From VM Mon Oct 29 09:54:49 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["682" "Friday" "26" "October" "2001" "21:54:43" "EDT" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "17" "starship-design: Bad News" "^From:" nil nil "10" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 682 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9R1srY04519 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 18:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imo-m03.mx.aol.com (imo-m03.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.6]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9R1spA04510 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 18:54:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.8.) id z.c.1d3f1d95 (14374); Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:54:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, rddesign@rddesigns.com, Shealiak@XS4ALL.nl Subject: starship-design: Bad News Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:54:43 EDT I just got bad news a few minutes ago. Rex Finke, who used the E-mail address DotarSojat (Dotar Sojat was the name the green Martians gave John Carter.) was killed Monday, Oct 22, while flying his little Challenger II. Don't have the accident report yet but from what I've heard it was probably engine failure. He was a major poster in the LIT group when it was at its height a few years ago. He also was a great technical source of info since he was on a bunch of space projects. Probably the most famous being the Orion pulse fusion design project. He was also a good friend. His funeral is Saturday 10-27 at 3PM at Miller Funeral Home in Woodbridge, VA. Kelly From VM Mon Oct 29 09:54:49 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["634" "Friday" "26" "October" "2001" "21:16:57" "-0500" "Kyle R. Mcallister" "stk@sunherald.infi.net" nil "14" "Re: starship-design: Bad News" "^From:" nil nil "10" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 634 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9R2Ntb15518 for starship-design-outgoing; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 19:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9R2NsA15511 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 19:23:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oemcomputer.sunherald.infi.net (pool-63.52.29.44.mhub.grid.net [63.52.29.44]) by hall.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA17036 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 22:23:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20011026211246.02192eb0@pop.infi-net.mindspring.com> X-Sender: stk@pop.infi-net.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Kyle R. Mcallister" From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: Bad News Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:16:57 -0500 >Rex Finke, who used the E-mail address DotarSojat (Dotar Sojat was the name >the green Martians gave John Carter.) was killed Monday, Oct 22, while flying >his little Challenger II. Don't have the accident report yet but from what >I've heard it was probably engine failure. I've little to say, aside from the fact that I feel very saddened to hear this. Rex was indeed a great source of information, both on and off list. I communicated with him on more than one occasion about advanced propulsion concepts of various types. He was very helpful in these discussions. Rex, you will be missed, my friend. --Kyle R. Mcallister From VM Mon Oct 29 10:51:05 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1605" "Monday" "29" "October" "2001" "10:47:15" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu" nil "35" "starship-design: Bad News" "^From:" nil nil "10" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1605 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9TIlIO15266 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:47:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f9TIlG315253; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:47:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15325.42035.850373.623236@darkwing.uoregon.edu> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.96 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Steve VanDevender From: Steve VanDevender Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: Bad News Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:47:15 -0800 KellySt@aol.com writes: > I just got bad news a few minutes ago. > > Rex Finke, who used the E-mail address DotarSojat (Dotar Sojat was > the name the green Martians gave John Carter.) was killed Monday, Oct > 22, while flying his little Challenger II. Don't have the accident > report yet but from what I've heard it was probably engine failure. > > He was a major poster in the LIT group when it was at its height a > few years ago. He also was a great technical source of info since he > was on a bunch of space projects. Probably the most famous being the > Orion pulse fusion design project. > > He was also a good friend. > > His funeral is Saturday 10-27 at 3PM at Miller Funeral Home in > Woodbridge, VA. This is sad news. I always appreciated Rex's contributions, and I think of all of us he had the best understanding of the technical problems of interstellar travel. Rex wrote an excellent paper that collects and summarizes many of the results of our discussions on the LIT forums and mailing lists and this mailing list. It's highly recommended reading for anyone new to the list interested in what we've talked about so far. Some time ago he gave me a copy that I put up in our mailing list archive in Microsoft Word (.doc) and Postscript (.ps): http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~stevev/sd-archive/starflight.doc http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~stevev/sd-archive/starflight.ps I think it would also be appropriate to have a brief memorial statement as part the mailing list welcome message, if people would like to do that. Would anyone like to suggest the wording? From VM Thu Nov 15 10:31:10 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["7029" "Thursday" "15" "November" "2001" "18:51:22" "+0100" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" nil "139" "starship-design: The URANOS Club Newsletter No. 7" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 7029 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fAFHpdQ03349 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 09:51:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (zmit1.ippt.gov.pl [148.81.53.8]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fAFHpYH03267 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 09:51:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from zkulpa@localhost) by zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (8.8.5/8.7.3-zmit) id SAA21537 for starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 18:51:22 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200111151751.SAA21537@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl> Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Zenon Kulpa From: Zenon Kulpa Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: starship-design: The URANOS Club Newsletter No. 7 Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 18:51:22 +0100 (MET) --------------------------------------------------------------- --> http://www.uranos.eu.org/ <-- * * **** *** * * *** **** * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * * **** ***** * * * * * *** * * * * * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * *** * * * * * * *** **** CLUB * for * EXPANSION * of * CIVILIZATION * into * SPACE --------------------------------------------------------------- No. 7 URANOS CLUB NEWSLETTER 11.XI.2001 This is the new issue of our irregularly published electronic newsletter. To receive further issues of this newsletter individually, please send a letter stating so to the address: --------------------------------------------------------------- We apologize for a long delay (over a year) in issuing our (normal) Newsletter. It reflects a long delay in developing the new edition of our site, due to a limited productivity of the editors caused in part by their involvement with new Polish initiatives in the field of space exploration. Also, though we have appealed for new teammembers in our previous Newsletters, it is only quite recently that an additional member for our editorial team has volunteered (welcome! - see the URANOS Group page). Despite the delay, we were updating and extending our site incrementally according to current needs. E.g., before issuing the new edition we added the items described below. The preliminary version of the new edition was put on the web a considerable time before this Newsletter is issued. Its distribution has been delayed additionally due to recent events (see the previous Newsletter No. 6). Since the changes and additions concerned practically only the Polish language pages (we are short of time and hands to translate larger parts of our site into English), this English version of the Newsletter gives only short account of the most important changes. - The page "What to Do in Poland" underwent most changes and updates, as we tried to inform of all current events and other possibilities of active involvement in space-related activity in Poland. Among others, we informed about: -- Petition for sending the "Marie Curie" rover to Mars. -- Results of subsequent stages of various space-related competitions open to Polish participants, like "Red Rover Goes to Mars" (where several Polish participants got final awards and special mentions), two competitions connected with the opening of International Space Station, "Space Odyssey 2001", "Hakluyt Prize", and "Life in the Universe" competitions, and Shoemaker grants results. -- New possibilities for participation of Polish industry in space-related contracts with European Space Agency. -- Development of the Polish Mars Pressurized Vehicle project (within The Mars Society competition). -- Starting of studies in astronautics at Warsaw Technical University. -- The forthcoming space propulsion conference in Warsaw. - Three new books were added to the recommended books page: "Again to the Moon" by A. Marks, "And Yet There Was a deluge" by A. & E. Tollmann, and "A Photographic Moon Atlas" by J. Cook (all in Polish translation, of course). - New items were added to the pages of Polish space institutions and organizations. Main changes in the new edition of the URANOS site -------------------------------------------------- - A new part of the site named "A Settler's Guide to the Solar System" was launched. Its aim is to inform about perspectives of human settlement outside Earth. As yet only a part of the intended contents is ready, including some general information about the Solar System, basic data about inner (Earth-like) planets, and more extensive sections on Mars and Moon, describing also perspectives of their colonization. - The library of links to other space sites has been generally updated and restructured into a web of separate thematic pages. - Library of Polish space sities is still in the process of verification and update. Other information ----------------- - The URANOS server continues to host the websities of The Polish Astronautical Society and its journal "Astronautics", as well as the e-mail list of the Mars Society Polska governing board. The server changed also its geographical location, which caused temporary access problems. - The Editor-in-Chief of the URANOS site became a member of the Astronautics and Space Technology Commission of the Space Research Committee of the Polish Academy of Sciences. - The discussion list now counts about 70 subscribers. Special information - The URANOS Club is over three years old! -------------------------------------------------------------- - On August 18, 2001, exactly three years have passed since the official appearance of our site on the Web. In that time, our site has been rebuilt and extended many times, gathering many new supporters and fans on our two e-mail lists and , and on the distribution list for the Club Newsletter. An excerpt from the usage statistics for the second year of activity shows among others: -- the total number of hits: about 360,000 (i.e., a more than 70% increase compared with the prevoius year); -- average numbers of hits: . per month: around 30,000 (peak values: 45,414 in November 2000; 41,998 in March and 39,518 in January 2001), . per day: around 1,800 (peak values: 2,983 on Nov. 14, 2000; 2,161 on Mar. 15, 2001; and 2,032: on Dec. 11, 2000). A continuous appeal to our sympathizers --------------------------------------- - We invite you warmly to join us and help us in the development of the site - details how to do it can be found on the "Activity" page. Active collaborators, who contribute to the development of the site, will be, of course, listed on our pages, or incorporated into the team of site editors, not counting their personal satisfaction coming from contributing to the realization of the Club goals. - All our visitors are encouraged to send us reports about any errors noticed on the site. We are especially interested in verification of all the links to other websites included in our pages. Please send us wrong addresses and dead links, providing the exact indication of the page containing them, the wrong address, and its anchor (i.e., the text fragment to which the link is attached). If possible, provide also the correct address if you know it, or are able to find it. Your cooperation will help us in providing an up-to-date information on our site, useful for current and potential fans of our Club and other space enthusiasts. --------------------------------------------------------------- Please forward! From VM Mon Nov 26 10:05:00 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["376" "Thursday" "22" "November" "2001" "08:19:36" "-0800" "Curtis Manges" "clmanges@yahoo.com" nil "15" "starship-design: thanks" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 376 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fAMGJdH09641 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 22 Nov 2001 08:19:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13609.mail.yahoo.com (web13609.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.9]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id fAMGJae09636 for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2001 08:19:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20011122161936.87160.qmail@web13609.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.148.89.74] by web13609.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 22 Nov 2001 08:19:36 PST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Curtis Manges From: Curtis Manges Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: Bryan Briskey , Josef Christoffer , Brian Eastman , Thaddeus Edens , John Fox , Mike Hedgpath , Mark Hockenberry , Amee Manges , "Michael O'Connell" , Ted Rodgers , Kevin Rothwell , starship-design , Chris Blank , Gary Cox , John Dickinson , Todd Huller , Phil Meeks , Bruce Reed , Jon Zumwinkle Subject: starship-design: thanks Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 08:19:36 -0800 (PST) Along with everything else that we usually stop to offer gratitude for on this day, I simply wish to thank all of you for enriching my life. Peace, Curtis ===== get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From VM Mon Dec 17 10:26:46 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6435" "Saturday" "15" "December" "2001" "07:35:01" "-0600" "L. Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "135" "starship-design: The Space Phase" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 6435 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBFDaPN13311 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 05:36:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from traffic.gnt.net (root@traffic.gnt.net [204.49.53.5]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBFDaO713303 for ; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 05:36:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from broadsword (host121-208-45-64.utelfla.com [64.45.208.121] (may be forged)) by traffic.gnt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id HAA15058 for ; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 07:36:24 -0600 Message-ID: <000801c1856d$4ce4ff50$0201a8c0@broadsword> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C1853B.024F4A40" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "L. Parker" From: "L. Parker" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship-Design List \(E-mail\)" Subject: starship-design: The Space Phase Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 07:35:01 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C1853B.024F4A40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Space Phase Los Angeles - Nov 11, 2001 Why don't we have the spacefaring future we imagined? Several writers in this space have provided answers. But a recent remark of editor Simon Mansfield caused a perspective shift: rather than wondering why, he asked "what happened?" Stepping back from the details brought the answer into focus. What happened was that the "Space Age" was in fact a "Space Phase," the last era of an Industrial Age now as dead and past as the Jurassic. Space has been trapped in the bloodless grip of bureaucratic-industrial zombies from that lost world, while the space movement has yet to find its way into the Information Age. So here we sit, Earthbound. In every aspect, the Apollo Program and its Soviet counterpart marked the culmination of the Industrial Age. Ideologically-driven state mobilization of labor, great power rivalry, industrial gigantism, the primacy of non-consumer production, pyramidal management structures, a focus on engineering feats, the leading role of the military in developing and using technology - the list goes on. The Moon race would have made perfect sense to Henry Ford, or the architects of the first Soviet Five-Year Plan, or Ulysses Grant. Lewis and Clark would have been as baffled as any post-Apollo teen by the rhetoric and methods of the space race. By no means does this detract from Apollo's achievement; simply, Apollo marked its time. That time was coming to an end even as men walked on the Moon. The ability of government to command the hearts and minds of a vast industrial working class was fading, undone by Vietnam, assassinations, and the growing sophistication of an audience made savvier by exposure to the sales pitches of television. We were becoming vastly more diverse in politics, social class, age and interests. No longer would government exhortations galvanize a nation, as they had through the Depression, hot and cold wars and the space race. That time was past, not to return. Also past was the utility of the management methods of the Industrial Age. Governmental management by procurement worked during the great wars and forced industrializations of the last century. But the rise of the Information Age marked faster decision cycles, radically flattened management structures and immense flexibility and responsiveness in the consumer sector. For government-led industry, the pace of change exceeded management ability. It was widely joked that in time the entire Pentagon budget would go to procuring only one infinitely expensive, utterly obsolete airplane - a joke NASA has proven in earnest. Innovations in information technology helped discredit and weaken the industrial state: CNN and the fax machine did as much to end tyranny as the wiretap and AK-47 did to build it. New communications and data processing tools revitalized and globalized capitalism, enabling market-driven technological development at a pace that left governments and nationalized industries in the dust. Information technology critically enabled the globalization of capital flows, transferring vast power out of governmental and into capitalist hands. While government budgets remain immense, the amount of wealth in private hands is sufficient for private space missions to become financially feasible. In the 1970s and 1980s the world changed, and the Information Age began. "Bits, not atoms," in John Negroponte's famous phrase, became the source of value, the draw for bright young people, the driver for utopian dreams. And how did the space establishment respond? With bigger throwaway rockets and the multi-governmental International Space Station - an answer natural to Kennedy or Khrushchev, but utterly irrelevant in the new era. Cyberspace speaks to the post-industrial generation in a way the old message of outer space cannot hope to match. The world of bits is hands-on, hobbyist, playful, creative, responsive, connective, participatory: everything government-procurement space programs are not. NASA's message has been that space travel is safe and routine - yet still so dangerous that ordinary people must be kept out. That's Industrial Age thinking: bureaucratic-elitist, anti-consumer, slow to adapt to change. In the Information Age, extreme sports fascinate us, and industries arise to cater to that interest: Everest-travel companies for the brave, reality TV for the couch potato, clothing and gear companies for explorer and wannabe alike. A Space Phase of the Information Age could look like that: a Spacefaring Web networking all levels of interest and participation, an industry of consumer-focused space companies, driven by creating and transmitting experience, opening an age of creative ferment in the technologies of living, working - and most especially, playing - in space. What must happen next is for the space movement to learn the language of the Information Age, to advocate goals and methods that speak to the soul of the new machine, that advance rather than fight the trends of this Age, that speak to a youth raised not on rockets, tanks and steel mills, but on experience, image and change. Then - and only then - will we enter the Space Phase of the Information Age. John Carter McKnight is a former corporate finance attorney and member of the Board of Directors of the Space Frontier Foundation. His weekly column, MarsNow, builds on the themes of this article and is available by email by contacting info@space-frontier.org ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C1853B.024F4A40 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="SandCastle Contractors, Inc. Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="SandCastle Contractors, Inc. Parker, L. Clayton (E-mail).vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Parker;L. FN:L. Clayton Parker (E-mail) ORG:SandCastle Contractors, Inc. TEL;WORK;VOICE:(850) 650-6588 TEL;HOME;VOICE:(850) 654-4773 TEL;CELL;VOICE:(850) 585-5502 TEL;CAR;VOICE:(850) 585-5504 TEL;WORK;FAX:(850) 650-6588 ADR;WORK:;;P.O. Box 1762;Destin;FL;32540-1762 LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:P.O. Box 1762=3D0D=3D0ADestin, FL = 32540-1762 EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:lparker@cacaphony.net REV:20011020T212607Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C1853B.024F4A40-- From VM Mon Dec 17 10:26:46 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1166" "Saturday" "15" "December" "2001" "18:01:59" "EST" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "31" "Re: starship-design: The Space Phase" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1166 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBFN23P09020 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 15:02:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-r04.mx.aol.com (imo-r04.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.100]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBFN22709007 for ; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 15:02:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from KellySt@aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.9.) id z.131.5b4b0e0 (3657) for ; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 18:01:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <131.5b4b0e0.294d3067@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: KellySt@aol.com From: KellySt@aol.com Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: starship-design: The Space Phase Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 18:01:59 EST In a message dated 12/15/01 7:39:05 AM, lparker@cacaphony.net writes: >The Space Phase > > > >Los Angeles - Nov 11, 2001 > >Why don't we have the spacefaring future we imagined? Several writers in > >this space have provided answers. But a recent remark of editor Simon > >Mansfield caused a perspective shift: rather than wondering why, he asked > >"what happened?" Stepping back from the details brought the answer into > >focus. This guy has a lot of imagry and not a wit of insight. The space race was a successful political PR battle across th world. It was done at all costs, and that doesn't develope efficent systems. The legacy's of that are a huge "space program" buracracy with little to do but defend its turf from intruders, extreamly expensive systems that are most cost efective only if you have no interest in using them often, and a concept of space flight as a immensely expensive and nearly imposible activity done for show. This isn't a reflection of dinosaur industrial age mind set. Frankly e veryone that uses phrases like that trips up. All the folks in the dot.com collapses ran their companies based on slogans like that. From VM Tue Dec 18 10:26:00 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4305" "Monday" "17" "December" "2001" "19:02:24" "-0600" "bugzapper" "bugzappr@bellsouth.net" nil "70" "starship-design: Vapor Trail Fuel" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 4305 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBI0xDg00013 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:59:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from imf13bis.bellsouth.net (mail213.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.58.153]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBI0x7729995 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:59:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from nless ([66.157.13.196]) by imf13bis.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.00 201-253-122-122-20010827) with SMTP id <20011218010013.HVXR29297.imf13bis.bellsouth.net@nless> for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:00:13 -0500 Message-ID: <002601c1875f$a7ec2b00$c40d9d42@nless> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "bugzapper" From: "bugzapper" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship Design List" Subject: starship-design: Vapor Trail Fuel Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:02:24 -0600 Externally Fueled Boost Vehicles A notion I came up with for an air breathing boost vehicle, is to scavenge a deliberately laid trail of vapor phase fuel in free air. I have been struck by aerial photos of smoke, dust, etc., how in favorable conditions they can cohere as a long linear trail, for a very great distance before ultimately mixing with the surrounding air by diffusion. Now this is a recipe for air pollution, definitely, for the vehicle can by no means scoop up all the fuel released. The fuel molecules, though, would be relatively innocuous hydrocarbons or alcohols, which are found in the air anyway, and are rapidly broken down by natural processes. We are also talking about a relatively small controlled release from a couple thousand feet altitude, most of which will be burned off in a matter of seconds. The obvious advantage in gleaning fuel out of a vapor stream in free air, is weight savings in the vehicle. For this phase of the flight, only a scoop and combustion chamber are in use. Plowing through the thick air down at a couple thousand feet, in level flight over an ocean, is not normally a good place to try to build high velocity. This leg of the flight would be limited to achieving high supersonic velocity, no more. Still, use of the technique should save much of the weight of a ground-launched air breather which carries its own fuel, which is in turn only half the weight of a ground-launched rocket vehicle which must also tote its own oxidizer. The fuel stream should be composed of a vapor which approximates the density of air, so it will neither sink fast nor rise fast. Hydrocarbons like hexane, heptane and octane fill the bill here. These are the major constituents of gasoline, which is cheap. The fuel should be released from a tethered floating aerostat, into a steady westerly breeze, so the fuel streamer extends straight East. The fuel is very visible in the infrared bands, so guesswork is not involved. The launch may be timed to catch an overhead passage of the Jet Stream, though this 200-300 mph extra speed is really negligible when reaching for orbital velocity. The vehicle may be lifted up into the fuel stream either under its own power, or by various launch assistance techniques. This segment of level flight might seem almost a detour, for a vehicle headed way up yonder, but it should boost the vehicle to Mach 4 practically for free, in terms of onboard expendables. A steep change of angle, after the vapor trail has been practically consumed, will cost little of the kinetic energy built up, won't slow it down much. My proposal is to synchronize the ascent phase with another externally fueled flight concept. This would be the hydrogen shock tube, which I have mentioned here before. A large hydrogen aerostat positioned under the diffusion end of the vapor trail, is angled to align with the projected trajectory of the ascent phase of the oncoming lift vehicle. At just the proper time, the explosive fabric composing this gas bag is ignited from the rear. This creates a progressive implosion of the aerostat, which drives the contained hydrogen out in a hypersonic jet, to lay fresh fuel into the flight trajectory. It may seem the hydrogen would burn off at once, but such combustion fronts travel at the speed of sound, and the vehicle on entering it is already traveling four times faster. But my hydrogen shock tube wasn't received favorably here last time, evidently makes people nervous. Count it as an option. This post is about the vapor trail as external fuel, so just assume you're going on internal fuel after you pull the nose up. Still you've saved quite a lot of weight in your vehicle. Lighter means faster and way cheaper, more access. Actually I was thinking in kind of survivalist terms, a last-ditch way to haul lots of people off a planet in hazard, when I came up with a gasoline streamer method of flight vehicle acceleration. That to my mind, mitigated the obvious pollution drawback of this method. But people should consider the concept of externally-fueled air breathing boosters, because they seem to me about the best way to go if we ever do get the method right. There's a way to shoot fuel up just right so a ship can use it, a ship with just scoop, engine and payload. Johnny Thunderbird From VM Tue Dec 18 15:55:08 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1785" "Tuesday" "18" "December" "2001" "17:12:48" "-0600" "bugzapper" "bugzappr@bellsouth.net" nil "41" "Re: starship-design: Cryogenic Suspension" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1785 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBIN9ik03596 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 15:09:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from imf24bis.bellsouth.net (mail124.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.58.84]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBIN9h703587 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 15:09:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from nless ([66.157.13.196]) by imf24bis.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.00 201-253-122-122-20010827) with SMTP id <20011218231955.DBQX22073.imf24bis.bellsouth.net@nless>; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:19:55 -0500 Message-ID: <00e701c18819$82b144a0$c40d9d42@nless> References: <6f.133319b0.27f3f64b@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "bugzapper" From: "bugzapper" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: , Subject: Re: starship-design: Cryogenic Suspension Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 17:12:48 -0600 OK! This is the message I somehow missed last March! (Guess maybe I was cringing too hard at Steve's news: that bears don't hibernate, they estivate.) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 8:22 PM Subject: Re: starship-design: Cryogenic Suspension > Their is also a new proces called vitrification. In it the person is chilled > down to below freezing under presure. With enough presure you can chill > someone down to a very low temp without freezing. Suddenly drop the presure > at that point, and the fluids freeze so fast it doesn't crystalize. It turns > to glass. No ice crystal damage. > > Cryonics folks are very excited. Well I'm excited too. Sounds better than a thousand platinum needles to me. But --- I don't want to retain consciousness for any procedure that makes me cold. I'm supersensitive to being chilled; it's directly painful to me. I have a horror of cold water. I am quite aware that general anesthesia is a risky medical technique, and that in general any method which may force unconsciousness in a person can also cause death. But unbearable pain can also cause death. So I'd prefer not to have to endure any coolth. Obviously the warmup would have to be slow. This is a hyperbaric process, so it will expose the reviving body to all the perils that deep sea divers face: the bends, oxygen poisoning, etc. But the last portion of the warmup, as physiology is being restored, will still have to be done fast. Nuke my corpsicle, or if you can't figure out how to do that safely, use an ultrasonic technique for acoustic heating, but somehow warm me up from the inside so I don't have to endure the frigid agony of warming gradually in a tub. Johnny Thunderbird From VM Tue Dec 18 16:57:24 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3411" "Tuesday" "18" "December" "2001" "18:54:12" "-0600" "bugzapper" "bugzappr@bellsouth.net" nil "76" "starship-design: Re: Vapor Trail Fuel" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3411 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBJ0pB014889 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:51:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from imf24bis.bellsouth.net (mail024.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.58.64]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBJ0pA714881 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:51:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from nless ([66.157.13.196]) by imf24bis.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.00 201-253-122-122-20010827) with SMTP id <20011219010122.EVTH22073.imf24bis.bellsouth.net@nless> for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:01:22 -0500 Message-ID: <00f701c18827$ae4760a0$c40d9d42@nless> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "bugzapper" From: "bugzapper" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship Design List" Subject: starship-design: Re: Vapor Trail Fuel Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:54:12 -0600 Pollutants > mixing with the surrounding air by diffusion. Now this is a recipe for air > pollution, definitely, for the vehicle can by no means scoop up all the fuel Lately I have been using a narrowed definition for air pollution, which includes any carbon whatever the oxidation state. (AFAIK all carbon compounds are IR absorbant e.q. greenhouse gases.) Loosening my restricted definition to a more common definition, if the fuel is burned to CO2 and water we wouldn't normally count it as pollution. We can see that much of the fuel which does not go through the scoop is burned anyway, on passage of flames from the vehicle's jet. (Or after the launch, sweeping the area with an IR laser may help clean up by igniting unburned wisps of fuel.) So by most folk's criteria, there might be little noticeable pollution in such a launch. But space launches run hot, and always produce NOx. The hotter the flame, the more nitrogen and oxygen combine. We got to burn hot anyway, because we got someplace to go, and a short time to get there. But I have been thinking of a way to reduce the acidity of hot flames, by including an admixture of hydrogen where the nitrogen and oxygen recombine. The resulting ammonia gas should chemically combine with the oxides of nitrogen on cooling, forming ammonium nitrate, a perfectly eco-friendly solid fertilizer. > small controlled release from a couple thousand feet altitude, most of which > will be burned off in a matter of seconds. ----- > ... The vehicle may be > lifted up into the fuel stream either under its own power, or by various > launch assistance techniques. See how noncommital? See how hard I tried not to say, "Shoot the launch vehicle out of a gun"? > This segment of level flight might seem almost a detour, for a vehicle > headed way up yonder, but it should boost the vehicle to Mach 4 practically > for free, in terms of onboard expendables. I didn't mention the dirtside application I had in mind, that of accelerating airships. No Mach 4 for them, but a good healthy boost to leeward. Just why has nobody ever put a jet engine on an airship? With a good start like this, an airship wouldn't need a turbojet engine with all its associated weight, for a lightweight ceramic ramjet would suffice. > ... Lighter means faster and way cheaper, more access. Actually I > was thinking in kind of survivalist terms, a last-ditch way to haul lots of > people off a planet in hazard, when I came up with a gasoline streamer > method of flight vehicle acceleration. Or to haul lots of people out on airships if their particular region was emperiled. > ... But people should consider the > concept of externally-fueled air breathing boosters, because they seem to me > about the best way to go if we ever do get the method right. There's a way > to shoot fuel up just right so a ship can use it, a ship with just scoop, > engine and payload. Bet there is. I got two ways here, using windswept fuel streamers or a one-shot hydrogen gun. Got any more? "Just scoop, engine and payload" is exaggeration, stating an engineering extreme, that those are the most massive ship components. I for one won't go anywhere on a ship that doesn't keep fuel aboard at all times, even the space shuttle, though I worked with that program for nearly nine years. Sometimes things change, and it's sad when things change and you're out of fuel. Johnny Thunderbird From VM Wed Dec 19 09:51:33 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2536" "Tuesday" "18" "December" "2001" "20:39:31" "-0600" "bugzapper" "bugzappr@bellsouth.net" nil "52" "Re: starship-design: Vapor Trail Fuel" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2536 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBJ2aTk13373 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:36:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from imf16bis.bellsouth.net (mail116.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.58.56]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBJ2aR713368 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:36:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from nless ([66.157.13.196]) by imf16bis.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.00 201-253-122-122-20010827) with SMTP id <20011219023733.NYHS10649.imf16bis.bellsouth.net@nless> for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:37:33 -0500 Message-ID: <010c01c18836$6374e020$c40d9d42@nless> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "bugzapper" From: "bugzapper" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship Design List" Subject: Re: starship-design: Vapor Trail Fuel Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:39:31 -0600 > > vehicle out of a gun"? > No just management! > I still like rail launched! Me too. > Why a ramjet -- airships are slow -- ramjets are fast. Ah, here we go. Airships have only one drag component, which is proportional to frontal area. But airplanes have a disguised drag component, for aerodynamic lift can be viewed as redirected drag. It requires energy from the engine be used to produce airspeed, and hence lift. This is proportional to wing area, or more exactly to total lifting area, in the case of lifting body shapes. Aerostatic lift does not have this slowdown. Why are airships slow? Because they're big in front. This is strictly a scaling factor. A much bigger airship, volumetrically and in terms of mass, will have a proportionally smaller effect from this drag. But a much bigger airplane will require a larger wing area; the demand on engine power from aerodynamic lift will not decrease. So there must be a crossover point, in terms of mass, which will make the airship faster than the airplane of equal weight, for the same engine power. This is strictly aerodynamics. When you go from big to bigger, this engineering limitation shows itself. In fact, you do not have to go to extreme size to see the advantage of airships over airplanes. I consider the slowness of airships to be entirely a psychological factor. The fact is, all airships are underpowered relative to airplanes. This psychological factor has engineering roots, because airships must be large but lightweight structures, so they have always been considered too fragile for high powered engines. We have developed certain engineering advances, notably geodesic structures and superstrength materials, which enable us to build large lightweight structures of high strength. That makes the innate fragility of airships an obsolete conception, since now we can build airships strong enough to take powerful engines like airplanes use. Wait till I build them, I'll show you. There is one theoretical transportation system which can outperform the airship in terms of energy efficiency: the evacuated maglev train tunnel. Until that be built, the airship will remain the most energy efficient transportation system ever devised by man. The only reason it isn't fast, is because we haven't made it fast. > Busy designing a 12/24 bit CPU. I used to do stuff like that. Gave it up when the microprocessors got faster than anything I could build. > Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html Johnny T. From VM Wed Dec 19 09:51:33 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1251" "Tuesday" "18" "December" "2001" "21:45:14" "-0600" "bugzapper" "bugzappr@bellsouth.net" nil "27" "Re: starship-design: Vapor Trail Fuel" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1251 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBJ3gBJ28958 for starship-design-outgoing; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 19:42:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from imf12bis.bellsouth.net (mail012.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.58.32]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBJ3gA728952 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 19:42:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from nless ([66.157.13.196]) by imf12bis.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.00 201-253-122-122-20010827) with SMTP id <20011219034316.ORGA14037.imf12bis.bellsouth.net@nless> for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:43:16 -0500 Message-ID: <011f01c1883f$91570140$c40d9d42@nless> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "bugzapper" From: "bugzapper" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "Starship Design List" Subject: Re: starship-design: Vapor Trail Fuel Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:45:14 -0600 Ben, "Reply All"; you're sending to me, and not to the list. From: "Ben Franchuk" > > certain engineering advances, notably geodesic structures and superstrength > > materials, which enable us to build large lightweight structures of high > > strength. That makes the innate fragility of airships an obsolete > > conception, since now we can build airships strong enough to take powerful > > engines like airplanes use. Wait till I build them, I'll show you. > > Hmm a Buckminster Fuller fan too I bet! His floating cities come to > mind! > Something like a Mile diameter buckyball with 1/2 atomspheric pressure. That's right! One engineering calculation I'd like to make, is how strong a geodesic/tensegrity structure you'd have to make, in order to have an airship which uses plain old vacuum as its "lifting gas". Imagine a flying lightbulb, which could make the transition from air to space and back routinely. It might have a neutral buoyancy point miles up, so to get down to the surface its crew would have to compress or even liquify air into tanks, to serve as ballast. Build it in orbit, wrapped around a shipful of high-grade vacuum, then just never allow air into the main lifting chamber. Johnny Thunderbird From VM Wed Dec 19 09:51:33 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1602" "Wednesday" "19" "December" "2001" "08:47:53" "-0800" "Curtis Manges" "clmanges@yahoo.com" nil "44" "Fwd: Re: starship-design: Vapor Trail Fuel" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 1602 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBJGlsv11403 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:47:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13609.mail.yahoo.com (web13609.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.9]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id fBJGlr711398 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:47:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20011219164753.85127.qmail@web13609.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.148.94.218] by web13609.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:47:53 PST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Curtis Manges From: Curtis Manges Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design Subject: Fwd: Re: starship-design: Vapor Trail Fuel Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:47:53 -0800 (PST) > There is one theoretical transportation system which can outperform > the > airship in terms of energy efficiency: the evacuated maglev train > tunnel. You've got it -- see below . . . > Until that be built, the airship will remain the most energy > efficient > transportation system ever devised by man. I disagree. In some past research on bicycles, of all things, I encountered some information on air resistance and rolling resistance (the combination of which are the limiting factors of bicycle speed). The upshot of which was that a rail system has the lowest rolling resistance of any system devised, hence it is the most efficient in use. On level ground, a single engine can pull hundreds of cars, each carrying dozens of tons. Get that wind drag out of the way and you've really got a mover. Back to the flight aspect, though, two things about Johnnie's externally-fuelled booster: (1) can your proposed aerostat really carry enough fuel for the job, considering that most of it will be lost? and (2) is said aerostat expendable? That fuel-hungry booster might just want to fly right up its ass . . . I still like the magnetic rail launcher, and I don't see anything in the way of building it, other than money and politics (the same main obstacles to all the other ideas presented here). Keep looking up, Curtis ===== get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From VM Thu Dec 20 09:59:37 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2398" "Thursday" "20" "December" "2001" "00:48:14" "-0600" "bugzapper" "bugzappr@bellsouth.net" nil "51" "starship-design: Vapor Trail Fuel" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 2398 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBK6jQF16273 for starship-design-outgoing; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:45:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from imf16bis.bellsouth.net (mail116.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.58.56]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBK6jO716265 for ; Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:45:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from nless ([66.157.13.196]) by imf16bis.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.00 201-253-122-122-20010827) with SMTP id <20011220064631.GCES10649.imf16bis.bellsouth.net@nless> for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 01:46:31 -0500 Message-ID: <001c01c18922$4ccbc2c0$c40d9d42@nless> References: <20011219164753.85127.qmail@web13609.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "bugzapper" From: "bugzapper" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design" Subject: starship-design: Vapor Trail Fuel Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:48:14 -0600 Hi, Curtis, > > Until that be built, the airship will remain the most energy > > efficient > > transportation system ever devised by man. > ... > The upshot of which was that a rail system has the lowest rolling > resistance of any system devised, hence it is the most efficient in > use... For surface transport. The airship, though, doesn't even have the rolling friction of steel wheels over steel rails. Not being a surface transport, wind drag is the only friction on an airship. > (1) can your proposed aerostat really carry enough fuel for the job, > considering that most of it will be lost? and Perceptive question. Held out another gadget on you here. For the fuel-dispensing tethered aerostat, I had a very particular design in mind. This aerostat twists in the wind due to spiral construction, and around its turning tether is wound a fuel feed tube which pumps fuel up to its release point by its "Archimedes screw" constuction. So the aerostat does not have to support the entire weight of the fuel stream to be released. It does have to twist a heavy tether, though. > (2) is said aerostat expendable? That fuel-hungry booster might just > want to fly right up its ass . . . The fuel-dispensing tether aerostat is at the head of the stream of fuel. Ideally, the booster should be aimed to miss it, to join the stream a bit downwind. The stream of fuel can be stopped when enough has been paid out, and replaced by a slug of water to help prevent local fires, set by the booster launch, from damaging the aerostat or its tether. > I still like the magnetic rail launcher, and I don't see anything in > the way of building it, other than money and politics (the same main > obstacles to all the other ideas presented here). I like maglev rail systems too. But steel things are heavy industry: money moving around, officialdom involved, interminable delays, lawyers too and you can't count on the reality of anything ever happening. Things dirtside these days might be close enough to gridlocked, maybe we better start thinking like Tom Swift, things we can do for ourselves seeking neither backing nor sanction. My emphasis on inflatable and deployable ultralite technology comes from that background. This is the same planet that lost the technology to go to the moon thirty years ago. We didn't lose the knowledge, but apparently we're losing strength. Johnny Thunderbird From VM Thu Dec 20 09:59:37 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["857" "Thursday" "20" "December" "2001" "06:15:50" "-0800" "Curtis Manges" "clmanges@yahoo.com" nil "29" "Fwd: starship-design: Vapor Trail Fuel" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 857 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBKEFqu08020 for starship-design-outgoing; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 06:15:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from web13605.mail.yahoo.com (web13605.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.116]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id fBKEFo708012 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 06:15:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20011220141550.95395.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.148.91.183] by web13605.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 20 Dec 2001 06:15:50 PST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Curtis Manges From: Curtis Manges Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: starship-design Subject: Fwd: starship-design: Vapor Trail Fuel Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 06:15:50 -0800 (PST) > maybe we better > start > thinking like Tom Swift, things we can do for ourselves seeking > neither > backing nor sanction. > > Johnny Thunderbird > > This may be the best statement I've seen on this post. Granted that nothing is free and damn little is cheap, the best place to start is still within our own best inventiveness. I once brought a small project almost to completion with almost no cash at all, the whole time asking at each step, "what can I do next without money?" Even though the project failed, I still consider that one of my finest hours. Keep looking up, Curtis ===== get the facts! visit www.worldnews.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From VM Wed Dec 26 09:54:55 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3656" "Saturday" "22" "December" "2001" "04:52:41" "-0600" "bugzapper" "bugzappr@bellsouth.net" nil "66" "Re: starship-design: Vapor Trail Fuel" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3656 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBMAnIH03898 for starship-design-outgoing; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 02:49:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from imf20bis.bellsouth.net (mail120.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.58.80]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBMAnH703893 for ; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 02:49:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from nless ([66.157.11.26]) by imf20bis.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.00 201-253-122-122-20010827) with SMTP id <20011222105421.XCPL1592.imf20bis.bellsouth.net@nless> for ; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 05:54:21 -0500 Message-ID: <000801c18ad6$c7afb4a0$1a0b9d42@nless> References: <20011220141550.95395.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "bugzapper" From: "bugzapper" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design" Subject: Re: starship-design: Vapor Trail Fuel Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 04:52:41 -0600 Engine Details Once hypersonic velocity is achieved, an air breathing vehicle can dispense with scoop and combustion chamber. In their place, all you need is a solid body which will hold its shape and orientation at such speeds. Scoops lose their functionality at hypersonic speeds, and don't work any more. The combustion chamber becomes superfluous, for the combustion is adequately confined by the shock front, which is somewhat harder than a brick wall. If the vehicle is externally fueled, flying up a path which has been preloaded with fuel, there is no particular requirement put on the vehicle at all, except that it hold together and stay cool. A rock at hypersonic speed would do fine: its shock wave confines and ignites the fuel-air mix it encounters, and it will accelerate. High-tech gadgetry does it better, though. Agile Switching For the sake of efficiency, an adaptable engine which can rapidly respond to its ambient environment by feeding either fuel or oxidizer on demand would be ideal. An externally-fueled vehicle will fly through alternating patches of air and fuel vapor, so to keep the maximum burn rate it should always be able to feed the other. Improving the Jet Engine To build a faster turbojet, make it centerless. Remove the turbine shaft and all its fans, and all the other paraphanelia until you have only the tube of the jet housing. Hang the turbine vanes off a spinning section of the wall of this tube, so they point inwards and back. Leave the center airflow unimpeded. Fix lightweight magnets behind the spinning section of wall holding your vanes, and face them with electrical coils, making it a rotating electrical machine. Make an identical machine of a wall section in the hot back end of the tube. Connect their wires together. The hot vane in back is your turbofan, and becomes your generator. The cold vane in front is your compressor, driven by being the rotor of an electric motor. Then iterate, repeat the construction of this pair a couple more times, because a one-stage compressor has low efficiency. Centerless means you could poke a stick through it from front to back, in the exact center, without hitting anything. This engine should handle higher airspeeds than any contemporary design. Its vanes are self-centering, for they run on magnetic bearings. It weighs only a fraction of a conventional turbojet the same size. It should preferably be built of nonmetallic material, again decreasing the weight while allowing hotter combustion. Stages The principle of iteration is well adapted to the use of hydrogen shock tubes, by using a string of them at sucessively higher altitudes. It may seem hopelessly complex, to try to coordinate precise orientation and timing of several such impulse devices in free air. However, we do have these machines which can help us with the timing of mechanical tasks, and with aiming as well. Since the vehicle may have an agile redox engine, as mentioned above, allowance might be made for partial failure, such as one shock tube out of six failing to fire correctly, to have the vehicle sucessfully reach orbit anyway. For the fuel distribution twirling aerostat which must turn a tether weighted down with fuel, intermediate stages of aerostatic lift may be used. Lifting bubbles are arranged on the tether, and they can turn too. An extension of this principle to pumping water to a downwind location, by the way, allows the aerial transport of water for quite long distances. This may be handy for irrigation or fighting forest fires. I said "by the way", and you don't have to stay exactly on topic when you say "by the way". Johnny Thunderbird From VM Wed Dec 26 09:54:55 2001 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3515" "Monday" "24" "December" "2001" "20:29:10" "-0600" "bugzapper" "bugzappr@bellsouth.net" nil "61" "Re: starship-design: Vapor Trail Fuel" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] nil) Content-Length: 3515 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fBP2QJJ29664 for starship-design-outgoing; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:26:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from imf01bis.bellsouth.net (mail201.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.58.141]) by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBP2QIj29659 for ; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:26:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from nless ([66.157.11.26]) by imf01bis.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.00 201-253-122-122-20010827) with SMTP id <20011225022725.MQOV21672.imf01bis.bellsouth.net@nless> for ; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 21:27:25 -0500 Message-ID: <000501c18ceb$f028e660$1a0b9d42@nless> References: <20011220141550.95395.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> <000801c18ad6$c7afb4a0$1a0b9d42@nless> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "bugzapper" From: "bugzapper" Sender: owner-starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu To: "starship-design" Subject: Re: starship-design: Vapor Trail Fuel Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 20:29:10 -0600 Centerless Turbojet Engine Details In the case where there are two fans going each way, deosil and widdershins, in front, for a total of four fans in the forward compression stage, and four fans taking the thermal energy out of the jet in the rear turbine stage, the forward escape of air is prevented by the two acoustic barriers formed by the vorticity reversals between succeeding fans. Forward engine sensors detect whether the incoming gas is oxidizing or reducing, and the complementary gas is injected into the main gas channel. In place of a flameholder, oxyacetylene torch flames are shot into the main gas channel, from the periphery, to ignite it. The vanes may have a variable pitch, or a variable rearward attitude, if this can be arranged without excessive increase in the mass of the rotating rim. The pitch should be decreased, and the rearward attitude increased, for an increase in airspeed. As the vanes are deflected farther to the rear, this opens up the central air channel like an iris, making a larger central area unimpeded. The engine in this way should operate into the high range of supersonic speeds, possibly to Mach 4. To operate as a ramjet, the fans have to stop spinning and be locked back. As the airspeed gets faster, you put less in its way. Fuel Laying: A Third Way A series of flying vessels laying out fuel, may be deployed into the path projected as the orbit launch trajectory of a spacegoing vehicle. The first requirement of these flying vessels is that they not ignite the fuel train they are laying. To this end, their exhaust jets may be cooled, though this would slow them down. Otherwise, their hot jets must be physically separated from the fuel train, either by placing their single engine far forward in the airframe so the exhaust is cooled passing the bulk of the fuel tank, or by using multiple engines widely spaced so the jet exhaust will not touch the fuel train. A combination of these factors may be used. These fuel laying vessels should be reusable, but this may be difficult to achieve for those which will go to extreme altitudes, which need to be extremely lightweight. This seems a more controllable approach (than the last two) to providing fuel for an externally-fueled orbit launch vehicle. The fuel laying vessels lay their fuel, then veer downward out of the path, then the launch is made. Even an "externally-fueled air-breathing" launch vehicle is expected to complete the run to orbital velocity on internal fuel and internal oxidizer, as a rocket. The more fuel which has been laid for it, the lighter this launch vehicle will be, in direct proportionality to its cost. Is there a scaling down to model size on this? Like, take a model rocket, and smother its jet with enough fuel vapor to cool it down, so the flame front will never get out to the fuel-air interface? There may be a solution like that, but I'm afraid a couple incidents might happen in the experimental work. In trials before the safe conditions become known, the entire fuel column might burn off. That would cancel the launch of the air breather. Safer to separate the engines from the fuel, as above. For instance, haul a fuel tank between three model rockets. When the fuel's dispensed, deploy a chute to yank the rocket rig out of the path of the fast ramjet that's climbing up the fuel trail. Get it right, and they might even allow this at a rocket meet, so you could set some new records. Johnny Thunderbird http://members.100free.com/users/jthunderbird/