyle Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: BOUNCE starship-design: Non-member submission from ["Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ] Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:22:29 -0700 (PDT) kyle writes: > Whats this non-member submission stuff? This is described in the list info file that you should have received, read (and kept!) when you subscribed. People who are not on the starship-design list cannot post to it. If you post from a different email address than the one you subscribed under, then the post will be bounced to me (the list owner). Kevin changed email addresses, and I forwarded his posts that bounced to the list. I have contacted Kevin about it and resubscribed him with his new email address. From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 11:26 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["940" "Tue" "22" "July" "1997" "13:26:38" "-0500" "Kevin C Houston" "hous0042@tc.umn.edu" nil "30" "starship-design: NON MEMBER?? here's what happened." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA05115 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:26:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mhub2.tc.umn.edu (0@mhub2.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.52]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA05096 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from garnet.tc.umn.edu by mhub2.tc.umn.edu; Tue, 22 Jul 97 13:26:39 -0500 Received: from localhost by garnet.tc.umn.edu; Tue, 22 Jul 97 13:26:39 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Kevin C Houston Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Length: 939 From: Kevin C Houston Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: starship-design: NON MEMBER?? here's what happened. Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:26:38 -0500 (CDT) Okay, I recently changed status here at the U. In short my free ride on the U's modem pool was terminated, but I was given the oppourtunity to purchase an account ($30.00 for 3 month, a real deal). As a result, my E-mail address has changed very slightly (although the old one will still work) For those who are maintaining a personal address book of LIT members, here is my info name: Kevin 'Tex' Houston E-mail: hous0042@tc.umn.edu web: http://umn.edu/~hous0042/ I also have another web server, http://wwww.urly-bird.com/ This server has a LIT development site. Anyone wishing to post some web pages (LIT related) may do so free of charge. Just send them to me as an attachment to E-mail and I'll put them up. -------Begin Crass Commercialism------------ If you would like a web site that is not LIT related, let me know, my proces are very reasonable. ;) -------End Crass Comercialism--------------- Kevin 'Tex' Houston From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 11:31 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1222" "Tue" "22" "July" "1997" "11:31:21" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "32" "starship-design: X-rays" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA06669 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA06640 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [198.68.17.19]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA15750; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA24299; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:31:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707221831.LAA24299@tzadkiel.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <33D50738.4A6D@sunherald.infi.net> References: <33D50738.4A6D@sunherald.infi.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.33 under 19.15p7 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 1221 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: kyle Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: X-rays Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:31:21 -0700 kyle writes: > Greetings: > > I've thought about it, and don't like the idea of getting cancer, so > will the radiation flux be safer if I reduce voltage to 100KVDC with a > current of 400microamperes? Would .5 inches of lead shield this? > > Kyle Mcallister Kyle, if you don't tell us what you are building we can't tell you anything about possible risks. If you use the voltage to put a steady current through a resistive device, no radiation will be produced. If you use the voltage to accelerate electrons to collide with a target, you might produce X-rays (assuming you do it right). If you use the voltage to power a microwave oscillator, you'd produce microwaves. If you touch the wires, you'd get a pretty bad jolt (possibly fatal if the current goes through your heart). Telling anyone only the voltage and amperage you're using IS NOT ENOUGH. I think that rather than asking us you should be consulting with a qualified electrician. In any case this is becoming unrelated to the topics this list is for. Please take your question to a more relevant forum. > P.S.: I'm not building an atom bomb. Well, duh. 200W is not anywhere near enough to produce a big explosion, and 40W isn't either. From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 11:54 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["892" "Tue" "22" "July" "1997" "20:54:09" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "25" "RE: starship-design: PseudoScience?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA15351 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:54:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.40]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA15186 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id UAA08715; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 20:54:09 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707221854.UAA08715@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa Content-Type: text Content-Length: 891 From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: RE: starship-design: PseudoScience? Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 20:54:09 +0200 (MET DST) > From: "L. Parker" > > Zenon, > > My apologies, I was reading his quote in your message, or was it the > other way around? > His quote in my message. My reply was: I am not a specialist in relativity, so I go by the opinion of specialists in that field. Steve is one (at leat far better than me ;-). I may say, that there is at least a "not forbidden" evidence - current physical theories of space-time are tested at very many points in the range of their applicability, and nothing in them prevents the possibility of macroscopic objects flying near light speed. And being contracted/time dilated at that. Of course, we cannot be sure. But because it fits into a theory otherwise very well tested, we can be many times more sure that it will work that way than not - the latter claim backed only by a word of honor of certain Kyle Mcallister ;-) -- Zenon From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 13:41 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2582" "Tue" "22" "July" "1997" "22:36:03" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "59" "RE: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id NAA28162 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:41:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA28107 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-022.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wqlkb-000JePC; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 22:41:41 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 2581 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 22:36:03 +0100 Lee, Hoping that Zenon did quote your entire letter, here my comment > In rergards to shielding the cargo aeas of sail powered craft I think > you are worrying too much. In my summary it is just on of many points. It is a problem that may arise, but surely not the biggest. > I seem to remember that Forward performed all > of these calculations. I will look them up to be sure. But, anything > with sufficient power to require a lot of shielding on the cargo will > MELT THE SAIL. True, but you got me thinking about something... I think most of us are still assuming that the sail is a mirror. This can be true, but if so, it will not decelerate the ship unless we can make a retro-mirror (or plasma-cloud mirror) work. (Kelly would you care writing a short explanation about the plasma-cloud mirror for the new members?) The beaming concept looks nice, but its most essential problem is deceleration. Using the "sail" as an energy collector to power some engine (Kelly has a "simple" solution for that too) is the only option besides a retro-reflection-mirror. > Something just occurred to me (again) in light of recent discussions > regarding the impact of interstellar hydrogen on the sail, it seems to > me that there is a "terminal velocity" where the pressure from the > photons impactine the back of the sail will exactly balance the pressure > of the hydrogen impacting the front of the sail at relativistic > velocities. This point is probably well short of the speed of light > which would severely limit the usefuleness of sails. I can't recall > having seen any calculations along these lines. Anyone care to comment? The power density of the beam should compensate for this. I believe that I did some calculations when we thought about scooping hydrogen. I remember that even using rediculous big scoops we could not scoop more than a few 100 kg. To this problem more transparant: Even if we encounter as much mass per second as the ship itself, it will only half the acceleration. And if we encounter that much mass, then I'd rather not be in that ship. Zenon worried: That seems an important observation. My guess is that even more restrictive on the sail speed would be the physical damage inflicted on the sail by the interstellar medium (even the hydrogen atoms, but also other debris, like dust). You cannot shield the entire sail... My suggestion was to use part of the beam to blow clear the path. We may re-route a part of the beam to a more divergent beam which will push the few atoms in our way to the side. Timothy From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 15:20 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["768" "Wed" "23" "July" "1997" "00:15:39" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "21" "Re: starship-design: NON MEMBER?? here's what happened." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA11055 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA11034 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:20:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-022.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wqnIy-000F1TC; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:21:16 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 767 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: NON MEMBER?? here's what happened. Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:15:39 +0100 Kevin, >I recently changed status here at the U. In short my free ride on the U's >modem pool was terminated, but I was given the oppourtunity to purchase an >account ($30.00 for 3 month, a real deal). As a result, my E-mail address >has changed very slightly (although the old one will still work) Congratulations, now that decided to actually pay for writing to this group, you have become our honered member of the week ;))) >-------Begin Crass Commercialism------------ >If you would like a web site that is not LIT related, let me know, my >proces are very reasonable. ;) >-------End Crass Comercialism--------------- Well, since you are on of our sponsors, you get a few "out of jail for free" tickets, for commercial spamming on this list :) Timothy From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 15:21 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2862" "Wed" "23" "July" "1997" "00:15:33" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "69" "starship-design: Kevin's reply about Tim's summary" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA11285 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:21:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA11254 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-022.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wqnIt-000F1MC; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:21:11 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 2861 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Kevin's reply about Tim's summary Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:15:33 +0100 >Nice job Tim. here are some solution ideas for your problems list. Thanks, it should appeal to you most, since you've a beamed ship design. >#9 redshift causes the momentum to decrease: >#15 doppler shift changes reflectivity: > >Sweeping the beam into higher frequencies, and then back down, as the >mission prgresses; would allow the ship to receive it energy at a near >constant frequency. Any slight deviations should be within tolerance. True, I guess we figured that out before, but I will add it to the summary. The only trouble I see with this is that the beaming station needs tunable masers/lasers. I know this is possible, but doesn't make the design easier. Of course, increasing the frequency will still result in decrease of momentum, only the people on the starship won't notice. >#14. communication: > >Using different wavelengths of EM for engine, comm. > >for example, if you are using Maser for power, then you should use a >laser to communicate. The laser guide beaming messages back to earth >could be made of plastic or glass which would be totally immune to >microwaves Yes, that's true, I wonder why I didn't think of that a long time ago. >#16 acceleration means limited beaming time. > >As we say in the Computer Biz, "That's not a bug, that's a feature." That indeed is a way of looking at it. >18 could be solved by moving several large asteroids (or lots of smaller >ones) into a proper orbit around the sun. (one that is normal to the >line connecting the two suns.) >since we'll have to build this thing out in space, I'll bet we have a >lot of slag/waste that could be used to 'anchor' the transmitter in >place. a conventional rocket or ion engine would be much better for >conteracting the beams thrust. Yes, I'll add using a mass momentum engine. >---------start new idea ------------------- > >Each transmitter could be a stationary fusion rocket with the beam >pointed in one direction, and the fusion exhaust (at very low speed) >pointed in the other. Since the whole thing is stationary, it could be >refueled periodicly by robot tenders. The fusion motor could tap most >of the kinetic/thermal energy of the fusion products to provide >electricity to power the transmitter, with a little left over kinetic >energy and a fair amount of mass to provide a counter balancing force. > >---------end new idea -------comments?----- The idea is nice, although supplying millions of fusion reactors may not be something you'd like to do. We'll use a total of say 1E18 Watt, that's roughly 5000 kg of fusion fuel per second. Or about 4 times the weight of the ship per day. (Eh, I'm assuming that we use the beam for a 1E8 kg ship, not for a probe) I'd like the simplicity of solarcells better, even though they will be much more plenty. In general they will be easier to build and need less care. Timothy From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 15:22 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["656" "Wed" "23" "July" "1997" "00:15:36" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "20" "Re: starship-design: X-rays" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA11512 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA11481 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-022.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wqnIw-000F1QC; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:21:14 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 655 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: X-rays Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:15:36 +0100 Kyle, >I've thought about it, and don't like the idea of getting cancer, so >will the radiation flux be safer if I reduce voltage to 100KVDC with a >current of 400microamperes? Would .5 inches of lead shield this? If my data is correct, that should weaken the intensity by more than 5,000 times. Less than (0.1 absorbed Joule)/(kg of body weight) is assumed to do no direct harm. But once again the less the better. Note: I use Joule, that's power integrated over time. Watching your experiment for shorter periods makes it less harmful. As Steve mentioned, and like I wrote you before, if there are no sparks, there also will be few Xrays. Timothy From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 19:33 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["284" "Tue" "22" "July" "1997" "20:42:20" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "12" "RE: starship-design: X-rays" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA27292 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:33:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA27264 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:33:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p44.gnt.com (x2p44.gnt.com [204.49.68.249]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA14036 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 21:33:32 -0500 Received: by x2p44.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC96E6.E2D9CBA0@x2p44.gnt.com>; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 21:33:25 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC96E6.E2D9CBA0@x2p44.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 283 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: X-rays Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 20:42:20 -0500 Kyle, Unless you have access to magnetron tubes capable of generating x-rays you don't need to worry about radiation, there is nothing intrinsically radioactive about the energy levels you were discussing. Lee P.S. Did I miss something? Why are you trying to generate x-rays? From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 19:35 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["654" "Tue" "22" "July" "1997" "22:35:10" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "23" "Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA27461 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:35:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout20.mail.aol.com (emout20.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.46]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA27451 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:35:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout20.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id WAA21086; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 22:35:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970722223509_1961745478@emout20.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 653 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 22:35:10 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/21/97 7:29:19 PM, TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) wrote: >Regarding problem 12b: > >I'd wanted to mention the Euler instability (didn't know it had a name >though), but assumed that if we could not control the sail, then using any >sail-design would be a mistake. >Writing this I realize that we may be able to control a sail-design if it >has less inherent instability. > >My best guess is to use a parashute-model and shield the relative small payload. > > >Timothy One alternative is to have fleets of little tugs sheparding the sail into shape. Not very eligant, but an option worth consideration. Kelly From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 20:53 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2103" "Tue" "22" "July" "1997" "21:34:53" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "45" "RE: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA13656 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 20:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA13644 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 20:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p44.gnt.com (x2p32.gnt.com [204.49.68.237]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA20465 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 22:53:44 -0500 Received: by x2p44.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC96F2.19553D80@x2p44.gnt.com>; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 22:53:41 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC96F2.19553D80@x2p44.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 2102 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 21:34:53 -0500 Timothy, > The beaming concept looks nice, but its most essential problem is > deceleration. Using the "sail" as an energy collector to power some engine > (Kelly has a "simple" solution for that too) is the only option besides a > retro-reflection-mirror. [L. Parker] I was assuming that the first trip would use some other method of braking, perhaps a combination of magnetic and solar sail braking. Subsequent trips could use lasers built by the first trip. > The power density of the beam should compensate for this. I believe that I > did some calculations when we thought about scooping hydrogen. I remember > that even using rediculous big scoops we could not scoop more than a few 100 kg. > > To this problem more transparant: Even if we encounter as much mass per > second as the ship itself, it will only half the acceleration. > And if we encounter that much mass, then I'd rather not be in that ship. [L. Parker] Transmitted power density is measured in one frame of reference but impact density on the leading edge of the sail is in a different frame of reference where "mass per second" is measured with a relativistic shift. You will have a laser behind you and the equivalent of an x-ray laser in front of you (I know, its not really a laser because it isn't coherent) for that matter there will be an opposite relativistic shift on the beam which will further lower the terminal velocity. > My suggestion was to use part of the beam to blow clear the path. We may > re-route a part of the beam to a more divergent beam which will push the few > atoms in our way to the side. [L. Parker] Not a bad idea. They use a similar technique with high energy lasers in the military, a short burst in front of the main shot creates a sort of temporary vacuum which reduces beam scattering in atmosphere. Lee Parker (o o) ------------------------------------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo--------- When I die, I want to go peacefully, in my sleep, like my grandfather... not screaming like the people in his car. From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 21:01 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["763" "Wed" "23" "July" "1997" "00:01:09" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "21" "Re: starship-design: New Idea from non member" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA14607 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 21:01:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout14.mail.aol.com (emout14.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.40]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA14592 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 21:01:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout14.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA27806; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:01:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970723000103_138752014@emout14.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 762 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: jimaclem@juno.com, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: New Idea from non member Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:01:09 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/22/97 3:46:35 PM, jimaclem@juno.com wrote: >---------start new idea ------------------- > >Each transmitter could be a stationary fusion rocket with the beam >pointed in one direction, and the fusion exhaust (at very low speed) >pointed in the other. Since the whole thing is stationary, it could be >refueled periodicly by robot tenders. The fusion motor could tap most >of the kinetic/thermal energy of the fusion products to provide >electricity to power the transmitter, with a little left over kinetic >energy and a fair amount of mass to provide a counter balancing force. > >---------end new idea -------comments?----- Cool, that would also get around the problem of the transmiters moving during the transmition period. Kelly From owner-starship-design Tue Jul 22 21:02 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1312" "Wed" "23" "July" "1997" "00:01:29" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "36" "Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA14651 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 21:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout15.mail.aol.com (emout15.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.41]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA14630 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 21:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout15.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA28170; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:01:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970723000107_257694950@emout15.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1311 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: jimaclem@juno.com cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:01:29 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/22/97 7:51:15 AM, jimaclem@juno.com wrote: >On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:35:54 +0200 (MET DST) Zenon Kulpa > writes: > >>> Something just occurred to me (again) in light of recent discussions >> >>> regarding the impact of interstellar hydrogen on the sail, it seems >>to >>> me that there is a "terminal velocity" where the pressure from the >>> photons impactine the back of the sail will exactly balance the >>pressure >>> of the hydrogen impacting the front of the sail at relativistic >>> velocities. This point is probably well short of the speed of light >>> which would severely limit the usefuleness of sails. I can't recall >>> having seen any calculations along these lines. Anyone care to >>comment? >>> >>That seems an important observation. >>My guess is that even more restrictive on the sail speed >>would be the physical damage inflicted on the sail by the >>interstellar medium (even the hydrogen atoms, but also other debris, >>like dust). You cannot shield the entire sail... >> >>-- Zenon > >Good points, reminds me that the Bussard Ramjet was expected to have the >same drawback with drag interaction between the scoop field and the dust >and gas. I beleave it was thought the drag would always exceed the thrust. Kelly From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 23 02:23 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1131" "Wed" "23" "July" "1997" "11:18:06" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "33" "starship-design: Re: The Device" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id CAA08512 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 02:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA08418 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 02:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-022.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wqxe2-000Hj9C; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:23:42 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1130 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Re: The Device Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:18:06 +0100 Sorry Kyle, I'm making a mess of things. By now you've this letter in triplet. Kyle, Clearly your design is trying to close in the magnetic field. And as a result you measurements acknowledge that. The only logical place for the magnetic field to escape (or better to complete the loop), are the seams where the triangles connect. Actually not only the seams leak, but the whole tetrahedron: Only the seams will show a concentrated southpoles, but the northpoles (the triangles themselves) will be weakened by part of the southpoles of the "opposite" electromagnet. (They are of course is not a real opposite in a tetrahedron, but at least something close to it.) To simplify your design: It exists of two coils, that are glued at the ends of a short tube (more like a ring). The coils will try to cancel one another out, but don't succeed for 100%, the percentage that is left over will leak through the wall of the tube, which has only a small surface compared to the whole design and therefore is easy to miss. Try measuring the seams as well as you can, you must notice some wiggeling of the compass there. Timothy From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 23 05:56 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["8261" "Wed" "23" "July" "1997" "14:55:23" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "229" "starship-design: Foresight Institute Electronic Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id FAA11501 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 05:56:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.40]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id FAA11473 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 05:56:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id OAA09570; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:55:23 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707231255.OAA09570@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa Content-Type: text Content-Length: 8260 From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: starship-design: Foresight Institute Electronic Newsletter Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:55:23 +0200 (MET DST) Hope it may be of interest to you, -- Zenon ----- Begin Included Message ----- >From office@foresight.org Wed Jul 23 00:16:08 1997 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:52:48 -0800 To: office@foresight.org (Elaine Tschorn) From: Elaine Tschorn Subject: Foresight Institute Electronic Newsletter Content-Length: 7892 Foresight Institute Electronic Newsletter #2 July 23, 1997 This is a quarterly email update on nanotechnology from Foresight Institute. To stop receiving it, send email to inform@foresight.org. In this issue: ** Company founded to develop an assembler ** Growing mainstream acceptance of nanotechnology allows Foresight to focus on next stage goals ** ** Promising new approach to enhancing the World Wide Web ** ** Unbounding the Future available online ** ** Recent Foresight news ** ======================= ** Company founded to develop an assembler ** -Zyvex, the first nanotechnology company with the explicit goal of developing an assembler, has been founded. Read the story in Update 29: http://www.foresight.org/Updates/Update29/Update29.3.html#anchor588503 For more details, visit the Zyvex web site: http://www.zyvex.com/ ======================= ** Growing mainstream acceptance of nanotechnology allows Foresight to focus on next stage goals ** Examples of the growing mainstream acceptance of nanotechnology include the following: -Nanotechnology researchers gain recognition: Newsweek names K. Eric Drexler to its "Century Club": http://www.foresight.org/News/News1.html#anchor272496 Discover Magazine awards for technological innovation recognize nanotechnology researchers James Gimzewski and Nadrian C. Seeman in the category of "emerging technology": http://www.foresight.org/News/News1.html#anchor532599 http://www.foresight.org/Updates/Update29/Update29.1.html#anchor796573 For more details on how the media are responding to progress in nanotechnology, see two most recent Media Watch columns: http://www.foresight.org/Updates/Update28/Update28.4.html#anchor1159804 http://www.foresight.org/Updates/Update29/Update29.4.html#anchor436046 ---------- -Leading researchers to speak at Fifth Foresight Conference on Molecular Nanotechnology in November: For details, read the articles at: http://www.foresight.org/Updates/Update28/Update28.1.html#anchor218362 http://www.foresight.org/Updates/Update29/Update29.1.html#anchor413407 The home page for the conference is at: http://www.foresight.org/Conferences/MNT05/Nano5.html A "Tutorial on Critical Enabling Technologies for Nanotechnology" will be available immediately before the conference: http://www.foresight.org/Conferences/MNT05/Tutorial.html Registration information for the Conference and Tutorial, including online registration, is available at: http://www.foresight.org/Conferences/MNT05/RegInfo.html Beginning next month, abstracts accepted for the conference will be posted at: http://www.foresight.org/Conferences/MNT05/Abstracts/ ---------- -Accelerating progress in enabling technologies: The best overview of the progress toward nanotechnology along a broad range of fronts can be obtained from Jeffrey Soreff's "Recent Progress" columns in the Foresight Update. His two most recent columns can be found at: http://www.foresight.org/Updates/Update28/Update28.3.html#anchor325808 http://www.foresight.org/Updates/Update29/Update29.3.html#anchor711279 Topics covered include: Advances in Parallel Techniques, Advances in Sequential Techniques, Catalytic Structures, Mechanochemistry, Components and Assembly Techniques, Novel Features, Protein Motors, Single Molecule Diagnostics, Single Electronics in Esprit, Abzymes ---------- -These "mainstream" endorsements of nanotechnology have caused Foresight's leadership to conclude that it is time for Foresight to take on the more long range issues of the effects of mature nanotechnology upon society and individuals. See: Chris Peterson's "Inside Foresight" column: http://www.foresight.org/Updates/Update29/Update29.2.html#anchor1010717 Report on Eric Drexler's talk at the May 1997 Senior Associates Gathering: http://www.foresight.org/Updates/Update29/Update29.2.html#anchor205008 ======================= ** Promising new approach to enhancing the World Wide Web ** Excellent results from a new approach to Foresight's project to enhance the World Wide Web to develop a true hypertext publishing system to facilitate evolving social knowledge: http://www.foresight.org/WebEnhance/index.html#anchor360718 http://www.foresight.org/WebEnhance/M1Plus.html An overview of this project is available at: http://www.foresight.org/WebEnhance/index.html More background is available at: http://www.foresight.org/Updates/Update29/Update29.2.html#anchor53292 ======================= ** Unbounding the Future available online ** "The nanotechnology book to give your mom," Unbounding the Future: the Nanotechnology Revolution, has been prepared for the Web. We have not finished all the linking and other finishing details, but you can access the book at: http://www.foresight.org/UTF/Unbound_LBW/index.html ======================= ** Recent Foresight news ** -Since our first electronic newsletter this past March was sent, two issues of Foresight Update have been published. Table of Contents of Update 28: http://www.foresight.org/Updates/Update28/Update28.1.html Table of Contents of Update 29: http://www.foresight.org/Updates/Update29/index.html A few headlines from these issues: Breakthrough-Scale Design For a Molecular Robotic "Hand": http://www.foresight.org/Updates/Update28/Update28.1.html#anchor1228823 Award For Leading Nanotechnology Student: http://www.foresight.org/Updates/Update28/Update28.2.html#anchor372353 Changes in Foresight Board: http://www.foresight.org/Updates/Update28/Update28.2.html#anchor585042 MEMS Technology: "Training Wheels for Nanotechnology"?: http://www.foresight.org/Updates/Update29/Update29.1.html#anchor580093 Searching For Nanocritics: http://www.foresight.org/Updates/Update29/Update29.5.html#anchor1246034 Links to Websites emphasizing molecular manufacturing, scanning probe miscroscopy, applications of nanotechnology to space, and molecular modeling: http://www.foresight.org/Updates/Update28/Update28.2.html#anchor133730 http://www.foresight.org/Updates/Update29/Update29.5.html#anchor528903 ---------- -Some places on the Foresight Web site to watch for a few of the most significant developments between issues of Update and this newsletter: "What's New at this Site" lists the items that have been added each month: http://www.foresight.org/WhatsNew/index.html "Selected Headlines" are developments of exceptional significance for the development of nanotechnology: http://www.foresight.org/News/index.html#anchor1389651 News of Foresight Institute and its leadership: http://www.foresight.org/News/index.html#anchor1425374 Announcements of meetings and other events: http://www.foresight.org/News/index.html#anchor1454914 -To help visitors to the Foresight Web site access the basic literature on preparing for molecular nanotechnology and other advanced technologies: Last year, Russell Whitaker set up the online version of Engines of Creation at: http://www.asiapac.com/EnginesOfCreation/ Recently this work has been mirrored on the Foresight Web site at: http://www.foresight.org/EOC/index.html Also, Eric Drexler's essay on Hypertext Publishing and the Evolution of Knowledge is available at: http://www.foresight.org/WebEnhance/HPEK1.html -All but four of the back issues of Update are available at the Foresight Web site. The links can be found at: http://www.foresight.org/Updates/Publications.html We expect to have the remaining back issues available in a few months. -It is now possible to use your credit card to register on line: for the Fifth Foresight Conference on Molecular Nanotechnology: https://www.MediaCity.com/secure/Foresight/RegEForm.html to become a Senior Associate: https://www.MediaCity.com/secure/Foresight/AppForm.html To play a key role in Foresight's efforts, see: http://www.foresight.org/SrAssoc/index.html for more information about Foresight's Senior Associates program. ----- End Included Message ----- From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 23 06:52 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3664" "Wed" "23" "July" "1997" "15:51:07" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "98" "Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id GAA20056 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 06:52:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.40]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA20012 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 06:51:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id PAA09646; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:51:07 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707231351.PAA09646@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa Content-Type: text Content-Length: 3663 From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:51:07 +0200 (MET DST) To Kelly & Timothy: > From: KellySt@aol.com > > TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) wrote: > > >Regarding problem 12b: > > > >I'd wanted to mention the Euler instability (didn't know it had a name > >though), but assumed that if we could not control the sail, > >then using any sail-design would be a mistake. > >Writing this I realize that we may be able to control a sail-design if it > >has less inherent instability. > > > >My best guess is to use a parashute-model and shield > >the relative small payload. > > One alternative is to have fleets of little tugs sheparding the sail into > shape. Not very eligant, but an option worth consideration. > My worry about the instability of the "payload-up-front" design did not concern the sail. The sail will still work like the parachute, but it will not be pulling the payload directly, only push the end of a long truss with payload at its other end: Warning: ASCII art follows (use a fixed font to view) ----------------------------------------------------- ... sail ... | \ shrouds to the sail | \ payload | \ | \ <--- #### | pulling truss \ <--- beam #####==================<==================# <--- from #### | / <--- Earth | / <--- | / | / | / shrouds to the sail ... sail ... As a result, the pulling truss (with the heavy payload at the other end) will be unstable, with the tendency of the payload end to veer to the sides. The tugs shepherding the sail will be needed in any case, especially if the whole construction should be able to make sideways manoeuvres to follow the jiggling (or spiraling) beam. Concerning the shielding/drag problem: > From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) > > Hoping that Zenon did quote your entire letter, here my comment > Yes, I quoted the whole letter. [...] > > Zenon worried: > That seems an important observation. > My guess is that even more restrictive on the sail speed > would be the physical damage inflicted on the sail by the > interstellar medium (even the hydrogen atoms, but also other debris, > like dust). You cannot shield the entire sail... > > My suggestion was to use part of the beam to blow clear the path. > We may re-route a part of the beam to a more divergent beam > which will push the few atoms in our way to the side. > Or make the sail partially transparent. But these solutions further increase the beam power losses, comparable to (or possibly larger than) those caused by the drag. So it will not be the solution for the drag problem, but possibly for the shielding problem. I wonder how much energy in the beam will be needed to sweep clear the space before the ship from dust and how big are the particles that can be sweeped fast enough this way? Note however, that the gas & fine dust pushed by that "shielding beam" before the ship will accumulate into a "shock wave" than can possibly destroy/pulverize the larger debris way ahead of the ship. (*) Certainly, if it will work efficiently enough for large velocities of the ship, it will solve the problem of shielding nicely. (*) Hope it will dissipate before reaching the target system and wiping out the life or whatever from some planet(s) there... -- Zenon From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 23 08:28 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2121" "Wed" "23" "July" "1997" "17:20:42" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "47" "Re: starship-design: New Idea from non member" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA11480 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.40]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA11428 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:28:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id RAA09873; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:20:42 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707231520.RAA09873@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2120 From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: starship-design: New Idea from non member Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:20:42 +0200 (MET DST) > From: KellySt@aol.com > > In a message dated 7/22/97 3:46:35 PM, jimaclem@juno.com wrote: > > >---------start new idea ------------------- > > > >Each transmitter could be a stationary fusion rocket with the beam > >pointed in one direction, and the fusion exhaust (at very low speed) > >pointed in the other. Since the whole thing is stationary, it could be > >refueled periodicly by robot tenders. The fusion motor could tap most > >of the kinetic/thermal energy of the fusion products to provide > >electricity to power the transmitter, with a little left over kinetic > >energy and a fair amount of mass to provide a counter balancing force. > > > >---------end new idea -------comments?----- > > Cool, that would also get around the problem of the transmiters > moving during the transmition period. > Eh, what do you mean by "stationary"? Nothing in space is stationary, it will always orbit around (or falling at) some other body. You may make it "stationary" with respect to the Sun making it hover at a distance due to constant thrust toward the Sun (I wonder how large thrust it should be in the gravitational field of the Sun near the Earth orbit - can physicists here calculate this?). However, the thrust should also compensate for the recoil from the emitted beam (quite large, I am afraid). Moreover, refueling them would be a problem - a robot tender going from Earth (or the asteroid belt) with the fuel will have to decelerate away all its orbital speed (30 km/s in the vicinity of Earth's orbit), stay "stationary" on its rocket exhaust when at the transmitter (or be firmly hooked to it, using transmitter increased thrust for hovering) and then accelerate again to this speed when going back. And such a manoeuver will certainly shatter a little the transmitter itself, making the beam jiggling. There will be similar problem with positioning the starship itself on the straight-line (along the beam) course to the target system - first you must somehow annihilate its orbiting speed around the Sun (which will be essentially perpendicular to the direction of the beam...). -- Zenon From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 23 08:59 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["987" "Wed" "23" "July" "1997" "17:28:28" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "27" "Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA22590 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.40]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA21496 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:58:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id RAA09886; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:28:28 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707231528.RAA09886@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa Content-Type: text Content-Length: 986 From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:28:28 +0200 (MET DST) Ahh, in my drawing of the configuration I should have of course written "pushing truss", instead of "pulling truss" (I have had always problems with rembering what is "pull" and what is "push" ;-))) Warning: ASCII art follows (use a fixed font to view) ----------------------------------------------------- ... sail ... | \ shrouds to the sail | \ payload | \ | \ <--- #### | pushing truss \ <--- beam #####==================<==================# <--- from #### | / <--- Earth | / <--- | / | / | / shrouds to the sail ... sail ... -- Zenon From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 23 10:42 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["203" "Wed" "23" "July" "1997" "11:42:00" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "14" "starship-design: NASA Paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id KAA02831 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA02818 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-92.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-92.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.92]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA12301 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:42:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33D65078.67A0@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 202 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: NASA Paper Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:42:00 -0700 Greetings: That paper I mentioned earlier about starship drives can be obtained from: Marc G. Millis marc_millis@nasa.lerc.gov The title is: The Challenge to Create the Space Drive Kyle Mcallister From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 23 11:36 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["39341" "Wed" "23" "July" "1997" "12:43:54" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "544" "starship-design: Preliminary Design for a Solar Laser Power Station" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA24294 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:36:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA24225 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p44.gnt.com (x2p45.gnt.com [204.49.68.250]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA24453 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:35:56 -0500 Received: by x2p44.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC976D.558C0380@x2p44.gnt.com>; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:35:50 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC976D.558C0380@x2p44.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BC976D.55F0B8C0" Content-Length: 39340 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: starship-design: Preliminary Design for a Solar Laser Power Station Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:43:54 -0500 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC976D.55F0B8C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Preliminary design for a Solar Laser Power Station OVERVIEW This is a design for a solar powered laser that uses a sail as both the concentrator and the station keeping propulsion. It consists of an annular solar sail with an aperture in the middle to pass a beam through, a solar powered laser (this is technically not a laser since it will radiate coherent radiation in multiple frequencies) and station keeping, focusing and aiming controls. It is designed to be low cost, and low maintenance as well as easily mass producible using only moderately intelligent automation. OPERATIONAL DESCRIPTION Sail Operation This is NOT an orbital design. It is designed to kill its orbital velocity by tacking a solar sail until it is oriented to accelerate directly away from the sun with a thrust that is equal to the gravitational pull plus a reserve component of thrust to offset the pressure of the laser. Sunlight is collected by the sail in the normal manner but the geometry of the sail is such as to concentrate the reflected sunlight at a solar laser suspended where the ship would normally be. Laser Operation The laser is basically an optical concentrator whose geometry produces an extremely concentrated, nearly coherent beam of SUNLIGHT. Because the beam is not completely coherent and consists of multiple spectra, it cannot be truly considered a laser, but in most respects (and for our purposes) it behaves like one. ADVANTAGES 1) No onboard fuel or resupply of fuel is necessary. All power can be derived from sunlight for both its primary mission (the laser), station keeping and electrical power generation for on board electronics. 2) Simple to build 3) Greatest conversion efficiency 4) Mass producible from material found off of Earth 5) Technically there is no limit on how big the generator can be. DISADVANTAGES 1) Station keeping is likely to be tricky when coupled with aiming mechanisms. May cause additional beam jitter requiring extra generating stations to provide surplus capacity. 2) As beam angle diverges from solar thrust angle additional steering is required to compensate for the sideways vector. There is probably an upper limit to the beam angle which can be generated and therefore an upper limit to how many can be aimed at one target. 3) Continuos proximity of the sail to a sun is likely to cause additional wear in the sail material due to the thicker solar wind. Because of the lack of orbit, rendezvous for repairs is unlikely. Lee Parker (o o) ------------------------------------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo--------- "I share no man's opinions; I have my own." 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Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA22238 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-027.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wr9q0-000FHVC; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:24:52 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 2104 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:19:15 +0100 Lee, >> The beaming concept looks nice, but its most essential problem is >> deceleration. Using the "sail" as an energy collector to power some engine >> (Kelly has a "simple" solution for that too) is the only option besides a >> retro-reflection-mirror. > >[L. Parker] I was assuming that the first trip would use some other method >of braking, perhaps a combination of magnetic and solar sail braking. >Subsequent trips could use lasers built by the first trip. Solar braking is out of the question, the beam we use is much more concentrated than solar light at a save distance. Magnetic braking will need thousants (probably much much more) of miles of (heavy?) conductive wires, and you'll probably not be in a strong enough magnetic field for a long enough time. I'd think this has been said several times before. >[L. Parker] Transmitted power density is measured in one frame of >reference but impact density on the leading edge of the sail is in >a different frame of reference where "mass per second" is measured >with a relativistic shift. You will have a laser behind you and the >equivalent of an x-ray laser in front of you (I know, its not really >a laser because it isn't coherent) for that matter there will be an >opposite relativistic shift on the beam which will further lower the >terminal velocity. True there is that reverse dopplershift, but I don't think the impacting molecules at the front will form anything like a dense wall, unless we get very close to the speed of light. For our vessels, the doppler shift is not likely to exceed a factor 10. >> My suggestion was to use part of the beam to blow clear the path. We may >> re-route a part of the beam to a more divergent beam which will push the few >> atoms in our way to the side. > >[L. Parker] Not a bad idea. They use a similar technique with high >energy lasers in the military, a short burst in front of the main >shot creates a sort of temporary vacuum which reduces beam scattering >in atmosphere. Bummer, I thought I was the first to think of this ;) Glad to know it works though. Timothy From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 23 15:25 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["338" "Thu" "24" "July" "1997" "00:19:13" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "14" "Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA22569 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA22545 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:25:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-027.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wr9pz-000F9wC; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:24:51 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 337 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:19:13 +0100 Kelly wrote: >>My best guess is to use a parashute-model and shield the relative small >>payload. > >One alternative is to have fleets of little tugs sheparding the sail into >shape. Not very eligant, but an option worth consideration. You've to elaborate about this, so far I don't see where this differs from a parachute. Timothy From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 23 16:45 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["164" "Wed" "23" "July" "1997" "18:17:13" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "7" "RE: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id QAA24272 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA24224 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:45:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p7.gnt.com (x2p7.gnt.com [204.49.68.212]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA09721 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:45:52 -0500 Received: by x2p7.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC9798.A3A11F80@x2p7.gnt.com>; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:45:49 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC9798.A3A11F80@x2p7.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by darkwing.uoregon.edu id QAA24233 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 163 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:17:13 -0500 Kelly, Why don't you try spinning the sail into shape? Ever seen a fisherman cast a throw net? He gives a little flick with his wrist to make it spin open. Lee From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 23 17:33 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3205" "Wed" "23" "July" "1997" "19:31:02" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "63" "RE: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id RAA10833 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA10821 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p7.gnt.com (x2p35.gnt.com [204.49.68.240]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA12845 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 19:33:06 -0500 Received: by x2p7.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC979F.250E0000@x2p7.gnt.com>; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 19:32:23 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC979F.250E0000@x2p7.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by darkwing.uoregon.edu id RAA10822 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 3204 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 19:31:02 -0500 Timothy. Well, I will grant that the first trip will be the hardest ;-) but, there are a multitude of deceleration schemes available. It may take longer to slow down than it did to accelerate, but once we can get there we can use beamed power at both ends of the journey. A straight solar sail deceleration at the end is not out of the question, it just means that turn over will be earlier. Or perhaps we can use one of Forward's ideas for a two stage mirror/sail where the larger sail continues to accelerate while a smaller central sail is decelerated by the reflection from the main sail. I'm not sure where you got your calculations on the magnetic braking, but everything presented to NASA seems to work. It is a viable concept, although unproven. I think I would consider the fact that it is unproven before your objections regarding the strength of the field or the mass of the wires. (Of course, sail technology in general is unproven .) If worse comes to worse, let's try this: 1) POWERED gravity assist launch 2) Deploy solar sail while DEEP within sun's solar wind (where it is most effective) 3) Additional boost from beamed power arrays until turnover 4) Deployment of retromirror at turnover 5) Solar braking assist from target star 6) Use sail to "tack" into orbit around target star (This is a wide orbit that gradually spirals inward) 7) Construction of power arrays in target system 8) Repeat from 1) but now use beamed power to brake directly into orbit around target star. As far as terminal velocity goes, I don't know the relevant equations and I suspect their derivation will be messy, but I'm fairly sure that if we want to get much above .9 c it is going to be a factor. Once you start factoring in time dilation, the RELATIVE density is going to go up in DIRECT proportion to the time dilation. Something else to consider, the calculations so far on sail material have simply factored in heating from solar light and beamed power, I didn't see any calculations of heating on BOTH sides of the sail. Forget terminal velocity, at what speed does the sail melt? Tungsten has the highest melting point that I can think of. How much power can we beam at a sail 4 microns thick made out of vacuum deposited tungsten before we reach 3,410 degrees C? What is the impact density at various speed regimes given the interstellar density in our region (thin). How much heat will the sail absorb from impact with the interstellar medium at these velocities? Can we develop a coefficient of heat (similar to a coefficient of friction) that can be input into a relativistic rocket equation to yield an upper limit on velocity? This is applicable to ANY starship, not just sail powered ships unless we are going to start speculating about non-material shielding. Lee Parker (o o) ------------------------------------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo--------- Long experience has taught me not to believe in the limitations indicated by purely theoretical considerations. These - as we well know - are based on insufficient knowledge of all the relevant factors." Guglielmo Marconi From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 23 18:18 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4505" "Wed" "23" "July" "1997" "20:13:08" "-0500" "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" "hous0042@tc.umn.edu" nil "105" "starship-design: Beamed power" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id SAA23059 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mhub2.tc.umn.edu (0@mhub2.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.52]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id SAA23048 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pub-31-a-183.dialup.umn.edu by mhub2.tc.umn.edu; Wed, 23 Jul 97 20:18:06 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33D6AC24.7665@tc.umn.edu> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 4504 From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" Sender: owner-starship-design To: Starship design group Subject: starship-design: Beamed power Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 20:13:08 -0500 Zenon Kulpa wrote: > My worry about the instability of the "payload-up-front" design > did not concern the sail. The sail will still work like the parachute, > but it will not be pulling the payload directly, only push the end > of a long truss with payload at its other end: > > Warning: ASCII art follows (use a fixed font to view) > ----------------------------------------------------- > > ... sail ... > | \ shrouds to the sail > | \ > payload | \ > | \ <--- > #### | pulling truss \ <--- beam > #####==================<==================# <--- from > #### | / <--- Earth > | / <--- > | / > | / > | / shrouds to the sail > ... sail ... > > As a result, the pulling truss (with the heavy payload at the other end) > will be unstable, with the tendency of the payload end > to veer to the sides. > I like this idea for a "shielding sail" That is, a small sail used to protect the crew quarters from the beam. I still think we should use tension members (instead of compression) to support the payload (along with it's associated shielding sail) > The tugs shepherding the sail will be needed in any case, > especially if the whole construction should be able to make > sideways manoeuvres to follow the jiggling (or spiraling) beam. > I don't think sideways manuevers will be possible (or desirable) the beam should be a straight line connecting the two suns. If any sideways motion of the beam occurs, it will be either too fast (jitter) or will take us away from the system. The number one problem with a beamed system is what to do if the power cuts out. All I can think is that the crew will have to stay the course and hope that earth gets things straightened out before the ship impacts the target system's sun. > Concerning the shielding/drag problem: > > From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) > > > > Zenon worried: > > That seems an important observation. > > My guess is that even more restrictive on the sail speed > > would be the physical damage inflicted on the sail by the > > interstellar medium (even the hydrogen atoms, but also other debris, > > like dust). You cannot shield the entire sail... > > > > My suggestion was to use part of the beam to blow clear the path. > > We may re-route a part of the beam to a more divergent beam > > which will push the few atoms in our way to the side. > > > Or make the sail partially transparent. > perhaps a dual frequency beam would work. A main power beam in the microwave band (for example) and a lower power path clearing one in the visible or UV band. The main sail could then have holes in it that are smaller than the microwave frequency, which would allow the higher frequency band to pass through. The higher band wouldn't even need to be on all the time. it could be pulsed or gradually decreased in power as the trip progressed. > But these solutions further increase the beam power losses, > comparable to (or possibly larger than) those caused by the drag. > So it will not be the solution for the drag problem, > but possibly for the shielding problem. > > I wonder how much energy in the beam will be needed to sweep clear > the space before the ship from dust and how big are the particles > that can be sweeped fast enough this way? > Note however, that the gas & fine dust pushed by that > "shielding beam" before the ship will accumulate into > a "shock wave" than can possibly destroy/pulverize > the larger debris way ahead of the ship. (*) > Certainly, if it will work efficiently enough for large velocities > of the ship, it will solve the problem of shielding nicely. > > (*) Hope it will dissipate before reaching the target system > and wiping out the life or whatever from some planet(s) there... > Perhaps a lower powered beam could be sent ahead by several months/years -- Kevin "Tex" Houston http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html Webmaster http://www.urly-bird.com/index.html "Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods." A. Einstein From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 23 20:02 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["480" "Wed" "23" "July" "1997" "23:02:07" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "18" "Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA18706 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 20:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA18692 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 20:02:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id XlQ17163; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:01:49 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970723.230425.17582.0.jimaclem@juno.com> References: <01BC9798.A3A11F80@x2p7.gnt.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-11,14-16 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 479 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:02:07 -0400 On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:17:13 -0500 "L. Parker" writes: >Kelly, > >Why don't you try spinning the sail into shape? Ever seen a fisherman >cast a throw net? He gives a little flick with his wrist to make it >spin open. > >Lee > > This would work, but with the sail diameters I've seen, the centripetal acceleration required to keep the sail relatively flat (thought it would still present a convex face to the transmitter) will tear the sail apart. Jim From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 23 20:21 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2236" "Wed" "23" "July" "1997" "22:16:41" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "51" "RE: starship-design: Beamed power" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA23086 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 20:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA23075 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 20:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p7.gnt.com (x2p39.gnt.com [204.49.68.244]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA24283 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:21:39 -0500 Received: by x2p7.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC97B6.C8678200@x2p7.gnt.com>; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:21:36 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC97B6.C8678200@x2p7.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 2235 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Beamed power Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:16:41 -0500 Kevin, >> The tugs shepherding the sail will be needed in any case, > especially if the whole construction should be able to make > sideways manoeuvres to follow the jiggling (or spiraling) beam. [L. Parker] Something I have been wondering about for awhile, why bother trying to follow the jitter of the beam? Wouldn't it be better to accept some degradation in over all acceleration by ensuring that the beam is wider than the margin of error (jitter) even at the expense of acceleration? The advantage is obvious, no steering, just stay on course. The worst that can happen is that it takes slightly longer to get there. I don't think sideways manuevers will be possible (or desirable) the beam should be a straight line connecting the two suns. If any sideways motion of the beam occurs, it will be either too fast (jitter) or will take us away from the system. The number one problem with a beamed system is what to do if the power cuts out. All I can think is that the crew will have to stay the course and hope that earth gets things straightened out before the ship impacts the target system's sun. [L. Parker] If the beams cuts out, they have worse problems than steering. > Concerning the shielding/drag problem: > Or make the sail partially transparent. > [L. Parker] Or perhaps periodically replace the old sail with a new one and time the changeover so that a new high power pulse is allowed to "pass by" the ship to keep the path ahead clear. > (*) Hope it will dissipate before reaching the target system > and wiping out the life or whatever from some planet(s) there... > [L. Parker] !!!What are you going to do? Focus the entire output of the sun for several minutes at Tau Ceti? At closer ranges, I might be worried, for instance, Mars might experience some severe polar cap melting if it was caught in the beam, but I really don't see us generating enough power to do any damage at that range. There is a big difference between cosmic dust and a planet. L. Parker (o o) ------------------------------------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo--------- A sufficiently incompetent ScF author is indistinguishable from magic. From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 23 20:30 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["577" "Wed" "23" "July" "1997" "22:30:30" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "19" "RE: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA24448 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 20:30:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA24433 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 20:30:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p7.gnt.com (x2p39.gnt.com [204.49.68.244]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA25194 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:30:48 -0500 Received: by x2p7.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC97B8.10C42D40@x2p7.gnt.com>; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:30:47 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC97B8.10C42D40@x2p7.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 576 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:30:30 -0500 Jim, >This would work, but with the sail diameters I've seen, the centripetal >acceleration required to keep the sail relatively flat (thought it would >still present a convex face to the transmitter) will tear the sail apart. It was just an idea, although on reflection, the torque on the central hub might be an even bigger problem. Lee Parker (o o) ------------------------------------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo--------- Bohr moved in atomic circles while Schrodinger waved and Heisenberg hesitated. From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 23 21:59 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3374" "Thu" "24" "July" "1997" "00:58:51" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "77" "Re: RE: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA13828 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com (emout06.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.97]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA13817 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:59:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA19931; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:58:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970724005851_291402061@emout06.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 3373 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl, owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: RE: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:58:51 -0400 (EDT) > In a message dated 7/23/97 2:07:30 AM, TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl > (Timothy van der Linden) wrote: > >Lee, > >Hoping that Zenon did quote your entire letter, here my comment > >> In rergards to shielding the cargo aeas of sail powered craft I think >> you are worrying too much. > >In my summary it is just on of many points. It is a problem that may arise, >but surely not the biggest. > >> I seem to remember that Forward performed all >> of these calculations. I will look them up to be sure. But, anything >> with sufficient power to require a lot of shielding on the cargo will >> MELT THE SAIL. > >True, but you got me thinking about something... > >I think most of us are still assuming that the sail is a mirror. This can be >true, but if so, it will not decelerate the ship unless we can make a >retro-mirror (or plasma-cloud mirror) work. (Kelly would you care writing a >short explanation about the plasma-cloud mirror for the new members?) Ok. Imagine a parabolic sail hung in frount of the ship like a parachute. Its shape is adjusted to keep the reflected microwaves focused backward into a smallar ring sail behind the ship (I.E. closer to Sol). The smaller sail focuses the beam forward into a beam passing through the middle of a ring shaped ship. Because of the two reflections your net thrust is zero. But then the focused microwave beam hits the plasma mirror the ship magnetically suspend in the volume inside the ring. The beam is reflected backwards where it hits a drag sail. The plasma is reflected (blasted) forward and is lost. Net thrust is from the drag sail, toward the microwave source. Note this assumes you can economically replace the plasma mirror mass. If you lose to much mass, you wouldn't be able to carry enough to sustain the mirror durring the deceleration phase. Oh, note that the mirror plasma will get hot! Probably enough to explode outward in all directions. This blast presure might be tapable to provide a bit of rocket thrust. My gut feel is that woldn't work thou. >The beaming concept looks nice, but its most essential problem is >deceleration. Using the "sail" as an energy collector to power some engine >(Kelly has a "simple" solution for that too) is the only option besides a >retro-reflection-mirror. > > Well Kevin had tinkered with the idea of using the microvave beam to power a reverse thrust rocket motor (M.A.R.S. - Microwave Augmented Rocket System) but I'm not sure where thats at. My idea was Fuel/Sail. You weave the sail out of a solid fussion fuel like Lithium-6. Lithium is a stiff metal, and should be adaptable as a sail material. The microwave beam accelerates the sail, which outweight the ship by a fantastic amount. After your boosted to cruse speed you pull in the sail into a solid plug in frount of the ship (for impact sheilding). When you reach the star system, you burn the fuel in fusion motors to decelerate you into the system. Since the sail can be any size you want. I scaled it to about 400 times the dry weight of the ship. That would let it decelerate from about 40%-43%(?) of light speed. Giving you a quick trip. For the ride back you mine more lithium-6. Burn it all accelerating back toward Sol. They deploy a compartivly tiny drag sail to decelerate you down into Sol (assuming someone will turn on the beam again). Kelly From owner-starship-design Wed Jul 23 22:00 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2568" "Thu" "24" "July" "1997" "00:59:27" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "65" "Re: starship-design: New Idea from non member" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA13904 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout18.mail.aol.com (emout18.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.44]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA13894 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout18.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA08225; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:59:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <970724005926_-1124128428@emout18.mail.aol.com> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2567 From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: New Idea from non member Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 00:59:27 -0400 (EDT) In a message dated 7/23/97 1:31:36 PM, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) wrote: >> From: KellySt@aol.com >> >> In a message dated 7/22/97 3:46:35 PM, jimaclem@juno.com wrote: >> >> >---------start new idea ------------------- >> > >> >Each transmitter could be a stationary fusion rocket with the beam >> >pointed in one direction, and the fusion exhaust (at very low speed) >> >pointed in the other. Since the whole thing is stationary, it could be >> >refueled periodicly by robot tenders. The fusion motor could tap most >> >of the kinetic/thermal energy of the fusion products to provide >> >electricity to power the transmitter, with a little left over kinetic >> >energy and a fair amount of mass to provide a counter balancing force. >> > >> >---------end new idea -------comments?----- >> >> Cool, that would also get around the problem of the transmiters >> moving during the transmition period. >> >Eh, what do you mean by "stationary"? >Nothing in space is stationary, it will always orbit >around (or falling at) some other body. >You may make it "stationary" with respect to the Sun >making it hover at a distance due to constant thrust >toward the Sun -- Yes, fixed (give or take) relative to the Sun and the target star. >--(I wonder how large thrust it should be >in the gravitational field of the Sun near the Earth orbit - >can physicists here calculate this?). However, the thrust >should also compensate for the recoil from the emitted >beam (quite large, I am afraid). >Moreover, refueling them would be a problem - a robot tender >going from Earth (or the asteroid belt) with the fuel >will have to decelerate away all its orbital speed >(30 km/s in the vicinity of Earth's orbit), >stay "stationary" on its rocket exhaust when at the transmitter >(or be firmly hooked to it, using transmitter increased thrust >for hovering) and then accelerate again to this speed when going back. >And such a manoeuver will certainly shatter a little >the transmitter itself, making the beam jiggling. If we can consider launching a starship, the fueling tug would be a trivial problem. >There will be similar problem with positioning the starship itself >on the straight-line (along the beam) course to the target system - >first you must somehow annihilate its orbiting speed around the Sun >(which will be essentially perpendicular to the direction >of the beam...). > >-- Zenon Again. Compared to the 100,000 kps the ships tring to push itself up to. 30 kps is noise. The equvelant to a ships manuvers in port to dock. Kelly From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 24 02:52 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1530" "Thu" "24" "July" "1997" "11:47:36" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "40" "Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id CAA13482 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 02:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA13470 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 02:52:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-020.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wrKa7-000FzIC; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:53:11 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1529 From: TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:47:36 +0100 Zenon, You wrote: >>My suggestion was to use part of the beam to blow clear the path. >>We may re-route a part of the beam to a more divergent beam >>which will push the few atoms in our way to the side. > >Or make the sail partially transparent. Doing that will push the particles mainly forward. We'd like them to be pushed aside, so the beam has to be a bit more divergent. >But these solutions further increase the beam power losses, >comparable to (or possibly larger than) those caused by the drag. >So it will not be the solution for the drag problem, >but possibly for the shielding problem. It indeed wasn't a solution for the drag, just for shielding. We might even use this to shield a self-powered ship. >I wonder how much energy in the beam will be needed to sweep clear >the space before the ship from dust and how big are the particles >that can be sweeped fast enough this way? Yes, I think it can. (assuming the beam is strong enough and divergent enough) Unless the particles are transparant for the radiation we use! >Note however, that the gas & fine dust pushed by that >"shielding beam" before the ship will accumulate into >a "shock wave" than can possibly destroy/pulverize >the larger debris way ahead of the ship. (*) True, but however using a divergent beam, the purpose is to get the particles out of our way as soon as possible. If possible we would not even like to accelerate it to the same speed as the ship. However if there is need, we might make the beam less divergent. Timothy From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 24 08:36 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2234" "Thu" "24" "July" "1997" "17:35:40" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "57" "Re: starship-design: Beamed power" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA06665 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:36:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.40]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA06638 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:36:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id RAA10972; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:35:40 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707241535.RAA10972@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2233 From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: starship-design: Beamed power Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:35:40 +0200 (MET DST) > From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" > >[...] > > > The tugs shepherding the sail will be needed in any case, > > especially if the whole construction should be able to make > > sideways manoeuvres to follow the jiggling (or spiraling) beam. > > I don't think sideways manuevers will be possible (or desirable) the > beam should be a straight line connecting the two suns. If any > sideways motion of the beam occurs, it will be either too fast (jitter) > or will take us away from the system. > Not all jitter must necessarily be fast - what about gravitational influences from a stray comet or asteroid sweeping through a few millions of kilometers from the transmitter? Also, we considered some time ago the design with the beam spiraling due to orbital motion (around the Sun) of the transmitter(s). Otherwise, the orbiting transmitter(s) must constantly change its (theirs) aim along the orbit, which may cause additional jitter, too fast to compensate adequately at the starship distance. > The number one problem with a beamed system is what to do if the power > cuts out. All I can think is that the crew will have to stay the course > and hope that earth gets things straightened out before the ship impacts > the target system's sun. > No way. Any message to Earth signaling the trouble will take years to go here, and the same time for the correction to appear at the starship place (not speaking about that the starship will be in quite a different place at the time...). If there CAN happen such thing as the beam veering to the side, I can see only two solutions: - a possibility of the ship to chase the beam (which means sideways motion); - send back the farewell messages and declare the mission to be "The First Valiant Suicide Interstellar Flight"... > > Concerning the shielding/drag problem: > [...] > > Perhaps a lower powered beam could be sent ahead by several months/years > It will probably not work - wwhen the ship moves forward, the beam-swept empty tunnell will be filled again with the matter moving from the sides. The "sweeping front" must be at all times not too far before the ship to prevent the filling. Remember - nothing is stationary in space... -- Zenon From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 24 08:51 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1154" "Thu" "24" "July" "1997" "17:50:42" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "29" "Re: RE: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA11771 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.40]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA11756 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id RAA10989; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:50:42 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707241550.RAA10989@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1153 From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: RE: starship-design: Timothy's beamed power paper Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:50:42 +0200 (MET DST) > From: KellySt@aol.com > > [...] > Note this assumes you can economically replace the plasma mirror mass. If > you lose to much mass, you wouldn't be able to carry enough to sustain the > mirror durring the deceleration phase. > > Oh, note that the mirror plasma will get hot! Probably enough to explode > outward in all directions. This blast presure might be tapable to provide a > bit of rocket thrust. My gut feel is that woldn't work thou. > Of course you can use such heated plasma as a rocked exhaust, why not? >[...] > Since the sail can be any size you want. I scaled it to about 400 times the > dry weight of the ship. That would let it decelerate from about 40%-43%(?) > of light speed. Giving you a quick trip. For the ride back you mine more > lithium-6. Burn it all accelerating back toward Sol. They deploy a > compartivly tiny drag sail to decelerate you down into Sol (assuming > someone will turn on the beam again). > And assuming you will be able to find the beam in the vastness of space... -- Zenon PS. Kelly, what happened to your charming spelling? I'm rely worrid about yor helth or somthing... ;-)) -- Z From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 24 08:56 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["677" "Thu" "24" "July" "1997" "17:55:47" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "21" "Re: starship-design: New Idea from non member" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id IAA12962 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.40]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA12938 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id RAA11003; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:55:47 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707241555.RAA11003@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa Content-Type: text Content-Length: 676 From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, KellySt@aol.com Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: starship-design: New Idea from non member Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:55:47 +0200 (MET DST) > From: KellySt@aol.com > > [...] > >There will be similar problem with positioning the starship itself > >on the straight-line (along the beam) course to the target system - > >first you must somehow annihilate its orbiting speed around the Sun > >(which will be essentially perpendicular to the direction > >of the beam...). > > > >-- Zenon > > Again. Compared to the 100,000 kps the ships tring to push itself up to. > 30 kps is noise. The equvelant to a ships manuvers in port to dock. > And probably the only solution would be to use a tug, like in seaports... You cannot make so fine (30km/s) maneouvers with all that hundreds of kilometers of sail. -- Zenon From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 24 11:19 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2137" "Thu" "24" "July" "1997" "13:07:06" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "53" "RE: starship-design: Beamed power" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA10674 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:19:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA10658 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:19:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p7.gnt.com (x2p13.gnt.com [204.49.68.218]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA10653 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:19:41 -0500 Received: by x2p7.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC9834.3B491D60@x2p7.gnt.com>; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:19:35 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC9834.3B491D60@x2p7.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 2136 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Beamed power Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:07:06 -0500 Zenon, Just a few comments... > >Not all jitter must necessarily be fast - >what about gravitational influences from a stray comet or asteroid >sweeping through a few millions of kilometers from the transmitter? >Also, we considered some time ago the design with >the beam spiraling due to orbital motion (around the Sun) >of the transmitter(s). Otherwise, the orbiting transmitter(s) >must constantly change its (theirs) aim along the orbit, >which may cause additional jitter, too fast to compensate >adequately at the starship distance. > > >No way. Any message to Earth signaling the trouble >will take years to go here, and the same time for >the correction to appear at the starship place >(not speaking about that the starship will be in quite >a different place at the time...). >If there CAN happen such thing as the beam veering to the side, >I can see only two solutions: >- a possibility of the ship to chase the beam > (which means sideways motion); >- send back the farewell messages and declare > the mission to be "The First Valiant Suicide Interstellar Flight"... > We will have a constant course prediction and update to steer the beam with. Unless you are planning some pretty radical course change maneuvers in mid mission, the time lag won't matter any. All that is really necessary is that the beam is steered on the correct course continuously and that the sail can perform minor steering to remain ON THE SAME COURSE. Ignore beam jitter, it should average out to the baseline of the course. You may experience some fluctuation in acceleration, but it also should be relatively minor, unless of course something drastic happens to radically alter either the beam's path or the ship's course. In which case, you're right, forget steering, and make your peace... Lee Parker (o o) ------------------------------------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo--------- Chaos n. Predictable unpredictability. Heuristic adj. Pertaining to a lucky guess. Quantum mechanics n. The ghost in the clockwork. Sex n. Nature's multiplication algorithm. From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 24 11:19 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1196" "Thu" "24" "July" "1997" "13:12:53" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "35" "RE: starship-design: New Idea from non member" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA10757 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA10691 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p7.gnt.com (x2p13.gnt.com [204.49.68.218]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA10663 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:19:47 -0500 Received: by x2p7.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC9834.403A1180@x2p7.gnt.com>; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:19:44 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC9834.403A1180@x2p7.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 1195 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: New Idea from non member Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:12:53 -0500 Zenon, >And probably the only solution would be to use a tug, >like in seaports... >You cannot make so fine (30km/s) maneuvers >with all that hundreds of kilometers of sail. Of course you can do it with the sail - sort of. Powered gravity assist around the sun to bring the speed up to just under escape velocity on an outbound course, then deploy the sail to add the last few m/sec and final course corrections. Actually, the argument you advanced is true of tugs because of the same arguments Kelly advanced against spinning the sail, it won't take that kind of point loading, you'll end up with the world's largest plate of sphagetti... Lee Parker (o o) ------------------------------------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo--------- "Thomas Godfrey, a self-taught mathematician, great in his way . . . knew little out of his way, and was not a pleasing companion; as, like most great mathematicians I have met with, he expected universal precision in everything said, or was forever denying or distinguishing upon trifles, to the disturbance of all conversation." -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), Autobiography From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 24 11:35 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4661" "Thu" "24" "July" "1997" "11:35:21" "-0700" "Ken Wharton" "wharton@physics.ucla.edu" nil "93" "starship-design: Back from the wed" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA16394 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from physics.ucla.edu (physics.ucla.edu [128.97.23.13]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA16368 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from watt by physics.ucla.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA10291; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:35:20 -0700 Received: by watt (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA14740; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:35:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707241835.LAA14740@watt> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wharton@physics.ucla.edu (Ken Wharton) Content-Type: text Content-Length: 4660 From: wharton@physics.ucla.edu (Ken Wharton) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Back from the wed Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:35:21 -0700 Gee - can't a guy go get married these days without coming home to hundreds of emails?? I have to confess I didn't read them all in depth, but I liked the recent idea of the Fuel/Sail, building the sail out of fusion materials. It got me thinking about using the sail for reaction mass for slowing down, and our months-old discussion about momentum/energy (P/E) ratios came to mind. (For all I know this has been discussed at length, so forgive me if I'm going over old ground) Photons have a very inefficient P/E, compared to massive particles, and I started thinking about catching beamed photons, and then transferring the energy into a massive particle, and shooting it forward. Assuming no energy is lost, the massive particle would have a higher P/E, and therefore you would lose more momentum to the particle (for a given energy) than you would gain from catching the photon and using it in the first place. The key equation is: E^2 = (K + mc^2)^2 = P^2 c^2 + M^2 c^4 This holds for both photons (M=0) and massive particles, where E is the total energy (including rest mass) and K is the kinetic energy (really all we care about) This simplifies to P^2 = K^2 / c^2 + 2 K M At this point I'm going to define E as the kinetic energy, and we can get replace those K's: P = [(E^2 / c^2) + 2 E M]^0.5 So if you "catch" some beamed energy (say 'E' joules) you gain a momentum of E/c. But if you can convert that energy to kinetic energy, and accelerate part of the sail forward, you can get a net backwards momentum out of the whole deal. If you want to have a net momentum loss of 2E/c (the same as your momentum gain for a reflecting sail), it turns out that every particle you accelerate forward must have a kinetic energy equal to exactly 1/4 of its rest mass, so M = 4E/c^2, and P = - 3E/c (backwards). Adding this to the E/c you gained from catching the beamed energy in the first place gives you a momentum loss of exactly - 2E/c; the same as you momentum gain during the accleration portion of the journey. Of course, things get more complicated once the ship starts losing mass. Fortunately, it works somewhat in our favor; less momentum is needed to slow the ship down when it's lighter. Turns out that accelerating a "mere" half of the total ship mass with the M/E=4/c^2 mass/energy ratio will slow the ship down from a third of lightspeed. Faster trips will require a larger Sail Mass / Ship Mass ratio. (I didn't do this relativistically, but I know some of you have those equations somewhere...) The biggest problem with losing mass (besides whittling away the sail without destroying it) will be that the sail will get too small too fast: we won't be able to "catch" all the energy once we start using up the sail as reaction mass. The amount of energy we need will drop in proportion to the mass of the ship as a whole, but the amount of energy we can catch (due to sail area) will drop faster, as the mass of the sail alone. However, given that we are talking about mass ratios of 400, these two masses are pretty much identical; with a sail that big the two values drop should drop pretty much at the same rate. So now the deceleration problem simply involves converting light energy to particle energy. Clearly the parabola-shaped sail will reflect the beamed power to an onboard engine. But not only do you have to have a decent conversion efficiency, but we're talking about huge amounts of energy we have to manipulate. Even if the "energy storage time" between receiving the power and shooting it off is very small, the net power the engine would have to handle would be terrible. Clearly a "passive-engine" scenario like the plasma mirror would be simplest, but we have to give a lot of photons to each proton to get the energy/mass ratio to come out right. Each proton will need 230GeV imparted to it, and it seems unlikely we can give a proton that much energy from a microwave beam without an "active" engine, where the energy distribution is manipulated by an accelerating structure. For mm-sized microwaves, this is 10^15 photons per proton! Perhaps starting off with a lower proton energy would be okay; if you transfer all the energy, the slower the protons the more you slow down, paradoxically enough. The problem with slow protons, though, is that you need a LOT of them to do the job of a few fast ones. If you shoot off too much mass too slow you'll run out of sail material before you can slow down enough... Run with this, someone... Ken Wharton "No brakes? Well, no point in steering now" (Bob MacKenzie, Strange Brew) From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 24 13:42 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1350" "Thu" "24" "July" "1997" "16:43:03" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "39" "Re: starship-design: Back from the wed" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id NAA10903 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA10865 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 13:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id QkK05390; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:40:17 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970724.164303.3502.0.jimaclem@juno.com> References: <199707241835.LAA14740@watt> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-25,30-37 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1349 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Back from the wed Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:43:03 -0400 On Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:35:21 -0700 wharton@physics.ucla.edu (Ken Wharton) writes: > >simplest, but we have to give a lot of photons to each proton to get >the >energy/mass ratio to come out right. Each proton will need 230GeV >imparted to it, and it seems unlikely we can give a proton that much >energy from a microwave beam without an "active" engine, where the >energy distribution is manipulated by an accelerating structure. For >mm-sized microwaves, this is 10^15 photons per proton! Perhaps >starting >off with a lower proton energy would be okay; if you transfer all the >energy, the slower the protons the more you slow down, paradoxically >enough. The problem with slow protons, though, is that you need a LOT > >of them to do the job of a few fast ones. If you shoot off too much >mass too slow you'll run out of sail material before you can slow down > >enough... > >Run with this, someone... > >Ken Wharton Okay, I'll run with it. How about using a small supply of antimatter ( not sure yet how much ) and using this to heat the reaction mass to high enough energies to make this efficient. For that matter, why not use the tanker ideas to launch reaction mass to a ship, while it only carries the necessary antimatter. Jim Clem > > >"No brakes? Well, no point in steering now" >(Bob MacKenzie, Strange Brew) > From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 24 14:54 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["876" "Thu" "24" "July" "1997" "14:54:42" "-0700" "Ken Wharton" "wharton@physics.ucla.edu" "<199707242154.OAA16250@watt>" "19" "starship-design: Antimatter" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id OAA11991 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 14:54:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from physics.ucla.edu (physics.ucla.edu [128.97.23.13]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA11979 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 14:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from watt by physics.ucla.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA28831; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 14:54:42 -0700 Received: by watt (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA16250; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 14:54:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707242154.OAA16250@watt> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wharton@physics.ucla.edu (Ken Wharton) Content-Type: text Content-Length: 875 From: wharton@physics.ucla.edu (Ken Wharton) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Antimatter Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 14:54:42 -0700 Er... make that 230MeV per proton, not GeV. That's a conversion of 10^12 mm microwave photons into each proton, not 10^15. Still a bunch, tho... As for antimatter, I guess the more energy sources the better. Keep in mind, though, that the result of antimatter annihilation is two photons, and photons are the worst possible way to turn energy into momentum. I guess my point was, though, that we don't need a second energy source (other than the beamed energy) -- it's possible to convert the incoming energy into a braking system. So we don't need more energy; we need a way to transfer it into 230MeV protons (or GeV alphas, or MeV electrons, etc., so long as the kinetic energy is roughly a quarter of the rest mass). Doing this on a huge scale, though... that's the tricky part. And keeping the forward beam neutral. And a bunch of other stuff no doubt... Ken From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 24 15:01 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["498" "Thu" "24" "July" "1997" "15:01:47" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu" nil "11" "starship-design: Antimatter" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA14798 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA14757; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:01:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707242201.PAA14757@darkwing.uoregon.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <199707242154.OAA16250@watt> References: <199707242154.OAA16250@watt> X-Mailer: VM 6.33 under 19.15p7 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 497 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: wharton@physics.ucla.edu (Ken Wharton) Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Antimatter Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Ken Wharton writes: > As for antimatter, I guess the more energy sources the better. Keep in mind, > though, that the result of antimatter annihilation is two photons, and > photons are the worst possible way to turn energy into momentum. Why do you people keep saying this? Photons are the _best_ way to turn energy into momentum. What's the momentum of 1 kg of mass converted into photons vs. the momentum of 1 kg of mass converted to energy and used to accelerate another 1 kg of mass? From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 24 15:32 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2053" "Thu" "24" "July" "1997" "15:32:40" "-0700" "Ken Wharton" "wharton@physics.ucla.edu" nil "52" "starship-design: Momentum" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA26962 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from physics.ucla.edu (physics.ucla.edu [128.97.23.13]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA26927 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:32:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from watt by physics.ucla.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA02356; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:32:40 -0700 Received: by watt (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA16586; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:32:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707242232.PAA16586@watt> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wharton@physics.ucla.edu (Ken Wharton) Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2052 From: wharton@physics.ucla.edu (Ken Wharton) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Momentum Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:32:40 -0700 >Why do you people keep saying this? Photons are the _best_ way to turn >energy into momentum. What's the momentum of 1 kg of mass converted >into photons vs. the momentum of 1 kg of mass converted to energy and >used to accelerate another 1 kg of mass? Steve, I'll restate the formula I just derived: P = [(E^2 / c^2) + 2 E M]^0.5 If you disagree with the way I derived this, let me know. Keep in mind that E is kinetic energy, not total energy (total energy includes rest mass). If you don't like the looks of it, check it out in the limits of M->0 and M>>E/c^2; you'll see you get the momentum/energy relationship of zero-mass and sub-relativistic objects respectively. If you take 1kg of mass and convert it to energy you get (1kg x c^2) = 10^17 Joules. The momentum of E = 10^17 Joules of photons is simply E/c, or P = 3 10^8 kg m/s. However, if you accelerate a 1kg object with the 10^17 Joules instead, you can use the above equation to find that P = [(10^17)^2 / c^2 + 2 10^17 1kg]^0.5 P = [3 10^17]^0.5 kg m/s P = 5.5 10^8 kg m/s (I've rounded here, but the answer should be exactly the square root of three greater than the photon case.) In this case the ratio between Mc^2 and E was 1; as this ratio gets bigger (either the mass is larger or the energy drops) the difference from the photon case gets even larger. I suggested a ratio of 4:1 as a way to get three times the momentum as the incident beamed energy. Another way to think about this would be to think about this would be to put a 100 watt bulb in a mirrored box on wheels, with a hole cut in one side. The box wouldn't go anywhere, despite the fact that 100Joules per second was streaming out in photons. The momentum per second would only be 100Joules/(3 10^8 m/s) = 3 10^-7 kg m/s. But if instead you put 100 Joules into a 2kg weight every second, they'll be flying out at 10m/s, one a second, with a very sizable momentum indeed (namely 20 kg m/s per second). The huge mass/energy ratio causes quite a difference in momentum. Ken From owner-starship-design Thu Jul 24 17:57 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["991" "Thu" "24" "July" "1997" "19:08:30" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "26" "RE: starship-design: Back from the wed" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id RAA18325 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurricane.gnt.net (root@hurricane.gnt.net [204.49.53.3]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA18310 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:56:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x2p7.gnt.com (x2p5.gnt.com [204.49.68.210]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA01886 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:56:56 -0500 Received: by x2p7.gnt.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC986B.BAEABD80@x2p7.gnt.com>; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:56:52 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <01BC986B.BAEABD80@x2p7.gnt.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 990 From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design To: "'LIT Starship Design Group'" Subject: RE: starship-design: Back from the wed Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:08:30 -0500 Ken, >Okay, I'll run with it. How about using a small supply of antimatter ( >not sure yet how much ) and using this to heat the reaction mass to high >enough energies to make this efficient. For that matter, why not use the >tanker ideas to launch reaction mass to a ship, while it only carries the >necessary antimatter. Now for Jim's end run, suppose that we do build a small antimatter rocket of some sort. Let us make the sail out of vacuum deposited Tungsten which is also refractory and is still quite strong. It is almost as massive as Uranium, which might give us a great deal more thrust when we start to feed it to the antimatter rocket to decelerate. Lee Parker (o o) ------------------------------------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo--------- I stared into the sky, As wondering men have always done Since beauty and the stars were one, Though none so hard as I. Ralph Hodgson, 1871 - 1962, Song of Honor From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 25 14:37 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["828" "Fri" "25" "July" "1997" "15:37:26" "-0700" "kyle" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "20" "starship-design: Propulsion ideas" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id OAA19658 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 14:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fh101.infi.net (fh101.infi.net [208.131.160.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA19648 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 14:37:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dcp2-110.gpt.infi.net (dcp2-110.gpt.infi.net [207.0.193.110]) by fh101.infi.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA17361 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 17:37:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <33D92AA5.3811@sunherald.infi.net> Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: kyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Length: 827 From: kyle Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Propulsion ideas Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:37:26 -0700 Greetings: I saw the threads about solar sail ships, and found them interesting. One thought: wouldn't it be more efficient to use an onboard laser, and shoot it out the back for thrust? The problem: Need energy (and lots of it) to run that kind of laser. Is this really a problem? No. Use ZPE lasers. The ZPE could provide the energy, which in turn is converted into a laser beam, and shot out the back for propulsion. And if I remember correctly, there was general support for ZPE in mid-june. One other idea: If ZPE cannot be easily turned into useful energy, it can still be used for propulsion. How? ZPE sails! And this WAS looked into by nasa and deemed quite possible. Any ideas? Kyle Mcallister "The secrets of flight will not be mastered within our lifetime...not within a thousand years." --Wilbur Wright, 1901 From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 25 15:40 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1133" "Fri" "25" "July" "1997" "15:40:15" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "26" "starship-design: Momentum" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA12531 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:40:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA12494 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:40:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [198.68.17.19]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA23387 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:39:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA02315; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:40:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707252240.PAA02315@tzadkiel.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <199707242232.PAA16586@watt> References: <199707242232.PAA16586@watt> X-Mailer: VM 6.33 under 19.15p7 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 1132 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Momentum Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:40:15 -0700 Ken Wharton writes: > Steve, > > I'll restate the formula I just derived: > > P = [(E^2 / c^2) + 2 E M]^0.5 > > If you disagree with the way I derived this, let me know. Keep in mind > that E is kinetic energy, not total energy (total energy includes rest > mass). If you don't like the looks of it, check it out in the limits of > M->0 and M>>E/c^2; you'll see you get the momentum/energy relationship > of zero-mass and sub-relativistic objects respectively. On the surface, your equation is correct enough. I think the problem I'm having is that in a different context I derived rather convincingly that photons are the best possible reaction product, in the sense that you get the most momentum per unit of fuel if you can convert the fuel completely to photons, which is somewhat different than what you're saying. I'm going to have to go over my notes when I get home to figure out what we're differing on in more detail. Until then, I'll leave you with the question: When your spaceship picks up the energ E from some photons, where are you putting the momentum of the photons? It can't be ignored. From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 25 16:09 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1949" "Fri" "25" "July" "1997" "16:09:22" "-0700" "Ken Wharton" "wharton@physics.ucla.edu" nil "45" "starship-design: Both right" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id QAA22056 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:09:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from physics.ucla.edu (physics.ucla.edu [128.97.23.13]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id QAA22046 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from watt by physics.ucla.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA24525; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:09:22 -0700 Received: by watt (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA23393; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:09:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707252309.QAA23393@watt> Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wharton@physics.ucla.edu (Ken Wharton) Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1948 From: wharton@physics.ucla.edu (Ken Wharton) Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Both right Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:09:22 -0700 Steve writes: >On the surface, your equation is correct enough. I think the problem >I'm having is that in a different context I derived rather convincingly >that photons are the best possible reaction product, in the sense that >you get the most momentum per unit of fuel if you can convert the fuel >completely to photons, which is somewhat different than what you're >saying. I'm going to have to go over my notes when I get home to figure >out what we're differing on in more detail. Yes, that's right. In the example you gave, the photons only had access to 1kg (the energy), while the block had access to 2kg (1kg energy plus 1kg reaction mass) which made the comparison unfair. You're right; for a given amount of reaction mass AND energy you will get the most momentum with photons. But for a given amount of energy only (ignoring the reaction mass) the best bet is massive objects. But, given that the sail is somewhat useless once we start to decelerate, we have reaction mass to spare, so this doesn't do anything to harm my deceleration scheme. You state: >Until then, I'll leave you with the question: When your spaceship picks >up the energ E from some photons, where are you putting the momentum of >the photons? It can't be ignored. The momentum of the photons is not ignored; it speeds up the ship, with an absorbed momentum of E/c, where E is the "caught" energy. I showed earlier, though, how you could use this same amount of energy (plus part of the sail itself as reaction mass) to slow down the ship by a momentum equal to 3E/c. The NET momentum loss (with no energy output) is only 2E/c, because you absorbed the momentum of the photons in the first place. As for the suggestion about making a heavy-element sail so there would be more reaction mass to slow down the ship, don't forget we have to speed this thing up before we can slow it down! The lighter the better, I think... Ken From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 25 16:18 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1442" "Fri" "25" "July" "1997" "16:17:43" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "27" "starship-design: Both right" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id QAA25443 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA25433 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (tzadkiel.efn.org [198.68.17.19]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA27425; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) id QAA02403; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:17:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: <199707252317.QAA02403@tzadkiel.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <199707252309.QAA23393@watt> References: <199707252309.QAA23393@watt> X-Mailer: VM 6.33 under 19.15p7 XEmacs Lucid Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 1441 From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design To: wharton@physics.ucla.edu (Ken Wharton) Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Both right Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:17:43 -0700 Ken Wharton writes: > >Until then, I'll leave you with the question: When your spaceship picks > >up the energ E from some photons, where are you putting the momentum of > >the photons? It can't be ignored. > > The momentum of the photons is not ignored; it speeds up the ship, with > an absorbed momentum of E/c, where E is the "caught" energy. I showed > earlier, though, how you could use this same amount of energy (plus part > of the sail itself as reaction mass) to slow down the ship by a momentum > equal to 3E/c. The NET momentum loss (with no energy output) is only > 2E/c, because you absorbed the momentum of the photons in the first > place. > > As for the suggestion about making a heavy-element sail so there would > be more reaction mass to slow down the ship, don't forget we have to > speed this thing up before we can slow it down! The lighter the better, > I think... OK, I think I'm satisfied. I agree that as long as you shed mass you can decelerate even though the beam is still pushing you. I was having flashbacks to a previous discussion from a couple of years ago where Kevin (I think) thought he had come up with a way to redirect the beam using angled reflectors to decelerate without using reaction mass, which I couldn't swallow. The ensuing flurry of letters was educational for everyone involved. I'll have to see about making those old letters available in the archives. From owner-starship-design Fri Jul 25 18:02 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["876" "Fri" "25" "July" "1997" "21:04:27" "-0400" "jimaclem@juno.com" "jimaclem@juno.com" nil "16" "starship-design: Long range fuel tankers" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id SAA27245 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 18:02:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA27236 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 18:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jimaclem@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id VXG03600; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 21:01:32 EDT X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-ID: <19970725.210427.14358.1.jimaclem@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 12-14 Errors-To: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jimaclem@juno.com Content-Type: text Content-Length: 875 From: jimaclem@juno.com Sender: owner-starship-design To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Long range fuel tankers Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 21:04:27 -0400 I have a question. I've been studying the fuel/sail and rair papers (VERY INTERESTING) and a thought comes to me. Since decelerating at the target is important (obviously!) Why not launch a HUGE stream of fuel tankers along with the ship in such a fashion that when the time for retro comes, It starts catching these tankers, with a line of them behind the ship catching up with it. In fact, it seems that we could have the ship build up the required fuel mass acceleration and deceleration. Possibly the ship could carry its own laser deceleration system to help catch them. The timing would be critical, but its easier than worrying about huge sails, and massive microwave generators. The ship could then set up a series of automated factories, like the papers suggest, to make return fuel, acceleration lasers, etc. I'll see if I can work something up on this. Jim From owner-starship-design Sat Jul 26 10:09 PDT 1997 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1686" "Sat" "26" "July" "1997" "19:03:26" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "TLG.van.der.Linden@tip.nl" nil "47" "starship-design: Kevin's theory" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id KAA06261 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 10:09:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helium.tip.nl (helium.tip.nl [195.18.64.71]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA06212 for ; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 10:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hengelo-022.std.pop.tip.nl by helium.tip.nl with smtp (Smail3.2 #12) id m0wsAKz-000GnCC; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 19:09:01 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design using -f Message-Id: X-Sender: t596675@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1