From popserver Wed Nov 1 17:00:42 GMT 1995 X-VM-Summary-Format: "%n %*%a %-17.17F %-3.3m %2d %4l/%-5c %I\"%s\"\n" X-VM-Labels: nil X-VM-VHeader: ("Resent-" "From:" "Sender:" "To:" "Apparently-To:" "Cc:" "Subject:" "Date:") nil X-VM-Bookmark: 146 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1198" "Wed" "1" "November" "1995" "15:50:49" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "28" "Mini SD-newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA17141; Wed, 1 Nov 95 06:50:42 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA01408 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 1 Nov 1995 15:50:19 +0100 Message-Id: <199511011450.AA01408@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 815245202.002 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, hedmarc@cellpro.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Mini SD-newsletter Date: Wed, 01 Nov 1995 15:50:49 +0100 Subject: Pre-loading the decell track >From : Timothy To : Kelly and Others >>> The idea of pre-launcing fuel (brought up by Timothy >>> VanderLinden et. al.) is great for getting up to speed, but >>> I want to see how they intend to pre-load the decell track. >> >> Hey that was my idea! I agree with the problem with a decel track thou. If >> we could do that the ship systems would be a snap. > >I know it was your idea, but they brought it up most recently and also >said they had the math to back it up. "Sure would like to see it", thats what I told Nick. Nick and I discussed a lot about that, but REAL maths were not involved as far as I knew. This does not mean that we didn't agree. Pre-loading the decelleration track would not be troublesome if one could aim the "cannon"/"lineac" precise enough. But about this aiming problem we did not agree. If it is not clear to anyone how to pre-load the decell track, assuming there is no aiming problem, I wouldn't mind to explain, just ask me some specific questions. Greetings Timothy P.S. My name is Timothy van der Linden, I'm a real Dutchman so the contraction to "VanderLinden" does not apply. From popserver Thu Nov 2 00:41:33 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1343" "Wed" "1" "November" "1995" "19:35:37" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "30" "Re: Mini SD-newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA23961; Wed, 1 Nov 95 16:35:18 PST Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA09236; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 19:35:37 -0500 Message-Id: <951101193537_10158014@mail06.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 815272853.000 From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, hedmarc@cellpro.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Mini SD-newsletter Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 19:35:37 -0500 >>> The idea of pre-launcing fuel (brought up by Timothy >>> VanderLinden et. al.) is great for getting up to speed, but >>> I want to see how they intend to pre-load the decell track. >> >> Hey that was my idea! I agree with the problem with a decel track thou. If >> we could do that the ship systems would be a snap. > >I know it was your idea, but they brought it up most recently and also >said they had the math to back it up. >> "Sure would like to see it", thats what I told Nick. Nick and >> I discussed a lot about that, but REAL maths were not >> involved as far as I knew. This does not mean that we >> didn't agree. Pre-loading the decelleration track would >> not be troublesome if one could aim the "cannon"/" >> lineac" precise enough. But about this aiming problem >> we did not agree. If it is not clear to anyone how to >> pre-load the decell track, assuming there is no aiming >> problem, I wouldn't mind to explain, just ask me some >> specific questions. Hi Tim, Ok, how do you get the decel fuel in the Target star systems decel track, and at an acceptable speed? To get their befor the ship it would have to be going at relativistic speeds. But if its going that fast, the ship couldn't catch its decel fuel. i.e. the ship would slow down, but the fuel wouldn't. Kelly From popserver Fri Nov 3 17:03:03 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1836" "Fri" "3" "November" "1995" "17:14:59" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "35" "Mini SD-newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA18472; Fri, 3 Nov 95 08:15:38 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA20356 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 3 Nov 1995 17:14:44 +0100 Message-Id: <199511031614.AA20356@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 815418109.015 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, hedmarc@cellpro.cellpro.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, bpvanstr@yoho.uwaterloo.ca, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Subject: Mini SD-newsletter Date: Fri, 03 Nov 1995 17:14:59 +0100 Subject: Pre-loading the decell track Author : Timothy ReplyTo: Kelly >Ok, how do you get the decel fuel in the Target star systems decel track, and >at an acceptable speed? To get their befor the ship it would have to be >going at relativistic speeds. But if its going that fast, the ship couldn't >catch its decel fuel. i.e. the ship would slow down, but the fuel wouldn't. Another way to get it at the target before the Asimov is to send it there before the Asimov is started. What I mean is that the slowest fuel-packets will be send from Earth many years before the Asimov starts moving to TC. These early packets have low speeds and thus take a long time to get to TC. Faster packets which will be catched up by the Asimov first will be send last but still before the Asimov has started. So now there is a long track of packets all at decreasing speeds. All these packets are moving towards TC and so is the Asimov, but the Asimov moves a little bit faster than the fastest moving packet and "near" TC it catches up with that packet. After catching that packet the Asimov slows down a bit, but not too much, so that it can catch up with the next packet which moved slower than the packet just catched. This process repeates many times, untill the Asimov has an reasonable slow velocity. Because all packets are launched before the Asimov starts we call it a PRE-load track. Now the trick is to have all packets at the right place at the right time and at the right speed. This surely would be possible if we could aim our lineac at Sol precise enough. Of course there is a minimum limit speed for the slowest and first package: The slower it moves the earlier it has to be send to TC. If we would need real slow packets we would need sending them now already. OK, I hope this is clear, if not, ask me once more. Timothy From popserver Fri Nov 3 17:03:07 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1940" "Fri" "3" "November" "1995" "08:36:45" "-0800" "Ric Hedman" "HEDMARC@cellpro.cellpro.com" nil "45" "Re: Mini SD-newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from cellpro.com (mail.cellpro.com) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA19924; Fri, 3 Nov 95 08:37:56 PST Received: by cryovial.cellpro.com id <44801>; Fri, 3 Nov 1995 08:38:04 -0800 X-Nvlenv-01Date-Posted: 3-Nov-1995 8:36:54 -0800; at Bothell.CellPro In-Reply-To: <11009A30015C2979@-SMF-> References: <11009A30025C2979@-SMF-> Message-Id: <95Nov3.083804pst.44801@cryovial.cellpro.com> X-UIDL: 815418109.018 From: HEDMARC@cellpro.cellpro.com (Hedman, Ric) To: T.L.G.vanderLinden%student.utwente.nl@cellpro.cellpro.com, bpvanstr%yoho.uwaterloo.ca@cellpro.cellpro.com, zkulpa%zmit1.ippt.gov.pl@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim%bogie2.bio.purdue.edu@cellpro.cellpro.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, stevev%efn.org@cellpro.cellpro.com, hous0042%maroon.tc.umn.edu@cellpro.cellpro.com, KellySt%aol.com@cellpro.cellpro.com Subject: Re: Mini SD-newsletter Date: Fri, 3 Nov 1995 08:36:45 -0800 >Another way to get it at the target before the Asimov is to send it there >before the Asimov is started. What I mean is that the slowest fuel-packets >will be send from Earth many years before the Asimov starts moving to TC. >These early packets have low speeds and thus take a long time to get to TC. >Faster packets which will be catched up by the Asimov first will be send >last but still before the Asimov has started. So now there is a long track >of packets all at decreasing speeds. All these packets are moving towards TC >and so is the Asimov, but the Asimov moves a little bit faster than the >fastest moving packet and "near" TC it catches up with that packet. After >catching that packet the Asimov slows down a bit, but not too much, so that >it can catch up with the next packet which moved slower than the packet just >catched. This process repeates many times, untill the Asimov has an >reasonable slow velocity. >Because all packets are launched before the Asimov starts we call it a >PRE-load track. Now the trick is to have all packets at the right place at >the right time and at the right speed. This surely would be possible if we >could aim our lineac at Sol precise enough. Of course there is a minimum >limit speed for the slowest and first package: The slower it moves the >earlier it has to be send to TC. If we would need real slow packets we would >need sending them now already. OK, so we have this traffic jamb of fuel cells in a long string heading to TC. Are the faster ones going to overtake the slower ones? How are these faster fuel cells going to avoid colliding with the slower ones. If you aim all these off by just little bits to avoid running up the tailpipe of the slower ones by the time you get close to TC they are fanned out all over the place. By the way I will up and running up at home tomorrow so you can send these to: rddesign@wolfenet.com from now on. Thanks Ric From popserver Sat Nov 4 06:32:07 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4854" "Sat" "4" "November" "1995" "00:29:38" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "95" "Re: Mini SD-newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA14448; Fri, 3 Nov 95 22:30:32 PST Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Sat, 4 Nov 95 00:29:39 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199511031614.AA20356@student.utwente.nl> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 815466718.000 From: Kevin C Houston To: Timothy van der Linden Cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, hedmarc@cellpro.cellpro.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, bpvanstr@yoho.uwaterloo.ca, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Subject: Re: Mini SD-newsletter Date: Sat, 4 Nov 1995 00:29:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: pre-loading the decell track Author: Kevin Houston Replying to Timothy > Subject: Pre-loading the decell track > Author : Timothy > ReplyTo: Kelly > > >Ok, how do you get the decel fuel in the Target star systems decel track, and > >at an acceptable speed? To get their befor the ship it would have to be > >going at relativistic speeds. But if its going that fast, the ship couldn't > >catch its decel fuel. i.e. the ship would slow down, but the fuel wouldn't. > > Another way to get it at the target before the Asimov is to send it there > before the Asimov is started. What I mean is that the slowest fuel-packets > will be send from Earth many years before the Asimov starts moving to TC. > These early packets have low speeds and thus take a long time to get to TC. > Faster packets which will be catched up by the Asimov first will be send > last but still before the Asimov has started. So now there is a long track > of packets all at decreasing speeds. All these packets are moving towards TC > and so is the Asimov, but the Asimov moves a little bit faster than the > fastest moving packet and "near" TC it catches up with that packet. After > catching that packet the Asimov slows down a bit, but not too much, so that > it can catch up with the next packet which moved slower than the packet just > catched. This process repeates many times, untill the Asimov has an > reasonable slow velocity. > Yes, but at some point in the deceleration we will have to be moving at some arbitraily slow speed, let's say for the sake of argument that we want to see how the "Asimov" gets fuel while moving at .01 C (a speed of 3 million meters a second) in order to get fuel to T.C. with a speed of 3E+06, it will have to be launched 1200 years before the ship! Even if you cut off the fuel supply at a speed of .1 C (and how can you slow down from this insane speed without fuel?) you'd need to launch fuel 120 years ahead of ship launch. The U.S. (or others by the way) political scene would never stay focused for that length of time. It's preety dicey as to whether or not they'd leave the maser beam alone for two years (earth time) never mind 120! I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that there is _no_ way you could pre-load the decell track of a target like Tau Ceti. Maybe, Just Maybe, You could do it for Alpha Centauri, but not Tau ceti. and since the target is Tau Ceti, we need a better way. Either beam the power, or figure out how to use the Interstellar Medium (ISM) as a brake. I say that beaming the power is the quickest easiest solution. To: all From: Kevin H. Re: Results of Vote (un official) Having looked through the replies (before the newsletter melted), it seemed that the majority opinion was for a continued presence at T.C. While this may seem unrealistic to some (shush Kelly ;) ) I think it is a reasonable goal. I don't think our job is to do an economic justification for the colony (or base) I think we only need to show that it is possible. If someone in the future should decide to use our design, I'm sure there will be many changes, and this is one of the first no doubt. So here is the proposal. 1) Purpose of the mission is to set up a permanent base at T.C. in order to study the system in-depth and possibly set up a colony if conditions warrant. Otherwise, the base is slated to be abandoned after all the research is done. Expected service life of base should be 50 Solar years, any permanant colony must be self-sufficient. 2) Some means of sustainable (closed-cycle) life support must be found. spare parts and supplies can be ferried (see #3 below) to T.C., but the daily bread must be home-grown. 3) Individual crew members must have a reasonable chance to get rotated back to earth and/or quit the mission at various intervals. i.e. , there must be regular "shuttle bus" service, and this must be cost effective 4) "Shuttle busses" can assume loaded accel and decel tracks, or conversly they can assume functioning maser transmitters in both systems. 5) The "Asimov" need not be returned to Earth, it can stay at T.C. and become the core of the base, it can be junked, or it can be fitted for another trip to some other star in the local neighborhood. if you intend to convert the "Asimov" to a base, please be specific in dual-use details. if you intend to refit it for another journey, how will you build the spacedock? what target would you select, and who will crew it? Maybe you have some other use for the "Asimov" (we could put a big sign on it that says "Colony ship for sale - Cheap!" if you don't get the joke, that just means you haven't played enough Marathon.) I think the next vote shold be on engine type, but that should probably wait until we can get the Newsletter back up and running. Kevin H. From popserver Sat Nov 4 17:26:46 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["831" "Sat" "4" "November" "1995" "16:00:58" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "21" "Re: Mini SD-newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA27052; Sat, 4 Nov 95 07:01:02 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA12655 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 4 Nov 1995 16:00:54 +0100 Message-Id: <199511041500.AA12655@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 815505969.014 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, bpvanstr@yoho.uwaterloo.ca Subject: Re: Mini SD-newsletter Date: Sat, 04 Nov 1995 16:00:58 +0100 Subject: Preloading the decel-track Author : Timothy ReplyTo: Ric >OK, so we have this traffic jamb of fuel cells in a long string heading >to TC. Are the faster ones going to overtake the slower ones? How are >these faster fuel cells going to avoid colliding with the slower ones. If >you aim all these off by just little bits to avoid running up the >tailpipe of the slower ones by the time you get close to TC they are >fanned out all over the place. No, the faster ones are NOT going to overtake the slower ones. But of course all packets get course the get nearer to each other all the time. In fact if they where not captured near TC they would indeed overtake each other. What we have to do is send them in the right intervals so they don't overtake before TC. So fanning out the packets is not necessary. Timothy From popserver Sat Nov 4 17:26:47 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5384" "Sat" "4" "November" "1995" "16:01:03" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "114" "Re: Mini SD-newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA27056; Sat, 4 Nov 95 07:01:10 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA12661 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 4 Nov 1995 16:00:59 +0100 Message-Id: <199511041500.AA12661@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 815505969.015 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, bpvanstr@yoho.uwaterloo.ca Subject: Re: Mini SD-newsletter Date: Sat, 04 Nov 1995 16:01:03 +0100 Subject: Pre-loading the decell track Author : Timothy ReplyTo: Kevin Houston >Yes, but at some point in the deceleration we will have to be moving at >some arbitraily slow speed, let's say for the sake of argument that we >want to see how the "Asimov" gets fuel while moving at .01 C (a speed of >3 million meters a second) in order to get fuel to T.C. with a speed of >3E+06, it will have to be launched 1200 years before the ship! I was aware of that problem and wrote it but you didn't quote that part, so I write it once more: < Of course there is a minimum limit speed for the slowest and first package: < The slower it moves the earlier it has to be send to TC. If we would need real < slow packets we would need sending them now already. I hadn't done any calculations, but am glad you did. Any speed less than top-speed would be a gain. 0.3c would be more acceptable with respect to 0.8c, but of course not enough. >Even if >you cut off the fuel supply at a speed of .1 C (and how can you slow down >from this insane speed without fuel?) OK you wonder how to decelerate even further? Easy, don't burn all the fuel from the packets as soon as you get a hold of them. OK, the ship gets a bit heavier and would be a bit more difficult to decelerate, but every system has some advantages. That extra bit of weight/fuel should be just enough to decelerate from 0.1c to 0.0c. >you'd need to launch fuel 120 years >ahead of ship launch. The U.S. (or others by the way) political scene >would never stay focused for that length of time. It's preety dicey as >to whether or not they'd leave the maser beam alone for two years (earth >time) never mind 120! Yes, 120 years is too much, but that would also mean that the energy costs would be spread over more years than using direct beaming. >I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that there is _no_ way you >could pre-load the decell track of a target like Tau Ceti. Maybe, Just >Maybe, You could do it for Alpha Centauri, but not Tau ceti. and since >the target is Tau Ceti, we need a better way. Either beam the power, or >figure out how to use the Interstellar Medium (ISM) as a brake. I say >that beaming the power is the quickest easiest solution. Hey I never said it was such a good idea, I only tried to show that pre-loading would be possible. As I am sure you know, both theories you mentioned have many hooks and eyes too. We still haven't done good calculations of what the energy costs would be for these theories. Timothy ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Results of Vote (un official) ReplyTo: Kevin H. Author : Timothy >Having looked through the replies (before the newsletter melted), it >seemed that the majority opinion was for a continued presence at T.C. >While this may seem unrealistic to some (shush Kelly ;) ) I think it is >a reasonable goal. I don't think our job is to do an economic >justification for the colony (or base) I think we only need to show that >it is possible. If someone in the future should decide to use our >design, I'm sure there will be many changes, and this is one of the first >no doubt. We "know" that it is possible, but don't ask at what cost. Economic justification depends on many things two of them are cost and profit. Going to TC at low cost (ie. slow speeds) means little profit (the "trip" takes a long time so the financiers would not be alive anymore). And even higher costs are not sure to give real profits. What I meant to say is that we not should loose all economic perspective. And if we can find a reason to go there why not use it. >So here is the proposal. >3) Individual crew members must have a reasonable chance to get rotated >back to earth and/or quit the mission at various intervals. i.e. , there >must be regular "shuttle bus" service, and this must be cost effective How long would people work around TC? At least 10 years would be reasonable. This means that you would be about 30 years away from Earth. Would you like that? I certainly wouldn't. Also this would imply that each person would cost twice as much as staying at TC. (Note that staying there does not mean suicide). >4) "Shuttle busses" can assume loaded accel and decel tracks, or >conversly they can assume functioning maser transmitters in both systems. Is it feasable that such a system can be build on TC in a short (10 year) period? My guess is that the "few" people that went with the Asimov have a lot of other things to do. >I think the next vote shold be on engine type, but that should probably >wait until we can get the Newsletter back up and running. How can we possibly vote on such a matter if we don't even know what amounts of energy and power or involved per design. The only propulsion system 'I' know exact numbers of is just the take-all-fuel-with-you method. I have done relativistic calculations for this method involving all kinds of fuel (chemical to antimatter). These calculations have not yet been send to LIT, since its are rather long derivation. I will make it available if any one likes to see it. Another possibility is that I just show one the final formula's. But even these are not pleasant to look at. My results about fuel:ship ratio seem to agree with those of Steve VanDevender, only he had not numbers about energy and power. Timothy From popserver Mon Nov 6 01:43:51 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1137" "Sun" "5" "November" "1995" "20:40:54" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "26" "Re: Mini SD-newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA10062; Sun, 5 Nov 95 17:41:44 PST Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA06041; Sun, 5 Nov 1995 20:40:54 -0500 Message-Id: <951105204049_13706207@emout05.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 815622186.019 From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, hedmarc@cellpro.cellpro.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, bpvanstr@yoho.uwaterloo.ca Subject: Re: Mini SD-newsletter Date: Sun, 5 Nov 1995 20:40:54 -0500 To : Timothy ReplyTo: Kelly >Ok, how do you get the decel fuel in the Target star systems decel track, and >at an acceptable speed? To get their befor the ship it would have to be >going at relativistic speeds. But if its going that fast, the ship couldn't >catch its decel fuel. i.e. the ship would slow down, but the fuel wouldn't. >> Another way to get it at the target before the Asimov is >> to send it there before the Asimov is started. What I >> mean is that the slowest fuel-packets will be send >> from Earth many years before the Asimov starts moving >> to TC. ---- Of course there is a minimum >> limit speed for the slowest and first package: The slower >> it moves the earlier it has to be send to TC. If we would >> need real slow packets we would need sending them now >> already. Thats the problem. 1) if the ship needs fuel for .2 C or less, for a Tau Ceti flight it would have to be launched about 60 years before the ship gets there. 2) To do all this precise launch timing decades before the flight leaves would be perfect assurence that the fuel and ship will NOT get together at the proper time. From popserver Mon Nov 6 01:48:54 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1107" "Sun" "5" "November" "1995" "20:41:24" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "25" "Re: Mini SD-newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA10116; Sun, 5 Nov 95 17:43:25 PST Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA27127; Sun, 5 Nov 1995 20:41:24 -0500 Message-Id: <951105204120_13706644@emout06.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 815622526.000 From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, bpvanstr@yoho.uwaterloo.ca Subject: Re: Mini SD-newsletter Date: Sun, 5 Nov 1995 20:41:24 -0500 >Even if >you cut off the fuel supply at a speed of .1 C (and how can you slow down >from this insane speed without fuel?) >> OK you wonder how to decelerate even further? Easy, >> don't burn all the fuel from the packets as soon as you get >> a hold of them. OK, the ship gets a bit heavier and would >> be a bit more difficult to decelerate, but every system >> has some advantages. That extra bit of weight/fuel >> should be just enough to decelerate from 0.1c to 0.0c. Thats a very good point! If the fuel stream can get the ship down to a speed that it can decelerate down from with stored fuel, it could be done. SCheduling the flight precisly enough to intercept the fuel is a problem (assuming you can launch the fuel the precisely!) but again that would only be a problem for a first flight if you bring along equip to build fuel launchers in system. However gven the target of Tau Ceti, and the practical time limits of 20 years were talking about fuel at over 1/2 light speed. Oh, I suppose we'ld get some decel force out of the drage we'ld get from picking up the slower fuel. Kelly From popserver Mon Nov 6 01:53:58 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["612" "Sun" "5" "November" "1995" "19:51:14" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "19" "Re: Mini SD-newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA10606; Sun, 5 Nov 95 17:52:20 PST Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Sun, 5 Nov 95 19:51:14 -0600 In-Reply-To: <951105204049_13706207@emout05.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 815622829.001 From: Kevin C Houston To: KellySt@aol.com Cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, hedmarc@cellpro.cellpro.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, bpvanstr@yoho.uwaterloo.ca Subject: Re: Mini SD-newsletter Date: Sun, 5 Nov 1995 19:51:14 -0600 (CST) On Sun, 5 Nov 1995 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > To : Timothy > > > Thats the problem. 1) if the ship needs fuel for .2 C or less, for a Tau > Ceti flight it would have to be launched about 60 years before the ship gets > there. 2) To do all this precise launch timing decades before the flight > leaves would be perfect assurence that the fuel and ship will NOT get > together at the proper time. > Agreed, The timing difficulties alone would make this a problematic approach. Granted it may be physically possible, but that does not mean that it's practical. I say "nice try guys", but no cigar. Kevin From popserver Mon Nov 6 16:59:58 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6783" "Mon" "6" "November" "1995" "13:01:56" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "146" "Engineering Oldies letter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA02591; Mon, 6 Nov 95 04:02:26 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA01975 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 6 Nov 1995 13:01:34 +0100 Message-Id: <199511061201.AA01975@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 815677179.004 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, bpvanstr@yoho.uwaterloo.ca Subject: Engineering Oldies letter Date: Mon, 06 Nov 1995 13:01:56 +0100 Just after the last official newsletter was send, I mailed these message to LIT. Because of this some messages seem to be very old, but their content still applies, so I send them here: To : All >From : Timothy Subject : Overheating I have serious doubts if we can cool the engine of the Asimov or the beaming-apparatus in solar orbit. If only a small fraction of the needed power is transferred to heat, things will melt or be blown away very fast. Since the power needed will be very big (1E18 Watt) only small portions (1E12=0.001%) that are not efficiently used can give real trouble. I don't think efficiecies of more than 99 percent are feasable. So, does any of you have a solution to this overheating problem? My guess is that cooling water would not work. And if the engine is on the Asimov the trouble would even be bigger, since space isn't much of a cooling fluid. To : Kevin >From : Timothy Re : Flat floors, curved walls >Yes they do flex, or else I missed something major. consider the hab >train while the ship is under acceleration let us designate the floor/ceiling >familiar trip, you notice that it is the distance between cabs at the top >of the cars that is shorter, and the distance near the floor that is longer. So far OK. >unless you want people to suit up every time they pass between cars, you >are going to have to have a flexible conduit for them to walk through. Nope, the junctions would indeed be curved but would be stationary. The shorter part would always be at the inside of the ring. Now only the tubes would need to turn. The connection between the junction and the tube would just be some turnable connection like a wheel that can rotate around an axis. To : Kevin Houston >From : Timothy van der Linden Re : MARS Design. >I agree that the momentum is large, but there will be many transmitters, >so each individual one may not be affected so much. However, if this >turns out not to be the case, the effect can be totally negated by a >but no trqansmitter should have to do this very often. Of course you >would have to double the amount of transmitters, because half of them >would be occulted by the Sun at any one time. Let us take 100 "cubes" weighing approx. 10 ton each: Total weigh 1E6 kg. Since the total weight of the cubes is much less than the MARS-design (M=2.5E9) their end-velocity would be greater than that of the Asimov. So their total weight should be at least 10 to 100 times bigger than that of the MARS-design if we don't want the cubes to leave our solar system. According to my calculations each one of the 100 "cubes" would get an acceleration of about 8000 m/s^2 if they wanted to power the Asimov. Since this is quite much the "cube" would be blown out of orbit before it could make one orbit around the Sun, so you add and subtract method would not work. Another problem will be that the collectors on the cubes will be blown away by the Sun's photons. You may think that photons don't have that much momentum. But I assure you that the amount of photons that have to be collected is big enough to do that. In fact you can compare a cube-collectors with a large mirror reflecting Sun's photons to the Asimov. This means that the collectors get twice the momentum of the the Asimov. My idea would be to build mirrors or solar panels with a maser on the moon or Mars. The only disadvantage is that the mirrors or panels should be larger but the advantage is that they would not need to be launched. To get some feel about the size we are talking about: The mean power we need would be at least 4E17 Joule/second. That would mean a collector with the size of 4.4E13 square metres in the same orbit as Mercury or one that is 20 times bigger on Mars. The problem is that Mars is not big enough! Having done thes calculations make me realize that the collectors that are attached to the cubes may weigh much much more than 6 ton and that making the collectors would be more difficult than making the Asimov. I hope I've not confused you by the numbers, but I really think they are right. (The value of 4E17 is an approximation. I first calculated the total kinetic energy of the Asimov with speed 0.74c and then devided that by the time it took to accelerate the Asimov to that speed.) As far as I can see it, direct solar power would not be feasable. To : Kevin >From : Timothy Re : Electrons and shielding. >We can't carry a UV laser with us, because it would never be the right >wavelength (due to doppler shifting) so it would have to be a Sol based >system. but if we are going to use a UV laser (to clear our path) then we >might as well use that to power our spacecraft, radically altering our >design. anyone know how to convert uv photons to electicity with the >nearly 90% efficeincy of a microwave converter? (me niether :( Clearing the way for the Asimov with a Sol based system would mean that all that is in between would be ionized as well. That would mean a lot of extra energy. I'm sure that in 2040 we have variable lasers in the UV-range. We now already have them in the visible range. >The only other way i know to ionize an atom, is to hit it with a positron. >not go where we wanted. I suppose we could emit some particle that would >be nuetral, but would then decay into positrons, but such a particle >would violate charge conservation (any ideas?) Such a particle would be a free anti-neutron it has a decay time of 10.6 minutes and its reaction products are a positron, an anti-electron and a anti-neutrino. But unfortunately anti-neutrons would cost too much energy to make for this purpose. >given all this, I think a simple erosion plate on the front of the ship >might be the best answer. something about 2000 meters in rad, and about >20 meters (just a guess) thick. shaped into a blunt cone (we do want to >travel at c for part of this trip). the incoming H,He,etc would hit >this, gouging pits and becomming imbeded. the overall force of this >material striking us would be the same no matter if we push it out of the >way with magnetic fields or let it impact a physical barrier. I guess that is like what I was saying all along. >Oh man, this gets more expensive (energy wise) by the minute. >Please, Please, somebody flame me and tell me i forgot something that >will let us ionize everything ahead of us and go back to using mag fields >for shields. I can't think of a single thing. we might have to limit >our top speed to some high fraction of c, won't add that much more to the >trip. let's say for arguments sake, that we limit ourselves to .95 C. I really think a variable laser onboard the Asimov could do the trick. From popserver Mon Nov 6 17:00:01 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["884" "Mon" "6" "November" "1995" "13:02:10" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "23" "Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA02590; Mon, 6 Nov 95 04:02:24 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA02048 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 6 Nov 1995 13:02:04 +0100 Message-Id: <199511061202.AA02048@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 815677179.005 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, bpvanstr@yoho.uwaterloo.ca Subject: Engineering Newsletter Date: Mon, 06 Nov 1995 13:02:10 +0100 OK, my theory strands on practical difficulties, so we are back to zero. So I quote Kevin (Newsletter 00:29 11-04-95) >Either beam the power, or >figure out how to use the Interstellar Medium (ISM) as a brake. I say >that beaming the power is the quickest easiest solution. Beaming the power would still mean a timing problem of about 10 years? And another problem for this method would be that you get a large amount of momentum in the wrong direction (ie. in the direction of TC). Using ISM would be great, but it seems that only VERY BIG scoops could do the trick. I still haven't seen a formula about a scoop field. Kevin you seem to have one, is it possible that I could see that formula? Maybe we should find a nearby star in a nebula, that sure would increase the ISM-density. I'm not sure if there are any nearby nebulae. Does someone know more about that? Timothy From popserver Mon Nov 6 23:52:47 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1646" "Mon" "6" "November" "1995" "17:48:30" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "44" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA12615; Mon, 6 Nov 95 15:49:21 PST Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 6 Nov 95 17:48:38 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199511061202.AA02048@student.utwente.nl> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 815701951.002 From: Kevin C Houston To: Timothy van der Linden Cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, bpvanstr@yoho.uwaterloo.ca Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 17:48:30 -0600 (CST) On Mon, 6 Nov 1995, Timothy van der Linden wrote: > > OK, my theory strands on practical difficulties, so we are back to zero. > > So I quote Kevin (Newsletter 00:29 11-04-95) > > >Either beam the power, or > >figure out how to use the Interstellar Medium (ISM) as a brake. I say > >that beaming the power is the quickest easiest solution. > > Beaming the power would still mean a timing problem of about 10 years? And > another problem for this method would be that you get a large amount of > momentum in the wrong direction (ie. in the direction of TC). 1) about the timing problem. Since "Asimov" and the beam are traveling in the same direction, the beam starts at the same time that the "Asimov" does. Also, the beam only needs to be on for about 1.5 years due to relativistic effects 2) this isn't a maser sail, the momentum imparted by the beam itself is negligible compared to the momentum generated by the engine exhaust. and since the engine exhaust can be directed either foreward or backward, this is not a problem > > Using ISM would be great, but it seems that only VERY BIG scoops could do > the trick. I still haven't seen a formula about a scoop field. Kevin you > seem to have one, is it possible that I could see that formula? > I have posted it several times, i will do so again soon. i can't seem to locate it right now, but it's not hard to derivate > Maybe we should find a nearby star in a nebula, that sure would increase the > ISM-density. I'm not sure if there are any nearby nebulae. Does someone know > more about that? > then how do we get from the nebula to the target system? Kevin From popserver Tue Nov 7 18:54:05 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2618" "Tue" "7" "November" "1995" "12:11:57" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "61" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA16096; Tue, 7 Nov 95 03:11:59 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA02078 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 7 Nov 1995 12:11:44 +0100 Message-Id: <199511071111.AA02078@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 815770421.002 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, bpvanstr@yoho.uwaterloo.ca Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 07 Nov 1995 12:11:57 +0100 ReplyTo: Kevin >1) about the timing problem. Since "Asimov" and the beam are traveling >in the same direction, the beam starts at the same time that the "Asimov" >does. Also, the beam only needs to be on for about 1.5 years due to >relativistic effects The Asimov will take at least 1 year to accelerate.So the beam won't start at the same time but at least 1 year later. Also the beam of photons travels with the speed of light so it has be beamed another 5 years later, so that it does not catch up with the Asimov prematurely. Besides that problem, the beam then still has to be aimed exactly at the place where the Asimov will be after about 15 years, and it should be there at that time and not a month later. Maybe I haven't used the correct To me this still seems to be a timing problem. If I'm wrong, tell me where. >2) this isn't a maser sail, the momentum imparted by the beam itself is >negligible compared to the momentum generated by the engine exhaust. and >since the engine exhaust can be directed either foreward or backward, >this is not a problem What matters is the energy:momentum ratio of the beamed power. For the photons in the beam that ratio is: E:p = c:1 where c=3E8 For the Asimov moving at 0.7 c that ratio is: E:p = 0.4c:1 The beam needs to have about 1/0.4=2.5 times less momentum than the Asimov, but that is still a lot, so I can't agree with you that the momentum of the beam is neglectable. Using a particle beam would make the problem worse because you would get the same energy:momentum ratio as the ship. Also a particle beam would mean that the amount of received particles increases as the Asimov slows down. >> Using ISM would be great, but it seems that only VERY BIG scoops could do >> the trick. I still haven't seen a formula about a scoop field. Kevin you >> seem to have one, is it possible that I could see that formula? >> >I have posted it several times, i will do so again soon. i can't seem to >locate it right now, but it's not hard to derivate OK, I look forward to it. (I haven't seen it in any newsletter for at least the last 4 months and don't know how I should derive it.) >> Maybe we should find a nearby star in a nebula, that sure would increase the >> ISM-density. I'm not sure if there are any nearby nebulae. Does someone know >> more about that? >> >then how do we get from the nebula to the target system? My hopes were that the star was in or nearby the nebula, so once you are almost to a standstill you are near your destination. Maybe a nebula implies lifeless planets, but I don't know enough about that. Timothy From popserver Thu Nov 9 22:56:16 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["601" "Thu" "9" "November" "1995" "17:51:33" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "18" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA24270; Thu, 9 Nov 95 14:52:29 PST Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA15091; Thu, 9 Nov 1995 17:51:33 -0500 Message-Id: <951109175132_17750050@mail02.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 815957739.001 From: KellySt@aol.com To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Cc: stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, bpvanstr@yoho.uwaterloo.ca Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 17:51:33 -0500 > ISM-density. I'm not sure if there are any nearby nebulae. > Does someone know more about that? Sorry this area of the galaxy is unusually empty. No nebula, and the stars are unusually far apart. Cooling the engines? Good point! The fusion engines I was talking about are 99.9+% efficent, but at the power levels were talking about we'ld melt the ship. We seem to have talked oiurselves out of all the engine concepts? We can't launch fuel over interstellar distences. The MARS system seems to need impossibly large collector arrays, and eiather system would cook the ship. bummer. Kelly From popserver Fri Nov 10 19:52:04 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6753" "Fri" "10" "November" "1995" "10:15:17" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "138" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA13547; Fri, 10 Nov 95 08:15:35 PST Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Fri, 10 Nov 95 10:15:19 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199511071111.AA02078@student.utwente.nl> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 816033034.034 From: Kevin C Houston To: Timothy van der Linden Cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, bpvanstr@yoho.uwaterloo.ca Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 10:15:17 -0600 (CST) On Tue, 7 Nov 1995, Timothy van der Linden wrote: > ReplyTo: Kevin > > >1) about the timing problem. Since "Asimov" and the beam are traveling > >in the same direction, the beam starts at the same time that the "Asimov" > >does. Also, the beam only needs to be on for about 1.5 years due to > >relativistic effects > > The Asimov will take at least 1 year to accelerate.So the beam won't start > at the same time but at least 1 year later. Also the beam of photons travels > with the speed of light so it has be beamed another 5 years later, so that > it does not catch up with the Asimov prematurely. > Besides that problem, the beam then still has to be aimed exactly at the > place where the Asimov will be after about 15 years, and it should be there > at that time and not a month later. > Maybe I haven't used the correct > To me this still seems to be a timing problem. If I'm wrong, tell me where. Be glad to. First, the "Asimov" will need power from day one, so the beam will be on from day 1. Toward the center of the trip, the "Asimov" will be moving close to C, and will travel with the beam. if you look at the last day of the trip, you see that according to earth's clocks about 13.25 years have elapsed, but since TC is only 12 LY away, that means that the beam of energy left earth only 1.25 years after we did. Also, about "aiming", the maser beam will be a straight line between the two stars, we will follow the beam. there isn't really any "aiming" problem, there _is_ a "jitter" problem ie. how to keep the beam from pointing slightly away from TC and causing the poser to "wink" on and off years later at the "Asimov" > > >2) this isn't a maser sail, the momentum imparted by the beam itself is > >negligible compared to the momentum generated by the engine exhaust. and > >since the engine exhaust can be directed either foreward or backward, > >this is not a problem > > What matters is the energy:momentum ratio of the beamed power. > For the photons in the beam that ratio is: > > E:p = c:1 where c=3E8 > > For the Asimov moving at 0.7 c that ratio is: > > E:p = 0.4c:1 > > The beam needs to have about 1/0.4=2.5 times less momentum than the Asimov, > but that is still a lot, so I can't agree with you that the momentum of the > beam is neglectable. > > Using a particle beam would make the problem worse because you would get the > same energy:momentum ratio as the ship. Also a particle beam would mean that > the amount of received particles increases as the Asimov slows down. no, I am talking about the momentum of the photons as opposed to the momentum of the ions the "Asimov" will eject as exhaust. Those will be Hydrogen ions or maybe Xenon moving at .9996 or (.99996, depending on how much energy you can invest) C at these speeds, a small mass flow is sufficient to slow us down (or speed us up depending on which phase of the mission we are in) at a constant 1 G. Now, about the energy of photons/area of collectors/mass of collectors problem. Any of these so called problems can be solved by the same solution. namely increasing the number of collectors. Timothy, you were talking about the problems associated with 100 collectors/transmitters beaming power to the "Asimov" I agree with you, 100 transmitters is way too small. I was initially planning on 720 (one every half degree) transmitters, but there is no reason (aside from cost) that we can't have 7200, or 7.2 E 18 transmitters (each one sending a few watts of energy and costing ten dollars) increasing the number of transmitters will: reduce the amount of photon thrust that each transmitter is subjected to. reduce the amount of solar array that each trnsmitter must have. reduce the amount of beam jitter (by averaging the errors, they are reduced) reduce the heat load of each transmitter. (the non-Sol side of the solar panels will make an excellent heat radiator) increase the total cost of the mission (hey, you don't get nothing for free) Heat load on the asimov: I do not understand why people think this is a problem, that must mean that I am not seeing something. so, I will tell you why I think this is a non-issue (or even a benefit) . Heat generation will come from two sources. 1) (and the largest) conversion of microwaves to electricity. This takes place with between 85 - 90 percent efficiency, and for our purposes, 15% heat load (from 1E18 Watts) is still a lot. _BUT_ the conversion would take place on the antenna itself. diodes wired directly onto the metal mesh would do the power converting and the mesh (of special radiator fins if need be) could radiate the heat. we have thousands and thousands of square meters of antenna, it would serve as an exceptional radiator. Also, if we used "memory metal" in the antenna, the heat of conversion could be directed to hold the antenna rigid. _also_ Heat (for living quarters etc) radiates as the square of the size of the "Asimov", there will be little or no radiation coming into the living quarters, but a lot will be leaving. We are going to have to do an energy balance on the heat so we can determine the equilibrium temp of the living quarters. but my guess is that it will be on the chilly side, and so we may want all the heat we can get. 2) heat will be generated in the coils for the linear accelerator core. This can be minimized by using superconducting electromagnets, but there will always be inefficiencies. Assuming that we can get 99% efficiency out of superconductors, (not unreasonable) that means we will have to deal with 1 E16 watts of thermal energy. _BUT_ This will be spread out over the length of the entire core. also, we are going to have to raise the temp of the reaction mass from near Zero (kelvin) in the case of Hydrogen, to something approaching room temp (depends on which superconductors you use, we could use the old ceramic style ones, and limit ourselves to ~ 200 K I know a lot of people who'ld like to scrap their old ceramic superconductors for the newer room-temp ones, maybe we can save a buck or two and buy those up ;p ) (the reaction mass would then also serve to cool the superconductors) This heat, rather than the anntenna heat would probably be best suited to heating the living quarters. Surprisingly enough, the exhaust itself will not be all that hot. There is no chemical or fusion reaction going on in the exhaust, so the only heat is the heat we allow to go in from the coils on the magnets. whatever heat is left over, can easily be pumped (using hot water) to the outside of the ship. radiator fins along the length of the ship would radiate the heat into space. Kevin From popserver Fri Nov 10 19:52:08 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["976" "Fri" "10" "November" "1995" "10:24:01" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "27" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA13995; Fri, 10 Nov 95 08:24:15 PST Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Fri, 10 Nov 95 10:24:02 -0600 Reply-To: Kevin C Houston In-Reply-To: <951109175132_17750050@mail02.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 816033034.036 From: Kevin C Houston Sender: Kevin C Houston To: KellySt@aol.com Cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, bpvanstr@yoho.uwaterloo.ca Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 10:24:01 -0600 (CST) To: all Re: LIT I just got a meassage from David saying that he is working hard on restoring the newsletters. I don't know if he sent the same message to everyone else or not, so i thought I'd pass this on. BTW, has anyone kept all copies of the Mini-LIT newsletter to put in the archives? I must admit I have not. And, Brian has written me saying that he no longer wants to get seven messages a day. I wasn't sure how long the current situation would continue, so I wasn't sure how to respond to this message. So what about it brian? You want us to delete your name from the cc: field, or do you want to hang around until the newsletter gets restored? please reply to everyone, so that we all know your wishes. Thanks. Kevin PS anyone else who wants to get deleted needs to respond here also. I am not the "keeper" of the newsletter, I am only one person talking to my friends over the internet. like all internet activities, this is a true anarchy. From popserver Fri Nov 10 19:52:23 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["627" "Fri" "10" "November" "1995" "11:57:29" "-0500" "Brian Van Straalen" "bpvanstr@yoho.uwaterloo.ca" nil "15" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from yoho.uwaterloo.ca by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA15955; Fri, 10 Nov 95 08:57:04 PST Received: (from bpvanstr@localhost) by yoho.uwaterloo.ca (8.6.12/8.6.12UW) id LAA20473; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 11:57:29 -0500 Message-Id: <199511101657.LAA20473@yoho.uwaterloo.ca> In-Reply-To: from "Kevin C Houston" at Nov 10, 95 10:24:01 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 627 X-UIDL: 816033034.044 From: Brian Van Straalen To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 11:57:29 -0500 (EST) > > And, Brian has written me saying that he no longer wants to get seven > messages a day. I wasn't sure how long the current situation would > continue, so I wasn't sure how to respond to this message. > > So what about it brian? You want us to delete your name from the cc: > field, or do you want to hang around until the newsletter gets restored? Seeing as there doesn't seem to be a time frame for re-establishing a newsletter format, I opt to be removed from the cc. field. It would be nice to be re-established into the list when a newsletter does get generated that I can be re-established. thanks, Brian From popserver Fri Nov 10 23:03:19 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4410" "Fri" "10" "November" "1995" "23:57:58" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "110" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA09458; Fri, 10 Nov 95 14:57:42 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA24464 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 10 Nov 1995 23:57:52 +0100 Message-Id: <199511102257.AA24464@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 816044553.000 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, bpvanstr@yoho.uwaterloo.ca Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 23:57:58 +0100 ReplyTo : Kelly ReplyFrom: Timothy >We seem to have talked oiurselves out of all the engine concepts? We can't >launch fuel over interstellar distences. The MARS system seems to need >impossibly large collector arrays, and eiather system would cook the ship. > >bummer. Cheer up Kelly, we will find a way, we can always make a multi-generation ship, I guess. Subject : Photon energy ReplyTo : Kevin ReplyFrom: Timothy OK, I agree with you about the aiming and timing 'problem' I wrote you about. But I think I found another problem, so read on. >> What matters is the energy:momentum ratio of the beamed power. >> For the photons in the beam that ratio is: >> >> E:p = c:1 where c=3E8 >> >> For the Asimov moving at 0.7 c that ratio is: >> >> E:p = 0.4c:1 >> >> The beam needs to have about 1/0.4=2.5 times less momentum than the Asimov, >> but that is still a lot, so I can't agree with you that the momentum of the >> beam is neglectable. WARNING! I made a mistake here, I forgot that the momentum of the Asimov increased while it was receiving photons. So the best thing to do is forget the above. >no, I am talking about the momentum of the photons as opposed to the >momentum of the ions the "Asimov" will eject as exhaust. Those will be >Hydrogen ions or maybe Xenon moving at .9996 or (.99996, depending on how >much energy you can invest) C at these speeds, a small mass flow is >sufficient to slow us down (or speed us up depending on which phase of >the mission we are in) at a constant 1 G. This was clear to me, but rethinking this made me realize that your method can't work. Because adding momentum to the Asimov will only make it move faster. Transforming it to reverse momentum would surely break one of the basic physic laws. In formulas: - You shoot some photons at the Asimov, that will give an energy Up=p*c where p is the momentum of the photon. - To accelerate a mass M to speed v to decelerate the Asimov, we need an amount of energy Uk=M*c^2*(gamma-1). - We use all the energy of the received photons for that acceleration, so Up=Uk --> p*c=M*c^2(gamma-1) --> p=M*c*(gamma-1) - Thus to accellerate a mass M to speed v we need to receive photons which will add us a momentum of p=M*c*(gamma-1). - But of course we can subtract some momentum that we created by shooting that mass M away. That momentum equals to p=gamma*M*v. - Now the problem arises because by receiving photons we gain more momentum that we loose by shooting that mass M away. In physics: gamma*M*v is always less than M*c*(gamma-1) Subject : Solar array ReplyTo : Kevin ReplyFrom: Timothy >increasing the number of transmitters will: >reduce the amount of photon thrust that each transmitter is subjected to. >reduce the amount of solar array that each trnsmitter must have. >reduce the amount of beam jitter (by averaging the errors, they are reduced) >reduce the heat load of each transmitter. (the non-Sol side of the solar > panels will make an excellent heat radiator) >increase the total cost of the mission (hey, you don't get nothing for free) But it won't reduce the total solar array, which is really big: Total Solar Power : 4E26 Watts Area of a globe with radius 1E9 metres : 7.9E17 square metres -> Solar power per square metre : 5E8 Watt Mean amount of power needed by the Asimov : 1E18 Watt -> Size of solar array : 1E18/5E8 = 2E9 square metres = disc with radius 2.5E4 metres. Remember 1E9 metres is quite near Sol. You wouldn't like to be there in your space suit, because 5E8 Joules would be added to your body temperature every second. Subject : Overheating ReplyTo : Kevin ReplyFrom: Timothy The main solution for the energy-leak in your letter was 'radiate it away'. You say the antenna mesh can radiate it away. You assume the leaking-energy can be radiated away before it can do any damage. Let us assume that the leaking-energy is ordinary Ohmic resistance and thus emerges as heat in the mesh. I think that before it can radiate away the mesh is molten or has disappeared altogether. So my problem is wheter one can radiate it away fast enough. And if you seem to be able to guide the energy so well, why not use it. The amount of energy leaving the crew quarters should not be that much, It will probably some kind of thermos flask. From popserver Sun Nov 12 06:55:16 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2320" "Sat" "11" "November" "1995" "22:12:05" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "51" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA13959; Sat, 11 Nov 95 19:12:46 PST Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA18549; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 22:12:05 -0500 Message-Id: <951111221204_104196661@mail02.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 816159261.001 From: KellySt@aol.com To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Cc: stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, bpvanstr@yoho.uwaterloo.ca Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 22:12:05 -0500 >> Heat load on the asimov: >> Heat generation will come from two sources. >> 1) (and the largest) conversion of microwaves to >> electricity. This takes place with between 85 - 90 >> percent efficiency, and for our purposes, 15% >> heat load (from 1E18 Watts) is still a lot. >> _BUT_ >> the conversion would take place on the antenna itself. >> diodes wired directly onto the metal mesh would do the >> power converting and the mesh (of special radiator fins >> if need be) could radiate the heat. we have thousands and >> thousands of square meters of antenna, it would serve as >> an exceptional radiator. ---- I'll buy this part. With the hundreds to thousands of square kilometers of mesh you've been taling about you have a lot of radiator space. Asuming you can radiate the energy away fast enough to keep everything down to operating temperature. If you want supper conductors this could be dicy. They like cold temps and radiators like it very hot. >> 2) heat will be generated in the coils for the linear >> accelerator core. This can be minimized by using >> superconducting electromagnets, but there will always be >> inefficiencies. Assuming that we can get 99% efficiency >> out of superconductors, (not unreasonable) that means we >> will have to deal with 1 E16 watts of thermal energy. >> _BUT_ >> This will be spread out over the length of the entire core. >> also, we are going to have to raise the temp of the >> reaction mass from near Zero (kelvin) in the case of >> Hydrogen, to something approaching room temp >> -- (the reaction mass would then also serve to cool the >> superconductors) >> This heat, rather than the anntenna heat would probably be >> best suited to heating the living quarters. Kevin, the heat your talking about is enough to provide for all the electricity for a few thousand cities the size of Chicago! Thats the kind of power that keeps all those cities outside air temp a few degrees above country temps. You can't just brush that off by saying the engine will be a few klicks long and were can pump a lot of heat into the reaction mass. (Frankly I doubt the reaction mass can absorb that kind of heat load.) This is a lot of power, and we need to know what were going to do with it or the ship will cook itself alive. Kelly From popserver Sun Nov 12 06:55:54 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2171" "Sat" "11" "November" "1995" "22:12:41" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "52" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA14016; Sat, 11 Nov 95 19:14:20 PST Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA28603; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 22:12:41 -0500 Message-Id: <951111221240_104196975@mail04.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 816159261.003 From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, bpvanstr@yoho.uwaterloo.ca Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 22:12:41 -0500 >> Subject : Photon energy >> ReplyTo : Kevin >> ReplyFrom: Timothy >no, I am talking about the momentum of the photons as opposed to the >momentum of the ions the "Asimov" will eject as exhaust. Those will be >Hydrogen ions or maybe Xenon moving at .9996 or (.99996, depending on how >much energy you can invest) C at these speeds, a small mass flow is >sufficient to slow us down (or speed us up depending on which phase of >the mission we are in) at a constant 1 G. >> This was clear to me, but rethinking this made me >> realize that your method can't work. Because adding >> momentum to the Asimov will only make it move >> faster. Transforming it to reverse momentum would >> surely break one of the basic physic laws. No Tim. The momentum of the microwave is simply added load on the antena support structure (which is an extreamly unlikely structure) assuming it can take the load the power (electric) them feeds the engines which use it to produce forward or backward thrust. No violation of conservation of momentum. As long as the engine is powerful enough (and antenna strong enough) to overcome the thrust load of the photon sail effect of the big antenna. Every thing is fine. >> Subject : Solar array >> ReplyTo : Kevin >> ReplyFrom: Timothy >> But it won't reduce the total solar array, which is really big: >> Total Solar Power : 4E26 Watts >> Area of a globe with radius 1E9 metres : 7.9E17 square >> metres >> -> Solar power per square metre : 5E8 Watt >> Mean amount of power needed by the Asimov : 1E18 Watt >> -> Size of solar array : 1E18/5E8 = 2E9 square metres >> = disc with radius 2.5E4 metres. >> Remember 1E9 metres is quite near Sol. You wouldn't like >> to be there in your space suit, because 5E8 Joules would >> be added to your body temperature every second. Are you talking about a 5 kilometer disk a million kilometers from the suns surface? Does this not strike you as a servicing problem? Solar Power Density out here by earth is 1.35 KW/m^2 not the 5E8 Watt/m^2, but the equipment will be a lot more likely to keep working. Kelly Starks From popserver Mon Nov 13 05:58:00 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6302" "Mon" "13" "November" "1995" "01:18:59" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "138" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA26965; Sun, 12 Nov 95 16:18:26 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA07137 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 13 Nov 1995 01:18:54 +0100 Message-Id: <199511130018.AA07137@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 816242187.022 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 01:18:59 +0100 ReplyFrom: Timothy Subject : LIT >BTW, has anyone kept all copies of the Mini-LIT newsletter to put in the >archives? I must admit I have not. I did, if some one needs it, ask... ReplyTo : Kelly ReplyFrom: Timothy Subject : Drawings About the drawing: where did you plan the shielding. And does it ride along with the hab ring, thus at 1 g? I had in mind that we made a shielding tube in which the hab-sections rotated. So then the shielding would not move and would not create an extra outward stress-factor. >>> What program did you use. > >RayDream designer 3. They were selling it for $100 bucks in MacWarehouse and >such a while back. So I picked it up. Won't run on the old Macintosh Plus I >have at home, but it runs like a bat out of hell on the new power Mac I have >at the office. I figured it would encourage me to get a new computer faster. If any one else likes doing raytraces, you can get PovRay or Radiance for FREE on the internet. I use PovRay and can make the same kinds of drawings. These are well know raytracers and work great. These programs are available for different platforms. (Tip: jpeg images would be about 4 times smaller, so would mean a less bytes with almost the same image quality) >Far larger than that. A multi generation ship would be technically far >harder then a fast relatavistic ship. To have half a chance it would need to >be compleatly self contained and self sufficent. With enough fuel and >resources for decades to centuries. Say a couple times the size of Manhattan >and with a population of hundreds of thousands of people. All that assuming >a big jump in technology to support it all with a crew that small. Indeed the ship itself would probably bigger than a rel. ship but, I don't think that energy will be a problem. The amounts of energy needed for a rel. ship are far more. It's quite easy to calculate the amount of energy that is needed for a self sustaining system. On Earth the energy income is 1400 Watts per square metre. With that energy all plants and animals seems to do well. Now the question is how much space per person is needed. Say 10000 square metres? That makes 4.4E14 Watts per person per year. The rel. ship engine would use 1000 times more per second. So now the only problem is to build that large ship. Material from astroids would probably be the main source. At the outer part of our solar system there seem to be billions of them in all the sizes you want. Making a self sufficient system should not be that hard with enough energy available. ReplyFrom: Timothy ReplyTo : Kevin and Kelly >>> _BUT_ >>> the conversion would take place on the antenna itself. >>> diodes wired directly onto the metal mesh would do the >>> power converting and the mesh (of special radiator fins >>> if need be) could radiate the heat. we have thousands and >>> thousands of square meters of antenna, it would serve as >>> an exceptional radiator. ---- > >I'll buy this part. With the hundreds to thousands of square kilometers of >mesh you've been taling about you have a lot of radiator space. Asuming you >can radiate the energy away fast enough to keep everything down to operating >temperature. If you want supper conductors this could be dicy. They like >cold temps and radiators like it very hot. I don't buy that part: Take 1 square kilometre or 1E6 square metres, that means 1E18/1E6=1E12 Watt per square metre. Take 10% of that and you get 1E11 Watts of lost energy per square metre. That sure would melt anything away. Even with thousands of square kilometres it is still too much. >Kevin, the heat your talking about is enough to provide for all the >electricity for a few thousand cities the size of Chicago! Thats the kind of >power that keeps all those cities outside air temp a few degrees above >country temps. You can't just brush that off by saying the engine will be a >few klicks long and were can pump a lot of heat into the reaction mass. > (Frankly I doubt the reaction mass can absorb that kind of heat load.) This >is a lot of power, and we need to know what were going to do with it or the >ship will cook itself alive. I agree. Also super conducting wires don't like very heavy currents. Subject : Photon energy ReplyTo : Kelly ReplyFrom: Timothy >>no, I am talking about the momentum of the photons as opposed to the >>momentum of the ions the "Asimov" will eject as exhaust. Those will be >>Hydrogen ions or maybe Xenon moving at .9996 or (.99996, depending on how >>much energy you can invest) C at these speeds, a small mass flow is >>sufficient to slow us down (or speed us up depending on which phase of >>the mission we are in) at a constant 1 G. > >>> This was clear to me, but rethinking this made me >>> realize that your method can't work. Because adding >>> momentum to the Asimov will only make it move >>> faster. Transforming it to reverse momentum would >>> surely break one of the basic physic laws. > >No Tim. The momentum of the microwave is simply added load on the antena >support structure (which is an extreamly unlikely structure) assuming it can >take the load the power (electric) them feeds the engines which use it to >produce forward or backward thrust. No violation of conservation of >momentum. As long as the engine is powerful enough (and antenna strong >enough) to overcome the thrust load of the photon sail effect of the big >antenna. Every thing is fine. No, that's not what I meant. I think that the energy that is gained by receiving the photons is not enough to overcome the velocity gain that you get by receiving these photons. So a powerful engine doesn't work because there isn't enough fuel. Subject: Solar array ReplyTo : Kelly ReplyFrom: Timothy >Are you talking about a 5 kilometer disk a million kilometers from the suns >surface? Does this not strike you as a servicing problem? In fact I was talking about a 50 kilometre disc... >Solar Power Density out here by earth is 1.35 KW/m^2 not the 5E8 Watt/m^2, >but the equipment will be a lot more likely to keep working. I agree completely, but having it so near Earth means a much bigger array. 5E8/1.35E3=3.7E5 times bigger to be exact. That is about 1.5 times the surface of the Earth!!! That seems to be an even bigger problem :) From popserver Mon Nov 13 18:03:10 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["7269" "Mon" "13" "November" "1995" "04:38:45" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "177" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA21414; Mon, 13 Nov 95 02:38:39 PST Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 13 Nov 95 04:38:45 -0600 Reply-To: Kevin C Houston In-Reply-To: <199511102257.AA24464@student.utwente.nl> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 816285714.005 From: Kevin C Houston Sender: Kevin C Houston To: Timothy van der Linden Cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 04:38:45 -0600 (CST) On Fri, 10 Nov 1995, Timothy van der Linden wrote: > ReplyTo : Kelly > ReplyFrom: Timothy > > >We seem to have talked oiurselves out of all the engine concepts? We can't > >launch fuel over interstellar distences. The MARS system seems to need > >impossibly large collector arrays, and eiather system would cook the ship. > > > >bummer. > > Cheer up Kelly, we will find a way, we can always make a multi-generation > ship, I guess. Subject : Photon energy ReplyTo : Timothy ReplyFrom: Kevin > > OK, I agree with you about the aiming and timing 'problem' I wrote you > about. But I think I found another problem, so read on. > > >> What matters is the energy:momentum ratio of the beamed power. > >> For the photons in the beam that ratio is: > >> > >> E:p = c:1 where c=3E8 > >> > >> For the Asimov moving at 0.7 c that ratio is: > >> > >> E:p = 0.4c:1 > >> > >> The beam needs to have about 1/0.4=2.5 times less momentum than the Asimov, > >> but that is still a lot, so I can't agree with you that the momentum of the > >> beam is neglectable. > > WARNING! > I made a mistake here, I forgot that the momentum of the Asimov increased > while it was receiving photons. So the best thing to do is forget the above. > That's good, because i didn't understand it anyway. > >no, I am talking about the momentum of the photons as opposed to the > >momentum of the ions the "Asimov" will eject as exhaust. Those will be > >Hydrogen ions or maybe Xenon moving at .9996 or (.99996, depending on how > >much energy you can invest) C at these speeds, a small mass flow is > >sufficient to slow us down (or speed us up depending on which phase of > >the mission we are in) at a constant 1 G. > > This was clear to me, but rethinking this made me realize that your method > can't work. Because adding momentum to the Asimov will only make it move > faster. Transforming it to reverse momentum would surely break one of the > basic physic laws. > Huh? We won't be "subtracting" momentum, We'll just be adding it in the direction opposite to our direction of travel... thus we slow down and no physical laws get broken in the process. That's why a linear accelerator is better than a sail, you can aim your exhaust out of either end. > In formulas: > > - You shoot some photons at the Asimov, that will give an energy Up=p*c > where p is the momentum of the photon. > - To accelerate a mass M to speed v to decelerate the Asimov, we need an > amount of energy Uk=M*c^2*(gamma-1). > - We use all the energy of the received photons for that acceleration, > so Up=Uk --> p*c=M*c^2(gamma-1) --> p=M*c*(gamma-1) > - Thus to accellerate a mass M to speed v we need to receive photons which > will add us a momentum of p=M*c*(gamma-1). > - But of course we can subtract some momentum that we created by shooting > that mass M away. That momentum equals to p=gamma*M*v. > - Now the problem arises because by receiving photons we gain more momentum > that we loose by shooting that mass M away. > In physics: gamma*M*v is always less than M*c*(gamma-1) > All these formulas have me confused, let me see if I can work this out using some real (made-up) numbers. assume E=1 E+19 Watts, mass of "Asimov" = 2.5 E+09 Kg, wavelength of beam = 21 cm. I think we both agree that during the accel phase, the momentum from the photons helps us accelerate. But you are saying that the momentum of the photons is more than the momentum of the exhaust stream during the decelleration phase. hmm. let's see... p=E/c therefore p=3.34 E+10 Kg m/s the "Asimov" masses at 2.5 E+09 so if p=m v then v=p/m and v, (the amount of velocity change) = 13.34 m/s so every second that the beam is on us, we get "pushed" toward T.C. at 13.34 m/s faster than we were before. now let's use that energy we absorbed (minus 20% for conversion losses, now E= 8 E+18) to accelerate some amount of material to allow us to slow down. to find out how much material (per second) we must eject, let's use the rocket equation first. the apparent mass Ma (as seen by the crew) of the exhaust is g * M /Ve * c where Ve is .9996 and g is 23.34 (10 m/s^2 for us, and 13.34 m/s^2 to counteract the photonic thrust) so Ma= 194.71 Kg/sec moving at .9996 of c. note that this is only 3.89 Kg out of the tanks so thus the rest mass of the exhaust is 3.89 Kg/sec. Now let's see how much energy it takes to accelerate 3.89 Kg to .9996 of c the energy will equal the kinetic energy of accelerating the mass to the required speed, plus the energy of the "mass increase" E=Ke + Re Ke=1/2 m v^2 = 1/2 *3.89* (.9996*c)^2 = 1.74 E+17 Re= m c^2 = (194.71 - 3.89) * c^2 = 1.71 E+19 total energy required = 1.73 E+19 But we only have 1 E+19 (8 E+18 after conversion losses) what if we slowed down at 5m/s^2 the rocket equation: g is 18.34 (10 m/s^2 for us, and 13.34 m/s^2 to counteract the photonic thrust) so Ma= 153.00 Kg/sec moving at .9996 of c. note that this is only 3.06 Kg out of the tanks so thus the rest mass of the exhaust is 3.06 Kg/sec. Now let's see how much energy it takes to accelerate 3.89 Kg to .9996 of c the energy will equal the kinetic energy of accelerating the mass to the required speed, plus the energy of the "mass increase" E=Ke + Re Ke=1/2 m v^2 = 1/2 *3.06* (.9996*c)^2 = 1.34 E+17 Re= m c^2 = (153.00 - 3.89) * c^2 = 1.34 E+19 Hardly any decrease at all. Okay, Okay, I see your point (finally). so we can speed up, but we can't slow down even using beamed power. unless we use a retro reflecting ring sail, and that seems like such a waste > > Subject : Solar array > ReplyTo : Kevin > ReplyFrom: Timothy > > >increasing the number of transmitters will: > >reduce the amount of photon thrust that each transmitter is subjected to. > >reduce the amount of solar array that each trnsmitter must have. > >reduce the amount of beam jitter (by averaging the errors, they are reduced) > >reduce the heat load of each transmitter. (the non-Sol side of the solar > > panels will make an excellent heat radiator) > >increase the total cost of the mission (hey, you don't get nothing for free) > > But it won't reduce the total solar array, which is really big: > > Total Solar Power : 4E26 Watts Not really all that much more than the power a 2.5 E+09 Kg ship needs to get up to lightspeed in a decent amount of time. I think the ship needs to go on a diet! > Area of a globe with radius 1E9 metres : 7.9E17 square metres > -> Solar power per square metre : 5E8 Watt > > Mean amount of power needed by the Asimov : 1E18 Watt > -> Size of solar array : 1E18/5E8 = 2E9 square metres > = disc with radius 2.5E4 metres. > or 1000 disks with radius of 25 metres (Okay, Okay, a little more than 25 meters, but you get the point.) > Remember 1E9 metres is quite near Sol. You wouldn't like to be there in your > space suit, because 5E8 Joules would be added to your body temperature every > second. No one would be there, the transmitters would be built near earth, and launched into close solar orbit. if one or another fails, you launch another one rather than try and fix it. Kevin From popserver Tue Nov 14 01:11:43 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["6004" "Mon" "13" "November" "1995" "19:14:11" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" "<951113191409_21423872@mail06.mail.aol.com>" "147" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA04697; Mon, 13 Nov 95 16:16:39 PST Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA17058; Mon, 13 Nov 1995 19:14:11 -0500 Message-Id: <951113191409_21423872@mail06.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 816311356.035 From: KellySt@aol.com To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 19:14:11 -0500 to: rddesign@wolfenet.com To: KellySt@aol.com >>> Heat load on the asimov: > >> Kelly >> This is way outside of my knowledge but couldn't this heat >> be expelled like exhaust and added to the thrust? Heat is >> just hot particles, isn't it? No such luck. Heat is eiather the thermal vibration of the molecules in an object, or infared radiation (life in a radiative heater). Can't think of how we'ld pump all the heat out of the ship fast enough to keep it cool. ReplyTo : Kelly ReplyFrom: Timothy Subject : Drawings >> About the drawing: where did you plan the shielding. And >> does it ride along with the hab ring, thus at 1 g? >> I had in mind that we made a shielding tube in which the >> hab-sections rotated. So then the shielding would not >> move and would not create an extra outward stress-factor. I was thinking of having the shielding in a fixed U shaped shielding trough that runs around the inside of the outer hull (the open end of the U points inward). If the shielding is made of steel instead of lead, the hab centrafuge tracks can run around on the top edges of the U. (of course the steel would be at least 3 feet thick!) >> (Tip: jpeg images would be about 4 times smaller, so would >> mean a less bytes with almost the same image quality) Now if Rick would get a JPEG viewer. ;) >Far larger than that. A multi generation ship would be technically far >harder then a fast relatavistic ship. To have half a chance it would need to >be compleatly self contained and self sufficent. With enough fuel and >resources for decades to centuries. Say a couple times the size of Manhattan >and with a population of hundreds of thousands of people. All that assuming >a big jump in technology to support it all with a crew that small. >> Indeed the ship itself would probably bigger than a rel. ship but, I don't >> think that energy will be a problem. The amounts of energy needed for a rel. >> ship are far more. ---- 4.4E14 Watts per person per year. The rel. ship >> engine would use 1000 times more per second. Of course instead of a 5 year (ship time) trip, your talking about centuries to thousands of years, and a crew 10-1000 times larger, and a proportianatly larger ship, etc... You might make an energy savings, but it wouldn't be as dramatic as you might expect. >> So now the only problem is to build that large ship. Material >> from astroids --- Making a self sufficient system should >> not be that hard with enough energy available. Building things takes skills, tools, and materials, as well as power. Of course we didn't give the ship tremendous power reserves. ReplyFrom: Timothy ReplyTo : Kevin and Kelly >>> _BUT_ >>> the conversion would take place on the antenna itself. >>> diodes wired directly onto the metal mesh would do the >>> power converting and the mesh (of special radiator fins >>> if need be) could radiate the heat. we have thousands and >>> thousands of square meters of antenna, it would serve as >>> an exceptional radiator. ---- > >I'll buy this part. With the hundreds to thousands of square kilometers of >mesh you've been taling about you have a lot of radiator space. Asuming you >can radiate the energy away fast enough to keep everything down to operating >temperature. If you want supper conductors this could be dicy. They like >cold temps and radiators like it very hot. >> I don't buy that part: Take 1 square kilometre or 1E6 square metres, that >> means 1E18/1E6=1E12 Watt per square metre. Take 10% of that and you get 1E11 >> Watts of lost energy per square metre. That sure would melt anything away. >> Even with thousands of square kilometres it is still too much. Good point. Subject : Photon energy ReplyTo : Kelly ReplyFrom: Timothy >>no, I am talking about the momentum of the photons as opposed to the >>momentum of the ions the "Asimov" will eject as exhaust. Those will be >>Hydrogen ions or maybe Xenon moving at .9996 or (.99996, depending on how >>much energy you can invest) C at these speeds, a small mass flow is >>sufficient to slow us down (or speed us up depending on which phase of >>the mission we are in) at a constant 1 G. > >>> This was clear to me, but rethinking this made me >>> realize that your method can't work. Because adding >>> momentum to the Asimov will only make it move >>> faster. Transforming it to reverse momentum would >>> surely break one of the basic physic laws. > >No Tim. The momentum of the microwave is simply added load on the antena >support structure (which is an extreamly unlikely structure) assuming it can >take the load the power (electric) them feeds the engines which use it to >produce forward or backward thrust. No violation of conservation of >momentum. As long as the engine is powerful enough (and antenna strong >enough) to overcome the thrust load of the photon sail effect of the big >antenna. Every thing is fine. >> >> No, that's not what I meant. I think that the energy that is gained by >> >> receiving the photons is not enough to overcome the velocity gain that you >> >> get by receiving these photons. So a powerful engine doesn't work because >> >> there isn't enough fuel. This can't be right. If it was no solar electric drive could ever work. Besides it sounds like you have a conservation of energy contradiction here. Subject: Solar array ReplyTo : Kelly ReplyFrom: Timothy >Are you talking about a 5 kilometer disk a million kilometers from the suns >surface? Does this not strike you as a servicing problem? In fact I was talking about a 50 kilometre disc... >Solar Power Density out here by earth is 1.35 KW/m^2 not the 5E8 Watt/m^2, >but the equipment will be a lot more likely to keep working. >> I agree completely, but having it so near Earth means a much bigger array. >> 5E8/1.35E3=3.7E5 times bigger to be exact. That is about 1.5 times the >> surface of the Earth!!! That seems to be an even bigger problem :) Ok, eiather system is infeasable. Kelly From popserver Tue Nov 14 01:58:01 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1318" "Mon" "13" "November" "1995" "17:53:32" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "32" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA10462; Mon, 13 Nov 95 17:52:43 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id RAA11645; Mon, 13 Nov 1995 17:53:32 -0800 Message-Id: <199511140153.RAA11645@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <951113191409_21423872@mail06.mail.aol.com> References: <951113191409_21423872@mail06.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 816314212.001 From: Steve VanDevender To: KellySt@aol.com Cc: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 17:53:32 -0800 KellySt@aol.com writes: > to: rddesign@wolfenet.com > To: KellySt@aol.com > > >>> Heat load on the asimov: > > > >> Kelly > >> This is way outside of my knowledge but couldn't this heat > >> be expelled like exhaust and added to the thrust? Heat is > >> just hot particles, isn't it? > > No such luck. Heat is eiather the thermal vibration of the molecules in an > object, or infared radiation (life in a radiative heater). Can't think of > how we'ld pump all the heat out of the ship fast enough to keep it cool. Heat is purely statistically random molecular motion. Infrared radiation is just a form of radiation that is good at inducing heat in common materials. Regarding this whole momentum-transfer issue, in some far-distant posting to the newsletter I pointed out that a reflective sail is the most efficient option for accelerating a spacecraft with beamed power; it changes photons with momentum +p into photons with momentum -p, and thereby increases the spacecraft momentum by 2p. It is unlikely that you could absorb the photons and use them to power a mass driver with greater efficiency than the reflectivity of a mirror. Using beamed power to decelerate a ship that's going in the same direction as the photons is more problematic. At best the efficiency is going to be bad. From popserver Wed Nov 15 03:51:19 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4909" "Tue" "14" "November" "1995" "21:09:22" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "139" "EUREKA!!!!!!!!!! (ha ha ha ha ha ha) >:-)" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA29318; Tue, 14 Nov 95 19:09:19 PST Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Tue, 14 Nov 95 21:09:23 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199511140153.RAA11645@tzadkiel.efn.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 816407391.009 From: Kevin C Houston To: Steve VanDevender Cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Subject: EUREKA!!!!!!!!!! (ha ha ha ha ha ha) >:-) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 21:09:22 -0600 (CST) On Mon, 13 Nov 1995, Steve VanDevender wrote: > Regarding this whole momentum-transfer issue, in some far-distant > posting to the newsletter I pointed out that a reflective sail is > the most efficient option for accelerating a spacecraft with > beamed power; it changes photons with momentum +p into photons > with momentum -p, and thereby increases the spacecraft momentum > by 2p. It is unlikely that you could absorb the photons and use > them to power a mass driver with greater efficiency than the > reflectivity of a mirror. > Agreed. > Using beamed power to decelerate a ship that's going in the same > direction as the photons is more problematic. At best the > efficiency is going to be bad. > It is, which is why I proposed a linear accelerator in the first place. _BUT_ (drum roll please) I HAVE SOLVED THE PROBLEM OF SLOWING DOWN!!!! (Okay, Okay, I'll calm down now. And promise not to be so smug for the rest of this message) To Review: The main problem is that the momentum of the recieved photons is greater than the emitted exhaust. This is as it should be, the exhaust can't travel at C, and besides there's always losses. Solar electric space craft work because the ejected ion stream is traveling at far less than the speed of light, so the energy needed is less. and besides, the light is almost never coming from straight behind. But I digress. First, there is _no_ way to reduce the momentum imparted by the photons. However, we _can_ change the _direction_ of the thrust. or to paraphrase an old Chinese proverb. You can't change the direction of the wind, but you can adjust the sail. Do you see it yet? the solution? Tilted sail. Physical Design. (highly stylized ascii art) ////////// \\\\\\\\\\ <---- Sail elements |~~| | | <- ship Note: support cables omitted | | | | y | | ^ | | Energy is beamed from below in this | | | diagram. |--> x | | |__| The Sail (and it is a sail for most of the flight) is made of concentric conic sections tilted at 76.6 degrees (more on this later) this changes the direction of the imparted velocity, and since the sail elements have a circular symetry, the x componets of the force cancel out. A Force Balance on one sail element: Velocity y / <-- Sail element Vector\ component / \ | / \ | / \ | / \ | / \ | / x component_________\|/ / angle T (for theta) / / ________________________ There is another element on the other side of the ship whose x component cancels this one. The y component is Fy=F*cos (T) where F equals E/c. Some constants: c - Speed of Light (of course) = 3.0 E+08 m/s Ms - Mass of ship (RM neglected for now) = 2.5 E+09 Kg G - Ship's Gravity = 10 m/s^2 Ve - Exhaust velocity = .9996 c Eb - Beamed energy = 3.24 E+19 Watts Pe - Engine Thrust = 2 G T - angle of sail elements = 76.6 degrees (this value was found by trial) (and error and is critical ) Some equations: Photon Thrust(Newtons) Pp = E / c * cos (T) / Ms Pp=3.24E+19 / 3.0 E+08 * cos (76.6) / 2.5 E+09 = 10 m/s^2 Exhaust Mass (Kg/sec) Me = Pe * Ms / (Ve * c) Me = 20 * 2.5 E+09 / (0.9996 * 3 E+08) = 166.73 Kg/sec Exhaust Rest Mass (Kg/sec)Mr = Me * SQRT(1- Ve^2) Mr = 166.73 * Sqrt (1-0.9996^2) = 4.72 Kg/sec Kinetic Energy in Exhaust Ke = 1/2 * Mr * (Ve *c)^2 Ke = 1/2 * 4.72 * (0.9996 * 3 E+08) = 2.12 E+17 Relativistic Energy Er = (Me-Mr)*c^2 Er = (166.73 - 4.72) * 3 E+08^2 = 1.46 E+19 Total energy needed Et = Er + Ke Et = 2.12 E+17 + 1.46 E+19 = 1.48 E+19 Energy Available Ea = Eb * .8 (conversion losses) Ea = 3.24 E+19 * .8 = 1.66 E+19 And as you can see, the energy Available exceeds the energy needed. No physical laws get broken. During the Accel phase, the engines are quiet. The "Asimov" accelerates by reflected maser power (the transmitters operate at 1/2 power because the "Asimov" is Reflecting the maser, not Absorbing it like the above equations assume. This solution is more expensive (in terms of energy and sail area) it has a few extra benefits: the radial force component (x in the above force diagram) allows us to use tensile forces to hold the sail together (yes, it's a lot of force, but I think it is possible to do from an engineering standpoint) Kevin From popserver Wed Nov 15 14:33:27 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["11732" "Wed" "15" "November" "1995" "15:22:36" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "276" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA27839; Wed, 15 Nov 95 06:22:11 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA06167 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 15 Nov 1995 15:22:20 +0100 Message-Id: <199511151422.AA06167@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_816470556==_" X-Attachments: C:\RAY.GIF; X-UIDL: 816445922.005 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 15:22:36 +0100 --=====================_816470556==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The first part of this letter has been retarded a few days because of a bad working mail-demon... I added the newer part after the first two older messages. Subject : Photon energy ReplyTo : Timothy ReplyFrom: Kevin >All these formulas have me confused, let me see if I can work this out >using some real (made-up) numbers. assume E=1 E+19 Watts, mass of "Asimov" >= 2.5 E+09 Kg, wavelength of beam = 21 cm. >I think we both agree that during the accel phase, the momentum from the >photons helps us accelerate. But you are saying that the momentum of the >photons is more than the momentum of the exhaust stream during the >decelleration phase. hmm. let's see... > >p=E/c therefore p=3.34 E+10 Kg m/s the "Asimov" masses at 2.5 E+09 so >if p=m v then v=p/m and v, (the amount of velocity change) = 13.34 m/s so >every second that the beam is on us, we get "pushed" toward T.C. at 13.34 >m/s faster than we were before. > >now let's use that energy we absorbed (minus 20% for conversion losses, >now E= 8 E+18) to accelerate some amount of material to allow us to slow >down. to find out how much material (per second) we must eject, let's use >the rocket equation first. the apparent mass Ma (as seen by the crew) of the >exhaust is g * M /Ve * c where Ve is .9996 and g is 23.34 (10 m/s^2 for >us, and 13.34 m/s^2 to counteract the photonic thrust) so Ma= 194.71 Kg/sec >moving at .9996 of c. note that this is only 3.89 Kg out of the tanks so >thus the rest mass of the exhaust is 3.89 Kg/sec. > >Now let's see how much energy it takes to accelerate 3.89 Kg to .9996 of c >the energy will equal the kinetic energy of accelerating the mass to the >required speed, plus the energy of the "mass increase" E=Ke + Re >Ke=1/2 m v^2 = 1/2 *3.89* (.9996*c)^2 = 1.74 E+17 >Re= m c^2 = (194.71 - 3.89) * c^2 = 1.71 E+19 > >total energy required = 1.73 E+19 < Some text left out> >Okay, Okay, I see your point (finally). so we can speed up, but we can't >slow down even using beamed power. unless we use a retro reflecting ring >sail, and that seems like such a waste I'm happy to hear this. Unfortunately your conclusion was based on wrong calculations. I will explain here: You used: g * M /Ve * c but that formula is non relativistic. The right formula would be: g * M /(Ve * c * gamma) This gives the mass exhaust per second. That mass does not need to be translated to 'out of the tanks'-mass. After that you use a strange and wrong method to calculate the needed energy. The right formula for kinetic energy would be: E=m c^2 (gamma-1) (You don't need to create the rest energy, that part is already onboard the ship in the form of mass) So re-doing your first calculation: Take a=13.34 m/s^2 (this is the minimum to get even with the received photons) gamma=35.36 for v=0.9996c (gamma=1/SQRT(1-v^2/c^2) m/t=M a/(gamma Vexh) = 2.5E9 13.34/(35.36 0.9996 c) = 3.15 Kg needed E=m c^2 (gamma-1)=3.15 c^2 (35.36-1)= 9.73E18 So 1E19-9.73E18=2.7E17 Watt left over, that will give an acceleration of about 0.38 m/s^2 (This all assumes 100% efficiency) So I was not completely right saying it was impossible, but very efficient is it certainly not. I'm very happy that you tried to do the calculations, it makes it easier to find the difficulties. From my physics background I'm used to do more in formulas and less in numbers. Next time I will try to remember and use some numbers also. Subject : Solar array ReplyTo : Kevin ReplyFrom: Timothy >> But it won't reduce the total solar array, which is really big: >> >> Total Solar Power : 4E26 Watts > >Not really all that much more than the power a 2.5 E+09 Kg ship needs to >get up to lightspeed in a decent amount of time. I think the ship needs >to go on a diet! There is still a factor 1E5 involved. That is still much more, so a diet is not necessary and not possible if we want a relativistic ship. Meaning our ship could be 1E5 times heavier. >> Mean amount of power needed by the Asimov : 1E18 Watt >> -> Size of solar array : 1E18/5E8 = 2E9 square metres >> = disc with radius 2.5E4 metres. >> >or 1000 disks with radius of 25 metres (Okay, Okay, a little more than 25 >meters, but you get the point.) You mean 1.000.000 disks with radius of 25 metres! 1000 disks or 1 million disks that makes quite a difference. >> Remember 1E9 metres is quite near Sol. You wouldn't like to be there in your >> space suit, because 5E8 Joules would be added to your body temperature every >> second. > >No one would be there, the transmitters would be built near earth, and >launched into close solar orbit. if one or another fails, you launch >another one rather than try and fix it. I agree. But launching 1 million disks? Two other problems I could think of: - Any black spot on the solar array will probably melt away. - Each disk would be about 6 kilometres apart if they are in the same orbit. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ NEWER PART ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ReplyTo : Keving ReplyFrom: Timothy Subject : The bathtub is flowing over (EUREKA) >I HAVE SOLVED THE PROBLEM OF SLOWING DOWN!!!! First convince me... then celebrate... >First, there is _no_ way to reduce the momentum imparted by the photons. >However, we _can_ change the _direction_ of the thrust. NO and yes, you cannot change the initial size and direction of the photon thrust, but you can (of course) choose the direction of the thrust when transmitting a photon. In better words: You should see the reflection of a photon as two steps, independant of each other. The first step is receiving the photon where momenum to your mirror is added in the same direction as the photon CAME FROM. The second step is transmitting(reflecting) the photon, hereby is the momentum of the photon added in the opposite direction the photon GOES TO. So if you shoot a photon from the negative x direction to a mirror which is has 45 degree angle(on the x=y line) it first gets the momentum p in the x direction and second the momentum p in the y direction. This makes a total momentum of Sqrt(p^2+p^2)=Sqrt(2)*p in the xy direction. ^ | y | / | ______|/ | / +--- x / >Total energy needed Et = Er + Ke >Et = 2.12 E+17 + 1.46 E+19 = 1.48 E+19 > >Energy Available Ea = Eb * .8 (conversion losses) >Ea = 3.24 E+19 * .8 = 1.66 E+19 I think I know what you mean: (better formulas, see the previous message) Pp=10 m/s^2 Mr = Pe*Ms/(gamma Ve *c) = 20*2.5E9/(35.4 0.9996 3E8) = 4.72 Kg/sec Et = Me c^2(gamma-1) = 4.72 9E16 (35.4-1)=1.46E19 So, indeed much less than 3.24E19 But now how do you capture the photons? You are talking about mirrors (sail) all the time but not about capture. (I included a GIF-image of how I think you would do that) I still don't know why you used an angle of 76.6, doing the calculation with an angle of 85 degrees you need even less energy. My guess is that you forgot the capturing of the photons and therefore forgot to add momentum somewhere. You tried to trick the photons and thereby violated the preservation of momentum: If you receive an amount of photons, all their momentum is transferred to you. Once more, whatever ingenious construction you can think of, to receive a certain amount of photons and use their energy, you ALWAYS get ALL their momentum in the same direction as they went to. ReplyTo : Kelly ReplyFrom: Timothy Subject : Drawings >I was thinking of having the shielding in a fixed U shaped shielding trough >that runs around the inside of the outer hull (the open end of the U points >inward). If the shielding is made of steel instead of lead, the hab >centrafuge tracks can run around on the top edges of the U. (of course the >steel would be at least 3 feet thick!) That seems to be almost the same as what I wrote. OK. >>> (Tip: jpeg images would be about 4 times smaller, so would >>> mean a less bytes with almost the same image quality) > >Now if Rick would get a JPEG viewer. ;) I can't help with that, I don't know much about Mac-computers and their software. ReplyTo : Kelly ReplyFrom: Timothy Subject : Multi generation ship >Of course instead of a 5 year (ship time) trip, your talking about centuries >to thousands of years, and a crew 10-1000 times larger, and a proportianatly >larger ship, etc... You might make an energy savings, but it wouldn't be as >dramatic as you might expect. Hmm, yes you're right when using these numbers. But remember, my approach was VERY rough. In fact each human needs about 1.3E7 joules per day (=4.7E9 Joules per year). In the previous calculation I assumed Earth's biosphere balance. Which seems to be quite inefficient if it was designed only to keep people alive. Assuming Earth's biosphere and 100 square metres per person (which may be less) I calculated that every person used 4.4E14 Joule per year. So this means an efficiency of 0.001 % (My guess is that we could do far better that that.) >Building things takes skills, tools, and materials, as well as power. Of >course we didn't give the ship tremendous power reserves. The power needed to build the ship can probably be neglected with respect to the energy needed for the 1000 year trip. Materials should be mined at those asteroids. After the ship is build these mining-plant could be sold for much money if necessary. Tools could be made there or on Earth where ever it is cheapest. About the skills, I'm not sure. I guess working in space has to be common before we can build any interstellar ship. --=====================_816470556==_ Content-Type: application/mac-binhex40; name="RAY.GIF" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="RAY.GIF" (This file must be converted with BinHex 4.0) :"e*"@5j(58B!3NP13@eNEh-!!!!!",-!!!!!lXP(58Bi0f(L!+X!J!!!!!!!rrr r,!!!!!$L!+X!!!,rM)qTbqd2SjbdfSZchVcl$iEL5*EQLCi!N!#flJZ(DdcApSh RqSkaFr",V&L+f6!)p"f&4q,"Z14*TmdSBVLSBJhDB2IkRBTcA56A#8ClNErYfHP 1MZHf0Y%X,k,e$IbD$NKf0mKAb)$hY*Hh'0J)BhGQ#1D!'-Q8k*Mj!XPSHGQRQ+M fTeQU3XKBpANB+YSdD4Sl`XRf#X[kS(SVbp[Vq`XF,$`-A%QXBA`XNLc-$!V5UY` TlB`,,Cd9M9e46D'pDCYQ&ICQjBNC'9lH[4lARKfU*Hk1,+ME[PAQkZi(4di13Gm qH[55h*2Ri4X+IYSiLGS&F9%F1h[@(+a)-BdNG2p[)RC3D-*CQ(iHTj'#Kp"J1*) Q&5%b8f[@$@B#@Ck,H&*2bS!Z8H'-Kl%N"j!!**+aR"JcQb&Ml1"TE,RaCY*PG@$ k4#H3!#168Ij!%8@jXPC2TEZDFUYkFD35JZT8KU@d-pGDUrIH344EX"jDKJLVYA8 Vm9YGRMc0fGADkHp3@@DTI2AeH%FEaT&j9HCaZH-fbCBR$0j-CSjK,R,cJXBXCM" 3dkG61kilYh&VcTMlXTkY+A24Z+0aPp)Y)qY@i,jV%%mSh&Ta4mFr*PpHc&jFk,q DEbKMR6VY[CqepmVHilRhld*FB!FrIQEj&)08b8j2jFT#I`IK3jBIFVLjprC$Nrr H$9Bmr6ALdRp8H480I`1bTiD"ehbd)#!0!J%0H1K&@1&rf9di$BD5q8$K8"`qiD& S)&l(B)QT'5AA*LSkeNFZ00$dSRNahQLFM$A@m3`1$Hh)BaDei3LNM9(j9d54,LC TST!!5V,(T)412PP#8-a&5D9-*2j@8CCDGRMPPPjq!%GeCBkC%*LaR)PQ250@&@+ E'5JSjCX[dKN)RPRD1D5FCmh'ji*kCK,SJ)-b9bKm*lCfU)Thi,DSRiFi#0UMNNk CU!k@AVTHR+HabDQRQ5)j+U5GISSITed#HUUF"E+DUTq[-SSPQJ,#'ZZBVC5UAUe l6STVUdmQD1U8[`*,+l,$re*5V,'AmKUNXT*#Qf1S1LCV,C'9CXYXX0`+Z`fefSN E!lR3QE[NYlk'UkkcQk&E(,`Yb0XXUZf#L`fphVjl,ll+0,UM[L%*r#R"XaJF,X" M+0&[1YXUl#')#+G*iF6%R'JaLL&Q(*fRe'c*F620KY`aYJf6$'($P2+VXXFXUic bBLh(V$(-pIC,XeiflpYZcR1fl$+l-ppmVmmp!'hd"8PhaV1k5rqjXmNi%pdce8j ErHh6hJ$YQpCFI`eff'+26AECCTq0GYTUV`fCef[M#6(ERKdAYp`4`1ffUR6RA54 !8,bNcR4ZBD3BA)$0-e8UKCrl$fmT6HHhi!L'pIJS!j,9E3TGQKRd81FhHFlj1@j %ERQ2PL4Zk&L*GE8+Q$CCGARTNb-PHRI8(@8P9)MYRT1D4mC1H%q,abZ@9+bAYD[ UUmpY1Q+p#89mjDXJ*IY@6bd[!92+lrllFRqMMTGKUZd%HrB*2YH2lGihP2YKmqM %81XYcKjrJ2eK2Jcqrr)0S0hqr`r!!!T`J!3XS!%2Q,B#Y!!lVcd!!!: --=====================_816470556==_-- From popserver Thu Nov 16 03:44:50 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3614" "Wed" "15" "November" "1995" "22:25:06" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "96" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA16952; Wed, 15 Nov 95 19:25:12 PST Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA11785; Wed, 15 Nov 1995 22:25:06 -0500 Message-Id: <951115222503_23751735@emout05.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 816493287.054 From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, david@interworld.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 22:25:06 -0500 ReplyTo : Keving ReplyFrom: Timothy Subject : The bathtub is flowing over (EUREKA) >I HAVE SOLVED THE PROBLEM OF SLOWING DOWN!!!! >> First convince me... then celebrate... >First, there is _no_ way to reduce the momentum imparted by the photons. >However, we _can_ change the _direction_ of the thrust. >> NO and yes, you cannot change the initial size and direction of the photon >> thrust, but you can (of course) choose the direction of the thrust when transmitting a photon. >> In better words: >> You should see the reflection of a photon as two steps, independant of each >> other. The first step is receiving the photon where >> momenum to your mirror is added >> in the same direction as the photon CAME FROM. >> The second step is transmitting(reflecting) the photon, hereby is the >> momentum of the photon added in the opposite direction the photon GOES TO. >> ----- Can't follow your argument, and the deleated graph seemed countradictory. I thing the fundemental part of kevins argument is correct. That the thrust vector on a photon sail is tangential to the surface of reflection, and the amount is related to the angle of incidence of reflection. (thats one of the standard solar sailing tricks.) If of course you absorb the photons in a rectena array the result is a bit less clear, but presumably you could reflect the energy off the sail to converters, at an angle that would cut down the forward thrust. The price of this would be a lot of extra thrust, and stress, on the guy wires. >> You tried to trick the photons and thereby violated the preservation of >> momentum: If you receive an amount of photons, all their momentum is >> transferred to you. Yes, but if it is transfered at an angle; part the momentum will be disapated in the structure, rather than acting to accelerate the ship. >> Once more, whatever ingenious construction you can think of, to receive a >> certain amount of photons and use their energy, you ALWAYS get ALL their >> momentum in the same direction as they went to. Define went to? ReplyTo : Kelly ReplyFrom: Timothy Subject : Drawings >>> (Tip: jpeg images would be about 4 times smaller, so would >>> mean a less bytes with almost the same image quality) > >Now if Rick would get a JPEG viewer. ;) >> I can't help with that, I don't know much about >> Mac-computers and their software. Huh?? Well as a hint you generally need to have a copy before you can use it. ReplyTo : Kelly ReplyFrom: Timothy Subject : Multi generation ship ----- >Building things takes skills, tools, and materials, as well as power. Of >course we didn't give the ship tremendous power reserves. >> The power needed to build the ship can probably be >> neglected with respect to the energy needed for the >> 1000 year trip. Materials should be mined at those >> asteroids. I wasn't talking about the energy to build the ship. I was talking about the energy, resources, and equipment needed to continually rebuild it in flight. Equipment has a life span too, and none if it will function for a thousand years. The ship will have to not only be equiped with its own internal ship yard, but with all the manufacturing facilities needed to build every part, and every tool in the complete ship. Then you have to bring along all the raw materials and fuel they'll need for the trip. Then you have to staff it with all the people with all the specialties needed to do all of that. The ship would need a degree of selfsuficency that no country, much less industrial country, on Earth has had in generations. Kelly From popserver Thu Nov 16 03:44:53 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2105" "Wed" "15" "November" "1995" "22:25:20" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "48" "Re: EUREKA!!!!!!!!!! (ha ha ha ha ha ha) >:-)" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA17002; Wed, 15 Nov 95 19:26:13 PST Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA28195; Wed, 15 Nov 1995 22:25:20 -0500 Message-Id: <951115222515_23751943@mail04.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 816493287.055 From: KellySt@aol.com To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org Cc: rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, david@interworld.com Subject: Re: EUREKA!!!!!!!!!! (ha ha ha ha ha ha) >:-) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 22:25:20 -0500 VERY NICE KEVIN!!! You delt with the structural and thrust problems at once! I'll call you later, but wanted to send a couple of ideas right away. I still have questions about momentum transfer vs power absorbsion. This neat conversion of absorbed power and momentum bothers me. I would think that converting the power would use up the energy that would generate the thrust. Maybe I'm confused? If the back side of the sail/collector was mirrored, and the frount side of the inner sail elements had the rectennas. Then durring the accel phase all sail elements can be trimed to reflect almost all the power straight back at Sol for max thrust. (Note you'll need a slight outward thrust to hold the sails out to the sides.) Durring the decel phase. The outer sails are trimed to reflect their energy inward toward frount of the inner sails. The inner sails are trimed to reflect the energy hiting their back inward toward other sails or dumping it. But this foward and outward thrust, serves to support them against backward and inward thrurst from the energy pouring inward and back from the outer sails onto the frount of the inner sails. The frount of the inner sails have the rectenna arrays. Which absorb and convert the microwaves. Good news. The sails have max reflectivity durring accel phase. Only the inner sail array needs the more complecated rectenna and power conversion/transmition/cooling equipment. (The outer segments are just wire mesh.) So servicing and costs can be minimized. Bad news The expensive power converters are going to be face first into the inter stellar medium, and they are going to be operating at much higher power densities. Cooling is going to be much harder. Weird thought. Am I right that microwaves can impart thier momentum on ions directly? Could you channel the power via waveguides, and feed the reaction mass into the power stream and get it to accelerate the plasma directly? I can't remenber it clearly, but I think their is some such mechanism. If so, you could avoid the heating problems of the power conversion step. Kelly From popserver Fri Nov 17 00:17:49 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5329" "Thu" "16" "November" "1995" "22:37:32" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "116" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA22866; Thu, 16 Nov 95 13:37:29 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA23535 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 16 Nov 1995 22:37:11 +0100 Message-Id: <199511162137.AA23535@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 816567351.020 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 22:37:32 +0100 ReplyTo : Kelly ReplyFrom: Timothy Subject : The bathtub is flowing over (EUREKA) >>I HAVE SOLVED THE PROBLEM OF SLOWING DOWN!!!! > >>> First convince me... then celebrate... > >>First, there is _no_ way to reduce the momentum imparted by the photons. >>However, we _can_ change the _direction_ of the thrust. > >>> NO and yes, you cannot change the initial size and direction of the photon >>> thrust, but you can (of course) choose the direction of the thrust when >transmitting a photon. > >>> In better words: >>> You should see the reflection of a photon as two steps, independant of >each >>> other. The first step is receiving the photon where >>> momenum to your mirror is added >>> in the same direction as the photon CAME FROM. >>> The second step is transmitting(reflecting) the photon, hereby is the >>> momentum of the photon added in the opposite direction the photon GOES TO. >>> ----- > >Can't follow your argument, and the deleated graph seemed countradictory. I >thing the fundemental part of kevins argument is correct. That the thrust >vector on a photon sail is tangential to the surface of reflection, and the >amount is related to the angle of incidence of reflection. (thats one of the >standard solar sailing tricks.) Agreed, completely. But if you want to use all the photon's energy you have to stop them. Stopping them makes the ship go forward. Kevin tried to change the direction of the photons in a way that stopping them would not add to forward but sideward momentum. Doing the same thing for the other sideward momentum cancelled out the movement to either side. But as soon as you change the direction of a photon a little you get a small forward thrust. But if you want to change the direction so much to use Kevin's trick, then you have the same forward thrust as you would have if you captured the photons immediately. I referred to Kevin's trick. I'm still not completely sure if I understand Kevin's idea correctly since I don't know how and where he want to tap the photons' energy. >If of course you absorb the photons in a rectena array the result is a bit >less clear, but presumably you could reflect the energy off the sail to >converters, at an angle that would cut down the forward thrust. The price of >this would be a lot of extra thrust, and stress, on the guy wires. Reflecting the photons to another direction adds some forward momentum to the ship. And as soon as you stop the photons in the converters, you transfer the rest of the forward momentum of the photons! >>> You tried to trick the photons and thereby violated the preservation of >>> momentum: If you receive an amount of photons, all their momentum is >>> transferred to you. > >Yes, but if it is transfered at an angle; part the momentum will be disapated >in the structure, rather than acting to accelerate the ship. In that preservation also the direction is mentioned. So if before the absorption you have a forward momentum, than that momentum should be there after the absorption still in forward direction only now transferred to the ship. >>> Once more, whatever ingenious construction you can think of, to receive a >>> certain amount of photons and use their energy, you ALWAYS get ALL their >>> momentum in the same direction as they went to. > >Define went to? Went to = The direction of the photons before they encountered the Asimov. ReplyTo : Kelly ReplyFrom: Timothy Subject : Drawings >Huh?? Well as a hint you generally need to have a copy before you can use >it. I use an IBM-compatible computer and have programs to convert many image-formats. I assumed that for Mac computers there would be similar programs. ReplyTo : Kelly ReplyFrom: Timothy Subject : Multi generation ship >The ship would need a degree of selfsuficency that no country, much less >industrial country, on Earth has had in generations. Ah now I see what you mean. The industry on the ship would be completely different than that on Earth. The different production lines should be very generalized and not specialized. This means that one line can do all kinds of synthetic material moldings. Probably this results in a less efficient line. Not less efficient with energy but with time. My guess is that time is not the most important factor here. Another important thing would be automation of the production process. A lot of equipment would be made many times again, so then automation would ease the job. About specialties, of course it would be easier if we had specialist for everything but one person in a certain field can do a lot if he/she has the right information available. Again that would mean less efficient with time. But don't forget, on Earth lots of energy and manpower is used to innovate. The thing that we are concerned most about, is to keep what we have. Rebuilding what one has is a lot easier than creating new things. To keep up with Earth's technology we could simply copy what they had created. Furthermore almost all equipment should be recycled, a lot of energy can be spared if the equipment is designed for easy recycling. So this will and should reduce the need for raw materials a lot. Maybe we can recycle some of the energy if we enclose the ship with a kind of thermos flask and use heat exchangers to re-use some of that energy. From popserver Sun Nov 19 22:21:24 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["2933" "Sun" "19" "November" "1995" "16:14:37" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" "" "65" "Re: EUREKA!!!!!!!!!! (ha ha ha ha ha ha) >:-)" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA12227; Sun, 19 Nov 95 14:13:51 PST Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Sun, 19 Nov 95 16:14:37 -0600 In-Reply-To: <951115222515_23751943@mail04.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 816819575.000 From: Kevin C Houston To: KellySt@aol.com Cc: stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, david@interworld.com Subject: Re: EUREKA!!!!!!!!!! (ha ha ha ha ha ha) >:-) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 1995 16:14:37 -0600 (CST) On Wed, 15 Nov 1995 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > I still have questions about momentum transfer vs power absorbsion. This > neat conversion of absorbed power and momentum bothers me. I would think > that converting the power would use up the energy that would generate the > thrust. Maybe I'm confused? > Not at all, if you reflect, you get twice the momentum that you'd get if you absorbed. so there is no violation of energy conservation. > > > If the back side of the sail/collector was mirrored, and the frount side of > the inner sail elements had the rectennas. Then durring the accel phase > all sail elements can be trimed to reflect almost all the power straight > back at Sol for max thrust. (Note you'll need a slight outward thrust to > hold the sails out to the sides.) > > Durring the decel phase. The outer sails are trimed to reflect their > energy inward toward frount of the inner sails. The inner sails are trimed > to reflect the energy hiting their back inward toward other sails or > dumping it. But this foward and outward thrust, serves to support them > against backward and inward thrurst from the energy pouring inward and > back from the outer sails onto the frount of the inner sails. The frount > of the inner sails have the rectenna arrays. Which absorb and convert the > microwaves. > > Good news. > The sails have max reflectivity durring accel phase. > > Only the inner sail array needs the more complecated rectenna and power > conversion/transmition/cooling equipment. (The outer segments are just > wire mesh.) So servicing and costs can be minimized. > > Bad news > The expensive power converters are going to be face first into the inter > stellar medium, and they are going to be operating at much higher power > densities. Cooling is going to be much harder. > 1) about power converters (schottsky diodes) being face first into the "wind" we are going to need a lot of tension wires to keep the antenna from blowing apart, so if they were on the front, they would effectivly shield the diodes. 2) about cooling, angling the antennas requires more surface area, allowing for _smaller_ power densities, and more surface to radiate the heat. > > Weird thought. Am I right that microwaves can impart thier momentum on > ions directly? Could you channel the power via waveguides, and feed the > reaction mass into the power stream and get it to accelerate the plasma > directly? I can't remenber it clearly, but I think their is some such > mechanism. If so, you could avoid the heating problems of the power > conversion step. Agreed, this should be looked into. Not sure if this is possible with microwaves, I'm having difficulty seeing how the microwaves could be reflected into the reaction chamber without the inner sail elements getting in the way of the outer ones. but if it could be made to work, it would solve the heat problem neatly. From popserver Mon Nov 20 10:11:18 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3499" "Mon" "20" "November" "1995" "02:08:27" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "73" "Re: EUREKA!!!!!!!!!! (ha ha ha ha ha ha) >:-)" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA11205; Mon, 20 Nov 95 02:06:45 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id CAA01303; Mon, 20 Nov 1995 02:08:27 -0800 Message-Id: <199511201008.CAA01303@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: References: <951115222515_23751943@mail04.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 816862166.000 From: Steve VanDevender To: Kevin C Houston Cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, david@interworld.com Subject: Re: EUREKA!!!!!!!!!! (ha ha ha ha ha ha) >:-) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 02:08:27 -0800 Kevin C. Houston writes: > On Wed, 15 Nov 1995 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > > > I still have questions about momentum transfer vs power absorbsion. This > > neat conversion of absorbed power and momentum bothers me. I would think > > that converting the power would use up the energy that would generate the > > thrust. Maybe I'm confused? > > > > Not at all, if you reflect, you get twice the momentum that you'd get if > you absorbed. so there is no violation of energy conservation. This is not strictly true. In fact, I've been quite dubious of Kevin's claim that his configuration of solar sails would really produce deceleration. In fact, I believe that you can't use a static sail (that is, one permanently attached to the spacecraft) to decelerate, as to produce deceleration the reflected photon must increase in momentum to compensate for the spacecraft decreasing in momentum; the static sail is tied to the spacecraft so it cannot change its momentum separately from the spacecraft. The previously-mentioned "Dragonfly" sail (from Robert L. Forward's _Flight of the Dragonfly_) accomplishes deceleration by splitting the sail into a retro-reflecting portion that focuses energy back to the remaining portion of the sail attached to the spacecraft; in this case the retro-reflecting sail increases in momentum to compensate for the spacecraft's decrease in momentum, and thereby ends up carrying all of the momentum from the beamed power by the time the spacecraft has come to "rest". Consider a photon with momenergy [ p, p, 0 ] (that is, energy p, momentum p in the x direction, no momentum in the y direction), incident on a mirror with initial momenergy [ m, 0, 0 ] tilted at an angle theta, such that when theta = 0 the mirror reflects the photon straight back along its original path, and positive theta means counterclockwise rotation of the mirror. After reflection, the photon has momenergy [ p, -p * cos(2 * theta), -p * sin(2 * theta) ], and to conserve momenergy the mirror must then have momenergy [ m, p * (1 + cos(2 * theta)), p * sin(2 * theta) ]. (the total system momenergy remains [ m + p, p, 0 ]). You'll note that the expression (1 + cos(2 * theta)) is always greater than or equal to 0. In other words, the x-component of the mirror's momentum after reflection is always forward, or at best nil. So you can steer by tilting the sail, but you can't slow down. If you use multiple reflections, then you can analyze the behavior simply by considering the final photon momentum after the reflections. In the case of a double reflection that leaves the photons travelling in the same direction they originally were (maybe parallel to their original course) then there is _no_ net change in spacecraft momentum. If you change the direction of the photons, then you must _always_ leave them with a smaller x-component of momentum than they originally had, and this results in increased x-momentum for the spacecraft. You may be able to decrease the efficiency of the sails as much as you want, but you will never produce deceleration with multiple-reflection schemes as long as the sails are attached to the spacecraft and therefore tied to the spacecraft's momenergy. A really thorough treatment of multiple reflections would have to consider both the finite speed of light and the finite speed of propagation of changes in velocity through the spacecraft structure; for very high rates of acceleration these would be significant effects. From popserver Mon Nov 20 10:38:53 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4659" "Mon" "20" "November" "1995" "04:35:36" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "93" "Re: EUREKA!!!!!!!!!! (ha ha ha ha ha ha) >:-)" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA11737; Mon, 20 Nov 95 02:34:39 PST Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 20 Nov 95 04:35:36 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199511201008.CAA01303@tzadkiel.efn.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 816863821.000 From: Kevin C Houston To: Steve VanDevender Cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, david@interworld.com Subject: Re: EUREKA!!!!!!!!!! (ha ha ha ha ha ha) >:-) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 04:35:36 -0600 (CST) On Mon, 20 Nov 1995, Steve VanDevender wrote: > Kevin C. Houston writes: > > > On Wed, 15 Nov 1995 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > > > > > I still have questions about momentum transfer vs power absorbsion. This > > > neat conversion of absorbed power and momentum bothers me. I would think > > > that converting the power would use up the energy that would generate the > > > thrust. Maybe I'm confused? > > > > > > > Not at all, if you reflect, you get twice the momentum that you'd get if > > you absorbed. so there is no violation of energy conservation. > > This is not strictly true. In fact, I've been quite dubious of > Kevin's claim that his configuration of solar sails would really > produce deceleration. In fact, I believe that you can't use a > static sail (that is, one permanently attached to the spacecraft) > to decelerate, as to produce deceleration the reflected photon > must increase in momentum to compensate for the spacecraft > decreasing in momentum; the static sail is tied to the spacecraft > so it cannot change its momentum separately from the spacecraft. > The previously-mentioned "Dragonfly" sail (from Robert L. > Forward's _Flight of the Dragonfly_) accomplishes deceleration by > splitting the sail into a retro-reflecting portion that focuses > energy back to the remaining portion of the sail attached to the > spacecraft; in this case the retro-reflecting sail increases in > momentum to compensate for the spacecraft's decrease in momentum, > and thereby ends up carrying all of the momentum from the beamed > power by the time the spacecraft has come to "rest". > > Consider a photon with momenergy [ p, p, 0 ] (that is, energy p, > momentum p in the x direction, no momentum in the y direction), > incident on a mirror with initial momenergy [ m, 0, 0 ] tilted at > an angle theta, such that when theta = 0 the mirror reflects the > photon straight back along its original path, and positive theta > means counterclockwise rotation of the mirror. After reflection, > the photon has momenergy > > [ p, -p * cos(2 * theta), -p * sin(2 * theta) ], > > and to conserve momenergy the mirror must then have momenergy > > [ m, p * (1 + cos(2 * theta)), p * sin(2 * theta) ]. > > (the total system momenergy remains [ m + p, p, 0 ]). > > You'll note that the expression (1 + cos(2 * theta)) is always > greater than or equal to 0. In other words, the x-component of > the mirror's momentum after reflection is always forward, or at > best nil. So you can steer by tilting the sail, but you can't > slow down. > > If you use multiple reflections, then you can analyze the > behavior simply by considering the final photon momentum after > the reflections. > > In the case of a double reflection that leaves the photons > travelling in the same direction they originally were (maybe > parallel to their original course) then there is _no_ net change > in spacecraft momentum. If you change the direction of the > photons, then you must _always_ leave them with a smaller > x-component of momentum than they originally had, and this > results in increased x-momentum for the spacecraft. You may be > able to decrease the efficiency of the sails as much as you want, > but you will never produce deceleration with multiple-reflection > schemes as long as the sails are attached to the spacecraft and > therefore tied to the spacecraft's momenergy. > > A really thorough treatment of multiple reflections would have to > consider both the finite speed of light and the finite speed of > propagation of changes in velocity through the spacecraft > structure; for very high rates of acceleration these would be > significant effects. > I think you have not completely understood my proposal. I am _not_ saying that the ship would slow down by this arrangement of sails, I'm only saying that the foreward momentum of the photons would be dumped into sideways momentum (which would then cancel out due to symetry) the photons would be absorbed and converted to electricity, then used to power a linear accelerator. All this rigamarole is to get around Timothy's valid objection that the foreward momentum of the recieved photons would exceed the momentum of the lineac if the antenna were not tilted. I readily admit that i lack the mathmatical tools to properly analyze this, I was hoping that someone else could do that part. But, The main point of the idea is valid, namely that by breaking up the sail/antenna into many conic sections, the foreward momentum of the absorbed photons can be dumped into the antenna's structure, and not into foreward acceleration of the "Asimov" From popserver Tue Nov 21 22:07:53 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["9782" "Tue" "21" "November" "1995" "06:40:07" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "242" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA24233; Tue, 21 Nov 95 04:39:06 PST Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Tue, 21 Nov 95 06:40:08 -0600 Reply-To: Kevin C Houston In-Reply-To: <199511151422.AA06167@student.utwente.nl> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii X-UIDL: 816991539.006 From: Kevin C Houston Sender: Kevin C Houston To: Timothy van der Linden Cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 06:40:07 -0600 (CST) To: Timothy From: Kevin H. Subject: Various On Wed, 15 Nov 1995, Timothy van der Linden wrote: > Subject : Photon energy > ReplyTo : Timothy > ReplyFrom: Kevin > > >now let's use that energy we absorbed (minus 20% for conversion losses, > >now E= 8 E+18) to accelerate some amount of material to allow us to slow > >down. to find out how much material (per second) we must eject, let's use > >the rocket equation first. the apparent mass Ma (as seen by the crew) of the > >exhaust is g * M /Ve * c where Ve is .9996 and g is 23.34 (10 m/s^2 for > >us, and 13.34 m/s^2 to counteract the photonic thrust) so Ma= 194.71 Kg/sec > >moving at .9996 of c. note that this is only 3.89 Kg out of the tanks so > >thus the rest mass of the exhaust is 3.89 Kg/sec. > > > >Now let's see how much energy it takes to accelerate 3.89 Kg to .9996 of c > >the energy will equal the kinetic energy of accelerating the mass to the > >required speed, plus the energy of the "mass increase" E=Ke + Re > >Ke=1/2 m v^2 = 1/2 *3.89* (.9996*c)^2 = 1.74 E+17 > >Re= m c^2 = (194.71 - 3.89) * c^2 = 1.71 E+19 > > > >total energy required = 1.73 E+19 > > < Some text left out> > > >Okay, Okay, I see your point (finally). so we can speed up, but we can't > >slow down even using beamed power. unless we use a retro reflecting ring > >sail, and that seems like such a waste > > I'm happy to hear this. Unfortunately your conclusion was based on wrong > calculations. I will explain here: > > You used: g * M /Ve * c but that formula is non relativistic. The right > formula would be: g * M /(Ve * c * gamma) > This gives the mass exhaust per second. That mass does not need to be > translated to 'out of the tanks'-mass. But thats what I used, granted I did it in two steps, but multipling the result of g * M / (Ve *C) by SQRT(1-Ve^2/C^2) is the same as your formula > > After that you use a strange and wrong method to calculate the needed energy. > The right formula for kinetic energy would be: E=m c^2 (gamma-1) > (You don't need to create the rest energy, that part is already onboard the > ship in the form of mass) > No, I'm not creating rest energy, I'm creating the relativistic energy. my energy formula (which may well be wrong) was broken into two parts: 1) a non-relativistic KE formula for getting the rest mass up to Ve KE=1/2 m (Ve*C)^2 2) a way to account for apparent mass increase (sorry steve, I know that grates on you, but it don't make sense to me any other way) by using E=mc^2 and may I point out that my answers were within 5% of the "correct" answers. not bad for a first guess. However, I will in the future use: KE=M * C^2 * (gamma - 1) where gamma=1/SQRT(1-Ve^2) Note, in my formulas Ve is expressed as a fraction of C anyway, so I don't have to divide by C^2 > Subject : The bathtub is flowing over (EUREKA) > > > >First, there is _no_ way to reduce the momentum imparted by the photons. > >However, we _can_ change the _direction_ of the thrust. > > NO and yes, you cannot change the initial size and direction of the photon > thrust, but you can (of course) choose the direction of the thrust when > transmitting a photon. > > In better words: > You should see the reflection of a photon as two steps, independant of each > other. > The first step is receiving the photon where momenum to your mirror is added > in the same direction as the photon CAME FROM. > The second step is transmitting(reflecting) the photon, hereby is the > momentum of the photon added in the opposite direction the photon GOES TO. > So if you shoot a photon from the negative x direction to a mirror which is > has 45 degree angle(on the x=y line) it first gets the momentum p in the x > direction and second the momentum p in the y direction. This makes a total > momentum of Sqrt(p^2+p^2)=Sqrt(2)*p in the xy direction. > > ^ > | y > | / | > ______|/ | > / +--- x > / > No, the momentum of absorbing the photon: cos (45) * p and the momentum of transmiting a photon: cos (45) * p adding them together would give you 2 cos(45)*p and since cos (45) = SQRT(2)/2, the total is: (drum roll please) Sqrt(2)*p Which of course is the same result as your formula, but for different reasons. and would not be the same for angles other than 45 Question: If a photon has a waveLENGTH of 21 cm, what's it's waveWIDTH? Hint: It ain't zero. > > > But now how do you capture the photons? You are talking about mirrors (sail) > all the time but not about capture. (I included a GIF-image of how I think > you would do that) No, _you_ keep talking mirrors all the time. I never once talked about reflecting the photons anywhere. BTW, I've never gotten one gif image to work. I can save 'em, and I can get them to my home machine, but when they get there, I get a "Not a vaild GIF file" when I try to display. And that includes a file that Kelly FTP'd me, so I know it's not my mail program. Maybe I'm just a lone IBM'er in a MAC group. any other IBM'ers here? Did you get the GIF's to work? let me know so's I can get working copies please. > I still don't know why you used an angle of 76.6, doing the calculation with > an angle of 85 degrees you need even less energy. Every time I worked out the formulas, (and I just did it with your equation for KE) I ended up with not enough energy if I used an angle of less than 76.6 degrees (photon thrust exceeds engine thrust) and too much left over energy if I used an angle much greater than 76.6 (engine thrust exceeds photon thrust) > You tried to trick the photons and thereby violated the preservation of > momentum: If you receive an amount of photons, all their momentum is > transferred to you. Yes, agreed. I received all of the photons Monmentum, but only cos(76.6) of it is in the direction of ships travel. > Once more, whatever ingenious construction you can think of, to receive a > certain amount of photons and use their energy, you ALWAYS get ALL their > momentum in the same direction as they went to. No, not true. Tilted surfaces receive all the momentum, but at an angle which is normal to backside of the surface. To : All From: Kevin Subject: Revised numbers using Timothy's Kinetic Energy formula: Velocity of exhaust: .99996 C (yes, this has changed also) gamma of exhaust 111.8045 Energy Beamed from Earth 2.08 E+19 Watts Energy after conversion 1.66 E+19 Watts (80% eff) angle of antenna: 76.6 cosine of angle : 0.360702 at this angle and energy, the photons impart a 10 m/s^2 foreward thrust so the ship's engine must impart a 20 m/s^2 backward's thrust. to accomplish this we need an exhaust rest mass of G*M/(Ve*C*gamma) which equals 1.49 Kg/sec out of the tanks getting this up to .99996 C will require M*C^2*(gamma-1) or 1.49E+19 Watts leaving 1.77 E+18 left over. more than enough energy to keep the crew alive. I'm still working on the heat balance, more when I finish To: All From: Kevin Re: Question on diodes (schottsky's) As you no doubt know, conversion from microwaves to elec power is achieved with diodes. I've been assuming that a diode on the antenna but not connected to a circuit is just sitting there, and the antenna will reflect. when the circuit is completed, the diode will convert the microwaves to elec with some heat left over, and the antenna wil absorb. is this correct? Kevin P.S. to Timothy: I can't speak for Steve, but yes, I do actually write these at 2:08 am or whatever time appears on the header. I often stay up late or get up early to write these. and of course, the time you see is the time I sent it, not the time I started, so you can subtract about two days for writing time ;) PPS to All: I heard a couple of good jokes: 1) How do a Mathamatician, a Physist, and an Engineer _prove_ all odd numbers are prime? The Mathamatician says: 3 is prime, 5 is prime, 7 is prime. That's three examples, the rest follows by induction. The Physicist says: 3 is prime, 5 is prime, 7 is prime, 9 is... experimental error, 11 is prime, 13 is prime .... The Engineer says: 3 is prime, 5 is prime, 7 is prime, 9 is close to being prime, and as we get into higher and higher numbers, the difference between the prime and non-prime portions is so small that it can be ignored. And the Technician says: 3 is prime, 5 is prime, 7 is prime, 9 is... Hey Joe, hand me hammer. second joke: The Mathamatician, Physicist, and Engineer were all at a conference (on prime numbers no less) and that night, a fire broke out in each room. The Engineer woke up, saw the fire, grabbed a bucket, and ran into the bathroom. he estimated the size of the fire, rate of spread and available oxygen, and drew that much water plus 10% to cover his errors. He ran back into the bedroom, poured 95% of the water onto the fire, checked that it was out, then poured the rest just to make sure, and went back to bed. The Physicist woke up, saw the fire, grabbed a bucket, and ran into the bathroom. he wrote down a few equations detailing the size of the fire, the rate of spread and the available oxygen, accounted for the ambient temperature and humidity of the air, as well as the heat of combustion of the materials that were burning, calculated the precise amount of water to put out the fire, drew that amount and ran back into the bedroom, poured the water on the fire, checked the results against the predicted results and went back to bed. The Mathamatician woke up, saw the fire, grabbed a bucket, and ran into the bathroom. he turned on the faucet, saw the water coming out. wrote down a few equations, proved a solution existed. and went back to bed. From popserver Tue Nov 21 22:08:52 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4889" "Tue" "21" "November" "1995" "21:31:53" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "131" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA19534; Tue, 21 Nov 95 12:31:28 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA00782 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 21 Nov 1995 21:31:46 +0100 Message-Id: <199511212031.AA00782@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 816991539.036 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 21:31:53 +0100 ReplyFrom: Timothy ReplyTo : Kevin H. Subject : Sail >But thats what I used, granted I did it in two steps, but multipling the >result of g * M / (Ve *C) by SQRT(1-Ve^2/C^2) is the same as your formula Yes agreed, somehow I missed that. I derived the formula using relativistics from the start. It can be dangerous to use non-relativistic formulas and later subtitute relativistic ones! >However, I will in the future use: >KE=M * C^2 * (gamma - 1) >where >gamma=1/SQRT(1-Ve^2) Great, but I think Steve does not like them... :) >No, the momentum of absorbing the photon: cos (45) * p >and the momentum of transmiting a photon: cos (45) * p > >adding them together would give you 2 cos(45)*p >and since cos (45) = SQRT(2)/2, the total is: (drum roll please) > >Sqrt(2)*p > >Which of course is the same result as your formula, but for different >reasons. and would not be the same for angles other than 45 OK, let me rewrite this and tell me if you agree: incoming outgoing ray ray \ / \ / \ / a (\/ ------------------- mirror (sail?) || || \/ resulting momentum The ray reflects at an angle a, this gives the mirror a momentum of 2*p*SIN(a) where p the momentum of the incoming and outgoing photon (this assumes the mirror does not move). The (kinetic) energy gain of the mirror in this proces is 2*p*c*SIN(a) the other part of the energy of the photon is still in the outgoing ray. >Question: If a photon has a waveLENGTH of 21 cm, what's it's waveWIDTH? > >Hint: It ain't zero. waveWIDTH ? I've never heard of this, please explain this new phenomenon if relevant. >> But now how do you capture the photons? You are talking about mirrors (sail) >> all the time but not about capture. (I included a GIF-image of how I think >> you would do that) >No, _you_ keep talking mirrors all the time. I never once talked about >reflecting the photons anywhere. Then where is the conical section sail used for if it does not reflect? >BTW, I've never gotten one gif image to work. I can save 'em, and I can >get them to my home machine, but when they get there, I get a "Not a >vaild GIF file" when I try to display. And that includes a file that >Kelly FTP'd me, so I know it's not my mail program. Maybe I'm just a lone >IBM'er in a MAC group. any other IBM'ers here? Did you get the GIF's to >work? let me know so's I can get working copies please. It was a 2 color (1 bit) GIF image created with CorelDraw. Maybe that 1 bit thing is why it did not work. What image viewer do you use?. Anyway, I will put it on the web, use your web browser with the next URL: http://rugth10.th.rug.nl/~linden/ray.gif >> You tried to trick the photons and thereby violated the preservation of >> momentum: If you receive an amount of photons, all their momentum is >> transferred to you. > >Yes, agreed. I received all of the photons Monmentum, but only cos(76.6) >of it is in the direction of ships travel. I still think you forgot something, but also I still don't know how and where you receive the momentum. I think I don't understand the explaination in the first letter you wrote about this. >> Once more, whatever ingenious construction you can think of, to receive a >> certain amount of photons and use their energy, you ALWAYS get ALL their >> momentum in the same direction as they went to. > >No, not true. Tilted surfaces receive all the momentum, but at an angle >which is normal to backside of the surface. Ah, do I get it right if I think you mean that the sail absorbs the photons? And that you think that if the photons are absorbed at an angle the forward momentum is less than if the photons are absorbed perpendicular? If these last guesses are wrong please answer the lines above the last quotes. ReplyTo : Kevin ReplyFrom: Tim Subject : Question on diodes (schottsky's) >As you no doubt know, conversion from microwaves to elec power is >achieved with diodes. I only have a fague idea of how this works. A Skottky diode is just a fast diode, right? First of all do we really need direct current or can we make an alternating current work also? If you really create a direct current, how do you complete the current loop so that the antenna does not become positive or negative loaded. >I've been assuming that a diode on the antenna but >not connected to a circuit is just sitting there, and the antenna will >reflect. That's why I didn't get it the first time I guess. >When the circuit is completed, the diode will convert the >microwaves to elec with some heat left over, and the antenna wil absorb. >is this correct? When and why is the circuit completed? I know some things about electronics but how to use antennas to make a direct current from a wave. If someone is able to explain in an other way, I would be very happy. From popserver Wed Nov 22 01:11:49 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["4528" "Tue" "21" "November" "1995" "19:05:38" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" "" "131" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA07314; Tue, 21 Nov 95 17:04:33 PST Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Tue, 21 Nov 95 19:05:38 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199511212031.AA00782@student.utwente.nl> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 817002585.000 From: Kevin C Houston To: Timothy van der Linden Cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 19:05:38 -0600 (CST) To: Timothy From: Kevin > > >However, I will in the future use: > >KE=M * C^2 * (gamma - 1) > >where > >gamma=1/SQRT(1-Ve^2) > > Great, but I think Steve does not like them... :) arrgghh! will you two make up your mind! either figure it out, consult a prof. or a book or something. and when you do get it right, please tell me and I'll use that method. > > > >No, the momentum of absorbing the photon: cos (45) * p > >and the momentum of transmiting a photon: cos (45) * p > > > >adding them together would give you 2 cos(45)*p > >and since cos (45) = SQRT(2)/2, the total is: (drum roll please) > > > >Sqrt(2)*p > > > >Which of course is the same result as your formula, but for different > >reasons. and would not be the same for angles other than 45 > > OK, let me rewrite this and tell me if you agree: > > incoming outgoing > ray ray > \ / > \ / > \ / > a (\/ > ------------------- mirror (sail?) > || > || > \/ > resulting momentum > > The ray reflects at an angle a, this gives the mirror a momentum of > 2*p*SIN(a) where p the momentum of the incoming and outgoing photon (this > assumes the mirror does not move). > The (kinetic) energy gain of the mirror in this proces is 2*p*c*SIN(a) the > other part of the energy of the photon is still in the outgoing ray. > Okay, I see, it does give the same result for angles other than 45 degrees. but it's cos not sin. and now your drawing shows just what I'm saying... if the incoming ray (in your drawing) is from Sol, then the resulting momentum would not be in the direction of T.C. > >Question: If a photon has a waveLENGTH of 21 cm, what's it's waveWIDTH? > > > >Hint: It ain't zero. > > waveWIDTH ? I've never heard of this, please explain this new phenomenon if > relevant. > Not new at all, tbhe width of a EM wave is the same as it's length. That's why an absorbed photon gives a momentum normal to the absorbing surface. > >> But now how do you capture the photons? You are talking about mirrors (sail) > >> all the time but not about capture. (I included a GIF-image of how I think > >> you would do that) > > >No, _you_ keep talking mirrors all the time. I never once talked about > >reflecting the photons anywhere. > > Then where is the conical section sail used for if it does not reflect? > It reflects during the accel portion of the trip. During decell phase, the conical section is an antenna. and it absorbs. > >Yes, agreed. I received all of the photons Monmentum, but only cos(76.6) > >of it is in the direction of ships travel. > > I still think you forgot something, but also I still don't know how and > where you receive the momentum. I think I don't understand the explaination > in the first letter you wrote about this. > > Tilted surfaces receive all the momentum, but at an angle > >which is normal to backside of the surface. > > Ah, do I get it right if I think you mean that the sail absorbs the photons? > And that you think that if the photons are absorbed at an angle the forward > momentum is less than if the photons are absorbed perpendicular? Yes, That seems right. Let me try again. y (T.C.) ^ | | +---> x Note: the "real" thrust should be normal to the | surface, ascii graphics prevents this | (abs) means absorbed V -y (Sol) Exhaust /\ real +y-component || +y-component thrust | || | real \ | / / |~~| \ \ | /thrust \|/ / | | \ \|/ -x <-----/^(abs) / | C| \ (abs)^\------> +x component / | /a) | o| \ | \ component | | r| | | | e| | incoming incoming photon photon Also note, I've omitted cabling across the T.C. side and Soll side of the sail. This cabling mechanically transmitts the force from one side of the sail to the other. > > I only have a fague idea of how this works. A Skottky diode is just a fast ^^^^^ I'm not trying to flame you Tim, I think you meant "vague" and since you're not sure either, Let's wait to hear from someone who is. Kevin From popserver Wed Nov 22 01:32:02 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2706" "Tue" "21" "November" "1995" "17:28:52" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "73" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA08707; Tue, 21 Nov 95 17:26:54 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id RAA14622; Tue, 21 Nov 1995 17:28:52 -0800 Message-Id: <199511220128.RAA14622@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: References: <199511212031.AA00782@student.utwente.nl> X-UIDL: 817003798.000 From: Steve VanDevender To: Kevin C Houston Cc: Timothy van der Linden , KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 17:28:52 -0800 Kevin C. Houston writes: > To: Timothy > From: Kevin > > >However, I will in the future use: > > >KE=M * C^2 * (gamma - 1) > > >where > > >gamma=1/SQRT(1-Ve^2) > > > > Great, but I think Steve does not like them... :) > > arrgghh! will you two make up your mind! either figure it out, consult > a prof. or a book or something. and when you do get it right, please > tell me and I'll use that method. I say that "relativistic mass increase" is a misnomer and that you are better off treating mass as invariant. > > OK, let me rewrite this and tell me if you agree: > > > > incoming outgoing > > ray ray > > \ / > > \ / > > \ / > > a (\/ > > ------------------- mirror (sail?) > > || > > || > > \/ > > resulting momentum > > > > The ray reflects at an angle a, this gives the mirror a momentum of > > 2*p*SIN(a) where p the momentum of the incoming and outgoing photon (this > > assumes the mirror does not move). > > The (kinetic) energy gain of the mirror in this proces is 2*p*c*SIN(a) the > > other part of the energy of the photon is still in the outgoing ray. > > Okay, I see, it does give the same result for angles other than 45 degrees. > but it's cos not sin. Timothy uses a different convention for the angle than I did. His math is correct using his convention. I was measuring a relative to normal of the mirror plane rather than relative to the surface. > Not new at all, tbhe width of a EM wave is the same as it's length. Huh? Why is this even relevant? > That's why an absorbed photon gives a momentum normal to the absorbing > surface. BZZZT! Thank you for playing. A reflected photon transfers momentum to a reflector normal to the reflecting surface. An absorbed photon transfers momentum in the direction and magnitude of the the photon's original momentum. This is the only consistent way to preserve conservation of momentum in both cases. Fundamental principle of relativistic mechanics: The momenergy (vector quantity of energy and momentum of a system) is conserved within the system through all interactions of the system components. If an absorbed photon only transferred momentum normal to the surface of the absorber, then the final momentum total for the system (photon and absorber) would _decrease_. This can't be true. You can't even weasel out of it by saying the momentum goes into extra heat or energy or something; momentum and energy are tallied in separate components. The photon energy goes into raising the heat of the absorber. The momentum goes into changing the velocity of the absorber. From popserver Wed Nov 22 20:46:56 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["2976" "Wed" "22" "November" "1995" "18:18:59" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" "<199511221718.AA11651@student.utwente.nl>" "81" "Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA19266; Wed, 22 Nov 95 09:17:30 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA11651 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 22 Nov 1995 18:18:49 +0100 Message-Id: <199511221718.AA11651@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 817073086.001 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Engineering Newsletter Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 18:18:59 +0100 ReplyTo : Steve and Kevin ReplyFrom: Timothy >I say that "relativistic mass increase" is a misnomer and that >you are better off treating mass as invariant. Both methods are valid to use. The difference is more a physical matter than a mathematical. I was used to working with the "wrong" formulas and Steve was used working with the "right" formulas. The so called "wrong" formulas look a bit more like the classic formulas so they may be easier to understand. Both methods are being taught at universities and both are valid. I've always looked at is as follows: When you move faster and faster, part of the energy is transformed into mass, the other part is used to get the extra momentum. Now I only wonder, does such a fast moving particle excert greater gravitation on a non-moving observer? Steve if the answer is yes, how do you explain that not using "relativistic mass increase"? >Timothy uses a different convention for the angle than I did. >His math is correct using his convention. I was measuring a >relative to normal of the mirror plane rather than relative to >the surface. Yeps, it seems I'm a bit odd, doing that. >A reflected photon transfers momentum to a reflector normal to >the reflecting surface. An absorbed photon transfers momentum in >the direction and magnitude of the the photon's original >momentum. This is the only consistent way to preserve >conservation of momentum in both cases. Yes, this is what I tried to explain from the start, but due to misunderstandings I was not able to get to the point earlier. >Fundamental principle of relativistic mechanics: The momenergy >(vector quantity of energy and momentum of a system) is conserved >within the system through all interactions of the system >components. Or as I wrote earlier: Once more, whatever ingenious construction you can think of, to receive a certain amount of photons and use their energy, you ALWAYS get ALL their momentum in the same direction as they went to. ReplyTo : Kevin ReplyFrom: Timothy Here are some answers to the remaining part of your letter: >> Ah, do I get it right if I think you mean that the sail absorbs the photons? >> And that you think that if the photons are absorbed at an angle the forward >> momentum is less than if the photons are absorbed perpendicular? > >Yes, That seems right. Let me try again. So I finally understand... (Now I wonder how you turn a perfectly reflecting sail in an perfect absorber) >> I only have a fague idea of how this works. A Skottky diode is just a fast > ^^^^^ >I'm not trying to flame you Tim, I think you meant "vague" >and since you're not sure either, Let's wait to hear from someone who is. I don't mind people telling me how to write better English. Since it is not my native language I'm almost certain to be doomed to make mistakes. To: Ric Hedman Writing long mails is OK, but to write 4 lines and quote the other 250 lines seems a bit too much. Timothy From popserver Sat Nov 25 06:44:05 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["5191" "Fri" "24" "November" "1995" "21:05:06" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" "<951124210503_115665323@emout04.mail.aol.com>" "121" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA18135; Fri, 24 Nov 95 18:05:09 PST Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA07186; Fri, 24 Nov 1995 21:05:06 -0500 Message-Id: <951124210503_115665323@emout04.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 817281638.011 From: KellySt@aol.com To: stevev@efn.org, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, david@interworld.com, MLEN3097@mercury.gc.peachnet.edu Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 21:05:06 -0500 >> A reflected photon transfers momentum to a reflector normal to >> the reflecting surface. An absorbed photon transfers >> momentum in the direction and magnitude of the the >> photon's original momentum. This is the only consistent >> way to preserve conservation of momentum in both cases. --- >> If an absorbed photon only transferred momentum normal >> to the surface of the absorber, then the final momentum >> total for the system (photon and absorber) would >> _decrease_. This can't be true. You can't even weasel >> out of it by saying the momentum goes into extra heat >> or energy or something; momentum and energy >> are tallied in separate components. The photon energy >> goes into raising the heat of the absorber. The momentum >> goes into changing the velocity of the absorber. The papers I've seen on on solar sails seem to disagree with you. RThey propose angling the sial to alter the thrust vector. Which would be impossible if the momenum transfer was always in the direction of the photons origional vector. Come to think of it all solar sailing would be impossible, since the purpose is alway to add or subtract velocity perpendicular to the solar light vector. Also it would be rather strange given thatthe photon has changed its course and mometum vector to one crossing the ship and beam vectors. Since its new course has an added lateral vector, there must have been a coresponding lateral vector componenect in the reflection of the sail. I have a lot of problem bying the idea that the light bouncing off a sail doesn't lose energy proportional to the kinetic or heat energy gain of the ship. Th power has to be coming from somewhere. > > On Wed, 15 Nov 1995 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > > > > > I still have questions about momentum transfer vs power absorbsion. This > > > neat conversion of absorbed power and momentum bothers me. I would think > > > that converting the power would use up the energy that would generate the > > > thrust. Maybe I'm confused? > > > > > > > Not at all, if you reflect, you get twice the momentum that you'd get if > > you absorbed. so there is no violation of energy conservation. This implies that the power of the beam is half the momentum of the beam. But if the beam is reflected, and gives up twice the momenum, it would have exausted all its power. If its then reflected again, it would lose more. This doesn't work. So: What percentage of the beam energy is lost in a reflection? (If this % is small, the the remainder might be enough to power the ships drive.) KS >> Durring the decel phase. The outer sails are trimed to reflect their KS >> energy inward toward frount of the inner sails. The inner sails are trimed KS >> to reflect the energy hiting their back inward toward other sails or KS >> dumping it. But this foward and outward thrust, serves to support them KS >> against backward and inward thrurst from the energy pouring inward and KS >> back from the outer sails onto the frount of the inner sails. The frount KS >> of the inner sails have the rectenna arrays. Which absorb and convert the KS >> microwaves. > KS >> Good news. KS >> The sails have max reflectivity durring accel phase. > KS >> Only the inner sail array needs the more complecated rectenna and power KS >> conversion/transmition/cooling equipment. (The outer segments are just KS >> wire mesh.) So servicing and costs can be minimized. > KS >> Bad news KS >> The expensive power converters are going to be face first into the inter KS >> stellar medium, and they are going to be operating at much higher power KS >> densities. Cooling is going to be much harder. > >1) about power converters (schottsky diodes) being > face first into the "wind" we are going to need a lot of > tension wires to keep the antenna from blowing apart, so >if they were on the front, they would effectivly shield the diodes. Not unless the wires became a wall. > 2) about cooling, angling the antennas requires more surface > area, allowing for _smaller_ power densities, and more > surface to radiate the heat. But if you reflect the beam inward, it will be concentrated to far higher power levels. The angle and demensions of the antenna isn't important. only the power density on the converter array. > KS >> Weird thought. Am I right that microwaves can impart thier momentum on KS >> ions directly? Could you channel the power via waveguides, and feed the KS >> reaction mass into the power stream and get it to accelerate the plasma KS >> directly? I can't remenber it clearly, but I think their is some such KS >> mechanism. If so, you could avoid the heating problems of the power KS >> conversion step. > Agreed, this should be looked into. Not sure if this is possible with > microwaves, I'm having difficulty seeing how the microwaves could be > reflected into the reaction chamber without the inner sail elements > getting in the way of the outer ones. but if it could be made to work, > it would solve the heat problem neatly. The sails could be kept out of the way. Also the use of waveguides would be usefull for the inner systems. Kelly Starks From popserver Sat Nov 25 07:49:53 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5251" "Fri" "24" "November" "1995" "23:47:54" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "107" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA27800; Fri, 24 Nov 95 23:45:00 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id XAA05957; Fri, 24 Nov 1995 23:47:54 -0800 Message-Id: <199511250747.XAA05957@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <951124210503_115665323@emout04.mail.aol.com> References: <951124210503_115665323@emout04.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 817285608.000 From: Steve VanDevender To: KellySt@aol.com Cc: stevev@efn.org, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, david@interworld.com, MLEN3097@mercury.gc.peachnet.edu Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 23:47:54 -0800 KellySt@aol.com writes: > The papers I've seen on on solar sails seem to disagree with > you. RThey propose angling the sial to alter the thrust > vector. Which would be impossible if the momenum transfer was > always in the direction of the photons origional vector. You don't seem to have read what I wrote, so I'll repeat it below. > >> A reflected photon transfers momentum to a reflector normal to > >> the reflecting surface. This in no way contradicts your understanding. If you tilt a sail, you get a sideways thrust on the sail. The momentum transfer is in the direction against the normal (the perpendicular to the surface) of the sail. However, absorbing a photon is different. In this case conservation of momentum requires that all of the photon's momentum and energy be transferred into the absorbing object. What I was objecting to earlier was Kevin's bald assertion that an absorbed photon adds momentum only relative to the normal of the absorbing surface, apparently because he did not properly analyze the behavior of reflection. You can think of reflection as a two-step process: absorption and re-emission. Momentum is transferred equally (as required by conservation of momentum) in each step. Kevin's mistake seemed to be in his calculation of the quantity of momentum transferred in each step, based on the total momentum transferred between the time before absorption and after re-emission. When a photon is absorbed, all of its energy is transferred into the absorber, and all of its momentum (not just some, as Kevin thought). If the photon was absorbed by a reflector, then it is instantly re-emitted, and the emitted photon has the same magnitude of energy and momentum as the original, but the momentum is in a different direction, and the reflector gets a new momentum component to compensate. The vector sum of the photon momenta before and after the reflection is the negative of the momentum transferred to the reflector, but the momentum transfer in each stage is not just half of this resultant vector. For an instant, the reflector speeds up the same way it would if it was never planning to re-emit the photon; an instant later it is accelerated in the direction opposite the emitted photon. > Come to think of it all solar sailing would be impossible, > since the purpose is alway to add or subtract velocity > perpendicular to the solar light vector. Also it would be > rather strange given thatthe photon has changed its course and > mometum vector to one crossing the ship and beam vectors. > Since its new course has an added lateral vector, there must > have been a coresponding lateral vector componenect in the > reflection of the sail. Light sailing would be useless if you couldn't get velocity components in other directions, say to put yourself in an orbit. Fortunately light sails don't work the way you think they do. In fact, your statement here contradicts your statement above -- either tilted light sails produce sideways thrust or they don't. To get velocity away from the star in the direction of light emitted from the star, aim your light sail to reflect light directly back at the star. To get velocity towards the star, turn your light sail sideways or furl it completely, and let the star's gravity accelerate you. There isn't a way to use the sail to accelerate yourself towards the star any faster than the star's gravity would accelerate you, though. Tilt the sail, and you get an additional velocity component perpendicular to the light emitted from the star. You are right, even though you don't want to believe yourself. > I have a lot of problem bying the idea that the light bouncing > off a sail doesn't lose energy proportional to the kinetic or > heat energy gain of the ship. Th power has to be coming from > somewhere. If the sail is reflective to the incident photon, then the photon doesn't lose energy as a result of reflection. The ship changes velocity because the photon changes direction. That's where the "power" comes from. If you don't buy conservation of momentum and energy, you won't get very far in physics. Here's an interesting thought experiment that I don't remember posting to the Starship Design forum, but that some of you may have seen since I do remember mailing it to somebody. You have two optically flat perfectly reflective mirrors (purchased from the same physics supply store where you get frictionless surfaces and other gedankenexperiment supplies). You also have a very powerful laser capable of emitting a short but extremely bright laser pulse, with sufficient momentum that the pulse can accelerate these mirrors measurably. Set up the two mirrors parallel to each other and facing each other, such that light can reflect between the mirrors indefinitely. Place the laser between them, and have it emit a light pulse aimed to reflect between the two mirrors; remove the laser immediately so that the light does not strike it but instead reflects between the two mirrors. What happens to the mirrors? What happens to the light pulse? An answer describing the limit state of the mirrors and light pulse is acceptable; you don't have to perform a step-by-step analysis of each reflection. From popserver Sat Nov 25 09:05:26 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4055" "Sat" "25" "November" "1995" "01:02:48" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "83" "Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA00273; Sat, 25 Nov 95 00:59:52 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id BAA06131; Sat, 25 Nov 1995 01:02:48 -0800 Message-Id: <199511250902.BAA06131@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <199511221718.AA11651@student.utwente.nl> References: <199511221718.AA11651@student.utwente.nl> X-UIDL: 817290141.000 From: Steve VanDevender To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sat, 25 Nov 1995 01:02:48 -0800 Timothy van der Linden writes: > ReplyTo : Steve and Kevin > ReplyFrom: Timothy > > >I say that "relativistic mass increase" is a misnomer and that > >you are better off treating mass as invariant. > > Both methods are valid to use. The difference is more a physical matter than > a mathematical. I was used to working with the "wrong" formulas and Steve > was used working with the "right" formulas. > The so called "wrong" formulas look a bit more like the classic formulas so > they may be easier to understand. > > Both methods are being taught at universities and both are valid. I think we'd both agree that, for example, p(v) = m * v / sqrt(1 - v^2). What I have learned to be suspicious of is interpreting this as (m/sqrt(1 - v^2)) * v, as if the mass somehow increases with velocity. What I find to be a more intuitive and less misleading interpretation is that mass is invariant (m^2 = E^2 - p^2) but that energy and momentum can increase without limit as the moving object accelerates. When doing more elaborate kinematics problems it's also easier to just keep track of the conserved E and p components, then sort out the resultant masses of the reaction products. Often in math there is more than one way to the right answer. I happen to find that concentrating on conservation of energy and momentum and keeping track of invariant quantities makes it easier to get the right answer and to prove that it's right. If you can do it the "wrong" way, get the right answer, and prove that it's right, then fine. > I've always looked at is as follows: When you move faster and faster, part > of the energy is transformed into mass, the other part is used to get the > extra momentum. I used to look at it this way, but Taylor and Wheeler talked me out of it (see chapter 8 of _Spacetime Physics_ for a lengthy, careful discussion on "Use and Abuse of the Concept of Mass"). The problem here is that relative velocity or acceleration do not cause any fundamental changes in the structure of the moving object. Where is this extra mass? If it's really stashed on the ship somewhere then the people on the ship could measure it. But they don't feel the ship getting heavier or see any increase in the mass of the ship in their frame. You also seem to be falling into the same trap that Kelly did earlier, in not treating energy and momentum as separate components. Most of the counterintuitive results of relativistic kinematics problems come from failing to understand that the conserved quantity in a reaction is a _vector_ quantity, and that the magnitude of that vector is calculated using Lorentz rather than Euclidean geometry. Taylor and Wheeler's wisdom on the subject is that the definition of mass is sqrt(E^2 - p^2); then every observer sees the same mass for the same object, no matter what their relative motion. The quick treatment in many physics texts is that mass is sort of like E, but they do a lot of tapdancing to keep everything consistent. This appears to be motivated by trying explain the famous "E = m * c^2", which turns out to be a lot less profound an observation than some of the other implications of relativistic physics. Taylor and Wheeler look at "E = m * c^2" as a mere matter of unit conversion; it's only really true if you are at rest relative to the mass in question, and they consider the use of Lorentz geometry for spacetime and invariance of spacetime interval as more fundamental and revealing concepts. > Now I only wonder, does such a fast moving particle excert greater > gravitation on a non-moving observer? This I can't answer with certainty. Offhand, I'd say "no." If the particle's mass doesn't change, then how could its gravitation change? > Steve if the answer is yes, how do you explain that not using "relativistic > mass increase"? If, on the other hand, a moving object did exert greater gravitation than a stationary object of the same mass, I'd probably be looking for a relation to a quantity that did change, like the object's total energy. From popserver Sun Nov 26 00:47:54 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["471" "Sat" "25" "November" "1995" "16:30:23" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" "" "19" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA19362; Sat, 25 Nov 95 14:28:51 PST Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Sat, 25 Nov 95 16:30:23 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199511250902.BAA06131@tzadkiel.efn.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 817346679.003 From: Kevin C Houston To: Steve VanDevender Cc: Timothy van der Linden , KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sat, 25 Nov 1995 16:30:23 -0600 (CST) To: all nitpickers From: A nit(wit) who is tired of getting picked on. ;) see my web page http://www.umn.edu/nlhome/m056/hous0042/asimov.html for an idea that is consistant with Steve and Timothy's objections. i.e. reflection transferrs momentum to the normal, and absorbtion transfers momentum in the direction of the photons original vector. Advance billing: it is _still_ possible to cancel the momentum within the structure of the antenna/sail . HA! Kevin From popserver Sun Nov 26 00:48:01 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["5281" "Sun" "26" "November" "1995" "00:51:51" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" "<199511252351.AA19695@student.utwente.nl>" "125" "Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA21932; Sat, 25 Nov 95 15:49:42 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA19695 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 26 Nov 1995 00:51:43 +0100 Message-Id: <199511252351.AA19695@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 817346679.008 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 00:51:51 +0100 ReplyTo : Kevin and Kelly ReplyFrom : Timothy Subject : Infinite energy? > > I have a lot of problem bying the idea that the light bouncing > > off a sail doesn't lose energy proportional to the kinetic or > > heat energy gain of the ship. Th power has to be coming from > > somewhere. > >If the sail is reflective to the incident photon, then the photon >doesn't lose energy as a result of reflection. The ship changes >velocity because the photon changes direction. That's where the >"power" comes from. I think I can't agree with that Steve, when the photon enters the first stage of the reflection, i.e. absorption, it adds some momentum to the ship. So the velocity of the ship increases. Now we enter the second stage of reflection, re-transmission. Relative to the ship the outgoing wavelength of the photon is the same as the incoming photon (because of invariance). But the observer at rest sees that that transmitted photon has dopplershifted (nice verb) and thus lost some energy. This is the same principle the police uses to measure speeding cars with radar. >What happens to the mirrors? What happens to the light pulse? >An answer describing the limit state of the mirrors and light >pulse is acceptable; you don't have to perform a step-by-step >analysis of each reflection. Assuming these mirrors have mass, they indeed will get some velocity that correspondends to the same momentum as the photon. By each reflection the photon will loose some momentum and lower its wavelength. ReplyTo : Kelly ReplyFrom : Timothy >I agree that we are stuck without a new power source. Kevins microwave >system or my Externally fueled system are at best theoretical possibilities, >with no real credible way to build them. Externally fueled did that mean scooping? I'm not sure anymore, please tell me if my assumption is right. ReplyTo : Steve ReplyFrom: Timothy Subject : Relativistic mass increase >>>I say that "relativistic mass increase" is a misnomer and that >>>you are better off treating mass as invariant. >> I've always looked at is as follows: When you move faster and faster, part >> of the energy is transformed into mass, the other part is used to get the >> extra momentum. > >I used to look at it this way, but Taylor and Wheeler talked me >out of it (see chapter 8 of _Spacetime Physics_ for a lengthy, >careful discussion on "Use and Abuse of the Concept of Mass"). >The problem here is that relative velocity or acceleration do not >cause any fundamental changes in the structure of the moving >object. Where is this extra mass? If it's really stashed on the >ship somewhere then the people on the ship could measure it. But >they don't feel the ship getting heavier or see any increase in >the mass of the ship in their frame. I wrote it wrong the first time, indeed then the mass must be somewhere on the ship. But look at it this way: When an object starts moving it deforms space-time in such a way that the object looks heavier to the outside world and the other way around, i.e. the object "notices" the outside world to be heavier. This means that locally no mass increase is measured, for the same reason that locally no length contraction or time dilation is measured. >You also seem to be falling into the same trap that Kelly did >earlier, in not treating energy and momentum as separate >components. Most of the counterintuitive results of relativistic >kinematics problems come from failing to understand that the >conserved quantity in a reaction is a _vector_ quantity, and that >the magnitude of that vector is calculated using Lorentz rather >than Euclidean geometry. I still don't see the trap where I fell in. You say that I should treat momentum and energy as seperate components. But I don't see how/where I treated them as one quantity. >Taylor and Wheeler's wisdom on the subject is that the definition >of mass is sqrt(E^2 - p^2); then every observer sees the same >mass for the same object, no matter what their relative motion. How do you measure E and p? E seems to be relativistic mass and p relativistic momentum. (E=gamma*m_rest p=gamma*m_rest*v) I would measure the perceived relativistic mass and the relative velocity. As far as I can see, doing that all observers will also agree about the rest mass. >> Now I only wonder, does such a fast moving particle excert greater >> gravitation on a non-moving observer? > >This I can't answer with certainty. Offhand, I'd say "no." If >the particle's mass doesn't change, then how could its >gravitation change? I don't know the answer for certain either, but when making the link with length contraction and time dilation I would say that indeed a bigger mass is measured. >> Steve if the answer is yes, how do you explain that not using "relativistic >> mass increase"? > >If, on the other hand, a moving object did exert greater >gravitation than a stationary object of the same mass, I'd >probably be looking for a relation to a quantity that did change, >like the object's total energy. So that would mean that some of the change in energy is change of gravitational energy, from which I would conclude that it comes from extra mass (or bending of space time). Is it this translation of energy to mass that gives the trouble? From popserver Sun Nov 26 01:13:12 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1344" "Sat" "25" "November" "1995" "17:08:10" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "32" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA25004; Sat, 25 Nov 95 17:05:08 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id RAA08463; Sat, 25 Nov 1995 17:08:10 -0800 Message-Id: <199511260108.RAA08463@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: References: <199511250902.BAA06131@tzadkiel.efn.org> X-UIDL: 817348202.000 From: Steve VanDevender To: Kevin C Houston Cc: Steve VanDevender , Timothy van der Linden , KellySt@aol.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sat, 25 Nov 1995 17:08:10 -0800 Kevin C. Houston writes: > To: all nitpickers > From: A nit(wit) who is tired of getting picked on. ;) Sorry, but conservation of energy and momentum are too fundamental to ignore. If you can't follow those rules then you may as well give up and design a warp drive, since you're throwing out the laws of physics anyway. > see my web page > http://www.umn.edu/nlhome/m056/hous0042/asimov.html > for an idea that is consistant with Steve and Timothy's objections. > > i.e. reflection transferrs momentum to the normal, and absorbtion > transfers momentum in the direction of the photons original vector. > > Advance billing: it is _still_ possible to cancel the momentum within the > structure of the antenna/sail . > > HA! We'll see. You must either absorb the photon and thereby absorb its momentum, or reflect the photon and get momentum to balance the change in direction of the photon. The only way to not get any momentum change is to either not interact with the photon or reflect it so as to leave it travelling in the same direction it came with the same energy. If the system consisting of the photon beam and the spaceship plus sail assembly doesn't have the same momentum after the interaction as before, then you'll have to go back to the drawing board. Perhaps after a brief refresher course in physics. From popserver Sun Nov 26 02:03:31 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2224" "Sun" "26" "November" "1995" "02:59:48" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "70" "Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA26658; Sat, 25 Nov 95 17:57:27 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA23853 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 26 Nov 1995 02:59:44 +0100 Message-Id: <199511260159.AA23853@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 817351221.000 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 02:59:48 +0100 ReplyTo : The Nitwit ReplyFrom : Nitpicker Timothy Hi Steve, I'm sorry to have frustrated you. The reason I'm doing that is because you are always finding these wonderful solutions and I can't stand that. :) No, not really of course, but it is really difficult, as we all know by now, to find a method to harnas these amounts of energy. I guess, if there was a easy and cheap way we would have found it by now. We all are hoping to find some ingenious way to get around all the problems at once, so all solutions are welcome. But also there is a great possibility that these solutions will fail. The only thing I can write is, let the new ideas come and try to explain why you think they work. Before you read any further I have to warn you :) TAKE SOME VALIUM TABLETS AND TRY TO RELAX... >see my web page >http://www.umn.edu/nlhome/m056/hous0042/asimov.html >for an idea that is consistant with Steve and Timothy's objections. I almost dare not saying it but, how accurate is your calculator? Let me recalculate the values of the various components: a=55.47 m/s^2 (purple) b=27.73 m/s^2 (red) Purple x-comp = a sin( 21) = 19.88 (you got 51.62) Purple y-comp = a cos( 21) = 51.79 (you got 20.3023) Red x-comp = b cos(-48) = -18.55 (you got -18.9) Red y-comp = b sin(-48) = -20.61 (you got -20.3021) I checked all cos and sin formulas in the drawing and all seem to be OK, the only things that are wrong are the final decimal numbers. If you now sum the several components: x=19.88-18.55=1.33 y=51.79-20.61=31.18 (This value is too high to compensate) (You wrote the formulas where you calculated the accelerations wrong but the answers seemed right) If you think other angles would make your system work, I still am certain it won't work. If you want to give it a try here are more general formulas: t is the angle for which you took 21 a=2b (reflected momentum is twice the absorbed momentum) remember t is between 0 and 90 Px=2b sin(t) Py=2b cos(t) Rx=b cos(-2t) Ry=b sin(-2t) x=Px+Rx=2b sin(t) + b cos(-2t) y=Py+Ry=2b cos(t) + b sin(-2t) only t=90 will make y equal to zero, but t=90 means the light goes straight on, whithout touching the mirror or absorber. Good luck, Timothy From popserver Sun Nov 26 02:53:50 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["1944" "Sat" "25" "November" "1995" "20:46:38" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" "" "50" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA28253; Sat, 25 Nov 95 18:45:00 PST Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Sat, 25 Nov 95 20:46:38 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199511260108.RAA08463@tzadkiel.efn.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 817354240.000 From: Kevin C Houston To: Steve VanDevender Cc: Steve VanDevender , Timothy van der Linden , KellySt@aol.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sat, 25 Nov 1995 20:46:38 -0600 (CST) On Sat, 25 Nov 1995, Steve VanDevender wrote: > Kevin C. Houston writes: > > To: all nitpickers > > From: A nit(wit) who is tired of getting picked on. ;) > > Sorry, but conservation of energy and momentum are too > fundamental to ignore. If you can't follow those rules then you > may as well give up and design a warp drive, since you're > throwing out the laws of physics anyway. Would if I could, but I can't, so I won't. > > > see my web page > > http://www.umn.edu/nlhome/m056/hous0042/asimov.html > > for an idea that is consistant with Steve and Timothy's objections. > > > > i.e. reflection transferrs momentum to the normal, and absorbtion > > transfers momentum in the direction of the photons original vector. > > > > Advance billing: it is _still_ possible to cancel the momentum within the > > structure of the antenna/sail . > > > > HA! > > We'll see. You must either absorb the photon and thereby absorb > its momentum, or reflect the photon and get momentum to balance > the change in direction of the photon. The only way to not get > any momentum change is to either not interact with the photon or > reflect it so as to leave it travelling in the same direction it > came with the same energy. > no, first the photon is reflected at an angle, this dumps some of the momentum into the perpendicular directionthe photon leaves the first sail element (reflection) and is absorbed in the second, inner element. as far as that element is concerned, the photon came from the _front_ of the ship. > If the system consisting of the photon beam and the spaceship > plus sail assembly doesn't have the same momentum after the > interaction as before, then you'll have to go back to the drawing > board. Perhaps after a brief refresher course in physics. > it does have the same momentum, just that some of that momentum has been made to cancel out. equal but opposite momentums cancel out From popserver Sun Nov 26 02:53:52 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["7812" "Sat" "25" "November" "1995" "18:48:43" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "162" "Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA28288; Sat, 25 Nov 95 18:45:40 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id SAA08671; Sat, 25 Nov 1995 18:48:43 -0800 Message-Id: <199511260248.SAA08671@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <199511252351.AA19695@student.utwente.nl> References: <199511252351.AA19695@student.utwente.nl> X-UIDL: 817354240.001 From: Steve VanDevender To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sat, 25 Nov 1995 18:48:43 -0800 Timothy van der Linden writes: > > > I have a lot of problem bying the idea that the light bouncing > > > off a sail doesn't lose energy proportional to the kinetic or > > > heat energy gain of the ship. Th power has to be coming from > > > somewhere. > > > >If the sail is reflective to the incident photon, then the photon > >doesn't lose energy as a result of reflection. The ship changes > >velocity because the photon changes direction. That's where the > >"power" comes from. > > I think I can't agree with that Steve, when the photon enters the first > stage of the reflection, i.e. absorption, it adds some momentum to the ship. > So the velocity of the ship increases. Now we enter the second stage of > reflection, re-transmission. Relative to the ship the outgoing wavelength of > the photon is the same as the incoming photon (because of invariance). But > the observer at rest sees that that transmitted photon has dopplershifted > (nice verb) and thus lost some energy. > > This is the same principle the police uses to measure speeding cars with radar. And I don't disagree with that analysis; it's correct in a frame where the ship is moving. In that frame, the photon has more energy and momentum, and while it changes momentum by the same amount as in the frame where the ship is "stationary", this necessarily results in a different-looking scenario. > >What happens to the mirrors? What happens to the light pulse? > >An answer describing the limit state of the mirrors and light > >pulse is acceptable; you don't have to perform a step-by-step > >analysis of each reflection. > > Assuming these mirrors have mass, they indeed will get some velocity that > correspondends to the same momentum as the photon. By each reflection the > photon will loose some momentum and lower its wavelength. This is exactly the analysis I came up with. In the limit the mirrors carry the momentum of the light pulse, and the light pulse fades to nothing. > >> I've always looked at is as follows: When you move faster and faster, part > >> of the energy is transformed into mass, the other part is used to get the > >> extra momentum. > > > >I used to look at it this way, but Taylor and Wheeler talked me > >out of it (see chapter 8 of _Spacetime Physics_ for a lengthy, > >careful discussion on "Use and Abuse of the Concept of Mass"). > >The problem here is that relative velocity or acceleration do not > >cause any fundamental changes in the structure of the moving > >object. Where is this extra mass? If it's really stashed on the > >ship somewhere then the people on the ship could measure it. But > >they don't feel the ship getting heavier or see any increase in > >the mass of the ship in their frame. > > I wrote it wrong the first time, indeed then the mass must be somewhere on > the ship. But look at it this way: When an object starts moving it deforms > space-time in such a way that the object looks heavier to the outside world > and the other way around, i.e. the object "notices" the outside world to be > heavier. > This means that locally no mass increase is measured, for the same reason > that locally no length contraction or time dilation is measured. Taylor and Wheeler say it better than I can. Their approach is based on years of teaching special relativity to new students, which is why I give it credence. So, to quote Taylor and Wheeler: Q: If the factor c^2 is not the central feature of the relationship between mass and energy, what _is_ central? A: The distinction between mass and energy is this: Mass is the magnitude of the momenergy 4-vector and energy is the time component of the same vector. Any feature of this discussion that emphasizes this contrast is an aid to understanding. Any slurring of terminology that obscures this distinction is a potential source of error or confusion. Q: Is the mass of a moving object greater than the mass of the same object at rest? A: No. It is the same whether the object is at rest or in motion; the same in all frames. To explain some of their terminology: Taylor and Wheeler teach relativistic kinematics using the notion of "momenergy". Since energy is conserved and the vector quantity of momentum is conserved in a system, they express the entire state of an object or system using a 4-vector that combines both quantities, which they call a "momenergy vector". An object's state of motion can be expressed as a vector of the form [ E px py pz ], where E is the object's energy and [ px py pz ] are the components of the object's momentum. Since vectors are normally added component by component, adding momenergy vectors preserves the conservation of the individual components. The other notion that they introduce at the very beginning of the book is that relativistic spacetime is non-Euclidean, even in special relativity. A vector of the form [ t x y z ] is defined to have magnitude sqrt(t^2 - x^2 - y^2 - z^2), which results in non-zero vectors that have magnitude zero (or even imaginary magnitude). The magnitude of a momenergy vector is exactly the mass of the system described by that vector. The only time that mass is equivalent to energy is when momentum is zero, or in a frame in which the object in question is at rest. > >Taylor and Wheeler's wisdom on the subject is that the definition > >of mass is sqrt(E^2 - p^2); then every observer sees the same > >mass for the same object, no matter what their relative motion. > > How do you measure E and p? E seems to be relativistic mass and p > relativistic momentum. (E=gamma*m_rest p=gamma*m_rest*v) > I would measure the perceived relativistic mass and the relative velocity. > As far as I can see, doing that all observers will also agree about the rest > mass. Another quote from Taylor and Wheeler: Q: In order to make this point clear, should we call invariant mass of a particle rest mass? A: That is what we called it in the first edition of this book. But a thoughtful student pointed out that the phrase "rest mass" is also subject to misunderstanding: What happens to the "rest mass" of a particle when the particle moves? In reality mass is mass is mass. Mass has the same value in all frames, is invariant, no matter how the particle moves. [Galileo: "In questions of science the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual."] The way I was taught to measure mass is as sqrt(E^2 - p^2). So the mass of a particle with energy E = gamma * m_rest and momentum p = gamma * m_rest * v (where v is a vector) is m^2 = E^2 - p^2 = gamma^2 * m_rest^2 - gamma^2 * m_rest^2 * abs(v)^2 = gamma^2 * m_rest^2 * (1 - abs(v)^2) = m_rest^2 (gamma is 1/sqrt(1 - abs(v)^2)). So no matter how the particle moves it has the same mass. Mass is not energy. What you call "relativistic mass" I call energy; what I call "mass" you seem to want to call "rest mass", yet the quantity "mass" that I am using doesn't vary with motion. > >If, on the other hand, a moving object did exert greater > >gravitation than a stationary object of the same mass, I'd > >probably be looking for a relation to a quantity that did change, > >like the object's total energy. > > So that would mean that some of the change in energy is change of > gravitational energy, from which I would conclude that it comes from extra > mass (or bending of space time). First you have to convince me that a moving object really does exert more gravitational force. > Is it this translation of energy to mass that gives the trouble? It is that my studies of relativistic kinematics do not allow for the treatment of energy and mass as identical quantities. From popserver Sun Nov 26 03:19:04 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2340" "Sat" "25" "November" "1995" "21:16:30" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "61" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA29217; Sat, 25 Nov 95 19:14:58 PST Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Sat, 25 Nov 95 21:16:31 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199511260159.AA23853@student.utwente.nl> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 817355753.000 From: Kevin C Houston To: Timothy van der Linden Cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sat, 25 Nov 1995 21:16:30 -0600 (CST) On Sun, 26 Nov 1995, Timothy van der Linden wrote: > ReplyTo : The Nitwit BTW, in english, a nitwit is a stupid person. (someone with the brains of a nit ) in so naming myself, I admit my previous errors > ReplyFrom : Nitpicker Timothy > > Hi Steve, I'm sorry to have frustrated you. actually, it's Kevin, I know it can be confusing when three or more people are engaged in debate, but try to keep us straight. It's not nice to insult Steve's intelligence like that. > The reason I'm doing that is because you are always finding these wonderful > solutions and I can't stand that. :) No, not really of course, but it is > really difficult, as we all know by now, to find a method to harnas these > amounts of energy. I guess, if there was a easy and cheap way we would have > found it by now. We all are hoping to find some ingenious way to get around > all the problems at once, so all solutions are welcome. But also there is a > great possibility that these solutions will fail. > > The only thing I can write is, let the new ideas come and try to explain why > you think they work. > > Before you read any further I have to warn you :) > > TAKE SOME VALIUM TABLETS AND TRY TO RELAX... > > >see my web page > >http://www.umn.edu/nlhome/m056/hous0042/asimov.html > >for an idea that is consistant with Steve and Timothy's objections. > > I almost dare not saying it but, how accurate is your calculator? > not very, considering i lost it (or it was stolen), I've been using EXCEL for my calculations, also, I rounded the actual angle of the sail elements from 21.47 to 21 > Let me recalculate the values of the various components: > > a=55.47 m/s^2 (purple) b=27.73 m/s^2 (red) > > Purple x-comp = a sin( 21) = 19.88 (you got 51.62) > Purple y-comp = a cos( 21) = 51.79 (you got 20.3023) it is possible i mixed these two up, and _wrote_ a sin, when i _meant_ a cos. I will have to check the spreadsheet and the web page. Other than that, I think the other errors are from rounding. > Red x-comp = b cos(-48) = -18.55 (you got -18.9) > Red y-comp = b sin(-48) = -20.61 (you got -20.3021) > > I checked all cos and sin formulas in the drawing and all seem to be OK, the > only things that are wrong are the final decimal numbers. I will check that and get back to you. From popserver Sun Nov 26 06:58:02 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5058" "Sat" "25" "November" "1995" "22:53:57" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "94" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA06408; Sat, 25 Nov 95 22:50:53 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id WAA09366; Sat, 25 Nov 1995 22:53:57 -0800 Message-Id: <199511260653.WAA09366@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: References: <199511260108.RAA08463@tzadkiel.efn.org> X-UIDL: 817368889.001 From: Steve VanDevender To: Kevin C Houston Cc: Steve VanDevender , Timothy van der Linden , KellySt@aol.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sat, 25 Nov 1995 22:53:57 -0800 Kevin C. Houston writes: > > We'll see. You must either absorb the photon and thereby absorb > > its momentum, or reflect the photon and get momentum to balance > > the change in direction of the photon. The only way to not get > > any momentum change is to either not interact with the photon or > > reflect it so as to leave it travelling in the same direction it > > came with the same energy. > > no, first the photon is reflected at an angle, this dumps some of the > momentum into the perpendicular directionthe photon leaves the first sail > element (reflection) and is absorbed in the second, inner element. as > far as that element is concerned, the photon came from the _front_ of the > ship. Look, I'm not doing this to dump on your parade, but it's a very simple check that I'm doing on your proposed solution to verify that it satisfies the laws of physics. We are looking at a system consisting of some quantity of photons with total momenergy [ p p 0 0 ] and a spacecraft with momenergy [ m 0 0 0 ], as seen in the frame where the spacecraft is initially at rest. No matter what, whether or not these two components interact, then the final total momenergy of all the resulting components must sum to [ m+p p 0 0 ]; in other words, the system has net forward momentum p always and forever. This is fundamental and inescapable. If you start out with a big box containing the photons and the spacecraft, then that box always has the same forward momentum for as long as all the original components remain in the box and nothing new is put in the box. Even worse for your argument, you are specifying that the photons are entirely absorbed by the spacecraft, meaning that the only component that is left after the interaction is the spacecraft, which must then have all the forward momentum. I know that my argument barely even uses math and must seem too simple to refute all the work you've put into this, but your solution fails to conserve momentum and is therefore physically invalid. > > If the system consisting of the photon beam and the spaceship > > plus sail assembly doesn't have the same momentum after the > > interaction as before, then you'll have to go back to the drawing > > board. Perhaps after a brief refresher course in physics. > > it does have the same momentum, just that some of that momentum has been > made to cancel out. equal but opposite momentums cancel out I think what your analysis is failing to account for, at some level, is that momentum is a vector quantity. Your think you have found a way to turn around part of the momentum and pit it against itself. Unfortunately that can't satisfy conservation of momentum. Not just the magnitude of the total system momentum, but the direction, must be conserved. You can't "dump momentum in the perpendicular direction.". Any forward momentum that you take away from the beam _must_ be transferred to the ship, whether the beam is reflected or absorbed, no matter the angle of the reflecting or absorbing surface; it cannot be transferred to momentum in any other direction. The structural loading caused by the beam does not absorb momentum continuously, because momentum implies motion -- unless you unhook the reflector or cut it into pieces, the reflector cannot accept momentum separately from the ship because it cannot move relative to the ship; a tiny amount of momentum goes into stretching the ship's structure when the beam is first turned on, and accounts for no more absorption after that. The only way to cancel out a quantity of momentum is to accept it from another source; you cannot take a single source of momentum and use one part of it to cancel another part of it. Again, let's start with what you've got -- photons with momenergy [ p p 0 0 ], and a spacecraft with momenergy [ m 0 0 0 ], for a total system momenergy [ m+p p 0 0 ]. When the photons bounce off the conical reflector tilted at an angle a, it changes the total photon momenergy from [ p p 0 0 ] to [ p*cos(2*a) -p*cos(2*a) 0 0 ]. The spacecraft then changes momenergy to [ m+p*(1-cos(2*a)) p*(1+cos(2*a)) 0 0 ]. The total system momenergy is still [ m+p p 0 0 ]. You have pitted the photon beam against itself, because the beam has been decollimated and individual photons now have sideways momentum that sums to zero for the entire beam, but that doesn't mean that the spacecraft doesn't gain momentum and energy to conserve the system momenergy [ m+p p 0 0 ]. Now the photons with momenergy [ p*cos(2*a) -p*cos(2*a) 0 0 ] travel back and hit the absorber (which need not be tilted or conical itself; it could just be a long column down the axis of the conical reflector). They transfer their momenergy into the collector, so the spacecraft momenergy changes to [ m+p p 0 0 ]. The spacecraft has net forward momentum. Momenergy has been conserved at all times throughout. There is no way to absorb the photons without absorbing their momentum. "I canna change the laws of physics, Captain." -- Chief Engineer Scott From popserver Sun Nov 26 23:12:13 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["5755" "Sun" "26" "November" "1995" "17:39:02" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" "<199511261638.AA18646@student.utwente.nl>" "141" "Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA23834; Sun, 26 Nov 95 08:36:51 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA18646 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 26 Nov 1995 17:38:56 +0100 Message-Id: <199511261638.AA18646@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 817427321.009 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 17:39:02 +0100 Reply To : Steve Reply From : Timothy >> I think I can't agree with that Steve, when the photon enters the first >> stage of the reflection, i.e. absorption, it adds some momentum to the ship. >> So the velocity of the ship increases. Now we enter the second stage of >> reflection, re-transmission. Relative to the ship the outgoing wavelength of >> the photon is the same as the incoming photon (because of invariance). But >> the observer at rest sees that that transmitted photon has dopplershifted >> (nice verb) and thus lost some energy. > >And I don't disagree with that analysis; it's correct in a frame >where the ship is moving. In that frame, the photon has more >energy and momentum, and while it changes momentum by the same >amount as in the frame where the ship is "stationary", this >necessarily results in a different-looking scenario. I was wrong to compare it with the police radar, so forget that part. But I still don't see what was wrong with part preceding it. o you say the photon looses energy if it accelerates the ship or do you say that the energy of the photon stays the same? What does that different scenario look like? >> Assuming these mirrors have mass, they indeed will get some velocity that >> correspondends to the same momentum as the photon. By each reflection the >> photon will loose some momentum and lower its wavelength. > >This is exactly the analysis I came up with. In the limit the >mirrors carry the momentum of the light pulse, and the light >pulse fades to nothing. Somehow we seem to agree on this, but I'm not sure why. >The way I was taught to measure mass is as sqrt(E^2 - p^2). So >the mass of a particle with energy E = gamma * m_rest and >momentum p = gamma * m_rest * v (where v is a vector) is > >m^2 = E^2 - p^2 > = gamma^2 * m_rest^2 - gamma^2 * m_rest^2 * abs(v)^2 > = gamma^2 * m_rest^2 * (1 - abs(v)^2) > = m_rest^2 > >(gamma is 1/sqrt(1 - abs(v)^2)). So no matter how the particle >moves it has the same mass. Mass is not energy. What you call >"relativistic mass" I call energy; what I call "mass" you seem to >want to call "rest mass", yet the quantity "mass" that I am using >doesn't vary with motion. This is what I was feeling; We think the same but use different terminology. What you call mass doesn't vary. I call that quantity rest-mass and that doesn't vary either. Taylor and Wheeler tell us that rest-mass revokes a potential misunderstanding so they call it invariant mass. I don't see why rest-mass would change when a body starts moving, I guess I've grown above that misunderstanding. You say the energy changes while I say the relativistic-mass or the kinetic energy changes. This kinetic energy is not the classical 0.5mv^2 but m_rest*c^2(gamma-1) Or more clear the total energy minus the rest-energy. > > >If, on the other hand, a moving object did exert greater > > >gravitation than a stationary object of the same mass, I'd > > >probably be looking for a relation to a quantity that did change, > > >like the object's total energy. > > > > So that would mean that some of the change in energy is change of > > gravitational energy, from which I would conclude that it comes from extra > > mass (or bending of space time). > >First you have to convince me that a moving object really does >exert more gravitational force. Let me quote a few sentences of "Introducing Einstein's relativity" by Ray d'Inverno in the paragraph "The principle of equivalence": Next, we wish to make explicit the assumption that matter both responds to, and is a source of, a gravitational field. However, we have seen in special relativity that matter and energy are equivalent, so the statement about the gravitational field applies to energy as well. This means that even photons excert and react to gravity as well as all other kinds of energy. I would conclude from this that moving bodies excert greater gravitation either because of gain of mass or gain of energy. I feel both can be used, its a bit like the wave-particle duality. >> Is it this translation of energy to mass that gives the trouble? > >It is that my studies of relativistic kinematics do not allow for >the treatment of energy and mass as identical quantities. They are indeed not identical but equivalent, meaning they can be be interchanged. =============================================================================== ReplyTo : Kevin ReplyFrom : Tim >BTW, in english, a nitwit is a stupid person. (someone with the brains >of a nit ) in so naming myself, I admit my previous errors Yes, I knew, I looked it up in a dictionary, it was just a repeat of your own words. >actually, it's Kevin, I know it can be confusing when three or more >people are engaged in debate, but try to keep us straight. It's not nice >to insult Steve's intelligence like that. I guess, it was a bit late when I wrote that just after I finished the letter to Steve which occupied my mind. >not very, considering i lost it (or it was stolen), I've been using EXCEL >for my calculations, also, I rounded the actual angle of the sail >elements from 21.47 to 21 I figured you used tables or something like that. Anyway here are some extra corrections of my calculations: >> Red x-comp = b cos(-48) = -18.55 (you got -18.9) ^ should be positive And I made mistakes in the general formulas, so here are the right ones: Px=2b sin(t) Py=2b cos(t) Rx=b sin(2t-180)=- b sin(2t) Ry=b cos(2t-180)=- b cos(2t) x=Px+Rx=2b sin(t) - b sin(2t) y=Py+Ry=2b cos(t) - b cos(2t) t=90 gives y=b which is logical because that means that if there is no mirror the energy is captured right away. Every other angle makes the problem worse! From popserver Sun Nov 26 23:12:20 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["5258" "Sun" "26" "November" "1995" "12:40:51" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" "" "122" "Okay, I give up ( well, not exactly ;)" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA01070; Sun, 26 Nov 95 10:39:09 PST Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Sun, 26 Nov 95 12:40:52 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199511260653.WAA09366@tzadkiel.efn.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 817427321.014 From: Kevin C Houston To: Steve VanDevender Cc: Timothy van der Linden , KellySt@aol.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David Levine Subject: Okay, I give up ( well, not exactly ;) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 12:40:51 -0600 (CST) On Sat, 25 Nov 1995, Steve VanDevender wrote: > Look, I'm not doing this to dump on your parade, but it's a very > simple check that I'm doing on your proposed solution to verify > that it satisfies the laws of physics. i know you aren't doing this to be mean, I'm just frustrated by the situation. I checked my spreadsheet again, and found a cos where a sin should be, and vice versa. > > We are looking at a system consisting of some quantity of photons > with total momenergy [ p p 0 0 ] and a spacecraft with momenergy > [ m 0 0 0 ], as seen in the frame where the spacecraft is > initially at rest. No matter what, whether or not these two > components interact, then the final total momenergy of all the > resulting components must sum to [ m+p p 0 0 ]; in other words, > the system has net forward momentum p always and forever. This > is fundamental and inescapable. If you start out with a big box > containing the photons and the spacecraft, then that box always > has the same forward momentum for as long as all the original > components remain in the box and nothing new is put in the box. > Even worse for your argument, you are specifying that the photons > are entirely absorbed by the spacecraft, meaning that the only > component that is left after the interaction is the spacecraft, > which must then have all the forward momentum. > Yes, I should have known this. in Chem Eng, we use the concept of a control volume all the time. > I know that my argument barely even uses math and must seem too > simple to refute all the work you've put into this, but your > solution fails to conserve momentum and is therefore physically > invalid. > Simple arguments can convince simple minds (like mine) > > it does have the same momentum, just that some of that momentum has been > > made to cancel out. equal but opposite momentums cancel out > > I think what your analysis is failing to account for, at some > level, is that momentum is a vector quantity. Your think you > have found a way to turn around part of the momentum and pit it > against itself. Unfortunately that can't satisfy conservation of > momentum. Not just the magnitude of the total system momentum, > but the direction, must be conserved. You can't "dump momentum > in the perpendicular direction.". Any forward momentum that you > take away from the beam _must_ be transferred to the ship, > whether the beam is reflected or absorbed, no matter the angle of > the reflecting or absorbing surface; it cannot be transferred to > momentum in any other direction. The structural loading caused > by the beam does not absorb momentum continuously, because > momentum implies motion -- unless you unhook the reflector or cut > it into pieces, the reflector cannot accept momentum separately > from the ship because it cannot move relative to the ship; a tiny > amount of momentum goes into stretching the ship's structure when > the beam is first turned on, and accounts for no more absorption > after that. The only way to cancel out a quantity of momentum is > to accept it from another source; you cannot take a single source > of momentum and use one part of it to cancel another part of it. Agreed that the way i proposed won't work, why can't a single source be decomposed and used to cancel itself? It can be done with light, a single beam can be split, half the beam can have it's phase delayed by 1/2 wavelength, and then recombined with the other half of the beam, the net result is _nothing_ no beam. they destructively interfere. Since any particle or energy can be considered a wave, (debroglie wave for momentum) why can't this same trick be used? > > "I canna change the laws of physics, Captain." > -- Chief Engineer Scott "any science, sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from magic" -- Arthur C Clarke Okay, If I can't raise the bridge, perhaps I can lower the river. in studying the equations again, the big problem seem to be the exhaust velocity. (I think we knew all along that Ve= .99996 C was impossible) if i turn down the Exhaust velocity, then the exhaust invarient mass must increase. The original reason to increase the exhaust velocity was to conserve RM. but if we can use a maser sail for the first half of the trip, we might be able to accept a higher RM rate for the decell portion of the trip. so here's what I need: a simple easy to use, relativisticlly correct formula that tells me how much energy I need to accelerate a given exhaust mass to a given speed. I'll be using Me=G*(Ms+Mf) * gamma/(Ve *C) where Ve is exhaust Velocity expressed as a fraction of C. Me is Exhaust Mass. Ms is ship's Mass. Mf is Reaction Mass. G is ship's acceleration. gamma is SQRT(1 - Ve^2) I know Tim likes gamma= 1/sqrt(1-Ve^2), but then he divides by it instead of multipling. all mass is invarient or rest mass. Ve is with respect to the ship, and I'm thinking it'll be in the .80-.9? perecent of C range. every time I try to calculate this, I get flamed for using the wrong formula. Timothy gave me one, but then said that you (Steve) had problems with it. so I thought I'd head off any potential problems by asking for the right formula ahead of time. Kevin From popserver Sun Nov 26 23:12:40 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1671" "Sun" "26" "November" "1995" "23:19:37" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "47" "Re: Okay, I give up ( well, not exactly ;)" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA12507; Sun, 26 Nov 95 14:17:14 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA01202 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 26 Nov 1995 23:19:34 +0100 Message-Id: <199511262219.AA01202@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 817427321.029 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Okay, I give up ( well, not exactly ;) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 23:19:37 +0100 >if i turn down the Exhaust velocity, then the exhaust invarient mass must >increase. The original reason to increase the exhaust velocity was to >conserve RM. but if we can use a maser sail for the first half of the >trip, we might be able to accept a higher RM rate for the decell portion >of the trip. Going from 0.99996c to 0.85c means about 60 times more reaction mass... Plus since we can't use a maser beam for energy we have to bring the energy ourselves. >so here's what I need: > >a simple easy to use, relativisticlly correct formula that tells me how much >energy I need to accelerate a given exhaust mass to a given speed. > >I'll be using Me=G*(Ms+Mf) * gamma/(Ve *C) > >where >Ve is exhaust Velocity expressed as a fraction of C. >Me is Exhaust Mass. >Ms is ship's Mass. >Mf is Reaction Mass. >G is ship's acceleration. >gamma is SQRT(1 - Ve^2) I know Tim likes gamma= 1/sqrt(1-Ve^2), but then > he divides by it instead of multipling. In most formulas I use, I have to multiply by gamma. Your formula is one of few where I have to devide by it. >all mass is invarient or rest mass. >Ve is with respect to the ship, and I'm thinking it'll be in the .80-.9? >perecent of C range. To calculate the kinetic energy of a mass M use: K=M C^2 (1/gamma - 1) where gamma is according to your (unusual?) definition. You can substitute Me for M and simplify: K=G C (Ms+Mf) (1-gamma)/Ve (gamma is still according to your definition) Timothy P.S. If you are planning to calculate how much energy is needed to accelerate the Asimov and it's fuel&reaction mass for specific G, I've to tell you that these calculations have been done already. From popserver Mon Nov 27 00:28:25 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3760" "Sun" "26" "November" "1995" "16:25:36" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "93" "Okay, I give up ( well, not exactly ;)" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA19292; Sun, 26 Nov 95 16:22:32 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id QAA11700; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 16:25:36 -0800 Message-Id: <199511270025.QAA11700@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: References: <199511260653.WAA09366@tzadkiel.efn.org> X-UIDL: 817431908.000 From: Steve VanDevender To: Kevin C Houston Cc: Steve VanDevender , Timothy van der Linden , KellySt@aol.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David Levine Subject: Okay, I give up ( well, not exactly ;) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 16:25:36 -0800 Kevin C. Houston writes: > > The only way to cancel out a quantity of momentum is > > to accept it from another source; you cannot take a single source > > of momentum and use one part of it to cancel another part of it. > > Agreed that the way i proposed won't work, why can't a single source be > decomposed and used to cancel itself? It can be done with light, a > single beam can be split, half the beam can have it's phase delayed by > 1/2 wavelength, and then recombined with the other half of the beam, the > net result is _nothing_ no beam. they destructively interfere. Since > any particle or energy can be considered a wave, (debroglie wave for > momentum) why can't this same trick be used? No matter what, the momentum has to go somewhere. You can't split a momentum vector in half and turn one of the halves around without creating another momentum vector of magnitude and direction equal to the original to preserve conservation. If you use a mirror to reflect half of the light back on itself, then you get all the momentum of the original beam -- the mirror (and whatever it's attached to) acquires 2 * (1/2 * p) = p momentum for reflecting half of the beam backwards. If you take half the beam and delay it by half a wavelength before retransmitting it forward to combine with the other half of the beam, you don't get the momentum, but you also don't get any of the energy. Unfortunately I'm at a bit of a loss to say where the momentum goes in this case. I also don't think that out-of-phase photons annihilate when they meet. In the region that the out-of-phase photons overlap, they cancel, but they can't just disappear forever. > > "I canna change the laws of physics, Captain." > > -- Chief Engineer Scott > > "any science, sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from magic" > -- Arthur C Clarke Any science, sufficiently advanced, still cannot violate its own fundamental laws. > so here's what I need: > > a simple easy to use, relativisticlly correct formula that > tells me how much energy I need to accelerate a given exhaust > mass to a given speed. As far as I know, that can be done with the standard relativistic kinetic energy formula: KE = m * c^2 * ((1 / sqrt(1 - v^2 / c^2)) - 1) > I'll be using Me=G*(Ms+Mf) * gamma/(Ve *C) > > where > Ve is exhaust Velocity expressed as a fraction of C. > Me is Exhaust Mass. > Ms is ship's Mass. > Mf is Reaction Mass. > G is ship's acceleration. > gamma is SQRT(1 - Ve^2) I know Tim likes gamma= 1/sqrt(1-Ve^2), but then > he divides by it instead of multipling. > > all mass is invarient or rest mass. > Ve is with respect to the ship, and I'm thinking it'll be in the .80-.9? > perecent of C range. Whoa. Where did this come from? How is this related to your requirement above? You should know that _every_ text I've read says that gamma is 1 / sqrt(1 - v^2), so your use is unconventional and may confuse people. Could you at least give some information about how you derived this? I can say right off that it doesn't look right because it doesn't have consistent units; the right-hand side evaluates to units of kg/s. > every time I try to calculate this, I get flamed for using the > wrong formula. Timothy gave me one, but then said that you > (Steve) had problems with it. so I thought I'd head off any > potential problems by asking for the right formula ahead of > time. I don't remember when I might have said this or what formula it was about any more. I'll get back to you on the formula question. I can adapt some of the work I did before, but I think it would be more useful if I cast it in terms of reaction mass and payload mass rather than fractional quantities. From popserver Mon Nov 27 00:53:37 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4157" "Sun" "26" "November" "1995" "16:49:49" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "99" "Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA20876; Sun, 26 Nov 95 16:46:40 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id QAA11752; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 16:49:49 -0800 Message-Id: <199511270049.QAA11752@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <199511261638.AA18646@student.utwente.nl> References: <199511261638.AA18646@student.utwente.nl> X-UIDL: 817433420.000 From: Steve VanDevender To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 16:49:49 -0800 Timothy van der Linden writes: > >And I don't disagree with that analysis; it's correct in a frame > >where the ship is moving. In that frame, the photon has more > >energy and momentum, and while it changes momentum by the same > >amount as in the frame where the ship is "stationary", this > >necessarily results in a different-looking scenario. > > I was wrong to compare it with the police radar, so forget that part. But I > still don't see what was wrong with part preceding it. > o you say the photon looses energy if it accelerates the ship or do you say > that the energy of the photon stays the same? > What does that different scenario look like? In a frame where the ship is in motion, the photon changes energy when it bounces off the ship; its reflected energy is less than the incident energy if the ship receding, greater if the ship is approaching. You actually were right to compare this to doppler radar, because it's this effect that doppler radar measures to determine velocity. > >> Assuming these mirrors have mass, they indeed will get some velocity that > >> correspondends to the same momentum as the photon. By each reflection the > >> photon will loose some momentum and lower its wavelength. > > > >This is exactly the analysis I came up with. In the limit the > >mirrors carry the momentum of the light pulse, and the light > >pulse fades to nothing. > > Somehow we seem to agree on this, but I'm not sure why. Because we're both thinking about it the right way? :-) > >First you have to convince me that a moving object really does > >exert more gravitational force. > > Let me quote a few sentences of "Introducing Einstein's relativity" by Ray > d'Inverno in the paragraph "The principle of equivalence": > > Next, we wish to make explicit the assumption that matter > both responds to, and is a source of, a gravitational > field. However, we have seen in special relativity that > matter and energy are equivalent, so the statement about the > gravitational field applies to energy as well. > > This means that even photons excert and react to gravity as well as all > other kinds of energy. This is true, but it's more complicated than you make it out to be. Note that I will continue to use Taylor and Wheeler's terminology, so when I say "mass", I mean invariant mass. A photon is massless, because it has energy equal to its momentum, and the magnitude of its momenergy vector is 0. However, multiple photons considered as a system may not be massless! For example, two photons with energy/momentum p travelling in opposite directions have mass 2p: [ p p 0 0 ] + [ p -p 0 0 ] = [ 2*p 0 0 0 ] magnitude [ 2*p 0 0 0 ] = 2*p Two photons travelling at right angles to each other also have mass: [ p p 0 0 ] + [ p 0 p 0 ] = [ 2*p p p 0 ] magnitude [ 2*p p p 0 ] = sqrt(2) * p Two photons travelling in parallel have no mass: magnitude [ 2*p 2*p 0 0 ] = 0 An absorber gains mass as well as momentum from a massless photon: [ m 0 0 0 ] + [ p p 0 0 ] = [ m+p p 0 0 ] magnitude [ m+p p 0 0 ] = sqrt((m + p)^2 - p^2) = sqrt(m^2 + 2 * p * m) Mass is a more subtle concept than energy; while energies add linearly, masses as magnitudes of momenergy vectors do not. > I would conclude from this that moving bodies excert greater gravitation > either because of gain of mass or gain of energy. I feel both can be used, > its a bit like the wave-particle duality. What I really want to see is the general relativistic formula that says whether spacetime curvature is the result of an object's mass or its energy. > >> Is it this translation of energy to mass that gives the trouble? > > > >It is that my studies of relativistic kinematics do not allow for > >the treatment of energy and mass as identical quantities. > > They are indeed not identical but equivalent, meaning they can be be > interchanged. Not in Taylor and Wheeler's terminology. The only time they allow mass and energy to be spoken of as equivalent is when you are dealing with an object in its rest frame. In any other frame the object's energy is not equivalent to its mass. From popserver Mon Nov 27 06:12:58 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["991" "Sun" "26" "November" "1995" "22:46:11" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" "<951126224608_34896815@emout05.mail.aol.com>" "21" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA29951; Sun, 26 Nov 95 19:46:00 PST Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA21545; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 22:46:11 -0500 Message-Id: <951126224608_34896815@emout05.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 817452572.003 From: KellySt@aol.com To: stevev@efn.org Cc: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, david@interworld.com, MLEN3097@mercury.gc.peachnet.edu Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 22:46:11 -0500 KellySt@aol.com writes: > The papers I've seen on on solar sails seem to disagree with > you. RThey propose angling the sial to alter the thrust > vector. Which would be impossible if the momenum transfer was > always in the direction of the photons origional vector. >>You don't seem to have read what I wrote, so I'll repeat it below. > >> A reflected photon transfers momentum to a reflector normal to > >> the reflecting surface. We seem to have a com error here. From your previous statments it sounded like you beleaved all thrust would be in the direction of the origional light sources and that you couldn't divert some of the thrust into a lateral force. I.E. cut the forward thrust down. I never sugested you could reverse thrust on a light sail. Part of the problem on my end might have been my use of a light sail as an example. With a light sail you don't thrust away from the sun. You thrust laterally to slow down or speed up along your orbit vector. Kelly From popserver Mon Nov 27 06:13:06 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1130" "Sun" "26" "November" "1995" "22:46:36" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "24" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA29967; Sun, 26 Nov 95 19:46:30 PST Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA04896; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 22:46:36 -0500 Message-Id: <951126224630_34897228@emout06.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 817452572.004 From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 22:46:36 -0500 ReplyTo : Kelly ReplyFrom : Timothy >I agree that we are stuck without a new power source. Kevins microwave >system or my Externally fueled system are at best theoretical possibilities, >with no real credible way to build them. >> Externally fueled did that mean scooping? I'm not sure >> anymore, please tell me if my assumption is right. Not quite. In my Exporer ship design I assumed the fusion fuel was launched ahead of the ship with a linear accelerator. As the ship accelerates it contiually scoops up pre launched fuel going at nearly its speed. So the ship looses very little momentum scooping up the fuel packets. That would allow you to get up to light speed with "only" 200 times the ships mas in fusion fuel. However like Kevins system. We have a serious problem stoping. I though using a ramscope to produce a lot of drag might do it, but never found a good woorkup of the numbers. By the way. Did anyone calculate the drag on the sail structure from interstelar debre? If you can maintain enough of an electric charge to use the microwave sail as a parachute that might help with stoping. Kelly From popserver Mon Nov 27 06:13:09 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3115" "Sun" "26" "November" "1995" "22:46:54" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" "<951126224644_34897493@emout05.mail.aol.com>" "60" "Summarry of the momentum wars and idea." "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA00132; Sun, 26 Nov 95 19:47:33 PST Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA21838; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 22:46:54 -0500 Message-Id: <951126224644_34897493@emout05.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 817452572.005 From: KellySt@aol.com To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org Cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea. Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 22:46:54 -0500 Ok, I'm geting lost in all these cascading arguments and equations. So to try to make sure we have an agreement, I'll try to sumarize. A beam of microwave photons headed in the direction of the ship hits a conical set of mesh sails. Because of the shallow angle of the sails, the photons bounce off the sail moving inward. Because of the shallow angle most of the resulting thrust vector is pointing outward and is canceled out by the oposite side of the sail (I.E. most of the thrust on the sail, or momentum if you prefer is concerted to a thrust load on the sail. No velocity change to ship or sail.), the remaining foward part of the thrust vector does push the ship forward, but at reduced levels. At this point the photons are moving forward and inward toward the ships axis. (Some energy and/or momentum was lost in the first reflection.) This photon stream them hits a power converter, or waveguide feed into the engines or something. At the point of the interaction it still has most its velocity in a forward vector, and about all we've done is cut this amount down due to reflections and power loses as it attempted to rip apart the sail. Are we all agreed on this? Question. Diverted beams of photons converge on a forward pointing cone. This (not considering the beam cancelation due to interfearence, reflection loses, and other such nonsence) is the origional beam moving forward in a much more concentrated form than its pre sail moments. Net thrust to the ship near zip (give or take). In frount of this stream we put an ionized reaction mass. Beam slams into it and throws it forward. A) A lot of the beam (most?) would reflect back off the ionized reaction mass (micro-waves do that off ionized matter) Would this act as Forward's sacrificial outer-sail in "Dragons egg (?)"? I.E. could we use the forwardly reflected beam for drive power? Efectivly the reaction mass (now renamed plasma reflection mass) has gotten boosted forward at a hellish speed, but bounced the beam back down our throats. (Just like Forwards outer drop sail.) We would have to continuously replenish this "reflection mass", but on the bright side we could be very sure it will clean all the interstellar mass out from in frount of the ship. ;) B) Instead of just dumping this superheated reflect mass forward. How about using it as a rocket stream also. At the least we can ride the expanding shock wave from the stuff. Anyway, between A & B we have used part of the beam to create a high temp plasma thurst, and reflected the rest off said plasma onto a rearwardly reflective part of the ship. Momentum/kinetic energy interactions between the beam and the ship are pretty much canceled out until it hits the reaction/reflection mass. The ship needs NO POWER CONVERTERS! We never convert it to electricity to drive an accelerator. (Ok, ok, we convert a little to run the ship and power the magnetic feilds that keep the plasma off the back of the ship.) But other than that, we just reflect it around and feed it mass. Thoughts? (or are we still arguing about momentum and such?) Kelly From popserver Mon Nov 27 08:07:48 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3869" "Mon" "27" "November" "1995" "00:05:31" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "77" "Summarry of the momentum wars and idea." "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA09753; Mon, 27 Nov 95 00:02:21 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id AAA12825; Mon, 27 Nov 1995 00:05:31 -0800 Message-Id: <199511270805.AAA12825@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <951126224644_34897493@emout05.mail.aol.com> References: <951126224644_34897493@emout05.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 817459469.000 From: Steve VanDevender To: KellySt@aol.com Cc: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea. Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 00:05:31 -0800 KellySt@aol.com writes: > Ok, I'm geting lost in all these cascading arguments and > equations. So to try to make sure we have an agreement, I'll > try to sumarize. If you can't stand the math get out of the physics. > A beam of microwave photons headed in the direction of the > ship hits a conical set of mesh sails. Because of the shallow > angle of the sails, the photons bounce off the sail moving > inward. Because of the shallow angle most of the resulting > thrust vector is pointing outward and is canceled out by the > oposite side of the sail (I.E. most of the thrust on the sail, > or momentum if you prefer is concerted to a thrust load on the > sail. No velocity change to ship or sail.), the remaining > foward part of the thrust vector does push the ship forward, > but at reduced levels. > > At this point the photons are moving forward and inward toward > the ships axis. (Some energy and/or momentum was lost in the > first reflection.) This photon stream them hits a power > converter, or waveguide feed into the engines or something. > At the point of the interaction it still has most its velocity > in a forward vector, and about all we've done is cut this > amount down due to reflections and power loses as it attempted > to rip apart the sail. > > Are we all agreed on this? Something that I don't think everyone is grasping in these so-called "momentum wars" is that momentum is a vector quantity, not a scalar quantity. That means that two momentum vectors with identical magnitudes that point in different directions are different quantities of momentum, and one momentum vector cannot be converted to the other. You can redirect a photon beam laterally by reflection. By changing the beam's direction, the reflector must develop momentum to conserve the original quantity that the photon beam had before the reflection. I think even those of us who are doing the right things with momentum conservation are confusing others by erroneously saying that the reflected beam has the same momentum as the original beam. It does not, because the reflected beam is traveling in a different direction. You simply cannot change the total quantity of momentum in a system, ever. A piece of the system can change its momentum by exchanging momentum with other pieces, but no matter what it does it cannot change the sum of the momenta of all the pieces. So the simple physical constraint in the system consisting of the photon beam and the spaceship is that the total momentum of the beam and ship remains the same before, during, and after _any_ interaction between them. If the ship is to absorb the photon beam, it _must_ absorb the momentum too. Besides not treating momentum as a vector quantity, people are making the mistake of thinking that lateral loading of the sail assembly is a magical sink for momentum or energy. The error is in thinking that stress on a static structure absorbs energy or momentum continuously over time. If the sail does not move relative to the ship, then it cannot absorb or dissipate momentum separately from the ship. It cannot absorb momentum if it does not move, because momentum means motion. For just an instant, once, when the beam first touches the sail, the beam does work on the static structure to stretch the sail and support members, which absorb a small quantity of energy. From that point on, as long as the sail does not fall apart or the support members do not break, no more energy is dissipated into loading of the sail structure. The reality that static stress does not continue to dissipate energy over time is not intuitive, because our muscles aren't static structures like boards or rods or wires; they must dissipate energy even to hold a weight motionless above your head, while a table holding the same weight does not dissipate energy. From popserver Mon Nov 27 19:07:15 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["506" "Mon" "27" "November" "1995" "11:25:05" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" "" "21" "Re: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea." "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA28268; Mon, 27 Nov 95 09:24:55 PST Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 27 Nov 95 11:25:06 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199511270805.AAA12825@tzadkiel.efn.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 817499001.017 From: Kevin C Houston To: Steve VanDevender Cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea. Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 11:25:05 -0600 (CST) to:all Re; Finals week. I don't think I'll be contribiting too much in the next week or so, but I'll be listening. quick notes. the "momentum" happens every second, so it's actually an acelleration. many structures (static tho they be) resist continuous acceleration all the time by providing opposing compressive or tensile forces rocket equation units should have units of Kg/sec, because that is a mass flow rate. parasail formulas a=.... are units of acelleration. that's all for now. Kevin From popserver Mon Nov 27 21:37:26 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1172" "Mon" "27" "November" "1995" "12:00:59" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "35" "Re: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea." "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA08629; Mon, 27 Nov 95 11:57:45 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id MAA17208; Mon, 27 Nov 1995 12:00:59 -0800 Message-Id: <199511272000.MAA17208@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: References: <199511270805.AAA12825@tzadkiel.efn.org> X-UIDL: 817508043.000 From: Steve VanDevender To: Kevin C Houston Cc: Steve VanDevender , KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea. Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 12:00:59 -0800 Kevin C. Houston writes: > the "momentum" happens every second, so it's actually an acelleration. That won't get you out of conservation of momentum. The system must change momentum per unit time to equal the amount of momentum added per unit time. > many structures (static tho they be) resist continuous acceleration all > the time by providing opposing compressive or tensile forces The opposing forces are some finite amount of energy that is loaded into the system once. Once the structure is loaded it does not absorb any more energy. If a static structure had to dissipate energy continuously to remain standing, where would such energy come from? Why doesn't your house fall down? Where are the batteries? > rocket equation units should have units of Kg/sec, because that is a mass > flow rate. The equation I was talking about: Me=G*(Ms+Mf) * gamma/(Ve *C) where Ve is exhaust Velocity expressed as a fraction of C. Me is Exhaust Mass. Ms is ship's Mass. Mf is Reaction Mass. G is ship's acceleration. gamma is SQRT(1 - Ve^2 It is inconsistent since it has units of mass on the left, units of mass/time on the right. From popserver Mon Nov 27 21:37:37 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["2454" "Mon" "27" "November" "1995" "14:22:24" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" "" "69" "Re: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea." "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA10318; Mon, 27 Nov 95 12:24:36 PST Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 27 Nov 95 14:22:28 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199511272000.MAA17208@tzadkiel.efn.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 817508043.008 From: Kevin C Houston To: Steve VanDevender Cc: Steve VanDevender , KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea. Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 14:22:24 -0600 (CST) On Mon, 27 Nov 1995, Steve VanDevender wrote: > Kevin C. Houston writes: > > the "momentum" happens every second, so it's actually an acelleration. > > That won't get you out of conservation of momentum. The system > must change momentum per unit time to equal the amount of > momentum added per unit time. > > > many structures (static tho they be) resist continuous acceleration all > > the time by providing opposing compressive or tensile forces > > The opposing forces are some finite amount of energy that is > loaded into the system once. Once the structure is loaded it > does not absorb any more energy. > > If a static structure had to dissipate energy continuously to > remain standing, where would such energy come from? Why doesn't > your house fall down? Where are the batteries? good question, it actually proves my point. consider the following experiment. (easy enough to do in reality, but a thought exp here.) take a flat plate. punch three holes equally spaced along the perimeter. attach a piece of wire to each hole and suspend it from the ceiling. shoot (or drop) a lot of ball bearings onto the plate. provided the wires don't break, the bb's encounter the plate from above, but leave it (in all directions) to the side. since bb's eneter the control volume every second, and leave only from the sides, the plate "feels" a net downward force. provided the force does not overcome the wires tensile strength, this situation is stable. where does the energy come from? nowhere, since there is no net loss of momentum, only a change in y for a given change in x. While this gedenkanexperiment proves your point on photon thrust, (i.e. the bb's changed course) it also proves my point on tensile forces. (the wires don't break) > > > rocket equation units should have units of Kg/sec, because that is a mass > > flow rate. > > The equation I was talking about: > > Me=G*(Ms+Mf) * gamma/(Ve *C) > > where > Ve is exhaust Velocity expressed as a fraction of C. > Me is Exhaust Mass. > Ms is ship's Mass. > Mf is Reaction Mass. > G is ship's acceleration. > gamma is SQRT(1 - Ve^2 > > It is inconsistent since it has units of mass on the left, units > of mass/time on the right. > Sorry, I was unclear. Me has units of mass/second since it is the mass flow per unit time. if my gamma is unconventional, I will gladly change. it makes no difference to me. Kevin From popserver Mon Nov 27 22:23:18 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3039" "Mon" "27" "November" "1995" "14:20:15" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "58" "Re: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea." "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA17485; Mon, 27 Nov 95 14:16:59 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id OAA17530; Mon, 27 Nov 1995 14:20:15 -0800 Message-Id: <199511272220.OAA17530@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: References: <199511272000.MAA17208@tzadkiel.efn.org> X-UIDL: 817510794.001 From: Steve VanDevender To: Kevin C Houston Cc: Steve VanDevender , KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea. Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 14:20:15 -0800 Kevin C. Houston writes: > > The opposing forces are some finite amount of energy that is > > loaded into the system once. Once the structure is loaded it > > does not absorb any more energy. > > > > If a static structure had to dissipate energy continuously to > > remain standing, where would such energy come from? Why doesn't > > your house fall down? Where are the batteries? > > good question, it actually proves my point. consider the following > experiment. (easy enough to do in reality, but a thought exp here.) > > take a flat plate. punch three holes equally spaced along the perimeter. > attach a piece of wire to each hole and suspend it from the ceiling. > shoot (or drop) a lot of ball bearings onto the plate. > provided the wires don't break, the bb's encounter the plate from above, > but leave it (in all directions) to the side. > since bb's eneter the control volume every second, and leave only from > the sides, the plate "feels" a net downward force. > provided the force does not overcome the wires tensile strength, this > situation is stable. where does the energy come from? nowhere, since > there is no net loss of momentum, only a change in y for a given change > in x. > > While this gedenkanexperiment proves your point on photon thrust, > (i.e. the bb's changed course) it also proves my point on tensile > forces. (the wires don't break) Your experiment works as it does only because the momentum from the ball bearings is transferred into the structure that supports the plate, and because you're not including that structure in your "control volume", you're not properly accounting for the momentum of the system. If you do this in space by shooting ball bearings at a plate attached by wires to another structure, the plate and the structure will acquire momentum and start moving as the ball bearings bounce off the plate. The principle of conservation of momentum that has stood since Newton (and that was not modified by Einstein) is tricky to apply in everyday life, because there are a lot of things that complicate it when you're living in an atmosphere on a planet with materials that have friction. When you jump off the ground, the ground also moves away from you under your feet, although by a factor of 10^-23 less (you mass maybe 60 kg; the Earth masses 6e24 kg). When you raise the ball bearings up to drop them on the plate, the center of mass of the Earth moves downward just a tiny amount to compensate. When you drop the bearings, the center of mass of the Earth moves back up, and counterbalances the momentum gained by the plate attached by wires to the structure that is sitting on the Earth. Because this movement is practically unmeasurable, it's easy to ignore it as you did. In a vacuum, in zero gravity, without huge masses that make small changes in momentum unmeasurable, we have conservation of momentum the way Newton imagined it, pure and clean and simple. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. From popserver Mon Nov 27 22:28:24 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1495" "Mon" "27" "November" "1995" "14:20:12" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "32" "Eureka! We've invented the reactionless drive!" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA17478; Mon, 27 Nov 95 14:16:57 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id OAA17529; Mon, 27 Nov 1995 14:20:12 -0800 Message-Id: <199511272220.OAA17529@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <199511270805.AAA12825@tzadkiel.efn.org> References: <951126224644_34897493@emout05.mail.aol.com> <199511270805.AAA12825@tzadkiel.efn.org> X-UIDL: 817511101.000 From: Steve VanDevender To: Steve VanDevender Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Eureka! We've invented the reactionless drive! Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 14:20:12 -0800 Kevin's invention of a momentum-absorbing structure will be one of the great inventions of history, if it pans out. That's because it could be used to create a reactionless drive. Put Kevin's parasail and a powerful laser inside your ship, and just shine the laser at the parasail. You'll start moving in the direction opposite the direction the laser is pointing. The structure doesn't have to be exposed to space or anything; you could just have a box in the engine room containing the parasail-laser assembly. You can even use the parasail's absorber to power the laser (with some auxiliary generator to compensate for inefficiency losses). Here's what would happen: The laser turns on, and generates forward momentum in the ship in reaction to the backward momentum of the laser light. The laser light is absorbed by the parasail, producing some smaller amount of backward momentum than the forward momentum the ship got in reaction to the laser. There's more forward momentum than backward momentum, so the box produces net forward momentum without reaction mass. A lower-tech solution could involve a bunch of BB cannons shooting at a more sturdy version of the parasail assembly. The best part is that if the parasail recovers most of the energy directed at it, you can keep pumping that energy back in to the laser or BB cannons or whatever is providing the thrust; if you can make this efficient enough, you can get huge amounts of momentum for small quantities of energy. From popserver Tue Nov 28 02:05:36 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1187" "Mon" "27" "November" "1995" "17:28:48" "-0800" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" nil "27" "Re: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea." "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from wolfe.net (mail1.wolfe.net) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA29591; Mon, 27 Nov 95 17:21:13 PST Received: from sea-ts2-p50.wolfenet.com (sea-ts2-p50.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.168]) by wolfe.net (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id RAA01699; Mon, 27 Nov 1995 17:28:48 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199511280128.RAA01699@wolfe.net> X-Sender: rddesign@gonzo.wolfenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 817524126.003 From: rddesign@wolfenet.com To: Steve VanDevender Cc: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea. Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 17:28:48 -0800 (PST) >KellySt@aol.com writes: > > > Ok, I'm geting lost in all these cascading arguments and > > equations. So to try to make sure we have an agreement, I'll > > try to sumarize. > >If you can't stand the math get out of the physics. > Ric writes: I have never even dreamed of ever understanding the physics of this but let me toss some stuff out from a dummy's view point. The impression I'm getting is that we can send the power to get us to TC but we can't stop. Correct? How about a hermaphrodite ship. We load it up with reaction mass and hold it in reserve. At mid point we turn the ship, (I know, I know, we've been over this before.) We furl the sail first. ( how we do this is the engineers problem) Turn the ship, begin tossing the reaction mass in the ram and begin the slowing process. As we get nearer to TC unfurl the sail and begin using TC as well as the reaction mass to help slow the ship. I just don't see how many times we can keep running around this topic until we see that with our present technology we don't have too many other choices. OK, guys tear it apart. :-) ( God how I love being canon fodder) The best Beads come from RD Designs. Ric & Denisse Hedman From popserver Tue Nov 28 07:42:09 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["2783" "Mon" "27" "November" "1995" "22:10:43" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" "" "59" "one question" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA10541; Mon, 27 Nov 95 20:39:56 PST Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 27 Nov 95 22:10:45 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199511280128.RAA01699@wolfe.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 817544315.006 From: Kevin C Houston To: rddesign@wolfenet.com Cc: Steve VanDevender , stevev@efn.org, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: one question Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 22:10:43 -0600 (CST) Steve, I have a question for you. (BTW, Your sarcasm on the reactionless drive was not lost on me. I am both overjoyed, and dismayed to have invented it overjoyed for obvious reasons. dismayed, because it cannot be --- although E E "Doc" Smith didn't think so ;) Out in intergalactic space (far far away from all outside gravitational influences) you have the following setup: black plate absorbs laser beam ^ p= E/C | _________ | : : | | : : | | :L: | | :A: | # - Laser source | :S: | : - Laser beam | :E: | | - wires to hold plates | :R: | | : : | | : : | | : : | | : : | | ### | | ### | | ### | --------- p= E/C | V The top plate (the absorber) is in thermal equilibrium with a large amount of solid Unobtainium m.p. 2.7 K, atomic mass = sqrt(-1) g/cm^3 so that there is no radiation from heat effects. power is provided by a small on-board power source What happens when you turn on the laser? I'd say that it would just sit there, although you can clearly see that without the wires to hold them together, the laser source and the top plate would to move away from each other. The wires are clearly dissipating a momentum equal to 2 E/C. that is what i was trying to say with my bb analogy. i do have an idea now for a reactionless drive. (inspired by your sarcastic post) It is late at night, and i must get some rest. i will have to post it on the web, as ascii art is not of sufficient resolution to describe it fully. I cannot see why it shouldn't work, Hopefully you will be able to explain. I'll let you all know when it's ready. Kevin H. From popserver Tue Nov 28 08:07:54 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["7164" "Tue" "28" "November" "1995" "09:05:22" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" "<199511280805.AA25072@student.utwente.nl>" "160" "Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA19885; Tue, 28 Nov 95 00:04:11 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA25072 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 28 Nov 1995 09:05:15 +0100 Message-Id: <199511280805.AA25072@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 817545868.000 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 09:05:22 +0100 ReplyTo : Kelly ReplyFrom : Timothy >>> Externally fueled did that mean scooping? I'm not sure >>> anymore, please tell me if my assumption is right. > >Not quite. In my Exporer ship design I assumed the fusion fuel was launched >ahead of the ship with a linear accelerator. As the ship accelerates it >contiually scoops up pre launched fuel going at nearly its speed. So the >ship looses very little momentum scooping up the fuel packets. That would >allow you to get up to light speed with "only" 200 times the ships mas in >fusion fuel. However like Kevins system. We have a serious problem stoping. > I though using a ramscope to produce a lot of drag might do it, but never >found a good woorkup of the numbers. This method of prelaunching fuel packets will cost the same amount of energy that is needed if you take those same packets with you from the start. Why? Because all packets have the same speed as the Asimov after it has accelerated. Accelerating a lot of small packets or just one big packet does not save energy. >By the way. Did anyone calculate the drag on the sail structure from >interstelar debre? If you can maintain enough of an electric charge to use >the microwave sail as a parachute that might help with stoping. The problem is that there are no accurate numbers of the density of interstellar debris. So any number is almost a guess. =============================================================================== ReplyTo : Steve ReplyFrom : Timothy >In a frame where the ship is in motion, the photon changes energy >when it bounces off the ship; its reflected energy is less than >the incident energy if the ship receding, greater if the ship is >approaching. You actually were right to compare this to doppler >radar, because it's this effect that doppler radar measures to >determine velocity. Huh, are you saying I was right the first time? Am I right saying the following: Photons loose energy because they accelerate the car. Only because of that acceleration their frequency is lowered. Because it takes more energy to transfer the same amount of momentum to a faster moving car (E=v^2 versus p=v) the frequency is lowered even more. >Mass is a more subtle concept than energy; while energies add >linearly, masses as magnitudes of momenergy vectors do not. Agreed. > > I would conclude from this that moving bodies excert greater gravitation > > either because of gain of mass or gain of energy. I feel both can be used, > > its a bit like the wave-particle duality. > >What I really want to see is the general relativistic formula >that says whether spacetime curvature is the result of an >object's mass or its energy. It's hard to find such a formula, all books about general relativistics use tensor calculus. I have a hard time understanding them, so I don't know much about formulas in general relativistics. But don't think we need this formula any more: In Taylor & Wheelers terminology I think curvature would be the result of energy. In "more" general terms it would be either the result of its relativistic mass or the result of its rest mass AND its kinetic energy (ie. together the total energy). > > >> Is it this translation of energy to mass that gives the trouble? > > > > > >It is that my studies of relativistic kinematics do not allow for > > >the treatment of energy and mass as identical quantities. > > > > They are indeed not identical but equivalent, meaning they can be be > > interchanged. > >Not in Taylor and Wheeler's terminology. The only time they >allow mass and energy to be spoken of as equivalent is when you >are dealing with an object in its rest frame. In any other frame >the object's energy is not equivalent to its mass. No indeed not equivalent to its rest mass but equivalent to its relativistic mass. >>>> I say that "relativistic mass increase" is a misnomer and that >>>> you are better off treating mass as invariant. I guess that is what I always did, only I was not that much aware of the problems others might have with the duality in the terminology. After all this, can we conclude a charged battery is heavier than an uncharged battery? ================================================================================ ReplyTo : Kelly ReplyFrom : Timothy >Question. >Diverted beams of photons converge on a forward pointing cone. This (not >considering the beam cancelation due to interfearence, reflection loses, and >other such nonsence) is the origional beam moving forward in a much more >concentrated form than its pre sail moments. Net thrust to the ship near zip >(give or take). In frount of this stream we put an ionized reaction mass. > Beam slams into it and throws it forward. > >A) A lot of the beam (most?) would reflect back off the ionized reaction mass >(micro-waves do that off ionized matter) Would this act as Forward's >sacrificial outer-sail in "Dragons egg (?)"? I.E. could we use the forwardly >reflected beam for drive power? Efectivly the reaction mass (now renamed >plasma reflection mass) has gotten boosted forward at a hellish speed, but >bounced the beam back down our throats. (Just like Forwards outer drop >sail.) We would have to continuously replenish this "reflection mass", but >on the bright side we could be very sure it will clean all the interstellar >mass out from in frount of the ship. ;) Replenishing the "mirror" will probably take lots of ions or in other words mass that has to be taken with us. Also using such a light (non heavy) sail will mean that the "mirror" is accelerated a lot and lot of energy is lost due to the Doppler effect. Also I have doubts how well the "mirror" reflects, ionized particles attract or repell each other so, it won't take long befor the "mirror" has destroyed itself. >B) >Instead of just dumping this superheated reflect mass forward. How about >using it as a rocket stream also. At the least we can ride the expanding >shock wave from the stuff. Shock wave? I don't understand, please explain again. >Anyway, between A & B we have used part of the beam to create a high temp >plasma thurst, and reflected the rest off said plasma onto a rearwardly >reflective part of the ship. Momentum/kinetic energy interactions between >the beam and the ship are pretty much canceled out until it hits the >reaction/reflection mass. The ship needs NO POWER CONVERTERS! We never >convert it to electricity to drive an accelerator. (Ok, ok, we convert a >little to run the ship and power the magnetic feilds that keep the plasma off >the back of the ship.) But other than that, we just reflect it around and >feed it mass. ============================================================================== Steve writes: >The reality that static stress does not continue to dissipate >energy over time is not intuitive, because our muscles aren't >static structures like boards or rods or wires; they must >dissipate energy even to hold a weight motionless above your >head, while a table holding the same weight does not dissipate >energy. Yes, in fact is does not take any energy to keep floating a few metres above Earth's surface. Timothy From popserver Tue Nov 28 12:11:34 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2934" "Tue" "28" "November" "1995" "00:52:06" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "67" "one question" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA03323; Tue, 28 Nov 95 04:07:37 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id AAA19367; Tue, 28 Nov 1995 00:52:06 -0800 Message-Id: <199511280852.AAA19367@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: References: <199511280128.RAA01699@wolfe.net> X-UIDL: 817560468.008 From: Steve VanDevender To: Kevin C Houston Cc: rddesign@wolfenet.com, Steve VanDevender , T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: one question Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 00:52:06 -0800 Kevin C. Houston writes: > Steve, I have a question for you. (BTW, Your sarcasm on the > reactionless drive was not lost on me. I am both overjoyed, and dismayed > to have invented it overjoyed for obvious reasons. dismayed, because it > cannot be --- although E E "Doc" Smith didn't think so ;) I hope it did not seem harsh. My intent was to demonstrate a really nifty application for your, um, incredible invention. :-) > Out in intergalactic space (far far away from all outside gravitational > influences) you have the following setup: [ Figure turned sideways for brevity -- top -> ] |--------------------------------------| |######~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | p = -E/c |######~~~~~L~A~S~E~R~~~~~~~~~~ | p = E/c |######~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | |--------------------------------------| black plate absorbs laser beam # = laser ~ = laser beam - = support wires > The top plate (the absorber) is in thermal equilibrium with a large > amount of solid Unobtainium m.p. 2.7 K, atomic mass = sqrt(-1) g/cm^3 > so that there is no radiation from heat effects. power is provided by a > small on-board power source You must shop at the same physics experiment supply store that I do. That unobtainium sure is useful :-). > What happens when you turn on the laser? > > I'd say that it would just sit there, although you can clearly see that > without the wires to hold them together, the laser source and the top > plate would to move away from each other. You are correct. Although an actual device like this would actually move, but not with any permanent velocity. As the laser heats the absorption plate, mass is transferred from the laser to the plate. As the center of gravity shifts to the right (in my diagram) the assembly would slide to the left. When the laser is turned off, it would stop, then begin to slide slowly rightward as the plate reheats the laser by radiation. > The wires are clearly dissipating a momentum equal to 2 E/C. > that is what i was trying to say with my bb analogy. I'm not sure "dissipating momentum" is quite the term for it. After all, the laser with momentum -E/c is tugging through the wires against the plate with momentum E/c. The momenta cancel. Like I said before, momentum means motion. A non-moving object has no momentum. If the laser and the plate are held together with wires and don't move relative to each other or your observer, then you can't say that they have momentum. The wires are indeed under tension, because there is a force between the laser and the plate. This tension was created in the first instant the laser was turned on, and a small amount of its energy went into stretching the wires before it was all spent on heating the plate. From popserver Tue Nov 28 15:55:30 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["3150" "Tue" "28" "November" "1995" "09:04:41" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" "" "86" "Re: one question" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA09333; Tue, 28 Nov 95 07:02:46 PST Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Tue, 28 Nov 95 09:04:42 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199511280852.AAA19367@tzadkiel.efn.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 817573904.011 From: Kevin C Houston To: Steve VanDevender Cc: rddesign@wolfenet.com, Steve VanDevender , T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: one question Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 09:04:41 -0600 (CST) On Tue, 28 Nov 1995, Steve VanDevender wrote: > Kevin C. Houston writes: > > > Out in intergalactic space (far far away from all outside gravitational > > influences) you have the following setup: > > [ Figure turned sideways for brevity -- top -> ] Fine with me. > > > |--------------------------------------| > |######~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | > p = -E/c |######~~~~~L~A~S~E~R~~~~~~~~~~ | p = E/c > |######~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | > |--------------------------------------| > black plate > absorbs laser beam > # = laser > ~ = laser beam > - = support wires > > > The top plate (the absorber) is in thermal equilibrium with a large > > amount of solid Unobtainium m.p. 2.7 K, atomic mass = sqrt(-1) g/cm^3 > > so that there is no radiation from heat effects. power is provided by a > > small on-board power source > > You must shop at the same physics experiment supply store that I > do. That unobtainium sure is useful :-). > > > What happens when you turn on the laser? > > > > I'd say that it would just sit there, although you can clearly see that > > without the wires to hold them together, the laser source and the top > > plate would to move away from each other. > > You are correct. > > Although an actual device like this would actually move, but not > with any permanent velocity. As the laser heats the absorption that's the reson for the unobtainium, the melting never shifts above cosmic backround radiation level > plate, mass is transferred from the laser to the plate. As the > center of gravity shifts to the right (in my diagram) the > assembly would slide to the left. When the laser is turned off, > it would stop, then begin to slide slowly rightward as the plate > reheats the laser by radiation. > > > The wires are clearly dissipating a momentum equal to 2 E/C. > > that is what i was trying to say with my bb analogy. > > I'm not sure "dissipating momentum" is quite the term for it. > After all, the laser with momentum -E/c is tugging through the > wires against the plate with momentum E/c. The momenta cancel. > YES! That's what I've been saying all along! that a physical structure can transmit (through tugging) opposite momenta that can then cancel! > Like I said before, momentum means motion. A non-moving object > has no momentum. If the laser and the plate are held together > with wires and don't move relative to each other or your > observer, then you can't say that they have momentum. The laser imparts momentum when it leaves, and when it strikes the black plate. > > The wires are indeed under tension, because there is a force > between the laser and the plate. This tension was created in the > first instant the laser was turned on, and a small amount of its > energy went into stretching the wires before it was all spent on > heating the plate. > so you're saying that the plate heats more if it is held in place than if it was free to move? Kevin From popserver Tue Nov 28 22:13:51 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["444" "Tue" "28" "November" "1995" "18:09:43" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" "<199511281709.AA18223@student.utwente.nl>" "9" "Physics store" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA15729; Tue, 28 Nov 95 09:08:23 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA18223 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 28 Nov 1995 18:09:39 +0100 Message-Id: <199511281709.AA18223@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 817596604.006 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Physics store Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 18:09:43 +0100 Hey, Steve and Kevin can one of you give me the address of that special physics supply store? I can't find one in the yellow pages. I'd like to shop there and try to find an anti-gravity/anti-inertia device. Such a device would be most useful. No bulky engines, only small amounts of energy needed. Even high acceleration would not be a problem because our muscles would have the same strength but our bodies would have less inertia. Timothy From popserver Tue Nov 28 22:13:55 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["868" "Tue" "28" "November" "1995" "12:01:53" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "22" "Re: Physics store" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA18479; Tue, 28 Nov 95 10:03:09 PST Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Tue, 28 Nov 95 12:01:54 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199511281709.AA18223@student.utwente.nl> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 817596604.010 From: Kevin C Houston To: Timothy van der Linden Cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Physics store Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 12:01:53 -0600 (CST) On Tue, 28 Nov 1995, Timothy van der Linden wrote: > Hey, Steve and Kevin can one of you give me the address of that special > physics supply store? I can't find one in the yellow pages. I'd like to shop > there and try to find an anti-gravity/anti-inertia device. > Such a device would be most useful. No bulky engines, only small amounts of > energy needed. Even high acceleration would not be a problem because our > muscles would have the same strength but our bodies would have less inertia. > > Timothy > > Sure, no problem. I can't remember the exact address, but the directions are easy enough. Go down to the nearest corner. Take any street to be direction 'x', take the perpendicular street to be 'y', take the vertical direction to be 'z', now go two blocks in any direction that is perpendicular to 'x','y' _and_ 'z'. you can't miss it. %^) From popserver Tue Nov 28 22:14:00 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["540" "" "28" "November" "1995" "13:56:20" "-0500" "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" nil "17" "Re(2) Physics store" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from sage.cc.purdue.edu by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA22151; Tue, 28 Nov 95 11:01:09 PST Received: from bogie2.bio.purdue.edu (bogie2.bio.purdue.edu [128.210.65.16]) by sage.cc.purdue.edu (8.6.10/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA29371; Tue, 28 Nov 1995 13:53:48 -0500 Message-Id: X-UIDL: 817596604.013 From: "jim" To: "KellySt@aol.com" , "Kevin C Houston" , "rddesign@wolfenet.com" , "RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com" , "stevev@efn.org" , "Timothy van der Linden" , "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" Subject: Re(2) Physics store Date: 28 Nov 1995 13:56:20 -0500 I believe you mean "Acme Physics Warehouse". There are several, but this has the personal endorsement of Mr. Wile E. Coyote (Super-Genius). In addition to anti-gravity generators, they also do good a business in massless ropes, frictionless pulleys, and infinate lines and planes of charge. Kevin's directions were a bit incomplete, however. The address is as follows: Acme Physics Warehouse Box 3.14 Squared Circle Phone Number : (278) 182-8182 ext. 8 - Jim Cavera (Super-Genius) Sent with CTM PowerMail 1.0 From popserver Tue Nov 28 23:04:48 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4801" "Tue" "28" "November" "1995" "15:00:18" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "102" "Re: one question" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA07848; Tue, 28 Nov 95 14:56:53 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id PAA21239; Tue, 28 Nov 1995 15:00:18 -0800 Message-Id: <199511282300.PAA21239@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: References: <199511280852.AAA19367@tzadkiel.efn.org> X-UIDL: 817599675.000 From: Steve VanDevender To: Kevin C Houston Cc: Steve VanDevender , rddesign@wolfenet.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: one question Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 15:00:18 -0800 Kevin C. Houston writes: > > > The wires are clearly dissipating a momentum equal to 2 E/C. > > > that is what i was trying to say with my bb analogy. > > > > I'm not sure "dissipating momentum" is quite the term for it. > > After all, the laser with momentum -E/c is tugging through the > > wires against the plate with momentum E/c. The momenta cancel. > > YES! That's what I've been saying all along! that a physical structure > can transmit (through tugging) opposite momenta that can then cancel! I thought about deleting that paragraph ("I'm not sure 'dissipating momentum' . . . ") because it's not really consistent with my position that you only have momentum if you have motion. If the things don't move, they don't have momentum, or absorb momentum, or dissipate momentum. What I was really objecting to in your parasail design was not the idea that you had cancelling momenta, but that you thought that creating sideways momentum meant a decrease in forward momentum. For example, a device like this: E/c --v :::: p = [ 0 E/(2*c) ] |----------------------------------:::/| |######~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~::/ | |######~~~~~L~A~S~E~R~~~~~~~~~~~~~~:/ | beam splitter |######~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~:\ | |######~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~::\ | |----------------------------------:::\| :::: p = [ 0 -E/(2*c) ] # = laser ~ = laser light -- = wires also won't move. The beam splitter "absorbs momentum" just like the black absorbing plate did, even though it splits the beam into two beams traveling in the +y and -y directions. This setup also has the advantage of not requiring an unobtainium heat sink, as long as you get a Perfect Mirror (tm) from Acme Physics Warehouse. Without wires to hold the beam splitter in a fixed position with respect to the laser, it too would move away from the laser. It's critical to understand that momentum is a vector quantity to understand how the beam splitter can move, even though it is emitting two beams whose momentum magnitudes are both p/2 while it is picking up momentum with magnitude p from the laser. Although it is intuitive to think in terms of the magnitudes of the momentum components and then try to add those to account for system momentum, it's unfortunately wrong. Although the laser light carries momentum [ p 0 ] to the unbound beam splitter and the splitter, as a result of reflecting halves of the beam, produces two smaller beams with momentum [ 0 p/2 ] and [ 0 -p/2 ], those two beams add to momentum [ 0 0 ] -- they carry no forward momentum whatsoever; as a pair, they carry no momentum at all. Yet conservation of momentum requires that the total momentum remain [ p 0 ], and the only place this can show up is in the beam splitter itself. Since the beam splitter stopped all forward motion of the beam, it's not even that unintuitive that it should get the forward momentum. The ultimate case of absolutely needing to think of momentum as a vector quantity is when you have an object with zero momentum that splits into two or more objects with nonzero momenta. The vector sum of momenta of all the objects will still be zero, but in a sense momentum did come from nowhere since an unmoving object gave rise to motion. > > Like I said before, momentum means motion. A non-moving object > > has no momentum. If the laser and the plate are held together > > with wires and don't move relative to each other or your > > observer, then you can't say that they have momentum. > > The laser imparts momentum when it leaves, and when it strikes the black > plate. Once, during the time that the beam is in progress to the absrber plate. For much the same reasons that I don't like "relativistic mass", I don't like the notion of imparting momentum to a non-moving object. Clearly it has lead to some incorrect physical thinking. If something can't be put into uniform linear motion relative to something else, then it can't "absorb momentum" relative to that thing. > > The wires are indeed under tension, because there is a force > > between the laser and the plate. This tension was created in the > > first instant the laser was turned on, and a small amount of its > > energy went into stretching the wires before it was all spent on > > heating the plate. > > so you're saying that the plate heats more if it is held in place than if > it was free to move? Yes. If it was free to move, it would acquire velocity; as it acquired velocity, the light it received would become weaker due to doppler-shifting, and so the plate would receive less energy. If it is held in place, then it never has velocity relative to the laser, which always transmits the same energy per unit time to the plate. From popserver Tue Nov 28 23:30:10 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1319" "Tue" "28" "November" "1995" "15:28:18" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "25" "Physics store" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA09692; Tue, 28 Nov 95 15:24:51 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id PAA21310; Tue, 28 Nov 1995 15:28:18 -0800 Message-Id: <199511282328.PAA21310@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <199511281709.AA18223@student.utwente.nl> References: <199511281709.AA18223@student.utwente.nl> X-UIDL: 817601196.000 From: Steve VanDevender To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Physics store Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 15:28:18 -0800 Timothy van der Linden writes: > Hey, Steve and Kevin can one of you give me the address of that special > physics supply store? I can't find one in the yellow pages. I'd like to shop > there and try to find an anti-gravity/anti-inertia device. > Such a device would be most useful. No bulky engines, only small amounts of > energy needed. Even high acceleration would not be a problem because our > muscles would have the same strength but our bodies would have less inertia. > > Timothy Others have given you the address of the Acme Physics Warehouse. The stuff you want is probably in the "Cartoon Physics" section; the "Real Physics" section just has stuff like point masses, frictionless surface coatings, and ideal gases. You can do antigravity in several ways. One is to keep a suspended creature permanently in ignorance of its altitude with special blinders; as you know, creatures won't fall until they know they are above a canyon. Another is to surprise a creature, causing it to levitate above the ground, then keep it in that state; you can get boxes of carefully bred mice that are easily surprised. Someone in love will float above the ground, and can be tugged around simply by the scent of the loved one, implying minimal inertia; tailored "love drugs" can be used to induce this state. From popserver Tue Nov 28 23:50:36 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1860" "Tue" "28" "November" "1995" "15:47:04" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "43" "Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA10985; Tue, 28 Nov 95 15:43:37 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id PAA21352; Tue, 28 Nov 1995 15:47:04 -0800 Message-Id: <199511282347.PAA21352@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <199511280805.AA25072@student.utwente.nl> References: <199511280805.AA25072@student.utwente.nl> X-UIDL: 817602415.000 From: Steve VanDevender To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 15:47:04 -0800 Timothy van der Linden writes: > Am I right saying the following: > > Photons loose energy because they accelerate the car. Only because of that > acceleration their frequency is lowered. > Because it takes more energy to transfer the same amount of momentum to a > faster moving car (E=v^2 versus p=v) the frequency is lowered even more. There is one important constraint in this situation: photons _always_ have equal momentum and energy; hence a photon reflecting off a moving object must impart equal amounts of momentum and energy to it. A photon has less energy when seen from the frame of a fast-moving object moving in the same direction as the photon, so in the object frame the photon imparts less momentum to the object. Seen from the observer's frame, the photon loses more momentum to a receding fast-moving object than a slow-moving one. Remember that reflecting objects moving opposite to the direction of the incident photons actually impart energy and momentum to the photons; in the object frame the photon has more energy and momentum. > After all this, can we conclude a charged battery is heavier than an > uncharged battery? Yes, this is also true. Hot objects are heavier than cold ones (although not by an amount we have equipment to measure). A mirrored box full of photons is heavier than the empty box. > Steve writes: > >The reality that static stress does not continue to dissipate > >energy over time is not intuitive, because our muscles aren't > >static structures like boards or rods or wires; they must > >dissipate energy even to hold a weight motionless above your > >head, while a table holding the same weight does not dissipate > >energy. > > Yes, in fact is does not take any energy to keep floating a few metres above > Earth's surface. Well, it depends on how you make the object float. From popserver Wed Nov 29 00:00:51 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["512" "Wed" "29" "November" "1995" "00:56:57" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "12" "Re: Re(2) Physics store" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA11563; Tue, 28 Nov 95 15:54:14 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA15487 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 29 Nov 1995 00:56:53 +0100 Message-Id: <199511282356.AA15487@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 817603036.001 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Re(2) Physics store Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 00:56:57 +0100 Steve, I had a hard time figuring out where to go, fortunately Jim's message reached me before I got lost completely. I talked to Mr. Wile and asked him for the anti-grav. equipment. He told me somebody had been there before me, just one hour earlier and bought the last one. He already had ordered new ones but did not know yet when they would arrive. It was possible to reserve one, so I did. I almost can't wait untill I can use it. When I have got equipment, I will tell you guys more about it... Timothy From popserver Wed Nov 29 05:52:10 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["1536" "Tue" "28" "November" "1995" "20:38:55" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" "<951128203350_119181713@emout06.mail.aol.com>" "33" "Re: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea." "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA17882; Tue, 28 Nov 95 17:37:25 PST Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA24591; Tue, 28 Nov 1995 20:38:55 -0500 Message-Id: <951128203350_119181713@emout06.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 817624104.001 From: KellySt@aol.com To: stevev@efn.org Cc: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea. Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 20:38:55 -0500 >> Besides not treating momentum as a vector quantity, people are >> making the mistake of thinking that lateral loading of the sail >> assembly is a magical sink for momentum or energy. The error is >> in thinking that stress on a static structure absorbs energy or >> momentum continuously over time. If the sail does not move >> relative to the ship, then it cannot absorb or dissipate momentum >> separately from the ship. It cannot absorb momentum if it does >> not move, because momentum means motion. ---- (??!) Thats like the old argument that if a tractor is pushing against a wall its doing no work, since the wall isn't accelerated. The sail is getting a thrust that is perpendicular to the surface of reflection. If you want to describe the portion of the thrust that isn't accelerating the ship as invalid, enjoy. But when you start to mutter things like: >> ---as long as the sail does not fall apart or the support >> members do not break, no more energy is dissipated into >> loading of the sail structure. We have a problem. A considerable amount of energy will be continuously loaded and (hopefully) disapated by the sail cross webbing. If we don't consider it, and make sure the structure can disapate it, the cross cables will melt under the energy they have to disapate under this lateral thrust load. One very consistent problem in LIT over the last year has been a very limited interest in the engineering realities of a situation, and to much fondness for endless equation wars. Kelly From popserver Wed Nov 29 05:52:32 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["467" "Tue" "28" "November" "1995" "21:52:43" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "13" "Re: Re(2) Physics store" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA21876; Tue, 28 Nov 95 18:50:36 PST Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA13914; Tue, 28 Nov 1995 21:52:43 -0500 Message-Id: <951128215241_37461372@emout04.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 817624104.012 From: KellySt@aol.com To: jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, stevev@efn.org, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Re(2) Physics store Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 21:52:43 -0500 >> I believe you mean "Acme Physics Warehouse". There are >> several, but this has the personal endorsement of Mr. >> Wile E. Coyote (Super-Genius). In addition to >> anti-gravity generators, they also do good a business in >> massless ropes, frictionless pulleys, and infinate lines >> and planes of charge. >> - Jim Cavera (Super-Genius) Hum -- If they have used hydrive, or some of the Star Trek gobbdy gook physics we're in busness!! ;) Kelly Starks From popserver Wed Nov 29 05:52:33 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6330" "Tue" "28" "November" "1995" "21:52:07" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "140" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA21944; Tue, 28 Nov 95 18:51:41 PST Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA02539; Tue, 28 Nov 1995 21:52:07 -0500 Message-Id: <951128215138_37459926@mail02.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 817624104.013 From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 21:52:07 -0500 Replyto : Timothy >>> Externally fueled did that mean scooping? I'm not sure >>> anymore, please tell me if my assumption is right. > >Not quite. In my Exporer ship design I assumed the fusion fuel was launched >ahead of the ship with a linear accelerator. As the ship accelerates it >contiually scoops up pre launched fuel going at nearly its speed. So the >ship looses very little momentum scooping up the fuel packets. That would >allow you to get up to light speed with "only" 200 times the ships mas in >fusion fuel. However like Kevins system. We have a serious problem stoping. > I though using a ramscope to produce a lot of drag might do it, but never >found a good woorkup of the numbers. >> This method of prelaunching fuel packets will cost the >> same amount of energy that is needed if you take those >> same packets with you from the start. True, but since the ship doesn't have to supply the energy, it saves an incredable amount of fuel. To put it bluntly no fusion powered ship could carry enough fuel, to accelerate itself and its fuel up to high reletivistic speeds. Estimates are that a ship would need a 1,000,000 to 1 fuel to ship mass ratio to get up to $10 of light speed. But if the ship doesn't have to carry its fuel, a 200 to 1 ratio could get you most of the way to light speed (or was that 1/3rd light speed. Been a while since GES ran the numbers off for me.) >By the way. Did anyone calculate the drag on the sail structure from >interstelar debre? If you can maintain enough of an electric charge to use >the microwave sail as a parachute that might help with stoping. >> The problem is that there are no accurate numbers of >> the density of interstellar debris. So any number is almost >> a guess. Thats been a constand problem for us. How do you design a ship to travel through something you know next to nothing about? ============================================================================== == >Question. >Diverted beams of photons converge on a forward pointing cone. This (not >considering the beam cancelation due to interfearence, reflection loses, and >other such nonsence) is the origional beam moving forward in a much more >concentrated form than its pre sail moments. Net thrust to the ship near zip >(give or take). In frount of this stream we put an ionized reaction mass. > Beam slams into it and throws it forward. > >A) A lot of the beam (most?) would reflect back off the ionized reaction mass >(micro-waves do that off ionized matter) Would this act as Forward's >sacrificial outer-sail in "Dragons egg (?)"? I.E. could we use the forwardly >reflected beam for drive power? Efectivly the reaction mass (now renamed >plasma reflection mass) has gotten boosted forward at a hellish speed, but >bounced the beam back down our throats. (Just like Forwards outer drop >sail.) We would have to continuously replenish this "reflection mass", but >on the bright side we could be very sure it will clean all the interstellar >mass out from in frount of the ship. ;) >> Replenishing the "mirror" will probably take lots of ions >> or in other words mass that has to be taken with us. Agreed, but it don't have a handel on the amount of mass. (Hey it sounds better than Forwards ring sail trick.) >> Also using such a light (non heavy) sail will mean that >> the "mirror" is accelerated a lot and lot of energy is lost >> due to the Doppler effect. Given that the mirror is the surface of a plasma, and said plasma is being continuously being replenished. I'm not sure the reflective "surface" is actually moving? Althou obviously the particals in the plasma are moving (and accelerating) rapidly. Are the micro waves reflecting off the particals? Or off the area where the plasma is ionized enough to reflect them? >> Also I have doubts how well the "mirror" reflects, ionized >> particles attract or repell each other so, it won't take long >> befor the "mirror" has destroyed itself. The ions in a plasma of the same material wil repell each other. You might be able to do some magnetic tricks to hold it, but it probably wouldn't be worth the trouble. [ Hum --- I wounder if you could wiggle the exausting plasma to for a laser to get back some of the energy? ] As to reflectivity. That would depend on the nature of the plasma and a lot of other variables. This is probably not a question we could easily figure out for ourselves. >B) >Instead of just dumping this superheated reflect mass forward. How about >using it as a rocket stream also. At the least we can ride the expanding >shock wave from the stuff. >> Shock wave? I don't understand, please explain again. You have a mass of plasma being hit with E18 of energy. It will be HOT, and highly ionized. It will be explosivly expanding. The light pressure of the beam (or the feed mass) will probably keep it from flowing straight up the beam. But it will be moving rapidly to the sides and forward or the ship. We should be able to tap this for thrust. >Anyway, between A & B we have used part of the beam to create a high temp >plasma thurst, and reflected the rest off said plasma onto a rearwardly >reflective part of the ship. Momentum/kinetic energy interactions between >the beam and the ship are pretty much canceled out until it hits the >reaction/reflection mass. The ship needs NO POWER CONVERTERS! We never >convert it to electricity to drive an accelerator. (Ok, ok, we convert a >little to run the ship and power the magnetic feilds that keep the plasma off >the back of the ship.) But other than that, we just reflect it around and >feed it mass. ============================================================================== Steve writes: >The reality that static stress does not continue to dissipate >energy over time is not intuitive, because our muscles aren't >static structures like boards or rods or wires; they must >dissipate energy even to hold a weight motionless above your >head, while a table holding the same weight does not dissipate >energy. >> Yes, in fact is does not take any energy to keep floating a >> few metres above Earth's surface. (???????!!!!!!) SAY WHAT!! Unless we're on differnt planets you have to generate or disapate as much energy as to generate 9.8 m/s^2 of acceleration. Kelly Starks From popserver Wed Nov 29 05:52:36 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["451" "Tue" "28" "November" "1995" "21:52:58" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "14" "Re: Physics store" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA22018; Tue, 28 Nov 95 18:52:51 PST Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA14173; Tue, 28 Nov 1995 21:52:58 -0500 Message-Id: <951128215251_37461691@emout04.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 817624104.014 From: KellySt@aol.com To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Cc: stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Physics store Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 21:52:58 -0500 >> I can't remember the exact address, but the directions >> are easy enough. >> Go down to the nearest corner. Take any street to be >> direction 'x', take the perpendicular street to be 'y', take >> the vertical direction to be 'z', now go two blocks in any >> direction that is perpendicular to 'x','y' _and_ 'z'. you >> can't miss it. %^) {:}-( Kev, I think your finals are starting to get to you. You need to lie down for a while! From popserver Wed Nov 29 05:52:37 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["1035" "Tue" "28" "November" "1995" "21:52:14" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" "<951128215159_37460474@mail02.mail.aol.com>" "27" "Re: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea." "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA21916; Tue, 28 Nov 95 18:53:21 PST Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA02638; Tue, 28 Nov 1995 21:52:14 -0500 Message-Id: <951128215159_37460474@mail02.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 817624104.015 From: KellySt@aol.com To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org Cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea. Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 21:52:14 -0500 On Mon, 27 Nov 1995, Steve VanDevender wrote: > Kevin C. Houston writes: > > the "momentum" happens every second, so it's actually an acelleration. > > That won't get you out of conservation of momentum. The system > must change momentum per unit time to equal the amount of > momentum added per unit time. > > > many structures (static tho they be) resist continuous acceleration all > > the time by providing opposing compressive or tensile forces > > The opposing forces are some finite amount of energy that is > loaded into the system once. Once the structure is loaded it > does not absorb any more energy. > > If a static structure had to dissipate energy continuously to > remain standing, where would such energy come from? Why doesn't > your house fall down? Where are the batteries? The energy is coming from the gravitational attraction of the earth. It is disapated as heat in the structure of the house. In a structure under heavy loads (too heavy) you can feel the heat in the structure. Kelly Starks From popserver Wed Nov 29 06:03:14 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["680" "Tue" "28" "November" "1995" "22:00:49" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "16" "Re: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea." "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA02264; Tue, 28 Nov 95 21:57:21 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id WAA00313; Tue, 28 Nov 1995 22:00:49 -0800 Message-Id: <199511290600.WAA00313@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <951128215159_37460474@mail02.mail.aol.com> References: <951128215159_37460474@mail02.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 817624769.000 From: Steve VanDevender To: KellySt@aol.com Cc: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea. Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 22:00:49 -0800 KellySt@aol.com writes: > > If a static structure had to dissipate energy continuously to > > remain standing, where would such energy come from? Why doesn't > > your house fall down? Where are the batteries? > > The energy is coming from the gravitational attraction of the earth. It is > disapated as heat in the structure of the house. In a structure under heavy > loads (too heavy) you can feel the heat in the structure. Really? So when does the earth run out of gravity? I think you've spent too much time in the Cartoon Physics section of Acme Physics Warehouse. Tell me about one of these structures that I can go visit, put my hand on, and feel the heat. From popserver Wed Nov 29 21:34:24 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3975" "Wed" "29" "November" "1995" "11:36:38" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "102" "Re: one question" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA14433; Wed, 29 Nov 95 02:33:53 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA17411 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 29 Nov 1995 11:36:33 +0100 Message-Id: <199511291036.AA17411@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 817680631.001 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: one question Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 11:36:38 +0100 To: Steve and Kevin >For much the same reasons that I don't like "relativistic mass", >I don't like the notion of imparting momentum to a non-moving >object. Clearly it has lead to some incorrect physical >thinking. If something can't be put into uniform linear motion >relative to something else, then it can't "absorb momentum" >relative to that thing. While for relativistic mass there is just a different word for the same thing, there is in this case no other word. The word that here is invented is "imparted momentum" which should replaced by the word "energy". Timothy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Physics store >Others have given you the address of the Acme Physics Warehouse. >The stuff you want is probably in the "Cartoon Physics" section; >the "Real Physics" section just has stuff like point masses, >frictionless surface coatings, and ideal gases. I'm not sure, that unobtanium with its negative mass seemed to come from the same store. But if you are right, then that Wile guy has lied to me and probably is on the run with my down payment. :( >You can do antigravity in several ways. One is to keep a >suspended creature permanently in ignorance of its altitude with >special blinders; as you know, creatures won't fall until they >know they are above a canyon. Another is to surprise a creature, >causing it to levitate above the ground, then keep it in that >state; you can get boxes of carefully bred mice that are easily >surprised. Someone in love will float above the ground, and can >be tugged around simply by the scent of the loved one, implying >minimal inertia; tailored "love drugs" can be used to induce this >state. All these examples seem to have some mental control mechanism. That probably means that I have to do a lot of yoga lessons first. Timothy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To: Steve >There is one important constraint in this situation: photons >_always_ have equal momentum and energy; hence a photon >reflecting off a moving object must impart equal amounts of >momentum and energy to it. Yes, I was aware of that: U = p c >A photon has less energy when seen from the frame of a >fast-moving object moving in the same direction as the photon, so >in the object frame the photon imparts less momentum to the >object. Seen from the observer's frame, the photon loses more >momentum to a receding fast-moving object than a slow-moving one. Indeed, that would make it right in all frames. >Remember that reflecting objects moving opposite to the direction >of the incident photons actually impart energy and momentum to >the photons; in the object frame the photon has more energy and >momentum. Yes, because the moving observer would see a higher energy than an observer at rest. > > After all this, can we conclude a charged battery is heavier than an > > uncharged battery? > >Yes, this is also true. Hot objects are heavier than cold ones >(although not by an amount we have equipment to measure). A >mirrored box full of photons is heavier than the empty box. And it doesn't matter if they all move parallel and in the same direction all the time, right? Here is another one: If two particles feel the gravity of each other, then they are heavier together than if they are separate because of the extra gravitational energy. > > Yes, in fact is does not take any energy to keep floating a few metres above > > Earth's surface. > >Well, it depends on how you make the object float. No, if you for example use a helicopter, it does not take energy to stay at that height but it does take energy to move all the air. A true anti-gravity source would only have to build up a anti-gravity field once and does not use energy to stay at a certain heigh. If you use two magnets or two charged plates (both positive or negative) they also would not use any energy after you levitated. Timothy From popserver Thu Nov 30 08:27:17 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6897" "Thu" "30" "November" "1995" "09:21:50" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "172" "Engineering newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA25659; Thu, 30 Nov 95 00:19:01 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA24811 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 30 Nov 1995 09:21:43 +0100 Message-Id: <199511300821.AA24811@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 817719805.000 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Engineering newsletter Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 09:21:50 +0100 Bb accident, I mailed this letter only to Kelly yesterday. So here is it for the rest of you. Subject : (Star)Wars > > One very consistent problem in LIT over the last year has been > > a very limited interest in the engineering realities of a > > situation, and to much fondness for endless equation wars. > >These are not equation wars; as this message shows, you don't >always have to use math to talk about physics. We are talking >about very real physics concepts, and I'm afraid you are the one >who has a few important ones wrong. > >Before we can do the detailed engineering for a starship, we need >to understand what physical constraints it will be under. Even >the best engineering cannot violate the laws of physics. If we >are engaged in "equation wars", it is because we are trying to >figure out the limits of what is possible before we do detailed >design work based on faulty assumptions. This is the most >fundamental interest in engineering realities you could want. Steve, I've nothing to add, you're completely right. Timothy =============================================================================== ReplyTo : Kelly >From : Timothy Subject : Prelaunching >>> This method of prelaunching fuel packets will cost the >>> same amount of energy that is needed if you take those >>> same packets with you from the start. > >True, but since the ship doesn't have to supply the energy, it saves an >incredable amount of fuel. The ship does not have to supply the energy! It will leave fully fueled. It is still accelerated by some kind of photon beam. >To put it bluntly no fusion powered ship could >carry enough fuel, to accelerate itself and its fuel up to high reletivistic >speeds. Estimates are that a ship would need a 1,000,000 to 1 fuel to ship >mass ratio to get up to $10 of light speed. But if the ship doesn't have to >carry its fuel, a 200 to 1 ratio could get you most of the way to light speed >(or was that 1/3rd light speed. Been a while since GES ran the numbers off >for me.) Huh, if it doesn't carry its fuel, how do you calculate a ratio? !! Please be specific if you mean FUEL or REACTION MASS !! >>> The problem is that there are no accurate numbers of >>> the density of interstellar debris. So any number is almost >>> a guess. > >Thats been a constand problem for us. How do you design a ship to travel >through something you know next to nothing about? It would be best if we could find a solution without using the interstellar particles, but at the same time we should keep in mind that we have to protect us against it. This may sound a bit contradictory but a general solution would be best. =========================================================================== ReplyTo : Kelly >From : Timothy Subject : Plasma mirror >>> Replenishing the "mirror" will probably take lots of ions >>> or in other words mass that has to be taken with us. > >Agreed, but it don't have a handel on the amount of mass. Why doesn't it have to do with the amount of mass? Ions are particles too. They may have small masses, but if you have enough of them you could build a complete dragon-fly sail. >>> Also using such a light (non heavy) sail will mean that >>> the "mirror" is accelerated a lot and lot of energy is lost >>> due to the Doppler effect. > >Given that the mirror is the surface of a plasma, and said plasma is being >continuously being replenished. I'm not sure the reflective "surface" is >actually moving? Althou obviously the particals in the plasma are moving >(and accelerating) rapidly. Are the micro waves reflecting off the >particals? Or off the area where the plasma is ionized enough to reflect >them? Probably all the way in between. But that is not important here, because a reflection means transfer of momentum, and with it energy. Since the plasma will be accelerated a lot, it will retrieve a lot of energy. >>> Also I have doubts how well the "mirror" reflects, ionized >>> particles attract or repell each other so, it won't take long >>> befor the "mirror" has destroyed itself. > >The ions in a plasma of the same material wil repell each other. You might >be able to do some magnetic tricks to hold it, but it probably wouldn't be >worth the trouble. > >[ Hum --- I wounder if you could wiggle the exausting plasma to for a laser >to get back some of the energy? ] Don't talk about plasma as if it where some easy to control stuff. The movement of the plasma itself would create magnetic fields. It's like boiling water but much worse. >As to reflectivity. That would depend on the nature of the plasma and a lot >of other variables. This is probably not a question we could easily figure >out for ourselves. >>> Shock wave? I don't understand, please explain again. > >You have a mass of plasma being hit with E18 of energy. It will be HOT, and >highly ionized. It will be explosivly expanding. The light pressure of the >beam (or the feed mass) will probably keep it from flowing straight up the >beam. But it will be moving rapidly to the sides and forward or the ship. > We should be able to tap this for thrust. My guess is that this shock wave will move mostly forward instead of backward. You seem to want to do the same thing Kevin did: Make a easy thing complicated and so loose complete control over what you are doing. Whatever method you can think of, it will take just as much energy that the dragon-fly-sail will use. ============================================================================== ReplyTo : Kelly >From : Timothy Subject : Floating <> flying >>> Yes, in fact is does not take any energy to keep floating a >>> few metres above Earth's surface. > >(???????!!!!!!) SAY WHAT!! Unless we're on differnt planets you have to >generate or disapate as much energy as to generate 9.8 m/s^2 of acceleration. No, I wasn't in the Acme physics store... I refer to the answer I wrote to Steve about this same thing and add some formulas: F = m a U = F s = m a s P = U / t Where F=force, U=energy, m=mass, a=acceleration, s=distance_moved, t=time_needed In 4.3 seconds I will evenly pull a mass of 1.3 kg 2.6 metres up in Earth's g=9.8 m/s^2 That will take a force F=1.3*9.8=12.74 Newton and an amount of energy U=12.74*2.6=33.124 Joule and will take a power of P=33.124/4.3=7.703 Watt So if we are talking about weightlifting, there are several phases. First the weightlifter has to get the weight from the ground to up his head. That is where the real energy is needed, since there is a distance of movement involved. After he/she has lifted the weight and keeps it above his/her head the real work is done. All that the weightlifter has to do is keep his muscles in place. But that energy is not added to the weights. Often it is more difficult to get the weight up than to keep it there, that is just because of this reason. From popserver Fri Dec 1 21:18:52 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["671" "Fri" "1" "December" "1995" "12:23:58" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "16" "Too bad" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA12288; Fri, 1 Dec 95 03:21:07 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA22517 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:23:47 +0100 Message-Id: <199512011123.AA22517@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 817852487.000 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Too bad Date: Fri, 01 Dec 1995 12:23:58 +0100 Here some great idea, but not really... Space is "filled" with the so called background radiation, right? What would happen to an object that has a perfect mirror on one side? Right, the mirror would reflect the background radiation. So this extra momentum at that one side would make the object move in the opposite direction. Wow, this makes movement easy, but not really... Since the background radiation is so small you would need enormous mirrors of light weight. Probably solar radiation over 10 ly. would work even better. So, too bad, if only the background radiation was about 500 Kelvin, but probably that would cook us all... OK, next time better. Timothy From popserver Fri Dec 1 21:18:54 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["1826" "Fri" "1" "December" "1995" "07:24:10" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" "" "45" "Re: one question" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA14918; Fri, 1 Dec 95 05:21:56 PST Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Fri, 1 Dec 95 07:24:11 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199511282300.PAA21239@tzadkiel.efn.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 817852487.001 From: Kevin C Houston To: Steve VanDevender Cc: Steve VanDevender , rddesign@wolfenet.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: one question Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 07:24:10 -0600 (CST) On Tue, 28 Nov 1995, Steve VanDevender wrote: > What I was really objecting to in your parasail design was not > the idea that you had cancelling momenta, but that you thought > that creating sideways momentum meant a decrease in forward > momentum. For example, a device like this: > > > E/c --v :::: p = [ 0 E/(2*c) ] > |----------------------------------:::/| > |######~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~::/ | > |######~~~~~L~A~S~E~R~~~~~~~~~~~~~~:/ | beam splitter > |######~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~:\ | > |######~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~::\ | > |----------------------------------:::\| > :::: p = [ 0 -E/(2*c) ] > > # = laser ~ = laser light -- = wires > > also won't move. The beam splitter "absorbs momentum" just like > the black absorbing plate did, even though it splits the beam > into two beams traveling in the +y and -y directions. This setup > also has the advantage of not requiring an unobtainium heat sink, > as long as you get a Perfect Mirror (tm) from Acme Physics > Warehouse. So you're saying that the beam splitter above would move at the same speed as a absorbtion plate of the same mass? > > > The wires are indeed under tension, because there is a force > > > between the laser and the plate. This tension was created in the > > > first instant the laser was turned on, and a small amount of its > > > energy went into stretching the wires before it was all spent on > > > heating the plate. > > I've always been taught to view atomic bonds as tiny springs which obey hookes law F=kx where k is some constant. this is the force that balances the force of the laser / absorber plate. Is this view correct? Doesn't a spring provide a constant force as long as it's stretched from it's initial position? From popserver Fri Dec 1 22:10:45 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2934" "Fri" "1" "December" "1995" "14:06:26" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "59" "Re: one question" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA14297; Fri, 1 Dec 95 14:02:40 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) id OAA02463; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:06:26 -0800 Message-Id: <199512012206.OAA02463@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: References: <199511282300.PAA21239@tzadkiel.efn.org> X-UIDL: 817855596.001 From: Steve VanDevender To: Kevin C Houston Cc: Steve VanDevender , rddesign@wolfenet.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: one question Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:06:26 -0800 Kevin C. Houston writes: > > For example, a device like this: > > > > > > E/c --v :::: p = [ 0 E/(2*c) ] > > |----------------------------------:::/| > > |######~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~::/ | > > |######~~~~~L~A~S~E~R~~~~~~~~~~~~~~:/ | beam splitter > > |######~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~:\ | > > |######~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~::\ | > > |----------------------------------:::\| > > :::: p = [ 0 -E/(2*c) ] > > > > # = laser ~ = laser light -- = wires > > > > also won't move. The beam splitter "absorbs momentum" just like > > the black absorbing plate did, even though it splits the beam > > into two beams traveling in the +y and -y directions. This setup > > also has the advantage of not requiring an unobtainium heat sink, > > as long as you get a Perfect Mirror (tm) from Acme Physics > > Warehouse. > > So you're saying that the beam splitter above would move at the same > speed as a absorbtion plate of the same mass? It would get momentum p from a beam with momentum p just like the perfect absorber would. However, over time it would end up at a higher speed than the absorber because it does not increase in mass over time like the absorber does. The absorber develops momenergy [ m+p p 0 0 ] after absorbing photons with momenergy [ p p 0 0 ], so its mass increases to sqrt(m^2 + 2 * p * m) (if p << m, this approximates to m + p), while the beam splitter develops momenergy [ sqrt(m^2+p^2) p 0 0 ] from splitting the same beam because its mass remains a constant m. Hence the velocity of the absorber after absorbing light with momentum p is p / sqrt(m^2 + 2*p*m), while the velocity of the beam splitter is p / sqrt(m^2 + p^2). > > > > The wires are indeed under tension, because there is a force > > > > between the laser and the plate. This tension was created in the > > > > first instant the laser was turned on, and a small amount of its > > > > energy went into stretching the wires before it was all spent on > > > > heating the plate. > I've always been taught to view atomic bonds as tiny springs which obey > hookes law F=kx where k is some constant. this is the force that > balances the force of the laser / absorber plate. Is this view correct? > Doesn't a spring provide a constant force as long as it's stretched from > it's initial position? Note that F = k * x means that the force varies linearly with displacement, so increasing displacement means increasing force. A spring provides constant force as long as it remains stretched the same amount. This may be what you meant above, but you don't seem to make the distinction that the spring force varies with displacement. F = k * x is approximately correct for "ideal" springs and small displacements and may be valid for normal materials under small amounts of tension or compression; I don't know for sure. From popserver Sun Dec 3 01:21:14 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["4714" "Sat" "2" "December" "1995" "20:07:37" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" "<951202200736_42256412@emout05.mail.aol.com>" "119" "Re: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea." "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA15503; Sat, 2 Dec 95 17:05:09 PST Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA15378; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:07:37 -0500 Message-Id: <951202200736_42256412@emout05.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 817953394.014 From: KellySt@aol.com To: stevev@efn.org Cc: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea. Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:07:37 -0500 to: stevev@efn.org > > If a static structure had to dissipate energy continuously to > > remain standing, where would such energy come from? Why doesn't > > your house fall down? Where are the batteries? > > The energy is coming from the gravitational attraction of the earth. It is > disapated as heat in the structure of the house. In a structure under heavy > loads (too heavy) you can feel the heat in the structure. Steve>> Really? So when does the earth run out of gravity? When space gets tired of curving? ;) Steve>> I think you've spent too much time in the Cartoon Steve>> Physics section of Acme Physics Warehouse. Steve>> Tell me about one of these structures that I can go Steve>> visit, put my hand on, and feel the heat. Over stressed cable stayed structures are about the only ones I've delt with that I could feel the differnce in. Others are too low to feel, but insterments can detect it. ======================================================== : stevev@efn.org KellySt@aol.com writes: > >> Besides not treating momentum as a vector quantity, people are > >> making the mistake of thinking that lateral loading of the sail > >> assembly is a magical sink for momentum or energy. The error is > >> in thinking that stress on a static structure absorbs energy or > >> momentum continuously over time. If the sail does not move > >> relative to the ship, then it cannot absorb or dissipate momentum > >> separately from the ship. It cannot absorb momentum if it does > >> not move, because momentum means motion. ---- > > (??!) > Thats like the old argument that if a tractor is pushing against a wall its > doing no work, since the wall isn't accelerated. The sail is getting a > thrust that is perpendicular to the surface of reflection. If you want to > describe the portion of the thrust that isn't accelerating the ship as > invalid, enjoy. S >> The tractor is dissipating energy because it contains S >> moving parts in its engine and drive train that keep S >> moving even though the tractor chassis and the wall S >> are not. Now whos trying to talk their way out of a corner. Try a direct drive electric tractor. Nothing turns unless the vehical moves. So where does the power go if nothing moves? -- S >> Lean a board against the wall. Does it dissipate energy S >> because it can't move the wall? Lean a heavy iron bar S >> against the wall. Does it dissipate more energy than S >> the board? They are under a constant 1 g thrust. They are under the load resisting that takes. Where do you think that power goes? S >> Are the bricks at the bottom of the wall permanently S >> warmer than the bricks at the top because they are under S >> compression? Yes. S >> --- You can't claim that gravity is continuously pumping S >> energy into the objects; you can't gain or lose energy if S >> you don't move up or down in a gravity field. If non-moving structures are not continuously being subjected to a force, what keeps them under continuous presure? Something is crushing their molecular structures enough to put them under a load. If that presure was removed, or droped, they would expand. In the same way the structure in the sail bracing is under continuous stress. S >> My intention was to prove that Kevin's parasail design S >> couldn't absorb photons without absorbing their S >> momentum. But you can divert the thrust vectors to a non-forward direction. in a reflection. Its not going to buy you anything is you later absorb the photons anyway, but it is a usefull trick to move the beam around without geting shoved by it. (Frankly with all the bouncing, have defined equations getting tossed around I'm not sure if that was Kevins point anymore.) s >> You seem to have a real misunderstanding of the s >> difference between work and potential. When you put a s >> structure under tension or compression, you do change s >> its energy, ONCE, when you slightly pull apart or scrunch s >> together Actually, I'm probably not being as clear as I might be. However, the differnce if fairly accademic as far as the ships concerned. > One very consistent problem in LIT over the last year has been > a very limited interest in the engineering realities of a > situation, and to much fondness for endless equation wars. s >> These are not equation wars; as this message shows, you s >> don't always have to use math to talk about physics. But in the Equation wars, no one was using anything but equations (usually not well explained or defined). This not only caused confusion to everyone else, it frequently tripped up the person making the statment Kelly From popserver Sun Dec 3 01:21:17 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil t t nil nil nil nil] ["412" "Sat" "2" "December" "1995" "20:07:48" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" "<951202200747_42256550@emout04.mail.aol.com>" "17" "Re: one question" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA15518; Sat, 2 Dec 95 17:05:38 PST Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA13841; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:07:48 -0500 Message-Id: <951202200747_42256550@emout04.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 817953394.015 From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: one question Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:07:48 -0500 >> > > Yes, in fact is does not take any energy to keep floating a few metres above >> > > Earth's surface. > >> >Well, it depends on how you make the object float. >> No, if you for example use a helicopter, it does not take energy to stay at >> that height but it does take energy to move all the air. >> Timothy Hold your arm out to you side. Tell me it takes no effort (energy) to hold it there. Kelly From popserver Sun Dec 3 01:21:18 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["7156" "Sat" "2" "December" "1995" "20:08:04" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "171" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA15541; Sat, 2 Dec 95 17:06:18 PST Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA13942; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:08:04 -0500 Message-Id: <951202200804_42256799@emout04.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 817953394.016 From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:08:04 -0500 >From : Timothy Subject : Prelaunching >>> This method of prelaunching fuel packets will cost the >>> same amount of energy that is needed if you take those >>> same packets with you from the start. > >True, but since the ship doesn't have to supply the energy, it saves an >incredable amount of fuel. TV > The ship does not have to supply the energy! It will leave TV > fully fueled. It is still accelerated by some kind of TV > photon beam. No, Kevins starship design is propelled by a photon (maser) beam. My origional Explorer design is propelled by fusion powered mass drivers. I call it an externally feed system since the fuel is thrown out ahead of the ship by a launcher in Sol. (See my Explorer starship design page on the LIT site.) Thats probably the central thing confusing you. Unless your confusing the Explorer ship with the plasma mirror design I came up with more recently. >To put it bluntly no fusion powered ship could >carry enough fuel, to accelerate itself and its fuel up to high reletivistic >speeds. Estimates are that a ship would need a 1,000,000 to 1 fuel to ship >mass ratio to get up to 10% of light speed. But if the ship doesn't have to >carry its fuel, a 200 to 1 ratio could get you most of the way to light speed >(or was that 1/3rd light speed. Been a while since GES ran the numbers off >for me.) TV > Huh, if it doesn't carry its fuel, how do you calculate a ratio? Figure out how much fuel it would take to run the reactors & engines enough to accelerate the ship (but not its fuel) up to speed. TV > !! Please be specific if you mean FUEL or REACTION MASS !! I was being specific. I ment fuel. (Thou I suppose you could save some bucks by adding in extra reaction mass to the launched shipments.) >>> The problem is that there are no accurate numbers of >>> the density of interstellar debris. So any number is almost >>> a guess. > >Thats been a constand problem for us. How do you design a ship to travel >through something you know next to nothing about? TV > It would be best if we could find a solution without using the interstellar TV > particles, but at the same time we should keep in mind TV > that we have to protect us against it. This may sound a TV > bit contradictory but a general solution would be best. How about working out a high and low range based on the most and least mass expected out there? =========================================================================== ReplyTo : Kelly >From : Timothy Subject : Plasma mirror >>> Replenishing the "mirror" will probably take lots of ions >>> or in other words mass that has to be taken with us. > >Agreed, but I don't have a handel on the amount of mass. TV > Why doesn't it have to do with the amount of mass? Don't understand you question. I was assuming it would depend on the mass, but I didn't know how much mass that would be. TV > Ions are particles too. They may have small masses, TV > but if you have enough of them you could build a TV > complete dragon-fly sail. I don't know which system would be lighter, but of course we couldn't build the dragon-fly system, so thats kind of a mute point. >>> Also using such a light (non heavy) sail will mean that >>> the "mirror" is accelerated a lot and lot of energy is lost >>> due to the Doppler effect. > >Given that the mirror is the surface of a plasma, and said plasma is being >continuously being replenished. I'm not sure the reflective "surface" is >actually moving? Althou obviously the particals in the plasma are moving >(and accelerating) rapidly. Are the micro waves reflecting off the >particals? Or off the area where the plasma is ionized enough to reflect >them? TV > Probably all the way in between. But that is not important TV > here, because a reflection means transfer of momentum, TV > and with it energy. Since the plasma will be accelerated TV > a lot, it will retrieve a lot of energy. Do you mean absorb a lot of energy? That is a problem with a drop mirrow or plasma mirror idea. But as long as you can do it and get thrust to decelerate the ship (the big problem in al this), it might work well enough to get us somewhere. (Assuming the whole thing doesn't melt the ship!) >>> Also I have doubts how well the "mirror" reflects, ionized >>> particles attract or repell each other so, it won't take long >>> befor the "mirror" has destroyed itself. > >The ions in a plasma of the same material wil repell each other. You might >be able to do some magnetic tricks to hold it, but it probably wouldn't be >worth the trouble. > >[ Hum --- I wounder if you could wiggle the exausting plasma to for a laser >to get back some of the energy? ] TV > Don't talk about plasma as if it where some easy to TV > control stuff. The movement of the plasma itself would TV > create magnetic fields. It's like boiling water but much TV > worse. I didn't say it was going to be easy. (Thou compared with the sail, the power generator, and transmitters; It will be a snap!) I just said it might be worth doing. I mean the plasma will have a LOT of energy in it. It might be worth tapping some off. >As to reflectivity. That would depend on the nature of the plasma and a lot >of other variables. This is probably not a question we could easily figure >out for ourselves. >>> Shock wave? I don't understand, please explain again. > >You have a mass of plasma being hit with E18 of energy. It will be HOT, and >highly ionized. It will be explosivly expanding. The light pressure of the >beam (or the feed mass) will probably keep it from flowing straight up the >beam. But it will be moving rapidly to the sides and forward or the ship. > We should be able to tap this for thrust. TV > My guess is that this shock wave will move mostly TV > forward instead of backward. If by forward, you mean toward Tau C. I agree. But like you said, plasmas get messy. One this hot will be blasting outward violently! We might be able to use the lateral plasma stream to push the ship beamwards. (Every little bit helps.) TV > You seem to want to do the same thing Kevin did: Make a TV > easy thing complicated and so loose complete control TV > over what you are doing. Whatever method you can think TV > of, it will take just as much energy that the TV > dragon-fly-sail will use. On the contrary. I'm trying to take a very complicated system and make it simpler. Notice I don't have the massive microwave to electric power converters of Kevin's origional drive system. Nor do I have the ultra exotic A.I. controled active structure of Forwards drop reflector sail. Forwards design would have had to steer itself, while steering the reflected beam back to the main ship, while tracking the main ship over interstellar distences. This is not easy, and it is REALLY pushing the envelope of probable 2050 technologies! On the other hand my plasma mirror idea would all take place in the area of the ship, and be directly controlable by the ship. Assuming it wasn't mass or energy prohibative, it would clearly be the prefered system. (Assuming it would work of course.) Kelly From popserver Sun Dec 3 02:57:05 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["9996" "Sat" "2" "December" "1995" "18:56:38" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "211" "Re: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea." "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA19543; Sat, 2 Dec 95 18:52:32 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) id SAA02132; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:56:38 -0800 Message-Id: <199512030256.SAA02132@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <951202200736_42256412@emout05.mail.aol.com> References: <951202200736_42256412@emout05.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 817959168.000 From: Steve VanDevender To: KellySt@aol.com Cc: stevev@efn.org, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea. Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:56:38 -0800 KellySt@aol.com writes: > to: stevev@efn.org > > > If a static structure had to dissipate energy continuously to > > > remain standing, where would such energy come from? Why doesn't > > > your house fall down? Where are the batteries? > > > > The energy is coming from the gravitational attraction of > > the earth. It is disapated as heat in the structure of the > > house. In a structure under heavy loads (too heavy) you > > can feel the heat in the structure. > > Steve>> Really? So when does the earth run out of gravity? > > When space gets tired of curving? ;) So what you are saying is that any gravitational source is a supply of infinite energy. All one need do is hang a weight from a wire or stack up a bunch of bricks, attach a thermocouple to the now warmer structure, and get free electricity, forever. This is such an amazingly simple principle that I am surprised such a method pf power generation has not been tapped already. Who needs sunlight to evaporate water to fall as rain to flow through rivers to run hydroelectric generators, when one could use a farm of gravitationally stretched or compressed objects and a heat exchanger to run a boiler to make steam to run the generators instead? The curvature of space also carries energy, but a finite amount. Objects in a gravitational field can't dissipate heat forever; the energy has to come from somewhere, and there is no such thing as an infinite inexhaustible supply of energy in the universe. > Steve>> I think you've spent too much time in the Cartoon > Steve>> Physics section of Acme Physics Warehouse. > > Steve>> Tell me about one of these structures that I can go > Steve>> visit, put my hand on, and feel the heat. > > Over stressed cable stayed structures are about the only ones I've delt with > that I could feel the differnce in. Others are too low to feel, but > insterments can detect it. Are these structures under true static stress? Is the heat coming from an overstressed, gradually elongating cable (in which case work is being done on the cable material), or can you set up such a structure and get heat from it forever without degeneration of the structure? If so, how do you explain getting more heat from the structure than you put energy into it when you built it? If such a structure could persist indefinitely, how do you explain where the energy came from when the structure has been around long enough that the total dissipated energy exceeds the energy equivalent of the mass of the structure and the gravitational source? > KellySt@aol.com writes: > > >> Besides not treating momentum as a vector quantity, people are > > >> making the mistake of thinking that lateral loading of the sail > > >> assembly is a magical sink for momentum or energy. The error is > > >> in thinking that stress on a static structure absorbs energy or > > >> momentum continuously over time. If the sail does not move > > >> relative to the ship, then it cannot absorb or dissipate momentum > > >> separately from the ship. It cannot absorb momentum if it does > > >> not move, because momentum means motion. ---- > > > > (??!) > > Thats like the old argument that if a tractor is pushing against a wall > its > > doing no work, since the wall isn't accelerated. The sail is getting a > > thrust that is perpendicular to the surface of reflection. If you want to > > describe the portion of the thrust that isn't accelerating the ship as > > invalid, enjoy. > > S >> The tractor is dissipating energy because it contains > S >> moving parts in its engine and drive train that keep > S >> moving even though the tractor chassis and the wall > S >> are not. > > Now whos trying to talk their way out of a corner. Try a > direct drive electric tractor. Nothing turns unless the > vehical moves. So where does the power go if nothing moves? If an electric motor is prevented from turning then the energy that is not producing motion heats the motor windings; if the motor does not turn then the windings are an electrical short circuit. An ideal electric motor draws no power if it does no work. As you should know as a student of engineering, ideal motors are as common as unbending beams. Any real motor has resistive and mechanical losses that will cause it to draw power even if it does no work. I can keep this up for a long time, because I know what I'm talking about. You are making claims that would get you a lot of stern looks from your physics professor, if not outright laughter. > S >> Lean a board against the wall. Does it dissipate energy > S >> because it can't move the wall? Lean a heavy iron bar > S >> against the wall. Does it dissipate more energy than > S >> the board? > > They are under a constant 1 g thrust. They are under the load > resisting that takes. Where do you think that power goes? There is no power dissipation, because there is no motion. Power isn't going anywhere. Power is work over time. Work is force times distance. A force that is prevented from producing motion produces no work; no work over any amount of time is no power. You have equated work (or energy) with force, a mistake that should have been corrected in your first class that covered Newtonian physics. > S >> Are the bricks at the bottom of the wall permanently > S >> warmer than the bricks at the top because they are under > S >> compression? > > Yes. You need to have a long, long talk with a physics professor. > S >> --- You can't claim that gravity is continuously pumping > S >> energy into the objects; you can't gain or lose energy if > S >> you don't move up or down in a gravity field. > > If non-moving structures are not continuously being subjected to a force, > what keeps them under continuous presure? Something is crushing their > molecular structures enough to put them under a load. If that presure was > removed, or droped, they would expand. In the same way the structure in the > sail bracing is under continuous stress. That stress requires extension in space. It is true that moving up and down in a gravity field changes the energy of the object. But if no motion occurs, there is no change in energy. The compression of the structure occurred once and added a finite amount of energy to it. There is no continuous dissipation of energy as you seem to think; the bricks at the bottom of the wall got warmer just after the other bricks were stacked on top of them, but do not stay warmer forever, because no more work is done on them. No motion through the gravity field means no work; no work is no energy. > S >> My intention was to prove that Kevin's parasail design > S >> couldn't absorb photons without absorbing their > S >> momentum. > > But you can divert the thrust vectors to a non-forward direction. in a > reflection. Its not going to buy you anything is you later absorb the > photons anyway, but it is a usefull trick to move the beam around without > geting shoved by it. (Frankly with all the bouncing, have defined equations > getting tossed around I'm not sure if that was Kevins point anymore.) You can reflect different parts of the beam in different directions to produce sideways components of momentum that cancel over the entire structure. You cannot take forward momentum and turn it into sideways momentum without giving the forward momentum completely to something else. When I say that momentum is a vector quantity and is conserved as a vector quantity, what I mean is that if you have a quantity of momentum, its direction is as important as its magnitude, and although you can divide the momentum up however you like, even split zero components into complementary non-zero components aimed in opposite directions, the sum of all the momenta of all the things you divide it up among sums to momentum in the same direction with the same magnitude. The ship gets all of the forward momentum of each photon it absorbs, no matter how the photon was reflected or redirected before the ship finally absorbed it. There is no other way to satisfy conservation of momentum. > s >> You seem to have a real misunderstanding of the > s >> difference between work and potential. When you put a > s >> structure under tension or compression, you do change > s >> its energy, ONCE, when you slightly pull apart or scrunch > s >> together > > Actually, I'm probably not being as clear as I might be. However, the > differnce if fairly accademic as far as the ships concerned. Frankly, your understanding of physics would get you marked as a raving loon. > > One very consistent problem in LIT over the last year has been > > a very limited interest in the engineering realities of a > > situation, and to much fondness for endless equation wars. > > s >> These are not equation wars; as this message shows, you > s >> don't always have to use math to talk about physics. > > But in the Equation wars, no one was using anything but equations (usually > not well explained or defined). This not only caused confusion to everyone > else, it frequently tripped up the person making the statment How much math have I used to explain conservation of energy and momentum here? I think I have a clear and accurate understanding of those concepts, which does not lead me to the contradictory conclusions you are coming up with. Your claims quite clearly imply that you can get indefinite amounts of heat energy from an unmoving structure in a gravitational field, because you say a structure in a gravitational field is warmer and stays warmer than an equivalent structure not in a gravitational field. You cannot claim to be playing by the same rules of physics that the rest of us are trying to play by. Your knowledge of physics has flaws and gaps that I have already spent too much time trying to correct and fill. From popserver Sun Dec 3 04:16:42 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1686" "Sat" "2" "December" "1995" "19:19:08" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "41" "Re: one question" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA20322; Sat, 2 Dec 95 19:14:58 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) id TAA02187; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 19:19:08 -0800 Message-Id: <199512030319.TAA02187@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <951202200747_42256550@emout04.mail.aol.com> References: <951202200747_42256550@emout04.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 817963945.000 From: Steve VanDevender To: KellySt@aol.com Cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: one question Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 19:19:08 -0800 KellySt@aol.com writes: > >> > > Yes, in fact is does not take any energy to keep > >> > > floating a few metres above Earth's surface. > > > >> >Well, it depends on how you make the object float. > > >> No, if you for example use a helicopter, it does not take > >> energy to stay at that height but it does take energy to > >> move all the air. > > >> Timothy > > Hold your arm out to you side. Tell me it takes no effort (energy) to hold > it there. Your muscles are not static structures, as I have pointed out before. They produce force with protein fibers that must continually dissipate energy by moving molecules around to maintain constant tension. This constant chemical activity is what you feel as effort when you hold out your arm. Now nail a board at a right angle to a vertical post. How much energy does it take to hold it there? None. How much energy did it take to put it there? Some to lift the board and pound the nails. The motions required to do those actions performed work; they involved application of force over a distance. Some of this work heated the nails and the board; once you are done pounding no more energy is put into the nails or the board, and they cool. Once they cool to ambient temperature no more energy goes into or out of the board and the nails. Gravity cannot change the energy of the board because the board does not move through the gravitational field. That it takes effort for your body to produce a constant force does not mean that all forces result from constant effort (dissipation of energy). It means that your body is not an ideal machine. A force that produces no motion dissipates no energy. From popserver Sun Dec 3 10:37:08 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4895" "Sun" "3" "December" "1995" "00:22:14" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "114" "Re: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea." "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA26674; Sat, 2 Dec 95 22:19:47 PST Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Sun, 3 Dec 95 00:22:15 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199512030256.SAA02132@tzadkiel.efn.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 817986764.003 From: Kevin C Houston To: Steve VanDevender Cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea. Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 00:22:14 -0600 (CST) On Sat, 2 Dec 1995, Steve VanDevender wrote: > > S >> My intention was to prove that Kevin's parasail design > > S >> couldn't absorb photons without absorbing their > > S >> momentum. i now accept this point as proven. > You can reflect different parts of the beam in different > directions to produce sideways components of momentum that cancel > over the entire structure. You cannot take forward momentum and > turn it into sideways momentum without giving the forward > momentum completely to something else. When I say that momentum Okay, let's think about that for a moment. Is it possible to absorb the photons into the Reaction Mass (RM), giving all of the energy _and_ momentum to the exhaust stream. since the exhaust stream consists of (ideally) the recieved photons and extra mass, would this slow the system. Half formed idea follows: (modifications/analysis welcomed) __________ |RM inlet ship's core /"/ Power from Sol ______________/"/________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~============"="="="="="="="="="" exhaust and power ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~============="="="="="="="="="=" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~============"="="="="="="="="="" ______________ _________ \"\ \"\ |RM inlet ~ Photons going one way = photons going both directions (canceling? hope not) " Reaction Mass Of course this assumes we can aim a maser straight up the butt of the ship over light years, which of course we cant. But, numerous reflections could collect the energy over square kilometers, and focus it in the required manner, producing the same net result. If your objection is to this paragraph, then hold your horses, because I'm dubious about this part myself. remember, I just thought this up about 20 miuntes ago (as I'm writing this) so there may be a few bugs my question is this: does the ship slow down? I think it should. (but I've been wrong before) before the interaction, the ship and the RM were traveling to the right with some speed V. after the interaction, the RM is traveling at a greatly increased speed to the right, and the photon beam is traveling to the left. (complete reflection -- don't ask me how, just assume it for the moment.) Now absorb the photon beam and convert it to electricity. (the ship should act as though the photons came from Tau Ceti, slowing even more.) -- again, we either need a magical one-way absorber at the ~/= interface (~ photons enter from the left, = photons are absorbed from the right), or a complicated series of reflectors. or we have to abandon the photons capture and just let all that lovely energy zing back to earth. the electricity (if we can capture it) can then be used to power a lineac, acellerating the plasma stream even more. which definitly would slow the ship I think this is what Kelly was trying to get at with his plasma mirror, but this puts the mirror inside the ship. I realize that I'm talking about some very very complicated twists and turns, but just answer the following question. is this system physically possible? does it preserve momenergy, and does the ship slow down. we can worry about the merely difficult engineering tasks later. > is a vector quantity and is conserved as a vector quantity, what > I mean is that if you have a quantity of momentum, its direction > is as important as its magnitude, and although you can divide the > momentum up however you like, even split zero components into > complementary non-zero components aimed in opposite directions, > the sum of all the momenta of all the things you divide it up > among sums to momentum in the same direction with the same > magnitude. > here's how I see it breaking down, 1 photons reflecting off RM: Momenergy (very dangerous of me to toss a word around that I don't fully understand.) conserved by acceleration of RM. Ship slows down a little or not at all (photons momentum equals RM momentum and ship stays the same??? but ship now has less mass ) 2 reflected photons absorbed: Momenergy conserved by ship slowing down. 3 electricity used to further accelerate RM. ship slows down even more. I cannot begin to solve the math showing how much the ship slows down, or how much energy is required, or how much RM is required. I'm not even sure the physical model is correct. help. Kevin PS, I do appreciate your kind tutuledge Steve, I know it must be frustrating trying to pound knowledge into a head as thick as mine, especially through such a small bandwidth channel like this. From popserver Sun Dec 3 23:14:51 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5158" "Sun" "3" "December" "1995" "22:24:12" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "120" "Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA21840; Sun, 3 Dec 95 13:21:05 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA26247 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 3 Dec 1995 22:24:03 +0100 Message-Id: <199512032124.AA26247@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 818032205.019 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sun, 03 Dec 1995 22:24:12 +0100 ReplyFrom : Timothy ReplyTo : Kelly Subject : Humans and stairs >Hold your arm out to you side. Tell me it takes no effort (energy) to hold >it there. Even if I could convince you that it took no energy to keep it there, you would probably say that the only possibility was that my feet got colder. But serious, it is not that easy to explain this easy in an other way than Steve and I did earlier. So let me ask you a question: Does it TAKE energy to walk down the stairs or does it GIVE energy? If it takes energy, would that not mean that walking up the stairs would give energy? And if it gives energy, why use people elevators or lifts? I'm not trying to make fun out of you, but I'm trying to point you at the errors in your theory. Since you probably are better at looking in yourself than I am, my hopes are that with these questions you solve the difficulties yourself. problems. Timothy =========================================================================== ReplyFrom : Timothy ReplyTo : Kelly Subject : Prelaunching >No, Kevins starship design is propelled by a photon (maser) beam. My >origional Explorer design is propelled by fusion powered mass drivers. I >call it an externally feed system since the fuel is thrown out ahead of the >ship by a launcher in Sol. (See my Explorer starship design page on the LIT >site.) Thats probably the central thing confusing you. Unless your >confusing the Explorer ship with the plasma mirror design I came up with more >recently. Ah, now I see. But you agreed that both prelaunching and taking-all-with-us takes the same amount of energy/fuel. But after understanding it, I think that that prelaunching is more economic with energy. >Figure out how much fuel it would take to run the reactors & engines enough >to accelerate the ship (but not its fuel) up to speed. I've started a calculation, but as far as I can see it now, this method is not much more efficient than the take-it-all-with-us method. Furthermore, prelaunching only works for acceleration, not for decelleration. >> It would be best if we could find a solution without using the interstellar >> particles, but at the same time we should keep in mind >> that we have to protect us against it. This may sound a >> bit contradictory but a general solution would be best. > >How about working out a high and low range based on the most and least mass >expected out there? That would be fine with me, but I have a feeling that using the ISM to break will not work. But OK, does anyone have the number of particles per cubic metre? =========================================================================== ReplyTo : Kelly ReplyFrom : Timothy Subject : Plasma mirror >Don't understand you question. I was assuming it would depend on the mass, >but I didn't know how much mass that would be. I guess, I was having difficulties with the expression "I don't have a handle". >> Ions are particles too. They may have small masses, >> but if you have enough of them you could build a >> complete dragon-fly sail. > >I don't know which system would be lighter, but of course we couldn't build >the dragon-fly system, so thats kind of a mute point. We can't build a dragon-fly system? I don't agree with that. Just make a big (heavy) mirror and detach just before the Asimov is going to decelerate and the mirror is going to accelerate. >> Probably all the way in between. But that is not important >> here, because a reflection means transfer of momentum, >> and with it energy. Since the plasma will be accelerated >> a lot, it will retrieve a lot of energy. > >Do you mean absorb a lot of energy? That is a problem with a drop mirrow or >plasma mirror idea. But as long as you can do it and get thrust to >decelerate the ship (the big problem in al this), it might work well enough >to get us somewhere. (Assuming the whole thing doesn't melt the ship!) No, I meant retrieving energy in the form of kinetic energy: The plasma is accelerated much as the photons are reflected on it. >On the contrary. I'm trying to take a very complicated system and make it >simpler. Notice I don't have the massive microwave to electric power >converters of Kevin's origional drive system. Nor do I have the ultra exotic >A.I. controled active structure of Forwards drop reflector sail. Forwards >design would have had to steer itself, while steering the reflected beam back >to the main ship, while tracking the main ship over interstellar distences. > This is not easy, and it is REALLY pushing the envelope of probable 2050 >technologies! Are you sure that you know how the Dragon-fly or retro-reflection method works? Because I don't see why a plasma mirror is easier than a solid mirror. >On the other hand my plasma mirror idea would all take place in the area of >the ship, and be directly controlable by the ship. Assuming it wasn't mass >or energy prohibative, it would clearly be the prefered system. (Assuming it >would work of course.) Indeed, if it wasn't for the mass or energy it would certainly have a pre. But I'm quite certain that especially the mass would be the problem. From popserver Sun Dec 3 23:15:05 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1224" "Sun" "3" "December" "1995" "23:48:23" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "31" "Engineering newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA25328; Sun, 3 Dec 95 14:45:03 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA00758 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 3 Dec 1995 23:48:16 +0100 Message-Id: <199512032248.AA00758@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 818032205.027 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Engineering newsletter Date: Sun, 03 Dec 1995 23:48:23 +0100 ReplyTo : Kevin ReplyFrom : Timothy Subject : Dragonfly? >I think this is what Kelly was trying to get at with his plasma mirror, >but this puts the mirror inside the ship. I realize that I'm talking >about some very very complicated twists and turns, but just answer the >following question. is this system physically possible? does it >preserve momenergy, and does the ship slow down. we can worry about the >merely difficult engineering tasks later. Yes, it looks much like it, and I have the same comment, why not use a simple massive mirror that works according to the dragon-fly principle. >here's how I see it breaking down, > >1 photons reflecting off RM: > >Momenergy (very dangerous of me to toss a word around that I don't fully >understand.) conserved by acceleration of RM. Ship slows down a little or >not at all (photons momentum equals RM momentum and ship stays the >same??? but ship now has less mass ) > >2 reflected photons absorbed: >Momenergy conserved by ship slowing down. > >3 electricity used to further accelerate RM. ship slows down even more. It would be better not to absorb the photons, but reflect them right away. Steve showed that a long time ago. From popserver Sun Dec 3 23:14:59 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["688" "Sun" "3" "December" "1995" "14:30:47" "-0800" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" nil "14" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from wolfe.net (mail1.wolfe.net) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA24281; Sun, 3 Dec 95 14:22:26 PST Received: from sea-ts2-p48.wolfenet.com (sea-ts2-p48.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.166]) by wolfe.net (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id OAA20330; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:30:47 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199512032230.OAA20330@wolfe.net> X-Sender: rddesign@gonzo.wolfenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 818032205.023 From: rddesign@wolfenet.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:30:47 -0800 (PST) >We can't build a dragon-fly system? I don't agree with that. Just make a big >(heavy) mirror and detach just before the Asimov is going to decelerate and >the mirror is going to accelerate. Lookout, here comes the novice again. :-) If yoyu are thinking about dicarding the mirror or anything else, think about dumping it as Reaction Mass into the drive and use it to help slow this puppy down. Along with mass brought along just for this purpose a dent could be made in slowing the ship. Deploy a second "sail/mirror" behind the ship to feed solar energy from TC into the drive to assist also. think about simpler soultions. The best Beads come from RD Designs. Ric & Denisse Hedman From popserver Mon Dec 4 06:55:54 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["4219" "Mon" "4" "December" "1995" "00:29:18" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" "<951204002917_124214983@mail02.mail.aol.com>" "112" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA11586; Sun, 3 Dec 95 21:26:54 PST Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA20779; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 00:29:18 -0500 Message-Id: <951204002917_124214983@mail02.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 818059876.006 From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 00:29:18 -0500 Subj: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sun, Dec 3, 1995 4:24 PM EST From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl X-From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl ReplyFrom : Timothy ReplyTo : Kelly Subject : Humans and stairs >Hold your arm out to you side. Tell me it takes no effort (energy) to hold >it there. >> Even if I could convince you that it took no energy to keep >> it there, you would probably say that the only possibility >> was that my feet got colder. Don't bother. I refused to get into an argument over levitating arms. >> Does it TAKE energy to walk down the stairs or does it GIVE energy? Actually both take energy since your accelerating and decelerating masses of your body. Though obviously going down you don't need to bost yourself up a gravity/potential energy well. =========================================================================== ReplyFrom : Timothy ReplyTo : Kelly Subject : Prelaunching >No, Kevins starship design is propelled by a photon (maser) beam. My >origional Explorer design is propelled by fusion powered mass drivers. I >call it an externally feed system since the fuel is thrown out ahead of the >ship by a launcher in Sol. (See my Explorer starship design page on the LIT >site.) Thats probably the central thing confusing you. Unless your >confusing the Explorer ship with the plasma mirror design I came up with more >recently. >> Ah, now I see. But you agreed that both prelaunching and taking-all-with-us >> takes the same amount of energy/fuel. But after understanding it, I think >> that that prelaunching is more economic with energy. Energy total yes. Energy on the ship, no. Since the ship power requierments are the show stoper of the system.. >> Furthermore, prelaunching only works for acceleration, not for decelleration. Agreed, but then you can say the same thing about photon sailers. >> It would be best if we could find a solution without using the interstellar >> particles, but at the same time we should keep in mind >> that we have to protect us against it. This may sound a >> bit contradictory but a general solution would be best. > >How about working out a high and low range based on the most and least mass >expected out there? >> >That would be fine with me, but I have a feeling that using the ISM to break >> >will not work. But OK, does anyone have the number of particles per cubic metre? I listed some assumptions on my Explorer Web page in LIT. I think bottom assumption was a hydrogen atom every cubic centameter or 4. =========================================================================== ReplyTo : Kelly ReplyFrom : Timothy Subject : Plasma mirror >Don't understand you question. I was assuming it would depend on the mass, >but I didn't know how much mass that would be. >> I guess, I was having difficulties with the expression "I don't have a handle". Sorry for the slang. English to englist translation. I don't know what the answer is. >> Ions are particles too. They may have small masses, >> but if you have enough of them you could build a >> complete dragon-fly sail. > >I don't know which system would be lighter, but of course we couldn't build >the dragon-fly system, so thats kind of a mute point. >> >>We can't build a dragon-fly system? I don't agree with that. Just make a big >> >>(heavy) mirror and detach just before the Asimov is going to decelerate and >> >>the mirror is going to accelerate. Sorry that won't work. As the outer mirror moves away from the ship it has to continuosly reshape itself to refocus on the smaller catcher mirror/sail on the ship. Also without the anchor on the ship it will tend to flutter and shift off course due to slight variations in beam, ISM, mirror reflectvity, seperation torque, etc.. This of course ignores the fact the sail isn't rigid, and will tend to crumple once its free of the ship. Forward realized this, thats why he had an army of autonomus robots go with the outer sail to keep it working. Kelly From popserver Mon Dec 4 07:16:09 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2828" "Sun" "3" "December" "1995" "23:14:09" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "60" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA15476; Sun, 3 Dec 95 23:09:53 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) id XAA11724; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 23:14:09 -0800 Message-Id: <199512040714.XAA11724@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <199512032230.OAA20330@wolfe.net> References: <199512032230.OAA20330@wolfe.net> X-UIDL: 818061104.000 From: Steve VanDevender To: rddesign@wolfenet.com Cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden), KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 23:14:09 -0800 rddesign@wolfenet.com writes: > >We can't build a dragon-fly system? I don't agree with that. Just make a big > >(heavy) mirror and detach just before the Asimov is going to decelerate and > >the mirror is going to accelerate. > > Lookout, here comes the novice again. :-) > If yoyu are thinking about dicarding the mirror or anything else, think > about dumping it as Reaction Mass into the drive and use it to help slow > this puppy down. Along with mass brought along just for this purpose a dent > could be made in slowing the ship. Deploy a second "sail/mirror" behind the > ship to feed solar energy from TC into the drive to assist also. > think about simpler soultions. > The best Beads come from RD Designs. > Ric & Denisse Hedman To quickly summarize an earlier discussion: The novel _Flight of the Dragonfly_ by physicist Robert L. Forward describes a starship, called the Dragonfly, which uses a unique lightsail design. During the boost phase of the trip, the ship uses a single large lightsail to accelerate, powered by lasers from the Solar system. At the end of the boost phase, the large sail is detached but left intact. A smaller forward-facing sail is deployed on the ship. During the deceleration phase, the lasers remain aimed towards the large sail (with ship ship and small sail shadowing part of it), which is designed to carefully focus the incident light back towards the small sail. With this design, an ship can be accelerated and decelerated with lightsails powered from the system of origin. It's also pretty clean in terms of its physical behavior, although the task of focusing light from the forward sail to the retro sail is not trivial as the distances involved are very large. It is likely to be more efficient than using the sail material as reaction mass since it uses photons (already demonstrated to be a better form of "reaction mass" than any other material) exclusively for transferring momentum. The design still has some difficulties, the biggest of which is the focusing problem. Heavy use of such spacecraft would leave drifting relativistic-speed light sails zooming around the universe. These would gradually disintegrate from interactions with interstellar gas, if of course they didn't disintegrate while in use. The power coming from the forward sail gets pretty red-shifted near the end of the trip when the ship is nearly stopped; like most relativistic light-sail designs you have to turn up the power over the course of the trip. In some ways I think the Dragonfly sail (if I was sure that Forward invented it, I would call it the Forward sail both in his honor and for the mnemonic appropriateness) is a much cleaner and possibly more effective design than any of the other externally-powered ship designs that have been considered so far. From popserver Mon Dec 4 09:37:15 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2224" "Mon" "4" "December" "1995" "01:35:33" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "49" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA20152; Mon, 4 Dec 95 01:31:15 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) id BAA12035; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 01:35:33 -0800 Message-Id: <199512040935.BAA12035@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <951204002917_124214983@mail02.mail.aol.com> References: <951204002917_124214983@mail02.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 818069569.000 From: Steve VanDevender To: KellySt@aol.com Cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 01:35:33 -0800 KellySt@aol.com writes: > ReplyFrom : Timothy > ReplyTo : Kelly > Subject : Humans and stairs > > >Hold your arm out to you side. Tell me it takes no effort (energy) to hold > >it there. > > >> Even if I could convince you that it took no energy to keep > >> it there, you would probably say that the only possibility > >> was that my feet got colder. > > Don't bother. I refused to get into an argument over levitating arms. > > >> Does it TAKE energy to walk down the stairs or does it GIVE energy? > > Actually both take energy since your accelerating and decelerating masses of > your body. Though obviously going down you don't need to bost yourself up a > gravity/potential energy well. Tell me this, Kelly. Given a rod of mass m and height h, standing vertically in a uniform gravitational field that produces acceleration g, what is the power in watts of heat energy dissipated by the rod? I'll also accept a formula that gives the dissipation of an infinitesimal element at the bottom of the rod; it would be sufficient for determining the power dissipated by any section of the rod by integrating the formula over that section. Pointers to experiments that have been done to demonstrate this effect would also be helpful in convincing me that it's real. I'm also curious about whether you'd draw a distinction between that rod standing in a gravity field and the same rod clamped horizontally in a vise -- in either case the rod is under compression forces, but the rod clamped in a vise is not getting its compression from the gravity field. Does the rod in the vise also dissipate heat for as long as it's under compression? Why or why not? If it does, where does the energy come from, and what is the relationship between the tension or compression and the heat dissipated by the rod? Like Timothy, I'm not doing this to make fun of you. You are stating an opinion that is at odds with accepted laws of physics, at least as we understand them. If your belief that standing structures dissipate heat because of tension or compression forces has any truth, then it should be possible to demonstrate the effect experimentally and produce a theory that explains the effect. From popserver Mon Dec 4 09:42:19 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["8602" "Mon" "4" "December" "1995" "01:40:36" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "202" "Re: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea." "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA20238; Mon, 4 Dec 95 01:36:20 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) id BAA12049; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 01:40:36 -0800 Message-Id: <199512040940.BAA12049@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: References: <199512030256.SAA02132@tzadkiel.efn.org> X-UIDL: 818069874.000 From: Steve VanDevender To: Kevin C Houston Cc: Steve VanDevender , KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea. Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 01:40:36 -0800 Kevin C. Houston writes: > Half formed idea follows: (modifications/analysis welcomed) > > > __________ > |RM inlet > ship's core /"/ > Power from Sol ______________/"/________ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~============"="="="="="="="="="" exhaust and power > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~============="="="="="="="="="=" > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~============"="="="="="="="="="" > ______________ _________ > \"\ > \"\ > |RM inlet > > > ~ Photons going one way > = photons going both directions (canceling? hope not) > " Reaction Mass > > my question is this: > does the ship slow down? As drawn, I don't think so. The reason a rocket accelerates is that it reacts some material to produce pressurized gas in a vessel that is open on one end. The gas escapes from the opening, and the rocket moves in reaction because the pressure on the vessel (which is attached to the rocket) is asymmetric -- constant everywhere except at the opening. In microscopic terms all of the molecules that get forward momentum from the reaction bounce off the forward side of the vessel and transfer momentum to it. What you've built is sort of like a rocket that's a big open tube. Once the reaction mass is dumped into the tube, it's accelerated by the maser, but there's no way for it to transfer momentum with the ship. A chemical rocket built that way would just spew flame out each end of the pipe and not move. Here, whether the reaction mass absorbs or reflects the laser energy, it does so independently of the ship. A simple analogy might be to consider the difference between you throwing a baseball in zero-g and drifting backwards from the reaction, or placing a baseball in front of you and having someone shoot it with a rifle. The baseball goes flying away but you don't move from where you started. > I think it should. (but I've been wrong before) before the interaction, > the ship and the RM were traveling to the right with some speed V. after > the interaction, the RM is traveling at a greatly increased speed to the > right, and the photon beam is traveling to the left. (complete reflection > -- don't ask me how, just assume it for the moment.) I'll allow the hypothetical complete reflection, and your analysis of this part looks correct. The reaction mass accelerates but the ship doesn't slow down. > Now absorb the photon beam and convert it to electricity. > (the ship should act as though the photons came from Tau Ceti, slowing > even more.) -- again, we either need a magical one-way absorber at the > ~/= interface (~ photons enter from the left, = photons are absorbed from > the right), or a complicated series of reflectors. or we have to abandon > the photons capture and just let all that lovely energy zing back to earth. > > the electricity (if we can capture it) can then be used to power a lineac, > acellerating the plasma stream even more. which definitly would slow the ship > > I think this is what Kelly was trying to get at with his plasma mirror, > but this puts the mirror inside the ship. I realize that I'm talking > about some very very complicated twists and turns, but just answer the > following question. is this system physically possible? does it > preserve momenergy, and does the ship slow down. we can worry about the > merely difficult engineering tasks later. In principle this is really much like the Dragonfly two-piece lightsail. It's OK to reflect the photons backwards and use them to decelerate as long as you give the forward momentum from the original forward-moving photons to something, whether it's the Dragonfly forward sail or the reaction mass you're throwing into the pipe. > here's how I see it breaking down, > > 1 photons reflecting off RM: > > Momenergy (very dangerous of me to toss a word around that I don't fully > understand.) conserved by acceleration of RM. Ship slows down a little or > not at all (photons momentum equals RM momentum and ship stays the > same??? but ship now has less mass ) My thinking is that you are right that the ship won't slow down. Momenergy is Taylor and Wheeler's invented term. Their rationale for creating the concept seemed to be: 1. Conservation of energy is a major principle of physics. 2. Conservation of momentum is a major principle of physics. 3. Momentum and energy are conserved independently of each other, so energy can be added as a fourth component to a momentum vector, and normal vector operations will preserve conservation of the components. 4. When using total (rather than kinetic) energy for an object, there is a geometrically compelling interpretation for the resulting "momenergy" vector -- it points in the same direction as the velocity vector of the object, and its Lorentz magnitude is equal to the mass (in Timothy's terms, "rest mass") of the object. They then use momenergy vectors as fundamental items in relativistic kinematics problems. Conservation is handled automatically by requiring that the sum of momenergy vectors of all the components of an interaction remains the same before and after any interaction. In simple problems where you use one spatial dimension and momenergy vectors are two-dimensional, you can even draw nice diagrams on paper to show relationships, which is handy for solving problems. I write full four-dimensional momenergy vectors as: [ energy x-momentum y-momentum z-momentum ] The Lorentz magnitude of this vector is: sqrt(energy^2 - x-momentum^2 - y-momentum^2 - z-momentum^2) A more leisurely-paced explanation of momenergy vectors is in Chapter 7 of Taylor and Wheeler's _Spacetime Physics_. Have you bought your copy yet? > 2 reflected photons absorbed: > Momenergy conserved by ship slowing down. This is OK too, given your previous assumptions. > 3 electricity used to further accelerate RM. ship slows down even more. This is actually a very interesting idea. A small problem is that accelerating the reaction mass forward means that any light reflected back from it will be lower in energy because of doppler-shifting, so you get less energy back to accelerate further reaction mass. > I cannot begin to solve the math showing how much the ship slows down, or > how much energy is required, or how much RM is required. I'm not even > sure the physical model is correct. > > help. Well, I can at least show you how I'd start laying out the solution using the methods I'm familar with. First, let's pick a frame for doing the analysis. I tend to like using a frame where the spacecraft is initially at rest. So in this frame, the ship has momenergy [ s 0 ] (since motion in only one dimension is necessary for this analysis, I'll use 2-d vectors), and photons with momenergy [ p p ] are being beamed to the ship. This gives us the first major constraint on the solution -- no matter what happens, the total momenergy after any interaction will be [ s+p p ]. The intended reaction is to eject some quantity of reaction mass r into the photon beam, diminishing the ship's mass to s-r. This reaction mass also reflects the photons backward (in your ideal case), and the ship absorbs them. So now we have a system with these momenergies: ship: [ se sp ] reaction mass: [ re rp ] We also have the relationships: The invariant mass of the ship after ejecting the reaction mass is the magnitude of its momenergy vector: (s - r)^2 = magnitude [ se sp ] = se^2 - sp^2 Similarly, the invariant mass of the ejected reaction mass is the magnitude of its momenergy vector: r^2 = magnitude [ re rp ] = re^2 - rp^2 The momenergy vectors of the system components after the reaction is the same as the sum of the components before the reaction: [ se sp ] + [ re rp ] = [ s 0 ] + [ p p ] = [ s+p p ] It's too late for me to want to work on solving this now, but hopefully with appropriate juggling several of these variables can be eliminated and the final result can be expressed in terms of the quantities we consider known: s, r, p. > Kevin > > PS, I do appreciate your kind tutuledge Steve, I know it must be > frustrating trying to pound knowledge into a head as thick as mine, > especially through such a small bandwidth channel like this. If I keep this up I'd better get tenure in the LIT Physics department :-). From popserver Mon Dec 4 10:07:40 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["3641" "Mon" "4" "December" "1995" "03:59:52" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" "" "80" "Retro sailing difficulties" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA21089; Mon, 4 Dec 95 01:57:18 PST Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 4 Dec 95 03:59:53 -0600 Reply-To: Kevin C Houston In-Reply-To: <199512040714.XAA11724@tzadkiel.efn.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 818071394.000 From: Kevin C Houston Sender: Kevin C Houston To: Steve VanDevender Cc: rddesign@wolfenet.com, Timothy van der Linden , KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Retro sailing difficulties Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 03:59:52 -0600 (CST) To: all I think another problem with a retro reflective sail is that it puts an effective upper limit on acceleration and speed of the ship. I'm not sure what that limit is, but it must be substantially below 1 G accel, and far below C at turnaround. The whole idea with an externally fueled (either mass or photonic) ship was to keep gravity constant and get close to C. But observe what happens near turnaround if you do this with a retro reflective mirror. At turnaround, the ship and mirror are moving at .99 of C. Ship and mirror are detached. outer sail begins to accelerate even more. the outer ring sail begins to get inefficient _twice_. Once, when it sees the maser from earth redshifted, and twice, when the ship sees the reflected beam redshifted _again_. At the limit, it begins to look like Steve's two mirror puzzle. We'd get almost nothing out of the mirror as it asymtotically approached the speed of light. The plasma mirror avoids these difficulties. Since the mirror is constantly being renewed at the ship's speed, the primary reflection gets more and more efficient as the ship slows down. Also, this allows us to use the plasma mirror as reaction mass at the same time we're using it for retro reflection. plasma exhaust may not be the most efficient in the universe, but it's the best I can find if you want to get near C. How to aim a maser up the butt of the ship from twelve light years away: Simple really, just reflect the maser off the main sail with the focus at one end of the core. a second mirror there re-reflects the maser up the central core. (Foreward shows in his design a way to make diseparate beams enter into a colimator, and emerge as one coherent beam.) How to support a large sail structure hanging off the ship. it supports itself, because it is a parabolic shape, the reflection off of the innermost part of the main sail imparts almost no perpendicular force component. the beam that reflects off the outermost part of the main sail imparts a larger perpendicular (to the ships direction of flight) component and thus keeps the sail "inflated". How to make the plasma go out one end only: a transparent (to whatever energy beam we use) plate on the back end would allow the energy in, but prevent the the plasma from escaping no furling or unfurling of the main sail is required, the whole thing can be controlled by the secondary mirror. if it is retracted, then the maser bounces off the main sail, imparting thrust to the ship. Without a second mirror to bounce off of, the ship accelerates away from Sol. To begin slow-down, (can't even call it turnaround anymore, things sure have changed.) the secondary mirror is extended to intercept the reflected beam and send it into the core. The beam hits a wall of plasma, bounces off, and hits an absorber. (it can't be bounced back, because then it would just hit the plasma again, and be going in the wrong direction -- back toward Sol) The absorbed energy is then used to power ship's systems and further accelerate the plasma. if anyone can figure out how to bounce the maser beam back toward TC after it hits the plasma, I'll gladly scrap the accelerating-the-plasma with-the-converted-energy idea. which would save us from having to use microwaves, and help out with our heat load. Kevin P.S. to Steve. I just got your analysis of the design as i was about to send this. seems reasonably well laid out. BTW, what is the ISBN of Taylor and Wheeler's book? that will help me to order it. It will be a week or so before i can do any detailed work on it. From popserver Mon Dec 4 21:29:05 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4216" "Mon" "4" "December" "1995" "12:27:43" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "90" "Re: Retro sailing difficulties" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA23250; Mon, 4 Dec 95 03:24:32 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA09586 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 4 Dec 1995 12:27:38 +0100 Message-Id: <199512041127.AA09586@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 818112256.000 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Retro sailing difficulties Date: Mon, 04 Dec 1995 12:27:43 +0100 To: Kevin >I think another problem with a retro reflective sail is that it puts an >effective upper limit on acceleration and speed of the ship. I'm not >sure what that limit is, but it must be substantially below 1 G accel, >and far below C at turnaround. The whole idea with an externally fueled >(either mass or photonic) ship was to keep gravity constant and get close >to C. > >But observe what happens near turnaround if you do this with a retro >reflective mirror. > >At turnaround, the ship and mirror are moving at .99 of C. Ship and >mirror are detached. outer sail begins to accelerate even more. >the outer ring sail begins to get inefficient _twice_. Once, when it sees >the maser from earth redshifted, and twice, when the ship sees the >reflected beam redshifted _again_. I hadn't thought of that second shift... >At the limit, it begins to look like Steve's two mirror puzzle. We'd get >almost nothing out of the mirror as it asymtotically approached the speed >of light. But in the end it is also easier to decelerate: E=0.5 m v^2 The difference between v=1001 and v=1000 is dE=2001 while the difference between v=101 and v=100 is dE=201. Of course this same thing happens during acceleration: Only then more energy is needed. And that is not only because of the relativistic effects! >The plasma mirror avoids these difficulties. Since the mirror is >constantly being renewed at the ship's speed, the primary reflection gets >more and more efficient as the ship slows down. Yes but don't forget that the plasma gives also a serious redshift during the reflection. Also there is a finite time between replenishing the plasma and the reflection of light on that same plasma. This means the Asimov has decelerated a bit and that means the second redshift. It may be small, but it happens many many many times! Besides that, a lot of extra mass is needed to replenish the plasma. This extra mass has to be decelerated too! (Of course it get less during replenishing). Although I haven't done any calculations, I'm sure that a lot of mass is needed and my physics intuition tells me that the whole thing ends up needing the same energies as the dragon-fly. >Also, this allows us to use the plasma mirror as reaction mass at the >same time we're using it for retro reflection. plasma exhaust may not be >the most efficient in the universe, but it's the best I can find if you >want to get near C. If you use it as reaction-mass, that means that you need energy that comes from the Asimov, which it doesn't have! Also making the plasma move faster gives an even worse redshift. (If you think you can use the power of the maserbeam to accelerate the reaction-mass, then you are wrong) >How to aim a maser up the butt of the ship from twelve light years away: > >Simple really, just reflect the maser off the main sail with the focus at >one end of the core. a second mirror there re-reflects the maser up the >central core. (Foreward shows in his design a way to make diseparate >beams enter into a colimator, and emerge as one coherent beam.) I don't get this, could you make an ASCII drawing? >no furling or unfurling of the main sail is required, the whole thing can >be controlled by the secondary mirror. if it is retracted, then the >maser bounces off the main sail, imparting thrust to the ship. Without a >second mirror to bounce off of, the ship accelerates away from Sol. >To begin slow-down, (can't even call it turnaround anymore, things sure >have changed.) the secondary mirror is extended to intercept the >reflected beam and send it into the core. The beam hits a wall of >plasma, bounces off, and hits an absorber. (it can't be bounced back, >because then it would just hit the plasma again, and be going in the >wrong direction -- back toward Sol) That won't be bad, because we can use it again! (Of course more redshifted) >P.S. to Steve. I just got your analysis of the design as i was about to >send this. seems reasonably well laid out. BTW, what is the ISBN of >Taylor and Wheeler's book? that will help me to order it. It will be a >week or so before i can do any detailed work on it. ISBN 0-7167-2327-1 Timothy From popserver Mon Dec 4 21:29:56 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2177" "Mon" "4" "December" "1995" "17:35:00" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "60" "" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA04375; Mon, 4 Dec 95 08:31:27 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA13158 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 4 Dec 1995 17:34:58 +0100 Message-Id: <199512041634.AA13158@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 818112256.017 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: stevev@efn.org Subject: Date: Mon, 04 Dec 1995 17:35:00 +0100 Hi Steve, Imagine two electrically charged plates, both the positively charged. These two plates are on top of each other in a gravitational field: +++++++++++++++++++ Plate 1 gravity force || +++++++++++++++++++ Plate 2 \/ -------------------------------- //////////////////////////////// Solid floor Q:Why do the plates stay apart? A:Because of the electrical field. Q:But what is an electrical field and how does it propagate? A:Photons are the cariers of the electrical field. Q:So there are photons going up and down the plates? A:Yes and no, there are virtual photons going up and down. Q:What are virtual photons? A:These are photons that have a momentum that does not correspond to its energy. They can exist due to the uncertainty principle: dp*dx=h/(4 pi) What am I trying to say? Although this situation is static (the amount of virtual photons going up equals the amount going down) there is an exchange of something. One could also say that there is just a electric field, but even then there should be something that keeps the field the way it is. It may be that this is one of the things why Kelly has a hard time understanding that it no energy is released when an object is standing on the floor. >>> If a static structure had to dissipate energy continuously to >>> remain standing, where would such energy come from? Why doesn't >>> your house fall down? Where are the batteries? >> >>The energy is coming from the gravitational attraction of the earth. It is >>disapated as heat in the structure of the house. In a structure under heavy >>loads (too heavy) you can feel the heat in the structure. > >Really? So when does the earth run out of gravity? Of course Kelly is wrong, but one could say that there is an exchange (of energy?) between the house and the Earth. The total exchange is of course zero, but in the mean time a lot of interactions are going on. Saying that there would happen nothing would not make much sense, because then Kelly is right asking what keep space-time curved. Timothy P.S. This letter is only send to you. From popserver Mon Dec 4 21:29:58 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["5186" "Mon" "4" "December" "1995" "17:34:56" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" "<199512041634.AA13144@student.utwente.nl>" "128" "Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA04398; Mon, 4 Dec 95 08:31:48 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA13144 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 4 Dec 1995 17:34:51 +0100 Message-Id: <199512041634.AA13144@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 818112256.018 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Engineering Newsletter Date: Mon, 04 Dec 1995 17:34:56 +0100 ReplyFrom : Timothy ReplyTo : Kelly Subject : Humans and stairs >> Does it TAKE energy to walk down the stairs or does it GIVE energy? > >Actually both take energy since your accelerating and decelerating masses of >your body. Though obviously going down you don't need to bost yourself up a >gravity/potential energy well. When walking downstairs most of the accelerating is done by gravity, so that doesn't make you tired. Decelerating is done by the steps, so that does not take energy either. How do you respond to this? =========================================================================== ReplyFrom : Timothy ReplyTo : Kelly Subject : Using the SIM >I listed some assumptions on my Explorer Web page in LIT. I think bottom >assumption was a hydrogen atom every cubic centameter or 4. Now the question what are we going to do with the hydrogen? First catch it and decelerate a bit. Then use it both as fuel and reaction mass to decelerate even more. 4 per cubic centimetre --> 4E6 per cubic metre How much would we scoop? Total deceleration length: 2 ly = roughly 2E16 metres. 2E16*4E6*surface_of_the_scoop=8E22 hydrogen atoms per square metre of scooping area during the total deceleration. Thats a little more than one tenth MOL! and has a mass equivalent of: 0.0001 kilogram. This value seems to be too small to be useful! Unless we are planning a scoop of more than 1000 kilometres in radius. (Earth has a radius of 6500 kilometres) =========================================================================== ReplyTo : Kelly ReplyFrom : Timothy Subject : Plasma mirror >Sorry that won't work. As the outer mirror moves away from the ship it has >to continuosly reshape itself to refocus on the smaller catcher mirror/sail >on the ship. I don't think refocussing is necessary, the mirror itself can be just a flat mirror so the reflected beam is nothing different than the beam from Earth. >Also without the anchor on the ship it will tend to flutter and >shift off course due to slight variations in beam, ISM, mirror reflectvity, >seperation torque, etc.. This of course ignores the fact the sail isn't >rigid, and will tend to crumple once its free of the ship. Of course the mirror has it's own "gyro-system" it can compensate slight movements by using a small side reflectors. The same principle would be used when the Asimov is accelerated by a beam. >Forward realized this, thats why he had an army of autonomus robots go with >the outer sail to keep it working. The mirror will be quite heavy so that it doesn't start moving too fast. (what is fast...) Most of that mass can be used as shielding for the mirror. Of course this whole thing would make the Asimov about twice as heavy. But that seems to be the price of any solution for deceleration. =============================================================================== ReplyTo : All ReplyFrom : Timothy Subject : nanoAI About AI and nanotech. If AI and nanotech would be sufficiently advanced in about 40 years. One or more small vessels could be send to TC all with their own fuel to decelerate. These small vessels would contain AI and nanotech or even a combination of both. This nanoAI could build the same facilities on TC that would "create" the energy for the Asimov on Earth. The advantage is that the small vessels would use much less energy to make the trip. After nanoAI has build the facilities, accelerating and decelerating the Asimov would be the same and make the whole design a lot easier. =============================================================================== ReplyTo : Steve ReplyFrom : Timothy Subject : Why use the Dragonfly >In some ways I think the Dragonfly sail (if I was sure that >Forward invented it, I would call it the Forward sail both in his >honor and for the mnemonic appropriateness) is a much cleaner and >possibly more effective design than any of the other >externally-powered ship designs that have been considered so >far. Indeed it doesn't need massive engines or difficult energy transformations. The only problem may be pointing the mirrors and beams acurately enough. What I don't see is why the mirror can't be flat. Why does it need a focusing action? As far as I can see problems about redshifts always arise if one tries to use the energy coming from Earth to decelerate the Asimov. =============================================================================== ReplyTo : Steve ReplyFrom : Timothy Subject : Lost letter? Steve, I haven't heard it from you, yet: Do we agree that at least between us the word relativistic mass is merely an other word for relativistic energy? Also in my letter of november 29th, I replied to you: >Yes, this is also true. Hot objects are heavier than cold ones >(although not by an amount we have equipment to measure). A >mirrored box full of photons is heavier than the empty box. And it doesn't matter if they all move parallel and in the same direction all the time, right? Here is another one: If two particles feel the gravity of each other, then they are heavier together than if they are separate because of the extra gravitational energy. From popserver Tue Dec 5 00:51:57 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1198" "Mon" "4" "December" "1995" "16:49:04" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "31" "Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA03002; Mon, 4 Dec 95 16:44:43 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) id QAA13996; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 16:49:04 -0800 Message-Id: <199512050049.QAA13996@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <199512041634.AA13144@student.utwente.nl> References: <199512041634.AA13144@student.utwente.nl> X-UIDL: 818124447.000 From: Steve VanDevender To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Engineering Newsletter Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 16:49:04 -0800 Timothy van der Linden writes: > ReplyTo : Steve > ReplyFrom : Timothy > Subject : Lost letter? > > Steve, I haven't heard it from you, yet: Do we agree that at > least between us the word relativistic mass is merely an other > word for relativistic energy? What you call "relativistic energy" or "relativistic mass" I call energy. I reserve the term mass for invariant mass. I believe this avoids confusion. > Also in my letter of november 29th, I replied to you: > > >Yes, this is also true. Hot objects are heavier than cold ones > >(although not by an amount we have equipment to measure). A > >mirrored box full of photons is heavier than the empty box. > > And it doesn't matter if they all move parallel and in the same direction > all the time, right? Even if the photons all move parallel in the same direction, the combination of the photons and the box is more massive than the box alone, even though the photons alone have no mass. > Here is another one: If two particles feel the gravity of each other, then > they are heavier together than if they are separate because of the extra > gravitational energy. I do not have the knowledge to answer this. From popserver Tue Dec 5 01:02:27 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["914" "Mon" "4" "December" "1995" "17:01:13" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "19" "Retro sailing difficulties" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA03689; Mon, 4 Dec 95 16:56:51 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) id RAA14024; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 17:01:13 -0800 Message-Id: <199512050101.RAA14024@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: References: <199512040714.XAA11724@tzadkiel.efn.org> X-UIDL: 818125070.002 From: Steve VanDevender To: Kevin C Houston Cc: Steve VanDevender , rddesign@wolfenet.com, Timothy van der Linden , KellySt@aol.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Retro sailing difficulties Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 17:01:13 -0800 Kevin C. Houston writes: > The plasma mirror avoids these difficulties. Since the mirror is > constantly being renewed at the ship's speed, the primary reflection gets > more and more efficient as the ship slows down. > > Also, this allows us to use the plasma mirror as reaction mass at the > same time we're using it for retro reflection. plasma exhaust may not be > the most efficient in the universe, but it's the best I can find if you > want to get near C. I don't think you could think of this as reaction mass as much as simply throwing out new mirrors continually so you have a backwards-reflecting mirror that stays near the speed of the ship. There is also advantage to decelerating a ship that is gradually decreasing in mass. You could just as easily talk about hucking out new mirrors periodically, rather than trying to make a plasma that has these magical reflective properties. From popserver Wed Dec 6 08:04:32 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1651" "Tue" "5" "December" "1995" "23:54:25" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "31" "Re: Retro sailing difficulties" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Retro sailing difficulties" nil nil] nil) Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA29168; Tue, 5 Dec 95 20:55:59 PST Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA10544; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:54:25 -0500 Message-Id: <951205235424_45961101@mail06.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 818237001.008 From: KellySt@aol.com To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org Cc: rddesign@wolfenet.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Retro sailing difficulties Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:54:25 -0500 >> if anyone can figure out how to bounce the maser beam back >> toward TC after it hits the plasma, I'll gladly scrap the >> accelerating-the-plasma with-the-converted-energy idea. >> which would save us from having to use microwaves, and >> help out with our heat load. Arange the catcher mirror so that it focuses the reflected maser beam (from the ring sail) on the plasma, but does not inact with the maser reflected back from the plasma. If that reflected maser beam hits a flat mirror (or a curved or conical mirror) that doesn't reflect it onto the ring sail. The reflection from the plasma will push backwards toward Sol. I thought of a problem with the ring sail thou. It would focus the maser ahead of the ship. To realize this think of the thrust vectors on the sail from the reflections, vs the vectors from the cables from the ship. If the thrust vector angles are angled more forward than the cables, they would pull the sail forward. Which would colapse the sail. Since the reflected maser beams would be angled ahead of the normal vector at the point of reflection (equal angles of incidence and reflection) They would focus even farther ahead of the ship. I had thought of a was of using another sail to reflect the masers back outward for collection behind the ship, but that would probably not work due to beam reflections off the plasma stream. I suppose you could have the beam interact with the injected plasma in front of the ship. This would blow the high energy plasma stream backwards toward the ship. For later reflection off a magnetically or electrostatically charged forward shield/pusher plate. Kelly From popserver Wed Dec 6 08:04:33 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4359" "Tue" "5" "December" "1995" "23:54:56" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "97" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA29177; Tue, 5 Dec 95 20:56:02 PST Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA14724; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:54:56 -0500 Message-Id: <951205235454_45961665@emout05.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 818237001.009 From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:54:56 -0500 ReplyFrom : Timothy ReplyTo : Kelly Subject : Using the SIM >I listed some assumptions on my Explorer Web page in LIT. I think bottom >assumption was a hydrogen atom every cubic centameter or 4. Now the question what are we going to do with the hydrogen? First catch it and decelerate a bit. Then use it both as fuel and reaction mass to decelerate even more. 4 per cubic centimetre --> 4E6 per cubic metre How much would we scoop? Total deceleration length: 2 ly = roughly 2E16 metres. 2E16*4E6*surface_of_the_scoop=8E22 hydrogen atoms per square metre of scooping area during the total deceleration. Thats a little more than one tenth MOL! and has a mass equivalent of: 0.0001 kilogram. This value seems to be too small to be useful! Unless we are planning a scoop of more than 1000 kilometres in radius. (Earth has a radius of 6500 kilometres) =========================================================================== ReplyTo : Kelly ReplyFrom : Timothy Subject : Plasma mirror >Sorry that won't work. As the outer mirror moves away from the ship it has >to continuosly reshape itself to refocus on the smaller catcher mirror/sail >on the ship. >> I don't think refocussing is necessary, the mirror itself can >> be just a flat mirror so the reflected beam is nothing >> different than the beam from Earth. That would mean the catcher sail on the ship would be the same size as the reflector mirror. That would mean it would get more push forward from the dirrect beam from earth, than push back from the reflected beam from the mirror. Assuming of course the mirror flies sideway slightly so it isn't in the ships shaddow all the way to Tau. Of course if its off to one side you have to turn it so its reflections tracks the ship, so your back to the tracking problem. >Also without the anchor on the ship it will tend to flutter and >shift off course due to slight variations in beam, ISM, mirror reflectvity, >seperation torque, etc.. This of course ignores the fact the sail isn't >rigid, and will tend to crumple once its free of the ship. >> Of course the mirror has it's own "gyro-system" it can >> compensate slight movements by using a small side >> reflectors. The same principle would be used when the >> Asimov is accelerated by a beam. With enough accuracy to hit the retro sail at a distence of light years? ============================================================================== = ReplyTo : All ReplyFrom : Timothy Subject : nanoAI >> About AI and nanotech. If AI and nanotech would be >> sufficiently advanced in about 40 years. One or more >> small vessels could be send to TC all with their >> own fuel to decelerate. These small vessels would >> contain AI and nanotech or even a combination of both. >> This nanoAI could build the same facilities on TC that >> would "create" the energy for the Asimov on Earth. The >> advantage is that the small vessels would use much less >> energy to make the trip. After nanoAI has build the >> facilities, accelerating and decelerating the Asimov >> would be the same and make the whole design a lot easier. We still have no drive idea that could get a bit or small ship to Tau C. We've added the relyability problems of the AI and Nano systems to the project. After all, programs can crash, and nano's are made of complex molecules that might break down in the high radiation in transite. Assuming they get there in tact, what do we tel them to use for resources in a system we don't know anything about? How does a ship fly in two apposing beams? You can't turn eiather off. Since: you can't contact the ship to know what its doing in time, and don't want to fly to a system in the hopes the A.I's will turn the beam on when you expect. We also have extended the time of the project to us sustainable levels. Figure a quarter century after launch before a returning beam from Tau C. announces the decel system is compleated. Then a quarter century after that (50 years from the launch of the first nano ship), a beam from your starship announces you've started exploration. If the projects going to take that long you might as well wait untill you have a better drive system. For that matter. If the A.I's are good enough to build the decel gear. You might as well have them do the exploration and skip the human ship. From popserver Wed Dec 6 21:11:32 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5589" "Wed" "6" "December" "1995" "22:02:09" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "131" "Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl) by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA16443; Wed, 6 Dec 95 13:02:37 PST Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA28198 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 6 Dec 1995 22:01:53 +0100 Message-Id: <199512062101.AA28198@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 818284229.000 From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Engineering Newsletter Date: Wed, 06 Dec 1995 22:02:09 +0100 Who anyone who likes a physics comic, try: http://www.cpedu.rug.nl/~N0642983/velcro.gif It's about 14 Kbyte ============================================================================== ReplyTo : Kelly ReplyFrom : Timothy Subject : Plasma mirror >>> I don't think refocussing is necessary, the mirror itself can >>> be just a flat mirror so the reflected beam is nothing >>> different than the beam from Earth. > >That would mean the catcher sail on the ship would be the same size as the >reflector mirror. That would mean it would get more push forward from the >dirrect beam from earth, than push back from the reflected beam from the >mirror. Hmm, yes, but there seems to have a similar problem with the plasma mirror. But I've found a solution: /\ A / \ B Two mirrors A and B at a perpendicular angle /________\ /|__________|\ / || || \ || || || || || /\ \/ Beam from Earth Beam to Earth This design makes the total mirror about 3 times bigger. The beam from Earth should be directed mainly on mirror B so that the beam to the Earth (or from TC) is reflected mainly from A. The final result is that there are two beams next to each other, one is going up the other is going down. >Assuming of course the mirror flies sideway slightly so it isn't in >the ships shaddow all the way to Tau. Of course if its off to one side you >have to turn it so its reflections tracks the ship, so your back to the >tracking problem. With this new design the biggest tracking problem is removed. Furthermore the Asimov always has to follow the beam just as in the acceleration fase. >>Also without the anchor on the ship it will tend to flutter and >>shift off course due to slight variations in beam, ISM, mirror reflectvity, >>seperation torque, etc.. This of course ignores the fact the sail isn't >>rigid, and will tend to crumple once its free of the ship. > >>> Of course the mirror has it's own "gyro-system" it can >>> compensate slight movements by using a small side >>> reflectors. The same principle would be used when the >>> Asimov is accelerated by a beam. > >With enough accuracy to hit the retro sail at a distence of light years? 10 ly, 30 ly does it really matter? The minimum is 10 ly for any kind of beam-propulsion system. I wonder if an extra 20 ly makes that much difference. ============================================================================== ReplyTo : Kelly ReplyFrom : Timothy Subject : nanoAI >We still have no drive idea that could get a bit or small ship to Tau C. We have ideas, the biggest problem is the enormous amounts of fuel that are needed. Lets say we use a take-all-fuel-with-you system. For matter&anti-matter fuel the ratio fuel:ship would be about 20:1 for small ships 1E4 1E5 kg this may be acceptable but for ships 1E8 or 1E9 kg its a completly different story. >We've added the relyability problems of the AI and Nano systems to the >project. After all, programs can crash, and nano's are made of complex >molecules that might break down in the high radiation in transite. Assuming >they get there in tact, what do we tel them to use for resources in a system >we don't know anything about? Indeed things can go wrong and will go wrong. So will things happen on a ship like the Asimov, only then people are endangered. High radiation as a cause of error can easely be prevented by sufficient shielding. We know that there will be asteroids and planets there. This means that all the basic materials should be present, so our mini factories have to find them an use them. >How does a ship fly in two apposing beams? You can't turn eiather off. > Since: you can't contact the ship to know what its doing in time, and don't >want to fly to a system in the hopes the A.I's will turn the beam on when you >expect. The beams should be slightly from parallel. Halfway the should cross, and the vessel using it has to change beams there. This means that it has to move "side-way" some 100-1000 km or so. It should be like changing rail-tracks by using a switch. >We also have extended the time of the project to us sustainable levels. > Figure a quarter century after launch before a returning beam from Tau C. >announces the decel system is compleated. Then a quarter century after that >(50 years from the launch of the first nano ship), a beam from your starship >announces you've started exploration. If the projects going to take that >long you might as well wait untill you have a better drive system. Supposing a significant better system is possible within 50 extra years, I think its worth the waiting. >For that matter. If the A.I's are good enough to build the decel gear. You >might as well have them do the exploration and skip the human ship. That is something completly different discussion: Why do we want to go there anyway. I was having a discussion with Nick Tosh about that, until his connection broke down. I can tell you, that I don't know why we want to go there so soon anyway. If you have an answer I'd like to know... For the AI and nano, if they will be as unreliable and unadvanced as you think, my guess is that the time isn't right for flying to TC anyway: If anything, and I mean anything goes wrong in a system that uses 1E17 Watts you are lost! It's not like you can cut the power any time you like. What I wrote about overheating is just a small example of the problems that go with these power streams. (And as far as I'm concerned that problem isn't solved yet) Timothy From popserver Sat Dec 9 05:41:15 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["7364" "Fri" "8" "December" "1995" "21:34:28" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "197" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.12]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id VAA04907 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 21:38:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA06888; Fri, 8 Dec 1995 21:34:28 -0500 Message-ID: <951208213427_67925326@emout04.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, david@interworld.com, MLEN3097@mercury.gc.peachnet.edu Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 21:34:28 -0500 Hi guys, a few web pages you might be interested in. Zenon suggested nanotech and A.I. might be a pre req for star travel. He also suggested for more info about significance of nanotech for space exploration. See the Molecular Manufacturing Shortcut Group page at: http://www.music.qub.ac.uk:80/~amon/IslandOne/MMSG/ --------------- For serious info on planing space flights, check out: > >http://oel-www.jpl.nasa.gov/basics/bsf.htm > Originally created as an internal JPL training document, the Basics of Spaceflight is comprehensive, medium level overview of a wide range of topics related to construction and operation of planetary spacecraft. The material is supposed to be extremely well written and unlike many NASA outreach and educational materials, has not been digested down to the 5th grade level. ----------------------- Larry Klaes Editor of SETIQuest Magazine recomends http://www.setiquest.com It is still under construction, but its trying to let you explore how a starship will interact while approaching light speed. It can be found at URL http://www.fourmilab.ch under the link cship. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== ReplyTo: Timothy Subject : Plasma mirror >>> I don't think refocussing is necessary, the mirror itself can >>> be just a flat mirror so the reflected beam is nothing >>> different than the beam from Earth. > >>That would mean the catcher sail on the ship would be the same size as the >>reflector mirror. That would mean it would get more push forward from the >>dirrect beam from earth, than push back from the reflected beam from the >>mirror. >Hmm, yes, but there seems to have a similar problem with >the plasma mirror. Not really, Since the ring sail & catcher mirror are in the same place (attached to the ship) the ring sial would be geting the same energy (no energy drop due to r^2 losses.) >But I've found a solution: /\ A / \ B Two mirrors A and B at a perpendicular angle /________\ /|__________|\ / || || \ || || || || || /\ \/ Beam from Earth Beam to Earth > This design makes the total mirror about 3 times bigger. >The beam from Earth should be directed mainly on mirror B > so that the beam to the Earth (or from TC) is reflected >mainly from A. The final result is that there are two beams > next to each other, one is going up the other is >going down. Whats the advantage? Also you seem to asume the that the power beam will be as small as the miror? It sould be thousands of miles across. >>Assuming of course the mirror flies sideway slightly so it isn't in >>the ships shaddow all the way to Tau. Of course if its off to one side you >>have to turn it so its reflections tracks the ship, so your back to the >>tracking problem. >With this new design the biggest tracking problem is removed. Furthermore >the Asimov always has to follow the beam just as in the acceleration phase. I don't understand what your going for. >>Also without the anchor on the ship it will tend to flutter and >>shift off course due to slight variations in beam, ISM, mirror reflectvity, >>seperation torque, etc.. This of course ignores the fact the sail isn't >>rigid, and will tend to crumple once its free of the ship. > >>> Of course the mirror has it's own "gyro-system" it can >>> compensate slight movements by using a small side >>> reflectors. The same principle would be used when the >>> Asimov is accelerated by a beam. > >With enough accuracy to hit the retro sail at a distence of light years? >>10 ly, 30 ly does it really matter? The minimum is 10 ly for >> any kind of >> beam-propulsion system. I wonder if an extra 20 ly makes that much difference. ============================================================================== ReplyTo : Timothy Subject : nanoAI >>We still have no drive idea that could get a bit or small ship to Tau C. >We have ideas, the biggest problem is the enormous amounts >of fuel that are needed. Lets say we use a >take-all-fuel-with-you system. For matter&anti-matter fuel > the ratio fuel:ship would be about 20:1 for small ships 1E4 >1E5 kg this may be acceptable but for ships 1E8 or 1E9 kg >its a completly different story. Your taking hundreds of tons of antimatter! That is a stagering amount to manufacture, or even hold on to! >>We've added the relyability problems of the AI and Nano systems to the >>project. After all, programs can crash, and nano's are made of complex >>molecules that might break down in the high radiation in transite. Assuming >>they get there in tact, what do we tel them to use for resources in a system >>we don't know anything about? >Indeed things can go wrong and will go wrong. So will things happen on a >ship like the Asimov, only then people are endangered. >High radiation as a cause of error can easely be prevented by >sufficient shielding. People are mentally much more adaptable and relyable than any current Nano/A.I. systems. >We know that there will be asteroids and planets there. This >means that all the basic materials should be present, so our >mini factories have to find them an use them. Thats a big job if your the size of a virus. -------- >>We also have extended the time of the project to un sustainable levels. >> Figure a quarter century after launch before a returning beam from Tau C. >>announces the decel system is compleated. Then a quarter century after that >>(50 years from the launch of the first nano ship), a beam from your starship >>announces you've started exploration. If the projects going to take that >>long you might as well wait untill you have a better drive system. >Supposing a significant better system is possible within 50 > extra years, I think its worth the waiting. So will the backers. So the nano idea won't be launched, and the idea isn't feasable. >>For that matter. If the A.I's are good enough to build the decel gear. You >>might as well have them do the exploration and skip the human ship. >That is something completly different discussion: Why do we >want to go there anyway. I was having a discussion with Nick > Tosh about that, until his connection broke down. I can tell > you, that I don't know why we want to go there so soon >anyway. >If you have an answer I'd like to know... As I remember the idea of LIT was to see if we could think of some way we could build a starship in 2050 with probable technology of the day. Tau C was selected as a target to focus the groups attention on. >For the AI and nano, if they will be as unreliable and > unadvanced as you think, my guess is that the time isn't right >for flying to TC anyway: If anything, and I mean anything goes >wrong in a system that uses 1E17 Watts you are lost! It's not >like you can cut the power any time you like. What I wrote >about overheating is just a small example of the problems >that go with these power streams. (And as far as I'm >concerned that problem isn't solved yet) Agreed. I remember a demo where a steelwool pad was throw in a radar beam. It burned away in secounds. Very impresive! Especially to someone who might be thinking of riding such a beam for a couple decades. Kelly From popserver Sat Dec 9 17:40:31 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6788" "Sat" "9" "December" "1995" "17:38:50" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "173" "Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id IAA29840 for ; Sat, 9 Dec 1995 08:38:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA11787 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 9 Dec 1995 17:38:48 +0100 Message-Id: <199512091638.AA11787@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sat, 09 Dec 1995 17:38:50 +0100 ReplyTo : Kelly ReplyFrom : Timothy Subject : Plasma mirror >>>> I don't think refocussing is necessary, the mirror itself can >>>> be just a flat mirror so the reflected beam is nothing >>>> different than the beam from Earth. >> >>>That would mean the catcher sail on the ship would be the same size as the >>>reflector mirror. That would mean it would get more push forward from the >>>dirrect beam from earth, than push back from the reflected beam from the >>>mirror. > >>Hmm, yes, but there seems to have a similar problem with >>the plasma mirror. > >Not really, Since the ring sail & catcher mirror are in the same place >(attached to the ship) the ring sial would be geting the same energy (no >energy drop due to r^2 losses.) But would the beam from Earth not strike the ring sail? If not, please could you make an (ASCII)drawing, because then I don't understand how where the ring-sail and catcher mirror and the plasma are located. I don't use a ring-sail AND a catcher mirror, during deceleration, I have only one flat mirror directed to TC on the ship and a retro-mirror that is not coupled to the ship. A|----\ O-----------/ O Earth ----------- Beam from Earth \ / Retro-mirror ---- Beam from TC (Beam from Earth reflected by the retro-mirror) A| Asimov with a flat mirror >> This design makes the total mirror about 3 times bigger. >>The beam from Earth should be directed mainly on mirror B >> so that the beam to the Earth (or from TC) is reflected >>mainly from A. The final result is that there are two beams >> next to each other, one is going up the other is >>going down. >Whats the advantage? It overcomes the problem you mentioned: tracking. The only thing the Asimov has to do is move about 1000 kilometres to the left after it has uncoupled the retro-mirror. The result is that the mirror and the Asimov will move in the same direction during deceleration. >Also you seem to asume the that the power beam will be as small as the miror? >It sould be thousands of miles across. I indeed did, if the beam is much bigger than the mirror, that would really be a waste. If the radius of the beam is twice as big as the radius of the mirror that would mean a loss of 75% of the beam! But to overcome this if the beam is misplaced or bigger than the mirror, my design could be modified a bit: Beam that missed the mirror || || / || \ A / || \ B Two mirrors A and B at a perpendicular angle /__________________\ but at some distance from each other /|____________________|\ / || || || \ || || || || || || || /\ /\ \/ Beams from Earth Beam to Earth Although the mirrors are further apart, they still would be connected to each other, only the connections will not reflect much. >>>Assuming of course the mirror flies sideway slightly so it isn't in >>>the ships shaddow all the way to Tau. Of course if its off to one side you >>>have to turn it so its reflections tracks the ship, so your back to the >>>tracking problem. > >>With this new design the biggest tracking problem is removed. Furthermore >>the Asimov always has to follow the beam just as in the acceleration phase. > >I don't understand what your going for. See above. You said that a retro-mirror had tracking problems because it always had to be at an angle with the Asimov. My new design overcomes this problem ============================================================================== ReplyTo : Kelly ReplyFrom : Timothy Subject : nanoAI >>We have ideas, the biggest problem is the enormous amounts >>of fuel that are needed. Lets say we use a >>take-all-fuel-with-you system. For matter&anti-matter fuel >> the ratio fuel:ship would be about 20:1 for small ships 1E4 >1E5 kg this >may be acceptable but for ships 1E8 or 1E9 kg >>its a completly different story. > >Your taking hundreds of tons of antimatter! That is a stagering amount to >manufacture, or even hold on to! My assumptions are that making anti-matter in 50 years will be about 50% efficient. Of course I can't be sure of this, but why wouldn't it? (Rethorical question) Besides this efficiency, I wonder why you are so blaffed by these numbers. These numbers are just the sum of the energy needed during 1 or 2 years of acceleration. If we build a maser beaming station, a similar amount of energy is needed. The only thing you do when transferring energy to anti-matter is making it a bit more permanent. It probably is the easiest way to store such amounts of energy. So the moral is, anti-matter is merely an amount of energy that is easier to keep in storage. >People are mentally much more adaptable and relyable than any current >Nano/A.I. systems. You can't compare adaptability and reliable to CURRENT systems. That would be the same as to say that current engines would not work for our project and thus that it was not possible. >>We know that there will be asteroids and planets there. This >>means that all the basic materials should be present, so our >>mini factories have to find them an use them. > >Thats a big job if your the size of a virus. >From this I can conclude that I have a more optimistic view about nanotech and AI, then you do. Of course nanotech and AI are now in an early stage, but if 50 years ago, you had said what computers of today would be like, then they had laughed at you also. >>That is something completly different discussion: Why do we >>want to go there anyway. I was having a discussion with Nick >>Tosh about that, until his connection broke down. I can tell >>you, that I don't know why we want to go there so soon >>anyway. >>If you have an answer I'd like to know... > >As I remember the idea of LIT was to see if we could think of some way we >could build a starship in 2050 with probable technology of the day. Tau C >was selected as a target to focus the groups attention on. I know that, but I thought it was interesting to figure out why we want to go there. Is it just to have pissed on the ground there? Or is it because we want to colonize it? Or is it for scientific reasons? Or maybe all of them? All these things me be reasonable at first but, if you think a bit further, they make not much sense anymore... >Agreed. I remember a demo where a steelwool pad was throw in a radar beam. > It burned away in secounds. Very impresive! Especially to someone who >might be thinking of riding such a beam for a couple decades. I wish I could have seen it. Bear in mind that what you saw there was probably as very small example of what may be the case for the Asimov. Timothy From popserver Tue Dec 12 18:04:49 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["10319" "Tue" "12" "December" "1995" "00:03:44" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "239" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com (emout06.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.43]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id VAA28152 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 21:04:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA05472; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 00:03:44 -0500 Message-ID: <951211233058_51562464@emout06.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, david@interworld.com, MLEN3097@mercury.gc.peachnet.edu, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 00:03:44 -0500 Kelly re: Timothy Subject : Plasma mirror >> >>>> I don't think refocussing is necessary, the mirror itself can >> >>>> be just a flat mirror so the reflected beam is nothing >> >>>> different than the beam from Earth. >> >> >> >>>That would mean the catcher sail on the ship would be the same size as the >> >>>reflector mirror. That would mean it would get more push forward from the >> >>>direct beam from earth, than push back from the reflected beam from the >> >>>mirror. >> > >> >>Hmm, yes, but there seems to have a similar problem with >> >>the plasma mirror. >> > >> >Not really, Since the ring sail & catcher mirror are in the same place >> >(attached to the ship) the ring sail would be getting the same energy (no >> >energy drop due to r^2 losses.) >> >> But would the beam from Earth not strike the ring sail? >> If not, please could you make an (ASCII)drawing, because then I don't >> understand how where the ring-sail and catcher mirror and the plasma are >> located. Yes, the beam strikes the ring sail, and is reflected backward (Sol ward) and inward toward a small catcher mirror. The beam is then reflected forward from the catcher mirror to the plasma mirror. Net fore-aft thrust is nil until after it reflects off the plasma mirror. >> >> I don't use a ring-sail AND a catcher mirror, during deceleration, I have >> only one flat mirror directed to TC on the ship and a retro-mirror that is >> not coupled to the ship. A|----\ O-----------/ O Earth ----------- Beam from Earth \ / Retro-mirror ---- Beam from TC (Beam from Earth reflected by the retro-mirror) A| Asimov with a flat mirror >> >> This design makes the total mirror about 3 times bigger. >> >>The beam from Earth should be directed mainly on mirror B >> >> so that the beam to the Earth (or from TC) is reflected >> >>mainly from A. The final result is that there are two beams >> >> next to each other, one is going up the other is >> >>going down. >> >> >Whats the advantage? >> >> It overcomes the problem you mentioned: tracking. >> The only thing the Asimov has to do is move about 1000 kilometers to the >> left after it has uncoupled the retro-mirror. The result is that the mirror >> and the Asimov will move in the same direction during deceleration. You still haven't dealt with the problems of a drop mirror. - Given that the point of the exercise is that the mirror and ship will accelerate apart until they are moving apart at nearly light speed. They will be getting very far apart, and the "Retro-mirror" will need to aim to track the decelerating ship. By having the ships flat reflector mirror the size of the full power mirrors you eliminate the retro-mirror needs to focus, but not to keep aiming at the retreating ship. In trade you've added increased need for structural material, and added extra forward thrust from the earth beam on the back of the ship. (I don't by the ship running on a tiny beam that just fits in the sail. The ship will need to maneuver, and the transmitters couldn't hope to generate that much accuracy.) - The energy retuning to ship will drop off like a rock as the distance between ship and retro or drop mirror increases. Given that the mirror will not be that smooth (it will probably be rippling) the beam will be diverging badly after it reflects. - Need for active control systems on drop mirror. - Need for structural stiffening on drop mirror. ============================================================================== Kelly re: Timothy Subject : nanoAI >> >>We have ideas, the biggest problem is the enormous amounts >> >>of fuel that are needed. Lets say we use a >> >>take-all-fuel-with-you system. For matter&anti-matter fuel >> >> the ratio fuel:ship would be about 20:1 for small ships 1E4 >1E5 kg this >> >may be acceptable but for ships 1E8 or 1E9 kg >> >>its a completely different story. >> > >> >Your taking hundreds of tons of antimatter! That is a staggering amount to >> >manufacture, or even hold on to! >> >> My assumptions are that making anti-matter in 50 years will be about 50% >> efficient. Of course I can't be sure of this, but why wouldn't it? >> (Rethorical question) >> Besides this efficiency, I wonder why you are so blaffed by these numbers. >> These numbers are just the sum of the energy needed during 1 or 2 years of >> acceleration. >> If we build a maser beaming station, a similar amount of energy is needed. >> The only thing you do when transferring energy to anti-matter is making it a >> bit more permanent. It probably is the easiest way to store such amounts of >> energy. >> >> So the moral is, anti-matter is merely an amount of energy that is easier to >> keep in storage. Easier? The ship would still need to carry something like its own weight in matter anti-mater. A mass of thousands to millions of tons. Forward was hoping optimistically we'd be able to routinely generate and store milligrams to grams of antimatter. >> >> >People are mentally much more adaptable and reliable than any current >> >Nano/A.I. systems. >> >> You can't compare adaptability and reliable to CURRENT systems. That would >> be the same as to say that current engines would not work for our project >> and thus that it was not possible. True, but since no current A.I. system works very well, and no nano-tech systems work at all, I'd have a very hard time expecting them to be developed to that degree of reliability in 50 years. Its out there with the "we discover warp drive possibilities". Sooner or later we'll do them, or something like them; but they don't fit within LITs "no radical new tech" parameters >> From this I can conclude that I have a more optimistic view about nanotech >> and AI, then you do. >> Of course nanotech and AI are now in an early stage, but if 50 years ago, >> you had said what computers of today would be like, then they had laughed at >> you also. 50 years ago we had production computers. Only a handful, and their capacities were trivial be current standards; but thats farther than Nano/A.I. systems, and no current computer or automation system could attempt anything on the scale of what you are suggesting >> >>That is something completely different discussion: Why do we >> >>want to go there anyway. I was having a discussion with Nick >> >>Tosh about that, until his connection broke down. I can tell >> >>you, that I don't know why we want to go there so soon >> >>anyway. >> >>If you have an answer I'd like to know... >> > >> >As I remember the idea of LIT was to see if we could think of some way we >> >could build a starship in 2050 with probable technology of the day. Tau C >> >was selected as a target to focus the groups attention on. >> >> I know that, but I thought it was interesting to figure out why we want to >> go there. Is it just to have pissed on the ground there? Or is it because we >> want to colonize it? Or is it for scientific reasons? Or maybe all of them? >> All these things me be reasonable at first but, if you think a bit further, >> they make not much sense anymore... True. The LIT project assumed a big (blank check) push to go to Tau, but no reason or goal was given, and the group has never been able to agree on one. Thats a pretty big hole in the discussion, but since we also can't figure out how to get there in the first place its kind of a mute point. One thing I was considering was what we can do. My Explorer design could certainly be able to carry enough fusion fuel to decelerate from 1/10th C. Marshal Savage mention something like a 20 to 1 fuel to ship mass ration to do that. I'd like to check that, but for the moment will assume its true. Obviously trying to do that at 2/10ths C would take 20 squared (400) ship masses of fuel. So thats out, but at even those speeds drag is a serious factor. Savages book mentions that at near light speed the (one atom per cubic centimeter) inter-stellar Medium could cause up to 37 milligrams of drag pressure per square centimeter of frontal area. I'd like to work up the numbers for various interstellar densities and ship speeds; but it seems likely that some kind of magnetic or electrostatic, scoop or parachute could give us a big amount of breaking force. If we stay with a .1 to .2 C top speed ship we might be able to get a practical mission to some of the nearer stars. Not Tau C, but Alpha Centuri, Barnard's, Rigil Kent (Rigel kent A is a G2 yellow Main star at 4.4 LY, B is a K6 orange-main at 4.4). A .2 C ship could get there in a usable period of time. A version of my Explorer Fusion design could get there and back. If you have some reason of wanting to go there regularly. The first ship could assemble automated fuel launchers in the target systems. That would allow lighter ships to make the same run at higher speeds without carrying heavy fuel loads. (Assuming they trusted the fuel launcher at the receiving system to answer their launch command.) I suppose launching construction/survey flights might be practical (i.e someone might be willing to pay for them.) if they could be kept down to that length of time, and the public had an interests in the stars similar to the Apollo days. But what do we do there that would interest people that much? Science seems a pretty thin reason. Colonies can be built in this solar system just as well as another. Apollo was run for the international prestige (specifically vs the Soviets). I can't see anyone coming up to threaten a specific group that much by 2050; but even without that the project might attract enough enthusiasm among a major country to fund it. (My experience on International space projects makes me discount them out of hand.) So I guess what we want to do there is a question that we'd need to resolve. More specifically why we'ld feel we needed to do it then? If you willing to wait another half century. You could expect to have relyable equipment based on physics unknown to us now. (Matter conversion? Time space distortion? Such things have been seriously proposed.) Kelly From popserver Tue Dec 12 18:11:19 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1935" "Tue" "12" "December" "1995" "09:19:36" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.magec.com" nil "45" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: kgstar@most.magec.com Received: from most.magec.com (gw1.magec.com [151.168.2.3]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id GAA16681 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 06:25:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by most.magec.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16294; Tue, 12 Dec 95 09:22:04 EST Received: from unknown(151.168.254.82) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI016212; Tue Dec 12 09:20:33 1995 Received: by most (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02033; Tue, 12 Dec 95 09:20:30 EST Received: from ss4.magec.com(151.168.145.199) by most via smap (V1.5khhunt) id sma002022; Tue Dec 12 09:19:39 1995 Received: from [151.168.158.72] by ss4.uiv (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01252; Tue, 12 Dec 95 09:19:35 EST X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.magec.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: kgstar@most.magec.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) To: KellySt@aol.com Cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, david@interworld.com, MLEN3097@mercury.gc.peachnet.edu, kgstar@most.magec.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 09:19:36 -0500 Ram mass? Ram Scoop collector 1000 km diameter scoop 200 tons. The speed of light is 300,000 kilometers per second Assuming your moving at 1/3rd the speed of light (100,000 kilometer per second, or 1E10 cm/sec) with a scoop area of 1000 km (pi*R^2=pi(50,000,000cm)^2 = 7.854E15 cm^2). You'd be scooping up the mass in 7.854 E25 cubic centimeters of space. A big question is the composition of interstellar space. A classic assumption is that there is nothing but about 1 atom of hydrogen in a cubic centimeter of space. More recently, people guess it might be less than .054 atoms per cubic centimeter or as many as 10. Even more recently than that (say the last few months) it has been proposed that there may be a lot of long-chain carbon molecules in space. Perhaps 60-200 atoms / molecules. These small, dark, heavy molecules might be the missing 90-99% of the mass of the galaxy (euphemistically called "dark matter"). So far, no one really knows. This is unfortunate, because the composition of the interstellar medium makes a hell of a difference in the design of a RAIR-based starship. Since we don't know one way or the other, let's assume one atom per cubic centimeter at a proton mass of 1.673 E-27 Kg. At 0.333c, using the above design figures, our 1000 km in diameter scoop, scoops up a ram flow of 131.4 grams per second. thats 473 kilos per hour 4.14 million kilos per year. Given a ship weighing hundreds of times that. This isn't going to slow us down much. Of course the mass of inter stellar medium is hotly debated. Some give numbers 100 times heavyer, but others think its much less. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks Internet: kgstar@most.magec.com Sr. Systems Engineer Magnavox Electronic Systems Company (Magnavox URL: http://www.magec.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From popserver Thu Dec 14 18:07:49 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2216" "Wed" "13" "December" "1995" "19:18:32" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "44" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com (mail06.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.108]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id QAA07839 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 16:20:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA24227; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 19:18:32 -0500 Message-ID: <951213191826_72201277@mail06.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, david@interworld.com, MLEN3097@mercury.gc.peachnet.edu Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 19:18:32 -0500 We were talking about how much drag we might be able to get out of the interstellar medium. I dug some old numbers out of my LIT web page and tinkered with them. Note that my numbers were for 1.3rd light speed, so I didn't bother with relativity corrections. Kelly Starks ================================================== Ram Scoop collector 1000 km diameter scoop 200 tons. The speed of light is 300,000 kilometers per second Assuming your moving at 1/3rd the speed of light (100,000 kilometer per second, or 1E10 cm/sec) with a scoop area of 1000 km (pi*R^2=pi(50,000,000cm)^2 = 7.854E15 cm^2). You'd be scooping up the mass in 7.854 E25 cubic centimeters of space. A big question is the composition of interstellar space. A classic assumption is that there is nothing but about 1 atom of hydrogen in a cubic centimeter of space. More recently, people guess it might be less than .054 atoms per cubic centimeter or as many as 10. Even more recently than that (say the last few months) it has been proposed that there may be a lot of long-chain carbon molecules in space. Perhaps 60-200 atoms / molecules. These small, dark, heavy molecules might be the missing 90-99% of the mass of the galaxy (euphemistically called "dark matter"). So far, no one really knows. This is unfortunate, because the composition of the interstellar medium makes a hell of a difference in the design of a RAIR-based starship. Since we don't know one way or the other, let's assume one atom per cubic centimeter at a proton mass of 1.673 E-27 Kg. At 0.333c, using the above design figures, our 1000 km in diameter scoop, scoops up a ram flow of 131.4 grams per second. thats 473 kilos per hour 4.14 million kilos per year. (4,140 metric tons per year.) Given a ship weighing hundreds of times that. This isn't going to slow us down much. But if we want to assume lots of carbon molecules, the mass could jump up to the mass of the ship per year. But thats probably a bad assumption here near Sol. Seems this area of the galaxy is in a big bubble of space blasted nearly clean of debries by a recent supernova. So we may be living in one of the worst areas of the galaxy for a ramscoop, or ram breaked, starship. Kelly From popserver Thu Dec 14 19:13:04 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["7390" "Thu" "14" "December" "1995" "20:09:36" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "142" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id LAA12543 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:08:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA03098 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 14 Dec 1995 20:09:29 +0100 Message-Id: <199512141909.AA03098@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 20:09:36 +0100 Timothy re: Kelly Subject : Plasma mirror >You still haven't dealt with the problems of a drop mirror. > - Given that the point of the exercise is that the mirror and ship will >accelerate apart until they are moving apart at nearly light speed. They >will be getting very far apart, and the "Retro-mirror" will need to aim to >track the decelerating ship. By having the ships flat reflector mirror the >size of the full power mirrors you eliminate the retro-mirror needs to focus, >but not to keep aiming at the retreating ship. "Very far" would be something like 2 ly: The mirror and the ship will be furthest apart when the Asimov has decelerated and is near TC. It takes approximately 8 years to decelerate the Asimov. The mirror never exceeds the speed of light and thus travels about 8 ly. It is released from the Asimov when 6 ly from TC. So after 8 years the Asimov has decelerated and is near TC. The mirror is then thus 2 ly further than TC and the Asimov. So the extra distance is not so much as you would think. But of course still the problem of aiming is there. I've no solution other than some gyro-system. But what I don't understand is what is the difference between aiming the beam that comes from Earth and the beam that comes from the retro-mirror? The only thing the retro-mirror has to do is not turn, so it does not have to aim but just not have to turn. Do you know what the difference is between aiming the beam from Earth and aiming from the retro-mirror? > In trade you've added increased need for structural material, and added >extra forward thrust from the earth beam on the back of the ship. (I don't >by the ship running on a tiny beam that just fits in the sail. The ship will >need to maneuver, and the transmitters couldn't hope to generate that much >accuracy.) Increased structural material, indeed, but that does not matter, because the heavier the retro-mirror the less the doppler shifts. I don't buy you saying that the beam may be much bigger than the mirror. If you throw away most of the energy anyway, just by using a mirror that is too small, than you could also use an engine that has a worthless effeciency. Furthermore, I don't see why the ship wants to maneuver so much. It always has to stay in the beam for most of the time. If indeed the accuracy of the transmitters is that worse, my advice is to no use the beaming idea. >- The energy retuning to ship will drop off like a rock as the distance >between ship and retro or drop mirror increases. Given that the mirror will >not be that smooth (it will probably be rippling) the beam will be diverging >badly after it reflects. How well do you think that a plasma will reflect? Probably my almost flat mirror would do a much better job. I really don't agree using a beam for about 10% or less. It should be at least 50% otherwise, other systems may be more effecient. ============================================================================== Timothy re: Kelly Subject : nanoAI >Easier? The ship would still need to carry something like its own weight in >matter anti-mater. A mass of thousands to millions of tons. Forward was >hoping optimistically we'd be able to routinely generate and store milligrams >to grams of antimatter. Once again, anti-matter is just energy. The only thing that is important is the efficiency. How well can we transfer energy to matter? My assumtion is that this efficiency should be about 50% in 2040. If this isn't reasonable, than indeed it is a bad choice. My guess is that Forward also has no idea of generating 10E18 Watts of power or a total amount of 1E26 Joules of energy! And this is approx. the energy and power needed for most designs. >True, but since no current A.I. system works very well, and no nano-tech >systems work at all, I'd have a very hard time expecting them to be developed >to that degree of reliability in 50 years. Its out there with the "we >discover warp drive possibilities". Sooner or later we'll do them, or >something like them; but they don't fit within LITs "no radical new tech" >parameters Have you seen any (well) working plasma-mirrors yet? I really think that nanoAI is not that exotic as you think. The AI systems of today are capable of learning to read out loud (but not to understand). One of the things that keeps them from doing more difficult tasks is the amount of "neurons" (currently about 1E8 or so). This amount depends both on fast and vast memories. There has just been designed a chip with a build in neural-network for all kinds of purposes. About nano-tech I know a bit less, but certainly there are significant breaktroughs. And nano-tech has the same potential as computers had. Once there is a beginning, growth will be exponentially. >One thing I was considering was what we can do. My Explorer design could >certainly be able to carry enough fusion fuel to decelerate from 1/10th C. > Marshal Savage mention something like a 20 to 1 fuel to ship mass ration to >do that. I'd like to check that, but for the moment will assume its true. I checked it and its even better. For acceleration and deceleration a ratio of 1:10 when the exhaust speed is about 0.088 c (Quite critical value) For 0.2c the ratio becomes 1:100 and for 0.3c it is about 1:1100 > Obviously trying to do that at 2/10ths C would take 20 squared (400) ship >masses of fuel. So thats out, but at even those speeds drag is a serious >factor. Savages book mentions that at near light speed the (one atom per >cubic centimeter) inter-stellar Medium could cause up to 37 milligrams of >drag pressure per square centimeter of frontal area. I'd like to work up the >numbers for various interstellar densities and ship speeds; but it seems >likely that some kind of magnetic or electrostatic, scoop or parachute could >give us a big amount of breaking force. 3E10 cm/s * 1 atom/cm^3 = 3E10 atoms/cm^2 3E10 atoms/cm^2 * 1.67E-27 kg/atom = 5E-17 kg/cm^2 As you can see that number of Savage is completely wrong. (I did this calculation a week ago also!) >If we stay with a .1 to .2 C top speed ship we might be able to get a >practical mission to some of the nearer stars. Not Tau C, but Alpha Centuri, >Barnard's, Rigil Kent (Rigel kent A is a G2 yellow Main star at 4.4 LY, B is >a K6 orange-main at 4.4). A .2 C ship could get there in a usable period of >time. A version of my Explorer Fusion design could get there and back. If >you have some reason of wanting to go there regularly. The first ship could >assemble automated fuel launchers in the target systems. That would allow >lighter ships to make the same run at higher speeds without carrying heavy >fuel loads. (Assuming they trusted the fuel launcher at the receiving system >to answer their launch command.) 4.4/0.2=22 years for a complete one way trip. Not better than we are currently planning for TC. >So I guess what we want to do there is a question that we'd need to resolve. > More specifically why we'ld feel we needed to do it then? If you willing to >wait another half century. You could expect to have relyable equipment based >on physics unknown to us now. (Matter conversion? Time space distortion? > Such things have been seriously proposed.) This was what I meant, and I haven't got a clue what the answer could be. But as you said this has nothing to do with the initial goal of SD. Timothy From popserver Sat Dec 16 18:03:12 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["16120" "Fri" "15" "December" "1995" "23:08:09" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "347" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id UAA21343 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 20:09:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA24326; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 23:08:09 -0500 Message-ID: <951215230809_91593264@mail04.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl cc: Bogart1594@aol.com, David@interworld.com, lunar@sunsite.unc.edu Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 23:08:09 -0500 >> Timothy re: Kelly >> Subject : Plasma mirror >> >> >You still haven't dealt with the problems of a drop mirror. >> > - Given that the point of the exercise is that the mirror and ship will >> >accelerate apart until they are moving apart at nearly light speed. They >> >will be getting very far apart, and the "Retro-mirror" will need to aim to >> >track the decelerating ship. By having the ships flat reflector mirror the >> >size of the full power mirrors you eliminate the retro-mirror needs to focus, >> >but not to keep aiming at the retreating ship. >> >> "Very far" would be something like 2 ly: >> The mirror and the ship will be furthest apart when the Asimov has >> decelerated and is near TC. >> It takes approximately 8 years to decelerate the Asimov. The mirror never >> exceeds the speed of light and thus travels about 8 ly. It is released from >> the Asimov when 6 ly from TC. So after 8 years the Asimov has decelerated >> and is near TC. The mirror is then thus 2 ly further than TC and the Asimov. >> >> So the extra distance is not so much as you would think. But of course still >> the problem of aiming is there. I've no solution other than some >> gyro-system. But what I don't understand is what is the difference between >> aiming the beam that comes from Earth and the beam that comes from the >> retro-mirror? The only thing the retro-mirror has to do is not turn, so it >> does not have to aim but just not have to turn. >> Do you know what the difference is between aiming the beam from Earth and >> aiming from the retro-mirror? Yes, the beam from earth can be maintained by a massive infrastructure of people carefully tuning it to keep it in the track to T.C. They also can make up for accuracy problems by making a bigger beam. Transmitting a hundred or a thousand times as much power as needed to compensate for all the waste that misses the ship. Thats not very efficient (but thats not a problem), and will cost a lot more (which might be a problem); but it could still work. (Actually you would need to do that anyway in order to give the ship some room to maneuver around in the beam.) The retro-sail on the other hand is a weak flimsy structure of huge dimensions, which has to keep a pinpoint aim of nearly all its reflected energy at a distance of light years. A neat trick given its basically a huge unsupported sheet of foil being blown along by the beam. Oh, and it would have to keep a pinpoint aim on a moving object up to two light years away. So it would be 2 years out of date in its understanding of where the ship was, and was going. And no you can't just not turn. First, given the load on it from the beam, its certain it will being twisted by beam asysmetries. Secound the ship can't be in direct line between the mirror and the beam, so their will be a changing angular offset. >> > In trade you've added increased need for structural material, and added >> >extra forward thrust from the earth beam on the back of the ship. (I don't >> >by the ship running on a tiny beam that just fits in the sail. The ship will >> >need to maneuver, and the transmitters couldn't hope to generate that much >> >accuracy.) >> >> Increased structural material, indeed, but that does not matter, because the >> heavier the retro-mirror the less the Doppler shifts. Also the more power you need to drive it and the ship up to speed, and more power needs for its maneuvering systems to turn it to keep aimed at the ship. Besides you couldn't possibly add enough mass to a structure hundreds to thousands of kilometers across to keep it optically flat! >> I don't buy you saying that the beam may be much bigger than the mirror. If >> you throw away most of the energy anyway, just by using a mirror that is too >> small, than you could also use an engine that has a worthless efficiency. The beam must be much bigger then the sail, and wasting energy isn't a critical problem. The purpose of the beam is to drive the ship. As long as enough of the beam gets to the ship to do that, the system can work. (I.E. the it can get the ship where it wants to go.) Efficiency is a cost concern, but would not effect the success of the project. After all you don't have to move the transmitters. The ships engines however have to be pretty efficient in order to get the job done (and not melt the ship in the process). We're nowhere near being able to design a starship that can "affordably" get back and forth to Tau Ceti. >> Furthermore, I don't see why the ship wants to maneuver so much. It always >> has to stay in the beam for most of the time. >> If indeed the accuracy of the transmitters is that worse, my advice is to no >> use the beaming idea. I expect it will need to maneuver around any interstellar rocks or other such junk. (Hitting a 4 kilometer comet at relativistic speeds is hard on the hull!!) One advantage of the beamed concept is that the unreflected energy acts as a radar searchlight to show whats ahead of the ship. >> >- The energy returning to the ship will drop off like a rock as the distance >> >between ship and retro or drop mirror increases. Given that the mirror will >> >not be that smooth (it will probably be rippling) the beam will be diverging >> >badly after it reflects. >> >> How well do you think that a plasma will reflect? Probably my almost flat >> mirror would do a much better job. The plasma reflector will be right next to the ship (surrounded by it actually). So couldn't possibly miss the ship, and doesn't need to keep a tightly aimed beam. The retro-mirror on the other hand will be up to 2 light years from the ship, and need to reflect a perfectly beam that converges inward toward a smaller drive mirror on the ship. The later is a much harder problem. >> I really don't agree using a beam for about 10% or less. It should be at >> least 50% otherwise, other systems may be more efficient. Do you mean you don't want to use a beam system thats that inefficient? Efficiency in catching the beam is a luxury we can worry about later. Right now we're just trying to devise a system that could possibly get us there at all! The choice isn't going wastefully vs going efficiency, but going wastefully or not going at all! ============================================================================== >> >> Timothy re: Kelly >> Subject : nanoAI >> >> >Easier? The ship would still need to carry something like its own weight in >> >matter anti-mater. A mass of thousands to millions of tons. Forward was >> >hoping optimistically we'd be able to routinely generate and store milligrams >> >to grams of antimatter. >> >> Once again, anti-matter is just energy. The only thing that is important is >> the efficiency. How well can we transfer energy to matter? My assumption is >> that this efficiency should be about 50% in 2040. If this isn't reasonable, >> than indeed it is a bad choice. >> My guess is that Forward also has no idea of generating 10E18 Watts of power >> or a total amount of 1E26 Joules of energy! >> And this is approx. the energy and power needed for most designs. I have no idea how you plan to convert energy directly to anti-matter. Certainly thats not how we make it now. Even if we could generate the anti matter, how would you store and move amounts on that scale safely? And of course how do you refuel for the return trip? Your probably right about the E18+ power being a 'show stopper' thou. I can't think of any reasonable scenario that would have us able to put that kind of power on line, in space, in about 50 years. >> >True, but since no current A.I. system works very well, and no nano-tech >> >systems work at all, I'd have a very hard time expecting them to be developed >> >to that degree of reliability in 50 years. Its out there with the "we >> >discover warp drive possibilities". Sooner or later we'll do them, or >> >something like them; but they don't fit within LITs "no radical new tech" >> >parameters >> >> Have you seen any (well) working plasma-mirrors yet? I really think >> that nanoAI is not that exotic as you think. >> The AI systems of today are capable of learning to read out loud (but not to >> understand). One of the things that keeps them from doing more difficult >> tasks is the amount of "neurons" (currently about 1E8 or so). This amount >> depends both on fast and vast memories. There has just been designed a chip >> with a build in neural-network for all kinds of purposes. >> About nano-tech I know a bit less, but certainly there are significant >> breakthroughs. And nano-tech has the same potential as computers had. Once >> there is a beginning, growth will be exponentially. Your definitely more optimistic about nano and A.I. than I. We after all can and do reflect radio and microwave off ionized gas all the time. We have no Nano systems, and are making painfully slow progress in A.I. (A.I. first learned to read aloud over ten years ago.) So I do think they are unlikely to be mature enough in 50 years to help us much. Actually, even if they did work, they wouldn't solve any critical problems for us. Just improve effecency and affordability. >> >One thing I was considering was what we can do. My Explorer design could >> >certainly be able to carry enough fusion fuel to decelerate from 1/10th C. >> > Marshal Savage mention something like a 20 to 1 fuel to ship mass ration to >> >do that. I'd like to check that, but for the moment will assume its true. >> >> I checked it and its even better. For acceleration and deceleration a ratio >> of 1:10 when the exhaust speed is about 0.088 c (Quite critical value) >> >> For 0.2c the ratio becomes 1:100 and for 0.3c it is about 1:1100 Hum... I just ran some numbers through the LIT Delta V program using the specific impulse of Bussards Fusion engines. I got about the same numbers at ..3c but I though I got slightly better numbers at .2c. But I don't have the numbers with me. Then again, I'm not even sure the LIT program nows to add the need to accelerate the fuel mass with the ship (I certainly hope it does, I'll have to test it.) >> > Obviously trying to do that at 2/10ths C would take 20 squared (400) ship >> >masses of fuel. So thats out, but at even those speeds drag is a serious >> >factor. Savages book mentions that at near light speed the (one atom per >> >cubic centimeter) inter-stellar Medium could cause up to 37 milligrams of >> >drag pressure per square centimeter of frontal area. I'd like to work up the >> >numbers for various interstellar densities and ship speeds; but it seems >> >likely that some kind of magnetic or electrostatic, scoop or parachute could >> >give us a big amount of breaking force. >> >> 3E10 cm/s * 1 atom/cm^3 = 3E10 atoms/cm^2 >> 3E10 atoms/cm^2 * 1.67E-27 kg/atom = 5E-17 kg/cm^2 >> >> As you can see that number of Savage is completely wrong. (I did this >> calculation a week ago also!) Yeah, I dug up some numbers from my old web page (see above) that showed he was off the wall too. (Well at relativistic speeds time dilation might help his numbers) Looks like no magnetic drag chutes. >> >If we stay with a .1 to .2 C top speed ship we might be able to get a >> >practical mission to some of the nearer stars. Not Tau C, but Alpha Centauri, >> >Barnard's, Rigil Kent (Rigel kent A is a G2 yellow Main star at 4.4 LY, B is >> >a K6 orange-main at 4.4). A .2 C ship could get there in a usable period of >> >time. A version of my Explorer Fusion design could get there and back. If >> >you have some reason of wanting to go there regularly. The first ship could >> >assemble automated fuel launchers in the target systems. That would allow >> >lighter ships to make the same run at higher speeds without carrying heavy >> >fuel loads. (Assuming they trusted the fuel launcher at the receiving system >> >to answer their launch command.) >> >> 4.4/0.2=22 years for a complete one way trip. Not better than we are >> currently planning for TC. But, it would require far simpler systems, and a fraction of the power. A comparatively simple fusion powered ship with fuel launchers in sol could make a round trip. If it builds a big fuel launcher in the target system it could even cut the return trip time down. Like I said above, I ran some numbers off using the delta-v program on the LIT site, and got a 60 to 1 fuel to ship mass ration for a .2c Delta v, using the Bussard fusion drive motors. Thats not an impossible number (bad, but not impossible). So I think such a ship could be built by 2050. So we could get to the nearer stars. At .2c we could get to the 4.5 to 5ish ly stars in 22-25 years. Which should be quick enough to be do able (thou its pushing it!), thou the crew will probably die durring the 25 year return flight. On the return flight the ship would load up with enough fuel to boost it back up to speed. It couldn't possibly carry enough fuel to accelerate, and decelerate! So it will have to use fuel launched by the Sol fuel launchers to power its deceleration boost. (Better home the folks back home still like you! ;) ) But then again, if we bring enough gear to build a fuel launcher at the target star system. The ship could boost for home with little or no fuel on board. Its speed wouldn't be limited to the maximum speed it can get out of the stored fuel its carring, or that it can carry the deceleration fuel to stop from. Accelerating with near empty fuel tanks the ship will weight a tiny fraction of the max weight its engines and structure were designed for. The crew could keep the extra for redundancy (the ship will be getting old by then), or they could strip some or all of the systems off to lighten the ship even further. Allowing the crew to boost at higher G's in the acceleration track, order to get to higher speeds. Remember, the limitation on accelerating in a pre-launched fuel stream. Is how far out you can get before the fuel gets so spread out that you can't scoop up enough fuel to run the engines. I.E. how accuratly can you launcher put the fuel? A striped down ship could not only accelerate faster, getting to higher speeds within a given distence from the fuel launcher. It could also get by on less fuel, allowing it to still keep up thrust farther out from the fuel launcher then its heavyer brother. If the folks back home really like you. They will have upgraded their fuel launcher in your absence. Allowing you to get a usable fuel density at far farther out from Sol. >> >So I guess what we want to do there is a question that we'd need to resolve. >> > More specifically why we'd feel we needed to do it then? If you willing to >> >wait another half century. You could expect to have reliable equipment based >> >on physics unknown to us now. (Matter conversion? Time space distortion? >> > Such things have been seriously proposed.) >> >> This was what I meant, and I haven't got a clue what the answer could be. >> But as you said this has nothing to do with the initial goal of SD. Yeah, but it seems to be an issue we need to resolve. As is, a .2 C ship with the ability to go faster with fuel launchers at both ends, seems reasonable by 2050. A near light speed ship seems out of the question. The microwave sail idea requires completely absurd amounts of power, and we can't seem to find a practical way to stop the ship. So until we change the physics we have to work with (or learn a much better way to manufacture and store anti-matter) we are limited to slower, shorter range fights. But flights that would be technically (and financially) far less chalenging. Does anyone disagree? Kelly P.S. Where is David? I keep geting undeliverable mail mesages when I ship to his office. Has anyone heard from him lately? P.P.S. Opps, I forgot to look up the thrust to weight ratio of the Bussard plasma engines. If their too low, the ship wouldn't be able to carry enough fuel. From popserver Sat Dec 16 20:38:55 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["12175" "Sat" "16" "December" "1995" "21:36:56" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "243" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id MAA16981 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 12:36:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA21246 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 16 Dec 1995 21:36:50 +0100 Message-Id: <199512162036.AA21246@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 21:36:56 +0100 Timothy re: Kelly Subject : Plasma mirror >Yes, the beam from earth can be maintained by a massive infrastructure of >people carefully tuning it to keep it in the track to T.C. They also can >make up for accuracy problems by making a bigger beam. Transmitting a >hundred or a thousand times as much power as needed to compensate for all the >waste that misses the ship. Thats not very efficient (but thats not a >problem), and will cost a lot more (which might be a problem); but it could >still work. (Actually you would need to do that anyway in order to give the >ship some room to maneuver around in the beam.) > >The retro-sail on the other hand is a weak flimsy structure of huge >dimensions, which has to keep a pinpoint aim of nearly all its reflected >energy at a distance of light years. A neat trick given its basically a huge >unsupported sheet of foil being blown along by the beam. Oh, and it would >have to keep a pinpoint aim on a moving object up to two light years away. > So it would be 2 years out of date in its understanding of where the ship >was, and was going. OK, I see the difference. But what I want to make clear is that it does not have to know where the ship is. (see next comment) >And no you can't just not turn. First, given the load on it from the beam, >its certain it will being twisted by beam asysmetries. Secound the ship >can't be in direct line between the mirror and the beam, so their will be a >changing angular offset. What I meant with no turning, was that it just had to reflect the beam STRAIGHT back. To do that is has a very precise orientation: the incoming beam. The mirror does not have to track a moving object, that is the task of the Earth beaming station. If Earth beams it to the Asimov, then it also aims to the mirror. because the Asimov and the retro-mirror are always lined up. >Also the more power you need to drive it and the ship up to speed, and more >power needs for its maneuvering systems to turn it to keep aimed at the ship. > Besides you couldn't possibly add enough mass to a structure hundreds to >thousands of kilometers across to keep it optically flat! Both are true, but since you are talking about losses of 99% or 99.9% (due to beam that is bigger than the mirror) I guess that energy to maneuver is just a minor extra. Also the heavier the mirror, the less it is turned by the beam, so it takes less to turn it back. (So the total energy stays about the same) >The beam must be much bigger then the sail, and wasting energy isn't a >critical problem. The purpose of the beam is to drive the ship. As long as >enough of the beam gets to the ship to do that, the system can work. (I.E. >the it can get the ship where it wants to go.) Efficiency is a cost concern, >but would not effect the success of the project. After all you don't have to >move the transmitters. The ships engines however have to be pretty efficient >in order to get the job done (and not melt the ship in the process). We're >nowhere near being able to design a starship that can "affordably" get back >and forth to Tau Ceti. Efficiency is not only a cost concern, if we had 100 to 1000 times more energy available, then certain things would be a lot easier. >I expect it will need to maneuver around any interstellar rocks or other such >junk. (Hitting a 4 kilometer comet at relativistic speeds is hard on the >hull!!) One advantage of the beamed concept is that the unreflected energy >acts as a radar searchlight to show whats ahead of the ship. I think that the beam from Earth has completely ionized and blown away these rocks before the Asimov gets into sight. Also there won't be that many big rocks in interstellar space. (If they were, they would certainly make a good braking force) >The plasma reflector will be right next to the ship (surrounded by it >actually). So couldn't possibly miss the ship, and doesn't need to keep a >tightly aimed beam. The retro-mirror on the other hand will be up to 2 light >years from the ship, and need to reflect a perfectly beam that converges >inward toward a smaller drive mirror on the ship. The later is a much harder >problem. Both the retro-mirror and the mirror on the Asimov are about the same size! You say the plasma surrounds the ship, I thought they were at the TC side of the ship. Does design looks like this: ) ------------) /) (--------| Plasma (--------| Plasma \) ------------) ) ( are the small mirror at the Earth side of the Asimov ) are the big mirror at TC side of the Asimov -- / \ Light rays As soon as the photons hit the plasma how are they reflected? >Do you mean you don't want to use a beam system thats that inefficient? >Efficiency in catching the beam is a luxury we can worry about later. Indeed, that's what I'm saying. If a system is only 10% or even 0.1% efficient, then for example a fusion system that uses a 1:1000 ship:fuel ratio as well. >Right >now we're just trying to devise a system that could possibly get us there at >all! The choice isn't going wastefully vs going efficiency, but going >wastefully or not going at all! I do not agree, as I said before, the anti-matter engine WILL work. Only you do think that it is very difficult to make anti-matter if you have the energy available. I, on the other hand don't see a reason why this should be so extremely difficult in 50 years. (And if efficiency isn't that important this will certainly be an option) My calculations tell me that to reach 0.9c one needs approximately: 1 spoon of spacevessel 1 spoon of anti-matter 4 spoons of normal matter ============================================================================== Timothy re: Kelly Subject : nanoAI >I have no idea how you plan to convert energy directly to anti-matter. > Certainly thats not how we make it now. Even if we could generate the anti >matter, how would you store and move amounts on that scale safely? And of >course how do you refuel for the return trip? Today we use the brute force method of collision. The particles that are created during that collision are not used and the energy of them is thrown away after detecting them. (nothing gets much overheated since we are talking about only a few particles) The biggest losses are due to the cooling of the (super-conducting) magnets. If such a collider is build in space or if room-temp. supercoliders are discovered these big losses may come down. Also the collision should be made more efficient in the way that some particles like neutrons and protons are created more often than other particles. I think this could be done by using the exact right collision energies. Another possibility could be to create an energy field (eg. a box with a lot of photons) Then more (virtual) particles will form that may be extracted. This method is never used because it is not so easy to create such high energy fields, but I think it should work. How to store the anti-matter? Just like normal matter, create anti-atoms and anti-solids. Finally charge it and suspend it in electro/magnetic bottles. OK, it sounds easy, but it seems to be possible. How to refuel? First of all, I'm not so certain that it will return. You would be 65 when you're back on Earth while all you worked and lived for is on TC. Just to come back and play the hero doesn't seem that much fun. But if you really want, than you have to build a refueling station at TC. Too difficult? All methods need to build some kind of beaming or fuel station at TC and all are probably difficult to realize. >Your probably right about the E18+ power being a 'show stopper' thou. I can't >think of any reasonable scenario that would have us able to put that kind of >power on line, in space, in about 50 years. I think that we have to assume that this minimum is possible, otherwise no system is possible unless we "invent" anti-gravity, or if we use a ship that has much less mass (which is almost impossible). So it would be better if one the rules of the SD "discussion" was that a minimum (unknown?) power source of 1E18 watt is available in 2040. >Your definitely more optimistic about nano and A.I. than I. We after all can >and do reflect radio and microwave off ionized gas all the time. We have no >Nano systems, and are making painfully slow progress in A.I. (A.I. first >learned to read aloud over ten years ago.) So I do think they are unlikely >to be mature enough in 50 years to help us much. We indeed do reflect radio-waves, but we do that always at a non-perpendicular angle. I'm not sure but, I think it works worse for right angles. >Actually, even if they did work, they wouldn't solve any critical problems >for us. Just improve effecency and affordability. Increasing efficiency or affordability make any design more probable and feasable. If for example the space shuttle had AI and nanotech. it would probably much more saver, reliable and cheaper. If one makes such a big ship, a lot of things may go wrong and endanger the trip. The more complex the ship, the more probable that the trip isn't completed. NanoAI will decrease that probability significantly. >Hum... I just ran some numbers through the LIT Delta V program using the >specific impulse of Bussards Fusion engines. I got about the same numbers at >.3c but I though I got slightly better numbers at .2c. But I don't have the >numbers with me. Then again, I'm not even sure the LIT program nows to add >the need to accelerate the fuel mass with the ship (I certainly hope it does, >I'll have to test it.) I've made a derivation and a Pascal program that can do such calculations. It's on the WWW at URL: http://www.cpedu.rug.nl/~N0642983/calc.txt >Like I said above, I ran some numbers off using the delta-v program on the >LIT site, and got a 60 to 1 fuel to ship mass ration for a .2c Delta v, >using the Bussard fusion drive motors. Thats not an impossible number (bad, >but not impossible). So I think such a ship could be built by 2050. So we >could get to the nearer stars. At .2c we could get to the 4.5 to 5ish ly >stars in 22-25 years. Which should be quick enough to be do able (thou its >pushing it!), thou the crew will probably die durring the 25 year return >flight. My ratios where for acceleration AND deceleration together. Nearer goals would indeed make a better chance of succeeding, also it would be a cheaper way to "test" interstellar space-trips. The disadvantage is of course that the number of stars is much smaller and so are the chances of finding lifeforms or habitable planets. >Remember, the limitation on accelerating in a pre-launched fuel stream. Is >how far out you can get before the fuel gets so spread out that you can't >scoop up enough fuel to run the engines. I.E. how accuratly can you launcher >put the fuel? A striped down ship could not only accelerate faster, getting >to higher speeds within a given distence from the fuel launcher. It could >also get by on less fuel, allowing it to still keep up thrust farther out >from the fuel launcher then its heavyer brother. If the folks back home >really like you. They will have upgraded their fuel launcher in your >absence. Allowing you to get a usable fuel density at far farther out from >Sol. I've done some calculations, these show there is not that much profit (in energy) when one compares prelaunching with take-all-with-you (from now on TAWY). >So until we change the physics we have to work with (or learn a much better >way to manufacture and store anti-matter) we are limited to slower, shorter >range fights. But flights that would be technically (and financially) far >less chalenging. Does anyone disagree? Indeed, even with anti-matter there will be a limit, it will be something like 100 ly. But what a world would we create: It isn't possible to ask something and receive an answer within a lifetime. Even 4 ly is a big barrier. What happens if one creates a world that far away from Earth. It is in fact a isolated world. There won't be interactive communication. All information streams will be one way (from boths sides). Timothy From popserver Sun Dec 17 18:07:23 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2417" "Sun" "17" "December" "1995" "10:07:58" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "48" "RE: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: David@InterWorld.com Received: from www (interworld.com [165.254.130.4]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id HAA07789 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 07:05:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by www with Microsoft Mail id <01BACC67.8D248AB0@www>; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 10:08:02 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BACC67.8D3CF4B0" From: David Levine To: "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" , "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" , "'KellySt@aol.com'" , "rddesign@wolfenet.com" , "RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com" , "stevev@efn.org" To: "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" , "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" Subject: RE: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 10:07:58 -0500 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BACC67.8D3CF4B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Um, gang, sorry about the confusion. Our T1 has been down for over a week. Ugh. Anyway, I'm back on the air. It's going to take me a while to get back to speed, but at least mail to me won't bounce anymore. Thanks for understanding. David -- David Levine - Senior Applications Programmer - InterWorld http://www.interworld.com/staff/david/ "He tried to kill me with a forklift..." -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BACC67.8D3CF4B0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IgMPAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEFgAMADgAAAMsHDAARAAoA BwA6AAAAOgEBCYABACEAAABERDk1REQxQUY3MzdDRjExQUMwNzAwODA1RjE0QTJGMAA+BwEggAMA DgAAAMsHDAARAAoACAACAAAAAwEBCIAHABgAAABJUE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEE gAEAGwAAAFJFOiBFbmdpbmVlcmluZyBOZXdzbGV0dGVyAKkJAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEDkAYA9AMA ABIAAAALACMAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAB4AcAABAAAAFwAAAEVuZ2luZWVy aW5nIE5ld3NsZXR0ZXIAAAIBcQABAAAAGwAAAAG6y/KFp1DRaQY34RHPrAYAgF8UovAAJ47j8gAD AAYQw5K5cgMABxB4AQAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAAVU0sR0FORyxTT1JSWUFCT1VUVEhFQ09ORlVTSU9O T1VSVDFIQVNCRUVORE9XTkZPUk9WRVJBV0VFS1VHSEFOWVdBWSxJTUJBQ0tPTlRIRUFJUklUU0dP SU5HVE9UQUtFTUVBVwAAAAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAAgEJEAEAAABQAgAATAIAAMgDAABMWkZ1 tjzfav8ACgEPAhUCqAXrAoMAUALyCQIAY2gKwHNldDI3BgAGwwKDMgPFAgBwckJxEeJzdGVtAoMz twLkBxMCgzQSzBTINREMtjEPzwIANgPGFMV9CoCLCM8J2Tsa+TEyOAojxxzRHBoKFDI1NQKACoGD DbELYG5nMTAzFFAXCwoUUQvyYxKgIFVtWCwgZx9hIXBzBbByHHkgAaAIYAVAdGhlYiAFoG5mdQCQ AiAuyCAgTwhwIFQX4BGAhQQgYgnhIGRvdwOgZQIQcgqFb3YEkCJAIIp3CeBrI4FVZ2gjgUBBbnl3 YXkhcEnsJ20kUADQayWQA6AiskULcHIjgUl0JwQgZypvC4BnIqBvIqBha+5lCoUHgCXiaAMQItAp cU5nEcAnlClxc3AJ4GT1IXBiIoFhBUAq0CQwBUCvAMADESlxKlF3AiAnK1F5CGBuYynWAHAGwAWw ZZYuCoUKhVQRgG5rBCC9JQEgLmAEgRPAAHBkKTFBL41EYXZpZAqLbLhpMzYN8CA8E1BvE9DeYwVA Co8LkRViMRkgIRAnAFAAoDVGLS0yeiBM6mUzAG4i0C0GUQMABbHkQXALUGljLKAjUQQg5lADYAnA YW0HgAXAObBWSQIwBJBXBbBsMyZoQQJAcDovL3c9YC4vC4A8AS3gPFEuBaBtL1MxcQ3QL2Qy8i81 xSLeSCrhCIE5IClxawMQAyDdLbJpIrAl4SUBazQAAYD6LkIAIjXFOFBCz0PfRO/fRf9GQgtGFvE3 MDc1PhohAgBJcEAAOQCw82Rzkcy6AQIBRwABAAAANAAAAGM9VVM7YT0gO3A9SW50ZXJXb3JsZDts PVByaXZhdGUgTURCLTk1MTIxNzE1MDc1OVotMQBAAAcwEHVjc5HMugFAAAgwoJ4UdpHMugEeAD0A AQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAAIBFDQBAAAAEAAAAFSUocApfxAbpYcIACsqJRcXFg== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BACC67.8D3CF4B0-- From popserver Mon Dec 18 18:02:37 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["11190" "Sun" "17" "December" "1995" "22:45:54" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "267" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com (emout06.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.43]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id TAA05766 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 19:46:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA09592; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 22:45:54 -0500 Message-ID: <951217224552_57060897@emout06.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl cc: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 22:45:54 -0500 > > Timothy re: Kelly > Subject : Plasma mirror > What I meant with no turning, was that it just had to reflect the beam > STRAIGHT back. To do that is has a very precise orientation: the incoming > beam. The mirror does not have to track a moving object, that is the task of > the Earth beaming station. If Earth beams it to the Asimov, then it also > aims to the mirror. because the Asimov and the retro-mirror are always lined up. That wouldn't work, but eiather way. Straight back is still a direction to aim at, and it couldn't do it. --- snip --- > >The beam must be much bigger then the sail, and wasting energy isn't a > >critical problem. The purpose of the beam is to drive the ship. As long as > >enough of the beam gets to the ship to do that, the system can work. (I.E. > >the it can get the ship where it wants to go.) Efficiency is a cost concern, > >but would not effect the success of the project. After all you don't have to > >move the transmitters. The ships engines however have to be pretty efficient > >in order to get the job done (and not melt the ship in the process). We're > >nowhere near being able to design a starship that can "affordably" get back > >and forth to Tau Ceti. > > Efficiency is not only a cost concern, if we had 100 to 1000 times more > energy available, then certain things would be a lot easier. > > >I expect it will need to maneuver around any interstellar rocks or other such > >junk. (Hitting a 4 kilometer comet at relativistic speeds is hard on the > >hull!!) One advantage of the beamed concept is that the unreflected energy > >acts as a radar searchlight to show whats ahead of the ship. > > I think that the beam from Earth has completely ionized and blown away these > rocks before the Asimov gets into sight. Also there won't be that many big > rocks in interstellar space. (If they were, they would certainly make a good > braking force) We have no real idea whats in interstellar space, but is fair to expect a few comets, asteroids ect; and I don't think we can plan on everything in our way getting neatly blown out of the way. > >The plasma reflector will be right next to the ship (surrounded by it > >actually). So couldn't possibly miss the ship, and doesn't need to keep a > >tightly aimed beam. The retro-mirror on the other hand will be up to 2 light > >years from the ship, and need to reflect a perfectly beam that converges > >inward toward a smaller drive mirror on the ship. The later is a much harder > >problem. > > Both the retro-mirror and the mirror on the Asimov are about the same size! NO! A retro reflecter mirror wil not work unless the retro-mirror is much bigger. -If its the same size and the retro mirror is straight in frount of the ship. It will be in the shaddow of the ships drag mirror. So it won't 'see' any of the beam to reflect. - Even if its not in the line of sight. Being the same size as the drag mirror on the ship. It can't reflect anymore energy back to the drag mirror, than the mirror gets directly from earth. So It wouldn't be able to decelerate the ship. So it will have to be larger and focus the beam backward to a smaller beam. > > You say the plasma surrounds the ship, I thought they were at the TC side of > the ship. Does design looks like this: > > ) > -------------) > //) > (--------| Plasma > (--------| Plasma > \\) > ------------) > ) > > ( are the small mirror at the Earth side of the Asimov > ) are the big mirror at TC side of the Asimov > -- / \ Light rays Pretty much it. Imagine the ship as a hollow pipe with a plasma in the inside of the pipe and in frount of it. (The ship surrounds the plasma, not the other way round.) The microwaves are reflected back and inward by the forward main ring sial, toward the rear ring sail (drag sail) which reflects it forward inside the open area of the ship toward the plasma. It heats and is reflected off the plasma backward. > As soon as the photons hit the plasma how are they reflected? > > >Do you mean you don't want to use a beam system thats that inefficient? > >Efficiency in catching the beam is a luxury we can worry about later. > > Indeed, that's what I'm saying. If a system is only 10% or even 0.1% > efficient, then for example a fusion system that uses a 1:1000 ship:fuel > ratio as well. As well what? Efficency is not nessisary for a system to be usable, but a ship that needs to carry a thousand times its weight in fuel simply can't be built. > >Right > >now we're just trying to devise a system that could possibly get us there at > >all! The choice isn't going wastefully vs going efficiency, but going > >wastefully or not going at all! > > I do not agree, as I said before, the anti-matter engine WILL work. Only you > do think that it is very difficult to make anti-matter if you have the > energy available. I, on the other hand don't see a reason why this should be > so extremely difficult in 50 years. > (And if efficiency isn't that important this will certainly be an option) You've never suggested how you think such amounts of anti-matter could be made. Or how we could build such engines. Or store such amounts of antimater. 2050 is to close for us to overcome all those problems on that scale. > Another possibility could be to create an energy field (eg. a box with a lot > of photons) Then more (virtual) particles will form that may be extracted. > This method is never used because it is not so easy to create such high > energy fields, but I think it should work. Why? We've never tried any of it. > How to store the anti-matter? Just like normal matter, create anti-atoms and > anti-solids. Finally charge it and suspend it in electro/magnetic bottles. > OK, it sounds easy, but it seems to be possible. In theory, but its a big jump from theoretically possible to usable. > How to refuel? First of all, I'm not so certain that it will return. You > would be 65 when you're back on Earth while all you worked and lived for is > on TC. Just to come back and play the hero doesn't seem that much fun. > But if you really want, than you have to build a refueling station at TC. > Too difficult? All methods need to build some kind of beaming or fuel > station at TC and all are probably difficult to realize. We went around on that question a lot a few months ago. Yes you have to bring the crews back. No one would fund a suicide run without a desparte need, and we don't have one. > >Your probably right about the E18+ power being a 'show stopper' thou. I can't > >think of any reasonable scenario that would have us able to put that kind of > >power on line, in space, in about 50 years. > > I think that we have to assume that this minimum is possible, otherwise no > system is possible unless we "invent" anti-gravity, or if we use a ship that > has much less mass (which is almost impossible). > So it would be better if one the rules of the SD "discussion" was that a > minimum (unknown?) power source of 1E18 watt is available in 2040. Or limit the discussion to systems and power levels that seem likely. > >Your definitely more optimistic about nano and A.I. than I. We after all can > >and do reflect radio and microwave off ionized gas all the time. We have no > >Nano systems, and are making painfully slow progress in A.I. (A.I. first > >learned to read aloud over ten years ago.) So I do think they are unlikely > >to be mature enough in 50 years to help us much. > > We indeed do reflect radio-waves, but we do that always at a > non-perpendicular angle. I'm not sure but, I think it works worse for right > angles. > > >Actually, even if they did work, they wouldn't solve any critical problems > >for us. Just improve effecency and affordability. > > Increasing efficiency or affordability make any design more probable and > feasable. If for example the space shuttle had AI and nanotech. it would > probably much more saver, reliable and cheaper. True, but since we havn't figured out a near lightspeed ship thats more than marginaly plausible, trying to cut costs on it doesn't mater. All that would do would be to make a nonfunctional system cheaper. > If one makes such a big ship, a lot of things may go wrong and endanger the > trip. The more complex the ship, the more probable that the trip isn't > completed. NanoAI will decrease that probability significantly. But of course, Nano are about the most complex and unrepairable systems we've even theorized making. > >Like I said above, I ran some numbers off using the delta-v program on the > >LIT site, and got a 60 to 1 fuel to ship mass ration for a .2c Delta v, > >using the Bussard fusion drive motors. Thats not an impossible number (bad, > >but not impossible). So I think such a ship could be built by 2050. So we > >could get to the nearer stars. At .2c we could get to the 4.5 to 5ish ly > >stars in 22-25 years. Which should be quick enough to be do able (thou its > >pushing it!), thou the crew will probably die durring the 25 year return > >flight. > > My ratios where for acceleration AND deceleration together. > > Nearer goals would indeed make a better chance of succeeding, also it would > be a cheaper way to "test" interstellar space-trips. > The disadvantage is of course that the number of stars is much smaller and > so are the chances of finding lifeforms or habitable planets. I'm suspicious of your fuel numbers. They seem too favorable. The odds of finding lifeforms and planets are how to judge. Certainly we're only taking about a handful of stars within search range. But it seems likely all of them could have planets, and we have no idea how picky life is about where it can form. In Sol, earths a yes, Mars is a maybe (please send unbroken lab gear) Venus I'd bet strongly against. As for the rest and their moons... ?? One thing we can be sure of, none of the planets out there will be habitable. Earth wouldn't be habitable to us if we hadn't evolved here. In any event a handfull of starsystems should keep us busy for a couple decades. Obviously past 2100 all the systems were discussing will seem archaic, and our physics quite naive. > >Remember, the limitation on accelerating in a pre-launched fuel stream. Is > >how far out you can get before the fuel gets so spread out that you can't > >scoop up enough fuel to run the engines. I.E. how accuratly can you launcher > >put the fuel? A striped down ship could not only accelerate faster, getting > >to higher speeds within a given distence from the fuel launcher. It could > >also get by on less fuel, allowing it to still keep up thrust farther out > >from the fuel launcher then its heavyer brother. If the folks back home > >really like you. They will have upgraded their fuel launcher in your > >absence. Allowing you to get a usable fuel density at far farther out from > >Sol. > > I've done some calculations, these show there is not that much profit (in > energy) when one compares prelaunching with take-all-with-you (from now on > TAWY). So? It would make a critical difference in the fuel mass ratio of the ship. Kelly From popserver Tue Dec 19 23:13:17 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["8619" "Tue" "19" "December" "1995" "23:51:31" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "192" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id OAA07773 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 1995 14:51:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA05561 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 19 Dec 1995 23:51:11 +0100 Message-Id: <199512192251.AA05561@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 23:51:31 +0100 Timothy re: Kelly Subject : Plasma mirror >>What I meant with no turning, was that it just had to reflect the beam >>STRAIGHT back. To do that is has a very precise orientation: the >>incoming beam. The mirror does not have to track a moving object, that >>is the task of the Earth beaming station. If Earth beams it to the >>Asimov, then it also aims to the mirror. because the Asimov and the >>retro-mirror are always lined up. > >That wouldn't work, but eiather way. Straight back is still a direction >to aim at, and it couldn't do it. Is it really that hard to keep the mirror straight? And still, if the beam deviates, the Asimov can still follow it (too a certain amount) by redirecting its own mirror. Doesn't this problem arise also on the Asimov itself, it too uses a big mirror to accelerate, if its mirror is a bit offside, it is out of the beam in seconds. If you move 1E8 metres in one second, only minute angles are needed to be off the "road" 1E4 metres or so. >We have no real idea whats in interstellar space, but is fair to expect a >few comets, asteroids ect; and I don't think we can plan on everything in >our way getting neatly blown out of the way. If there are indeed so many rocks that we have to worry, then we certainly should make use of them. How big do you think the chances are that any of these lumps comes even near the Asimov? >NO! A retro reflecter mirror wil not work unless the retro-mirror is much >bigger. >-If its the same size and the retro mirror is straight in frount of the > ship. > It will be in the shaddow of the ships drag mirror. So it won't 'see' > any of the beam to reflect. >-Even if its not in the line of sight. Being the same size as the drag > mirror on the ship. It can't reflect anymore energy back to the drag > mirror, > than the mirror gets directly from earth. So It wouldn't be able to > decelerate the ship. These two remarks mean that you haven't understood how I planned to make that retro-mirror! It was constructed of two mirrors at a right angle to each other... (See previous letters) A|----\ O-----------/ >> ) >> -------------) >> //) >> (--------| Plasma >> (--------| Plasma >> \\) >> ------------) >> ) >> >> ( are the small mirror at the Earth side of the Asimov >> ) are the big mirror at TC side of the Asimov >> -- / \ Light rays > >Pretty much it. Imagine the ship as a hollow pipe with a plasma in the >inside of the pipe and in frount of it. (The ship surrounds the plasma, >not the other way round.) The microwaves are reflected back and inward by >the forward main ring sial, toward the rear ring sail (drag sail) which >reflects it forward inside the open area of the ship toward the plasma. >It heats and is reflected off the plasma backward. And then after it has reflected backward? The ship needs to absorb or better to reflect the photons in the direction of TC. If it reflects straight back, then it enters the plasma pipe, that must mean trouble. Please tell me what happens after the (first) reflection on the plasma. >> Indeed, that's what I'm saying. If a system is only 10% or even 0.1% >> efficient, then for example a fusion system that uses a 1:1000 ship:fuel >> ratio as well. > >As well what? Efficency is not nessisary for a system to be usable, but a >ship that needs to carry a thousand times its weight in fuel simply can't >be built. I really don't see why, please explain. (See also the last paragraph of this letter.) >You've never suggested how you think such amounts of anti-matter could be >made. Or how we could build such engines. Or store such amounts of >antimater. 2050 is to close for us to overcome all those problems on that >scale. That means fusion is also out of the question! I've heard that the first commercial fusion power plant would be there at 2050. From there it is still a big step to scaling up such a power plant about 1E8 times. And if fusion isn't our source for the beaming station what is? A mirror-array to collect the energy of the Sun would be too large or too difficult to construct. The current electricity capacity of the world is about 3E12 Watt. So all what we have now should be scaled up 1E6 times! Finally we come to the conclusion that doing this in 2050 is completly out of the question. Even going to Alpha Centauri isn't possible, simply because we there isn't a power-source by then that can do the trick. >>How to store the anti-matter? Just like normal matter, create anti-atoms >>and anti-solids. Finally charge it and suspend it in electro/magnetic >>bottles. OK, it sounds easy, but it seems to be possible. > >In theory, but its a big jump from theoretically possible to usable. You are right. But the only experiment done with moving an object by laser light involved a mass of about a milligram. So that would mean that any lightsailing technique is not much more than theory too. What I mean is that probably none of the existing and almost-ready-to-use techniques could bring us to TC. >We went around on that question a lot a few months ago. Yes you have to >bring the crews back. No one would fund a suicide run without a desparte >need, and we don't have one. Staying there isn't necessary suicide! Going back may be a bigger risk. (On that question I didn't vote for a 2-way trip) >> I think that we have to assume that this minimum is possible, otherwise >> no system is possible unless we "invent" anti-gravity, or if we use a >> ship that has much less mass (which is almost impossible). >> So it would be better if one the rules of the SD "discussion" was that a >> minimum (unknown?) power source of 1E18 watt is available in 2040. > >Or limit the discussion to systems and power levels that seem likely. Lower power levels mean not going to TC! Lower levels mean a much longer trip, and we agreed that wasn't our goal. >> Increasing efficiency or affordability make any design more probable and >> feasable. If for example the space shuttle had AI and nanotech. it would >> probably much more saver, reliable and cheaper. > >True, but since we havn't figured out a near lightspeed ship thats more >than marginaly plausible, trying to cut costs on it doesn't mater. All >that would do would be to make a nonfunctional system cheaper. It makes a lot of difference if one needs 1000 Watt or 1000*1000 Watt. For the first a simple petrol-generator will do, but for de latter you need almost a complete power-plant. >> If one makes such a big ship, a lot of things may go wrong and endanger >> the trip. The more complex the ship, the more probable that the trip >> isn't completed. NanoAI will decrease that probability significantly. > >But of course, Nano are about the most complex and unrepairable systems >we've even theorized making. Maybe unrepairable, but there will be many of them, so one or two less doesn't matter. The strength of nano is not only their tinyness, but also their vastness (for small price? and weight). The goal will be that they become selfreproducive in a (hopefully) controlled way. >The odds of finding lifeforms and planets are how to judge. Certainly >we're only taking about a handful of stars within search range. But it >seems likely all of them could have planets, and we have no idea how picky >life is about where it can form. In Sol, earths a yes, Mars is a maybe >(please send unbroken lab gear) Venus I'd bet strongly against. As for >the rest and their moons... ?? > >One thing we can be sure of, none of the planets out there will be >habitable. Earth wouldn't be habitable to us if we hadn't evolved here. Why wouldn't they be habitable? It would be possible that there are already other forms of life there. (Not necessary intelligent) In any event a handfull of starsystems should keep us busy for a couple decades. Obviously past 2100 all the systems were discussing will seem archaic, and our physics quite naive. Probably the next century would keep us busy only by "colonizing" moon and mars. And maybe some nice asteroids for their low gravity. >> I've done some calculations, these show there is not that much profit >> (in energy) when one compares prelaunching with take-all-with-you (from >> now on TAWY). > >So? It would make a critical difference in the fuel mass ratio of the >ship. So, energy stays about the same, or even better it doesn't have to be produced it (the hydrogen) only has to be collected. Why would making a big lump of Hydrogen be so difficult? It doesn't all have to be launched from Earth (asteroids or moons?) Timothy From popserver Sat Dec 23 03:51:28 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["13039" "Fri" "22" "December" "1995" "22:43:22" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "287" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id TAA20804 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 19:44:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA23676; Fri, 22 Dec 1995 22:43:22 -0500 Message-ID: <951222224321_22042979@mail02.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 22:43:22 -0500 Oh, any idea why the LIT site droped off the SUNSITE server again? >> Timothy re: Kelly >> Subject : Plasma mirror >> >> >>What I meant with no turning, was that it just had to reflect the beam >> >>STRAIGHT back. To do that is has a very precise orientation: the >> >>incoming beam. The mirror does not have to track a moving object, that >> >>is the task of the Earth beaming station. If Earth beams it to the >> >>Asimov, then it also aims to the mirror. because the Asimov and the >> >>retro-mirror are always lined up. >> > >> >That wouldn't work, but eiather way. Straight back is still a direction >> >to aim at, and it couldn't do it. >> >> Is it really that hard to keep the mirror straight? And still, if the beam >> deviates, the Asimov can still follow it (too a certain amount) by >> redirecting its own mirror. Its kind of like balencing a meter square sheet of aluminum foil on the blast from a fire extiquisher, and expect it to never wrinkle or twist. >> Doesn't this problem arise also on the Asimov itself, it too uses a big >> mirror to accelerate, if its mirror is a bit offside, it is out of the beam >> in seconds. If you move 1E8 metres in one second, only minute angles are >> needed to be off the "road" 1E4 metres or so. The ring sail is anchored to the ship. Sort of like a parachute. I.E. a parachute attached to a weight forms a nice shape. Cut the corts and it turns into a lose sheet flutering and twisting down. Unevenness in the beam will tend to cause the ship to difft back and forth, but aslong as the beam is far larger than the sail, and the transmitions failly even (also helped by an oversized beam). It should be managable. >> >We have no real idea whats in interstellar space, but is fair to expect a >> >few comets, asteroids ect; and I don't think we can plan on everything in >> >our way getting neatly blown out of the way. >> >> If there are indeed so many rocks that we have to worry, then we certainly >> should make use of them. How big do you think the chances are that any of >> these lumps comes even near the Asimov? How could you make use of them? Your runing past them at a relativistic speed. Hopefully the odds are low, but prudent designers assume they will have the worst possible luck. >> >NO! A retro reflecter mirror wil not work unless the retro-mirror is much >> >bigger. >> >-If its the same size and the retro mirror is straight in frount of the >> > ship. >> > It will be in the shaddow of the ships drag mirror. So it won't 'see' >> > any of the beam to reflect. >> >-Even if its not in the line of sight. Being the same size as the drag >> > mirror on the ship. It can't reflect anymore energy back to the drag >> > mirror, >> > than the mirror gets directly from earth. So It wouldn't be able to >> > decelerate the ship. >> >> These two remarks mean that you haven't understood how I planned to make >> that retro-mirror! >> It was constructed of two mirrors at a right angle to each other... (See >> previous letters) >> >> A|----\ >> O-----------/ Sorry thought that idea was droped. With this you have two mirrors flaping in the breze trying to aim at something. Your odds of aiming accuratly have droped accordingly. Also you still have to focus back toward a smaller sail on the ship. >> >> ) >> >> -------------) >> >> //) >> >> (--------| Plasma >> >> (--------| Plasma >> >> \\) >> >> ------------) >> >> ) >> >> >> >> ( are the small mirror at the Earth side of the Asimov >> >> ) are the big mirror at TC side of the Asimov >> >> -- / \ Light rays >> > >> >Pretty much it. Imagine the ship as a hollow pipe with a plasma in the >> >inside of the pipe and in frount of it. (The ship surrounds the plasma, >> >not the other way round.) The microwaves are reflected back and inward by >> >the forward main ring sial, toward the rear ring sail (drag sail) which >> >reflects it forward inside the open area of the ship toward the plasma. >> >It heats and is reflected off the plasma backward. >> >> And then after it has reflected backward? The ship needs to absorb or better >> to reflect the photons in the direction of TC. Yes. If you could work out the angles and put a flat drag sail straight behind the ship (inside the rear ring sail that reflected the energy to the plasma) that would be ideal. Assuming the plasma isn't perfectly flat (highly likely) some energy will be reflected outward and it should be accounted for in the design of the ship. >> If it reflects straight back, then it enters the plasma pipe, that must mean trouble. >> Please tell me what happens after the (first) reflection on the plasma. Ideally, the beam reflects straight back toward a flat drag sail behind the ship (and straglers bounce of the inside of the ship tpward the drag sail). The beam is then directed forward toward the plasma again, and bounces back again. The plasma gets an extra boost forward. Then the ship gets an extra push backward. (repeat until beam is lost, absorbed, or canceled out by out of phase other parts of beam.) >> >> Indeed, that's what I'm saying. If a system is only 10% or even 0.1% >> >> efficient, then for example a fusion system that uses a 1:1000 ship:fuel >> >> ratio as well. >> > >> >As well what? Efficency is not nessisary for a system to be usable, but a >> >ship that needs to carry a thousand times its weight in fuel simply can't >> >be built. >> >> I really don't see why, please explain. (See also the last paragraph of this >> letter.) Because you can't build a craft thats engines and structure are so light, strong, and powerfull; that they could carry a weight a thousand times greater than their own and accelerate it at about 1 G. As a mater of fact I'm concerned that a fusion driven ship capable of carrying 40 or 60 times its weight is overly optimistic. (But I haven't gotten aroiund to looking up the numbers in the Bussard papers.) Also of course if the energy to accelerate the fuel doesn't need to be carried in the ship, the ship can get by on less fuel. >> >You've never suggested how you think such amounts of anti-matter could be >> >made. Or how we could build such engines. Or store such amounts of >> >antimater. 2050 is to close for us to overcome all those problems on that >> >scale. >> >> That means fusion is also out of the question! I've heard that the first >> commercial fusion power plant would be there at 2050. From there it is still >> a big step to scaling up such a power plant about 1E8 times. >> And if fusion isn't our source for the beaming station what is? Fusion could be developed in a decade or so if their was any push for it. Possibly power for intersystem space craft might entice someone to invest in the R&D money for it. Though your right. Their are no current plans to do so. Nor for that matter to build enough of a space infastructure to support a project like this. But, if we had usable space launchers. There is a big pent up demand for public and comercial access to space. When that demand starts, building up to the space infastructure we'ld need. Think of how fast aviation and its infastructure developed between 1915 and 1965. >> >>How to store the anti-matter? Just like normal matter, create anti-atoms >> >>and anti-solids. Finally charge it and suspend it in electro/magnetic >> >>bottles. OK, it sounds easy, but it seems to be possible. >> > >> >In theory, but its a big jump from theoretically possible to usable. >> >> You are right. But the only experiment done with moving an object by laser >> light involved a mass of about a milligram. So that would mean that any >> lightsailing technique is not much more than theory too. Actually NASA played around with the idea on a satelight. A couple public groups were trying tyo build and launch a solar sailer in the '80's, but they never finished them. >> What I mean is that probably none of the existing and almost-ready-to-use >> techniques could bring us to TC. To T.C.? Definatly. Thats why we spent so much time on the maser mirrors and such. >> >We went around on that question a lot a few months ago. Yes you have to >> >bring the crews back. No one would fund a suicide run without a desparte >> >need, and we don't have one. >> >> Staying there isn't necessary suicide! Going back may be a bigger risk. If your planing to send yourself to somewhere you can't really live at, and can't come back from, its suicide. If you propose sending others there its murder; and no western government or major group would be allowed to launch such a mission. >> (On that question I didn't vote for a 2-way trip) >> >> >> I think that we have to assume that this minimum is possible, otherwise >> >> no system is possible unless we "invent" anti-gravity, or if we use a >> >> ship that has much less mass (which is almost impossible). >> >> So it would be better if one the rules of the SD "discussion" was that a >> >> minimum (unknown?) power source of 1E18 watt is available in 2040. >> > >> >Or limit the discussion to systems and power levels that seem likely. >> >> Lower power levels mean not going to TC! Lower levels mean a much longer >> trip, and we agreed that wasn't our goal. Agreed. >> >> Increasing efficiency or affordability make any design more probable and >> >> feasable. If for example the space shuttle had AI and nanotech. it would >> >> probably much more saver, reliable and cheaper. >> > >> >True, but since we havn't figured out a near lightspeed ship thats more >> >than marginaly plausible, trying to cut costs on it doesn't mater. All >> >that would do would be to make a nonfunctional system cheaper. >> >> It makes a lot of difference if one needs 1000 Watt or 1000*1000 Watt. For >> the first a simple petrol-generator will do, but for de latter you need >> almost a complete power-plant. If you can build one petrol (gasoline) generator, at worst you can build a thousand others and string them together for a special project. Maybe well start mass producing O'Neil type solar power sattelites. >> >> If one makes such a big ship, a lot of things may go wrong and endanger >> >> the trip. The more complex the ship, the more probable that the trip >> >> isn't completed. NanoAI will decrease that probability significantly. >> > >> >But of course, Nano are about the most complex and unrepairable systems >> >we've even theorized making. >> >> Maybe unrepairable, but there will be many of them, so one or two less >> doesn't matter. The strength of nano is not only their tinyness, but also >> their vastness (for small price? and weight). The goal will be that they >> become selfreproducive in a (hopefully) controlled way. Hopefully. Otherwise we launched a gray goo plague to T.C. ;-) Eiather way its pretty iffy tech, and doesn't solve the fundemental problems. >> >The odds of finding lifeforms and planets are hard to judge. Certainly >> >we're only taking about a handful of stars within search range. But it >> >seems likely all of them could have planets, and we have no idea how picky >> >life is about where it can form. In Sol, earths a yes, Mars is a maybe >> >(please send unbroken lab gear) Venus I'd bet strongly against. As for >> >the rest and their moons... ?? >> > >> >One thing we can be sure of, none of the planets out there will be >> >habitable. Earth wouldn't be habitable to us if we hadn't evolved here. >> >> Why wouldn't they be habitable? It would be possible that there are already >> other forms of life there. (Not necessary intelligent) Agreed. Their is a reasonable chance of finding worlds with ecologies as complex as Earth and with life forms similar to ours in size, complexity, etc... And if you could survive a couple secounds on them outside of a biosuit I'ld be stunned! The history of explorers here on this world, and our present problems with plagues like Ebola, AIDs, Etc, don't speak well for the odds of a carless interstellar explorer. Your microbes, and the planets microbes would rapibly try to digest the alien life forms it sees. >> >> In any event a handfull of starsystems should keep us busy for a >> >> couple decades. Obviously past 2100 all the systems were >> >> discussing will seem archaic, and our physics quite naive. >> >> Probably the next century would keep us busy only by "colonizing" moon and >> mars. And maybe some nice asteroids for their low gravity. True, though I think big platforms harvesting near earth asteroids and comet cores would go first. Moon and Mars lack a human healty gravity, and its much easier to ship the mined cargo from near earth objects around and much richer pickings!! (One estimate places the value of the oil on one average near earth comet core at several hundred billion dollars US!) Which is one of the reasons I expect space development to progress much faster than expected. Free-for-the-taker valuble materials tend to encourage that. ;-) Kelly From popserver Sun Dec 24 00:17:21 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["11133" "Sat" "23" "December" "1995" "23:06:55" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "224" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id OAA18740 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 1995 14:06:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA20832 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 23 Dec 1995 23:06:45 +0100 Message-Id: <199512232206.AA20832@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 23:06:55 +0100 >Oh, any idea why the LIT site droped off the SUNSITE server again? Yes, they had a major harddisk failure. Timothy re: Kelly Subject : Plasma mirror >> Is it really that hard to keep the mirror straight? And still, if the beam >> deviates, the Asimov can still follow it (too a certain amount) by >> redirecting its own mirror. > >Its kind of like balencing a meter square sheet of aluminum foil on the blast >from a fire extiquisher, and expect it to never wrinkle or twist. You should compare each of the 2 parts of the retro-mirror with a bridge over a valley. The mirror itself would be the road, behind the mirror there would be strenghtening structure, that would be curved just like the bridge. The mirror would stay reasonable flat just like the road that connects both sides of the valley. >The ring sail is anchored to the ship. Sort of like a parachute. I.E. a >parachute attached to a weight forms a nice shape. Cut the corts and it >turns into a lose sheet flutering and twisting down. This assumes the wind is constant and comes always from the same side without small deviations. As soon as the wind comes a bit from aside, the parachute will turn a bit so that its movement is parallel with the incoming wind. >>If there are indeed so many rocks that we have to worry, then we certainly >>should make use of them. How big do you think the chances are that any of >>these lumps comes even near the Asimov? > >How could you make use of them? Your runing past them at a relativistic >speed. Lower an anchor... :) But seriously, we have a minimum of 1E19 Watt available, with that power you could move a mountain (literal). Then why do we need so much power, we are only 2E9 kg? We move at 1E8 m/s relative to that energy, that's why. >Sorry thought that idea was droped. With this you have two mirrors flaping >in the breze trying to aim at something. Your odds of aiming accuratly have >droped accordingly. Also you still have to focus back toward a smaller sail >on the ship. I don't see why these mirrors are flapping, see also the above. >>If it reflects straight back, then it enters the plasma pipe, that must mean >>trouble. Please tell me what happens after the (first) reflection on the >>plasma. > >Ideally, the beam reflects straight back toward a flat drag sail behind the >ship (and straglers bounce of the inside of the ship tpward the drag sail). > The beam is then directed forward toward the plasma again, and bounces back >again. The plasma gets an extra boost forward. Then the ship gets an extra >push backward. (repeat until beam is lost, absorbed, or canceled out by out >of phase other parts of beam.) I assume that the plasma is replenished all the time. So at the same time that the plasma is replenished inside the plasma-pipe, there are also coming reflected photons from the TC side. Doesn't that create a problem? >Because you can't build a craft thats engines and structure are so light, >strong, and powerfull; that they could carry a weight a thousand times >greater than their own and accelerate it at about 1 G. As a mater of fact >I'm concerned that a fusion driven ship capable of carrying 40 or 60 times >its weight is overly optimistic. (But I haven't gotten aroiund to looking up >the numbers in the Bussard papers.) I don't see why you can build a craft of 1E8 kg that can propell itself but not a craft of 1E11 kg. Just scale up the engines. If that isn't possible, the initial acceleration should be less, after a while the ship gets lighter and the acceleration can be increased. >Also of course if the energy to accelerate the fuel doesn't need to be >carried in the ship, the ship can get by on less fuel. Yes, but that would involve a beaming technique. >Fusion could be developed in a decade or so if their was any push for it. > Possibly power for intersystem space craft might entice someone to invest in >the R&D money for it. Though your right. Their are no current plans to do >so. Nor for that matter to build enough of a space infastructure to support >a project like this. How much push did you have in mind? There is already much research going on. Already a few seconds of "controlled" fusion are possible. Development isn't possible yet, because not enough is known about the plasma flows that are used. >But, if we had usable space launchers. There is a big >pent up demand for public and comercial access to space. When that demand >starts, building up to the space infastructure we'ld need. Think of how fast >aviation and its infastructure developed between 1915 and 1965. You yourself told me that you can't compare past developments so easely with future developments. But I don't want to hold this against you, I also see that space will become a bigger and bigger part of the economy. I know that certain commercial firms (General Motors) are developing small easy to produce and relative cheap launchers. >Actually NASA played around with the idea on a satellite. A couple public >groups were trying tyo build and launch a solar sailer in the '80's, but they >never finished them. Wasn't there an experiment with a solarsail last month? >>What I mean is that probably none of the existing and almost-ready-to-use >>techniques could bring us to TC. > >To T.C.? Definatly. Thats why we spent so much time on the maser mirrors >and such. The mirrors might be feasable but how about the maser itself? Making a beam of 1 or 1000 kilometres in radius... that would mean a massive area filled with maser cannons. So actually the beam would consist of many small beams evenly distributed. Say we take a 100x100 km area, that is 1E10 square metres. We need a power of about 1E18 Watt per square kilometre, so if we install one maser per square metre, each maser (there would be 1E10 of them) should need a power of 1E12 Watt. So that means every maser needs its own fusion power plant, meaning 1E10 power plants. These power plants would need a total of about 5000 kg of fuel per second. This story is almost the same for Alpha Centauri as for Tau Ceti the biggest difference is the total time these masers have to be turned on. Or if you lower the acceleration you may devide all numbers by 10 or 100. I hope this makes clear why existing or almost-ready-to-use techniques are not usable. >If your planing to send yourself to somewhere you can't really live at, and >can't come back from, its suicide. If you propose sending others there its >murder; and no western government or major group would be allowed to launch >such a mission. It's just how you want to see it. Confing the crew to 15 years living in a spaceship is bad enough. Giving them another 15 years may be even worse. Probably most people would fail the psychological test only for this reason. Imagine 15 years in the same environment, always busy with the same kind of job, then finally you find a 10 whole planets to build new things. Would they really like to go back? Would it really be such a crime to let those people stay there and try to make a living? Even if it are all rotten planets (which is doubtful) it probably would be better to be there than to be in that stinking old spaceship for another 15 years If we aren't planning on staying there, why go there? If it's just to investigate it may be better to send unmanned probes. (That would be a task for AI) >>Lower power levels mean not going to TC! Lower levels mean a much longer >>trip, and we agreed that wasn't our goal. > >Agreed. So TC is out? >>It makes a lot of difference if one needs 1000 Watt or 1000*1000 Watt. For >>the first a simple petrol-generator will do, but for de latter you need >>almost a complete power-plant. > >If you can build one petrol (gasoline) generator, at worst you can build a >thousand others and string them together for a special project. Maybe well >start mass producing O'Neil type solar power sattelites. String them together, there you said it. Doing that is not as easy as you make it sound. You have to fuel them all, a mayor cloud of smoke would hang around them, no to mention the noise they would make. Other power supplies may not smoke or make noise but tying them together tends to make problems expand non-linear. For example, wires get thicker but their surface does increase at a slower rate, so the heat that is created by resistance has more difficulties to escape. >>Maybe unrepairable, but there will be many of them, so one or two less >>doesn't matter. The strength of nano is not only their tinyness, but also >>their vastness (for small price? and weight). The goal will be that they >>become selfreproducive in a (hopefully) controlled way. > >Hopefully. Otherwise we launched a gray goo plague to T.C. ;-) > >Eiather way its pretty iffy tech, and doesn't solve the fundemental problems. Safety is a fundamental problem. >Agreed. Their is a reasonable chance of finding worlds with ecologies as >complex as Earth and with life forms similar to ours in size, complexity, >etc... And if you could survive a couple secounds on them outside of a >biosuit I'ld be stunned! The history of explorers here on this world, and >our present problems with plagues like Ebola, AIDs, Etc, don't speak well for >the odds of a carless interstellar explorer. Your microbes, and the planets >microbes would rapibly try to digest the alien life forms it sees. I heard that our genes would probably be so different from independant developped species that they would mean no harm at all. But if they weren't we certainly would be able to immunize ourselves. The humane genome project would be completed by then and we would be able to detect and probably cure every virus-disease (including AIDS). The reason for the history of Earth-based explorers is that their genes are so identical to those of the species in the newly dicovered areas. >True, though I think big platforms harvesting near earth asteroids and comet >cores would go first. Moon and Mars lack a human healty gravity, and its >much easier to ship the mined cargo from near earth objects around and much >richer pickings!! (One estimate places the value of the oil on one average >near earth comet core at several hundred billion dollars US!) Which is one >of the reasons I expect space development to progress much faster than >expected. Free-for-the-taker valuble materials tend to encourage that. ;-) Comets are probably not very handy, there are few of them and they have a peculiar orbit. Asteroids would be easier but probably less rich of organic material. Do you know why comets have that much oil? Oil means organic leftovers. And if there is that much of it, that means there is a big chance of life out in the galaxy. As indeed many suggested once you start living on Mars or Moon, you can't go back to Earth easely. Maybe we should look for a low gravity object (a moon), work on the ground and sleep in orbiting space stations with artificial Earth-gravity. Or we should build massive spinning buildings that create 1g. Timothy P.S. Why does your mailer add 2 >'s and a space for replied pieces of text? It looks a bit messy... From popserver Sun Dec 24 22:51:14 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2053" "Sun" "24" "December" "1995" "13:38:30" "-0800" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" nil "47" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: rddesign@wolfenet.com Received: from wolfe.net (mail1.wolfe.net [204.157.98.11]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with ESMTP id NAA20762 for ; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 13:32:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from sea-ts1-p16.wolfenet.com (sea-ts1-p16.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.70]) by wolfe.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id NAA14438; Sun, 24 Dec 1995 13:38:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199512242138.NAA14438@wolfe.net> X-Sender: rddesign@gonzo.wolfenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: rddesign@wolfenet.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 13:38:30 -0800 (PST) >>If your planing to send yourself to somewhere you can't really live at, and >>can't come back from, its suicide. If you propose sending others there its >>murder; and no western government or major group would be allowed to launch >>such a mission. > >It's just how you want to see it. Confing the crew to 15 years living in a >spaceship is bad enough. Giving them another 15 years may be even worse. >Probably most people would fail the psychological test only for this reason. >Imagine 15 years in the same environment, always busy with the same kind of >job, then finally you find a 10 whole planets to build new things. Would >they really like to go back? Would it really be such a crime to let those >people stay there and try to make a living? Even if it are all rotten >planets (which is doubtful) it probably would be better to be there than to >be in that stinking old spaceship for another 15 years In system travel should give us a good idea of how well people adapt to space travel. A few missions of longer and longer duration to near and then farther planets would help to see the adaptiveness of humans to prolonged space flight. By the time we sent some folks to Titan and back we could refine the problem and work on means to sidestep these. > >If we aren't planning on staying there, why go there? If it's just to >investigate it may be better to send unmanned probes. (That would be a task >for AI) I agree to this. > >So TC is out? So it would seem. >>As indeed many suggested once you start living on Mars or Moon, you can't go >back to Earth easely. Maybe we should look for a low gravity object (a >moon), work on the ground and sleep in orbiting space stations with >artificial Earth-gravity. Or we should build massive spinning buildings that >create 1g. We are going to have to establish a solarsystem based society before we would be able to convince anyone of the need to go anywhere else. Ric PS: A Happy Holiday and a Happy New Years to you all. :-) The best Beads come from RD Designs. Ric & Denisse Hedman From popserver Tue Dec 26 05:05:20 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["9161" "Mon" "25" "December" "1995" "18:48:41" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "183" "Fwd: Space Access Update #60 12/24/95 (fwd)" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Fwd: Space Access Update #60 12/24/95" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com (mail06.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.108]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id PAA21573 for ; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 15:48:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA24789; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 18:48:41 -0500 Message-ID: <951225184840_99012300@mail06.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Subject: Fwd: Space Access Update #60 12/24/95 (fwd) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 1995 18:48:41 -0500 --------------------- Forwarded message: From: doughtd@pr.erau.edu (Donald Doughty) Sender: delta-clipper-approval@world.std.com Reply-to: delta-clipper@europe.std.com To: delta-clipper@world.std.com (DC-X) Date: 95-12-24 23:37:37 EST ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 10:46:50 -0500 (EST) From: hvanderbilt@BIX.com To: hvanderbilt@bix.com Subject: Space Access Update #60 12/24/95 Space Access Update #60 12/24/95 Copyright 1995 by Space Access Society _______________________________________________________________________ Stories this issue: - Where Have We Been? Where's My Tape? When Is Space Access '96? (Why *has* it been ten weeks since the last SAS Update?) - What The Heck Is Going On Anyway? (Reusable Launch News Summary) -----------------------(SAS Policy Boilerplate)------------------------ Space Access Update is Space Access Society's when-there's-news publication. Space Access Society's goal is to promote affordable access to space for all, period. We believe in concentrating our resources at whatever point looks like yielding maximum progress toward this goal. Right now, we think this means working our tails off trying to get the government to build and fly a high-speed reusable rocket demonstrator, one or more "X-rockets", in the next three years, in order to quickly build up both experience with and confidence in reusable Single-Stage To Orbit (SSTO) technology. The idea is to reduce SSTO technical uncertainty (and thus development risk and cost) while at the same time increasing investor confidence, to the point where SSTO will make sense as a private commercial investment. We have reason to believe we're not far from that point now. Our major current focus is on supporting the government's fully reusable single-stage rocket technology programs, the low-speed DC-XA, and its high-speed followon, the X-33 NASA/DOD/industry cooperative project. With luck and hard work, we should see fully-reusable rocket testbeds flying into space well before the end of this decade, with practical orbital transport projects getting underway. Join us, and help us make it happen. Henry Vanderbilt, Executive Director, Space Access Society To join Space Access Society or buy the SSTO/DC-X V 3.0 video we have for sale (Two hours, includes all eight DC-X flights, X-33, DC-X and SSTO backgrounders, aerospike engine test-stand footage, plus White Sands Missile Range DC-X pre and post flight footage) mail a check to: SAS, 4855 E Warner Rd #24-150, Phoenix AZ 85044. SAS membership with direct email of Space Access Updates is $30 US per year; the SSTO V 3.0 video is $25, $5 off for SAS members, $8 extra for shipping outside the US and Canada, VHS NTSC only. For more info on our upcoming Space Access '96 conference, email: space.access@space-access.org __________________________________________________________________________ Winding Up The Year We've been hearing questions lately, wondering if we'd left the planet ahead of everyone else. We've been busy as hell with some long-term payoff work, and there's been no one earthshaking development in the affordable access field, so we let the next Update slide for a week or two... And now it's over ten weeks, and the little things happening a bit at a time have begun to add up to some interesting trends. It's Update time again - but for now, the condensed holiday version. All the full-length news and informed opinion you can stand Real Soon Now... Those of you waiting for video tapes, all the backordered version 2.0 DC-X/SSTO tapes went into the mail December 22nd. It seems unlikely they'll arrive before Christmas; our apologies for the massive delay. You will find in them a discount certificate for the 3.0 video by way of amends. The long overdue (please, no letter bombs - we bruise easily!) version 3.0 X-33/DC-X/SSTO video now looks like being ready to go to the duplicators the first week of January; backorders will be in the mail immediately thereafter. Yes, we most likely got your order; we've been holding off cashing the checks out of the remnants of a sense of decency and fair play. We hope you'll think the footage we've found is worth the wait. We hope you won't march on SAS HQ with tar and feathers in the meantime... And it's getting toward that time of year again. Our next annual conference, Space Access '96, will be happening April 26-28 1996, Friday evening through Sunday afternoon, once again in Phoenix Arizona. We're going to go bigtime aerospace one of these years, do it during the working week at a posh resort at a thousand bucks a head, but not yet - SA'96 registration is still only $80 if postmarked before January 15th, when it goes up to $90, higher at the door. SA'96 will again be at a hotel within easy shuttle-bus distance of the Phoenix airport; we're currently negotiating with several and should have one nailed down shortly. Previous attendees, tell 'em - this really is worth the trouble to attend. Phoenix is a hub for Southwest and America West, and also served by Western Pacific, Continental, United, Delta, American, etc. There's no lack of cheap airfares if you plan ahead - so be here! Meanwhile, we wish you all a warm and peaceful holiday season, and we'll sign off on that note... What? Tar and feathers? Reusable Launch News Summary Oh, all right. The capsule version of the news... DC-XA is coming along OK, albeit the minor delays are piling up to the point where we'd guess it'll be a few weeks late flying, late spring rather than early. NASA tried to cancel X-34 at the start of November, but there was no wooden stake handy (actually the White House intervened), so it lives still, more or less - development cost is climbing, performance dropping, schedule slipping, and we hear that projected ops costs are rising to more or less the same as Pegasus. Which makes sense, since X- 34 now has as many stages as a Pegasus - carrier aircraft, winged booster, two upper stages - and will likely be at least as complex to integrate and operate. X-33 is doing OK; the picture is beginning to firm up as to what might actually fly and how much it'll cost. Much more on this next Update. The X-33 draft Phase 2 CAN (phase 2 is the actual construction and flight test of one or more X-33's, starting this summer) can be found at, among other places, http://www.space-access.org, our new under- construction web page. (Please, no critiques until we've actually had time to *do* something with the site!) Comments on the draft CAN are due January 22nd; email any comments you have to us at space.access@space-access.org at least one week before that, and we'll run the interesting ones past our advisory board before finalizing SAS's formal comments. After a once-over, we think it looks pretty good; the only "gotcha" we've spotted so far is the clause linking an X-33 go-ahead next summer to continued existance of X-34. Tsk, tsk, naughty naughty, we say - that's a pretty raw attempt to hold X-33 hostage to the highly dubious X-34 project on someone's part. X-33 funding for FY'96 looks fairly assured over on the NASA side, if the HUD/VA/Independent Agencies appropriation ever gets clear of the "train wreck". In theory, there's $25m for reusable rocket work actually appropriated now over in DOD, but the DOD bill was signed only because the White House has to pay for the Bosnia expedition somehow. Look for a major, multi-billion DOD rescissions list in the coming months, and look for an attempt to put our $25m on it. And once we beat that, look for months of delay in releasing the money. This is getting to be a familiar fight, but it's one we've won every time so far. And both McDonnell-Douglas and Lockheed-Martin are investing around $300 million each of private money in upgraded expendable commercial launch vehicles (Delta 3 and Atlas 2AR respectively), and both Kistler Aerospace and Kelly Space & Technology have money and are going ahead with their private reusable space launch ventures. We just might get to the point where government funding is irrelevant to a thriving cheap launch industry sooner than anyone expects. Merry Christmas, y'all. And an interesting New Year... ____________________________________________________________________________ Space Access Society "Reach low orbit and you're halfway to anywhere 4855 E Warner Rd #24-150 in the Solar System." Phoenix AZ 85044 - Robert A. Heinlein 602 431-9283 voice/fax email: "You can't get there from here." space.access@space-access.org - Anonymous - Permission granted to redistribute the full and unaltered text of this - - piece, including the copyright and this notice. All other rights - - reserved. In other words, intact crossposting is strongly encouraged. - From popserver Tue Dec 26 05:05:26 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["11387" "Mon" "25" "December" "1995" "18:48:59" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "288" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.37]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id PAA21601 for ; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 15:49:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA14396; Mon, 25 Dec 1995 18:48:59 -0500 Message-ID: <951225184858_23629365@emout05.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Mon, 25 Dec 1995 18:48:59 -0500 > Timothy re: Kelly > Subject : Plasma mirror > > >> Is it really that hard to keep the mirror straight? And still, if the beam > >> deviates, the Asimov can still follow it (too a certain amount) by > >> redirecting its own mirror. > > > >Its kind of like balencing a meter square sheet of aluminum foil on the blast > >from a fire extiquisher, and expect it to never wrinkle or twist. > > You should compare each of the 2 parts of the retro-mirror with a bridge > over a valley. The mirror itself would be the road, behind the mirror there > would be strenghtening structure, that would be curved just like the bridge. > The mirror would stay reasonable flat just like the road that connects both > sides of the valley. Reasonably flat, and optically flat are very different! Optically focused over light-years is even more different. Again, you can't use a 2 part retro mirror since the drag mirror on the ship has to be much smaller. > >The ring sail is anchored to the ship. Sort of like a parachute. I.E. a > >parachute attached to a weight forms a nice shape. Cut the corts and it > >turns into a lose sheet flutering and twisting down. > > This assumes the wind is constant and comes always from the same side > without small deviations. As soon as the wind comes a bit from aside, the > parachute will turn a bit so that its movement is parallel with the incoming > wind. Not a big problem with a point source beam (effectivly point source). Even given unevenness in the beam it should be handelable. > > >>If it reflects straight back, then it enters the plasma pipe, that must mean > >>trouble. Please tell me what happens after the (first) reflection on the > >>plasma. > > > >Ideally, the beam reflects straight back toward a flat drag sail behind the > >ship (and straglers bounce of the inside of the ship tpward the drag sail). > > The beam is then directed forward toward the plasma again, and bounces back > >again. The plasma gets an extra boost forward. Then the ship gets an extra > >push backward. (repeat until beam is lost, absorbed, or canceled out by out > >of phase other parts of beam.) > > I assume that the plasma is replenished all the time. So at the same time > that the plasma is replenished inside the plasma-pipe, there are also coming > reflected photons from the TC side. Doesn't that create a problem? Can't think of any. It actually should help. > >Because you can't build a craft thats engines and structure are so light, > >strong, and powerfull; that they could carry a weight a thousand times > >greater than their own and accelerate it at about 1 G. As a mater of fact > >I'm concerned that a fusion driven ship capable of carrying 40 or 60 times > >its weight is overly optimistic. (But I haven't gotten aroiund to looking up > >the numbers in the Bussard papers.) > > I don't see why you can build a craft of 1E8 kg that can propell itself but > not a craft of 1E11 kg. Just scale up the engines. If that isn't possible, > the initial acceleration should be less, after a while the ship gets lighter > and the acceleration can be increased. Its not the weight, its the mass fraction. You could scale up the craft, but not increase the fraction of its total that is fuel or cargo (well not by much). Given the speeds and time we're talking about, you can't go with a ship with lower accell. > >Also of course if the energy to accelerate the fuel doesn't need to be > >carried in the ship, the ship can get by on less fuel. > > Yes, but that would involve a beaming technique. No, I was talking about my fuel launcher idea, not a beamed power system. > >Fusion could be developed in a decade or so if their was any push for it. > > Possibly power for intersystem space craft might entice someone to invest in > >the R&D money for it. Though your right. Their are no current plans to do > >so. Nor for that matter to build enough of a space infastructure to support > >a project like this. > > How much push did you have in mind? There is already much research going on. > Already a few seconds of "controlled" fusion are possible. Development isn't > possible yet, because not enough is known about the plasma flows that are used. Actually there is very little research going on. Several areas considered more promising than magnetic confinment have no funding due to competition with established programs. In the U.S. each new model car turned out receaves more R&D funding than all of fusion. Given the abundant conventional fuel sources, alternate energy suplies get little interest. > >But, if we had usable space launchers. There is a big > >pent up demand for public and comercial access to space. When that demand > >starts, building up to the space infastructure we'ld need. Think of how fast > >aviation and its infastructure developed between 1915 and 1965. > > You yourself told me that you can't compare past developments so easely with > future developments. --- I beleave I said you should consider dissimilar past developments. > --- But I don't want to hold this against you, I also see > that space will become a bigger and bigger part of the economy. I know that > certain commercial firms (General Motors) are developing small easy to > produce and relative cheap launchers. I don't beleave G.M. has any launcher program? > >Actually NASA played around with the idea on a satellite. A couple public > >groups were trying tyo build and launch a solar sailer in the '80's, but they > >never finished them. > > Wasn't there an experiment with a solarsail last month? Not that I know of. > >If your planing to send yourself to somewhere you can't really live at, and > >can't come back from, its suicide. If you propose sending others there its > >murder; and no western government or major group would be allowed to launch > >such a mission. > > It's just how you want to see it. Confing the crew to 15 years living in a > spaceship is bad enough. Giving them another 15 years may be even worse. > Probably most people would fail the psychological test only for this reason. > Imagine 15 years in the same environment, always busy with the same kind of > job, then finally you find a 10 whole planets to build new things. Would > they really like to go back? Would it really be such a crime to let those > people stay there and try to make a living? Even if it are all rotten > planets (which is doubtful) it probably would be better to be there than to > be in that stinking old spaceship for another 15 years 10 whole planets to build what in? They would have no place to live in other than their ship. No resources to suvive in the ship for more than a few decades (and we have no ability to do better than that). How are they going to survive? What do you mean by having them "stay there and try to make a living"? What is there for them to do that would pay for their keep and supply flights? > If we aren't planning on staying there, why go there? If it's just to > investigate it may be better to send unmanned probes. (That would be > a task for AI) Your expecting a lot out of A.I.s. Humans will probably be more adaptable for some time. Also no one would fund a A.I. exploration flight. Tax payers want to see humans explorer, and lose all interest in programs without human involvement. > >>Lower power levels mean not going to TC! Lower levels mean a much longer > >>trip, and we agreed that wasn't our goal. > > > >Agreed. > > So TC is out? Seems like. > >>Maybe unrepairable, but there will be many of them, so one or two less > >>doesn't matter. The strength of nano is not only their tinyness, but also > >>their vastness (for small price? and weight). The goal will be that they > >>become selfreproducive in a (hopefully) controlled way. > > > >Hopefully. Otherwise we launched a gray goo plague to T.C. ;-) > > > >Eiather way its pretty iffy tech, and doesn't solve the fundemental problems. > > Safety is a fundamental problem. Which they don't help particularly. Thou in our case, unless you can get there at all, mission safty is a moot point. > > Their is a reasonable chance of finding worlds with ecologies as > >complex as Earth and with life forms similar to ours in size, complexity, > >etc... And if you could survive a couple secounds on them outside of a > >biosuit I'ld be stunned! The history of explorers here on this world, and > >our present problems with plagues like Ebola, AIDs, Etc, don't speak well for > >the odds of a carless interstellar explorer. Your microbes, and the planets > >microbes would rapibly try to digest the alien life forms it sees. > > I heard that our genes would probably be so different from independant > developped species that they would mean no harm at all. But if they weren't > we certainly would be able to immunize ourselves. The humane genome project > would be completed by then and we would be able to detect and probably cure > every virus-disease (including AIDS). > The reason for the history of Earth-based explorers is that their genes are > so identical to those of the species in the newly dicovered areas. No, most deseases don't interact with our genetic structure (only viruses do) the rest (molds, bacteria, fungus, etc..) just use us as chemical food or fertalizer. Here we evelved defenses against those deseases, but on an alien ecosphere the counterparts could be radically invulnerable to our defence techneques, and we'ld have no time to evolve new ones. Then again alergies, even to things we've been exposed to for centuries, can kill sometimes us in minuttes. > >True, though I think big platforms harvesting near earth asteroids and comet > >cores would go first. Moon and Mars lack a human healty gravity, and its > >much easier to ship the mined cargo from near earth objects around and much > >richer pickings!! (One estimate places the value of the oil on one average > >near earth comet core at several hundred billion dollars US!) Which is one > >of the reasons I expect space development to progress much faster than > >expected. Free-for-the-taker valuble materials tend to encourage that. ;-) > > Comets are probably not very handy, there are few of them and they have a > peculiar orbit. Asteroids would be easier but probably less rich of organic > material. Do you know why comets have that much oil? Oil means organic > leftovers. And if there is that much of it, that means there is a big chance > of life out in the galaxy. I ment near earth comet cores. Their are a few thousand of them charted, and are easyier to get to than Mars. Technically they don't hold oil, so much as a hydrocarbon sludge. But an oil refinery would process it just the same. > As indeed many suggested once you start living on Mars or Moon, you can't go > back to Earth easely. More precisely the low G would deteriorate your system. Short term you couldn't handel 1 G. Long term you die from cardiovascular, bone, and immune system deterioration. > P.S. Why does your mailer add 2 >'s and a space for replied pieces of text? > It looks a bit messy... Sorry, I thought it was clearer. Is this preferable? Kelly P.S. A, I the only one who remembers to CC Dave Levin on the address list? From popserver Tue Dec 26 18:00:57 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1931" "Tue" "26" "December" "1995" "12:28:20" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "39" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id DAA08324 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 03:27:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA15771 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 26 Dec 1995 12:28:10 +0100 Message-Id: <199512261128.AA15771@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 12:28:20 +0100 ReplyTo : Ric >In system travel should give us a good idea of how well people adapt to >space travel. A few missions of longer and longer duration to near and then >farther planets would help to see the adaptiveness of humans to prolonged >space flight. By the time we sent some folks to Titan and back we could >refine the problem and work on means to sidestep these. Yes, that will give us a preview. But I think you don't have to wait for that: Imagine living and working in your own house, never allowed to open the door and go outside. When looking outside nothing happens, the stars almost don't change. How would you feel? How many people are there that can survive happely and healty in such an environment? Probably an important feature of the spacevessel would be that it feeled much like Earth's environment. This doesn't mean it should look the same, but several things like a leisure room, a bar, a garden of some sort (and maybe a swimming pool) also crew quarters should not be too small. In fact all kinds of things that would make the spaceship bigger and heavier would make living better. So the dilemmas are size and weight versus crew happyness and healthyness. The point is to make a spacevessel that feels like YOUR environment (home, work, shops). >>As indeed many suggested once you start living on Mars or Moon, you can't go >>back to Earth easely. Maybe we should look for a low gravity object (a >>moon), work on the ground and sleep in orbiting space stations with >>artificial Earth-gravity. Or we should build massive spinning buildings that >>create 1g. > >We are going to have to establish a solarsystem based society before we >would be able to convince anyone of the need to go anywhere else. So if we want to continue the SD project we should make it 2140 instead of 2040. Timothy P.S. Who knows the latest guess for the completion of THE spacestation (Freedom or whatever is leftover). From popserver Tue Dec 26 18:01:15 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4051" "Tue" "26" "December" "1995" "11:01:10" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "72" "RE: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: David@InterWorld.com Received: from www (interworld.com [165.254.130.4]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id HAA12024 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 07:56:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by www with Microsoft Mail id <01BAD381.7A7D1690@www>; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 11:01:16 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BAD381.7A87EC00" From: David Levine To: "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" , "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" , "'KellySt@aol.com'" , "rddesign@wolfenet.com" , "RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com" , "stevev@efn.org" To: "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" , "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" Subject: RE: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 11:01:10 -0500 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAD381.7A87EC00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Um, gang, you may have noticed that the LIT site has disappeared. In fact, EVERYTHING at SunSITE is --gone--. They had several major failures and are still trying to figure out what went wrong. So far it seems even the backups are unrecoverable. When they restore what they can, I was thinking about moving it all anyway. I don't know yet what's going to happen. Eventually, what I want to do (if possible... I don't know yet), is bring my Linux machine (a 100mhz pentium) into work, plug it in to the network, and give all you guys some disk space and an account. This way LIT can be a much more collaborative thing. Anyway, if that doesn't happen, I'll still find out a way to get as much back on-line as I can. And I don't know if I've gotten all the "issues" of this version of the newsletter - - but when we're back up, if anyone's been archiving the stuff (I've been keeping what I've been getting), please send it to me. One of my big projects at work has been a very powerful search engine... and guess what huge archive is going to benefit from this search engine.... -- David Levine Application Engineer - InterWorld http://www.interworld.com/staff/david/ He tried to kill me with a forklift... ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAD381.7A87EC00 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhEQAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEFgAMADgAAAMsHDAAaAAsA AQAKAAIAEAEBCYABACEAAABBNTM2NkVGNkJDM0FDRjExQUMwODAwODA1RjE0QTJGMAA3BwEggAMA DgAAAMsHDAAaAAsAAQAQAAIAFgEBCIAHABgAAABJUE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEE gAEAGwAAAFJFOiBFbmdpbmVlcmluZyBOZXdzbGV0dGVyAKkJAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEDkAYAgAYA ABIAAAALACMAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAB4AcAABAAAAFwAAAEVuZ2luZWVy aW5nIE5ld3NsZXR0ZXIAAAIBcQABAAAAGwAAAAG60yQDyPZuNmk6vBHPrAgAgF8UovAAIYJysQAD AAYQYM1+KgMABxC3AwAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAAVU0sR0FORyxZT1VNQVlIQVZFTk9USUNFRFRIQVRU SEVMSVRTSVRFSEFTRElTQVBQRUFSRURJTkZBQ1QsRVZFUllUSElOR0FUU1VOU0lURUlTLS1HT05F LS1USEVZSEFEU0VWRQAAAAADABAQAAAAAAMAERADAAAAAgEJEAEAAADYBAAA1AQAAM0HAABMWkZ1 1ElmjP8ACgEPAhUCqAXrAoMAUALyCQIAY2gKwHNldDI3BgAGwwKDMgPFAgBwckJxEeJzdGVtAoMz 9wLkBxMCgzQDRRM1B20CgzY1A8YUyDYSzA/fZjerEswUyDgRDDEZrn0KgMsIzwnZOx85MTIcYAoy xyERIFoKFDI1NQKACoGDDbELYG5nMTAzFFAXCwoUUQvyYxKgIFVtWCwgZyOhJbB5CGAgCQDAeSAR gHZlIG6Qb3RpYwmAIHQRgIcFQCeAJuBMSVQgAJAXE9AmoQQgZAQAYXBwVmUKwAmALgqFSQOgZgUA 0HQlsEVWRVJZQFRISU5HICehU0h1blMoIEUgBAAgKC0tZwIgZSwwLiC/FkAn4CaSJ2ARsCbQcgdA +wqFAMBqBbEqQAMQCHAHkV8AcCdgKVEoQCcgbAMgdFRyeQuAZydwbyowaVpnLvEgCGAFQHcnknef CfAxUQNgI7AssVNvCoX/KkAFwChgLWET4AQgLYEDoMUn0mIA0Gt1cC8hL5FfK5AfQAWgLZICYGUs sVf/J+A0IyaQLwEwkB9ACoUxc+02k2MAcCWwSTFgKLEngL0LgGswUgGgMTIEYHYwUq8zYQdAAyAA cHk40HkssVU4sGQCICcFQGsnAHftCoV5EcAxYycEICxQMFUrEYApIW4ssUU0AXR1/TqheSWwMXM4 sjHhMJE7kEQgKAaQIHBvBBBp3zXiQRAppjuJPJIpJbAsAVZiBRAwYW0mkEwLgHUeeCZhEXALgCbg KGEgYSPQMG1oekCAMdFpuHVtKSvwAjAypncFsPZrJbALUHU6UwuAMIIn0s0scHRGZC9CZ2km0Tqi fyYyMOATsChAA3Am4Cjha/8oQAqwJ0AKhS9DA6AA0AWg/SuQdCyzLAE7ESgDOGE0cPtI4SZgdRFw OfEvkR6xC2B/BuAtsCcgJtE5EjJQCoVB/zrzQsFAcCeDO5AHkDuyPeT9OJEnL/EvxDDAL1ExMkSQ +0ySMJFnPLEosU2iCoU0gvExIG4tbERCKLE4sDhh/ymWT4cnYEG7QGFR8CbRLFBvAkA0ETqiJ9Ii BAEKUHP+IjEgUIIsAS2RAJACIFokczdGLHB3czXwWNEFwC3dXKFiMUM0ETHAJy+RVON/NMBQUzrh LGE9IU1QWPJy30QhOiIKhSfSE8B1DdBAQOtYY18zawngcDBSPzRhR/9TwScgI7BCsQtQKUARsC1h Py9RKGBgFjCgB4AssSBPd0RRWjFDcWIw0ECAA2Bq/QWQdC8hMVFGcSiTXzRaoscmkECQMcByZnUt 1hGw/1+CM+AjsERBQRFIZFnhTHH9J5JoRuBI4V+TJuAsAT1X/01QLHAwwGS2A1JaVGmuVj3zCvRV YDM2DfAkf3AsC1X9GMIxGMAlUHFBA2AT0Cpg/ywhC0Ya0nQDAFAAoHR2cod/C2QVYQvwErB0Mgww dHZE9SbAaSdgTC2AREFPhikg71VgOGAnIFsBRWojXIMqEOVccVcFsGxkdu9393R2gmgCQHA6Ly93 fvBeLkWxBJBGYXxALgWgbUovE8BhDdAvZHkyL9983wBQdm98/3ZISE8BCIH/J2EwoDlQL/FJ8QPw J4BNcf8CEEaAVWABgEEYC0YcYXPwFxrQgh0eYQCJwEAAOQDQjwRgq9O6AQIBRwABAAAANQAAAGM9 VVM7YT0gO3A9SW50ZXJXb3JsZDtsPVByaXZhdGUgTURCLTk1MTIyNjE2MDExMVotNDAAAAAAQAAH MHAtA2Cr07oBQAAIMGCKYmOr07oBHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAAACARQ0AQAAABAAAABUlKHA KX8QG6WHCAArKiUXTAc= ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAD381.7A87EC00-- From popserver Tue Dec 26 18:01:25 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["8463" "Tue" "26" "December" "1995" "17:55:01" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "192" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id IAA13361 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 08:54:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA20859 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 26 Dec 1995 17:54:55 +0100 Message-Id: <199512261654.AA20859@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 17:55:01 +0100 Timothy re : Kelly Subject : Plasma mirror >Reasonably flat, and optically flat are very different! Optically focused >over light-years is even more different. OK, I give up... I hoped that this this unflatness would not be too big. But If you can't make a mirror that is flat enough than you can't make a curved mirror that is curved enough. So a curved mirror would spread the light just as much as a flat mirror. So this means that ANY mirror that works over a larger distance is out of the question! >Again, you can't use a 2 part retro mirror since the drag mirror on the ship >has to be much smaller. No, because the two parts of the retro-mirror could have been place further apart (but makes the construction not easier). Beam that missed the mirror || || / || \ A / || \ B Two mirrors A and B at a perpendicular angle /__________________\ but at some distance from each other /|____________________|\ / || || || \ || || || || || || || /\ /\ \/ Beams from Earth Beam to Earth _______ XX XX XX The Asimov The mirrors are connected in some rigid way! >>I assume that the plasma is replenished all the time. So at the same time >>that the plasma is replenished inside the plasma-pipe, there are also coming >>reflected photons from the TC side. Doesn't that create a problem? > >Can't think of any. It actually should help. After rethinking it, I see what you mean. The only thing I'm not sure about is what the physics of plasma reflection are. We may reflect radio-waves to the ionosphere everyday but how does it work? And does it work in the Asimov also? I don't know how big the plasma-tube is going to be but at certain radiation-densities materials get blown up, so you don't even need to ionize the molecules yourself to create a plasma. >Its not the weight, its the mass fraction. You could scale up the craft, but >not increase the fraction of its total that is fuel or cargo (well not by >much). Given the speeds and time we're talking about, you can't go with a >ship with lower accell. Yes, I understood that. But do the engines take the most of the weight? Or in other words, what percentage of the ship (without fuel) is reserved for the engine? If that percentage is small it may be possible to scale up the engines a bit. But indeed there is a limit, only where is that limit? Ideally the weight of the engine grows slower than its power: Make an engine twice as big doubles the power, but the weight increases with the squareroot of 2. > > >Also of course if the energy to accelerate the fuel doesn't need to be > > >carried in the ship, the ship can get by on less fuel. > > > > Yes, but that would involve a beaming technique. > >No, I was talking about my fuel launcher idea, not a beamed power system. Probably launching is even more difficult than beaming. >>How much push did you have in mind? There is already much research going on. >>Already a few seconds of "controlled" fusion are possible. Development isn't >>possible yet, because not enough is known about the plasma flows that are >>used. > >Actually there is very little research going on. Several areas considered >more promising than magnetic confinment have no funding due to competition >with established programs. In the U.S. each new model car turned out >receaves more R&D funding than all of fusion. Given the abundant conventional >fuel sources, alternate energy suplies get little interest. Here in the Europe (also in the Netherlands) there are several institutes busy. Most of the research is in a very early stage. Spending more money may help a bit but not that much as you would hope. Some things just can't go any faster. Besides that, it is not fair to assume that money alone can change research that fast, otherwise antimatter may become a possibility too. >I don't beleave G.M. has any launcher program? You're right, after some research and your forwarded letter, I figured it was the X-33 that I had in mind, and GM should be Lockheed Martin Skunk Works, McDonnell Douglas Aerospace and Rockwell International Corp. >>Wasn't there an experiment with a solarsail last month? > >Not that I know of. I will try finding some info, if I know more I'll let you know. >10 whole planets to build what in? They would have no place to live in other >than their ship. No resources to suvive in the ship for more than a few >decades (and we have no ability to do better than that). How are they going >to survive? What do you mean by having them "stay there and try to make a >living"? What is there for them to do that would pay for their keep and >supply flights? My guess was that they would construct a pre-fab habitat and from there they would expand. Being on a planet gives you much more resources and savety than a spaceship. Not all planets will be equal favourable, but a solid planet the size of Earth will be better than a spaceship after the main habitats are equipped. > > If we aren't planning on staying there, why go there? If it's just to > > investigate it may be better to send unmanned probes. (That would be > > a task for AI) > >Your expecting a lot out of A.I.s. Humans will probably be more adaptable >for some time. Also no one would fund a A.I. exploration flight. Tax payers >want to see humans explorer, and lose all interest in programs without human >involvement. To see? There won't be a live television show with interactive conversations. By the time Earth gets the first message of landing, the crew is already on their way back. Also would you pay money now to see a spectacular show that happens in 30 years? And indeed I am expecting a lot of AI, humans may be more adaptable for a while, but have lots of limitations that "machines" don't have. >> So TC is out? > >Seems like. So where to and when is our new goal? Until now only fusion may bring us out of the solar system within reasonable time. Even if you use a beam, the fusion is necessary to maintain the beam. >No, most deseases don't interact with our genetic structure (only viruses do) >the rest (molds, bacteria, fungus, etc..) just use us as chemical food or >fertalizer. Here we evelved defenses against those deseases, but on an alien >ecosphere the counterparts could be radically invulnerable to our defence >techneques, and we'ld have no time to evolve new ones. > >Then again alergies, even to things we've been exposed to for centuries, can >kill sometimes us in minuttes. Is there any hope for us? Our best hope was to find a living planet, full of life and oxigen. Now it seems that it is better to find a barren planet with no life at all. Do we indeed have not enough time to develop a anti-bodies against these diseases? We indeed should be very careful, but that doesn't mean that after we have found most anti-bodies we can live there. >I ment near earth comet cores. Their are a few thousand of them charted, and >are easyier to get to than Mars. Comet cores? I'm not sure anymore what you mean, what kind of orbit do they have? Elliptical or (near) circular? And do they turn around the Sun or the Earth? How big are they? >More precisely the low G would deteriorate your system. Short term you >couldn't handel 1 G. Long term you die from cardiovascular, bone, and immune >system deterioration. Oh, I didn't know that it was that serious. But I assume we can adapt to a thirth of Earth's gravity or is that still to little? >Sorry, I thought it was clearer. Is this preferable? Unfortunately not, the problem was not the double > but the three (>> ) characters added, that makes that all lines are broken off and one word is shown on the next line. If the you add only one > (no spaces) this word-wrap happens less often. Probably Steve has "trouble" with everyone because he use lines of 60 characters or so. >P.S. >A, I the only one who remembers to CC Dave Levin on the address list? I've never received a (personal) notice from Dave, he just left me (us?) in the dark and I always had to hear from some others that they had made contact with him. The least he could have done was send a (general) note telling he had no time for the SD-project anymore. In fact the only message I got from him was the one of December 17th. So in short, I'm a disappointed by Dave's performance. Timothy From popserver Tue Dec 26 18:01:31 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1785" "Tue" "26" "December" "1995" "11:09:19" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "26" "possible LIT site." "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "possible LIT site." nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id JAA13724 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 09:09:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Tue, 26 Dec 95 11:09:20 -0600 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: David Levine cc: "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" , "'KellySt@aol.com'" , "rddesign@wolfenet.com" , "RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com" , "stevev@efn.org" , "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" , "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" Subject: possible LIT site. Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 11:09:19 -0600 (CST) Ok, I have 10 Meg of Web space, I don't have a forms capability yet, but I imagine that if I had a legitamate reason for needing it, then it would be granted (and maybe some more disk space to boot.) let me know if This would work, so I can get started on the begging asa soon as possible. If you want, you can get everything but the forms stuff right now, my only limit is 10 megs. Perhaps now would be the time to talk about paying our way. I would be willing to part with $20.00 (US) per year to see this continue. (of course getting the web space for free is better, but if we are paying our own way, then we'd have the right to expect it to be up, or complain if it was not) I am just throwing the $20 figure out as my personal resistance point. beyond that, i don't think i could afford it. I'm just a poor college student! ideally, the webspace cost should be split as many ways as we can, and those who contribute get nothing more than name recognition (and maybe the right to put a link on the LIT web page -- Hmm.... Kinda like advertising. no, scratch that. A lot like advertising) maybe we could approach various aerospace companies and get them to help defray the cost, they could then put links to their web pages. A few tens of megabytes of webspace shoud not be that expensive, I've seen quotes in various magazines from $30 (US) for 10 MB on up. I would think that for as little as $100 a year, we could have a very nice website with lots and lots of room. Counting heads that i see here often, (no pressure, I'm just thinking out loud) me, Dave, Kelly, Ric, Timothy, Steve. That's 6 people who contribute regularly, would bring the price down to $16.67 each. the more people who help, the less each of us would have to pay. From popserver Tue Dec 26 18:01:33 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2139" "Tue" "26" "December" "1995" "12:18:04" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "43" "RE: possible LIT site." "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "possible LIT site." nil nil] nil) Return-Path: David@InterWorld.com Received: from www (interworld.com [165.254.130.4]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id JAA13822 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 09:13:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by www with Microsoft Mail id <01BAD38C.376EA430@www>; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 12:18:08 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BAD38C.3774BEB0" From: David Levine To: "'Kevin C Houston'" Cc: "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" , "'KellySt@aol.com'" , "rddesign@wolfenet.com" , "RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com" , "stevev@efn.org" , "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" Cc: "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" Subject: RE: possible LIT site. Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 12:18:04 -0500 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAD38C.3774BEB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It definitely sounds like an interesting possibility, but let me see if I= can get something set up at work first. Free is always better. -- David Levine Application Engineer - InterWorld http://www.interworld.com/staff/david/ He tried to kill me with a forklift... ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAD38C.3774BEB0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IgkRAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEFgAMADgAAAMsHDAAaAAwA EgAEAAIAHAEBCYABACEAAABCRTM2NkVGNkJDM0FDRjExQUMwODAwODA1RjE0QTJGMABIBwEggAMA DgAAAMsHDAAaAAwAEgAIAAIAIAEBCIAHABgAAABJUE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEE gAEAFwAAAFJFOiBwb3NzaWJsZSBMSVQgc2l0ZS4AXgcBDYAEAAIAAAACAAIAAQOQBgCwAwAAEgAA AAsAIwAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAMANgAAAAAAHgBwAAEAAAATAAAAcG9zc2libGUgTElU IHNpdGUuAAACAXEAAQAAABsAAAAButO1g1n2bja9OrwRz6wIAIBfFKLwAAAN/PIAAwAGELCrzsYD AAcQ2QAAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAElUREVGSU5JVEVMWVNPVU5EU0xJS0VBTklOVEVSRVNUSU5HUE9T U0lCSUxJVFksQlVUTEVUTUVTRUVJRklDQU5HRVRTT01FVEhJTkdTRVRVUEFUV09SS0ZJUlNURlJF RUlTQUwAAAAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAwAAAAIBCRABAAAACwIAAAcCAACyAwAATFpGdSZ+SeD/AAoB DwIVAqgF6wKDAFAC8gkCAGNoCsBzZXQyNwYABsMCgzIDxQIAcHJCcRHic3RlbQKDM/cC5AcTAoM0 A0UTNQdtAoM2NQPGFMg2EswP32Y3qxLMFMg4EQwxGa59CoDLCM8J2TsfOTEyHGAKMschESBaChQy NTUCgAqBgw2xC2BuZzEwMxRQlwsKFFEL8mMSoCBJBUALDbELgGkT0Gx5IHMJCGBuZAQgbGlrZX4g A5ELgBPQH0ATwAuAZ8ggcG8EEGliAxAmEKB5LCBidQVAbBHAXiAHgCZgCeAnUGYlgCB6YwORZxHA CoUmcAeAdMZoJ+IRsSB1cCcgBUAydwWwayAl4BGgdC54ICBGCdEnUAQgB0B33mETsCjgEcAngS4K iybg7DM2DfAkfyAKjwuRGMK+MRjAJVAvkQNgE9BjBUD8LS0LRhrSMlMAUACgMsb/MNcLZBVhC/AS sDKCDDAyxgBEYXZpZCBMZUk3kG5lMNVBcAtQaecqMCfQAiAgRSOwOAEEkJczMCWAJ3JXBbBsZDU/ CzZHMsZoAkBwOi8vunc9QC4nYyxROpAuBaCUbS8TwGEN0C9kN4K+LzsvAFA0vztPNJhIJxCGdAiB N7B0byBrAxD/AyApcQPwK1AnICyQLGEm4P0BgC5FUEDtHGEyQBrQQG0FHmEASBAAQAA5AHAj7x22 07oBAgFHAAEAAAA1AAAAYz1VUzthPSA7cD1JbnRlcldvcmxkO2w9UHJpdmF0ZSBNREItOTUxMjI2 MTcxODA0Wi00MQAAAABAAAcw8MHtHbbTugFAAAgwMOBKILbTugEeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAA AAIBFDQBAAAAEAAAAFSUocApfxAbpYcIACsqJRcXAA== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAD38C.3774BEB0-- From popserver Tue Dec 26 19:12:25 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5384" "Tue" "26" "December" "1995" "13:06:58" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "99" "RE: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id LAA17932 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 11:06:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Tue, 26 Dec 95 13:06:59 -0600 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: David Levine cc: "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" , "'KellySt@aol.com'" , "rddesign@wolfenet.com" , "RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com" , "stevev@efn.org" , "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" , "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" Subject: RE: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 13:06:58 -0600 (CST) To: All Re: various. Bio interaction between earth and E.T. organisms. first, I believe that any viral infection is not possible, due to the totally arbitrary rna to protien coding system that earth biology uses. Of course all this assumes that the ET biology uses DNA/RNA Glucose ATP systems, but i do have sound Therodynamic/chemical reasons for thinking this is the case. bacteria/fungi on the other hand may pose a serious threat suposing that our systems are even remotely similar, I think it will come down to how long that particular ecosystem has been evolving. if it has been a hort while, then i think that or immune responeses will likely have seen a particular attack statagy before, and will know what to do. if the ET biology has been around longer than us, then I suspect that we will be more vulnerable. however, many earthly bacteria exploit specific weaknesses in our defenses in order to enter our systems. Alien bacteria would not be designed for this. Also, our immune system would probably go into hyperdrive if it was presented with a truely alien protein. I believe that Kelly is right when he identifies allergic reactions as one of the main health problems to be faced. This doesn't even consider what a nasty little fungus like yeast (deposited on the ground the first time you tried to spit out the foul smelling pollen that was making your throat squeeze shut) would do to an alien ecosytem. you might think it's kinda cute the way they take sugar and make alcohol, but I'll bet that just about every other biosystem we ever encounter will think that it's a vile poison. and won't have any idea that making penicillin would get rid of it. this is not to say that a alien ecosystem would be totally useless to us. who know what wonders we may find. how bout an organism that can "grow" silicon chips? of solar cells? perhaps some organism lives in a metal rich environment and can really concentrate metal ores. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. I could go on all day, how bout a critter that _likes_ 70 % ethanol (I'll bet that many companies would love to make brandy without having to distill) bacteria that excrete oil, or plastic, or ones that prefer it as a food source. the list goes on and on, and I'm very willing to bet that none of these creatures will be the first exploitable alien lifeform. and I'd further bet that the universe is not only stranger than I imagined, it's stranger than i _can_ imagine. In short, A totally barren 1 G planent would be ideal for colonization, but totally boring for study. To: all Re: mission Ok, I think we all have come slam up against a brick wall. Sending 1 E+09 Kg _any_ distance and coming back to rest WRT the target system is turning into a Herculean task. The charter says that we have remote sensing clues of a biosphere. we also have a public mandate for sending some people there to study it. I think perhaps it's time to either put the "Asimov" on a diet, or approach the problem from the other end. To put the "Asimov" on a diet, I'd suggest at least a thousand fold reduction in payload down to 1E+05 Kg I think this rules out self sustained mission, and requires a return. I still think we can go at 1 G, and use a MARS for the engine, but in order to over come the photon thrust, we're going to have to bring more reaction mass ( and use a slower exhaust velocity). for the return trip, I'd suggest scrapping the lineac entirely, and relying on photonic thrust for both portions of the trip. this means that some payload capacity will have to be devoted to maser transmitter control packages, but i don't see this as a real problem. the crew should be pared down to no more than 100 people, and the return module can totaly scrap the hab ring which can then be left in the target system as a stepping stone for a follow up crew if one is deemed desirable I'll follow this up with some hard numbers later,But, one thing that strikes me off hand is this, for reflection, p= 2E/C this is great for acelerating. for absorbtion, p=E/C this is a smaller amount of photonic thrust to overcome. so for example, a energy beam that provides 10 m/s^2 acceleration via light pressure only needs a 15 m/s^s deceleration from the engines to equal 10 m/s^2 total. and if it takes a 1000 to 1 RM to payload ratio, then that is the cost. and we just have to live with it. but once you get 100 people and a number of maser arrays in orbit around another star system, then sending a follow up mission is relatively easy the second option is to design this mission as if we had _no_ long range information on nearby systems, and design a small ~ 5000 Kg robot. to explore nearby systems, and return pictures and other information about every system in a 20 ly. radius. we might not have to slow down entirely, a .5 C flyby might work here. and perhaps a magnetic turning might work for some long range steering. The robots should be small and low-cost, so that is we lose a few, it's no biggie. then to luanch, we could use a particle luancher, (just like a solar sail, but you use charged particles and a heavier acceleration factor) and once the probes are up to speed, we don't bother with them again. well, my connection is getting slow, so I'll send this and wait til I get home to send the rest. Kevin From popserver Tue Dec 26 23:17:42 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["290" "Tue" "26" "December" "1995" "18:13:43" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "6" "Re: RE: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.12]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id PAA28137 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 15:13:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA05198; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 18:13:43 -0500 Message-ID: <951226181342_79266998@emout04.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, stevev@efn.org, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: RE: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 18:13:43 -0500 Sunsite lost the archives TOO!!? You've got to be kidding? I was woundering what happend. One day I signed on to use some of the software, and the next day it said it could find LIT. I hope you have a lot of back ups? I think I have about all of the newsletters, if that helps. Kelly From popserver Tue Dec 26 23:17:43 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["15625" "Tue" "26" "December" "1995" "18:13:34" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "313" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id PAA28198 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 15:14:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA07175; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 18:13:34 -0500 Message-ID: <951226181334_79266919@mail02.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 18:13:34 -0500 Kelly Re Timothy >> Timothy re : Kelly >>Subject : Plasma mirror >> >>>Reasonably flat, and optically flat are very different! Optically focused >>>over light-years is even more different. >> >>OK, I give up... I hoped that this this unflatness would not be too big. >>But If you can't make a mirror that is flat enough than you can't make a >>curved mirror that is curved enough. So a curved mirror would spread >>the light just as much as a flat mirror. So this means that ANY mirror >>that works over a larger distance is out of the question! Seems unavoidable. >>>>I assume that the plasma is replenished all the time. So at the same time >>>>that the plasma is replenished inside the plasma-pipe, there are also coming >>>>reflected photons from the TC side. Doesn't that create a problem? >>> >>>Can't think of any. It actually should help. >> >>After rethinking it, I see what you mean. >>The only thing I'm not sure about is what the physics of plasma reflection >>are. We may reflect radio-waves to the ionosphere everyday but how does it >>work? And does it work in the Asimov also? It would certainly involve a much larger scale, and I don't know what the reflection efficency is. Or how much mass would need to be ionized to keep up the reflection. One thing for certain, the stuff will be HOT! >>>Its not the weight, its the mass fraction. You could scale up the craft, but >>>not increase the fraction of its total that is fuel or cargo (well not by >>>much). Given the speeds and time we're talking about, you can't go with a >>>ship with lower accell. >> >>Yes, I understood that. But do the engines take the most of the weight? Or >>in other words, what percentage of the ship (without fuel) is reserved for >>the engine? If that percentage is small it may be possible to scale up the >>engines a bit. But indeed there is a limit, only where is that limit? >>Ideally the weight of the engine grows slower than its power: Make an engine >>twice as big doubles the power, but the weight increases with the squareroot >>of 2. Hard to say. The best engines Iever heard of were liquid fueld rocket engines. The engines can produce thrust over a hundred times their own weight. The Bussard fusion/electrics produce about 6 times their weight. But scaled up and eliminatring the weight of the vacume chamber might make it up to the 10's to 1 ration? (I hope.) >>>>How much push did you have in mind? There is already much research >>>>going on. Already a few seconds of "controlled" fusion are possible. >>>>Development isn't possible yet, because not enough is known about the >>>>plasma flows that are used. >>> >>>Actually there is very little research going on. Several areas >>>considered more promising than magnetic confinment have no funding >>>due to competitionwith established programs. In the U.S. each new >>>model car turned out receaves more R&D funding than all of fusion. >>>Given the abundant conventional fuel sources, alternate energy suplies >>>get little interest. >> >>Here in the Europe (also in the Netherlands) there are several institutes >>busy. Most of the research is in a very early stage. Spending more money >>may help a bit but not that much as you would hope. Some things just >>can't go any faster. Besides that, it is not fair to assume that money >>alone can change research that fast, otherwise antimatter may become >>a possibility too. That would be true if all major areas of research were being investigated and resonably well funded. But most areas of fusion research that I know of have no funding. Magnetic plasma fusion is geting funded, but at least in the US the systems are dead ends. Even if they worked they'ld be useless (to large to be intergrated into the power grid.). Where as more inovative designs that are considered more promising (like Bussards among others) are geting no funding. >>>I don't beleave G.M. has any launcher program? >> >>You're right, after some research and your forwarded letter, I figured it >>was the X-33 that I had in mind, and GM should be Lockheed Martin Skunk >>Works, McDonnell Douglas Aerospace and Rockwell International Corp. Oh yeah, the single stage to orbit program (SSTO). My excorperation, and the NASA department I used to work at in NASA headquarters were working on that program. Increadable potential. It could cut costs to orbit by a factor of 100! Fed Ex is even rumored to be seriously interested in using them for suborbital intercontenental mail carriers. >>>10 whole planets to build what in? They would have no place to live in >>>other than their ship. No resources to suvive in the ship for more than >>>a few decades (and we have no ability to do better than that). How are >>>they going to survive? What do you mean by having them "stay there >>>and try to make a living"? What is there for them to do that would pay >>>for their keep and supply flights? >> >>My guess was that they would construct a pre-fab habitat and from >>there they would expand. Being on a planet gives you much more >>resources and savety than a spaceship. Not all planets will be equal >>favourable, but a solid planet the size of Earth will be better than a >>spaceship after the main habitats are equipped. I'ld debate that. Since your stuck in an artificial habitat anyway, one in space has easy access to all the floating ores and raw materials in the solar system. Much of which would be hard to get at on a planet (ever see a strip mine) and much harder to transport. I'm a firm beleaver that heavy industry will largely move off earth in a century or two. If your already off planet and in a starship, trying to set up on a planet would be hellish. >>> > If we aren't planning on staying there, why go there? If it's just to >>> > investigate it may be better to send unmanned probes. (That would >>> > be a task for AI) >>> >>>Your expecting a lot out of A.I.s. Humans will probably be more >>>adaptable for some time. Also no one would fund a A.I. exploration >>>flight. Tax payers want to see humans explorer, and lose all interest >>>in programs without human involvement. >> >>To see? There won't be a live television show with interactive >>conversations. By the time Earth gets the first message of landing, the >>crew is already on their way back. Also would you pay money now to see >>a spectacular show that happens in 30 years? People won't see it right away, but they will know people are out there. I think that would be enough to get public interest. I know public interest in robot probes is near nill. As NASA constantly found. Robots were thought of as scout craft for maned expiditions. If no manned folowups were planed (and frequently mentioned) public interest in funding the robots droped way off. Generally a so what atitude. Drove the Robot probe teams CRAZY! >>>> So TC is out? >>> >>>Seems like. >> >>So where to and when is our new goal? Until now only fusion may bring >>us out of the solar system within reasonable time. Even if you use a >>beam, the fusion is necessary to maintain the beam. Well you could power the beam with big solar electric power platforms in space. (The kind of stuff the L-5 socyety kept proposing to power earth.) >>>No, most deseases don't interact with our genetic structure (only viruses do) >>>the rest (molds, bacteria, fungus, etc..) just use us as chemical food or >>>fertalizer. Here we evelved defenses against those deseases, but on an >>>alien ecosphere the counterparts could be radically invulnerable to our >>>defence techneques, and we'ld have no time to evolve new ones. >>> >>>Then again alergies, even to things we've been exposed to for >>>centuries, can kill sometimes us in minuttes. >> >>Is there any hope for us? Our best hope was to find a living planet, full >>of life and oxigen. Now it seems that it is better to find a barren planet >>with no life at all. I would definatly prefer a dead world as a possible colony site over a lush one like earth. Wouldn't be as interesting to study, but much more survivable. The problem is any world that could support us, probably has life. >>Do we indeed have not enough time to develop a anti-bodies against >> these diseases? We indeed should be very careful, but that doesn't >> mean that after we have found most anti-bodies we can live there. Hell, we're still trying to find cures for all the plagues on earth. So far our best luck seem to be in destroying the worst sections of the ecology (draining wetlands, fogging everything with pestasides, etc..) and building urban semi-ecologies. Most of the habited areas of the developed world (europe, North America, etc..) do this so routinely we don't even notice anymore. But then living in a coutry thats largly under sea level I hardly have to tell you. ;) >>>I ment near earth comet cores. Their are a few thousand of them >>>charted, and are easyier to get to than Mars. >> >>Comet cores? I'm not sure anymore what you mean, what kind of orbit >>do they have? Elliptical or (near) circular? And do they turn around the >>Sun or the Earth? How big are they? Near earth in that the inner part of their orbit come in near to earths orbit, or farther in than it. The outer orbits are generally farther in then jupiter. Somethimes closer in than Mars. After bein in that close for a while. Most of the light volitals melt away, and the outer surface gets covered over by rock. That crust helps shield the reset from sunlight. Compasition is estimated (by weight) at 1/3rd water ice, 1/3rd rock and metalic ores, 1/3rd hydrocarbon sludge (thick cride oil). Size varies. 5 kilometer across ones are fairly common. (Weight 50 billion metric tons.) Estimates are about that there are a few thousand about that size in near earth space. Possibly more asteroids. (It surprising we don't get more impacts!) >>>More precisely the low G would deteriorate your system. Short term >>>you couldn't handel 1 G. Long term you die from cardiovascular, bone, >>>and immune system deterioration. >> >>Oh, I didn't know that it was that serious. But I assume we can adapt to >>a thirth of Earth's gravity or is that still to little? No one really knows. Its assumed you'ld have the same problems, just slower acting. >>>P.S. >>>A, I the only one who remembers to CC Dave Levin on the address list? >> >>I've never received a (personal) notice from Dave, he just left me (us?) >>in the dark and I always had to hear from some others that they had >>made contact with him. The least he could have done was send a >>(general) note telling he had no time for the SD-project anymore. >>In fact the only message I got from him was the one of December 17th. >>So in short, I'm a disappointed by Dave's performance. You have a point. Certainly droping the Newsletter functions off line for .. what is it 2-3 months now? Doesn't speak well for his enthusiasm. Then again the participation has been kind of slight in general lately. Kelly RE Kevin >>To: All >>Re: various. >> >>Bio interaction between earth and E.T. organisms. >> >>first, I believe that any viral infection is not possible, due to the >>totally arbitrary rna to protien coding system that earth biology uses. >> >>Of course all this assumes that the ET biology uses DNA/RNA Glucose >>ATP systems, but i do have sound Therodynamic/chemical reasons for >>thinking this is the -=--- Big snip ----- >> >>In short, A totally barren 1 G planent would be ideal for colonization, >>but totally boring for study. I agree. Its a topic that doesn't get talked about much, but the idea of steping out of a ship on an alien world taking a breath is really shallow. I guess we're all just used to decontaminated parks, or advanced medicines, or something. On the other hand a real alien ecology could be fantastically interesting! >>To: all >>Re: mission >> >>Ok, I think we all have come slam up against a brick wall. Sending >>1 E+09 Kg _any_ distance and coming back to rest WRT the target >>system is turning into a Herculean task. >> >>The charter says that we have remote sensing clues of a biosphere. we >>also have a public mandate for sending some people there to study it. >> >>I think perhaps it's time to either put the "Asimov" on a diet, or >>approach the problem from the other end. To put the "Asimov" on a diet, >>I'd suggest at least a thousand fold reduction in payload down to >> 1E+05 Kg I think we're more stuck than that. We haven't figured out any idea for slowing down a sail or MARS driven ship from relativistic speeds. NOt just not doing it on that scale. We haven't a handel on how to do it at all! >>I think this rules out self sustained mission, and requires a return. I >>still think we can go at 1 G, and use a MARS for the engine, but in order >>to over come the photon thrust, we're going to have to bring more >>reaction mass ( and use a slower exhaust velocity). for the return trip, >>I'd suggest scrapping the lineac entirely, and relying on photonic thrust >>for both portions of the trip. this means that some payload capacity >>will have to be devoted to maser transmitter control packages, but i >>don't see this as a real problem. the crew should be pared down to no >>more than 100 people, and the return module can totaly scrap the hab ring >>which can then be left in the target system as a stepping stone for a >>follow up crew if one is deemed desirable >>I'll follow this up with some hard numbers later,But, one thing that >>strikes me off hand is this, for reflection, p= 2E/C this is great for >>acelerating. for absorbtion, p=E/C this is a smaller amount of photonic >>thrust to overcome. so for example, a energy beam that provides 10 m/s^2 >>acceleration via light pressure only needs a 15 m/s^s deceleration from >>the engines to equal 10 m/s^2 total. and if it takes a 1000 to 1 RM to >>payload ratio, then that is the cost. and we just have to live with it. >>but once you get 100 people and a number of maser arrays in orbit around >>another star system, then sending a follow up mission is relatively easy How do you get a 1000 - 1 mass ration ship to move? Can we scale down the ship that much? We need the hab centrafuge to keep the crew alive and healthy, and that dictates about a 200 meter diameter ring. Fiting that and the systems and sypplies all in 1E+5 kg seems unlikely. (Thats the weight of the shutle orbiter. Or did you mean 1E+5 tons?) Adding in the construction equipment fort big maser arrays makes it even harder. >>the second option is to design this mission as if we had _no_ long range >>information on nearby systems, and design a small ~ 5000 Kg robot. to >>explore nearby systems, and return pictures and other information about >>every system in a 20 ly. radius. we might not have to slow down entirely, >>a .5 C flyby might work here. and perhaps a magnetic turning might >>work for some long range steering. The robots should be small and >>low-cost, so that is we lose a few, it's no biggie. then to luanch, we >>could use a particle luancher, (just like a solar sail, but you use >>charged particles and a heavier acceleration factor) and once the probes >>are up to speed, we don't bother with them again. It would seem you could get about as much info from a large teklescope array in Sol orbit, and get results now! From popserver Tue Dec 26 23:33:08 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["8492" "Tue" "26" "December" "1995" "18:34:02" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "157" "RE: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: David@InterWorld.com Received: from www (interworld.com [165.254.130.4]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id PAA28979 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 15:29:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by www with Microsoft Mail id <01BAD3C0.BFD26C10@www>; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 18:34:11 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BAD3C0.BFE334F0" From: David Levine To: "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" , "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" , "'KellySt@aol.com'" , "rddesign@wolfenet.com" , "RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com" , "stevev@efn.org" To: "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" , "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" Subject: RE: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 18:34:02 -0500 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAD3C0.BFE334F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >>>P.S. > >>>A, I the only one who remembers to CC Dave Levin on the address=20 >list? > >> > >>I've never received a (personal) notice from Dave, he just left me (u= s?)=20 > >>in the dark and I always had to hear from some others that they had=20 > >>made contact with him. The least he could have done was send a=20 > >>(general) note telling he had no time for the SD-project anymore. > >>In fact the only message I got from him was the one of December=20 >17th. > >>So in short, I'm a disappointed by Dave's performance. > > >You have a point. Certainly droping the Newsletter functions off line fo= r .. >what is it 2-3 months now? Doesn't speak well for his enthusiasm. Then= >again the participation has been kind of slight in general lately. Hmmm... Well, this is interesting, considering I thought I --have-- been keeping everyone up to date by occassionally sending out messages CCed to everyone on this private list. Of course, I only occassionally get these messages, and then only from Kelly (and sometimes Kevin). In fact, as I said earlier today, SunSITE is having some major malfunctio= ns. In the meantime, for the last month or two, I've been working at home on getting together a system whereby LIT would have it's own computer, and people here would get disk space, email accounts, etc. at LIT. If you are reading this message, please check my CC's and TO line - - if there's someone I've left out, it's because I haven't been included on any of their CC's... can someone forward my messages to them? It's interesting to note that I've been administrating four other web sites... one of them, ArchaeoSETI, has also recently been "disappointed" in my "performance". I would like everyone to remember that we are ALL volunteers in this endeavor... this includes me. LIT was meant from the first to be an entirely web-based campus. To be honest, I've never liked the idea of an email newsletter, and would have preferred some kind of web-based discussion system (and one a little more stable than the one I had originally written). However, since everyone seemed to think that email newsletters were the way to go, I've tried to keep up as best I could. All of the newsletters you have EVER received from LIT have been processed ONE AT A TIME by me with a simple filter... I couldn't even get ".forward" to work on SunSITE, so I had to feed each email into the filter program myself. Let me tell you, this is a bunch of work. Anyway, I have never ever intended to drop LIT, and I promise you I am working in almost all of my free time to rebuild LIT into what I've always wanted it to be. One of the ideas of LIT was that it would grow. I wanted it to be big. In this case, it was to have several people helping me run such things as classes and discussions. I can't do everything. When LIT returns, I will still need help. One of the things I'd like to do ASAP is find a charitable listserv that could perhaps support the discussion list. I have no idea where to start doing this. Does anyone have any ideas? RE: the last message from me being on Dec. 17th. Does anyone realize that it's the 26th today? In my book, nine days since my last message (and actually I sent something this very morning) is not exactly a very long time. Hell, the newsletters from LIT used to come out once a week, and were usually late at that. Is 9 days really an eternity all of the sudden? There is lots more I'd like to say, but I'll let it lie for now. -- David Levine Application Engineer - InterWorld http://www.interworld.com/staff/david/ He tried to kill me with a forklift... ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAD3C0.BFE334F0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IgwXAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEFgAMADgAAAMsHDAAaABIA IgACAAIAMAEBCYABACEAAABGRDM2NkVGNkJDM0FDRjExQUMwODAwODA1RjE0QTJGMABLBwEggAMA DgAAAMsHDAAaABIAIgALAAIAOQEBCIAHABgAAABJUE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEE gAEAGwAAAFJFOiBFbmdpbmVlcmluZyBOZXdzbGV0dGVyAKkJAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEDkAYAYAwA ABIAAAALACMAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAB4AcAABAAAAFwAAAEVuZ2luZWVy aW5nIE5ld3NsZXR0ZXIAAAIBcQABAAAAGwAAAAG60+hLRfZuNvc6vBHPrAgAgF8UovAAAAqeIQAD AAYQU5odMgMABxDmCgAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAAUFNBLElUSEVPTkxZT05FV0hPUkVNRU1CRVJTVE9D Q0RBVkVMRVZJTk9OVEhFQUREUkVTU0xJU1Q/SVZFTkVWRVJSRUNFSVZFREEoUEVSU09OQUwpTk9U SUNFRlJPTURBVkUsSAAAAAADABAQBAAAAAMAERADAAAAAgEJEAEAAAC4CgAAtAoAADoVAABMWkZ1 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([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4261" "Tue" "26" "December" "1995" "18:38:52" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "77" "RE: RE: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: David@InterWorld.com Received: from www (interworld.com [165.254.130.4]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id PAA29240 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 15:34:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by www with Microsoft Mail id <01BAD3C1.687ECFC0@www>; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 18:38:54 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BAD3C1.6884EA40" From: David Levine To: "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" , "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" , "'KellySt@aol.com'" , "rddesign@wolfenet.com" , "RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com" , "stevev@efn.org" To: "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" , "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" Subject: RE: RE: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 18:38:52 -0500 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAD3C1.6884EA40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, SunSITE lost EVERYTHING. They're still trying to figure out with Sun what happened. Apparently, the last backup didn't even turn out to be a complete backup. And when they try restoring from an older backup, the machine keeps freezing up. They promise to have stuff back soon, but it might be a month old (which is not too bad for the Asimov, but really stinks for things like ArchaeoSETI, and a huge amount of stuff that others have on SunSITE). However, every few days they've been promising to have stuff back in a few days... so, I don't really know whether to believe things will be all right or not. Anyway, I have backups of various items, but not the entire site. The problem is that the site was very poorly organized, directory-wise, and several of my sites shared the same directory. The resulting mess was more megabytes than I cared to personally back up, trusting SunSITE's backup devices. You'd be surprised how big LIT alone was. Anyway, this is another reason I've been reorganizing stuff at home (this stuff I've saved) - - to give some sort of logical order to the structure, and make it easier to backup, etc. Never fear, LIT will return (and better than ever)... the question is whe= n. -- David Levine Application Engineer - InterWorld http://www.interworld.com/staff/david/ He tried to kill me with a forklift... ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAD3C1.6884EA40 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IjcXAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEFgAMADgAAAMsHDAAaABIA JgA0AAIAZgEBCYABACEAAAAwMTM3NkVGNkJDM0FDRjExQUMwODAwODA1RjE0QTJGMAAjBwEggAMA DgAAAMsHDAAaABIAJgA2AAIAaAEBCIAHABgAAABJUE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEE gAEAHwAAAFJFOiBSRTogRW5naW5lZXJpbmcgTmV3c2xldHRlcgCaCgENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABA5AG AKgGAAASAAAACwAjAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAAAeAHAAAQAAABsAAABSRTog RW5naW5lZXJpbmcgTmV3c2xldHRlcgAAAgFxAAEAAAAbAAAAAbrT6H6a9m42/Dq8Ec+sCACAXxSi 8AAAZ/myAAMABhC2td63AwAHEDUEAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABZRVMsU1VOU0lURUxPU1RFVkVSWVRI SU5HVEhFWVJFU1RJTExUUllJTkdUT0ZJR1VSRU9VVFdJVEhTVU5XSEFUSEFQUEVORURBUFBBUkVO VExZLFRIRUxBU1RCQUNLVVBESUROAAAAAAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAMAAAACAQkQAQAAAPwEAAD4BAAA DAgAAExaRnWXVusU/wAKAQ8CFQKoBesCgwBQAvIJAgBjaArAc2V0MjcGAAbDAoMyA8UCAHByQnER 4nN0ZW0CgzP3AuQHEwKDNANFEzUHbQKDtjUSzBTINgPGFMg3EsypD99mOBEMMRs+fQqAywjPCdk7 HzkxMhxgCjLHIREgWgoUMjU1AoAKgYMNsQtgbmcxMDMUUKcLChRRC/EgWQeQLAYAgHVuU0lURSAe 0AETwCBFVkVSWVRASElORy4gFkBo6GV5Jx9AIBPAAxADICh0cnkLgGcoEG8g6GZpZwhwZQqFCGAF QPkD8HRoJZIpwBGABUARgNxwcAnwCYAnEUEq0ArA8QnwdGx5JYAp8CegC2AFJkFiANBrdXAgZCBp ZG4ndAqFZXa/CfAoEAhwA6ApkiiRYieg9GEgBaBtC1ARwCegLLT5KzJuZCpRLhInUSgSCoV/H0AT wAWwKFIDUi8gLnFsbwSBLKUsBADBaAuAJ6Br3QngcAQgA1AJ4HooUjAh+wqFJ0IgE1ADcAQAJ6Ao kXcRgC4AJ7F1DdAsoyewb3sCICWAYimhKeA0ICjQaG8skS8SBGACMGgpJjMgIDooKmBpEXA40AQg bm97LrIu4WEwkAIQBcAsIkH7AJAEYHY4hB9AB0Ar4Cey/G5rNPEFsAqFKfAoUQQgHGxpNLAUsRFx ZW9TeEVUSSWAAHAwkC8waLx1Zy8RBGAlsAVAbzfQ/zeUKfAqgTtwJ1ARoAqFN0MbAiAllik1xgqF SG93XS3xciWARWIxMGYH0WT2YROwMPMnN2EvAC4RNpS/KFU3TQqFC4AvIUYmLkqAezgxJYBJLRAC IC1gPVZr/ztgB+AwsUKCLsQ/UC3xPtX/CoUD8CfxLwIn8QUQOTIFsfM7YTBDeXdGcEriN0MstOsE IEGRdgrAaQhgBCAp4H8T4CVwCoU4ojtjLDErsWn/J5JSEScUNoICYBPgOyJCI38sIlQSKcAscFGA ReEKhXAtOFByPaEFsGcAcGl6LwmAJYAtIB9AYzIheS19A/FlQFQRsEVxB0BBgm33PbFSEQQgcxGB CYA+dyehn0EgJ6BYZ1RVMfF1bD3h/yhwB4EEIFZSBGAnkQeAV9BsYnlaokIhbgqFSwBj/1sCKIIq 4BGgAiA9gzfzM7PuclHgXZMlpScEICy0CoVdDbB2OvAHkCcRWQhgJ3cwkC8BXWByE1A20TCQaOVM EWIo0CBMJeBOsQIg/1YzT8k+4VHxQsYAcEJzPVL/YPFK8Eb3H0BXtShSN5QqgvsDcCegKGfTN5Rp ogqFW/BhLgBkKSAtbcEogmf+aTdia7I4QAAgQYIe0G5Q/2AwWgELIEyUVcNiAVigKPH/QFMKhQDA P3E44WlBCJEuw/szhRHAY0RNB8BFcUYRCsDfJYBmUk5DH0AuQyhAci8AfwJATJJfcUWzRDBKkSwi cf8KUCfBQ5E7MTCyRE0K+xpS2jEZIGMN4G3ALQtGF5L7e3MAUGl56AtkFWEL8BKw83uhCiAgRDdQ LTBmQGQRvysAefUrYT9QYDB4s0UjsLc0cTNBbdBJAjAEkFdXYQ9bNn3PJTA5QHRwOi+0L3eEYC4L gHcRd4ISqi4vUS8TwGEN0C9GYH1/MS+Czx1Qgl9+Z30wSPc28QiBYHNrJ+JcESnTSeH9BbBrP1AB gEqBh40cYXtgFjdEth5hAI2wQAA5ANDhSlDr07oBAgFHAAEAAAA1AAAAYz1VUzthPSA7cD1JbnRl cldvcmxkO2w9UHJpdmF0ZSBNREItOTUxMjI2MjMzODUyWi00NAAAAABAAAcwcG5JUOvTugFAAAgw UKdlUevTugEeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAAIBFDQBAAAAEAAAAFSUocApfxAbpYcIACsqJRdL Fw== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAD3C1.6884EA40-- From popserver Tue Dec 26 23:38:21 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2177" "Tue" "26" "December" "1995" "18:40:42" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "44" "RE: RE: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: David@InterWorld.com Received: from www (interworld.com [165.254.130.4]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id PAA29339 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 15:36:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by www with Microsoft Mail id <01BAD3C1.AA1E6EE0@www>; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 18:40:44 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BAD3C1.AA248960" From: David Levine To: "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" , "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" , "'KellySt@aol.com'" , "rddesign@wolfenet.com" , "RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com" , "stevev@efn.org" To: "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" , "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" Subject: RE: RE: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 18:40:42 -0500 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAD3C1.AA248960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh, as for my previous post - I do apologize - I've checked my archives and have also received some CCs from Steve and a few from Ric (plus one from Zenon). -- David Levine Application Engineer - InterWorld http://www.interworld.com/staff/david/ He tried to kill me with a forklift... ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAD3C1.AA248960 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+Ii0XAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEFgAMADgAAAMsHDAAaABIA KAAqAAIAXgEBCYABACEAAAAwNTM3NkVGNkJDM0FDRjExQUMwODAwODA1RjE0QTJGMAAnBwEggAMA DgAAAMsHDAAaABIAKAAsAAIAYAEBCIAHABgAAABJUE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEE gAEAHwAAAFJFOiBSRTogRW5naW5lZXJpbmcgTmV3c2xldHRlcgCaCgENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABA5AG AMADAAASAAAACwAjAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAAAeAHAAAQAAABsAAABSRTog RW5naW5lZXJpbmcgTmV3c2xldHRlcgAAAgFxAAEAAAAbAAAAAbrT6H6a9m42/Dq8Ec+sCACAXxSi 8AAAkwKzAAMABhAjM1BFAwAHEOYAAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABPSCxBU0ZPUk1ZUFJFVklPVVNQT1NU LUlET0FQT0xPR0laRS1JVkVDSEVDS0VETVlBUkNISVZFU0FOREhBVkVBTFNPUkVDRUlWRURTT01F Q0NTRlJPTVNURVZFQU5EQUZFV0ZSAAAAAAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAMAAAACAQkQAQAAABMCAAAPAgAA 1gMAAExaRnU1jbiQ/wAKAQ8CFQKoBesCgwBQAvIJAgBjaArAc2V0MjcGAAbDAoMyA8UCAHByQnER 4nN0ZW0CgzP3AuQHEwKDNANFEzUHbQKDtjUSzBTINgPGFMg3EsypD99mOBEMMRs+fQqAywjPCdk7 HzkxMhxgCjLHIREgWgoUMjU1AoAKgYMNsQtgbmcxMDMUUBcLChRRC/JjEqAgT2g4LCBhBCACEAXA bXliIBNQZXZpCGAEIHACbxPAIC0gSSBkDm8lwCcAHtBnaXpluSdCJ3YoQBFwBZBrCYDXJjIKwBFw aSigcwqFAHBvKTARgCihB0BzJ6AfQGMeZSnBKTArIAeAIENDvyXhA2EGABPQKtIqgWEl8KMH0Sxz UmljCoUoC1BvJtECIChALHNaCfACICmGLgqFCotsaTM2DfDrJHwTUG8T0GMFQAqPC5GdGlIxGSAl UDJ4LS0LRv8XkjSTAFAAoDKfC2QVYQvwrxKwNMIMMDb2RCrAaSkwzkwmkS8gMxVBcAtQLiDsYXQm sAOgRSOwOkEEkJcnQgIwBJBXBbBsZDd/CziHNvZoAkBwOi8vWnc/gC4LgDxxdzyyLikFoG0vE8Bh DdAvZH05wi89bwBQNv89jzbYSK0oQHQIgSkwdCegawMQZwMgLAED8HRoLVIFsGv7MVABgC5HkEMt HGE0gBpQC0KtHmEASlAAQAA5AAASA5Lr07oBAgFHAAEAAAA1AAAAYz1VUzthPSA7cD1JbnRlcldv cmxkO2w9UHJpdmF0ZSBNREItOTUxMjI2MjM0MDQyWi00NQAAAABAAAcwgPYkbOvTugFAAAgwsFIF k+vTugEeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAAIBFDQBAAAAEAAAAFSUocApfxAbpYcIACsqJRcI/w== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAD3C1.AA248960-- From popserver Wed Dec 27 01:05:49 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2448" "Tue" "26" "December" "1995" "20:06:54" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "48" "RE: RE: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: David@InterWorld.com Received: from www (interworld.com [165.254.130.4]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id RAA03521 for ; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 17:02:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by www with Microsoft Mail id <01BAD3CD.B831AE50@www>; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 20:07:01 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BAD3CD.B8394F70" From: David Levine To: "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" , "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" , "'KellySt@aol.com'" , "rddesign@wolfenet.com" , "RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com" , "stevev@efn.org" To: "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" , "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" Subject: RE: RE: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 20:06:54 -0500 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAD3CD.B8394F70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Okay, I've heard from SunSITE - it turns out the latest full backups they have are October 25, and they are just now starting to restore them. Bleah. They promise it won't happen again (and that we'll never lose more than a day's work in the future)... but, still.... Bleah. -- David Levine Application Engineer - InterWorld http://www.interworld.com/staff/david/ He tried to kill me with a forklift... ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAD3CD.B8394F70 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IgIBAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEFgAMADgAAAMsHDAAaABQA BgA2AAIASgEBCYABACEAAAAwRTM3NkVGNkJDM0FDRjExQUMwODAwODA1RjE0QTJGMAA3BwEggAMA DgAAAMsHDAAaABQABwABAAIAFgEBCIAHABgAAABJUE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEE gAEAHwAAAFJFOiBSRTogRW5naW5lZXJpbmcgTmV3c2xldHRlcgCaCgENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABA5AG ADAEAAASAAAACwAjAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAAAeAHAAAQAAABsAAABSRTog RW5naW5lZXJpbmcgTmV3c2xldHRlcgAAAgFxAAEAAAAbAAAAAbrT6H6a9m42/Dq8Ec+sCACAXxSi 8AADlyPUAAMABhBIaKiIAwAHED4BAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABPS0FZLElWRUhFQVJERlJPTVNVTlNJ VEUtSVRUVVJOU09VVFRIRUxBVEVTVEZVTExCQUNLVVBTVEhFWUhBVkVBUkVPQ1RPQkVSMjUsQU5E VEhFWUFSRUpVU1ROT1dTVEFSVElOAAAAAAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAMAAAACAQkQAQAAAIECAAB9AgAA WwQAAExaRnVfwcud/wAKAQ8CFQKoBesCgwBQAvIJAgBjaArAc2V0MjcGAAbDAoMyA8UCAHByQnER 4nN0ZW0CgzP3AuQHEwKDNANFEzUHbQKDtjUSzBTINgPGFMg3EsypD99mOBEMMRs+fQqAywjPCdk7 HzkxMhxgCjLHIREgWgoUMjU1AoAKgYMNsQtgbmcxMDMUUBcLChRRC/JjEqAgT2sAYXksIEkndmVo IGhlCxEgA1IGAHUAblNJVEUgLSD6aQVAdAhwBjEIYCehJkAeIAtgE9ATwCaQdWxsxQqFYgDQa3Vw BCAoYTp5JjBhJhEKwCYgT2PodG9iBJAgIuAl0ABwJyaAKkMq4mp1KOFub653CoUTwArAdAuAZyew fG8gH0ATwAWwJiAoYW2gLiAgQmwmUGgvIX5UKlITUANwBAAmICeRd5kCICd0CoURgHBwCfDlKtBn C3EgKCvkKLAwwOxlJykwLPBlJhAFwB7QjzBxBGAuswORYSBkJbDMJ3MKhTDQcmsngAOgxyhiKRAn wWUpLjbAKbDvKDAl0BPAAxBsNsEvJwqF4QqLbGkzNg3wJHwwId8T0CswOMwLVRpSMRkgJVD5Osgt LQtGF5I84wBQAKD/Ou8LZBVhC/ASsD0SDDA/RmpEKqBpJoBMM3ALgGWtO2VBMbA5oGMosGkCILwg RSOwQpErcSdwSQIw5QSQVwWwbGQ/z0DXP0aCaAJAcDovL3dH0F4uC4BEwTWRRSAuBaBtti8toQ3Q LzTQQiEvRb/vAFA/T0XfPyhILsEIgSwB/S5AazdxNAAmIAPwKGA0of8CEDWwOaABgDbBS30cYTzQ FxpQSv0eYQBSoAAAAEAAOQBwtcSc99O6AQIBRwABAAAANQAAAGM9VVM7YT0gO3A9SW50ZXJXb3Js ZDtsPVByaXZhdGUgTURCLTk1MTIyNzAxMDY1NVotNDYAAAAAQAAHMMASvZz307oBQAAIMHAKF6H3 07oBHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAAACARQ0AQAAABAAAABUlKHAKX8QG6WHCAArKiUXgC8= ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAD3CD.B8394F70-- From popserver Wed Dec 27 18:01:26 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2712" "Wed" "27" "December" "1995" "15:39:05" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "62" "Re: David" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id GAA27111 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 06:37:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA10767 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 27 Dec 1995 15:38:57 +0100 Message-Id: <199512271438.AA10767@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com Subject: Re: David Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 15:39:05 +0100 Hello David, >It's interesting to note that I've been administrating four other web >sites... one of them, ArchaeoSETI, has also recently been >"disappointed" in my "performance". I would like everyone to remember >that we are ALL volunteers in this endeavor... this includes me. True, but I still don't know why your support for SD stopped the way it did. >LIT was meant from the first to be an entirely web-based campus. >To be honest, I've never liked the idea of an email newsletter, and >would have preferred some kind of web-based discussion system >(and one a little more stable than the one I had originally written). I like the idea of a discussion system, in fact that is what we are doing for the last 2 months. At the time I didn't vote on this because I did not participate that much. A "subscribe" list would probably be very handy. >One of the ideas of LIT was that it would grow. I wanted it to be big. >In this case, it was to have several people helping me run such things >as classes and discussions. I can't do everything. When LIT >returns, I will still need help. On of my reasons for disappointment was that some long time ago I offered you some help by writing some documents and a program. You replied to me that at that time you had no time and would write back. After waiting a few weeks I send a similar letter once more. Again you replied the same. But I'm still waiting for an answer. My offer still stands... >One of the things I'd like to do ASAP is find a charitable listserv >that could perhaps support the discussion list. I have no idea where >to start doing this. Does anyone have any ideas? As far as I know this can be done at any server with form-capabilities, the thing you need to install is a auto-mailer. (I tried to do it once but got not very far.) >RE: the last message from me being on Dec. 17th. Does anyone realize >that it's the 26th today? In my book, nine days since my last message >(and actually I sent something this very morning) is not exactly >a very long time. Hell, the newsletters from LIT used to come out >once a week, and were usually late at that. Is 9 days really an >eternity all of the sudden? That message of Dec. 17th was the last and the ONLY letter I received from you, the only other trace I have found was at Nov. 10th where Kevin told that you had written him. As I wrote before I can understand that you are busy, but I can't understand that you have not 15 minutes to write a letter to people that try to build something together with you. > >Attachment Converted: D:\REEngin1 > What is this attachment? All letters from you seem to include it, but when I take a look at it, it is garbled completely. Timothy From popserver Wed Dec 27 18:01:28 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5100" "Wed" "27" "December" "1995" "15:39:12" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "95" "Re: Kelly" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id GAA27117 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 06:38:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA10773 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 27 Dec 1995 15:39:06 +0100 Message-Id: <199512271439.AA10773@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com Subject: Re: Kelly Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 15:39:12 +0100 Timothy replies to Kelly > >>After rethinking it, I see what you mean. > >>The only thing I'm not sure about is what the physics of plasma reflection > >>are. We may reflect radio-waves to the ionosphere everyday but how does it > >>work? And does it work in the Asimov also? > >It would certainly involve a much larger scale, and I don't know what the >reflection efficency is. Or how much mass would need to be ionized to keep >up the reflection. One thing for certain, the stuff will be HOT! I think it is that HOT thing that worries me, it may well be that that will screw up your whole nice reflection. >That would be true if all major areas of research were being investigated and >resonably well funded. But most areas of fusion research that I know of have >no funding. Magnetic plasma fusion is geting funded, but at least in the US >the systems are dead ends. Even if they worked they'ld be useless (to large >to be intergrated into the power grid.). Where as more inovative designs >that are considered more promising (like Bussards among others) are geting no >funding. You can't assume that more money is used for this, because I could assume that more money is used for research for anti-matter containment and creation. Both fusion and anti-matter are areas where little is known about. >Oh yeah, the single stage to orbit program (SSTO). My excorperation, and the >NASA department I used to work at in NASA headquarters were working on that >program. Increadable potential. It could cut costs to orbit by a factor of >100! Fed Ex is even rumored to be seriously interested in using them for >suborbital intercontenental mail carriers. E-mail is cheaper and faster :) >I'ld debate that. Since your stuck in an artificial habitat anyway, one in >space has easy access to all the floating ores and raw materials in the solar >system. Much of which would be hard to get at on a planet (ever see a strip >mine) and much harder to transport. I'm a firm beleaver that heavy industry >will largely move off earth in a century or two. If your already off planet >and in a starship, trying to set up on a planet would be hellish. Hmm, yeps, you may well be right. But the place where people want to live will be on a nice planet. Doing research on a planet or building industries is still much more interesting than flying back to Earth. And if it isn't more intersting, then research will gives more fruits for the money than flying back would do. >People won't see it right away, but they will know people are out there. I >think that would be enough to get public interest. I know public interest in >robot probes is near nill. As NASA constantly found. Robots were thought of >as scout craft for maned expiditions. If no manned folowups were planed (and >frequently mentioned) public interest in funding the robots droped way off. > Generally a so what atitude. Drove the Robot probe teams CRAZY! I think that the mission will not be funded by governments but by commercial firms. They would use it as advertisement and gain of new technology. Such a project will not be done by one country, but by all developped countries. So the competition between countries would not be the same as they were in past times. So public interest should have a completely other background: love for the unknown. Ordinary people probably are more concerned about other things. > >>So where to and when is our new goal? Until now only fusion may bring > >>us out of the solar system within reasonable time. Even if you use a > >>beam, the fusion is necessary to maintain the beam. > >Well you could power the beam with big solar electric power platforms in >space. (The kind of stuff the L-5 socyety kept proposing to power earth.) No, Earth's consumption of electricity is much much less than that of the Asimov. As I showed before you would need an array bigger than the moon! And than you only have the energy but not the beam. For that you need again an enormous array of high power masers. >I would definatly prefer a dead world as a possible colony site over a lush >one like earth. Wouldn't be as interesting to study, but much more >survivable. The problem is any world that could support us, probably has >life. So how do we solve that? Walking in spacesuits all day isn't that much fun. >Hell, we're still trying to find cures for all the plagues on earth. So far >our best luck seem to be in destroying the worst sections of the ecology >(draining wetlands, fogging everything with pestasides, etc..) and building >urban semi-ecologies. Most of the habited areas of the developed world >(europe, North America, etc..) do this so routinely we don't even notice >anymore. But then living in a coutry thats largly under sea level I hardly >have to tell you. ;) The place I live is save, even if all the polar ice melts away. :) (33 metres above sealevel) What you write may be true, but is not complete, we have found cures for many diseases and our understanding gets better all the time. In 50 years this will only be better and more advanced. Timothy From popserver Wed Dec 27 18:01:31 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2790" "Wed" "27" "December" "1995" "15:39:21" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "53" "Re: Kevin" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id GAA27122 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 06:38:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA10782 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 27 Dec 1995 15:39:15 +0100 Message-Id: <199512271439.AA10782@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com Subject: Re: Kevin Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 15:39:21 +0100 ReplyTo: Kevin Subject: Bio interaction between earth and E.T. organisms. >this is not to say that a alien ecosystem would be totally useless to >us. who know what wonders we may find. how bout an organism that can >"grow" silicon chips? of solar cells? perhaps some organism lives in a >metal rich environment and can really concentrate metal ores. Perhaps, >perhaps, perhaps. I could go on all day, how bout a critter that _likes_ >70 % ethanol (I'll bet that many companies would love to make brandy >without having to distill) bacteria that excrete oil, or plastic, or ones >that prefer it as a food source. the list goes on and on, and I'm very >willing to bet that none of these creatures will be the first exploitable >alien lifeform. and I'd further bet that the universe is not only >stranger than I imagined, it's stranger than i _can_ imagine. It seems that some of that kind of bacteria also live on earth, every week new ones are discovered. Solar cells are a bit to complex to be produced by bacteria and I think they won't produce pure silicium bars either. So maybe you imagined a bit too much. What bacteria are best at is converting molecules (not atoms). But you shouldn't forget that we are getting better and better in doing the same thing with technology. >In short, A totally barren 1 G planent would be ideal for colonization, >but totally boring for study. That means we need two planets :) Subject: mission >I think perhaps it's time to either put the "Asimov" on a diet, or >approach the problem from the other end. To put the "Asimov" on a diet, >I'd suggest at least a thousand fold reduction in payload down to 1E+05 Kg >I think this rules out self sustained mission, and requires a return. I >still think we can go at 1 G, and use a MARS for the engine, but in order >to over come the photon thrust, we're going to have to bring more >reaction mass ( and use a slower exhaust velocity). for the return trip, >I'd suggest scrapping the lineac entirely, and relying on photonic thrust >for both portions of the trip. this means that some payload capacity >will have to be devoted to maser transmitter control packages, but i >don't see this as a real problem. the crew should be pared down to no >more than 100 people, and the return module can totaly scrap the hab ring >which can then be left in the target system as a stepping stone for a >follow up crew if one is deemed desirable As Kelly said, 1E5 is too small, probably the engines alone would weigh that much. Also such "maser transmitter control packages" as you call them so neatly won't be thato small, you are talking about an array of several square kilometres filled with masers and powerstations. (See also my letter to Kelly at Dec. 23th) Timothy From popserver Wed Dec 27 18:01:46 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["11958" "Wed" "27" "December" "1995" "10:30:27" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "214" "RE: David" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: David@InterWorld.com Received: from www (interworld.com [165.254.130.4]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id HAA28461 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 07:25:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by www with Microsoft Mail id <01BAD446.5C2BE610@www>; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 10:30:36 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BAD446.5C45D6B0" From: David Levine To: "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" , "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" , "KellySt@aol.com" , "rddesign@wolfenet.com" , "RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com" , "stevev@efn.org" To: "'Timothy van der Linden'" , "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" Subject: RE: David Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 10:30:27 -0500 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAD446.5C45D6B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >True, but I still don't know why your support for SD stopped the way it >did. As I've said, I don't really think my support has ever stopped. The newsletters fell apart at my end, mainly because the file containing the email addresses got corrupted. Yes, it could have been rebuilt, but there were absolutely hundreds of people involved... Anyway, I certainly had never intended (and still don't intend) that the official newsletters are dead. It WILL return. >>LIT was meant from the first to be an entirely web-based campus. >>To be honest, I've never liked the idea of an email newsletter, and >>would have preferred some kind of web-based discussion system >>(and one a little more stable than the one I had originally written). > >I like the idea of a discussion system, in fact that is what we are doing >for the last 2 months. At the time I didn't vote on this because I did not >participate that much. A "subscribe" list would probably be very handy. Actually, perhaps I didn't explain myself well... when I say a "web-based discussion system" I mean one that works entirely though the WWW, and does not include email in any way. You would post using forms, and read the discussion on a series of pages. However, I think the majority of the most active people seem to prefer an email discussion list. >On of my reasons for disappointment was that some long time ago I >offered >you some help by writing some documents and a program. You replied >to me >that at that time you had no time and would write back. After waiting a >few >weeks I send a similar letter once more. Again you replied the same. But >I'm >still waiting for an answer. >My offer still stands... Just so you know, my response right now to such an offer would be "please, go ahead, write something and let me know when you have finished". This is how I responded to several people who wished to write articles for LIT (i.e. Ges Seger, Jack Sarfatti come to mind... there are a few others who have contributed that I can't remember off-hand at the moment) in the past... If you made an offer to which I said "I don't have the time at the moment" in response, I can only assume that your offer was not of the "I have an idea for an article I'd like to write" variety, but rather a "what can I do to help?" offer.... my response to the latter would STILL be "I'll have to get back to you, I don't have the time right now", mainly because I don't have the time to figure out who should be writing what, when, and how. I always accept anything you'd want to put on the pages. When SunSITE gets its act together again, I'll do a quick survey for you, and I think you'll find that at least a third of the starship school pages are not by me... and ALL of them were pages people just sent me, saying "here, can you use this?" So, please, if you want to do something (and this is to everyone), please do it. When LIT is back, it can continue to grow in the way it has in the past. >>One of the things I'd like to do ASAP is find a charitable listserv >>that could perhaps support the discussion list. I have no idea where >>to start doing this. Does anyone have any ideas? > >As far as I know this can be done at any server with form-capabilities, the >thing you need to install is a auto-mailer. (I tried to do it once but got >not very far.) I think we're talking at cross-purposes again. I'm looking for a listserv at some site somewhere that is charitable enough to start a new discussion list (I have heard that many listservs will do this - I just don't know how to go about doing it) for us... it would make things very simple, and very automatic. >That message of Dec. 17th was the last and the ONLY letter I received >from >you, the only other trace I have found was at Nov. 10th where Kevin told >that you had written him. > >As I wrote before I can understand that you are busy, but I can't >understand >that you have not 15 minutes to write a letter to people that try to build >something together with you. Um, I've looked through my archive of the current batch of "newsletters", extending back to November 5th (again, a majority of these come from Kelly), and find... um... let's see... zero from Tim, out of fifty nine messages since then. When I respond to this list (and granted it's not often... but to be honest, most of this discussion is out of my technical depth, and I've rarely participated in the project since it's beginnings over a year ago anyway, even when it was five newsletters once a week) it's reply-to-all.... if you're not getting them, I can only assume you're not getting the letters I'm responding to anyway. Actually, I have a bad feeling now that apparently with my 59 messages, I'm still missing quite a number. Sigh. >> >>Attachment Converted: D:\REEngin1 >> > >What is this attachment? All letters from you seem to include it, but >when I >take a look at it, it is garbled completely. > >Timothy On this front, I'm sorry, I don't know. Certainly I'm not attaching anything to my documents. We're using Microsoft Exchange at work, which every time it starts reminds me its a Beta, sooooo.... Also, some people tell me that some of my letters include odd characters (=20, or something) at the end of each line... Also something I don't see when I'm typing messages. 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NAA21077 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:41:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from sea-ts3-p47.wolfenet.com (sea-ts3-p47.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.229]) by wolfe.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id NAA08002; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:43:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199512272143.NAA08002@wolfe.net> X-Sender: rddesign@gonzo.wolfenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: rddesign@wolfenet.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:43:13 -0800 (PST) >ReplyTo : Ric > >>In system travel should give us a good idea of how well people adapt to >>space travel. A few missions of longer and longer duration to near and then >>farther planets would help to see the adaptiveness of humans to prolonged >>space flight. By the time we sent some folks to Titan and back we could >>refine the problem and work on means to sidestep these. > >Yes, that will give us a preview. But I think you don't have to wait for >that: Imagine living and working in your own house, never allowed to open >the door and go outside. When looking outside nothing happens, the stars >almost don't change. How would you feel? >How many people are there that can survive happely and healty in such an >environment? >Probably an important feature of the spacevessel would be that it feeled >much like Earth's environment. This doesn't mean it should look the same, >but several things like a leisure room, a bar, a garden of some sort (and >maybe a swimming pool) also crew quarters should not be too small. In fact >all kinds of things that would make the spaceship bigger and heavier would >make living better. >So the dilemmas are size and weight versus crew happyness and healthyness. >The point is to make a spacevessel that feels like YOUR environment (home, >work, shops). Ric replies: This is about like what I was saying many, many months ago. It wouldn't be much different than life in a submarine. The spaces would be larger. The number of people would be many more. There would be windows where as a submarine doesn't. The only limiting factor for subs is the food issue. ( Take it with us or grow it along the way, eother one ) Humans are a pretty addaptable animal. Look at how many different localities they inhabit on this earth. The room to move about and jobs to do and time and places to relax are importent to the mission. The Mir and Space Shuttle are OK for short periods of time. For years and years you can't have enough space and room. Hab modules with different "landscapes" and " cultures" would help relieve boredom. >>We are going to have to establish a solarsystem based society before we >>would be able to convince anyone of the need to go anywhere else. > >So if we want to continue the SD project we should make it 2140 instead of 2040. Very possibly The best Beads come from RD Designs. Ric & Denisse Hedman From popserver Wed Dec 27 21:52:50 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["671" "Wed" "27" "December" "1995" "13:54:05" "-0800" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" nil "19" "Re: possible LIT site." "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: rddesign@wolfenet.com Received: from wolfe.net (mail1.wolfe.net [204.157.98.11]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with ESMTP id NAA21435 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:47:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from sea-ts3-p47.wolfenet.com (sea-ts3-p47.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.229]) by wolfe.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id NAA08533; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:54:05 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199512272154.NAA08533@wolfe.net> X-Sender: rddesign@gonzo.wolfenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: rddesign@wolfenet.com To: Kevin C Houston Cc: "David Levine \"jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu\"" , "'KellySt@aol.com'" , "RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com" , "stevev@efn.org" , "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" , "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" Subject: Re: possible LIT site. Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:54:05 -0800 (PST) I would be willing to part with $20.00 (US) per year to see this >continue. >I've seen quotes in various magazines from $30 (US) for 10 MB on up. I >would think that for as little as $100 a year, we could have a very nice >website with lots and lots of room. Counting heads that i see here >often, (no pressure, I'm just thinking out loud) me, Dave, Kelly, Ric, >Timothy, Steve. That's 6 people who contribute regularly, would bring >the price down to $16.67 each. the more people who help, the less each >of us would have to pay. Count me in for a $20.00 bill. The rest of you all in?? Ric The best Beads come from RD Designs. Ric & Denisse Hedman From popserver Wed Dec 27 22:03:11 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3987" "Wed" "27" "December" "1995" "23:02:01" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "71" "RE: David" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id OAA22119 for ; Wed, 27 Dec 1995 14:01:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA21112 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 27 Dec 1995 23:01:56 +0100 Message-Id: <199512272201.AA21112@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com Subject: RE: David Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 23:02:01 +0100 ReplyTo: David >>I like the idea of a discussion system, in fact that is what we are doing >>for the last 2 months. At the time I didn't vote on this because I did not >>participate that much. A "subscribe" list would probably be very handy. > >Actually, perhaps I didn't explain myself well... when I say a "web-based >discussion system" I mean one that works entirely though the WWW, and >does not include email in any way. You would post using forms, and >read the discussion on a series of pages. However, I think the majority >of the most active people seem to prefer an email discussion list. What is the real difference? If you have a mail-adress, you can forward all mail to a single file. (maybe change the filename every week) That file could be made visible in a web page. This of course is the most crude method, but it will work. (this way all mail-headers are included of course) Having to fill out forms takes a while, even if you copy it directly from a pre-written text into the form. For people with limited (dialup) access it is much more handy to send a single mail. Also downloading several pages is less convenient than just getting your mail. >Just so you know, my response right now to such an offer would be >"please, go ahead, write something and let me know when you have >finished". This is how I responded to several people who wished to >write articles for LIT (i.e. Ges Seger, Jack Sarfatti come to mind... >there are a few others who have contributed that I can't remember >off-hand at the moment) in the past... If you made an offer to which >I said "I don't have the time at the moment" in response, I can >only assume that your offer was not of the "I have an idea for an >article I'd like to write" variety, but rather a "what can I do to help?" >offer.... my response to the latter would STILL be "I'll have to get >back to you, I don't have the time right now", mainly because I >don't have the time to figure out who should be writing what, when, >and how. I always accept anything you'd want to put on the pages. >When SunSITE gets its act together again, I'll do a quick survey >for you, and I think you'll find that at least a third of the starship >school pages are not by me... and ALL of them were pages people >just sent me, saying "here, can you use this?" So, please, if >you want to do something (and this is to everyone), please do it. >When LIT is back, it can continue to grow in the way it has in the >past. In fact you had already some subjects (shown on some webpage), I asked you if you could tell me what the exact purpose was, because some of the subjects were quite broad. It would have been better if you had responded: "Just write, and I will put it on the web" instead you indeed wrote "I'll have to get back to you, I don't have the time right now". Also I said I had a Pascal-program that could do some calculations, I don't know what your answer was, but it wasn't "send it to me". >>As I wrote before I can understand that you are busy, but I can't >>understand >>that you have not 15 minutes to write a letter to people that try to build >>something together with you. > >Um, I've looked through my archive of the current batch of "newsletters", >extending back to November 5th (again, a majority of these come from >Kelly), and find... um... let's see... zero from Tim, out of fifty nine >messages since then. When I respond to this list (and granted it's >not often... but to be honest, most of this discussion is out of my >technical depth, and I've rarely participated in the project since it's >beginnings over a year ago anyway, even when it was five newsletters >once a week) it's reply-to-all.... if you're not getting them, I can only >assume you're not getting the letters I'm responding to anyway. >Actually, I have a bad feeling now that apparently with my 59 messages, >I'm still missing quite a number. Sigh. There are about 140 of them, I have all letters since contact was "lost". Timothy From popserver Sat Dec 30 04:58:29 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["8226" "Fri" "29" "December" "1995" "21:53:43" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "201" "Re: RE: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com (mail06.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.108]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id SAA05669 for ; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 18:53:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA29778; Fri, 29 Dec 1995 21:53:43 -0500 Message-ID: <951229215342_80862787@mail06.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, stevev@efn.org, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: RE: Engineering Newsletter Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 21:53:43 -0500 Sunsite didn't have a good backup since OCTOBER!! I'm glad were not paying them, at least were getting our moneys worth out of them. Dave, whats ArchaeoSETI? RE: Timothy replies to Kelly > > > >>After rethinking it, I see what you mean. > > >>The only thing I'm not sure about is what the physics of plasma reflection > > >>are. We may reflect radio-waves to the ionosphere everyday but how does it > > >>work? And does it work in the Asimov also? > > > >It would certainly involve a much larger scale, and I don't know what the > >reflection efficency is. Or how much mass would need to be ionized to keep > >up the reflection. One thing for certain, the stuff will be HOT! > > I think it is that HOT thing that worries me, it may well be that that > will screw up your whole nice reflection. Hot would be good for the reflection. It would meen it was more ionized. Also it would be more presure for drive purposes. Might be a little hard on the hull thou. ;) > >That would be true if all major areas of research were being investigated and > >resonably well funded. But most areas of fusion research that I know of have > >no funding. Magnetic plasma fusion is geting funded, but at least in the US > >the systems are dead ends. Even if they worked they'ld be useless (to large > >to be intergrated into the power grid.). Where as more inovative designs > >that are considered more promising (like Bussards among others) are geting no > >funding. > > You can't assume that more money is used for this, because I could assume > that more money is used for research for anti-matter containment and > creation. Both fusion and anti-matter are areas where little is known about. I wasn't refering to LIT assumptions, only real world. But, if we are to assume a large scale space infastructure. I guess we can assume it was worth there while to develope fusion systems. > >Oh yeah, the single stage to orbit program (SSTO). My excorperation, and the > >NASA department I used to work at in NASA headquarters were working on that > >program. Increadable potential. It could cut costs to orbit by a factor of > >100! Fed Ex is even rumored to be seriously interested in using them for > >suborbital intercontenental mail carriers. > > E-mail is cheaper and faster :) A but its so hard to E-mail a xmas present! ;) > >I'ld debate that. Since your stuck in an artificial habitat anyway, one in > >space has easy access to all the floating ores and raw materials in the solar > >system. Much of which would be hard to get at on a planet (ever see a strip > >mine) and much harder to transport. I'm a firm beleaver that heavy industry > >will largely move off earth in a century or two. If your already off planet > >and in a starship, trying to set up on a planet would be hellish. > > Hmm, yeps, you may well be right. But the place where people want to live > will be on a nice planet. Hey, if they want a nice planet their going to be out of luck on out flight. We'll only be ofering dead, or plague worlds. > Doing research on a planet or building industries is still much more > interesting than flying back to Earth. And if it isn't more intersting, then > research will gives more fruits for the money than flying back would do. Building industries? I don't follow. Research I can understand, but obviously they can't do that forever. Nor do I expect to settle for living out the rest of their lives in the hab deck. > >People won't see it right away, but they will know people are out there. > > I think that would be enough to get public interest. I know public interest in > >robot probes is near nill. As NASA constantly found. Robots were thought of > >as scout craft for maned expiditions. If no manned folowups were planed (and > >frequently mentioned) public interest in funding the robots droped way off. > > Generally a so what atitude. Drove the Robot probe teams CRAZY! > > I think that the mission will not be funded by governments but by commercial > firms. They would use it as advertisement and gain of new technology. Such a > project will not be done by one country, but by all developped countries. So > the competition between countries would not be the same as they were in past > times. So public interest should have a completely other background: love > for the unknown. Ordinary people probably are more concerned about other things. I can't see corporations droping probably hundreds of billions of dollars on a project like this. It absolutly would have no short term benifit (decades at least) and advertizing would supply this kind of money. International projects ARE A DISSASTER!! I was in the International Space Station Freedom Program, and can assure you it convinced about everybody that international cost everyone far more, slowed the program WAY down, and generally made it impossible. If a project like this requirers international particip[ation, it will be a write off. > > > >>So where to and when is our new goal? Until now only fusion may bring > > >>us out of the solar system within reasonable time. Even if you use a > > >>beam, the fusion is necessary to maintain the beam. > > > >Well you could power the beam with big solar electric power platforms in > >space. (The kind of stuff the L-5 socyety kept proposing to power earth.) > > No, Earth's consumption of electricity is much much less than that of the > Asimov. As I showed before you would need an array bigger than the moon! And > than you only have the energy but not the beam. For that you need again an > enormous array of high power masers. I don't remember you mentioning that. In any event its the cost not the size that would make a difference. > > >I would definatly prefer a dead world as a possible colony site over a lush > >one like earth. Wouldn't be as interesting to study, but much more > >survivable. The problem is any world that could support us, probably has > >life. > > So how do we solve that? Walking in spacesuits all day isn't that much fun. Exploration is seldom a lot of fun. I can't think of anyway to solve the biohazard problem other than space suits, or staying in the ship and using tele-operated robots. > >Hell, we're still trying to find cures for all the plagues on earth. So far > >our best luck seem to be in destroying the worst sections of the ecology > >(draining wetlands, fogging everything with pestasides, etc..) and building > >urban semi-ecologies. Most of the habited areas of the developed world > >(europe, North America, etc..) do this so routinely we don't even notice > >anymore. But then living in a coutry thats largly under sea level I hardly > >have to tell you. ;) > > The place I live is save, even if all the polar ice melts away. :) (33 > metres above sealevel) > What you write may be true, but is not complete, we have found cures for > many diseases and our understanding gets better all the time. In 50 years > this will only be better and more advanced. True, but its taken us centuries to get this far in our medical skills. We won't have centuries, or even decades, to learn how to fight the alien bio-hazards. > >ReplyTo : Ric > >>We are going to have to establish a solarsystem based society before > >>we would be able to convince anyone of the need to go anywhere else. > > > >So if we want to continue the SD project we should make it 2140 instead of > 2040. > > Very possibly > If we shove the calendar to 2140 from 2050, we'ld have nothing to base it on. We would have to debate what type of physics, much less engineering we could assume. Oh, what did.. whoever said it (I never got the origional message) mean by: > >>We are going to have to establish a solarsystem based society before > >>we would be able to convince anyone of the need to go anywhere else. We obviously arn't going to NEED to go to another star system, and certainly we've never come up with a reason anyone would want to stay in this other starsystem. (Trade obviously isn't practical with the technology we're discusing.) But that doesn't meen people wouldn't be interested in finding out what is there. Kelly P.S. I suppose I'ld kick in $20 for the cause if it would help. From popserver Sun Dec 31 01:59:18 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6198" "Sat" "30" "December" "1995" "22:07:00" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "130" "Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id NAA07583 for ; Sat, 30 Dec 1995 13:05:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA16549 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 30 Dec 1995 22:06:56 +0100 Message-Id: <199512302106.AA16549@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com Subject: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 22:07:00 +0100 Timothy replies to Kelly: >>You can't assume that more money is used for this, because I could assume >>that more money is used for research for anti-matter containment and >>creation. Both fusion and anti-matter are areas where little is known >>about. > >I wasn't refering to LIT assumptions, only real world. But, if we are to >assume a large scale space infastructure. I guess we can assume it was worth >there while to develope fusion systems. Indeed, but so would anti-matter systems after a while. >>Doing research on a planet or building industries is still much more >>interesting than flying back to Earth. And if it isn't more intersting, then >>research will gives more fruits for the money than flying back would do. > >Building industries? I don't follow. For some kind of colonization. Even if it is used as "refresh" point for futere missions to other solarsystems, it needs some form of selfsufficiency. Therefor it needs "farms" and buildings, you can't make them all by hand, so you need some form of small industry. >Research I can understand, but obviously they can't do that forever. Why not, there will be plenty to figure out. >Nor do I expect to settle for living out the rest of their lives in the hab >deck. Why don't you expect them to do that? I still don't see that as suicide, they can live perfectly healthy lives. >I can't see corporations droping probably hundreds of billions of dollars on >a project like this. It absolutly would have no short term benifit (decades >at least) and advertizing would supply this kind of money. One Japanese building company is seriously thinking about how it could build on the moon. Now it may be a sign of advancement(=adverticement) but in 20 years they may be the first(=money) to build there. Indeed one company would not have enough money, but one company alone could not build a city, so several companies will take their share. And after all, the government's money is in fact the money of the companies. >International projects ARE A DISSASTER!! I was in the International Space >Station Freedom Program, and can assure you it convinced about everybody that >international cost everyone far more, slowed the program WAY down, and >generally made it impossible. If a project like this requirers international >particip[ation, it will be a write off. May be, but a single country couldn't do it either. I don't know all about problems about Freedom, but wasn't NASA the main "sponsor"? Such a project would be a challenge for mankind, it would not ALLOW us to work together, it would INSIST us working together. Maybe today such a project will not work, but countries are aligning. I know this sound biblical: "When all sheep listen to one herdsman...", but I think it's better than that: "The sum of the parts is much more than the parts themselves". >>No, Earth's consumption of electricity is much much less than that of the >>Asimov. As I showed before you would need an array bigger than the moon! >>And than you only have the energy but not the beam. For that you need again >>an enormous array of high power masers. > >I don't remember you mentioning that. In any event its the cost not the size >that would make a difference. Size is a problem of feasability. If things get too big, it takes also more time to build them. An array of thousands or even a million square kilometres is not possible to build in a reasonable time. >> So how do we solve that? Walking in spacesuits all day isn't that much fun. > >Exploration is seldom a lot of fun. I can't think of anyway to solve the >biohazard problem other than space suits, or staying in the ship and using >tele-operated robots. Exploration isn't much fun? What else drives people to such far places... >> The place I live is save, even if all the polar ice melts away. :) (33 >> metres above sealevel) >> What you write may be true, but is not complete, we have found cures for >> many diseases and our understanding gets better all the time. In 50 years >> this will only be better and more advanced. > >True, but its taken us centuries to get this far in our medical skills. We >won't have centuries, or even decades, to learn how to fight the alien >bio-hazards. In all these centuries we accumulated these skills, a lot of these skills can be used as general solutions and not as specific solutions. Often if a cure for one disease is found, a lot of similar diseases are cured too. It is not the specific case that takes decades to develop but the general solution. So since we want to know what is out there, we will study those creatures that have the potential to make us ill. Probably that is enough to find a specific cure. >>>So if we want to continue the SD project we should make it 2140 instead of >>>2040. >> >> Very possibly > >If we shove the calendar to 2140 from 2050, we'ld have nothing to base it on. > We would have to debate what type of physics, much less engineering we could >assume. So, what should we do? The main problem is the source of power that we are allowed to use. So before we start discussing how the engine looks, we should know what techniques we can use and in what AMOUNT. Just saying that money doesn't matter isn't enough, money means manpower. Whatever the futere will bring, the amount of capable manpower will be limited. >We obviously arn't going to NEED to go to another star system, and certainly >we've never come up with a reason anyone would want to stay in this other >starsystem. (Trade obviously isn't practical with the technology we're >discusing.) But that doesn't meen people wouldn't be interested in finding >out what is there. It could be a goal for better survival of the human species. Two so separate worlds are unlikely to become extinct at the same time. The reason for people to stay in such a desolated area is quite obvious, to start a new or other life. Think of the people that went to Australia the last 50 years (not the prisoners), a lot of them wanted new chances. Chances they could not realize at their previous home. My guess is that there are millions of people that want to get away from their present life and start somewhere else. Timothy From popserver Sun Dec 31 11:43:39 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["906" "Sun" "31" "December" "1995" "03:38:27" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "19" "Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: stevev@tzadkiel.efn.org Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (stevev@tzadkiel.efn.org [198.68.17.19]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id DAA03559; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 03:37:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA19347; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 03:38:27 -0800 Message-Id: <199512311138.DAA19347@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <199512302106.AA16549@student.utwente.nl> References: <199512302106.AA16549@student.utwente.nl> From: Steve VanDevender To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com Subject: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 03:38:27 -0800 This page is _so cool_ that I've stayed up until 3:30 am looking at it: http://www.fourmilab.ch/cship/cship.html Although his starship design is simplistic and intended more for expository purposes than as a completely realistic design, it does have some interesting features I haven't seen us discuss before. In particular he discusses the need for streamlining (!) for a ship that travels at high relativistic speeds. In essence it's a self-powered ship fueled by antimatter. The coolest part, though, is a couple of MPEGs that show trips through his imaginary "lattice galaxy" at relativistic speeds. This is exactly the kind of thing I want to do with my starship simulation program (still completely embryonic at this point), but with a database of real stars in the Solar neighborhood. View the MPEGs, and then we can talk about why it looks like you're flying backwards at the start of a trip. From popserver Wed Nov 29 07:08:42 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5582" "Tue" "28" "November" "1995" "23:07:53" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "109" "Re: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea." "^From:" "KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com" "KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com" "11" nil nil nil nil] nil) Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA05662; Tue, 28 Nov 95 23:04:17 PST Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) id XAA00455; Tue, 28 Nov 1995 23:07:53 -0800 Message-Id: <199511290707.XAA00455@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <951128203350_119181713@emout06.mail.aol.com> References: <951128203350_119181713@emout06.mail.aol.com> X-UIDL: 817628697.000 From: Steve VanDevender To: KellySt@aol.com Cc: stevev@efn.org, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Summarry of the momentum wars and idea. Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 23:07:53 -0800 KellySt@aol.com writes: > >> Besides not treating momentum as a vector quantity, people are > >> making the mistake of thinking that lateral loading of the sail > >> assembly is a magical sink for momentum or energy. The error is > >> in thinking that stress on a static structure absorbs energy or > >> momentum continuously over time. If the sail does not move > >> relative to the ship, then it cannot absorb or dissipate momentum > >> separately from the ship. It cannot absorb momentum if it does > >> not move, because momentum means motion. ---- > > (??!) > Thats like the old argument that if a tractor is pushing against a wall its > doing no work, since the wall isn't accelerated. The sail is getting a > thrust that is perpendicular to the surface of reflection. If you want to > describe the portion of the thrust that isn't accelerating the ship as > invalid, enjoy. The tractor is dissipating energy because it contains moving parts in its engine and drive train that keep moving even though the tractor chassis and the wall are not. And it did do some amount of work compressing itself against the wall; when the engine is turned off, the tractor will roll away from the wall. Lean a board against the wall. Does it dissipate energy because it can't move the wall? Lean a heavy iron bar against the wall. Does it dissipate more energy than the board? Are the bricks at the bottom of the wall permanently warmer than the bricks at the top because they are under compression? These are all what I mean by static stress. Static stress does not dissipate energy. Varying stress dissipates energy; the tractor engine powered by intermittent gasoline explosions produces vibration and heat as it pushes the tractor against the wall; the tractor vibrating against the wall even heats the wall. On the other hand, the board or the iron bar, or the bricks at the bottom of the wall, do not dissipate energy. If you think they do, tell me where it comes from. You can't claim that gravity is continuously pumping energy into the objects; you can't gain or lose energy if you don't move up or down in a gravity field. > But when you start to mutter things like: > >> ---as long as the sail does not fall apart or the support > >> members do not break, no more energy is dissipated into > >> loading of the sail structure. > > We have a problem. > > A considerable amount of energy will be continuously loaded and (hopefully) > disapated by the sail cross webbing. If we don't consider it, and make sure > the structure can disapate it, the cross cables will melt under the energy > they have to disapate under this lateral thrust load. The structure will dissipate energy if the photon beam varies periodically with time, as the up-and-down variations will induce vibration in the structure. This is certainly a real engineering problem that would have to be considered in a real ship. My intention was to prove that Kevin's parasail design couldn't absorb photons without absorbing their momentum. This principle is still true even if the parasail isn't exposed to a completely steady, unvarying photon flux. The members of the support structure don't "dissipate" or "absorb" forward momentum because they are under sideways load. You seem to have a real misunderstanding of the difference between work and potential. When you put a structure under tension or compression, you do change its energy, ONCE, when you slightly pull apart or scrunch together all of the atomic bonds in the object; you have put potential energy into the object. As long as the forces on the structure do not change, no further energy flows in or out of it; it does not continue to dissipate energy with time. Your house does not radiate heat because it is in a gravity field. The cornerstone of the Empire State Building is not hot because it is holding up the weight of the building. The Earth is not losing energy to everything that its gravity holds to the ground. Just as I could build a reactionless drive from Kevin's parasail, if I play by your rules I can build a perpetual motion machine from a piece of metal in a vise; all I have to do is extract the energy that you claim it will continually radiate for as long as it is in the vise. The reason that real engineering structures dissipate energy is that there is rarely such a thing as pure static stress. Structures endure varying loads -- cars drive over bridges, the Empire State Building sways in the wind and absorbs millions of footsteps. The cornerstone of the Empire State Building isn't warmer because it's under compression; it's warmer because it dissipates energy from swaying and vibration. > One very consistent problem in LIT over the last year has been > a very limited interest in the engineering realities of a > situation, and to much fondness for endless equation wars. These are not equation wars; as this message shows, you don't always have to use math to talk about physics. We are talking about very real physics concepts, and I'm afraid you are the one who has a few important ones wrong. Before we can do the detailed engineering for a starship, we need to understand what physical constraints it will be under. Even the best engineering cannot violate the laws of physics. If we are engaged in "equation wars", it is because we are trying to figure out the limits of what is possible before we do detailed design work based on faulty assumptions. This is the most fundamental interest in engineering realities you could want. From popserver Wed Dec 27 06:39:47 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["631" "Tue" "26" "December" "1995" "21:45:58" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "15" "RE: RE: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" "David@InterWorld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, KellySt@aol.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, stevev@efn.org, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" "David Levine, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, 'KellySt@aol.com', rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, stevev@efn.org, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" "12" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: stevev@tzadkiel.efn.org Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (stevev@tzadkiel.efn.org [198.68.17.19]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.2/8.7.2) with ESMTP id WAA15692; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 22:32:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA04686; Tue, 26 Dec 1995 21:45:58 -0800 Message-Id: <199512270545.VAA04686@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: References: From: Steve VanDevender To: David Levine Cc: "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" , "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" , "'KellySt@aol.com'" , "rddesign@wolfenet.com" , "RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com" , "stevev@efn.org" , "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" , "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" Subject: RE: RE: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 21:45:58 -0800 David Levine writes: > Oh, as for my previous post - I do apologize - I've checked my archives > and have also received some CCs from Steve and a few from Ric > (plus one from Zenon). I have pretty much been following up to whatever recipient list is attached to whatever post I'm commenting on. I noticed your name was on some of the messages we've been passing around. I've saved copies of most of the messages sent to me since I started receiving them. If you are interested I could arrange to get that mail folder to you. It's a bummer to hear about SunSITE; I had been depending on it as a Linux software archive too. From popserver Mon Jan 1 18:58:15 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1070" "Mon" "1" "January" "1996" "11:02:36" "-0800" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" nil "28" "Happy New Year" "^From:" "KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" "KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: rddesign@wolfenet.com Received: from wolfe.net (mail1.wolfe.net [204.157.98.11]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id KAA25449 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 10:56:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from sea-ts2-p17.wolfenet.com (sea-ts2-p17.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.135]) by wolfe.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id LAA16684; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 11:02:36 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199601011902.LAA16684@wolfe.net> X-Sender: rddesign@gonzo.wolfenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: rddesign@wolfenet.com To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Subject: Happy New Year Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 11:02:36 -0800 (PST) Happy New Year everyone!! Well, I have done the first of my new years projects. I created a mailing group for this group. No more cutting and pasting for this guy in the new year. Well, what do we want to get completed this year? Mission Plans were few. the mission still needs to be defined. Engins!! Boy, is that a topic. I don't know the physics of all of this but it seems that we just don't have the technology yet to get what we need for this project. I hope I'm wrong, soon. Without knowing the mission or propulsion, the size of the ship isn't known. Hab spaces are seem to be dependent on the first two. Crew size is determined by ship and habitat sizes. The means of getting to TC or where ever it is we decide to go does seem to revolve around a power plant though. The question, to me, is, if we can't do it yet, why not pick a more realistic and closer goal that we could expect to acchive by 2040 or 2050. The above opinions are my own and do not reflect those of the management. :-) Ric The best Beads come from RD Designs. Ric & Denisse Hedman From popserver Tue Jan 2 03:16:58 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1692" "Tue" "2" "January" "1996" "00:36:50" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "39" "Re: Happy New Year" "^From:" "KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com" "KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id PAA05399 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 15:35:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA12594 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 2 Jan 1996 00:36:45 +0100 Message-Id: <199601012336.AA12594@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com Subject: Re: Happy New Year Date: Tue, 02 Jan 1996 00:36:50 +0100 >Well, I have done the first of my new years projects. I created a mailing >group for this group. No more cutting and pasting for this guy in the new year. Didn't you do that before? How for heaven sake have you been archieving 140 letters? >Engins!! Boy, is that a topic. I don't know the physics of all of this but >it seems that we just don't have the technology yet to get what we need for >this project. I hope I'm wrong, soon. The problem is the amount of power needed, no technology of today except for H-boms can give us that power easely. >Without knowing the mission or propulsion, the size of the ship isn't known. >Hab spaces are seem to be dependent on the first two. If we want to go to TC, habsize doesn't depend on the kind of propulsion, we just NEEDS space to live and work in. Every extra kilogram that is not needed should be eliminated regardless of the type of engine. >The means of getting to TC or where ever it is we decide to go does seem to >revolve around a power plant though. The question, to me, is, if we can't do >it yet, why not pick a more realistic and closer goal that we could expect >to acchive by 2040 or 2050. What about a mission to Venus? The high temperatures would make it a nice challenge. Or the outer regions of our solar system, doing it as fast as possible, ie. using 1g all the time. The trip would take about 3 weeks. We could of course stay on Earth and look for a way to easely go to the bottom of the oceans. A submarine that isn't limited by 300 or 1000 metres of depth. >The best Beads come from RD Designs. Ric, are these Beads the beads on a cord? (I wondered about this since the first time I read your signature) Timothy From popserver Tue Jan 2 07:07:12 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1323" "Mon" "1" "January" "1996" "23:04:45" "-0800" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" nil "36" "Re: Happy New Year" "^From:" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" "Timothy van der Linden, KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: rddesign@wolfenet.com Received: from wolfe.net (mail1.wolfe.net [204.157.98.11]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id XAA21897 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 23:05:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from sea-ts2-p41.wolfenet.com (sea-ts2-p41.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.159]) by wolfe.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id XAA14744; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 23:04:45 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199601020704.XAA14744@wolfe.net> X-Sender: rddesign@gonzo.wolfenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: rddesign@wolfenet.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Subject: Re: Happy New Year Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 23:04:45 -0800 (PST) >>Well, I have done the first of my new years projects. I created a mailing >>group for this group. No more cutting and pasting for this guy in the new year. > >Didn't you do that before? How for heaven sake have you been archieving 140 >letters? What I ment was I created a "mailing list" under one heading. (LIT). It contains everyone's names who has been active in this e-mail newsletter. >What about a mission to Venus? The high temperatures would make it a nice >challenge. >Or the outer regions of our solar system, doing it as fast as possible, ie. >using 1g all the time. The trip would take about 3 weeks. >We could of course stay on Earth and look for a way to easely go to the >bottom of the oceans. A submarine that isn't limited by 300 or 1000 metres >of depth. 3 weeks? what speed would you be traveling at? I don't have the real figure but aren't our present space craft traveling at 10's of thousands of miles a minute? > >>The best Beads come from RD Designs. > >Ric, are these Beads the beads on a cord? (I wondered about this since the >first time I read your signature) I keep forgetting to turn off that darn thing. We seel strings of beads as well as bags of beads. Do you have an interest? I could get you some prices if you like. Ric The best Beads come from RD Designs. Ric & Denisse Hedman From popserver Tue Jan 2 09:34:23 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["10557" "Tue" "2" "January" "1996" "01:30:13" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" "<199601020930.BAA25497@tzadkiel.efn.org>" "231" "Re: C-ship" "^From:" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org" "Timothy van der Linden, stevev@efn.org" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: stevev@tzadkiel.efn.org Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (stevev@tzadkiel.efn.org [198.68.17.19]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id BAA25840; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 01:29:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA25497; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 01:30:13 -0800 Message-Id: <199601020930.BAA25497@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <199601012207.AA10231@student.utwente.nl> References: <199601012207.AA10231@student.utwente.nl> From: Steve VanDevender To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Cc: stevev@efn.org Subject: Re: C-ship Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 01:30:13 -0800 Timothy van der Linden writes: > >I am still trying to get enough understanding of special > >relativity theory to make sure I get things right. I also want > >to work out more of the mathematical techniques I will use. > > Once that is ready, writing the simulator is easy ;) Yes, and that's why I've spent all my time on that so far, with a relatively brief digression into astrophysics to develop a simple but adequate model of starlight and a 3-d star database from catalogs. > >The basic structure of the simulation will be to model worldlines > >for all objects, and compute visibility for display by tracing > >light-like worldlines from a observer point to the other > >worldlines in the simulation in some common frame, then transform > >apparent positions of these objects in the common frame into the > >frame of the observer. > > Indeed, but for this you need to have a history of all the objects positions. > As long as they move linear or linear accelerated that's not so difficult > because you can use a function. But as soon as the behaviour gets less > simple you may need large arrays and with it come less precise calculations. > Also it would be nice to see the time at every point of the several objects > (for example by halting the simulation and clicking with the mouse). I realize that a motion history is necessary. In fact, the fundamental information associated with a typical object will be a worldline, consisting of straight and accelerated segments. The worldline represents the full motion history of an object, so in theory you could go to any point in spacetime in any frame and get a view of the universe by tracing intersections to the worldlines of all the other objects, then transforming those displacements into the view frame. I recognize the problem of dealing with more complicated types of motion. I at least want to work out a reasonable method of handling orbital motion so you can see what it looks like to boost into or out of a solar system. > >I think most of the relativistic effects, particularly things > >like aberration and rotation induced by moving at relativistic > >speed, can come out of fundamental behavior of the simulation > >rather than having to be explicitly calculated in each case. > >Aberration is simply a result of the way worldlines of light rays > >Lorentz-transform. > > Rotation will indeed follow from the finite speed of light. But I don't see > how abberation does not show up after the LT of the worldlines. Lightrays > coming form the backside of the observer won't come from the front after the LT. Check out the exercises in Chapter L (that's what they call it) of _Spacetime Physics_. Aberration and the "headlight effect" both follow directly from the geometry of the Lorentz transformation applied to light rays. Remember that a displacement along a worldline of a light ray is different than a plain spacial displacement, so applying a Lorentz transform to it produces a different result. Try out the numbers and I think you'll be surprised. I just ran an example for myself with a Lorentz transform matrix for a boost of 0.9 c in the x direction, and light rays coming from a perpendicular direction (say from along the y or z axes). They really do end up looking like they're in front of you when transformed into the "moving" frame. > >Rather than seeing Lorentz contraction, you > >see object rotation, because you see light from farther parts of > >an object that came from it earlier than light from nearer > >parts. I am trying to prove to myself that all these effects > >will fall out of the simulation model I want to use; so far I am > >pretty confident that I'm on the right track. > > This rotation is only seen if the object moves along you, thus not towards you. Correct. If your optics all take into account the finite speed of light, though, you will not necessarily see the amount of Lorentz contraction you'd think. Farther portions of the object are seen farther back in time when they were farther away. > >>What I asked John Walker was that I would expect curved lines in the SHUTTLE > >>and FLYTHRU movies. I think this curvature would be result of the finite > >>travel speed of light, ie. light from further objects reach the observer > >>later than the light from nearer object. > > > >That effect should happen. > > I've been rethinking this bending of the lines today. And now I think that > the lines should be straight. The lines are only curved if the objects are > moving. If the observer is moving and the objects don't move this bending > will not occur. What do you think after reading this? > > This would mean that you could "easely" recognize moving objects because of > the curvature they have and that still objects don't have. Which is why you should be suspicious. In the case of a constant-velocity observer, it is not possible to decide whether the observer or its surroundings are moving. (An accelerated observer experiences something that the rest of the universe does not; an accelerated observer knows that he is accelerating.) The appearance of curvature for large fast-moving objects will happen. Your arbitrary decision of whether the object is still or moving does not affect the geometry of the light; you can simply apply a Lorentz transform to the situation where the ship is moving and the object is still and get the situation where the ship is still and the object is moving, with the same view from the ship. The appearance of curvature is an effect of the finite speed of light. A snapshot of a scene captures light that arrived at the camera all at the same time. So light from farther portions of an object must have been emitted earlier, when the farther portions were farther back in their motion history, in order to be seen at the same time as light from nearer portions. This effect only becomes pronounced if the object subtends a large part of the field of view and is moving at a large fraction of c. > Yes, you need to know the functions of motion several points of an object. > Let's call one point of the object P[t]. > Call the point of the observer O[t]. > What does the observer see at time T1? The observer sees an object if a > photon that left the object at time T0 reached the position O[T1]. > > So in formula's: > > c*(T1-T0)=Sqrt((O[T1]-P[T0])^2) c is the speed of light > > With this equation one can calculate T0. When knowing that, you can > determine the position of the object at T0, so then you know from what > direction and from how far the photon came. > > Do this for all object-points and you have a created the "see-able" world, > after that you could use the c-ship program. That's the basic approach, although I use 4-vectors to represent time and position in the same object. First, for a U = [ u0 u1 u2 u3 ] and V = [ v0 v1 v2 v3 ], U|V = u0*v0 - u1*v1 - u2*v2 - u3*v3 (Lorentz inner product), and U^2 = U|U. U^2 is the square of the spacetime interval of a displacement represented by U. Velocities are neatly represented by vectors V where V^2 = 1; the components of the vector can be interpreted as displacements in frame coordinates per unit object time. Convert a frame velocity V = [ 1 v1 v2 v3 ] into a unit vector by dividing all components by sqrt(V^2). If you are at a point S = [ t x y z ], and you want to view an object whose worldline is described by P(t') = P0 + V * t' = [ t0 x0 y0 z0 ] + [ v0 v1 v2 v3 ] * t', then the path of a light ray between S and P satisfies the equation (S - P(t'))^2 = 0, The solution is: t' = ((S - P0)|V - sqrt(((S - P0)|V)^2 - (S - P0)^2 * V^2)) / V^2 This is pretty much simple application of the quadratic formula, choosing the smallest solution to get the t' that corresponds to light leaving the object at an earlier time than the observer's. Things are substantially more complicated when dealing with accelerated worldlines. I've got a preliminary solution stated in similar terms as the above discussion; perhaps you'd like to check my math :-). You are at the point S = [ t x y z ] attempting to view an object whose coordinates are P(t') = 1/a^2 * [ a * sinh(a * t') ax * (cosh(a * t') - 1) ay * (cosh(a * t') - 1) az * (cosh(a * t') - 1) ] where the acceleration is represented by A = [ 0 ax ay az ] (in the object local frame) and a = sqrt(ax^2 + ay^2 + az^2) (the magnitude of the acceleration). So again, we want to solve the equation (S - P(t'))^2 = 0. Of course, the components of P(t') are much more complicated. I won't bore you with the full derivation, other than to note that it becomes easier to isolate t' by writing the sinh and cosh terms in terms of their definitions using exp (e^x). Eventually, you get: exp(a * t')^2 * (1 - A|S - a * t') + exp(a * t') * (a^2 * S^2 - 2 * (1 - A|S)) + (1 - A|S + a * t') = 0 It's convenient to make some substitutions for common subexpressions: k = 1 - A|S p = k - a * t' q = a^2 * S^2 - 2 * k r = k + a * t' So then applying the quadratic formula and isolating t' gives: t' = 1/a * ln((-q - sqrt(q^2 - 4 * p * r)) / (2 * p)) I have yet to program this expression into my calculator and play with some solutions to see if they have the predicted results. In particular, there should be regions of spacetime where you cannot see the accelerated object (see Chapter 6 of _Gravitation_). You will also note that this is a somewhat less general statement of the problem; it uses a frame in which the accelerated object was at rest at the origin of the frame. For a general solution you would need to transform the view point into the appropriate frame, apply this solution, and transform it back out afterwards. > >Now that I think about it, simple extensions to POVray for > >modeling relativistic effects probably wouldn't work well, > >because you really have to raytrace in four dimensions to > >properly model them. > > Indeed, although it is easy to calculate the length of the lightray, it is > much more difficult to know where all object where in the past. For the purposes of the guy's C-ship simulation he would have to model acceleration, at least, which would substantially complicate things. My plan for my simulation will be to develop some heuristics to find the right worldline segment to which to apply the analytic solutions above, and possibly some other heuristics to discard old pieces of worldlines that are no longer visible to other important simulation objects. From popserver Tue Jan 2 10:16:55 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1770" "Tue" "2" "January" "1996" "02:14:26" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "60" "Re: C-ship" "^From:" "stevev@efn.org, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" "Steve VanDevender, Timothy van der Linden" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: stevev@tzadkiel.efn.org Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (stevev@tzadkiel.efn.org [198.68.17.19]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id CAA26814; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 02:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA25641; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 02:14:26 -0800 Message-Id: <199601021014.CAA25641@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <199601020930.BAA25497@tzadkiel.efn.org> References: <199601012207.AA10231@student.utwente.nl> <199601020930.BAA25497@tzadkiel.efn.org> From: Steve VanDevender To: Steve VanDevender Cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Subject: Re: C-ship Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 02:14:26 -0800 Steve VanDevender writes: > Things are substantially more complicated when dealing with > accelerated worldlines. I've got a preliminary solution stated > in similar terms as the above discussion; perhaps you'd like to > check my math :-). > > You are at the point S = [ t x y z ] attempting to view an object > whose coordinates are P(t') = > > 1/a^2 * [ a * sinh(a * t') > ax * (cosh(a * t') - 1) > ay * (cosh(a * t') - 1) > az * (cosh(a * t') - 1) ] > > where the acceleration is represented by A = [ 0 ax ay az ] (in > the object local frame) and a = sqrt(ax^2 + ay^2 + az^2) (the > magnitude of the acceleration). > > So again, we want to solve the equation (S - P(t'))^2 = 0. Of > course, the components of P(t') are much more complicated. I > won't bore you with the full derivation, other than to note that > it becomes easier to isolate t' by writing the sinh and cosh > terms in terms of their definitions using exp (e^x). > > Eventually, you get: > > exp(a * t')^2 * (1 - A|S - a * t') + > exp(a * t') * (a^2 * S^2 - 2 * (1 - A|S)) + > (1 - A|S + a * t') > = 0 Sigh. That should actually be: exp(a * t')^2 * (1 - A|S - a * t) + exp(a * t') * (a^2 * S^2 - 2 * (1 - A|S)) + (1 - A|S + a * t) = 0 I wrote t' rather than the t component of S in a couple wrong places. > It's convenient to make some substitutions for common > subexpressions: > > k = 1 - A|S > p = k - a * t' > q = a^2 * S^2 - 2 * k > r = k + a * t' And these should be p = k - a * t q = a^2 * S^2 - 2 * k r = k + a * t > So then applying the quadratic formula and isolating t' gives: > > t' = 1/a * ln((-q - sqrt(q^2 - 4 * p * r)) / (2 * p)) Fortunately I still copied that correctly. From popserver Tue Jan 2 18:01:55 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["498" "Tue" "2" "January" "1996" "06:41:54" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "16" "New Year Resolutions" "^From:" "rddesign@wolfenet.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com" "rddesign@wolfenet.com, Timothy van der Linden, KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id EAA29533 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 04:41:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Tue, 2 Jan 96 06:41:55 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199601020704.XAA14744@wolfe.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: rddesign@wolfenet.com cc: Timothy van der Linden , KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com Subject: New Year Resolutions Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 06:41:54 -0600 (CST) This year (1996) I resolve to: 1) to find a physically consistent means to slow down the Asimov from lightspeed, assuming that all the energy we want can be beamed from Sol. 2) to find a physically consistent means to beam that energy. 3) to buy and read "spacetime physics" note, "physically consistent" means that it satisfies all know physical laws, esp. conservation of momentum and energy Kevin PS Happy New Year Guys! May it be a healthy and productive one in all your pursuits. From popserver Tue Jan 2 18:28:20 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1544" "Tue" "2" "January" "1996" "19:27:10" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "41" "Re: Happy New Year" "^From:" "KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com" "KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id KAA14593 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 10:26:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA00685 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:27:05 +0100 Message-Id: <199601021827.AA00685@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com Subject: Re: Happy New Year Date: Tue, 02 Jan 1996 19:27:10 +0100 ReplyTo: Ric >>What about a mission to Venus? The high temperatures would make it a nice >>challenge. >>Or the outer regions of our solar system, doing it as fast as possible, ie. >>using 1g all the time. The trip would take about 3 weeks. >>We could of course stay on Earth and look for a way to easely go to the >>bottom of the oceans. A submarine that isn't limited by 300 or 1000 metres >>of depth. > >3 weeks? what speed would you be traveling at? I don't have the real figure >but aren't our present space craft traveling at 10's of thousands of miles a >minute? The distance to Pluto is about 6E12 metres, you need half that distance to accelerate and the other half to decelerate. x = 0.5 g t^2 --> t = Sqrt(2x/g) = Sqrt(6E12/9.8) = 7.8E5 seconds = 9 days So it takes 9 days to accelerate and 9 to decelerate. Ok, how fast are we going after accelerating: 7.8E5 * 9.8 = 7.7E6 m/s = 2.1E6 km/h = 1.3E6 mph That is 0.026c and it will give us a gamma of 1.0033 The total trip will take about 5.5 minutes less due to the relativistic effects. >>>The best Beads come from RD Designs. >> >>Ric, are these Beads the beads on a cord? (I wondered about this since the >>first time I read your signature) > >I keep forgetting to turn off that darn thing. We seel strings of beads as >well as bags of beads. Do you have an interest? I could get you some prices >if you like. No, that won't be necessary, I wouldn't have a purpose for them. >Ric >The best Beads come from RD Designs. >Ric & Denisse Hedman There you did it again :) Timothy From popserver Thu Jan 4 03:09:44 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["960" "Wed" "3" "January" "1996" "21:00:38" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" "<960103205747_105827744@emout06.mail.aol.com>" "26" "Re: Happy New Year" "^From:" "rddesign@wolfenet.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com" "rddesign@wolfenet.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com (emout06.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.43]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id SAA27165 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 18:00:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA18508; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 21:00:38 -0500 Message-ID: <960103205747_105827744@emout06.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: rddesign@wolfenet.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl cc: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Happy New Year Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 21:00:38 -0500 >What about a mission to Venus? The high temperatures would make it a nice >challenge. >Or the outer regions of our solar system, doing it as fast as possible, ie. >using 1g all the time. The trip would take about 3 weeks. >We could of course stay on Earth and look for a way to easely go to the >bottom of the oceans. A submarine that isn't limited by 300 or 1000 metres >of depth. >> 3 weeks? what speed would you be traveling at? I don't >> have the real figure but aren't our present space craft >> traveling at 10's of thousands of miles a minute? More like 20 - 30 thousand MPH. Far too slow to cover solar systems distences quickly. But we do know of much better systems. We could work on a Alpha Centuri flight. Thats closer to our capacity. Oh, as far as cabin space. Its going to need to be big because of the need for a large diameter centrafuge, and because the crew will need a lot of room to keep from going stire crazy! Kelly Kelly From popserver Thu Jan 4 03:09:45 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["10053" "Wed" "3" "January" "1996" "21:00:18" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" "<960103205728_105827437@emout06.mail.aol.com>" "224" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com (emout06.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.43]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id SAA27273 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 18:01:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA18072; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 21:00:18 -0500 Message-ID: <960103205728_105827437@emout06.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 21:00:18 -0500 Tim thanks for forwarding the missing letter. Re: Timothy replies to Kelly: > > >>You can't assume that more money is used for this, because I could assume > >>that more money is used for research for anti-matter containment and > >>creation. Both fusion and anti-matter are areas where little is known > >>about. > > > >I wasn't refering to LIT assumptions, only real world. But, if we are to > >assume a large scale space infastructure. I guess we can assume it was worth > >there while to develope fusion systems. > > Indeed, but so would anti-matter systems after a while. Fusion is an extreamly usefull general purpose technology. Anti-matter is far less so, and far more dangerous on the scale we would need. I wouldn't expect a lot of anti-mater ships in 50 years. > >>Doing research on a planet or building industries is still much more > >>interesting than flying back to Earth. And if it isn't more intersting, then > >>research will gives more fruits for the money than flying back would do. > > > >Building industries? I don't follow. > > For some kind of colonization. Even if it is used as "refresh" point for > future missions to other solarsystems, it needs some form of > selfsufficiency. Therefor it needs "farms" and buildings, you can't make > them all by hand, so you need some form of small industry. Oh, that would be beyond the resources and tech of the project. Also it seem a waste of time. Sort of novelty project for the record books. With no practical reason to stay perminently there the bases would be prefab ghost towns. Future missions to other solar systems would have to be based out of dynamic, growing, large scale, civilizations. Not out of a staging camp in the middle of nowhere. > >Research I can understand, but obviously they can't do that forever. > > Why not, there will be plenty to figure out. Forever? Do you expect earth to keep funding these people in this base forever? With continuous supply flights from sol to keep them going? We couldn't even keep the moon program going for more than a few months after it planted its flag. > >Nor do I expect to settle for living out the rest of their lives in the hab > >deck. > > Why don't you expect them to do that? I still don't see that as suicide, > they can live perfectly healthy lives. Thats like condeming somone to spend the rest of their lives in an apartment/shoping mall! Good researchers will want to retire or go on to other projects. Not sit around in a worn out ship, in the middle of nowhere, with nothing to do. > >I can't see corporations droping probably hundreds of billions of dollars on > >a project like this. It absolutly would have no short term benifit (decades > >at least) and advertizing would supply this kind of money. > > One Japanese building company is seriously thinking about how it could build > on the moon. Now it may be a sign of advancement(=adverticement) but in 20 > years they may be the first(=money) to build there. > Indeed one company would not have enough money, but one company alone could > not build a city, so several companies will take their share. > And after all, the government's money is in fact the money of the companies. Japanise think big (and talk big), but seldom can carry out those big plans. Companise are in busness to make money for people. If they don't do that, they are taking their investors money under false pretenses. Which can get their executives fired or jailed. Droping money on a scale like this for no reasone other than as a charity project for prospace people would be criminal mis-appropriation, and comercial suicide. Assuming they weren't thrown in jail, the company would be so weak another pragmatic company could easily take it over. > >International projects ARE A DISSASTER!! I was in the International Space > >Station Freedom Program, and can assure you it convinced about everybody that > >international cost everyone far more, slowed the program WAY down, and > >generally made it impossible. If a project like this requirers international > >particip[ation, it will be a write off. > > May be, but a single country couldn't do it either. I don't know all about > problems about Freedom, but wasn't NASA the main "sponsor"? A single country could have done it far cheaper and quicker then all combined. > Such a project would be a challenge for mankind, it would not ALLOW us to > work together, it would INSIST us working together. Maybe today such a > project will not work, but countries are aligning. I know this sound > biblical: "When all sheep listen to one herdsman...", but I think it's > better than that: "The sum of the parts is much more than the parts themselves". Sorry, no. In large projects like this the sum of the parts is the lowest common denominator of everyone. It becoming a big issue in the U.S. The more people you get on a project, the less energy and inovation is avalible. Things get bogged down, lost in committe misunderstanding, ecetera. Costs can go up to hundreds of times what a small tight group could do it for. Thats one of the reasons that over the last decade or two, NASA has been incapable of trying, or developing, cutting edge technologies or programs. > >> So how do we solve that? Walking in spacesuits all day isn't that much fun. > > > >Exploration is seldom a lot of fun. I can't think of anyway to solve the > >biohazard problem other than space suits, or staying in the ship and using > >tele-operated robots. > > Exploration isn't much fun? What else drives people to such far places... Curiosity, greed, a chalenge, desire for fame or acomplishment. Exploration is generally horiobly uncomfortable and life threatening. But its very chalenging, and its atractive to know your one of the few to ever do something, know something, etc... Even if you know its killing you. Like an anthro professor my wife had. He loved studying aborigional tribes in the backwaters of the Amazon, but he frely admitted everyone who does it expect that they've paid with decades off their life expectancy. A ground team to a worl with a eath like bioshpere could expect to losemost of the team over a couple of months even inside the biosuits. > >> The place I live is save, even if all the polar ice melts away. :) (33 > >> metres above sealevel) > >> What you write may be true, but is not complete, we have found cures for > >> many diseases and our understanding gets better all the time. In 50 years > >> this will only be better and more advanced. > > > >True, but its taken us centuries to get this far in our medical skills. We > >won't have centuries, or even decades, to learn how to fight the alien > >bio-hazards. > > In all these centuries we accumulated these skills, a lot of these skills > can be used as general solutions and not as specific solutions. Often if a > cure for one disease is found, a lot of similar diseases are cured too. > It is not the specific case that takes decades to develop but the general > solution. So since we want to know what is out there, we will study those > creatures that have the potential to make us ill. Probably that is enough to > find a specific cure. Since your dealing with radically differnt life forms. Its unlikely the old rules, or solutions, would hold. We mostly will be starting from scratch. After all, we have no experience with alien biospheres. > >>>So if we want to continue the SD project we should make it 2140 instead of > >>>2040. > >> > >> Very possibly > > > >If we shove the calendar to 2140 from 2050, we'ld have nothing to base it on. > > We would have to debate what type of physics, much less engineering we could > >assume. > > So, what should we do? The main problem is the source of power that we are > allowed to use. So before we start discussing how the engine looks, we > should know what techniques we can use and in what AMOUNT. -- We're in a serous bind. The tech we can expect in 50 years isn't enough for a T.C. flight. Or all but the most modest interstellar flights. NOr would they be that likely to be interested in footing a huge program. Yet if we back up the date by a hundred years we could be much more confident that they could do it, and do it affordably, but we wouldn't have any credible idea how! > >We obviously arn't going to NEED to go to another star system, and certainly > >we've never come up with a reason anyone would want to stay in this other > >starsystem. (Trade obviously isn't practical with the technology we're > >discusing.) But that doesn't meen people wouldn't be interested in finding > >out what is there. > > It could be a goal for better survival of the human species. Two > so separate worlds are unlikely to become extinct at the same time. Your not talking about two planets. Your talking about earth, a fleet of colony platforms in sol and an outpost in another star. And the outpost is totally dependand on sol. Put another way. Are we that likely to be so afraid of human extinction, that we'll rush to do such a project in 50 years? > The reason for people to stay in such a desolated area is quite obvious, to > start a new or other life. Think of the people that went to Australia the > last 50 years (not the prisoners), a lot of them wanted new chances. Chances > they could not realize at their previous home. My guess is that there are > millions of people that want to get away from their present life and start > somewhere else. Oh certainly. The united states gets several million of them a year! But, another star doesn't offer much opportunity. It isolated, expensive, no markets to go to, few resorces that you can get at. No home world to go to on vacation to. Your very dependand on the supply line from Sol, and their for far less independant than you would be in a colony in Sol. Also, the kind of people we would send on such a ship. Would be the ellete that would have a lot of opportunity back home. The people who want a new start, wouldn't be sent on the ship. Kelly From popserver Thu Jan 4 03:20:12 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["343" "Wed" "3" "January" "1996" "19:17:15" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "7" "Re: Happy New Year" "^From:" "KellySt@aol.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com" "KellySt@aol.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: stevev@tzadkiel.efn.org Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (stevev@tzadkiel.efn.org [198.68.17.19]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id TAA01802; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 19:16:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA31203; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 19:17:15 -0800 Message-Id: <199601040317.TAA31203@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <960103205747_105827744@emout06.mail.aol.com> References: <960103205747_105827744@emout06.mail.aol.com> From: Steve VanDevender To: KellySt@aol.com Cc: rddesign@wolfenet.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Happy New Year Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 19:17:15 -0800 KellySt@aol.com writes: > We could work on a Alpha Centuri flight. Thats closer to our capacity. Alpha Centauri is 4.3 lyr away. Tau Ceti is 10 lyr away. This is barely any difference as far as interstellar travel goes. If you can get to Alpha Centauri effectively, you can get to Tau Ceti with no more than about twice the travel time. From popserver Thu Jan 4 03:20:13 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["512" "Wed" "3" "January" "1996" "19:19:22" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "10" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" "KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com" "KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: stevev@tzadkiel.efn.org Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (stevev@tzadkiel.efn.org [198.68.17.19]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id TAA01934; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 19:18:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA31210; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 19:19:22 -0800 Message-Id: <199601040319.TAA31210@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <960103205728_105827437@emout06.mail.aol.com> References: <960103205728_105827437@emout06.mail.aol.com> From: Steve VanDevender To: KellySt@aol.com Cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 19:19:22 -0800 KellySt@aol.com writes: > Fusion is an extreamly usefull general purpose technology. Anti-matter is > far less so, and far more dangerous on the scale we would need. I wouldn't > expect a lot of anti-mater ships in 50 years. Perhaps not, but the only fuel that you can use to reach high relativistic speeds with a ship that carries its own fuel is antimatter. A fusion-powered ship carrying its own fuel can't reach high relativistic speeds without fuel-to-payload ratios of 10^6 or higher (much higher). From popserver Fri Jan 5 01:46:10 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["710" "Thu" "4" "January" "1996" "17:50:35" "-0800" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" nil "21" "Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" "KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" "KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: rddesign@wolfenet.com Received: from wolfe.net (mail1.wolfe.net [204.157.98.11]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id RAA18283 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:43:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from sea-ts1-p61.wolfenet.com (sea-ts1-p61.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.115]) by wolfe.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id RAA18479; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:50:35 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199601050150.RAA18479@wolfe.net> X-Sender: rddesign@gonzo.wolfenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: rddesign@wolfenet.com To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Subject: Engineering Newsletter Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:50:35 -0800 (PST) So what are we going to do? Our technology isn't quite there yet for the propulsion plant. I'm sure we could build the rest of the ship no problem. The people we would like to crew the ship and maybe colonize the new system probably won't want to go. We have funding problems. To small and not enought money. To large and you couldn't get folks to decide on when to have dinner much less pay for it. Where do we go? What do we do? Do we start in-system with projects on the moon and Mars and build to the larger prospect of inter-steller flight? Alpha Centauri is half the distance. Can we make it at half the speed? Ric the trouble maker :-) The best Beads come from RD Designs. Ric & Denisse Hedman From popserver Fri Jan 5 18:02:51 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["555" "Thu" "5" "January" "1995" "10:55:20" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "14" "Re: Happy New Year" "^From:" "KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com" "KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id BAA14323 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 01:54:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA15120 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 5 Jan 1996 10:55:13 +0100 Message-Id: <199601050955.AA15120@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com Subject: Re: Happy New Year Date: Thu, 05 Jan 1995 10:55:20 +0100 Steve writes: >KellySt@aol.com writes: > > We could work on a Alpha Centuri flight. Thats closer to our capacity. > >Alpha Centauri is 4.3 lyr away. Tau Ceti is 10 lyr away. This >is barely any difference as far as interstellar travel goes. If >you can get to Alpha Centauri effectively, you can get to Tau >Ceti with no more than about twice the travel time. It depends, if you can just reach AC with a fusion engine in 15 years, then a round trip to TC would take at least 60 years. Not many would survive that trip simply because of age. Timothy From popserver Fri Jan 5 18:02:57 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["7975" "Thu" "5" "January" "1995" "10:55:25" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "153" "Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" "KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com" "KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id BAA14330 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 01:54:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA15130 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 5 Jan 1996 10:55:19 +0100 Message-Id: <199601050955.AA15130@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com Subject: Engineering Newsletter Date: Thu, 05 Jan 1995 10:55:25 +0100 Timoty replies to Kelly: >Fusion is an extreamly usefull general purpose technology. Anti-matter is >far less so, and far more dangerous on the scale we would need. I wouldn't >expect a lot of anti-mater ships in 50 years. You shouldn't see anti-matter as a fuel, but more as efficient energy storage. Why is anti-matter not a fuel? Because we have to make it. Coparing these two is like comparing a petrol car with an electric car. The energy for an electric car has to come from other fuels. Although the weight advantage with electric cars may not be evident yet there are other advantages. One of the advantages is the independancy of the origin of the fuel source. If it is fusion, fission or solar energy all are easely converted to electric energy which is relative easy to handle. So what car-batteries are for us now, anti-matter will be for fast spacevessels. >Oh, that would be beyond the resources and tech of the project. Also it seem >a waste of time. Sort of novelty project for the record books. With no >practical reason to stay perminently there the bases would be prefab ghost >towns. Future missions to other solar systems would have to be based out of >dynamic, growing, large scale, civilizations. Not out of a staging camp in >the middle of nowhere. If it really is to get a entry in the record books and not much more that would really be a shame of all resources. If people really want to do that, I see the end of humanity near. About growing civilizations, I don't think that western cultures will expand that much. In the US the birthrate is 2.05 per female, in Europe it's about 1.8. So that would mean that population will decrease. The mean reason that Earth's population is still increasing are the less developed countries which have birthrates of 4 to 7. I think that families in developed countries have less children because of the care these children need (financial but also social/tutorial). So this means that we probably never need to go to other places. But if we want to explore and discover new places we may want outposts at many places. So building small colonies would not be that crazy then. These colonies would have two purposes, the outpost and a research function. There would probably many researchers that like to check a foreign planet. >Forever? Do you expect earth to keep funding these people in this base >forever? With continuous supply flights from sol to keep them going? We >couldn't even keep the moon program going for more than a few months after it >planted its flag. After some time they could have build a small colony with all facilities needed to live and work. The energy they need comes from TC itself. So Earth would need funding them, but since they have build a "nice" place in the middle of an interesting place they may be interested to hear something of them. You may argue that building a colony is difficult in an alien environment, but by that time we will have some experience in building things on the Moon or Mars. >> Why don't you expect them to do that? I still don't see that as suicide, >> they can live perfectly healthy lives. > >Thats like condeming somone to spend the rest of their lives in an >apartment/shoping mall! Good researchers will want to retire or go on to >other projects. Not sit around in a worn out ship, in the middle of nowhere, >with nothing to do. Other projects, they have all the choice they could have. Who's going to tell them that they cannot do what they want. The only limits are the ones of themselves. The people going there aren't the people who really want to retire, these are people that are born for exploration and research. (They really exist) My guess is that they wouldn't sit all the time in some ship or compartment, but that they would allow themselves to go to the planets surface (in spacesuits). >Sorry, no. In large projects like this the sum of the parts is the lowest >common denominator of everyone. It becoming a big issue in the U.S. The >more people you get on a project, the less energy and inovation is avalible. > Things get bogged down, lost in committe misunderstanding, ecetera. Costs >can go up to hundreds of times what a small tight group could do it for. And do you know why this happens, because everyone wants his own share and no one is prepared to accept an idea of an other because that will mean a loss of personal profit. >Thats one of the reasons that over the last decade or two, NASA has been >incapable of trying, or developing, cutting edge technologies or programs. Maybe even one country is too big? >> Exploration isn't much fun? What else drives people to such far places... > >Curiosity, greed, a chalenge, desire for fame or acomplishment. Exploration >is generally horiobly uncomfortable and life threatening. But its very >chalenging, and its atractive to know your one of the few to ever do >something, know something, etc... Even if you know its killing you. Sorry, I had a more lossy idea about the word exploration than you did, I meant approximately what you wrote. >Like an anthro professor my wife had. He loved studying aborigional tribes >in the backwaters of the Amazon, but he frely admitted everyone who does it >expect that they've paid with decades off their life expectancy. So that means a return trip won't be necessary. >Since your dealing with radically differnt life forms. Its unlikely the old >rules, or solutions, would hold. We mostly will be starting from scratch. > After all, we have no experience with alien biospheres. I doubt if they are so radically different, all lifeforms have to abide the laws of nature. Maybe some of them have found tricks that have not been found on Earth but that is why we are going there. And still if we know what doesn't work the chances of finding something that does work are enlarged. >We're in a serous bind. The tech we can expect in 50 years isn't enough for >a T.C. flight. Or all but the most modest interstellar flights. NOr would >they be that likely to be interested in footing a huge program. Yet if we >back up the date by a hundred years we could be much more confident that they >could do it, and do it affordably, but we wouldn't have any credible idea >how! So maybe we should say "a priori" that certain techniques are available. And discuss how and why these could be used. >Put another way. Are we that likely to be so afraid of human extinction, >that we'll rush to do such a project in 50 years? You can never tell :) people are worring about many things (like asteroids colliding with Earth or the Asimov :)) If humanity ever becomes extinct, it will be likely that it is not because of natural disasters. >Oh certainly. The united states gets several million of them a year! But, >another star doesn't offer much opportunity. It isolated, expensive, no >markets to go to, few resorces that you can get at. No home world to go to >on vacation to. Your very dependand on the supply line from Sol, and their >for far less independant than you would be in a colony in Sol. You indeed can't go on vacation, and it probably never will have more than 1000 inhabitants for the first 100 years. But as every place where people live, they will adapt themselves and the environment. Not all people want to become rich by selling stuff, a lot of them just want a place to life as they like with the "sky" as the only limit. As I said before dependancy is only a short time (if at all), once there is TC-light and gravity they can grow food just as on Earth. So the first necessaries of life should not be that difficult. >Also, the kind of people we would send on such a ship. Would be the ellete >that would have a lot of opportunity back home. The people who want a new >start, wouldn't be sent on the ship. If you are 25 to 30 how sure can you be that you are a member of that elite. Also it doesn't have to be a new start but a first very defiant start. Timothy From popserver Fri Jan 5 18:03:08 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["891" "Thu" "5" "January" "1995" "11:37:39" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "38" "" "^From:" "KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com" "KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id CAA15053 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 02:36:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA17547 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 5 Jan 1996 11:37:32 +0100 Message-Id: <199601051037.AA17547@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com Date: Thu, 05 Jan 1995 11:37:39 +0100 Available power sources: Fission Solar power Fusion Chemical Other? Available techniques: Beaming Energy storage in anti-matter Other? Places to go to: Tau Ceti (TC) Alpha Centaury (AC) Pluto Objectives: One way trip Two way trip Let's assume that all the above are possibilities. What we should do is calculate the size and feasability and discuss the (dis)advantages for all cases. We should NOT try to discard a method, but only give its advantages and disadvantages. Of course we have done a lot already, only we haven't ordered it very much. Maybe it is time to recapitulate our discussions. I think that we need a complete survey, of course every one knows a lot of it, but I think that we don't agree about everything yet, but we also don't know exactly what these differences are. So we should try to come up with a kind of report. (Of course easier said than done) Timothy From popserver Fri Jan 5 18:03:35 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3448" "Fri" "5" "January" "1996" "15:47:57" "+0100" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl" nil "115" "Asimov DESIGN SPACE" "^From:" "KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, David@InterWorld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@sunet.se" "KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, David@InterWorld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@sunet.se" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl Received: from sunic.sunet.se (sunic.sunet.se [192.36.125.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id GAA22205 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 06:46:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from lksu.ippt.gov.pl by sunic.sunet.se (8.6.8/2.03) id PAA27365; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:47:20 +0100 Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl by lksu.ippt.gov.pl (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA18161; Fri, 5 Jan 96 15:47:57 +0100 Organization: Institute of Fundamental Technological Research Address: Swietokrzyska 21, 00-049 Warszawa, POLAND Message-Id: <9601051447.AA18161@lksu.ippt.gov.pl> From: zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, David@InterWorld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Cc: zkulpa@sunet.se Subject: Asimov DESIGN SPACE Date: Fri, 5 Jan 96 15:47:57 +0100 > From T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Fri Jan 5 11:40:02 1996 > > Available power sources: > > Fission > Solar power > Fusion > Chemical > Other? > > Available techniques: > > Beaming > Energy storage in anti-matter > Other? > > Places to go to: > > Tau Ceti (TC) > Alpha Centaury (AC) > Pluto > > Objectives: > > One way trip > Two way trip > > Let's assume that all the above are possibilities. What we should do is > calculate the size and feasability and discuss the (dis)advantages for all > cases. We should NOT try to discard a method, but only give its advantages > and disadvantages. > Of course we have done a lot already, only we haven't ordered it very much. > Maybe it is time to recapitulate our discussions. I think that we need a > complete survey, of course every one knows a lot of it, but I think that we > don't agree about everything yet, but we also don't know exactly what these > differences are. > So we should try to come up with a kind of report. (Of course easier said > than done) > Here I would like to remind about my attempt (a year ago) to start recapitulation effort of all discussed options. Below follows the sketch of the beginning ;-)) of the DESIGN SPACE summary I have started then. There should be, of course, many more aspects listed, like target(s), life supply (e.g., stored food/hydroponics/farming; all crew awake/all crew hibernates(or something)/mixed, etc.), command structure, project financing.... &c &c. I think listing all the discussed possibilities, shortly and systematically, should help greatly in clearing the matter and see the whole forest instead of only trees (as Polish saying goes). *************************** * * * LIT "ASIMOV" * * Starship Design * * * *************************** Progress Report The DESIGN SPACE discussed: 1. Type of Mission: * Robotic * Fly-by (no braking nor stop at target) * Exploratory (stop at target & explore) * Pathfinder (ahead of manned one: scouting/early warning) * Supply (after the manned: catching on the way or at target) * Manned: * Without crew procreation * Suicide (explore and die before your time when supplies end) * One-way (outpost construction and stay till natural death) * Round-trip (return to Earth, possibly with some crew left at the outpost) * Multi-step (start to new target from the previous one) * Multigenerational * Short-range, but long (slowship) * Long-range, thus long even though fast (fastship) * Colonization 2. Type of Propulsion * Main source * All fuel on-board * Use the interstellar medium * Power from installations at Solar system * Main type * Fission * Fusion * Antimatter * Sails * Other? 3. Gravity on board * Zero or small gravity * Near-g gravity * Centrifugal (rotational) * Whole ship * Habitat ring only * Tethered sections * Acceleration * Mixed 4. Mission composition * Single ship * Multiple ships * Manned plus robotic: * Pathfinder probes * Supply ships ---------------------------------------------------------- Hoping it may help, -- Zenon From popserver Fri Jan 5 18:03:47 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["173" "Fri" "5" "January" "1996" "07:57:15" "-0800" "Ric Hedman" "HEDMARC@cellpro.cellpro.com" nil "7" "Newsletters" "^From:" "KellySt%aol.com@cellpro.cellpro.com, hous0042%maroon.tc.umn.edu@cellpro.cellpro.com, bpvanstr%yoho.uwaterloo.ca@cellpro.cellpro.com, zkulpa%zmit1.ippt.gov.pl@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim%bogie2.bio.purdue.edu@cellpro.cellpro.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, stevev%efn.org@cellpro.cellpro.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden%student.utwente.nl@cellpro.cellpro.com" "KellySt%aol.com@cellpro.cellpro.com, hous0042%maroon.tc.umn.edu@cellpro.cellpro.com, bpvanstr%yoho.uwaterloo.ca@cellpro.cellpro.com, zkulpa%zmit1.ippt.gov.pl@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim%bogie2.bio.purdue.edu@cellpro.cellpro.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, stevev%efn.org@cellpro.cellpro.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden%student.utwente.nl@cellpro.cellpro.com" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: HEDMARC@cellpro.cellpro.com Received: from cellpro.com (mail.cellpro.com [198.202.28.254]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id HAA25848 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 07:52:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by cryovial.cellpro.com id <44804>; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 07:56:30 -0800 X-Nvlenv-01Date-Posted: 5-Jan-1996 7:57:20 -0800; at Bothell.CellPro Priority: Urgent References: <5041ED30025C2979@-SMF-> Message-Id: <96Jan5.075630pst.44804@cryovial.cellpro.com> From: HEDMARC@cellpro.cellpro.com (Hedman, Ric) To: KellySt%aol.com@cellpro.cellpro.com Cc: hous0042%maroon.tc.umn.edu@cellpro.cellpro.com, bpvanstr%yoho.uwaterloo.ca@cellpro.cellpro.com, zkulpa%zmit1.ippt.gov.pl@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim%bogie2.bio.purdue.edu@cellpro.cellpro.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, stevev%efn.org@cellpro.cellpro.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden%student.utwente.nl@cellpro.cellpro.com Subject: Newsletters Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 07:57:15 -0800 Well. my system has crashed once more. Please send the newsletters to this address until furture notice:: hedmarc@cellpro.cellpro.com Sorry for all the trouble. :-) Ric From popserver Fri Jan 5 18:04:11 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["140" "Fri" "5" "January" "1996" "09:29:24" "-0800" "Ric Hedman" "HEDMARC@cellpro.cellpro.com" nil "6" "e-mails" "^From:" "T.L.G.vanderLinden%student.utwente.nl@cellpro.cellpro.com, bpvanstr%yoho.uwaterloo.ca@cellpro.cellpro.com, zkulpa%zmit1.ippt.gov.pl@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim%bogie2.bio.purdue.edu@cellpro.cellpro.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, stevev%efn.org@cellpro.cellpro.com, hous0042%maroon.tc.umn.edu@cellpro.cellpro.com, KellySt%aol.com@cellpro.cellpro.com" "Timothy van der Linden, bpvanstr%yoho.uwaterloo.ca@cellpro.cellpro.com, zkulpa%zmit1.ippt.gov.pl@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim%bogie2.bio.purdue.edu@cellpro.cellpro.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, stevev%efn.org@cellpro.cellpro.com, hous0042%maroon.tc.umn.edu@cellpro.cellpro.com, KellySt%aol.com@cellpro.cellpro.com" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: HEDMARC@cellpro.cellpro.com Received: from cellpro.com (mail.cellpro.com [198.202.28.254]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id JAA01557 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 09:17:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by cryovial.cellpro.com id <44805>; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 09:20:50 -0800 X-Nvlenv-01Date-Posted: 5-Jan-1996 9:21:26 -0800; at Bothell.CellPro In-Reply-To: <11009A30015C2979@-SMF-> References: <11009A30025C2979@-SMF-> Message-Id: <96Jan5.092050pst.44805@cryovial.cellpro.com> From: HEDMARC@cellpro.cellpro.com (Hedman, Ric) To: T.L.G.vanderLinden%student.utwente.nl@cellpro.cellpro.com (Timothy van der Linden) Cc: bpvanstr%yoho.uwaterloo.ca@cellpro.cellpro.com, zkulpa%zmit1.ippt.gov.pl@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim%bogie2.bio.purdue.edu@cellpro.cellpro.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, stevev%efn.org@cellpro.cellpro.com, hous0042%maroon.tc.umn.edu@cellpro.cellpro.com, KellySt%aol.com@cellpro.cellpro.com Subject: e-mails Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 09:29:24 -0800 Well. my system crashed again. Please forward all Newsletters to me at work until I get my home system up and running again. Thanks, Ric From popserver Fri Jan 5 23:06:51 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["567" "Fri" "6" "January" "1995" "00:04:55" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "15" "Asimov DESIGN SPACE" "^From:" "KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com" "KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id PAA28495 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:03:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA28071 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 6 Jan 1996 00:04:49 +0100 Message-Id: <199601052304.AA28071@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com Subject: Asimov DESIGN SPACE Date: Fri, 06 Jan 1995 00:04:55 +0100 Timothy replies to Zenon: Yes, Zenon I can remember that message very well. To be honest, when you wrote it, I thought, nice idea, but who's gonna do it. And in fact I'm still asking myself who's going to do it? I think I will try to make a start myself, but think it won't be much fun. But I think that now we have a much better idea about the several possibilities then a year ago, so a summary may be a bit more complete. >clearing the matter and see the whole forest instead of only trees >(as Polish saying goes). We have the same saying in Dutch... Timothy From popserver Sat Jan 6 05:05:28 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["3217" "Fri" "5" "January" "1996" "22:27:55" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" "" "82" "Re: Asimov DESIGN SPACE" "^From:" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com" "Timothy van der Linden, KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id UAA18170 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:26:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Fri, 5 Jan 96 22:27:56 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199601052304.AA28071@student.utwente.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: Timothy van der Linden cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com Subject: Re: Asimov DESIGN SPACE Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 22:27:55 -0600 (CST) On Fri, 6 Jan 1995, Timothy van der Linden wrote: > Timothy replies to Zenon: > >clearing the matter and see the whole forest instead of only trees > >(as Polish saying goes). > > We have the same saying in Dutch... > Interesting, in english we say it the other way around: for example, "He can't see the forest for the trees" Now, for another drive proposal (you didn't possibly think I'd give up did you?) Consider the following Gedenken experiment: (inspired by actual events) you are standing on ice skates on very smooth ice (not completely frictionless, but then the ISM is not completely empty either) several hundred of your (friends?) throw snowballs at you, you catch them in a device that compresses a spring as each one is caught. Of course, as Steve teaches us, you begin to move across the ice. your friends continue to pelt you with snow balls, until you are moving with the speed of a thrown snowball (let's call it B). Halfway across the ice, you realize what will happen when you get all the way across the ice (and run out of ice) so you begin to throw your snowballs (using the energy stored in the spring) until you come to a nice stop on the far side of the ice. looking in your snowball holder, you notice that you still have some left, since the friction from the ice slowed you down a little. Of course, some of the snowballs may have melted, or small bits of snow could have rubbed off on the device, but I think you get the idea. Now, consider the the following engine design: Sol sends out a maser beam, and the "Asimov" absorbs it, turning it into electricity (let's say 80% eff) This gives the Asimov a nice 1 G accel. The energy is stored (if I knew how, I wouldn't need you guys ;) ) and later, at the halfway point, the beam from Sol stops. The "Asimov" gains some deceleration out of friction with the ISM (until you get down to about .90 C) and then releases the stored energy in the form of a maser beam generated by the "Asimov" and directed toward TC. Various transfer losses would probably leave you with some velocity even after you expended all of the stored energy. But I think that the velocity you would have left would be within the stopping range of a fusion engine. Once the antenna array was done absorbing the maser beam, it could be used for ISM drag chute, and we don't really care that it erodes away because by the time it's gone, we're below the speed where we get any useful drag. much better if a way can be found to hold the maser in a "mirrored box" and let it out with out needing conversion to electricity. I wonder, can Quantum mechanics help us here? can the wave be put in a box that allows only one harmonic to exist? Return trip is done the same way. Very simple timeline. all times relative to ship. 0 years -- leave earth 5 years -- arrive at TC, Send message informing earth. Begin assembling maser array for return trip. 5-15 yrs-- exploration / refuel / rebuild / 15 years-- maser array at TC finished. Send radio message informing earth 20 years-- arrive Sol eagerly awaiting responses. (esp. Steve and Tim -- renowned throwers of ice water) :) Kevin From popserver Sat Jan 6 05:05:32 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1866" "Fri" "5" "January" "1996" "23:37:29" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "43" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" "rddesign@wolfenet.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" "rddesign@wolfenet.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com (emout06.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.43]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id UAA18725 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:38:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA21403; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 23:37:29 -0500 Message-ID: <960105233728_33202780@emout06.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: rddesign@wolfenet.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 23:37:29 -0500 RE: rddesign@wolfenet.com > >So what are we going to do? > >Our technology isn't quite there yet for the propulsion plant. I'm sure we >could build the rest of the ship no problem. > >The people we would like to crew the ship and maybe colonize the >new system probably won't want to go. > >We have funding problems. To small and not enought money. To large and > you couldn't get folks to decide on when to have dinner much less pay > for it. > >Where do we go? What do we do? > >Do we start in-system with projects on the moon and Mars and build > to the larger prospect of inter-steller flight? > >Alpha Centauri is half the distance. Can we make it at half the speed? Well I made my cut at it a long time ago. A fusion ship could get to Alpha C. in about 20 years, maybe 12, and a bit quicker on the flight back with fuel launchers at each end. That might be short enough to interest the public and capable people. Moneys a problem. This is going to take some heavy coin to pay for, and its not very clear why we'd do it. Colonization doesn't make any sense (why spend decades getting somewhere to do something you could do better at home), and I've never heard of people putting up this kind of money for science. That leaves exploration. A fierce public desire to send someone out there with a camera and a flag. Some reason that people will want to feel really challenged and fund a national adventure. (International isn't feasible. The costs would explode, and you'd never be able to get anything done with that many people working on it.) Early 21st century we should be making a big push into space. By mid century we should have major industrial and tourist projects, and access to effectively unlimited raw materials. Maybe we will be pumped up and full of ourselves and be in the mood for a big adventure. Kelly From popserver Sat Jan 6 17:31:46 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2403" "Fri" "6" "January" "1995" "16:20:48" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "63" "Re: Asimov DESIGN SPACE" "^From:" "KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, hedmarc@cellpro.cellpro.com" "KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, hedmarc@cellpro.cellpro.com" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id HAA05920 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 07:19:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA19553 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 6 Jan 1996 16:20:37 +0100 Message-Id: <199601061520.AA19553@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, hedmarc@cellpro.cellpro.com Subject: Re: Asimov DESIGN SPACE Date: Fri, 06 Jan 1995 16:20:48 +0100 Timothy replies to Kevin: >> >clearing the matter and see the whole forest instead of only trees >> >(as Polish saying goes). >> >> We have the same saying in Dutch... > >Interesting, in english we say it the other way around: > >for example, > >"He can't see the forest for the trees" I guess that in both cases we can't see the forest because of the trees. In fact the Dutch saying is like you wrote it. Zenon uses a negated sentence and so changed the construction of the sentence and says the same... >Consider the following Gedenken experiment: (inspired by actual events) It should be "Gedanken Experiment" (it's German) >Now, consider the the following engine design: > >Sol sends out a maser beam, and the "Asimov" absorbs it, turning it into >electricity (let's say 80% eff) This gives the Asimov a nice 1 G accel. >The energy is stored (if I knew how, I wouldn't need you guys ;) ) The only way to store so much energy would be a matter & anti-matter mixture. Talk to Kelly if you want to hear why this wouldn't work :) >much better if a way can be found to hold the maser in a "mirrored box" >and let it out with out needing conversion to electricity. I wonder, can >Quantum mechanics help us here? can the wave be put in a box that allows >only one harmonic to exist? - What would be the advantage of one harmonic? - No two particles (photons) can be in the same state, so a single harmonic isn't possible. - There is a perfect one-way mirror: a blackhole - An unperfect mirror isn't usefull at all, even the slightest unperfection will give an almost 100% loss in a small time. (The box should at best be a sphere to avoid losses in the edges and joints. So in short your method could work but we don't know a way to store the energy. Besides that, if we could store that energy, it would be better to take it with us from the start, since than there would be no efficiency losses during capturing and beaming. So if we could create anti-matter efficiently and store it, it would always be cheaper then beaming. >5-15 yrs-- exploration / refuel / rebuild / > >15 years-- maser array at TC finished. Send radio message informing earth I wonder if about 100 (wo)men can build a 10 by 10 kilometre maser array (including a power source?) in 10 years. >(esp. Steve and Tim -- renowned throwers of ice water) :) I hope I've cooled you down enough :) Timothy From popserver Sat Jan 6 20:17:51 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1096" "Sat" "6" "January" "1996" "11:06:25" "-0800" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" nil "27" "Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" "Timothy van der Linden, KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: rddesign@wolfenet.com Received: from wolfe.net (mail1.wolfe.net [204.157.98.11]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id KAA15051 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 10:59:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from sea-ts1-p50.wolfenet.com (sea-ts1-p50.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.104]) by wolfe.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id LAA13934; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 11:06:25 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199601061906.LAA13934@wolfe.net> X-Sender: rddesign@gonzo.wolfenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: rddesign@wolfenet.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Subject: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 11:06:25 -0800 (PST) >Steve writes: >>KellySt@aol.com writes: >> > We could work on a Alpha Centuri flight. Thats closer to our capacity. So, let's do something about this. If the fligh time is 15 years we should be able to trim that to 8 to 10 years some how. >> >>Alpha Centauri is 4.3 lyr away. Tau Ceti is 10 lyr away. This >>is barely any difference as far as interstellar travel goes. If >>you can get to Alpha Centauri effectively, you can get to Tau >>Ceti with no more than about twice the travel time. AC is 40% of the distance of TC. I'd say that there is more than "barely any difference". On a galaxtic scale, it's nothing. To humans it makes a big difference.. Kind of like walking to Denver from Seattle instead of walking to New York. I know I could probably do it if i had to. I don't even try and fool myself that I'd want to do that. Now, is there any thing at AC worth going there for? > >It depends, if you can just reach AC with a fusion engine in 15 years, then >a round trip to TC would take at least 60 years. Not many would survive that >trip simply because of age. > >Timothy > Ric From popserver Sat Jan 6 20:17:59 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["9454" "Sat" "6" "January" "1996" "14:37:56" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "242" "Re: Asimov DESIGN SPACE" "^From:" "zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, David@interworld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@emin08.mail.aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" "zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, David@interworld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@emin08.mail.aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.37]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id LAA16785 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 11:39:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA02840; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 14:37:56 -0500 Message-ID: <960106143755_33625202@emout05.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, David@interworld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl cc: zkulpa@emin08.mail.aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Subject: Re: Asimov DESIGN SPACE Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 14:37:56 -0500 >>>> I have an idea <<<< I mensioned to Tim that you couldn't build a ship that could carry a thousand times its own weight in fuel. True, but I forgot about staging! You start with a 1 billion ton fueled ship cluster driven by a 10 million ton engine and support structure (yeah right.). That engine is powerfull enough to push the whole mess at speed. When you burn off 95% of your weight in fuel. The ship cluster weighs 50 million tons, 20% of which is a first stage engine/structure thats WAY too powerful. You throw the first stage away and start a smaller secound stage. It weighs about 400,000 tons (about as much as 4 aircraft carriers) and can push the 40,000,000 ton ship cluster. When you burn that down to 2,000,000 tons of cluster you throw that away that stage for a 70,000 ton ship with 5-10,000 tons of drive systems. Which can use the remaining 390,000 tons of fuel to get itself into the system. stage total weight (tons) thruster pack and stage structure 1 1,000,000,000 10,000,000 2 40,000,000 400,000 3 2,000,000 70,000 ton ship with 5-10,000 tons of drive systems. This assumes a 100 to 1 thrust to weight ration for a fussion drive systems (which is questionable), and once you get where your going, coming back is out. But it would give us huge fuel ratios for relativistic flight. Possibly a multi stage fusion craft to get to the star and build a fuel launcher systems for two way flight? I'll have to think on this. > From T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Fri Jan 5 11:40:02 1996 > > > > Available power sources: > > > > Fission > > Solar power > > Fusion > > Chemical > > Other? > > > > Available techniques: > > > > Beaming > > Energy storage in anti-matter > > Other? > > > > Places to go to: > > > > Tau Ceti (TC) > > Alpha Centaury (AC) > > Pluto > > > > Objectives: > > > > One way trip > > Two way trip > > > > Let's assume that all the above are possibilities. What we should do is > > calculate the size and feasability and discuss the (dis)advantages for all > > cases. We should NOT try to discard a method, but only give its advantages > > and disadvantages. > > Of course we have done a lot already, only we haven't ordered it very much. > > Maybe it is time to recapitulate our discussions. I think that we need a > > complete survey, of course every one knows a lot of it, but I think that we > > don't agree about everything yet, but we also don't know exactly what these > > differences are. > > > So we should try to come up with a kind of report. (Of course easier said > > than done) Good idea, we have pretty well argued threw everything, and a summary would be a good idea. Assuming we'ld dfo it. Several of us have suggested it. A fw said they were starting. Oh well. Using Zenons framework > Here I would like to remind about my attempt (a year ago) > to start recapitulation effort of all discussed options. > Below follows the sketch of the beginning ;-)) > of the DESIGN SPACE summary I have started then. > There should be, of course, many more aspects > listed, like target(s), life supply > (e.g., stored food/hydroponics/farming; > all crew awake/all crew hibernates(or something)/mixed, etc.), > command structure, project financing.... &c &c. > * LIT "ASIMOV" * > * Starship Design * You might have noticed I hate the name Asimov for the ship. It gives the whole project a grade school feel. I mean lets be real. This is a name that would never be acceptable to a real starship project. > The DESIGN SPACE discussed: > > 1. Type of Mission: > * Robotic > * Fly-by (no braking nor stop at target) > * Exploratory (stop at target & explore) > * Pathfinder (ahead of manned one: scouting/early warning) > * Supply (after the manned: catching on the way or at target) Fly by doesn't make much sence. If you just want to observe, you could do that just as well from here with big telescopes. Exploratory and Pathfinder have the same drive problems as the main ship, but greater funding problms and less capabilities. Pathfinder would be good as a warning scout ahead of the main ship though. > * Manned: > * Without crew procreation > * Suicide (explore and die before your time when supplies end) > * One-way (outpost construction and stay till natural death) Suicide and one way are the same. We couldn't biuld a self sustaining outpost, and wouldn't fund resupply flights forever unless there was something in it for us (or a fantastic improvement in star drives back home). NO ONE would fund a one-way flight. > * Round-trip (return to Earth, > possibly with some crew left at the outpost) About the only practical option. If we can't get them back, we woun't be allowed to send them. > * Multi-step (start to new target from the previous one) We are having a big problem even thinking how to get to one star and back. Multiples!? > * Multigenerational > * Short-range, but long (slowship) > * Long-range, thus long even though fast (fastship) > * Colonization We beat this one to death. - If its going to take you that long to get somewhere, wait for faster ships to be built. Since those ships will get there before you do anyway. - People who might want to go explore a star, certainly wouldn't settle for spending the rest of their days stuck in a ship with nothing to do. - The people who get there will have no allegence to the origional mission. In the United States about a century or two back, a lot of religious or other groups decided to go off into the wilderness and found a utopia. They eiather didn't plan and died out quick. Or they lasted about 2 generations. The grand children, didn't have their zeal, so they left, or rebuilt the city/culture along more conventional lines. Why would the grand kids bother to do our exploration for us. They never asked for this, and were never asked. I'ld bet they'ld eiather sit in the ship and wait for a followup mission to rescue them, or turn around and go home. - The people who get to the star wont be the ones you sent. They wont have the same skill mix as the first generation. They wont have any familiarity with planets, exploration, the shutles and rovers they'll need to use, etc.. - The ship would need to be much larger and better equiped to handel multiple generations (only one of which is working). Better medical, people will take more risks with their own lives then with their kids, and old people need MAJOR medical. Assuming we don't do the Canadian health care trick and just tell them their lives are no longer cost effective? - Equipment has a life expectency too folks! Usually less than 40 years. We wont be able rebuild everything in flight. So the ship will grow old and die around the crew. Even if it makes it, by the time it gets their its exploration gear will be in prety tired shape in the bay, and noone will remember how to fix it. (Sorry you can't just look it up in a VR sim.) Multi-gen is interesting in that its both technically more risky, expensive, etc.. and because of its long time lines, its certain to be a waste of time. Again, it will be certian to not get there first. Also there is a moral issue about throwing generations down a dangerous mission for no good reason. > 2. Type of Propulsion > * Main source > * All fuel on-board Not possible unless you have a very slow ship, or anti matter. Niether is very practical. Of course that assumes conventional physics. > * Use the interstellar medium We have no real idea how to, or for that matter know whats out there to use. > * Power from installations at Solar system Beamed power or fuel launchers have the advantage of offloading the need to carry the heavy fuel (and power systems) with the ship. That improves the ships power to weight ration significantly. But the systems are difficult to do, limit range, and don't seem to help us to slow down. > * Main type > * Fission > * Fusion > * Antimatter > * Sails > * Other? Fusion and anti-matter could power a ship. Microwave or laser sails could drive it. > 3. Gravity on board > * Zero or small gravity > * Near-g gravity > * Centrifugal (rotational) > * Whole ship > * Habitat ring only > * Tethered sections > * Acceleration > * Mixed I think the idea I came up with for a multi segmeny hab ring is the best. We need gravity for the crew, and the rotating hab segments will allow it to adapt to changing thrust directions. Unless the ship can operate under continuous thrust for the full flight. This seem best. > 4. Mission composition > * Single ship > * Multiple ships > * Manned plus robotic: > * Pathfinder probes > * Supply ships Given the size the main ship must be, I don't think we could afford 2. Which is a pity from a safty standpoint. A robotic pathfinder would be a good idea if it would work, but I'm dubious. A suply ship sounds a little risky. How would you like to be waiting in the target system for the next 5 years groceries. Kelly p.s. Zenon, did you CC yourself at an AmericaOnline account? (@emin08.mail.aol.com) From popserver Sat Jan 6 20:18:05 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2003" "Sat" "6" "January" "1996" "14:38:09" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "43" "Re: Asimov DESIGN SPACE" "^From:" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.37]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id LAA16860 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 11:41:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA02915; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 14:38:09 -0500 Message-ID: <960106143806_33625334@emout05.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl cc: stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Asimov DESIGN SPACE Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 14:38:09 -0500 > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now, for another drive proposal <<<<<<<<<<< > > > you are standing on ice skates on very smooth ice (not > completely frictionless, but then the ISM is not completely empty > either) several hundred of your (friends?) throw snowballs at > you, you catch them in a device that compresses a spring as each > one is caught. Of course, as Steve teaches us, you begin to move > across the ice. your friends continue to pelt you with snow balls, > until you are moving with the speed of a thrown snowball (let's > call it B). Halfway across the ice, you realize what will happen > when you get all the way across the ice (and run out of ice) so you > begin to throw your snowballs (using the energy stored in the > spring) until you come to a nice stop on the far side of the ice. -- > -- > > > Now, consider the the following engine design: > > > Sol sends out a maser beam, and the "Asimov" absorbs it, turning > it into electricity (let's say 80% eff) This gives the Asimov a > nice 1 G accel. The energy is stored (if I knew how, I wouldn't > need you guys ;) ) and later, at the halfway point, the beam from > Sol stops. The "Asimov" gains some deceleration out of friction > with the ISM (until you get down to about .90 C) and then releases > the stored energy in the form of a maser beam generated by the > "Asimov" and directed toward TC. Various transfer losses would > probably leave you with some velocity even after you expended all > of the stored energy. But I think that the velocity you would have > left would be within the stopping range of a fusion engine.--- > One alternate that was discussed prevbiously would be to throw fusion fuel snowbals to same effect as first section. But of course thats probably impractical over large distences. Your stored microwave idea is interesting, but given the huge watage flows I can't think how to store it. Unless Tim's power to antimatter conversion systems would work. Kelly From popserver Sat Jan 6 20:18:11 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["164" "Sat" "6" "January" "1996" "14:52:06" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "9" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" "rddesign@wolfenet.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com" "rddesign@wolfenet.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id LAA17378 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 11:52:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA03346; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 14:52:06 -0500 Message-ID: <960106145205_84893438@mail02.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: rddesign@wolfenet.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl cc: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 14:52:06 -0500 to: Rick >> Now, is there any thing at AC worth going there for? Is there anything in Tau C? You got a problem with multiple star systems or something? Kelly From popserver Sat Jan 6 21:24:31 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1250" "Sat" "6" "January" "1996" "15:21:48" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "32" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" "KellySt@aol.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com" "KellySt@aol.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id NAA21657 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 13:20:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Sat, 6 Jan 96 15:21:49 -0600 In-Reply-To: <960106145205_84893438@mail02.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: KellySt@aol.com cc: rddesign@wolfenet.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 15:21:48 -0600 (CST) On Sat, 6 Jan 1996 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > to: Rick > > > >> Now, is there any thing at AC worth going there for? > > Is there anything in Tau C? You got a problem with multiple star systems or > something? > One reason to go to AC, would be to see if there are any planets, how far out they are, and so forth. The dynamicists tell us that we can expect them to be close in to one of the stars, or way out from both (all three?) but I've not seen anything that says just how far out or how close in. The opportunities for advancing our knowledge about multi-stared systems might just make the trip worthwhile. we could also see just how much comprhensible noise our star system makes. are we letting out a big Neon sign that blinks and says "Eat at Sol's", or are we such tiny whos that only Horton can hear us? (from a Dr. Suess book called "Horton hears a Who" for our non-native english members) As for the name "Asimov", I was under the impression that it was decided by vote, (although it now seems that we do it by rote) Anyway, you'll all be delighted to know that I now have a descent calculator again, a TI-92 $231.00 at the Univ. Bookstore. a thousand curses on the miscreant who stole my TI-85 >:-( Kevin From popserver Sat Jan 6 22:42:06 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4350" "Sat" "6" "January" "1996" "14:01:06" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "84" "Re: Asimov DESIGN SPACE" "^From:" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com" "Kevin C Houston, Timothy van der Linden, KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: stevev@tzadkiel.efn.org Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (stevev@tzadkiel.efn.org [198.68.17.19]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id OAA23388; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 14:00:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA10967; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 14:01:06 -0800 Message-Id: <199601062201.OAA10967@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: References: <199601052304.AA28071@student.utwente.nl> From: Steve VanDevender To: Kevin C Houston Cc: Timothy van der Linden , KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com Subject: Re: Asimov DESIGN SPACE Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 14:01:06 -0800 Kevin C. Houston writes: > [ . . . ] > > Now, consider the the following engine design: > > Sol sends out a maser beam, and the "Asimov" absorbs it, turning it into > electricity (let's say 80% eff) This gives the Asimov a nice 1 G accel. > The energy is stored (if I knew how, I wouldn't need you guys ;) ) and > later, at the halfway point, the beam from Sol stops. The "Asimov" gains > some deceleration out of friction with the ISM (until you get down to > about .90 C) and then releases the stored energy in the form of a maser > beam generated by the "Asimov" and directed toward TC. Various transfer > losses would probably leave you with some velocity even after you > expended all of the stored energy. But I think that the velocity you > would have left would be within the stopping range of a fusion engine. > Once the antenna array was done absorbing the maser beam, it could be > used for ISM drag chute, and we don't really care that it erodes away > because by the time it's gone, we're below the speed where we get any > useful drag. > > [ . . . ] > > eagerly awaiting responses. > > (esp. Steve and Tim -- renowned throwers of ice water) :) > > Kevin You'll probably die of shock, Kevin, but this idea, at least in concept, could actually work. Collecting and storing the immense energy required is likely to be almost impossible, but assuming that a method existed, this doesn't seem to violate the laws of physics. I'd like to present a similar idea framed in terms ofw a laser and a sheet of "slow glass" -- a material that was the main gimmick in a few science fiction stories by an author whose name I can't remember right now (darn it). Slow glass transmits light, but with a long time delay between when it comes in one side and goes out the other. In the stories, it was used for things like scenery windows -- a sheet of slow glass was set in a field for a few years, then put on the wall of a house, where it would release the years of scenery. Let's pick a sheet of slow glass that has a year-long delay between when it absorbs light on one side and re-emits it on the other. If we shine a laser at a sheet of slow glass, it will effectively appear to absorb the laser light, and the light's momentum, for the first year of its proper time. At the end of that year of proper time for the glass, the laser is turned off, and the absorbed laser light is emitted from the other side of the glass. Light continues to be emitted for another year of proper time for the glass, until all of the laser light absorbed has been emitted. At least to the first analysis, the glass must pick up momentum from the laser beam while it is absorbing the photons, and accelerates for as long as the laser is beamed at it. Then, when the light begins coming out the other side, the glass loses that momentum and decelerates. The end result seems like it ought to be that the glass ends up with some amount of spatial displacement from its original position, and the laser light passes through effectively unchanged, so that energy and momentum are conserved throughout. However, assuming a laser that emits constant power in its rest frame, the light intensity from the laser seen by the slow glass won't be constant. As the slow glass accelerates, the incident power from the laser will decrease from doppler shifting. Getting the glass to accelerate to high relativistic speeds will also cause the system of the glass and the photons absorbed to that point to increase significantly in mass (this isn't the same as what Timothy calls "relativistic mass increase" -- why?). So I'm a little troubled about the overall physics -- if the glass emits exactly the light it saw, then at the end of the first year of its proper time, if it emits the same light it saw at the beginning of the year, an observer in front of it would see that light tremendously blue-shifted if the glass was accelerated to high relativistic speeds. On the other hand, by the end of the second year of proper time of the glass, the light it emits is the very red-shifted light it was absorbing just before the laser turned off. I'm not sure, without doing the math, whether this comes out such that the energy emitted during the second year is the same as the energy absorbed during the first year. From popserver Sat Jan 6 23:17:38 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["591" "Sat" "6" "January" "1996" "15:17:58" "-0800" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" nil "22" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" "KellySt@aol.com, KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" "KellySt@aol.com, KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: rddesign@wolfenet.com Received: from wolfe.net (mail1.wolfe.net [204.157.98.11]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id PAA26461 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 15:11:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from sea-ts1-p50.wolfenet.com (sea-ts1-p50.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.104]) by wolfe.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id PAA26114; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 15:17:58 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199601062317.PAA26114@wolfe.net> X-Sender: rddesign@gonzo.wolfenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: rddesign@wolfenet.com To: KellySt@aol.com Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 15:17:58 -0800 (PST) >to: Rick > > >>> Now, is there any thing at AC worth going there for? > >Is there anything in Tau C? You got a problem with multiple star systems or >something? > >Kelly > I have no problem with multi-star systems but will they support planets that would be stable for life? And you are right, Is there anything at TC worth going to either. The problems is were we live, and probably true for space as a whole, with few stars "close" to us. The problem of living in a spur of a sprial arm, kind of out of the mainstream. Like being in a town that the Intestate jogged around. :-) Ric From popserver Sun Jan 7 03:17:03 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4078" "Sat" "7" "January" "1995" "01:51:26" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "91" "Re: Asimov DESIGN SPACE" "^From:" "KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, hedmarc@cellpro.cellpro.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" "KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, hedmarc@cellpro.cellpro.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id QAA01997 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 16:50:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA10800 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 7 Jan 1996 01:51:20 +0100 Message-Id: <199601070051.AA10800@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, hedmarc@cellpro.cellpro.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Subject: Re: Asimov DESIGN SPACE Date: Sat, 07 Jan 1995 01:51:26 +0100 Timothy replies to Kelly: >stage total weight (tons) thruster pack and stage structure >1 1,000,000,000 10,000,000 >2 40,000,000 400,000 >3 2,000,000 70,000 ton ship > with 5-10,000 tons of > drive systems. > >This assumes a 100 to 1 thrust to weight ration for a fussion drive systems >(which is questionable), and once you get where your going, coming back is >out. But it would give us huge fuel ratios for relativistic flight. > Possibly a multi stage fusion craft to get to the star and build a fuel >launcher systems for two way flight? I'll have to think on this. I assumed that we could build a variable thrust engine, but for weight-savings staging may be better. I think that staging would not solve a more fundamental problem: Pressure One can see the engine as a force pressing on the back of the ship. We want a certain acceleration a. The heavier the ship gets, the bigger the force that is needed to get that acceleration (F=m*a). But assuming the backside of the ship stays about the same, the pressure (p=F/Area) gets bigger and bigger. So for a certain weight of the ship the pressure may become to big for any material to hold. (The backside of the ship is a loose expression, in fact it would be the support beams that connect the ship and the engine) >> * LIT "ASIMOV" * >> * Starship Design * > >You might have noticed I hate the name Asimov for the ship. It gives the >whole project a grade school feel. I mean lets be real. This is a name that >would never be acceptable to a real starship project. I never liked it much either, I guess the vote was done by passer-by-ers on the Web. I can recal that I added the optimistic name 'New Eden' :) What did you vote Kelly? >> * Manned: >> * Without crew procreation >> * Suicide (explore and die before your time when supplies end) >> * One-way (outpost construction and stay till natural death) > >Suicide and one way are the same. We couldn't biuld a self sustaining >outpost, and wouldn't fund resupply flights forever unless there was >something in it for us (or a fantastic improvement in star drives back home). > NO ONE would fund a one-way flight. I don't agree with you on that (yet?), I will expect an answer on my letter of 01-05 10:55. >> * Use the interstellar medium > >We have no real idea how to, or for that matter know whats out there to use. There is just too little, unless we can scoop an area with a 1000 km radius. >> * Power from installations at Solar system > >Beamed power or fuel launchers have the advantage of offloading the need to >carry the heavy fuel (and power systems) with the ship. That improves the >ships power to weight ration significantly. But the systems are difficult to >do, limit range, and don't seem to help us to slow down. Also they have a not so good efficiency. (A big part of the beam just flies along the ship without being used.) >> 3. Gravity on board > >I think the idea I came up with for a multi segmeny hab ring is the best. We >need gravity for the crew, and the rotating hab segments will allow it to >adapt to changing thrust directions. Unless the ship can operate under >continuous thrust for the full flight. This seem best. You would always need the rotating rings, because in the time that you spend at TC you don't have acceleration because of engine-thrust. >> 4. Mission composition > >Given the size the main ship must be, I don't think we could afford 2. Which >is a pity from a safty standpoint. A robotic pathfinder would be a good idea >if it would work, but I'm dubious. > >A suply ship sounds a little risky. How would you like to be waiting in the >target system for the next 5 years groceries. The idea of supply ships is to send them first and wait for them to arrive savely, unfortunately that would take 20 years from their launch. No a good way for food. Timothy From popserver Sun Jan 7 03:17:06 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1118" "Sat" "7" "January" "1995" "01:51:37" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "25" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" "KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, hedmarc@cellpro.cellpro.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" "KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, hedmarc@cellpro.cellpro.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id QAA02001 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 16:50:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA10812 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 7 Jan 1996 01:51:31 +0100 Message-Id: <199601070051.AA10812@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, hedmarc@cellpro.cellpro.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sat, 07 Jan 1995 01:51:37 +0100 !Warning this letter contains no important info! Timothy replies to Kevin: >One reason to go to AC, would be to see if there are any planets, how far >out they are, and so forth. The dynamicists tell us that we can expect >them to be close in to one of the stars, or way out from both (all three?) >but I've not seen anything that says just how far out or how close in. >The opportunities for advancing our knowledge about multi-stared systems >might just make the trip worthwhile. we could also see just how much >comprhensible noise our star system makes. are we letting out a big Neon >sign that blinks and says "Eat at Sol's", or are we such tiny whos that >only Horton can hear us? (from a Dr. Suess book called "Horton hears a >Who" for our non-native english members) And what is "a Who"? >Anyway, you'll all be delighted to know that I now have a descent >calculator again, a TI-92 $231.00 at the Univ. Bookstore. a thousand >curses on the miscreant who stole my TI-85 >:-( So now all you have to do is learn where what function can be found under these "10-function" buttons? Timothy From popserver Sun Jan 7 03:17:07 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3401" "Sat" "7" "January" "1995" "01:51:42" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "66" "Re: Asimov DESIGN SPACE" "^From:" "KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, hedmarc@cellpro.cellpro.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" "KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, hedmarc@cellpro.cellpro.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id QAA02017 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 16:50:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA10820 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 7 Jan 1996 01:51:37 +0100 Message-Id: <199601070051.AA10820@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, hedmarc@cellpro.cellpro.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Subject: Re: Asimov DESIGN SPACE Date: Sat, 07 Jan 1995 01:51:42 +0100 Timothy replies to Steve: >I'd like to present a similar idea framed in terms ofw a laser and >a sheet of "slow glass" -- a material that was the main gimmick >in a few science fiction stories by an author whose name I can't >remember right now (darn it). Slow glass transmits light, but >with a long time delay between when it comes in one side and goes >out the other. In the stories, it was used for things like >scenery windows -- a sheet of slow glass was set in a field for a >few years, then put on the wall of a house, where it would >release the years of scenery. The slowest glass would be diamond with a speed of light 2.4 times slower than vacuum. But maybe there are other material with a higher refractive index for other wavelengths. >At least to the first analysis, the glass must pick up momentum >from the laser beam while it is absorbing the photons, and >accelerates for as long as the laser is beamed at it. Then, when >the light begins coming out the other side, the glass loses that >momentum and decelerates. The end result seems like it ought to >be that the glass ends up with some amount of spatial >displacement from its original position, and the laser light >passes through effectively unchanged, so that energy and momentum >are conserved throughout. This is a really fascinating idea, I wish I had thought of it. >However, assuming a laser that emits constant power in its rest >frame, the light intensity from the laser seen by the slow glass >won't be constant. As the slow glass accelerates, the incident >power from the laser will decrease from doppler shifting. >Getting the glass to accelerate to high relativistic speeds will >also cause the system of the glass and the photons absorbed to >that point to increase significantly in mass (this isn't the same >as what Timothy calls "relativistic mass increase" -- why?). Yes why, I don't understand, the glass is just a fast moving mass, so it will increase in mass due to a higher velocity. Of course the photons add some extra weight (m=Ephoton/c^2) >So I'm a little troubled about the overall physics -- if the glass >emits exactly the light it saw, then at the end of the first year >of its proper time, if it emits the same light it saw at the >beginning of the year, an observer in front of it would see that >light tremendously blue-shifted if the glass was accelerated to >high relativistic speeds. On the other hand, by the end of the >second year of proper time of the glass, the light it emits is >the very red-shifted light it was absorbing just before the laser >turned off. I'm not sure, without doing the math, whether this >comes out such that the energy emitted during the second year is >the same as the energy absorbed during the first year. As far as I can tell this is indeed what happens the first light that comes out is blue shifted. But the last light that comes out isn't more red-shifted than when it entered, because when the last light comes out the glass isn't moving anymore. Of course this slow glass should be very "clear" otherwise most of the light would be really absorbed before it could leave. Now that we are talking about slow-glass, did you know that you could make a photon stand still relative to you. Just shoot it in a bar of glass, then move the glass with about 0.7c in the opposite direction. The photon will then not move relative to you. Timothy From popserver Sun Jan 7 18:02:49 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["728" "Sun" "7" "January" "1996" "08:23:28" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "24" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, hedmarc@cellpro.cellpro.com" "Timothy van der Linden, KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, hedmarc@cellpro.cellpro.com" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id GAA00900 for ; Sun, 7 Jan 1996 06:22:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Sun, 7 Jan 96 08:23:28 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199601070051.AA10812@student.utwente.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: Timothy van der Linden cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, hedmarc@cellpro.cellpro.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 08:23:28 -0600 (CST) On Sat, 7 Jan 1995, Timothy van der Linden wrote: > >only Horton can hear us? (from a Dr. Suess book called "Horton hears a > >Who" for our non-native english members) > > And what is "a Who"? read the book ;) I wouldn't want to spoil the end for you. :) > > >Anyway, you'll all be delighted to know that I now have a descent > >calculator again, a TI-92 $231.00 at the Univ. Bookstore. a thousand > >curses on the miscreant who stole my TI-85 >:-( > > So now all you have to do is learn where what function can be found under > these "10-function" buttons? > yeah, and I'm really upset that the physical constants and the metric conversions aren't on the TI-92, that was half the value of the TI-85 Kevin From popserver Mon Jan 8 19:58:44 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5900" "Mon" "8" "January" "1996" "20:55:12" "+0100" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl" nil "145" "Re: Asimov DESIGN SPACE" "^From:" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, David@interworld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, zkulpa@sunet.se" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, David@interworld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, zkulpa@sunet.se" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl Received: from sunic.sunet.se (sunic.sunet.se [192.36.125.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id LAA23486 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:52:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from lksu.ippt.gov.pl by sunic.sunet.se (8.6.8/2.03) id UAA02886; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 20:53:55 +0100 Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl by lksu.ippt.gov.pl (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26153; Mon, 8 Jan 96 20:55:12 +0100 Organization: Institute of Fundamental Technological Research Address: Swietokrzyska 21, 00-049 Warszawa, POLAND Message-Id: <9601081955.AA26153@lksu.ippt.gov.pl> From: zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, David@interworld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Cc: zkulpa@sunet.se Subject: Re: Asimov DESIGN SPACE Date: Mon, 8 Jan 96 20:55:12 +0100 > From KellySt@aol.com Sat Jan 6 20:43:10 1996 > [...] > Good idea, we have pretty well argued threw everything, and a summary would > be a good idea. Assuming we'ld dfo it. Several of us have suggested it. A > fw said they were starting. Oh well. Using Zenons framework > > > Here I would like to remind about my attempt (a year ago) > > to start recapitulation effort of all discussed options. > > Below follows the sketch of the beginning ;-)) > > of the DESIGN SPACE summary I have started then. > > There should be, of course, many more aspects > > listed, like target(s), life supply > > (e.g., stored food/hydroponics/farming; > > all crew awake/all crew hibernates(or something)/mixed, etc.), > > command structure, project financing.... &c &c. > > > * LIT "ASIMOV" * > > * Starship Design * > > You might have noticed I hate the name Asimov for the ship. It gives the > whole project a grade school feel. I mean lets be real. This is a name that > would never be acceptable to a real starship project. > The name arised from the vote by LIT members. I did not vote - I missed the deadline... My proposal would be different, though Asimov-like: "FarStar". However, on second thoughts, it should possibly be changed to "NearStar", to be more real...;-)). Acceptable for the real thing or not, it seems good enough as our "working name" in discussions. When starting to build the real thing :-) we can announce the name competition again... Concerning my "preliminary sketch of the beginning of the Design Space topics listing" :-)), I think we should first finish the (well ordered & structured) listing of the topics in the Design Space instead of arguing again over these few topics I have listed which were over-argued back and forth already... And the rationale for the listing is NOT to list options which we (who are we, anyway?) AGREED upon (I am afraid there are a few, if any, of them - even the name semms to be still disputable...), but to list ALL the options proposed, in a structured way, to give us insight about the full range of possibilities and their interdependence (something like the list obtained after the first stage of a brainstorming session). Such a listing may be then used as a structuring device for collecting the results of/positions taken during the discussion, showing, e.g., the holes in the arguments or (im)possibilities that were missed somehow, etc. In this way we may come at the only(!? - any other ideas?) useful and READABLE (in the finite time left us... ;-)) summary of the discussion and progress made so far. Without this, I am afraid further discussion would be a waste of time: as many of you complain, we are already either going around in circles, endlessly repeating the arguments and ideas that just happen old enough to be forgotten by most of the remaining participants, or are trying to devise more and more outlandish SF ideas without knowing whether they are really necessary (or whether they were not discussed a year ago...). I know it may be boring, such compilation and structuring of topics, but it is inevitable if the whole LIT affair is to have any further sense. I have made a beginning - let someone else adds a few more topics to the list (from his favourite domain) - we will then shortly discuss and refine the composition of this additional fragment of the list (NOT discussing the pro/contra of the topics on it - THAT was discussed upon already!), then go to the next few... Thus, Kellys discussion of the options on my list is rather off (current) topic - there are many arguments pro/contra the options listed (as for me, I have the opposite opinion to at least some arguments given by Kelly in his letter), but this is no time to repeat them - first, we should list all options discussed, then recapitulate shortly the previous arguments (the even MORE BORING part of the job... ;-)) using the list as a Table of Contents, and then start arguing again for the topics we find not (over-)discussed yet satisfactorily. Thus, despite the (AAAFFFULLL!) itching, I try to refrain from arguing with Kelly's opinions on the topics I listed. Ohhh my, except that one: ;-O ------------------------ > > * Manned: > > * Without crew procreation > > * Suicide (explore and die before your time when supplies end) > > * One-way (outpost construction and stay till natural death) > > Suicide and one way are the same. > Kelly, try to be logical. They are NOT the same (for short explanation - see inside brackets above). > We couldn't biuld a self sustaining > outpost, > If so, we couldn't build the (tens-of-years)-self sustaining space ship, either... > and wouldn't fund resupply flights forever > You assume the outpost crew will live forever? [see above]. And with the presently foreseable technology, the return flight will last just around the life expectancy of the outpost crew (oh, let add some 10 yers or so); thus the return will have almost only one sense - to bury the crew bones in the Earth grave (rather than in Space...). Or either we should assume "a fantastic improvement in star drives" (your words, Kelly...). No question in this case - we should plan a round-trip mission (but, I am sure, quite a number of the crew will want to stay back at the outpost anyway - I would, for that matter). [...] > NO ONE would fund a one-way flight. > Did you ask EVERYone, so you are so cock-sure about that "NO ONE" thing? ------------------------------------------ Enough, Zenon, do not indulge yourself in the pleasure of arguing with Kelly, against your own advice... > p.s. > Zenon, did you CC yourself at an AmericaOnline account? > (@emin08.mail.aol.com) > I do not think so. At least I am not aware of having any contacts with AOL. Why do you ask? -- Zenon From popserver Mon Jan 8 21:55:47 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2399" "Mon" "8" "January" "1996" "16:51:58" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "85" "Re: Asimov DESIGN SPACE" "^From:" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hedmarc@cellpro.cellpro.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, david@interworld.com" "Timothy van der Linden, KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hedmarc@cellpro.cellpro.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, david@interworld.com" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: David@interworld.com Received: from www.interworld.com (interworld.com [165.254.130.4]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id NAA02271 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:51:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from hal ([165.254.130.90]) by www.interworld.com (post.office MTA v1.9.1 ID# 0-11464) with SMTP id AAA259; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 16:55:40 -0500 Message-ID: <30F191FE.4573@interworld.com> Organization: InterWorld, Really Cool Stuff Division X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0b3 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199601070051.AA10800@student.utwente.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David@interworld.com (David Levine) To: Timothy van der Linden CC: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hedmarc@cellpro.cellpro.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, david@interworld.com Subject: Re: Asimov DESIGN SPACE Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 16:51:58 -0500 Timothy van der Linden wrote: > >> * LIT "ASIMOV" * > >> * Starship Design * > > > >You might have noticed I hate the name Asimov for the ship. It gives the > >whole project a grade school feel. I mean lets be real. This is a name that > >would never be acceptable to a real starship project. > > I never liked it much either, I guess the vote was done by passer-by-ers on > the Web. I can recal that I added the optimistic name 'New Eden' :) > What did you vote Kelly? > Obviously, the ship can be called anything - that's the least of the worries. In the interest of accuracy, though, here's how the name was decided: (and again, remember, you guys are doing the work now, if you wish to rename it, please, by all means...) There was a two month period in which names were accepted for submission, and a one month voting period. Only 15 people voted. Internet apathy at its best. First choice got 3 points, second 2 points, and third 1 point. While many of the names on the list are no longer familiar, some of these people were pretty active at the time, and at least three were "faculty", whatever that meant. I can't remember what I voted for, except I think "Albert Einstein" was one of my favorites. People Who Voted: ----------------- Jason Patten Calvin Li Chris Dolan Robin Chapman Scott Dawson Elisa Derickson Timothy van der Linden Eric Moore Doug Lampert Jeff Balcerski Ges Seger Chad Barb David Levine Don Flint Kellie Miller Top Four Names: --------------- Asimov - 13 points Albert Einstein - 9 points Intrepid - 8 points Enterprise - 5 points Last Place: ----------- Bradbury - 1 point Raw Data: --------- Albert Einstein ********* Ambassador ** Ancient Mariner *** Asimov ************* Bradbury * Brain of Pooh ** Brave Endeavour *** Brave New World ** Cassandra's Redemption *** Challenger **** Copernicus **** Eagle ** Emissary *** Enterprise ***** Far Reach ** Intrepid ******** Galileo **** Kepler *** Lady Galadril **** New Eden *** Star Hack ** Star Tramp ** Thunder Road *** Yamato *** From popserver Mon Jan 8 22:56:09 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["226" "Mon" "8" "January" "1996" "14:27:12" "-0800" "Ric Hedman" "HEDMARC@cellpro.cellpro.com" nil "7" "My e-mails" "^From:" "david%InterWorld.com@cellpro.cellpro.com, hous0042%maroon.tc.umn.edu@cellpro.cellpro.com, zkulpa%zmit1.ippt.gov.pl@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim%bogie2.bio.purdue.edu@cellpro.cellpro.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, stevev%efn.org@cellpro.cellpro.com, KellySt%aol.com@cellpro.cellpro.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden%student.utwente.nl@cellpro.cellpro.com" "david%InterWorld.com@cellpro.cellpro.com, hous0042%maroon.tc.umn.edu@cellpro.cellpro.com, zkulpa%zmit1.ippt.gov.pl@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim%bogie2.bio.purdue.edu@cellpro.cellpro.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, stevev%efn.org@cellpro.cellpro.com, KellySt%aol.com@cellpro.cellpro.com, Timothy van der Linden" "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: HEDMARC@cellpro.cellpro.com Received: from cellpro.com (mail.cellpro.com [198.202.28.254]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id OAA03834 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 14:15:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by cryovial.cellpro.com id <44801>; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 14:18:58 -0800 X-Nvlenv-01Date-Posted: 8-Jan-1996 14:19:42 -0800; at Bothell.CellPro Priority: Urgent References: <2449F130025C2979@-SMF-> Message-Id: <96Jan8.141858pst.44801@cryovial.cellpro.com> From: HEDMARC@cellpro.cellpro.com (Hedman, Ric) To: david%InterWorld.com@cellpro.cellpro.com, hous0042%maroon.tc.umn.edu@cellpro.cellpro.com, zkulpa%zmit1.ippt.gov.pl@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim%bogie2.bio.purdue.edu@cellpro.cellpro.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, stevev%efn.org@cellpro.cellpro.com, KellySt%aol.com@cellpro.cellpro.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden%student.utwente.nl@cellpro.cellpro.com (Timothy van der Linden) Subject: My e-mails Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 14:27:12 -0800 Thank you one and all for assiting me during the inconvenence with the LIT newsletter mailings. I can now access e-mail from home again. Please send future newsletters to the: rddesign@wolfenet.com address. Thank you, Ric From popserver Mon May 1 19:28:35 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["10192" "Mon" "1" "May" "1995" "13:02:38" "-0500" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" "" "197" "Re: relativistic acceleration stuff" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil "relativistic acceleration stuff" nil nil] nil) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA10241; Mon, 1 May 95 11:02:39 PDT Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 1 May 95 13:02:41 -0500 Reply-To: Kevin C Houston In-Reply-To: <199504300023.RAA23296@tzadkiel.efn.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 799356346.067 From: Kevin C Houston Sender: Kevin C Houston To: Steve VanDevender Subject: Re: relativistic acceleration stuff Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 13:02:38 -0500 (CDT) On Sat, 29 Apr 1995, Steve VanDevender wrote: > Here I'm keeping things simple by measuring both mass and energy > in units of mass. What this means, though, is that to accelerate > 1 kg of mass to 0.9996 c, you need to convert a additional 35 kg > of mass completely to energy to apply to the original unit of > reaction mass. That's some power requirement! In the most ideal > case, you have to carry 35 times as much fuel as reaction mass to > get an exhaust velocity of 0.9996 c, _or_ receive that quantity > of energy from an outside source. For your example of wanting to > have 0.011645 kg accelerated to that velocity, the total power > required is 3.701E16 joules; therefore you have to receive beamed > power of 3.701E16 W in order to maintain a rate of 0.011645 kg of > reaction mass accelerated to 0.9996 c every second. This number (3.7 E+16 W) agrees quite well with my results. > > This is complicated further by redshifting; as you reach higher > and higher velocities the effective power from the beam > decreases. In order for the ship to maintain a consistent 10 > m/s^2 acceleration in its frame, the beamer has to continually > increase its power. > I looked at the redshifting problem, and decided that the sensible thing to do is decrease your acceleration as you approach light speed. in the ship's frame, the amount of time spent accelerating less than 10 m/s^2 is only about a week, and if the power starts out slightly higher than needed, then there is no shortfall at midpoint. > If you really could maintain 1 g acceleration in the ship frame, > you run into an even worse problem with getting beamed power -- > during the first year of acceleration, you watch the beam > decrease in power to effectively 0! If you continue the > acceleration using stored fuel on the ship, the beamer is > completely inaccessible to you -- your velocity approaches an > asymptote with slope c that intersects the origin at about t = 1 > yr. You are completely unable to receive anything from the other > side of that asymptote, or in other words power transmitted after > about the first year of beamer (Earth) time; it's very much like > a black hole event horizon opens up 1 lyr behind you. Of course, > in reality maintaining continuous acceleration indefinitely is > pretty much impossible, but you are going to have to expect that > you won't get much beamed power once you get very close to c. > Again, by decreasing your acceleration near the midpoint, you can avoid some of this problem by not getting too close to c. The rest of the problem dissappears (for me) upon noting that the beamer only has to beam about 1.5 years anyway, after that, any light that is beamed to T.C. will get there _after_ we've come to rest. also, the time dialation effect would keep _power_ (not energy) essentially constant wouldn't it? by that I mean that while red-shifted light would be falling on the dipoles, the amount that would fall per second would increase (beacuse our seconds would get longer). Also, because we have to decelerate at some point, power sent from earth after 1 year would still reach us and do us some good, when we are approaching T.C. > Here's a relativity puzzler that you might find enlightening (I > came up with it while I was thinking about these problems, and > while I haven't made a detailed analytical solution, I'm pretty > sure that I know what the answer is): You have two perfect > mirrors facing each other, exactly parallel. You create a > coherent beam of photons that will bounce continually back and > forth between the mirrors. The photons have momentum (and > therefore energy) p; the two identical mirrors each have mass m. > By reflecting off the mirrors, the photons will gradually > accelerate the mirrors, causing them to move apart; what are the > final velocities of the mirrors, and what happens to the beam of > photons? Without going into a detailed analysis, I would say that as the mirrors begin to accelerate, the reflected light would begin falling in energy (wavelength) and that the final speed would depend on the amount of energy in the beam of light and the mass of the mirrors; the final speed should be less than c, unless you have infinite time in which to accelerate. > There are several reasons why I think that a mass-based thruster > may be more advantageous than a photon-based one: > > 1) slowing down. You need a sail three times larger than otherwise > needed, in order to have the incident photons be in the right > direction. > > I don't know that I have the _Flight of the Dragonfly_ book, but > I do have the _Rocheworld_ serial that appeared in Analog, which > I think was the original publication of the book. I just looked > over it for a bit, and it appears to use an idea I hadn't > originally been thinking about, which is to use a sail initially > to accelerate, then to split the sail and use part of it to > reflect and focus energy backwards to the remaining part to > decelerate. I didn't see any hard figures leap out at me other > than the sail sizes, though; those agree with the figures you > imply. > This is one of the monsters in the light sail senario, "Dragonfly" weighs 10,000 tons (inner sail and 3000 tons payload) with a 300 Km dia inner sail, and a 1000 Km outer sail (outer sail alone weighs 72,000 tons) it acelerates at .01g for twenty years, and decelerates at .1 g for 2 years. I meant to say that it'd need three times the _energy_ for deceleration. I now see, that these sail sizes are smaller than the MARS (10000 Km) but the payload size of the MARS is much bigger (2,000,000) tons and we are going to accelerate at 1 Sg, so we wont have any medical problems (and we get that wonderful time dialation) > 2) drag and radiation at relativistic velocity. the best acceleration > is going to be one grav or slightly above, near turnaround point, we > get up to .999999....... of C (you pays your money and you takes your > decimal points) however, this is just where drag starts to play havoc > with your sail. the on coming protons (stripped hydrogens) _appear_ > much more massive than normal (of course). but because of > time-dialation effects, you encounter many more of them in a ship's > "day" than you would otherwise find in interstellar space. near > turnaround, we are going to pass through a volume of space of a > light-year length in around three days. if you have a huge sail, then > the force of the interstellar gale will slow you down fast! > > It's not that the incoming protons are more massive. It's that > they have more energy and momentum. This is kind of a picky > distinction, but at my current level of understanding it is > important. What I mean by saying that their mass has increased, is to say that the momentum and velocity dont add up with the rest mass. p=M*V but the momentum of the oncoming hydrogen coming at near light speed is not consistent with an atomic weight of one AMU it is consistent with a particle of mass of 1 AMU/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) > > You could also blame the increased incidence of incoming protons > on Lorentz contraction; you get the same result. > Yes I know. > As far as I know, if the beamed power is coming in at radio > frequencies (weren't we talking about a microwave beamer?), the > reflector doesn't have to be one continuous sheet, like it would > be if you were using a visible-light laser. well, even the visible light sail that Foreward uesed, had tiny holes in it that were smaller than the wavelength of laser light ( but when the hero tripled the wavelength of light, (to get around a fensel zone lens that had not gotten enough federal funding), he forgot to mention whether the one-third sized wave lengths would passs through the sail Hee Hee Hee. > > 3)sail size. The sail size needed to accelerate at 1 grav is > horrendous, even for a "small" ship. See Robert L. Foreward's "Flight > of the Dragonfly" (if you haven't already.) > > Again, I don't see why a reflective sail is going to be any > larger than the antenna/collector needed to absorb the energy > rather than reflect it. retro reflection > > What I'm arguing is that if you are relying on beamed power to > reduce your mass load, then you are better off reflecting the > power to get thrust rather than using it to accelerate reaction > mass, at least for the acceleration phase of your trip. Here's > why: > > You don't discard all the reaction mass at once, as in the ideal > equation I derived earlier. In the early phases of the trip, you > are using your reaction mass to accelerate your remaining > reaction mass in addition to the payload mass. So you have to > throw more reaction mass during the early phases of the trip to > maintain constant acceleration. okay, I agree with the esthetics of yur argument, that is it makes sense that the same amount of energy will produce the same amount of acceleration regardless of it's use, but I would like to see a few calculations just to be sure. you've already calculated the amount of energy needed to accelerate the exhaust stream, now convert that energy to photons and calculate the amount of thrust gained by reflecting them. BTW, what kind of acceleration do you gain just by absorbing the photons, and not reflecting them? > > I do realize, however, that one way or another you're going to > have to carry reaction mass to _decelerate_, whether you throw it > out the back with the help of beamed power or not. It turns out > that even if you have the fabled photon rocket, getting to any > high fraction of c requires substantially more fuel than payload; > this fuel/payload ratio _squares_ if you intend to both > accelerate and decelerate under your own power. So a practical > design could very well involve using beamed power to accelerate > and stored reaction mass to declerate. > Actually, we can slow down and scoop up reaction mass needed for the final slow down. I posted a formula by which scoop size needed to get a 10m/s^2 deceleration can be figured. From popserver Tue May 16 19:46:03 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["2715" "Tue" "16" "May" "1995" "08:20:07" "-0500" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" "" "55" "Re: relativistic acceleration stuff" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil "relativistic acceleration stuff" nil nil] nil) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA12176; Tue, 16 May 95 06:20:29 PDT Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Tue, 16 May 95 08:20:08 -0500 In-Reply-To: <199504300023.RAA23296@tzadkiel.efn.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 800653470.026 From: Kevin C Houston To: Steve VanDevender Subject: Re: relativistic acceleration stuff Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 08:20:07 -0500 (CDT) Steve, I was going through my old E-mail, when I re-read this one from you and I think I have some newer (to me anyway) thoughts on them. On Sat, 29 Apr 1995, Steve VanDevender wrote: > required is 3.701E16 joules; therefore you have to receive beamed > power of 3.701E16 W in order to maintain a rate of 0.011645 kg of > reaction mass accelerated to 0.9996 c every second. > > This is complicated further by redshifting; as you reach higher > and higher velocities the effective power from the beam > decreases. In order for the ship to maintain a consistent 10 > m/s^2 acceleration in its frame, the beamer has to continually > increase its power. > This can be kept to an order of two magnitude. Beamer stays constant. > If you really could maintain 1 g acceleration in the ship frame, > you run into an even worse problem with getting beamed power -- > during the first year of acceleration, you watch the beam > decrease in power to effectively 0! But at the same (well I was gonna say time but that would lead to confusion) in the same way, the rate of change of everything on the ship decreases. It's just like going into a kind of hibernation. Thus the beamer sends out an energy pulse of about 2 L.Y. long. The crew then use the first L.Y.'s worth of energy to approach c to four or five decimals. The ship then nearly "keeps pace" with it's energy supply, and uses hardly any at all. This is possible because with very long time parameters, very little energy is needed to effect change, so that the crew "feels" awake, the clocks and other (mechanical/electrical/ chemical/bio-chemical) systems behave normally within the frame of the ship itself. > If you continue the > acceleration using stored fuel on the ship, the beamer is > completely inaccessible to you -- your velocity approaches an > asymptote with slope c that intersects the origin at about t = 1 > yr. You are completely unable to receive anything from the other > side of that asymptote, or in other words power transmitted after > about the first year of beamer (Earth) time; it's very much like > a black hole event horizon opens up 1 lyr behind you. Of course, > in reality maintaining continuous acceleration indefinitely is > pretty much impossible, but you are going to have to expect that > you won't get much beamed power once you get very close to c. No, I won't get much beamed _energy_ , I'll have plenty of power tho' because each of my seconds becomes worth hundreds of beamer seconds. So when I absorb one seconds worth of energy, it suffices me for nearly two minutes beamer time because my demand for energy (in any form) has decreased. Kevin From popserver Wed May 17 19:29:24 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["8094" "Wed" "17" "May" "1995" "08:39:28" "-0500" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "165" "Re: relativistic acceleration stuff" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil "relativistic acceleration stuff" nil nil] nil) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by efn.efn.org (4.1/smail2.5/05-07-92) id AA01662; Wed, 17 May 95 06:39:41 PDT Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Wed, 17 May 95 08:39:28 -0500 In-Reply-To: <199505162301.QAA13293@tzadkiel.efn.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 800738860.023 From: Kevin C Houston To: Steve VanDevender Subject: Re: relativistic acceleration stuff Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 08:39:28 -0500 (CDT) > Kevin C. Houston writes: > > > > > > This can be kept to an order of two magnitude. Beamer stays constant. > > What are you saying here? That the beam only has to vary in > magnitude by an "order of two", or that it stays constant? Both. The Beamer sends a constant wavelength. The ship only sees the wavelength vary by a factor of ~130 near midpoint. (velocity is limited to .99997 c due to the ship reducing acceleration before midpoint) > > To maintain constant acceleration _in the ship's rest frame_, the > ship must receive a constant amount of energy _in its frame_. As > the ship accelerates away from the beamer and reaches higher > velocities, _it will see the beamer output go down in energy_. > If you claim anything else, you haven't been studying your > relativity theory. You keep making the mistake (or the mis-type) of equating energy and power (power = energy/time) so that as time slows down, power goes up for an equal amount of energy or stays constant for a decreasing amount of energy. In order to maintain a constant acceleration, the ship must recieve a constant amount of _power_ in it's frame, and that can be affected by time dialation parameters. > > > If you really could maintain 1 g acceleration in the ship frame, > > > you run into an even worse problem with getting beamed power -- > > > during the first year of acceleration, you watch the beam > > > decrease in power to effectively 0! > > > > But at the same (well I was gonna say time but that would lead to > > confusion) in the same way, the rate of change of everything on the ship > > decreases. It's just like going into a kind of hibernation. Thus the > > beamer sends out an energy pulse of about 2 L.Y. long. > > The crew then use the first L.Y.'s worth of energy to approach c to four > > or five decimals. The ship then nearly "keeps pace" with it's energy > > supply, and uses hardly any at all. This is possible because with very > > long time parameters, very little energy is needed to effect change, so > > that the crew "feels" awake, the clocks and other (mechanical/electrical/ > > chemical/bio-chemical) systems behave normally within the frame of the > > ship itself. > > I don't think you understand what goes on. If the ship maintains > constant acceleration at 1G, it can only see about 1 year's worth > of power. IT NEVER SEES LIGHT EMITTED FROM THE BEAMER AFTER > THAT, UNTIL ITS ACCELERATION DECREASES. please don't shout. I understand full well what is going on here, I'm just having a little difficulting explaining what I mean to you. first point, I'n not talking about open-ended acceleration, I'm talking about the trip we are planning to T.C. the ship will be under acceleration for about 3/4 of a year. that is, they will only accelerate with power from the first 9 months of the beam. then they will turn around and begin decelerating. > > Draw a spacetime diagram with a hyperbola opening to the right > whose asymptotes are the lines t = x/c and t = -x/c. The > worldline of the uniformly accelerated ship corresponds to the > hyperbola. In this diagram, the ship starts at a nonzero x = 1/a > (a is the acceleration) at t = 0. Light is constrained to move > along worldlines of the form t = x/c + k and t = -x/c + k, for > any arbitrary constant k. What light lines can intersect the > hyperbola? At what times and locations can those light beams be > emitted in the global frame? Using the four regions bounded by > the asymptotes, you'll see that only light from the region below > t = x/c can ever reach the ship. Light from above that region > never reaches the ship. Similarly, the ship can only send light > to the region above t = -x/c. > Imagine yourself to be floating in space watching the trip from a long ways off. what would you see as a stationary observer. 1) Time=0 days Sol system begins beaming and "Asimov" begins accelerating. 2) Time~365 days. Ship reaches near light speed (time=c/a) dist ~.5 L.Y. 3) Time~547 days. Dist ~1 L.Y. Earth stops sending Beam. Ship and beam travel nearly as one, that is to say that the tail end of the beam does not move apreciably nearer to the ship. Time is very slow on ship by factor of ~130:1 4) dist=5.98 L.Y. ship begins decelerating. Tail end of beam begins to move toward ship again. 5) midpoint+547 days dist=11.9 L.Y. ship arrives at T.C. tail end of beam arrives at T.C. also > > No, I won't get much beamed _energy_ , I'll have plenty of power tho' > > because each of my seconds becomes worth hundreds of beamer seconds. So > > when I absorb one seconds worth of energy, it suffices me for > > nearly two minutes beamer time because my demand for energy (in any form) > > has decreased. > > No, you are mixing frames, and thereby ruining your argument. > Draw everything out in a frame that is inertial (the ship's frame > is accelerating, so it is invalid as an ongoing reference for > analysis in special relativity). When the beamer emits one > second of energy in your global frame, it takes much more time > than that along the ship's worldline for that second of energy to > be received when the ship is at high velocity. In the case of > sustained acceleration, only a finite amount of energy from the > beamer is ever visible to the ship; energy emitted after a time > 1/a (a is the acceleration in 1/m units) can never reach the > ship. I agree that we can't accelerate forever, and for the reason you state. However, by the time you had accelerated to that point, you're time rate would be so slow, that for all practical purposes you'd be standing still. (i.e. you could cover light-years of distance in a single "hour" of your awareness) the small amount of additional acceleration you might accomplish over these multi-light-years of space would feel like 10m/s^2 to you on the ship, but it wouldn't increase your energy or momentum very much (as measured by the outside observer) Ok, I'm traveling at .99997 c (no accel), and getting my power from a beam coming from behind. Power in the beam is 1000 KJ/s. The beam is at a wavelength of 130 cm as measured by the stationary beamer. So that the wavelength I "see" is 1 cm. (of course, I cooked the numbers). So the energy in the beam that I can use is 130 times less than if I were stationary or energy in one second of beam = 7.69 KJ. But my time rate is 130 times slower than the beamer's. so that I will recieve 130 seconds of beam (as measured by the beamer) in only 1 second (as measured by me) this is 7.69 *130 =1000 KJ. Time dialation conspires with lorentz contraction to provide me with the same amount of _power_. > > You really should sit down and read _Spacetime Physics_. You're > making elementary errors in reasoning about relativistic physics. > I have taken a modern physics course in college, although much of it was wave equations, we did have some relativity training. I will be reading "Spacetime Physics" and the gravitation book you mentioned over the summer. Since you have read these books recently, here's a project for you: come up with equations for the ship that: 1) show ships velocity as a function of ship time (St) assuming constant accel. ex. v=f(St,a) 2) show ship's distance from earth in earth-sized meters D as a function of ship time assuming constant accel. ex D (in meters)=f(St,a) 3) the amount of exhaust mass Em moving at .9996 c required to accelerate a ship at 10 m/s^2 (as felt by the crew) as a function of ship's total mass Mt. ex. Em=f(Mt,a) 4) the rest mass (as measured by the crew) of that exhaust. ex. Rm=f(Em,.9996c) 5) The power (in units of energy) needed on board to accelerate that mass flow to .9996c (assume stored energy on board to make it easier) ex. P=f(Rm,.9996c) This will enable us to track time and energy requirements of the "Asimov" much better than in the past. Hopefully I'll be able to dump these formulas into the spreadsheet, and model the trip much better. Kevin From popserver Sun Dec 31 18:13:11 GMT 1995 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1812" "Sun" "31" "December" "1995" "15:23:59" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "40" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "12" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id GAA05466 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 06:22:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA03264 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 31 Dec 1995 15:23:54 +0100 Message-Id: <199512311423.AA03264@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 15:23:59 +0100 >This page is _so cool_ that I've stayed up until 3:30 am looking >at it: > >http://www.fourmilab.ch/cship/cship.html Yes, I had found it a month ago or so, and downloaded it all, (took some time though) now I've a copy at my own HDD. I had in mind telling you about it, but when 2 weeks ago I walked around in your netpage, I saw that you already had a link to C-ship. I tried contacting the author, but have a hard time getting answers. He only replied my first email very shortly. The next letter involved some questions but I haven't heard from him since. >Although his starship design is simplistic and intended more for >expository purposes than as a completely realistic design, it >does have some interesting features I haven't seen us discuss >before. In particular he discusses the need for streamlining (!) >for a ship that travels at high relativistic speeds. In essence >it's a self-powered ship fueled by antimatter. He assumes that the interstellar medium and the background radiation give much drag, I think that is neglectable for speeds under .99c (and probably even higher) >The coolest part, though, is a couple of MPEGs that show trips >through his imaginary "lattice galaxy" at relativistic speeds. >This is exactly the kind of thing I want to do with my starship >simulation program (still completely embryonic at this point), >but with a database of real stars in the Solar neighborhood. >View the MPEGs, and then we can talk about why it looks like >you're flying backwards at the start of a trip. These 6 mpeg have a total size of 5 Mb, so for the other who are interested, be warned. The rest of the pages is about 1 Mb including the images. I myself have some doubts about some points in the simulation, but as I said before, the author doesn't answer my questions. Timothy From popserver Tue Jan 9 05:53:05 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6344" "Mon" "8" "January" "1996" "21:40:15" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "165" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com (emout06.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.43]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id SAA23753 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:40:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA22883; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 21:40:15 -0500 Message-ID: <960108213807_86279596@emout06.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl cc: stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com, hedmarc@cellpro.cellpro.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 21:40:15 -0500 > > to: Rick > > > > > >>> Now, is there any thing at AC worth going there for? > > > >Is there anything in Tau C? You got a problem with multiple star systems or > >something? > > > >Kelly > > I have no problem with multi-star systems but will they support > planets that would be stable for life? And you are right, Is there > anything at TC worth going to either. Who knows? We have no idea what areas life can handel. If nothing else a very different starsystem could answer a lot of questions, especiall with three stars of different types. Of course we'ld know where the planets were before we sent of the mission. > The problems is were we live, and probably true for space as a whole, with > few stars "close" to us. The problem of living in a spur of a sprial arm, > kind of out of the mainstream. Like being in a town that the Intestate > jogged around. :-) Unfortunatly, this is an unusually empty area of space. Both in starsystems and in interstellar matter. > > To Timothy: > > >stage total weight (tons) thruster pack and stage structure > >1 1,000,000,000 10,000,000 > >2 40,000,000 400,000 > >3 2,000,000 70,000 ton ship > > with 5-10,000 tons of > > drive systems. > > > >This assumes a 100 to 1 thrust to weight ration for a fussion drive systems > >(which is questionable), and once you get where your going, coming back is > >out. But it would give us huge fuel ratios for relativistic flight. > > Possibly a multi stage fusion craft to get to the star and build a fuel > >launcher systems for two way flight? I'll have to think on this. > > I assumed that we could build a variable thrust engine, but for > weight-savings staging may be better. Yes, the weight of the huge engines we'ld need at the start would dominate the ship after a little while. > I think that staging would not solve a more fundamental problem: Pressure > One can see the engine as a force pressing on the back of the ship. We want > a certain acceleration a. The heavier the ship gets, the bigger the force > that is needed to get that acceleration (F=m*a). But assuming the backside > of the ship stays about the same, the pressure (p=F/Area) gets bigger and > bigger. --- Do you mean the thrust loads? If so we will need to take that into consideration. But we can use some of the fuel or reaction mass as structure (ice perhaps?) and the structure needed to carry the load shouldn't be a major fraction of the fuel mass. > > >> * LIT "ASIMOV" * > >> * Starship Design * > > > >You might have noticed I hate the name Asimov for the ship. It gives the > >whole project a grade school feel. I mean lets be real. This is a name that > >would never be acceptable to a real starship project. > > I never liked it much either, I guess the vote was done by passer-by-ers on > the Web. I can recal that I added the optimistic name 'New Eden' :) > What did you vote Kelly? I never even heard their was a vote until the 'winner' was announced. Thou I guess since I picked Explorer for my design, that would count as a vote. > >> * Manned: > >> * Without crew procreation > >> * Suicide (explore and die before your time when supplies end) > >> * One-way (outpost construction and stay till natural death) > > > >Suicide and one way are the same. We couldn't biuld a self sustaining > >outpost, and wouldn't fund resupply flights forever unless there was > >something in it for us (or a fantastic improvement in star drives back home). > > NO ONE would fund a one-way flight. > > I don't agree with you on that (yet?), I will expect an answer on > my letter of 01-05 10:55. What letter? The ones in my inbox don't have that time? Given that fantastic trouble NASA has always had justifing risking people in space. The idea of deliberatly sending them to their deaths is ludacrus! Every politician who ever came near you would rush to lead the witch hunt to fire you and anyone who ever asked you a question. Any public interest in the project would immediatly turn to revulsion at such a suggestion. The whole concept of interstallar flight would be off limits for years, even if someone else came up with a two way idea. > >> * Use the interstellar medium > > > >We have no real idea how to, or for that matter know whats out there to use. > > There is just too little, unless we can scoop an area with a 1000 km radius. Again we don't even know whats out their, but it does seem unlikly that it will be able to help us any. > >> * Power from installations at Solar system > > > >Beamed power or fuel launchers have the advantage of offloading the need to > >carry the heavy fuel (and power systems) with the ship. That improves the > >ships power to weight ration significantly. But the systems are difficult to > >do, limit range, and don't seem to help us to slow down. > > Also they have a not so good efficiency. (A big part of the beam just flies > along the ship without being used.) Thats true of beamed power, not launched fuel. > >> 3. Gravity on board > > > >I think the idea I came up with for a multi segmeny hab ring is the best. We > >need gravity for the crew, and the rotating hab segments will allow it to > >adapt to changing thrust directions. Unless the ship can operate under > >continuous thrust for the full flight. This seem best. > > You would always need the rotating rings, because in the time that you spend > at TC you don't have acceleration because of engine-thrust. True. I guess my had ring idea covers all requirement well enough to be assumed in a ship. > >> 4. Mission composition > > > >Given the size the main ship must be, I don't think we could afford 2. Which > >is a pity from a safty standpoint. A robotic pathfinder would be a good idea > >if it would work, but I'm dubious. > > > >A suply ship sounds a little risky. How would you like to be waiting in the > >target system for the next 5 years groceries. > > The idea of supply ships is to send them first and wait for them to arrive > savely, unfortunately that would take 20 years from their launch. No a good > way for food. 20 year old rations? Kelly From popserver Wed Jan 10 05:04:25 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2930" "Wed" "10" "January" "1996" "00:17:02" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "64" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id PAA03985 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 15:16:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA03942 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 10 Jan 1996 00:16:55 +0100 Message-Id: <199601092316.AA03942@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 00:17:02 +0100 Timothy replies to Kelly: >> I think that staging would not solve a more fundamental problem: Pressure >> One can see the engine as a force pressing on the back of the ship. We want >> a certain acceleration a. The heavier the ship gets, the bigger the force >> that is needed to get that acceleration (F=m*a). But assuming the backside >> of the ship stays about the same, the pressure (p=F/Area) gets bigger and >> bigger. --- > >Do you mean the thrust loads? If so we will need to take that into >consideration. But we can use some of the fuel or reaction mass as structure >(ice perhaps?) and the structure needed to carry the load shouldn't be a >major fraction of the fuel mass. I'm not sure of what you mean with thrust loads. What I meant was that the beams that connect the engine with the ship may not be able to stand the load. It's like you were pulling a very heavy cart with a sewing thread. For most metals the pull- or press-strength is about the same and in the magnitude of 4E8 N/m^2 You have a solid beam of iron (7.8E3 kg/m^3) with sizes 10x10x5000 metres. It would weigh 10*10*5000*7.8E3=3.9E9 kg Now you want to accelerate is with 9.8 m/s^2 you do that by equally excerting pressure at the 10x10 area. That would mean a pressure of (3.9E9*9.8)/(10*10)=3.8E8 N/m^2 As you can see the pressure is almost to is maximum and any unperfection will probably have caused it to snap earlier. I thought of a way to overcome this problem though, just add some (probably more than 10) extra engines. Then the load per engine could be less and so could the stresses. These extra engines should NOT be placed at the back (that would not change the problem) but along the side of it. >>I don't agree with you on that (yet?), I will expect an answer on >>my letter of 01-05 10:55. > >What letter? The ones in my inbox don't have that time? Maybe you have one of 6 hours earlier due to timezones, but I will send it to you again. >> >> * Power from installations at Solar system >> > >> >Beamed power or fuel launchers have the advantage of offloading the need >to >> >carry the heavy fuel (and power systems) with the ship. That improves the >> >ships power to weight ration significantly. But the systems are difficult >to >> >do, limit range, and don't seem to help us to slow down. >> >> Also they have a not so good efficiency. (A big part of the beam just flies >> along the ship without being used.) > >Thats true of beamed power, not launched fuel. The advantage of a lower ship:fuel ratio is that it needs less energy. If one decides to launch that fuel instead of adding it to the ship from the start, there is not much gain: Although the weight of launched fuel is less, there is a large extra amount of energy needed to launch that fuel. It follows from calculations that the total gain is not so big as you would have thought. But what you have added is a complicated launch method. Timothy From popserver Fri Jan 12 03:57:19 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["17239" "Thu" "11" "January" "1996" "21:30:51" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "382" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com (emout06.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.43]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id SAA14790 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 18:32:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA08095; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 21:30:51 -0500 Message-ID: <960111212801_88210828@emout06.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 21:30:51 -0500 Zenon! I did get you letter but was going to try to shuffle the catagories around and see if I could come up with something. I will respond! Oh, I still say there is no significant difference between a suicide flight, and a flight where the crew are abandoned with enough supplies to last them their life. I am frankly shocked that you and Tim could seriously suggest such a horrific and ruthless option. Thats like sending a team to antartica, on a one way trip to the pole with no resuply and recovery runs! "Hey guys, go there, explore, radio back what you find, and here's 50 years supplies and parts for you to live out you life with." Timothy replies to Kelly: > > >> I think that staging would not solve a more fundamental problem: Pressure > >> One can see the engine as a force pressing on the back of the ship. We want > >> a certain acceleration a. The heavier the ship gets, the bigger the force > >> that is needed to get that acceleration (F=m*a). But assuming the backside > >> of the ship stays about the same, the pressure (p=F/Area) gets bigger and > >> bigger. --- > > > >Do you mean the thrust loads? If so we will need to take that into > >consideration. But we can use some of the fuel or reaction mass as structure > >(ice perhaps?) and the structure needed to carry the load shouldn't be a > >major fraction of the fuel mass. > > I'm not sure of what you mean with thrust loads. Thrust is the presure on the ship from the engines that shoves the craft along. > What I meant was that the beams that connect the engine with the ship may > not be able to stand the load. It's like you were pulling a very heavy cart > with a sewing thread. For most metals the pull- or press-strength is about > the same and in the magnitude of 4E8 N/m^2 > > You have a solid beam of iron (7.8E3 kg/m^3) with sizes 10x10x5000 metres. > It would weigh 10*10*5000*7.8E3=3.9E9 kg > Now you want to accelerate is with 9.8 m/s^2 you do that by equally > excerting pressure at the 10x10 area. > That would mean a pressure of (3.9E9*9.8)/(10*10)=3.8E8 N/m^2 > As you can see the pressure is almost to is maximum and any unperfection --- This really isnt a problem Tim. All large systems have to distribute their strructural loads amoung enough structure to get the job done. The shuttle tanks for example weight 30 tons, yet can carry about 750 tons of fuel at multiple G accelerations, and provide expensive structural bracing for the fources of the attached solid boosters and orbiter. Our starship design would be comparativly trivial. >-----These extra engines should NOT be placed at the back > (that would not change the problem) but along the side of it. Sorry they have to be at the back. Otherwise they would be blasting the sides of the ship. > >>I don't agree with you on that (yet?), I will expect an answer on > >>my letter of 01-05 10:55. > > > >What letter? The ones in my inbox don't have that time? I just got it, never saw it before thou. Responce below. > >> >> * Power from installations at Solar system > >> > > >> >Beamed power or fuel launchers have the advantage of offloading the need > >to > >> >carry the heavy fuel (and power systems) with the ship. That improves the > >> >ships power to weight ration significantly. But the systems are difficult > >to > >> >do, limit range, and don't seem to help us to slow down. > >> > >> Also they have a not so good efficiency. (A big part of the beam just flies > >> along the ship without being used.) > > > >Thats true of beamed power, not launched fuel. > > The advantage of a lower ship:fuel ratio is that it needs less energy. If > one decides to launch that fuel instead of adding it to the ship from the > start, there is not much gain: Although the weight of launched fuel is less, > there is a large extra amount of energy needed to launch that fuel. > It follows from calculations that the total gain is not so big as you would > have thought. But what you have added is a complicated launch method. You keep missing the point that the ship doesn't need to be generating the power to accellerate the fuel. Tus it would need as much fuel for power. The over all energy expenditure of the systems is irrelavant. ============================= the lost letter =========== > Timoty replies to Kelly: > > >Fusion is an extreamly usefull general purpose technology. Anti-matter is > >far less so, and far more dangerous on the scale we would need. I wouldn't > >expect a lot of anti-mater ships in 50 years. > > You shouldn't see anti-matter as a fuel, but more as efficient energy > storage. Why is anti-matter not a fuel? Because we have to make it. > Coparing these two is like comparing a petrol car with an electric car. The > energy for an electric car has to come from other fuels. Although the weight > advantage with electric cars may not be evident yet there are other > advantages. One of the advantages is the independancy of the origin of the > fuel source. If it is fusion, fission or solar energy all are easely > converted to electric energy which is relative easy to handle. > So what car-batteries are for us now, anti-matter will be for fast spacevessels. What electric cars are now, is exotic impractical and dangerous (and oddly not particularly clean). Fusion fuel can be mined and stored fairly easily. Anti-mater is a nightmare to hold in quantity, and in our case difficult to use efficently. Again certainly beyond the tech of 2050. > >Oh, that would be beyond the resources and tech of the project. Also it seem > >a waste of time. Sort of novelty project for the record books. With no > >practical reason to stay perminently there the bases would be prefab ghost > >towns. Future missions to other solar systems would have to be based out of > >dynamic, growing, large scale, civilizations. Not out of a staging camp in > >the middle of nowhere. > > If it really is to get a entry in the record books and not much more that > would really be a shame of all resources. If people really want to do that, > I see the end of humanity near. Would you say the same about missions to the Earths poles? Fairly common and trivially cheap compared to this. A far, far more habitable environment than any alien planet is likly to offer. Yet no one has attempted to colonize Antartica. What would be the point? > About growing civilizations, I don't think that western cultures will expand > that much. In the US the birthrate is 2.05 per female, in Europe it's about > 1.8. So that would mean that population will decrease. > The mean reason that Earth's population is still increasing are the less > developed countries which have birthrates of 4 to 7. > I think that families in developed countries have less children because of > the care these children need (financial but also social/tutorial). > So this means that we probably never need to go to other places. Well I wasn't refering to growing in population (and actually you have all thouse birth rates to high), but growing technically, economically, etc... Obviously games like these are only for the very rich. > But if we want to explore and discover new places we may want outposts at > many places. So building small colonies would not be that crazy then. > These colonies would have two purposes, the outpost and a research function. > There would probably many researchers that like to check a foreign planet. A base I could agree to, but not a colony. They are too isolated and to dependant on that long supply line from earth. Thou they are rich in resorces (ore and fuel). Without the infastructure and personel to exploit it, thats irrelavant. Without something big to attract major numbers of people here (which you seem to agree) they would stay to smal to be an independant population. At best they'ld be people rotated back to earth with the next supply run. I keep coming back to the isolation. It takes to long to get a ship out there and back, and costs too much to send it for this to be a colony or even a sustainable outpost. > >Forever? Do you expect earth to keep funding these people in this base > >forever? With continuous supply flights from sol to keep them going? We > >couldn't even keep the moon program going for more than a few months after it > >planted its flag. > > After some time they could have build a small colony with all facilities > needed to live and work. The energy they need comes from TC itself. So Earth > would need funding them, but since they have build a "nice" place in the > middle of an interesting place they may be interested to hear something of them. > You may argue that building a colony is difficult in an alien environment, > but by that time we will have some experience in building things on the Moon > or Mars. Moon and mars are also unsuitable (low gravity). More important you keep expecting them to live off the land. Thats like droping a hundred people in kansas with a small truck load of gear each, allow no trade with the out side, and expect them to build a ultra-modern city. Not likely. > >> Why don't you expect them to do that? I still don't see that as suicide, > >> they can live perfectly healthy lives. > > > >Thats like condeming somone to spend the rest of their lives in an > >apartment/shoping mall! Good researchers will want to retire or go on to > >other projects. Not sit around in a worn out ship, in the middle of nowhere, > >with nothing to do. > > Other projects, they have all the choice they could have. Who's going to > tell them that they cannot do what they want. The only limits are the ones > of themselves. Again you seem to be assuming they have tremendous resources of equipment and time. They would be extreamly limited, and given the dangerous nature of their mission. They are probably going to be losing stuff (people and equipment) fairly quickly. Without Earth benificent supply runs. They are going to be in bad shape fairly soon. > The people going there aren't the people who really want to retire, these > are people that are born for exploration and research. (They really exist) > My guess is that they wouldn't sit all the time in some ship or compartment, > but that they would allow themselves to go to the planets surface (in > spacesuits). Most of them will never be able to go to the planets. After a while none of them will be able to as the equipment runs out. If they have to plan on a long stay, they'll have to curtail exploration fairly quickly in order to save the equip for more practical uses. > >Sorry, no. In large projects like this the sum of the parts is the lowest > >common denominator of everyone. It becoming a big issue in the U.S. The > >more people you get on a project, the less energy and inovation is avalible. > > Things get bogged down, lost in committe misunderstanding, ecetera. Costs > >can go up to hundreds of times what a small tight group could do it for. > > And do you know why this happens, because everyone wants his own share and > no one is prepared to accept an idea of an other because that will mean a > loss of personal profit. No its more fundamental than that. Theirs just too many people. The more people the more corrdination efforts. For example I worked in the Space Station Freedom headquarters along with a few thousand other people. NONE of us actually worked on the space station. We worked to coordinate information between all the groups. The more people, the harder it is to keep everyone informed. On a big goverment project, everyone has to know what everyone else is doing. The more agencies, the more paths of interaction. Since governments tend to demand everything is monitored to the finest detail. The vast bulk (maybe 80%-90%) of the group effort is in meeting and reports to keep everyone else informed. > >Thats one of the reasons that over the last decade or two, NASA has been > >incapable of trying, or developing, cutting edge technologies or programs. > > Maybe even one country is too big? Certainly one buracracy is! > >> Exploration isn't much fun? What else drives people to such far places... > > > >Curiosity, greed, a chalenge, desire for fame or acomplishment. Exploration > >is generally horiobly uncomfortable and life threatening. But its very > >chalenging, and its atractive to know your one of the few to ever do > >something, know something, etc... Even if you know its killing you. > > Sorry, I had a more lossy idea about the word exploration than you did, I > meant approximately what you wrote. > > >Like an anthro professor my wife had. He loved studying aborigional tribes > >in the backwaters of the Amazon, but he frely admitted everyone who does it > >expect that they've paid with decades off their life expectancy. > > So that means a return trip won't be necessary. These people all wanted to come back. They wanted to go back out to the bush again, but not forever, and not to die. > >Since your dealing with radically differnt life forms. Its unlikely the old > >rules, or solutions, would hold. We mostly will be starting from scratch. > > After all, we have no experience with alien biospheres. > > I doubt if they are so radically different, all lifeforms have to abide the > laws of nature. Maybe some of them have found tricks that have not been > found on Earth but that is why we are going there. > And still if we know what doesn't work the chances of finding > something that does work are enlarged. Why not radically differnt? Life on earth is all based on a couple of basic chemical and anitomical tricks. There isn't anything special about those tricks. MANY others would work as well. I imagine most life out their will be radically different from that here, and may have a few times as long as Earth had to develop. > >We're in a serous bind. The tech we can expect in 50 years isn't enough for > >a T.C. flight. Or all but the most modest interstellar flights. NOr would > >they be that likely to be interested in footing a huge program. Yet if we > >back up the date by a hundred years we could be much more confident that they > >could do it, and do it affordably, but we wouldn't have any credible idea > >how! > > So maybe we should say "a priori" that certain techniques are > available. And discuss how and why these could be used. I suggested that a few months ago and got no interest. I suppose it moves this project from a serious attempt to figure out if we could do it in 2050. To a science fiction club. > >Put another way. Are we that likely to be so afraid of human extinction, > >that we'll rush to do such a project in 50 years? > > You can never tell :) people are worring about many things (like asteroids > colliding with Earth or the Asimov :)) > If humanity ever becomes extinct, it will be likely that it is not because > of natural disasters. Well nature is our worst enemy, but then we are very hard to kill. More to the point we could built fleets of O'Niel sized space colonies here for far less than this project. And they wouldn't have the resorce, access, and communication limits of a star colony. > >Oh certainly. The united states gets several million of them a year! But, > >another star doesn't offer much opportunity. It isolated, expensive, no > >markets to go to, few resorces that you can get at. No home world to go to > >on vacation to. Your very dependand on the supply line from Sol, and their > >for far less independant than you would be in a colony in Sol. > > You indeed can't go on vacation, and it probably never will have more than > 1000 inhabitants for the first 100 years. But as every place where people > live, they will adapt themselves and the environment. Not all people want to > become rich by selling stuff, a lot of them just want a place to life as > they like with the "sky" as the only limit. As I said before dependancy is > only a short time (if at all), once there is TC-light and gravity they can > grow food just as on Earth. So the first necessaries of life should not be > that difficult. I would say just the oposite. Life on a T.C. colony will be hard and very limited. The planets would be ignored, and the platform colony would need a lot of work to equip and maintain. They would be far more dependant and under the control of whoever runs the supply flights, then a similar colony in Sol space. > >Also, the kind of people we would send on such a ship. Would be the ellete > >that would have a lot of opportunity back home. The people who want a new > >start, wouldn't be sent on the ship. > > If you are 25 to 30 how sure can you be that you are a member of that elite. If you didn't already have the credientials,you wouldn't be offered a ride. (You would be stunned at the credentials NASA can require for astrounauts that only get to fly every yeear or three. On the other hand the turn over rate among the astronuate is pretty high. They are highly competative people. After they do this, they want new chalenges and get bored. > Also it doesn't have to be a new start but a first very defiant start. ?? Defiant of what? Defiannce doesn't work very well when you are dependant on others. From popserver Sat Jan 13 04:23:33 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["15236" "Sat" "13" "January" "1996" "01:42:17" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "293" "Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id QAA07547 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 16:41:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA08539 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 13 Jan 1996 01:42:11 +0100 Message-Id: <199601130042.AA08539@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com Subject: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 01:42:17 +0100 Timothy replies to Kelly: >Oh, I still say there is no significant difference between a suicide flight, >and a flight where the crew are abandoned with enough supplies to last them >their life. I am frankly shocked that you and Tim could seriously suggest >such a horrific and ruthless option. Thats like sending a team to antartica, >on a one way trip to the pole with no resuply and recovery runs! "Hey guys, >go there, explore, radio back what you find, and here's 50 years supplies and >parts for you to live out you life with." Summarizing what I write in this letter: - We have to discuss what is necessary for a small colony. - You can't compare Antarctica with a new planet full of life. - We (or I) don't see it as dropping people without any regard, but as a well organized lifetime adventure. - Do things break down or get lost faster than one can repair or replace them? >This really isnt a problem Tim. All large systems have to distribute their >strructural loads amoung enough structure to get the job done. The shuttle >tanks for example weight 30 tons, yet can carry about 750 tons of fuel at >multiple G accelerations, and provide expensive structural bracing for the >fources of the attached solid boosters and orbiter. Our starship design >would be comparativly trivial. For these shuttle tanks the bottoms have the highest pressure while the top has a low pressure. (It could be left open, at least for the matter of pressure). So the weight of the tanks isn't the main clue but the size of the bottom is (assuming that every part of the bottom gets the same pressure). So a tank with a large bottom and the same weight has much less pressure at that bottom. (The total force stays the same, the surface gets bigger). So it would be wise to build the walls of the tanks thick at the bottom and thinner at the top. Also the welds are more likely to break at the bottom than at the top. What I'm trying to say is thus that the bottom part is most vulnerable, For the pressure at the bottom of the shuttle tanks, I can estimate: (assuming a 3.5 metre diametre of the bottom) (750+30 tons)*3g/(10 m^2)=830*3000=2.34E6 Pascal That means it is still 170 times less than the maximum pressure (about 4E8 Pa) So a large and heavy spaceship could be build but the load-surface should be large enough. The load surface is in fact equal to the surface of the ends of the beams that are connected to the engine. So taking long beams makes no difference, only taking thick beams does. Now where I was going to, if the ship becomes very large and the engine surface too small there isn't enough support-surface and the thing can't work. I realize of course that it takes a big ship to make these problems real. But how big will the support-surface of the engine for the Asimov be? 300 square metres (and engine with a radius of 10 metres) would mean that the Asimov could weigh about 3E10 kg. >>-----These extra engines should NOT be placed at the back >> (that would not change the problem) but along the side of it. > >Sorry they have to be at the back. Otherwise they would be blasting the >sides of the ship. Maybe a cone shaped vessel with the largest radius in front (anti-streamlined) would work. How had you planned to connect the torus-shaped hab-rail to the ship? The loads of a 100 metre arm should be multiplied by 100! >You keep missing the point that the ship doesn't need to be generating the >power to accellerate the fuel. Tus it would need as much fuel for power. > The over all energy expenditure of the systems is irrelavant. It is indeed clear to me that the ship does need less power, because it doesn't need to accelerate its own fuel. But if the over all expenditure of the system is irrelevant, why is it such a problem to accelerate a 1:1000000 ship:fuel combination? Such a ship would accelerate, it just needs a lot of engines (or one very powerful one). By the way I still don't see how you possibly can say that the amount of energy needed doesn't matter. (Yes, I know as long as we have no working method...) ============================================================================ >What electric cars are now, is exotic impractical and dangerous (and oddly >not particularly clean). Fusion fuel can be mined and stored fairly easily. > Anti-mater is a nightmare to hold in quantity, and in our case difficult to >use efficently. Again certainly beyond the tech of 2050. Yes, but so is 1E18 Watt during a few years. (You would create the same energy in a day as the Sun would in a second) OK, enough about anti-matter, I hope I've made clear what the advantages are if we can use this techniques savely. I accept that 2050 will not be ready for anti-matter but I also have strong doubts if any technique can handle the high power we need. What I expect to happen in the futere is that anti-matter will find its way at the same time that such enormous power finds it way. >Would you say the same about missions to the Earths poles? Fairly common and >trivially cheap compared to this. A far, far more habitable environment than >any alien planet is likly to offer. Yet no one has attempted to colonize >Antartica. What would be the point? On the poles you won't find a whole new planet full of life. If we indeed knew there were only a few boring planets with nothing more than dust, we would probably go somewhere else or not go at all. >A base I could agree to, but not a colony. They are too isolated and to >dependant on that long supply line from earth. Thou they are rich in >resorces (ore and fuel). Without the infastructure and personel to exploit >it, thats irrelavant. Without something big to attract major numbers of >people here (which you seem to agree) they would stay to smal to be an >independant population. At best they'ld be people rotated back to earth with >the next supply run. How many people should there be for an independant colony? I think 100 people should make a living possible. You indeed cannot expect large factories, but these aren't necessary since there are not many people. >> You may argue that building a colony is difficult in an alien environment, >> but by that time we will have some experience in building things on the >> Moon or Mars. > >Moon and mars are also unsuitable (low gravity). Yes, but they will have build structures for people working there for a few months. >More important you keep >expecting them to live off the land. Thats like droping a hundred people in >kansas with a small truck load of gear each, allow no trade with the out >side, and expect them to build a ultra-modern city. I'm not sure I know what Kansas is like, but surely if they had some habitation-modules from the year 2050 they could prosper. The modules have a self sustained climate, their only input is energy (from a small anti-matter-tank :) or just plain old solar-panels). Not only its climate is self-sustained but also vegetables and other food would would be grown. So now that you have your first-aid life support for one or two persons in say 300 cubic metres, you want something to do. OK in Kansas you probably could do nothing at all, but on TC you might want to get out. So what you need more is a bunch of basic construction machines and ore-extracters. These indeed are the things that use the most room and weigh the most. But they also could be used by more than one person. Now I'm interested to know what would be the minimal amount of machines to start at a reasonable level. (say the level of our current technology, meaning pentium-computers, Scanning microscopes etc.) I've not a good idea of what to take, do you? (Has this subject been discussed before?) - Life sustaining habitats. - Nano tech would be a great help for ore extracters - Machines to make simple metal, plastic forms. A lot of these machines we probably need on the Asimov during its 25 year mission, most computer won't last for 25 years continuous work. Taking with us a lot of reserve chips seems a bit too simplistic to me. (Even the food growing-machines are nessecary, eating 10 year old food all the time is yuck) >Again you seem to be assuming they have tremendous resources of equipment and >time. They would be extreamly limited, and given the dangerous nature of >their mission. They are probably going to be losing stuff (people and >equipment) fairly quickly. Without Earth benificent supply runs. They are >going to be in bad shape fairly soon. How fast are they loosing too much supply in a two-way mission? Even such a mission should stay there for about 10 years researching planets. They will be loosing stuff but if it goes in the rate you are predicting, then every mission is suicide. >> The people going there aren't the people who really want to retire, these >> are people that are born for exploration and research. (They really exist) >> My guess is that they wouldn't sit all the time in some ship or >> compartment, >> but that they would allow themselves to go to the planets surface (in >> spacesuits). > >Most of them will never be able to go to the planets. After a while none of >them will be able to as the equipment runs out. If they have to plan on a >long stay, they'll have to curtail exploration fairly quickly in order to >save the equip for more practical uses. That may indeed be the case, but a 10 year exploration with 100 people is hardly enough to do any real research of a complete solarsystem. Not to mention refueling or building complete beaming-arrays (only advanced nano-tech or anti-matter might overcome that problem). >No its more fundamental than that. Theirs just too many people. The more >people the more corrdination efforts. For example I worked in the Space >Station Freedom headquarters along with a few thousand other people. NONE of >us actually worked on the space station. We worked to coordinate information >between all the groups. The more people, the harder it is to keep everyone >informed. On a big goverment project, everyone has to know what everyone >else is doing. The more agencies, the more paths of interaction. Since >governments tend to demand everything is monitored to the finest detail. The >vast bulk (maybe 80%-90%) of the group effort is in meeting and reports to >keep everyone else informed. What if everyone informed themselves? It's like the internet, people make information available, othera read it and if they don't agree, they discuss it with the author, after discussing they come to a common conclusion (if not, that's because of stubbornness) which is made public again. Also not all people need to know about everything in such a big project, there are many specialized groups, but they should not loose the survey of the project. >> Maybe even one country is too big? > >Certainly one buracracy is! Then there may be a big problem, because such a big project would need a lot of people. >These people all wanted to come back. They wanted to go back out to the bush >again, but not forever, and not to die. Going to the bush doesn't take 5 to 7 years plus 5+ years of preparation. I only wonder those people come back, do you know that? I can lively imagine that there are also people who want to stay simply because the find that special lifestyle so fascinating. >Why not radically differnt? Life on earth is all based on a couple of basic >chemical and anitomical tricks. There isn't anything special about those >tricks. MANY others would work as well. I imagine most life out their will >be radically different from that here, and may have a few times as long as >Earth had to develop. The main tricks are based on storing and retreiving energy in and from molecules, that energy comes from the sun or from planet-heat (vulcanos). Are there many easy reactions that can do that back and forth. (a cycle reaction is probably to unlikely) On Earth that reaction is H2O+CO2 <--> O2+CnHm by the use of sunlight. Then there are aerobic creatures, that rely on (I hope I'm right) Sulphur or phosphor oxides for energy, but that is a single way reaction, once the sulphuroxide is used it is not reused. Also this substance is not likely to be available in large quantities for several billion years. I'm not sure how many basic trick theres are, but I think it would be very likely that the alien creatures use oxigen and CnHm as main food. Assuming this basic trick, a lot of conditions are already set. And if the basic conditions are set, so are the creatures that spring from it. >I suggested that a few months ago and got no interest. I suppose it moves >this project from a serious attempt to figure out if we could do it in 2050. > To a science fiction club. Then we should end the discussion about engines with the conclusion that only exotic fuels and/or enormous powerstations could make the trip possible. The techniques needed are only in a early theoretical stage and the size of what is necessary is (almost) beyond imagination and reasonabless. >> You can never tell :) people are worring about many things (like asteroids >> colliding with Earth or the Asimov :)) >> If humanity ever becomes extinct, it will be likely that it is not because >> of natural disasters. > >Well nature is our worst enemy, but then we are very hard to kill. Even on a planet 10 ly away? >More to the point we could built fleets of O'Niel sized space colonies here >for far less than this project. And they wouldn't have the resorce, access, >and communication limits of a star colony. You say these colonies are dependant on Earth, what if such a disaster happens, then they won't have much resources any more. >I would say just the oposite. Life on a T.C. colony will be hard and very >limited. The planets would be ignored, and the platform colony would need a >lot of work to equip and maintain. They would be far more dependant and >under the control of whoever runs the supply flights, then a similar colony >in Sol space. At sol there can't be planet based colonies because of the wrong gravity. (only Venus has a comparable g but it's a bit hot out there) You keep saying that it takes a lot of effort to keep the colony working, I wonder if that is true: Do you need to repair a lot in your house? (not a personal question) OK, a house on a barren planet would be different, but I cannot believe that everyone is constantly busy repairing things. >If you didn't already have the credientials,you wouldn't be offered a ride. > (You would be stunned at the credentials NASA can require for astrounauts >that only get to fly every yeear or three. On the other hand the turn over >rate among the astronuate is pretty high. They are highly competative >people. After they do this, they want new chalenges and get bored. Probably the normal astronauts are suited for such a trip. If they indeed want new challanges every few years, they are probably on the wrong trip. This trip is a carreer for life, even if you make it a two-way trip. >> Also it doesn't have to be a new start but a first very defiant start. > >?? Defiant of what? Defiannce doesn't work very well when you are dependant >on others. I think I meant challenging, those damn dictionaries.. Timothy From popserver Sat Jan 13 04:23:43 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1324" "Fri" "12" "January" "1996" "19:57:30" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "34" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: David@interworld.com Received: from www.interworld.com (interworld.com [165.254.130.4]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id QAA08679 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 16:57:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from hal ([165.254.130.90]) by www.interworld.com (post.office MTA v1.9.1 ID# 0-11464) with SMTP id AAA47; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 20:01:27 -0500 Message-ID: <30F7037A.DFD@interworld.com> Organization: InterWorld, Really Cool Stuff Division X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0b5 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199601130042.AA08539@student.utwente.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David@interworld.com (David Levine) To: Timothy van der Linden CC: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 19:57:30 -0500 Just a quick note: Many people seem to be saying "What's the point of going there? We don't know for sure that there's anything interesting, and this is going to be hellishly expensive, if it's even possible." If this is going through anybody's mind, please remember that this is a thought experiment. We're trying to decide how we could go to the stars, if we wanted to. Yes, right now we probably don't want to. But assume we did. Assume that several planets have been detected at our target star, and spectral analysis even reveals the presence of chlorophyll, or some other definite indicator of the existance of life of some kind. Of course, if such a situation arose, we probably WOULD try to get something out there ASAP... but it would most likely be an unmanned probe. And while I think everyone agrees this would be a more sensible course of action, it's not as inherently interesting as a manned mission. And unmanned missions have been designed many times before. Manned missions have only been looked at sporadically. So let's assume that there is some reason to send people as well. I'll turn this "excuse" over to someone else... Anyway, remember: this is a thought experiment. Why we are going is not as important as HOW we are going - is it possible, and if so, how could it be done? -David From popserver Sat Jan 13 18:04:00 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1273" "Sat" "13" "January" "1996" "15:49:08" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "29" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id GAA08852 for ; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 06:47:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA14525 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 13 Jan 1996 15:49:00 +0100 Message-Id: <199601131449.AA14525@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 15:49:08 +0100 Timothy replies to David: >And while I think everyone agrees this would be a more >sensible course of action, it's not as inherently >interesting as a manned mission. And unmanned >missions have been designed many times before. Manned >missions have only been looked at sporadically. An unmanned mission has two possibilities, a not very extended survey of TC using technology of today. Or a more extended survey using the benefits of complicated AI. But since we don't know how fast AI will develop, we cannot say a lot of senseful things about it. >Anyway, remember: this is a thought experiment. Why >we are going is not as important as HOW we are going - is >it possible, and if so, how could it be done? Yes I know that the how aspect is most important but the reasons for discussing the WHY-aspect were: - A one-way trip would be much easier than a two-way trip. - The purpose of the trip has influence on the kind of crew and the load, which in turn may have influence on the design of the ship. - At the moment we are a bit in an impasse as for propulsion methods. - We wanted to know where possible fundings could come from. - Personally I thought it was an interesting question. Certainly while some of us don't agree with each other at all. Timothy From popserver Sun Jan 14 03:17:22 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["7815" "Sat" "13" "January" "1996" "19:51:11" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "149" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id RAA12586 for ; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 17:49:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Sat, 13 Jan 96 19:51:12 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199601130042.AA08539@student.utwente.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: Timothy van der Linden cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 19:51:11 -0600 (CST) Kevin wishes to interrupt: > Timothy replies to Kelly: > > >Oh, I still say there is no significant difference between a suicide flight, > >and a flight where the crew are abandoned with enough supplies to last them > >their life. I am frankly shocked that you and Tim could seriously suggest > >such a horrific and ruthless option. Thats like sending a team to antartica, > >on a one way trip to the pole with no resuply and recovery runs! "Hey guys, > >go there, explore, radio back what you find, and here's 50 years supplies and > >parts for you to live out you life with." > > Summarizing what I write in this letter: > - We have to discuss what is necessary for a small colony. > - You can't compare Antarctica with a new planet full of life. > - We (or I) don't see it as dropping people without any regard, but as a well > organized lifetime adventure. > - Do things break down or get lost faster than one can repair or replace them? Okay, Okay, I think we've all heard enough of this argument. Neither of you is going to change the other's mind. If all we can do is figure out how to send a one-way mission, then I think we can assume that it will never be used until someone comes up with a valid reason to send so many people off on a no-return mission. What's a good reason? Why, one that would attract enough qualified (intelectually and psychologically) volunteers of course. I think we all agree that it would be a good _idea_ to have a return flight, The question, is whether it is possible or not. i think it is, A one-way mission would only be sent in the direst of planetary emergencies (sun going nova, hostile aliens etc.) > >What electric cars are now, is exotic impractical and dangerous (and oddly > >not particularly clean). Fusion fuel can be mined and stored fairly easily. > > Anti-mater is a nightmare to hold in quantity, and in our case difficult to > >use efficently. Again certainly beyond the tech of 2050. > > Yes, but so is 1E18 Watt during a few years. (You would create the same > energy in a day as the Sun would in a second) Impractical and expensive, yes, but there are no tech dificulties. you would not be "creating" the energy, but only re-directing a tiny fraction of the sun's output. I would say it thusly "you would be using 1/3600 of the suns total output for a period of 2 years" After that, the energy could be used right here in Sol System for any other project that was desired. > OK, enough about anti-matter, I hope I've made clear what the advantages are > if we can use this techniques savely. I accept that 2050 will not be ready > for anti-matter but I also have strong doubts if any technique can handle > the high power we need. What I expect to happen in the futere is that > anti-matter will find its way at the same time that such enormous power > finds it way. > As to anti-matter and large energy requirements -- I think it would be far more useful to figure out how we can send the most mass for the least energy. Tim, if you want to postulate anti-matter, go ahead. give some rough idea of how you intend to make it and store it, and then let us argue about when we might expect it. I for one, will postulate beamed energy, and once I have a workable system, I will go about estimating the size and manufacturing time of the requesite array. same with Kelly's design, come up with a viable method of stopping and tell us how long it would take to come up with the tech. (or lhow long it will take to pre-load the decell track) Then when we have several methods, we can rank them according to speed of travel, tech level, and other factors, to come up with a viable method. Tim, i have a question for you regarding anti-matter, how do you intend to direct the "exhaust"? as I see it, anti-hydrogen would combine with normal hydrogen (scooped?) and this would result in a burst of Gamma rays in _all_ directions. how will you harness the momentum of these photons? assuming you can make and store the anti-hydrogen, how many Kg of anti-matter would you need to get to the target star? do we carry the return trip fuel with us? or try to make it from the target? if we are going to make it, what percentage of energy can be turned into anti-matter? (and you can't assum 100% eff. either, or then I can assume 100% eff. solar arrays and microwave converters ;) ) and where does the energy come from if you intend to make it? (one idea for storage of anti-matter, start with anti-hydrogen,made from slamming high-speed protons into a stationary target, and use fusion to work your way up to anti-iron does anti-matter give energy when it fuses with anti matter? i think it must. when you have a quantity of anti-iron, magnetize it and your storage problems are solved. many of these technologies probably won't be avail until 2250 AD :( ) > > I'm not sure I know what Kansas is like, but surely if they had some > habitation-modules from the year 2050 they could prosper. > The modules have a self sustained climate, their only input is energy (from > a small anti-matter-tank :) or just plain old solar-panels). Not only its > climate is self-sustained but also vegetables and other food would would be > grown. So now that you have your first-aid life support for one or two > persons in say 300 cubic metres, you want something to do. OK in Kansas you > probably could do nothing at all, but on TC you might want to get out. So ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I thought you said you didn't know what Kansas was like. ;) (for information, it is totally flat, totally farming, and totally boring) > That may indeed be the case, but a 10 year exploration with 100 people is > hardly enough to do any real research of a complete solarsystem. Not to > mention refueling or building complete beaming-arrays (only advanced > nano-tech or anti-matter might overcome that problem). > One of the implicit assumptions I'm going to use is that some form of self-replicating machinery is possible. not nano-tech, and not self-directed either. I'm assuming that a robot can be made that can make a copy of itself given: premade circuit board (pentium level motherboard with cameras and wireless modems) and ready made ores. that is, some other machine refines the ores and gives our robot "ingots" of aluminum or silicon or whatever else it needs. The robot needs to do the following autonomuos tasks: 1) shape metal into any shape (most NC millers can do this today) 2) make a 1 meter by 1 meter solar cell from a solid ingot of silicon and proper doping materials (they work in vacumn, so much bulky equipment won't be needed 3) scoop or mine ore and bring it to a central location 4) wind motors, connect wires and other tasks required to make a copy of itself (note, while theoretically, one robot could make a copy of itself, in pactice, many would be assigned the task of turning out more robots A Semi-autonomous computer would direct all the robots, while humans would be available for debugging, and initial set-up. an ore processing machine will be required as well as constant oversight by one or more crew. these would then be able to first, turn out many copies of themselves, and then secondly, they could begin turning out the hectares of solar panels needed for the maser transmitters. the same system would work in Sol, as would work in TC This would solve the problem of super-large collecting arrays, by allowing geometric growth of the machinery needed to manufacture it. Kevin who _makes_ glass beads, but doesn't brag about it in off topic groups ;) just kidding Ric. From popserver Sun Jan 14 18:57:04 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["7606" "Sun" "14" "January" "1996" "19:53:55" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "151" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id KAA28129 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 10:53:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA00771 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 14 Jan 1996 19:53:37 +0100 Message-Id: <199601141853.AA00771@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 19:53:55 +0100 Timothy replies to Kevin: >Okay, Okay, I think we've all heard enough of this argument. Neither of >you is going to change the other's mind. If all we can do is figure out >how to send a one-way mission, then I think we can assume that it will >never be used until someone comes up with a valid reason to send so many >people off on a no-return mission. What's a good reason? Why, one that >would attract enough qualified (intelectually and psychologically) >volunteers of course. I think we all agree that it would be a good >_idea_ to have a return flight, The question, is whether it is possible >or not. i think it is, A one-way mission would only be sent in the >direst of planetary emergencies (sun going nova, hostile aliens etc.) You shouldn't say that neither one is changing their mind. I'm certainly not argueing to enforce my ideas on those of Kelly, I'm trying to figure out why we do so fundamentally disagree. Now after a few letters, I think it is getting clearer were our differences are. If you don't like to read these discussions that's fine, but I sometimes have the idea that discussions are too easely stopped, so that in the end both (or more) members still disagree and that means that the whole discussion was done for nothing. >boost colony (ship/worlds) to other systems?> Probably not, the Sun would have grown too large before you could use its nova. I think the increase of the Sun's radiation will not be that significant. >Impractical and expensive, yes, but there are no tech dificulties. you >would not be "creating" the energy, but only re-directing a tiny fraction >of the sun's output. I would say it thusly "you would be using 1/3600 of >the suns total output for a period of 2 years" After that, the energy >could be used right here in Sol System for any other project that was >desired. I'm sorry, I'm not sure how I got to the numbers but what I wrote between braces is totally wrong, you would need about 1/(1E8) part of the Sun's total output. Meaning a solar panel with a 1000 kilometre radius near Earth. >As to anti-matter and large energy requirements -- I think it would be >far more useful to figure out how we can send the most mass for the least >energy. That would always be anti-matter or a beam that is very tight. >Tim, i have a question for you regarding anti-matter, how do you intend >to direct the "exhaust"? as I see it, anti-hydrogen would combine with >normal hydrogen (scooped?) and this would result in a burst of Gamma rays >in _all_ directions. how will you harness the momentum of these photons? >assuming you can make and store the anti-hydrogen, how many Kg of >anti-matter would you need to get to the target star? do we carry the >return trip fuel with us? or try to make it from the target? if we are >going to make it, what percentage of energy can be turned into >anti-matter? (and you can't assum 100% eff. either, or then I can assume >100% eff. solar arrays and microwave converters ;) ) and where does the >energy come from if you intend to make it? I haven't a complete oversight, but can tell you what I have in mind: 1. Matter is injected by matter, so that the photons collide with normal matter. This matter is heated and will escape at the place of the lowest pressure, the backside. This anti-matter engine needs more matter than antimatter. (I think in this case the comparison is big with chemical or fusion engines) 2. When an electron and anti-electron collide from almost rest, then 2 photons of 511 KeV (2400 nm) are formed, so this means that photons of resonable equally wavelength are created. So that would allow some kind of mirror to reflect them to the back. To be honest sometimes there are 3 or more photons formed with a total energy of 1022 KeV but all have different wavelengths. Now the problem is how to get only (anti)electrons and no protons or other bigger particles. I haven't an aswer to that, so for now this method will not work. You also ask how efficient it will be, that is hard for me to estimate, but like most engines it has to be efficient otherwise it will melt away. This seems like an easy way out, but I think it is true. So what it is important that the products of the antimatter reaction are all discarded and not absorbed in the engine. If the end-products are controlable this may not be too hard. >(one idea for storage of anti-matter, start with anti-hydrogen,made from >slamming high-speed protons into a stationary target, and use fusion to work >your way up to anti-iron does anti-matter give energy when it fuses >with anti matter? i think it must. when you have a quantity of anti-iron, >magnetize it and your storage problems are solved. many of these >technologies probably won't be avail until 2250 AD :( ) You could see anti-matter just as ordinary matter. All physic laws that are valid for matter do hold for anti-matter. Thus fusion would work. In fact Hydrogen is also a metal, it just has a very low melting point, I don't know however what its magnetic properties are. Also all materials have magnetic properties, though most don't have such a strong and autonomic fields as iron. So all materials will be attracted to or repelled from a magnetic field only some much more than others. >I thought you said you didn't know what Kansas was like. ;) >(for information, it is totally flat, totally farming, and totally boring) I had some feeling about what it should be like... >One of the implicit assumptions I'm going to use is that some form of >self-replicating machinery is possible. not nano-tech, and not >self-directed either. I'm assuming that a robot can be made that can >make a copy of itself given: premade circuit board (pentium level >motherboard with cameras and wireless modems) and ready made ores. that is, >some other machine refines the ores and gives our robot "ingots" of >aluminum or silicon or whatever else it needs. >The robot needs to do the following autonomuos tasks: I like the idea about such robots, especially because you could design them to build habitat units, or is that too difficult? >1) shape metal into any shape (most NC millers can do this today) What does NC mean? >2) make a 1 meter by 1 meter solar cell from a solid ingot of silicon and >proper doping materials (they work in vacumn, so much bulky equipment >won't be needed Even if needed (because of dust attracted and distributed by the ore-extracters) these vacuum pumps should not be that bulky. >these would then be able to first, turn out many copies of themselves, >and then secondly, they could begin turning out the hectares of solar >panels needed for the maser transmitters. the same system would work in >Sol, as would work in TC That would mean roughly 1E8 hectares, or about 3 hectares per second if you want to do it in 10 years :| The 1E7 masers would need to be build by robots too! This may need more complicate fabricating processes than solarcels. How much work can one robot unit do? Say 1m^2/second. So that means about 3E4 robots are needed. How long would one robot need to replicate itself? Say 3 days. Using exponetial growth: 2^T=3E4 --> T=173 --> 3*T=519 days needed to make 3E4 robots. If I use these numbers your plan could succeed. But are they realistic? 3 hectares per second seem so much. (You could really see it grow) Just a note: Would super conductors be any use to us? In free-space (not near a Sun) the temperatures are ideal for super conductors. Timothy From popserver Sun Jan 14 19:07:17 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1095" "Sun" "14" "January" "1996" "20:04:51" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "24" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id LAA28617 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 11:03:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA01538 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 14 Jan 1996 20:04:42 +0100 Message-Id: <199601141904.AA01538@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 20:04:51 +0100 Timothy replies to David: >I'm sorry, Timothy - I didn't make myself clear enough. >All I meant was that it seemed like every now and then >people were thinking "Why, really, are we doing this >when we're not even sure of the reason for the trip... >We haven't even explored our own solar system yet..." >or any number of other lines of thought. I just didn't >want people too discouraged. Of COURSE it's an interesting >question, and I certainly realize the impact a one- or >two-way trip would have on the mission. I guess all I'm >really saying is that we should pick some reason for >going (even if it means deciding between several possibilities >at random), stick with it and say "How would we do the >trip assuming THIS is the reason we're going?" and not >worry too much about why that particular reason is the one >chosen. OK, I was never assuming we would not go, I see it more as a reality that we would go, I only have doubts about the date. (2050 seems to near) I haven't really noticed others thinking different from me. I'm wondering who gave you that idea... Greetings Tim From popserver Sun Jan 14 21:56:51 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["9126" "Sun" "14" "January" "1996" "15:23:13" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "200" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id NAA05387 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 13:21:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Sun, 14 Jan 96 15:23:13 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199601141853.AA00771@student.utwente.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: Timothy van der Linden cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 15:23:13 -0600 (CST) On Sun, 14 Jan 1996, Timothy van der Linden wrote: > Timothy replies to Kevin: > > >Okay, Okay, I think we've all heard enough of this argument. Neither of > >you is going to change the other's mind. If all we can do is figure out > > You shouldn't say that neither one is changing their mind. I'm certainly not > argueing to enforce my ideas on those of Kelly, I'm trying to figure out why > we do so fundamentally disagree. Now after a few letters, I think it is > getting clearer were our differences are. > If you don't like to read these discussions that's fine, but I sometimes > have the idea that discussions are too easely stopped, so that in the end > both (or more) members still disagree and that means that the whole > discussion was done for nothing. Oh, you two can go on argueing if you want to, don't let me stop you. I just thought that the ground had been covered many times before in finest detail. I did not realize that you were still confused as to what Kelly meant. i suppose that's my own fault for thinking that all members of this group speak english with perfect understanding (typical american attitude i know, but at least I can admit my mistake) I'm just glad this dicussion isn't taking place in Dutch or Polish > >Impractical and expensive, yes, but there are no tech dificulties. you > >would not be "creating" the energy, but only re-directing a tiny fraction > >of the sun's output. I would say it thusly "you would be using 1/3600 of > >the suns total output for a period of 2 years" After that, the energy > >could be used right here in Sol System for any other project that was > >desired. > > I'm sorry, I'm not sure how I got to the numbers but what I wrote between > braces is totally wrong, you would need about 1/(1E8) part of the Sun's > total output. > Meaning a solar panel with a 1000 kilometre radius near Earth. and a lot smaller if you could put in orbit at mercury's distance. > > >As to anti-matter and large energy requirements -- I think it would be > >far more useful to figure out how we can send the most mass for the least > >energy. > > That would always be anti-matter or a beam that is very tight. i don't agree, that's true only if you want to do it in a man's lifetime. if you are willing to accept a lower speed, then you can do the trip with a _lot_ less energy. > > >anti-matter would you need to get to the target star? do we carry the > >return trip fuel with us? or try to make it from the target? if we are > >going to make it, what percentage of energy can be turned into > >anti-matter? (and you can't assum 100% eff. either, or then I can assume > >100% eff. solar arrays and microwave converters ;) ) and where does the > >energy come from if you intend to make it? > > I haven't a complete oversight, but can tell you what I have in mind: > > 1. Matter is injected by matter, so that the photons collide with normal > matter. This matter is heated and will escape at the place of the lowest > pressure, the backside. This anti-matter engine needs more matter than > antimatter. > (I think in this case the comparison is big with chemical or fusion engines) > > 2. When an electron and anti-electron collide from almost rest, then 2 > photons of 511 KeV (2400 nm) are formed, so this means that photons of > resonable equally wavelength are created. So that would allow some kind of > mirror to reflect them to the back. To be honest sometimes there are 3 or > more photons formed with a total energy of 1022 KeV but all have different > wavelengths. > Now the problem is how to get only (anti)electrons and no protons or other > bigger particles. I haven't an aswer to that, so for now this method will > not work. > > You also ask how efficient it will be, that is hard for me to estimate, but > like most engines it has to be efficient otherwise it will melt away. This > seems like an easy way out, but I think it is true. So what it is important > that the products of the antimatter reaction are all discarded and not > absorbed in the engine. If the end-products are controlable this may not be > too hard. I meant by eff. Question, "what will the eff. of energy to antimatter conversion be?" or How many kilowatts does it take to make a gram of anti-matter? > > >(one idea for storage of anti-matter, start with anti-hydrogen,made from > >slamming high-speed protons into a stationary target, and use fusion to work > >your way up to anti-iron does anti-matter give energy when it fuses > >with anti matter? i think it must. when you have a quantity of anti-iron, > >magnetize it and your storage problems are solved. many of these > >technologies probably won't be avail until 2250 AD :( ) > > You could see anti-matter just as ordinary matter. All physic laws that are > valid for matter do hold for anti-matter. Thus fusion would work. > In fact Hydrogen is also a metal, it just has a very low melting point, I only if you put it under a hellish pressure. > don't know however what its magnetic properties are. > Also all materials have magnetic properties, though most don't have such a > strong and autonomic fields as iron. So all materials will be attracted to > or repelled from a magnetic field only some much more than others. > Actually, if we could get any respectable solid at all, like Li maybe, then we could give it an electricall charge and keep it suspended that way > >One of the implicit assumptions I'm going to use is that some form of > >self-replicating machinery is possible. not nano-tech, and not > >self-directed either. I'm assuming that a robot can be made that can > >make a copy of itself given: premade circuit board (pentium level > >motherboard with cameras and wireless modems) and ready made ores. that is, > >some other machine refines the ores and gives our robot "ingots" of > >aluminum or silicon or whatever else it needs. > >The robot needs to do the following autonomuos tasks: > > I like the idea about such robots, especially because you could design them > to build habitat units, or is that too difficult? no, I think that would be possible. > > >1) shape metal into any shape (most NC millers can do this today) > > What does NC mean? > Numerically Controlled, old fashioned term for computer controlled > >2) make a 1 meter by 1 meter solar cell from a solid ingot of silicon and > >proper doping materials (they work in vacumn, so much bulky equipment > >won't be needed > > Even if needed (because of dust attracted and distributed by the > ore-extracters) these vacuum pumps should not be that bulky. > > >these would then be able to first, turn out many copies of themselves, > >and then secondly, they could begin turning out the hectares of solar > >panels needed for the maser transmitters. the same system would work in > >Sol, as would work in TC > > That would mean roughly 1E8 hectares, or about 3 hectares per second if you > want to do it in 10 years :| > The 1E7 masers would need to be build by robots too! This may need more > complicate fabricating processes than solarcels. > > How much work can one robot unit do? Say 1m^2/second. > So that means about 3E4 robots are needed. > How long would one robot need to replicate itself? Say 3 days. > Using exponetial growth: 2^T=3E4 --> T=173 --> 3*T=519 days needed to make > 3E4 robots. Tim, i think you have a little problem here. 2^173= 1.19 E+52 robots =8^O In fact, I'm having trouble following where some of your numbers come from. assuming that your 1000 Km radius solar array is correct, I get (1000 * 1000)^2 *PI() = 3.14 E+12 m^2 of solar cells i think your estimate of solar cell production is way too liberal, I say 1 m^2/day is more likely. so now we need 8.6 E08 robots to do the job in ten years I think your three day replication estimate is good. using exponential growth, I get 2^T=8.6 E08 T=29 days 3 * T =89 days thats if we start with one robot. I think we would probably start with a 1000. if we let reproduction continue for 100 days ( nice round number) we'd have 8.59 E09 robots, and at the lesuirely rate of 1 m^2/day, we could build the entire solar array in 365 days. 100 robots could work on each maser transmitter, and all of them could be built in a month. we'd still have plenty of robots left over to build habitats, mine fusion fuel, or whatever other job we needed done. with that many pentium level processers, the resultant computer power would be staggering! Now, as Kelly says, when you get this many "Grunts", the job of the top boss becomes more and more difficult. but with several layers of "middle managment" computers, I think it would be doable ( although, maybe not at the speed I was reffering to > Just a note: Would super conductors be any use to us? In free-space (not > near a Sun) the temperatures are ideal for super conductors. yeah, I think we are going to need that technology in many areas. Computer circuitry, accelerator coils, fusion containment coils anywhere you have a lot of energy, and no way to remove the heat. Kevin From popserver Mon Jan 15 03:24:18 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2731" "Sun" "14" "January" "1996" "22:07:33" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "60" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id TAA21351 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 19:09:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA29530; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 22:07:33 -0500 Message-ID: <960114220732_116630037@mail04.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl cc: stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 22:07:33 -0500 > Kevin wishes to interrupt: > > > Timothy replies to Kelly: ---- > --- same with Kelly's > design, come up with a viable method of stopping and tell us how long it > would take to come up with the tech. (or lhow long it will take to > pre-load the decell track) Then when we have several methods, > we can rank them according to speed of travel, tech level, and other > factors, to come up with a viable method. Of the two ideas I came up with (launched fuel and stages fusion rocket) they both are stuck with using stored on-board fuel for deceleration. No solid numbers yet but it looks like 20% to MAYBE 30% is doable. In more detail: For a fuel laucher based systems the ship takes off with a ful load of decel fuel and accelerates up the accelleration track wich is pre loaded with fuel. Its maximum speed is limited by how far they launcher can accuratly launch the fuel. I.E. how far from the launcher does the fuel become so dispersed that the ship can't scoop up enough for its needs. Anyway. The ship leaves sol with its decel fuel. Coasts to a star thats close enough (T.C. would not be close enough, so I'm assuming Alpha C or something else in the 4-6 ly range), then Decelerates with the onboard fuel. For the return flight, it can eiather accelerate with stored fuel and decel into sol using a Sol fuel launcher provided decel track. Or they could, maybe, biuld a fuel launcher atthe target system. This would allow that ship, and subsequent ships, to make the flight at speeds not limited by on-board fuel limitations. Possibly at much higher speeds. A multi stage ship is theoretically limited by how many stages you can get. But I think the specific impulse of the system will give an upper practical limit. Returning could be harder since you won't have all the stages. Tim I think the central difference between us is your expectation of being able to colonise a world and self sustain a colony or base with only a couple hundred people. Currently a self sustained society needs millions of people to keep going and cities full of hardware. I might be willing to accept that we might be able to do it with tens or hundreds of thousands of people in 50 years; but not hundreds, and certainly not with what a ship could carry. So given my expectation that planets with a bio-sphere would be unsurvivable for any period of time, and the crews will be strongly limited by the spare parts the ship can carry. The mision couldn't sustain the open ended operations you seem to be assuming. So going there doesn't give the crew the option of living on their own, or starting a sustainable society. This probably accounts for our different reaction toward one-way missions. Kelly From popserver Mon Jan 15 03:24:20 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["338" "Sun" "14" "January" "1996" "22:07:38" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "10" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com (mail06.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.108]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id TAA21390 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 19:11:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA20818; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 22:07:38 -0500 Message-ID: <960114220720_116629868@mail06.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: David@interworld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl cc: stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 22:07:38 -0500 >> ---- Anyway, remember: this is a thought experiment. Why >> we are going is not as important as HOW we are going - is >> it possible, and if so, how could it be done? Well thats a good point. Of course the why effects the how. But since we don't seem to be geting very far in the how departments its probably a mute point. Kelly From popserver Mon Jan 15 05:05:53 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["13626" "Sun" "14" "January" "1996" "23:57:34" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "307" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.37]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id UAA26569 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 20:58:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA17237; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 23:57:34 -0500 Message-ID: <960114235734_42026576@emout05.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 23:57:34 -0500 Kely Re:Timothy replies to Kelly: > > >Oh, I still say there is no significant difference between a suicide flight, > >and a flight where the crew are abandoned with enough supplies to last them > >their life. I am frankly shocked that you and Tim could seriously suggest > >such a horrific and ruthless option. Thats like sending a team to antartica, > >on a one way trip to the pole with no resuply and recovery runs! "Hey guys, > >go there, explore, radio back what you find, and here's 50 years supplies and > >parts for you to live out you life with." > > Summarizing what I write in this letter: > - We have to discuss what is necessary for a small colony. If it is to be self sufficent. It would need the resources of a small country now. (Thou no current country is self suficent, the current estimate is about 7 million people to maintain current society.) > - You can't compare Antarctica with a new planet full of life. True, Antartica would be far more habtable and survivable, but its the best quick example I could come up with. Then again, since antartic is so much easyier to settle, and we don't. Why would we settle in another star system. > - We (or I) don't see it as dropping people without any regard, but as a well > organized lifetime adventure. When the gear runs out. It will be far less adventurous, and much more tedious. > - Do things break down or get lost faster than one can repair or replace them? In aircraft, one lists how many man-hours of work per hour of flight. For exploration gear it could get that bad. I'ld expect the hab deck could keep going for a couple decades with minimal repairs. Probably the same for the heavy power and water systems. The mini ships and shuttles, or ground rovers would probably be geting tired after a few years of hard use. > How had you planned to connect the torus-shaped hab-rail to the ship? The > loads of a 100 metre arm should be multiplied by 100! See my Web page. In general the hab-deck track is attached to the outer hull. > >You keep missing the point that the ship doesn't need to be generating the > >power to accellerate the fuel. Tus it would need as much fuel for power. > > The over all energy expenditure of the systems is irrelavant. > > It is indeed clear to me that the ship does need less power, because it > doesn't need to accelerate its own fuel. But if the over all expenditure of > the system is irrelevant, why is it such a problem to accelerate a 1:1000000 > ship:fuel combination? Such a ship would accelerate, it just needs a lot of > engines (or one very powerful one). That asumes the engines can provide the thrust equivelent to 1,000,000 times their own weight. No engines now made can do that. The best fusion engines I've heard specilated about can do 6 times there weight. We could probably expect that to go up to 20, but not a million. > By the way I still don't see how you possibly can say that the amount of > energy needed doesn't matter. (Yes, I know as long as we have no working > method...) If it doesn't need to be carried by the ship, it doesn't effect the ability of the ship to function. That gear can stay at home and be serviced by facilities and people thatthe ship doesn't need to carry. ============================================================================ > >Would you say the same about missions to the Earths poles? Fairly common and > >trivially cheap compared to this. A far, far more habitable environment than > >any alien planet is likly to offer. Yet no one has attempted to colonize > >Antartica. What would be the point? > > On the poles you won't find a whole new planet full of life. If we indeed > knew there were only a few boring planets with nothing more than dust, we > would probably go somewhere else or not go at all. Doesn't matter for survival. Planets with Bio-spheres would be uninhabitable. Actualy its unlikely any planet would be habitable to us. > ------ Now I'm > interested to know what would be the minimal amount of machines to start at > a reasonable level. (say the level of our current technology, meaning > pentium-computers, Scanning microscopes etc.) > I've not a good idea of what to take, do you? (Has this subject been > discussed before?) Several times. > - Life sustaining habitats. > - Nano tech would be a great help for ore extracters > - Machines to make simple metal, plastic forms. > > A lot of these machines we probably need on the Asimov during its 25 year > mission, most computer won't last for 25 years continuous work. Taking with > us a lot of reserve chips seems a bit too simplistic to me. > (Even the food growing-machines are nessecary, eating 10 year old food all > the time is yuck) The heavy equip probably can give a 40 year service life. Computers can do a couple decades if well made, and are light enough so several sets of spares can be carried. To keep down the weight I was figuring no food rasiing on the ship. Instead 20 years of standard frozen foods in cryo, and 20 years of concentrated rations. The rations are only for use for the ship to hold on for rescue if they can't make it back. (I was assuming a standard mission of 20 years round trip. Thou we may need to streach it a bit more.) > >Again you seem to be assuming they have tremendous resources of equipment and > >time. They would be extreamly limited, and given the dangerous nature of > >their mission. They are probably going to be losing stuff (people and > >equipment) fairly quickly. Without Earth benificent supply runs. They are > >going to be in bad shape fairly soon. > > How fast are they loosing too much supply in a two-way mission? Even such a > mission should stay there for about 10 years researching planets. > They will be loosing stuff but if it goes in the rate you are predicting, > then every mission is suicide. Again I was expecting shorter missions, with a 2 maybe 3 year layover in system. > >> The people going there aren't the people who really want to retire, these > >> are people that are born for exploration and research. (They really exist) > >> My guess is that they wouldn't sit all the time in some ship or > >> compartment, > >> but that they would allow themselves to go to the planets surface (in > >> spacesuits). > > > >Most of them will never be able to go to the planets. After a while none of > >them will be able to as the equipment runs out. If they have to plan on a > >long stay, they'll have to curtail exploration fairly quickly in order to > >save the equip for more practical uses. > > That may indeed be the case, but a 10 year exploration with 100 people is > hardly enough to do any real research of a complete solarsystem. Not to > mention refueling or building complete beaming-arrays (only advanced > nano-tech or anti-matter might overcome that problem). Which was one of the reasons why I was arguing against such things. > >No its more fundamental than that. Theirs just too many people. The more > >people the more corrdination efforts. For example I worked in the Space > >Station Freedom headquarters along with a few thousand other people. NONE of > >us actually worked on the space station. We worked to coordinate information > >between all the groups. The more people, the harder it is to keep everyone > >informed. On a big goverment project, everyone has to know what everyone > >else is doing. The more agencies, the more paths of interaction. Since > >governments tend to demand everything is monitored to the finest detail. The > >vast bulk (maybe 80%-90%) of the group effort is in meeting and reports to > >keep everyone else informed. > > What if everyone informed themselves? It's like the internet, people make > information available, othera read it and if they don't agree, they discuss > it with the author, after discussing they come to a common conclusion (if > not, that's because of stubbornness) which is made public again. > Also not all people need to know about everything in such a big project, > there are many specialized groups, but they should not loose the survey of > the project. Doesn't really help. Instead of everyone getting to gether in a meeting where everyone presents their material and discuses it. You have people doing the same thing one at a time over the net. > >> Maybe even one country is too big? > > > >Certainly one buracracy is! > > Then there may be a big problem, because such a big project would need a lot > of people. If the project is organized by a small central group running autonomous projects. Its possible. Add in multiple governments and you have a big problem. > >Why not radically differnt? Life on earth is all based on a couple of basic > >chemical and anitomical tricks. There isn't anything special about those > >tricks. MANY others would work as well. I imagine most life out their will > >be radically different from that here, and may have a few times as long as > >Earth had to develop. > > The main tricks are based on storing and retreiving energy in and from > molecules, that energy comes from the sun or from planet-heat (vulcanos). > Are there many easy reactions that can do that back and forth. (a cycle > reaction is probably to unlikely)----- Lifes a lot more complicated then that. But if it all has the same chemistry it can counter attack. But the subtel chemistry and biostructures that immune defenses use could be completely wrong to deal with the threat. > >I suggested that a few months ago and got no interest. I suppose it moves > >this project from a serious attempt to figure out if we could do it in 2050. > > To a science fiction club. > > Then we should end the discussion about engines with the conclusion that > only exotic fuels and/or enormous powerstations could make the trip > possible. The techniques needed are only in a early theoretical stage and > the size of what is necessary is (almost) beyond imagination and reasonabless. Then what else is there left to talk about? > >> You can never tell :) people are worring about many things (like asteroids > >> colliding with Earth or the Asimov :)) > >> If humanity ever becomes extinct, it will be likely that it is not because > >> of natural disasters. > > > >Well nature is our worst enemy, but then we are very hard to kill. > > Even on a planet 10 ly away? I'm assuming we're not stupid enough to go on the planets. > > >More to the point we could built fleets of O'Niel sized space colonies here > >for far less than this project. And they wouldn't have the resorce, access, > >and communication limits of a star colony. > > You say these colonies are dependant on Earth, what if such a disaster > happens, then they won't have much resources any more. The colonies in Sol space can develop rapidly and become very large. Because they could pay for their own way they could afford that, and pay for all the supplies and equipment they'ld need. Should Earth be trashed somehow. They would at least have all their resources and the resources of the other colonies to draw on. What they need they could trade the recovering Earth civilization for. (Or salvage from the remains.) Unlike a couple hundred people in another star system. Who just have to hope the folks back home stay rich enough to pay for the supply flights. > >I would say just the oposite. Life on a T.C. colony will be hard and very > >limited. The planets would be ignored, and the platform colony would need a > >lot of work to equip and maintain. They would be far more dependant and > >under the control of whoever runs the supply flights, then a similar colony > >in Sol space. > > At sol there can't be planet based colonies because of the wrong gravity. > (only Venus has a comparable g but it's a bit hot out there) > You keep saying that it takes a lot of effort to keep the colony working, I > wonder if that is true: Do you need to repair a lot in your house? (not a > personal question) OK, a house on a barren planet would be different, but I > cannot believe that everyone is constantly busy repairing things. Again you can't use the planets. Of course people are constantly busy repairing or replacing everything! What do you think most of the efforts of civilization go toward here? We're constantly working to maintain and replace everything from homes and cars, to worn out cloths and paper clips. Except here we have a trmendous industrial advantage due to the scale of those operations. On a colony world it would be harder, and take longer. We'ld be forced to try to keep old equipment runing that really should be replaced. > >If you didn't already have the credientials,you wouldn't be offered a ride. > > (You would be stunned at the credentials NASA can require for astrounauts > >that only get to fly every yeear or three. On the other hand the turn over > >rate among the astronuate is pretty high. They are highly competative > >people. After they do this, they want new chalenges and get bored. > > Probably the normal astronauts are suited for such a trip. If they indeed > want new challanges every few years, they are probably on the wrong trip. > This trip is a carreer for life, even if you make it a two-way trip. > Who would volenteer for a trip that could take deacdes but only give them a couple years work in the star system? Or even worse if after that you are abandoned in the starsystems with nothing to do but last out as long as the ship holds out? Or worse yet, expected to slave away maintaing the thing, like being traped in a decades long Apollo 13 mission. Kelly From popserver Mon Jan 15 18:00:58 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1571" "Mon" "15" "January" "1996" "13:51:04" "+0100" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl" nil "34" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl Received: from sunic.sunet.se (sunic.sunet.se [192.36.125.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id EAA12394 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 04:48:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from lksu.ippt.gov.pl by sunic.sunet.se (8.6.8/2.03) id NAA16954; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 13:49:38 +0100 Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl by lksu.ippt.gov.pl (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17876; Mon, 15 Jan 96 13:51:04 +0100 Organization: Institute of Fundamental Technological Research Address: Swietokrzyska 21, 00-049 Warszawa, POLAND Message-Id: <9601151251.AA17876@lksu.ippt.gov.pl> From: zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, KellySt@aol.com Cc: zkulpa@sunet.se Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Mon, 15 Jan 96 13:51:04 +0100 > From KellySt@aol.com Fri Jan 12 03:34:37 1996 > > Oh, I still say there is no significant difference between a suicide flight, > and a flight where the crew are abandoned with enough supplies to last them > their life. I am frankly shocked that you and Tim could seriously suggest > such a horrific and ruthless option. Thats like sending a team to antartica, > on a one way trip to the pole with no resuply and recovery runs! "Hey guys, > go there, explore, radio back what you find, and here's 50 years supplies and > parts for you to live out you life with." > Horrific and ruthless? If you send them for such a trip against their will - then you are possibly right. But if they are willing? There is a good ol' rule of Roman law: "Who is willing, does not suffer" [sorry if I do not used the correct English version of the text]. Besides, everybody must die some time - what is that real & shocking difference between dying in Antarctica and in Sometown, Montana? With the starflight, another important factor is added: the return flight is long (of the order of at least 10 years, say), thus those returning will have only few years to enjoy their medals on Earth, not to say of the boring years on the ship with nothing exciting to do (except betting if the next ship gear failure will be fatal...) and rather risky - the probability of irreparable failure of the ship during the flight is much larger than the failure of the outpost base. I, frankly, would prefer to stay at the outpost. It might significantly increase my life expectance... -- Zenon From popserver Mon Jan 15 18:01:00 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1359" "Mon" "15" "January" "1996" "14:02:24" "+0100" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl" nil "29" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl Received: from sunic.sunet.se (sunic.sunet.se [192.36.125.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id EAA12670 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 04:59:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from lksu.ippt.gov.pl by sunic.sunet.se (8.6.8/2.03) id OAA18694; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 14:00:58 +0100 Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl by lksu.ippt.gov.pl (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17950; Mon, 15 Jan 96 14:02:24 +0100 Organization: Institute of Fundamental Technological Research Address: Swietokrzyska 21, 00-049 Warszawa, POLAND Message-Id: <9601151302.AA17950@lksu.ippt.gov.pl> From: zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, KellySt@aol.com Cc: zkulpa@sunet.se Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Mon, 15 Jan 96 14:02:24 +0100 > From KellySt@aol.com Fri Jan 12 03:34:37 1996 > > [...] > No its more fundamental than that. Theirs just too many people. The more > people the more corrdination efforts. For example I worked in the Space > Station Freedom headquarters along with a few thousand other people. NONE of > us actually worked on the space station. We worked to coordinate information > between all the groups. The more people, the harder it is to keep everyone > informed. On a big goverment project, everyone has to know what everyone > else is doing. The more agencies, the more paths of interaction. Since > governments tend to demand everything is monitored to the finest detail. The > vast bulk (maybe 80%-90%) of the group effort is in meeting and reports to > keep everyone else informed. > The key phrase is: "Since governments tend to demand everything [, everything] is monitored to the finest detail", not the "just too many people". 80%-90% of this "coordination" is not necessary. Did all people involved really READ (with attention) ALL that "coordination" stuff? Put the task as a question of survival (of the humanity, of the company, of the people involved...) instead of as a government project that must be reported back in all, important or not, details - and the effectiveness rises several times (if not orders of magnitude...). -- Zenon From popserver Tue Jan 16 18:04:57 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["8996" "Tue" "16" "January" "1996" "17:59:09" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "179" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id IAA19862 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 08:58:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA11176 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 16 Jan 1996 17:59:03 +0100 Message-Id: <199601161659.AA11176@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 17:59:09 +0100 Timothy replies to Kelly: >I think the central difference between us is your expectation of being able >to colonise a world and self sustain a colony or base with only a couple >hundred people. Indeed, that seems to be the difference between us, Zenon has a bit other attitude, saying that people should decide for themselves what they want (to which I do not agree completely but also do not disagree completely, it's like smoking, it's bad but not bad enough (No... I don't smoke)). Where Zenon and I do agree is that staying at TC may be less dangerous than flying all the way back home. >Currently a self sustained society needs millions of people to keep going and >cities full of hardware. I might be willing to accept that we might be able >to do it with tens or hundreds of thousands of people in 50 years; but not >hundreds, and certainly not with what a ship could carry. I've doubts about that, a lot of things are unnessary renewed also a lot of effort is used to develop new things, if we would maintain the current level of technology and not innovate, we probably had a lot more spare time. ============================================================================ >> - You can't compare Antarctica with a new planet full of life. > >True, Antartica would be far more habtable and survivable, but its the best >quick example I could come up with. Then again, since antartic is so much >easyier to settle, and we don't. Why would we settle in another star system. What I meant is that a new planet would give us more than Antarctica could, I don't mean that it could be a place to live, but a place to get much new scientific information. >That asumes the engines can provide the thrust equivelent to 1,000,000 times >their own weight. No engines now made can do that. The best fusion engines >I've heard specilated about can do 6 times there weight. We could probably >expect that to go up to 20, but not a million. OK, take 1 engine that could acclerate itself and 19 other engines, than the other 19 engines didn't need to accelerate themselves anymore so they could use all their power to accelerate the ship. >If it doesn't need to be carried by the ship, it doesn't effect the ability >of the ship to function. That gear can stay at home and be serviced by >facilities and people thatthe ship doesn't need to carry. Storing fuel doesn't need much that much facilities. >Doesn't matter for survival. Planets with Bio-spheres would be >uninhabitable. Actualy its unlikely any planet would be habitable to us. We would not live on those planets, we would do research in spacesuits or with remote controlled robots. Maybe after we had figured out an anti-dote against most diseases we might want to live there. I don't see why good planets without live could not be used. Slowly I'm thinking of not going to a planet to live there: The main advantage of a planet are its ore resources, (assuming you can't live there without spacesuits. So why would we want live on a planet at all, space-stations could live near asteroids for their ores, the could fly away whenever they had enough materials. This does not mean that going to a planet to research it isn't useful! >To keep down the weight I was figuring no food rasiing on the ship. Instead >20 years of standard frozen foods in cryo, and 20 years of concentrated >rations. The rations are only for use for the ship to hold on for rescue if >they can't make it back. (I was assuming a standard mission of 20 years >round trip. Thou we may need to streach it a bit more.) Aaagh 20 years of drinking porrige, OK I'm out, I won't go anymore. Although we could bake some bread or won't flour hold for that long? Nah, bread and porrige that still isn't eatable. >Again I was expecting shorter missions, with a 2 maybe 3 year layover in >system. That makes Kevin's array-building even more difficult. Also doing any real research would not be possible. Besides that 3 years research for 15 years of travel is not acceptable, it would really be a waste of man power. So I think your idea of the goal of the mission isn't right. >>>Most of them will never be able to go to the planets. After a while none of >>>them will be able to as the equipment runs out. If they have to plan on a >>>long stay, they'll have to curtail exploration fairly quickly in order to >>>save the equip for more practical uses. >> >> That may indeed be the case, but a 10 year exploration with 100 people is >> hardly enough to do any real research of a complete solarsystem. Not to >> mention refueling or building complete beaming-arrays (only advanced >> nano-tech or anti-matter might overcome that problem). > >Which was one of the reasons why I was arguing against such things. Huh, I can't follow you, am I right that you are against refueling or building beaming arrays? If so, than the trip may indeed become very difficult. >> The main tricks are based on storing and retreiving energy in and from >> molecules, that energy comes from the sun or from planet-heat (vulcanos). >> Are there many easy reactions that can do that back and forth. (a cycle >> reaction is probably to unlikely)----- > >Lifes a lot more complicated then that. Yes, but once you have the same base things are a lot less different. >But if it all has the same chemistry >it can counter attack. But the subtel chemistry and biostructures that >immune defenses use could be completely wrong to deal with the threat. Yes, we have also very powerful medcines, take penicillin, it has a very broad range, and can kill many diseases at once, probably a lot of extraterrestial ones too. >> Then we should end the discussion about engines with the conclusion that >> only exotic fuels and/or enormous powerstations could make the trip >> possible. The techniques needed are only in a early theoretical stage and >> the size of what is necessary is (almost) beyond imagination and >reasonabless. > >Then what else is there left to talk about? I don't know, maybe there are other interesting subjects where everyone like to discuss about. Or we should summarize and break up but that sounds so hard after 1.5 years of writing. >> Even on a planet 10 ly away? > >I'm assuming we're not stupid enough to go on the planets. Oh yes, I forgot that :)) >> At sol there can't be planet based colonies because of the wrong gravity. >> (only Venus has a comparable g but it's a bit hot out there) >> You keep saying that it takes a lot of effort to keep the colony working, I >> wonder if that is true: Do you need to repair a lot in your house? (not a >> personal question) OK, a house on a barren planet would be different, but I >> cannot believe that everyone is constantly busy repairing things. > >Again you can't use the planets. Why not even a lifeless ones assuming they have almost the right gravitation? >Of course people are constantly busy repairing or replacing everything! What >do you think most of the efforts of civilization go toward here? We're >constantly working to maintain and replace everything from homes and cars, to >worn out cloths and paper clips. Except here we have a trmendous industrial >advantage due to the scale of those operations. On a colony world it would >be harder, and take longer. We'ld be forced to try to keep old equipment >runing that really should be replaced. A lot of things in the current civilization are too easely discarded of, a lot of things are bought new because a single part needed to repair the thing is more expensive or not possible to buy. Besides that a lot of appliances aren't build to repair. I can give you dozens of examples where an easy single repair can save a whole apparatus but you have to do it yourself because others can't or won't repair it. Also a lot of the current resources are use for devellopment not for reproduction. On TC we don't need to worry how we can make faster computers or better lightbulbs for the first few decades. So this is why I think that a lot less people are needed than you suggest. The things that really need to be renewed are a lot less and so you need a lot less people. >> Probably the normal astronauts are suited for such a trip. If they indeed >> want new challanges every few years, they are probably on the wrong trip. >> This trip is a carreer for life, even if you make it a two-way trip. > >Who would volenteer for a trip that could take deacdes but only give them a >couple years work in the star system? Or even worse if after that you are >abandoned in the starsystems with nothing to do but last out as long as the >ship holds out? Or worse yet, expected to slave away maintaing the thing, >like being traped in a decades long Apollo 13 mission. So now we do not only have a no engine but we also don't have a crew who does want to fly the ship, if there was an engine. This discussion gets easier by the minute :) I guess that we also don't have anyone who wants to build it if it was possible. Timothy From popserver Tue Jan 16 18:05:02 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5849" "Tue" "16" "January" "1996" "17:58:53" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "132" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id IAA19848 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 08:58:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA11154 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 16 Jan 1996 17:58:46 +0100 Message-Id: <199601161658.AA11154@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 17:58:53 +0100 Timothy replies to Kevin: >Oh, you two can go on argueing if you want to, don't let me stop you. I >just thought that the ground had been covered many times before in finest >detail. I did not realize that you were still confused as to what Kelly >meant. i suppose that's my own fault for thinking that all members of >this group speak english with perfect understanding (typical american >attitude i know, but at least I can admit my mistake) I'm just glad this >dicussion isn't taking place in Dutch or Polish I understand what Kelly means, but not why he thinks it. I'm also glad the discussion is not in Polish :) For me it doesn't matter much if I have to write English or Dutch, most words I know, the ones I don't I can quickly look up in my computerized dictionary which I use about 4 times per letter. Reading the kind of English that you guys write is not too difficult so I can almost always manage without any help. >and a lot smaller if you could put in orbit at mercury's distance. Yes a radius of 580 kilometre, but would it not become too hot? (the radiation level is about 10000 Watt/m^2) >> That would always be anti-matter or a beam that is very tight. > >i don't agree, that's true only if you want to do it in a man's >lifetime. if you are willing to accept a lower speed, then you can do >the trip with a _lot_ less energy. The the answer is also easy, with one Joule you could come everywhere. (live support not included ;) ) >I meant by eff. Question, "what will the eff. of energy to antimatter >conversion be?" or How many kilowatts does it take to make a gram of >anti-matter? Theoretically I'd say m=0.5 E/c^2 because if you create anti-matter, you create have to create an equal amount of matter. So that means a maximum efficiency of 50%. When creating the anti-matter the amount of lost energy could be kept small (10%) by reusing the wrong anti-matter and by "recycling" the lost heat. So anti-matter efficiency in total may indeed not so big as hoped. Maybe 30% after having used it in the spacevessel. >> You could see anti-matter just as ordinary matter. All physic laws that are >> valid for matter do hold for anti-matter. Thus fusion would work. >> In fact Hydrogen is also a metal, it just has a very low melting point, I > >only if you put it under a hellish pressure. No, the tables I use say that it gets solid at 14K for normal pressure (1 Atm.) >Actually, if we could get any respectable solid at all, like Li maybe, >then we could give it an electricall charge and keep it suspended that way Yes, I proposed that idea some weeks ago. >> How much work can one robot unit do? Say 1m^2/second. >> So that means about 3E4 robots are needed. >> How long would one robot need to replicate itself? Say 3 days. >> Using exponetial growth: 2^T=3E4 --> T=173 --> 3*T=519 days needed to make >> 3E4 robots. > >Tim, i think you have a little problem here. 2^173= 1.19 E+52 robots Yes, I did 173^2=3E4, really stupid... >In fact, I'm having trouble following where some of your numbers come from. >assuming that your 1000 Km radius solar array is correct, I get > >(1000 * 1000)^2 *PI() = 3.14 E+12 m^2 of solar cells I rounded it to 1E12... >i think your estimate of solar cell production is way too liberal, >I say 1 m^2/day is more likely. > >so now we need 8.6 E08 robots to do the job in ten years > >I think your three day replication estimate is good. > >using exponential growth, I get 2^T=8.6 E08 T=29 days 3 * T =89 days > >thats if we start with one robot. I think we would probably start with a >1000. That would save 30 days, is it worth carrying that much extra load to gain 30 days? > if we let reproduction continue for 100 days ( nice round number) >we'd have 8.59 E09 robots 1E13 Robots, or did you start with one instead of 1000 robots? (Note: Probably all robots will be worn out after a few years, so you may need 3 or 4 times more than you originally would think, that would only cost a few days extra) >, and at the lesuirely rate of 1 m^2/day, we >could build the entire solar array in 365 days. 100 robots could work on >each maser transmitter, and all of them could be built in a month. we'd >still have plenty of robots left over to build habitats, mine fusion >fuel, or whatever other job we needed done. with that many pentium level >processers, the resultant computer power would be staggering! Yeah, not to mention the memory they would have 10 PentaBytes (1E16 bytes), but only if they can communicate well enough... >Now, as Kelly says, when you get this many "Grunts", the job of the top >boss becomes more and more difficult. but with several layers of "middle >managment" computers, I think it would be doable ( although, maybe not at >the speed I was reffering to For 3E4 robots I thought it could be controlled, but 1E10 may become a serious problem. If they use radio communication to check each other, they need a quite broad bandwith. Also the chance for collisions may increase significantly. Another problem by building the array may be the amount of materials that have to be transported. Say a solar cell weighs 2 kg/m^2, so the total weight of the array is about 2 * 3.14E12 kg. That makes about 1.7E9 kg per day, that's not nothing... >yeah, I think we are going to need that technology in many areas. >Computer circuitry, accelerator coils, fusion containment coils anywhere >you have a lot of energy, and no way to remove the heat. Computer circuits mostly need semi-conductors, so I think super-conductors may not work there. But the other applications may be useful. Oh by the way, super conductors can't conduct infinite currents... I don't know what their maximum is though, I asked someone who worked with them but he didn't know either, they used only small currents and small pieces. Timothy From popserver Wed Jan 17 04:59:44 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1968" "Tue" "16" "January" "1996" "23:21:44" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "44" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.37]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id UAA20729 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 20:21:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA18592; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 23:21:44 -0500 Message-ID: <960116232037_44190111@emout05.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com cc: zkulpa@emin09.mail.aol.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 23:21:44 -0500 > [...] > > No its more fundamental than that. Theirs just too many people. The more > > people the more corrdination efforts. For example I worked in the Space > > Station Freedom headquarters along with a few thousand other people. NONE of > > us actually worked on the space station. We worked to coordinate information > > between all the groups. The more people, the harder it is to keep everyone > > informed. On a big goverment project, everyone has to know what everyone > > else is doing. The more agencies, the more paths of interaction. Since > > governments tend to demand everything is monitored to the finest detail. The > > vast bulk (maybe 80%-90%) of the group effort is in meeting and reports to > > keep everyone else informed. > > > The key phrase is: > "Since governments tend to demand everything > [, everything] is monitored to the finest detail", > not the > "just too many people". > 80%-90% of this "coordination" is not necessary. > Did all people involved really READ (with attention) > ALL that "coordination" stuff? > Put the task as a question of survival > (of the humanity, of the company, of the people involved...) > instead of as a government project that must be reported back > in all, important or not, details - and the effectiveness > rises several times (if not orders of magnitude...). In an international program there is also the bit that everyone wants a peice of the project. With it broken down into so many paices, no one can keep track of whats going on. Hence the coordination effort. Some organizations do keep that up even at the price of there survival. Especially government programs. To cut out the wasted overhead would require massive layoffs and political repercusions. Obviously if the organization is doing something critical its usually kept minimally gummed up. But given that this project can't in anyway be considered critical, it would be unlikely to get clear of that. Kelly From popserver Wed Jan 17 04:59:50 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1750" "Tue" "16" "January" "1996" "23:24:21" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "36" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id UAA21078 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 20:27:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA19423; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 23:24:21 -0500 Message-ID: <960116232024_44189821@mail02.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com cc: zkulpa@emin06.mail.aol.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 23:24:21 -0500 > Horrific and ruthless? > If you send them for such a trip against their will - > then you are possibly right. > But if they are willing? > There is a good ol' rule of Roman law: --- So, If you find someone willing to blow their brains out on camera, if the footage will be shone on the evening news. You don't think the news photagapher who says "sure, go for it" has any moral responsibility? > Besides, everybody must die some time - > what is that real & shocking difference between dying > in Antarctica and in Sometown, Montana? > With the starflight, another important factor is added: > the return flight is long (of the order of at least 10 years, say), > thus those returning will have only few years to enjoy > their medals on Earth, not to say of the boring years > on the ship with nothing exciting to do (except betting > if the next ship gear failure will be fatal...) > and rather risky - the probability > of irreparable failure of the ship during the flight > is much larger than the failure of the outpost base. > I, frankly, would prefer to stay at the outpost. > It might significantly increase my life expectance... You have a choice of 10 years in the ship betting on its systems not failing on its return flight. Vs the rest of your life in that same ship parked in the system, or a base built out of the ships parts, still better the systems don't fail. Unless your assuming you'll die in less than 10 years of natural causes. I can't see how you could take the return flight as safer. In any event its accademic. No political organization would be allowed to support or allow such a flight. Since such a flight can't be done without them in the next 50 years. The option, ruthless as it is, is closed. Kelly From popserver Wed Jan 17 04:59:52 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["9846" "Tue" "16" "January" "1996" "23:29:35" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "226" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id UAA21301 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 20:30:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA24371; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 23:29:35 -0500 Message-ID: <960116232114_44190980@mail02.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 23:29:35 -0500 Kelly replies to Timothy: > > >I think the central difference between us is your expectation of being able > >to colonise a world and self sustain a colony or base with only a couple > >hundred people. > > Indeed, that seems to be the difference between us, Zenon has a bit other > attitude, saying that people should decide for themselves what they want (to > which I do not agree completely but also do not disagree completely, it's > like smoking, it's bad but not bad enough (No... I don't smoke)). Where > Zenon and I do agree is that staying at TC may be less dangerous than flying > all the way back home. I can't see how staying would be safer. Unless you expect the drive system to fail? Your still relying on the the same life support systems. > >Currently a self sustained society needs millions of people to keep going and > >cities full of hardware. I might be willing to accept that we might be able > >to do it with tens or hundreds of thousands of people in 50 years; but not > >hundreds, and certainly not with what a ship could carry. > > I've doubts about that, a lot of things are unnessary renewed also a lot of > effort is used to develop new things, if we would maintain the current level > of technology and not innovate, we probably had a lot more spare time. Actually most companies only spend about %5 on research and development. The rest goes to manufacturing. So I don't expect a big saving there. Later in this letter you mentioned this idea again and suggested if systems were designed to be maintained they would require less replacement. To a degree true. But after a couple decades everthing wears out; and the reason we got used to throwing away things rather than repairing them, is its cheaper and takes less effort. ============================================================================ > > >> - You can't compare Antarctica with a new planet full of life. > > > >True, Antartica would be far more habtable and survivable, but its the best > >quick example I could come up with. Then again, since antartic is so much > >easyier to settle, and we don't. Why would we settle in another star system. > > What I meant is that a new planet would give us more than Antarctica could, > I don't mean that it could be a place to live, but a place to get much new > scientific information. Agreed. For scientific purpose a alien biosphere would be a goldmine! But it wouldn't help the crew to survive. > >That asumes the engines can provide the thrust equivelent to 1,000,000 times > >their own weight. No engines now made can do that. The best fusion engines > >I've heard specilated about can do 6 times there weight. We could probably > >expect that to go up to 20, but not a million. > > OK, take 1 engine that could acclerate itself and 19 other engines, than the > other 19 engines didn't need to accelerate themselves anymore so they could > use all their power to accelerate the ship. That works for 20 to one. But you still have the weight of the fuel for the one. > >If it doesn't need to be carried by the ship, it doesn't effect the ability > >of the ship to function. That gear can stay at home and be serviced by > >facilities and people thatthe ship doesn't need to carry. > > Storing fuel doesn't need much that much facilities. But it does take a lot of facilities to carry and move it. > I don't see why good > planets without live could not be used. Probably any planet about earth size would have life (assuming its not radically hot or cold. > Slowly I'm thinking of not going to a planet to live there: The main > advantage of a planet are its ore resources, (assuming you can't live there > without spacesuits. So why would we want live on a planet at all, > space-stations could live near asteroids for their ores, the could fly away > whenever they had enough materials. Right, thats why I keep talking about space colonies. Raw materials are far easier to get at in space then on a planet. By mid 21st century we'll probably be moving a lot of our heavy industry of earth and into space for that reason (expect the third world to screem!), so I expect our starship crew would not think of trying to get ore up off a planet. > >To keep down the weight I was figuring no food rasiing on the ship. Instead > >20 years of standard frozen foods in cryo, and 20 years of concentrated > >rations. The rations are only for use for the ship to hold on for rescue if > >they can't make it back. (I was assuming a standard mission of 20 years > >round trip. Thou we may need to streach it a bit more.) > > Aaagh 20 years of drinking porrige, OK I'm out, I won't go anymore. > Although we could bake some bread or won't flour hold for that long? > Nah, bread and porrige that still isn't eatable. ???! Not me dude. People who lock large groups of people in steel hull and feed them badly get hunted down and beaten up! ;) I was expecting to store standard groceries. Meat, eggs, milk, vegies, breads, pasta all that stuff. With the exception of the emergency rations, which would be optimized for high nutritian and low weight. Everything would be as standard as possible. Thats why I used food weight numbers for home consumers, not exploration or military missions. > >Again I was expecting shorter missions, with a 2 maybe 3 year layover in > >system. > > That makes Kevin's array-building even more difficult. Also doing any real > research would not be possible. Besides that 3 years research for 15 years > of travel is not acceptable, it would really be a waste of man power. So I > think your idea of the goal of the mission isn't right. Well you have to call and end to it sometime. I figured a couple years in systems would be all we could manage. Maybe a bit more than 3 years, but certainly not anywhere near 10. We need to keep the crews round trip time down below 30 years subjective (and not much more than that real time). I was also expecting a maximum ship service life of about 40 years. > >>>Most of them will never be able to go to the planets. After a while none of > >>>them will be able to as the equipment runs out. If they have to plan on a > >>>long stay, they'll have to curtail exploration fairly quickly in order to > >>>save the equip for more practical uses. > >> > >> That may indeed be the case, but a 10 year exploration with 100 people is > >> hardly enough to do any real research of a complete solarsystem. Not to > >> mention refueling or building complete beaming-arrays (only advanced > >> nano-tech or anti-matter might overcome that problem). > > > >Which was one of the reasons why I was arguing against such things. > > Huh, I can't follow you, am I right that you are against refueling or > building beaming arrays? If so, than the trip may indeed become very difficult. Beaming arrays yes. I was hoping we could get by on minning fuel for the fusion systems and maybe launching it. I was also assuming a larger number of people then you are. Maybe only a 100 people on the ground, but I expect total research team would be a thousand or more. (Note the size of my ship.) > >But if it all has the same chemistry > >it can counter attack. But the subtel chemistry and biostructures that > >immune defenses use could be completely wrong to deal with the threat. > > Yes, we have also very powerful medcines, take penicillin, it has a very > broad range, and can kill many diseases at once, probably a lot of > extraterrestial ones too. The only reason we can use anti-biotics at all is they trip up something suttle in the bacteria they attack. Even a slight variation of that bacteria species is uneffected. If the stuff effected something biologically fundamental. It would kil the patent as well as the desease. > >> Then we should end the discussion about engines with the conclusion that > >> only exotic fuels and/or enormous powerstations could make the trip > >> possible. The techniques needed are only in a early theoretical stage and > >> the size of what is necessary is (almost) beyond imagination and > >reasonabless. > > > >Then what else is there left to talk about? > > I don't know, maybe there are other interesting subjects where everyone like > to discuss about. Or we should summarize and break up but that sounds so > hard after 1.5 years of writing. Yeah, I'm begining to think we're doing this more out of habit then anything. Maybe thats why Dave can never seem to get around to fixing things on LIT. (I just got an E-mail from a new guy who wanted to join the newsletter and saw my name in the on-line archive and asked what the status is.) Maybe we should work up a conclusion reprt or something. > >> Probably the normal astronauts are suited for such a trip. If they indeed > >> want new challanges every few years, they are probably on the wrong trip. > >> This trip is a carreer for life, even if you make it a two-way trip. > > > >Who would volenteer for a trip that could take deacdes but only give them a > >couple years work in the star system? Or even worse if after that you are > >abandoned in the starsystems with nothing to do but last out as long as the > >ship holds out? Or worse yet, expected to slave away maintaing the thing, > >like being traped in a decades long Apollo 13 mission. > > So now we do not only have a no engine but we also don't have a crew who > does want to fly the ship, if there was an engine. This discussion gets > easier by the minute :) I guess that we also don't have anyone who wants to > build it if it was possible. Well we never could come up with a solid reason why people wanted to go there. It was just an assumption for the discussion that people would. So yes, maybe even if people could g, they wouldn't bother. We don't bother to send people to the moon or Mars? ;) Kelly From popserver Wed Jan 17 18:00:53 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["764" "Wed" "17" "January" "1996" "08:24:34" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.magec.com" "" "35" "Re: Fwd: Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Fwd: Re: Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: kgstar@most.magec.com Received: from most.magec.com (gw1.magec.com [151.168.2.3]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id FAA13045 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 05:25:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by most.magec.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04049; Wed, 17 Jan 96 08:26:55 EST Received: from unknown(151.168.254.82) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI003985; Wed Jan 17 08:25:16 1996 Received: by most (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02434; Wed, 17 Jan 96 08:25:14 EST Received: from ss4.magec.com(151.168.145.199) by most via smap (V1.5khhunt) id sma002413; Wed Jan 17 08:24:36 1996 Received: from [151.168.146.187] (kgstar) by ss4.uiv (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09066; Wed, 17 Jan 96 08:24:33 EST X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: kgstar@most.magec.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) To: KellySt@aol.com, zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, rddesign@wolfenet.com, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, David@interworld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 08:24:34 -0500 Oh, I was just talking about my old Explorer class starship stuff on LIT. The url is: http://sunsite.unc.edu/lunar/explorer.html At 11:23 PM 1/16/96, KellySt@aol.com wrote: >--------------------- >Forwarded message: >From: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Kevin C Houston) >To: KellySt@aol.com >Date: 96-01-15 08:13:38 EST > >Kelly, > >You talk about having a web page, I missed the URL could you please send >it to me. > >Thanks >Kevin ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Sr. Systems Engineer Magnavox Electronic Systems Company (Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From popserver Wed Jan 17 19:48:52 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["843" "Wed" "17" "January" "1996" "20:46:24" "+0100" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl" nil "21" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl Received: from sunic.sunet.se (sunic.sunet.se [192.36.125.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id LAA09293 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 11:43:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from lksu.ippt.gov.pl by sunic.sunet.se (8.6.8/2.03) id UAA05251; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 20:44:56 +0100 Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl by lksu.ippt.gov.pl (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26089; Wed, 17 Jan 96 20:46:24 +0100 Organization: Institute of Fundamental Technological Research Address: Swietokrzyska 21, 00-049 Warszawa, POLAND Message-Id: <9601171946.AA26089@lksu.ippt.gov.pl> From: zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, KellySt@aol.com Cc: zkulpa@sunet.se Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Wed, 17 Jan 96 20:46:24 +0100 > From KellySt@aol.com Wed Jan 17 05:25:15 1996 > > Obviously if the > organization is doing something critical its usually kept minimally gummed > up. But given that this project can't in anyway be considered critical, it > would be unlikely to get clear of that. > So - let us make it critical! Say, poke the Sol a little to show symptoms of becoming a nova... ;-)) Seriously, I am afraid it will become critical after some time - but then, who will spot it and have enough guts (see our discussion on one-way missions...) to draw the proper conclusions (and start the actions)... :-( -- Zenon P.S. Do not Cc: your messages to some zkulpa@emin09.mail.aol.com - that's not me (at least, I do not know about it), but apparently some other guy (if a guy it is... ;-)). Did you ever have got any answer from him? -- ZK From popserver Wed Jan 17 20:24:27 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3974" "Wed" "17" "January" "1996" "21:24:04" "+0100" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl" nil "83" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl Received: from sunic.sunet.se (sunic.sunet.se [192.36.125.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id MAA12651 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 12:21:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from lksu.ippt.gov.pl by sunic.sunet.se (8.6.8/2.03) id VAA10470; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 21:22:27 +0100 Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl by lksu.ippt.gov.pl (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26178; Wed, 17 Jan 96 21:24:04 +0100 Organization: Institute of Fundamental Technological Research Address: Swietokrzyska 21, 00-049 Warszawa, POLAND Message-Id: <9601172024.AA26178@lksu.ippt.gov.pl> From: zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, KellySt@aol.com Cc: zkulpa@sunet.se Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Wed, 17 Jan 96 21:24:04 +0100 > From KellySt@aol.com Wed Jan 17 05:30:37 1996 > > > [Zenon:] > > Horrific and ruthless? > > If you send them for such a trip against their will - > > then you are possibly right. > > But if they are willing? > > There is a good ol' rule of Roman law: --- > > So, If you find someone willing to blow their brains out on camera, if the > footage will be shone on the evening news. You don't think the news > photagapher who says "sure, go for it" has any moral responsibility? > That is quite another story - publicizing somebody's desire to make a grisly spectacle for no purpose except shocking others... Anyway, if that someone wills to blow their brains - it is their, so let them do it - one fool less will be a service to humanity... Being the photographer, I would simply say that I'm not interested. You see, would anybody climb at the window ledge threatening to jump twenty stories down if nobody will come with cameras, psychiatrist, negotiator, fireman's brigade with long ladder and wailing siren? And 100% of such "desperados" somehow becomes easily persuaded not to jump (after he is sure all the media gave enough coverage of his attempt...). So do not mince matters, Kelly... > [Zenon:] > > Besides, everybody must die some time - > > what is that real & shocking difference between dying > > in Antarctica and in Sometown, Montana? > > With the starflight, another important factor is added: > > the return flight is long (of the order of at least 10 years, say), > > thus those returning will have only few years to enjoy > > their medals on Earth, not to say of the boring years > > on the ship with nothing exciting to do (except betting > > if the next ship gear failure will be fatal...) > > and rather risky - the probability > > of irreparable failure of the ship during the flight > > is much larger than the failure of the outpost base. > > I, frankly, would prefer to stay at the outpost. > > It might significantly increase my life expectance... > > You have a choice of 10 years in the ship betting on its systems not failing > on its return flight. Vs the rest of your life in that same ship parked in > the system, or a base built out of the ships parts, still better the systems > don't fail. Unless your assuming you'll die in less than 10 years of natural > causes. I can't see how you could take the return flight as safer. > Return flight is much less safe than living at the base, Kelly. That collossal engine, with all its terawats boiling inside - ready either to blow out or to stall, rather worn out after years and years of the first half of the flight. No resources to find in the void, nor means to stop and search... > In any event its accademic. No political organization would be allowed to > support or allow such a flight. Since such a flight can't be done without > them in the next 50 years. The option, ruthless as it is, is closed. > Political organizations (and opinions) are not laws of nature, but emanations of people's opinions and attitudes. If they (the people) have such attitudes as you seem to propagate in our discussion, that it's not surprising that they possibly will not "support or allow" ANY flight (that's risky, you know - untested technology, not complying to these mountains of government rules and regulations of safety, no guarantee of safe return, high probability of accidental loss of life, probably far larger than in Kuwait...). So, if we want to go to the stars at all, we must fight off such attitudes. Not to say of other resons to do so. I wonder - Lindbergh would be certainly not allowed to cross the Atlantic - in his personally constructed and build plane, without all those attestations and safety inspections, completely on his own, with no detailed progress reports to the government, etc., etc. - surely a suicide mission... If such attitude really prevails, farewell the future of humankind, either among the stars or right there on Earth... -- Zenon From popserver Thu Jan 18 03:06:08 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6868" "Wed" "17" "January" "1996" "18:01:28" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "164" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id QAA09185 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 16:00:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Wed, 17 Jan 96 18:01:29 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199601161658.AA11154@student.utwente.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: Timothy van der Linden cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 18:01:28 -0600 (CST) Kevin replies to Timothy > Reading the kind of English that you guys write is not too difficult so I > can almost always manage without any help. I'm not sure if that is a compliment or a put-down ;) > > >and a lot smaller if you could put in orbit at mercury's distance. > > Yes a radius of 580 kilometre, but would it not become too hot? (the > radiation level is about 10000 Watt/m^2) I think the heat could be kept below the melting point of silicon. As the Temperature goes up, so does the blackbody radiation. > > >> That would always be anti-matter or a beam that is very tight. > > > >i don't agree, that's true only if you want to do it in a man's > >lifetime. if you are willing to accept a lower speed, then you can do > >the trip with a _lot_ less energy. > > The the answer is also easy, with one Joule you could come everywhere. (live > support not included ;) ) That reminds me of a great new travel method making use of Hiesenberg Uncertainty principle: as Temperature approaches Abs Zero, Momentum becomes zero to the last decimal, and the position becomes _infinite_. the recent cooling of some atoms down to nanokelvins of Abs Zero, makes me hopeful that this might someday work. although how you go from room temp to even a "balmy" -40 (celsius, Farenhiet, what's the diff. ;) ) is another question, but if you could make to that emp and survive, then perhaps you could make it to Abs Zero. > >> You could see anti-matter just as ordinary matter. All physic laws that are > >> valid for matter do hold for anti-matter. Thus fusion would work. > >> In fact Hydrogen is also a metal, it just has a very low melting point, I > > > >only if you put it under a hellish pressure. > > No, the tables I use say that it gets solid at 14K for normal pressure (1 Atm.) Solid yes. Metal, no. at one atm, hydrogen becomes an ice-like solid, which does not have any free electrons. only at great pressures (ie Jovian core) does the hydrogen take on any metallic properties. > > >Actually, if we could get any respectable solid at all, like Li maybe, > >then we could give it an electricall charge and keep it suspended that way > > Yes, I proposed that idea some weeks ago. > Oops, musta missed that one. > >assuming that your 1000 Km radius solar array is correct, I get > >(1000 * 1000)^2 *PI() = 3.14 E+12 m^2 of solar cells > > I rounded it to 1E12... > > >i think your estimate of solar cell production is way too liberal, > >I say 1 m^2/day is more likely. > >so now we need 8.6 E08 robots to do the job in ten years > >I think your three day replication estimate is good. > >using exponential growth, I get 2^T=8.6 E08 T=29 days 3 * T =89 days > >thats if we start with one robot. I think we would probably start with a > >1000. > > That would save 30 days, is it worth carrying that much extra load to gain > 30 days? one robot may not be able to replicate in three days, with out some minimum number of "support" units, to mine ore, cart raw materials to easy places etc etc > > > if we let reproduction continue for 100 days ( nice round number) > >we'd have 8.59 E09 robots > > 1E13 Robots, or did you start with one instead of 1000 robots? > Yes I did, sorry about that > (Note: Probably all robots will be worn out after a few years, so you may > need 3 or 4 times more than you originally would think, that would only cost > a few days extra) Any robot could probably repaired far cheaper than it could be re-built from scratch, and this could be done at any time, not just at the outset > > >, and at the lesuirely rate of 1 m^2/day, we > >could build the entire solar array in 365 days. 100 robots could work on > >each maser transmitter, and all of them could be built in a month. we'd > >still have plenty of robots left over to build habitats, mine fusion > >fuel, or whatever other job we needed done. with that many pentium level > >processers, the resultant computer power would be staggering! > > Yeah, not to mention the memory they would have 10 PentaBytes (1E16 bytes), > but only if they can communicate well enough... > i think TCP/IP would be much better suited to robotic units than to humans > >Now, as Kelly says, when you get this many "Grunts", the job of the top > >boss becomes more and more difficult. but with several layers of "middle > >managment" computers, I think it would be doable ( although, maybe not at > >the speed I was reffering to > > For 3E4 robots I thought it could be controlled, but 1E10 may become a > serious problem. If they use radio communication to check each other, they > need a quite broad bandwith. Also the chance for collisions may increase > significantly. This is where you have some robots dedicated to the task of routing. if each robot has a long-range low-bandwidth transmitter (to call for help, or report on distant conditions) and a high-bandwidth short-range (10m?) transmitter, then there should not be too much radio interferance. As for physically bumping into each other, one robot in 1024 could be dedicated (aside from it's router duties) the task of "traffic control", telling two robots when they get too close to each other (say within two meters) > > Another problem by building the array may be the amount of materials that > have to be transported. Say a solar cell weighs 2 kg/m^2, so the total > weight of the array is about 2 * 3.14E12 kg. That makes about 1.7E9 kg per > day, that's not nothing... in thinking about this, i was struck by the comment you made about the radius of the solar collector being about the same as the face of the moon, and i thought, what if instead of putting it (the collector) in orbit around the sun at Mercury's distance, why not just cover the surface of mercury with solar panels? (not too difficult if you have self-replicating robots) They could exist underground safely, and the maser array could be placed on the south pole of mercury (TC is below the ecliptic) Mercury would provide more than enough counter-weight for the beam, and the low gravity would assist the robots in maintaining the arrays > > >yeah, I think we are going to need that technology in many areas. > >Computer circuitry, accelerator coils, fusion containment coils anywhere > >you have a lot of energy, and no way to remove the heat. > > Computer circuits mostly need semi-conductors, so I think super-conductors Ever hear of a Josephson junction? > may not work there. But the other applications may be useful. Oh by the way, > super conductors can't conduct infinite currents... I don't know what their > maximum is though, I asked someone who worked with them but he didn't know > either, they used only small currents and small pieces. yes, i knew that, but that may be a limitation of technology, or is it fundamental? Keivn From popserver Thu Jan 18 03:06:29 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5616" "Wed" "17" "January" "1996" "18:56:27" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "97" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id QAA13237 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 16:55:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Wed, 17 Jan 96 18:56:27 -0600 In-Reply-To: <960116232114_44190980@mail02.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: KellySt@aol.com cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 18:56:27 -0600 (CST) Kevin to Kelly > > Actually most companies only spend about %5 on research and development. The > rest goes to manufacturing. So I don't expect a big saving there. What about the management overhead? Most of the effort I ever saw in a company was the bean-counters and the vp types bucking for position getting in everyones way. I'll take the example of a bare-bones circuit board (it's what I know) If the job is to make a million of the same thing, then you have this big pyramid structure, but if the job is to only make one or two of something, and then be able to switch to a different board, then I say that a complete (waste recycling included) operation could be built in 20m by 20m by 3m and run by two, or three people. say another 20 by 20 by 3 for the computer chips, (I'm assuming truely standard things like resitors are stored in hold) and perhaps another 4 people for stuffing and testing, and any circuit board could be repaired or replaced. If you tried to run a company like that here on earth, you'd be eaten alive because on earth, the name of the game is profit. and the cheapest most reliable, easily replaced and quickly programable machine, is a human being. I can show you a million of them living in Mexico Citiy That would be fully functional as a worker in a PCB (Printed Circuit Board) factory inside a week. But on a ship like the Asimov, the name of the game is self-sufficiency and space-economy. In that environment, a Human being requires too much overhead (air, food water) and many jobs that are done by poeple on earth would be better done by robots on board the ship. Light bulbs can be re-made, and if they all have the same size and shape, (or only two or three kinds) then it's quite simple for one person to operate the equipment needed to clean the glass fragments, re-melt the glass, re-shape the bulb, apply the phosphor, attach the ends and fill it with sodium vapor. don't expect more than a few bulbs a day, but then, how many do you expect to burn out? Part of the reason we need 260 million people to support our industrial society, is because we have 260 million people who all need computers and light bulbs and a million other things, but if there are only a few hundred people, and the things they need are standardized, and there is little incentive to constantly upgrade (to a new and improved deoderant), then it can be done. Look at the Shakers, the Ammana Colonies, any of the _real_ communes in the sixties (some of which are still going quite strong) yes, the people lived at a lowered standard of living, but that is Tim's point I think. Look aropund your apartment. Many of the things you have, you could do just as well without. (if you are anything like me, that is) One of the Good things about places like Biosphere II is not what we will learn about closed-sytem ecologies (which will be argued no doubt), but what they teach us about our consumer society. What we learn to do without and what we find indispensible > > Later in this letter you mentioned this idea again and suggested if systems > were designed to be maintained they would require less replacement. To a > degree true. But after a couple decades everthing wears out; and the reason > we got used to throwing away things rather than repairing them, is its > cheaper and takes less effort. yes, this is true, cheaper and less effort. but repair is not impossible. And when the Nearest Wal-mart is billions of Kilometers behind you, and the weight of all the possible spares you will ever need. Is prohibitive, repair is the only rationale alternative. making a re-fillable pen, taking the time to make _every_ chip in a computer plugable (so they can be removed and re-seated with ease, instead of with a soldering gun) These things will allow us to drastically cut down the numbers of people needed to maintain the ship. > Well you have to call and end to it sometime. I figured a couple years in > systems would be all we could manage. Maybe a bit more than 3 years, but > certainly not anywhere near 10. We need to keep the crews round trip time > down below 30 years subjective (and not much more than that real time). I > was also expecting a maximum ship service life of about 40 years. With a 1g thrust there and back (don't ask me how) the subjective one-way trip time is 5 years. Another 5 years for return trip, and that leaves 10 - 20 years for exploration. The Earth time is 37-47 years, and that's just too bad for earth, there's only so fast a man can go (with current physics model) > Yeah, I'm begining to think we're doing this more out of habit then anything. > Maybe thats why Dave can never seem to get around to fixing things on LIT. > (I just got an E-mail from a new guy who wanted to join the newsletter and > saw my name in the on-line archive and asked what the status is.) > > Maybe we should work up a conclusion reprt or something. You can quit if you want to, But I'm never going to stop. This group has been a God-send to me. I've dreamt about this ever since I was 10. I intend to find a way. Expense is not a problem. Any cost can be justified if the reason is good enough. Finding strong evidence of a life-bearing world (one of the opening assumptions) would be just the reason to go, spare no expense. I could think of no better Heaven than to have these ideas used. "To have our design go where no one has gone before." "You may say I'm a dreamer, But I'm not the only one." (with thanks to Gene Rodenberry and John Lennon) Kevin From popserver Thu Jan 18 03:07:24 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1473" "Wed" "17" "January" "1996" "17:45:02" "-0800" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" nil "30" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: rddesign@wolfenet.com Received: from wolfe.net (mail1.wolfe.net [204.157.98.11]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id SAA21310 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 18:29:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from sea-ts2-p18.wolfenet.com (sea-ts2-p18.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.136]) by wolfe.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id RAA21040; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 17:45:02 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199601180145.RAA21040@wolfe.net> X-Sender: rddesign@gonzo.wolfenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: rddesign@wolfenet.com To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 17:45:02 -0800 (PST) I've sat back and watched this talk go on for sometime now.The phylosophical nature of this is interesting but not getting us to designing the ship. It is obivous we are having trouble coming up with a mission statement that nails down where we are going and for how long. I feel this discussion is just going to keep going around and around. Like Dave said. TC is arbitrary and the focal point for the ship design. Can we design a ship to take 1000, 2500 people? Can we insure we can have the proper and correct amounts of food and spare parts? Can we drive, ( stear ), the danmed thing? Can we stop it once we get it going? Can we get it started at all? The big problem as I see it is building a drive to get us to TC and back if we want to. The rest we can probably do with the technology we have today or in the next ten years. I know I know Nothing about the physics of all this that many of you are writing about. But I do know we are running in circles right now. How do we proceed? I don't have a clue. Just give me a hammer and some nail and I will start building the ship :-) You guys come up with the steam engin to push it. Maybe we need to concider several types of propulsion. kind of like a small sailboat that has sails, outboard motor and oars. Or just build the thing large enough to carry all the rocks we will need to toss into the ramscoop. Or, maybe we just might have to set our sights closer to home. Ric ( Kevin: No line about beads. :-) ) From popserver Thu Jan 18 17:58:26 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["234" "Thu" "18" "January" "1996" "08:46:48" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "9" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id GAA26873 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 06:45:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Thu, 18 Jan 96 08:46:48 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199601161659.AA11176@student.utwente.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: Timothy van der Linden cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 08:46:48 -0600 (CST) Hey everybody, checkout the discovery of two jupiter-sized planets in the water zone. http://pio06.urel.berkeley.edu/documentation/photo.html while the planet itself might not contain life, the moons almost certainly could. Kevin From popserver Thu Jan 18 23:16:12 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["9982" "Thu" "18" "January" "1996" "22:47:33" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "210" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil "Engineering Newsletter" nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id NAA29195 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 13:47:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA22112 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 18 Jan 1996 22:47:18 +0100 Message-Id: <199601182147.AA22112@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 22:47:33 +0100 Tim replies to Kelly: >I can't see how staying would be safer. Unless you expect the drive system >to fail? Your still relying on the the same life support systems. I think I was expecting the drive to fail or blow up, but then again, if the risk was so high, it would have been likely to blow up on the outward journey. Since even a small risk (more than 1:1000) would not really be acceptable, you are probably right. >>I've doubts about that, a lot of things are unnessary renewed also a lot of >>effort is used to develop new things, if we would maintain the current >>level of technology and not innovate, we probably had a lot more spare time. > >Actually most companies only spend about %5 on research and development. The >rest goes to manufacturing. So I don't expect a big saving there. OK, but we don't need much manufacturing after the initial build up. It takes much less effort to keep what you have than to build something from scratch. Also a big amount of the 95% spend on manufacturing are the cost for raw materials, I expect the cost of mining raw materials will be less at TC because we can pick the easiest sites. No deep-sea oil drilling, most ores we need will be somewhere near the surface. I still don't see why it is not possible to scale things down. If you need 1 million people to feed 3 million people why can't you do with 100 workers for 300 people? I think a lot of organizational and social professions almost unneeded on TC because it is such a small community that doesn't have direct economic purposes. >Later in this letter you mentioned this idea again and suggested if systems >were designed to be maintained they would require less replacement. To a >degree true. But after a couple decades everthing wears out; and the reason >we got used to throwing away things rather than repairing them, is its >cheaper and takes less effort. Yes, but in those decades you would need much less new materials meaning a lot less work. The cheaper-throwing-away habit will not work on TC because it will take more effort to build a completely new object than to replace a single part. The reason that I mentioned this was not to say that things wouldn't wear out, but that the amount of work needed would be less since not all parts of the object have to be replaced each time. If you would throw away an object because one part breaks down, it would mean that the average life time of most objects would not be probably less than 3 years. ============================================================================ >> What I meant is that a new planet would give us more than Antarctica could, >> I don't mean that it could be a place to live, but a place to get much new >> scientific information. > >Agreed. For scientific purpose a alien biosphere would be a goldmine! But >it wouldn't help the crew to survive. No indeed, at least not for the first 20 years. But the mission would mainly be a scientific one. So you may want to stay longer at TC then the southpole just because there is much more to investigate. >>>That asumes the engines can provide the thrust equivelent to 1,000,000 times >>>their own weight. No engines now made can do that. The best fusion >>>engines I've heard specilated about can do 6 times there weight. We could >>>probably expect that to go up to 20, but not a million. >> >>OK, take 1 engine that could acclerate itself and 19 other engines, than the >>other 19 engines didn't need to accelerate themselves anymore so they could >>use all their power to accelerate the ship. > >That works for 20 to one. But you still have the weight of the fuel for the >one. Yes, but now you have 20 engines instead of 1 to push the fuel (the amount of fuel is not multiplied by 20 but by less than 20, depending on the weight of the engine). Here an anti-note (saying you may be right) I've tried setting up some formulas, from them it follows that you are right, I still don't see why though. (Formulas have a habit of not giving a good understanding) >> Storing fuel doesn't need much that much facilities. > >But it does take a lot of facilities to carry and move it. But do they need to be serviced all along the trip? >> I don't see why good >> planets without live could not be used. > >Probably any planet about earth size would have life (assuming its not >radically hot or cold. Wow, you are really optimistic. Or are you assuming that most earth-sized planets are too hot or too cold? Most Earth sized planets will have a dense atmosphere (not necessary oxigen rich). The ones that are cold are too far from their Sun or have too few greenhouse gasses. The ones that are too hot are too close to their Sun or have too many greenhouse gasses. Should too hot or too cold be a problem? Too hot maybe, it is easier to make something warm than to make something cold. But why are cold planets not good? By the way some people are suggesting on making a real atmosphere on Mars, wouldn't that dissolve constantly? On Earth gravity is high enough to keep its atmosphere, but on Mars the atmosphere is probably lost due to lack of gravity. >Right, thats why I keep talking about space colonies. Raw materials are far >easier to get at in space then on a planet. By mid 21st century we'll >probably be moving a lot of our heavy industry of earth and into space for >that reason (expect the third world to screem!), so I expect our starship >crew would not think of trying to get ore up off a planet. I'm not sure, would recycling not have a bigger influence on reducing the need for raw materials? Taking all the rubbish down means that the rubbish on Earth would increase, and we already have to much of that. >I was expecting to store standard groceries. Meat, eggs, milk, vegies, >breads, pasta all that stuff. With the exception of the emergency rations, >which would be optimized for high nutritian and low weight. Everything would >be as standard as possible. Thats why I used food weight numbers for home >consumers, not exploration or military missions. Huh, you just wrote: >To keep down the weight I was figuring NO FOOD RAISING on the ship. Instead >20 years of standard frozen foods in cryo, and 20 years of concentrated >rations. Or did you mean no cows and pigs? >Well you have to call and end to it sometime. I figured a couple years in >systems would be all we could manage. Maybe a bit more than 3 years, but >certainly not anywhere near 10. We need to keep the crews round trip time >down below 30 years subjective (and not much more than that real time). I >was also expecting a maximum ship service life of about 40 years. If the ship doesn't need to travel back anymore a lot of parts are unneeded, many of these parts are that of the engine, and these are the parts that wear out most fast and are most hard to replace. >> Huh, I can't follow you, am I right that you are against refueling or >> building beaming arrays? If so, than the trip may indeed become very >difficult. > >Beaming arrays yes. I was hoping we could get by on minning fuel for the >fusion systems and maybe launching it. You would need to mining and refine 1E10 kg of fusion materials, is that possible? I don't know, I have no oversight about these numbers, do you know what is acceptable? >I was also assuming a larger number of people then you are. Maybe only a 100 >people on the ground, but I expect total research team would be a thousand or >more. (Note the size of my ship.) Yes, I had never noticed that before. That means that all work can be done about 10 times faster. >> Yes, we have also very powerful medcines, take penicillin, it has a very >> broad range, and can kill many diseases at once, probably a lot of >> extraterrestial ones too. > >The only reason we can use anti-biotics at all is they trip up something >suttle in the bacteria they attack. Even a slight variation of that bacteria >species is uneffected. If the stuff effected something biologically >fundamental. It would kil the patent as well as the desease. As far as I knew, you have two kinds of anti-biotics, broad-spectre and small spectre. The small spectre have less side-effects but can kill fewer bacteria. The broad spectre can kill many different kinds of bacteria. But OK, I don't know that much about medcine, and I think neither do you. So I think we can't really discuss it well. I admit alien creatures will be different, but I just can't believe that it would be so different that we won't have a single clue how to fight them. I think we just have to disagree on this untill on of us has more hard data. >Yeah, I'm begining to think we're doing this more out of habit then anything. > Maybe thats why Dave can never seem to get around to fixing things on LIT. > (I just got an E-mail from a new guy who wanted to join the newsletter and >saw my name in the on-line archive and asked what the status is.) What did you tell him? Does he join? By the way I like this habit, I've learned a lot and given the project a lot of thoughts, before this I had never thought of all the problems that have arised. >Maybe we should work up a conclusion reprt or something. Yes, as soon as I have some time, I will make a start, my current timetable is real busy, I hardly have time to write these letters. >Well we never could come up with a solid reason why people wanted to go >there. It was just an assumption for the discussion that people would. > >So yes, maybe even if people could g, they wouldn't bother. We don't bother >to send people to the moon or Mars? ;) Sending people to Moon or Mars is cheaper, takes much less time of preparation and travel. The ship can be much smaller, no 20 year food supply is needed, even Earth controlled robots are a possibility. So all these things make it much more worth to go than TC. If we could go to TC and back in 5 years then the drive to go there may be much higher. Or if we could expand our lifespan by say 300 years. Tim From popserver Fri Jan 19 08:56:50 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6175" "Thu" "18" "January" "1996" "23:46:05" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "130" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com (mail06.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.108]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id UAA01798 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 20:48:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA06556; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 23:46:05 -0500 Message-ID: <960118234526_300534195@mail06.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com cc: zkulpa@emin07.mail.aol.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 23:46:05 -0500 > > From KellySt@aol.com Wed Jan 17 05:30:37 1996 > > > > > [Zenon:] > > > Horrific and ruthless? > > > If you send them for such a trip against their will - > > > then you are possibly right. > > > But if they are willing? > > > There is a good ol' rule of Roman law: --- > > > > So, If you find someone willing to blow their brains out on camera, if the > > footage will be shone on the evening news. You don't think the news > > photagapher who says "sure, go for it" has any moral responsibility? > > > That is quite another story - publicizing somebody's > desire to make a grisly spectacle for no purpose except shocking others... > Anyway, if that someone wills to blow their brains - it is their, > so let them do it - one fool less will be a service to humanity... > Being the photographer, I would simply say that I'm not interested. > You see, would anybody climb at the window ledge > threatening to jump twenty stories down if nobody > will come with cameras, psychiatrist, negotiator, > fireman's brigade with long ladder and wailing siren? > And 100% of such "desperados" somehow becomes easily > persuaded not to jump (after he is sure all the media > gave enough coverage of his attempt...). > So do not mince matters, Kelly... You seem to be arguing my point. You are proposing to be the mission control/cameraman eager to send crews out to die on the frountier for fame and fortune. > > [Zenon:] > > > Besides, everybody must die some time - > > > what is that real & shocking difference between dying > > > in Antarctica and in Sometown, Montana? > > > With the starflight, another important factor is added: > > > the return flight is long (of the order of at least 10 years, say), > > > thus those returning will have only few years to enjoy > > > their medals on Earth, not to say of the boring years > > > on the ship with nothing exciting to do (except betting > > > if the next ship gear failure will be fatal...) > > > and rather risky - the probability > > > of irreparable failure of the ship during the flight > > > is much larger than the failure of the outpost base. > > > I, frankly, would prefer to stay at the outpost. > > > It might significantly increase my life expectance... > > > > You have a choice of 10 years in the ship betting on its systems not failing > > on its return flight. Vs the rest of your life in that same ship parked in > > the system, or a base built out of the ships parts, still better the systems > > don't fail. Unless your assuming you'll die in less than 10 years of natural > > causes. I can't see how you could take the return flight as safer. > > > Return flight is much less safe than living at the base, Kelly. > That collossal engine, with all its terawats boiling inside - > ready either to blow out or to stall, rather worn out after > years and years of the first half of the flight. > No resources to find in the void, nor means to stop and search... But its a simpler system then the life support, and only needs to keep working for a few months at eiather end of the trip. Life support would need to work for decades, and even if it does how long will the crew last in a ship without cutting edge medicine or (at the end) anyone left healthy enough to maintain and operate the remaining systems. Personally I can't think of too many worse ways to go then locked in a dieing ship with a dieing crew, better which of the two would lose it first. > > In any event its accademic. No political organization would be allowed to > > support or allow such a flight. Since such a flight can't be done without > > them in the next 50 years. The option, ruthless as it is, is closed. > > > Political organizations (and opinions) are not laws of nature, > but emanations of people's opinions and attitudes. > If they (the people) have such attitudes as you seem to propagate > in our discussion, that it's not surprising that they possibly > will not "support or allow" ANY flight (that's risky, you know - > untested technology, not complying to these mountains of government > rules and regulations of safety, no guarantee of safe return, > high probability of accidental loss of life, > probably far larger than in Kuwait...). > So, if we want to go to the stars at all, > we must fight off such attitudes. > Not to say of other resons to do so. Why fight off such an attitude? Your proposing throwing away a crew like they were expendable parts. All for the convenence of a flashy, but non crytical, program. > I wonder - Lindbergh would be certainly not allowed to cross > the Atlantic - in his personally constructed and build plane, > without all those attestations and safety inspections, completely > on his own, with no detailed progress reports to the government, > etc., etc. - surely a suicide mission... > > If such attitude really prevails, farewell the future of humankind, > either among the stars or right there on Earth... Linbergh had a comercial ship customized for his purposes and had every intention of geting there alive. He got sponcership because everyone was fairly sure he wasn't a suicvidal ameture who would take stupid unnessisary risks. Comes the time we blithly throw away a few hundred people to save ourselves a little time and trouble, for a cause of no urgent critical importance, humankind doesn't deserve. As you may remember I was working in NASA shuttle flight planing when the Chalenger (almost exactly ten years ago) ripped itself apart in mid air. Largely because some political types desided not making waves and bad PR was more important than a few astronauts lives. After that a lot of political types got fired and a lot of astronauts quit. NASA had violated a cardinal rule of test pilots. They'ld risk their lives if it was important enough, but the people on the ground had to keep them informed and do everything possible to keep them alive. Doing a cost benifit analysis and deciding their lives arn't cost effective, doesn't cut it. I don't know what kamakazis you could get for such a flight, but they'ld be the dregs of this race, and I'ld be assamed for them to be my representatives to the stars. Kelly From popserver Fri Jan 19 08:57:56 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6914" "Fri" "19" "January" "1996" "00:33:41" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "137" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.12]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id VAA04559 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 21:33:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA06656; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 00:33:41 -0500 Message-ID: <960118234616_300534638@emout04.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 00:33:41 -0500 > > Kevin to Kelly > > > > Actually most companies only spend about %5 on research and development. The > > rest goes to manufacturing. So I don't expect a big saving there. > > What about the management overhead? Most of the effort I ever saw in a > company was the bean-counters and the vp types bucking for position > getting in everyones way. ---- You'll have most of the same kind of people on the ship. Assuming everyone isn't as worthless you could eliminate a lot of them. Given better tech, and limited production, you could eliminate a lot more. I'ld be willing to assume we could drop the threshold number down by a factor of ten or a hundred. That still means you need a tens to hundreds of thousands of people. Which is too many. >---- Part of the reason we need 260 million people to support our > industrial society, is because we have 260 million people who all need > computers and light bulbs and a million other things, but if there are > only a few hundred people, and the things they need are standardized, and > there is little incentive to constantly upgrade (to a new and improved > deoderant), then it can be done. Look at the Shakers, the Ammana > Colonies, any of the _real_ communes in the sixties (some of which are > still going quite strong) yes, the people lived at a lowered standard of > living, but that is Tim's point I think. Look aropund your apartment. > Many of the things you have, you could do just as well without. (if you > are anything like me, that is) None of those groups are self suficent now here (all but the most fanatic need hospitals and such). I'm geting quite familure with Ammish since their is a big a troblesome colony of them near my home. You also seem to skip over the fact that they arn't trying to live in a starship, orbiting in an alien starsystem, runing a high tech survey mission. This isn't little house on the prarie. All that high tech exotica, from nav systems to artificial, computer controled life support, is the thin wall between them and death. They will not be able to live off the land, hunt for game, or get by with nothing more high tech than a wood buggy and furniture. If it goes wrong; they can't ask for help from the next village or ship from europe. > One of the Good things about places like Biosphere II is not what we will > learn about closed-sytem ecologies (which will be argued no doubt), but > what they teach us about our consumer society. What we learn to do > without and what we find indispensible Did you ever lok at all the high tech, high maintenence gear it took to keep Bio-shpere going? Oh, and it wasn't enough! > > > > Later in this letter you mentioned this idea again and suggested if systems > > were designed to be maintained they would require less replacement. To a > > degree true. But after a couple decades everthing wears out; and the reason > > we got used to throwing away things rather than repairing them, is its > > cheaper and takes less effort. > > yes, this is true, cheaper and less effort. but repair is not impossible. > And when the Nearest Wal-mart is billions of Kilometers behind you, and > the weight of all the possible spares you will ever need. Is prohibitive, > repair is the only rationale alternative. making a re-fillable pen, > taking the time to make _every_ chip in a computer plugable (so they can > be removed and re-seated with ease, instead of with a soldering gun) > These things will allow us to drastically cut down the numbers of people > needed to maintain the ship. They will also drasticly cut the relyability of the system on the ship. > > Well you have to call and end to it sometime. I figured a couple years in > > systems would be all we could manage. Maybe a bit more than 3 years, but > > certainly not anywhere near 10. We need to keep the crews round trip time > > down below 30 years subjective (and not much more than that real time). I > > was also expecting a maximum ship service life of about 40 years. > > With a 1g thrust there and back (don't ask me how) the subjective one-way > trip time is 5 years. Another 5 years for return trip, and that leaves > 10 - 20 years for exploration. The Earth time is 37-47 years, and that's > just too bad for earth, there's only so fast a man can go (with current > physics model) Earth pays the bills. If it doesn't serve their intrest, it wount happen. The crytical time is that it would take roughly 15 years to get there and start making reports. First report back to earth in mission year 25 or something. That may not be quick enough for this kind of BIG money project. Also 10-20 years is way to long in system. You're people are going to burn out, and your support ships are going to be shot. 5 years should alow you to bring back as much data as the ship could carry. Much more than that and your trying to cover every detail, which would take centuries. Oh, and we don't have a clue how to get a ship 1G'ing up to light speed in any practical sence, and no idea at all on how to stop it. > > Yeah, I'm begining to think we're doing this more out of habit then anything. > > Maybe thats why Dave can never seem to get around to fixing things on LIT. > > (I just got an E-mail from a new guy who wanted to join the newsletter and > > saw my name in the on-line archive and asked what the status is.) > > > > Maybe we should work up a conclusion reprt or something. > > You can quit if you want to, But I'm never going to stop. This group has > been a God-send to me. I've dreamt about this ever since I was 10. I > intend to find a way. ----- Yeah, me too. But we're runing out of ideas and members. Most of the last month or three all we've really done is rehash old ideas. Maybe if we can get the LIT sight upgraded with more info and stuff we can attract people with new ideas. We used to have hundreds of people lurking out there, and 4-8 sizable weekly newsletters. Now its just a handfull of us, and even Daves (the founder) can't work up much enthusiasm for it. Maybe in wirking up a summary report we might realise something we overlooked. But now we're getting to the point where were running around in circles. I'm afraid we'll just drop of the mail loop and we won't even have worked up a summary report that people can start up from. > ---- Expense is not a problem. Any cost can be > justified if the reason is good enough. Finding strong evidence of a > life-bearing world (one of the opening assumptions) would be just the > reason to go, spare no expense. I could think of no better Heaven than > to have these ideas used. Spare NO expence? What exactly would justify unlimited funds for this? Even avoiding that, we could backrupt the planet and still not pay for some of the ideas we've been tossing around. They ideas woun't be used ifthey won't work. From popserver Fri Jan 19 08:58:32 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2218" "Fri" "19" "January" "1996" "01:10:43" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "44" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.37]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id WAA06735 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 22:10:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA03419; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 01:10:43 -0500 Message-ID: <960118234558_300534486@emout05.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: rddesign@wolfenet.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@interworld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 01:10:43 -0500 > I've sat back and watched this talk go on for sometime now.The phylosophical > nature of this is interesting but not getting us to designing the ship. It > is obivous we are having trouble coming up with a mission statement that > nails down where we are going and for how long. I feel this discussion is > just going to keep going around and around. > Like Dave said. TC is arbitrary and the focal point for the ship design. > Can we design a ship to take 1000, 2500 people? > Can we insure we can have the proper and correct amounts of food and spare > parts? > Can we drive, ( stear ), the danmed thing? > Can we stop it once we get it going? > Can we get it started at all? > > The big problem as I see it is building a drive to get us to TC and back if > we want to. The rest we can probably do with the technology we have today or > in the next ten years. > > I know I know Nothing about the physics of all this that many of you are > writing about. But I do know we are running in circles right now. How do we > proceed? I don't have a clue. Just give me a hammer and some nail and I will > start building the ship :-) You guys come up with the steam engin to push > it. Maybe we need to concider several types of propulsion. kind of like a > small sailboat that has sails, outboard motor and oars. Or just build the > thing large enough to carry all the rocks we will need to toss into the > ramscoop. Or, maybe we just might have to set our sights closer to home. > Your essentially right. Other than the drive systems the rest of the ship is straightforward. BIG, but given a large space industrial infastructure (a reasonable expectation for 2050) we could build it. The drive system is another matter. We've come up with no credible near light speed drive. The closest we've got is the Microwave-sail/Mars system, and it frankly isn't do-able. So we cant get to T.C. in a use-able time period. We have ideas that could get us to a fraction (.1 to maybe .3) of light speed at considerable expense, but that won't get us to T.C.. I'm working up a draft list of the general ideas for missions, drives, etc.. (IN BRIEF!). When I finish it I'll send it around for review and critique. Kelly From popserver Fri Jan 19 08:58:44 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil t t nil nil t nil] ["14653" "Fri" "19" "January" "1996" "01:40:38" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "266" "Fwd: LIT e-mail discussion group " "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com (mail06.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.108]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id WAA08348 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 22:43:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA27312; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 01:40:38 -0500 Message-ID: <960119001927_120961810@mail06.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PART.BOUNDARY.0.17542.mail06.mail.aol.com.822028764" From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu, David@interworld.com cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Subject: Fwd: LIT e-mail discussion group Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 01:40:38 -0500 --PART.BOUNDARY.0.17542.mail06.mail.aol.com.822028764 Content-ID: <0_17542_822028767@mail06.mail.aol.com.162778> Content-type: text/plain HI here is the first post by the new guy. I'll forward him the last few of our posts. Sory, I'm burned out replying to all you guys posts, you you folks can introduce one another. Kelly --------------------- Forwarded message: From: bmansur@oc.edu (Brian Mansur) To: KellySt@aol.com ('KellySt@aol.com') Date: 96-01-18 20:45:47 EST What does Cc mean anyway? Thanks for responding to my first ever e-mail Kelly! For the group's information, I'm a junior pre-med biochemistry major at Oklahoma Christian University of Science and Arts (it's a long name, I know) who hates the math aspect of most anything but has seen too many Star Trek and Babylon 5 episodes to not be interested in LIT's starship design project. Down to business. I'd love to jump in on the discusion that you guys have been running since LIT's server shut down. In the last few months I've been reviewing the newsletters and the ideas surrounding the propulsion problem. I'll probably have at least a little to say here. To begin with, I'd like to remind everyone on the Starship Design Project that our #1 problem in the propulsion field is how to slow down. Everything else is comparatively a piece of cake because the ship can be launched using an external propulsion system or an externally fueled counterpart such as a near solar system fuel track. The problem is how to fuel a ship when it is 12 light-years away. A quick note to Kevin Houston is that I have a hard time seeing his beam scheme reaching across the interstellar distances to connect with his famous MARS microwave toaster oven. The MARS idea works fine as any near home if used for a launch. Unfortunately, the power line just has to stretch too far to be feasible to stop (now go build the thing just to show me I'm wrong .. . . please :-). The only possible fix that I can see for any sort of light-years distant external fueling, be it for Relativistic Particle Beam Propulsion (RPBP), Photonic Pressure Propulsion (PPP), Microwave beaming (MARS), or fuel track laying for Ram Augmented Ion Rockets (RAIR), is to have some sort of network of refocusing or redirecting stations all along the path to the star. If this system involves power beaming, then there are going to be some serious losses in energy during the transfer. For example, a refocusing network for the lightsail could use a set of connected mirrors configured like a reflective telescope. One mirror would be the huge collector and the smaller opposable mirror would refocus the beam. HERE COMES ASCII ART :-) ------>------------>----------->-------------\ LIGHT RAYS <------- \ <------- | -------------------->----------->---[<-->-------->----------->--------->---- ----->--------->SHIP THESE RAYS ARE <------- | LOST TO 2ND MIRROR <------- / PRIMARY ------>------------>----------->_------------/ MIRROR LIGHT RAYS I'm posting a BMP file of this idea right here just to see if it works. Should be easier on the readers' sanity as I've heard complaints about this somewhat limited artform. How's the color? [[ E-ART.BMP : 4688 in E-ART.BMP ]] Unfortunately, some power would be lost as it hit the secondary mirror (we could make it one-way transparant if it were glass-like) and there will certainly be losses due to irregularities in the mirror's surface and the reflective material (silver is the best I can think of and that ain't cheap). The two would have to be connected as well to prevent any net movement. A series of Fresnel plates could serve as a MARS refocusing network but I have no idea as to how efficient that would be. I've completely ruled out an ionized particle beam refocusing network for Robert Zubrin's Magsail as perterbations in the matter stream would increase dramatically with distance. This would balloon the number of refocusing stations. It may also prove impossible to use an pre-ionized relativistic particle stream to push a magsail very far at all because, well, just look at what the sun does to all of the ionized gas that it spews out. The gas follows the shifting magnetic field of the star. I still have hope that this can be compensated for but then I also had hope that man would have returned to the moon by now. Zubrin suggested that the particle stream be neutral on the way to the magsail and that a laser carried on board could be used to ionize it. I would suggest using a laser that was NOT on board because, as someone pointed out in ARC29, it would take a terawatt to ionize 100 sq. meters, not accounting for conversion efficiencies of energy into a photon beam. Even if we could design a transfer efficient refocusing network, we would still have to find a way to get these stations into place for a cheap cost. Judging by what Forward (or whoever worked on lightsails) said about refocusing lenses being around the orbit of Neptune, we'd need thousands of refocusing stations placed all the way to 30 AU's from Tau Ceti. Kind of defeats the purpose of finding a cheap solution. On the other hand, if it could be done. . . . I know that I am jumping from topic to topic here. Its just that I've got a lot on my mind that I want to get to you guys before I have to face my Calculus homework. By the way, you may be wondering where we are getting the power for these propulsion designs. From the billions of 10 kilometer square power stations out between Mercury and Venus, of course. They were built by largely autonomous robot farms (the reproduce and prosper like any good ant farm) on Mercury and the Moon. To keep up the number of stations these two planets process dozens of solar collectors each second. Power is beamed to anyone in and around the solar system who will pay the human overseers' wages. Switching gears here, I was going over some information on the Deadalus probe in a book called "Bound for the Stars" by S.J. and B. Adleman. Anyway, the book said that the design was supposed to have a 15 to 1 fuel to ship ratio that would get a 500 ton payload to just over .10c. Using that as the working number to beat, and knowing that the probe uses greater than twenty-thousand tons of 3He (not exactly a common isotope), I tried figure out how we could make that monster more fuel efficient. The ideal scheme would be to launch the fuel from Sol to the ship. Or better yet, to launch the ship to the fuel that is already on route. Better still, perhaps, do both. Here is what I meam. Whatever fuel or reaction mass we need, we bundle up in tanker drones. We put a magsail on the tank along with about a dozen redundant homing beacons with LONG lasting energizer batteries. We then launch enough fuel to slow down a 250,000 ton starship by .01c. By the way, 250,000 tons is my opinion of the ballpark weight limit that would be account for enough equipment and shielding to support a 100 or so person crew. Not all of the 250,000 tons of the launch vehicle is necessarily unfueled. Anyway, the first tanker will actually have to carry enough fuel to slow the ship as much as .1c, but thems is the breaks (I actually made a semi-descent pun without meaning to). This first tanker will also be traveling only as fast as it can slow the starship to a full stop at the next gas station in Tau Ceti's Kupier belt. The other smaller tankers will be launched during the appropriate windows that will let them reach a position along the flight path that allow a starship to catch up with them, find them in deep space via the homing beacons, dock with them, and finally use their fuel to slow to the speed of the next tanker and repeat the process. This means that the overall deceleration phase will be fairly lengthy. Since every kilo on the starship will count against us, we need the ship to be as light as possible during deceleration. That's why we are bothering to wait a hundred years for our forward breaking tanker to reach its position before launching the actual starship. But note that if Mankind can afford to magsail launch a 1000 ton ship as envisioned by Zubrin, I'm betting that the technology will already be good enough and cheap enough to launch a 250,000 ton ship (which is about as heavy as it will need to be if we want to put 10 tons per sq. meter of shielding on the habitat). By the way, the whole shielding problem is still of some concern to me. How much do we really need when flying at relatavistic speeds? I think that we should should pray to God that he doesn't put a lot of little paint flecks sized particles between us and the stars or else our ship will run into them and they will cause dents way bigger than seen on the space shuttle window. One of "Bound for the Stars" suggestions for protection against smaller debris was to put a dust cloud/bag of some sort ahead of the ship. It would act like a forward atmospheric shield. Back to weight efficiency in the ship's design. If the magsail is big enough to effect any sort of deceleration by using the interstellar ionized gas, then we should turn the ship around. To do it, we fold the sail like an umbrella, turn, and redeploy it. Whatever kind of deceleration it produces will probably go virtually unnoticed by the crew and may be compensated for in how we rotate our habitat for artificial gravity and or by how it is laid out internally. Exactly how we want to produce artificial gravity will be determined in a later discusion. Speaking of the habitat. It is obviously going to take up the bulk of the shielding although it would be nice to protect our drive system and power reactors if at all possible. I'm thinking that we might want to mail the ship to Tau Ceti as a some assembly required package. We could, pack everything but the magsail, antenna, scientific instruments, and attitude thrusters inside a heavily sheilded cylinder with the habitat on the outer decks. Hopefully it won't end up weighing as much as Babylon 5 (2.5 million tons of spinning metal . . . . all alone in the night). The only viable solution that I can come up with to keep the shielding costs from getting too far out of control is to use fuel/reaction mass as shielding. Also we could send some fuel/reaction mass/shielding after the ship. This would require putting an extra engine on either the fed express tanker or the starship. For the cruising phase of the flight, we can afford to make a habitat that is spacous and comfortable. As soon as we want to slow down, however, we'll have to stuff the crew into a collection of cramped, space economized, modularized, trailer car-like habitats that fit into the cargo bay of the space shuttles that we'll use to explore planet surfaces. This deceleration storm shelter complex will be much easier to shield and, after we jetison (how do you spell that word?) the cruising hab, will drop the ship weight by tens if not hundreds of thousands of precious tons because the fuel that was formerly shielding for our interstellar space hotel will then be used to slow the ship to reach the first tanker drone. We'll assume that the deceleration phase is more or less 10 m/s and is relatively constant between tanker dockings. You've probably noticed that I don't hold out much hope for getting our crew back to Sol in their life-times. Over the last few days I've come up with a mission plan called for a starship named U.S.S. LEGACY. It is to be the pioneering manned starship of a colonization effort. Other ships like the U.S.S. HERITAGE will follow but that's my little fantasy. For now I'll play with the ASIMOV. In my opinion, if we've figured out how to get to another starsystem, we'll probably have figured out how to create self-sustaining colonies on even Luna-like worlds. On the other hand, even with extensive automation and self-reproducing robots, I'm not bothering (in today's discussion) to assume that we could hope to put together a launching system for a manned explorer ship using a less than 1000 person crew. We should, however, be able to carry enough equipment to set up a viable colony that will one day create a spacefaring civilization large enough to support another RPB network that could stop near light-speed fast ships from Sol. I realize that the LIT charter said (or implied) that the mission of the ASIMOV is supposed to be exploration and evaluation of a potentially habitable system. If we become technically sophisticated enough to send a manned ship to Tau Ceti, the robotics involved in producing that ship and its support systems at Sol will probably be more than adequate to send robot explorers on something like the Daedalus probe. If Tau Ceti turns out to be a dud, we wouldn't have then expended precious resources making a starship that will get a crew 12 light-years out to the middle of nowhere and back. The counter-arguement is that we would at least have the experience of having gone to the stars, just as Apollo gave us the experience of going to the moon and provided the plot for one excellent suspense/drama/documentary called Apollo 13. It's a sobering reminder of the dangers of spaceflight. One tiny defect almost killed 3 Americans. But this going to Tau Ceti is a lot more complicated than going Luna and back and I just don't see how to get the crew home in their lifetime. We might as well rename the ship VOYAGER and consider it lost in space. By the way, we all know that a one way mission where the crewmembers live out their natural lives at Tau Ceti is an option, but not a particularly pleasant or moral inspiring one. It is late and I need to do Calc. I imagine that someone has come upon these ideas long before me but I hope that what I've written has helped to refocus some thoughts (II Peter 1:13 I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body). Thanks for taking the time to read This, My Core Dump. I invite comments to be sent by bus, plane, train, automobile, phone, mail or e-mail. The e-mail address (as far as I know) is: bmansur @OC.edu My phone number is 405 - 425 - 6103 Mail can be sent to Brian V. Mansur 2501 E. Memorial Rd. Box 11000 Oklhoma City, OK 73136-1100 The following binary file has been uuencoded to ensure successful transmission. Use UUDECODE to extract. From popserver Fri Jan 19 09:57:22 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["637" "Fri" "19" "January" "1996" "04:52:07" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "19" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com (emout06.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.43]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id BAA05479 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 01:51:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA09004; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 04:52:07 -0500 Message-ID: <960118234547_300534380@emout06.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com cc: zkulpa@emin09.mail.aol.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 04:52:07 -0500 > From KellySt@aol.com Wed Jan 17 05:25:15 1996 > > Obviously if the > organization is doing something critical its usually kept minimally gummed > up. But given that this project can't in anyway be considered critical, it > would be unlikely to get clear of that. > >>So - let us make it critical! >>Say, poke the Sol a little to show symptoms of becoming a >> nova... ;-)) >> Seriously, I am afraid it will become critical after some time But certainly this flight could help any crytical problem, and it will be a very long time before star travel is more than a luxury. But by then, we'll have much better equipment. Kelly From popserver Fri Jan 19 09:57:24 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["11235" "Fri" "19" "January" "1996" "04:52:46" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "258" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com (emout06.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.43]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id BAA05546 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 01:52:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA09531; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 04:52:46 -0500 Message-ID: <960118234634_300534786@emout06.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 04:52:46 -0500 > > Tim replies to Kelly: > > >>I've doubts about that, a lot of things are unnessary renewed also a lot of > >>effort is used to develop new things, if we would maintain the current > >>level of technology and not innovate, we probably had a lot more spare time. > > > >Actually most companies only spend about %5 on research and development. The > >rest goes to manufacturing. So I don't expect a big saving there. > > OK, but we don't need much manufacturing after the initial build up. It > takes much less effort to keep what you have than to build something from > scratch. > Also a big amount of the 95% spend on manufacturing are the cost for raw > materials, I expect the cost of mining raw materials will be less at TC > because we can pick the easiest sites. No deep-sea oil drilling, most ores > we need will be somewhere near the surface. Raw materials will be in space. MOst of the best ore beds on earth are crashed asteroids. We can go to the source! Its not allways easier to maintain an established thing then to build a new thing to replace it. Often its much more expensive to maintain the old thing then replace it. Thats especially true of light high performance things like space ships, trucks, and cars. We could be a bit more effocent then people are here on earth, but not dramatically so. If we could, people would do that here to save money. Actually since we'ld be doing things in small coustom bunches, not large mass production lots like back here on earth. We'll be far less efficent in T.C. space. > > I still don't see why it is not possible to scale things down. If you need 1 > million people to feed 3 million people why can't you do with 100 workers > for 300 people? Actually it takes a couple dozen people to feed 3 million people. But to maintain a socyiety it takes millions of differnt professions. You cant train 100 people, to each do 60,000 professions and do them well. And we arn't in a good position to deal with a lot of sloppy workmanship. > I think a lot of organizational and social professions almost unneeded on TC > because it is such a small community that doesn't have direct economic purposes. > > >Later in this letter you mentioned this idea again and suggested if systems > >were designed to be maintained they would require less replacement. To a > >degree true. But after a couple decades everthing wears out; and the reason > >we got used to throwing away things rather than repairing them, is its > >cheaper and takes less effort. > > Yes, but in those decades you would need much less new materials meaning a > lot less work. The cheaper-throwing-away habit will not work on TC because > it will take more effort to build a completely new object than to replace a > single part. The reason that I mentioned this was not to say that things > wouldn't wear out, but that the amount of work needed would be less since > not all parts of the object have to be replaced each time. Why do you say, a few decades? What would change after 30 or 70 years? Are you expecting better ships or something? > > ============================================================================ > >>>That asumes the engines can provide the thrust equivelent to 1,000,000 times > >>>their own weight. No engines now made can do that. The best fusion > >>>engines I've heard specilated about can do 6 times there weight. We could > >>>probably expect that to go up to 20, but not a million. > >> > >>OK, take 1 engine that could acclerate itself and 19 other engines, than the > >>other 19 engines didn't need to accelerate themselves anymore so they could > >>use all their power to accelerate the ship. > > > >That works for 20 to one. But you still have the weight of the fuel for the > >one. > > Yes, but now you have 20 engines instead of 1 to push the fuel (the amount > of fuel is not multiplied by 20 but by less than 20, depending on the weight > of the engine). No the fuel is still multiplied by tweenty. Thats the whole point. > Here an anti-note (saying you may be right) > I've tried setting up some formulas, from them it follows that you are > right, I still don't see why though. (Formulas have a habit of not giving a > good understanding) > > >> Storing fuel doesn't need much that much facilities. > > > >But it does take a lot of facilities to carry and move it. > > But do they need to be serviced all along the trip? Yes, but not that much when they are shut down. More importantly they have to be carried. > >> I don't see why good > >> planets without live could not be used. > > > >Probably any planet about earth size would have life (assuming its not > >radically hot or cold. > > Wow, you are really optimistic. Or are you assuming that most earth-sized > planets are too hot or too cold? Earth got life very quickly after it cooled. Mars may have life. Then their is Venus whose crust is wrong which makes it to hoot. What does that give you for odds? And is it an average sample? Given the extreams of temperature, radiation, chemistry, etc.. that life lives in on earth. (icewater, nuclear reactor cores, water hundreds of centigrade above 0, deserts) I'ld expect to find life almost anywhere. > Most Earth sized planets will have a dense atmosphere (not necessary oxigen > rich). The ones that are cold are too far from their Sun or have too few > greenhouse gasses. The ones that are too hot are too close to their Sun or > have too many greenhouse gasses. Venuses temp is NOT due to its atmosphere. Its due to its crust, its a fraction of the thickness of earth crust and doesn't insulate well enough to keep the surface cool. > Should too hot or too cold be a problem? Too hot maybe, it is easier to make > something warm than to make something cold. But why are cold planets not good? You can get just as dead in liquid air as in liquid metal. Eiather way your pushing equipment hard, and without a good survival odds when it fails. > By the way some people are suggesting on making a real atmosphere on Mars, > wouldn't that dissolve constantly? Yes it would. But it may be stable for a couple thousand years. Or you could artificially renew it as it blows away. Hard part it gravity. Humans need it to stay healthy. > >Right, thats why I keep talking about space colonies. Raw materials are far > >easier to get at in space then on a planet. By mid 21st century we'll > >probably be moving a lot of our heavy industry of earth and into space for > >that reason (expect the third world to screem!), so I expect our starship > >crew would not think of trying to get ore up off a planet. > > I'm not sure, would recycling not have a bigger influence on reducing the > need for raw materials? Taking all the rubbish down means that the rubbish > on Earth would increase, and we already have to much of that. For ecology purposes moving heavy industry off planet would do more than anything else to ease ecology strain. Of course their are international political and cultural problems with that (proably a couple of wars with the third world). Stuff can't be recycled forever. After a while it just doesn't make any sence. Right now we in the (throw it all away) U.S. have litle real problem with waste disposal (though an incredible amount of political problems). about 80%-90% of our garbage is paper and similar compustables. The small fraction of metals and plastics %5ish, can be broken down or shiped into space if you crazy enough. Besides if the industry moves off planet to get to the resources, the materials to be recycled would need to be shiped up to be recycled anyway. > >I was expecting to store standard groceries. Meat, eggs, milk, vegies, > >breads, pasta all that stuff. With the exception of the emergency rations, > >which would be optimized for high nutritian and low weight. Everything would > >be as standard as possible. Thats why I used food weight numbers for home > >consumers, not exploration or military missions. > > Huh, you just wrote: > > >To keep down the weight I was figuring NO FOOD RAISING on the ship. Instead > >20 years of standard frozen foods in cryo, and 20 years of concentrated > >rations. > > Or did you mean no cows and pigs? No I ment no food raiseing. Oh, you can have a couple of tomato plants in your apartment for recretion. But farm systems weigh too much if your only going out for a couple of decades.. > >Well you have to call and end to it sometime. I figured a couple years in > >systems would be all we could manage. Maybe a bit more than 3 years, but > >certainly not anywhere near 10. We need to keep the crews round trip time > >down below 30 years subjective (and not much more than that real time). I > >was also expecting a maximum ship service life of about 40 years. > > If the ship doesn't need to travel back anymore a lot of parts are unneeded, > many of these parts are that of the engine, and these are the parts that > wear out most fast and are most hard to replace. > > >> Huh, I can't follow you, am I right that you are against refueling or > >> building beaming arrays? If so, than the trip may indeed become very > >difficult. > > > >Beaming arrays yes. I was hoping we could get by on minning fuel for the > >fusion systems and maybe launching it. > > You would need to mining and refine 1E10 kg of fusion materials, is that > possible? I don't know, I have no oversight about these numbers, do you know > what is acceptable? Minning seems easier then processing power converters and microwave systems. Don't know where to find that much ore off hand, but in space extreamly rich resources are common. > >I was also assuming a larger number of people then you are. Maybe only a 100 > >people on the ground, but I expect total research team would be a thousand or > >more. (Note the size of my ship.) > > Yes, I had never noticed that before. That means that all work can be done > about 10 times faster. > > >> Yes, we have also very powerful medcines, take penicillin, it has a very > >> broad range, and can kill many diseases at once, probably a lot of > >> extraterrestial ones too. > > > >The only reason we can use anti-biotics at all is they trip up something > >suttle in the bacteria they attack. Even a slight variation of that bacteria > >species is uneffected. If the stuff effected something biologically > >fundamental. It would kil the patent as well as the desease. > > As far as I knew, you have two kinds of anti-biotics, broad-spectre and > small spectre. The small spectre have less side-effects but can kill fewer > bacteria. The broad spectre can kill many different kinds of bacteria. But > OK, I don't know that much about medcine, and I think neither do you. So I > think we can't really discuss it well. I admit alien creatures will be > different, but I just can't believe that it would be so different that we > won't have a single clue how to fight them. I think we just have to disagree on this untill on of us has more hard data. I know ther are dozens of differnt anti-biotics each tailored to various things (and most becoming ineffective), but I don't know much more than that. Why would you think we could fight them? Kelly From popserver Fri Jan 19 17:00:55 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1285" "Fri" "19" "January" "1996" "08:22:48" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.magec.com" nil "38" "Re: Fwd: LIT e-mail discussion group" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: kgstar@most.magec.com Received: from most.magec.com (gw1.magec.com [151.168.2.3]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id FAA10920 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 05:24:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by most.magec.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04172; Fri, 19 Jan 96 08:25:46 EST Received: from unknown(151.168.254.82) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI004103; Fri Jan 19 08:24:01 1996 Received: by most (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02126; Fri, 19 Jan 96 08:23:58 EST Received: from ss4.magec.com(151.168.145.199) by most via smap (V1.5khhunt) id sma002103; Fri Jan 19 08:22:49 1996 Received: from [151.168.146.187] (kgstar) by ss4.uiv (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26568; Fri, 19 Jan 96 08:22:46 EST X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: kgstar@most.magec.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) To: Steve VanDevender Cc: KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu, David@interworld.com, kgstar@most.magec.com Subject: Re: Fwd: LIT e-mail discussion group Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 08:22:48 -0500 At 1:14 AM 1/19/96, Steve VanDevender wrote: >Hey, could we NEVER EVER mail 480,000 byte uuencoded BMP files to other >people ever again? I only have so much disk space for my mail. > >At least use a format like GIF or JPG that does some compression. BMP >is yet another of Microsoft's evils. At 1:18 AM 1/19/96, Steve VanDevender wrote: >I just unpacked that ridiculously huge .BMP file, cropped it to just the >part of the bitmap that contained image details, and saved it as a .GIF >file. It was 4823 bytes. Next time, think before you send this kind of >crud around. May I point out a certain line in said message > Brian Mansur) > To: KellySt@aol.com ('KellySt@aol.com') > Date: 96-01-18 20:45:47 EST > --- Thanks for responding to my first ever e-mail Kelly! --- The guy is new to this stuff. So could you wait a bit to jump on him? (We're trying to increase particapation!) He does not yet know the evils of the anti-christ Gates. ;) Kelly ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Sr. Systems Engineer Magnavox Electronic Systems Company (Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From popserver Fri Jan 19 17:01:41 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2744" "Fri" "19" "January" "1996" "10:53:01" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "53" "Re: Fwd: LIT e-mail discussion group" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id IAA21549 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 08:52:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Fri, 19 Jan 96 10:53:03 -0600 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 cc: Steve VanDevender , KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu, David@interworld.com, kgstar@most.magec.com Subject: Re: Fwd: LIT e-mail discussion group Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 10:53:01 -0600 (CST) Kevin To Kelly Note, I'm using a different letter than the I'm replying to, because there are some new people on the cc list. Welcome! Kelly, you keep trying to compare apples to organges when you talk about repair vs. buying new. On the Repair side, you have materials, labor, expertise, and energy. You then try to say that these are much higher than buying new, otherwise groups on earth would be doing this right now. by saying this, you are comparing the cost of manufacturing a single specific high-tech gizmo with the cost of manufacturing a million specific high-tech gizmo's. That's not the same thing at all. Of course buying something new is cheaper, the economies of scale make sure of it. but in a limited system, repair would be balanced by the transport wieght of the spare. if it weighs 1 Kg, then it's going to take a whole lot of energy to boost it up to cruising speed (I still say C is possible, and I intend to prove it) and back down again. This is the cost which must be balanced against the cost of repairing an object. Some spares should be brought, and other things should be designed for easy repair. as for the amish. I say if there is trouble with the amish in your area, it is probably modern society which is in the wrong. There is a large Amish community near my hometown (Viroqua WI which I'm sure nobody ever heard of) and I have always found them to be peaceful people who only wish to be left alone. If modern society is encroaching, then it is not the amish's fault. Anyway, this is not the place for this discussion, my appologies. My point about the amish, is that by sticking to a particular point in developement (whether that point is 1840's, 1900's, 1940' or 2000's doesn't matter) one can significantly reduce the amount of "effort" needed to keep the society going. Add to that the fact that much of earth-bound technology is _deliberately_ inefficient, and I think we can get much better than a ten or one hundred fold reduction in personal. I think we could get that, just by standardizing the equipment, and roboticizing much of the routine jobs. I take execption with your statement that we can't endlessly recycle, the limits on recycling are not material, there are energy. Lint can be re-woven into socks, if you are willing to totally break down the plastic fibers and re-form them. Rust can be turned back into iron, you just need some electricity. I also think your warehouse vs farm numbers are off, as in your farm estimates, you are assumeing some kind of soil, and not taking into account hydroponics. without the soil, the weight goes down drastically, since the water can be re-cycled endlessly. Kevin in the frozen North From popserver Fri Jan 19 17:57:12 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6025" "Fri" "19" "January" "1996" "12:50:58" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.magec.com" nil "125" "Re: Fwd: LIT e-mail discussion group" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: kgstar@most.magec.com Received: from most.magec.com (gw1.magec.com [151.168.2.3]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id JAA25752 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 09:54:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by most.magec.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16313; Fri, 19 Jan 96 12:54:32 EST Received: from unknown(151.168.254.82) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI016152; Fri Jan 19 12:52:35 1996 Received: by most (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06424; Fri, 19 Jan 96 12:52:32 EST Received: from ss4.magec.com(151.168.145.199) by most via smap (V1.5khhunt) id sma006390; Fri Jan 19 12:51:00 1996 Received: from [151.168.146.187] (kgstar) by ss4.uiv (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08799; Fri, 19 Jan 96 12:50:56 EST X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: kgstar@most.magec.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) To: Kevin C Houston Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 , Steve VanDevender , KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Fwd: LIT e-mail discussion group Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 12:50:58 -0500 At 10:53 AM 1/19/96, Kevin C Houston wrote: >Kevin To Kelly > >Note, I'm using a different letter than the I'm replying to, because >there are some new people on the cc list. Good! >Welcome! > >Kelly, you keep trying to compare apples to organges when you talk about >repair vs. buying new. On the Repair side, you have materials, labor, >expertise, and energy. You then try to say that these are much higher >than buying new, otherwise groups on earth would be doing this right now. >by saying this, you are comparing the cost of manufacturing a single >specific high-tech gizmo with the cost of manufacturing a million >specific high-tech gizmo's. That's not the same thing at all. >Of course buying something new is cheaper, the economies of scale make >sure of it. but in a limited system, repair would be balanced by the >transport wieght of the spare. if it weighs 1 Kg, then it's going to >take a whole lot of energy to boost it up to cruising speed (I still say >C is possible, and I intend to prove it) and back down again. This is >the cost which must be balanced against the cost of repairing an object. >Some spares should be brought, and other things should be designed for >easy repair. Actually there is a three way split. Build, repair, carry spares. In our case the ship would need to be most concerned about mass. I.E. you might be able to make new I.C. chips, but the chips manufacturing equip would weigh more then a 40 year supply of circuts. Other things like exotic hard to manufacture alloys, composits, cermats, whatever, that the shuttles would need. Might require equipment too large to be carried along. Bottom line things will wear out. When it comes to the point that the frames, hulls, main power systems and such have reached their service lives. They are not practical to repair, they are scrap. Unless your proposing bringing all the equipment that every high end manufacturer uses. Sooner or later were going to run out of stuff. As the gear for things fails were going to have to give up doing things. Exploration and planetary landings would probably go first, but sooner or later even survival would be chancy. > >as for the amish. I say if there is trouble with the amish in your area, >it is probably modern society which is in the wrong. There is a large >Amish community near my hometown (Viroqua WI which I'm sure nobody ever >heard of) and I have always found them to be peaceful people who only >wish to be left alone. If modern society is encroaching, then it is not >the amish's fault. Anyway, this is not the place for this discussion, my >appologies. Yeah the bigges around here with the Amish are that they tend to chew up (and dirty) the roads with the horses, and they try to run resteranys that don't meet hygen standards. Also some problem with pollution since they don't want to upgrade sanitation and plumbing. >My point about the amish, is that by sticking to a particular point in >developement (whether that point is 1840's, 1900's, 1940' or 2000's >doesn't matter) one can significantly reduce the amount of "effort" >needed to keep the society going. Add to that the fact that much of >earth-bound technology is _deliberately_ inefficient, and I think we can >get much better than a ten or one hundred fold reduction in personal. I >think we could get that, just by standardizing the equipment, and >roboticizing much of the routine jobs. Judging from the fact they work harder at maintaining there lowtech comune life style then I do my high tech style, I'm not sure about your comparison. The military is probably a better example. They need rugged equipment, and keep it for decades with limited upgrades. But sooner or later it wears out and has to be thrown away. In a colony situation where your encountering new phenominon, your not going to be able to freeze yourself at some 'efficent' form forever. I totaly disagre with your assumption that a most social effort is senceles inovation for novelties sake. Thing have to be replaced routinly. MOst industries have to live with the fact of market saturation. >I take execption with your statement that we can't endlessly recycle, the >limits on recycling are not material, there are energy. Lint can be >re-woven into socks, if you are willing to totally break down the plastic >fibers and re-form them. Rust can be turned back into iron, you just >need some electricity. In theory thats true. Reality doesn't live there. The limits are practicality. You could break everything down to basic chemicals, ion separate them to acceptable prurity, and mine that like ore. But what sence would that make? Could you afford to bring along all that equiment? Even if you could what advantage would it give you? >I also think your warehouse vs farm numbers are off, as in your farm >estimates, you are assumeing some kind of soil, and not taking into >account hydroponics. without the soil, the weight goes down drastically, >since the water can be re-cycled endlessly. > >Kevin in the frozen North The weight estimates were from the old stanford study. which used mixed soil and hydro farming. (Hydro isn't that light, I mean water is heavy too.) The big kicker was the weight of the habitation area needed for the farm gear. That would roughly double the internal volume needed. It gets especially bad if you need to shield it. The book is on line now at http://www.nas.nasa.gov/NAS/SpaceSettlement/75SummerStudy/Table_of_Contents1 ..html Oh, NASA giving up on hydroponics to. Seems the maintenence and relyability are bad for exploration systems. Light soil based is now considered more promising. I'll reserve judgment. Kelly ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Sr. Systems Engineer Magnavox Electronic Systems Company (Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From popserver Fri Jan 19 18:42:50 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3806" "Fri" "19" "January" "1996" "19:40:25" "+0100" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl" nil "93" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl Received: from sunic.sunet.se (sunic.sunet.se [192.36.125.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id KAA29123 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 10:38:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from lksu.ippt.gov.pl by sunic.sunet.se (8.6.8/2.03) id TAA03120; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 19:39:16 +0100 Received: from zmit1.ippt.gov.pl by lksu.ippt.gov.pl (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01736; Fri, 19 Jan 96 19:40:25 +0100 Organization: Institute of Fundamental Technological Research Address: Swietokrzyska 21, 00-049 Warszawa, POLAND Message-Id: <9601191840.AA01736@lksu.ippt.gov.pl> From: zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa) To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, RUSSESS@cellpro.cellpro.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, KellySt@aol.com Cc: zkulpa@sunet.se Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 19:40:25 +0100 > From KellySt@aol.com Fri Jan 19 05:51:43 1996 > [...] > You seem to be arguing my point. You are proposing to be the mission > control/cameraman eager to send crews out to die on the frountier for fame > and fortune. > No! > > [Zenon:] > > Political organizations (and opinions) are not laws of nature, > > but emanations of people's opinions and attitudes. > > If they (the people) have such attitudes as you seem to propagate > > in our discussion, that it's not surprising that they possibly > > will not "support or allow" ANY flight (that's risky, you know - > > untested technology, not complying to these mountains of government > > rules and regulations of safety, no guarantee of safe return, > > high probability of accidental loss of life, > > probably far larger than in Kuwait...). > > So, if we want to go to the stars at all, > > we must fight off such attitudes. > > Not to say of other resons to do so. > > Why fight off such an attitude? Your proposing throwing away a crew like > they were expendable parts. All for the convenence of a flashy, but non > crytical, program. > No! > Linbergh had a comercial ship customized for his purposes and had every > intention of geting there alive. He got sponcership because everyone was > fairly sure he wasn't a suicvidal ameture who would take stupid unnessisary > risks. > No. Anyway, do I propose "taking stupid unnecessary risks" when I say that I would rather stay back at the base than risk the return flight to Earth? > Comes the time we blithly throw away a few hundred people to save ourselves a > little time and trouble, for a cause of no urgent critical importance, > humankind doesn't deserve. > > As you may remember I was working in NASA shuttle flight planing when the > Chalenger (almost exactly ten years ago) ripped itself apart in mid air. > Largely because some political types desided not making waves and bad PR was > more important than a few astronauts lives. After that a lot of political > types got fired and a lot of astronauts quit. NASA had violated a cardinal > rule of test pilots. They'ld risk their lives if it was important enough, > but the people on the ground had to keep them informed and do everything > possible to keep them alive. > No! Do I propose NOT TO INFORM the crew that they are going to stay there at the outpost for all their lives? Do I propose NOT TO DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to keep them alive there till the (natural) end of their lives? > Doing a cost benifit analysis and deciding > their lives arn't cost effective, doesn't cut it. > > I don't know what kamakazis you could get for such a flight, but they'ld be > the dregs of this race, and I'ld be assamed for them to be my representatives > to the stars. > Kamikazis??? Dregs??? Come on, Kelly, don't try to offend me! It will fail: I am an 'ceptionally calm & stubborn kind of guy... ;-)) Anyway, my keyboard becomes jammed and fingers aching with this discussion - seemingly I am somehow basically unable to understand your position, and you are not willing to understand mine, so let us drop it for now. However, I insist that the two discussed types of mission ARE an option, however improbable from your standpoint, as there are many others willing to go on such a mission and ready to fight their way to it with all these "guardian angels" [that's you, Kelly :-)) ] thinking they know better what is good to others... So be it, -- Zenon P.S. Anyway, the "Design Space" listing I propose for our status report can, and should, contain also (some) options considered by (most of) us as improbabale or impossible, just to delineate BOUNDARIES of the design space... [except possibly such totally silly ideas like driving the ship with steam engine]. -- Zenon From popserver Fri Jan 19 19:04:38 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6278" "Fri" "19" "January" "1996" "20:00:28" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "146" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id KAA01226 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 10:59:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA09442 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 19 Jan 1996 20:00:23 +0100 Message-Id: <199601191900.AA09442@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 20:00:28 +0100 Timothy replies to Kevin: >> Reading the kind of English that you guys write is not too difficult so I >> can almost always manage without any help. > >I'm not sure if that is a compliment or a put-down ;) I'm not sure either :) >> Yes a radius of 580 kilometre, but would it not become too hot? (the >> radiation level is about 10000 Watt/m^2) > >I think the heat could be kept below the melting point of silicon. As >the Temperature goes up, so does the blackbody radiation. But since the doped silicon is quite temperature sensative 100 degrees extra may have a bigger effect than you would expect. >> >> That would always be anti-matter or a beam that is very tight. >> > >> >i don't agree, that's true only if you want to do it in a man's >> >lifetime. if you are willing to accept a lower speed, then you can do >> >the trip with a _lot_ less energy. >> >> The the answer is also easy, with one Joule you could come everywhere. (live >> support not included ;) ) > > >That reminds me of a great new travel method making use of Hiesenberg >Uncertainty principle: as Temperature approaches Abs Zero, Momentum >becomes zero to the last decimal, and the position becomes _infinite_. It is not the position that becomes infinite but the PROBABILITY of its position that becomes infinite. May look the same, but is different. The chance to find the particle at a particular place in the universe will be almost zero, but the chance to find it in space as a total stays equal to one. So effectively you won't know where your particle is after you cooled it down to absolute zero. The fact that a particle can move lightyears be everywhere is As you can see, this Although this may look as if it is conflict with the finite speed of light there is a deeper understanding that solves this "paradox". >the recent cooling of some atoms down to nanokelvins of Abs Zero, makes >me hopeful that this might someday work. although how you go from room >temp to even a "balmy" -40 (celsius, Farenhiet, what's the diff. ;) ) >is another question, but if you could make to that emp and survive, then >perhaps you could make it to Abs Zero. If it can be reached, than it's unlikely tha >Solid yes. Metal, no. at one atm, hydrogen becomes an ice-like solid, >which does not have any free electrons. only at great pressures >(ie Jovian core) does the hydrogen take on any metallic properties. I didn't know that, do you know a subject or book about that, where I can search for in a library? >> Yes, I proposed that idea some weeks ago. > >Oops, musta missed that one. It was in the long and dreary letters I wrote Kelly ;) >one robot may not be able to replicate in three days, with out some >minimum number of "support" units, to mine ore, cart raw materials to >easy places etc etc OK. >> (Note: Probably all robots will be worn out after a few years, so you may >> need 3 or 4 times more than you originally would think, that would only cost >> a few days extra) > >Any robot could probably repaired far cheaper than it could be re-built >from scratch, and this could be done at any time, not just at the outset Repairing is rather difficult, for some dumb replicating machine it is probably much easier to make a new one than to look for the non-working part and replace it. It is just like a conveyer belt, there is a gain because of the repetative task. >i think TCP/IP would be much better suited to robotic units than to humans 1E13 adresses need about 42 bits that's 10 bits more than the current URL/IP needs :) >This is where you have some robots dedicated to the task of routing. if >each robot has a long-range low-bandwidth transmitter (to call for help, >or report on distant conditions) and a high-bandwidth short-range (10m?) >transmitter, then there should not be too much radio interferance. As >for physically bumping into each other, one robot in 1024 could be >dedicated (aside from it's router duties) the task of "traffic control", >telling two robots when they get too close to each other (say within two >meters) I hadn't thought of the short and long range possibility, that would be a good solution. >in thinking about this, i was struck by the comment you made about the >radius of the solar collector being about the same as the face of the >moon, and i thought, what if instead of putting it (the collector) in >orbit around the sun at Mercury's distance, why not just cover the >surface of mercury with solar panels? (not too difficult if you have >self-replicating robots) They could exist underground safely, and the >maser array could be placed on the south pole of mercury (TC is below the >ecliptic) Mercury would provide more than enough counter-weight for the >beam, and the low gravity would assist the robots in maintaining the arrays Yes, that would also solve the problem of the solar-panels and laser-array being blow away by the photon pressure. A problem still present, is that the laser-array has to be directed, wich may be a problem on a rotating planet. >> Computer circuits mostly need semi-conductors, so I think super-conductors > >Ever hear of a Josephson junction? Yes, but as far as I know a Josepson junction has nothing to do with transistor like properties. (Or am I mistaken?) (What does mean?) >> may not work there. But the other applications may be useful. Oh by the way, >> super conductors can't conduct infinite currents... I don't know what their >> maximum is though, I asked someone who worked with them but he didn't know >> either, they used only small currents and small pieces. > >yes, i knew that, but that may be a limitation of technology, or is it >fundamental? It is fundamental, it is limited by the paramagnetic energy of the electrons. If too many electrons are moving, the special conditions are distroyed and superconduction is lost. I looked through some books and found that the maximum magnetic field possible for a certain superconductor with Tc=20K was 36 Tesla (Probably enough) But I still don't know the maximum current. The field would be have the same value at 1 cm distance from the center of a wire that conducts 350 Ampere. (rough approximation). >Keivn Is that your name in phonetic language? :) Timothy From popserver Fri Jan 19 19:04:43 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2983" "Fri" "19" "January" "1996" "20:00:43" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "70" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id KAA01254 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 10:59:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA09474 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 19 Jan 1996 20:00:38 +0100 Message-Id: <199601191900.AA09474@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 20:00:43 +0100 To Ric: >Can we design a ship to take 1000, 2500 people? Yes, ship-fuel ratio is the thing that is most important. But of course, the weight of the ship does not influence that ratio. >Can we insure we can have the proper and correct amounts of food and spare >parts? That is were we are discussion about at the moment, so keep an eye on to the newsletters for the final answer. >Can we drive, ( stear ), the danmed thing? Probably yes, otherwise it would mean that it would explode because of shear-forces that were not accounted for. But you should have in mind that you CANNOT make a turn whenever you like. If you travel at 100 million mph you need a very long way (probably lightyears) to make a 45 degree turn. >Can we stop it once we get it going? Yes, but we haven't found an easy reliable method unless we are using anti-matter or fusion (both are bad for different reasons) >Can we get it started at all? Same answer as before, although the options are broader: beaming and (prelaunching?) The trouble is that ALL methods need enormous amounts of energy and to make it worse most aren't even near efficient. So if we had an easy way to releasu this energy and an easy way to carry it then it would not be a problem. Oh yeah, there is still another problem, time. The period of 20 to 40 years makes all problems even much harder, things just can't be build so fast with so few people. >The big problem as I see it is building a drive to get us to TC and back if >we want to. The rest we can probably do with the technology we have today or >in the next ten years. Don't say that, a 600 meter tube of ten metres in diameter with shielding is quite large and then you only have a habitat. You still need the rest of the ship and an engine (which method is used is not so important here) which will probably weight more than the habitat ring. Than you have to build a large array of solar-pannels and laser-arrays or you have to accumulate 1E11 kg of hydrogen (assuming fusion). I think that such a task is still to much in 10 years time. >I know I know Nothing about the physics of all this that many of you are >writing about. But I do know we are running in circles right now. How do we >proceed? I don't have a clue. Just give me a hammer and some nail and I will >start building the ship :-) You guys come up with the steam engin to push >it. You can already start building the hab-ring, by the time you are finished we will have a design for the engine :) >Maybe we need to concider several types of propulsion. kind of like a >small sailboat that has sails, outboard motor and oars. Or just build the >thing large enough to carry all the rocks we will need to toss into the >ramscoop. Or, maybe we just might have to set our sights closer to home. Some long time ago we decided that it would not have an advantage to use multiple systems. The differences between all methods are so big that one or another will always be much more feasable. Timothy From popserver Fri Jan 19 23:13:00 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["753" "Fri" "19" "January" "1996" "23:56:22" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "19" "" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id OAA19054 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 1996 14:55:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA25098 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 19 Jan 1996 23:56:15 +0100 Message-Id: <199601192256.AA25098@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 23:56:22 +0100 To Kelly: > One of the Good things about places like Biosphere II is not what we will > learn about closed-sytem ecologies (which will be argued no doubt), but > what they teach us about our consumer society. What we learn to do > without and what we find indispensible Did you ever lok at all the high tech, high maintenence gear it took to keep Bio-shpere going? Oh, and it wasn't enough! Kelly do you know why there was too little oxigen? I've never heard the real reason for it, some thought the oxigen had oxidated with the metal inside the construction. I think that the glass may have filtered out some essential radiation or it may have dimmed the light too much. Timothy P.S. You guys shouldn't write so fast, I can't keep up... ;) From popserver Sat Jan 20 17:00:49 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1704" "Sat" "20" "January" "1996" "11:05:25" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "40" "" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id CAA23193 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 02:04:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA22604 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 20 Jan 1996 11:05:20 +0100 Message-Id: <199601201005.AA22604@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 11:05:25 +0100 To Kelly and Zenon, This is a NASA-newsletter that I got yesterday, it neatly reflects (y)our discussion which is going on. (I've added the > for the most important part) ADMINISTRATOR GOLDIN ISSUES STATEMENT ON CHALLENGER OBSERVANCE NOTE: The following statement by NASA Administrator Daniel S. Goldin was released today in observance of the upcoming 10th anniversary of the Challenger accident. "The best way to honor the memories of the crew of the Challenger, and of all the men and women who have given their lives to explore the frontiers of air and space, is to continue their bold tradition of exploration and innovation. That's what the people of NASA do every day. They push the boundaries of knowledge and human endeavor to improve and enrich life on Earth today and secure a better future for all of us tomorrow. > "I've said many times that safety is the highest > priority at today's NASA. We will not waver from that > commitment. But human beings have always taken great risks > to reap great rewards. Space flight is inherently dangerous > and every member of the NASA team understands those risks. "I'm proud of the women and men of NASA. They're blazing the trail to the future. They're building the components of the International Space Station. They're constructing spacecraft that will explore the farthest regions of the Solar System and the universe, and satellites that will monitor the health of our own blue planet for years to come. They're conducting cutting edge research that will make airplanes faster and safer, and they've made the Space Shuttle the most capable, reliable and versatile spacecraft in the world." From popserver Sat Jan 20 17:01:14 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["10510" "Sat" "20" "January" "1996" "15:14:43" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "219" "To Brian" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id GAA27893 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 06:13:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA05177 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 20 Jan 1996 15:14:37 +0100 Message-Id: <199601201414.AA05177@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: To Brian Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 15:14:43 +0100 Hi Brian, My name is Timothy sometimes its Tim, whatever I feel like. If you like to read some info about me look at my humble internet-site: http://www.cpedu.rug.nl/~N0642983/personal.html I have the habit to comment a lot and write less myself, simply because it is hard to figure out some well working idea. Others often try but fail after a while (not always ;) ) By the way Steve and I have an official nickname: "reknown throwers of icewater" Kevin, how is you snowball ship doing? >What does Cc mean anyway? Carbon Copy it's derived from the good old days where they didn't have E-mail and Xerox-machines. >Thanks for responding to my first ever e-mail Kelly! For the group's >information, I'm a junior pre-med biochemistry major at Oklahoma Christian >University of Science and Arts (it's a long name, I know) who hates the math >aspect of most anything but has seen too many Star Trek and Babylon 5 >episodes to not be interested in LIT's starship design project. Hmmm, you don't like math, then try not to read :) http://www.cpedu.rug.nl/~N0642983/calc.txt >If this system involves power beaming, then there are going to be some >serious losses in energy during the transfer. Why would there be serious losses? It is a non diverging PARALLEL beam! >HERE COMES ASCII ART :-) It really looks like garbage, are you using a proportional spaced font? If so try using a fixed sized font... I haven't been able to get it ungarbled... >I'm posting a BMP file of this idea right here just to see if it works. >Should be easier on the readers' sanity as I've heard complaints about this >somewhat limited artform. How's the color? The colour is fine, but never sent a 400kb bmp file again. ;) (My mail-deamon complained that it took too long, so I could start over again) The small mirror should not be concave (hollow) but convex (spherical) ! >Unfortunately, some power would be lost as it hit the secondary mirror (we >could make it one-way transparant if it were glass-like) and there will >certainly be losses due to irregularities in the mirror's surface and the >reflective material (silver is the best I can think of and that ain't >cheap). The two would have to be connected as well to prevent any net >movement. We are talking about micro waves, not visible light, so comparing with ordinary mirrors and lenses has no use. >Zubrin suggested that the particle stream be >neutral on the way to the magsail and that a laser carried on board could be >used to ionize it. I would suggest using a laser that was NOT on board >because, as someone pointed out in ARC29, it would take a terawatt to ionize >100 sq. meters, not accounting for conversion efficiencies of energy into a >photon beam. Why not use the beam alone instead of first beaming particles and then a maser beam to ionize them. Also tapping the magnetic field would probably have a very bad efficiency. >I know that I am jumping from topic to topic here. Its just that I've got a >lot on my mind that I want to get to you guys before I have to face my >Calculus homework. By the way, you may be wondering where we are getting >the power for these propulsion designs. No, we aren't wondering any more... We have given up hope, after going through all possibilities. >From the billions of 10 kilometer >square power stations out between Mercury and Venus, of course. Indeed, about 1E12 m^2 or a billion 1 square kilomtres. What you probably haven't thought of is that the same solar-radiation they capture also pushes them away. And it is not neglectable! (It is bigger than the momentum our spaceship has after accelerating) There have been some ideas to overcome this problem, but they don't make it easier. >Switching gears here, I was going over some information on the Deadalus >probe in a book called "Bound for the Stars" by S.J. and B. Adleman. > Anyway, the book said that the design was supposed to have a 15 to 1 fuel >to ship ratio that would get a 500 ton payload to just over .10c. Using >that as the working number to beat, and knowing that the probe uses greater >than twenty-thousand tons of 3He (not exactly a common isotope), I tried >figure out how we could make that monster more fuel efficient. The ideal >scheme would be to launch the fuel from Sol to the ship. Or better yet, to >launch the ship to the fuel that is already on route. Better still, >perhaps, do both. Actually the ratio could be a lot better say 1:4 although no-one has confirmed my number yet. By the way we like using the scientific exponential notation: 10 tons = 1E4 kg This is because sometimes the use of million and billion is not completely clear and it makes comparing easier also. 5E5 kg is too little, we are talking about 2E9 kg or so, maybe a bit less but I think that 1E7 kg is the absolute minimum. >Anyway, the first tanker will actually have to carry enough fuel >to slow the ship as much as .1c, but thems is the breaks (I actually made a >semi-descent pun without meaning to). This first tanker will also be >traveling only as fast as it can slow the starship to a full stop at the >next gas station in Tau Ceti's Kupier belt. > >The other smaller tankers will be launched during the appropriate windows >that will let them reach a position along the flight path that allow a >starship to catch up with them, find them in deep space via the homing >beacons, dock with them, and finally use their fuel to slow to the speed of >the next tanker and repeat the process. This means that the overall >deceleration phase will be fairly lengthy. Ha, this was my idea, we discussed it and guess what, it is discarded for two reasons: - To get the slowest tank at TC would take at least 100 years, too long for any project. - The time and place precision needed by the decel-track would not be feasable. >By the way, the whole shielding problem is still of some concern to me. How >much do we really need when flying at relatavistic speeds? I think that we >should should pray to God that he doesn't put a lot of little paint flecks >sized particles between us and the stars or else our ship will run into them >and they will cause dents way bigger than seen on the space shuttle window. > One of "Bound for the Stars" suggestions for protection against smaller >debris was to put a dust cloud/bag of some sort ahead of the ship. It would >act like a forward atmospheric shield. I'm of the opinion that a solid shield is better than a gassious one. Simply because it stays where it is and doesn't involve elaborate ice-gas shooting cannons. It has been suggested to use a simple ice shield (not necessary water-ice), it could be more easely renewed and may work well. >Back to weight efficiency in the ship's design. If the magsail is big >enough to effect any sort of deceleration by using the interstellar ionized >gas, then we should turn the ship around. To do it, we fold the sail like >an umbrella, turn, and redeploy it. Ionize interstellar gas, you are talking about it as if you could see it, the best guesses are that the there is too few interstellar dust. Only a ramscoop with a 1000 km radius may be enough to make some significant use of it. I still have a hard time imagining how a magsail could work efficient, magnetic fields have the peculiarity to be not very bundled. >Whatever kind of deceleration it >produces will probably go virtually unnoticed by the crew and may be >compensated for in how we rotate our habitat for artificial gravity and or >by how it is laid out internally. Exactly how we want to produce >artificial gravity will be determined in a later discusion. We use engine thrust and centrifugal forces for gravity, there are no other known possibilities. >The only viable >solution that I can come up with to keep the shielding costs from getting >too far out of control is to use fuel/reaction mass as shielding. Also we >could send some fuel/reaction mass/shielding after the ship. This would >require putting an extra engine on either the fed express tanker or the >starship. The problem with using fuel/reaction mass as shielding is that you have to carry that fuel, if you want to get over a minimum speed of 0.3 c it is impossible to push the fuel. >For the cruising phase of the flight, we can afford to make a habitat that >is spacous and comfortable. As soon as we want to slow down, however, we'll >have to stuff the crew into a collection of cramped, space economized, >modularized, trailer car-like habitats that fit into the cargo bay of the >space shuttles that we'll use to explore planet surfaces. Too bad, we will be accelerating and decelerting all the time, so there is no cruising phase period. And why would you make the ship bigger than needed, acceleration takes energy too you know. >This deceleration >storm shelter complex will be much easier to shield and, after we jetison >(how do you spell that word?) the cruising hab, will drop the ship weight by >tens if not hundreds of thousands of precious tons because the fuel that was >formerly shielding for our interstellar space hotel will then be used to >slow the ship to reach the first tanker drone. (Wow a sentence of five lines with two commas) After having thrown away the biggest part of your ship, how are you going to return? >You've probably noticed that I don't hold out much hope for getting our crew >back to Sol in their life-times. Over the last few days I've come up with a >mission plan called for a starship named U.S.S. LEGACY. It is to be the >pioneering manned starship of a colonization effort. Other ships like the >U.S.S. HERITAGE will follow but that's my little fantasy. For now I'll play >with the ASIMOV. Ah thats why you throw away your ship. Makes me wonder how you want to camp in the TC-system. Maybe you should have a long talk with Kelly... By the way you have the name spelled wrong, it should be E.S. LEGACY it is a European efford you know. ;) >It is late and I need to do Calc. I imagine that someone has come upon >these ideas long before me but I hope that what I've written has helped to >refocus some thoughts (II Peter 1:13 I think it is right to refresh your >memory as long as I live in the tent of this body). Thanks for taking the >time to read This, My Core Dump. I not only read it, but even commented it... >I invite comments to be sent by bus, plane, train, automobile, phone, mail >or e-mail. Don't you have a fax? :) Timothy From popserver Sat Jan 20 17:01:21 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["9029" "Sat" "20" "January" "1996" "15:14:58" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "179" "To Kelly" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id GAA27899 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 06:13:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA05197 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 20 Jan 1996 15:14:54 +0100 Message-Id: <199601201414.AA05197@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: To Kelly Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 15:14:58 +0100 Tim replies to Kelly: >> OK, but we don't need much manufacturing after the initial build up. It >> takes much less effort to keep what you have than to build something from >> scratch. >> Also a big amount of the 95% spend on manufacturing are the cost for raw >> materials, I expect the cost of mining raw materials will be less at TC >> because we can pick the easiest sites. No deep-sea oil drilling, most ores >> we need will be somewhere near the surface. > >Raw materials will be in space. MOst of the best ore beds on earth are >crashed asteroids. We can go to the source! Yes, that's what I meant, so that means a saving of say 80% with respect to the raw materials. Thus we have 5% spent on R&D and 15% spent on other man-power. >Its not allways easier to maintain an established thing then to build a new >thing to replace it. Often its much more expensive to maintain the old thing >then replace it. Thats especially true of light high performance things like >space ships, trucks, and cars. We could be a bit more effocent then people >are here on earth, but not dramatically so. If we could, people would do >that here to save money. Actually since we'ld be doing things in small >coustom bunches, not large mass production lots like back here on earth. > We'll be far less efficent in T.C. space. People do buy new things because they can faster earn the money for a new object than repair it themselves or take the trouble and time to get it repaired. >> I still don't see why it is not possible to scale things down. If you need >> 1 million people to feed 3 million people why can't you do with 100 workers >> for 300 people? > >Actually it takes a couple dozen people to feed 3 million people. But to >maintain a socyiety it takes millions of differnt professions. You cant >train 100 people, to each do 60,000 professions and do them well. And we >arn't in a good position to deal with a lot of sloppy workmanship. I hoped you would take the word feed not literally... Anyway a lot of these professions are sub-divisions of other ones, how many "professions" are taught at universities and schools? All economic, administrative, trade and a lot of social professions won't be needed that bad in a small independant colony. You said yourself that the bigger the group, the more coordination is needed. >>>Later in this letter you mentioned this idea again and suggested if systems >>>were designed to be maintained they would require less replacement. To a >>>degree true. But after a couple decades everthing wears out; and the reason >>>we got used to throwing away things rather than repairing them, is its >>>cheaper and takes less effort. >> >> Yes, but in those decades you would need much less new materials meaning a >> lot less work. The cheaper-throwing-away habit will not work on TC because >> it will take more effort to build a completely new object than to replace a >> single part. The reason that I mentioned this was not to say that things >> wouldn't wear out, but that the amount of work needed would be less since >> not all parts of the object have to be replaced each time. > >Why do you say, a few decades? What would change after 30 or 70 years? Are >you expecting better ships or something? No, you misunderstood, I meant the time that the objects would last. Of course there isn't really a duration that an object lasts because it has had many repairs, but I meant that time was equal to the breakdowntime of the last part. So by the time all parts have been replaced once or more times, you should add up the work for building say 100 new sets each having 100 parts OR replacing and making 1000 new parts. ============================================================================ >No the fuel is still multiplied by tweenty. Thats the whole point. OK, I think I see what you mean. >Earth got life very quickly after it cooled. Mars may have life. Then their >is Venus whose crust is wrong which makes it to hoot. What does that give >you for odds? And is it an average sample? Given the extreams of >temperature, radiation, chemistry, etc.. that life lives in on earth. > (icewater, nuclear reactor cores, water hundreds of centigrade above 0, >deserts) I'ld expect to find life almost anywhere. What kind of live lives around nuclear reactor cores? I've heard that some old corpses were not decomposed because they were burried in a cave where the radiaton level was so high that even the decomposing bacteria couldn't live there. Mars may have life but if we won't check it we can't be sure, so lets launch a simple rocked, that takes some samples and analizes them for some traces of life. >Venuses temp is NOT due to its atmosphere. Its due to its crust, its a >fraction of the thickness of earth crust and doesn't insulate well enough to >keep the surface cool. So after the venus cools down slowly, the crust will get thicker and it may become like Earth? >You can get just as dead in liquid air as in liquid metal. Eiather way your >pushing equipment hard, and without a good survival odds when it fails. I wasn't assuming a planet with an liquid metal atmosphere. By the way it would be hard to build something there. >> I'm not sure, would recycling not have a bigger influence on reducing the >> need for raw materials? Taking all the rubbish down means that the rubbish >> on Earth would increase, and we already have to much of that. > >For ecology purposes moving heavy industry off planet would do more than >anything else to ease ecology strain. Of course their are international >political and cultural problems with that (proably a couple of wars with the >third world). Heavy industry on Earth is so dirty because it uses a lot of energy and doesn't take enough care about its side-products. When fusion becomes normal, energy is very clean. And in space you can't just leave all the dust flying around either. >Stuff can't be recycled forever. After a while it just doesn't make any >sence. Right now we in the (throw it all away) U.S. have litle real problem >with waste disposal (though an incredible amount of political problems). > about 80%-90% of our garbage is paper and similar compustables. The small >fraction of metals and plastics %5ish, can be broken down or shiped into >space if you crazy enough. Besides if the industry moves off planet to get >to the resources, the materials to be recycled would need to be shiped up to >be recycled anyway. Shipping up takes large amounts of energy, that means an environmental problem unless you use fusion power. >No I ment no food raiseing. Oh, you can have a couple of tomato plants in >your apartment for recretion. But farm systems weigh too much if your only >going out for a couple of decades.. But why did you speak about veggies(10 tomatos a year?), bread/pasta(corn), meat/chickens(need food=plants too)? >I know ther are dozens of differnt anti-biotics each tailored to various >things (and most becoming ineffective), but I don't know much more than that. You are talking about the small-spectre anti-biotics. The ineffectiveness is caused mainly by the not finishing the cure and thus allowing the bacteria to become resistant. Broad spectre are useful if a bacteria with a lot of different brothers and sisters is active. Broad specre anti-biotics kill several different bacteria. > Why would you think we could fight them? Because I think we are smart and that since life is universal it will be like the organisms we know because the set of chemical reactions that can support life is very limited. In fact if there is alien intelligent live (which is no doubt about) they will have hands like we do (a finger more or less) just because that is necessary to get intelligent. (intelligence without a need means nothing to Darwin) So they won't have claws or hoofs or fins because these don't need a big brain to use. They also will have some light sensative organs (otherwise a even small brain isn't needed). They will need touch and taste/smell senses. So that makes them already a lot like the organisms we know. So, the don't walk on all limbs otherwise the hands cannot get sophisticated enough. That makes that they are standing up if the have 4 limbs. If they have more limbs. More limbs is not very efficient for larger organisms that have to carry a brain of 1 kg. So they have a brain, would it be like we know it or are there some radical different possibilities, I don't think there are, as I said before there is a very limited set of chemical reactions that can be used. So they have a large brain similar to ours, and need a lot of oxigen to keep it working. So they have one or 2 longs and hearts. They need to feed themselfs, so they have teeth. They are probably omnivores, planteaters need to much time eating, so haven't time to do something else. Carnivores need all their legs to catch their prey. OK why not reptiles? They are half coldblooded and can't really function without some external heat. Timothy From popserver Sat Jan 20 17:01:25 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1327" "Sat" "20" "January" "1996" "15:15:09" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "28" "To Kevin" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id GAA27904 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 06:13:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA05205 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 20 Jan 1996 15:15:04 +0100 Message-Id: <199601201415.AA05205@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: To Kevin Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 15:15:09 +0100 Tim replies to Kevin: >My point about the amish, is that by sticking to a particular point in >developement (whether that point is 1840's, 1900's, 1940' or 2000's >doesn't matter) one can significantly reduce the amount of "effort" >needed to keep the society going. Add to that the fact that much of >earth-bound technology is _deliberately_ inefficient, and I think we can >get much better than a ten or one hundred fold reduction in personal. I >think we could get that, just by standardizing the equipment, and >roboticizing much of the routine jobs. Indeed, a lot of extra work is done because of all different brands that want to make their product just that much different that is impossible to use each others parts. On TC we won't make 20 sorts of beer or wine (Just an example, I'm not suggesting that a brewery is build). All members of the crew have to give up some of their personal preferences. >I also think your warehouse vs farm numbers are off, as in your farm >estimates, you are assumeing some kind of soil, and not taking into >account hydroponics. without the soil, the weight goes down drastically, >since the water can be re-cycled endlessly. >Kevin in the frozen North Yes, what from what I hear on the news, you have to create a selfsufficient community if you want to survive. Tim From popserver Sat Jan 20 17:01:31 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2871" "Sat" "20" "January" "1996" "15:15:13" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "65" "To Kevin and Kelly" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id GAA27914 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 06:13:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA05211 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 20 Jan 1996 15:15:08 +0100 Message-Id: <199601201415.AA05211@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: To Kevin and Kelly Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 15:15:13 +0100 >Actually there is a three way split. Build, repair, carry spares. In our >case the ship would need to be most concerned about mass. I.E. you might >be able to make new I.C. chips, but the chips manufacturing equip would >weigh more then a 40 year supply of circuts. Other things like exotic hard >to manufacture alloys, composits, cermats, whatever, that the shuttles >would need. Might require equipment too large to be carried along. If we use self reproducing robots, a chip-backery should be on board anyway. >Bottom line things will wear out. When it comes to the point that the >frames, hulls, main power systems and such have reached their service >lives. They are not practical to repair, they are scrap. You can remelt the metal and make new plates. >Unless your >proposing bringing all the equipment that every high end manufacturer uses. Yes, but how much equipment are we talking about, we need machines for: - Metal treatment - Plastic treatment - Semiconductor treatment - Glas treatment >Judging from the fact they work harder at maintaining there lowtech comune >life style then I do my high tech style, I'm not sure about your >comparison. Using this analogy, won't the futere bring us a complete automatic world, where no one needs to work? >The military is probably a better example. They need rugged equipment, and >keep it for decades with limited upgrades. But sooner or later it wears >out and has to be thrown away. Yes, but then you have had more than enough time to build a replacement. >I totaly disagre with your assumption that a most social effort is senceles >inovation for novelties sake. Thing have to be replaced routinly. MOst >industries have to live with the fact of market saturation. A lot of computers are not being replaced because they completely don't work any more but just because the competion has faster ones. Indeed this is not true for all objects, like chairs etc. But if the chair is made of steel and plastic, it is unlikely that the whole chair has to be replaced at once. Maybe a leg will break of, but can be welded again. The plastic seat may tear but can be easely replaced. >In theory thats true. Reality doesn't live there. The limits are >practicality. You could break everything down to basic chemicals, ion >separate them to acceptable prurity, and mine that like ore. But what >sence would that make? Could you afford to bring along all that equiment? >Even if you could what advantage would it give you? Isn't it possible to make objects with unmixed materials, so that the recycle-ability is enlarged much more, long enough to last the lives of the crew. >The weight estimates were from the old stanford study. which used mixed >soil and hydro farming. (Hydro isn't that light, I mean water is heavy >too.) That water you need always, even if you use frozen food. Timothy From popserver Sat Jan 20 19:29:29 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5300" "Sat" "20" "January" "1996" "13:06:26" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "117" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id LAA10332 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 11:05:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Sat, 20 Jan 96 13:06:27 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199601191900.AA09442@student.utwente.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: interstellar drive group , David@interworld.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 , KellySt@aol.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com, Steve VanDevender , T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 13:06:26 -0600 (CST) On Fri, 19 Jan 1996, Timothy van der Linden wrote: > >I think the heat could be kept below the melting point of silicon. As > >the Temperature goes up, so does the blackbody radiation. > > But since the doped silicon is quite temperature sensative 100 degrees extra > may have a bigger effect than you would expect. I guess that I have more confidence in materials science advances, I think that a Photovoltaic material can be manufactured that will work in the high temp/high rad environment > > > > > >That reminds me of a great new travel method making use of Hiesenberg > >Uncertainty principle: as Temperature approaches Abs Zero, Momentum > >becomes zero to the last decimal, and the position becomes _infinite_. > > It is not the position that becomes infinite but the PROBABILITY of its > position that becomes infinite. May look the same, but is different. The Ah, yes, I see. I knew that, but must have forgotten it. so i guess it would work, you just would be able to steer. Oh well. Back to the drawing board. > The fact that a particle can move lightyears be everywhere is As you can > see, this Although this may look as if it is conflict with the finite speed > of light there is a deeper understanding that solves this "paradox". I'm sorry, I don't understand your language here. Can you please re-phrase, check your dictionary, or insert the word or words you may have dropped. > >Solid yes. Metal, no. at one atm, hydrogen becomes an ice-like solid, > >which does not have any free electrons. only at great pressures > >(ie Jovian core) does the hydrogen take on any metallic properties. > > I didn't know that, do you know a subject or book about that, where I can > search for in a library? Sorry no, it's part of the great storehouse of knowledge that i have come across in almost fifteen years of reading every science magazine I can get my hands on. i think this subject appeared in OMNI, someone somewhere was claiming to have put a _lot_ of pressure on a small sample of hydrogen and gotten it to a metal state. > >> (Note: Probably all robots will be worn out after a few years, so you may > >> need 3 or 4 times more than you originally would think, that would only cost > >> a few days extra) > > > >Any robot could probably repaired far cheaper than it could be re-built > >from scratch, and this could be done at any time, not just at the outset > > Repairing is rather difficult, for some dumb replicating machine it is > probably much easier to make a new one than to look for the non-working part > and replace it. It is just like a conveyer belt, there is a gain because of > the repetative task. OK, I see. but a small number of units could be devoted to the constant manufacture of robots (which would then go off and do other things) so that replacement units were always ready. > > >in thinking about this, i was struck by the comment you made about the > >radius of the solar collector being about the same as the face of the > >moon, and i thought, what if instead of putting it (the collector) in > >orbit around the sun at Mercury's distance, why not just cover the > >surface of mercury with solar panels? (not too difficult if you have > >self-replicating robots) They could exist underground safely, and the > >maser array could be placed on the south pole of mercury (TC is below the > >ecliptic) Mercury would provide more than enough counter-weight for the > >beam, and the low gravity would assist the robots in maintaining the arrays > > Yes, that would also solve the problem of the solar-panels and laser-array > being blow away by the photon pressure. A problem still present, is that the > laser-array has to be directed, wich may be a problem on a rotating planet. Perhaps not a problem at all, earth based telescopes track distant stars all the time. Being placed at a polar position would decrease the rotational velocity to be countered, and if the problem is insurmountable, then an orbiting waveguide can be used > > >> Computer circuits mostly need semi-conductors, so I think super-conductors > > > >Ever hear of a Josephson junction? > > Yes, but as far as I know a Josepson junction has nothing to do with > transistor like properties. (Or am I mistaken?) > > (What does mean?) means spelling uncertain. i think a Josepson junction is a tunneling transistor, and it only works in superconducting conditions, but don't ask me why, maybe steve knows. > It is fundamental, it is limited by the paramagnetic energy of the > electrons. If too many electrons are moving, the special conditions are > distroyed and superconduction is lost. I looked through some books and found > that the maximum magnetic field possible for a certain superconductor with > Tc=20K was 36 Tesla (Probably enough) But I still don't know the maximum > current. > > The field would be have the same value at 1 cm distance from the center of a > wire that conducts 350 Ampere. (rough approximation). 350 amps in a 1 cm wire ain't all that bad, but I know that the ceramic superconductors aren't nearly that good. > > >Keivn > > Is that your name in phonetic language? :) > Know, eye Think That Kell'ys Bad Speeling virus Has infected me. ;) Kevin From popserver Sun Jan 21 03:22:43 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4922" "Sat" "20" "January" "1996" "19:46:04" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "98" "Engineering newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id RAA00383 for ; Sat, 20 Jan 1996 17:44:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Sat, 20 Jan 96 19:46:04 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199601201415.AA05211@student.utwente.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: Timothy van der Linden cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Engineering newsletter Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 19:46:04 -0600 (CST) > If we use self reproducing robots, a chip-backery should be on board anyway. No, each of the robots would be able to make chips on their own, the process isn't all that different than making solar cells. Of Course, if they can make the chips they need, then the ones we need should be no problem. > Kelly writes: > >Judging from the fact they work harder at maintaining there lowtech comune > >life style then I do my high tech style, I'm not sure about your > >comparison. But Kelly, the reason _you_ don't have to work so hard to maintain your life, is because many other people (millions and millions) have specialized and are suppling the things you need. since Most of the Amish do their own Work (ie they grow their own food, repair their own equipment) the analogy is not fair. > >The military is probably a better example. They need rugged equipment, and > >keep it for decades with limited upgrades. But sooner or later it wears > >out and has to be thrown away. Actually, The military is a lousy example, they too are specialized, and if they weren't training how to fight, they would have plenty of time to build and repair whatever they needed. > > >The weight estimates were from the old stanford study. which used mixed > >soil and hydro farming. (Hydro isn't that light, I mean water is heavy > >too.) > > That water you need always, even if you use frozen food. In fact, you would have less water in a hydroponics system than you would have in frozen food. Let me take the example of carrots (simply because i happen to have a seed packet right here "Royal Chantenay", length about 5-6 inches, width about 2.5 inches) Assuming a crew of 1024, each of whom eats an average of three carrots a day, and a planting to harvest time of 72 days (right off the seed package) allowing 18 days for equipment down time, we find that each crewmember needs about 11 feet of carrots (planted 1/2 inch apart, 3 * 90 / 24 carrots per foot) If the trays are three inches wide, and 9 inches deep, and they are stacked about two feet apart, then we can put 16 trays side-by-side, and stack four levels high (1st level at 0 feet, 2nd level at 2 feet, etc.) then one "stack" feeds 64 crewmembers and we will need 16 stacks to feed the whole crew. The volume of the "carrot Room" allowing 4 feet at the end of each row, and 2.5 feet between stacks, and placing the water pumps in the 2 feet below the floor level, will be: (2.5 +(16*2)+2.5)*8*15=4440 ft^3 about 126 m^3 the volume of each tray would be 3726 in^3 for a total volume of 3.82E6 in^3 or about 2208 ft^3 assuming another 292 ft^3 for pumps, lines etc, that gives 2500 ft^3 of water (about 71 m^3) which weighs about 1.5E5 lbs or 71600 kg at any one time. Let's assume another 29000 Kg for equip (surely an overstatement, even Kelly must see that) and the total is 1E6 kg for all the fresh carrots you can eat (provided you only eat about 3 a day) Now let's see how many carrots we need to put in frozen storage: 1024 *3 * 365 * 20 years = 2.2E 7 carrots (this already goes beyond the mass limit) now let's see how much space we need, assuming these stored carrots are grown special for us, in that they are rectangular right prisms 6 inches long, and 2 inches to a side, we find that each carrot takes up 24 in^3 or a total of 3.1E5 ft^3 (about 8800 m^3) this weighs about 8.8 E6 kg The warehouse takes eight times the mass, about seventy times the floor space, yeilds smaller portions (24 Cu in vs about 37 Cu in for fresh grown) and the carrots will get progressively worse as time goes on for the stored ones.(can you say 20 year freezer burn - brrr) and if the mission goes beyond twenty years, you have to switch to freeze dried. I don't believe this treatment would work for every food, for example, corn would probably be better stored than grown. but potatoes would probably be best if grown. same with lettuce, tomatoes, Cucumbers, or any other plant with a large food to non-food ratio. I think i can make the same argument for chickens, and perhaps algea eating fish like tiapalia, but cows and pigs would be a definite out. (I still think we should carry a few as breeding stock just in case we do get stuck in the target system, or decide to colonize it. Animals might just be able to survive cryonic sleep by then, and any breeding stock should be stored as frozen and only revived if needed Please also note the following side benefit to growing our food. it makes oxygen. not enough to do without the mechanical scrubbers, but every little bit helps. Also note that it takes less energy to grow the food than to accelerate the extra stored stuff to cruising speed (and if we don't hit .99 C, then Kelly needs even more storage space) This should end the farm vs warehouse debate unless a flaw can be found in my calculations (always a distinct possibility) Kevin From popserver Sun Jan 21 17:00:57 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2279" "Wed" "3" "January" "1996" "15:10:36" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "51" "Carrots" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id GAA28448 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 06:09:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA12719 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 21 Jan 1996 15:10:31 +0100 Message-Id: <199601211410.AA12719@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Carrots Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 15:10:36 +0100 To Kevin: >> If we use self reproducing robots, a chip-backery should be on board anyway. > >No, each of the robots would be able to make chips on their own, the process >isn't all that different than making solar cells. Of Course, if they can >make the chips they need, then the ones we need should be no problem. That's what I meant, we have a robot on board with its chip backery. >> That water you need always, even if you use frozen food. > >In fact, you would have less water in a hydroponics system than you would >have in frozen food. I assumed freeze dried food, so a lot if not all (using special prepared food) water would be extracted. Of course it won't be tasty at all. >If the trays are three inches wide, and 9 inches deep, and they are >stacked about two feet apart, then we can put 16 trays side-by-side, and >stack four levels high (1st level at 0 feet, 2nd level at 2 feet, etc.) >then one "stack" feeds 64 crewmembers and we will need 16 stacks to feed >the whole crew. The volume of the "carrot Room" allowing 4 feet at the >end of each row, and 2.5 feet between stacks, and placing the water pumps >in the 2 feet below the floor level, will be: In 72+18 days a member eats (72+18)*3=270 carrots 24 carrots per foot, so a member needs 270/12=11.25 foot One stack has a length of 9*16*4=576 foot So one stack has enough carrots for 576/11.25=51 people. That means 20 stacks instead of 16 >From here I've a real hard time following your calculus... >Please also note the following side benefit to growing our food. it >makes oxygen. not enough to do without the mechanical scrubbers, but >every little bit helps. Also note that it takes less energy to grow the >food than to accelerate the extra stored stuff to cruising speed (and if >we don't hit .99 C, then Kelly needs even more storage space) I wonder, do plants that grow large food (relative to the amount of leaves) use more oxigen than they create? >This should end the farm vs warehouse debate unless a flaw can be found >in my calculations (always a distinct possibility) I found at least one error, and have some doubts about the volume and how much water is there in a single tray? (It took me a while before I figured out that 1 feet is exactly 12 inches) Timothy From popserver Sun Jan 21 17:00:59 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1527" "Wed" "3" "January" "1996" "15:10:40" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "37" "RE: core dump" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id GAA28452 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 06:09:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA12729 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 21 Jan 1996 15:10:38 +0100 Message-Id: <199601211410.AA12729@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: RE: core dump Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 15:10:40 +0100 To Brian: >>Why not use the beam alone instead of first beaming particles and then a >>maser beam to ionize them. Also tapping the magnetic field would probably >>have a very bad efficiency. > >I'm not sure I follow you here. Did I mension that I only want launch this >thing using a RPBP or PPP or whatever and figured on using an ion drive to >stop? Yes, I'm sorry. >I didn't think that 10 km^2 per unit would be enough to push the solar >collectors beyond what we could compensate for by adding some weight, >recycling them through Mercury, or whatever. I think the collectors will be lighter than our spacevessel the Asimov so their final velocity will be bigger than that of the Asimov. Adding some weight may help, but the total collecor should become at least 100 times heavier than the Asimov which is not very practical. Recycling to Mercury may not be so nice, the shear forces may rip the 10 km array apart. (I'm not sure how close you want to get) >I'm not convinced that 100 years would be too long for such a monumental >project as reaching the stars. I envoke the cliche that Rome wasn't built >in a day, much less the Roman Empire. I submit that this plan be considered >if nothing better can be done. While building Rome, people had direct profit, namely a save place to live. Building a "big rocket" may only give them a job, but who's going to pay them. >I've got to go RIGHT NOW says my lab monitor. I'll finish my responses >tomorrow. Thanks Tim. Don't thank me, it my job :) Timothy From popserver Sun Jan 21 17:01:00 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3990" "Wed" "3" "January" "1996" "15:10:45" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "86" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id GAA28468 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 06:09:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA12732 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 21 Jan 1996 15:10:42 +0100 Message-Id: <199601211410.AA12732@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 15:10:45 +0100 On Sunday I was writing to Kevin: >I guess that I have more confidence in materials science advances, I >think that a Photovoltaic material can be manufactured that will work in >the high temp/high rad environment Yes, I never argued that, I only wanted to make clear some side-effects. A question where I'm not sure about: Satellites often turn around their axis is that to equal the heat or is it for the gyro-effect? >> >That reminds me of a great new travel method making use of Hiesenberg >> >Uncertainty principle: as Temperature approaches Abs Zero, Momentum >> >becomes zero to the last decimal, and the position becomes _infinite_. >> >> It is not the position that becomes infinite but the PROBABILITY of its >> position that becomes infinite. May look the same, but is different. The > >Ah, yes, I see. I knew that, but must have forgotten it. so i guess it >would work, you just would be able to steer. Oh well. Back to the >drawing board. No it wouldn't work, that was what I tried to explain in the next few lines: >> The fact that a particle can move lightyears be everywhere is As you can >> see, this Although this may look as if it is conflict with the finite speed >> of light there is a deeper understanding that solves this "paradox". > >I'm sorry, I don't understand your language here. Can you please >re-phrase, check your dictionary, or insert the word or words you may >have dropped. I don't understand it either I guess that spelling virus has mutated and uses E-mail as a carrier :} So here is a new try: The fact that a particle can move lightyears in a flash is in conflict with the finite speed of light. So as long as you know the particle is there, it takes an infinite time to cool to absolute zero. >Sorry no, it's part of the great storehouse of knowledge that i have come >across in almost fifteen years of reading every science magazine I can >get my hands on. i think this subject appeared in OMNI, someone >somewhere was claiming to have put a _lot_ of pressure on a small sample >of hydrogen and gotten it to a metal state. Every magazine, thats a lot or are you never in a bookstore? >> >> (Note: Probably all robots will be worn out after a few years, so you may >> >> need 3 or 4 times more than you originally would think, that would only cost >> >> a few days extra) >> > >> >Any robot could probably repaired far cheaper than it could be re-built >> >from scratch, and this could be done at any time, not just at the outset >> >> Repairing is rather difficult, for some dumb replicating machine it is >> probably much easier to make a new one than to look for the non-working part >> and replace it. It is just like a conveyer belt, there is a gain because of >> the repetative task. > >OK, I see. but a small number of units could be devoted to the constant >manufacture of robots (which would then go off and do other things) so >that replacement units were always ready. You could use a small number of units, but I still think it is easier and faster to make a completely new one. (Compare with Earth's throw-away economy) >Perhaps not a problem at all, earth based telescopes track distant stars >all the time. Being placed at a polar position would decrease the >rotational velocity to be countered, and if the problem is >insurmountable, then an orbiting waveguide can be used I wonder if the telescopes do have the precision we need. What should I think of when you are talking about an orbiting waveguide? > means spelling uncertain. i think a Josepson >junction is a tunneling transistor, and it only works in superconducting >conditions, but don't ask me why, maybe steve knows. As far as I know it's not a transistor (i.e. it can be steered by a 3th port). A Josephson junction will give a very distinct Direct Current when placed in a magnetic field (Squid ) Or if an Direct Current is set over the junction it will give a distinct frequency. Timothy From popserver Sun Jan 21 17:01:16 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4150" "Sun" "21" "January" "1996" "09:21:19" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "90" "Re: Carrots" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id HAA05296 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 07:20:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Sun, 21 Jan 96 09:21:20 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199601211410.AA12719@student.utwente.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: Timothy van der Linden cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Carrots Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 09:21:19 -0600 (CST) On Wed, 3 Jan 1996, Timothy van der Linden wrote: > >In fact, you would have less water in a hydroponics system than you would > >have in frozen food. > > I assumed freeze dried food, so a lot if not all (using special prepared > food) water would be extracted. Of course it won't be tasty at all. and there could be severe vitamin depletions. > > >If the trays are three inches wide, and 9 inches deep, and they are > >stacked about two feet apart, then we can put 16 trays side-by-side, and > >stack four levels high (1st level at 0 feet, 2nd level at 2 feet, etc.) > >then one "stack" feeds 64 crewmembers and we will need 16 stacks to feed > >the whole crew. The volume of the "carrot Room" allowing 4 feet at the > >end of each row, and 2.5 feet between stacks, and placing the water pumps > >in the 2 feet below the floor level, will be: > > In 72+18 days a member eats (72+18)*3=270 carrots > 24 carrots per foot, so a member needs 270/12=11.25 foot sorry, I rounded to 11 feet > One stack has a length of 9*16*4=576 foot you have misunderstood the dimensions: (if x and y directions are paralell with the floor, then z is from floor to ceiling) and each tray is 3 inches x, 11.25 feet y and 9 inches z they are placed 16 side-by side giving each level the dimensions 4 feet x, 11.25 feet y, and 9 inches z each level is stacked with a 2 foot level-to-level spacing, giving a stack the dimensions of 4 feet x, 11.25 feet y, and 6 feet z each stack contains 16*4= 64 trays (each 11.25 ft tray feeds one crewmember) and 16*16=1024 > > >From here I've a real hard time following your calculus... it's not calculus, just simple arithmetic. I'm assuming that the end of each row will be taken by machinery, as will the two feet of sub-floor space. there must also be a interstack space to allow people to move about freely, I'm assuming 2.5 feet. Then I calculated the volume of water in the trays and in the supply lines I divided in^3 (or cu. in=cubic inches) by 12^3 to get cu ft (or ft^3) then I multiplied by .02831 to get m^3 the conversion from m^3 to Kg is the standard 1000 Kg/m^3 (yeah, I know that only works for 4 deg centigrade, but let's not quibble over such smallness) after estimating for aditional machinery, I then went on to show how many square "karrots" (6in by 2in by 2in) we would need for each crewmember) and how much space and mass they would take up. (assumeing that the mass of a "Karrot" is just that of the water. > I wonder, do plants that grow large food (relative to the amount of leaves) > use more oxigen than they create? no, the creation of the food (6H20 + 6CO2 + energy --> C6H12O6 +6O2) removes most of that oxygen from the system (plant) it is the non-food portion which consumes oxygen that can not be recovered. you can see this by considering what happens when you eat the food. the oxygen that the plant exhaled combines with the sugar that you ate to produced energy plus CO2 + H2O > > >This should end the farm vs warehouse debate unless a flaw can be found > >in my calculations (always a distinct possibility) > > I found at least one error, and have some doubts about the volume and how > much water is there in a single tray? I think that I have answered your "so-called" errors, as for the volume calculation, here it is again. 3 x * (11.25 *12) y * 9 z (where x,y&z and directions) =3645 in^3 *1024 trays=3.73E6 cu in /(12^3) =2160 ft^3 (well, what do you know there was an error. Luckily it was in my favor, so that means that theoretically al least it takes even _less_ volume) but we still need water in pumps and supply lines and whatnot, so let's call it 2500 ft^3 *.02831 = 70.775 m^3 (I called it 71) =70775 Kg assuming a 29225 Kg for machinery and such = 1 E5 Kg for carrots that take up (2.5+(16*4)+2.5) x * 15 y *8 z =8280 cu ft = 234 m^3 > (It took me a while before I figured out that 1 feet is exactly 12 inches) When you post equations, you can write in SI if you want to but I find when i am estimating sizes, that American system works for me. I will answer any questions you have on relationships etc. Kevin From popserver Mon Jan 22 07:48:45 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3078" "Sun" "21" "January" "1996" "23:48:38" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "69" "Re: Engineering Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id VAA21687 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 21:47:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Sun, 21 Jan 96 23:48:38 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199601211410.AA12732@student.utwente.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: Timothy van der Linden cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 23:48:38 -0600 (CST) On Wed, 3 Jan 1996, Timothy van der Linden wrote: > On Sunday I was writing to Kevin: > > >> >That reminds me of a great new travel method making use of Hiesenberg > >> >Uncertainty principle: as Temperature approaches Abs Zero, Momentum > >> >becomes zero to the last decimal, and the position becomes _infinite_. > >> > >> It is not the position that becomes infinite but the PROBABILITY of its > >> position that becomes infinite. May look the same, but is different. The > > > >Ah, yes, I see. I knew that, but must have forgotten it. so i guess it > >would work, you just would be able to steer. Oh well. Back to the > >drawing board. What I _meant_ to say is that we would _not_ be able to steer. The particle would disappear, but you would have no idea where it would appear. > > No it wouldn't work, that was what I tried to explain in the next few lines: > > So here is a new try: > The fact that a particle can move lightyears in a flash is in conflict with > the finite speed of light. So as long as you know the particle is there, it > takes an infinite time to cool to absolute zero. But, particles _can move faster than light, the tunneling effect is known to take exactly zero time to travel some finite distance, therefore speed of light is not the unbreakable limit we have been taught. Of course, tunneling is a _very_ _very_ short range phenomenon. now i suppose if you could controll the tunneling, so that all the atoms in the ship tunneled a few nanometers at the same time, and then immediatly did it again, you could in theory travel faster than the speed of light, since you wouldn't really be in this universe (kinda like hyperspace?) but that begs the question, when an electron tunnels a barrier, where does it go between here and there? > > >Sorry no, it's part of the great storehouse of knowledge that i have come > >across in almost fifteen years of reading every science magazine I can > >get my hands on. i think this subject appeared in OMNI, someone > >somewhere was claiming to have put a _lot_ of pressure on a small sample > >of hydrogen and gotten it to a metal state. > > Every magazine, thats a lot or are you never in a bookstore? > No, i said "that i can get my hands on" meaning there are many that I have never read (like OMNI after they started getting too paranormal) > >Perhaps not a problem at all, earth based telescopes track distant stars > >all the time. Being placed at a polar position would decrease the > >rotational velocity to be countered, and if the problem is > >insurmountable, then an orbiting waveguide can be used > > I wonder if the telescopes do have the precision we need. What should I > think of when you are talking about an orbiting waveguide? Since mercury's rotation is on the order of it's orbital period, i think tracking would not be a problem. Not really sure what orbit a waveguide would occupy As for josepson junctions, i obviously don't know what I'm talking about, so i will shut up. Kevin From popserver Mon Jan 22 22:51:32 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2245" "Mon" "22" "January" "1996" "23:48:59" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "52" "Re: Carrots" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id OAA18155 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 14:48:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA13506 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 22 Jan 1996 23:49:00 +0100 Message-Id: <199601222249.AA13506@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Carrots Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 23:48:59 +0100 To Steve: >> >From here I've a real hard time following your calculus... > >it's not calculus, just simple arithmetic. I wanted to boost up you ego ;) (or was it my limited knowledge about the English language again) >I think that I have answered your "so-called" errors, as for the volume >calculation, here it is again. Thanks, now I can see that you where right from the start, it was quite a bunch of data all stacked in a small text, now it is much clearer. >no, the creation of the food (6H20 + 6CO2 + energy --> C6H12O6 +6O2) >removes most of that oxygen from the system (plant) it is the non-food >portion which consumes oxygen that can not be recovered. you can see >this by considering what happens when you eat the food. the oxygen that >the plant exhaled combines with the sugar that you ate to produced energy >plus CO2 + H2O Yes, I knew that, and I'm not certain why I questioned the amount of oxigen created. I think I thought that at night the plant uses oxigen, and the larger the plant-mass, the more oxigen it needs. So I assumed that a large plant with few leaves used more than it would create. Has this thinking any realism? Brian do you know it? >> (It took me a while before I figured out that 1 feet is exactly 12 inches) > >When you post equations, you can write in SI if you want to but I find >when i am estimating sizes, that American system works for me. I will >answer any questions you have on relationships etc. I wasn't planning on doing anything else :) I just had never heard that 1 foot was 12 inches. It's like knowing what a decimetre is and what a centimetre but not knowing that it takes 10 centimetres to get a decimetre. The dodecimal numbering had not reached my mind until yesterday. Do you also use yards, chains and furlongs? As I also noticed there go 16 ounces in a pound. In Dutch there go 5 "ons" in a "pond" and 2 "ponden" in a "kilo"(=1 kg) Long live the English metric system... When are the Americans switching to SI units? The English now have an official law that prohibits the public use (in stores) of the English units. By the way it is here -2 degrees Celcius :) So about 29 degrees Fahrenheit. Yes, the Dutch people always talk about the weather :) Timothy From popserver Mon Jan 22 22:51:34 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1847" "Mon" "22" "January" "1996" "23:48:54" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "39" "Quantum Physics" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id OAA18166 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 14:48:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA13499 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 22 Jan 1996 23:48:53 +0100 Message-Id: <199601222248.AA13499@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Quantum Physics Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 23:48:54 +0100 Reply to Steve from Tim >What I _meant_ to say is that we would _not_ be able to steer. The >particle would disappear, but you would have no idea where it would appear. Yes, I understood that. >But, particles _can move faster than light, the tunneling effect is known >to take exactly zero time to travel some finite distance, therefore speed >of light is not the unbreakable limit we have been taught. Of course, >tunneling is a _very_ _very_ short range phenomenon. now i suppose if >you could controll the tunneling, so that all the atoms in the ship >tunneled a few nanometers at the same time, and then immediatly did it >again, you could in theory travel faster than the speed of light, since >you wouldn't really be in this universe (kinda like hyperspace?) but >that begs the question, when an electron tunnels a barrier, where does it >go between here and there? I wonder what magazine you read that stated this. Since I've no written anti-proof I will ask my quantum-physics teacher tomorrow. I know it is a short range (Low energy level) phenomenon (just like all quantum-physics) but that it takes exactly zero time I've never heard of. >Since mercury's rotation is on the order of it's orbital period, i think >tracking would not be a problem. Not really sure what orbit a waveguide >would occupy It still moves 47 km per second, but I don't know how accurate telescopes are, I will try finding someone who knows, until then I've no other comments with respect to the problem. >As for josepson junctions, i obviously don't know what I'm talking about, >so i will shut up. I don't know that much either :| but I listened once to a talk about it (although forgot most of it). When you brought it up, I went to the library to sort it out, what I read there faguely reminded me what I had heard before. Timothy From popserver Tue Jan 23 00:38:26 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2540" "Mon" "22" "January" "1996" "18:35:06" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "54" "Re: Chit-chat Absolutly _NO_ Tech Data" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id QAA27001 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 16:33:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 22 Jan 96 18:35:07 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199601222249.AA13506@student.utwente.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: Timothy van der Linden cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Chit-chat Absolutly _NO_ Tech Data Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 18:35:06 -0600 (CST) On Mon, 22 Jan 1996, Timothy van der Linden wrote: > I just had never heard that 1 foot was 12 inches. It's like knowing what a > decimetre is and what a centimetre but not knowing that it takes 10 > centimetres to get a decimetre. The dodecimal numbering had not reached my > mind until yesterday. > Do you also use yards, chains and furlongs? yes, I find yards are a very convienent measurement for most human-scale projects longer than 3 feet. Of course, the metre is only slightly longer, so it's really a moot point (BTW, the word is MOOT, not MUTE. Although I understand what was meant I do find it somewhat irratating) But I wont resort to spell-flameing. I really find yards useful in the 100-300 yd range, as you can easily compare to a football field (that's football, not Soccer) As for Chains, i was not aware that the unit existed, how long is it, and what is the unit of force if you accelerate a one slug mass at g0 for a length of one chain? :) And since I am still working for the Goverment, Please don't use the word furlough (oops, my mistake, I see you said "furlong", oh well no harm then) > As I also noticed there go 16 ounces in a pound. Yup, and eight liquid ounces in a cup, and two cups to the pint, and one pint of water to the pound. Isn't it amazing how all our units of measurement keep being based on water? > When are the Americans switching to SI units? The English now have an > official law that prohibits the public use (in stores) of the English units. I don't know, every time someone brings it up, all the companies cry tears about all the money they will lose. and all the consumer groups (buncha' Ludites) say that they won't possibly be able to keep from being cheated by dishonest manufacturers who will try to make everything seem bigger by displaying the weight, volume or whatever in the smallest SI Units possible. Imagine, you could get 500 ml of soda for only $2.50 why that just 1/2 a penny per ml! >8-0 > > By the way it is here -2 degrees Celcius :) So about 29 degrees Fahrenheit. > Yes, the Dutch people always talk about the weather :) Oh, you guys have it easy! Right now it is -5 farenheit, thats about -23 Celcius. and we won't even talk about the wind chill! Last week, we had wind chills in the -75 Farenheit range (-92 Celcius) anyone know a good sniley for "teeth chattering" all I can think of is *8->< but I think it looks more like "man just got hit in the Gonads" Kevin From popserver Tue Jan 23 01:29:43 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1133" "Mon" "22" "January" "1996" "16:59:46" "-0800" "Ric Rddesign Denisse Hedman" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" nil "26" "Re: Carrots" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: rddesign@wolfenet.com Received: from wolfe.net (mail1.wolfe.net [204.157.98.11]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id RAA00565 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 17:12:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from rddesign.wolfenet.com (sea-ts1-p45.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.99]) by wolfe.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id QAA18183; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 16:59:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199601230059.QAA18183@wolfe.net> X-Sender: rddesign@wolfenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric & Denisse Hedman) To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, "bmansur@oc.edu From": T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Subject: Re: Carrots Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 16:59:46 -0800 (PST) >I wasn't planning on doing anything else :) >I just had never heard that 1 foot was 12 inches. It's like knowing what a >decimetre is and what a centimetre but not knowing that it takes 10 >centimetres to get a decimetre. The dodecimal numbering had not reached my >mind until yesterday. >Do you also use yards, chains and furlongs? Tim Yards we use all the time, though feet is the more common unit of measure. Chains? Maybe not, unless you are a surveyor who measures land units. Furlongs. You bet. In Horse racing the track is measured in furlongs. > >As I also noticed there go 16 ounces in a pound. >In Dutch there go 5 "ons" in a "pond" and 2 "ponden" in a "kilo"(=1 kg) >Long live the English metric system... >When are the Americans switching to SI units? The English now have an >official law that prohibits the public use (in stores) of the English units. > >By the way it is here -2 degrees Celcius :) So about 29 degrees Fahrenheit. >Yes, the Dutch people always talk about the weather :) I work in the biotechnology industry and we use the metric system all the time. Metric isn't hard you just have to use it. Ric From popserver Tue Jan 23 17:01:18 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["21461" "Tue" "23" "January" "1996" "11:29:45" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.magec.com" nil "550" "Re: Fwd: LIT e-mail discussion group" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: kgstar@most.magec.com Received: from most.magec.com (gw1.magec.com [151.168.2.3]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id IAA16792 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 08:31:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by most.magec.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA21905; Tue, 23 Jan 96 11:32:16 EST Received: from unknown(151.168.254.82) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI021803; Tue Jan 23 11:30:25 1996 Received: by most (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05985; Tue, 23 Jan 96 11:30:19 EST Received: from ss4.magec.com(151.168.145.199) by most via smap (V1.5khhunt) id sma005965; Tue Jan 23 11:29:48 1996 Received: from [151.168.146.187] (kgstar) by ss4.uiv (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03521; Tue, 23 Jan 96 11:29:44 EST X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: kgstar@most.magec.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) To: Kevin C Houston Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 , Steve VanDevender , KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Fwd: LIT e-mail discussion group Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:29:45 -0500 Ok, here my first cut of a summary of all the options we've come up with. (or at least all I can remember.) I figure this is the next step up from Zenons proposed table of contents. We might want to work this up to a summary or central reference page for the LIT server. (More detailed secoundary pages could brach off it.) I'll do more as I get some time. (I working to finish the first draft of my secound novel! So I'll be preoccupeid) Please review and comment. Kelly ============================================================ Mission flight type --------------------------------- One-way * Suicide (explore and die before your time when supplies end) * One-way (Enough supplies are shipped to stay in target system until natural death) (For some inexplicable reason this option has one or two strong advocates within L.I.T.. I want it absolutely known that I neither approve or in anyway support such an option. Nor would I in any credible situation expect it to generate anything but revulsion among the general tax paying public. Kelly Starks - The Author.) >Pros The ship need only be designed for a one time, one way flight. This limits the technical mission risk and requires less resources. Least likelihood of back contaminating Earth. Establishes temporary outpost in starsystem. Allows investigation of the starsystem to continue until al exploration resources are exhausted or worn out. Presumably for a decade or so, depending on the service life of the shuttles or their support facilities, or the service life of the remotes. >Cons To put it mildly the public acceptance of sending explorers out to die the mission and die on the frontier is low. Risking dying maybe, but assigned/left to die by superiors -- no way. Every politician within ear shot will run in front of the closest camera to announce that he or she will personally lead the witch-hunt to track down everyone connected with suggesting this idea. It has been suggested (adamantly) by some members of the group, that this might be justifiable under some situation, or that this would be acceptable as a colonization mission, especially if the colony could be made completely self sufficient from the start. Aside from the technical impossibility of doing the latter. Its unlikely in the extreme, that such risks would be acceptable in an initial mission. At the very least the mission would have to be designed as a two way flight with the option of founding a colony or outpost. Also their would be considerable debate as to why we would want to set up a permanent outpost in a place we don't know anything about, and have no idea if we'd want to stay at. This debate would get louder when the continuing cost of supply flights was discussed. Other problems would be: The potential supply of skilled personnel would obviously drop, if they knew they were to be abandoned in the system when they finished the mission. Especially given that their project life expectancy (due to the lack of 'modern' medical facilities) would drop by a few decades, all but a few years of which they'd spend trapped in a traveling, or derelict ship. Lower information return to Earth due to limited baud rates of interstellar communication. Projected types of crew termination - Voluntary suicide at end of exploration phase of mission. This is likely as some crewmen decide to avoid living out the rest of their years imprisoned in a derelict ship. - Death due to catastrophic failure of vital ship systems as the ship wears out. Obviously the ships systems won't last forever, and can't be rebuilt or replaced completely. At some point it will simply wear out and fail. This could be a single failure, like a major structural breach of the habitation or support systems due to metal fatigue. Or a accumulation of lesser failure as sub-systems begin to unravel. - Death due to medical limitations. Given the limited medical facilities and personnel available on the ship. Crew life expectancies would be far less than those who stayed at home with access to modern medical care. Given the mid 21st century high-tech population would conservatively have a projected life expectancy of 100-130 years, with elongated vigorous years. (Some estimates are far higher.) The crews limited medical life expectancy may still be nearly current US norms. - Death due to chronic crew failure. At some point the crew will simply be to old to maintain and operate the ship, or provide their own medical care. At this point, without a follow on generation to rescue or care for them, they will slowly or quickly die off due to a combination of the above listed causes. --------------------------------- Round trip (Crew returns to Earth with ship at mission end.) >Pros Simplest option, and one with little likely hood of public objection. More likely to get more volunteers and better qualified volunteers for flight. This option implies that the mission is fairly short. I.E. within the professional life of the crew. This would imply its short enough to return information in a useful amount of time. (I.E. it would get there and back, before a later faster flight could do it.) It would return far more information than an interstellar communications link could manage. It obviously avoids the grisly public relations and crew morale problems of a one way mission. >cons Technically more challenging. Getting a ship to the target starsystem is hard enough. Getting it back would make it harder. But this must be traded off against the added complexity of a ship capable of supporting its crew for the rest of their lives. It has to be a fast enough ship to get back in an acceptable amount of time. To slow and theirs no practical reason to send it. --------------------------------- Pick up and return by follow on flight >Pros Most of the advantages of the round trip model, and would allow the first ship to be a mobile research station or other specialized ship, with faster courier ships providing round trip flights. >cons High risk and more complicated. Multiple ship types, and concerns that the first ship might be left stranded. --------------------------------- Crew constructs equipment for return flight This option come up with light/microwave sail craft, beamed power craft, and fuel launcher craft. The crew would construct automated duplicates of the systems that launched the ship from Sol space. >Pros Would establish launcher facilities in both star systems. Which could allowing faster two way flights with specialized fast light ships. The crew might get back faster with their ship using the constructed launcher systems for assistance. cons If they can't build the equipment, they don't get home. The construction phase may require so many resources that the first flight is devoted just to infrastructure construction. With little or no exploration being done in the first mission. This obviously would cool public interest and slow down the return of productive information. --------------------------------- Multi-step. (Ship proceeds to other target star after completion of first mission, in first starsystem.) >Pros One mission explores multiple star systems. >cons Technical feasibility is low since wear and tear on the ship would accumulate, dramatically increasing the likelihood of a catastrophic failure. Because of the extremely long flight times with likely technology, the mission would take so long as to be undesirable. At some point the ship would be superseded by newer faster ships sent straight out from earth, decades after its launch. --------------------------------- Multi-generation Succeeding generations of crew continue the mission >Pros This is the one of the standard concepts suggested to get around the extremely long flight times. Could allow extremely long flight times. cons The ship would have to be huge to support the active crew, retired/incapacitated crew, children, and all the extra support facilities and personnel they would require. The crew, ship, and equipment would need to be even larger than that to allow them to be able to completely rebuild the ship from the inside out as it, and its systems, exceeded their service lives. Any ship that takes that long to get to where it wants to go, will probably find it gets there after newer faster ships from earth. So their is little reason to launch it. The flight would take so long few people would be enthusiastic in launching it, even if they didn't consider the likelihood of faster follow on craft. I.E. why spend money on something you'll never see the results of, nor even ever know if they made it. The follow on generation(s) in the ship will have no allegiance or commitment to the mission or its originators (they, never agreed to anything). The follow on generations would have no hands-on experience with the exploration systems they would be expected to use. Or for that matter, any experience with planets and starsystems. Its harder to get qualified people to go on such a flight. People who want to explore wouldn't want to spend the rest of their life stuck in a ship, knowing they will never contribute anything but their genes. --------------------------------- Hibernation flight >Pros This is the other one of the standard concepts suggested to get around the extremely long flight times. The ship would not need to support the inactive crew. The crew wouldn't need to spend years of their lives waiting around in the ship with nothing to do until they get to the star system. The crew will still be fresh and familiar with their jobs when then are waken up in the star system. >cons The ship systems will still exceeded their service lives, but their may not be enough people around to service them. The sleepers could wind up dying on route as the ship died around them. The sleepers would have to be extremely well shielded from radiation, since their cell repair mechanisms would be as dead as they are. Any ship that takes that long to get to where it wants to go, will probably find it gets there after newer faster ships from earth. The flight would take so long few people would be enthusiastic in launching it. technical political Desirability Risk Feasibility risk Feasibility ------------------------------------------------------------- One-way med-low Medium Ex-high Nil Low Round trip medium medium low High high Pick-up Med-high medium medium medium medium Construct ret high med-high medium medium medium Multi-step Ex-High. med-low low Medium medium Multi-gen Ex-high Low high medium low Hibernation high Low medium medium low ------------------------------- ============================================================ Alternatives --------------------------------- robotic fly by's >Pro Could use a smaller lighter ship and could tolerate longer flight times. >Con requires extremely good A.I. systems and reliability (which may or may not be likely by 2050), and would generate far less public interest. Why bother, you could do nearly as well with huge telescope systems in the Sol star systems --------------------------------- Robotic exploration >Pro Could use a far smaller lighter ship and could tolerate longer flight times. >Con Again requires extremely good A.I. systems and reliability, and would generate less public interest. Would be less capable than a manned mission. ============================================================ Mission purpose --------------------------------- Colonization of planets or moons >Pro Very popular idea with public. Excellent staging area for direct examination of that planet or moon. >Con Expensive. Either the colony would need to be the size of a major city to support all of the specialists needed to support a self sustaining society, or regular (extremely expensive) supply flights from earth would be necessary. On a planet with a Earth-like ecology it would be a biological death trap. Alien microbes, allergens, and other unknowns life forms would easily defeat unprepared Earth mammalian immune systems. On a planet with a non-Earth-like ecology it still could be a biological death trap, and in addition have basic climate and biosphere incompatibilities (Wrong temperatures, air pressures, gravity). Isolation from resources. Ores, energy and raw materials are far harder to access on a planet than in space. Isolation from other planets. Their doesn't seem to be enough practical justification for such a massive undertaking. --------------------------------- Colonization of constructed space platforms >Pro Still may be a very popular idea with public. Excellent staging area for examination of the solar system. Much lower biological threat than on a planet with biosphere. The internal gravity, radiation, and environment can be precisely tailored to humans. Far easier to construct and service than a planet bound colony. Easy access to plentiful resources. (Space is considered so much richer in cheap, easy to access resources and power. That it is expected that Earth's heavy industry will migrate into space in the next century.) Could act as a servicing center and supply port for the starship, or subsequent starships. >Con Expensive. Either the colony would need to be the size of a major city to support all of the specialists needed to support a self sustaining society, or regular (extremely expensive) supply flights from earth would be necessary. Their doesn't seem to be enough practical justification for such a massive undertaking. --------------------------------- Infrastructure construction >Pro This could establish facilities necessary for routine, lower cost, flights between home and this starsystem. >Con Construction could take so many resources that little or no exploration will be done. Less interesting to public than an exploration or colony program. Could be very expensive. -------------------------------------------------- ============================================================ propulsion systems --------------------------------- Fusion feed from internal fuel sources. A fusion powered rocket could cross interstellar distances, and is a near term enough technology to be considered likely for the mid 21st century. Unfortunately the amount of fuel it takes to get such a ship up to a usable speed (at least 1/5th of light speed is necessary. More than a 1/3rd is highly desirable.) is not carryable by such a ship. Since the fuel would weigh hundreds to thousands of times as much as the rest of the ship. For example for a fusion rocket with a specific impulse of 1,000,000. If you wanted to use such an engine to accelerate a ship up to 1/6th the speed of light. The ship would need to carry 147 times its dry weight in fuel. If you want to get to 1/3rd the speed of light, it would need to carry 22,000 times its weight in fuel! Obviously no realistic ship could do this. (Note: a specific impulse of 1,000,000 (A exhaust velocity of 10,000,000m/s) means that the engine gives 1,000,000 pounds of thrust, for one second, for every pound of fuel consumed. This has long been considered a very do-able fusion performance number. For comparison the best chemical engines have a specific impulse of 455.) --------------------------------- Staged fusion ship You start with a 1 billion ton fueled ship cluster driven by a 10 million ton engine and support structure (yeah right.). That engine is powerful enough to push the whole mess with an acceleration rate of 10m/s. When you burn off 95% of your weight in fuel. The ship cluster weighs 50 million tons, 20% of which is a first stage engine/structure that's WAY too powerful. You throw the first stage away and start a smaller second stage. It weighs about 400,000 tons (about as much as 4 aircraft carriers) and can push the 40,000,000 ton ship cluster. When you burn that down to 2,000,000 tons of cluster you throw that away that stage for a 70,000 ton ship with 5-10,000 tons of drive systems. Which can use the remaining 390,000 tons of fuel to get itself into the system. stage total weight (tons) thruster pack and stage structure 1 1,000,000,000 10,000,000 2 40,000,000 400,000 3 2,000,000 70,000 ton ship with 5-10,000 tons of drive systems. This assumes a 100 to 1 thrust to weight ration for a fusion drive systems (which is questionable), and once you get where your going, coming back is out (unless of course you scale the craft up accordingly). But it would give us huge fuel ratios for relativistic flight. So, in theory, a Multi stage fusion craft could get to the star. Assuming of course you can find a billion tons of fusion fuel, and a ship yard in space that can construct a ship the size of an asteroid! Which means in practice the ship is unbuildable. These numbers of course assume the ship has to carry the weight of its fuel. Obviously craft normally have to carry their fuel, but their are some ways around it. --------------------------------- Fusion with externally feed fuel sources A fuel launcher is a linear accelerator mounted somewhere in our solar system. It throws the fuel out in front of where the ship is going to fly. The ship scoops up the fuel as its going along. This has several advantages. The ships engines only need to accelerate the ship itself. (They don't even have to adjust for changing ship weights.) The fuel is accelerated up by the launcher. This means the launcher system (who's power comes from unaccelerated fuel) takes up a large fraction of the load, and the ship saves a lot of energy. Problems are that unless the ship is flying to a starsystem with a operating fuel launcher. It can't fly any faster then a speed it can decelerate from using its onboard fuel reserves. Also, this only works when your close enough to the launcher that it can accurately launch the fuel to you. Once your out of range, your stuck with fuel your caring. Fuel launchers (or beamed power) have the advantage of eliminating the need for the ship to carry the heavy fuel (and power systems). That improves the ships power to weight ratio significantly. But the systems are difficult to do, limit range, and don't seem to help us to slow down. Beamed power Beamed power (or fuel launchers) have the advantage of eliminating the need for the ship to carry the heavy fuel (and power systems). That improves the ships power to weight ratio significantly. But the systems are difficult to do, limit range, and don't seem to help us to slow down. Beamed power systems are most effective as microwave sail craft. But powered electromagnetic drives are possible also. Anti-matter Can be destroyed to create tremendous amounts of energy. Releases over a hundred times as much power per pound of fuel as a fusion reaction. Unfortunately, though it releases more power, this power is harder to directly use to power the ship. It is however far more dangerous to handle. If we could synthesize the thousands of tons of antimatter this would take. It would have the potential of exploding with a force of hundreds of millions of H-bombs. We do not have the technology needed to synthesis, store, or ship anti-matter on this scale, and are not likely to get it by 2050. Ramscoop This idea would allow a ship to scoop up interstellar hydrogen and use it for fuel. Like a fuel launcher system it could accelerate to high speeds without concern for high fuel to weight ratio's. Unfortunately we don't really know what's in interstellar space, but we do know we are in a very thin part of it due to a recent supernova in the area. We might need a scoop thousands of kilometers across for a decent sized ship. We also know that straight hydrogen is very hard to fuse, and doesn't fuse as quickly as we might need. All in all we have no real idea on how to make such a ship work. Future tech The engineering and science we have now and assume we will have in the future will change. Fusion, fission, relativity, quantum mechanics, and a host of other basics of current physics; all were discovered within the last hundred years. We can conservatively expect physics to have changed far more in the next hundred years, then it did in the last hundred years. What technologies that age will have on hand are impossible to guess. They could have matter conversion, hyperlight drives, new understandings of inertia and kinetic energy, or all those and far more. Any of these would dramatically effect our ability to travel between the stars. So even though we can't come up with any practical ideas for exploring the stars now, we can be sure our descendants will find it far easier than we imagine. Kelly Starks ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Sr. Systems Engineer Magnavox Electronic Systems Company (Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From popserver Tue Jan 23 17:31:58 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1047" "Tue" "23" "January" "1996" "12:25:51" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "29" "Re: Fwd: LIT e-mail discussion group" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: David@interworld.com Received: from www.interworld.com (interworld.com [165.254.130.4]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id JAA20851 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:25:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from hal ([165.254.130.90]) by www.interworld.com (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 0-11464) with SMTP id AAA275; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:30:11 -0500 Message-ID: <31051A1F.788@interworld.com> Organization: InterWorld, Really Cool Stuff Division X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0b5 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David@interworld.com (David Levine) To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 CC: Kevin C Houston , Steve VanDevender , KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Fwd: LIT e-mail discussion group Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:25:51 -0500 Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: > > Ok, here my first cut of a summary of all the options we've come up with. > (or at least all I can remember.) I figure this is the next step up from > Zenons proposed table of contents. We might want to work this up to a > summary or central reference page for the LIT server. (More detailed > secoundary pages could brach off it.) I'll do more as I get some time. (I > working to finish the first draft of my secound novel! So I'll be > preoccupeid) > > Please review and comment. > > Kelly > > ============================================================ I really am working (in my spare time) on a new and improved LIT site. This excellent summary document will, of course, be on it. By the way, I note there is concern about alien biologies overwhelming our biologies. I think it depends upon how advanced the "exo-bacteria" are. There is also the possibility of OUR bacteria completely overwhelming the local ecosystem. This is, of course, undesirable. But not dangerous to us. David From popserver Tue Jan 23 18:32:37 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2313" "Tue" "23" "January" "1996" "13:23:41" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.magec.com" nil "59" "Re: Fwd: LIT e-mail discussion group" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: kgstar@most.magec.com Received: from most.magec.com (gw1.magec.com [151.168.2.3]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id KAA25890 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 10:26:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by most.magec.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA28698; Tue, 23 Jan 96 13:25:57 EST Received: from unknown(151.168.254.82) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI028630; Tue Jan 23 13:24:33 1996 Received: by most (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07721; Tue, 23 Jan 96 13:24:31 EST Received: from ss4.magec.com(151.168.145.199) by most via smap (V1.5khhunt) id sma007712; Tue Jan 23 13:23:43 1996 Received: from [151.168.146.187] (kgstar) by ss4.uiv (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01247; Tue, 23 Jan 96 13:23:39 EST X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: kgstar@most.magec.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) To: David@interworld.com (David Levine) Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 , Kevin C Houston , Steve VanDevender , KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Fwd: LIT e-mail discussion group Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 13:23:41 -0500 At 12:25 PM 1/23/96, David Levine wrote: >Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: >> >> Ok, here my first cut of a summary of all the options we've come up with. >> (or at least all I can remember.) I figure this is the next step up from >> Zenons proposed table of contents. We might want to work this up to a >> summary or central reference page for the LIT server. (More detailed >> secoundary pages could brach off it.) I'll do more as I get some time. (I >> working to finish the first draft of my secound novel! So I'll be >> preoccupeid) >> >> Please review and comment. >> >> Kelly >> >> ============================================================ > >I really am working (in my spare time) on a new and improved >LIT site. This excellent summary document will, of course, >be on it. Yeah, I know how spare time can fly (says the guy whos year old first draft Explorer starship design is still in work). I really miss having the newsletters run. At least we had some hope of getting new people (with new ideas) in that way. >By the way, I note there is concern about alien biologies >overwhelming our biologies. I think it depends upon how >advanced the "exo-bacteria" are. There is also the >possibility of OUR bacteria completely overwhelming the >local ecosystem. This is, of course, undesirable. But >not dangerous to us. > > >David I supposed we havn't been talking about the Earth plague risk much. Nasty environmental impact stament. "Ah, well we could whipe out an entire planetary ecosphere." F.O.E. would nuck NASA as a premtive strike! I don't really think the risks are due to sophistication of bacteria. Just the fact they might each be about the same level of sophistication, but inconpatable with the evolved checks and balences of the other ecology. Sort of like how Kudzu and fire ants (remember them Dave? ;) ) are taking over the southeastern U.S. They arn't better or worse, but different enough to not have a effective local opponent. Kelly ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Sr. Systems Engineer Magnavox Electronic Systems Company (Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From popserver Tue Jan 23 23:59:21 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["989" "Tue" "23" "January" "1996" "18:50:12" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "28" "Re: Bio-sphere-II" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com (emout06.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.43]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id PAA21680 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 15:55:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA24390; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 18:50:12 -0500 Message-ID: <960123184705_204915889@emout06.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Bio-sphere-II Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 18:50:12 -0500 To Kelly: > One of the Good things about places like Biosphere II is not what we will > learn about closed-sytem ecologies (which will be argued no doubt), but > what they teach us about our consumer society. What we learn to do > without and what we find indispensible >> Did you ever lok at all the high tech, high maintenence >> gear it took to keep Bio-shpere going? Oh, and it wasn't enough! >> > Kelly do you know why there was too little oxigen? >> > I've never heard the real reason for it, some thought >> > the oxigen had oxidated with the metal inside >> > the construction. I think that the glass may have >> > filtered out some essential radiation or it may have >> > dimmed the light too much. Nothing flashy. The concrete reacted chemically with something in the soil (can't remember what off hand, sorry) that starved the planets a bit, which cut down oxegen production. >> > Timothy >> > P.S. You guys shouldn't write so fast, I can't keep up... ;) From popserver Wed Jan 24 07:02:14 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["9861" "Wed" "24" "January" "1996" "00:44:33" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "215" "Re: To Kelly" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.12]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id VAA15430 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 21:44:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA21618; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 00:44:33 -0500 Message-ID: <960123225420_125364389@emout04.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: To Kelly Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 00:44:33 -0500 RE: Tim replies to Kelly: > > >> OK, but we don't need much manufacturing after the initial build up. It > >> takes much less effort to keep what you have than to build something from > >> scratch. > >> Also a big amount of the 95% spend on manufacturing are the cost for raw > >> materials, I expect the cost of mining raw materials will be less at TC > >> because we can pick the easiest sites. No deep-sea oil drilling, most ores > >> we need will be somewhere near the surface. > > > >Raw materials will be in space. MOst of the best ore beds on earth are > >crashed asteroids. We can go to the source! > > Yes, that's what I meant, so that means a saving of say 80% with respect to > the raw materials. Thus we have 5% spent on R&D and 15% spent on other > man-power. 80% 5% and 15% of what? > >> I still don't see why it is not possible to scale things down. If you need > >> 1 million people to feed 3 million people why can't you do with 100 workers > >> for 300 people? > > > >Actually it takes a couple dozen people to feed 3 million people. But to > >maintain a socyiety it takes millions of differnt professions. You cant > >train 100 people, to each do 60,000 professions and do them well. And we > >arn't in a good position to deal with a lot of sloppy workmanship. > > I hoped you would take the word feed not literally... > Anyway a lot of these professions are sub-divisions of other ones, how many > "professions" are taught at universities and schools? All economic, > administrative, trade and a lot of social professions won't be needed that > bad in a small independant colony. You said yourself that the bigger the > group, the more coordination is needed. I was speaking of professions in the sence of jobs. Yes you could do without a lot of coordinators in a smaller group. But you'll need someone good at all the little jobs a society takes to keep it runing (not to mention a starship). > >Earth got life very quickly after it cooled. Mars may have life. Then their > >is Venus whose crust is wrong which makes it to hoot. What does that give > >you for odds? And is it an average sample? Given the extreams of > >temperature, radiation, chemistry, etc.. that life lives in on earth. > > (icewater, nuclear reactor cores, water hundreds of centigrade above 0, > >deserts) I'ld expect to find life almost anywhere. > > What kind of live lives around nuclear reactor cores? I've heard that some > old corpses were not decomposed because they were burried in a cave where > the radiaton level was so high that even the decomposing bacteria couldn't > live there. Depends on the type of bacteria. Yes a type of bacteria (or maybe an alge?) was found living inside some of the old reactor cores. (I think the new sealed U.S. reactors are to clean to feed them.) They have also found things on the ocean bottom that thrive in water heated to hundreds of defrees C and loaded with heavy metals, or in a few cases that were happily eating old toxic waste dumps. > Mars may have life but if we won't check it we can't be sure, so lets launch > a simple rocked, that takes some samples and analizes them for some traces > of life. Technically we did that with Viking in the '70's. There turned out to be a design defect in one of the three tests, but since all three tests didn't confirm life, the official possition of NASA is that life on Mars has been disproven. > >Venuses temp is NOT due to its atmosphere. Its due to its crust, its a > >fraction of the thickness of earth crust and doesn't insulate well enough to > >keep the surface cool. > > So after the venus cools down slowly, the crust will get thicker and it may > become like Earth? If the sun doesn't swallow it first. Its been cooling for 4.5 billion years, so I think its a bit to slow to make it in time. > >> I'm not sure, would recycling not have a bigger influence on reducing the > >> need for raw materials? Taking all the rubbish down means that the rubbish > >> on Earth would increase, and we already have to much of that. > > > >For ecology purposes moving heavy industry off planet would do more than > >anything else to ease ecology strain. Of course their are international > >political and cultural problems with that (proably a couple of wars with the > >third world). > > Heavy industry on Earth is so dirty because it uses a lot of energy and > doesn't take enough care about its side-products. When fusion becomes > normal, energy is very clean. And in space you can't just leave all the dust > flying around either. Well its not just that. When you have to throw away 90% of the ore you mine to get the remaining good 'refined' part, you generate a lot of waste. Mines tend to be more than a little messy too. Fusion wouldn't intrinsicly change any of that, or much about industry in general. Of course if you move everything off planet you've obviously removed all the sources of Earth based polution. Dust in space isn't a big problem unles you fly through it at high speed. But they probably would do it so the dust was swept up by a planet or blown out by the sun. > >Stuff can't be recycled forever. After a while it just doesn't make any > >sence. Right now we in the (throw it all away) U.S. have litle real problem > >with waste disposal (though an incredible amount of political problems). > > about 80%-90% of our garbage is paper and similar compustables. The small > >fraction of metals and plastics %5ish, can be broken down or shiped into > >space if you crazy enough. Besides if the industry moves off planet to get > >to the resources, the materials to be recycled would need to be shiped up to > >be recycled anyway. > > Shipping up takes large amounts of energy, that means an environmental > problem unless you use fusion power. Well I was assuming fusion or nuclear power (or fussion electric rocket motors), but you could also just assume the fuel is synthasised in space. > >No I ment no food raiseing. Oh, you can have a couple of tomato plants in > >your apartment for recretion. But farm systems weigh too much if your only > >going out for a couple of decades.. > > But why did you speak about veggies(10 tomatos a year?), bread/pasta(corn), > meat/chickens(need food=plants too)? I don't follow. 10 tomatos a year? Why would frozen/irradiated/cryoed food need to be feed? I was just saying I was expecting to feed the crew a normal diet, of normal food, just like they would get from a grocery store. (Withthe exception of very light concentrated emergency rations.) I was expecting to do no/none/zero farming on board the ship. I did mention the crew could grow a few plants in their rooms if they wanted, but all planing assumes no extra solar food production. > >I know ther are dozens of differnt anti-biotics each tailored to various > >things (and most becoming ineffective), but I don't know much more than that. > > You are talking about the small-spectre anti-biotics. The ineffectiveness is > caused mainly by the not finishing the cure and thus allowing the bacteria > to become resistant. > Broad spectre are useful if a bacteria with a lot of different brothers and > sisters is active. Broad specre anti-biotics kill several different bacteria. > > > Why would you think we could fight them? > > Because I think we are smart and that since life is universal it will be > like the organisms we know because the set of chemical reactions that can > support life is very limited. > > In fact if there is alien intelligent live (which is no doubt about) they > will have hands like we do (a finger more or less) just because that is > necessary to get intelligent. (intelligence without a need means nothing to > Darwin) > So they won't have claws or hoofs or fins because these don't need a big > brain to use. > They also will have some light sensative organs (otherwise a even small > brain isn't needed). They will need touch and taste/smell senses. So that > makes them already a lot like the organisms we know. > So, the don't walk on all limbs otherwise the hands cannot get sophisticated > enough. That makes that they are standing up if the have 4 limbs. If they > have more limbs. More limbs is not very efficient for larger organisms that > have to carry a brain of 1 kg. > So they have a brain, would it be like we know it or are there some radical > different possibilities, I don't think there are, as I said before there is > a very limited set of chemical reactions that can be used. > So they have a large brain similar to ours, and need a lot of oxigen to keep > it working. So they have one or 2 longs and hearts. They need to feed > themselfs, so they have teeth. They are probably omnivores, planteaters need > to much time eating, so haven't time to do something else. Carnivores need > all their legs to catch their prey. > OK why not reptiles? They are half coldblooded and can't really function > without some external heat. ??? You need to study life more. There are other chemical combinations then ours that can suport life. Some are radically differnt. Some could not survive the presence of oxegen (as most early earth life couldn't). We don't know they are used, but they could be. As for your quick anatomy breakdown. We have hands and are the preeminent endurence pack preditors on the planet. Our closest runners up are Wolves. We have some notable anotomical differences for two preditors that specialize in the same eco-nich! ;) Our bodies are however, both designed to support the same pack endurance preditor lifestyle. (We are adapted for hotter climates though.) As for the rest. A set of crab claws could work as well as hands. Elephants trucnks can pick up indevidual penuts out of lose debreis, or lift a log. Life has a tendence to to use incredible resourcfullness to kill us. Kelly From popserver Wed Jan 24 07:01:26 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4969" "Tue" "23" "January" "1996" "23:30:55" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "115" "Re: To Kevin and Kelly" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id UAA11217 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 20:30:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA26632; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 23:30:55 -0500 Message-ID: <960123225325_125364581@mail02.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: To Kevin and Kelly Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 23:30:55 -0500 >Actually there is a three way split. Build, repair, carry spares. In our > >case the ship would need to be most concerned about mass. I.E. you might > >be able to make new I.C. chips, but the chips manufacturing equip would > >weigh more then a 40 year supply of circuts. Other things like exotic hard > >to manufacture alloys, composits, cermats, whatever, that the shuttles > >would need. Might require equipment too large to be carried along. > > If we use self reproducing robots, a chip-backery should be on board anyway. Self reproducing robots are a long way off. NASA did some studies that suggested you'ld need human level A.I.'s to make a truly self suficent system, and that assumed you could figure out the design. > >Bottom line things will wear out. When it comes to the point that the > >frames, hulls, main power systems and such have reached their service > >lives. They are not practical to repair, they are scrap. > > You can remelt the metal and make new plates. Assuming that you want plates, can re-refine the metal to eliminate contamination, have the metal manufacturing facilities, etc... > >Unless your > >proposing bringing all the equipment that every high end manufacturer uses. > > Yes, but how much equipment are we talking about, we need machines for: > - Metal treatment > - Plastic treatment > - Semiconductor treatment > - Glas treatment There are whole industries dovoted to each of those topics. They each have tremendous amounts of specialization depending on what sybtype you want. For example Kevlar manufacture and composite aircraft layup, and lexan window manufacture, both fit under "Plastic treatment". Its not like you can just toss an aluminum can into a melter and cast a new can out of it. In a lot of cases to 'recycle' the materials you'ld need to break it back down to to the periodic table, then build it back up. Thats why so little real recycling is done now. (Most materials in the U.S. that are collected for recycling, wind up in special landfills where they are stored as neatly separated garbage.) > >Judging from the fact they work harder at maintaining there lowtech comune > >life style then I do my high tech style, I'm not sure about your > >comparison. > > Using this analogy, won't the futere bring us a complete automatic world, > where no one needs to work? In theory it could, but historically we use most of the extra time to get extra stuff out of life. Amish in trade have far less, work harder for it, and must be partially dependant on the developed world. But they trade that off in complex and inexplicable ways. > >The military is probably a better example. They need rugged equipment, and > >keep it for decades with limited upgrades. But sooner or later it wears > >out and has to be thrown away. > > Yes, but then you have had more than enough time to build a replacement. But they don't have enough people or equipment to do so. So I doubt our little (?) ship would manage it. > >I totaly disagre with your assumption that a most social effort is senceles > >inovation for novelties sake. Thing have to be replaced routinly. MOst > >industries have to live with the fact of market saturation. > > A lot of computers are not being replaced because they completely don't work > any more but just because the competion has faster ones. ---- And because the cost of maintaining the old ones are more the the cost of buying the new one. > >In theory thats true. Reality doesn't live there. The limits are > >practicality. You could break everything down to basic chemicals, ion > >separate them to acceptable prurity, and mine that like ore. But what > >sence would that make? Could you afford to bring along all that equiment? > >Even if you could what advantage would it give you? > > Isn't it possible to make objects with unmixed materials, so that the > recycle-ability is enlarged much more, long enough to last the lives of the > crew. Only if the object can functionwith the simplified subset of materials. Obviously cutting edge or high performance equipment (superconductors, reentry heat shields, aircraft or high streangth alloys, fusion reactors, computer circuts, life support gear, medical equipment, drugs, etc...) can't get by with such lowgrade materials. So those systems would die as soon as they ran out of spare parts. Come to think of it even the rest might not make sence. After all, unalloyed metals wear out and corred FAR faster than alloys. So the alloyed version would outlive several recycled generations of the simpler primal metal version. > >The weight estimates were from the old stanford study. which used mixed > >soil and hydro farming. (Hydro isn't that light, I mean water is heavy > >too.) > > That water you need always, even if you use frozen food. Well you could freze dry it. ;) Actually you would freeze dry or dehydrate a lot of it. (40 year old damp flour? I don't think so!) Kelly From popserver Wed Jan 24 09:19:51 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["732" "Wed" "24" "January" "1996" "04:12:58" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "21" "Re: Goldin speach" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.37]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id BAA26781 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 01:12:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA02432; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 04:12:58 -0500 Message-ID: <960123225316_125363913@emout05.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Goldin speach Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 04:12:58 -0500 > To Kelly and Zenon, > This is a NASA-newsletter that I got yesterday, it > neatly reflects (y)our discussion which is going on. ADMINISTRATOR GOLDIN ISSUES STATEMENT ON CHALLENGER OBSERVANCE ------- > "I've said many times that safety is the highest > priority at today's NASA. We will not waver from that > commitment. But human beings have always taken great risks > to reap great rewards. Space flight is inherently dangerous > and every member of the NASA team understands those risks. ---- You can probably guess what I think of NASA's political speaches in general. Making this one on the ten year aniversiry of the Challenger loss is in particularly bad taste. Regardless of its being deceptive. Kelly From popserver Wed Jan 24 14:03:12 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1806" "Wed" "24" "January" "1996" "12:36:53" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "41" "Alien bacteria and biosphere II" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id DAA02170 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 03:56:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA11716 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Wed, 24 Jan 1996 12:36:53 +0100 Message-Id: <199601241136.AA11716@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Alien bacteria and biosphere II Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 12:36:53 +0100 >>By the way, I note there is concern about alien biologies >>overwhelming our biologies. I think it depends upon how >>advanced the "exo-bacteria" are. There is also the >>possibility of OUR bacteria completely overwhelming the >>local ecosystem. This is, of course, undesirable. But >>not dangerous to us. > >I supposed we havn't been talking about the Earth plague risk much. Nasty >environmental impact stament. "Ah, well we could whipe out an entire >planetary ecosphere." F.O.E. would nuck NASA as a premtive strike! Yes, if we have bad luck the planet will be rotting away after a few years. >I don't really think the risks are due to sophistication of bacteria. Just >the fact they might each be about the same level of sophistication, but >inconpatable with the evolved checks and balences of the other ecology. >Sort of like how Kudzu and fire ants (remember them Dave? ;) ) are taking >over the southeastern U.S. They arn't better or worse, but different >enough to not have a effective local opponent. Even if they are less sophisticated, the hazard of killing us is possible, just because we have evolved beyond them too far. ============================================================================ To Kelly: >>Kelly do you know why there was too little oxigen? >>I've never heard the real reason for it, some thought >>the oxigen had oxidated with the metal inside >>the construction. I think that the glass may have >>filtered out some essential radiation or it may have >>dimmed the light too much. > >Nothing flashy. The concrete reacted chemically with something in the soil >(can't remember what off hand, sorry) that starved the planets a bit, which >cut down oxegen production. So the problem could be solved in a new try, or even in the same biosphere. Tim From popserver Wed Jan 24 14:03:13 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4120" "Wed" "24" "January" "1996" "12:36:45" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "87" "Re: Chit-chat Absolutly _NO_ Tech Data" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id DAA02247 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 03:59:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA11621 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Wed, 24 Jan 1996 12:36:11 +0100 Message-Id: <199601241136.AA11621@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Chit-chat Absolutly _NO_ Tech Data Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 12:36:45 +0100 Ric wrote: >I work in the biotechnology industry and we use the metric system all the >time. Metric isn't hard you just have to use it. Yes, but before one can use it he should know the approximate size. By the way, I thought you worked in your own bead-store, or is that the job of your wife? ============================================================================= Kevin wrote: >yes, I find yards are a very convienent measurement for most human-scale >projects longer than 3 feet. Of course, the metre is only slightly >longer, so it's really a moot point (BTW, the word is MOOT, not MUTE. >Although I understand what was meant it Kelly ;) > I do find it somewhat irratating) But I wont resort to >spell-flameing. I really find yards useful in the 100-300 yd range, as >you can easily compare to a football field (that's football, not Soccer) I have never used "mute point" (I'm not sure though what I would have used if I did) but indeed Kelly used it 3 times since june 1995, 2 times wrong, 1 time right. (I don't mind you correcting some of my errors, if you think you see a stubborn error just mention it in a corner) >As for Chains, i was not aware that the unit existed, how long is it, and >what is the unit of force if you accelerate a one slug mass at g0 for a >length of one chain? :) 1 chain=20 yards 1 fulong=10 chains 1 mile=8 furlongs >And since I am still working for the Goverment, Please don't use the word >furlough (oops, my mistake, I see you said "furlong", oh well no harm then) Maybe you need some furl....? :) >> As I also noticed there go 16 ounces in a pound. > >Yup, and eight liquid ounces in a cup, and two cups to the pint, and one >pint of water to the pound. Isn't it amazing how all our units of >measurement keep being based on water? Well how convenient, you use different a pint for liquid volumes as for dry volumes. I'm wondering how you can keep up with these units. A lot of people in the Netherlands haven't figured out yet how many cubic centimetres are needed to fill one cubic metre. (This is really true, from my own observations I think that maybe 10% can give you the right answer in one try) >> When are the Americans switching to SI units? The English now have an >> official law that prohibits the public use (in stores) of the English units. > >I don't know, every time someone brings it up, all the companies cry >tears about all the money they will lose. and all the consumer groups >(buncha' Ludites) say that they won't possibly be able to keep from being >cheated by dishonest manufacturers who will try to make everything seem >bigger by displaying the weight, volume or whatever in the smallest SI >Units possible. Imagine, you could get 500 ml of soda for only $2.50 why >that just 1/2 a penny per ml! >8-0 Ah well, I wonder how the English system has survived so long, but I also wonder where the SI-system came from (and I don't mean from France where it was officialized) >Oh, you guys have it easy! Right now it is -5 farenheit, thats about -23 >Celcius. and we won't even talk about the wind chill! Last week, we had >wind chills in the -75 Farenheit range (-92 Celcius) And I'm thinking that it's cold here... One thing I'm certain of, I will not come and visit you (no offence :)) >anyone know a good sniley for "teeth chattering" all I can think of is *8->< >but I think it looks more like "man just got hit in the Gonads" Maybe :-|| for a guy who has chattered his teeth too hard. Oh, I asked my quantum physics teacher... first he said you were right, but didn't know exactly how to explain it to me. After the lecture he handed me an article that he had kept in his archives. Amazingly enough, the article convirmed my believe that it takes SOME time to tunnel. The teacher said he might have been wrong and wanted to read it as soon as he had some time. I've not finished it completely, so I will come back to it. About absolute zero, he agreed with me, but wasn't clear about the reasons for not being able to reach absolute zero. Tim From popserver Wed Jan 24 14:03:16 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5414" "Wed" "24" "January" "1996" "12:36:58" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "111" "Recycling" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id EAA02301 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 04:01:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA11728 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Wed, 24 Jan 1996 12:36:58 +0100 Message-Id: <199601241136.AA11728@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Recycling Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 12:36:58 +0100 To Kelly: >> Yes, but how much equipment are we talking about, we need machines for: >> - Metal treatment >> - Plastic treatment >> - Semiconductor treatment >> - Glas treatment > >There are whole industries dovoted to each of those topics. They each have >tremendous amounts of specialization depending on what sybtype you want. For >example Kevlar manufacture and composite aircraft layup, and lexan window >manufacture, both fit under "Plastic treatment". We may need to limit our subsets of needed products, so only one type of window if possible, if it is in the Asimov or in a small planetary vessel. We not only have to offer personal needs, but also general customized methods. >Its not like you can just toss an aluminum can into a melter and cast a new >can out of it. In a lot of cases to 'recycle' the materials you'ld need to >break it back down to to the periodic table, then build it back up. Thats >why so little real recycling is done now. (Most materials in the U.S. that >are collected for recycling, wind up in special landfills where they are >stored as neatly separated garbage.) How many of these separated objects were made for recycling? What I meant was that a lot of plastics should not be used, only the onces that can be recycled easely and more that one time. It doesn't need to be recycled infinite times but at least for some 100 years (10 times). So that does mean that a lot of materials can not be used, maybe too many, then there may be a problem. For the construction of object using several components, they should be build to easely separate them. That would also be handy while repairing them. The way Philips recylces their TV-sets is a good idea of what is needed. Now adays, they make the whole outside out of one kind of plastic, all parts of the TV are easely separated (no brute force needed). A lot of the tin solder is melted of the prints. The prints and their components are crumbled and the metals can easely be extracted. The glass-tube that is made of several kinds of glass, is a bigger problem, but they are working on that. >> Using this analogy, won't the futere bring us a complete automatic world, >> where no one needs to work? > >In theory it could, but historically we use most of the extra time to get >extra stuff out of life. Yes, but we will reach a time when the extra stuff isn't needed for say 21st century living, so that means it isn't necessary to work. Nowadays, we could live a 20th century lifestyle by almost doing nothing. Machines would do almost all the work for us, much less were needed to keep those machines working. Looking to earlier remarks, I'm almost certain that you don't agree to this... By the way, do you think that human AI can be rivalled by "computers" within say 300 years? (Just to get some idea of your ideas) >But they don't have enough people or equipment to do so. So I doubt our >little (?) ship would manage it. Don't they, if the soldiers wouldn't train all day couldn't they replace the army gear in that time? >>A lot of computers are not being replaced because they completely don't work >> any more but just because the competion has faster ones. ---- > >And because the cost of maintaining the old ones are more the the cost of >buying the new one. Yes, that is what I meant when I wrote that a lot of time is spend on R&D, if you would maintain what you have, the computers would become cheaper and cheaper because only the maintenance and rebuild cost would have to be paid. These days a lot of money is paid for the development. Of course this doesn't take in account the time that can be spared after the new products can be used. So if we go one developing like today's society, one day the amount of spare(d) time will be more than the time used for R&D :) >> Isn't it possible to make objects with unmixed materials, so that the >> recycle-ability is enlarged much more, long enough to last the lives of the >> crew. > >Only if the object can functionwith the simplified subset of materials. > Obviously cutting edge or high performance equipment (superconductors, >reentry heat shields, aircraft or high streangth alloys, fusion reactors, >computer circuts, life support gear, medical equipment, drugs, etc...) can't >get by with such lowgrade materials. So those systems would die as soon as >they ran out of spare parts. Indeed, some materials need to be refined to a high degree, but not all. Probably these materials are needed in small amounts, unless you want solar-collectors which need high grade silicon in large quantities. So maybe for a small amount of materials we can allow ourselves small refining machinery. Now indeed the question stays open, how many highgrade materials do we need? I've to think about that. By the way, do we need reentry heat shields, that is only needed if you don't have enough energy to brake yourself. >Come to think of it even the rest might not make sence. After all, unalloyed >metals wear out and corred FAR faster than alloys. So the alloyed version >would outlive several recycled generations of the simpler primal metal >version. Do we need alloyed metal or can we find a substitude, look at the cars that have a body of plastics instead of metal. OK their inner structure is still of steel, but it saves a lot. But is it difficult to recycle steel easely? Timothy If only we had replicators and the energy they needed. From popserver Wed Jan 24 14:13:28 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1772" "Wed" "24" "January" "1996" "09:11:18" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "40" "Re: Alien bacteria and biosphere II" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: David@interworld.com Received: from www.interworld.com (interworld.com [165.254.130.4]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id GAA07268 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 06:10:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from hal ([165.254.130.90]) by www.interworld.com (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 0-11464) with SMTP id AAA313; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 09:15:11 -0500 Message-ID: <31063E06.4C27@interworld.com> Organization: InterWorld, Really Cool Stuff Division X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0b5 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199601241136.AA11716@student.utwente.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David@interworld.com (David Levine) To: Timothy van der Linden CC: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Alien bacteria and biosphere II Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 09:11:18 -0500 Timothy van der Linden wrote: > > >>By the way, I note there is concern about alien biologies > >>overwhelming our biologies. I think it depends upon how > >>advanced the "exo-bacteria" are. There is also the > >>possibility of OUR bacteria completely overwhelming the > >>local ecosystem. This is, of course, undesirable. But > >>not dangerous to us. > > > >I supposed we havn't been talking about the Earth plague risk much. Nasty > >environmental impact stament. "Ah, well we could whipe out an entire > >planetary ecosphere." F.O.E. would nuck NASA as a premtive strike! > > Yes, if we have bad luck the planet will be rotting away after a few years. > > >I don't really think the risks are due to sophistication of bacteria. Just > >the fact they might each be about the same level of sophistication, but > >inconpatable with the evolved checks and balences of the other ecology. > >Sort of like how Kudzu and fire ants (remember them Dave? ;) ) are taking > >over the southeastern U.S. They arn't better or worse, but different > >enough to not have a effective local opponent. > > Even if they are less sophisticated, the hazard of killing us is possible, > just because we have evolved beyond them too far. Yes, the worst possible scenario: they kill us off, and we kill them off. Of course, this assumes that alien life would be based off of DNA. I assume it will be - but I suppose there could conceivably be other structures which could self-replicate, compact themselves, and do all of the other things DNA does... If alien life ISN'T based on DNA, it would be unlikely that biocontamination would occur in either direction. Chemical reactions (i.e. allergies, as someone - - Kelly? - - noted earlier) would be the biggest problem... David From popserver Thu Jan 25 04:21:26 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1287" "Wed" "24" "January" "1996" "17:26:09" "-0800" "Ric Rddesign Denisse Hedman" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" nil "33" "Re: Chit-chat Absolutly _NO_ Tech Data" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: rddesign@wolfenet.com Received: from wolfe.net (mail1.wolfe.net [204.157.98.11]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id RAA28094 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 17:25:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from rddesign.wolfenet.com (sea-ts3-p32.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.214]) by wolfe.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id RAA02826; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 17:26:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199601250126.RAA02826@wolfe.net> X-Sender: rddesign@wolfenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric & Denisse Hedman) To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) Cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Chit-chat Absolutly _NO_ Tech Data Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 17:26:09 -0800 (PST) >Ric wrote: > >>I work in the biotechnology industry and we use the metric system all the >>time. Metric isn't hard you just have to use it. > >Yes, but before one can use it he should know the approximate size. >By the way, I thought you worked in your own bead-store, or is that the job >of your wife? I have worked in the Biotech industry for the last 11 years. Deni and I started our bead business 6 years ago. We run it as a "side business" from our home. We advertise in magazines and on the internet. ( Check out our homepage in "Homepages for the homeless" Go to the bottom of the screen and do a search under the letter "D" ) I'd much rather be selling beads. :-) >>As for Chains, i was not aware that the unit existed, how long is it, and >>what is the unit of force if you accelerate a one slug mass at g0 for a >>length of one chain? :) > >1 chain=20 yards 1 fulong=10 chains 1 mile=8 furlongs I just learned something. :-) > >Ah well, I wonder how the English system has survived so long, but I also >wonder where the SI-system came from (and I don't mean from France where it >was officialized) Change is coming. Canada went metic many years ago but I have over heard construction workers still taking about 2 X 4 lumber instaed of in metric units. Ric From popserver Thu Jan 25 18:19:30 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["345" "Thu" "25" "January" "1996" "08:53:18" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "11" "Re: Chit-chat Absolutly _NO_ Tech Data" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id GAA13862 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 06:52:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Thu, 25 Jan 96 08:53:19 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199601250126.RAA02826@wolfe.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: Ric & Denisse Hedman cc: Timothy van der Linden , KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Chit-chat Absolutly _NO_ Tech Data Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 08:53:18 -0600 (CST) On Wed, 24 Jan 1996, Ric & Denisse Hedman wrote: > our home. We advertise in magazines and on the internet. ( Check out our > homepage in "Homepages for the homeless" Go to the bottom of the screen and > do a search under the letter "D" ) I'd much rather be selling beads. :-) where is "homepages for the homeless?" what's the URL? Kevin From popserver Fri Jan 26 06:54:04 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["879" "Fri" "26" "January" "1996" "01:50:22" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "29" "Re: Alien bacteria and biosphere II" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com (mail06.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.108]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id WAA25796 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 22:50:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA05417; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 01:50:22 -0500 Message-ID: <960125231328_304328005@mail06.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: David@interworld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl cc: stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Alien bacteria and biosphere II Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 01:50:22 -0500 Re: Dave L's Bio hazzard post > Yes, the worst possible scenario: they kill us off, and we > kill them off. Well that would sour kill NASA's funding! ;) > Of course, this assumes that alien life would be based off > of DNA. I assume it will be - but I suppose there could > conceivably be other structures which could self-replicate, > compact themselves, and do all of the other things DNA > does... > If alien life ISN'T based on DNA, it would be unlikely that > biocontamination would occur in either direction. Chemical > reactions (i.e. allergies, as someone - - Kelly? - - noted > earlier) would be the biggest problem... > > David > Folks, only Viruses care what the DNA of the victum is. Bacteria, molds, fungus -- in short every infectious desease that can be cured by anti-biotics. Are only interested in humans as a protean and amino acid source. Kelly From popserver Fri Jan 26 14:41:58 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5639" "Fri" "26" "January" "1996" "03:43:54" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "126" "Re: Recycling" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.12]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id AAA02508 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 00:43:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id DAA23554; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 03:43:54 -0500 Message-ID: <960126005312_304399304@emout04.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Recycling Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 03:43:54 -0500 > To Kelly: ------- > > >> Using this analogy, won't the futere bring us a complete automatic world, > >> where no one needs to work? > > > >In theory it could, but historically we use most of the extra time to get > >extra stuff out of life. > > Yes, but we will reach a time when the extra stuff isn't needed for say 21st > century living, so that means it isn't necessary to work. Nowadays, we could > live a 20th century lifestyle by almost doing nothing. Machines would do > almost all the work for us, much less were needed to keep those machines > working. Looking to earlier remarks, I'm almost certain that you don't agree > to this... I don't agree that most people would agree to much lower standards of living for lower work loads. Now people could easily live the life of people 50-100 years ago with much less work, but that would mean little to no medicine, no T.V., computer, car, stereo, electricity, indoor plumbing, insulated draft free homes, etc... Homes like that are now illegal in the U.S., since they are considered uninhabitable. No doubt our current homes and lifestyle will seem equally squalid and unacceptable to our desendants. So they will work longer to live better. Probably not as long as we do now, and they'ld demand better jobs and treatment; but they would still work. I have great faith in human greed and desire for a better life for themselves, their families, and others they like. > By the way, do you think that human AI can be rivalled by "computers" within > say 300 years? (Just to get some idea of your ideas) Pretty much what I was pitch in DataNet War. We can now build computers with complexity approching the human brain (computers with E 12 bytes of ram have been built, I don't think the human brains much more than that.), so if we can over come a few serious stumpliing blocks we could get human, or more than human intelegence A.I.s fairls quickly. 10 -30 years wouldn't surprize me that much (though I'ld be reluctant to base our starship design on that), certainly within the next century. Given that artificial intelegence would have far fewer limits to its development than organic intelegence, they could progress fairly rapidly. Probably being limited by fundamental limits in avalible information. (You can be a super genius, but if you don't know much more than others, you won't effectivly be much smarter.) > >But they don't have enough people or equipment to do so. So I doubt our > >little (?) ship would manage it. > > Don't they, if the soldiers wouldn't train all day couldn't they replace the > army gear in that time? Only if they built then factories and trained them how to build them. > >>A lot of computers are not being replaced because they completely don't work > >> any more but just because the competion has faster ones. ---- > > > >And because the cost of maintaining the old ones are more the the cost of > >buying the new one. > > Yes, that is what I meant when I wrote that a lot of time is spend on R&D, > if you would maintain what you have, the computers would become cheaper and > cheaper because only the maintenance and rebuild cost would have to be paid. > These days a lot of money is paid for the development. Of course this > doesn't take in account the time that can be spared after the new products > can be used. > So if we go one developing like today's society, one day the amount of > spare(d) time will be more than the time used for R&D :) Computers are becoming cheaper and cheaper by a factor of 100 each decade. > >> Isn't it possible to make objects with unmixed materials, so that the > >> recycle-ability is enlarged much more, long enough to last the lives of the > >> crew. > > > >Only if the object can functionwith the simplified subset of materials. > > Obviously cutting edge or high performance equipment (superconductors, > >reentry heat shields, aircraft or high streangth alloys, fusion reactors, > >computer circuts, life support gear, medical equipment, drugs, etc...) can't > >get by with such lowgrade materials. So those systems would die as soon as > >they ran out of spare parts. > > Indeed, some materials need to be refined to a high degree, but not all. > Probably these materials are needed in small amounts, unless you want > solar-collectors which need high grade silicon in large quantities. > So maybe for a small amount of materials we can allow ourselves small > refining machinery. Now indeed the question stays open, how many highgrade > materials do we need? I've to think about that. > > By the way, do we need reentry heat shields, that is only needed if you > don't have enough energy to brake yourself. Or want to save power in decent. We might as well use it, its one of the few easy tricks we have to save ship power. > >Come to think of it even the rest might not make sence. After all, unalloyed > >metals wear out and corred FAR faster than alloys. So the alloyed version > >would outlive several recycled generations of the simpler primal metal > >version. > > Do we need alloyed metal or can we find a substitude, look at the cars that > have a body of plastics instead of metal. OK their inner structure is still > of steel, but it saves a lot. But is it difficult to recycle steel easely? Its pretty easy to recycle steel, though the quality goes down each cycle. Plastics varry some are easy, some impossible. In general high streagth, corresion resistence, and general durability would require alloys or composites (give or take), which wouldn't recycle very well. > If only we had replicators and the energy they needed. Really. ;) Kelly From popserver Sat Jan 27 03:57:04 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["1094" "Fri" "26" "January" "1996" "09:58:28" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" "<3108EC14.A18@interworld.com>" "28" "Re: Alien bacteria and biosphere II" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: David@interworld.com Received: from www.interworld.com (interworld.com [165.254.130.4]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id GAA18422 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 06:57:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from hal ([165.254.130.90]) by www.interworld.com (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 0-11464) with SMTP id AAA264; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 10:02:06 -0500 Message-ID: <3108EC14.A18@interworld.com> Organization: InterWorld, Really Cool Stuff Division X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0b5 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <960125231328_304328005@mail06.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David@interworld.com (David Levine) To: KellySt@aol.com CC: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Alien bacteria and biosphere II Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 09:58:28 -0500 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > Folks, only Viruses care what the DNA of the victum is. Bacteria, molds, > fungus -- in short every infectious desease that can be cured by > anti-biotics. Are only interested in humans as a protean and amino acid > source. > > Kelly Okay, so reword my previous comments to something along the lines of "this assumes that they require the same protiens, etc. as we do to function"... granted, there's a much greater chance of this than us being infected by an alien virus, but I assume it is still possible that their chemistry/biology can be sufficiently different to make infection harmless. It's not my strong point, but didn't I read somewhere once that while a lot of the proteins, etc. we live on, while they can be either L- or R- versions (left handed or right handed), are all mainly L-? I think I read a short story where someone went through a strange experiment and came out with an R- based system, and no one knew it. He was slowly starving to death because his system couldn't use anything he ate. Or am I barking up the wrong tree here? -David From popserver Sat Jan 27 03:59:09 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6556" "Sat" "27" "January" "1996" "00:13:31" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "130" "Newsletter of MINILIT" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id PAA17726 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:12:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA07330 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 27 Jan 1996 00:13:19 +0100 Message-Id: <199601262313.AA07330@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Newsletter of MINILIT Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 00:13:31 +0100 Tim replies to Kelly: >> >Raw materials will be in space. MOst of the best ore beds on earth are >> >crashed asteroids. We can go to the source! >> >> Yes, that's what I meant, so that means a saving of say 80% with respect to >> the raw materials. Thus we have 5% spent on R&D and 15% spent on other >> man-power. > >80% 5% and 15% of what? Of the total budget spend by companies. You said only 5% was used for R&D, I say about 80% is used by getting the raw materials. Here on Earth those raw materials are difficult to obtain, in space it may be much easier (just scoop the surface) and thus less manpower is needed. >I was speaking of professions in the sence of jobs. Yes you could do without >a lot of coordinators in a smaller group. But you'll need someone good at >all the little jobs a society takes to keep it runing (not to mention a >starship). Like a hairdresser, shoemaker, tailor, dentist, doctor, cook? Are these the jobs you mean? I wonder if we can come up with more than 100 or 1000 completely different jobs that are needed in a starship. >Depends on the type of bacteria. Yes a type of bacteria (or maybe an alge?) >was found living inside some of the old reactor cores. (I think the new >sealed U.S. reactors are to clean to feed them.) They have also found things >on the ocean bottom that thrive in water heated to hundreds of defrees C and >loaded with heavy metals, or in a few cases that were happily eating old >toxic waste dumps. On the bottom of the sea, I can imagine, but in a high radiative field is hard to believe, the DNA would be mutated beyond repair within seconds. Can you recall the source? >> >Venuses temp is NOT due to its atmosphere. Its due to its crust, its a >> >fraction of the thickness of earth crust and doesn't insulate well enough >> >to keep the surface cool. >> >> So after the venus cools down slowly, the crust will get thicker and it may >> become like Earth? > >If the sun doesn't swallow it first. Its been cooling for 4.5 billion years, >so I think its a bit to slow to make it in time. I've been reading some data about Venus, and am quite certain that the biggest part of its temperature not caused by the bad insulating crust. There are is a lot of dust and posionous gasses, which create a very dense atmosphere (90 bar). This dense atmosphere full of greenhouse gasses (much worse than CO2) and the higher radiation level are the main reasons for the higher surface temperature. The percentage of reflected light by Venus is much bigger than the percentage reflected by Earth's atmosphere. So not taking in account greenhouse effects Earth's surface temperature would be 253K while Venus' would be only 230K. You are right though that it is unlikely that Venus would cool down, but for the wrong reason. Most gasses in the atmosphere of Venus would also be released from Earth if it was that near to the Sun. Once it gets released by the extra heat, the greenhouse effect takes over and makes things worse. After the greenhouse effect has taken over, there is no easy way back. >Well its not just that. When you have to throw away 90% of the ore you mine >to get the remaining good 'refined' part, you generate a lot of waste. Mines >tend to be more than a little messy too. Fusion wouldn't intrinsicly change >any of that, or much about industry in general. Of course if you move >everything off planet you've obviously removed all the sources of Earth based >polution. Yeah, that would be nice, wouldn't it... >I don't follow. 10 tomatos a year? Why would frozen/irradiated/cryoed food >need to be feed? I was just saying I was expecting to feed the crew a normal >diet, of normal food, just like they would get from a grocery store. > (Withthe exception of very light concentrated emergency rations.) I was >expecting to do no/none/zero farming on board the ship. I did mention the >crew could grow a few plants in their rooms if they wanted, but all planing >assumes no extra solar food production. My misunderstanding, but can food be kept for 20 years? >??? You need to study life more. There are other chemical combinations then >ours that can suport life. Some are radically differnt. Some could not >survive the presence of oxegen (as most early earth life couldn't). We don't >know they are used, but they could be. Why have these organisms never evolved beyond a single cell? And if they did as you suggest, why did they change to use oxigen? My guess is that it is for the amount of energy released during the oxidation process. What matters for a lot of organisms is the amount of energy they can get. Strangly enough, the organisms with a brain (small or big) are the ones that use most energy... >As for your quick anatomy breakdown. We have hands and are the preeminent >endurence pack preditors on the planet. Our closest runners up are Wolves. We may be partly preditors, but the larger part of our food were vegetables. (In these days of Kingsized burgers that may be hard to believe) Indeed wolves eat also some plants much less than we do. So as far as I'm concerned apes which also eat some small amounts of meat are a lot closer to us. > We have some notable anotomical differences for two preditors that >specialize in the same eco-nich! ;) Our bodies are however, both designed >to support the same pack endurance preditor lifestyle. (We are adapted for >hotter climates though.) I'm not sure anymore what you mean by predator, don't forget our intelligence has brought us far above any other species. So if we hadn't our big brain we would be very poor preditors. >As for the rest. A set of crab claws could work as well as hands. Elephants >trucnks can pick up indevidual penuts out of lose debreis, or lift a log. Although crab claws and elephant truncks are able to pick up things and perform some simple tasks, they don't come near the amount of possibilities that 2 five fingered hands have. Imagine you have a hand with a thumb and a single finger, that would mean a serious handycap all things you could normally do, would not be able or very hard, even many years after you had become customed to it. (And we don't have a solid finger like crabs do) So while an organism gets some usefull "hands" it also gets a smarter brain to use that "hand". Once the brain gets bigger it may be usefull for other purposes too, like better perception, better remembering, better learning. >Life has a tendence to to use incredible resourcfullness to kill us. We have survived a long time though... Timothy From popserver Sat Jan 27 03:59:12 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2286" "Sat" "27" "January" "1996" "00:13:52" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "52" "Re: Recycling" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id PAA17808 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:13:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA07349 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 27 Jan 1996 00:13:40 +0100 Message-Id: <199601262313.AA07349@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Recycling Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 00:13:52 +0100 To Kelly: >I don't agree that most people would agree to much lower standards of living >for lower work loads. Now people could easily live the life of people 50-100 >years ago with much less work, but that would mean little to no medicine, no >T.V., computer, car, stereo, electricity, indoor plumbing, insulated draft >free homes, etc... Homes like that are now illegal in the U.S., since they >are considered uninhabitable. Indeed, I agree. >No doubt our current homes and lifestyle will >seem equally squalid and unacceptable to our desendants. So they will work >longer to live better. It depends on what the gain would be. How fast will technology grow in the futere, will the exponential growth of the last 2 centuries slow down? >Probably not as long as we do now, and they'ld demand >better jobs and treatment; but they would still work. I have great faith in >human greed and desire for a better life for themselves, their families, and >others they like. Again, it depends on the gain. These days, many people decide to live from social finances and not to work and earn more money. >> By the way, do you think that human AI can be rivalled by "computers" >within >> say 300 years? (Just to get some idea of your ideas) > >Pretty much what I was pitch in DataNet War. We can now build computers with >complexity approching the human brain (computers with E 12 bytes of ram have >been built, I don't think the human brains much more than that.) I remember that the human brain has E20 neurons. But it is not especially the memory but the the connection between them, all have to be parallel. >> Yes, that is what I meant when I wrote that a lot of time is spend on R&D, >> if you would maintain what you have, the computers would become cheaper and >> cheaper because only the maintenance and rebuild cost would have to be >> paid. >> These days a lot of money is paid for the development. Of course this >> doesn't take in account the time that can be spared after the new products >> can be used. >> So if we go on developing like today's society, one day the amount of >> spare(d) time will be more than the time used for R&D :) > >Computers are becoming cheaper and cheaper by a factor of 100 each decade. Old computers are another factor 100 cheaper. Tim From popserver Sat Jan 27 03:59:14 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["9692" "Sat" "27" "January" "1996" "00:13:41" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "185" "Re: For Consideration" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id PAA17826 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:13:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA07338 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 27 Jan 1996 00:13:30 +0100 Message-Id: <199601262313.AA07338@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: For Consideration Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 00:13:41 +0100 To Brian: >>Ionize interstellar gas, you are talking about it as if you could see it, >>the best guesses are that the there is too few interstellar dust. Only a >>ramscoop with a 1000 km radius may be enough to make some significant use >>of it. >>I still have a hard time imagining how a magsail could work efficient, >>magnetic fields have the peculiarity to be not very bundled. > >When you say "bundled" do you mean that the adjacent fields have a >tendency to repel because of pole orientation and field lines? No, the field doesn't repell itself. With not very bundled I mean that if you create a magnetic field here on Earth, it will "dissolve" very fast. Thus unlike a beam of light it won't be noticed after traveling some distance. Of course if you would use charged particles, the field would stay bundled around them. But then I wonder why not use the particles themselves. Or maybe I'm confused about what you meant by magsail, do you mean a scoop? If so, why is it called a sail and not a scoop? >Or just design a multi-layer sail that takes the bundling problem into >account (isn't that what you already implied was needed?) I'm not completely sure how you plan to make the scoop, but I myself haven't the faintest clue how to build one that could be of any use to us. >As for the interstellar gas. Could we get even .01c down using a >100km wide sail as a paracute if it were deployed throughout the >cruising phase? I'm assumed that we don't try to ionize anything on >our own but use what little ionized material there is of what little >material there is in the first place. Even .01c would help if it >didn't cost us too much power to keep the magnetic sail powered. >Suggestion would be to use superconductive loops. I think that if you restrict yourself to already ionized particles, the amount of mass you can scoop will decrease seriously. >>We use engine thrust and centrifugal forces for gravity, there are no other >>known possibilities. > >I understood this. I meant that we would need to account for >vector accelerations in floor design, such as tilting the floor in >some way to compensate for the centrifugal forces and the >deceleration forces which would probably occur at right angles to >each other. Did any of that make sense? I think the group discussed that some time ago. Indeed the tilt-angle and the rotating-speed of the habitat-ring can be adjusted so that the linear acceleration and centrifugal acceleration together give exactly 1 g at the bottom of the floor (assuming that the linear acceleration does not exceed 1 g). There may be small problems with respect to the 6 tubes (see Kelly's MARS) inside the torus. Because not all points of a tube are as far from the center of rotation, "gravity" will vary slightly along one tube. (In the middle of the tube gravity is lowest) >You say we can't get our many tons of fuel to .3c? I think I must have >confused you somewhere (if I'm the one who is confused then we'll find out >real soon and I sincerely hope that you'll tell me). So, allow me to >rephrase my starship idea (you'll find I have to do that often to get my >ideas collected and across clearly). > >This ship design which we're discussing here is an ion or pulsed fusion >rocket which is launched using external fuel/power/whatever source from the >Sol system during the launch phase. As long as the fuel is prelaunced there is no problem, but you were suggesting to use the fuel as shielding. If you planned using that fuel for deceleration, it could not work because there isn't an engine that can stop it. >I do not believe that the drive will be either durable enough or fuel >efficient enough to run most of the way to Tau Ceti. The acceleration phase >can only last only as long as we can externally fuel/power the ship (say >half a year at 10 m/s^2). OK, If you assume a maximum velocity of 0.33c than you won't need such a long acceleration, but be warned, 0.33c will take at least 35 years to get you to TC. And I'm quite certain that certain members will not agree with such a slow mission. >I admit that I really don't have a clue to how much fuel we'll have to >carry/pre-launch because I don't know the equations that will figure out a >launching ship weight given how powerful the engine is, how fast we want the >ship to go, and how much the hull and fuel weighs. If you know this Tim, >I'm willing to learn. Going on the knowledge that a fusion pulsed rocket >(Daedalus class) is, in theory, capable of achieving a cruise velocity of >.15c with a ship weight of a few thousand tons and a fuel weight close to >50,000 tons, I figure that we could scale it up for a manned mission. > Again, only real stumbling block I see here is finding millions of tons of >3He in the solar system. m=5E7 kg v=.15c --> E = 0.5*m*v^2 = 5E22 Joule (= approx. 1.7E8 kg of fusion fuel that is needed to externally launch it.) >Of course, using Kevin Houston's maser idea would be divine and with it we >could accelerate/declerate the whole way. But I just don't see how he is >going to keep a maser beam on a starship that is 11.8 ly away. Or is it >11.9 or even 12.2 ly. I can't find a single pair of sources that agree on >how far away Tau Ceti is! I think 11.53 ly. >Therefore, I'm not willing to risk a crew, ship, >and mission on the chance that a maser beam, originating from Sol and using >NO deep, deep space correction antennas along the way to Tau Ceti, will >actually be able to stay within even an A.U. of the starship. As I said to >Kevin in the original Core Dump, if he can get his power plug to reach to >Tau Ceti with the accuracy needed, then we are going. Otherwise, while he >is working on that, I want to check out this option. Okay, now I'm really >getting repetitive (I hope you're still reading Tim). I've some one working to find the accuracy of modern telescopes, I hope to hear from him soon. >I proposed that to keep fuel ratio down we launch some of it in the form of >tanker drones to the target star at incrimental speeds of say .01c faster >than the previous tanker (.01c is arbitrary. If we have enough launching >devices, we could cut this even more). The slowest tanker will be a whopper >because it will have to carry enough fuel mass to slow the starship as much >as .15c. Any slower and it will be a century before it reaches its >rendevous position near Tau Ceti. Since the trip at .33c will already take >35 to 40 years, we can launch 60 or so years after Tanker 1. That is almost >half a century to improve the original starship design but probably not >enough to build a much faster one. >By the way. Personally, I don't think that we will be able to try this >manned interstellar mission idea before 2100 or later. Also, because I >don't see maser power reaching across the light-years to fire up the ships >engines for a return trip, and because the crew would have to weigh the ship >down with incredibly huge quantities of scarce fusion fuel/reaction mass, I >don't envision a return trip. Given that the speed limit I am hoping for is >.33c, half the original crew would be dead before they got back. The >mission we are considering here, then is one of exploration and >colonization: something humans should be good at by 2100 or 2200. Hmm, although your ideas may be more realistic than ours (the rest of the group) we had decided(?) that waiting 100 years or more wasn't realistic because we could only guess what techniques would be available. Also such a long mission would NEED to be selfsufficient, and a return mission would be impossible. About selfsufficiency, join the discussion... Brian wrote: >>For the cruising phase of the flight, we can afford to make a habitat that >>is spacous and comfortable. As soon as we want to slow down, however, >>we'll have to stuff the crew into a collection of cramped, space economized, >>modularized, trailer car-like habitats that fit into the cargo bay of the >>space shuttles that we'll use to explore planet surfaces. >>I'll rephrase the preceding. >>You had asked: >>After having thrown away the biggest part of your ship, how are you going >>to >>return? > >We are not. See above. OK, I see your point and indeed as you say it, it would make sence, but as I said before, the ideas of the group are somewhat different, so we have to figure out what we will do. (Is everybody listening?) >Since you made this comment I tried to brainstorm a few ideas. I was not >happy with what I came up with but here they are. >1. Fold and recapture the arrays at recycling stations in orbit of Mercury >and Venus perhaps. >Problems that I see here are with: > a. the stations. They will need positional stablizers, big catching >nets or magnetic breaks if we could fit the solar arrays into magnitizable >capsules, and high automation (course we assume that already. The way I've >been making the automated future out to be I sometimes wonder what the >uneducated masses will be doing for a living. Hopeful computers won't be >thinking for themselves yet or otherwise they'd realize their superior >abilities and TERMINATE us). There would be some counter force against the >incoming array capsules in the form of the relaunching capsules. > b. the array. They must fold themselves, not rip in the prossess, not >get stuck like the hubble telescope's panel did. I'm running out of time >and ideas. All this seems really complicated (and unreliable). And where did you plan to get the energy from to relaunch the arrays? (You'd be better of using that energy directly for the Asimov) Timothy From popserver Sat Jan 27 04:00:01 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2340" "Sat" "27" "January" "1996" "00:41:44" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "54" "Re: Alien bacteria" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id PAA19692 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:40:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA08268 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 27 Jan 1996 00:41:32 +0100 Message-Id: <199601262341.AA08268@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Alien bacteria Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 00:41:44 +0100 David wrote: >I was assuming something along the lines of crew members >being infected with some sort of spreading disease which >the other crew members contract, eventually killing the >entire crew. Meanwhile, some crew member happened to >have been carrying some kind of Earth bacteria which >winds up thriving quite well on the new planet, multiplies >quickly, and a few decades later (after our crew is long >dead) is decimating the planet. OK, but you remember, we have many bacteria on and in our body, most of them are necessary to life and without them we would be die very soon. So if we explore alien life we would be best of to use remote controlled robots to get the data we want. I only wonder if we can keep containment levels high enough so that no single cell is exchanged. What I've been thinking about, how would military be interested in these deadly lifeforms? Would they want them, or do they already have enough home-made ones? >Yes - Kelly just pointed this out to me, too. Biology and >chemistry are not my strong points. But I assume there are >still possibilities that would make even their bacteria >incompatible with our biology (i.e. using different >protiens that we do) Yes, I noticed it but then my letter was already posted, that's what happens when one has a pop-mail account and doesn't send a letter as soon as it is finished. >It's not my strong point, but didn't I read somewhere >once that while a lot of the proteins, etc. we live on, >while they can be either L- or R- versions (left handed >or right handed), are all mainly L-? I think I read a >short story where someone went through a strange experiment >and came out with an R- based system, and no one knew it. >He was slowly starving to death because his system couldn't >use anything he ate. Or am I barking up the wrong tree >here? In case no one else knows, I can confirm this idea. Although I wonder if some-one indeed can be "infected" by this disease, the molecules of a certain hand are indeed often not interchangable in chemical reactions. So if the L-bacteria find R-molecules they can't use it (eg. for extracting energy). But I think others who know a bit more about biochemistry will know much more about this. Timothy P.S. Something went wrong while sending this message, so you may have received it twice, sorry. From popserver Sat Jan 27 18:02:11 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5415" "Sat" "27" "January" "1996" "09:29:01" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "102" "Re: For Consideration" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id HAA07277 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 07:27:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Sat, 27 Jan 96 09:29:02 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199601262313.AA07338@student.utwente.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: Timothy van der Linden cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: For Consideration Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 09:29:01 -0600 (CST) Tim says in response to Brian: > > As long as the fuel is prelaunced there is no problem, but you were > suggesting to use the fuel as shielding. If you planned using that fuel for > deceleration, it could not work because there isn't an engine that can stop > it. only true for internally powered engines, an externally powered MARS design, would be able to carry enough reaction Mass (I hope) to overcome both the photonic thrust, and slow the ship at 1 G (10 m/s^2) Now Brian says > > >Of course, using Kevin Houston's maser idea would be divine and with it we > >could accelerate/declerate the whole way. But I just don't see how he is > >going to keep a maser beam on a starship that is 11.8 ly away. Or is it > >11.9 or even 12.2 ly. I can't find a single pair of sources that agree on > >how far away Tau Ceti is! there is in existence today, a laser interferometer gyroscope, that by all accounts is accurate to within one wavelength of light. assuming you are using something at 580 nanometers, this translates into only 680 Kilometers divergence after 12.0 lightyears. If the maser antenna is wider by that radius, (ie, if the maser beam is 1000 Km in radius, the antenna should be 1680 km in radius) or, if the maser beam is wider than the antenna (just switch the above numbers,) then either the beam will allway rest upon the antenna (in the first case), or the antenna wil allways be within the beam (in the second case) However, Since you missed much of the discussion between the newsletter dying (how that listserver coming Dave?) and the time you joined, I will re-iterate the main monkey-wrench in the system. Before I do so, let me re-state the main Idea. By accelerating the Reaction Mass (RM) to near light speed, we could increase it's momentum endlessly (by approaching the speed of light ever closer) thus allowing less RM to escape out the back of the ship. by using the maser antenna as a "sail", and retro-reflecting most of the energy, we could accelerate away from earth at a nice 1 G (and since the exhaust speed would be C (photons) the RM would be zero. at the turn-around point, instead of reflecting the maser beam, we would convert it to electricity, and accelerate RM in the direction of TC. But there wont be enough energy to overcome the momentum imparted by the photons absorbed, to raise the exhaust speed up to .9996 C. Thus our mass costs will go up. instead of accelerating a small amount of RM to Near-light speed, we will have to accelerate a larger amount to some lower speed (perhaps .75 or .8 C) I would love to tell everyone that I had solved this little mystery, but alas, I have been very busy with school-work. To Dave, Re handedness. While you are correct, in that proteins and sugars come in left and right handed forms, the choice is not completely arbitrary. We use Left-handed Proteins, and right-handed Sugars, (from now on, it's RH and LH) but anything that uses carbon and oxygen will use some kind of sugar. and unfortunately, RH sugar is the most thermodynamically stable. Thus if the Alien bugs use Sugar at all, they will have figured out how to handle RH glucose. as for proteins, This does appear to be an arbitrary choice made by life early in it's developement. It may be that protiens _must_ be LH if Sugars are RH, or it may be something different, However, even if the bugs couldn't digest our proteins, we would not like them eating our glucose and reproduceing ad infinitum. because if they can't eat us, it's a sure bet that our immune system would be completely stymied. on anti-biotics, Kelly is right. all my Bio-Chem Books show that Anti-biotics attacks certain specific Key reactions that all life must use. For example, Sulfa drugs attack the Flavin pathway. Thus unless the bugs are supplied with the component, they cannot survive (unless they have a mutant enzyme which can distinguish between the proper flavin precursor and the sulfa drug. This is what I meant by the evolutionary age of the life being important. We carry many genes within us that are deactivated. Some of them are very old, from the days when we were fish. (fetuses have gills at one point) the same is true of bacteria, they have genes that code for long surpassed chemical weapons. Like this: Bacteria A developes weapon. Bacteria B developes defense to that weapon Bacteria C-Z die for not having the defense, Bacteria B thrives and al future bacteria have the defense gene Bacteria A stops making the weapon, because it is no longer effective. The weapons get better and better, and the more of them your ancestors were exposed to, the better your chance of fending off an attack by an alien bug. A good SF book on this is "The War against the Chtorr" by David Gerald it's a book, not about an invasion, but about an infestation. and the aliens are trying to Chtorraform our planet to suit themselves. but their evolution is much older than ours, so all thier bugs learned how to master penicillin millenia ago (and any other anti-biotic we could come up with) plus all the Chtoran life-forms have chemical weapons and defenses that earth life had never seen before. the long and the short of it is. we are losing. and the human race has to figure out how to survive in a world that is changing around us. anyway, gotta go now. Later Kevin Houston From popserver Sat Jan 27 19:38:06 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1095" "Fri" "26" "January" "1996" "20:05:38" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "20" "Re: Alien bacteria and biosphere II" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: stevev@tzadkiel.efn.org Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (stevev@tzadkiel.efn.org [198.68.17.19]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id JAA15430; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 09:54:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA14991; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 20:05:38 -0800 Message-Id: <199601270405.UAA14991@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <3108EC14.A18@interworld.com> References: <960125231328_304328005@mail06.mail.aol.com> <3108EC14.A18@interworld.com> From: Steve VanDevender To: David@interworld.com (David Levine) Cc: KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Alien bacteria and biosphere II Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 20:05:38 -0800 David Levine writes: > It's not my strong point, but didn't I read somewhere > once that while a lot of the proteins, etc. we live on, > while they can be either L- or R- versions (left handed > or right handed), are all mainly L-? I think I read a > short story where someone went through a strange experiment > and came out with an R- based system, and no one knew it. > He was slowly starving to death because his system couldn't > use anything he ate. Or am I barking up the wrong tree > here? This is actually the case. Certain chemical compounds can have two isomers, that have the same formula and the same structure when reflected across a plane of symmetry. Nearly all isomeric compounds used in biology on Earth are L-isomers. Isomers are chemically equivalent when reacting with corresponding isomers of the same handedness, but usually L-isomers and R-isomers are not interchangeable and an isomer of the wrong handedness is not metabolized. On the other hand, getting someone reflected in such a way that all their L-isomers become R-isomers is highly unlikely :-). From popserver Sat Jan 27 22:18:12 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2502" "Sat" "27" "January" "1996" "23:12:06" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "48" "Re: For Consideration" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id OAA01819 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 14:10:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA02840 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 27 Jan 1996 23:11:53 +0100 Message-Id: <199601272211.AA02840@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: For Consideration Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 23:12:06 +0100 To Kevin: >> As long as the fuel is prelaunced there is no problem, but you were >> suggesting to use the fuel as shielding. If you planned using that fuel for >> deceleration, it could not work because there isn't an engine that can stop >> it. > >only true for internally powered engines, an externally powered MARS >design, would be able to carry enough reaction Mass (I hope) to overcome >both the photonic thrust, and slow the ship at 1 G (10 m/s^2) Yes, I forgot that possibility. >By accelerating the Reaction Mass (RM) to near light speed, we could >increase it's momentum endlessly (by approaching the speed of light ever >closer) thus allowing less RM to escape out the back of the ship. by >using the maser antenna as a "sail", and retro-reflecting most of the >energy, we could accelerate away from earth at a nice 1 G (and since the >exhaust speed would be C (photons) the RM would be zero. at the >turn-around point, instead of reflecting the maser beam, we would convert >it to electricity, and accelerate RM in the direction of TC. But there >wont be enough energy to overcome the momentum imparted by the photons >absorbed, to raise the exhaust speed up to .9996 C. Thus our mass costs >will go up. instead of accelerating a small amount of RM to Near-light >speed, we will have to accelerate a larger amount to some lower speed >(perhaps .75 or .8 C) I would love to tell everyone that I had solved >this little mystery, but alas, I have been very busy with school-work. Yes, it will work, I calculated it. To say it in words you should accept the fact that mass have a better momentum/energy ratio than photons. So this means if you have an amount of energy and want to get the most momentum out of it, then you should accelerate mass and not shine photons. (Of course this means that you have that mass, which as we all know is not favourable in a starship) >on anti-biotics, Kelly is right. all my Bio-Chem Books show that >Anti-biotics attacks certain specific Key reactions that all life must >use. For example, Sulfa drugs attack the Flavin pathway. Thus unless >the bugs are supplied with the component, they cannot survive (unless >they have a mutant enzyme which can distinguish between the proper flavin >precursor and the sulfa drug. This is what I meant by the evolutionary >age of the life being important. So does this mean that we can kill alien-life with anti-biotics as long as their development is not far beyond ours? Timothy From popserver Sun Jan 28 04:46:56 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3035" "Sat" "27" "January" "1996" "21:14:48" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "71" "Re: Recycling" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id SAA15979 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 18:14:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA07619; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 21:14:48 -0500 Message-ID: <960127211447_305635422@mail04.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Recycling Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 21:14:48 -0500 re T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) > To Kelly: > > >No doubt our current homes and lifestyle will > >seem equally squalid and unacceptable to our desendants. So they will work > >longer to live better. > > It depends on what the gain would be. How fast will technology grow in the > futere, will the exponential growth of the last 2 centuries slow down? Current indications are that it will accelerate. Given that we are assuming a large space infastructure to build the ship, that would give us all access to VAST raw material resouces and wealth. > >Probably not as long as we do now, and they'ld demand > >better jobs and treatment; but they would still work. I have great faith in > >human greed and desire for a better life for themselves, their families, and > >others they like. > > Again, it depends on the gain. These days, many people decide to live from > social finances and not to work and earn more money. Truem but the welfare is so generous (if you don't mind sucking up to a burecrate dweeb) that the people on welfare (generally lower inteligence and education) would be hard pressed to find a better paying job. > >> By the way, do you think that human AI can be rivalled by "computers" > >within > >> say 300 years? (Just to get some idea of your ideas) > > > >Pretty much what I was pitch in DataNet War. We can now build computers with > >complexity approching the human brain (computers with E 12 bytes of ram have > >been built, I don't think the human brains much more than that.) > > I remember that the human brain has E20 neurons. But it is not especially > the memory but the the connection between them, all have to be parallel. The latest issue of ANALOG science fact/science fiction has an artical on current and future computer and nano-tech systems. We alread have built computers with more processing power, data flow, and memory capacity then the human brain. (As long as the total data flow rate is as great with a non-paralell system, it will work. Now if we could just tell it what to do!) In 20-30 years a 1 human equivelent system should cost what a good home computer costs now. Should help A.I. research quite a bit. ;) > >> Yes, that is what I meant when I wrote that a lot of time is spend on R&D, > >> if you would maintain what you have, the computers would become cheaper and > >> cheaper because only the maintenance and rebuild cost would have to be > >> paid. > >> These days a lot of money is paid for the development. Of course this > >> doesn't take in account the time that can be spared after the new products > >> can be used. > >> So if we go on developing like today's society, one day the amount of > >> spare(d) time will be more than the time used for R&D :) > > > >Computers are becoming cheaper and cheaper by a factor of 100 each decade. > > Old computers are another factor 100 cheaper. No they arn't, even used 10 year old computers arn't that much cheaper. The newer tech is cheaper to build, and faster. Kelly From popserver Sun Jan 28 04:46:58 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["9215" "Sat" "27" "January" "1996" "21:15:05" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "213" "Re: Newsletter of MINILIT" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.12]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id SAA16015 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 18:15:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA02621; Sat, 27 Jan 1996 21:15:05 -0500 Message-ID: <960127211503_305635619@emout04.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Newsletter of MINILIT Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 21:15:05 -0500 re T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) > Tim replies to Kelly: > > >> >Raw materials will be in space. MOst of the best ore beds on earth are > >> >crashed asteroids. We can go to the source! > >> > >> Yes, that's what I meant, so that means a saving of say 80% with respect to > >> the raw materials. Thus we have 5% spent on R&D and 15% spent on other > >> man-power. > > > >80% 5% and 15% of what? > > Of the total budget spend by companies. You said only 5% was used for R&D, I > say about 80% is used by getting the raw materials. Here on Earth those raw > materials are difficult to obtain, in space it may be much easier (just > scoop the surface) and thus less manpower is needed. Most industries don't spend 80% on raw material (probably more like 10% - 30%) the bulk is in labor costs. So automation will have a big effect. > >I was speaking of professions in the sence of jobs. Yes you could do without > >a lot of coordinators in a smaller group. But you'll need someone good at > >all the little jobs a society takes to keep it runing (not to mention a > >starship). > > Like a hairdresser, shoemaker, tailor, dentist, doctor, cook? Are these the > jobs you mean? > I wonder if we can come up with more than 100 or 1000 completely different > jobs that are needed in a starship. Well it takes 10,000 to operate an aircraft carrer, and far more than that to maintain it. Add in other professions to maintain the entire civilization needed to support them, and you get millions. > >Depends on the type of bacteria. Yes a type of bacteria (or maybe an alge?) > >was found living inside some of the old reactor cores. (I think the new > >sealed U.S. reactors are to clean to feed them.) They have also found things > >on the ocean bottom that thrive in water heated to hundreds of defrees C and > >loaded with heavy metals, or in a few cases that were happily eating old > >toxic waste dumps. > > On the bottom of the sea, I can imagine, but in a high radiative field is > hard to believe, the DNA would be mutated beyond repair within seconds. Can > you recall the source? Several sources. Its an old story of some interest. Last I remember for sure was Science. They were studing the cell repair mecanisms that allow the bacteria they were studying to repair their genetic and tissua damage that fast. (No not in secounds!) They were fairly sure it developed to allow the bacteria to repair themselves fast enough to survive high temperatures, and woundered if it could be transfered to humans. I think they said the cell repair rates were high enough to allow the bacteria to survive thousands of times the human fatal radiation dosage. (Effectivly the radiation couldn't kill them untill it physically cooked them!) > >> >Venuses temp is NOT due to its atmosphere. Its due to its crust, its a > >> >fraction of the thickness of earth crust and doesn't insulate well enough > >> >to keep the surface cool. > >> > >> So after the venus cools down slowly, the crust will get thicker and it may > >> become like Earth? > > > >If the sun doesn't swallow it first. Its been cooling for 4.5 billion years, > >so I think its a bit to slow to make it in time. > > I've been reading some data about Venus, and am quite certain that the > biggest part of its temperature not caused by the bad insulating crust. The latest NASA reports say differently. The Magelin probe showed the thinner crust during its radar scans. > There are is a lot of dust and posionous gasses, which create a very dense > atmosphere (90 bar). This dense atmosphere full of greenhouse gasses (much > worse than CO2) and the higher radiation level are the main reasons for the > higher surface temperature. Given the debacle about greenhouse effect predictions on earth I'm cynical about predictions on alien worlds. Also its generally agreed that if earth was where Venus is, it would not become dramatically hotter. (Well not as dramatic as Venus. You could still live here. But you'll want to move north a bit. ;) ) > >Well its not just that. When you have to throw away 90% of the ore you mine > >to get the remaining good 'refined' part, you generate a lot of waste. Mines > >tend to be more than a little messy too. Fusion wouldn't intrinsicly change > >any of that, or much about industry in general. Of course if you move > >everything off planet you've obviously removed all the sources of Earth based > >polution. > > Yeah, that would be nice, wouldn't it... Unless you sell or to the developed world like the third world does. Expect them to scream as their economies fold. > >I don't follow. 10 tomatos a year? Why would frozen/irradiated/cryoed food > >need to be feed? I was just saying I was expecting to feed the crew a normal > >diet, of normal food, just like they would get from a grocery store. > > (Withthe exception of very light concentrated emergency rations.) I was > >expecting to do no/none/zero farming on board the ship. I did mention the > >crew could grow a few plants in their rooms if they wanted, but all planing > >assumes no extra solar food production. > > My misunderstanding, but can food be kept for 20 years? Sure. We kept some cold war rations around for that long without refrigeration. With high tech, you can keep normal foods almost indefinatly. (Give or take a few problematic fruits like apples.) > >??? You need to study life more. There are other chemical combinations then > >ours that can suport life. Some are radically differnt. Some could not > >survive the presence of oxegen (as most early earth life couldn't). We don't > >know they are used, but they could be. > > Why have these organisms never evolved beyond a single cell? > And if they did as you suggest, why did they change to use oxigen? Algae poluted the atmosphere with so much oxegen everything was killed off. To survive the remaining life forms had to adapt to oxegen or avoid oxegen rich areas (its hard to evolve multi celular when you in those little enclaves.). Even now our cell nucleus is destroyed by oxegen contamination. But we do the best we can. ;) In a world without photosyntisis the non-oxegen forms could still dominate. ---- > >As for your quick anatomy breakdown. We have hands and are the preeminent > >endurence pack preditors on the planet. Our closest runners up are Wolves. > > We may be partly preditors, but the larger part of our food were vegetables. That depends on where we live. A lot of aborigional tribe are still largely pure carnavore. But your right we are omnivors, and eat veges as a large part of our diet. So do wolves and bears, but I never heard anyone debate they were preditors. > (In these days of Kingsized burgers that may be hard to believe) > Indeed wolves eat also some plants much less than we do. So as far as I'm > concerned apes which also eat some small amounts of meat are a lot closer to us. Chips do prey on other animals (even other chimps in some cases), but they are not evolved as endurance pack preditors. Only we and Wolves specialize in that niche. > > We have some notable anotomical differences for two preditors that > >specialize in the same eco-nich! ;) Our bodies are however, both designed > >to support the same pack endurance preditor lifestyle. (We are adapted for > >hotter climates though.) > > I'm not sure anymore what you mean by predator, don't forget our > intelligence has brought us far above any other species. So if we hadn't our > big brain we would be very poor preditors. We were preditors before we had brains. Our ability to track game, and run for extreamly long distences without tiring, are our bigest adaptation for hunting. Thou naturally we wouldn't be nearly as good at it without our inteligence. > >As for the rest. A set of crab claws could work as well as hands. Elephants > >trunks can pick up indevidual penuts out of lose debreis, or lift a log. > > Although crab claws and elephant truncks are able to pick up things and > perform some simple tasks, they don't come near the amount of possibilities > that 2 five fingered hands have. ---- Chavanist! ;) > ---- Imagine you have a hand with a thumb and a > single finger, that would mean a serious handycap all things you could > normally do, would not be able or very hard, even many years after you had > become customed to it. (And we don't have a solid finger like crabs do) But what if you had 6 claw/hands like crabs doi? In general our hands are very good for what we use them for, but their are many alternatives with stregths and weakness over ours. Ours is not the only design that would work, or even the best of all possible hands (we've tested robots with better). > So while an organism gets some usefull "hands" it also gets a smarter brain > to use that "hand". Once the brain gets bigger it may be usefull for other > purposes too, like better perception, better remembering, better learning. Most of our enlarged brain isn't devoted to our hands. Dolphins brains are even larger (proportionally) than ours. (Thou they are not evolved for inteligence.) We are not the only model the universe could use. Kelly From popserver Sun Jan 28 20:32:22 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2936" "Sun" "28" "January" "1996" "16:16:19" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "53" "Re: Recycling" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id HAA17646 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 07:14:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA06718 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 28 Jan 1996 16:16:06 +0100 Message-Id: <199601281516.AA06718@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Recycling Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 16:16:19 +0100 Reply to Kelly: >Current indications are that it will accelerate. Given that we are assuming >a large space infastructure to build the ship, that would give us all access >to VAST raw material resouces and wealth. Growth is not necessary acceleration, besides that the gain for the public is not always that much. Since the arrival of the televisions, they haven't changed significantly: 30 years ago there was color tv and now they still is. It's a bit more rectangular and has a little bit more quality but those are no real gains. Medical care has grown about as fast as technology but now that we have removed a lot of diseases, it is not growing that fast. Maybe there will come a new acceleration after the genome project, but after a while that will slow down too. All in all, it will become harder and harder to find new bases to accelerate from and after a while (few centuries) most will not accelerate anymore. >> Again, it depends on the gain. These days, many people decide to live from >> social finances and not to work and earn more money. > >True but the welfare is so generous (if you don't mind sucking up to a >burecrate dweeb) that the people on welfare (generally lower inteligence and >education) would be hard pressed to find a better paying job. What happens if the jobs available are to difficult for less intelligent people. After a while machines and AI will take over a lot of work. And if AI really become smarter than we are, then all the work we do would be superfluous. >> I remember that the human brain has E20 neurons. But it is not especially >> the memory but the the connection between them, all have to be parallel. > >The latest issue of ANALOG science fact/science fiction has an artical on >current and future computer and nano-tech systems. We alread have built >computers with more processing power, data flow, and memory capacity then the >human brain. (As long as the total data flow rate is as great with a >non-paralell system, it will work. Now if we could just tell it what to do!) > In 20-30 years a 1 human equivelent system should cost what a good home >computer costs now. Should help A.I. research quite a bit. ;) I find it hard to believe, the GRAY C916 computer has a memory of 16Gb and a computing speed of 16 GFLOPSs. Its I/O bandwith is 13.6 Gb/sec. (It uses a maximum of 3.5E5 Watt, not something you want in your house) The amount of bytes is many orders smaller than the amount of neurons of a human brain (assuming a neuron has about 256 states). As you can see, the GRAY can recall all it's memory in about 1 sec, but than it doesn't do any calculations, which are necessary to make any sense in a neural-network. Further more a few years ago the biggest neural network was 1E5 neurons and they had a hard time of getting them to work together. A fly has a brain of 1E12 neurons (hope I'm right) so it's a long (but not impossible) way to human AI. Timothy From popserver Sun Jan 28 20:32:25 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["9331" "Sun" "28" "January" "1996" "16:16:25" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "187" "Hands and brains" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id HAA17650 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 07:14:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA06726 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 28 Jan 1996 16:16:13 +0100 Message-Id: <199601281516.AA06726@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Hands and brains Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 16:16:25 +0100 ReplyTo: Kelly >> Of the total budget spend by companies. You said only 5% was used for R&D, I >> say about 80% is used by getting the raw materials. Here on Earth those raw >> materials are difficult to obtain, in space it may be much easier (just >> scoop the surface) and thus less manpower is needed. > >Most industries don't spend 80% on raw material (probably more like 10% - >30%) the bulk is in labor costs. So automation will have a big effect. OK, I'm wrong. But I don't understand how you can say that automation will decrease the cost dramatically, since you are saying that automats need a lot of maintenance and take a lot of efford to build. >> Like a hairdresser, shoemaker, tailor, dentist, doctor, cook? Are these the >> jobs you mean? >> I wonder if we can come up with more than 100 or 1000 completely different >> jobs that are needed in a starship. > >Well it takes 10,000 to operate an aircraft carrer, and far more than that to >maintain it. Add in other professions to maintain the entire civilization >needed to support them, and you get millions. Are there 10,000 people on one single "boat"? There are only 100-200 people needed to operate a submarine and they are able to live more than 1 year isolated from the outside world. >> On the bottom of the sea, I can imagine, but in a high radiative field is >> hard to believe, the DNA would be mutated beyond repair within seconds. Can >> you recall the source? > >Several sources. Its an old story of some interest. Last I remember for >sure was Science. They were studing the cell repair mecanisms that allow the >bacteria they were studying to repair their genetic and tissua damage that >fast. (No not in secounds!) They were fairly sure it developed to allow the >bacteria to repair themselves fast enough to survive high temperatures, and >woundered if it could be transfered to humans. I think they said the cell >repair rates were high enough to allow the bacteria to survive thousands of >times the human fatal radiation dosage. (Effectivly the radiation couldn't >kill them untill it physically cooked them!) 100 Times, I can believe, even cockroaches can survive that (Of course they have a better armour than bacteria). Now I only wonder how radiation levels can be that low in reactors. I guess these bacteria had found a well shielded place behind some bolds. >The latest NASA reports say differently. The Magelin probe showed the >thinner crust during its radar scans. It may be thin, I wasn't arguing that (It's no wonder if the surface temperature is 450 degree Celcius, the cooling down of the core is much slower). All I said was that most of the higher temperature was due to the greenhous effect. >> There are is a lot of dust and posionous gasses, which create a very dense >> atmosphere (90 bar). This dense atmosphere full of greenhouse gasses (much >> worse than CO2) and the higher radiation level are the main reasons for the >> higher surface temperature. > >Given the debacle about greenhouse effect predictions on earth I'm cynical >about predictions on alien worlds. Forget the predictions, it is proven than several gasses like CO2 and SO2 have very well insulating properties. So the fact that these gasses are present in abundance on Venus means that a greenhouse-effect is responsable for the high temperature. >Also its generally agreed that if earth >was where Venus is, it would not become dramatically hotter. (Well not as >dramatic as Venus. You could still live here. But you'll want to move north >a bit. ;) ) Yes, but that is because Earth has a biosphere. If Earth had to do without that and it would be moved to the place of Venus, then is would heat up and once the greenhouse-effect took over there wouldn't be a way back. >Unless you sell or to the developed world like the third world does. Expect >them to scream as their economies fold. Maybe it's time for them to get their own economies... >> My misunderstanding, but can food be kept for 20 years? > >Sure. We kept some cold war rations around for that long without >refrigeration. With high tech, you can keep normal foods almost indefinatly. > (Give or take a few problematic fruits like apples.) OK, indefinatly, so a humble 60 years would be possible for a single way mission :) >> Why have these organisms never evolved beyond a single cell? >> And if they did as you suggest, why did they change to use oxigen? > >Algae poluted the atmosphere with so much oxegen everything was killed off. > To survive the remaining life forms had to adapt to oxegen or avoid oxegen >rich areas (its hard to evolve multi celular when you in those little >enclaves.). Even now our cell nucleus is destroyed by oxegen contamination. > But we do the best we can. ;) Oh, I thought you were referring to those bacteria living near sea-vulcanos. An organism (like algae) that gets all its energy from direct sunlight is not likely to evolve to a multicellular moving organism, because it takes to much energy to move. So besides the reason that organisms had to use oxygen because otherwise there was no place to stay. >In a world without photosyntisis the non-oxegen forms could still dominate. How? If they used chemicals for their energy, then the supply of those chemicals better be almost infinite. Most of the chemicals that organisms use these days are recycled by using photosyntesis. Only a small fraction of chemicals is freed by vulcanos, hardly enough to sustain a group of lifeforms. >We were preditors before we had brains. Our ability to track game, and run >for extreamly long distences without tiring, are our bigest adaptation for >hunting. Thou naturally we wouldn't be nearly as good at it without our >inteligence. No, we were apes before we had big brains, and apes are no preditors. (I never said that intelligent live could not come from wolves, but if it would they need to change their claws first) >> ---- Imagine you have a hand with a thumb and a >> single finger, that would mean a serious handycap all things you could >> normally do, would not be able or very hard, even many years after you had >> become customed to it. (And we don't have a solid finger like crabs do) > >But what if you had 6 claw/hands like crabs doi? In general our hands are >very good for what we use them for, but their are many alternatives with >stregths and weakness over ours. Ours is not the only design that would >work, or even the best of all possible hands (we've tested robots with >better). Crabs have 8 legs and 2 claws (or scissors) the legs are made for walking (and that's just what they do ;) ). A larger brain needs a larger body, larger bodies need larger legs. Having more than 4 legs will mean a disadvantage because of the extra weight. Even if they had more legs they probably couldn't miss more than 2 of them to permanently free them for hands. Also it would be unlikely that animals that stand on 4 legs would have only a stump to stand on. Having a few small extremeties at each leg gives much more stability. So while there are creatures with more than 4 legs, they aren't likely to support a big brain. That leaves only 2 legs to support the hands. If these 2 hands want to do anything constructive, they better have more than 2 fingers. I also wonder if creatures with gills (using oxigen in the water) could have a large brain. In the water you would need very large gills to get enough oxigen for that brain. Only very large underwater animals could have a big brain, but what would the advantage be for them? They already are at the top of the food-chain. >> So while an organism gets some usefull "hands" it also gets a smarter brain >> to use that "hand". Once the brain gets bigger it may be usefull for other >> purposes too, like better perception, better remembering, better learning. > >Most of our enlarged brain isn't devoted to our hands. Dolphins brains are >even larger (proportionally) than ours. (Thou they are not evolved for >inteligence.) We are not the only model the universe could use. Indeed, most of our brain isn't devoted to anything as far as we know. I meant that a large part is devoted to what you can do with your hands. Suppose you have a large brain, but no hands/legs to make use of it. There would not be any advantage then to have a bigger brain, so it would not evolve. (By the way I couldn't find the meaning of "chavanist", are you sure you spelled it right? (I've an idea of the meaning though)) About Dolphins, they are a species that went back to the sea after living on land, they are also air-breathing. So that may explain some of the size of the brain. You said proportionally, but for intelligence only the absolute size is impotant. Besides that, dolphins are almost the same size we are. So if they have big brains, they have to use them somehow otherwise it would be a bad evolutionary design which is unlikely. I really wonder what a "fish" could do when it was intelligent. It only could use its beak to construct something. Since Dolphins don't seem more intelligent than the average dog, I've some doubts about the real size of their brain, but I haven't any numbers at my diposal to check it. (The latter really is a problem to me, the ideas are clear but the numbers to back it up are often hard to find.) Timothy From popserver Sun Jan 28 20:33:49 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1008" "Sun" "28" "January" "1996" "11:00:37" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "21" "Re: For Consideration" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id IAA22222 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 08:59:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Sun, 28 Jan 96 11:00:37 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199601272211.AA02840@student.utwente.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: Timothy van der Linden cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: For Consideration Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 11:00:37 -0600 (CST) > >on anti-biotics, Kelly is right. all my Bio-Chem Books show that > >Anti-biotics attacks certain specific Key reactions that all life must > >use. For example, Sulfa drugs attack the Flavin pathway. Thus unless > >the bugs are supplied with the component, they cannot survive (unless > >they have a mutant enzyme which can distinguish between the proper flavin > >precursor and the sulfa drug. This is what I meant by the evolutionary > >age of the life being important. > > So does this mean that we can kill alien-life with anti-biotics as long as > their development is not far beyond ours? > Yes, Provided they are LH protein, RH sugar, carbon/oxygen based life forms with DNA utilizing similar Biochem pathways. :) in fact, I would say that _any_ carbon based life could be killed with the proper chemicals (and leave us unharmed,) the Question is how long would it take for us to find the proper chemicals? Kevin (to whom 1E18 Watts of maser energy sounds really good right now) From popserver Sun Jan 28 20:33:57 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3907" "Sun" "28" "January" "1996" "12:05:10" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "81" "Re: Hands and brains" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id KAA25789 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 10:03:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Sun, 28 Jan 96 12:05:11 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199601281516.AA06726@student.utwente.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: Timothy van der Linden cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Hands and brains Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 12:05:10 -0600 (CST) On Sun, 28 Jan 1996, Timothy van der Linden wrote: > ReplyTo: Kelly > >Well it takes 10,000 to operate an aircraft carrer, and far more than that to > >maintain it. Add in other professions to maintain the entire civilization > >needed to support them, and you get millions. How many of those are actually maintaining the boat, and how many are training to use the weapons that boat is carrying. you keep bringing up the military model Kelly, Are you assuming we are going to have to fight someone/thing. I'll say again, the military is a bad example, many of the people are engaged in specialized activity which has nothing to do with the maintainance of the boat. Another large part of the crew is engaged in activity to repair any damage that the enemy will inflict on them. both groups would not be needed in a star-ship (given the fact that we have written off weapon systems as unescessary, our only defense upon meeting a hostile ship would be to surrender or self-destruct) > > >> My misunderstanding, but can food be kept for 20 years? > > > >Sure. We kept some cold war rations around for that long without > >refrigeration. With high tech, you can keep normal foods almost indefinatly. > > (Give or take a few problematic fruits like apples.) > > OK, indefinatly, so a humble 60 years would be possible for a single way > mission :) Even if we can keep such foods, my carrots example shows that it's cheaper in both mass and space to grow many foods rather than carry them . >> >In a world without photosyntisis the non-oxegen forms could still dominate. you could have photosynthesis, without having oxygen. in our system, plants break down water into hydrogen and oxygen, the hydrogen is tacked onto a CO2 subunit, and then built up into carbo-hydrates. It is no large stretch of the imagination to envision a system where the [Plants] break down H2S and release S2 into the atmosphere tacking the hydrogen onto a CO2 etc etc > (By the way I couldn't find the meaning of "chavanist", are you sure you > spelled it right? (I've an idea of the meaning though)) Kevin speaks: chauvinist -- one who has a prefrence for a particular group of which he is a member. applied to gender, to would mean a man who thought that it is better to be a man than a woman, not really one who thinks that men are better than women, just one who thinks it is better to be a man. It is a milder form of racism. > > About Dolphins, they are a species that went back to the sea after living on > land, they are also air-breathing. So that may explain some of the size of > the brain. > You said proportionally, but for intelligence only the absolute size is > impotant. Besides that, dolphins are almost the same size we are. So if they > have big brains, they have to use them somehow otherwise it would be a bad > evolutionary design which is unlikely. I really wonder what a "fish" could there is some evidence that dolphins devote a large portion of their brains to sonar image processing. and perhaps even language. as to absolute size, that is not true. even the lowly prairie dog has a rudimentary language. It is sophisticated enough to convey the following warnings 1) human approaching 2) dog approaching 3) yellow human approaching (man wearing a yellow coat) 4) black dog approaching from the north In short, the prairie dogs gave different vocalizations when a dog, or a human approached the nest, and gave different vocalizations when the same man wearing different colored jacket walked through. they also gave some indication what the direction of approach was. When a man walked in from the North, the voalizations were recorded, and played back several days later. every member of the prairie dog nest looked, not at the speakers, but to the north. and when Hawk warnings are recorded and played back, they all look to the sky Kevin From popserver Sun Jan 28 20:34:00 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["861" "Sun" "28" "January" "1996" "10:07:57" "-0800" "Ric Rddesign Denisse Hedman" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" nil "17" "Re: Hands and brains" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: rddesign@wolfenet.com Received: from wolfe.net (mail1.wolfe.net [204.157.98.11]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id KAA25919 for ; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 10:06:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from rddesign.wolfenet.com (sea-ts2-p20.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.138]) by wolfe.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id KAA16494; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 10:07:57 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199601281807.KAA16494@wolfe.net> X-Sender: rddesign@wolfenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric & Denisse Hedman) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Subject: Re: Hands and brains Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 10:07:57 -0800 (PST) >>Well it takes 10,000 to operate an aircraft carrer, and far more than that to >>maintain it. Add in other professions to maintain the entire civilization >>needed to support them, and you get millions. > >Are there 10,000 people on one single "boat"? >There are only 100-200 people needed to operate a submarine and they are >able to live more than 1 year isolated from the outside world. The average Aircraft Carrier today has a crew of around 5000. I'm not sure of the number but about 1/2 are there to take care of the planes and fly them. 1/2 of the other 1/2 are there to maintain the systems to launch and retrieve the planes. The rest run the ship. During Viet Nam some carrier had up to 8000 crew. Most of the crewing of Naval ships is to take care of battle losses. Only 1/3 of a crew could sail and fight the ship for a limited amount of time. > From popserver Mon Jan 29 19:05:27 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1334" "Mon" "29" "January" "1996" "09:49:34" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "27" "Re: Hands and brains" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: David@interworld.com Received: from www.interworld.com (interworld.com [165.254.130.4]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id GAA22816 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 06:49:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from hal ([165.254.130.90]) by www.interworld.com (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 0-11464) with SMTP id AAA245; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:53:40 -0500 Message-ID: <310CDE7E.17AA@interworld.com> Organization: InterWorld, Really Cool Stuff Division X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0b5 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David@interworld.com (David Levine) To: Kevin C Houston CC: Timothy van der Linden , KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Hands and brains Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:49:34 -0500 > > > > About Dolphins, they are a species that went back to the sea after living on > > land, they are also air-breathing. So that may explain some of the size of > > the brain. > > You said proportionally, but for intelligence only the absolute size is > > impotant. Besides that, dolphins are almost the same size we are. So if they > > have big brains, they have to use them somehow otherwise it would be a bad > > evolutionary design which is unlikely. I really wonder what a "fish" could I would disagree that only absolute size is important. I'm not positive, but I'm assuming elephant brains are quite larger than human brains. While social and intelligent animals, they're certainly not more intelligent than human beings. Perhaps the absolute size of a certain section of the brain? Like the cerebellum? I don't know enough about elephant anatomy to say whether or not one part of an elephant brain is larger than another part. Actually, my instinct tells me that there is some sort of minimum constant k=c*s, where s is size and c is connectivity (i.e. number of neural connections per brain cell)... so that creatures with smaller brains could still be intelligent if they had a higher density of connections. Well, actually, another possibility is that there is simply a minimum number of connections... -David From popserver Tue Jan 30 05:42:04 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["19282" "Mon" "29" "January" "1996" "23:54:16" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "450" "Re: Hands and brains" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com (mail06.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.108]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id UAA26794 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 20:54:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA06422; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 23:54:16 -0500 Message-ID: <960129235413_409873963@mail06.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Hands and brains Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 23:54:16 -0500 Re: David@interworld.com (David Levine) > > > > > > About Dolphins, they are a species that went back to the sea after living on > > > land, they are also air-breathing. So that may explain some of the size of > > > the brain. > > > You said proportionally, but for intelligence only the absolute size is > > > impotant. Besides that, dolphins are almost the same size we are. So if they > > > have big brains, they have to use them somehow otherwise it would be a bad > > > evolutionary design which is unlikely. I really wonder what a "fish" could > > > I would disagree that only absolute size is important. I'm > not positive, but I'm assuming elephant brains are quite > larger than human brains. While social and intelligent > animals, they're certainly not more intelligent than human > beings. Perhaps the absolute size of a certain section > of the brain? Like the cerebellum? I don't know enough > about elephant anatomy to say whether or not one part of > an elephant brain is larger than another part. Actually, > my instinct tells me that there is some sort of minimum > constant k=c*s, where s is size and c is connectivity (i.e. > number of neural connections per brain cell)... so that > creatures with smaller brains could still be intelligent if > they had a higher density of connections. Well, > actually, another possibility is that there is simply a minimum > number of connections... Yeah, Its assumed that you need a minimum size to have enough cells, for enough interconnections, to get a complex enough brain; But you also need a big enough brain to body ration so the brain has enough excess power to spare on complexity. Dolphin Brains are bigger in size and ratio than human brains. But human brains use a larger fraction (10%) on intelegence. Dolphins sonar cortex is as large as the human visual cortex (30% of human brain), so even though the intelegence centers are far smaller, the total brain is larger. > Re: rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric & Denisse Hedman) > > >>Well it takes 10,000 to operate an aircraft carrer, and far more than that to > >>maintain it. Add in other professions to maintain the entire civilization > >>needed to support them, and you get millions. > > > >Are there 10,000 people on one single "boat"? > >There are only 100-200 people needed to operate a submarine and they are > >able to live more than 1 year isolated from the outside world. > > The average Aircraft Carrier today has a crew of around 5000. I'm not sure > of the number but about 1/2 are there to take care of the planes and fly > them. 1/2 of the other 1/2 are there to maintain the systems to launch and > retrieve the planes. The rest run the ship. During Viet Nam some carrier had > up to 8000 crew. Opps. I knew Carrier crews were half for the ship, and half for the flight wing. But I couldn't remember if it was 5000 total, or by section. After I sent the E-mail I started to wounder about 10,000 > Re: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Kevin C Houston) > > On Sun, 28 Jan 1996, Timothy van der Linden wrote: > > > ReplyTo: Kelly > > >Well it takes 10,000 to operate an aircraft carrer, and far more than that to > > >maintain it. Add in other professions to maintain the entire civilization > > >needed to support them, and you get millions. > > How many of those are actually maintaining the boat, and how many are > training to use the weapons that boat is carrying. ---- No, they generally train crews before they send them out. Fewer ships sink that way. ;) > -----you keep bringing up > the military model Kelly, Are you assuming we are going to have to fight > someone/thing. I'll say again, the military is a bad example, many of > the people are engaged in specialized activity which has nothing to do > with the maintainance of the boat. Another large part of the crew is > engaged in activity to repair any damage that the enemy will inflict on > them. both groups would not be needed in a star-ship (given the fact > that we have written off weapon systems as unescessary, our only defense > upon meeting a hostile ship would be to surrender or self-destruct) I still think the military systems are the best example we have. Certianly the starship will be acting like an aircraft carrier. (Yes a large fraction of the starships crew will be engaged in specialize jobs not related to maintaining the ship. Otherwise why send them?) Also only the military operates large numbers of specialized people, in extreamly isolated, hostile/toxic areas, and gets them out again alive. Also they have done a goodly fraction of the exploration of this planet. I'm not saying we need the ship organized along military ranks, but our equipment will probably be much more like military gear, than anything else. Heavy, tough, built to operate in extreamly bad areas with little civilized infastructure to support them. Some of the equipment may very well be derived from military equipment. (Who else will have decades of bio-warfare experence in their systems designs?) Oh, the starship woun't be armed (though with the power of its engines and interstellar laser com, that might be a debatable point!), the landers and rovers would be armed and armored. I was talking about making sure the equipment could handel an attack by a pack of Tyronasaurus Rex's, and no one seemed to object. > > > >> My misunderstanding, but can food be kept for 20 years? > > > > > >Sure. We kept some cold war rations around for that long without > > >refrigeration. With high tech, you can keep normal foods almost indefinatly. > > > (Give or take a few problematic fruits like apples.) > > > > OK, indefinatly, so a humble 60 years would be possible for a single way > > mission :) > > Even if we can keep such foods, my carrots example shows that it's > cheaper in both mass and space to grow many foods rather than carry them . I did a detailed breakdown of groceries per 20 years vs a selfsustaining farm and found the break even point was 20-30 years (depending). I CAN'T FIND IT!! Its probably in the LIT Newsletters, so if Dave finishes the search engine I can find it that way. Or I might figure out where I put it on my hard drive. Anyway I'll forward that when I can find it. > >> >In a world without photosyntisis the non-oxegen forms could still dominate. > > you could have photosynthesis, without having oxygen. in our system, > plants break down water into hydrogen and oxygen, the hydrogen is tacked > onto a CO2 subunit, and then built up into carbo-hydrates. It is no > large stretch of the imagination to envision a system where the [Plants] > break down H2S and release S2 into the atmosphere tacking the hydrogen > onto a CO2 etc etc Interesting. I hadn't thought of that. I had though of fully chemosynthesis based ecologies like we have here in the deep ocean. But never a different type of photosynthesis. > > (By the way I couldn't find the meaning of "chavanist", are you sure you > > spelled it right? (I've an idea of the meaning though)) Sorry, I keep forgeting you don't always now informal english. > > About Dolphins, they are a species that went back to the sea after living on > > land, they are also air-breathing. ---- snip > > ----- even the lowly prairie dog has a > rudimentary language. It is sophisticated enough to convey the following > warnings ---- > In short, the prairie dogs gave different vocalizations when a dog, or a > human approached the nest, and gave different vocalizations when the same > man wearing different colored jacket walked through. they also gave some > indication what the direction of approach was. When a man walked in from > the North, the voalizations were recorded, and played back several days > later. every member of the prairie dog nest looked, not at the speakers, > but to the north. and when Hawk warnings are recorded and played back, > they all look to the sky Woah?! Neat. I knew a lot of animals and insects had language (certainly my dog demonstrates that effectivly) but I never heard of the prarie dog tests. > > RE: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) > > > ReplyTo: Kelly > > >> Of the total budget spend by companies. You said only 5% was used for R&D, I > >> say about 80% is used by getting the raw materials. Here on Earth those raw > >> materials are difficult to obtain, in space it may be much easier (just > >> scoop the surface) and thus less manpower is needed. > > > >Most industries don't spend 80% on raw material (probably more like 10% - > >30%) the bulk is in labor costs. So automation will have a big effect. > > OK, I'm wrong. But I don't understand how you can say that automation > will decrease the cost dramatically, since you are saying that > automats need a lot of maintenance and take a lot of efford to build. So do people. Automation allows a few skilled people to do the work of a larger number of people without automation. It does not allow the automation system to work by itself without people. As long as their are people to fix and operate it, automate systems will work well and productivly. Which is why all large manufacturing industries use them. > >> Like a hairdresser, shoemaker, tailor, dentist, doctor, cook? Are these the > >> jobs you mean? > >> I wonder if we can come up with more than 100 or 1000 completely different > >> jobs that are needed in a starship. > > > >Well it takes 10,000 to operate an aircraft carrer, and far more than that to > >maintain it. Add in other professions to maintain the entire civilization > >needed to support them, and you get millions. > > Are there 10,000 people on one single "boat"? Ok, 5000. > There are only 100-200 people needed to operate a submarine and they are > able to live more than 1 year isolated from the outside world. Submarines are much simpler than carriers, and they seldom operate more than 3 months without coming into port. Actually I can't think of one ever going a year submurged? (RICK!! ??) > >> On the bottom of the sea, I can imagine, but in a high radiative field is > >> hard to believe, the DNA would be mutated beyond repair within seconds. Can > >> you recall the source? > > > >Several sources. Its an old story of some interest. Last I remember for > >sure was Science. They were studing the cell repair mecanisms that allow the > >bacteria they were studying to repair their genetic and tissua damage that > >fast. (No not in secounds!) They were fairly sure it developed to allow the > >bacteria to repair themselves fast enough to survive high temperatures, and > >woundered if it could be transfered to humans. I think they said the cell > >repair rates were high enough to allow the bacteria to survive thousands of > >times the human fatal radiation dosage. (Effectivly the radiation couldn't > >kill them untill it physically cooked them!) > > 100 Times, I can believe, even cockroaches can survive that (Of course they > have a better armour than bacteria). Now I only wonder how radiation levels > can be that low in reactors. I guess these bacteria had found a well > shielded place behind some bolds. No, the bacteria remained directly exposed to the radiation. The only shielding would be the cooling water batween them and the reactor core. > >The latest NASA reports say differently. The Magelin probe showed the > >thinner crust during its radar scans. > > It may be thin, I wasn't arguing that (It's no wonder if the surface > temperature is 450 degree Celcius, the cooling down of the core is much slower). > All I said was that most of the higher temperature was due to the greenhous > effect. Sorry, no the greenhouse effect is considered a dabatable effect at all, even on earth. > >> There are is a lot of dust and posionous gasses, which create a very dense > >> atmosphere (90 bar). This dense atmosphere full of greenhouse gasses (much > >> worse than CO2) and the higher radiation level are the main reasons for the > >> higher surface temperature. > > > >Given the debacle about greenhouse effect predictions on earth I'm cynical > >about predictions on alien worlds. > > Forget the predictions, it is proven than several gasses like CO2 and SO2 > have very well insulating properties. So the fact that these gasses are > present in abundance on Venus means that a greenhouse-effect is > responsable for the high temperature. No it doesn't, it just meen their are insulating gases in the air. It doesn't even tell you if they are keeping heat in, or out. > >Also its generally agreed that if earth > >was where Venus is, it would not become dramatically hotter. (Well not as > >dramatic as Venus. You could still live here. But you'll want to move north > >a bit. ;) ) > > Yes, but that is because Earth has a biosphere. If Earth had to do without > that and it would be moved to the place of Venus, then is would heat up and > once the greenhouse-effect took over there wouldn't be a way back. No, earth biosphere trims its temperature a bit, but not by hundreds of degrees! If that were true Earth would have been unable to ever evolve life. > >Unless you sell or to the developed world like the third world does. Expect > >them to scream as their economies fold. > > Maybe it's time for them to get their own economies... True, but screeming and blaming others is so much easier. > >> My misunderstanding, but can food be kept for 20 years? > > > >Sure. We kept some cold war rations around for that long without > >refrigeration. With high tech, you can keep normal foods almost indefinatly. > > (Give or take a few problematic fruits like apples.) > > OK, indefinatly, so a humble 60 years would be possible for a single way > mission :) Well, you wouldn't starve anyway. > >> Why have these organisms never evolved beyond a single cell? > >> And if they did as you suggest, why did they change to use oxigen? > > > >Algae poluted the atmosphere with so much oxegen everything was killed off. > > To survive the remaining life forms had to adapt to oxegen or avoid oxegen > >rich areas (its hard to evolve multi celular when you in those little > >enclaves.). Even now our cell nucleus is destroyed by oxegen contamination. > > But we do the best we can. ;) > > Oh, I thought you were referring to those bacteria living near sea-vulcanos. Some are there, or in stagnent pools (like parts of SanFransico bay) that have little or no oxegen. But no large ecologies can develop in such isolation. > >In a world without photosyntisis the non-oxegen forms could still dominate. > > How? If they used chemicals for their energy, then the supply of those > chemicals better be almost infinite. Most of the chemicals that organisms > use these days are recycled by using photosyntesis. Only a small fraction of > chemicals is freed by vulcanos, hardly enough to sustain a group of lifeforms. Depends on the planets and its chemistry. > >We were preditors before we had brains. Our ability to track game, and run > >for extreamly long distences without tiring, are our bigest adaptation for > >hunting. Thou naturally we wouldn't be nearly as good at it without our > >inteligence. > > No, we were apes before we had big brains, and apes are not preditors. We evolved from chimps, which are predators. (Unlike Gorillas.) Those chimps evolved (after some odd twists) into plains preditors and scavengers. We developed that (and primative tool making), before our brains expanded much. > (I never said that intelligent live could not come from wolves, but if it > would they need to change their claws first) They could develop intelegence. A need for that just mean you have complex problem between you and a steed meal. Wolve greatest problem toward developing intelegence is that they are to good at what they do. Racoons or Otters would be a better bet. They depend more on cleverness, and use hands and some (unfashioned) tools. > >> ---- Imagine you have a hand with a thumb and a > >> single finger, that would mean a serious handycap all things you could > >> normally do, would not be able or very hard, even many years after you had > >> become customed to it. (And we don't have a solid finger like crabs do) > > > >But what if you had 6 claw/hands like crabs doi? In general our hands are > >very good for what we use them for, but their are many alternatives with > >stregths and weakness over ours. Ours is not the only design that would > >work, or even the best of all possible hands (we've tested robots with > >better). > > Crabs have 8 legs and 2 claws (or scissors) the legs are made for walking > (and that's just what they do ;) ). They have about 6 - 8 claws, but the inner ones are very small and specialized for tearing down food for the mouth. > A larger brain needs a larger body, larger bodies need larger legs. Having > more than 4 legs will mean a disadvantage because of the extra weight. > Even if they had more legs they probably couldn't miss more than 2 of them > to permanently free them for hands. > > Also it would be unlikely that animals that stand on 4 legs would have only > a stump to stand on. Having a few small extremeties at each leg gives much > more stability. > > So while there are creatures with more than 4 legs, they aren't likely to > support a big brain. > That leaves only 2 legs to support the hands. If these 2 hands want to do > anything constructive, they better have more than 2 fingers. ???!! You have some strange and unsupported assumptions there. MOst of earths walking life forms have more than 4 legs. Almost all of the rest have 4. Given that humans are fairly small as animals go, I can't see any justification in assuming large 4 or six limbed creatures are impossible. Hell we have predatores in north america that are almost a ton! > I also wonder if creatures with gills (using oxigen in the water) could have > a large brain. In the water you would need very large gills to get enough > oxigen for that brain. Only very large underwater animals could have a big > brain, but what would the advantage be for them? They already are at the top > of the food-chain. Gills in water actually need les body mass than lungs in air. > >> So while an organism gets some usefull "hands" it also gets a smarter brain > >> to use that "hand". Once the brain gets bigger it may be usefull for other > >> purposes too, like better perception, better remembering, better learning. > > > >Most of our enlarged brain isn't devoted to our hands. Dolphins brains are > >even larger (proportionally) than ours. (Thou they are not evolved for > >inteligence.) We are not the only model the universe could use. > > Indeed, most of our brain isn't devoted to anything as far as we know. -- Actually we do know what all the centers of the brain do, just not how they do it. > --- I > meant that a large part is devoted to what you can do with your hands. > Suppose you have a large brain, but no hands/legs to make use of it. There > would not be any advantage then to have a bigger brain, so it would not evolve. The biggest section of the human brain evolved to use the eyes, not hands. Niether are used in itelegence, that evolved separatly. Kelly From popserver Tue Jan 30 05:42:12 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["19282" "Tue" "30" "January" "1996" "00:12:27" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "450" "Re: Hands and brains" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.12]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id VAA27826 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 21:12:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA22296; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 00:12:27 -0500 Message-ID: <960130001226_209768422@emout04.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Hands and brains Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 00:12:27 -0500 Re: David@interworld.com (David Levine) > > > > > > About Dolphins, they are a species that went back to the sea after living on > > > land, they are also air-breathing. So that may explain some of the size of > > > the brain. > > > You said proportionally, but for intelligence only the absolute size is > > > impotant. Besides that, dolphins are almost the same size we are. So if they > > > have big brains, they have to use them somehow otherwise it would be a bad > > > evolutionary design which is unlikely. I really wonder what a "fish" could > > > I would disagree that only absolute size is important. I'm > not positive, but I'm assuming elephant brains are quite > larger than human brains. While social and intelligent > animals, they're certainly not more intelligent than human > beings. Perhaps the absolute size of a certain section > of the brain? Like the cerebellum? I don't know enough > about elephant anatomy to say whether or not one part of > an elephant brain is larger than another part. Actually, > my instinct tells me that there is some sort of minimum > constant k=c*s, where s is size and c is connectivity (i.e. > number of neural connections per brain cell)... so that > creatures with smaller brains could still be intelligent if > they had a higher density of connections. Well, > actually, another possibility is that there is simply a minimum > number of connections... Yeah, Its assumed that you need a minimum size to have enough cells, for enough interconnections, to get a complex enough brain; But you also need a big enough brain to body ration so the brain has enough excess power to spare on complexity. Dolphin Brains are bigger in size and ratio than human brains. But human brains use a larger fraction (10%) on intelegence. Dolphins sonar cortex is as large as the human visual cortex (30% of human brain), so even though the intelegence centers are far smaller, the total brain is larger. > Re: rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric & Denisse Hedman) > > >>Well it takes 10,000 to operate an aircraft carrer, and far more than that to > >>maintain it. Add in other professions to maintain the entire civilization > >>needed to support them, and you get millions. > > > >Are there 10,000 people on one single "boat"? > >There are only 100-200 people needed to operate a submarine and they are > >able to live more than 1 year isolated from the outside world. > > The average Aircraft Carrier today has a crew of around 5000. I'm not sure > of the number but about 1/2 are there to take care of the planes and fly > them. 1/2 of the other 1/2 are there to maintain the systems to launch and > retrieve the planes. The rest run the ship. During Viet Nam some carrier had > up to 8000 crew. Opps. I knew Carrier crews were half for the ship, and half for the flight wing. But I couldn't remember if it was 5000 total, or by section. After I sent the E-mail I started to wounder about 10,000 > Re: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Kevin C Houston) > > On Sun, 28 Jan 1996, Timothy van der Linden wrote: > > > ReplyTo: Kelly > > >Well it takes 10,000 to operate an aircraft carrer, and far more than that to > > >maintain it. Add in other professions to maintain the entire civilization > > >needed to support them, and you get millions. > > How many of those are actually maintaining the boat, and how many are > training to use the weapons that boat is carrying. ---- No, they generally train crews before they send them out. Fewer ships sink that way. ;) > -----you keep bringing up > the military model Kelly, Are you assuming we are going to have to fight > someone/thing. I'll say again, the military is a bad example, many of > the people are engaged in specialized activity which has nothing to do > with the maintainance of the boat. Another large part of the crew is > engaged in activity to repair any damage that the enemy will inflict on > them. both groups would not be needed in a star-ship (given the fact > that we have written off weapon systems as unescessary, our only defense > upon meeting a hostile ship would be to surrender or self-destruct) I still think the military systems are the best example we have. Certianly the starship will be acting like an aircraft carrier. (Yes a large fraction of the starships crew will be engaged in specialize jobs not related to maintaining the ship. Otherwise why send them?) Also only the military operates large numbers of specialized people, in extreamly isolated, hostile/toxic areas, and gets them out again alive. Also they have done a goodly fraction of the exploration of this planet. I'm not saying we need the ship organized along military ranks, but our equipment will probably be much more like military gear, than anything else. Heavy, tough, built to operate in extreamly bad areas with little civilized infastructure to support them. Some of the equipment may very well be derived from military equipment. (Who else will have decades of bio-warfare experence in their systems designs?) Oh, the starship woun't be armed (though with the power of its engines and interstellar laser com, that might be a debatable point!), the landers and rovers would be armed and armored. I was talking about making sure the equipment could handel an attack by a pack of Tyronasaurus Rex's, and no one seemed to object. > > > >> My misunderstanding, but can food be kept for 20 years? > > > > > >Sure. We kept some cold war rations around for that long without > > >refrigeration. With high tech, you can keep normal foods almost indefinatly. > > > (Give or take a few problematic fruits like apples.) > > > > OK, indefinatly, so a humble 60 years would be possible for a single way > > mission :) > > Even if we can keep such foods, my carrots example shows that it's > cheaper in both mass and space to grow many foods rather than carry them . I did a detailed breakdown of groceries per 20 years vs a selfsustaining farm and found the break even point was 20-30 years (depending). I CAN'T FIND IT!! Its probably in the LIT Newsletters, so if Dave finishes the search engine I can find it that way. Or I might figure out where I put it on my hard drive. Anyway I'll forward that when I can find it. > >> >In a world without photosyntisis the non-oxegen forms could still dominate. > > you could have photosynthesis, without having oxygen. in our system, > plants break down water into hydrogen and oxygen, the hydrogen is tacked > onto a CO2 subunit, and then built up into carbo-hydrates. It is no > large stretch of the imagination to envision a system where the [Plants] > break down H2S and release S2 into the atmosphere tacking the hydrogen > onto a CO2 etc etc Interesting. I hadn't thought of that. I had though of fully chemosynthesis based ecologies like we have here in the deep ocean. But never a different type of photosynthesis. > > (By the way I couldn't find the meaning of "chavanist", are you sure you > > spelled it right? (I've an idea of the meaning though)) Sorry, I keep forgeting you don't always now informal english. > > About Dolphins, they are a species that went back to the sea after living on > > land, they are also air-breathing. ---- snip > > ----- even the lowly prairie dog has a > rudimentary language. It is sophisticated enough to convey the following > warnings ---- > In short, the prairie dogs gave different vocalizations when a dog, or a > human approached the nest, and gave different vocalizations when the same > man wearing different colored jacket walked through. they also gave some > indication what the direction of approach was. When a man walked in from > the North, the voalizations were recorded, and played back several days > later. every member of the prairie dog nest looked, not at the speakers, > but to the north. and when Hawk warnings are recorded and played back, > they all look to the sky Woah?! Neat. I knew a lot of animals and insects had language (certainly my dog demonstrates that effectivly) but I never heard of the prarie dog tests. > > RE: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) > > > ReplyTo: Kelly > > >> Of the total budget spend by companies. You said only 5% was used for R&D, I > >> say about 80% is used by getting the raw materials. Here on Earth those raw > >> materials are difficult to obtain, in space it may be much easier (just > >> scoop the surface) and thus less manpower is needed. > > > >Most industries don't spend 80% on raw material (probably more like 10% - > >30%) the bulk is in labor costs. So automation will have a big effect. > > OK, I'm wrong. But I don't understand how you can say that automation > will decrease the cost dramatically, since you are saying that > automats need a lot of maintenance and take a lot of efford to build. So do people. Automation allows a few skilled people to do the work of a larger number of people without automation. It does not allow the automation system to work by itself without people. As long as their are people to fix and operate it, automate systems will work well and productivly. Which is why all large manufacturing industries use them. > >> Like a hairdresser, shoemaker, tailor, dentist, doctor, cook? Are these the > >> jobs you mean? > >> I wonder if we can come up with more than 100 or 1000 completely different > >> jobs that are needed in a starship. > > > >Well it takes 10,000 to operate an aircraft carrer, and far more than that to > >maintain it. Add in other professions to maintain the entire civilization > >needed to support them, and you get millions. > > Are there 10,000 people on one single "boat"? Ok, 5000. > There are only 100-200 people needed to operate a submarine and they are > able to live more than 1 year isolated from the outside world. Submarines are much simpler than carriers, and they seldom operate more than 3 months without coming into port. Actually I can't think of one ever going a year submurged? (RICK!! ??) > >> On the bottom of the sea, I can imagine, but in a high radiative field is > >> hard to believe, the DNA would be mutated beyond repair within seconds. Can > >> you recall the source? > > > >Several sources. Its an old story of some interest. Last I remember for > >sure was Science. They were studing the cell repair mecanisms that allow the > >bacteria they were studying to repair their genetic and tissua damage that > >fast. (No not in secounds!) They were fairly sure it developed to allow the > >bacteria to repair themselves fast enough to survive high temperatures, and > >woundered if it could be transfered to humans. I think they said the cell > >repair rates were high enough to allow the bacteria to survive thousands of > >times the human fatal radiation dosage. (Effectivly the radiation couldn't > >kill them untill it physically cooked them!) > > 100 Times, I can believe, even cockroaches can survive that (Of course they > have a better armour than bacteria). Now I only wonder how radiation levels > can be that low in reactors. I guess these bacteria had found a well > shielded place behind some bolds. No, the bacteria remained directly exposed to the radiation. The only shielding would be the cooling water batween them and the reactor core. > >The latest NASA reports say differently. The Magelin probe showed the > >thinner crust during its radar scans. > > It may be thin, I wasn't arguing that (It's no wonder if the surface > temperature is 450 degree Celcius, the cooling down of the core is much slower). > All I said was that most of the higher temperature was due to the greenhous > effect. Sorry, no the greenhouse effect is considered a dabatable effect at all, even on earth. > >> There are is a lot of dust and posionous gasses, which create a very dense > >> atmosphere (90 bar). This dense atmosphere full of greenhouse gasses (much > >> worse than CO2) and the higher radiation level are the main reasons for the > >> higher surface temperature. > > > >Given the debacle about greenhouse effect predictions on earth I'm cynical > >about predictions on alien worlds. > > Forget the predictions, it is proven than several gasses like CO2 and SO2 > have very well insulating properties. So the fact that these gasses are > present in abundance on Venus means that a greenhouse-effect is > responsable for the high temperature. No it doesn't, it just meen their are insulating gases in the air. It doesn't even tell you if they are keeping heat in, or out. > >Also its generally agreed that if earth > >was where Venus is, it would not become dramatically hotter. (Well not as > >dramatic as Venus. You could still live here. But you'll want to move north > >a bit. ;) ) > > Yes, but that is because Earth has a biosphere. If Earth had to do without > that and it would be moved to the place of Venus, then is would heat up and > once the greenhouse-effect took over there wouldn't be a way back. No, earth biosphere trims its temperature a bit, but not by hundreds of degrees! If that were true Earth would have been unable to ever evolve life. > >Unless you sell or to the developed world like the third world does. Expect > >them to scream as their economies fold. > > Maybe it's time for them to get their own economies... True, but screeming and blaming others is so much easier. > >> My misunderstanding, but can food be kept for 20 years? > > > >Sure. We kept some cold war rations around for that long without > >refrigeration. With high tech, you can keep normal foods almost indefinatly. > > (Give or take a few problematic fruits like apples.) > > OK, indefinatly, so a humble 60 years would be possible for a single way > mission :) Well, you wouldn't starve anyway. > >> Why have these organisms never evolved beyond a single cell? > >> And if they did as you suggest, why did they change to use oxigen? > > > >Algae poluted the atmosphere with so much oxegen everything was killed off. > > To survive the remaining life forms had to adapt to oxegen or avoid oxegen > >rich areas (its hard to evolve multi celular when you in those little > >enclaves.). Even now our cell nucleus is destroyed by oxegen contamination. > > But we do the best we can. ;) > > Oh, I thought you were referring to those bacteria living near sea-vulcanos. Some are there, or in stagnent pools (like parts of SanFransico bay) that have little or no oxegen. But no large ecologies can develop in such isolation. > >In a world without photosyntisis the non-oxegen forms could still dominate. > > How? If they used chemicals for their energy, then the supply of those > chemicals better be almost infinite. Most of the chemicals that organisms > use these days are recycled by using photosyntesis. Only a small fraction of > chemicals is freed by vulcanos, hardly enough to sustain a group of lifeforms. Depends on the planets and its chemistry. > >We were preditors before we had brains. Our ability to track game, and run > >for extreamly long distences without tiring, are our bigest adaptation for > >hunting. Thou naturally we wouldn't be nearly as good at it without our > >inteligence. > > No, we were apes before we had big brains, and apes are not preditors. We evolved from chimps, which are predators. (Unlike Gorillas.) Those chimps evolved (after some odd twists) into plains preditors and scavengers. We developed that (and primative tool making), before our brains expanded much. > (I never said that intelligent live could not come from wolves, but if it > would they need to change their claws first) They could develop intelegence. A need for that just mean you have complex problem between you and a steed meal. Wolve greatest problem toward developing intelegence is that they are to good at what they do. Racoons or Otters would be a better bet. They depend more on cleverness, and use hands and some (unfashioned) tools. > >> ---- Imagine you have a hand with a thumb and a > >> single finger, that would mean a serious handycap all things you could > >> normally do, would not be able or very hard, even many years after you had > >> become customed to it. (And we don't have a solid finger like crabs do) > > > >But what if you had 6 claw/hands like crabs doi? In general our hands are > >very good for what we use them for, but their are many alternatives with > >stregths and weakness over ours. Ours is not the only design that would > >work, or even the best of all possible hands (we've tested robots with > >better). > > Crabs have 8 legs and 2 claws (or scissors) the legs are made for walking > (and that's just what they do ;) ). They have about 6 - 8 claws, but the inner ones are very small and specialized for tearing down food for the mouth. > A larger brain needs a larger body, larger bodies need larger legs. Having > more than 4 legs will mean a disadvantage because of the extra weight. > Even if they had more legs they probably couldn't miss more than 2 of them > to permanently free them for hands. > > Also it would be unlikely that animals that stand on 4 legs would have only > a stump to stand on. Having a few small extremeties at each leg gives much > more stability. > > So while there are creatures with more than 4 legs, they aren't likely to > support a big brain. > That leaves only 2 legs to support the hands. If these 2 hands want to do > anything constructive, they better have more than 2 fingers. ???!! You have some strange and unsupported assumptions there. MOst of earths walking life forms have more than 4 legs. Almost all of the rest have 4. Given that humans are fairly small as animals go, I can't see any justification in assuming large 4 or six limbed creatures are impossible. Hell we have predatores in north america that are almost a ton! > I also wonder if creatures with gills (using oxigen in the water) could have > a large brain. In the water you would need very large gills to get enough > oxigen for that brain. Only very large underwater animals could have a big > brain, but what would the advantage be for them? They already are at the top > of the food-chain. Gills in water actually need les body mass than lungs in air. > >> So while an organism gets some usefull "hands" it also gets a smarter brain > >> to use that "hand". Once the brain gets bigger it may be usefull for other > >> purposes too, like better perception, better remembering, better learning. > > > >Most of our enlarged brain isn't devoted to our hands. Dolphins brains are > >even larger (proportionally) than ours. (Thou they are not evolved for > >inteligence.) We are not the only model the universe could use. > > Indeed, most of our brain isn't devoted to anything as far as we know. -- Actually we do know what all the centers of the brain do, just not how they do it. > --- I > meant that a large part is devoted to what you can do with your hands. > Suppose you have a large brain, but no hands/legs to make use of it. There > would not be any advantage then to have a bigger brain, so it would not evolve. The biggest section of the human brain evolved to use the eyes, not hands. Niether are used in itelegence, that evolved separatly. Kelly From popserver Tue Jan 30 05:42:19 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5210" "Tue" "30" "January" "1996" "00:12:42" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "110" "Re: Recycling/AI and super human computers" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.12]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id VAA27864 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 21:13:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA22441; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 00:12:42 -0500 Message-ID: <960130001241_209768586@emout04.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Recycling/AI and super human computers Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 00:12:42 -0500 RE: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) > > Reply to Kelly: > > >Current indications are that it will accelerate. Given that we are assuming > >a large space infastructure to build the ship, that would give us all access > >to VAST raw material resouces and wealth. > > Growth is not necessary acceleration, besides that the gain for the public > is not always that much. Since the arrival of the televisions, they haven't > changed significantly: 30 years ago there was color tv and now they still > is. It's a bit more rectangular and has a little bit more quality but those > are no real gains. Medical care has grown about as fast as technology but > now that we have removed a lot of diseases, it is not growing that fast. > Maybe there will come a new acceleration after the genome project, but after > a while that will slow down too. > All in all, it will become harder and harder to find new bases to accelerate > from and after a while (few centuries) most will not accelerate anymore. ???!! TV's have changed dramatically in the last thirty years. Not the picture format, which is fixed by law, but the image clarity and relyability is far better. That of course ignores the fact that current TV's are about to be phased out for digital HDTV's (at least in the states). Medical gains are also accelerating, not declining. Infectious deseases unfortunatly are also ready for a comback. Virtually all major feilds from industrial architecture, computers, industrial manufacture, chemistry, aviation, farming, have all seen dramatic improvements. Theses improvements don't always do something obvious, but they are there. > >> Again, it depends on the gain. These days, many people decide to live from > >> social finances and not to work and earn more money. > > > >True but the welfare is so generous (if you don't mind sucking up to a > >burecrate dweeb) that the people on welfare (generally lower inteligence and > >education) would be hard pressed to find a better paying job. > > What happens if the jobs available are to difficult for less > intelligent people. After a while machines and AI will take > over a lot of work. And if AI really become smarter than we > are, then all the work we do would be superfluous. If the less intelegent can't find any job left at their skill level (or atleast not enough for all), they will eiather have to improve their abilities, or expect to be droped out of society. Sooner or later people get feed up with others living off them for no good reason. As for us and super intelegent AI's. Eiather we'll find something to do together (or co-evolve), or they will move on and ignore us. (We can hardly expect them to take care of us forever.) > >> I remember that the human brain has E20 neurons. But it is not especially > >> the memory but the the connection between them, all have to be parallel. > > > >The latest issue of ANALOG science fact/science fiction has an artical on > >current and future computer and nano-tech systems. We alread have built > >computers with more processing power, data flow, and memory capacity then the > >human brain. (As long as the total data flow rate is as great with a > >non-paralell system, it will work. Now if we could just tell it what to do!) > > In 20-30 years a 1 human equivelent system should cost what a good home > >computer costs now. Should help A.I. research quite a bit. ;) > > I find it hard to believe, the GRAY C916 computer has a memory of 16Gb and a > computing speed of 16 GFLOPSs. Its I/O bandwith is 13.6 Gb/sec. > (It uses a maximum of 3.5E5 Watt, not something you want in your house) > The amount of bytes is many orders smaller than the amount of neurons of a > human brain (assuming a neuron has about 256 states). As you can see, the > GRAY can recall all it's memory in about 1 sec, but than it doesn't do any > calculations, which are necessary to make any sense in a neural-network. > > Further more a few years ago the biggest neural network was 1E5 neurons and > they had a hard time of getting them to work together. A fly has a brain of > 1E12 neurons (hope I'm right) so it's a long (but not impossible) way to > human AI. > > Timothy Its Cray not Gray. Best current bet is that the human brain has E10 Neurons and can process the equivelent of E14 bits per second. Rough guess at computing power 1 teraflop (one trillion floating point calculations per secound). The biggest computer I know of personally is a 4-5 tera byte (E12 byte system) being constructed in my old neighborhood in Reston Virgina for the phone companies cable TV experement. The Cray corporation is building a 9 teraflop system for the US government DARPA research agency (completion scheduled for 1998), and their competitor (thinking machines) is offering a 2 teraflop system comercially for $100 million. So we already are building systems bigger and more powerfull than the human brain, we just don't really know how to make them think. True intelegence may require custom circutry. But that circutry could be built in a way similar to the current circuts. If of course it does need couston circuts, which is hotly debated. Kelly From popserver Tue Jan 30 07:15:05 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3966" "Tue" "30" "January" "1996" "08:13:57" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "86" "Re: Hands and brains" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id XAA05891 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 1996 23:12:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA04067 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 30 Jan 1996 08:13:46 +0100 Message-Id: <199601300713.AA04067@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Hands and brains Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 08:13:57 +0100 To Kevin: >Even if we can keep such foods, my carrots example shows that it's >cheaper in both mass and space to grow many foods rather than carry them . Yes, I had not forgotten that :) >>In a world without photosyntisis the non-oxegen forms could still dominate. > >you could have photosynthesis, without having oxygen. in our system, >plants break down water into hydrogen and oxygen, the hydrogen is tacked >onto a CO2 subunit, and then built up into carbo-hydrates. It is no >large stretch of the imagination to envision a system where the [Plants] >break down H2S and release S2 into the atmosphere tacking the hydrogen >onto a CO2 etc etc Yes, I almost assumed directly that photosynthesis was used as we know it best. 6H20 + 6CO2 + energy --> C6H12O6 + 6O2 6H2S + 6CO2 + energy --> X + 6S2 where X=C6H12S6 ? To break down H20 takes much more energy than needed for H2S. 2.86/0.201=14.2 times more to be exact. But the other way around: Organisms using S2 get much less energy while using it as an oxidator. Also I'm not sure what X should be, C6H12S6 probably doesn't exist. Maybe all Sulphur is formed to S2 while leaving CnHn which could react to S2 but how well? So to be short S2 levels should be 14 times higher than oxigen levels or the organisms must have bigger "lungs". Finally, I'm not sure about the distribution of chemicals in planets, but often there is a lot of reacted oxigen present (SO2 CO2 H2SO4 etc.) When oxigen is present it will react to the S2 and that means again a loss of energy per Sulphur-atom. >Kevin speaks: >chauvinist -- one who has a prefrence for a particular group of which he >is a member. applied to gender, to would mean a man who thought that it >is better to be a man than a woman, not really one who thinks that men >are better than women, just one who thinks it is better to be a man. It >is a milder form of racism. I don't think that is what Kelly means, I figured it meant something like some one who likes to cut off fingers and limbs, but as said before I can't find a dictionary to confirm that. >> About Dolphins, they are a species that went back to the sea after living on >> land, they are also air-breathing. So that may explain some of the size of >> the brain. >> You said proportionally, but for intelligence only the absolute size is >> impotant. Besides that, dolphins are almost the same size we are. So if they >> have big brains, they have to use them somehow otherwise it would be a bad >> evolutionary design which is unlikely. I really wonder what a "fish" could > >there is some evidence that dolphins devote a large portion of their >brains to sonar image processing. and perhaps even language. as to >absolute size, that is not true. I'm not sure, what you mean regarding absolute size of the brain. To prove that the absolute size doesn't matter, you say that prairy dogs with a lot smaller brain than ours are less smart than we are. To me this seems like prove for the opposite: A certain absolute size is needed to become intelligent the way we know it. By the way, I saw a serie on the television where some other animals did exactly the same. I'm not sure how these animals were called, but they lived in hills and always stood on their back legs looking being on watch. Timothy ========================================================================== >in fact, I would say that _any_ carbon based life could be killed with >the proper chemicals (and leave us unharmed,) the Question is how long >would it take for us to find the proper chemicals? I also never doubted that, neither did Kelly, but we all don't know for sure what it takes to kill them. What a goal... we go to a planet and first thing we do is try to kill the live that's living there. >Kevin (to whom 1E18 Watts of maser energy sounds really good right now) What is it that are you engineering? 1E18 still sounds awfull to me. Tim P.S. Quantum physics is still coming... From popserver Wed Jan 31 04:29:54 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1648" "Tue" "30" "January" "1996" "17:02:59" "-0800" "Ric Rddesign Denisse Hedman" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" nil "27" "Newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: rddesign@wolfenet.com Received: from wolfe.net (mail1.wolfe.net [204.157.98.11]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id RAA25167 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:01:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from rddesign.wolfenet.com (sea-ts1-p44.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.98]) by wolfe.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id RAA00847; Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:02:59 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199601310102.RAA00847@wolfe.net> X-Sender: rddesign@wolfenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric & Denisse Hedman) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Subject: Newsletter Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:02:59 -0800 (PST) >> There are only 100-200 people needed to operate a submarine and they are >> able to live more than 1 year isolated from the outside world. >Submarines are much simpler than carriers, and they seldom operate more than >3 months without coming into port. Actually I can't think of one ever going >a year submurged? (RICK!! ??) OK, guys. Here is what I know. The USS Triton, ( The only 2 reactor US submarine) Sailed around the world submerged. They did have to come to a "deck awash" situation what an ill crew member had to be airlifted off) So, 26,000 miles submerged. The boat I was on, (USS Flasher, SS(N)613) was operated on two month cruises although we carried food for 140 days. I understand todays boats do 3 month cruises. We suffered from "big eye" during our trips. This means that after a month or so we were slept out. Had read the majority of the books brought aboard and has seen all the GOOD movies we took with us. Knowing we were to enter port in 2 to 3 weeks made the crew antsy and wanting to see family members again. Cleaning up the for entering port took a fair amount of time also. Usually was deligation from ComSubPac would come aboard as soon as we docked so the Capt. and XO wanted the place pretty. I'm sure the present day crews go through the same processes. Even at 600' todays boats, most is missile compartment, still don't have enough privete spaces for much longer time periods. Crews are about 250, mine was 113 in a 292' hull. If the 300' of missile compartment was converted into rec areas, private rooms. movie theaters. you could possibly have a crew of 300 or so the could do a year underwater. Ric From popserver Wed Jan 31 09:25:31 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1382" "Wed" "31" "January" "1996" "10:23:17" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "37" "Re: Hands and brains" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id BAA27469 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 01:21:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA28539 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 31 Jan 1996 10:23:04 +0100 Message-Id: <199601310923.AA28539@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Hands and brains Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 10:23:17 +0100 To David: >I would disagree that only absolute size is important. I'm >not positive, but I'm assuming elephant brains are quite >larger than human brains. Yes, you are right, I always thought different, but today I did some research and found that indeed dolphin and elephant brains are bigger. >While social and intelligent >animals, they're certainly not more intelligent than human >beings. Perhaps the absolute size of a certain section >of the brain? Like the cerebellum? I think you mean cerebrum (the large brains). >I don't know enough >about elephant anatomy to say whether or not one part of >an elephant brain is larger than another part. I'm not sure either anymore, but think that indeed the absolute size of the different kinds of the brain is important. Like Kelly wrote, doplhins have a large part of their brain devoted to sonar and communication and probably less to the eyes. >Actually, >my instinct tells me that there is some sort of minimum >constant k=c*s, where s is size and c is connectivity (i.e. >number of neural connections per brain cell)... so that >creatures with smaller brains could still be intelligent if >they had a higher density of connections. Well, >actually, another possibility is that there is simply a minimum >number of connections... I think connectiveness depends on the function of a certain part of the brain. Timothy From popserver Wed Jan 31 09:25:33 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4321" "Wed" "31" "January" "1996" "10:23:35" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "86" "Re: Recycling/AI and super human computers" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id BAA27479 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 01:22:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA28562 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 31 Jan 1996 10:23:23 +0100 Message-Id: <199601310923.AA28562@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Recycling/AI and super human computers Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 10:23:35 +0100 Reply to Kelly: >???!! TV's have changed dramatically in the last thirty years. Not the >picture format, which is fixed by law, but the image clarity and relyability >is far better. That of course ignores the fact that current TV's are about >to be phased out for digital HDTV's (at least in the states). Yes, but untill HDTV (which is more or less the logical step to digital multi media and communication) these improvements are not so big that every living soul (overstatement) wants to buy a new television. In fact the step to HDTV has to push a lot of unwilling people buying new TV's (unless their old ones breaks down beyond repair.) Is the advantage of the Hifi audio and video (probably compressed with MPEG (which hopefully is better than what I see on my P5)) indeed that big that all people WANT to buy it? My guess is that only new purposes like interactive TV, pay-TV, internet by TV will tempt many people to buy such an apparatus. >Medical gains are also accelerating, not declining. Infectious deseases >unfortunatly are also ready for a comback. Yes, I read that that was because most the bacteria become resitant and because the pharmaceutic industry forgot that area but are now heading for a come back. >Virtually all major feilds from industrial architecture, computers, >industrial manufacture, chemistry, aviation, farming, have all seen dramatic >improvements. Theses improvements don't always do something obvious, but >they are there. But are these advancements accelerations or just steady growth? >> What happens if the jobs available are to difficult for less >> intelligent people. After a while machines and AI will take >> over a lot of work. And if AI really become smarter than we >> are, then all the work we do would be superfluous. > >If the less intelegent can't find any job left at their skill level (or >atleast not enough for all), they will eiather have to improve their >abilities, or expect to be droped out of society. Sooner or later people get >feed up with others living off them for no good reason. Rethinking it, I come to the conclusion that as soon as AI has an IQ of 80 it will only take a few years to reach 180. >As for us and super intelegent AI's. Eiather we'll find something to do >together (or co-evolve), or they will move on and ignore us. (We can hardly >expect them to take care of us forever.) Maybe we should make them just smart enough to do the dirty jobs. And use only a few with IQ 1000 to think. Now we just have to hope they don't interconnect without us noticing. Another possibility is to let them learn a while and then freeze the learning capability. That would be like you were stuck at a certain age, able to some specific job that needed little or no adjustment. >Best current bet is that the human brain has E10 Neurons and can process the >equivelent of E14 bits per second. Rough guess at computing power 1 teraflop >(one trillion floating point calculations per secound). Yes, I found a single reference (after looking through 20 books about AI) that confirmed your E10 (and not my E20) of information units (meaning neurons*connections?). >The biggest computer I know of personally is a 4-5 tera byte (E12 byte >system) being constructed in my old neighborhood in Reston Virgina for the >phone companies cable TV experement. The Cray corporation is building a 9 >teraflop system for the US government DARPA research agency (completion >scheduled for 1998), and their competitor (thinking machines) is offering a 2 >teraflop system comercially for $100 million. Yes, I found some info about another CRAY having max 1.2 TFLOPS. >So we already are building systems bigger and more powerfull than the human >brain, we just don't really know how to make them think. True intelegence >may require custom circutry. But that circutry could be built in a way >similar to the current circuts. If of course it does need couston circuts, >which is hotly debated. Custom circuis are is less efficient to do highly parallel computing than neural-circuits. So once the parallel computing is better controlled or once the neural-activity is better understood the whole circuits will become much more efficient. Of course non-chaotic system may always be more efficient on less parallel circuits. Timothy From popserver Wed Jan 31 09:25:35 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["10812" "Wed" "31" "January" "1996" "10:23:23" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "225" "Re: Hands and brains" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id BAA27485 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 01:22:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA28546 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 31 Jan 1996 10:23:10 +0100 Message-Id: <199601310923.AA28546@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Hands and brains Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 10:23:23 +0100 To Kelly: >Yeah, Its assumed that you need a minimum size to have enough cells, for >enough interconnections, to get a complex enough brain; But you also need a >big enough brain to body ration so the brain has enough excess power to spare >on complexity. But why do elephants have such big brains (3 to 4 times larger than humans)? >Dolphin Brains are bigger in size and ratio than human brains. But human >brains use a larger fraction (10%) on intelegence. Dolphins sonar cortex is >as large as the human visual cortex (30% of human brain), so even though the >intelegence centers are far smaller, the total brain is larger. >I did a detailed breakdown of groceries per 20 years vs a selfsustaining farm >and found the break even point was 20-30 years (depending). I CAN'T FIND >IT!! Its probably in the LIT Newsletters, so if Dave finishes the search >engine I can find it that way. Or I might figure out where I put it on my >hard drive. Anyway I'll forward that when I can find it. I've some 1.6 Meg of old newsletters (Older than miniLIT). If you know some keywords, I can search them for you. >Automation allows a few skilled people to do the work of a larger number of >people without automation. It does not allow the automation system to work >by itself without people. As long as their are people to fix and operate it, >automate systems will work well and productivly. Which is why all large >manufacturing industries use them. But that means that much less people can do the job >> There are only 100-200 people needed to operate a submarine and they are >> able to live more than 1 year isolated from the outside world. > >Submarines are much simpler than carriers, and they seldom operate more than >3 months without coming into port. Actually I can't think of one ever going >a year submurged? (RICK!! ??) As far as I know they only come to the surface to recalibrate the navigation systems. They even don't communicate with the home base so that their exact position isn't known (They do receive messages though, but don't answer) I've heard they sometimes don't harbour for more than a year, this of course depends on the size of the submarine. (The largest Russian sub even has a small swimming pool!) >> 100 Times, I can believe, even cockroaches can survive that (Of course they >> have a better armour than bacteria). Now I only wonder how radiation levels >> can be that low in reactors. I guess these bacteria had found a well >> shielded place behind some bolds. > >No, the bacteria remained directly exposed to the radiation. The only >shielding would be the cooling water batween them and the reactor core. But then they must be exposed to maybe 1 million times the deadly radiation, I really have to find that article... >> Forget the predictions, it is proven than several gasses like CO2 and SO2 >> have very well insulating properties. So the fact that these gasses are >> present in abundance on Venus means that a greenhouse-effect is >> responsable for the high temperature. > >No it doesn't, it just meen their are insulating gases in the air. It >doesn't even tell you if they are keeping heat in, or out. It's keeping the heat in: Greenhouse gasses are more opaque planetary radiation than for solar radiation. Solar radiation is what directly comes from the Sun and planetary radiation is what is reflected from the planet's surface. When solar radiation hits the surface of the planet, the main part is absorbed, after a while the soil heats up and start radiating but this is largely infra-red radiation while the incoming radiation had more shorter wavelengths. As for the debacle about Earth's greenhouse effect, there are only doubts about the quantity of the temperature increase caused by the greenhouse gasses. Also it is argued if the greenhouse gasses are the only reason for temperature increase. >> Yes, but that is because Earth has a biosphere. If Earth had to do without >> that and it would be moved to the place of Venus, then is would heat up and >> once the greenhouse-effect took over there wouldn't be a way back. > >No, earth biosphere trims its temperature a bit, but not by hundreds of >degrees! If that were true Earth would have been unable to ever evolve life. To that I agree, but as long the greenhouse effect is not too large the temperatures will not become so high that no live can exist. At the light-side of the moon you will freeze to death (assuming you weren't choking first) this is because there are no gasses to keep the heat in. The only heat there is radiative heat. >> OK, indefinatly, so a humble 60 years would be possible for a single way >> mission :) > >Well, you wouldn't starve anyway. The Dutch word "sterven" means to die. For "to starve" we use a completely different word: "verhongeren" ("go hungry" is what comes nearest) >> Oh, I thought you were referring to those bacteria living near >sea-vulcanos. > >Some are there, or in stagnent pools (like parts of SanFransico bay) that >have little or no oxegen. But no large ecologies can develop in such >isolation. Indeed, so the chances for much evolution are also limited. >>>In a world without photosyntisis the non-oxegen forms could still >>>dominate. >> >> How? If they used chemicals for their energy, then the supply of those >> chemicals better be almost infinite. Most of the chemicals that organisms >> use these days are recycled by using photosyntesis. Only a small fraction >>of chemicals is freed by vulcanos, hardly enough to sustain a group of >>lifeforms. > >Depends on the planets and its chemistry. I think that if chemicals are not recycled any amount is used up in a relative short period. (If water and carbondioxide where not recycled by plants, animal (non photosynthesis) live would very soon die away). >> No, we were apes before we had big brains, and apes are not preditors. > >We evolved from chimps, which are predators. (Unlike Gorillas.) Those >chimps evolved (after some odd twists) into plains preditors and scavengers. I've never heard that before, so I'm not certain. >We developed that (and primative tool making), before our brains expanded >much. I've seen a TV-series (again :) ) that tried to explain that the human brain expanded as soon as it began standing up. The reason for that was the temperature difference between 0.8 metre (on 4 legs) and 1.5 metres (on 2 legs) above the ground. In Africa where they assumed the first "humans" lived there first was a quite nice green landscape, but then relative sudden (10,000 years or so) a 1000 kilometre mountain ridge appeared in the middle of Africa, that had influence on the weather and at one side it became a rather dry prairie landscape with only a few bushes. The distance between those save bushes where rather large, so the apes living there has to move relative large distances (for apes which are not very good at walking). So after a while the started moving on 2 legs, which gave them more speed and thus more survival-chances because they had a larger area to feed from. Now it comes: Because the temperature at 1.5 meter was much lower (5 degrees or more, because of the wind etc.) than on 0.8 metre the brain could be cooled better and thus could now expand. So to be short: The apes had to walk on 2 legs to have better survival chances, then they got a cooler head and had the possibility to become a larger brain. One question remains however, why didn't they get a bigger brain while in the forest before the mountain ridge appeared? >They have about 6 - 8 claws, but the inner ones are very small and >specialized for tearing down food for the mouth. OK, but a crabs brain is just to small to become intelligent. >> A larger brain needs a larger body, larger bodies need larger legs. Having >> more than 4 legs will mean a disadvantage because of the extra weight. >> Even if they had more legs they probably couldn't miss more than 2 of them >> to permanently free them for hands. >> >> Also it would be unlikely that animals that stand on 4 legs would have only >> a stump to stand on. Having a few small extremeties at each leg gives much >> more stability. >> >> So while there are creatures with more than 4 legs, they aren't likely to >> support a big brain. >> That leaves only 2 legs to support the hands. If these 2 hands want to do >> anything constructive, they better have more than 2 fingers. > >???!! You have some strange and unsupported assumptions there. MOst of >earths walking life forms have more than 4 legs. Almost all of the rest have >4. Given that humans are fairly small as animals go, I can't see any >justification in assuming large 4 or six limbed creatures are impossible. > Hell we have predatores in north america that are almost a ton! - First I said that only larger animals could support a brain large enough to become intelligent. (I think a mouse-brain is too small) - Then, I said that more that 4 legs were a disadvantage for larger animals because of the extra weight. - After eliminating all creatures with more than 4 legs, I said that that 2 of those 4 legs had to be used for tool-making etc. >>I also wonder if creatures with gills (using oxigen in the water) could have >>a large brain. In the water you would need very large gills to get enough >>oxigen for that brain. Only very large underwater animals could have a big >>brain, but what would the advantage be for them? They already are at the top >> of the food-chain. > >Gills in water actually need les body mass than lungs in air. I think that's because fish need much less oxigen. One of the reasons is because they are cold-blooded. One of the biggest fish are sharks, but they have to swim (slowly) all the time to get enough oxigen ot of the water. >> Indeed, most of our brain isn't devoted to anything as far as we know. -- > >Actually we do know what all the centers of the brain do, just not how they >do it. Why have I heard so many times that 90% of the brain (or did they mean the cerebrum) is unused? >> --- I >> meant that a large part is devoted to what you can do with your hands. >> Suppose you have a large brain, but no hands/legs to make use of it. There >> would not be any advantage then to have a bigger brain, so it would not >>evolve. > >The biggest section of the human brain evolved to use the eyes, not hands. > Niether are used in itelegence, that evolved separatly. Yes, I'm slowly seeing that size is not the most important factor and that the largest part of the brain was and is already available. Could it be that the use of hands and its applications involved a completely new way of neuron interconnection which had intelligence as convenient side product? If I'm not right about this hands->brain connection, then why did we get a bigger brain? Timothy From popserver Wed Jan 31 17:50:58 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3502" "Wed" "31" "January" "1996" "08:40:37" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.magec.com" nil "65" "I found the food numbers!" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: kgstar@most.magec.com Received: from most.magec.com (gw1.magec.com [151.168.2.3]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id FAA05766 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 05:41:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by most.magec.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04090; Wed, 31 Jan 96 08:43:13 EST Received: from unknown(151.168.254.82) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI003994; Wed Jan 31 08:41:20 1996 Received: by most (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02213; Wed, 31 Jan 96 08:41:18 EST Received: from ss4.magec.com(151.168.145.199) by most via smap (V1.5khhunt) id sma002201; Wed Jan 31 08:40:40 1996 Received: from [151.168.146.187] (kgstar) by ss4.uiv (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29023; Wed, 31 Jan 96 08:40:35 EST X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: kgstar@most.magec.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) To: David@interworld.com (David Levine) Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 , Kevin C Houston , Steve VanDevender , KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: I found the food numbers! Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 08:40:37 -0500 I found the analysis I did on food mass numbers!!! ============================================================================ Date 6/29/95 Subject Food Mass The farms discussed in the "Space Settlements: A design study" (the book I reference frequently, and STRONGLY recommend) lists the farm mass per person at about 36 tons of which 22 tons is soil. The farm includes everything from farm animals to fish, and all normal grains and vegetables. The idea was to make it capable of providing all normal food needed for a standard North American diet for a population of 10,000. Said diet according to their numbers weighed about 1.67 tons per-person per year. They also assumed that with intensive care this farm could produce twice the yield of the best farms on earth. Now we found that rations for field troops or explorers weighed about 2.2 kilos per day (.8 tons per year) and dehydrated could be a lot less. But over all; 36 tons per person is about 21 years of food mass at their 1.67 tons per year, or 45 food years at our .8 tons per year. I'm not even going to bother with freeze dried numbers. We won't want to be out that long! Even if you assume no soil. The mass is still 14 tons per person. Which comes to 8.38 year of 1.67 tons per year food years, or 17.5 years at our .8 tons per year. Then I realized that the farm design required doubling the internal volume of the hab centrifuge. Which would add another 20 to 230 tons per person! (the latter if you shielded the farm centrifuge.) Any way I ran it, the mass for a transportable, self sustaining farm, wound up greater than the stored food mass for the duration of our projected missions. Given that the stored mass would decline as the mission went on (on good thing for the return flight), stored food would be simpler and more reliable than trying to maintain a running farm during a mission, and the farm would almost double the size of the full g gravitation sections needed in the ship. I decided to dump the idea and assume ultra frozen and dried foods stored in the zero g section of the ship. We could have a couple gardens for fun and fresh Veggies, but I'd assume they were just a couple plants in the corner of peoples apartments. You might do an analysis to see if hydroponics for the vegies would weigh less than storing frozen veggies. I.E. we store the meat, flour, rice, milk, ect.., but grow the fruits and vegetables. But for my porpoises I assumed the mass numbers wouldn't show an advantage. Oh, while on the topic of Mass. The drive system people seem to be going through hoops to build a huge, high efficiency (relativistic exhaust) engine to keep the necessary reaction mass amounts down to grams per day. I would suggest that if we aren't going to recycle our -- ah-- food by products. The crew will be providing a few tons of usable mass per day. Dehydrate, incinerate to plasma or ionize, and pump it into the accelerator. With an electro-magnetic accelerator (as apposed to a thermal rocket) the type of mass used is unimportant, and for ship design purposes using the same stored mass to feed the crew and drive system is very elegant and efficient. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Sr. Systems Engineer Magnavox Electronic Systems Company (Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From popserver Wed Jan 31 17:51:15 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["844" "Wed" "31" "January" "1996" "09:26:10" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "22" "Re: Hands and brains" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: David@interworld.com Received: from www.interworld.com (interworld.com [165.254.130.4]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id GAA07923 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 06:25:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from hal ([165.254.130.90]) by www.interworld.com (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 0-11464) with SMTP id AAA309; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 09:30:37 -0500 Message-ID: <310F7C02.7269@interworld.com> Organization: InterWorld, Really Cool Stuff Division X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0b5 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199601310923.AA28539@student.utwente.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David@interworld.com (David Levine) To: Timothy van der Linden CC: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Hands and brains Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 09:26:10 -0500 Timothy van der Linden wrote: > > To David: > >While social and intelligent > >animals, they're certainly not more intelligent than human > >beings. Perhaps the absolute size of a certain section > >of the brain? Like the cerebellum? > > I think you mean cerebrum (the large brains). Yup, thanks. Hey, all, I've just been contacted by the BBC via email about a television show they want to do this summer about how science fiction becomes science fact. I'm not sure they understand that LIT is a bunch of amateur starship designers, and not actual professors or anything. I'm not sure what to tell them. I've been thinking about just explaining the situation to them, explaining exactly what it is we're doing, and perhaps giving them email addresses of good people to contact whom I've met through LIT (like Zenon, if you'd want?)... From popserver Wed Jan 31 17:51:25 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1792" "Wed" "31" "January" "1996" "15:49:34" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "33" "Re: I found the food numbers!" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id HAA11668 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 07:36:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA07141 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Wed, 31 Jan 1996 15:49:19 +0100 Message-Id: <199601311449.AA07141@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: I found the food numbers! Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 15:49:34 +0100 > Now we found that rations for field troops or explorers weighed about 2.2 >kilos per day (.8 tons per year) and dehydrated could be a lot less. But >over all; 36 tons per person is about 21 years of food mass at their 1.67 >tons per year, or 45 food years at our .8 tons per year. I'm not even >going to bother with freeze dried numbers. We won't want to be out that >long! Even if you assume no soil. The mass is still 14 tons per person. >Which comes to 8.38 year of 1.67 tons per year food years, or 17.5 years at >our .8 tons per year. Then I realized that the farm design required >doubling the internal volume of the hab centrifuge. Which would add another >20 to 230 tons per person! (the latter if you shielded the farm >centrifuge.) Would stored food need no protection against radiation? I'm not sure how much and if the food would become radioactive. But if it does, it may need shielding too. >Oh, while on the topic of Mass. The drive system people seem to be going >through hoops to build a huge, high efficiency (relativistic exhaust) >engine to keep the necessary reaction mass amounts down to grams per day. >I would suggest that if we aren't going to recycle our -- ah-- food by >products. The crew will be providing a few tons of usable mass per day. >Dehydrate, incinerate to plasma or ionize, and pump it into the >accelerator. With an electro-magnetic accelerator (as apposed to a thermal >rocket) the type of mass used is unimportant, and for ship design purposes >using the same stored mass to feed the crew and drive system is very >elegant and efficient. Using all these different kinds of atoms would not be very efficient and probably impossible. Accelerators work best if only one kind of particle (depending on mass & charge) is used. Timothy From popserver Wed Jan 31 17:51:27 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4562" "Wed" "31" "January" "1996" "15:36:10" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "92" "Re: Power!" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id HAA12279 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 07:47:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA05009 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Wed, 31 Jan 1996 15:35:53 +0100 Message-Id: <199601311435.AA05009@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Power! Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 15:36:10 +0100 To: Brian Mansur . . . still there and thinking >I ran some calculations over Christmas and found that to produce 1E18 W, >which is what Kevin, and the rest of the solar system would like, requires >billions of square kilometers of solar arrays. The exact number depends on >collection/transmission efficiencies and, of course, the distance of the >collectors from the Sol. Since the total circular area of say Mercury is on >the order of mere millions of kilometers, even covering the planet with >solar panels is not going to produce close to 1E18 W. Indeed just use: Area needed for 1E18 watt solar power = (4 pi r^2)/4E10 r=distance to the Sun (This assumes 100% efficiency) For Mecury this means r=5.8E10 --> Area=1E12 m^2 The radius of Mercury is 2.433E6 metres thus its surface is 4*Pi*r^2 this gives a surface of 7.44E13 m^2. So the total surface of Mercury is 70 times bigger. Of course only one half can be illuminated at once so then the area is 35 times bigger than needed by 100% efficiency. >Since launching and recovering these arrays at the rates needed to keep up >E9's of panels at any given time seem to cost more power and resources than >we'd like, I suggest that we tether the panels to Mercury's poles. > >What?! Can't be done, you say? Well, probably, but we're grasping for >ideas here. > >Think about it. It would be like flying a kite on the solar wind. Since >Mercury does have some rotation relative to its revolution (it is not faced >locked with the sun like the moon is with Earth) we build superduper strong >suspension cables/towers/ whatever at the poles where we could perhaps >counter-rotate the cable anchors on a merrygoround to prevent them from >winding up as Mercury spins. That or we could put down many, many >individual connections to the surface that can be unlinked and reset to keep >(torquing is it?) to a minimum. I wonder what will be a bigger force, Mercuries gravity or the solar radiation pressure, this of course depends on the distance from Mercury. The cables you are talking about should indeed be very strong: m=mass of the cable g=Mercury gravity (3.58 m/s^2) F=force rho=density of the material of the cable (using Aluminium 2.6E3 kg/m^3) l=length of the cable A=Area of a cut through surface of the cable (depends on the tickness) T=Pull strength (in Pascal=N/m^2) F=m*g m=rho*l*A T=F/A --> T=rho*l*g So now we know the minimum pull strength needed for a cable of length l and a density rho in having a gravitional acceleration g. So assuming that gravity doesn't change much the first 1E6 metres: T=2.6E3*1E6*3.58=9.3E9 Pa The pull strength of aluminium is about 3E8 Pa thus such a long line will snap under its own weight. Of course I used a line that had the same thickness all along the line. It would be better if the line was thick at the bottom and thin high in the "air". So in these cases the weight of the cable is an important factor assuming that it is pulled upward enough (In the worst case the cable is so heavy that it will drag the whole solar-array down to Mercury.) Now that I think about it, I wonder if cables are needed. You could just keep the whole array floating in at a place where solar radiation pressure and the pull of Mercury are equal, then add some small engines to keep it there. I thought of this before but then not using Mercury but using the Sun itself to pull the array back, the problem thereby was that it probably had to be to close to the Sun, unless ofcourse it rotates around the Sun at just the right distance. The porblem that I see though is that any rotating solar-array is difficult to use, since the angles of incoming and outgoing radiation constantly change and don't equal each other, which causes an instable orbit. >As I said, I don't know if this will work because I realize that, even with >a lot of cables dividing the load of the pull by a collector the size of a >face of Jupiter, the tension will be incredible. Also there is Mercury's >gravitational attractions for the array and the cables to consider. I hope >someone can give some hope to this idea because I don't have the time or >skills to try to figure out the dynamics. An advantage to this idea, >however, would be that we could keep the array very close to a planet sized >solar panel service station. Oh, and another problem to consider is how the >mercury rises as one nears the orbit of Mercury. Radiation levels at Mercury are about 7 times higher, so it may be able to overcome the increase of temperature. Timothy From popserver Thu Feb 1 03:02:08 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2037" "Wed" "31" "January" "1996" "17:22:42" "-0800" "Ric Rddesign Denisse Hedman" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" nil "36" "Re: Hands and brains" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: rddesign@wolfenet.com Received: from wolfe.net (mail1.wolfe.net [204.157.98.11]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id RAA00732 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 17:21:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from rddesign.wolfenet.com (sea-ts1-p36.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.90]) by wolfe.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id RAA19722; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 17:22:42 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199602010122.RAA19722@wolfe.net> X-Sender: rddesign@wolfenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric & Denisse Hedman) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Subject: Re: Hands and brains Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 17:22:42 -0800 (PST) > >>> There are only 100-200 people needed to operate a submarine and they are >>> able to live more than 1 year isolated from the outside world. >> >>Submarines are much simpler than carriers, and they seldom operate more than >>3 months without coming into port. Actually I can't think of one ever going >>a year submurged? (RICK!! ??) > >As far as I know they only come to the surface to recalibrate the navigation >systems. They even don't communicate with the home base so that their exact >position isn't known (They do receive messages though, but don't answer) >I've heard they sometimes don't harbour for more than a year, this of course >depends on the size of the submarine. (The largest Russian sub even has a >small swimming pool!) A Submarines Inertial Navigation System is calibrated before the boat ever goes on its' first seatrial. Any adjustments are done at that time. Any fine tuning later would prbably be done in a shipyard. Befxore the boat was commissioned the Nav System would have been signed off as a matter of course. In the whole time I was aboard we never had to adjust ours. To get a "satnav" fix you would have to put a parascope up, (they have a stack of antenas on the top of them,) and get your satalite fixes. Parascopes even have a sextent in them to do star and moon and sun sights from parascope depth. The Inertial Nav System works off of the gyro cumpuses, shaft speed, current speed and direction and course steared. In my day it was a computer the size of a refrigerator. I'm sure it is much smaller now. Submarines opperates as our starship will have to, no contact or very little contact with a home base. Operating oders are issued and opened after the boat has sailed. Each boat has its' own mission to perform and needs no contact to carry it out. Yes that Russin sub is a monster. :-) and from what I have heard about Russin subs the men deserve all the bennies they can get, The early Russian nukes were so "dirty" with radiation that the death rate from cancer was very high. Ric From popserver Thu Feb 1 03:02:16 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3543" "Wed" "31" "January" "1996" "17:28:02" "-0800" "Ric Rddesign Denisse Hedman" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" nil "63" "Re: I found the food numbers!" "^From:" nil nil "1" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: rddesign@wolfenet.com Received: from wolfe.net (mail1.wolfe.net [204.157.98.11]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id RAA01210 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 17:26:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from rddesign.wolfenet.com (sea-ts1-p36.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.90]) by wolfe.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id RAA20245; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 17:28:02 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199602010128.RAA20245@wolfe.net> X-Sender: rddesign@wolfenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric & Denisse Hedman) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Subject: Re: I found the food numbers! Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 17:28:02 -0800 (PST) >I found the analysis I did on food mass numbers!!! > > >============================================================================ > Date 6/29/95 Subject Food Mass > > >The farms discussed in the "Space Settlements: A design study" (the book I >reference frequently, and STRONGLY recommend) lists the farm mass per >person at about 36 tons of which 22 tons is soil. The farm includes >everything from farm animals to fish, and all normal grains and vegetables. >The idea was to make it capable of providing all normal food needed for a >standard North American diet for a population of 10,000. Said diet >according to their numbers weighed about 1.67 tons per-person per year. >They also assumed that with intensive care this farm could produce twice >the yield of the best farms on earth. > > Now we found that rations for field troops or explorers weighed about 2.2 >kilos per day (.8 tons per year) and dehydrated could be a lot less. But >over all; 36 tons per person is about 21 years of food mass at their 1.67 >tons per year, or 45 food years at our .8 tons per year. I'm not even >going to bother with freeze dried numbers. We won't want to be out that >long! Even if you assume no soil. The mass is still 14 tons per person. >Which comes to 8.38 year of 1.67 tons per year food years, or 17.5 years at >our .8 tons per year. Then I realized that the farm design required >doubling the internal volume of the hab centrifuge. Which would add another >20 to 230 tons per person! (the latter if you shielded the farm >centrifuge.) > >Any way I ran it, the mass for a transportable, self sustaining farm, wound >up greater than the stored food mass for the duration of our projected >missions. Given that the stored mass would decline as the mission went on >(on good thing for the return flight), stored food would be simpler and >more reliable than trying to maintain a running farm during a mission, and >the farm would almost double the size of the full g gravitation sections >needed in the ship. I decided to dump the idea and assume ultra frozen and >dried foods stored in the zero g section of the ship. We could have a >couple gardens for fun and fresh Veggies, but I'd assume they were just a >couple plants in the corner of peoples apartments. You might do an >analysis to see if hydroponics for the vegies would weigh less than storing >frozen veggies. I.E. we store the meat, flour, rice, milk, ect.., but grow >the fruits and vegetables. But for my porpoises I assumed the mass numbers >wouldn't show an advantage. > >Oh, while on the topic of Mass. The drive system people seem to be going >through hoops to build a huge, high efficiency (relativistic exhaust) >engine to keep the necessary reaction mass amounts down to grams per day. >I would suggest that if we aren't going to recycle our -- ah-- food by >products. The crew will be providing a few tons of usable mass per day. >Dehydrate, incinerate to plasma or ionize, and pump it into the >accelerator. With an electro-magnetic accelerator (as apposed to a thermal >rocket) the type of mass used is unimportant, and for ship design purposes >using the same stored mass to feed the crew and drive system is very >elegant and efficient. Reply to Kelly If we dump our "waste" into the fuel hopper we lose all that water that we are going to need unless you plan to squeeze all the water out first. I'm not adverse to putting unusable waste into the "fuel chain" for the ship but lets be sure we don't need it for other reasons first, please. Ric From popserver Thu Feb 1 16:35:21 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["22615" "Thu" "1" "February" "1996" "08:16:07" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.magec.com" nil "569" "Re: Fwd: LIT e-mail discussion group" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: kgstar@most.magec.com Received: from most.magec.com (gw1.magec.com [151.168.2.3]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id FAA12376 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 05:16:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by most.magec.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15474; Thu, 1 Feb 96 08:18:38 EST Received: from unknown(151.168.254.82) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI015393; Thu Feb 1 08:16:41 1996 Received: by most (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02720; Thu, 1 Feb 96 08:16:38 EST Received: from ss4.magec.com(151.168.145.199) by most via smap (V1.5khhunt) id sma002716; Thu Feb 1 08:16:08 1996 Received: from [151.168.146.187] (kgstar) by ss4.uiv (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06095; Thu, 1 Feb 96 08:16:04 EST X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: kgstar@most.magec.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) To: kgstar@most.magec.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) Cc: Kevin C Houston , Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 , Steve VanDevender , KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Fwd: LIT e-mail discussion group Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 08:16:07 -0500 Ah, its been about a week since I sent out my draft summarry document (attached), and (other then Daves compliment) I haven't heard any responce to it. No one has any complaints, things they want added, changed etc? Kelly At 11:29 AM 1/23/96, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: >Ok, here my first cut of a summary of all the options we've come up with. >(or at least all I can remember.) I figure this is the next step up from >Zenons proposed table of contents. We might want to work this up to a >summary or central reference page for the LIT server. (More detailed >secoundary pages could brach off it.) I'll do more as I get some time. (I >working to finish the first draft of my secound novel! So I'll be >preoccupeid) > >Please review and comment. > >Kelly > > > > >============================================================ > Mission flight type >--------------------------------- >One-way > * Suicide (explore and die before your time when supplies end) > * One-way (Enough supplies are shipped to stay in target system until >natural death) > > >(For some inexplicable reason this option has one or two strong advocates >within L.I.T.. I want it absolutely known that I neither approve or in >anyway support such an option. Nor would I in any credible situation >expect it to generate anything but revulsion among the general tax paying >public. Kelly Starks - The Author.) > >>Pros >The ship need only be designed for a one time, one way flight. This limits >the technical mission risk and requires less resources. > >Least likelihood of back contaminating Earth. > >Establishes temporary outpost in starsystem. > >Allows investigation of the starsystem to continue until al exploration >resources are exhausted or worn out. Presumably for a decade or so, >depending on the service life of the shuttles or their support facilities, >or the service life of the remotes. > >>Cons >To put it mildly the public acceptance of sending explorers out to die the >mission and die on the frontier is low. Risking dying maybe, but >assigned/left to die by superiors -- no way. Every politician within ear >shot will run in front of the closest camera to announce that he or she >will personally lead the witch-hunt to track down everyone connected with >suggesting this idea. > >It has been suggested (adamantly) by some members of the group, that this >might be justifiable under some situation, or that this would be acceptable >as a colonization mission, especially if the colony could be made >completely self sufficient from the start. Aside from the technical >impossibility of doing the latter. Its unlikely in the extreme, that such >risks would be acceptable in an initial mission. At the very least the >mission would have to be designed as a two way flight with the option of >founding a colony or outpost. Also their would be considerable debate as >to why we would want to set up a permanent outpost in a place we don't know >anything about, and have no idea if we'd want to stay at. This debate >would get louder when the continuing cost of supply flights was discussed. > >Other problems would be: > >The potential supply of skilled personnel would obviously drop, if they >knew they were to be abandoned in the system when they finished the >mission. Especially given that their project life expectancy (due to the >lack of 'modern' medical facilities) would drop by a few decades, all but a >few years of which they'd spend trapped in a traveling, or derelict ship. > >Lower information return to Earth due to limited baud rates of interstellar >communication. > >Projected types of crew termination > - Voluntary suicide at end of exploration phase of mission. >This is likely as some crewmen decide to avoid living out the rest of their >years imprisoned in a derelict ship. > > - Death due to catastrophic failure of vital ship systems as the ship >wears out. >Obviously the ships systems won't last forever, and can't be rebuilt or >replaced completely. At some point it will simply wear out and fail. This >could be a single failure, like a major structural breach of the habitation >or support systems due to metal fatigue. Or a accumulation of lesser >failure as sub-systems begin to unravel. > > - Death due to medical limitations. >Given the limited medical facilities and personnel available on the ship. >Crew life expectancies would be far less than those who stayed at home with >access to modern medical care. Given the mid 21st century high-tech >population would conservatively have a projected life expectancy of 100-130 >years, with elongated vigorous years. (Some estimates are far higher.) >The crews limited medical life expectancy may still be nearly current US >norms. > > - Death due to chronic crew failure. >At some point the crew will simply be to old to maintain and operate the >ship, or provide their own medical care. At this point, without a follow >on generation to rescue or care for them, they will slowly or quickly die >off due to a combination of the above listed causes. > > >--------------------------------- >Round trip (Crew returns to Earth with ship at mission end.) > >>Pros >Simplest option, and one with little likely hood of public objection. > >More likely to get more volunteers and better qualified volunteers for flight. > >This option implies that the mission is fairly short. I.E. within the >professional life of the crew. This would imply its short enough to return >information in a useful amount of time. (I.E. it would get there and back, >before a later faster flight could do it.) > >It would return far more information than an interstellar communications >link could manage. > >It obviously avoids the grisly public relations and crew morale problems of >a one way mission. > >>cons >Technically more challenging. Getting a ship to the target starsystem is >hard enough. Getting it back would make it harder. But this must be >traded off against the added complexity of a ship capable of supporting its >crew for the rest of their lives. > > It has to be a fast enough ship to get back in an acceptable amount of >time. To slow and theirs no practical reason to send it. > > > >--------------------------------- >Pick up and return by follow on flight > >>Pros >Most of the advantages of the round trip model, and would allow the first >ship to be a mobile research station or other specialized ship, with faster >courier ships providing round trip flights. > >>cons >High risk and more complicated. Multiple ship types, and concerns that the >first ship might be left stranded. > > >--------------------------------- >Crew constructs equipment for return flight >This option come up with light/microwave sail craft, beamed power craft, >and fuel launcher craft. The crew would construct automated duplicates of >the systems that launched the ship from Sol space. > >>Pros >Would establish launcher facilities in both star systems. Which could >allowing faster two way flights with specialized fast light ships. > >The crew might get back faster with their ship using the constructed >launcher systems for assistance. > >cons >If they can't build the equipment, they don't get home. > >The construction phase may require so many resources that the first flight >is devoted just to infrastructure construction. With little or no >exploration being done in the first mission. This obviously would cool >public interest and slow down the return of productive information. > > > > >--------------------------------- >Multi-step. (Ship proceeds to other target star after completion of first >mission, in first starsystem.) > >>Pros >One mission explores multiple star systems. > >>cons >Technical feasibility is low since wear and tear on the ship would >accumulate, dramatically increasing the likelihood of a catastrophic >failure. > >Because of the extremely long flight times with likely technology, the >mission would take so long as to be undesirable. At some point the ship >would be superseded by newer faster ships sent straight out from earth, >decades after its launch. > > >--------------------------------- >Multi-generation Succeeding generations of crew continue the mission > >>Pros >This is the one of the standard concepts suggested to get around the >extremely long flight times. > >Could allow extremely long flight times. > >cons >The ship would have to be huge to support the active crew, >retired/incapacitated crew, children, and all the extra support facilities >and personnel they would require. > >The crew, ship, and equipment would need to be even larger than that to >allow them to be able to completely rebuild the ship from the inside out as >it, and its systems, exceeded their service lives. > >Any ship that takes that long to get to where it wants to go, will probably >find it gets there after newer faster ships from earth. So their is little >reason to launch it. > >The flight would take so long few people would be enthusiastic in launching >it, even if they didn't consider the likelihood of faster follow on craft. >I.E. why spend money on something you'll never see the results of, nor even >ever know if they made it. > >The follow on generation(s) in the ship will have no allegiance or >commitment to the mission or its originators (they, never agreed to >anything). > >The follow on generations would have no hands-on experience with the >exploration systems they would be expected to use. Or for that matter, any >experience with planets and starsystems. > >Its harder to get qualified people to go on such a flight. People who want >to explore wouldn't want to spend the rest of their life stuck in a ship, >knowing they will never contribute anything but their genes. > > > >--------------------------------- >Hibernation flight >>Pros >This is the other one of the standard concepts suggested to get around the >extremely long flight times. > >The ship would not need to support the inactive crew. > >The crew wouldn't need to spend years of their lives waiting around in the >ship with nothing to do until they get to the star system. > >The crew will still be fresh and familiar with their jobs when then are >waken up in the star system. > > >>cons >The ship systems will still exceeded their service lives, but their may not >be enough people around to service them. The sleepers could wind up dying >on route as the ship died around them. > >The sleepers would have to be extremely well shielded from radiation, since >their cell repair mechanisms would be as dead as they are. > >Any ship that takes that long to get to where it wants to go, will probably >find it gets there after newer faster ships from earth. > >The flight would take so long few people would be enthusiastic in launching it. > > > > > > technical political Desirability > Risk Feasibility risk Feasibility >------------------------------------------------------------- >One-way med-low Medium Ex-high Nil Low >Round trip medium medium low High high >Pick-up Med-high medium medium medium medium >Construct ret high med-high medium medium medium >Multi-step Ex-High. med-low low Medium medium >Multi-gen Ex-high Low high medium low >Hibernation high Low medium medium low > > > > > >------------------------------- > >============================================================ >Alternatives >--------------------------------- >robotic fly by's > >>Pro >Could use a smaller lighter ship and could tolerate longer flight times. > >>Con >requires extremely good A.I. systems and reliability (which may or may not >be likely by 2050), and would generate far less public interest. > >Why bother, you could do nearly as well with huge telescope systems in the >Sol star systems > > >--------------------------------- >Robotic exploration > >>Pro >Could use a far smaller lighter ship and could tolerate longer flight times. > >>Con >Again requires extremely good A.I. systems and reliability, and would >generate less public interest. > >Would be less capable than a manned mission. > > > > >============================================================ >Mission purpose >--------------------------------- >Colonization of planets or moons > >>Pro >Very popular idea with public. > >Excellent staging area for direct examination of that planet or moon. > >>Con >Expensive. Either the colony would need to be the size of a major city to >support all of the specialists needed to support a self sustaining society, >or regular (extremely expensive) supply flights from earth would be >necessary. > >On a planet with a Earth-like ecology it would be a biological death trap. >Alien microbes, allergens, and other unknowns life forms would easily >defeat unprepared Earth mammalian immune systems. > >On a planet with a non-Earth-like ecology it still could be a biological >death trap, and in addition have basic climate and biosphere >incompatibilities (Wrong temperatures, air pressures, gravity). > >Isolation from resources. Ores, energy and raw materials are far harder to >access on a planet than in space. > >Isolation from other planets. > >Their doesn't seem to be enough practical justification for such a massive >undertaking. > > >--------------------------------- >Colonization of constructed space platforms > >>Pro >Still may be a very popular idea with public. > >Excellent staging area for examination of the solar system. > >Much lower biological threat than on a planet with biosphere. > >The internal gravity, radiation, and environment can be precisely tailored >to humans. > >Far easier to construct and service than a planet bound colony. > >Easy access to plentiful resources. (Space is considered so much richer in >cheap, easy to access resources and power. That it is expected that >Earth's heavy industry will migrate into space in the next century.) > >Could act as a servicing center and supply port for the starship, or >subsequent starships. > > >>Con >Expensive. Either the colony would need to be the size of a major city to >support all of the specialists needed to support a self sustaining society, >or regular (extremely expensive) supply flights from earth would be >necessary. > >Their doesn't seem to be enough practical justification for such a massive >undertaking. > > > >--------------------------------- >Infrastructure construction > >>Pro >This could establish facilities necessary for routine, lower cost, flights >between home and this starsystem. > >>Con >Construction could take so many resources that little or no exploration >will be done. > >Less interesting to public than an exploration or colony program. > >Could be very expensive. > > >-------------------------------------------------- >============================================================ >propulsion systems >--------------------------------- >Fusion feed from internal fuel sources. > >A fusion powered rocket could cross interstellar distances, and is a near >term enough technology to be considered likely for the mid 21st century. >Unfortunately the amount of fuel it takes to get such a ship up to a usable >speed (at least 1/5th of light speed is necessary. More than a 1/3rd is >highly desirable.) is not carryable by such a ship. Since the fuel would >weigh hundreds to thousands of times as much as the rest of the ship. > >For example for a fusion rocket with a specific impulse of 1,000,000. If >you wanted to use such an engine to accelerate a ship up to 1/6th the speed >of light. The ship would need to carry 147 times its dry weight in fuel. >If you want to get to 1/3rd the speed of light, it would need to carry >22,000 times its weight in fuel! Obviously no realistic ship could do >this. > >(Note: a specific impulse of 1,000,000 (A exhaust velocity of >10,000,000m/s) means that the engine gives 1,000,000 pounds of thrust, for >one second, for every pound of fuel consumed. This has long been >considered a very do-able fusion performance number. For comparison the >best chemical engines have a specific impulse of 455.) > >--------------------------------- >Staged fusion ship > >You start with a 1 billion ton fueled ship cluster driven by a 10 million >ton engine and support structure (yeah right.). That engine is powerful >enough to push the whole mess with an acceleration rate of 10m/s. > >When you burn off 95% of your weight in fuel. The ship cluster weighs 50 >million tons, 20% of which is a first stage engine/structure that's WAY too >powerful. You throw the first stage away and start a smaller second stage. >It weighs about 400,000 tons (about as much as 4 aircraft carriers) and >can push the 40,000,000 ton ship cluster. When you burn that down to >2,000,000 tons of cluster you throw that away that stage for a 70,000 ton >ship with 5-10,000 tons of drive systems. Which can use the remaining >390,000 tons of fuel to get itself into the system. > >stage total weight (tons) thruster pack and stage structure >1 1,000,000,000 10,000,000 >2 40,000,000 400,000 >3 2,000,000 70,000 ton ship > with 5-10,000 tons of > drive systems. > >This assumes a 100 to 1 thrust to weight ration for a fusion drive systems >(which is questionable), and once you get where your going, coming back is >out (unless of course you scale the craft up accordingly). But it would >give us huge fuel ratios for relativistic flight. So, in theory, a Multi >stage fusion craft could get to the star. Assuming of course you can find >a billion tons of fusion fuel, and a ship yard in space that can construct >a ship the size of an asteroid! Which means in practice the ship is >unbuildable. > >These numbers of course assume the ship has to carry the weight of its >fuel. Obviously craft normally have to carry their fuel, but their are >some ways around it. > >--------------------------------- >Fusion with externally feed fuel sources > >A fuel launcher is a linear accelerator mounted somewhere in our solar >system. It throws the fuel out in front of where the ship is going to fly. >The ship scoops up the fuel as its going along. This has several >advantages. The ships engines only need to accelerate the ship itself. >(They don't even have to adjust for changing ship weights.) The fuel is >accelerated up by the launcher. This means the launcher system (who's >power comes from unaccelerated fuel) takes up a large fraction of the load, >and the ship saves a lot of energy. > >Problems are that unless the ship is flying to a starsystem with a >operating fuel launcher. It can't fly any faster then a speed it can >decelerate from using its onboard fuel reserves. Also, this only works >when your close enough to the launcher that it can accurately launch the >fuel to you. Once your out of range, your stuck with fuel your caring. > >Fuel launchers (or beamed power) have the advantage of eliminating the need >for the ship to carry the heavy fuel (and power systems). That improves >the ships power to weight ratio significantly. But the systems are >difficult to do, limit range, and don't seem to help us to slow down. > > > >Beamed power > >Beamed power (or fuel launchers) have the advantage of eliminating the need >for the ship to carry the heavy fuel (and power systems). That improves >the ships power to weight ratio significantly. But the systems are >difficult to do, limit range, and don't seem to help us to slow down. > >Beamed power systems are most effective as microwave sail craft. But >powered electromagnetic drives are possible also. > > >Anti-matter >Can be destroyed to create tremendous amounts of energy. Releases over a >hundred times as much power per pound of fuel as a fusion reaction. > >Unfortunately, though it releases more power, this power is harder to >directly use to power the ship. It is however far more dangerous to >handle. If we could synthesize the thousands of tons of antimatter this >would take. It would have the potential of exploding with a force of >hundreds of millions of H-bombs. > >We do not have the technology needed to synthesis, store, or ship >anti-matter on this scale, and are not likely to get it by 2050. > >Ramscoop > >This idea would allow a ship to scoop up interstellar hydrogen and use it >for fuel. Like a fuel launcher system it could accelerate to high speeds >without concern for high fuel to weight ratio's. > >Unfortunately we don't really know what's in interstellar space, but we do >know we are in a very thin part of it due to a recent supernova in the >area. We might need a scoop thousands of kilometers across for a decent >sized ship. > >We also know that straight hydrogen is very hard to fuse, and doesn't fuse >as quickly as we might need. > >All in all we have no real idea on how to make such a ship work. > > > >Future tech > >The engineering and science we have now and assume we will have in the >future will change. Fusion, fission, relativity, quantum mechanics, and a >host of other basics of current physics; all were discovered within the >last hundred years. We can conservatively expect physics to have changed >far more in the next hundred years, then it did in the last hundred years. >What technologies that age will have on hand are impossible to guess. They >could have matter conversion, hyperlight drives, new understandings of >inertia and kinetic energy, or all those and far more. Any of these would >dramatically effect our ability to travel between the stars. So even >though we can't come up with any practical ideas for exploring the stars >now, we can be sure our descendants will find it far easier than we >imagine. > >Kelly Starks > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Kelly Starks Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com >Sr. Systems Engineer >Magnavox Electronic Systems Company >(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Sr. Systems Engineer Magnavox Electronic Systems Company (Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From popserver Thu Feb 1 16:36:08 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6750" "Thu" "1" "February" "1996" "10:24:39" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "167" "Re: Fwd: LIT e-mail discussion group" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id IAA22264 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 08:23:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Thu, 1 Feb 96 10:24:41 -0600 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 , Steve VanDevender , KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Fwd: LIT e-mail discussion group Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 10:24:39 -0600 (CST) On Thu, 1 Feb 1996, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: > Ah, its been about a week since I sent out my draft summarry document > (attached), and (other then Daves compliment) I haven't heard any responce > to it. No one has any complaints, things they want added, changed etc? > > Kelly Actually, I found most of what you said to be fair and balanced. Some of it may be _wrong_, but i can't prove it (yet) For one-way trips, I agree that they are undesirable. I agree that very little supoort would be generated. I disagree that there won't ever be a situation in which we'd have to send one. I agree that we should try evey thing else first, and then as a last resort see if we can make a one-way trip. > > >Round trip (Crew returns to Earth with ship at mission end.) > > > >--------------------------------- > >Pick up and return by follow on flight I think we need to look into this idea some more, I don't think we have given it enough consideration to discard it too quickly. > > > >>Pros > >Most of the advantages of the round trip model, and would allow the first > >ship to be a mobile research station or other specialized ship, with faster > >courier ships providing round trip flights. > > > >>cons > >High risk and more complicated. Multiple ship types, and concerns that the > >first ship might be left stranded. I don't think the multiple ship types is all that worrisome, I think that the engines would be the same, so the only difference would be the hab rings, etc. specialized equipment. > >--------------------------------- > >Crew constructs equipment for return flight > >This option come up with light/microwave sail craft, beamed power craft, > >and fuel launcher craft. The crew would construct automated duplicates of > >the systems that launched the ship from Sol space. > > > >>Pros > >Would establish launcher facilities in both star systems. Which could > >allowing faster two way flights with specialized fast light ships. > > > >The crew might get back faster with their ship using the constructed > >launcher systems for assistance. > > > >cons > >If they can't build the equipment, they don't get home. perhaps they should be required to build the sol-based launching system as a dry-run. > > > >The construction phase may require so many resources that the first flight > >is devoted just to infrastructure construction. With little or no > >exploration being done in the first mission. This obviously would cool > >public interest and slow down the return of productive information. I really see the developement of a two-tiered crew. one set flys the ship, and builds the return infrastructure. the other set does the exploration and analysis of the data. The flight crew may not have any real work in the target system, so they may be the logical choice to build the return infrastructure. > >--------------------------------- > >Multi-step. (Ship proceeds to other target star after completion of first > >mission, in first starsystem.) > > > >>Pros > >One mission explores multiple star systems. > > > >>cons > >Technical feasibility is low since wear and tear on the ship would > >accumulate, dramatically increasing the likelihood of a catastrophic > >failure. > > > >Because of the extremely long flight times with likely technology, the > >mission would take so long as to be undesirable. At some point the ship > >would be superseded by newer faster ships sent straight out from earth, > >decades after its launch. Agreed > > technical political Desirability > > Risk Feasibility risk Feasibility > >------------------------------------------------------------- > >One-way med-low Medium Ex-high Nil Low > >Round trip medium medium low High high > >Pick-up Med-high medium medium medium medium > >Construct ret high med-high medium medium medium > >Multi-step Ex-High. med-low low Medium medium > >Multi-gen Ex-high Low high medium low > >Hibernation high Low medium medium low > > I think the risk factor on construction return is too high, it should be medium to medium-low, the technology should be well-tested before the ship leaves earth. The political feasibility should be higher also, because we won't have to pay for the return flight, the explorers (or their robotic helpers) will build the solar arrays to power the return flight. I would say the desirability of the construction return option is medium high to high. Other wise I agree with your other analysises > >--------------------------------- > >Infrastructure construction > > > >>Pro > >This could establish facilities necessary for routine, lower cost, flights > >between home and this starsystem. > > > >>Con > >Construction could take so many resources that little or no exploration > >will be done. Again, I think there will be plenty of resources, given self-replicating robots. They don't have to be human-equivilent thinkers. they only have to have the _intelligence_ (as opposed to the capabilities) of a bee or a microbe. Think of the incrediblly complex hive that bees can make with limited thinking abilities. > > > >Less interesting to public than an exploration or colony program. if it was done co-currently with the exploration, then I don't think the public would mind. > >propulsion systems > >--------------------------------- > >--------------------------------- > >Staged fusion ship there is an equation that gives the maximum limits of a staged vehivle, but I don't know what it is. there is a point where adding another stage actually takes more power away from the engines than you get from the engines, this is known as the point of diminishing returns. > >Beamed power > > > >Beamed power (or fuel launchers) have the advantage of eliminating the need > >for the ship to carry the heavy fuel (and power systems). That improves > >the ships power to weight ratio significantly. But the systems are > >difficult to do, limit range, and don't seem to help us to slow down. > > > >Beamed power systems are most effective as microwave sail craft. But > >powered electromagnetic drives are possible also. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ And probably required for the mid-point to Target portion of the trip if you intend to travel near light-speed. Kevin (who wants the maser energy to heat up this frozen wasteland, so that I don't have to live in -26 F (-32 C) anymore) P.S. to Timothy, tell the BBC that We'd love to talk with them. I for one would have no problem doing an interview. :) From popserver Thu Feb 1 17:17:31 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["9174" "Thu" "1" "February" "1996" "12:10:15" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.magec.com" nil "225" "Re: Summary draft comments" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: kgstar@most.magec.com Received: from most.magec.com (gw1.magec.com [151.168.2.3]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id JAA25938 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:12:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by most.magec.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26762; Thu, 1 Feb 96 12:13:54 EST Received: from unknown(151.168.254.82) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI026555; Thu Feb 1 12:11:28 1996 Received: by most (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06299; Thu, 1 Feb 96 12:11:22 EST Received: from ss4.magec.com(151.168.145.199) by most via smap (V1.5khhunt) id sma006261; Thu Feb 1 12:10:16 1996 Received: from [151.168.146.187] (kgstar) by ss4.uiv (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07206; Thu, 1 Feb 96 12:10:13 EST X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: kgstar@most.magec.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) To: Kevin C Houston Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 , Steve VanDevender , KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu, David@interworld.com Subject: Re: Summary draft comments Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 12:10:15 -0500 At 10:24 AM 2/1/96, Kevin C Houston wrote: >On Thu, 1 Feb 1996, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: > >> Ah, its been about a week since I sent out my draft summarry document >> (attached), and (other then Daves compliment) I haven't heard any responce >> to it. No one has any complaints, things they want added, changed etc? >> >> Kelly > >Actually, I found most of what you said to be fair and balanced. Some of >it may be _wrong_, but i can't prove it (yet) Thanks, and yes much of it could be wrong, but I figured we have to start somewhere. >For one-way trips, I agree that they are undesirable. I agree that very >little supoort would be generated. I disagree that there won't ever be a >situation in which we'd have to send one. I agree that we should try >evey thing else first, and then as a last resort see if we can make a >one-way trip. Ever is a long time. I mean if the sun was going into a violent phase we might be desperate enough for everything. But none of those things seems likely in 2050. In general a interstellar mission is a like-to-do, rather than a need-to-do. > >> > >Round trip (Crew returns to Earth with ship at mission end.) >> > >> >--------------------------------- >> >Pick up and return by follow on flight > >I think we need to look into this idea some more, I don't think we have >given it enough consideration to discard it too quickly. It would have real advantages, if the follow up ship could take advantage of completed infastructure to travel at higher speeds. But it would mean the follow up ship would have to launch without knowing is their was an infastructure there to catch it. >> > >> >>Pros >> >Most of the advantages of the round trip model, and would allow the first >> >ship to be a mobile research station or other specialized ship, with faster >> >courier ships providing round trip flights. >> > >> >>cons >> >High risk and more complicated. Multiple ship types, and concerns that the >> >first ship might be left stranded. > >I don't think the multiple ship types is all that worrisome, I think that >the engines would be the same, so the only difference would be the hab >rings, etc. specialized equipment. Ship types is a engineer and complexity issue (you'ld be amazed how much trouble little modifications), but the stranded ship problem would be critical. Possibly the first ship could have (slower) self return capacity. >> >--------------------------------- >> >Crew constructs equipment for return flight >> >This option come up with light/microwave sail craft, beamed power craft, >> >and fuel launcher craft. The crew would construct automated duplicates of >> >the systems that launched the ship from Sol space. >> > >> >>Pros >> >Would establish launcher facilities in both star systems. Which could >> >allowing faster two way flights with specialized fast light ships. >> > >> >The crew might get back faster with their ship using the constructed >> >launcher systems for assistance. >> > >> >cons >> >If they can't build the equipment, they don't get home. > >perhaps they should be required to build the sol-based launching system >as a dry-run. Definatly! >> > >> >The construction phase may require so many resources that the first flight >> >is devoted just to infrastructure construction. With little or no >> >exploration being done in the first mission. This obviously would cool >> >public interest and slow down the return of productive information. > >I really see the developement of a two-tiered crew. one set flys the >ship, and builds the return infrastructure. the other set does the >exploration and analysis of the data. The flight crew may not have any >real work in the target system, so they may be the logical choice to >build the return infrastructure. Definatly some kind of multi crew designation. Maybe I should ty to rough out a crew structure? >> >--------------------------------- >> >Multi-step. (Ship proceeds to other target star after completion of first >> >mission, in first starsystem.) >> > >> >>Pros >> >One mission explores multiple star systems. >> > >> >>cons >> >Technical feasibility is low since wear and tear on the ship would >> >accumulate, dramatically increasing the likelihood of a catastrophic >> >failure. >> > >> >Because of the extremely long flight times with likely technology, the >> >mission would take so long as to be undesirable. At some point the ship >> >would be superseded by newer faster ships sent straight out from earth, >> >decades after its launch. > >Agreed > > >> > technical political Desirability >> > Risk Feasibility risk Feasibility >> >------------------------------------------------------------- >> >One-way med-low Medium Ex-high Nil Low >> >Round trip medium medium low High high >> >Pick-up Med-high medium medium medium medium >> >Construct ret high med-high medium medium medium >> >Multi-step Ex-High. med-low low Medium medium >> >Multi-gen Ex-high Low high medium low >> >Hibernation high Low medium medium low >> > > >I think the risk factor on construction return is too high, it should be >medium to medium-low, the technology should be well-tested before the ship >leaves earth. The political feasibility should be higher also, because >we won't have to pay for the return flight, the explorers (or their >robotic helpers) will build the solar arrays to power the return flight. >I would say the desirability of the construction return option is medium >high to high. Other wise I agree with your other analysises Well we'ld have to pay for the return flight one way or the other. I also worryied about a crew without backup, and years out of practice, tring to build a massive infastructure in an area they may not know anything about. I mean what if they can't find some critical resource, or find the area has an unexpected problem. >> >--------------------------------- >> >Infrastructure construction >> > >> >>Pro >> >This could establish facilities necessary for routine, lower cost, flights >> >between home and this starsystem. >> > >> >>Con >> >Construction could take so many resources that little or no exploration >> >will be done. > >Again, I think there will be plenty of resources, given self-replicating >robots. They don't have to be human-equivilent thinkers. they only have >to have the _intelligence_ (as opposed to the capabilities) of a bee or a >microbe. Think of the incrediblly complex hive that bees can make with >limited thinking abilities. I think self replicating robots is a high risk tech. So far we've never gotten close to developing it. So depending on it for some critical process worries me. On the other hand I've been thinking of expanding the ultra tech sectioon and discus alternat missions given a couple of exotic technologies. >> > >> >Less interesting to public than an exploration or colony program. > >if it was done co-currently with the exploration, then I don't think the >public would mind. Oh, yes. I was refering to a mission that only did infastructure. A mixed mission would be possible, but could get very big and expensive. >> >propulsion systems >> >--------------------------------- >> >--------------------------------- >> >Staged fusion ship > >there is an equation that gives the maximum limits of a staged vehivle, >but I don't know what it is. there is a point where adding another stage >actually takes more power away from the engines than you get from the >engines, this is known as the point of diminishing returns. Yeah unless the later stages have incrediable spec. imp., its a no go. >> >Beamed power >> > >> >Beamed power (or fuel launchers) have the advantage of eliminating the need >> >for the ship to carry the heavy fuel (and power systems). That improves >> >the ships power to weight ratio significantly. But the systems are >> >difficult to do, limit range, and don't seem to help us to slow down. >> > >> >Beamed power systems are most effective as microwave sail craft. But >> >powered electromagnetic drives are possible also. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >And probably required for the mid-point to Target portion of the trip if >you intend to travel near light-speed. We certainly need something. >Kevin (who wants the maser energy to heat up this frozen wasteland, so >that I don't have to live in -26 F (-32 C) anymore) YEOW! I'm glad I didn't take that job in Mini-St.P. Then again, I really hate Ft. Wayne. >P.S. to Timothy, tell the BBC that We'd love to talk with them. I for >one would have no problem doing an interview. :) ?? I'll incorporate your comments in the next draft. Kelly ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Sr. Systems Engineer Magnavox Electronic Systems Company (Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From popserver Thu Feb 1 23:41:09 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["962" "Fri" "2" "February" "1996" "00:17:25" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "16" "Re: Hands and brains" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id PAA26340 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 15:17:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA15284 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:17:09 +0100 Message-Id: <199602012317.AA15284@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Hands and brains Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 00:17:25 +0100 >A Submarines Inertial Navigation System is calibrated before the boat ever >goes on its' first seatrial. Any adjustments are done at that time. Any fine >tuning later would prbably be done in a shipyard. Befxore the boat was >commissioned the Nav System would have been signed off as a matter of >course. In the whole time I was aboard we never had to adjust ours. To get a >"satnav" fix you would have to put a parascope up, (they have a stack of >antenas on the top of them,) and get your satalite fixes. Parascopes even >have a sextent in them to do star and moon and sun sights from parascope >depth. The Inertial Nav System works off of the gyro cumpuses, shaft speed, >current speed and direction and course steared. In my day it was a computer >the size of a refrigerator. I'm sure it is much smaller now. I think I have misunderstood it when they said they had to come to the surface for recalibration, indeed a few antennas will do as well. Timothy From popserver Thu Feb 1 23:41:11 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["892" "Fri" "2" "February" "1996" "00:17:40" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "27" "Wrong person?" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id PAA26363 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 15:17:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA15300 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:17:28 +0100 Message-Id: <199602012317.AA15300@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Wrong person? Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 00:17:40 +0100 Kevin, you wrote this: >P.S. to Timothy, tell the BBC that We'd love to talk with them. I for >one would have no problem doing an interview. :) I'm not sure if you are adressing the right person, it was David who wrote that message. David wrote: >Hey, all, I've just been contacted by the BBC via email about >a television show they want to do this summer about >how science fiction becomes science fact. I'm not >sure they understand that LIT is a bunch of amateur >starship designers, and not actual professors or >anything. I'm not sure what to tell them. I've been >thinking about just explaining the situation to them, >explaining exactly what it is we're doing, and perhaps >giving them email addresses of good people to contact >whom I've met through LIT (like Zenon, if you'd want?)... David, is there a special reason you are addressing Zenon. (Just curious) Timothy From popserver Thu Feb 1 23:41:12 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["10629" "Fri" "2" "February" "1996" "00:17:33" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "243" "Re: Fwd: LIT e-mail discussion group" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id PAA26379 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 15:17:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA15291 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:17:18 +0100 Message-Id: <199602012317.AA15291@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Fwd: LIT e-mail discussion group Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 00:17:33 +0100 I had to think it over a while, but thanks for reminding: >One-way > * Suicide (explore and die before your time when supplies end) > * One-way (Enough supplies are shipped to stay in target system > until natural death) >>Pros >The ship need only be designed for a one time, one way flight. This limits >the technical mission risk and requires less resources. Actually there may be an equal or bigger amount of resources. That depends on if the crew needs to be larger and if more appliances are needed. If instead of 1E9 kg of fuel you could bring extra crew and appliances that would probably make a "colonalization" more probable to succeed. >Lower information return to Earth due to limited baud rates of interstellar >communication. Assuming we are able to create 1E18 Watts I think that bandwidth is minor problem. ============================================================================== >Round trip (Crew returns to Earth with ship at mission end.) > >>Pros >Simplest option, and one with little likely hood of public objection. I'm not sure what you mean with simplest, I think only the part after the comma is true. >It obviously avoids the grisly public relations and crew morale problems of >a one way mission. Seems to me that you use this twice as a pro in this mission. >>cons >Technically more challenging. Getting a ship to the target starsystem is >hard enough. Getting it back would make it harder. But this must be >traded off against the added complexity of a ship capable of supporting its >crew for the rest of their lives. Indeed, but if we are not able to build a small colony during a one-way mission than the chances are small that we are able to build a complete power array for a two-way mission. So this means that all power for the return mission has to come Earth. ============================================================================== >Pick up and return by follow on flight >>cons >High risk and more complicated. Multiple ship types, and concerns that the >first ship might be left stranded. Also politically less preferable, because the project will take longer and probably twice the effort. ============================================================================== >Crew constructs equipment for return flight >This option come up with light/microwave sail craft, beamed power craft, >and fuel launcher craft. The crew would construct automated duplicates of >the systems that launched the ship from Sol space. > >>Pros >Would establish launcher facilities in both star systems. Which could >allowing faster two way flights with specialized fast light ships. This assumes that either people stay behind to control and repair the launcher or that we have AI that is smart enough to keep the thing working perfectly. !! This is something we have not discussed before as far as I know !! >The crew might get back faster with their ship using the constructed >launcher systems for assistance. >cons >If they can't build the equipment, they don't get home. > >The construction phase may require so many resources that the first flight >is devoted just to infrastructure construction. With little or no >exploration being done in the first mission. This obviously would cool >public interest and slow down the return of productive information. Again, if we are not able to build a small colony during a one-way mission than the chances are small that we are able to build a complete power array for a two-way mission. So this means that all power for the return mission has to come Earth. Although a power-array may require less different parts than a colony, the size it much bigger and it uses the same type of machinery that is required to build a colony. Another con is that less time is available for research, unless robots are a possibility. ============================================================================== >Multi-step. (Ship proceeds to other target star after completion of first >mission, in first starsystem.) > >>cons >Technical feasibility is low since wear and tear on the ship would >accumulate, dramatically increasing the likelihood of a catastrophic >failure. > >Because of the extremely long flight times with likely technology, the >mission would take so long as to be undesirable. At some point the ship >would be superseded by newer faster ships sent straight out from earth, >decades after its launch. Not even undesirable long, but probably too long. Also the conditions should be the same as a one-way mission and it needs much more energy ============================================================================== >Multi-generation Succeeding generations of crew continue the mission > >>Cons >The follow on generation(s) in the ship will have no allegiance or >commitment to the mission or its originators (they, never agreed to >anything). When children grow up in a certain environment, they may like it there. So it may be very likely that they will continue the mission. >The follow on generations would have no hands-on experience with the >exploration systems they would be expected to use. Or for that matter, any >experience with planets and starsystems. The could be trained just like the initial crew was, the ships computers will have a large amount of knowledge and learning tools. > technical political Desirability > Risk Feasibility risk Feasibility >------------------------------------------------------------- >One-way med-low Medium Ex-high Nil Low >Round trip medium medium low High high >Pick-up Med-high medium medium medium medium >Construct ret high med-high medium medium medium >Multi-step Ex-High. med-low low Medium medium >Multi-gen Ex-high Low high medium low >Hibernation high Low medium medium low The feasability of a round trip probably depends on the creation of a power source at TC. I think that if that power source can be created, a colony for a one-way mission can be build also. That makes the political feasability much higher. Maybe even higher than a two way mission. I would find it more exciting to know there people building on a new civilazation than on a back and forth mission. If the colony could prosper its (political & scientific) value is much higher than a two way mission. Multi-step, Multi-gen and hibernation ships all have the same condition(=a working ship for >40 years) as a one-way mission so I think they should have the same political feasability. The difference between constrution-return and round-trip are not clear since we haven't defined how(=what energy source) the round-trip makes its return. So its not clear how the differences in feasability are explained. ============================================================================= >Mission purpose >--------------------------------- >Colonization of planets or moons >Isolation from resources. Ores, energy and raw materials are far harder to >access on a planet than in space. If the death-trap could be overcome be medical care, it may be more pleasant to live on a new (fresh) planet than in a space station. ============================================================================= >propulsion systems >--------------------------------- >Fusion feed from internal fuel sources. >Staged fusion ship I think you shouldn't look at staging the "classical" way. Why not add hundreds of the same kind of engines and throw them away when not needed any more. Making many engines of the same type is probably cheaper than a few that differ in size. Another advantage is that when one becomes defect it's not a big deal (unless it is an error that each engine has). In fact this is just a ship with say 1000 stages. A problem with staging is that you throw away your ship, this makes a two-way mission much harder! >Anti-matter >Can be destroyed to create tremendous amounts of energy. Releases over a >hundred times as much power per pound of fuel as a fusion reaction. > >Unfortunately, though it releases more power, this power is harder to >directly use to power the ship. This is not certain, the ideas I stated some time ago are only a few and were considered as most preferred though less easy methods. There does not have to be a real difference between a fusion or an anti-matter powered ship. Both can be used as heat-energy sources to accelerate reaction mass. >It is however far more dangerous to >handle. If we could synthesize the thousands of tons of antimatter this >would take. It would have the potential of exploding with a force of >hundreds of millions of H-bombs. This explosion can only happen if there is an equal amount of matter nearby. I think it may be possible to keep the anti-matter far enough away (in a large torus for example) Of course even when a minor amount of anti-matter is "spilled" the ship is likely not to reach its final goal (but does not have to explode). So while your argument is not completly right, the idea is. But of course when a major engine of the ship stops working indefinately this may also be the case. >Future tech > >The engineering and science we have now and assume we will have in the >future will change. Fusion, fission, relativity, quantum mechanics, and a >host of other basics of current physics; all were discovered within the >last hundred years. We can conservatively expect physics to have changed >far more in the next hundred years, then it did in the last hundred years. >What technologies that age will have on hand are impossible to guess. They >could have matter conversion, hyperlight drives, new understandings of >inertia and kinetic energy, or all those and far more. Any of these would >dramatically effect our ability to travel between the stars. So even >though we can't come up with any practical ideas for exploring the stars >now, we can be sure our descendants will find it far easier than we >imagine. FTL is a principle that has been withstanding many experiments to unprove it. Chances are small that FTL will become possible in the next century (if at all). ========================================================================== A possible disavantage for a two way trip is that the crew has to live a long time in a ship. If it is a disadvantage depends on the size of the ship, if this is a disadvantage for a one way mission depends on the possibility to extend the ship when at TC. Timothy From popserver Fri Feb 2 05:12:28 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3246" "Fri" "2" "February" "1996" "00:08:28" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "72" "Re: Recycling/AI and super human computers" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com (emout06.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.43]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id VAA23632 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 21:08:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA17063; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:08:28 -0500 Message-ID: <960202000827_212110281@emout06.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Recycling/AI and super human computers Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:08:28 -0500 >???!! TV's have changed dramatically in the last thirty years. Not the >picture format, which is fixed by law, but the image clarity and relyability >is far better. That of course ignores the fact that current TV's are about >to be phased out for digital HDTV's (at least in the states). >> Yes, but untill HDTV (which is more or less the logical >> step to digital multi media and communication) these >> improvements are not so big that every living soul >> (overstatement) wants to buy a new television. What I was going for was that the TV's them selves have changed dramatically without HDTV. These changes in image quality and relyability were enough that everyone went out to get a new set. I wounder if the internet will wind up becoming part international cable television? >Virtually all major feilds from industrial architecture, computers, >industrial manufacture, chemistry, aviation, farming, have all seen dramatic >improvements. Theses improvements don't always do something obvious, but >they are there. >> But are these advancements accelerations or just steady growth? Acceleration. Most industries talk about the double time of the knowledge base of their field. Thats an exponential growth curve. >> Rethinking it, I come to the conclusion that as soon as AI >> has an IQ of 80 it will only take a few years to reach 180. Less than that. Computer systems have maintained a 100 fold improvement in performance per decade for over half a century. Hard to tell how A.I. would fit into that. We might make a breakthrough (like in my book) and have everything fall into place in months, or we might stumble along for decades. >As for us and super intelegent AI's. Eiather we'll find something to do >together (or co-evolve), or they will move on and ignore us. (We can hardly >expect them to take care of us forever.) >> Maybe we should make them just smart enough to do >> the dirty jobs. And use only a few with IQ 1000 to think. ;) You can't hide forever. Best to come out a deal with things as theyt happen, not try to lock yourself into a safe past. >The biggest computer I know of personally is a 4-5 tera byte (E12 byte >system) being constructed in my old neighborhood in Reston Virgina for the >phone companies cable TV experement. The Cray corporation is building a 9 >teraflop system for the US government DARPA research agency (completion >scheduled for 1998), and their competitor (thinking machines) is offering a 2 >teraflop system comercially for $100 million. >> Yes, I found some info about another CRAY having max 1.2 TFLOPS. Ok, so we have the electronic brains. Now for the minds! >So we already are building systems bigger and more powerfull than the human >brain, we just don't really know how to make them think. True intelegence >may require custom circutry. But that circutry could be built in a way >similar to the current circuts. If of course it does need couston circuts, >which is hotly debated. > Custom circuis are is less efficient to do highly parallel computing than > neural-circuits. --- I was refering to neural net circuts. We alread know how to make them to the same consentration as standard circuts, but so far they arn't as usfull. Kelly From popserver Fri Feb 2 05:12:31 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6409" "Fri" "2" "February" "1996" "00:08:44" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "164" "Re: Hands and brains" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id VAA23649 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 21:09:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA26826; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:08:44 -0500 Message-ID: <960202000842_212110478@mail04.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Hands and brains Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:08:44 -0500 To: Timothy van der Linden) > To Kelly: > > >Yeah, Its assumed that you need a minimum size to have enough cells, for > >enough interconnections, to get a complex enough brain; But you also need a > >big enough brain to body ration so the brain has enough excess power to spare > >on complexity. > > But why do elephants have such big brains (3 to 4 times larger than humans)? They need the nuerons to run their big bodies, which are dozens of times humans. > >Automation allows a few skilled people to do the work of a larger number of > >people without automation. It does not allow the automation system to work > >by itself without people. As long as their are people to fix and operate it, > >automate systems will work well and productivly. Which is why all large > >manufacturing industries use them. > > But that means that much less people can do the job Yes. > >> Forget the predictions, it is proven than several gasses like CO2 and SO2 > >> have very well insulating properties. So the fact that these gasses are > >> present in abundance on Venus means that a greenhouse-effect is > >> responsable for the high temperature. > > > >No it doesn't, it just meen their are insulating gases in the air. It > >doesn't even tell you if they are keeping heat in, or out. > > It's keeping the heat in: Greenhouse gasses are more opaque planetary > radiation than for solar radiation. Solar radiation is what directly comes > from the Sun and planetary radiation is I know the theory, I also know their is no data to support it. > As for the debacle about Earth's greenhouse effect, there are only doubts > about the quantity of the temperature increase caused by the greenhouse > gasses. Also it is argued if the greenhouse gasses are the only reason for > temperature increase. It is also argued if the earth is getting warmer or cooler. NASA went back over 25-30 years of satelihgt scans. They could have detected a change as small as 1/5th the smallest variation predicted by any of the green house theories. They didn't find it. Longer term arcio-climatology studies have shown a cooling since the mid 1800, a warming from the 1700, and a long term cooling over the last 800 years. > >> Yes, but that is because Earth has a biosphere. If Earth had to do without > >> that and it would be moved to the place of Venus, then is would heat up and > >> once the greenhouse-effect took over there wouldn't be a way back. > > > >No, earth biosphere trims its temperature a bit, but not by hundreds of > >degrees! If that were true Earth would have been unable to ever evolve life. > > To that I agree, but as long the greenhouse effect is not too large the > temperatures will not become so high that no live can exist. At the > light-side of the moon you will freeze to death (assuming you weren't > choking first) this is because there are no gasses to keep the heat in. The > only heat there is radiative heat. How do you freeze to death at 200 degrees F? Trust me, freezing wasn't a problem on the moon in full sunlight. > >>>In a world without photosyntisis the non-oxegen forms could still > >>>dominate. > >> > >> How? If they used chemicals for their energy, then the supply of those > >> chemicals better be almost infinite. Most of the chemicals that organisms > >> use these days are recycled by using photosyntesis. Only a small fraction > >>of chemicals is freed by vulcanos, hardly enough to sustain a group of > >>lifeforms. > > > >Depends on the planets and its chemistry. > > I think that if chemicals are not recycled any amount is used up in a > relative short period. (If water and carbondioxide where not recycled by > plants, animal (non photosynthesis) live would very soon die away). But the chemicals are being recycled by the planetary geo-processes, and they have sustained their local populations for a very long time. > >> No, we were apes before we had big brains, and apes are not preditors. > > > >We evolved from chimps, which are predators. (Unlike Gorillas.) Those > >chimps evolved (after some odd twists) into plains preditors and scavengers. > > I've never heard that before, so I'm not certain. > > >We developed that (and primative tool making), before our brains expanded > >much. > > I've seen a TV-series (again :) ) that tried to explain that the human brain > expanded as soon as it began standing up. The reason for that was the > temperature difference between 0.8 metre (on 4 legs) and 1.5 metres (on 2 > legs) above the ground. ------- > One question remains however, why didn't they get a bigger brain while in > the forest before the mountain ridge appeared? Or why didn'tproto apes in cooler climates develop it. Besides, humans are warm blooded. They keep thie brain tissue withing a fraction of a degree of temp. > >> Indeed, most of our brain isn't devoted to anything as far as we know. -- > > > >Actually we do know what all the centers of the brain do, just not how they > >do it. > > Why have I heard so many times that 90% of the brain (or did they mean the > cerebrum) is unused? Thats one of those old saying that have been around forever. Like the idea that aerodynamics says a bee can't fly. Untrue, but so memorable that everyone keeps saying it. > >> --- I > >> meant that a large part is devoted to what you can do with your hands. > >> Suppose you have a large brain, but no hands/legs to make use of it. There > >> would not be any advantage then to have a bigger brain, so it would not > >>evolve. > > > >The biggest section of the human brain evolved to use the eyes, not hands. > > Niether are used in itelegence, that evolved separatly. > > Yes, I'm slowly seeing that size is not the most important factor and that > the largest part of the brain was and is already available. Could it be that > the use of hands and its applications involved a completely new way of > neuron interconnection which had intelligence as convenient side product? > > If I'm not right about this hands->brain connection, then why did we get a > bigger brain? Humans have an odd brain hand trick we retained since we were tree dwelers. It makes certain types of eye hand coordination easier (real important when your jumping for a branch) but humans brains developed long after our bodies and hands were developed. Why did humans develop such powefull minds? Thats a hotly debateed question. Kelly From popserver Fri Feb 2 05:12:34 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["1185" "Fri" "2" "February" "1996" "00:08:56" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" "<960202000855_212111139@emout09.mail.aol.com>" "23" "Re: I found the food numbers!" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com ([198.81.11.24]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id VAA23663 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 21:09:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA09911; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:08:56 -0500 Message-ID: <960202000855_212111139@emout09.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: I found the food numbers! Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:08:56 -0500 to Timothy van der Linden > Now we found that rations for field troops or explorers weighed about 2.2 >kilos per day (.8 tons per year) and dehydrated could be a lot less. But >over all; 36 tons per person is about 21 years of food mass at their 1.67 >tons per year, or 45 food years at our .8 tons per year. I'm not even >going to bother with freeze dried numbers. We won't want to be out that >long! Even if you assume no soil. The mass is still 14 tons per person. >Which comes to 8.38 year of 1.67 tons per year food years, or 17.5 years at >our .8 tons per year. Then I realized that the farm design required >doubling the internal volume of the hab centrifuge. Which would add another >20 to 230 tons per person! (the latter if you shielded the farm >centrifuge.) >> Would stored food need no protection against radiation? I'm not sure how much and if the food would become radioactive. But if it does, it may need shielding too. << No. Food would only become radioactive if radioactive particals were mixed in with it. Xrays and stuff would cause no perminent change. Thou it would keep longer. Its actually been tested as a food preservative, and works. Kelly From popserver Fri Feb 2 05:17:38 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["411" "Fri" "2" "February" "1996" "00:09:28" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "12" "Re: I found the food numbers!" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com ([198.81.11.22]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id VAA23736 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 21:10:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA20322; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:09:28 -0500 Message-ID: <960202000928_212111292@emout07.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: rddesign@wolfenet.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Subject: Re: I found the food numbers! Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:09:28 -0500 >> Reply to Kelly >> If we dump our "waste" into the fuel hopper we lose all >> that water that we are going to need unless you plan to >> squeeze all the water out first. I'm not adverse to >> putting unusable waste into the "fuel chain" for the >> ship but lets be sure we don't need it for other >> reasons first, please. Well we could dehydrate it first. Its not like were short of power. ;) Kelly From popserver Fri Feb 2 05:17:39 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1274" "Fri" "2" "February" "1996" "00:09:13" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "33" "Re: Hands and brains" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id VAA23794 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 21:11:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA07296; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:09:13 -0500 Message-ID: <960202000912_212110953@mail02.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: David@interworld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl cc: stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Hands and brains Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:09:13 -0500 Sounds interesting. Keep us informed, and don't hog the glory. ;) Subj: Re: Hands and brains Date: Wed, Jan 31, 1996 9:27 AM EST From: David@interworld.com X-From: David@interworld.com (David Levine) To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) CC: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu Timothy van der Linden wrote: > > To David: > >While social and intelligent > >animals, they're certainly not more intelligent than human > >beings. Perhaps the absolute size of a certain section > >of the brain? Like the cerebellum? > > I think you mean cerebrum (the large brains). Yup, thanks. Hey, all, I've just been contacted by the BBC via email about a television show they want to do this summer about how science fiction becomes science fact. I'm not sure they understand that LIT is a bunch of amateur starship designers, and not actual professors or anything. I'm not sure what to tell them. I've been thinking about just explaining the situation to them, explaining exactly what it is we're doing, and perhaps giving them email addresses of good people to contact whom I've met through LIT (like Zenon, if you'd want?)... From popserver Fri Feb 2 05:53:22 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1414" "Thu" "1" "February" "1996" "21:47:26" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "30" "Re: I found the food numbers!" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: stevev@tzadkiel.efn.org Received: from tzadkiel.efn.org (stevev@tzadkiel.efn.org [198.68.17.19]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id VAA26184; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 21:45:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from stevev@localhost) by tzadkiel.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA03256; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 21:47:26 -0800 Message-Id: <199602020547.VAA03256@tzadkiel.efn.org> In-Reply-To: <960202000855_212111139@emout09.mail.aol.com> References: <960202000855_212111139@emout09.mail.aol.com> From: Steve VanDevender To: KellySt@aol.com Cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: I found the food numbers! Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 21:47:26 -0800 KellySt@aol.com writes: > >> Would stored food need no protection against radiation? I'm not sure how > much and if the food would become radioactive. But if it does, it may need > shielding too. << > > No. Food would only become radioactive if radioactive particals were mixed in > with it. Xrays and stuff would cause no perminent change. Thou it would > keep longer. Its actually been tested as a food preservative, and works. The real answer depends on what kind and what level of radiation the food is exposed to. Alpha particles (helium nuclei) and beta particles (electrons) are unlikely to do any damage to the food, as they will be stopped by the packaging. Energetic ultraviolet and X-rays may ionize atoms in the stored food and produce undesirable chemical changes with high exposure, but won't make the food radioactive. Neutrons or gamma rays could make the food radioactive by interacting with the nuclei of atoms in the food; neutrons can be captured by nuclei to produce radioactive isotopes or transmutation, and gamma rays can induce fission of nuclei. Both types of radiation are likely products of fusion or antimatter reactions. Neutron shielding in fusion reactors is actually a pretty significant problem, as the shielding itself tends to become radioactive. Any high quantity of radiation of the latter two classes is likely to cause degradation of the food over time. From popserver Fri Feb 2 14:45:19 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["601" "Fri" "2" "February" "1996" "07:23:59" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "20" "Re: Hands and brains" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: David@interworld.com Received: from www.interworld.com (interworld.com [165.254.130.4]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id EAA12955 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 04:23:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from hal ([165.254.130.90]) by www.interworld.com (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 0-11464) with SMTP id AAA352; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 07:27:44 -0500 Message-ID: <3112025F.3606@interworld.com> Organization: InterWorld, Really Cool Stuff Division X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0b5 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <960202000842_212110478@mail04.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David@interworld.com (David Levine) To: KellySt@aol.com CC: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Hands and brains Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 07:23:59 -0500 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > > To: Timothy van der Linden) > > > > But why do elephants have such big brains (3 to 4 times larger than > humans)? > > They need the nuerons to run their big bodies, which are dozens of times > humans. But what about dinosaurs, small-brained creatures, many of whom had bodies much larger than elephants? I think I've read somewhere that a large portion of their nervous system was distributed... i.e., their spinal cord handled more functions than ours does. So why do elephants have a large brain instead of a distributed nervous system, more like a dinosaurs? David From popserver Fri Feb 2 14:45:19 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil nil] ["601" "Fri" "2" "February" "1996" "07:23:59" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "20" "Re: Hands and brains" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: David@interworld.com Received: from www.interworld.com (interworld.com [165.254.130.4]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id EAA12955 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 04:23:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from hal ([165.254.130.90]) by www.interworld.com (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 0-11464) with SMTP id AAA352; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 07:27:44 -0500 Message-ID: <3112025F.3606@interworld.com> Organization: InterWorld, Really Cool Stuff Division X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0b5 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <960202000842_212110478@mail04.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David@interworld.com (David Levine) To: KellySt@aol.com CC: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Hands and brains Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 07:23:59 -0500 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > > To: Timothy van der Linden) > > > > But why do elephants have such big brains (3 to 4 times larger than > humans)? > > They need the nuerons to run their big bodies, which are dozens of times > humans. But what about dinosaurs, small-brained creatures, many of whom had bodies much larger than elephants? I think I've read somewhere that a large portion of their nervous system was distributed... i.e., their spinal cord handled more functions than ours does. So why do elephants have a large brain instead of a distributed nervous system, more like a dinosaurs? David From popserver Fri Feb 2 14:45:28 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil nil] ["268" "Fri" "2" "February" "1996" "14:00:15" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "10" "Re: Wrong person?" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id FAA16388 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 05:45:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA28143 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:00:00 +0100 Message-Id: <199602021300.AA28143@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Wrong person? Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 14:00:15 +0100 >>>whom I've met through LIT (like Zenon, if you'd want?)... >> >> David, is there a special reason you are addressing Zenon. (Just curious) > >I was under the impression Zenon held a PhD in physics? >Incorrect assumption? Ah, my then assumption was right. Timothy From popserver Fri Feb 2 14:45:29 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil nil] ["2366" "Fri" "2" "February" "1996" "14:00:19" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "50" "Re: I found the food numbers!" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id FAA16427 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 05:45:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA28227 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:00:08 +0100 Message-Id: <199602021300.AA28227@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: I found the food numbers! Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 14:00:19 +0100 Steve writes: >KellySt@aol.com writes: >> >> Would stored food need no protection against radiation? I'm not sure how >> much and if the food would become radioactive. But if it does, it may need >> shielding too. << >> >> No. Food would only become radioactive if radioactive particals were mixed in >> with it. Xrays and stuff would cause no perminent change. Thou it would >> keep longer. Its actually been tested as a food preservative, and works. > >The real answer depends on what kind and what level of radiation the >food is exposed to. > >Alpha particles (helium nuclei) and beta particles (electrons) are >unlikely to do any damage to the food, as they will be stopped by the >packaging. > >Energetic ultraviolet and X-rays may ionize atoms in the stored food and >produce undesirable chemical changes with high exposure, but won't make >the food radioactive. > >Neutrons or gamma rays could make the food radioactive by interacting >with the nuclei of atoms in the food; neutrons can be captured by nuclei >to produce radioactive isotopes or transmutation, and gamma rays can >induce fission of nuclei. Both types of radiation are likely products >of fusion or antimatter reactions. Neutron shielding in fusion reactors >is actually a pretty significant problem, as the shielding itself tends >to become radioactive. > >Any high quantity of radiation of the latter two classes is likely to >cause degradation of the food over time. Steve thanks for explaining it so clearly, it was indeed the latter that I had in mind. A few years ago I had to do a physics-experiment with small silver-discs. When placed near a radioactive (I think) cesium source they became radioactive too. The specific decay of that silver was rather fast (that was why we used it) so one had to bring it straight from the vault to the experiment, every second counted (because we wanted to determine its decay curve). Of course shortlived radiotopes may not be the main problem, but I'm quite certain that in the forest of possible isotopes one or two will give us a hard time when the food is stored without shielding. As far as I know there are laws for the maximum limits for food radiating levels used to preserve food. I'm not sure though what the reason is. (It could be that it is a precaution for people who have bad food and want to keep it looking OK) Timothy From popserver Fri Feb 2 14:45:31 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3804" "Fri" "2" "February" "1996" "14:00:29" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "79" "Re: Recycling/AI and super human computers" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id FAA16528 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 05:46:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA28334 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:00:18 +0100 Message-Id: <199602021300.AA28334@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Recycling/AI and super human computers Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 14:00:29 +0100 >What I was going for was that the TV's them selves have changed dramatically >without HDTV. These changes in image quality and relyability were enough >that everyone went out to get a new set. I'm not so sure about that, a lot of people only buy a television because their old one breaks down and the repair cost are almost as high as a new TV-set. Only things like remote control or the number of programmable channels are features that may tempt people to buy a new set while their old one is still working. >I wounder if the internet will wind up becoming part international cable >television? As far as I know all dataflow will be incorporated into a "single" network (eg. ISDN). The communication-protocol is the important thing her, the physical form of the network just has to assure that enough bandwidth is available. So it's more the other way around, cable-tv is becoming part of internet. However it may look the otherway around since cable-companies will become providers of internet. What I mean is that internet already is a multi-purpose network, it can be used for text, images, audio, movies. The thing that people are working at today is to get a protocal that has two parts: a steady-stream fixed bandwith and a burst-stream non-fixed bandwith. The first will can be used for live audio and video while the latter can be used for email, ftp or normal internet use. >Less than that. Computer systems have maintained a 100 fold improvement in >performance per decade for over half a century. Hard to tell how A.I. would >fit into that. We might make a breakthrough (like in my book) and have >everything fall into place in months, or we might stumble along for decades. I go for the few months... >>> Maybe we should make them just smart enough to do >>> the dirty jobs. And use only a few with IQ 1000 to think. > >;) You can't hide forever. Best to come out a deal with things as theyt >happen, not try to lock yourself into a safe past. It's not lock yourself, it's protecting yourself. It's like saying, why not do any kind of genetic experiment, you can't stop it anyway. Of course smart computers are not necessary dangerous, maybe they LIKE to help us out. If they are convinced that we are not just annoying bugs, then the problem may not be that worse. >>> Yes, I found some info about another CRAY having max 1.2 TFLOPS. > >Ok, so we have the electronic brains. Now for the minds! As soon as the structure of the brain and its input is ready the mind will follow automatically. The input is something that a lot of people forget. I think for any brain to start working, the input should be sufficiently high. And if we want a computer that is least likely to kill us and most likely to understand us, we should make its senses similar to ours. I think there is another possibility to control the AI, we let it "live" in a virtual reality, which is created by us. So every action the AI undertakes will not be a real one (so no harm to us), but since we can control it's input it may never know that it is not real. In fact, we don't know that we are real. Of course this depends on what one calls real. For most of us everything that we can measure is real, but there is that stuff where dreams are made of, why not call that real too? In short we are not able to figure out if there is some smart superhuman that is controlling our senses. How can you be sure that you are not in a never ending dream, creating everything and everyone all by yourself? >> Custom circuis are is less efficient to do highly parallel computing than >> neural-circuits. --- > >I was refering to neural net circuts. We alread know how to make them to the >same consentration as standard circuts, but so far they arn't as usfull. Not as useful as we would like... Timothy From popserver Fri Feb 2 14:45:54 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1721" "Fri" "2" "February" "1996" "09:26:09" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.magec.com" nil "44" "Super computers" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: kgstar@most.magec.com Received: from most.magec.com (gw1.magec.com [151.168.2.3]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id GAA18941 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 06:29:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by most.magec.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20315; Fri, 2 Feb 96 09:30:38 EST Received: from unknown(151.168.254.82) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI020130; Fri Feb 2 09:27:19 1996 Received: by most (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06958; Fri, 2 Feb 96 09:27:16 EST Received: from ss4.magec.com(151.168.145.199) by most via smap (V1.5khhunt) id sma006939; Fri Feb 2 09:26:10 1996 Received: from [151.168.146.187] (kgstar) by ss4.uiv (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA22125; Fri, 2 Feb 96 09:26:07 EST X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: kgstar@most.magec.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) To: Kevin C Houston Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 , Steve VanDevender , KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu, David@interworld.com Subject: Super computers Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:26:09 -0500 A tid bit that was forwarded to me. Kelly > > Intel has recently been commissioned to build a teraflops machine. A > teraflop is one trillion floating-point operations per second. In the > passage above Moravec is talking about `10 teraops' which refers to > trillions of `operations' per second. Moravec's notion of an operation is > somewhat complicated. He speaks of `50 bits of surprise for each operation'. > The Intel machine will use more than 9000 Pentium Pro microprocessors > connected in a `two-and-a-half dimensional' mesh. The machine would achieve > roughly one tenth of the benchmark machine Moravec suggests - if he thinks > its operations are flexible enough. > > The URLs http://www.ssd.intel.com/success/hpcwire1.html and > http://www.ssd.intel.com/tflop.html present some background information from > Intel on the teraflops machine project. > > Beyond a teraflop machine (10^12 floating point operations per second) there > is a petaflop machine (10^15 floating point operations per second). There > is a page about `Petaflops Computing' in Wired, February 1996, on page 64. > The URL http://cesdis.gsfc.nasa.gov/petaflops/peta.html has some information > and pointers. > > Of course, even if Moravec is right one must still come up with the right > computer architecture and then one must figure out how to program it (or > figure out how to get it to program itself.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Sr. Systems Engineer Magnavox Electronic Systems Company (Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From popserver Fri Feb 2 14:45:56 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["16508" "Fri" "2" "February" "1996" "09:23:41" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.magec.com" nil "372" "Re: Summary" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: kgstar@most.magec.com Received: from most.magec.com (gw1.magec.com [151.168.2.3]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id GAA19003 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 06:30:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by most.magec.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20332; Fri, 2 Feb 96 09:30:58 EST Received: from unknown(151.168.254.82) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI019968; Fri Feb 2 09:24:58 1996 Received: by most (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06907; Fri, 2 Feb 96 09:24:56 EST Received: from ss4.magec.com(151.168.145.199) by most via smap (V1.5khhunt) id sma006882; Fri Feb 2 09:23:42 1996 Received: from [151.168.146.187] (kgstar) by ss4.uiv (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA21967; Fri, 2 Feb 96 09:23:39 EST X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: kgstar@most.magec.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) To: KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Summary Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:23:41 -0500 At 12:09 AM 2/2/96, KellySt@aol.com wrote: >--------------------- >From: (Timothy van der Linden) >I had to think it over a while, but thanks for reminding: > >>One-way >> * Suicide (explore and die before your time when supplies end) >> * One-way (Enough supplies are shipped to stay in target system > >until natural death) >>>Pros >>The ship need only be designed for a one time, one way flight. This limits >>the technical mission risk and requires less resources. > >Actually there may be an equal or bigger amount of resources. That depends >on if the crew needs to be larger and if more appliances are needed. >If instead of 1E9 kg of fuel you could bring extra crew and appliances that >would probably make a "colonalization" more probable to succeed. Colonization is infeasable anyway without fantastic reserves of people and material. It would take a lot less to return home. >>Lower information return to Earth due to limited baud rates of interstellar >>communication. > >Assuming we are able to create 1E18 Watts I think that bandwidth is minor >problem. Power gets you range, not bandwidth. Since you only have the ability to use the avalible spectrum once. I do worry about bandwidth. >============================================================================== > > >>Round trip (Crew returns to Earth with ship at mission end.) >> >>>Pros >>Simplest option, and one with little likely hood of public objection. > >I'm not sure what you mean with simplest, I think only the part after the >comma is true. Since the flight would be of a definate, ship survivable, length. You wouldn't have as much technical problem with equiping it to survive the crews life span. You wouldn't have to design the systems to function with a declining and incapacitated crew. You only have to make the life suport systems good enough to last 20-40 years with a capable crew. >>It obviously avoids the grisly public relations and crew morale problems of >>a one way mission. > >Seems to me that you use this twice as a pro in this mission. I ment then to cover differnt things, but I suppose it is redundant. >>>cons >>Technically more challenging. Getting a ship to the target starsystem is >>hard enough. Getting it back would make it harder. But this must be >>traded off against the added complexity of a ship capable of supporting its >>crew for the rest of their lives. > >Indeed, but if we are not able to build a small colony during a one-way >mission than the chances are small that we are able to build a complete >power array for a two-way mission. So this means that all power for the >return mission has to come Earth. No, that would only be true if you asumed a beamed power ship, which I don't. Besides, if you do have a beamed power system that can power the ship all the way into another star system (which seems questionable), useing that system again to get the ship out wouldn't add any complexity. Upgrading all the ship systems for an indefinate stay would add complexity. Note that I'm assuming that the flight would have enough resources to support the crew for most of their projected life expectancy. Obviously this wouldn't be a factor in a flight where the crew is expected to kill themselves at the end of the mission >============================================================================== > > >>Pick up and return by follow on flight > >>>cons >>High risk and more complicated. Multiple ship types, and concerns that the >>first ship might be left stranded. > >Also politically less preferable, because the project will take longer and >probably twice the effort. Thats a possibility. It certianly would be politically less likely to be funded allong its entire history. But given that expenses would be spread out over a longer time it might cost less over a given period of time. I'm surprized you objected to this section thou, since its the only option (i.e. assured routine supply flight) that woulkd allow a colony mission? >============================================================================== > > >>Crew constructs equipment for return flight >>This option come up with light/microwave sail craft, beamed power craft, >>and fuel launcher craft. The crew would construct automated duplicates of >>the systems that launched the ship from Sol space. >> >>>Pros >>Would establish launcher facilities in both star systems. Which could >>allowing faster two way flights with specialized fast light ships. > >This assumes that either people stay behind to control and repair the >launcher or that we have AI that is smart enough to keep the thing working >perfectly. >!! This is something we have not discussed before as far as I know !! Sure we have. Months ago. >>The crew might get back faster with their ship using the constructed >>launcher systems for assistance. > >>cons >>If they can't build the equipment, they don't get home. >> >>The construction phase may require so many resources that the first flight >>is devoted just to infrastructure construction. With little or no >>exploration being done in the first mission. This obviously would cool >>public interest and slow down the return of productive information. > >Again, if we are not able to build a small colony during a one-way mission >than the chances are small that we are able to build a complete power array >for a two-way mission. So this means that all power for the return mission >has to come Earth. >Although a power-array may require less different parts than a colony, the >size it much bigger and it uses the same type of machinery that is required >to build a colony. It wouldn't take the same equipment as a colony, nor would it nessisarily be a power array. >Another con is that less time is available for research, unless robots are a >possibility. ?? I said that in that statement? >============================================================================== > > >>Multi-step. (Ship proceeds to other target star after completion of first >>mission, in first starsystem.) >> >>>cons >>Technical feasibility is low since wear and tear on the ship would >>accumulate, dramatically increasing the likelihood of a catastrophic >>failure. >> >>Because of the extremely long flight times with likely technology, the >>mission would take so long as to be undesirable. At some point the ship >>would be superseded by newer faster ships sent straight out from earth, >>decades after its launch. > >Not even undesirable long, but probably too long. Also the conditions should >be the same as a one-way mission and it needs much more energy > >============================================================================== > > >>Multi-generation Succeeding generations of crew continue the mission >> >>>Cons >>The follow on generation(s) in the ship will have no allegiance or >>commitment to the mission or its originators (they, never agreed to >>anything). > >When children grow up in a certain environment, they may like it there. So >it may be very likely that they will continue the mission. There environment wont be that of explorers, but as ship crew. The mission, exploring and returning info to earth, would interfear with that. The history of utopian or riligious colonies in the U.S. suggestes that children and gradchildren don't followe int the focused extreams of the founders. >>The follow on generations would have no hands-on experience with the >>exploration systems they would be expected to use. Or for that matter, any >>experience with planets and starsystems. > >The could be trained just like the initial crew was, the ships computers >will have a large amount of knowledge and learning tools. No, the initial crew could be trained on earth and the solar system, by people who operated the systems in a real environment. That wouldn't be possible on the ship. Especially when the origional, experienced crew grew old and died. > > >> technical political Desirability >> Risk Feasibility risk Feasibility >>------------------------------------------------------------- >>One-way med-low Medium Ex-high Nil Low >>Round trip medium medium low High high >>Pick-up Med-high medium medium medium medium >>Construct ret high med-high medium medium medium >>Multi-step Ex-High. med-low low Medium medium >>Multi-gen Ex-high Low high medium low >>Hibernation high Low medium medium low > >The feasability of a round trip probably depends on the creation of a power >source at TC. I think that if that power source can be created, a colony for >a one-way mission can be build also. That makes the political feasability >much higher. Maybe even higher than a two way mission. I would find it more >exciting to know there people building on a new civilazation than on a back >and forth mission. If the colony could prosper its (political & scientific) >value is much higher than a two way mission. I disagree that a two way mission depends on a beamed power system, nor am I assuming were going to Tau Ceti. Given that we've been at this for over a year and a half and still havent figured out any way to get there, I'm not optimistic. Ignoring that I don't follow your assumption that it would make a one way mission more practical or feasable. A power system would only need to keep working for a few years until the ship gets to the drive cut off point. A self sustaining colony would need to keep working for generations, and require huge amounts of people. Even if a colony was buildable, that doesn't nessisarily make it politically feasable. Your still sending people out to a desolate area for no real proactical benifit (other than scientific, which doesn't require a colony). That would be a political problem. You would NOT be building a new civilization. Your at best seting up a minimally self maintaining base in a harsh and isolated environment. It would have neather the resources of personal or equipment to do much more than that. >Multi-step, Multi-gen and hibernation ships all have the same condition(=a >working ship for >40 years) as a one-way mission so I think they should have >the same political feasability. The difference in political terms, is that it would seem likely that a hibernation system would get the crew back alive (assuming everthing worked). The others condem them to die in space. >The difference between constrution-return and round-trip are not clear since >we haven't defined how(=what energy source) the round-trip makes its return. >So its not clear how the differences in feasability are explained. Rount trip could use a fusion powered ship that mines fuel in the system. Possibly with a fuel launcher construction option. >============================================================================= > >>Mission purpose >>--------------------------------- >>Colonization of planets or moons > >>Isolation from resources. Ores, energy and raw materials are far harder to >>access on a planet than in space. > >If the death-trap could be overcome be medical care, it may be more pleasant >to live on a new (fresh) planet than in a space station. Not likely. We have no reason to asume we'ld find any earth like planets in neighboring star systems. Especiall ones that are so earth like as to be comfortable. (I.E. an Earth like world that was no cooler or wetter than the Sahara or warmer than the antarctic in winter, would still be remarkable.) Certainly if you sticking to the L.I.T. Tau C. flight idea, by definition their were no even vaugly earth like worlds spotted there. >============================================================================= > >>propulsion systems >>--------------------------------- >>Fusion feed from internal fuel sources. >>Staged fusion ship > >I think you shouldn't look at staging the "classical" way. Why not add >hundreds of the same kind of engines and throw them away when not needed any >more. Making many engines of the same type is probably cheaper than a few >that differ in size. Another advantage is that when one becomes defect it's >not a big deal (unless it is an error that each engine has). > >In fact this is just a ship with say 1000 stages. That is "classical" staging? > >A problem with staging is that you throw away your ship, this makes a >two-way mission much harder! Agreed. >>Anti-matter >>Can be destroyed to create tremendous amounts of energy. Releases over a >>hundred times as much power per pound of fuel as a fusion reaction. >> >>Unfortunately, though it releases more power, this power is harder to >>directly use to power the ship. > >This is not certain, the ideas I stated some time ago are only a few and >were considered as most preferred though less easy methods. There does not >have to be a real difference between a fusion or an anti-matter powered >ship. Both can be used as heat-energy sources to accelerate reaction mass. True, but I wasn't expectin to use the fusion power to heat a rockets reation mass. That would threaten to melt the ship quickly. >>It is however far more dangerous to >>handle. If we could synthesize the thousands of tons of antimatter this >>would take. It would have the potential of exploding with a force of >>hundreds of millions of H-bombs. > >This explosion can only happen if there is an equal amount of matter nearby. >I think it may be possible to keep the anti-matter far enough away (in a >large torus for example) Of course even when a minor amount of anti-matter >is "spilled" the ship is likely not to reach its final goal (but does not >have to explode). So while your argument is not completly right, the idea >is. But of course when a major engine of the ship stops working indefinately >this may also be the case. The ship would be a nearby source of mass. A leak might not explode all the fuel in a intermix, but a tiny amount would still go off like a H-bomb. >>Future tech >> >>The engineering and science we have now and assume we will have in the >>future will change. Fusion, fission, relativity, quantum mechanics, and a >>host of other basics of current physics; all were discovered within the >>last hundred years. We can conservatively expect physics to have changed >>far more in the next hundred years, then it did in the last hundred years. >>What technologies that age will have on hand are impossible to guess. They >>could have matter conversion, hyperlight drives, new understandings of >>inertia and kinetic energy, or all those and far more. Any of these would >>dramatically effect our ability to travel between the stars. So even >>though we can't come up with any practical ideas for exploring the stars >>now, we can be sure our descendants will find it far easier than we >>imagine. > >FTL is a principle that has been withstanding many experiments to unprove >it. Chances are small that FTL will become possible in the next century (if >at all). Small but not impossible. It seems ftl is possible, but we know of no way to do it with any realistic physical system, much less a buildable one. But then we would have said that about space travel a couple of cventuries ago. It definatly requires some new physics (as opposed to engineering) tricks. Then again, without it star travel beyond the nearest stars will never be practical. >========================================================================== > >A possible disavantage for a two way trip is that the crew has to live a >long time in a ship. If it is a disadvantage depends on the size of the >ship, if this is a disadvantage for a one way mission depends on the >possibility to extend the ship when at TC. > >Timothy I don't follow that last bit. Presumably a one way flight could construct a larger space platform for living quarters. But if they could construct anything that extensive, they could build a way to get home. So presumably eiather way they are stuck in the ship. Just for a lot longer if they aren't coming home. Kelly ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Sr. Systems Engineer Magnavox Electronic Systems Company (Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From popserver Sat Feb 3 04:02:07 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["496" "Sat" "3" "February" "1996" "00:46:17" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "15" "Re: Hands and brains" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id PAA02099 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 15:45:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA15497 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 3 Feb 1996 00:46:05 +0100 Message-Id: <199602022346.AA15497@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Hands and brains Date: Sat, 03 Feb 1996 00:46:17 +0100 To David: >But what about dinosaurs, small-brained creatures, >many of whom had bodies much larger than elephants? >I think I've read somewhere that a large portion >of their nervous system was distributed... i.e., >their spinal cord handled more functions than ours >does. So why do elephants have a large brain >instead of a distributed nervous system, more >like a dinosaurs? Maybe they had a smaller brain because they were (coldblooded?) reptiles instead of warmblooded mammals. Timothy From popserver Sat Feb 3 04:02:19 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4641" "Sat" "3" "February" "1996" "00:46:08" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "108" "Re: Hands and brains" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id QAA04816 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 16:18:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA15488 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Sat, 3 Feb 1996 00:45:43 +0100 Message-Id: <199602022345.AA15488@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Hands and brains Date: Sat, 03 Feb 1996 00:46:08 +0100 To Kelly: >> But why do elephants have such big brains (3 to 4 times larger than >humans)? > >They need the nuerons to run their big bodies, which are dozens of times >humans. Are you sure or are you guessing? The story that David wrote, I had heard before. It was the reason why I thought (before I read otherwise) that an elephant (and a dolphin) had a small brain too. Looking at this after discussing it, a possible explanation may be that the brain-cells are much bigger. This may also be the case for dolphins. So when saying the absolute size, I should have said the number of neurons. I don't have any confirming data however. I'm going to search for some more data about this. >> >automate systems will work well and productivly. Which is why all large >> >manufacturing industries use them. >> >> But that means that much less people can do the job > >Yes. So if you go on a few centuries, only a few people have to work. This is where I was going to. >> It's keeping the heat in: Greenhouse gasses are more opaque planetary >> radiation than for solar radiation. Solar radiation is what directly comes >> from the Sun and planetary radiation is > >I know the theory, I also know their is no data to support it. Of course I don't have the hands on an experiment that proved it but I find it very hard to believe that no one has tried to figure out to what kind of radiation the so called greenhouse gasses are most opaque. This very simple experiment would show the proof or rebuttal. >It is also argued if the earth is getting warmer or cooler. NASA went back >over 25-30 years of satelihgt scans. They could have detected a change as >small as 1/5th the smallest variation predicted by any of the green house >theories. They didn't find it. Longer term arcio-climatology studies have >shown a cooling since the mid 1800, a warming from the 1700, and a long term >cooling over the last 800 years. Did these images show there was no temperature increase or did they show that there was no increase due to the so called greenhouse effect. If you mean the latter, how can they distinguish between normal and greenhouse deviations? >> To that I agree, but as long the greenhouse effect is not too large the >> temperatures will not become so high that no live can exist. At the >> light-side of the moon you will freeze to death (assuming you weren't >> choking first) this is because there are no gasses to keep the heat in. The >> only heat there is radiative heat. > >How do you freeze to death at 200 degrees F? Trust me, freezing wasn't a >problem on the moon in full sunlight. Yes, that is radiative heat, not convective. So everything that is in the shadow is much colder. I assume that if you where standing with your back to the Sun than your belly would freeze. >> I think that if chemicals are not recycled any amount is used up in a >> relative short period. (If water and carbondioxide where not recycled by >> plants, animal (non photosynthesis) live would very soon die away). > >But the chemicals are being recycled by the planetary geo-processes, and they >have sustained their local populations for a very long time. Yes, but the chances for evolution are not very big in a small (local) area where the climate is relatively stable. Higher evolutionized animals would not occur due to serious inbreading. >> I've seen a TV-series (again :) ) that tried to explain that the human >brain >> expanded as soon as it began standing up. The reason for that was the >> temperature difference between 0.8 metre (on 4 legs) and 1.5 metres (on 2 >> legs) above the ground. ------- >> One question remains however, why didn't they get a bigger brain while in >> the forest before the mountain ridge appeared? > >Or why didn'tproto apes in cooler climates develop it. Ah, I think I know, they had a live that was too easy, so there was no advantage of being smart. The apes on the rather dry and hot savannas had to do more for their food than just sitting on a branch. >Besides, humans are >warm blooded. They keep thie brain tissue withing a fraction of a degree of >temp. But it is much harder to cool in higher temperatures. >Humans have an odd brain hand trick we retained since we were tree dwelers. > It makes certain types of eye hand coordination easier (real important when >your jumping for a branch) but humans brains developed long after our bodies >and hands were developed. So you do agree (to a certain degree) that there is a more than normal connection between hand and brain? >Why did humans develop such powefull minds? Thats a hotly debateed question. Yes, I noticed ;) Tim From popserver Sat Feb 3 04:02:21 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["10392" "Sat" "3" "February" "1996" "00:46:20" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "217" "Re: Re: Summary" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id QAA04896 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 16:19:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA15501 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Sat, 3 Feb 1996 00:46:09 +0100 Message-Id: <199602022346.AA15501@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Re: Summary Date: Sat, 03 Feb 1996 00:46:20 +0100 >>>Lower information return to Earth due to limited baud rates of interstellar >>>communication. >> >>Assuming we are able to create 1E18 Watts I think that bandwidth is minor >>problem. > >Power gets you range, not bandwidth. Since you only have the ability to >use the avalible spectrum once. I do worry about bandwidth. I assumed these bands where unusable because of interstellar noise, but since that does not seem to be the case, I ask you which interstellar bands are not usable and why? I cannot believe that the bandwith is too small, if necessary we may be able to build X-ray transmitters. ============================================================================== >>>>cons >>>Technically more challenging. Getting a ship to the target starsystem is >>>hard enough. Getting it back would make it harder. But this must be >>>traded off against the added complexity of a ship capable of supporting its >>>crew for the rest of their lives. >> >>Indeed, but if we are not able to build a small colony during a one-way >>mission than the chances are small that we are able to build a complete >>power array for a two-way mission. So this means that all power for the >>return mission has to come Earth. > >No, that would only be true if you asumed a beamed power ship, which I >don't. Besides, if you do have a beamed power system that can power the >ship all the way into another star system (which seems questionable), >useing that system again to get the ship out wouldn't add any complexity. >Upgrading all the ship systems for an indefinate stay would add complexity. It would have been easier if you wrote what kind of propulsion you assumed. Since you are not assuming a beamed power ship, I assume you use a fusion powered ship so distances are less than 6 ly. This limits the amount of possible stars even more, I would see that as a cerious disadvantage. ============================================================================== >>Also politically less preferable, because the project will take longer and >>probably twice the effort. > >Thats a possibility. It certianly would be politically less likely to be >funded allong its entire history. But given that expenses would be spread >out over a longer time it might cost less over a given period of time. > >I'm surprized you objected to this section thou, since its the only option >(i.e. assured routine supply flight) that woulkd allow a colony mission? I'm just being consequent. ============================================================================== >>>Crew constructs equipment for return flight >>This assumes that either people stay behind to control and repair the >>launcher or that we have AI that is smart enough to keep the thing working >>perfectly. >>!! This is something we have not discussed before as far as I know !! > >Sure we have. Months ago. Then what was the conclusion, I can't remember it? Saying that it only has to work for 20 years, is not enough since the pro was that it had to make a two way trip easier. >It wouldn't take the same equipment as a colony, nor would it nessisarily >be a power array. If you are planning on building a big mirror, I think you need a lot of machinery and crew to operate it. To build anything like a mirror of several kilmetres, you need ore-extracters, refineries, transporters etc. The amount in which they are needed exceeds by far that what is needed for building a colony. The mirror may look easy to build but I'm sure that almost everything you need for a colony you also need for building a mirror. The only thing you would not need is a farm. ============================================================================== >>>Multi-generation Succeeding generations of crew continue the mission >There environment wont be that of explorers, but as ship crew. The >mission, exploring and returning info to earth, would interfear with that. >The history of utopian or riligious colonies in the U.S. suggestes that >children and gradchildren don't followe int the focused extreams of the >founders. We are not talking about religious groups. These groups often have the tendency to cling to an utopia. Often they use stringent rules based on the belief of the leader, everyone trying to disobey is punished. On an explorer ship people can have a more democratic way of living. Also not everybody needs to be an explorer, there are people that need to do other jobs as well. >No, the initial crew could be trained on earth and the solar system, by >people who operated the systems in a real environment. That wouldn't be >possible on the ship. Especially when the origional, experienced crew grew >old and died. On a multi-gen ship there will also be a scientific crew, they are explorers. If then need some practical experience, they will have all the time they need. Simulators for shuttles and vehicles could do a great job helping them. >I disagree that a two way mission depends on a beamed power system, nor am >I assuming were going to Tau Ceti. Given that we've been at this for over >a year and a half and still havent figured out any way to get there, I'm >not optimistic. It would be nice if you wrote that somewhere in this draft though. >Ignoring that I don't follow your assumption that it would make a one way >mission more practical or feasable. A power system would only need to keep >working for a few years until the ship gets to the drive cut off point. It's a big risk trusting your live to a automated system on which you would have no control. A single programming error can shut down the power source and there would be no one to turn it on again. >A self sustaining colony would need to keep working for generations, and >require huge amounts of people. Even if a colony was buildable, that >doesn't nessisarily make it politically feasable. Your still sending >people out to a desolate area for no real proactical benifit (other than >scientific, which doesn't require a colony). With colony I don't necessary mean a planet based one, a scientific mission that would really "get into" the planets would need much more than 10 years, so they would like a place to live also. >>Multi-step, Multi-gen and hibernation ships all have the same condition(=a >>working ship for >40 years) as a one-way mission so I think they should have >>the same political feasability. > >The difference in political terms, is that it would seem likely that a >hibernation system would get the crew back alive (assuming everthing >worked). The others condem them to die in space. You are constantly saying most things will break down within 25 to 35 years. If the largest part of the crew is in hybernation, they will have an even harder job to get things fixed in time. So if I want to follow that, hibernation is even doomed more than a one-way mission. And of course this assumes that hibernation will work, I personally would see a bigger possibility of an anti-matter drive than for hibernation. >>The difference between constrution-return and round-trip are not clear since >>we haven't defined how(=what energy source) the round-trip makes its return. >>So its not clear how the differences in feasability are explained. > >Rount trip could use a fusion powered ship that mines fuel in the system. >Possibly with a fuel launcher construction option. Of course we need to know if the fuel we need can be found and mined easely. Although hydrogen will be present, it may not be as concentrated as we like. ============================================================================= >Not likely. We have no reason to asume we'ld find any earth like planets >in neighboring star systems. Especiall ones that are so earth like as to >be comfortable. (I.E. an Earth like world that was no cooler or wetter >than the Sahara or warmer than the antarctic in winter, would still be >remarkable.) Certainly if you sticking to the L.I.T. Tau C. flight idea, >by definition their were no even vaugly earth like worlds spotted there. Then why are we going, one of the main LIT objectives was that there was a strong evidence of life in the system we would explore. When there is life it will almost certainly have some acceptable temperature. ============================================================================= >>A problem with staging is that you throw away your ship, this makes a >>two-way mission much harder! > >Agreed. So, do you know how to solve it without having a big industry at the remote end of the trip? >>This is not certain, the ideas I stated some time ago are only a few and >>were considered as most preferred though less easy methods. There does not >>have to be a real difference between a fusion or an anti-matter powered >>ship. Both can be used as heat-energy sources to accelerate reaction mass. > >True, but I wasn't expectin to use the fusion power to heat a rockets >reation mass. That would threaten to melt the ship quickly. How where you going to use that heat then? Does it matter that much if you are first tranforming the heat into electricity? >>FTL is a principle that has been withstanding many experiments to unprove >>it. Chances are small that FTL will become possible in the next century (if >>at all). > >Small but not impossible. It seems ftl is possible, but we know of no way >to do it with any realistic physical system, much less a buildable one. >But then we would have said that about space travel a couple of cventuries >ago. It definatly requires some new physics (as opposed to engineering) >tricks. Then again, without it star travel beyond the nearest stars will >never be practical. Why does it seem that ftl is possible, I've never seen a serious article that stated to have found a way to make a signal travel faster than the speed of light. Even not in tunneling! ========================================================================== >I don't follow that last bit. Presumably a one way flight could construct >a larger space platform for living quarters. But if they could construct >anything that extensive, they could build a way to get home. So presumably >eiather way they are stuck in the ship. Just for a lot longer if they >aren't coming home. Indeed they could, but maybe they would not want to stay any longer in a small ship. Of course this depends on the duration of the trip. Timothy From popserver Sat Feb 3 04:03:22 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["738" "Fri" "2" "February" "1996" "17:33:11" "-0800" "Ric Rddesign Denisse Hedman" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" nil "19" "Re: Hands and brains" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: rddesign@wolfenet.com Received: from wolfe.net (mail1.wolfe.net [204.157.98.11]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id RAA11265 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 17:38:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from rddesign.wolfenet.com (sea-ts2-p59.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.177]) by wolfe.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id RAA26543; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 17:33:11 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199602030133.RAA26543@wolfe.net> X-Sender: rddesign@wolfenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric & Denisse Hedman) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Subject: Re: Hands and brains Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 17:33:11 -0800 (PST) >To David: > >>But what about dinosaurs, small-brained creatures, >>many of whom had bodies much larger than elephants? >>I think I've read somewhere that a large portion >>of their nervous system was distributed... i.e., >>their spinal cord handled more functions than ours >>does. So why do elephants have a large brain >>instead of a distributed nervous system, more >>like a dinosaurs? > >Maybe they had a smaller brain because they were (coldblooded?) reptiles >instead of warmblooded mammals. This is in great debate right now. Depends on which camp you are in. Dr Bakker beleives they were mostly warm blooded based partly on the care of young and other factors I can't remember right now. I tend to lean twords his beliefs. Ric From popserver Sat Feb 3 21:45:14 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["713" "Sat" "3" "February" "1996" "15:44:31" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "19" "Re: Hands and brains" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id GAA14485 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 06:43:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA18432 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 3 Feb 1996 15:44:04 +0100 Message-Id: <199602031444.AA18432@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Hands and brains Date: Sat, 03 Feb 1996 15:44:31 +0100 Reply to Ric: >>Maybe they had a smaller brain because they were (coldblooded?) reptiles >>instead of warmblooded mammals. > >This is in great debate right now. Depends on which camp you are in. Dr >Bakker beleives they were mostly warm blooded based partly on the care of >young and other factors I can't remember right now. I tend to lean twords >his beliefs. >Ric They did lay eggs, I think? And they did not have hairs like most mammals. Did dinosaurs have scales like reptiles? Maybe the dinosaurs were somewhere in the middle, due to their size the couldn't rely on the Sun alone to heat up. For bigger animals it would also be easier to keep the heat in due to the better volume:surface ratio. Timothy From popserver Sat Feb 3 21:46:27 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["725" "Sat" "3" "February" "1996" "14:16:50" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "23" "Re: Hands and brains" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: David@interworld.com Received: from www.interworld.com (interworld.com [165.254.130.4]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id LAA29153 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 11:16:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from hal ([165.254.130.90]) by www.interworld.com (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 0-11464) with SMTP id AAA492; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 14:21:14 -0500 Message-ID: <3113B4A2.41BF@interworld.com> Organization: InterWorld, Really Cool Stuff Division X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0b5 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199602031444.AA18432@student.utwente.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David@interworld.com (David Levine) To: Timothy van der Linden CC: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Hands and brains Date: Sat, 03 Feb 1996 14:16:50 -0500 Timothy van der Linden wrote: > > Reply to Ric: > > >>Maybe they had a smaller brain because they were (coldblooded?) reptiles > >>instead of warmblooded mammals. > > > >This is in great debate right now. Depends on which camp you are in. Dr > >Bakker beleives they were mostly warm blooded based partly on the care of > >young and other factors I can't remember right now. I tend to lean twords > >his beliefs. > >Ric > > They did lay eggs, I think? And they did not have hairs like most mammals. > Did dinosaurs have scales like reptiles? > But Ric is just saying that they may have been warm blooded - he's not saying they may have been mammals. Birds, for instance, are warm blooded, but they're not mammals. David From popserver Sat Feb 3 21:46:48 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["933" "Sat" "3" "February" "1996" "11:40:16" "-0800" "Ric Rddesign Denisse Hedman" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" nil "29" "Re: Hands and brains" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: rddesign@wolfenet.com Received: from wolfe.net (mail1.wolfe.net [204.157.98.11]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id LAA01028 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 11:38:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from rddesign.wolfenet.com (sea-ts3-p10.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.192]) by wolfe.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id LAA18588; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 11:40:16 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199602031940.LAA18588@wolfe.net> X-Sender: rddesign@wolfenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric & Denisse Hedman) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Subject: Re: Hands and brains Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 11:40:16 -0800 (PST) >Timothy van der Linden wrote: >> >> Reply to Ric: >> >> >>Maybe they had a smaller brain because they were (coldblooded?) reptiles >> >>instead of warmblooded mammals. >> > >> >This is in great debate right now. Depends on which camp you are in. Dr >> >Bakker beleives they were mostly warm blooded based partly on the care of >> >young and other factors I can't remember right now. I tend to lean twords >> >his beliefs. >> >Ric >> >> They did lay eggs, I think? And they did not have hairs like most mammals. >> Did dinosaurs have scales like reptiles? >> > >But Ric is just saying that they may have been warm >blooded - he's not saying they may have been mammals. >Birds, for instance, are warm blooded, but they're >not mammals. > >David Anatomicly (?) dinosaurs are 99%+ built like birds, especially the carnivors. The way the legs work, Feathers are really scales, the need for grining stones in the gullet. etc.... > > From popserver Sat Feb 3 23:25:09 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1755" "Sun" "4" "February" "1996" "00:21:53" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "42" "Re: Hands and brains" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id PAA14073 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 15:20:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA10190 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 4 Feb 1996 00:21:42 +0100 Message-Id: <199602032321.AA10190@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Hands and brains Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1996 00:21:53 +0100 Reply to: David and Ric >>> >>Maybe they had a smaller brain because they were (coldblooded?) reptiles >>> >>instead of warmblooded mammals. >>> > >>> >This is in great debate right now. Depends on which camp you are in. Dr >>> >Bakker beleives they were mostly warm blooded based partly on the care of >>> >young and other factors I can't remember right now. I tend to lean twords >>> >his beliefs. >>> >Ric >>> >>> They did lay eggs, I think? And they did not have hairs like most mammals. >>> Did dinosaurs have scales like reptiles? >>> >> >>But Ric is just saying that they may have been warm >>blooded - he's not saying they may have been mammals. >>Birds, for instance, are warm blooded, but they're >>not mammals. I was not argueing that, I just wanted to show a way why they could have been warmblooded while having a small brain. For thay way it was important to show they where reptiles first. Since reptiles are originally coldblooded, I figured that if they became warmblooded, it would only be logical due to their increased size. So that means they were shifting from cold- to warmblooded and not that they had been warmblooded all the time. So then their smaller brain would have been a remainder of earlier coldblooded days, where it would have been more difficult to keep a larger brain working. (Mammals, birds and reptiles are the members of the vertebrates. So that implies that they have some similarities.) >Anatomicly (?) dinosaurs are 99%+ built like birds, especially the >carnivors. The way the legs work, Feathers are really scales, the need for >grining stones in the gullet. etc.... I didn't know that birds used sand? in their "stomach/gullet". But in what way do bird and mammal legs differ from reptiles? Timothy From popserver Wed Feb 7 21:27:42 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["199" "Wed" "7" "February" "1996" "18:16:56" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "14" "Who am I?" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id JAA06906 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 09:15:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA03890 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 7 Feb 1996 18:16:48 +0100 Message-Id: <199602071716.AA03890@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Who am I? Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 18:16:56 +0100 >I think therefore I am. So at least I know I exist. > >Brian Mansur No, no: I think, therefore you are... Now I only wonder: What am I? Timothy P.S. Did you carbon copy this only to Kelly? From popserver Thu Feb 8 07:48:10 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["268" "Wed" "7" "February" "1996" "17:09:03" "-0800" "Ric Rddesign Denisse Hedman" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" nil "7" "Where is everyone" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: rddesign@wolfenet.com Received: from wolfe.net (mail1.wolfe.net [204.157.98.11]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id VAA14247 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 21:55:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from rddesign.wolfenet.com (sea-ts3-p08.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.190]) by wolfe.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id RAA29430; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 17:09:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199602080109.RAA29430@wolfe.net> X-Sender: rddesign@wolfenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric & Denisse Hedman) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Subject: Where is everyone Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 17:09:03 -0800 (PST) Just wondering what has happened. I haven't seen any messages for a week now and I am begining to think I have missed some importent infomation. Do we have a newsletter again? Is the LIT web site up and folks are posting there? I'm going into LIT withdrawl. :-) Ric From popserver Thu Feb 8 19:07:12 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["262" "Thu" "8" "February" "1996" "09:32:00" "PST" "Brian Mansur" "bmansur@oc.edu" nil "11" "RE: REPLY ALL" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: bmansur@oc.edu Received: from einstein.oc.edu (DNS2.OC.EDU [205.143.216.15]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id HAA15244 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 07:34:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mainpobox.oc.edu by einstein.oc.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/16Oct95-0320PM) id AA07665; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 09:31:19 -0600 Received: by mainpobox.oc.edu with Microsoft Mail id <311A3353@mainpobox.oc.edu>; Thu, 08 Feb 96 09:30:59 PST Message-Id: <311A3353@mainpobox.oc.edu> Encoding: 12 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 From: Brian Mansur To: bmansur , David , hous0042 , jim , KellySt , rddesign , stevev , "T.L.G.vanderLinden" , zkulpa Subject: RE: REPLY ALL Date: Thu, 08 Feb 96 09:32:00 PST ---------- From: Brian V. Mansur To: KellySt; stevev; jim; zkulpa; hous0042; rddesign; David; bmansur Subject: replying to everyone Date: Saturday, Feburary 8, 1996 9:30 AM I just discovered the REPLY ALL button on my e-mail program! Now I can die happy. From popserver Thu Feb 8 19:07:33 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["588" "Thu" "8" "February" "1996" "10:13:16" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "22" "RE: REPLY ALL" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id IAA18015 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 08:14:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Thu, 8 Feb 96 10:13:17 -0600 In-Reply-To: <311A3353@mainpobox.oc.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: Brian Mansur cc: bmansur , David , jim , KellySt , rddesign , stevev , "T.L.G.vanderLinden" , zkulpa Subject: RE: REPLY ALL Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 10:13:16 -0600 (CST) On Thu, 8 Feb 1996, Brian Mansur wrote: > > I just discovered the REPLY ALL button on my e-mail program! Now I can die > happy. Gee Brian, when I reply to someone, my mail program asks me two questions. 1) include original message in reply y/n 2) reply to all recipients y/n to:all Re: my participation I've had a rough couple of weeks, I've been following along, but not responding much. rest assured, that I have not started the trip without you Kevin in MN Where I was walking around in short sleeves yesterday because the temp had risen to a balmy 35 F. :) From popserver Fri Feb 9 02:06:55 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1986" "Thu" "8" "February" "1996" "20:30:21" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "48" "Re: I found the food numbers!" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com (mail06.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.108]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id RAA08869 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 17:32:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA09154; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 20:30:21 -0500 Message-ID: <960208203019_139506541@mail06.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: stevev@efn.org cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: I found the food numbers! Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 20:30:21 -0500 stevev@efn.org (Steve VanDevender) > > KellySt@aol.com writes: > > >> Would stored food need no protection against radiation? I'm not sure how > > much and if the food would become radioactive. But if it does, it may need > > shielding too. << > > > > No. Food would only become radioactive if radioactive particals were mixed in > > with it. Xrays and stuff would cause no perminent change. Thou it would > > keep longer. Its actually been tested as a food preservative, and works. > > The real answer depends on what kind and what level of radiation the > food is exposed to. > > Alpha particles (helium nuclei) and beta particles (electrons) are > unlikely to do any damage to the food, as they will be stopped by the > packaging. > > Energetic ultraviolet and X-rays may ionize atoms in the stored food and > produce undesirable chemical changes with high exposure, but won't make > the food radioactive. > > Neutrons or gamma rays could make the food radioactive by interacting > with the nuclei of atoms in the food; neutrons can be captured by nuclei > to produce radioactive isotopes or transmutation, and gamma rays can > induce fission of nuclei. Both types of radiation are likely products > of fusion or antimatter reactions. Neutron shielding in fusion reactors > is actually a pretty significant problem, as the shielding itself tends > to become radioactive. > > Any high quantity of radiation of the latter two classes is likely to > cause degradation of the food over time. Unless of course the fusion fuel you specified doesn't produce neutrons. Off hand I can't think of a Gama source on the ship, unles we use antimater. In that case we have a very hard radiation problem in general. We might have more problems with cosmic radiation, especially on fast ships. But given the tolerance of the food vs the human crew I don't, think, it will be a problem. Certainly less than with a farm where the food has to be kept healthy to grow. Kelly From popserver Fri Feb 9 02:06:56 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1100" "Thu" "8" "February" "1996" "20:30:31" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "30" "Re: Hands and brains" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com (emout06.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.43]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id RAA08924 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 17:33:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA10030; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 20:30:31 -0500 Message-ID: <960208203030_139506704@emout06.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: David@interworld.com cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Hands and brains Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 20:30:31 -0500 to: David@interworld.com (David Levine) > KellySt@aol.com wrote: > > > > To: Timothy van der Linden) > > > > > > But why do elephants have such big brains (3 to 4 times larger than > > humans)? > > > > They need the nuerons to run their big bodies, which are dozens of times > > humans. > > But what about dinosaurs, small-brained creatures, > many of whom had bodies much larger than elephants? > I think I've read somewhere that a large portion > of their nervous system was distributed... i.e., > their spinal cord handled more functions than ours > does. So why do elephants have a large brain > instead of a distributed nervous system, more > like a dinosaurs? > > David Hum, don't know. Then again how intelegent were they, and how heavy were their brains (or spinal cords in this case). I'ld guess they were very stupid, so they would need a preportionally smaller brain. Where as an elephant is fairly cleaver (say compared to a horse or something) so it needed a preportionally bigger brain then a Bronto. (Naturally I have extensive field experence with dinosaurs. ;) ) Kelly From popserver Fri Feb 9 02:06:59 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["14622" "Thu" "8" "February" "1996" "20:31:20" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "319" "Re: Re: Summary" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id RAA08981 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 17:33:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA05160; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 20:31:20 -0500 Message-ID: <960208203119_139507411@mail02.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Re: Summary Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 20:31:20 -0500 to: Timothy van der Linden) > > >>>Lower information return to Earth due to limited baud rates of interstellar > >>>communication. > >> > >>Assuming we are able to create 1E18 Watts I think that bandwidth is minor > >>problem. > > > >Power gets you range, not bandwidth. Since you only have the ability to > >use the avalible spectrum once. I do worry about bandwidth. > > I assumed these bands where unusable because of interstellar noise, but > since that does not seem to be the case, I ask you which interstellar bands > are not usable and why? I cannot believe that the bandwith is too small, if > necessary we may be able to build X-ray transmitters. I'm just saying that there is a limit to the amount of information that can be transmitted inteligably over interstellar distences even is your playing with all the usable spectrum. Obviously the local star(s) will drown out most of the frequency bands, given that earth scopes will be looking straight at it. So we will eiather have to make due with that stars quiet bands, use incredible amounts of power (you really want to out shout a star?), and use a lot of low bouad and error correction to make up for interfearence. ============================================================================== > >>>>cons > >>>Technically more challenging. Getting a ship to the target starsystem is > >>>hard enough. Getting it back would make it harder. But this must be > >>>traded off against the added complexity of a ship capable of supporting its > >>>crew for the rest of their lives. > >> > >>Indeed, but if we are not able to build a small colony during a one-way > >>mission than the chances are small that we are able to build a complete > >>power array for a two-way mission. So this means that all power for the > >>return mission has to come Earth. > > > >No, that would only be true if you asumed a beamed power ship, which I > >don't. Besides, if you do have a beamed power system that can power the > >ship all the way into another star system (which seems questionable), > >useing that system again to get the ship out wouldn't add any complexity. > >Upgrading all the ship systems for an indefinate stay would add complexity. > > It would have been easier if you wrote what kind of propulsion you assumed. > Since you are not assuming a beamed power ship, I assume you use a fusion > powered ship so distances are less than 6 ly. This limits the amount of > possible stars even more, I would see that as a cerious disadvantage. I was trying to not assume any system or technology but to phrase it a genarically as possible. If the ship is limited to a flight duration of so many years. Its range varies with its speed. ============================================================================== > > >>Also politically less preferable, because the project will take longer and > >>probably twice the effort. > > > >Thats a possibility. It certianly would be politically less likely to be > >funded allong its entire history. But given that expenses would be spread > >out over a longer time it might cost less over a given period of time. > > > >I'm surprized you objected to this section thou, since its the only option > >(i.e. assured routine supply flight) that woulkd allow a colony mission? > > I'm just being consequent. Consequent? Is that the word you ment? ============================================================================== > > >>>Crew constructs equipment for return flight > > >>This assumes that either people stay behind to control and repair the > >>launcher or that we have AI that is smart enough to keep the thing working > >>perfectly. > >>!! This is something we have not discussed before as far as I know !! > > > >Sure we have. Months ago. > > Then what was the conclusion, I can't remember it? A simple system like a fuel launcher that only has to work for a couple months every few deacdes should be able to be automated once its set up. And making redundant copies will assure acceptable relyability. Also the first thing eveyone does when entering the system is repair the fuel launcher. > Saying that it only has to work for 20 years, is not enough since the pro > was that it had to make a two way trip easier. > > >It wouldn't take the same equipment as a colony, nor would it nessisarily > >be a power array. > > If you are planning on building a big mirror, I think you need a lot of > machinery and crew to operate it. To build anything like a mirror of several > kilmetres, you need ore-extracters, refineries, transporters etc. The amount > in which they are needed exceeds by far that what is needed for building a > colony. The mirror may look easy to build but I'm sure that almost > everything you need for a colony you also need for building a mirror. The > only thing you would not need is a farm. I wasn't building a mirror (what i the hell would it be for anyway?), and colonies need air and water recyclers, housing for humans, furniture, hospitals, and a lot of other things that a automated platform wouldn't need. ============================================================================== > > >>>Multi-generation Succeeding generations of crew continue the mission > > >There environment wont be that of explorers, but as ship crew. The > >mission, exploring and returning info to earth, would interfear with that. > >The history of utopian or riligious colonies in the U.S. suggestes that > >children and gradchildren don't followe int the focused extreams of the > >founders. > > We are not talking about religious groups. --- Well obviously only a very 'focused' group of beleavers are going to condem themselves to perminent imprisionment for a multi-gen cause. > --- These groups often have the > tendency to cling to an utopia. Often they use stringent rules based > on the belief of the leader, everyone trying to disobey is punished. > On an explorer ship people can have a more democratic way of living. > Also not everybody needs to be an explorer, there are people that > need to do other jobs as well. > > >No, the initial crew could be trained on earth and the solar system, by > >people who operated the systems in a real environment. That wouldn't be > >possible on the ship. Especially when the origional, experienced crew grew > >old and died. > > On a multi-gen ship there will also be a scientific crew, they are > explorers. If then need some practical experience, they will have all the > time they need. Simulators for shuttles and vehicles could do a great job > helping them. You can't simulate exploring planets in the confines of a vitual reality simulator, nor can you learn everything about fliying high performance aircraft without flying them. None of which can be done completly in a sim. In a multi-gen crew. Nothing anout exploration, not even seeing a real sky or horizon would be familure to them. > >I disagree that a two way mission depends on a beamed power system, nor am > >I assuming were going to Tau Ceti. Given that we've been at this for over > >a year and a half and still havent figured out any way to get there, I'm > >not optimistic. > > It would be nice if you wrote that somewhere in this draft though. I suppose we will need a summarry of all the drive systems we considered. > >Ignoring that I don't follow your assumption that it would make a one way > >mission more practical or feasable. A power system would only need to keep > >working for a few years until the ship gets to the drive cut off point. > > It's a big risk trusting your live to a automated system on which you would > have no control. A single programming error can shut down the power source > and there would be no one to turn it on again. Compared to the dangers of a colony, thats trivial. > >A self sustaining colony would need to keep working for generations, and > >require huge amounts of people. Even if a colony was buildable, that > >doesn't nessisarily make it politically feasable. Your still sending > >people out to a desolate area for no real proactical benifit (other than > >scientific, which doesn't require a colony). > > With colony I don't necessary mean a planet based one, a scientific > mission that would really "get into" the planets would need much > more than 10 years, so they would like a place to live also. > > >>Multi-step, Multi-gen and hibernation ships all have the same condition(=a > >>working ship for >40 years) as a one-way mission so I think they should have > >>the same political feasability. > > > >The difference in political terms, is that it would seem likely that a > >hibernation system would get the crew back alive (assuming everthing > >worked). The others condem them to die in space. > > You are constantly saying most things will break down within 25 to 35 years. > If the largest part of the crew is in hybernation, they will have an even > harder job to get things fixed in time. So if I want to follow that, > hibernation is even doomed more than a one-way mission. And of course this > assumes that hibernation will work, I personally would see a bigger > possibility of an anti-matter drive than for hibernation. I agree that hibernation is risky technically and unsafe. But that doesn't effect its political risk. Politics is about impressions, not realities. > >>The difference between constrution-return and round-trip are not clear since > >>we haven't defined how(=what energy source) the round-trip makes its return. > >>So its not clear how the differences in feasability are explained. > > > >Rount trip could use a fusion powered ship that mines fuel in the system. > >Possibly with a fuel launcher construction option. > > Of course we need to know if the fuel we need can be found and mined easely. > Although hydrogen will be present, it may not be as concentrated as we like. And of course the fusion systems I'm assuming don't burn hydrogen. It is a risk, but we have little else that might work. ============================================================================= > > >Not likely. We have no reason to asume we'ld find any earth like planets > >in neighboring star systems. Especiall ones that are so earth like as to > >be comfortable. (I.E. an Earth like world that was no cooler or wetter > >than the Sahara or warmer than the antarctic in winter, would still be > >remarkable.) Certainly if you sticking to the L.I.T. Tau C. flight idea, > >by definition their were no even vaugly earth like worlds spotted there. > > Then why are we going, one of the main LIT objectives was that > there was a strong evidence of life in the system we would explore. > > When there is life it will almost certainly have some acceptable temperature. Life can survive and thrive in a lot of environments that we could possible survive. Temps of hundreds of degrees F, radiation, low grav and presure, deep oceans etc. I don't remember anything in the LIT charter that suggested an earth like ecosphere. It didn't even have a planet anywhere clse to earth in mass. The charter was just we found a solar system and people wanted someone to go and check it out. It never said they'ld want to colonize it. ============================================================================= > > >>A problem with staging is that you throw away your ship, this makes a > >>two-way mission much harder! > > > >Agreed. > > So, do you know how to solve it without having a big industry at the remote > end of the trip? You could save the light high tech parts of the stages (fuel processors, power systems, etc) and throw away the heavy structure and tanks. That might allow you to rebuild the heavy stuff in the starsystem from local ores, and refit it with the salvaged parts of the old stages. However you should note that staging quickly requiers a HUGE ship. You quickly might need to mine a starsystem for fuel. > >>This is not certain, the ideas I stated some time ago are only a few and > >>were considered as most preferred though less easy methods. There does not > >>have to be a real difference between a fusion or an anti-matter powered > >>ship. Both can be used as heat-energy sources to accelerate reaction mass. > > > >True, but I wasn't expectin to use the fusion power to heat a rockets > >reation mass. That would threaten to melt the ship quickly. > > How where you going to use that heat then? Does it matter that > much if you are first tranforming the heat into electricity? The Bussard reactors, and the fuels they use; don't produce radiation, heat, or the rest. The power comes out as charged fast moving particals. Those particals can be run past a magnetic feild for almost perfect conversion of the fuels power to electricity (with virtually no thermal load) or released as a reaction mass. > >>FTL is a principle that has been withstanding many experiments to unprove > >>it. Chances are small that FTL will become possible in the next century (if > >>at all). > > > >Small but not impossible. It seems ftl is possible, but we know of no way > >to do it with any realistic physical system, much less a buildable one. > >But then we would have said that about space travel a couple of cventuries > >ago. It definatly requires some new physics (as opposed to engineering) > >tricks. Then again, without it star travel beyond the nearest stars will > >never be practical. > > Why does it seem that ftl is possible, I've never seen a serious article > that stated to have found a way to make a signal travel faster than the > speed of light. Even not in tunneling! I've seen several major physivs papers talk about the theoretical consistency with FTL and time travel, worm holes and the like. Also some are interpreting the one hole show partical, two hole shows a wave, experiments as showing ftl feedback. Also by def, quantum shifts of electrons happen instently. ========================================================================== > > >I don't follow that last bit. Presumably a one way flight could construct > >a larger space platform for living quarters. But if they could construct > >anything that extensive, they could build a way to get home. So presumably > >eiather way they are stuck in the ship. Just for a lot longer if they > >aren't coming home. > > Indeed they could, but maybe they would not want to stay any longer in a > small ship. Of course this depends on the duration of the trip. Especially when comparing it with several decades of possibly remaing life expectency. A couple of which would be lost on a colony. Kelly From popserver Fri Feb 9 02:07:04 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2621" "Thu" "8" "February" "1996" "20:30:43" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "59" "Re: Recycling/AI and super human computers" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id RAA09007 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 17:33:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA13432; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 20:30:43 -0500 Message-ID: <960208203042_139506872@mail04.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Recycling/AI and super human computers Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 20:30:43 -0500 To Tim >>> Maybe we should make them just smart enough to do > >>> the dirty jobs. And use only a few with IQ 1000 to think. > > > >;) You can't hide forever. Best to come out a deal with things as theyt > >happen, not try to lock yourself into a safe past. > > It's not lock yourself, it's protecting yourself. It's like saying, why not > do any kind of genetic experiment, you can't stop it anyway. We will do genetic experimentation, and A.I. because both are very important/valuble. In both cases we will try to be carefull and will make mistakes. Thats just life. Trying to put some wall that you can only make stupid A.I.s (assuming we had some way to control that) would be clumbsy and impractical. Probably as dangerous as a hostile hi I.Q. A.I.. > Of course smart computers are not necessary dangerous, maybe they > LIKE to help us out. If they are convinced that we are not just > annoying bugs, then the problem may not be that worse. Humans are a very adaptable species. We will probably be worth trading with. If not we have no obvious point of friction, so an intelegent A.I. species that didn't like us, would just leave. (Thou a stupid one might try world conquest.) Are you this paranoid about aliens? How would you deal with a hyper evolved E.T.? If you don't think we'ld be able to deal with domestic aliens of our own creation, how can we deal with ultra-E.T.s? > >>> Yes, I found some info about another CRAY having max 1.2 TFLOPS. > > > >Ok, so we have the electronic brains. Now for the minds! > > As soon as the structure of the brain and its input is ready the mind will > follow automatically. > The input is something that a lot of people forget. I think for any brain to > start working, the input should be sufficiently high. And if we want a > computer that is least likely to kill us and most likely to understand us, > we should make its senses similar to ours. Ready? I suppose we could just CAT scan in someones brain and have it emulate it. > I think there is another possibility to control the AI, we let it "live" in > a virtual reality, which is created by us. So every action the AI undertakes > will not be a real one (so no harm to us), but since we can control it's > input it may never know that it is not real. You forget. It isn't a physical creature, it is a data construct. A 'virtual reality' would be very alien to it. It would probably bypass it to the more natural binary data space. Our physical world of time and space could seem very alien. Other concepts, like death, have caused some confusion for advanced A.I. prototypes. Kelly From popserver Fri Feb 9 02:07:06 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["7787" "Thu" "8" "February" "1996" "20:31:00" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "185" "Re: Hands and brains" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id RAA09083 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 17:34:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA04951; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 20:31:00 -0500 Message-ID: <960208203058_139507106@mail02.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Hands and brains Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 20:31:00 -0500 Subj: Re: Hands and brains to: Timothy van der Linden > To Kelly: > > >> But why do elephants have such big brains (3 to 4 times larger than > >humans)? > > > >They need the nuerons to run their big bodies, which are dozens of times > >humans. > > Are you sure or are you guessing? The story that David wrote, I had heard > before. It was the reason why I thought (before I read otherwise) that an > elephant (and a dolphin) had a small brain too. Yes, elephants have very large brains with normal sized cells, but the cells are not aranged in a complex structure, and are not as proportionally large as humans. Dolphins brains are larger (in mass and proportion) then humans, and are more structuralu complex, but the complexity isn't in the intelegence centers. > Looking at this after discussing it, a possible explanation may be that the > brain-cells are much bigger. This may also be the case for dolphins. So when > saying the absolute size, I should have said the number of neurons. I don't > have any confirming data however. I'm going to search for some more data > about this. > > >> >automate systems will work well and productivly. Which is why all large > >> >manufacturing industries use them. > >> > >> But that means that much less people can do the job > > > >Yes. > > So if you go on a few centuries, only a few people have to work. This is > where I was going to. Look what happened in the past. Technology allowed farming (which used to take up the bulk of the population) to be done by less than 5% of the pop. That doesn't mean the other 95% decided to goof off all the time. They just spend their time doing something else. > >> It's keeping the heat in: Greenhouse gasses are more opaque planetary > >> radiation than for solar radiation. Solar radiation is what directly comes > >> from the Sun and planetary radiation is > > > >I know the theory, I also know their is no data to support it. > > Of course I don't have the hands on an experiment that proved it but I find > it very hard to believe that no one has tried to figure out to what kind of > radiation the so called greenhouse gasses are most opaque. This very simple > experiment would show the proof or rebuttal. It is not a simple experiment. NASA tried to do some studies comparing thermal emmisions from earth and space to get a ballence audit. So far the info is frustratingly inconclusive. Climatologists really have little handel on what percentage of the earths heat comes from solar heat, or converted light, or internal heating. Then again, it was only a few years back that someone showed the greenhouse effect dosen't work in greenhouses. Bottom line, no one has any models that acuratly predict anything about climate on that scale. We just don't know the fundamentals that well, and the extream mass of calculations would swamp any of our current computers. None of the globalwarming theories predictions agree well with one another, or with our real history. (Ask Kevin about the iunseasonably warmer winters that we are supposed to be having. Parts of his area hit -60 F!) And no one has been able to detect a credible (acuratly messurable) temperature increase. Few of the temperatures are even take in areas that would show such an effect. For example if you check city temps you will see and increase. but it maps to urban growth around the airports where the temps are taken. Not to state wide temps. (Thats why NASA tried using global thermal images.) > >It is also argued if the earth is getting warmer or cooler. NASA went back > >over 25-30 years of satelihgt scans. They could have detected a change as > >small as 1/5th the smallest variation predicted by any of the green house > >theories. They didn't find it. Longer term arcio-climatology studies have > >shown a cooling since the mid 1800, a warming from the 1700, and a long term > >cooling over the last 800 years. > > Did these images show there was no temperature increase or did they show > that there was no increase due to the so called greenhouse effect. If you > mean the latter, how can they distinguish between normal and greenhouse > deviations? They showed no detectable global increase in temp. > >> To that I agree, but as long the greenhouse effect is not too large the > >> temperatures will not become so high that no live can exist. At the > >> light-side of the moon you will freeze to death (assuming you weren't > >> choking first) this is because there are no gasses to keep the heat in. The > >> only heat there is radiative heat. > > > >How do you freeze to death at 200 degrees F? Trust me, freezing wasn't a > >problem on the moon in full sunlight. > > Yes, that is radiative heat, not convective. So everything that is in the > shadow is much colder. I assume that if you where standing with your back to > the Sun than your belly would freeze. Worse if your in the shadow of a rock! > >> I think that if chemicals are not recycled any amount is used up in a > >> relative short period. (If water and carbondioxide where not recycled by > >> plants, animal (non photosynthesis) live would very soon die away). > > > >But the chemicals are being recycled by the planetary geo-processes, and they > >have sustained their local populations for a very long time. > > Yes, but the chances for evolution are not very big in a small (local) area > where the climate is relatively stable. Higher evolutionized animals would > not occur due to serious inbreading. But in an alien environ those isolated patchs here, could be the norm for the planet. (It would be worth a lot of study, but no one would want to live there!) > >> I've seen a TV-series (again :) ) that tried to explain that the human > >brain > >> expanded as soon as it began standing up. The reason for that was the > >> temperature difference between 0.8 metre (on 4 legs) and 1.5 metres (on 2 > >> legs) above the ground. ------- > >> One question remains however, why didn't they get a bigger brain while in > >> the forest before the mountain ridge appeared? > > > >Or why didn'tproto apes in cooler climates develop it. > > Ah, I think I know, they had a live that was too easy, so there was no > advantage of being smart. The apes on the rather dry and hot savannas had to > do more for their food than just sitting on a branch. Yeah, something about having to go hunt down your food and not just reach out for it. Its still debated thou. > >Besides, humans are > >warm blooded. They keep thie brain tissue withing a fraction of a degree of > >temp. > > But it is much harder to cool in higher temperatures. We aren't well evolved for higher temps, so we probably didn't live in them. > >Humans have an odd brain hand trick we retained since we were tree dwelers. > > It makes certain types of eye hand coordination easier (real important when > >your jumping for a branch) but humans brains developed long after our bodies > >and hands were developed. > > So you do agree (to a certain degree) that there is a more than normal > connection between hand and brain? Not for other tree dwelling apes or monkeys, but it is an unusual structure. but then humans have had a very odd history. trees, to water, to savanas, and each left odd evolutionary twists ranging from legs, fat distrabution, noses, weak lower backs, etc.. Maybe thats why we finally developed intelegence. We were such an adaptable patchwork, that without intelegence we couldn't use our bodies as well as they were capable of. > >Why did humans develop such powefull minds? Thats a hotly debateed question. > > Yes, I noticed ;) > > Tim Pity those damb chimps didn't keep good records! "yes another long leged freak with a passion for long walks. Its parents were heartbroken..." Kelly From popserver Fri Feb 9 06:07:13 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["301" "Thu" "8" "February" "1996" "22:37:38" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "12" "Re: RE: REPLY ALL" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id TAA18695 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 19:39:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA10763; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 22:37:38 -0500 Message-ID: <960208223737_139630438@mail04.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: bmansur@oc.edu, David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, stevev@efn.org, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: RE: REPLY ALL Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 22:37:38 -0500 to: Brian V. Mansur >> Subject: replying to everyone >> Date: Saturday, Feburary 8, 1996 9:30 AM >> I just discovered the REPLY ALL button on my e-mail >> program! Now I can die happy. You need a life (and a new online calendar ;) ). Be warned, net service to the dead is very bad. ;) Kelly From popserver Fri Feb 9 06:07:15 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["441" "Thu" "8" "February" "1996" "22:37:30" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "18" "Re: Where is everyone" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.12]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id TAA18704 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 19:39:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA27081; Thu, 8 Feb 1996 22:37:30 -0500 Message-ID: <960208223729_139630341@emout04.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: rddesign@wolfenet.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Subject: Re: Where is everyone Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 22:37:30 -0500 to: rddesign@wolfenet.com >> Just wondering what has happened. I haven't seen any >> messages for a week now and I am begining to think I >> have missed some importent infomation. >> Do we have a newsletter again? Is the LIT web site up >> and folks are posting there? I'm going into LIT >> withdrawl. :-) >> Ric Sorry, I droped off line. Don't panic! Don't get delusional. ;) Kelly From popserver Fri Feb 9 09:42:10 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1152" "Fri" "9" "February" "1996" "10:38:32" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "31" "Re: Anti-matter" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id BAA02047 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 01:40:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA01341 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 9 Feb 1996 10:38:26 +0100 Message-Id: <199602090938.AA01341@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Anti-matter Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 10:38:32 +0100 Reply to Brian: >Has anyone heard anything on the progress of making anti-hydrogen? I read >in a Discovery Mag article that someone was going to give it a serious go at >it last fall. Yes, at least I did read it somewhere, unfortunately the process to make anti-hydrogen is not as efficient as we would like. They only made 7 atoms. And I'm not sure yet if it would be easier to have matter or ions. There is something though that may give anti-particles a real impact. Some theories say that they may have anti-gravity. It is yet not possible to experimentally verify that, but in a few years an experiment can be done. You said that you had not time yet to collect all names of the MiniLIT members. They are in the header of every letter but depending on your mail-program that may not be visible. So I added them for you here. Do you know already what aliases are, if not, try figuring it out, it makes mailing to many people a lot easier. KellySt@aol.com stevev@efn.org T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu rddesign@wolfenet.com David@InterWorld.com Timothy From popserver Sat Feb 10 01:06:40 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["135" "Fri" "9" "February" "1996" "17:19:23" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "6" "Re: REPLY ALL" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id QAA07489 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 16:27:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA19010 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:19:16 +0100 Message-Id: <199602091619.AA19010@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: REPLY ALL Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 17:19:23 +0100 To Brian, My message about the "reply-all" seemed to have arrived just too late, because my slip-client did not work. Sorry, Timothy From popserver Sat Feb 10 01:06:45 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["954" "Fri" "9" "February" "1996" "17:19:31" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "22" "Re: I found the food numbers!" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id QAA07510 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 16:27:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA19017 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:19:20 +0100 Message-Id: <199602091619.AA19017@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: I found the food numbers! Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 17:19:31 +0100 To Kelly >> Any high quantity of radiation of the latter two classes is likely to >> cause degradation of the food over time. > >Unless of course the fusion fuel you specified doesn't produce neutrons. Off >hand I can't think of a Gama source on the ship, unles we use antimater. In >that case we have a very hard radiation problem in general. I did not mean the radiation hazard of the engine, but the cosmic radiation, since we were talking about shielding. As far as I know Steve was only trying to make clear which kind of radiation could or could not affect the food. >We might have more problems with cosmic radiation, especially on fast ships. > But given the tolerance of the food vs the human crew I don't, think, it >will be a problem. Certainly less than with a farm where the food has to be >kept healthy to grow. May well be, but this whole discussion started because you suggested that stored food would not need shielding. Timothy From popserver Sat Feb 10 01:06:47 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1694" "Fri" "9" "February" "1996" "17:19:19" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "29" "A new way of DEcelerating" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id QAA07541 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 16:27:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA18992 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:19:03 +0100 Message-Id: <199602091619.AA18992@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: A new way of DEcelerating Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 17:19:19 +0100 I'm currently reading a book "Extraterrestials, where are they". It's not a sf and it dicusses the the possibilities of alien life and its exploration of the universe. It also has a chapter about propulsion systems. They came up with several methods for acceleration (about the same as we did) and only one feasable deceleration method, that of pellets being sent 100 years before the real launch. There was another method not found by us, that method had a rather bad theoretical background so they couldn't say if it would work as well as we would like. I have a hard time understanding it, but it has to do with using electromagnetic (EM) coupling of the interstellar PLASMA. It seems that there are also some ions in the ISM. The EM influence of these ions may be somewhat smaller than the normal pressure of the uncharged ISM. It would require a HUGE array of conducting lines, which could be towed (passively) behind the ship. I think, but am not sure that the EM turbulence induced by the lines and the plasma will reduce the speed of the ship. (This system is called the "Alven Propulsion Engine" and was discovered by Drell, Foley and Rutherman in 1965) They calculated that the mass/surface ratio should be less than 1E-9 kg/m^2 if you want to stop in a feasable time, this is of course not very easy to make. They suggest to use 1-micron-diametre wires. So in all, it is a possibility but there have to be done experiments to make sure it will work well enough. Since our ship is assumed to be much heavier than the one the book was suggesting, we need a HUGE (I don't know how huge) array of conducting lines. This method has an attractive side, that of passive braking. Timothy From popserver Sat Feb 10 01:06:48 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2552" "Fri" "9" "February" "1996" "17:19:43" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "50" "Re: Recycling/AI and super human computers" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id QAA07589 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 16:27:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA19036 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:19:35 +0100 Message-Id: <199602091619.AA19036@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Recycling/AI and super human computers Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 17:19:43 +0100 Again to Kelly, >We will do genetic experimentation, and A.I. because both are very >important/valuble. In both cases we will try to be carefull and will make >mistakes. Thats just life. Trying to put some wall that you can only make >stupid A.I.s (assuming we had some way to control that) would be clumbsy and >impractical. Probably as dangerous as a hostile hi I.Q. A.I.. Yes, I was only saying we should be careful, indeed by constantly taking small steps and not by taking big leaps without having a clue what would be possible. This may sound logical but it would make a little difference to use 1E6 or 1E12 neurons when you have enough computing power available. >Humans are a very adaptable species. We will probably be worth trading with. > If not we have no obvious point of friction, so an intelegent A.I. species >that didn't like us, would just leave. (Thou a stupid one might try world >conquest.) What would there be to trade? What would a smart computer need? Indeed it would be smart of them to leave us because we are only a problem for them. But this is only the case if we outnumber them. But what if they got control over vital human needs like electricity or computing power. That would be really weak points for humans. >Are you this paranoid about aliens? How would you deal with a hyper evolved >E.T.? If you don't think we'ld be able to deal with domestic aliens of our >own creation, how can we deal with ultra-E.T.s? I'm never paranoid, I was just sharing a few thoughts and looking what you (or others) thought about it. If these ETs indeed are more evolved and stronger/smarter than we are, then the outcome would more depend on them than on us. (Unless there are just a few) >> I think there is another possibility to control the AI, we let it "live" in >> a virtual reality, which is created by us. So every action the AI >undertakes >> will not be a real one (so no harm to us), but since we can control it's >> input it may never know that it is not real. > >You forget. It isn't a physical creature, it is a data construct. A >'virtual reality' would be very alien to it. It would probably bypass it to >the more natural binary data space. Our physical world of time and space >could seem very alien. Other concepts, like death, have caused some >confusion for advanced A.I. prototypes. I think it would very soon be bored about the binary space. But does it matter how its VR would look? The main idea is that we control its input and we could redirect its output to make it harmless. Timothy From popserver Sat Feb 10 04:02:55 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4175" "Fri" "9" "February" "1996" "17:19:51" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "84" "Re: Hands and brains" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id RAA12757 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:22:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA19053 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:19:40 +0100 Message-Id: <199602091619.AA19053@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Hands and brains Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 17:19:51 +0100 More reply to Kelly >> Are you sure or are you guessing? The story that David wrote, I had heard >> before. It was the reason why I thought (before I read otherwise) that an >> elephant (and a dolphin) had a small brain too. > >Yes, elephants have very large brains with normal sized cells, but the cells >are not aranged in a complex structure, and are not as proportionally large >as humans. Dolphins brains are larger (in mass and proportion) then humans, >and are more structuralu complex, but the complexity isn't in the intelegence >centers. So than the final question is what determines the complexity of the connections? >Look what happened in the past. Technology allowed farming (which used to >take up the bulk of the population) to be done by less than 5% of the pop. > That doesn't mean the other 95% decided to goof off all the time. They just >spend their time doing something else. Only food would not be enough for a humane living, clothes, a house, health, communication, travel and amusement are important too. Nowadays a lot of these things are automated and need less people to operate. These days the first needs for life are more and more automated, so no one has to work after a few decennia but of course the secondary needs aren't that far YET. A lot of people would rather not have to work, when they have a certain minimum (depends per individual) they just want to maintain that and do the things they like. Of course some of them just like to work, but there is a significant difference in wanting to work or having to work. >> Of course I don't have the hands on an experiment that proved it but I find >> it very hard to believe that no one has tried to figure out to what kind of >> radiation the so called greenhouse gasses are most opaque. This very simple >> experiment would show the proof or rebuttal. > >It is not a simple experiment. NASA tried to do some studies comparing >thermal emmisions from earth and space to get a ballence audit. So far the >info is frustratingly inconclusive. Climatologists really have little handel >on what percentage of the earths heat comes from solar heat, or converted >light, or internal heating. Ah, but in that experiment they didn't test the isolating properties of greenhouse gasses. They tested the total result. So since greenhouse gasses do keep the heat in (I'm sure that is tested) they should have conlcuded that there probably were some other mechanisms reducing the effect of heating up. (I've seen graphs showing the amount of CO2 rose significantly since 200 ago) For example a higher amount of CO2 increases the growth of plants, so in total they absorb more light and store it in their leaves instead of reflecting it as heat. >Then again, it was only a few years back that >someone showed the greenhouse effect dosen't work in greenhouses. I heard this before but still don't know how they thought a greenhouse worked. Of course the glass walls are much better of keeping the convective heat in than the greenhouse gasses are in keeping the radiative heat in. >> Did these images show there was no temperature increase or did they show >> that there was no increase due to the so called greenhouse effect. If you >> mean the latter, how can they distinguish between normal and greenhouse >> deviations? > >They showed no detectable global increase in temp. So all these stories about a global temperature increases of 0.2-0.4 C/year are not true? >But in an alien environ those isolated patchs here, could be the norm for the >planet. (It would be worth a lot of study, but no one would want to live >there!) Yes, but it would mean they could not have evolved to higher organisms. >Not for other tree dwelling apes or monkeys, but it is an unusual structure. > but then humans have had a very odd history. trees, to water, to savanas, >and each left odd evolutionary twists ranging from legs, fat distrabution, >noses, weak lower backs, etc.. Maybe thats why we finally developed >intelegence. We were such an adaptable patchwork, that without intelegence >we couldn't use our bodies as well as they were capable of. That's an interesting theory... Timothy From popserver Sat Feb 10 04:02:57 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["8931" "Fri" "9" "February" "1996" "17:19:36" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "180" "Re: Re: Summary" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id RAA12802 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:23:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA19027 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:19:29 +0100 Message-Id: <199602091619.AA19027@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Re: Summary Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 17:19:36 +0100 Also to Kelly >I'm just saying that there is a limit to the amount of information that can >be transmitted inteligably over interstellar distences even is your playing >with all the usable spectrum. Obviously the local star(s) will drown out >most of the frequency bands, given that earth scopes will be looking straight >at it. So we will eiather have to make due with that stars quiet bands, use >incredible amounts of power (you really want to out shout a star?), and use a >lot of low bouad and error correction to make up for interfearence. There indeed will be a limit but is that limit really to small? These SETI-programs seem to scan many bands, and their telescopes are pointed directly at the stars. I assume they have made some calculations about Signal to Noise ratio. I am not saying that it is easy but we were more or less assuming we could use a beam to propell the starship. If we are not able to propell a starship with it we certainly could use it as a transmitter for information. ============================================================================== >> >Thats a possibility. It certianly would be politically less likely to be >> >funded allong its entire history. But given that expenses would be spread >> >out over a longer time it might cost less over a given period of time. >> > >> >I'm surprized you objected to this section thou, since its the only option >> >(i.e. assured routine supply flight) that woulkd allow a colony mission? >> >> I'm just being consequent. > >Consequent? Is that the word you ment? Does that word not exist in English? I meant consistant. ============================================================================== >A simple system like a fuel launcher that only has to work for a couple >months every few deacdes should be able to be automated once its set up. And >making redundant copies will assure acceptable relyability. Also the first >thing eveyone does when entering the system is repair the fuel launcher. In this conclusion you say that it could work automatically for a few months or so. Could we really trust such a big machinery to keep on working for several months (if not a year)? Because when it doesn't, that means we are doomed. Besides that I can recall some one saying that an Earth-based launcher would be better than a ship-based launcher because of the amount of people needed to operate it (and because of the weight that the ship doesn't need to carry, but that isn't discussed here). >I wasn't building a mirror (what i the hell would it be for anyway?), and >colonies need air and water recyclers, housing for humans, furniture, >hospitals, and a lot of other things that a automated platform wouldn't need. What makes an air & water recycler so much more difficult to build than a launcher? Indeed a launcer doesn't need medcine or food but it needs large amounts of well refined fuel. ============================================================================== >> We are not talking about religious groups. --- > >Well obviously only a very 'focused' group of beleavers are going to condem >themselves to perminent imprisionment for a multi-gen cause. I wonder if that is really true, there are many people who have a focused goal, but that doesn't mean that they are no able or not allowed to think for themselves. >> On a multi-gen ship there will also be a scientific crew, they are >> explorers. If then need some practical experience, they will have all the >> time they need. Simulators for shuttles and vehicles could do a great job >> helping them. > >You can't simulate exploring planets in the confines of a vitual reality >simulator, nor can you learn everything about fliying high performance >aircraft without flying them. None of which can be done completly in a sim. > In a multi-gen crew. Nothing anout exploration, not even seeing a real sky >or horizon would be familure to them. Indeed they would not have experience walking through the landscape etc. But they could learn fast enough. A multi-gen ship would not need to examine the star-system within a small period. If they wanted they could take a few generations. They would be excellent objective observers since they wouldn't know very well what Earth was like. Flying aircrafts perfectly isn't necessary, as long as the flight and landing is reasonable smooth that is enough. >> It's a big risk trusting your live to a automated system on which you would >> have no control. A single programming error can shut down the power source >> and there would be no one to turn it on again. > >Compared to the dangers of a colony, thats trivial. At least one has the idea that it can do something about it when living in a space colony. And why should a space colony be so significantly more dangerous than a 5 year flight in space? >I agree that hibernation is risky technically and unsafe. But that doesn't >effect its political risk. Politics is about impressions, not realities. The media would certainly point at all possible difficulties, certainly such obvious ones. ============================================================================= >>When there is life it will almost certainly have some acceptable >>temperature. > >Life can survive and thrive in a lot of environments that we could possible >survive. Temps of hundreds of degrees F, radiation, low grav and presure, >deep oceans etc. I don't remember anything in the LIT charter that suggested >an earth like ecosphere. It didn't even have a planet anywhere clse to earth >in mass. The charter was just we found a solar system and people wanted >someone to go and check it out. It never said they'ld want to colonize it. OK, I forgot that. ============================================================================= >> So, do you know how to solve it without having a big industry at the remote >> end of the trip? > >You could save the light high tech parts of the stages (fuel processors, >power systems, etc) and throw away the heavy structure and tanks. That might >allow you to rebuild the heavy stuff in the starsystem from local ores, and >refit it with the salvaged parts of the old stages. I wonder if any part at a rocket engine can be regarded as not hi-tech. And if it is, it still takes quite a while to rebuild and assemble all the parts. You don't want several parts to break down while you are on your way back. >However you should note that staging quickly requiers a HUGE ship. You >quickly might need to mine a starsystem for fuel. It's the use of fusion-fuel that causes this, staging is a result of using fusion fuel. (Just a minor difference) >> How where you going to use that heat then? Does it matter that >> much if you are first tranforming the heat into electricity? > >The Bussard reactors, and the fuels they use; don't produce radiation, heat, >or the rest. The power comes out as charged fast moving particals. Those >particals can be run past a magnetic feild for almost perfect conversion of >the fuels power to electricity (with virtually no thermal load) or released >as a reaction mass. I really wonder how this works, does the LIT-page about this, cover that part? >I've seen several major physivs papers talk about the theoretical consistency >with FTL and time travel, worm holes and the like. Also some are >interpreting the one hole show partical, two hole shows a wave, experiments >as showing ftl feedback. Also by def, quantum shifts of electrons happen >instently. Not exactly, it always takes time to tunnel but at a certain tunnel-length the "travel time" does not become any longer. This indeed, makes it look as if the electron (wave distribution) has travelled faster than light. But it seems that the front of the wave-packet did not move faster than light. But somehow during tunneling the packet became smaller and thus the center of the packet was shifted forward a little. The center of the wave gives the biggest probability of detecting the particle. I can't explain any more right now, since the scientists aren't sure either. In wormholes or other places where space is bended, the local speed of light is still the same. However the global speed may indeed change. The same thing happens when you are moving (at near light speed). If we could bend (warp) space than indeed global ftl would be possible. But then you would need to prepare a passage before you could fly through it. A ship that would bend its own space would not be able to globally fly ftl because it still needed to move that bended area at a speed slower than light. It's global time would slow down though, so they would think they had crossed the area in a shorter time, but when they would return to their homebase they would notice the same effect as if they had been flying at near light speed. Of course all this assumes that space can be bended enough be artificial and usefull ways. Timothy From popserver Sat Feb 10 04:03:06 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5747" "Fri" "9" "February" "1996" "08:46:54" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "214" "Re: Recycling/AI and super human computers" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: David@interworld.com Received: from www.interworld.com (interworld.com [165.254.130.4]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id RAA13713 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:31:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from hal ([165.254.130.90]) by www.interworld.com (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 0-11464) with SMTP id AAA591; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 08:50:50 -0500 Message-ID: <311B504E.18C9@interworld.com> Organization: InterWorld, Really Cool Stuff Division X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <960208203042_139506872@mail04.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David@interworld.com (David Levine) To: KellySt@aol.com CC: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Recycling/AI and super human computers Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 08:46:54 -0500 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > Humans are a very adaptable species. We will probably be worth trading with. > If not we have no obvious point of friction, so an intelegent A.I. species > that didn't like us, would just leave. (Thou a stupid one might try world > conquest.) > > Are you this paranoid about aliens? How would you deal with a hyper evolved > E.T.? If you don't think we'ld be able to deal with domestic aliens of our > own creation, how can we deal with ultra-E.T.s? > This was forwarded to me recently. You guys may have seen it before. If so, sorry. It's the first time I saw it. This bit of the MiniLIT discussion reminded me of it: -David ________________________________________________________________ _______________ From: Stecyk-Ramos, Polly on Tue, Jan 23, 1996 9:06 AM Subject: FW: Meat To: am@es; Anne Gillies; Berman, Andrea; DLynn.El_Segundo@xerox.com; Fitts, David; Hwang, Erica; LEN9310@ACS.TAMU.EDU; Mom; Parsons, Carmen; STECYK AMY NATALIA Rather imaginative - enjoy! ________________________________________________________________ _______________ light humor: Imagine if you will... the leader of the fifth invader force speaking to the commander in chief... "They're made out of meat." "Meat?" "Meat. They're made out of meat." "Meat?" "There's no doubt about it. We picked several from different parts of the planet, took them aboard our recon vessels, probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." "That's impossible. What about the radio signals? The messages to the stars." "They use the radio waves to talk, but the signals don't come from them. The signals come from machines." "So who made the machines? That's who we want to contact." "They made the machines. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Meat made the machines." "That's ridiculous. How can meat make a machine? You're asking me to believe in sentient meat." "I'm not asking you, I'm telling you. These creatures are the only sentient race in the sector and they're made out of meat." "Maybe they're like the Orfolei. You know, a carbon-based intelligence that goes through a meat stage." "Nope. They're born meat and they die meat. We studied them for several of their life spans, which didn't take too long. Do you have any idea the life span of meat?" "Spare me. Okay, maybe they're only part meat. You know, like the Weddilei. A meat head with an electron plasma brain inside." "Nope. We thought of that, since they do have meat heads like the Weddilei. But I told you, we probed them. They're meat all the way through." "No brain?" "Oh, there is a brain all right. It's just that the brain is made out of meat!" "So... what does the thinking?" "You're not understanding, are you? The brain does the thinking. The meat." "Thinking meat! You're asking me to believe in thinking meat!" "Yes, thinking meat! Conscious meat! Loving meat. Dreaming meat. The meat is the whole deal! Are you getting the picture?" "Omigod. You're serious then. They're made out of meat." "Finally, Yes. They are indeed made out meat. And they've been trying to get in touch with us for almost a hundred of their years." "So what does the meat have in mind?" "First it wants to talk to us. Then I imagine it wants to explore the universe, contact other sentients, swap ideas and information. The usual." "We're supposed to talk to meat?" "That's the idea. That's the message they're sending out by radio. 'Hello. Anyone out there? Anyone home?' That sort of thing." "They actually do talk, then. They use words, ideas, concepts?" "Oh, yes. Except they do it with meat." "I thought you just told me they used radio." "They do, but what do you think is on the radio? Meat sounds. You know how when you slap or flap meat it makes a noise? They talk by flapping their meat at each other. They can even sing by squirting air through their meat." "Omigod. Singing meat. This is altogether too much. So what do you advise?" "Officially or unofficially?" "Both." "Officially, we are required to contact, welcome, and log in any and all sentient races or multibeings in the quadrant, without prejudice, fear, or favor. Unofficially, I advise that we erase the records and forget the whole thing." "I was hoping you would say that." "It seems harsh, but there is a limit. Do we really want to make contact with meat?" "I agree one hundred percent. What's there to say?" `Hello, meat. How's it going?' But will this work? How many planets are we dealing with here?" "Just one. They can travel to other planets in special meat containers, but they can't live on them. And being meat, they only travel through C space. Which limits them to the speed of light and makes the possibility of their ever making contact pretty slim. Infinitesimal, in fact." "So we just pretend there's no one home in the universe." "That's it." "Cruel. But you said it yourself, who wants to meet meat? And the ones who have been aboard our vessels, the ones you have probed? You're sure they won't remember?" "They'll be considered crackpots if they do. We went into their heads and smoothed out their meat so that we're just a dream to them." "A dream to meat! How strangely appropriate, that we should be meat's dream." "And we can mark this sector unoccupied." "Good. Agreed, officially and unofficially. Case closed. Any others? Anyone interesting on that side of the galaxy?" "Yes, a rather shy but sweet hydrogen core cluster intelligence in a class nine star in G445 zone. Was in contact two galactic rotation ago, wants to be friendly again." "They always come around." "And why not? Imagine how unbearably, how unutterably cold the universe would be if one were all alone." From popserver Sat Feb 10 04:03:09 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6694" "Fri" "9" "February" "1996" "09:46:32" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "177" "Power" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: David@interworld.com Received: from www.interworld.com (interworld.com [165.254.130.4]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id RAA13723 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:31:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from hal ([165.254.130.90]) by www.interworld.com (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 0-11464) with SMTP id AAA624; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 09:50:28 -0500 Message-ID: <311B5E48.2278@interworld.com> Organization: InterWorld, Really Cool Stuff Division X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199602090938.AA01341@student.utwente.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David@interworld.com (David Levine) To: Timothy van der Linden CC: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Power Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 09:46:32 -0500 Hey, gang. This is from the Jan 29, 1996 issue of The Wall Street Journal. (Section A; Page 7A, Column 2). It's also been on ABC news. There seems to be a lot of controvery over this, and no one's quite sure what to make of it yet. A lot of people say it's the old cold fusion thing again, and that 1000+ watt readings must be in error, because the water in the device isn't getting really hot. Who knows. Anyway, it's interesting nonetheless. -David ======================================================== BY JERRY E. BISHOP Staff Reporter of The Wall Street Journal To anyone who remembers the 1989 uproar over cold fusion, it's deja vu all over again. A bottle no bigger than a man's fist is creating an unusual stir among power generation engineers. The bottle is filled with ordinary water and microscopic palladium coated beads. When a little electric current trickles through the bottle, several hundred times as much power starts coming out in the form of heat - that is, if one cares to believe the instruments attached to the bottle. 'No One Knows Why' The instrument readings are enough however, to draw the interest of engineers at a handful of major companies and to prompt at least two university laboratories to attempt to figure out what's going on inside the bottle. "It appears on the surface that it works, but no one knows why," says Quinton Bowles, professor of mechanical engineering at the University of Missouri in Kansas City. The little bottle is known as a Patterson Power Cell, named for its inventor, James A. Patterson, a 74 year old chemist who lives in Sarasota, Fla. Dr. Patterson has turned his power cell over to a startup Clean Energy Technologies Inc. in Dallas headed by his grandson, James W. Reding 26. Mr. Reding is reticent, except to say that CETI is negotiating to license rights to two utilities that he declines to name and to Motorola Inc. A Motorola spokeswoman says, "We wouldn't confirm such a report even if it were true." And so it goes in the tumultuous realm of cold fusion. In 1989 two University of Utah electrochemists Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons, triggered the whole cold fusion uproar by saying they had managed to produce nuclear fusion at ordinary room temperatures, using water as a fuel. The notion of a cheap and inexhaustible new source of energy sparked an avalanche of headlines and accolades only to fall into disrepute when others found the work to be irreproducible. Shunned by their colleagues in Utah, Messrs. Fleischmann and Pons retreated to a new cold fusion lab in southern France. 'I Don't Buy It' The Patterson Power Cell differs in some key ways from the Utah approach, but in some quarters, it raises the same level of skepticism. "It's been a long time since anybody tried to sell me the Brooklyn Bridge," says materials scientist Howard K. Birnbaum, who saw the cell demonstrated last October. "I didn't buy it then, and I don't buy it now." Dr. Birnbaum, director of the Materials Research Laboratory at the University of Illinois's Urbana campus, adds that "as far as I can see, there's nothing new going on that would justify [claims] that more energy is coming out than is going in." Yet supporters say something is going on inside the little heat producing bottle. As with the Utah apparatus, it's claimed that the bottle produces an excess of power as it electrolyzes, or breaks down, water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen atoms. But unlike the controversial and unpredictable Utah experiments, The Patterson cell can be turned on and off seemingly at will. Several working devices built by Dr. Patterson have been made available to two teams. "This is the first time what we have a system that seems to work every time," says a nuclear chemist who consults to utilities. The cell's reliability, which would allow scientists to manipulate it, "gives us our first chance to see if this [phenomenon] involves a nuclear reaction," he explains. Moreover, the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, which has flatly said that cold fusion, like perpetual motion, is impossible and unpatentable, has issued a patent on the gadget. Although both the original Utah devices and the Patterson cell involve the electrolysis of water, there are marked differences. The electrodes in the original devices were small rods of palladium surrounded by coils of platinum wire, and these were hung in a bath of "heavy" water in which the hydrogen is a heavy form called deuterium. The Patterson cell, instead of using palladium rods, is filled with microscopic plastic beads coated with a thin layer of palladium sandwiched between two layers of nickel. And most significantly, it's filled with ordinary water made of "light" hydrogen atoms. In both cases, the hydrogen atoms released by the electrolysis are soaked up by the palladium and/or nickel. It's inside the metal that some kind of energy releasing phenomenon is claimed to take place. A year ago, shortly after CETI was formed, Mr. Reding was touting the Patterson cell as a "coldfusion" system. He has since dropped that claim and now says that "we believe it is something entirely different." He declines to elaborate. A cold-fusion claim implies that the hydrogen atoms are being forced to fuse, a nuclear reaction that usually occurs at 50 million degrees. Physicists say that if the claims were true, the cold-fusion researchers would die from the intense nuclear radiation that would result. The Patterson cell might have been dismissed as easily as other reputed "cold-fusion" apparatus. But Mr. Reding and his colleagues have been bold enough to demonstrate it at three technical conferences in the last nine months. Most cold-fusionists are reluctant to show off their devices, because they are never sure whether or when they will work. Last month, CETI's Mr. Reding showed off a new Patterson cell at an annual gathering of generating equipment manufacturers in Anaheim, Calif. It stood about four inches high and one inch in diameter and held about three tablespoons of the tiny beads. People who watched demonstrations that lasted from 30 minutes to two hours say the instruments indicated that, after subtracting the electricity needed to run pumps and fans, about 0.1 to 1.5 watts of power went into the cell itself, while the heat output was 450 to 1,300 watts. The dubious Dr. Birnbaum at the University of Illinois says that though the cold-fusion claims are "atrocious" Science, the Patterson-cell people "may have stumbled on something else. If so, I hope they are successful and make a lot of money. If not, this ought to be exposed as flimflam." From popserver Sat Feb 10 04:03:12 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1431" "Fri" "9" "February" "1996" "11:32:12" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "32" "Re: Recycling/AI and super human computers" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: David@interworld.com Received: from www.interworld.com (interworld.com [165.254.130.4]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id RAA13733 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:31:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from hal ([165.254.130.90]) by www.interworld.com (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 0-11464) with SMTP id AAA620; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 11:36:11 -0500 Message-ID: <311B770C.1855@interworld.com> Organization: InterWorld, Really Cool Stuff Division X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199602091619.AA19036@student.utwente.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David@interworld.com (David Levine) To: Timothy van der Linden CC: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Recycling/AI and super human computers Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 11:32:12 -0500 Timothy van der Linden wrote: > >> I think there is another possibility to control the AI, we let it "live" in > >> a virtual reality, which is created by us. So every action the AI > >undertakes > >> will not be a real one (so no harm to us), but since we can control it's > >> input it may never know that it is not real. > > > >You forget. It isn't a physical creature, it is a data construct. A > >'virtual reality' would be very alien to it. It would probably bypass it to > >the more natural binary data space. Our physical world of time and space > >could seem very alien. Other concepts, like death, have caused some > >confusion for advanced A.I. prototypes. > > I think it would very soon be bored about the binary space. But does it > matter how its VR would look? The main idea is that we control its input and > we could redirect its output to make it harmless. > > Timothy So the "VR" for the AI is not the same as "VR" for us. It's "Virtual Binary" or whatever. Interesting. But I see a problem. For example, we create an advanced AI to control the ship for decisions that need to be made too quickly for us to do. In order to provide a "buffer zone", the AI manipulates virtual controls for the ship instead of real ones. If we approve of the manipulation, we do it to the ship. The problem is that this requires a human "in-the-loop", and we wind up defeating the purpose that we even have an AI for. From popserver Sun Feb 11 00:20:02 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1594" "Sun" "11" "February" "1996" "01:16:23" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "35" "Re: Recycling/AI and super human computers" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id QAA04823 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 16:17:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA21720 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 11 Feb 1996 01:16:17 +0100 Message-Id: <199602110016.AA21720@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Recycling/AI and super human computers Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 01:16:23 +0100 To David >So the "VR" for the AI is not the same as "VR" for us. >It's "Virtual Binary" or whatever. Interesting. It could be the same, but it doesn't have to be. Although the nature of the brain may be digital its organisation is almost analog or continuous. So I think that depending on it's input sources any environment would be familiar, it only depends on what it gets to see first. Of course after a while when it has seen several environments, it can choose what it likes best, it may indeed be the binary space because of its speed but it may just as well be the natural space because of its even greater complexity. >But I see a problem. > >For example, we create an advanced AI to control the >ship for decisions that need to be made too quickly >for us to do. In order to provide a "buffer zone", >the AI manipulates virtual controls for the ship instead >of real ones. If we approve of the manipulation, we >do it to the ship. The problem is that this requires >a human "in-the-loop", and we wind up defeating the >purpose that we even have an AI for. Indeed, if one use VR to be on the save side, there is always some one needed to control the output. Of course we may assume that if after a certain trial period no threatening outputs where discovered, it could be relatively save to allow certain decisions to be executed directly. A bigger problem may be that the AI does not like to be captured in cyber space and decides to kill itself in some way. Or if its really smart, it could pretend be nice, but as soon as we released it a bit it could take revenge. Timothy From popserver Sun Feb 11 00:20:04 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["729" "Sun" "11" "February" "1996" "01:16:16" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "16" "Cold fusion" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id QAA04818 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 16:17:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA21716 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 11 Feb 1996 01:16:05 +0100 Message-Id: <199602110016.AA21716@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Cold fusion Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 01:16:16 +0100 To David, Now I finally know why extraterrestials haven't come to contact us, thanks. I guess the word meathead is an extraterresitial word... About Cold fusion, I've heard some more stories that cold fusion is not complete nonsense after all. What it is no one seems to know exactly. Of course quantum mechanics has the potential to give us a lot of unknown properties, so it may be the source of some spectacular things. Of course any one using the words cold fusion is laughed at, the media took care of that. But as far as I know there are still people looking at it, but of course they do it rather silently. There is also some info about it on the Web, I haven't read it though, but have wandered along it once. Timothy From popserver Sun Feb 11 21:04:32 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3722" "Sun" "11" "February" "1996" "15:56:48" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "93" "Re: Hands and brains" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id MAA25038 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 12:59:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA18567; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 15:56:48 -0500 Message-ID: <960211155646_219513469@mail02.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Hands and brains Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 15:56:48 -0500 To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) > > More reply to Kelly > > >> Are you sure or are you guessing? The story that David wrote, I had heard > >> before. It was the reason why I thought (before I read otherwise) that an > >> elephant (and a dolphin) had a small brain too. > > > >Yes, elephants have very large brains with normal sized cells, but the cells > >are not aranged in a complex structure, and are not as proportionally large > >as humans. Dolphins brains are larger (in mass and proportion) then humans, > >and are more structuralu complex, but the complexity isn't in the intelegence > >centers. > > So than the final question is what determines the complexity of the connections? Yes and why it develops. > >> Of course I don't have the hands on an experiment that proved it but I find > >> it very hard to believe that no one has tried to figure out to what kind of > >> radiation the so called greenhouse gasses are most opaque. This very simple > >> experiment would show the proof or rebuttal. > > > >It is not a simple experiment. NASA tried to do some studies comparing > >thermal emmisions from earth and space to get a ballence audit. So far the > >info is frustratingly inconclusive. Climatologists really have little handel > >on what percentage of the earths heat comes from solar heat, or converted > >light, or internal heating. > > Ah, but in that experiment they didn't test the isolating properties of > greenhouse gasses. They tested the total result. So since greenhouse gasses > do keep the heat in (I'm sure that is tested) they should have conlcuded > that there probably were some other mechanisms reducing the effect of > heating up. (I've seen graphs showing the amount of CO2 rose significantly > since 200 ago) > For example a higher amount of CO2 increases the growth of plants, so in > total they absorb more light and store it in their leaves instead of > reflecting it as heat. To my knowledge no one has tested if "greenhouse gasses" do cause a warming of an isolated system. Even if they did, it would be irrelavant to the global climtae issue. > > >Then again, it was only a few years back that > >someone showed the greenhouse effect dosen't work in greenhouses. > > I heard this before but still don't know how they thought a greenhouse worked. > Of course the glass walls are much better of keeping the convective heat in > than the greenhouse gasses are in keeping the radiative heat in. Glass, like greenhouse gases is opage to heat but not visible light. So it was assumed the light heateed the siol, and the heat couldn't radiate out. > >> Did these images show there was no temperature increase or did they show > >> that there was no increase due to the so called greenhouse effect. If you > >> mean the latter, how can they distinguish between normal and greenhouse > >> deviations? > > > >They showed no detectable global increase in temp. > > So all these stories about a global temperature increases of 0.2-0.4 C/year > are not true? Never heard those claims. The worst temp rise claims I hear expected a 1-3 C change in the next half century to century. Never heard anyone claim a .2-.4 C per year change. NASA's equipment could detect a .2 degree change over the last 25-30 years, but didn't see any change. > >But in an alien environ those isolated patchs here, could be the norm for the > >planet. (It would be worth a lot of study, but no one would want to live > >there!) > > Yes, but it would mean they could not have evolved to higher organisms. Not nessisarily. A complex sizable ecology could evolve complex life forms. Just becuse its based on something very weird doesn't change that. Kelly From popserver Sun Feb 11 21:04:34 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["87" "Sun" "11" "February" "1996" "15:56:23" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "3" "Re: A new way of DEcelerating" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com (emout09.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.24]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id MAA25044 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 12:59:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA15657; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 15:56:23 -0500 Message-ID: <960211155622_219513214@emout09.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: A new way of DEcelerating Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 15:56:23 -0500 Tim, Are their any numbers on how much power per thrust the magnetic break would take? From popserver Sun Feb 11 21:04:35 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["7364" "Sun" "11" "February" "1996" "15:56:36" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "176" "Re: Re: Summary" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.12]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id NAA25071 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 13:00:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA11897; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 15:56:36 -0500 Message-ID: <960211155636_219513358@emout04.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Re: Summary Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 15:56:36 -0500 Also to Kelly > > >I'm just saying that there is a limit to the amount of information that can > >be transmitted inteligably over interstellar distences even is your playing > >with all the usable spectrum. Obviously the local star(s) will drown out > >most of the frequency bands, given that earth scopes will be looking straight > >at it. So we will eiather have to make due with that stars quiet bands, use > >incredible amounts of power (you really want to out shout a star?), and use a > >lot of low bouad and error correction to make up for interfearence. > > There indeed will be a limit but is that limit really to small? These > SETI-programs seem to scan many bands, and their telescopes are pointed > directly at the stars. I assume they have made some calculations about > Signal to Noise ratio. I am not saying that it is easy but we were more or > less assuming we could use a beam to propell the starship. If we are not > able to propell a starship with it we certainly could use it as a > transmitter for information. I wasn't assuming we would be using a propulsion beam, much less build one in the target systems. You've pretty wel convinced me that, that isn't practical. SETI wasn't expecting to download the output of a couple hundred researchers and all there raw data. I know bandwidth is a problem on the hubble and the other remote platforms (they use data filtering to skim out the desired parts, and everyone prays they selected the right parts) so I assume the problem would also exist for a starship. ============================================================================== > > >A simple system like a fuel launcher that only has to work for a couple > >months every few deacdes should be able to be automated once its set up. And > >making redundant copies will assure acceptable relyability. Also the first > >thing eveyone does when entering the system is repair the fuel launcher. > > In this conclusion you say that it could work automatically for a few months > or so. Could we really trust such a big machinery to keep on working for > several months (if not a year)? Because when it doesn't, that means we are > doomed. Besides that I can recall some one saying that an Earth-based > launcher would be better than a ship-based launcher because of the amount of > people needed to operate it (and because of the weight that the ship doesn't > need to carry, but that isn't discussed here). Sure, we have a lot of big mechanical systems experience and the launcher is very simple and has very few moving parts. The complex part would be the minning and construction parts, and the crews will be around to supervise that. ============================================================================== > >> On a multi-gen ship there will also be a scientific crew, they are > >> explorers. If then need some practical experience, they will have all the > >> time they need. Simulators for shuttles and vehicles could do a great job > >> helping them. > > > >You can't simulate exploring planets in the confines of a vitual reality > >simulator, nor can you learn everything about fliying high performance > >aircraft without flying them. None of which can be done completly in a sim. > > In a multi-gen crew. Nothing about exploration, not even seeing a real sky > >or horizon would be familure to them. > > Indeed they would not have experience walking through the landscape etc. But > they could learn fast enough. A multi-gen ship would not need to examine the > star-system within a small period. If they wanted they could take a few > generations. They would be excellent objective observers since they wouldn't > know very well what Earth was like. Flying aircrafts perfectly isn't > necessary, as long as the flight and landing is reasonable smooth that is > enough. Thats like giving a navy TomCat fighter and mission to someone whos never been out of doors, much less in and aircraft, but has played the sim game a lot. (The landings should be especiaslly --- colorfull.) > >> It's a big risk trusting your live to a automated system on which you would > >> have no control. A single programming error can shut down the power source > >> and there would be no one to turn it on again. > > > >Compared to the dangers of a colony, thats trivial. > > At least one has the idea that it can do something about it when living in a > space colony. And why should a space colony be so significantly more > dangerous than a 5 year flight in space? Because a space colony is a 50-100 year flight through space. Same life support needs and risks, just for 10-20 times longer, and with and increasingly old and wornout crew and ship. > >I agree that hibernation is risky technically and unsafe. But that doesn't > >effect its political risk. Politics is about impressions, not realities. > > The media would certainly point at all possible difficulties, certainly such > obvious ones. Not if they liked the program. Media generally don't ask many hard questions of things they agree with. Look at how little media investigation there has been on global warming and greenhouse theories. They are every bit as easy to investigate, yet that seldom is done. Certainly my experience at NASA confirms that. > ============================================================================= > >> So, do you know how to solve it without having a big industry at the remote > >> end of the trip? > > > >You could save the light high tech parts of the stages (fuel processors, > >power systems, etc) and throw away the heavy structure and tanks. That might > >allow you to rebuild the heavy stuff in the starsystem from local ores, and > >refit it with the salvaged parts of the old stages. > > I wonder if any part at a rocket engine can be regarded as not hi-tech. And > if it is, it still takes quite a while to rebuild and assemble all the > parts. You don't want several parts to break down while you are on your way > back. I was thinking the pumps and fuel processors, and high energy power systejms wouldn't weigh as much as the propulsion dishes, tanks, and reinforcing structure. Those heavy parts would be easier to rebuild in systems from local ores. You can design systems to function for a while with failures. With a staged system you'ld just need to transfer fuel to the remaining working boosters. > >However you should note that staging quickly requiers a HUGE ship. You > >quickly might need to mine a starsystem for fuel. > > It's the use of fusion-fuel that causes this, staging is a result of using > fusion fuel. (Just a minor difference) Or any fuel without a much higher power to weight ratio. > >> How where you going to use that heat then? Does it matter that > >> much if you are first tranforming the heat into electricity? > > > >The Bussard reactors, and the fuels they use; don't produce radiation, heat, > >or the rest. The power comes out as charged fast moving particals. Those > >particals can be run past a magnetic feild for almost perfect conversion of > >the fuels power to electricity (with virtually no thermal load) or released > >as a reaction mass. > > I really wonder how this works, does the LIT-page about this, cover that part? Don't remember. I'm sure I've discused it a few times and went into some details on my old web page. Kelly From popserver Mon Feb 12 19:06:18 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3265" "Mon" "12" "February" "1996" "18:54:31" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "76" "Re: Hands and brains." "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id JAA01362 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 09:56:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA24700 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 12 Feb 1996 18:54:23 +0100 Message-Id: <199602121754.AA24700@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Hands and brains. Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 18:54:31 +0100 To Kelly, >>So than the final question is what determines the complexity of the >>connections? > >Yes and why it develops. I think the latter is clear, being able to use your braincells more efficient is a clear evolutional advantage. Or did you mean something different? >> Ah, but in that experiment they didn't test the isolating properties of >> greenhouse gasses. They tested the total result. So since greenhouse gasses >> do keep the heat in (I'm sure that is tested) they should have conlcuded >> that there probably were some other mechanisms reducing the effect of >> heating up. (I've seen graphs showing the amount of CO2 rose significantly >> since 200 ago) >> For example a higher amount of CO2 increases the growth of plants, so in >> total they absorb more light and store it in their leaves instead of >> reflecting it as heat. > >To my knowledge no one has tested if "greenhouse gasses" do cause a warming >of an isolated system. I think that experiments have been done many years ago. I've read in several books what I wrote before: Greenhouse gasses are more opaque planetary radiation than for solar radiation. This implies that the volume in which the greenhouse gas is present becomes warmer than if it was a normal gas. >Even if they did, it would be irrelavant to the global climtae issue. I can't follow that, or are you saying that Earth's atmosphere isn't an isolated system in this context. >>>Then again, it was only a few years back that >>>someone showed the greenhouse effect dosen't work in greenhouses. >> >>I heard this before but still don't know how they thought a greenhouse >>worked. >>Of course the glass walls are much better of keeping the convective heat in >>than the greenhouse gasses are in keeping the radiative heat in. > >Glass, like greenhouse gases is opage to heat but not visible light. So it >was assumed the light heateed the siol, and the heat couldn't radiate out. But why isn't that true then? Or is it because the heat can radiate out but only not as fast? >Never heard those claims. The worst temp rise claims I hear expected a 1-3 C >change in the next half century to century. Never heard anyone claim a .2-.4 >C per year change. NASA's equipment could detect a .2 degree change over the >last 25-30 years, but didn't see any change. It may well be that my numbers are wrong and should indeed be more like 4 degrees per century but anyhow, they are an increase. And I heard several times that the global temperature was increasing (although not necessary caused by the greenhouse effect). Now I only wonder why NASA's measurement shows something different than other measurements of which I don't recall the source. >>>But in an alien environ those isolated patchs here, could be the norm for >>>the planet. (It would be worth a lot of study, but no one would want to live >>>there!) >> >> Yes, but it would mean they could not have evolved to higher organisms. > >Not nessisarily. A complex sizable ecology could evolve complex life forms. > Just becuse its based on something very weird doesn't change that. I meant that higher organisms could not evolutionize in small areas because there would be not enough food for a population large enough to overcome inbreading. Timothy From popserver Mon Feb 12 19:06:20 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2096" "Mon" "12" "February" "1996" "18:54:39" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "59" "Re: A new way of DEcelerating" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id JAA01358 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 09:55:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA24714 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 12 Feb 1996 18:54:32 +0100 Message-Id: <199602121754.AA24714@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: A new way of DEcelerating Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 18:54:39 +0100 >Are their any numbers on how much power per thrust the magnetic break would >take? I'm not certain if you understood the mechanism. It seems that I didn't either: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now looking at the formulas again, I notice that the plasma needs to move traverse to the flightpath and my assumption of towing the wires behind the ship is probably not right either. They need to be in a network in front of the ship (the plane of the net is perpendicular to the direction of movement.) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The interstallar plasma is moving, don't ask me why or whereto but the book says it does. What we do is use the magnetic field component that is traverse to the velocity of the ship. /\ || ---------------- moving conducting wire X O X O X O X O magnetic field lines going up or down or aside If the field lines are perpendicular to the direction the wires are moving, then an electric current will start to flow in these wires. The electric resistance turns this current into heat and radiates it away in all directions. All that heat comes from the kinetic energy of the starship and thus the ship slows down. They use the following formula: Drag force= rho V Va A rho=mass density of the plasma V=ships velocity Va="Alfven" velocity=Sqrt[B^2/(4 Pi rho)]=10 km/sec B=traverse magnetic field A=frontal area of the net They use also another way of writing: Drag force = Sqrt(Dh Dm) Dh=hydronamic drag= rho V^2 A (Dh=normal drag due to mass-collisions) Dm=magnetic drag = A B^2/(4 Pi) This system looks a lot like the solid plate in front of the ship catching the ISM to decelerate. The book tries to explain that this magnetic sister may be more usefull due to the size:mass ratio. While one can use thin wires to make use of the magnetic field, one needs a rather thick plane to stop fast moving particles. By the way, Steve, would it be possible for you to explain how a normal magnetic scoop could be constructed. Timothy From popserver Mon Feb 12 19:06:23 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5214" "Mon" "12" "February" "1996" "18:54:48" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "110" "Re: Re: Summary" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id JAA01400 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 09:56:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA24721 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 12 Feb 1996 18:54:38 +0100 Message-Id: <199602121754.AA24721@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Re: Summary Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 18:54:48 +0100 To Kelly, >I wasn't assuming we would be using a propulsion beam, much less build one in >the target systems. You've pretty wel convinced me that, that isn't >practical. Oh yes, it was Kevin who wants to use it. But you do use it in the next part, or is that only for a relative short acceleration period? >SETI wasn't expecting to download the output of a couple hundred researchers >and all there raw data. I know bandwidth is a problem on the hubble and the >other remote platforms (they use data filtering to skim out the desired >parts, and everyone prays they selected the right parts) so I assume the >problem would also exist for a starship. OK, could a satellite in a far orbit around TC be a possibility to overcome the interferring radiation of TC? If we can distinguish big planets from their Sun many lightyears away, I think we can also distinguish some signals of a strong satellite in an orbit beyond the TC-analog of Pluto. ============================================================================== >> Could we really trust such a big machinery to keep on working for >> several months (if not a year)? > >Sure, we have a lot of big mechanical systems experience and the launcher is >very simple and has very few moving parts. The complex part would be the >minning and construction parts, and the crews will be around to supervise >that. It may have few moving parts, but so does a rocket engine. How many rocket engines will be able to work continously for half a year? I imagine such a launcher as an electromagnetic pipeline say 100 km in length and 10 cm in diameter. This is about 10 times as long as the accelerator at CERN. It's diameter is probably many times more. I think we won't reach much more than .5c because at CERN it takes several 1000 turns to get the particles to move that fast. I'm not sure if we need a vacuum assuming we use something like our moon to build the launcher on. But if we do, it means a lot of moving objects (I'm not sure though how high-vacuum pumps do work). On the other hand there is a lot of electronics involved to control al the machinery. Can we be sure that there won't be a fuse that burns through? (I assume there won't be any fuses, since they aren't allowed to burn through anyway) To make an anology, could a nuclear reactor work without anyone present, for half a year? (Limited remote control could be allowed) Besides all this, building such an accelerator is pretty high tech. And you are constantly saying that that isn't possible. ============================================================================== >> star-system within a small period. If they wanted they could take a few >> generations. They would be excellent objective observers since they >> wouldn't >> know very well what Earth was like. Flying aircrafts perfectly isn't >> necessary, as long as the flight and landing is reasonable smooth that is >> enough. > >Thats like giving a navy TomCat fighter and mission to someone whos never >been out of doors, much less in and aircraft, but has played the sim game a >lot. (The landings should be especiaslly --- colorfull.) What I've seen from these simulations, is that they can be quite realistic. g-forces, ever more perfect visual environments. A few weaks ago I saw that there where special simulations for landings on a flightdeck (talk about difficult landings). Maybe the simulations aren't 100% real but I think that 90% is close enough. >> space colony. And why should a space colony be so significantly more >> dangerous than a 5 year flight in space? > >Because a space colony is a 50-100 year flight through space. Same life >support needs and risks, just for 10-20 times longer, and with and >increasingly old and wornout crew and ship. Yes, but you would be able to repair or rebuild things. >Not if they liked the program. Media generally don't ask many hard questions >of things they agree with. Look at how little media investigation there has >been on global warming and greenhouse theories. They are every bit as easy >to investigate, yet that seldom is done. Certainly my experience at NASA >confirms that. Media also like to tackle plans that seem to look OK. Besides why wouldn't they like the idea to build a colony there. Almost (or completely) freezing people to revive them gives a nasty taste to many people. All this assumes that one can hibernate which seems to me just as possible as anti-matter-engines to you. ============================================================================= >I was thinking the pumps and fuel processors, and high energy power systejms >wouldn't weigh as much as the propulsion dishes, tanks, and reinforcing >structure. Those heavy parts would be easier to rebuild in systems from >local ores. Yes, but aren't these high-tech parts? Does an airplane have any low-tech parts (except the chairs)? All these parts have high specifications, also the construction needs to be perfect. >> It's the use of fusion-fuel that causes this, staging is a result of using >> fusion fuel. (Just a minor difference) > >Or any fuel without a much higher power to weight ratio. Do you have a better idea, that I don't know of... :) Timothy From popserver Mon Feb 12 19:06:32 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3896" "Mon" "12" "February" "1996" "11:51:14" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "78" "LIT TC Project (fwd)" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id KAA02812 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 10:12:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 12 Feb 96 11:51:26 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: interstellar drive group , David@interworld.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 , KellySt@aol.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com, Steve VanDevender , T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: LIT TC Project (fwd) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 11:51:14 -0600 (CST) recieved and fwd. please add this person to your LIT mail list. he seems sincere. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 17:57:41 -0600 From: L. Parker To: Tex Houston Subject: LIT TC Project Hi Kevin, I am a little new here and have been reading through older postings as fast as I can. So if I duplicate an issue or repeat a question that has already been answered please excuse me. Is there an updated version of Kelly Starks' proposed configuration for Asimov? It seems some major profile changes have been made since he posted it in '94. Have you compared simple solar pumped mechanical lasers to the microwave generators? They would not transmit power as effectively, but it seems to me that they could be massed produced in HUGE numbers to provide more than enough power and remove the need for quite so much magnetic shielding. BTW, I am not sure depending on shielding generated by an external wire mesh dish is such a good idea. As Kelly pointed out in his early design proposal, we don't really know what the composition of interstellar space is. Suppose that just occasionally we run into something bigger than the shield can deflect, or a pocket of denser media which imparts more kinetic energy to the structure than it is capable of abosrbing...might be a good idea to combine both shielding ideas (mass/magnetic) as well as any other built in redundancy we can come up with. Matter of fact, I am not too fond of the idea of the mesh period, too many things can/might/will go wrong with it. Sure would be nice if we could focus magnetic fields over a long (1000 km) distance. That might even allow us to resuscitate the idea of using a RAM scoop. Most of the postings I have read seem to assume a period of coasting in all configurations, why? It would be far simpler to design for continuous 1 G acceleration for the duration of the mission. It might even be agood idea to DESIGN for operation at up to 3 or 4 G for extended periods (Emergency Contingency Planning). Okay, now for some REALLY strange questions... 1) Has anyone calculated the mass density of matter impacting the ship at ..99 c and computed how much and what kinds of primary, secondary, and Cherenkov radiation would be generated? CAN we provide that much shielding? How about blue shifted free radiation? Wouldn't there be a great deal of radiation in the x-ray and gamma ray bands? Can we shield against it? Also remember that at relativistic velocities the event horizon contracts for and aft, concentrating the radiation exposure there. 2) What is the particle density in the various speed regimes? Is there a minimum speed at which the density would become great enough to initiate an EXTERNAL fusion reaction similar to a QED-electric REB plasma rocket (page 11 of Kelly's paper)? Now wouldn't that be neat? An air breathing spaceship! 3) Generally, what is the MAXIMUM particle density we could safely use for acceleration? 4) Generally, what is the maximum particle density we could safely navigate? 5) Can we detect increased particle density ahead of our course by any means, and at sufficient range to allow us to generate enough delta v to avoid it? Twould be a shame to lose the first interstellar mission to a cloud of water vapor! Well, enough for now, I have lots more questions, many of which, like some of these, may not be germane, but what the heck, someone has to ask them! :-} Lee Parker +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + + + Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread... + + + +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From popserver Mon Feb 12 20:49:43 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5815" "Mon" "12" "February" "1996" "15:42:48" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "121" "Re: LIT TC Project (fwd)" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Received: from most.fw.hac.com (gw1.magec.com [151.168.2.3]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id MAA15558 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 12:48:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by most.fw.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03294; Mon, 12 Feb 96 15:44:49 EST Received: from unknown(151.168.254.82) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI003234; Mon Feb 12 15:43:07 1996 Received: by most (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12378; Mon, 12 Feb 96 15:43:04 EST Received: from ss4.fw.hac.com(151.168.145.199) by most via smap (V1.5khhunt) id sma012372; Mon Feb 12 15:42:50 1996 Received: from [151.168.146.187] (kgstar) by ss4.uiv (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29126; Mon, 12 Feb 96 15:42:45 EST X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) To: lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, Kevin C Houston Cc: interstellar drive group , David@interworld.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 , KellySt@aol.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com, Steve VanDevender , T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: LIT TC Project (fwd) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:42:48 -0500 Hi Lee, In responce to the message you sent to Kevin. At 11:51 AM 2/12/96, Kevin C Houston wrote: >recieved and fwd. please add this person to your LIT mail list. he seems >sincere. > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 17:57:41 -0600 >From: L. Parker >To: Tex Houston >Subject: LIT TC Project > >Hi Kevin, >I am a little new here and have been reading through older postings as fast >as I can. So if I duplicate an issue or repeat a question that has already >been answered please excuse me. Is there an updated version of Kelly Starks' >proposed configuration for Asimov? It seems some major profile changes have >been made since he posted it in '94. I've been meaning to, but life got in the way. That old draft is very drafty, and needs some correction and updating. You should note though that it is not 'the' ship design, it was my cut at a possible design. My design used Fusion powered drive systems feed from carried fuel and fuel launched ahead of it by a fixed fuel launcher. Some of the ideas listed in their didn't pan out, and the ship itself is not capable of geting to Tau Ceti in a usable periode of time. But a lot of the general systems designs and equipment (hab-deck design, types of exploration ships and equipment, etc..) seem to be the basic concept everyone has tacitly accepted. Thou the others are leaning more toward some sort of microwave powered relativistic drive. Unfortunatly we can't think of one thats likely to work (stoping is a big problem!). In the next draft I hope to upgrade the numbers included in there, add illistrations, and write up associated summary documents for the groups progress to date. (Did you see the draft summary document I sent around?) >Have you compared simple solar pumped mechanical lasers to the microwave >generators? They would not transmit power as effectively, but it seems to me >that they could be massed produced in HUGE numbers to provide more than >enough power and remove the need for quite so much magnetic shielding. How would microwaves vs lasers effect shielding requirements? >BTW, I am not sure depending on shielding generated by an external wire mesh >dish is such a good idea. As Kelly pointed out in his early design proposal, >we don't really know what the composition of interstellar space is. Suppose >that just occasionally we run into something bigger than the shield can >deflect, or a pocket of denser media which imparts more kinetic energy to >the structure than it is capable of abosrbing...might be a good idea to >combine both shielding ideas (mass/magnetic) as well as any other built in >redundancy we can come up with. > >Matter of fact, I am not too fond of the idea of the mesh period, too many >things can/might/will go wrong with it. Sure would be nice if we could focus >magnetic fields over a long (1000 km) distance. That might even allow us to >resuscitate the idea of using a RAM scoop. I'm a little confused. We were considering making the microwave sail/reflector out of mesh, but not the shielding. >Most of the postings I have read seem to assume a period of coasting in all >configurations, why? It would be far simpler to design for continuous 1 G >acceleration for the duration of the mission. It might even be a good idea to >DESIGN for operation at up to 3 or 4 G for extended periods (Emergency >Contingency Planning). In general we have problems generating the thrust needed for continuous G; and since the ship has to drift few the target star system during exploration, we need artificial G anyway. >Okay, now for some REALLY strange questions... > >1) Has anyone calculated the mass density of matter impacting the ship at >.99 c and computed how much and what kinds of primary, secondary, and >Cherenkov radiation would be generated? CAN we provide that much shielding? >How about blue shifted free radiation? Wouldn't there be a great deal of >radiation in the x-ray and gamma ray bands? Can we shield against it? Also >remember that at relativistic velocities the event horizon contracts for and >aft, concentrating the radiation exposure there. > >2) What is the particle density in the various speed regimes? Is there a >minimum speed at which the density would become great enough to initiate an >EXTERNAL fusion reaction similar to a QED-electric REB plasma rocket (page >11 of Kelly's paper)? Now wouldn't that be neat? An air breathing spaceship! > >3) Generally, what is the MAXIMUM particle density we could safely use for >acceleration? > >4) Generally, what is the maximum particle density we could safely navigate? > >5) Can we detect increased particle density ahead of our course by any >means, and at sufficient range to allow us to generate enough delta v to >avoid it? Twould be a shame to lose the first interstellar mission to a >cloud of water vapor! > >Well, enough for now, I have lots more questions, many of which, like some >of these, may not be germane, but what the heck, someone has to ask them! :-} > >Lee Parker > >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >+ + >+ Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread... + >+ + >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Kelly ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Sr. Systems Engineer Magnavox Electronic Systems Company (Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From popserver Wed Feb 14 18:58:03 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4417" "Wed" "14" "February" "1996" "08:25:57" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "108" "Re: " "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Received: from most.fw.hac.com (gw1.magec.com [151.168.2.3]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id FAA25948 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 05:34:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by most.fw.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04813; Wed, 14 Feb 96 08:29:02 EST Received: from unknown(151.168.254.82) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI004726; Wed Feb 14 08:26:48 1996 Received: by most (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02517; Wed, 14 Feb 96 08:26:44 EST Received: from ss4.fw.hac.com(151.168.145.199) by most via smap (V1.5khhunt) id sma002510; Wed Feb 14 08:25:59 1996 Received: from [151.168.146.187] (kgstar) by ss4.uiv (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15965; Wed, 14 Feb 96 08:25:55 EST X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 2 (High) From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) To: lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Cc: Nick@panda1.demon.co.uk, KellySt@aol.com, bmansur@oc.edu, David@interworld.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, stevev@efn.org, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 08:25:57 -0500 At 5:46 PM 2/13/96, L. Parker wrote: >Nick, > >I have been thinking about the problem of changing the configuration of the >sweep field to deceleration mode and have an idea to suggest. > >Suppose that we make a few minor :-) changes: > >1) Design it to be double ended with respect to the Lineac (Stellarator?) so >that either end can be intake or exhaust. > >2) Mount the sweep field equipment generators on a ring at each end of the >ship, slightly ahead of (or behind) the actual inlet/outlet. > >By doing this, we can use the field at the front (?) end during acceleration >and the field at the back during deceleration. With the direction of travel >being to the left in both cases, this would appear like this in acceleration: > > \ > \ > \--------- > | > --------- > / > / > / > >and like this during deceleration: > > \ > \ > \ > ---------- > | > ---------- > / > / > / > >See the attached JPEG file for design modification. > >During the deceleration phase, the field at the front can be reduced and >inverted to maintain a shield for the ship while still funneling reaction >mass into the rear ring. The rear sweep field will provide braking like a >parachute whether or not you actually run the engines. In fact, if you go >into deceleration and don't run the engines for a while, you could actually >replinish onboard reaction mass by simply scooping it up. Ah, we'ld always been assuming the accelerator core could work eaither way (thou only the frount would have a scoop). I'm afriad the double scoops are more trouble then they are worth. Especiall given that we were talking about scops/sails hundreds to thousands of kilometers across. >AS was pointed out (by you?) now it is simply a matter of reversing the >current flow. Looking at drag issues and field dynamics you would want the >ability to "tune" the fields by changing their size and density, do a >particle/mass density calculation on H+ ions entering a ONE sq/km scoop at >.99 c and I think you will find something like 3e14 PARTICLES PER SECOND >(not adjusted for relativistic effects). You MIGHT want to be able to change >this! > >While this CAN be done with wire mesh, it would be far better if we could do >it with fields alone. Then we could dispense with the doble ended design >entirely and probably increase the scoop efficiency as well. As was pointed >out in relation to one of your earlier posts, too bad we don't know how... > >Another thought: I have already mentioned this idea to Kelly but maybe you >might want to look at it also. As an alternative to Kevin's beamed Microwave >proposal, suppose we could generate an MHD field externally along the length >of the ship and using a field design similar in shape to the Aurora project The Aurora's don't generate magnetic fields around themselves. The various designs under testing use internal or exteral scramjets and turbo-ramjets. Not MHD thrusters. >aircraft, generate a fusion rocket outside the ship? Sort of a ring around >the ship's middle spaced apart by some distance through which the RM is >funneled by the sweep field and then compressed by MHD fields until it >achieves fusion density and exhausts past a sharp field break that acts as a >venturi. This sounds like a Bussard Ramscoop, which unfortunatly we couldn't build. >Not to change the subject, but was it you who said something about not being >able to use cyclotrons? I believe acceleration does not occur until exhaust.... > >Lee Parker > >Attachment converted: Macintosh HD:Asimov.jpg (JPEG/JVWR) (000087D2) >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >+ + >+ Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread... + >+ + >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Kelly Starks ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Sr. Systems Engineer Magnavox Electronic Systems Company (Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From popserver Thu Feb 15 04:51:07 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1059" "Wed" "14" "February" "1996" "21:38:32" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "35" "Uh oh :-/" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from mhub2.tc.umn.edu (mhub2.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.52]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id TAA02318 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 19:40:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by mhub2.tc.umn.edu; Wed, 14 Feb 96 21:38:34 -0600 Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Wed, 14 Feb 96 21:38:33 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199602141641.IAA05303@moon.sirius.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: Patricia Corrigan , interstellar drive group , David@interworld.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 , KellySt@aol.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com, Steve VanDevender , T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, Rikki_&_Bob Myaran , "Edward R. Houston" , kanter@winbright.net Subject: Uh oh :-/ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 21:38:32 -0600 (CST) Here we go... I got this message when I logged in: BEGIN Quote NOTICE (1995-02-14): The www.tc.umn.edu Web service is scheduled to be down this coming Sunday, February 18th, from 8am to 11am. We will be reconfiguring filesystems which will require that the /nlhome hierarchies be unavailable during this time. This will NOT affect www.umn.edu Web service -- only personal web pages. END Quote So what do you think? is http://www.umn.edu/nlhome/m056/hous0042 in trouble? what should I Do? should I 1) stand tall and let them find it. 2) hide it, and put it back later. 3) fold now and let the Censors 'win' your input is hereby sought. Please respond soon Kevin 'Tex' Houston -- If they won't protect the _First_, they won't protect _any_. From popserver Thu Feb 15 04:51:12 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["230" "Wed" "14" "February" "1996" "22:55:39" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "7" "Re: A new way of DEcelerating" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id TAA03684 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 19:58:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA27720; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 22:55:39 -0500 Message-ID: <960214225538_423009001@mail04.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: A new way of DEcelerating Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 22:55:39 -0500 ??? Maybe I'm tired, but I still don't understand how this thing works. Sounds like if you can keep dumping the excess heart generated (and keep the thing from folding up) it should be a nice mag brake. --- I think? Kelly From popserver Thu Feb 15 04:51:13 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5276" "Wed" "14" "February" "1996" "22:55:59" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "126" "Re: Hands and brains." "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.12]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id TAA03732 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 19:58:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA02103; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 22:55:59 -0500 Message-ID: <960214225556_423009273@emout04.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Hands and brains. Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 22:55:59 -0500 Subj: Re: Hands and brains. to: Timothy van der Linden > To Kelly, > > >>So than the final question is what determines the complexity of the > >>connections? > > > >Yes and why it develops. > > I think the latter is clear, being able to use your braincells more > efficient is a clear evolutional advantage. Or did you mean something different? Clear advantage for what. I.E. what pushed us to do that much evolving into our brains and tool making. > >> Ah, but in that experiment they didn't test the isolating properties of > >> greenhouse gasses. They tested the total result. So since greenhouse gasses > >> do keep the heat in (I'm sure that is tested) they should have conlcuded > >> that there probably were some other mechanisms reducing the effect of > >> heating up. (I've seen graphs showing the amount of CO2 rose significantly > >> since 200 ago) > >> For example a higher amount of CO2 increases the growth of plants, so in > >> total they absorb more light and store it in their leaves instead of > >> reflecting it as heat. > > > >To my knowledge no one has tested if "greenhouse gasses" do cause a warming > >of an isolated system. > > I think that experiments have been done many years ago. I've read in several > books what I wrote before: Greenhouse gasses are more opaque planetary > radiation than for solar radiation. > This implies that the volume in which the greenhouse gas is present becomes > warmer than if it was a normal gas. Implies, not proves. Atmosphers have many complex interactions, few of which are well understood. So even if the green gases did block radiation from escaping and kept in heat. Would that cause the system to heat or cool? Would it keep the heat in at night but keep it out durring the day? Would this change cause more cloude cover which would effect the balence (it isn't known if clouds heat or cool). How would global wind patterns change? All this stuff interacts, and no one knows how. So even if they knew what the green gases did, they still couldn't tell what the total effect on the system would be. Best you could do is check records for long term trends over the last 200 year (i.e. industrial revolution time.), but that shows no clear pattern, and the data has more holes than solids. > >Even if they did, it would be irrelavant to the global climtae issue. > > I can't follow that, or are you saying that Earth's atmosphere isn't an > isolated system in this context. See above > >>>Then again, it was only a few years back that > >>>someone showed the greenhouse effect dosen't work in greenhouses. > >> > >>I heard this before but still don't know how they thought a greenhouse > >>worked. > >>Of course the glass walls are much better of keeping the convective heat in > >>than the greenhouse gasses are in keeping the radiative heat in. > > > >Glass, like greenhouse gases is opage to heat but not visible light. So it > >was assumed the light heateed the siol, and the heat couldn't radiate out. > > But why isn't that true then? Or is it because the heat can radiate out but > only not as fast? The solar energy doesn't change in bulk to heat. The glass blocks solar heat as well as soil heat. Above all the heat radiation rates were not the dominent effect in the system. > >Never heard those claims. The worst temp rise claims I hear expected a 1-3 C > >change in the next half century to century. Never heard anyone claim a ..2-.4 > >C per year change. NASA's equipment could detect a .2 degree change over the > >last 25-30 years, but didn't see any change. > > It may well be that my numbers are wrong and should indeed be more like 4 > degrees per century but anyhow, they are an increase. And I heard several > times that the global temperature was increasing (although not necessary > caused by the greenhouse effect). Now I only wonder why NASA's measurement > shows something different than other measurements of which I don't recall > the source. The press and ecogroups often report the temperature increase. Science and climatology reports usualy report inconclusive results. But the press and advocacy groups hate that, so they skip over it. I know that NASA was called on the carpet for reporting their data. Tenb Senator (now vice president) Gore gets a lot of his image for his stance on the environment, and in hearing he got VERY nasty to the NASA guys trying to report facts that made him look like an idiot. So they don't mention it anymore, and the press never really picked up on it. UInless you read the journals (or worked at NASA headquarters ;) ) you'ld never have heard it. > >>>But in an alien environ those isolated patchs here, could be the norm for > >>>the planet. (It would be worth a lot of study, but no one would want to live > >>>there!) > >> > >> Yes, but it would mean they could not have evolved to higher organisms. > > > >Not nessisarily. A complex sizable ecology could evolve complex life forms. > > Just becuse its based on something very weird doesn't change that. > > I meant that higher organisms could not evolutionize in small areas because > there would be not enough food for a population large enough to overcome > inbreading. I was assuming the environments were large scale, even global. Kelly From popserver Thu Feb 15 04:51:45 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["7565" "Wed" "14" "February" "1996" "22:56:09" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "178" "Re: Re: Summary" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com (emout04.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.12]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id TAA03791 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 19:59:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA02219; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 22:56:09 -0500 Message-ID: <960214225609_423009497@emout04.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Re: Summary Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 22:56:09 -0500 > To Kelly, > > >I wasn't assuming we would be using a propulsion beam, much less build one in > >the target systems. You've pretty wel convinced me that, that isn't > >practical. > > Oh yes, it was Kevin who wants to use it. But you do use it in the next > part, or is that only for a relative short acceleration period? Next part? I list all of them in the summary, but don't assume any of them will be used. My designs only use fusion drives and fuel launchers. > >SETI wasn't expecting to download the output of a couple hundred researchers > >and all there raw data. I know bandwidth is a problem on the hubble and the > >other remote platforms (they use data filtering to skim out the desired > >parts, and everyone prays they selected the right parts) so I assume the > >problem would also exist for a starship. > > OK, could a satellite in a far orbit around TC be a possibility to overcome > the interferring radiation of TC? If we can distinguish big planets from > their Sun many lightyears away, I think we can also distinguish some signals > of a strong satellite in an orbit beyond the TC-analog of Pluto. Possibly, but if we have a hard time even seeing a planet, what luck will we have trying to see and decript a signal? ============================================================================== > > >> Could we really trust such a big machinery to keep on working for > >> several months (if not a year)? > > > >Sure, we have a lot of big mechanical systems experience and the launcher is > >very simple and has very few moving parts. The complex part would be the > >minning and construction parts, and the crews will be around to supervise > >that. > > It may have few moving parts, but so does a rocket engine. How many rocket > engines will be able to work continously for half a year? Rockets have to be light and high powered. For this system the pumps would be closer to city water pumps than rocket turbo pumps. The accelerator would provide the high speed boost, but none of it would move. > I imagine such a launcher as an electromagnetic pipeline say 100 km in > length and 10 cm in diameter. This is about 10 times as long as the > accelerator at CERN. It's diameter is probably many times more. I think we > won't reach much more than .5c because at CERN it takes several 1000 turns > to get the particles to move that fast. I'm not sure if we need a vacuum > assuming we use something like our moon to build the launcher on. But if we > do, it means a lot of moving objects (I'm not sure though how high-vacuum > pumps do work). > On the other hand there is a lot of electronics involved to control al the > machinery. Can we be sure that there won't be a fuse that burns through? (I > assume there won't be any fuses, since they aren't allowed to burn through > anyway) I'm not clear on the requirment for the launcher. Hopefully it won't need to be that long. I don't think we'ld need speed that high because then the ship would get to far away from the launcher before it got that fast. I think beam presision is the main limitation, but I haven't work on it. > To make an anology, could a nuclear reactor work without anyone present, for > half a year? (Limited remote control could be allowed) Some reators do run for years without direct control. (Some like three mile Island ran much better that way ;) ) The big commercial plants need operating, but thats mainly to adjust for power loads. Soviet subs are fairly automated as I remember. And of course the computer power avalible will be a lot more. Of course if they can't be automated, the ship can't go. > Besides all this, building such an accelerator is pretty high tech. And you > are constantly saying that that isn't possible. Accelerators arn't that high tech. At least not if you arn't interested in super high speeds and partical level interactions. Its basically an electromagnetic cannon. ============================================================================== > >> star-system within a small period. If they wanted they could take a few > >> generations. They would be excellent objective observers since they > >> wouldn't > >> know very well what Earth was like. Flying aircrafts perfectly isn't > >> necessary, as long as the flight and landing is reasonable smooth that is > >> enough. > > > >Thats like giving a navy TomCat fighter and mission to someone whos never > >been out of doors, much less in and aircraft, but has played the sim game a > >lot. (The landings should be especiaslly --- colorfull.) > > What I've seen from these simulations, is that they can be quite realistic. > g-forces, ever more perfect visual environments. A few weaks ago I saw that > there where special simulations for landings on a flightdeck (talk about > difficult landings). Maybe the simulations aren't 100% real but I think that > 90% is close enough. The pilots disagree. They can't simulate G fources well at all, and can sometimes give pilots the wrong reflexes in G manuvers. They are excelent for exersizing a pilot in certain things. Bad in others. > >> space colony. And why should a space colony be so significantly more > >> dangerous than a 5 year flight in space? > > > >Because a space colony is a 50-100 year flight through space. Same life > >support needs and risks, just for 10-20 times longer, and with and > >increasingly old and wornout crew and ship. > > Yes, but you would be able to repair or rebuild things. Same in the ship. Besides, how do you repair the crew when they wear out? > >Not if they liked the program. Media generally don't ask many hard questions > >of things they agree with. Look at how little media investigation there has > >been on global warming and greenhouse theories. They are every bit as easy > >to investigate, yet that seldom is done. Certainly my experience at NASA > >confirms that. > > Media also like to tackle plans that seem to look OK. Besides why wouldn't > they like the idea to build a colony there. A colony with no purpose and tremendous expence? Which locks us into frequent perminent suply runs? Which condems its occupants to dramatically shortend lives of hardship? I think they might find more than a few reasons if they want to. >Almost (or completely) freezing > people to revive them gives a nasty taste to many people. All this assumes > that one can hibernate which seems to me just as possible as > anti-matter-engines to you. Hibernation seems to get talked about with harly a wisper of concern in a lot of groups. Frankly I can't understand why. ============================================================================= > > >I was thinking the pumps and fuel processors, and high energy power systejms > >wouldn't weigh as much as the propulsion dishes, tanks, and reinforcing > >structure. Those heavy parts would be easier to rebuild in systems from > >local ores. > > Yes, but aren't these high-tech parts? Does an airplane have any low-tech > parts (except the chairs)? All these parts have high specifications, also > the construction needs to be perfect. Not really, they are just big structural elements. That should be pretty easy to build from local supplies. > >> It's the use of fusion-fuel that causes this, staging is a result of using > >> fusion fuel. (Just a minor difference) > > > >Or any fuel without a much higher power to weight ratio. > > Do you have a better idea, that I don't know of... :) Unles we come up with matter conversion or warp drives, I think thats about it. Kelly From popserver Thu Feb 15 07:25:56 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6327" "Thu" "15" "February" "1996" "00:01:05" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "148" "Re: Re: Summary" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from mhub2.tc.umn.edu (mhub2.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.52]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id WAA11741 for ; Wed, 14 Feb 1996 22:02:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by mhub2.tc.umn.edu; Thu, 15 Feb 96 00:01:06 -0600 Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Thu, 15 Feb 96 00:01:06 -0600 In-Reply-To: <960214225609_423009497@emout04.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: KellySt@aol.com cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Re: Summary Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 00:01:05 -0600 (CST) On Wed, 14 Feb 1996 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > Tim wrote: > > > > > >> Could we really trust such a big machinery to keep on working for > > >> several months (if not a year)? > > > > > >Sure, we have a lot of big mechanical systems experience and the launcher > is > > >very simple and has very few moving parts. The complex part would be the > > >minning and construction parts, and the crews will be around to supervise > > >that. > > > > It may have few moving parts, but so does a rocket engine. How many rocket > > engines will be able to work continously for half a year? > > Rockets have to be light and high powered. For this system the pumps would > be closer to city water pumps than rocket turbo pumps. The accelerator would > provide the high speed boost, but none of it would move. so one of the questions we have to answer, is whether we should leave the launcher in the target system, or take it with us and add the complexity of an maser array. if we take it with us, we can keep it maintained, if we leave it behind, we might save some energy. > > I imagine such a launcher as an electromagnetic pipeline say 100 km in > > length and 10 cm in diameter. This is about 10 times as long as the > > accelerator at CERN. It's diameter is probably many times more. I think we > > won't reach much more than .5c because at CERN it takes several 1000 turns > > to get the particles to move that fast. I'm not sure if we need a vacuum > > assuming we use something like our moon to build the launcher on. But if we > > do, it means a lot of moving objects (I'm not sure though how high-vacuum > > pumps do work). > > On the other hand there is a lot of electronics involved to control al the > > machinery. Can we be sure that there won't be a fuse that burns through? (I > > assume there won't be any fuses, since they aren't allowed to burn through > > anyway) > > I'm not clear on the requirment for the launcher. Hopefully it won't need to > be that long. I don't think we'ld need speed that high because then the ship > would get to far away from the launcher before it got that fast. I think > beam presision is the main limitation, but I haven't work on it. Tim, why not have a torroidal accelerator with a straight aiming track? The particles could go around the track many times before being thrown out into space. That would make it a smaller device > > Do you have a better idea, that I don't know of... :) > > Unles we come up with matter conversion or warp drives, I think thats about > it. Okay, So i see three semi-respectable drive systems. each of which needs some more work to be productive, each of which requires some technology that we don't have yet, or we can't agree when we might have. 1) The fusion RAIR: Pros: we are closer to fusion than to the next two ideas. Fairly low energy. would have military applications (i.e. the government would fund it) moderate heat load/low rad loaad depending on fuel cycle Cons (basic to the design, for which no reasonable tech solution exits) Slower. even if it gets up to .75 C, will add many years to a flight. and the design only calls for .5 C. requires many hundred tons of relatively rare atoms ( i.e. Li, He, Be,) Or a better Fusion pathway that uses Hydrogen. Tech Limitations: a "Fuel Launcher" (whatever that is) capable of keeping a tight beam of fusion fuel pellets (or gas) on course for .5 to 1 Light-years. Must be re-built in target sytem. Must be automated. 2) the MARS: (SOL > {maser sail} > mid-way point > {Lineac drive} > TC) Build maser array (SOL < {maser sail} < mid-way point < { Maser Sail } < TC) Pros: Allows for continuous thrust. a Faster trip. uses no RM to return. maser sail needed for return is easier to repair than fuel launcher. ship will be much lighter during return trip. No Rad load from engine some military applications Cons: (inherent in the design) Gulps and gobbles energy. Has high heat load. The maser array will be much harder to build than a fuel laucher. Due to higher speeds, more shielding will be needed (esp on return trip) Tech limitations: a "maser array" (whatever that is) capable of keeping a tight beam of microwaves on course for 12 light-years. Must be re-built in target system. Must be automated. (N.B. the return maser array can be smaller / only aim to 6 light-years beacuse the Sol transmitter provides braking force allowing ship to dispense with all RM tanks and lineac core) Requires self-reproducing robots. Capable of making solar panels. 3) Anti-matter. Pros. Excellent energy storage. May allow 1 G thrust missions. has military applications. Cons. (inherent in the design) Excellent energy storage. May explode. Has high Rad load. Tech limitations: Manufacturing and storage of anit-matter is still counted in atoms. Okay, did I miss anything? Here's my suggestion: since each design has some technical limitation on it, let's assume we can solve that problem. Kelly gets a fuel launcher, he only has to tell us how far/fast/much it needs to shoot in order to provide the thrust to his rocket. he does not need to prove it works, or justify it's abilities as reasonable. provided the energy costs etc are accounted for. Kelly also gets to use the fusion cycle and reactor of his choice Kevin gets a maser array capable of aiming +/- 1000 Km / 12 L.Y. (really, could be anything, but I think this is reasonable) Kevin also gets self-reproducing robots until he can figure out how to do without them. Reproduction rate/intelligence level will be discussed later. Tim gets the ability to manufacture and store whatever amount of anti-matter is required. If anti-matter is manufactured in target system, 50% effeiciency is assumed (make 1 Kg matter for every Kg Antimatter) E=mC^2. These items then become the minimum tech basis for our designs. They cannot be built until these problems are solved. Since we cannot possibly solve these particular problems here in this forum, let's just assume them for now, and see where this takes us. I will start working on a MARS addition to my home page. Let's try to refine the design of each of these propulsion systems. Kevin Houston -- Fuck the CDA From popserver Thu Feb 15 18:14:24 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1417" "Thu" "15" "February" "1996" "08:22:46" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "55" "Re: Uh oh :-/" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Received: from most.fw.hac.com (gw1.magec.com [151.168.2.3]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id FAA28351 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 05:29:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by most.fw.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16634; Thu, 15 Feb 96 08:25:16 EST Received: from unknown(151.168.254.82) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI016586; Thu Feb 15 08:24:03 1996 Received: by most (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02595; Thu, 15 Feb 96 08:24:00 EST Received: from ss4.fw.hac.com(151.168.145.199) by most via smap (V1.5khhunt) id sma002571; Thu Feb 15 08:22:48 1996 Received: from [151.168.146.187] (kgstar) by ss4.uiv (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26858; Thu, 15 Feb 96 08:22:44 EST X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) To: Kevin C Houston Cc: Patricia Corrigan , interstellar drive group , David@interworld.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 , KellySt@aol.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com, Steve VanDevender , T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, Rikki_&_Bob Myaran , "Edward R. Houston" , kanter@winbright.net, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Re: Uh oh :-/ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 08:22:46 -0500 Its not clear if they want to censor contents (thou with the new law they are almost forced to, AOL was worried they'ld be forced out of busness),. They may just be doing systems maintenence. But keeping a copy on floppy would probably be a good idea. Kelly At 9:38 PM 2/14/96, Kevin C Houston wrote: >Here we go... >I got this message when I logged in: > >BEGIN Quote > >NOTICE >(1995-02-14): >The www.tc.umn.edu Web service is scheduled to be down this coming Sunday, >February 18th, from 8am to 11am. We will be reconfiguring filesystems >which will require that the /nlhome hierarchies be unavailable during this >time. > >This will NOT affect www.umn.edu Web service -- only personal web pages. > >END Quote > > >So what do you think? is >http://www.umn.edu/nlhome/m056/hous0042 > >in trouble? >what should I Do? should I > >1) stand tall and let them find it. > >2) hide it, and put it back later. > >3) fold now and let the Censors 'win' > >your input is hereby sought. Please respond soon > >Kevin 'Tex' Houston >-- >If they won't protect the _First_, they won't protect _any_. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Sr. Systems Engineer Magnavox Electronic Systems Company (Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From popserver Thu Feb 15 18:14:26 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1218" "Thu" "15" "February" "1996" "08:25:47" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "51" "Re: Uh oh :-/" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Received: from most.fw.hac.com (gw1.magec.com [151.168.2.3]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id FAA28368 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 05:29:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by most.fw.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16773; Thu, 15 Feb 96 08:28:34 EST Received: from unknown(151.168.254.82) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI016697; Thu Feb 15 08:27:10 1996 Received: by most (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02647; Thu, 15 Feb 96 08:27:07 EST Received: from ss4.fw.hac.com(151.168.145.199) by most via smap (V1.5khhunt) id sma002619; Thu Feb 15 08:25:48 1996 Received: from [151.168.146.187] (kgstar) by ss4.uiv (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA27268; Thu, 15 Feb 96 08:25:45 EST X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) To: Kevin C Houston Cc: Patricia Corrigan , interstellar drive group , David@interworld.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 , KellySt@aol.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com, Steve VanDevender , T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, Rikki_&_Bob Myaran , "Edward R. Houston" , kanter@winbright.net Subject: Re: Uh oh :-/ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 08:25:47 -0500 By the way. I can never get to your home page anyway? Kelly At 9:38 PM 2/14/96, Kevin C Houston wrote: >Here we go... >I got this message when I logged in: > >BEGIN Quote > >NOTICE >(1995-02-14): >The www.tc.umn.edu Web service is scheduled to be down this coming Sunday, >February 18th, from 8am to 11am. We will be reconfiguring filesystems >which will require that the /nlhome hierarchies be unavailable during this >time. > >This will NOT affect www.umn.edu Web service -- only personal web pages. > >END Quote > > >So what do you think? is >http://www.umn.edu/nlhome/m056/hous0042 > >in trouble? >what should I Do? should I > >1) stand tall and let them find it. > >2) hide it, and put it back later. > >3) fold now and let the Censors 'win' > >your input is hereby sought. Please respond soon > >Kevin 'Tex' Houston >-- >If they won't protect the _First_, they won't protect _any_. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Sr. Systems Engineer Magnavox Electronic Systems Company (Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From popserver Thu Feb 15 18:14:28 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4486" "Thu" "15" "February" "1996" "08:32:00" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "124" "Re: Mag brake" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Received: from most.fw.hac.com (gw1.magec.com [151.168.2.3]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id FAA28578 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 05:35:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by most.fw.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17015; Thu, 15 Feb 96 08:34:29 EST Received: from unknown(151.168.254.82) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI016958; Thu Feb 15 08:33:04 1996 Received: by most (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02762; Thu, 15 Feb 96 08:33:02 EST Received: from ss4.fw.hac.com(151.168.145.199) by most via smap (V1.5khhunt) id sma002739; Thu Feb 15 08:32:02 1996 Received: from [151.168.146.187] (kgstar) by ss4.uiv (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA28259; Thu, 15 Feb 96 08:31:59 EST X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Re: Mag brake Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 08:32:00 -0500 I appended my web pages mass in space calculations on the end in case your interested. Oh, the plasma is probably swirling around with the rest of the galaxy in a slightly different orbit that us and the other local stars. Kelly At 10:55 PM 2/14/96, KellySt@aol.com wrote: >-------------------- >Forwarded message: >From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) >To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, >zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, >David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu >Date: 96-02-12 12:54:50 EST > >>Are their any numbers on how much power per thrust the magnetic break would >>take? > >I'm not certain if you understood the mechanism. It seems that I didn't >either: > >!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >! > >Now looking at the formulas again, I notice that the plasma needs to move >traverse to the flightpath and my assumption of towing the wires behind the >ship is probably not right either. They need to be in a network in front of >the ship (the plane of the net is perpendicular to the direction of >movement.) > >!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >! > >The interstallar plasma is moving, don't ask me why or whereto but the book >says it does. What we do is use the magnetic field component that is >traverse to the velocity of the ship. > > /\ > || >---------------- moving conducting wire > >X O X O X O X O magnetic field lines going up or down or aside > >If the field lines are perpendicular to the direction the wires are moving, >then an electric current will start to flow in these wires. The electric >resistance turns this current into heat and radiates it away in all >directions. All that heat comes from the kinetic energy of the starship and >thus the ship slows down. > > >They use the following formula: > >Drag force= rho V Va A > >rho=mass density of the plasma >V=ships velocity >Va="Alfven" velocity=Sqrt[B^2/(4 Pi rho)]=10 km/sec >B=traverse magnetic field >A=frontal area of the net > >They use also another way of writing: > >Drag force = Sqrt(Dh Dm) > >Dh=hydronamic drag= rho V^2 A (Dh=normal drag due to mass-collisions) >Dm=magnetic drag = A B^2/(4 Pi) > > >This system looks a lot like the solid plate in front of the ship catching >the ISM to decelerate. The book tries to explain that this magnetic sister >may be more usefull due to the size:mass ratio. While one can use thin wires >to make use of the magnetic field, one needs a rather thick plane to stop >fast moving particles. > >By the way, Steve, would it be possible for you to explain how a normal >magnetic scoop could be constructed. > >Timothy Ram Scoop collector 1000 km diameter scoop 200 tons. The speed of light is 300,000 kilometers per second Assuming your moving at 1/3rd the speed of light (100,000 kilometer per second, or 1E10 cm/sec) with a scoop area of 1000 km (pi*R^2=pi(50,000,000cm)^2 = 7.854E15 cm^2). You'd be scooping up the mass in 7.854 E25 cubic centimeters of space. A big question is the composition of interstellar space. A classic assumption is that there is nothing but about 1 atom of hydrogen in a cubic centimeter of space. More recently, people guess it might be less than .054 atoms per cubic centimeter or as many as 10. Even more recently than that (say the last few months) it has been proposed that there may be a lot of long-chain carbon molecules in space. Perhaps 60-200 atoms / molecules. These small, dark, heavy molecules might be the missing 90-99% of the mass of the galaxy (euphemistically called "dark matter"). So far, no one really knows. This is unfortunate, because the composition of the interstellar medium makes a hell of a difference in the design of a RAIR-based starship. Since we don't know one way or the other, let's assume one atom per cubic centimeter at a proton mass of 1.673 E-27 Kg. At 0.333c, using the above design figures, our 1000 km in diameter scoop, scoops up a ram flow of 131.4 grams per second. Note that this number might be off by a factor of 10 or even 100! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Sr. Systems Engineer Magnavox Electronic Systems Company (Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From popserver Fri Feb 16 04:51:33 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5742" "Thu" "15" "February" "1996" "23:45:07" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "158" "Re: Re: Summary" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com (emout10.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.25]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id UAA12070 for ; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 20:48:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA02108; Thu, 15 Feb 1996 23:45:07 -0500 Message-ID: <960215234506_223455846@emout10.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu Subject: Re: Re: Summary Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 23:45:07 -0500 On Wed, 14 Feb 1996 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > Tim wrote: > > > > > >> Could we really trust such a big machinery to keep on working for > > >> several months (if not a year)? > > > > > >Sure, we have a lot of big mechanical systems experience and the launcher > is > > >very simple and has very few moving parts. The complex part would be the > > >minning and construction parts, and the crews will be around to supervise > > >that. > > > > It may have few moving parts, but so does a rocket engine. How many rocket > > engines will be able to work continously for half a year? > > Rockets have to be light and high powered. For this system the pumps would > be closer to city water pumps than rocket turbo pumps. The accelerator would > provide the high speed boost, but none of it would move. so one of the questions we have to answer, is whether we should leave the launcher in the target system, or take it with us and add the complexity of an maser array. if we take it with us, we can keep it maintained, if we leave it behind, we might save some energy. > > I imagine such a launcher as an electromagnetic pipeline say 100 km in > > length and 10 cm in diameter. This is about 10 times as long as the > > accelerator at CERN. It's diameter is probably many times more. I think we > > won't reach much more than .5c because at CERN it takes several 1000 turns > > to get the particles to move that fast. I'm not sure if we need a vacuum > > assuming we use something like our moon to build the launcher on. But if we > > do, it means a lot of moving objects (I'm not sure though how high-vacuum > > pumps do work). > > On the other hand there is a lot of electronics involved to control al the > > machinery. Can we be sure that there won't be a fuse that burns through? (I > > assume there won't be any fuses, since they aren't allowed to burn through > > anyway) > > I'm not clear on the requirment for the launcher. Hopefully it won't need to > be that long. I don't think we'ld need speed that high because then the ship > would get to far away from the launcher before it got that fast. I think > beam presision is the main limitation, but I haven't work on it. ] Tim, why not have a torroidal accelerator with a straight aiming track? ] The particles could go around the track many times before ] being thrown out into space. That would make it a smaller device > > Do you have a better idea, that I don't know of... :) > > Unles we come up with matter conversion or warp drives, I think thats about > it. ] Okay, So i see three semi-respectable drive systems. ] each of which needs some more work to be productive, ] each of which requires some technology that we don't ] have yet, or we can't agree when we might have. 1) The fusion RAIR: Pros: we are closer to fusion than to the next two ideas. Fairly low energy. would have military applications (i.e. the government would fund it) moderate heat load/low rad loaad depending on fuel cycle Cons (basic to the design, for which no reasonable tech solution exits) Slower. even if it gets up to .75 C, will add many years to a flight. and the design only calls for .5 C. requires many hundred tons of relatively rare atoms ( i.e. Li, He, Be,) Or a better Fusion pathway that uses Hydrogen. Tech Limitations: a "Fuel Launcher" (whatever that is) capable of keeping a tight beam of fusion fuel pellets (or gas) on course for .5 to 1 Light-years. Must be re-built in target sytem. Must be automated. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Good summary, but what do you mean Military applications? What the hell would the military do with big fixed Electromagnetic cannon? Its just a scaled up version of what they are building now! ] 2) the MARS: (SOL > {maser sail} > mid-way point > {Lineac drive} > TC) ] maser sail needed for return is easier to repair than fuel ] launcher. But is the maser array easier to repair then a fuel launcher? ] 3) Anti-matter. ] Okay, did I miss anything? ] Here's my suggestion: since each design has some technical ] limitation on it, let's assume we can solve that problem. ] Kelly gets a fuel launcher, he only has to tell us how ] far/fast/much it needs to shoot in order to provide the ] thrust to his rocket. he does not need to prove it works, ] or justify it's abilities as reasonable. provided the ] energy costs etc are accounted for. ] Kelly also gets to use the fusion cycle and reactor of ] his choice Ooo, new toys! ;) ] Kevin gets a maser array capable of aiming +/- 1000 Km / 12 L.Y. ] (really, could be anything, but I think this is reasonable) ] Kevin also gets self-reproducing robots until he can ] figure out how to do without them. Reproduction ] rate/intelligence level will be discussed later. ] Tim gets the ability to manufacture and store whatever ] amount of anti-matter is required. If anti-matter is ] manufactured in target system, 50% effeiciency is ] assumed (make 1 Kg matter for every Kg Antimatter) ] E=mC^2. ] These items then become the minimum tech basis for ] our designs. They cannot be built until these problems ] are solved. Since we cannot possibly solve these ] particular problems here in this forum, let's just ] assume them for now, and see where this takes us. ] I will start working on a MARS addition to my home ] page. Let's try to refine the design of each of these ] propulsion systems. ] Kevin Houston Good idea, these do seem to be the only ideas we're talking about anymore, so we might as well write them up. I'm working up a summary list of the drive system ideas, so as more stuff gets filled in we can update it into the summary on LIT. listing the risks assumptions and all that. Kelly From popserver Sat Feb 17 01:43:45 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1894" "Fri" "16" "February" "1996" "10:38:54" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "50" "Re: Re: Summary" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from mhub1.tc.umn.edu (mhub1.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.51]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id IAA16341 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 08:40:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by mhub1.tc.umn.edu; Fri, 16 Feb 96 10:38:55 -0600 Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Fri, 16 Feb 96 10:38:54 -0600 In-Reply-To: <960215234506_223455846@emout10.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: KellySt@aol.com cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, Lee Parker Subject: Re: Re: Summary Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 10:38:54 -0600 (CST) On Thu, 15 Feb 1996 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > > On Wed, 14 Feb 1996 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > > ] Kevin Houston Wrote: > > ] Okay, So i see three semi-respectable drive systems. > ] each of which needs some more work to be productive, > ] each of which requires some technology that we don't > ] have yet, or we can't agree when we might have. > > 1) The fusion RAIR: > > Pros: we are closer to fusion than to the next two ideas. Fairly low energy. > would have military applications (i.e. the government would fund it) > moderate heat load/low rad loaad depending on fuel cycle > > Cons (basic to the design, for which no reasonable tech solution exits) > Slower. even if it gets up to .75 C, will add many years to a flight. > and the design only calls for .5 C. requires many hundred tons of > relatively rare atoms ( i.e. Li, He, Be,) Or a better Fusion pathway that > uses Hydrogen. > > Tech Limitations: a "Fuel Launcher" (whatever that is) capable of > keeping a tight beam of fusion fuel pellets (or gas) on course for .5 to > 1 Light-years. Must be re-built in target sytem. Must be automated. > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Good summary, but what do you mean Military applications? What the hell > would the military do with big fixed Electromagnetic cannon? Its just a > scaled up version of what they are building now! > No, you mis-understood, I meant that the military would like to have fusion technology to power subs and space-vessels. The fuel launcher is capable of being built with today's tech. > ] 2) the MARS: (SOL > {maser sail} > mid-way point > {Lineac drive} > TC) > > ] maser sail needed for return is easier to repair than fuel > ] launcher. > > But is the maser array easier to repair then a fuel launcher? No, and I said as much in my message. I think a fuel launcher would be easier to build than a solar array/maser array From popserver Sat Feb 17 01:44:58 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2584" "Fri" "16" "February" "1996" "13:03:00" "PST" "Brian Mansur" "bmansur@oc.edu" nil "65" "Ionizing Interstellar gases" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: bmansur@oc.edu Received: from einstein.oc.edu (DNS2.OC.EDU [205.143.216.15]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id LAA00520 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 11:09:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mainpobox.oc.edu by einstein.oc.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/16Oct95-0320PM) id AA12421; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 13:03:05 -0600 Received: by mainpobox.oc.edu with Microsoft Mail id <3124F106@mainpobox.oc.edu>; Fri, 16 Feb 96 13:03:02 PST Message-Id: <3124F106@mainpobox.oc.edu> Encoding: 65 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 From: Brian Mansur To: hous0042 , jim , KellySt , rddesign , stevev , "T.L.G.vanderLinden" , zkulpa Subject: Ionizing Interstellar gases Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 13:03:00 PST Here we go again (sound of two my bits clinking on the table) I was up late a few nights ago, pondering as I sometimes do, just how in the world we are going to get a ram scoop/brake/mag-sail to work without spending unbelievable amounts of energy (which is another problem I was thinking about but don't have time to elaborate much on before I need to go to class. I mentioned before how I read about in 29a the following Begin Excerpt ************************************************** Design Project Newsletter - Week 29a ************************************************** From: segerge@msrc.wpafb.af.mil (GAYLORD E. SEGER) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 08:35:56 +0500 From: "jim" >Jason Cooper writes: > >>Every time I hear of the ramscoop, people keep referring to the scoop as >>a physical thing. How much consideration has been given here to an >>electromagnetic scoop, and a simple ionizing laser to take care of the >>incoming hydrogen? > >Your operative word is "simple." Such a laser would need to have a beam >divergance of nearly one radian in order to ionize even some of the incoming >dust and gas. With some form of magnetic scoop out front of the physical intake, a smaller beam divergence will be neccessary to avoid damaging the scoop. You want ionization to take place in advance of the magnetic scoop, anyway, so there's another reason for a tighter beam. > As the beam diameter reaches that of the intake scoop, the >energy densities would need to be on the order of 10^4 joules per square >centimeter. Assuming an intake scoop diameter of a conservative 100 meters, >the laser would need to be able to output power on the order of 1 terawatt >(10^12) watts. Also bear in mind that most laser processes are only about 10 >percene efficient. This would require that the laser consume 10 terawatts of >electrical power to produce its one terawatt of optical power. Though the >numbers are quick and dirty, they ought be good to an order of magnitude. End Excerpt Ten Terrawatts is way too much power for such a small effect. So I figured, why not fire the beams perpendicular to the direction of the ship? This would act like a laser shield that the particles hit and are ionized by. It saves a lot of power that would otherwise be wasted hitting only 1 atom per cubic centimeter. Of course, I don't know how powerful the beam needs to be to be effective to a distance of 1000 km in any direction. Some know some numbers. If they are too big, we may just have to go without a magnetic scoop/sail. From popserver Sat Feb 17 01:48:00 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1240" "Sat" "17" "February" "1996" "01:24:16" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "37" "Re: A new way of DEcelerating" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id QAA26545 for ; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 16:25:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA15436 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 17 Feb 1996 01:24:10 +0100 Message-Id: <199602170024.AA15436@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Re: A new way of DEcelerating Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 01:24:16 +0100 >??? > >Maybe I'm tired, but I still don't understand how this thing works. Sounds >like if you can keep dumping the excess heart generated (and keep the thing >from folding up) it should be a nice mag brake. --- I think? I think that you do understand, but to be sure I will explain it in 3 sentences: The ionize plasma creates magnetic fields that create in their turn an electric current in the array. The electrical resistance in the array then dissipates energy in the form of heat. This method needs a large net: ----------- | | | | | | +-+-+-+-+-+ | | | | | | +-+-+-+-+-+ all lines are several metres apart. | | | | | | ----------- in front or at the back! of the ship. At the back would probably be easier, since it would be a kind of parachute. As said before this method is a cheap way of decelerating, but the ISP (Inter Stellar Plasma) is probably too few and too slow. One could compare it with catching ISmatter, but magnetic coupling is easier than catching matter at high speed. I hope it's clear, if not you can ask me again, but the method won't improve :( Timothy (Answers to the other letters will follow over say 14 hours, at least if my dailback-connection works as it should for a change) From popserver Sat Feb 17 23:17:17 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1143" "Sat" "17" "February" "1996" "15:43:35" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "27" "Re: Re: Summary B" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id IAA07697 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 08:22:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA08564 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Sat, 17 Feb 1996 15:43:29 +0100 Message-Id: <199602171443.AA08564@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 824581993.055 Status: U From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Re: Re: Summary B Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 15:43:35 +0100 To Kevin, >Tim, why not have a torroidal accelerator with a straight aiming track? >The particles could go around the track many times before being thrown >out into space. That would make it a smaller device I assumed that this would increase complexity, since more magnets are needed since the particles want to move in a straight line instead of as circle. Besides this minor problem, I don't think that a torroidal accelerator could accelerate particles continuously but only in small shots. This is because it only can accelerate a localize group of particle moving at one speed. Thus a whole bunch of particle moving at speeds ranging from 1/1000 c to 1/10 c would be a major problem, because they all would move along each other (or worse collide inside the torroid). >Tim gets the ability to manufacture and store whatever amount of >anti-matter is required. If anti-matter is manufactured in target >system, 50% effeiciency is assumed (make 1 Kg matter for every Kg >Antimatter) E=mC^2. I was already looking around for more info about anti-matter. >Fuck the CDA I think that is not allowed to be written... Timothy From popserver Sat Feb 17 23:17:19 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4479" "Sat" "17" "February" "1996" "15:43:18" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "97" "Re: Hands and brains." "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id IAA07733 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 08:23:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA08554 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Sat, 17 Feb 1996 15:43:11 +0100 Message-Id: <199602171443.AA08554@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 824581993.056 Status: U From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Re: Hands and brains. Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 15:43:18 +0100 To Kelly, >> >>So than the final question is what determines the complexity of the >> >>connections? >> > >> >Yes and why it develops. >> >>I think the latter is clear, being able to use your braincells more >>efficient is a clear evolutional advantage. Or did you mean something >>different? > >Clear advantage for what. I.E. what pushed us to do that much evolving into >our brains and tool making. Then we mean the same, only express it different... >> I think that experiments have been done many years ago. I've read in >several >> books what I wrote before: Greenhouse gasses are more opaque planetary >> radiation than for solar radiation. >> This implies that the volume in which the greenhouse gas is present becomes >> warmer than if it was a normal gas. > >Implies, not proves. Atmosphers have many complex interactions, few of which >are well understood. So even if the green gases did block radiation from >escaping and kept in heat. Would that cause the system to heat or cool? > Would it keep the heat in at night but keep it out durring the day? Would >this change cause more cloude cover which would effect the balence (it isn't >known if clouds heat or cool). How would global wind patterns change? I don't understand why you think it keeps the heat out during daylight? As far as I know, it keeps the heat in day AND night. >All this stuff interacts, and no one knows how. So even if they knew what >the green gases did, they still couldn't tell what the total effect on the >system would be. Best you could do is check records for long term trends over >the last 200 year (i.e. industrial revolution time.), but that shows no clear >pattern, and the data has more holes than solids. In this whole discussion I was talking ONLY about the effect of green house gasses. The word cloud never appeared in my writing, indeed it is not known yet what clouds do exactly, but that wasn't what I was discussing. There are probably many effects that compensate for the increased density of greenhouse gasses, but it can be assumed that if the density of the greenhouse gasses gets to big, like on Venus, other effects cannot compensate enough. So we can conclude one thing: the global temperature stays the same, but since greenhouse gasses ALWAYS cause an increase of the temperature there MUST be other effects that work against it. The speculation is that the greenhouse effect can increase to a much higher limit than the counter-effects can. When that happens one talks about a run-away greenhouse effect. >> But why isn't that true then? Or is it because the heat can radiate out but >> only not as fast? > >The solar energy doesn't change in bulk to heat. The glass blocks solar >heat as well as soil heat. Above all the heat radiation rates were not the >dominent effect in the system. Hmm, I don't see what is new. The amounts of reflection don't matter only the reflection DIFFERENCES for solar and soil radiation do matter. I notice that you are talking about solar heat and soil heat, I think that is not correct, you should use solar radiation and soil radiation since both have a very different distribution of the wavelengths (soil has more infrared while the Sun has more ultra violet). >> It may well be that my numbers are wrong and should indeed be more like 4 >> degrees per century but anyhow, they are an increase. And I heard several >> times that the global temperature was increasing (although not necessary >> caused by the greenhouse effect). Now I only wonder why NASA's measurement >> shows something different than other measurements of which I don't recall >> the source. > >The press and ecogroups often report the temperature increase. Science and >climatology reports usualy report inconclusive results. But the press and >advocacy groups hate that, so they skip over it. Ah I see, the well know "media effect". :) >> I meant that higher organisms could not evolutionize in small areas because >> there would be not enough food for a population large enough to overcome >> inbreading. > >I was assuming the environments were large scale, even global. Oh, I thought you were talking about isolated pools, or are these "isolated" pools close enough to "jump" from one to the other. Assuming the geo-recycling of chemicals is global, the creatures using these chemicals would have only relative short period to evolve, since large scale geo-recycling(=vulcans) will exist for a not to long period. Timothy From popserver Sat Feb 17 23:17:22 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6906" "Sat" "17" "February" "1996" "15:43:26" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "152" "Re: Re: Summary A" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id IAA07754 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 1996 08:24:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA08559 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Sat, 17 Feb 1996 15:43:21 +0100 Message-Id: <199602171443.AA08559@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-UIDL: 824581993.057 Status: U From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Re: Re: Summary A Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 15:43:26 +0100 Kelly, >> OK, could a satellite in a far orbit around TC be a possibility to overcome >> the interferring radiation of TC? If we can distinguish big planets from >> their Sun many lightyears away, I think we can also distinguish some >signals >> of a strong satellite in an orbit beyond the TC-analog of Pluto. > >Possibly, but if we have a hard time even seeing a planet, what luck will we >have trying to see and decript a signal? To see a planet we need spatial RESOLUTION. To receive a signal we don't need an exact position. Although you probably can't see the radio transmitter of your favourite station, you can receive the signal with a simple omni-directional antenna. Your arguement is: TC creates to much radiation along the whole spectrum of wavelength, so that we cannot out-shout it enough to create a signal that makes sence to people in another starsystem. I am not sure if there are no bands that we can use. I think we can find a way around it so that we don't need to shout. This could be done by one or more relay stations. I do agree however, that there may be a problem, but also that we do not know the exact size of it. ============================================================================== >>>Sure, we have a lot of big mechanical systems experience and the launcher is >> >very simple and has very few moving parts. The complex part would be the >> >minning and construction parts, and the crews will be around to supervise >> >that. >> >> It may have few moving parts, but so does a rocket engine. How many rocket >> engines will be able to work continously for half a year? > >Rockets have to be light and high powered. For this system the pumps would >be closer to city water pumps than rocket turbo pumps. The accelerator would >provide the high speed boost, but none of it would move. What I didn't think of the last time, is that it should have to aim. For that it needs some kind of movement. That makes me wonder, how are we going to move such a big launcher. I'm still not sure if you want to place it in space or on some massive rock (planet, asteroid?). >I'm not clear on the requirment for the launcher. Hopefully it won't need to >be that long. I don't think we'ld need speed that high because then the ship >would get to far away from the launcher before it got that fast. I think >beam presision is the main limitation, but I haven't work on it. This length is not only needed to accelerate but also to aim accurately. >> To make an anology, could a nuclear reactor work without anyone present, >> for half a year? (Limited remote control could be allowed) > >Some reators do run for years without direct control. (Some like three mile >Island ran much better that way ;) ) The big commercial plants need >operating, but thats mainly to adjust for power loads. Soviet subs are >fairly automated as I remember. And of course the computer power avalible >will be a lot more. > >Of course if they can't be automated, the ship can't go. I'm still having doubts, and I am a little amazed that you have so much convidence in it, since you are finding it so logical that things break down in a rate too fast to repair by a small community. >> Besides all this, building such an accelerator is pretty high tech. And you >> are constantly saying that that isn't possible. > >Accelerators arn't that high tech. At least not if you arn't interested in >super high speeds and partical level interactions. Its basically an >electromagnetic cannon. Yes, but the size of it is much bigger (1E18 times?) than needed for a few billion atoms per second. It's not the same as adding simple cannons together, since the particles will start to interact and desturb the same fields that accelerate them. ============================================================================== >> What I've seen from these simulations, is that they can be quite realistic. >> g-forces, ever more perfect visual environments. A few weaks ago I saw that >> there where special simulations for landings on a flightdeck (talk about >> difficult landings). Maybe the simulations aren't 100% real but I think >> that 90% is close enough. > >The pilots disagree. They can't simulate G fources well at all, and can >sometimes give pilots the wrong reflexes in G manuvers. They are excelent >for exersizing a pilot in certain things. Bad in others. I don't know why I came with this before: They would probably have some small space cruisers that would be the space equivalent of todays jet-fighters. In these cruisers they could just blank the window (if it has one) and fly in a simulated landscape. So they would have experience in real space and simulated planet flight (and both having real acceleration). I read that NASA is doing test-flights with pilots landing and flying in a plane with no windows, only a computer generated image of the needed information (IR, radar, visual combined). >> >> space colony. And why should a space colony be so significantly more >> >> dangerous than a 5 year flight in space? >> > >> >Because a space colony is a 50-100 year flight through space. Same life >> >support needs and risks, just for 10-20 times longer, and with and >> >increasingly old and wornout crew and ship. >> >> Yes, but you would be able to repair or rebuild things. > >Same in the ship. No, the ship would have much less resources (ores and machinery). >Besides, how do you repair the crew when they wear out? Yes, I know, that is the weakest point of the whole "colony"-idea. >> Media also like to tackle plans that seem to look OK. Besides why wouldn't >> they like the idea to build a colony there. > >A colony with no purpose and tremendous expence? Which locks us into >frequent perminent suply runs? Which condems its occupants to dramatically >shortend lives of hardship? I think they might find more than a few reasons >if they want to. I think that for any flight in the next century there will be lots of reasons not to go. >>Almost (or completely) freezing >> people to revive them gives a nasty taste to many people. All this assumes >> that one can hibernate which seems to me just as possible as >> anti-matter-engines to you. > >Hibernation seems to get talked about with harly a wisper of concern in a lot >of groups. Frankly I can't understand why. I don't understand what you mean: Do you see any public problems with hibernation itself or not? ============================================================================= >> Yes, but aren't these high-tech parts? Does an airplane have any low-tech >> parts (except the chairs)? All these parts have high specifications, also >> the construction needs to be perfect. > >Not really, they are just big structural elements. That should be pretty >easy to build from local supplies. Is that true? I always thought that it needed special bolts an nuts etc. Timothy From popserver Sun Feb 18 21:58:28 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["856" "Sun" "18" "February" "1996" "16:06:27" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "28" "Re: Re: Summary" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com (emout07.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.22]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id NAA17478 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 13:10:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA14532; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 16:06:27 -0500 Message-ID: <960218160627_225209980@emout07.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Subject: Re: Re: Summary Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 16:06:27 -0500 >> Good summary, but what do you mean Military applications? What the hell >> would the military do with big fixed Electromagnetic cannon? Its just a >> scaled up version of what they are building now! > >No, you mis-understood, I meant that the military would >like to have fusion technology to power subs and > space-vessels. The fuel launcher is capable of being > built with today's tech. Oh, your right I didn't understand. >> ] 2) the MARS: (SOL > {maser sail} > mid-way point > {Lineac drive} > TC) >> >> ] maser sail needed for return is easier to repair than fuel >> ] launcher. >> >> But is the maser array easier to repair then a fuel launcher? > No, and I said as much in my message. I think a fuel > launcher would be easier to build than a solar array/maser > array Missed that too. Opps. Ok, no disagreements then. Kelly From popserver Sun Feb 18 21:58:36 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4538" "Sun" "18" "February" "1996" "16:07:35" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "122" "Re: Re: Summary A" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com (emout09.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.24]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id NAA17597 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 13:12:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA24586; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 16:07:35 -0500 Message-ID: <960218160733_225210363@emout09.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Re: Re: Summary A Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 16:07:35 -0500 To Timothy van der Linden (I trimed things a bit.) ============================================================================== > What I didn't think of the last time, is that it [fuel launcher] should > have to aim. For that it needs some kind of movement. > That makes me wonder, how are we going to move such > a big launcher. I'm still not sure if you want to place > it in space or on some massive rock (planet, asteroid?). Fourtunately it would have a fixed aim toward Sol. Unfortunately everything in the solar system tumbles. So I expect we'll have to move a big mas to a usable orbut and then stablize it (and possibly gyro stablize part of it). The launchers could be mounted on that and the fuel processors and storage reserved set up on it. (You prep the fuel before you leave, and leave enough extra for the next ship in.) > >I'm not clear on the requirment for the launcher. Hopefully it won't need to > >be that long. I don't think we'ld need speed that high because then the ship > >would get to far away from the launcher before it got that fast. I think > >beam presision is the main limitation, but I haven't work on it. > This length is not only needed to accelerate but also to > aim accurately. You need a 100 km coil to aim 1/4 light year or less? > I'm still having doubts, and I am a little amazed that > you have so much convidence in it [electro-mag fuel launchers], since you are finding > it so logical that things break down in a rate too fast to > repair by a small community. I consider the community will have more complex and less relyable stuff to repair. Electromagnetic launchers are about as simple as we'll get. > >> Besides all this, building such an accelerator is pretty high tech. And you > >> are constantly saying that that isn't possible. > > >Accelerators arn't that high tech. At least not if you arn't interested in > >super high speeds and partical level interactions. Its basically an > >electromagnetic cannon. > Yes, but the size of it is much bigger (1E18 times?) > than needed for a few billion atoms per second. > It's not the same as adding simple cannons together, > since the particles will start to interact and desturb > the same fields that accelerate them. Then package every E18th set of particals into a fuel packet canister. ============================================================================== > I don't know why I came with this before: They would probably have some > small space cruisers that would be the space equivalent of todays > jet-fighters. In these cruisers they could just blank the window (if it has > one) and fly in a simulated landscape.---- Thats a little involved. I'm not sure if it would work. Certainly ground ops training is out, but that might get you trained enough to operate the flyiers. > >> >> space colony. And why should a space colony be so significantly more > >> >> dangerous than a 5 year flight in space? > >> > > >> >Because a space colony is a 50-100 year flight through space. Same life > >> >support needs and risks, just for 10-20 times longer, and with and > >> >increasingly old and wornout crew and ship. > >> > >> Yes, but you would be able to repair or rebuild things. > > > >Same in the ship. > No, the ship would have much less resources (ores and > machinery). The ship would have identical machinery (it would have to carry it eiather way), I'm not really sure of the extra ore would make a big difference. > >>Almost (or completely) freezing > >> people to revive them gives a nasty taste to many people. All this assumes > >> that one can hibernate which seems to me just as possible as > >> anti-matter-engines to you. > > > >Hibernation seems to get talked about with harly a wisper of concern in a lot > >of groups. Frankly I can't understand why. > I don't understand what you mean: Do you see any > public problems with hibernation itself or not? Starngly I've never heard much public upset at the idea. ============================================================================= > >> Yes, but aren't these high-tech parts? Does an airplane have any low-tech > >> parts (except the chairs)? All these parts have high specifications, also > >> the construction needs to be perfect. > > >Not really, they are just big structural elements. That should be pretty > >easy to build from local supplies. > Is that true? I always thought that it needed special bolts an > nuts etc. There are not that hard to build compared to the high tech parts. From popserver Sun Feb 18 21:58:39 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["6050" "Sun" "18" "February" "1996" "16:07:05" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "154" "Re: Hands and brains." "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id NAA17634 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 13:14:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA06786; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 16:07:05 -0500 Message-ID: <960218160704_225210245@emout08.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Re: Hands and brains. Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 16:07:05 -0500 > To Kelly, > >> >>So than the final question is what determines the complexity of the > >> >>connections? > >> > > >> >Yes and why it develops. > >> > >>I think the latter is clear, being able to use your braincells more > >>efficient is a clear evolutional advantage. Or did you mean something > >>different? > > > >Clear advantage for what. I.E. what pushed us to do that much evolving into > >our brains and tool making. > Then we mean the same, only express it different... Pretty much. > >> I think that experiments have been done many years ago. I've read in > >several > >> books what I wrote before: Greenhouse gasses are more opaque planetary > >> radiation than for solar radiation. > >> This implies that the volume in which the greenhouse gas is present becomes > >> warmer than if it was a normal gas. > > > >Implies, not proves. Atmosphers have many complex interactions, few of which > >are well understood. So even if the green gases did block radiation from > >escaping and kept in heat. Would that cause the system to heat or cool? > > Would it keep the heat in at night but keep it out durring the day? Would > >this change cause more cloude cover which would effect the balence (it isn't > >known if clouds heat or cool). How would global wind patterns change? > I don't understand why you think it keeps the heat out > during daylight? > As far as I know, it keeps the heat in day AND night. Climatologists don't agree on that. Sun light has a large component in the IR bands. > >All this stuff interacts, and no one knows how. So even if they knew what > >the green gases did, they still couldn't tell what the total effect on the > >system would be. Best you could do is check records for long term trends over > >the last 200 year (i.e. industrial revolution time.), but that shows no clear > >pattern, and the data has more holes than solids. > In this whole discussion I was talking ONLY about the > effect of green house gasses. The word cloud never > appeared in my writing, indeed it is not known > yet what clouds do exactly, but that wasn't what I was > discussing. > There are probably many effects that compensate for > the increased density of greenhouse gasses, but it can > be assumed that if the density of the greenhouse gasses > gets to big, like on Venus, other effects cannot > compensate enough. You keep assuming greenhouse gasses cause global warming. That is an unproven theory. > So we can conclude one thing: the global temperature > stays the same, but since greenhouse gasses ALWAYS > cause an increase of the temperature there MUST be > other effects that work against it. Or we can, we equal validity given the data, assume that 'greenhouse gases' don't cause a temperature rise, since no rise has occured after largescale introduction of those gases to the atmosphere. We don't know! Not knowing makes bad press, but its honest science. > The speculation is that the greenhouse effect can > increase to a much higher limit than the counter-effects > can. When that happens one talks about a run-away > greenhouse effect. A speculation that was thought up after it was agreed that the globe isn't warming. Greenhouse advocates, who previously all agreed that data would show it was warming, then thought up a new theory to explain why they were right, but were early. Again, no data exists to prove their theory. > >> But why isn't that true then? Or is it because the heat > >> can radiate out but only not as fast? > > > > The solar energy doesn't change in bulk to heat. The > > glass blocks solar heat as well as soil heat. Above > > all the heat radiation rates were not the > > dominent effect in the system. > Hmm, I don't see what is new. The amounts of reflection > don't matter only the reflection DIFFERENCES for solar > and soil radiation do matter. And I said the differnces didn't cause the so called 'greenhouse effect'. I.E. the reflection of heat (from solar heated soil) back into the green house, seemed to be matched by the amount of solarheat reflected away from the green house. > I notice that you are talking about solar heat and soil > heat, I think that is not correct, you should use solar > radiation and soil radiation since both have a very > different distribution of the wavelengths (soil has > more infrared while the Sun has more ultra violet). Solar heat would by definition be the IR band of sunlight. your nit picking. > >> It may well be that my numbers are wrong and should indeed be more like 4 > >> degrees per century but anyhow, they are an increase. And I heard several > >> times that the global temperature was increasing (although not necessary > >> caused by the greenhouse effect). Now I only wonder why NASA's measurement > >> shows something different than other measurements of which I don't recall > >> the source. > > >The press and ecogroups often report the temperature increase. Science and > >climatology reports usualy report inconclusive results. But the press and > >advocacy groups hate that, so they skip over it. > Ah I see, the well know "media effect". :) Like they say, 'Good news, isn't news.' > >> I meant that higher organisms could not evolutionize in small areas because > >> there would be not enough food for a population large enough to overcome > >> inbreading. > > >I was assuming the environments were large scale, even global. > Oh, I thought you were talking about isolated pools, or > are these "isolated" pools close enough to "jump" from > one to the other. I was talking about non isolated pools, or global ecosheres. > Assuming the geo-recycling of chemicals is global, > the creatures using these chemicals would have only > relative short period to evolve, since large scale > geo-recycling(=vulcans) will exist for a not to long period. Why do you asume that? Vulcanism on Earth is a localized and infrequent phenominon, but other bodies in this solar system (like Venus or one of the jovian moons) it seems almost constant. From popserver Sun Feb 18 21:58:48 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1629" "Sun" "18" "February" "1996" "13:41:49" "-0800" "Ric Rddesign Denisse Hedman" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" nil "48" "Re: Re: Summary" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: rddesign@wolfenet.com Received: from wolfe.net (mail1.wolfe.net [204.157.98.11]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id NAA19290 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 13:42:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from rddesign.wolfenet.com (sea-ts4-p42.wolfenet.com [204.157.100.96]) by wolfe.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id NAA28437; Sun, 18 Feb 1996 13:41:49 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199602182141.NAA28437@wolfe.net> X-Sender: rddesign@wolfenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric & Denisse Hedman) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Re: Re: Summary Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 13:41:49 -0800 (PST) As you all know I haven't put more than two cents worth into this discussion, mainly because most of it is far above my head. But.... What have we found out about our different propulsion systems? ( I think we have found out we don't really have one) How are we going to stop this bugger? (Short of carrying all our reaction mass/fuel, we probably can't) Can we build any of these systems? ( Probably a few but not to reach the speeds we want) I think you all are really trying very hard to come up with a means to move and stop this thing. I hope all of you can show me, (in laymans trems) that I am wrong on all these points. Next>>>> Once we come up with something we can all agree on.... then what??? Where do we go from there?? Ric >>> Good summary, but what do you mean Military applications? What the hell >>> would the military do with big fixed Electromagnetic cannon? Its just a >>> scaled up version of what they are building now! >> > >>No, you mis-understood, I meant that the military would >>like to have fusion technology to power subs and >> space-vessels. The fuel launcher is capable of being >> built with today's tech. > >Oh, your right I didn't understand. > >>> ] 2) the MARS: (SOL > {maser sail} > mid-way point > {Lineac drive} > TC) >>> >>> ] maser sail needed for return is easier to repair than fuel >>> ] launcher. >>> >>> But is the maser array easier to repair then a fuel launcher? > >> No, and I said as much in my message. I think a fuel >> launcher would be easier to build than a solar array/maser >> array > >Missed that too. Opps. > >Ok, no disagreements then. > >Kelly > > From popserver Mon Feb 19 09:39:37 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil t nil nil nil nil] ["166" "Mon" "19" "February" "1996" "01:48:07" "-0800" "Chris Hunt" "chrish@efn.org" "<31284757.1A79@efn.org>" "7" "Re: _The Diamond Age_" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: chrish@efn.org Received: from Pchrish.efn.org (dynip12.efn.org [204.214.97.12]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id BAA24973 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 01:37:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <31284757.1A79@efn.org> Organization: Deepsky Operations X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199602190933.BAA21764@tzadkiel.efn.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Chris Hunt To: Steve VanDevender Subject: Re: _The Diamond Age_ Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 01:48:07 -0800 Steve VanDevender wrote: > > And you thought _Snow Crash_ was wild and interesting. > > I'm only half done. It feels like I've read a whole book already. Author? From popserver Mon Feb 19 21:49:31 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4181" "Mon" "19" "February" "1996" "19:23:28" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "103" "Re: Hands and brains." "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id MAA28967 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 12:41:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA19089 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Mon, 19 Feb 1996 19:23:27 +0100 Message-Id: <199602191823.AA19089@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Re: Hands and brains. Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 19:23:28 +0100 Kelly, >> I don't understand why you think it keeps the heat out >> during daylight? >> As far as I know, it keeps the heat in day AND night. > >Climatologists don't agree on that. Sun light has a large component in the >IR bands. Yes, I know, but "earth-light" is even more intense in that band. (more intense relative to the sunlight that finds it way to the soil) >> In this whole discussion I was talking ONLY about the >> effect of green house gasses. The word cloud never >> appeared in my writing, indeed it is not known >> yet what clouds do exactly, but that wasn't what I was >> discussing. >> There are probably many effects that compensate for >> the increased density of greenhouse gasses, but it can >> be assumed that if the density of the greenhouse gasses >> gets to big, like on Venus, other effects cannot >> compensate enough. > >You keep assuming greenhouse gasses cause global warming. That is an >unproven theory. No, I keep assuming that greenhouse gasses do keep the heat in and I've never heard (except from you) that it keeps the heat out or has no effect at all. >> So we can conclude one thing: the global temperature >> stays the same, but since greenhouse gasses ALWAYS >> cause an increase of the temperature there MUST be >> other effects that work against it. > >Or we can, we equal validity given the data, assume that 'greenhouse gases' >don't cause a temperature rise, since no rise has occured after largescale >introduction of those gases to the atmosphere. We don't know! Not knowing >makes bad press, but its honest science. You are saying that greenhouse gasses don't exist, or in other words there are no gasses that have a higher reflectivity for IR-light than for visible and UV-light. >> The speculation is that the greenhouse effect can >> increase to a much higher limit than the counter-effects >> can. When that happens one talks about a run-away >> greenhouse effect. > >A speculation that was thought up after it was agreed that the globe isn't >warming. Indeed, it should heat up because that was what the data collected from experiments with greenhousgasses showed. >Greenhouse advocates, who previously all agreed that data would >show it was warming, then thought up a new theory to explain why they were >right, but were early. Again, no data exists to prove their theory. Suppose you know that a mass falls, because you've done many experiments. Now you see a mass and it is not falling. How is that possible? Well there is only one solution you say, the theory and experiments must be wrong somewhere. NO, there are some simple solutions, it could be that the mass is hanging on a wire or that the mass is lying on a table. >> Hmm, I don't see what is new. The amounts of reflection >> don't matter only the reflection DIFFERENCES for solar >> and soil radiation do matter. > >And I said the differnces didn't cause the so called 'greenhouse effect'. > I.E. the reflection of heat (from solar heated soil) back into the green >house, seemed to be matched by the amount of solarheat reflected away from >the green house. I assume that do mean the absolute amount of reflected heat and not the reflection coefficient. Is it a coincidence that these absolute amounts are equal? I now don't understand anymore why does it become warm in a greenhouse? >> Ah I see, the well know "media effect". :) > >Like they say, 'Good news, isn't news.' In our family we always say, no news is good news. >> Assuming the geo-recycling of chemicals is global, >> the creatures using these chemicals would have only >> relative short period to evolve, since large scale >> geo-recycling(=vulcans) will exist for a not to long period. > >Why do you asume that? Vulcanism on Earth is a localized and infrequent >phenominon, but other bodies in this solar system (like Venus or one of the >jovian moons) it seems almost constant. I hadn't thought of Io which has vulcanism due to tidal-forces and strong magnetic fields. About Venus, I'm not completely sure but there are only few vulcanos there. So indeed, Io which I hadn't thought of, could sustain non-photosyntetic life for a long time. Timothy From popserver Mon Feb 19 21:49:34 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4762" "Mon" "19" "February" "1996" "19:23:22" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "118" "Re: Re: Summary A" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id MAA29092 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 1996 12:42:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AB19050 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Mon, 19 Feb 1996 19:22:51 +0100 Message-Id: <199602191822.AB19050@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Re: Re: Summary A Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 19:23:22 +0100 >To Timothy van der Linden > >(I trimed things a bit.) I don't mind, if I forgot something I've my older letters. ============================================================================== >Fourtunately it would have a fixed aim toward Sol. Unfortunately everything >in the solar system tumbles. So I expect we'll have to move a big mas to a >usable orbut and then stablize it (and possibly gyro stablize part of it). > The launchers could be mounted on that and the fuel processors and storage >reserved set up on it. (You prep the fuel before you leave, and leave enough >extra for the next ship in.) As said before, even if the launcher is 100 metres in length it still may be difficult. The best thing we could do is search for a big asteroid which has no own-rotation and is in a far orbit from it's sun (and thus moves not much during a few months). >> >I'm not clear on the requirment for the launcher. Hopefully it won't need >to >> >be that long. I don't think we'ld need speed that high because then the >ship >> >would get to far away from the launcher before it got that fast. I think >> >beam presision is the main limitation, but I haven't work on it. > >> This length is not only needed to accelerate but also to >> aim accurately. > >You need a 100 km coil to aim 1/4 light year or less? Lets see: d=the diametre of the accelerator tube l=length of the accelerator maximum angle of deviation: Tan(theta)=d/l maximum deviation after 1/4ly : 1/4 ly * Tan(theta) = 1/4 ly * d/l using d=0.1, l=1E5, 1 ly=9.46E15 m deviation = 0.25*9.46E15*0.01/1E5=2.4E9 m This deviation is too much, so even a longer pipe should be needed, or a smaller diametre, but the latter has a limit since it needs to exhaust a minimum amount of mass per second. Maybe I've forgotten something, but I don't see what it could be, maybe a torroidal accelerator is better after all. >> Yes, but the size of it is much bigger (1E18 times?) >> than needed for a few billion atoms per second. >> It's not the same as adding simple cannons together, >> since the particles will start to interact and desturb >> the same fields that accelerate them. > >Then package every E18th set of particals into a fuel packet canister. That's like extending a rifle to shoot an big asteroid instead of a bullet (that's only 1E10). I'm not pointing to the extra energy needed, but just to the fact that things cannot be enlarged without changing completely. ============================================================================== >> I don't know why I came with this before: They would probably have some >> small space cruisers that would be the space equivalent of todays >> jet-fighters. In these cruisers they could just blank the window (if it has >> one) and fly in a simulated landscape.---- > >Thats a little involved. I'm not sure if it would work. Certainly ground ops >training is out, but that might get you trained enough to operate the >flyiers. What do you mean by ground ops? Riding vehicles should be easier to simulate since there would be no difficult g-forces to simulate. If you mean hands on field work then indeed it may be a bit more difficult, but a single generation crew would have to become used to that too after being out for 5 to 10 years. >>>Same in the ship. >> >> No, the ship would have much less resources (ores and >> machinery). > >The ship would have identical machinery (it would have to carry it eiather >way), I'm not really sure of the extra ore would make a big difference. I was assuming they could extend=build new tools when they arrived (eg. large, low-tech equipment like steel-rollers) >> I don't understand what you mean: Do you see any >> public problems with hibernation itself or not? > >Starngly I've never heard much public upset at the idea. I think that is because so far no one has been recovered after being freezed in, most people think that it is impossible to revive a person either because of religious and/or technical reasons. Of course there may be other methods of hibernation that are less drastic, although probably all methods mean that people should be in a deep coma. I wonder if the media likes the idea of killing people just so far that they are continiously on the stairway to heaven. ============================================================================= >>>Not really, they are just big structural elements. That should be pretty >>>easy to build from local supplies. > >>Is that true? I always thought that it needed special bolts an >>nuts etc. > >There are not that hard to build compared to the high tech parts. OK, I see that. But is it that difficult to extend the equipment from making bolts with a precision of 1/1000 mm to making a micro chip? Tim From popserver Wed Feb 21 20:12:16 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1012" "Wed" "21" "February" "1996" "19:47:51" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "25" "Greenhouse effect" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl ([130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id KAA20317 for ; Wed, 21 Feb 1996 10:49:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA16801 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 21 Feb 1996 19:47:40 +0100 Message-Id: <199602211847.AA16801@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Greenhouse effect Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 19:47:51 +0100 Hello Kelly, I was looking on the web for more info about the greenhouse effect, I found the next 2 pages quite clear: Bad Greenhouse (From a meteorology professor) http://www.ems.psu.edu/~fraser/Bad/BadGreenhouse.html Greenhouse basics (From CSIRO) http://www.erin.gov.au/portfolio/esd/climate/grenbasi.html When reading them, I found that both stated that greenhouse gasses do heat the Earth. The first page also explains the difference between a glass-greenhouse and the (enhanced) greenhouse effect in the atmosphere. The author of the first page does not make clear why the greenhouse gets warmer, he only says that the prevented-convection plays the major role. But then still the heat-energy has to come from somewhere. I still assume this has to do with the glass being less reflective for solar radiation than for soil radiation (just as you wrote before) and that the amount of solar-heat reflected is slightly less than the amount of reflected soil-heat (unlike what you wrote before). Timothy From popserver Fri Feb 23 02:21:55 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["255" "Thu" "22" "February" "1996" "20:07:11" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "11" "Re: Recycling/AI and super human computers" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: David@interworld.com Received: from www.interworld.com (www.InterWorld.Com [165.254.130.4]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.4/8.7.2) with ESMTP id RAA26648 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 17:09:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from hal ([165.254.130.90]) by www.interworld.com (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 0-11464) with SMTP id AAA375; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 20:12:00 -0500 Message-ID: <312D133F.1C11@interworld.com> Organization: InterWorld, Really Cool Stuff Division X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <312D2A05@mainpobox.oc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: David@interworld.com (David Levine) To: Brian Mansur CC: hous0042 , jim , Kelly Starks , rddesign , stevev , "T.L.G.vanderLinden" , zkulpa Subject: Re: Recycling/AI and super human computers Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 20:07:11 -0500 Brian Mansur wrote: > I suggest we send this one to the Big E for immediate transmission to the > known universe. Sorry, "Big E"? BTW, you may want to use some method of separating your own material from material you are referencing in an email. David From popserver Fri Feb 23 02:22:00 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1908" "Thu" "22" "February" "1996" "19:14:00" "PST" "Brian Mansur" "bmansur@oc.edu" nil "48" "Re: Re: Summary" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: bmansur@oc.edu Received: from einstein.oc.edu (DNS2.OC.EDU [205.143.216.15]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id RAA27110 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 17:15:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mainpobox.oc.edu by einstein.oc.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/16Oct95-0320PM) id AA02934; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 19:12:38 -0600 Received: by mainpobox.oc.edu with Microsoft Mail id <312D309A@mainpobox.oc.edu>; Thu, 22 Feb 96 19:12:26 PST Message-Id: <312D309A@mainpobox.oc.edu> Encoding: 49 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 From: Brian Mansur To: bmansur , David , hous0042 , jim , KellySt , rddesign , stevev , "T.L.G.vanderLinden" , zkulpa Subject: Re: Re: Summary Date: Thu, 22 Feb 96 19:14:00 PST ---------- From: KellySt To: T.L.G.vanderLinden; stevev; jim; zkulpa; hous0042; rddesign; David; bmansur Subject: Re: Re: Summary Date: Wednesday, February 14, 1996 10:56PM > To Kelly, > > >I wasn't assuming we would be using a propulsion beam, much less build one in > >the target systems. You've pretty wel convinced me that, that isn't > >practical. > > Oh yes, it was Kevin who wants to use it. But you do use it in the next > part, or is that only for a relative short acceleration period? >Next part? I list all of them in the summary, but don't assume any of them >will be used. My designs only use fusion drives and fuel launchers. Interjecting an idea here: isn't our ion rocket basically a superpowerful ion accelerator already? If so, why don't we leave it at Tau Ceti and have it fire a relativistic particle beam at a magnetic sail attached to our ship. The way we've been talking, the ion rocket should be powerful enough to do the job. We just need to park it on a heavy but slow moving Kupier object. Earth can slow us using the same system. For some reason, I don't think its that easy ;( On the other hand, powering shouldn't be such a problem if we bring or build a maser array and let Earth beam power. ( did I just repeat something from a weeks old response to this letter?). Of course, if we can get that to happen, why not just use the maser array to directly power the accelerator as a rocket as Kevin wanted to do in the first place? On the other hand again, using this system, we don't have to worry about the engineering aspects of buiding a microwave antenna that can withstand the radiation/dust wear and tear of relativistic flight not to mention the g-force stresses. A mag-sail should be easier since it is just a bundle of superconductive wires that we could recycle and reweave into a sail. I'm going to shut up for a while now. Brian From popserver Fri Feb 23 07:06:55 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2367" "Fri" "23" "February" "1996" "00:47:55" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "62" "" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.37]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id VAA17143 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 21:50:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA18693; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 00:47:55 -0500 Message-Id: <199602230547.AAA18693@emout05.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com Apparently-To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Apparently-To: stevev@efn.org Apparently-To: jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu Apparently-To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Apparently-To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Apparently-To: rddesign@wolfenet.com Apparently-To: David@interworld.com Apparently-To: bmansur@oc.edu Apparently-To: lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 00:47:55 -0500 Linden > Kelly, > >> I don't understand why you think it keeps the heat out > >> during daylight? > >> As far as I know, it keeps the heat in day AND night. > > > >Climatologists don't agree on that. Sun light has a large component in the > >IR bands. > Yes, I know, but "earth-light" is even more intense in that > band. > (more intense relative to the sunlight that finds it way > to the soil) No sunlight is hotter in the IR band, and your not talking about the amount that gets to the ground, your talking about what hits the top of the atmosphere. IR reflective gasses would reflect that back out. Thus lowering the solar heat gain. Thus lowering the Earth surface temp during the day. > >> In this whole discussion I was talking ONLY about the > >> effect of green house gasses. The word cloud never > >> appeared in my writing, indeed it is not known > >> yet what clouds do exactly, but that wasn't what I was > >> discussing. > >> There are probably many effects that compensate for > >> the increased density of greenhouse gasses, but it can > >> be assumed that if the density of the greenhouse gasses > >> gets to big, like on Venus, other effects cannot > >> compensate enough. > > > >You keep assuming greenhouse gasses cause global warming. That is an > >unproven theory. > No, I keep assuming that greenhouse gasses do keep the > heat in and I've never heard (except from you) that it > keeps the heat out or has no effect at all. Sorry. How could it keep Earth heat in without keeping some solar heat out? > You are saying that greenhouse gasses don't exist, or in > other words there are no gasses that have a higher > reflectivity for IR-light than for visible and UV-light. No, I'm saying that introducing IR reflective gas wouldn't nessisarily heat up a planet that got most of its surface temp from outside sources. Given that a lot of IR reflective gas has been added to the atmosphere without changing the temp, and no one has a coherent explanation for how it would increase the temp, and the whole idea is vigorously debated, I'ld say it seems like a dud theory. > I now don't understand anymore why does it become warm > in a greenhouse? The glass keeps the cold wind out and is a slight insulator. It only works if its not really cold, and theirs still a lot of sunlight to warm it up in the day time. From popserver Fri Feb 23 07:06:58 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4404" "Fri" "23" "February" "1996" "00:48:07" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "113" "Re: Re: Summary A" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id VAA17190 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 21:51:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA22430; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 00:48:07 -0500 Message-ID: <960223004806_429571319@mail02.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Re: Re: Summary A Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 00:48:07 -0500 To Timothy van der Linden > >Fourtunately it would have a fixed aim toward Sol. Unfortunately everything > >in the solar system tumbles. So I expect we'll have to move a big mas to a > >usable orbut and then stablize it (and possibly gyro stablize part of it). > > The launchers could be mounted on that and the fuel processors and storage > >reserved set up on it. (You prep the fuel before you leave, and leave enough > >extra for the next ship in.) > As said before, even if the launcher is 100 metres in > length it still may be difficult. The best thing we could > do is search for a big asteroid which has no own-rotation > and is in a far orbit from it's sun (and thus moves not > much during a few months). Everything in fre space tumbles at various speeds and directions. > >You need a 100 km coil to aim 1/4 light year or less? > Lets see: > d=the diametre of the accelerator tube > l=length of the accelerator > maximum angle of deviation: Tan(theta)=d/l ----- Ah, I see your mistake. The angular deflection isn't based on the physical dimentions of the launcher, but on the accuracy and precision of the lateral correction trim thrusting, and deviation sensors. You measure the course of the accelerating packet with lasers and use lateral magnetic or electrostatic fields to adjust the direction. (Its easier if you do this after it leaves the end of the accelerator.) This way the final aim presision is not related to the size of the launcher. > >> Yes, but the size of it is much bigger (1E18 times?) > >> than needed for a few billion atoms per second. > >> It's not the same as adding simple cannons together, > >> since the particles will start to interact and desturb > >> the same fields that accelerate them. > > > >Then package every E18th set of particals into a fuel packet canister. > That's like extending a rifle to shoot an big asteroid > instead of a bullet (that's only 1E10). I'm not pointing > to the extra energy needed, but just to the fact that > things cannot be enlarged without changing completely. Tru the launcher would be more like an electromag cannon then a partical accelerator (and I really wish I had some numbers on the power a mag launcher takes) but that doesn't mean the system would scale up linearly with the size of the load. > >>>Same in the ship. > >> > >> No, the ship would have much less resources (ores and > >> machinery). > > > >The ship would have identical machinery (it would have to carry it eiather > >way), I'm not really sure of the extra ore would make a big difference. > I was assuming they could extend=build new tools when > they arrived (eg. large, low-tech equipment like > steel-rollers) I was assuming the low tech heavy stuff (like structure) would hold together longer than the lighter deatiled stuff (like IC chips and life support systems). > >> I don't understand what you mean: Do you see any > >> public problems with hibernation itself or not? > > > >Starngly I've never heard much public upset at the idea. > I think that is because so far no one has been recovered > after being freezed in, most people think that it is > impossible to revive a person either because of religious > and/or technical reasons. > Of course there may be other methods of hibernation that > are less drastic, although probably all methods mean that > people should be in a deep coma. I wonder if the media > likes the idea of killing people just so far that they > are continiously on the stairway to heaven. Oddly, I think most people assume hibernation is trivial. Lots of animals hybernate for months at a time and stop their motabalism. People have talked about puting crews in hybernation for long trips for so long that its taken for granted by people. ============================================================================= > >>>Not really, they are just big structural elements. That should be pretty > >>>easy to build from local supplies. > > > >>Is that true? I always thought that it needed special bolts an > >>nuts etc. > > > >There are not that hard to build compared to the high tech parts. > OK, I see that. But is it that difficult to extend the > equipment from making bolts with a precision of 1/1000 > mm to making a micro chip? Well there is, but more importantly you wouldn't ever make a bolt that precise for structural or heavy systems use. Kelly From popserver Fri Feb 23 07:07:02 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1012" "Fri" "23" "February" "1996" "00:48:56" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "22" "Re: Greenhouse effect" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com (emout10.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.25]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id VAA17278 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 1996 21:52:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA14494; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 00:48:56 -0500 Message-ID: <960223004855_429571563@emout10.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Re: Greenhouse effect Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 00:48:56 -0500 > The author of the first page does not make clear why > the greenhouse gets warmer, he only says that the > prevented-convection plays the major role. But > then still the heat-energy has to come from somewhere. > I still assume this has to do with the glass being less > reflective for solar radiation than for soil radiation > (just as you wrote before) and that the amount of > solar-heat reflected is slightly less than the > amount of reflected soil-heat (unlike what you wrote > before). Tim I can't beleave you're having this much trouble with this! Green houses heat up in the day when the sun pour a lot of IR on the area. Some of it heats up the inside of the greenhouse and the shelter keeps it from cooling off as fast at night. The same reason greenhouse gasses wouldn't effect daytime temps (well in theory they might cool things), but would warm up the nighttime temps (assuming their were enough of them to make a difference). Could we go back to talking about the star ship? Kelly From popserver Fri Feb 23 14:41:14 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4052" "Fri" "23" "February" "1996" "08:39:03" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "89" "Re: your mail" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from mhub0.tc.umn.edu (mhub0.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.50]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id GAA06637 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 06:40:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by mhub0.tc.umn.edu; Fri, 23 Feb 96 08:39:04 -0600 Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Fri, 23 Feb 96 08:39:04 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199602230547.AAA18693@emout05.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: KellySt@aol.com cc: interstellar drive group , David@interworld.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com, Steve VanDevender , T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: your mail Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 08:39:03 -0600 (CST) On Fri, 23 Feb 1996 KellySt@aol.com wrote: > Linden > > > Kelly, > > > >> I don't understand why you think it keeps the heat out > > >> during daylight? > > >> As far as I know, it keeps the heat in day AND night. > > > > > >Climatologists don't agree on that. Sun light has a large component in > the > > >IR bands. > > > Yes, I know, but "earth-light" is even more intense in that > > band. > > (more intense relative to the sunlight that finds it way > > to the soil) > > No sunlight is hotter in the IR band, and your not talking about the amount > that gets to the ground, your talking about what hits the top of the > atmosphere. IR reflective gasses would reflect that back out. Thus lowering > the solar heat gain. Thus lowering the Earth surface temp during the day. It isn't that sunlight is stronger or lower in the IR bands, it's that earth-light is much much loser in the UV and visible bands. the gases (or whatever) keeps IR from passing, so both solar IR and earthly IR are reflected. The UV and Visible portions of the spectrum usually pass right through and then strike the ground, but the ground doesn't heat up enough to produce visible or UV radiation, so it's sent out as IR. The diving force of the greenhouse is not the difference between earthly IR and Solar IR, it is the difference between solar Visible and UV and Earthly visible and UV (~0) There is very strong data for a temp rise over the last 90-100 years. The question is what caused it. Industrial appologists deny that it has anything to do with them, while environmentalist Luddites want to return to eighteenth century technology. Both are using the available data in the same way that a drunk uses a lampost... not for illumination, but for support. > No, I'm saying that introducing IR reflective gas wouldn't nessisarily heat > up a planet that got most of its surface temp from outside sources. Given yes, it depends on the frequency of the incoming radiation > that a lot of IR reflective gas has been added to the atmosphere without > changing the temp, and no one has a coherent explanation for how it would that is not true. the _has_ been a temp rise over the last 90-100 years. It is small, and it cannot be _proven_ to be caused by the greenhouse gases, but it has occured. > increase the temp, and the whole idea is vigorously debated, I'ld say it Only by those who are afraid to have industrial society collapse around thier ears if the environmentalists win. The Industrialists are right about one thing, we can't stop yet. if we quit burning petrochemicals, we would be starving inside of three months. But the environmentalists are right about something too, we _will_ one day have to stop burning oil, because we are going to run out one day. BTW, Space-based solar energy beamed down by microwave will not solve the greenhouse problem, but will make it worse instead. Energy (microwaves) would be entering the earth's atmosphere, (we'd choose a particularly transparent frequency, to avoid losses) and then be consumed by various items (television, motors, light-bulbs etc) which waste large amounts of energy as heat. The heat would be held in just as it is now, (when talking about a planet, radiation is the only means of heat shedding) But there would be a much larger influx, because solar panels would be collecting sunlight that would have otherwise missed the earth. > > I now don't understand anymore why does it become warm > > in a greenhouse? > > The glass keeps the cold wind out and is a slight insulator. It only works > if its not really cold, and theirs still a lot of sunlight to warm it up in > the day time. Glass works, because it restricts the heat balance to radiation only by preventing convection (i.e. it keeps the cold wind out.) or conduction (i.e. it is a slight insulator) in that respect, it is just like the vacuum of space, that vacuum prevents convection and conduction, and restricts the heat-balance to radiation terms only. Kevin From popserver Sat Feb 24 06:30:38 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2265" "Sat" "24" "February" "1996" "00:04:26" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "56" "Greenhouse" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id RAA00270 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 17:38:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA24082 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Sat, 24 Feb 1996 00:04:26 +0100 Message-Id: <199602232304.AA24082@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Greenhouse Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 00:04:26 +0100 >> >You keep assuming greenhouse gasses cause global warming. That is an >> >unproven theory. > >> No, I keep assuming that greenhouse gasses do keep the >> heat in and I've never heard (except from you) that it >> keeps the heat out or has no effect at all. > >Sorry. > >How could it keep Earth heat in without keeping some solar heat out? My error, it keeps MORE in than it keeps out: I think I made a mistake, by using the word reflection, it seems that the heat is absorbed by the atmosphere. This means both solar-heat and soil-heat. Other radiation is going through the atmosphere without much interaction. Of course the atmosphere radiates the heat away until an equilibrium exists. This equilibrium has an higher temperature than it would without greenhouse gasses. Let me quote the following: "The surface of the earth is warmer than it would be in the absence of an atmosphere because it receives energy from two sources: the sun and the atmosphere." >> You are saying that greenhouse gasses don't exist, or in >> other words there are no gasses that have a higher >> reflectivity for IR-light than for visible and UV-light. > >No, I'm saying that introducing IR reflective gas wouldn't nessisarily heat >up a planet that got most of its surface temp from outside sources. Given >that a lot of IR reflective gas has been added to the atmosphere without >changing the temp, and no one has a coherent explanation for how it would >increase the temp, and the whole idea is vigorously debated, I'ld say it >seems like a dud theory. I've mislead you by saying the greenhouse gasses are reflective for IR, I interpreted the word opaque by reflecting. Having read more about the greenhouse effect this slowly became clear to me. I hope you can see, that this difference makes a lot of difference in our theories. >Could we go back to talking about the star ship? Yes, if we have something to talk about. Everyone seems to be awfully quiet lately... To end this discussion properly, I would strongly recommend that you read the "bad greenhouse" page. (I think you didn't do that yet) I (http://www.ems.psu.edu/~fraser/Bad/BadGreenhouse.html) Timothy P.S. If you read that rather small page, I would really be interested in what you think of it. From popserver Sat Feb 24 06:30:40 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5507" "Sat" "24" "February" "1996" "00:04:17" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "115" "Re: Re: Summary A" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id RAA00338 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 17:39:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA24073 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Sat, 24 Feb 1996 00:04:16 +0100 Message-Id: <199602232304.AA24073@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Re: Re: Summary A Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 00:04:17 +0100 >> As said before, even if the launcher is 100 metres in >> length it still may be difficult. The best thing we could >> do is search for a big asteroid which has no own-rotation >> and is in a far orbit from it's sun (and thus moves not >> much during a few months). > >Everything in fre space tumbles at various speeds and directions. So I assumed there would at least be one that met our wishes. >Ah, I see your mistake. The angular deflection isn't based on the physical >dimentions of the launcher, but on the accuracy and precision of the lateral >correction trim thrusting, and deviation sensors. Yes, I was already expecting that something could be the case. >You measure the course of the accelerating packet with lasers and use lateral >magnetic or electrostatic fields to adjust the direction. (Its easier if you >do this after it leaves the end of the accelerator.) This way the final aim >presision is not related to the size of the launcher. This assumes you can quite accurately steer a packet, but a packet is build up of a lot of small particles all going their own way (of course mainly forwards). So you may be able to influence the general direction but not the individual directions. I think it is the latter that will create the problem. >> That's like extending a rifle to shoot an big asteroid >> instead of a bullet (that's only 1E10). I'm not pointing >> to the extra energy needed, but just to the fact that >> things cannot be enlarged without changing completely. > >Tru the launcher would be more like an electromag cannon then a partical >accelerator (and I really wish I had some numbers on the power a mag launcher >takes) but that doesn't mean the system would scale up linearly with the size >of the load. You could calculate the least amount of energy very easely if you know the exhaust speed and the amount of mass per second. Indeed it would not have to scale up linearly but it also may be worse, namely scale up quadraticly. It often happens when things are scaled down, they become easier to make. That is why I would expect that scaling them up would make it more difficult. >>>>>Same in the ship. >>>> >>>>No, the ship would have much less resources (ores and >>>>machinery). >>> >>>The ship would have identical machinery (it would have to carry it eiather >>>way), I'm not really sure of the extra ore would make a big difference. >> >>I was assuming they could extend=build new tools when >>they arrived (eg. large, low-tech equipment like >>steel-rollers) > >I was assuming the low tech heavy stuff (like structure) would hold together >longer than the lighter deatiled stuff (like IC chips and life support >systems). I wonder if we could change that: make high-tech stuff hold together longer than low-tech stuf. I imagine that in the futere this may become true (think of nanosystems). But for todays-technology it may be possible too. When a memory chip has one bad bit we throw it away, of course we could make it so that just that bit was never used (or that byte, whatever). That is what we often do with low tech equipment, for example scissors, even if they are blunt we can use them although worse than before. For the structure the same thing applies, it will have some backups before a life threathening situation will occur. The only problem is that higher-tech (not highest-tech) has only few redundancies because that isn't efficient in our society. About highest tech, we won't be using that much, since it is inherently dangerous to use systems that haven't proven their workings enough. >> I think that is because so far no one has been recovered >> after being freezed in, most people think that it is >> impossible to revive a person either because of religious >> and/or technical reasons. >> Of course there may be other methods of hibernation that >> are less drastic, although probably all methods mean that >> people should be in a deep coma. I wonder if the media >> likes the idea of killing people just so far that they >> are continiously on the stairway to heaven. > >Oddly, I think most people assume hibernation is trivial. Lots of animals >hybernate for months at a time and stop their motabalism. People have talked >about puting crews in hybernation for long trips for so long that its taken >for granted by people. Yes, but most people also think that walking without spacesuit on another "green" planet is without dangers. I hope that you are not suggesting that the sci-fi movies determine what the public will find acceptable or not. Are you also thinking that hibernation is more or less trivial? Animals that are hibernating do age too, maybe hibernation even decreases the lifetime. ============================================================================= >> OK, I see that. But is it that difficult to extend the >> equipment from making bolts with a precision of 1/1000 >> mm to making a micro chip? > >Well there is, but more importantly you wouldn't ever make a bolt that >precise for structural or heavy systems use. But it may well be that a lot of parts are used upto their maximum capabilities. Otherwise things may become several times bigger and heavier. Having said this, and remembering an earlier part of this letter I could conclude that the lowtech parts which have a natural redundancy may even be bigger or heavier than high-tech parts that have an enlarged artificial redundancy. ("enlarged artificial" meaning, more refined or more duplicates) Tim From popserver Sat Feb 24 06:30:46 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4192" "Sat" "24" "February" "1996" "00:48:03" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "85" "Re: your mail = Greenhouse" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id RAA00432 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 1996 17:39:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA25376 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Sat, 24 Feb 1996 00:48:02 +0100 Message-Id: <199602232348.AA25376@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Re: your mail = Greenhouse Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 00:48:03 +0100 >> No sunlight is hotter in the IR band, and your not talking about the amount >> that gets to the ground, your talking about what hits the top of the >> atmosphere. IR reflective gasses would reflect that back out. Thus lowering >> the solar heat gain. Thus lowering the Earth surface temp during the day. > >It isn't that sunlight is stronger or lower in the IR bands, it's that >earth-light is much much loser in the UV and visible bands. What do you mean by loser? >the gases (or whatever) keeps IR from passing, so both solar IR and >earthly IR are reflected. The UV and Visible portions of the spectrum >usually pass right through and then strike the ground, but the ground >doesn't heat up enough to produce visible or UV radiation, so it's sent >out as IR. The diving force of the greenhouse is not the difference >between earthly IR and Solar IR, it is the difference between solar >Visible and UV and Earthly visible and UV (~0) That is what I thought and it has a certain truth but I think I was wrong using the term reflection, it is better to assume that IR is absorbed on it way through the atmosphere. >> that a lot of IR reflective gas has been added to the atmosphere without >> changing the temp, and no one has a coherent explanation for how it would > >that is not true. the _has_ been a temp rise over the last 90-100 >years. It is small, and it cannot be _proven_ to be caused by the >greenhouse gases, but it has occured. Indeed, NASA is only one experiment. Ground-based weather data show a clear increase. I am interested though why both methods seem to disagree. (CSIRO writes in an article that global temperature did increase the last century, so it is not just a story from the newspapers and environmentalist) >> increase the temp, and the whole idea is vigorously debated, I'ld say it > >Only by those who are afraid to have industrial society collapse around >thier ears if the environmentalists win. The Industrialists are right >about one thing, we can't stop yet. if we quit burning petrochemicals, >we would be starving inside of three months. But the environmentalists >are right about something too, we _will_ one day have to stop burning >oil, because we are going to run out one day. How convenient, whatever we do, we're gonna die anyway ;) >BTW, Space-based solar energy beamed down by microwave will not solve the >greenhouse problem, but will make it worse instead. Energy (microwaves) >would be entering the earth's atmosphere, (we'd choose a particularly >transparent frequency, to avoid losses) and then be consumed by various >items (television, motors, light-bulbs etc) which waste large amounts of >energy as heat. The heat would be held in just as it is now, (when >talking about a planet, radiation is the only means of heat shedding) But >there would be a much larger influx, because solar panels would be >collecting sunlight that would have otherwise missed the earth. I thought of this before and calculated: World energy usage: 10^10 kWh=3.6 10^13 Watt Solar Input at the Earth disc: Pi*(6.378 10^6)^2*1400=1.8 10^17 Watt So Solar radiation is about 5000 times more than current electric power use. (I don't know how much other power, like gass and oil is used) I wonder if this effect is big enough to make a difference, if it does we always could remove some greenhouse gasses or decrease the normal solar input. Besides that, we will move heavy industry to space like Kelly said before. Also appliances will become more efficient than today. >> > I now don't understand anymore why does it become warm >> > in a greenhouse? >> >> The glass keeps the cold wind out and is a slight insulator. It only works >> if its not really cold, and theirs still a lot of sunlight to warm it up in >> the day time. > >Glass works, because it restricts the heat balance to radiation only by >preventing convection (i.e. it keeps the cold wind out.) or conduction >(i.e. it is a slight insulator) in that respect, it is just like the >vacuum of space, that vacuum prevents convection and conduction, and >restricts the heat-balance to radiation terms only. Yeps, I see that now. Timothy From popserver Sat Feb 24 17:57:48 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5183" "Sat" "24" "February" "1996" "02:59:05" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "105" "Re: your mail = Greenhouse" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from mhub1.tc.umn.edu (mhub1.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.51]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id BAA25618 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 01:00:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by mhub1.tc.umn.edu; Sat, 24 Feb 96 02:59:06 -0600 Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Sat, 24 Feb 96 02:59:05 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199602232348.AA25376@student.utwente.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Kevin C Houston To: Timothy van der Linden cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Re: your mail = Greenhouse Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 02:59:05 -0600 (CST) On Sat, 24 Feb 1996, Timothy van der Linden wrote: > >It isn't that sunlight is stronger or lower in the IR bands, it's that > >earth-light is much much loser in the UV and visible bands. > > What do you mean by loser? Sorry, I meant lower. the s key and the w key are too close on my keyboard :) > >that is not true. the _has_ been a temp rise over the last 90-100 > >years. It is small, and it cannot be _proven_ to be caused by the > >greenhouse gases, but it has occured. > > Indeed, NASA is only one experiment. Ground-based weather data show a clear > increase. I am interested though why both methods seem to disagree. (CSIRO > writes in an article that global temperature did increase the last century, > so it is not just a story from the newspapers and environmentalist) One theory, is that it is due to the "heat island" effect around urban centers. but this does not seem adequate in talking about records gathered in small rural towns (like my home town of Viroqua WI)(5megs of nudity pictures if you can find Viroqua on your local map -- No fair going to the library) The population of Viroqua is something like 3600, and the whole town fits within one square mile. Heat island effect cannot explain the temp rise is such pastoral settings. But, this does not prove the assertion that it is caused by greenhouse gases. > How convenient, whatever we do, we're gonna die anyway ;) No, we will just have to find another source of energy, it will either be fusion or space-based solar About the ship: I have a design outline that I would like everyones comment on: 1) Ship leaves Sol using Maser sail. 2) Ship enters TC using MARS lineac. 3) Exploration of TC and construction of maser array. 4) return module (more on this below) leaves TC using Maser sail. 5) Return Module enters Sol using Maser Sail. The Lineac Core, large tanks, rotating hab sections, exploration equipment, etc. would all remain in TC system. only the return module and the maser sail would go back. This should reduce the return module mass by a factor of 25 (from 2.5 E9 to 1 E8)Kg the return module would be the crews quarters during both acceleration phases, the mass should be about 1 E8 Kg (may be too large) during the trip to TC, the return module would be tucked inside the rotating hab sections. the Rotating sections, then are freed from the design criteria of having to adapt to multiple gravity vectors, the rotating portions are designed to rotate only. This greatly increases the amount of interior space available to the TC explorers while in the target system. imagine a Coca-Cola can with a straw through it along the centerline. This would be like the return module with the lineac core. Then imagine the entire assemblage inside a tin can (like for soup)(there would also be RM tanks, but ignore that for now) At TC, the soda can and the straw would be removed from the soup can. the soup can would be spun for gravity, and the researchers would live on the inside surface. extra mass from TC asteroids could be added to the outside to increase the shielding factor. Since the soup can would be staying behind anyway, it could be designed to be like a colony if necessary. The core would be removed from the Cola can, and the cola can would return to earth at the end of the mission. The maser array could be smaller, and regular shuttle flights between the two systems could easily be established if it was found to be economical. the design of the cola can would be very simple, a cylinder about 150 meters in diameter, as long as you like provided the total mass stays about 1 E8 kg. also the interior 50 meters dia is for the core. Anyone wishing to design living space, here is your target. At the midway point, we coast for a few days (crew time) by firing the lineac at just the right strength to cancel the foreward momentum gained by absorbing the maser beam. while we are in this "free fall" state, the cola can is removed from the soup can, and put back upside down. this is mostly accomplished with winches and motors. once the "flipping" manuever is finished, the lineac engine revs up and we begin decelerating into TC. I just realized the core doesn't have to go through the cola can, but I am too lazy to correct the previous paragraphs. And proper design (with a pivot point halfway up the cola can) would allow the can to flip quite easily. During powered phases of the trip, crew would eat stored rations 10 years of pretty good pre-packed food with 10 years of freeze-dried concentrates in case something goes wrong. During the exploration phase, the rotating RM tanks (now empty) can be used as farm space. Also, the return module can be repaired because nobody is living in it. If some alien bacteria should get loose on the rotating portion of the ship, people can escape to the return module. People can be left behind in the star system if they are infected, without worrying that you are being cruel, because they will have a place to live. I will be putting this on a web page soon, so that you all can see what I am talking about. Kevin Houston From popserver Sat Feb 24 17:59:27 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2232" "Sat" "24" "February" "1996" "16:11:58" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "56" "Read this" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id HAA05864 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 07:13:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA06943 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 24 Feb 1996 16:11:58 +0100 Message-Id: <199602241511.AA06943@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Read this Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 16:11:58 +0100 Hi all, I found something on a NASA ftp-site: ftp://explorer.arc.nasa.gov/pub/SPACE/FAQ/eder_transport_list The total size is 111 Kb. I added the introduction of this article so that you can see if you already know it or to make you curious.. Canonical List of Space Transport and Engineering Methods Version 0.75 28 Jun 1994 Introduction This document is a list of all known space transport methods and some space engineering methods. It includes only those methods whose underlying physical principles are understood (i.e. no warp drives as in Star Trek). It is the product of a number of years of collecting - and occasionally inventing - them. I am motivated by a desire to see civilization expand into space and my frustration by the slow pace of progress at the current time. Most current space vehicles and projects use techniques that existed in the 1950's and 1960's. Some new ideas were developed as early as 1960, but have not been put into used even today. From the 1970's to today many additional ideas have been generated. Most of these have received scant attention. By disseminating information on these ideas, I hope others will realize the vast untapped potential contained in these ideas. This draft (version 0.75) lists all the concepts I am aware of, with at least a basic description of each. As you can tell by the version number, which is less than one, this is still very much a work in progress. Later versions of this document are intended to flesh out each method with improved descriptions and current references. If you know of a method which is not on this list, I would appreciate being informed of it. If you have references or text descriptions on a concept, they would be appreciated also. Some related information on the basics of space transport, the forces and energies used, and space project engineering are included. Editorial comments and material that needs lots of editing appear in square brackets. The document contains the following sections: Section A: Basics of Space Transport Section B: Propulsive Forces List Section C: Energy Sources List Section D: Propulsion Concepts List Section E: Space Engineering Methods Section F: General References Timothy From popserver Mon Feb 26 04:07:27 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2889" "Sun" "25" "February" "1996" "23:01:38" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "60" "Re: your mail" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id UAA05053 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 20:03:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA23549; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 23:01:38 -0500 Message-ID: <960225230136_153426059@mail04.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu cc: bmansur@oc.edu, David@interworld.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com, stevev@efn.org, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl Subject: Re: your mail Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 23:01:38 -0500 >> that a lot of IR reflective gas has been added to the atmosphere without >> changing the temp, and no one has a coherent explanation for how it would > that is not true. the _has_ been a temp rise over the last > 90-100 years. It is small, and it cannot be _proven_ to be > caused by the greenhouse gases, but it has occured. Between mid 1800's and mid 1900's the temp droped about 2 degrees F, from mid 1700's to mid 1800's it went up much more than that. (1700's was tail end of the little ice age.) > > --increase the temp, and the whole idea is vigorously > > debated, I'ld say it --- > Only by those who are afraid to have industrial society > collapse around thier ears if the environmentalists win. Hardly. Very little about the climate has any hard strong scientific support. Or even strong data. There is a big debtae over weather the climate is coling, heating, or none of the above. None of the above geting yelled at by camp up and camp down. The only reason global warming gets so much more press is the ecologists are pushing that one. > The Industrialists are right about one thing, we can't stop > yet. if we quit burning petrochemicals, we would be > starving inside of three months. The cities would die of polution and lack of water sooner than that. > But the environmentalists are right about something too, > we _will_ one day have to stop burning oil, because we are > going to run out one day. Not really. Oil geologists figure we have about 200 years worth on earth. If you want to use near eath comet cores you get a few thousand more years worth. Academic thou. The oil industry expects their markets to colapse in the mid 21st century as fussion and usable bateries come on line (there more convenent, and smell better) > BTW, Space-based solar energy beamed down by microwave > will not solve the greenhouse problem, but will make it > worse instead. Energy (microwaves) would be entering > the earth's atmosphere, (we'd choose a particularly > transparent frequency, to avoid losses) and then be > consumed by various items (television, motors, > light-bulbs etc) which waste large amounts of energy > as heat. The heat would be held in just as it is now, > (when talking about a planet, radiation is the only means > of heat shedding) But there would be a much larger > influx, because solar panels would be collecting sunlight > that would have otherwise missed the earth. You of course are ignoring the power plants the microwave plants would replace. Conventional power plants usually generate more heat than electricity. But microwave conversion is highly efficent (90%-99%). So the microwave beem sent down to replace a power plant would eliminate 1-2 times its own power in waste heat from the old power plants. The waste heat from the consumer appliances is of course the same eiather way. Kelly From popserver Mon Feb 26 04:07:29 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3244" "Sun" "25" "February" "1996" "23:01:59" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "79" "Re: Greenhouse" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com (emout06.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.43]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id UAA05158 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 20:04:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA03280; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 23:01:59 -0500 Message-ID: <960225230156_153426319@emout06.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Re: Greenhouse Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 23:01:59 -0500 Timothy van der Linden > >> >You keep assuming greenhouse gasses cause global warming. That is an > >> >unproven theory. > > > >> No, I keep assuming that greenhouse gasses do keep the > >> heat in and I've never heard (except from you) that it > >> keeps the heat out or has no effect at all. > > > >Sorry. > > > >How could it keep Earth heat in without keeping some solar heat out? > My error, it keeps MORE in than it keeps out: That would be a neat trick. In the daytime the bulk of energy would be coming from the sun, so it should reflect/reemmit/whatever more of that then from the earth sources. At night of course it would work the other way around. So you'ld expect a cooling effect in the day and warming at night. > I think I made a mistake, by using the word reflection, > it seems that the heat is absorbed by the atmosphere. > This means both solar-heat and soil-heat. Other radiation > is going through the atmosphere without much interaction. Reflection is a bit simplistic, but the general effect is similar. Oh, and most of the spectrum is effected by its passage through the atmosphere. visible light is the least effected. > Let me quote the following: > "The surface of the earth is warmer than it would be in > the absence of an atmosphere because it receives energy > from two sources: the sun and the atmosphere." Obviously simplistic given the diffences between Earth and moon. Lunar temps snap between 200F degrees above zero to 200f degrees below durring the day night cycle, and change rapidly at sunset/sunrise. Its more corect to say the atmosphere (and water) moderates the temperature changes dramatically. Since they act as heat sinks. > >> You are saying that greenhouse gasses don't exist, or in > >> other words there are no gasses that have a higher > >> reflectivity for IR-light than for visible and UV-light. > > > >No, I'm saying that introducing IR reflective gas wouldn't nessisarily heat > >up a planet that got most of its surface temp from outside sources. Given > >that a lot of IR reflective gas has been added to the atmosphere without > >changing the temp, and no one has a coherent explanation for how it would > >increase the temp, and the whole idea is vigorously debated, I'ld say it > >seems like a dud theory. > I've mislead you by saying the greenhouse gasses > are reflective for IR, I interpreted the word opaque by > reflecting. Having read more about the greenhouse effect > this slowly became clear to me. I hope you can see, that > this difference makes a lot of difference in our theories. Not really. I didn't think eiather os us thought it worked like a mirror (thou I suppose we could have phrased things a bit clearer). > >Could we go back to talking about the star ship? > Yes, if we have something to talk about. Everyone seems > to be awfully quiet lately... Thats true. Maybe even we are runing out of starship ideas. > To end this discussion properly, I would strongly > recommend that you read > the "bad greenhouse" page. (I think you didn't do that yet) > I (http://www.ems.psu.edu/~fraser/Bad/BadGreenhouse.html) Ok, I'll read and comment. I'ld recomend some books, but I've no idea whats avalible in North Europe. Kelly From popserver Mon Feb 26 04:07:31 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["5791" "Sun" "25" "February" "1996" "23:02:06" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "142" "Re: Re: Summary A" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com (emout07.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.22]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id UAA05215 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 20:05:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA13916; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 23:02:06 -0500 Message-ID: <960225230204_153426498@emout07.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Re: Re: Summary A Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 23:02:06 -0500 to: Timothy van der Linden > >Ah, I see your mistake. The angular deflection isn't based on the physical > >dimentions of the launcher, but on the accuracy and precision of the lateral > >correction trim thrusting, and deviation sensors. > Yes, I was already expecting that something could be the case. > >You measure the course of the accelerating packet with lasers and use lateral > >magnetic or electrostatic fields to adjust the direction. (Its easier if you > >do this after it leaves the end of the accelerator.) This way the final aim > >presision is not related to the size of the launcher. > This assumes you can quite accurately steer a packet, > but a packet is build up of a lot of small particles all > going their own way (of course mainly forwards). ---- Who says? A fuel packet could be the size of a fright car of that would help, but I'ld assumed it would be smaller. More like pill to bear can sized. It would almost impossible to spray a charged fog of particals out of a gun and keep them together. Their mutual repulsion would cause them to defuse to much. You'ld have to pack them in mini-containers. I supose you could treat those containers or packets as particals, but I don't think thats what your thinking of. > >-- I really wish I had some numbers on the power a mag > > launcher takes > You could calculate the least amount of energy very easely > if you know the exhaust speed and the amount of mass > per second. If you send the equations along I'll run some numbers through for my summary documents. > >>>>>Same in the ship. > >>>> > >>>>No, the ship would have much less resources (ores and > >>>>machinery). > >>> > >>>The ship would have identical machinery (it would have to carry it eiather > >>>way), I'm not really sure of the extra ore would make a big difference. > >> > >>I was assuming they could extend=build new tools when > >>they arrived (eg. large, low-tech equipment like > >>steel-rollers) > > > >I was assuming the low tech heavy stuff (like structure) would hold together > >longer than the lighter deatiled stuff (like IC chips and life support > >systems). > I wonder if we could change that: make high-tech stuff > hold together longer than low-tech stuf. I imagine that > in the future this may become true (think of nanosystems). > But for todays-technology it may be possible too. When a > memory chip has one bad bit we throw it away, of course > we could make it so that just that bit was never used (or > that byte, whatever). -- You could rig up the systems to degrade in capacity not just fail. But the more detailed the structures (like the inside of Nanos) the more slight defects will disrupt the function of the system. (I'n not optimistic about Nanos longevity in radiation fields.) > -- For the structure the same thing applies, it > will have some backups before a life threathening > situation will occur. They alway design them that way, but for things that need high performance per dry weight (like high speed craft) that gets to be a problem quickly. > The only problem is that higher-tech (not highest-tech) > has only few redundancies because that isn't efficient > in our society. About highest tech, we won't be using > that much, since it is inherently dangerous to use systems > that haven't proven their workings enough. Redundancies start to drastically degrade the performance of some systems (like I.C. chips), and we may (or may not) need all the performance we can get for a starship. > >> I think that is because so far no one has been recovered > >> after being freezed in, most people think that it is > >> impossible to revive a person either because of religious > >> and/or technical reasons. > >> Of course there may be other methods of hibernation that > >> are less drastic, although probably all methods mean that > >> people should be in a deep coma. I wonder if the media > >> likes the idea of killing people just so far that they > >> are continiously on the stairway to heaven. > > > >Oddly, I think most people assume hibernation is trivial. Lots of animals > >hybernate for months at a time and stop their motabalism. People have talked > >about puting crews in hybernation for long trips for so long that its taken > >for granted by people. > Yes, but most people also think that walking without > spacesuit on another "green" planet is without dangers. Agreed. > I hope that you are not suggesting that the sci-fi > movies determine what the public will find acceptable > or not. Unfortunatly it will. SF is as close as most people bother to get to science, and the SF movies and books reflect or display the publics assumptions. An example is the move Blade Runner, which was set in an L.A. slumb of the mid 21st century. The producer filled it with stuff from 1940 detective novels and high tech exotica. Yet everyone assumed it was a serious projection of the future. Even critisizing him for the ending where the characters drove out of L.A. to a green and beutify countryside. Which they thought couldn't exist or people wouldn't live in the slumbs. He pointed out thats how it is now, where an hour or two drive separtes the worst poluted slumbs from the green and sparsly populated countryside. Anyway, in a political arena peoples techno prejidices will effect the projects and the protest to them. Every analysis of nuclear powe shows its not capable of poluting as mouch as the coal plants it would replace. Yet nukes get intense public and governmental polution and safty attention, coal little. > Are you also thinking that hibernation is more or less > trivial? No, just that I beleave the public thinks it is. But in politics reality is unimportant, impressions are everything. Kelly From popserver Mon Feb 26 04:07:34 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["336" "Sun" "25" "February" "1996" "23:02:44" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "15" "Re: Read this" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id UAA05217 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 20:05:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA24122; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 23:02:44 -0500 Message-ID: <960225230242_153426874@mail04.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Re: Read this Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 23:02:44 -0500 > Hi all, > I found something on a NASA ftp-site: > ftp://explorer.arc.nasa.gov/pub/SPACE/FAQ/eder_transport_list > The total size is 111 Kb. I added the introduction of this > article so that you can see if you already know it or to > make you curious.. Oh yeah, The Danny Elder document. I'll have to get a newer copy. Kelly From popserver Mon Feb 26 04:07:35 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1439" "Sun" "25" "February" "1996" "23:02:22" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "36" "Re: your mail = Greenhouse" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id UAA05233 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 20:05:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA01896; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 23:02:22 -0500 Message-ID: <960225230221_153426623@mail02.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Re: your mail = Greenhouse Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 23:02:22 -0500 to: Timothy van der Linden > >It isn't that sunlight is stronger or lower in the IR bands, it's that > >earth-light is much much loser in the UV and visible bands. > What do you mean by loser? Sorry, typo. I ment lower. ================ > >> that a lot of IR reflective gas has been added to the atmosphere without > >> changing the temp, and no one has a coherent explanation for how it would > > > >that is not true. the _has_ been a temp rise over the last 90-100 > >years. It is small, and it cannot be _proven_ to be caused by the > >greenhouse gases, but it has occured. > Indeed, NASA is only one experiment. Ground-based > weather data show a clear increase. I am interested > though why both methods seem to disagree. (CSIRO > writes in an article that global temperature did > increase the last century, so it is not just a story > from the newspapers and environmentalist) What isthe CSIRO and how did they get their data. To my knowledge NASA is the only attempt to get global temperature data. Obviously most of the world has no regular temperature data taken even now, and the rest seldom bothers to compensate for the temperature changes at the measuring site due to subburban growth. The best long term (multi century) data is from ecological drift. In the U'S. that shows a gradual (with bumps) cooling over the last 800 years, but of course that neiather here nor there in a green house debate. Kelly From popserver Mon Feb 26 04:07:36 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4588" "Sun" "25" "February" "1996" "23:02:33" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "127" "Re: your mail = Greenhouse" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: KellySt@aol.com Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id UAA05276 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 20:05:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA23999; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 23:02:33 -0500 Message-ID: <960225230232_153426764@mail04.mail.aol.com> From: KellySt@aol.com To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl cc: stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Re: your mail = Greenhouse Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 23:02:33 -0500 to: Kevin C Houston > On Sat, 24 Feb 1996, Timothy van der Linden wrote: > > >It isn't that sunlight is stronger or lower in the IR bands, it's that > > >earth-light is much much loser in the UV and visible bands. > > > > What do you mean by loser? > Sorry, I meant lower. the s key and the w key are too > close on my keyboard :) You said that? > > >that is not true. the _has_ been a temp rise over the last 90-100 > > >years. It is small, and it cannot be _proven_ to be caused by the > > >greenhouse gases, but it has occured. > > > > Indeed, NASA is only one experiment. Ground-based weather data show a clear > > increase. I am interested though why both methods seem to disagree. (CSIRO > > writes in an article that global temperature did increase the last century, > > so it is not just a story from the newspapers and environmentalist) > One theory, is that it is due to the "heat island" effect > around urban centers. but this does not seem adequate > in talking about records gathered in small rural towns > (like my home town of Viroqua WI) The population of > Viroqua is something like 3600, and the whole town > fits within one square mile. Heat island effect > cannot explain the temp rise is such pastoral settings. Suppose that would depend on where they put the thermometer? > > How convenient, whatever we do, we're gonna die anyway ;) > No, we will just have to find another source of energy, > it will either be fusion or space-based solar I thought you just argued against space based solar? > About the ship: > I have a design outline that I would like everyones comment on: > 1) Ship leaves Sol using Maser sail. > 2) Ship enters TC using MARS lineac. > 3) Exploration of TC and construction of maser array. > 4) return module (more on this below) leaves TC using Maser sail. > 5) Return Module enters Sol using Maser Sail. Last I heard the numbers showed the lineac core couldn't over power the boost from the micro wave. I.E. no brakes! > The Lineac Core, large tanks, rotating hab sections, > exploration equipment, etc. would all remain in TC > system. only the return module and the maser sail > would go back. This should reduce the return module > mass by a factor of 25 (from 2.5 E9 to 1 E8)Kg You'ld need the hab centrafuge for the living quarters otherwise the crews health would decline. Also the heavy radiation shielding would need to be carried. Why do you assume a factor of 25 weight reduction? You never gave any weight breakdown numbers. > the return module would be the crews quarters during > both acceleration phases, the mass should be about > 1 E8 Kg (may be too large) --- Whats your crew compliment? 100,000 tons does leave a lot of weight for shilding. > --- during the trip to TC, the return module would be > tucked inside the rotating hab sections. the Rotating > sections, then are freed from the design criteria > of having to adapt to multiple gravity vectors, the > rotating portions are designed to rotate only. -- Sounds like you just doubled the size of the habitation zones. One complete set for accel and decel, another for artificial G (centrafuge) operations. > --- This greatly increases the amount of interior > space available to the TC explorers while in the target > system. I don't see how. ---< snip>--- > I will be putting this on a web page soon, so that you > all can see what I am talking about. > Kevin Houston I hope I can get to it over the web. ;) Kelly ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- >From hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Sat Feb 24 03:59:50 1996 Return-Path: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Received: from mhub1.tc.umn.edu (mhub1.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.51]) by emin18.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA23953 for ; Sat, 24 Feb 1996 03:59:49 -0500 Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by mhub1.tc.umn.edu; Sat, 24 Feb 96 02:59:06 -0600 Received: by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Sat, 24 Feb 96 02:59:05 -0600 Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 02:59:05 -0600 (CST) From: Kevin C Houston To: Timothy van der Linden cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Re: your mail = Greenhouse In-Reply-To: <199602232348.AA25376@student.utwente.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From popserver Mon Feb 26 21:47:50 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1512" "Mon" "26" "February" "1996" "08:32:21" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "41" "Re: Fwd: Greenhouse" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Received: from most.fw.hac.com (gw1.magec.com [151.168.2.3]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id FAA26255 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 05:37:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by most.fw.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04864; Mon, 26 Feb 96 08:35:46 EST Received: from unknown(151.168.254.82) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI004739; Mon Feb 26 08:33:21 1996 Received: by most (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02751; Mon, 26 Feb 96 08:33:16 EST Received: from ss4.fw.hac.com(151.168.145.199) by most via smap (V1.5khhunt) id sma002735; Mon Feb 26 08:32:22 1996 Received: from [151.168.146.187] (kgstar) by ss4.uiv (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA21113; Mon, 26 Feb 96 08:32:19 EST X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, KellySt@aol.com Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Subject: Re: Fwd: Greenhouse Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 08:32:21 -0500 >To end this discussion properly, I would strongly recommend that you read >the "bad greenhouse" page. (I think you didn't do that yet) I >(http://www.ems.psu.edu/~fraser/Bad/BadGreenhouse.html) > > >Timothy > >P.S. If you read that rather small page, I would really be interested in >what you think of it. Not a bad discussion and debunking of greenhouse effect myths such as "The greenhouse effect is caused when gases in the atmosphere behave as a blanket and trap radiation which is then reradiated to the earth." etc... The author seems about as frustrated with nonscience being bounced around and I am. The statement that "the surface of the earth receives nearly twice as much energy from the atmosphere as it does from the sun." might be a bit confusing. Obviously the atmospher acts as a transport mechanism not an energy source in the true sence (I.E. the atmosphere doesn't generate any energy). But thats a comparativly minor point. I was a little suprized you brought it up, given that this doesn't discus global warming or the so called "greenhouse effect" (i.e. artificial greenhouse gases altering atmospheric IR transmitions) that we've been arguing about. Kelly ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Sr. Systems Engineer Magnavox Electronic Systems Company (Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From popserver Mon Feb 26 21:48:42 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3165" "Mon" "26" "February" "1996" "09:57:00" "PST" "Brian Mansur" "bmansur@oc.edu" nil "56" "; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 07:58:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mainpobox.oc.edu by einstein.oc.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/16Oct95-0320PM) id AA15287; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 09:55:58 -0600 Received: by mainpobox.oc.edu with Microsoft Mail id <3131F41E@mainpobox.oc.edu>; Mon, 26 Feb 96 09:55:42 PST Message-Id: <3131F41E@mainpobox.oc.edu> Encoding: 56 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 From: Brian Mansur To: Kelly Starks Cc: David , hous0042 , jim , rddesign , stevev , "T.L.G.vanderLinden" , zkulpa Subject: ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 10:55:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mainpobox.oc.edu by einstein.oc.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/16Oct95-0320PM) id AA14125; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 12:53:07 -0600 Received: by mainpobox.oc.edu with Microsoft Mail id <31321DA2@mainpobox.oc.edu>; Mon, 26 Feb 96 12:52:50 PST Message-Id: <31321DA2@mainpobox.oc.edu> Encoding: 38 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 From: Brian Mansur To: David Cc: hous0042 , jim , Kelly Starks , rddesign , stevev , "T.L.G.vanderLinden" , zkulpa Subject: My Two Bits Ain't Worth 1E-15cents Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 12:54:00 PST Okay, I just realized something about my two bits worth. They ain't worth squat. I ran the numbers for 11GW/ton/s on my portable RPB decelerator idea and came back to the same problem that Kelly has with his Explorer design. We need too stinkin much power. Assuming 11GW/ton/s to accelerate a measly .036 g and using a De + 3He reaction that yields 3.606E14 Watts/kg and applying that over the time it takes to accelerate to 1/3c at .036 g the numbers got supremely ugly in terms of fusion fuel weight. Back to the drawing board. Perhaps the launcher idea could still work with the Explorer design. What we have to do turn the Asimov into its own fuel launcher. Have the ship rail gun launch most to all of the ship's reaction mass behind it. The particles will have to be at least fast enough to cover a .25 ly track in the time it takes to cruise to Tau Ceti (if we could keep the track together over that amount of time and distance, would it be easier to launch the track from Earth?). As the Asimov begins its deceleration phase, the relatively faster moving reaction mass track slams back into the ship. We ionize the RM and run it through the accelerator for thrust just as if it were interstellar medium. A downside to this idea is the drag caused by hitting the really fast particles at the end of the deceleration run. Also there are going to be serious power cost to launch the track. Kevin's 11.5 ly long power cord is looking better all the time. Since we'll have to carry so much reaction mass for the launch track, I suggest we use the E18W we have planned to mag-sail launch the ship. So I guess we launch the track via the ion accelerator using it as a rail gun if that is possible. Someone else had better run the numbers on the drag and power needs. That is if anyone thinks this has a chance of working. If not, please show me the error of my ways. From popserver Mon Feb 26 21:49:31 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3342" "Mon" "26" "February" "1996" "13:03:00" "PST" "Brian Mansur" "bmansur@oc.edu" nil "75" "My Two Bits Ain't Worth 1E-15 (Take 2)" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: bmansur@oc.edu Received: from einstein.oc.edu (DNS2.OC.EDU [205.143.216.15]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id LAA20008 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 11:04:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mainpobox.oc.edu by einstein.oc.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/16Oct95-0320PM) id AA17417; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 13:01:50 -0600 Received: by mainpobox.oc.edu with Microsoft Mail id <31321FAD@mainpobox.oc.edu>; Mon, 26 Feb 96 13:01:33 PST Message-Id: <31321FAD@mainpobox.oc.edu> Encoding: 76 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 From: Brian Mansur To: David Cc: hous0042 , jim , Kelly Starks , rddesign , stevev , "T.L.G.vanderLinden" , zkulpa Subject: My Two Bits Ain't Worth 1E-15 (Take 2) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 13:03:00 PST Okay, I just realized something about my two bits worth. They ain't worth squat. I ran the numbers for 11GW/ton/s on my portable RPB decelerator idea and came back to the same problem that Kelly has with his Explorer design. We need too stinkin much power. Assuming 11GW/ton/s to accelerate a measly .036 g and using a De + 3He reaction that yields 3.606E14 Watts/kg and applying that over the time it takes to accelerate to 1/3c at .036 g the numbers got supremely ugly in terms of fusion fuel weight. Back to the drawing board. Perhaps the launcher idea could still work with the Explorer design. What we have to do turn the Asimov into its own fuel launcher. Have the ship rail gun launch most to all of the ship's reaction mass behind it. The particles will have to be at least fast enough to cover a .25 ly track in the time it takes to cruise to Tau Ceti. I wonder: If we could keep the track together over that amount of time and distance, would it be easier to launch the track from Earth? Would the stablizing system that Kevin told us about help? I noticed this discussion but I don't know if it answers my question: to: Timothy van der Linden > >Ah, I see your mistake. The angular deflection isn't based on the physical > >dimentions of the launcher, but on the accuracy and precision of the lateral > >correction trim thrusting, and deviation sensors. > Yes, I was already expecting that something could be the case. > >You measure the course of the accelerating packet with lasers and use lateral > >magnetic or electrostatic fields to adjust the direction. (Its easier if you > >do this after it leaves the end of the accelerator.) This way the final aim > >presision is not related to the size of the launcher. > This assumes you can quite accurately steer a packet, > but a packet is build up of a lot of small particles all > going their own way (of course mainly forwards). ---- Who says? A fuel packet could be the size of a fright car of that would help, but I'ld assumed it would be smaller. More like pill to bear can sized. It would almost impossible to spray a charged fog of particals out of a gun and keep them together. Their mutual repulsion would cause them to defuse to much. You'ld have to pack them in mini-containers. I supose you could treat those containers or packets as particals, but I don't think thats what your thinking of. So is the answer yes or no. As the Asimov begins its deceleration phase, the relatively faster moving reaction mass track slams back into the ship. We ionize the RM and run it through the accelerator for thrust just as if it were interstellar medium. A downside to this idea is the drag caused by hitting the really fast particles at the end of the deceleration run. Also there are going to be serious power cost to launch the track. Kevin's 11.5 ly long power cord is looking better all the time. Since we'll have to carry so much reaction mass for the launch track, I suggest we use the E18W we have planned to mag-sail launch the ship. So I guess we launch the track via the ion accelerator using it as a rail gun if that is possible. Someone else had better run the numbers on the drag and power needs. That is if anyone thinks this has a chance of working. If not, please show me the error of my ways. From popserver Tue Feb 27 07:31:07 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["2595" "Tue" "27" "February" "1996" "07:20:22" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "62" "Re: Greenhouse" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id WAA18107 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 22:21:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA13800 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 27 Feb 1996 07:20:10 +0100 Message-Id: <199602270620.AA13800@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Re: Greenhouse Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 07:20:22 +0100 To Kelly >>>How could it keep Earth heat in without keeping some solar heat out? >>My error, it keeps MORE in than it keeps out: > >That would be a neat trick. In the daytime the bulk of energy would be >coming from the sun, so it should reflect/reemmit/whatever more of that then >from the earth sources. At night of course it would work the other way >around. So you'ld expect a cooling effect in the day and warming at night. I think the problem is that we cannot compare radiation temperature with ambient temperature so easely. If you lay a black piece of paper on the ground at a calm hot summer day, it will become very hot, my guess is that it will be about as hot as a similar paper on the moon. >> I think I made a mistake, by using the word reflection, >> it seems that the heat is absorbed by the atmosphere. >> This means both solar-heat and soil-heat. Other radiation >> is going through the atmosphere without much interaction. > >Reflection is a bit simplistic, but the general effect is similar. No, absorbtion means the atmosphere can get warmer, while in the case of reflection it gets no chance to do that. >Oh, and most of the spectrum is effected by its passage through the >atmosphere. visible light is the least effected. Yes, I should have said has less interaction than IR. >> Let me quote the following: >> "The surface of the earth is warmer than it would be in >> the absence of an atmosphere because it receives energy >> from two sources: the sun and the atmosphere." > >Obviously simplistic given the diffences between Earth and moon. Lunar temps >snap between 200F degrees above zero to 200f degrees below durring the day >night cycle, and change rapidly at sunset/sunrise. Its more corect to say >the atmosphere (and water) moderates the temperature changes dramatically. > Since they act as heat sinks. See also above about comparing radiation temps with abient temps. Besides that I assume that the mean temperature of the Earth is about 30 degrees higher than the temps on the Moon. >> To end this discussion properly, I would strongly >> recommend that you read >> the "bad greenhouse" page. (I think you didn't do that yet) >> I (http://www.ems.psu.edu/~fraser/Bad/BadGreenhouse.html) > >Ok, I'll read and comment. I'ld recomend some books, but I've no idea whats >avalible in North Europe. You can check what is available in my library :) telnet://utlbs3.civ.utwente.nl:23 At least I think it is a non-local connection. Just type "PCEL" or some of the other passwords that are given. Don't reserve books in my name! :) Timothy From popserver Tue Feb 27 07:31:09 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["4555" "Tue" "27" "February" "1996" "07:20:28" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "91" "Re: Re: Summary A" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id WAA18111 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 22:21:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA13803 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 27 Feb 1996 07:20:30 +0100 Message-Id: <199602270620.AA13803@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Re: Re: Summary A Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 07:20:28 +0100 To Kelly, >> This assumes you can quite accurately steer a packet, >> but a packet is build up of a lot of small particles all >> going their own way (of course mainly forwards). ---- > >Who says? A fuel packet could be the size of a fright car of that would >help, but I'ld assumed it would be smaller. More like pill to bear can >sized. It would almost impossible to spray a charged fog of particals out of >a gun and keep them together. Their mutual repulsion would cause them to >defuse to much. You'ld have to pack them in mini-containers. I supose you >could treat those containers or packets as particals, but I don't think thats >what your thinking of. Yes, you are right, lets assume packets of 1 kg. Can we accelerate them up to 1E8 m/sec in an accelerator of a few hundreds of metres? I guess, I'm a little overwhelmed by the amount of energy again, but forgetting that, are you planning to use magnetic or charged acceleration? Let do a quick calculation about the acceleration needed: v=x*t a=v*t --> a=v^2/x = 1E16/100 = 1E14 m/s^2 >>>I really wish I had some numbers on the power a mag >>>launcher takes >>You could calculate the least amount of energy very easely >>if you know the exhaust speed and the amount of mass >>per second. >If you send the equations along I'll run some numbers through for my summary >documents. Non-relativistic: Power needed = 0.5 M Vexh^2 Watts M=Mass per second Vexh=exhaus velocity (I'm sorry that it is so simple) >You could rig up the systems to degrade in capacity not just fail. But the >more detailed the structures (like the inside of Nanos) the more slight >defects will disrupt the function of the system. (I'n not optimistic about >Nanos longevity in radiation fields.) What I was hoping is that the quantity could overcome the quality: A lot of nanos could undo the work of a few broken-nanos. Untill the amount get 75-25 still a lot of work can be done. Of course this doesn't rule out the statistical breakdown after a longer period. But only the few extremeties, like the 1:1000 chance of not working directly after manufacturing. I'm quite sure that if we made chips today with size as 10 years ago, we could make them much more robust. OK, all in all, redundancy only works to reduce the number of incidences, but not the total "decay". But the number of incidences may be quite high without redundancies. >> The only problem is that higher-tech (not highest-tech) >> has only few redundancies because that isn't efficient >> in our society. About highest tech, we won't be using >> that much, since it is inherently dangerous to use systems >> that haven't proven their workings enough. > >Redundancies start to drastically degrade the performance of some systems >(like I.C. chips), and we may (or may not) need all the performance we can >get for a starship. Maybe this is something that we did not dig out enough, we all assumed that the engine designs we came up with would work without much problems for most of the time they were needed. But is it really that easy? I wouldn't like to have two enormous engines and one of them suddenly(?) stops working. In the best case we could turn of the other within time. Worst case, the starship would start to rotate an be ripped apart by all the abnormal g-forces. Besides this, can we savely have an engine shutdown for say a week. I can imagine that for beamed energy this may be a problem. (eg. Non matching speeds of beamed matter). So how much backup do we need, does it mean that the whole ship gets twice as big? >Anyway, in a political arena peoples techno prejidices will effect the >projects and the protest to them. Every analysis of nuclear powe shows its >not capable of poluting as mouch as the coal plants it would replace. Yet >nukes get intense public and governmental polution and safty attention, coal >little. Yes, it's sad, however a single mayor error in a nuclear plant can make a whole country (like the Netherlands) inhabitable for a long time. Anyway lets hope fission or renewable energy will soon replace most of them. >> Are you also thinking that hibernation is more or less >> trivial? > >No, just that I beleave the public thinks it is. But in politics reality is >unimportant, impressions are everything. Indeed, maybe it is time to start a (yet another) new science fiction series to promote our ideas and collect money by selling T-shirts, computergames and stocks for our company to be (Live internet discussions and camera shots). (I'm not really kidding...) Timothy From popserver Tue Feb 27 07:31:12 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1154" "Tue" "27" "February" "1996" "07:20:34" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "22" "Re: your mail = Greenhouse" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id WAA18117 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 22:21:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA13806 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 27 Feb 1996 07:20:35 +0100 Message-Id: <199602270620.AA13806@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Re: your mail = Greenhouse Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 07:20:34 +0100 >> Indeed, NASA is only one experiment. Ground-based >> weather data show a clear increase. I am interested >> though why both methods seem to disagree. (CSIRO >> writes in an article that global temperature did >> increase the last century, so it is not just a story >> from the newspapers and environmentalist) > >What isthe CSIRO and how did they get their data. To my knowledge NASA is >the only attempt to get global temperature data. Obviously most of the world >has no regular temperature data taken even now, and the rest seldom bothers >to compensate for the temperature changes at the measuring site due to >subburban growth. The best long term (multi century) data is from ecological >drift. In the U'S. that shows a gradual (with bumps) cooling over the last >800 years, but of course that neiather here nor there in a green house >debate. I hope I had the letters right, as far as I know it is the main Australian scientific organization. The Australians are concerned a lot about the ozon hole (they are the ones that are most fulnarable) I assume this interest makes them also a bit more aware about the greenhouse effect. Timothy From popserver Tue Feb 27 07:31:14 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["1351" "Tue" "27" "February" "1996" "07:20:40" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "34" "Re: Fwd: Greenhouse" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Received: from student.utwente.nl (driene.student.utwente.nl [130.89.220.2]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id WAA18132 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 22:21:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from slp10048.slip.utwente.nl by student.utwente.nl with SMTP id AA13813 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 27 Feb 1996 07:20:42 +0100 Message-Id: <199602270620.AA13813@student.utwente.nl> X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden) To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com Subject: Re: Fwd: Greenhouse Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 07:20:40 +0100 Kelly wrote: >>P.S. If you read that rather small page, I would really be interested in >>what you think of it. > >Not a bad discussion and debunking of greenhouse effect myths such as "The >greenhouse effect is caused when gases in the atmosphere behave as a >blanket and trap radiation which is then reradiated to the earth." etc... >The author seems about as frustrated with nonscience being bounced around >and I am. > >The statement that "the surface of the earth receives nearly twice as much >energy from the atmosphere as it does from the sun." might be a bit >confusing. Obviously the atmospher acts as a transport mechanism not an >energy source in the true sence (I.E. the atmosphere doesn't generate any >energy). But thats a comparativly minor point. Yes, I see what you mean. >I was a little suprized you brought it up, given that this doesn't discus >global warming or the so called "greenhouse effect" (i.e. artificial >greenhouse gases altering atmospheric IR transmitions) that we've been >arguing about. Yes, I also read an other page, that was quite large (that one of the CSIRO) Greenhouse basics: http://www.erin.gov.au/portfolio/esd/climate/grenbasi.html I referred ro "Bad Greenhouse" because it made so clear what the main effects were and because it compared a normal greenhouse with the greenhouse effect. Timothy From popserver Tue Feb 27 20:29:39 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["9752" "Tue" "27" "February" "1996" "13:21:54" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "188" "Draft text Externally fueled Fusion drive" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Received: from most.fw.hac.com (gw1.magec.com [151.168.2.3]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id KAA25157 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 10:24:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by most.fw.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02896; Tue, 27 Feb 96 13:23:17 EST Received: from unknown(151.168.254.82) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI002831; Tue Feb 27 13:22:30 1996 Received: by most (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09772; Tue, 27 Feb 96 13:22:26 EST Received: from ss4.fw.hac.com(151.168.145.199) by most via smap (V1.5khhunt) id sma009766; Tue Feb 27 13:21:56 1996 Received: from [151.168.146.187] (kgstar) by ss4.uiv (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02210; Tue, 27 Feb 96 13:21:52 EST X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Subject: Draft text Externally fueled Fusion drive Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 13:21:54 -0500 Heres some more text to look over. Attack at will. This is what I consider the baseline drive system for my Explorer class design. Kelly Oh, if anyone wants. I can send set of the graphics and HTML files for this and the others. Let me know. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Primary Drive System: Externally Fueled Fusion Rocket Out of the likely ashes of my Multi-cycle Ram Augmented Interstellar Ramjet (RAIR) drive, I kept one solid piece. The idea of launching fuel to the ship from a fixed launcher in Sol (our home starsystem). The fuel/reaction mass mixtures could be launched as anything from aspirin sized pellets, to truck sized expendable mini-tankers. The former could be scooped up and fused as is, the later could could be docked and off-loaded. I'm not going to go into a detailed analysis of the pros and cons of the different systems, but their are a lot of pros and cons for each. A stream of pellets would be easier to launch and offer less impact danger to the ship. But the pellets would be harder to keep together at a distance from the launcher, and harder for the ship to recover. The ship would need a ramscoop to scoop up its fuel, and when the packets drifted to far to the sides, the ship couldn't pick them up. Mini-tankers on the other hand could use onboard rockets to maneuver to meet the ship. Possibly the ship could beam power to them (via lasers or microwaves) that could be used to drive the tankers attitude rockets, and order it to maneuver in front of the ship for pick up. Or a system like passive laser launchers could be used. These would just require the tanker to have a large block of reaction mass on its backside. The ship could boost, and steer the tankers remotely using lasers. Without any equipment on the tankers. Either way the ship could catch fuel tankers that had drifted thousands, possibly tens of thousands of miles off to the side of the ships flight path. Far more then possible with scoop system. Either way an externally feed system would mean that, the ship wouldn't need to carry the tremendous tonnage of fuel and reaction mass it would need for the flight. Launched fuel and reaction would only be carried by the ship from the time it entered the holding tanks, to the time it was burned. How this would work in each phase of the flight is described below Accelerating out of Sol, our star system. The ship would be heavy. Not only with the weight of its own systems and structure, but food and equipment for the mission, exploration equipment, the crew and their homes; and weighing dozens of times all the rest combined, deceleration fuel (See fusion rocket mass tables). The ships final cruse speed will be limited to the maximum speed it can decelerate from with the amount of fuel it can carry. Given the years of flight time involved, every effort will be made to load the ship with fuel. Pulling out of Our star system, Sol, the ship will accelerate at one ship G, accelerating 10 meters per second, per second. A orbiting launcher will launch the fuel and extra reaction mass the ships motors will need. The ship will be continuously picking up these fuel packets, and feeding their contents into the fusion motors. This will continue until the ship reaches the maximum speed it can slow down from. If the orbiting launcher can still get fuel close enough to the ship for it to pick up, extra fuel can be set out to increase the breaking supply. Possibly allowing the ship to accelerate a little more, giving extra speed for the long flight. Because of the deceleration fuel limitation, it is unlikely that the ship can get to more than a quarter or a third of the speed of light. But that's still a 100,000 kilometers per second. The ship will need to protect itself against impacts. One of the simplest ideas is to push several miles of charged dust ahead of the ship. Ramming a cloud of charged iron dust at a 360,000,000 kilometers per hours will turn most anything into ionized plasma. Which can be shoved ahead of the ship, or off to the sides, by the charges dust cloud handler. Effectively most anything you run into at speed will become more shielding dust. Decelerating into the target star system. Now for the bad news - you have to slow down. We can't pre-load a deceleration course track into the target star with fuel across interstellar distances. So your stuck with the fuel you brought along. Unless we can come up with a neat magnetic trick to brake the ship in empty space (sorry no luck), its fire up the reactors and put things into reverse. Cruising around the target star system At low speed interplanetary runs, the drive works like a conventional fusion rocket burning stored fuel and reaction mass. But the engines that could get us across interstellar space only with difficulty. Can now make this huge ship commute around the confines of a starsystem with ease. A ten hour burn of the main engines will would get you from earth to Jupiter in about a month, or Mars in a week. A two day burn would get you to Jupiter in less than a week. Under four days of constant burn will get you to Mars. About a week of constant burn will get you to Jupiter. Once in system the main ship will be shuttling surface teams, support ships, and equipment around the star system. It size and speed will allow it to drag around tremendous loads of equipment or raw material. It could haul ore in to a construction site for a space colony. Or to a fuel ore processing facility. It will be carrying all the exploration equipment and personnel to anywhere of interest in the starsystem. Accelerating out of the system to go home. As the exploration phase comes to an end the support crew will be processing the tremendous tonnage of fuel ore necessary to refuel the ship for the boost to home. This fuel could be carried on the ship. All those fuel tanks you emptied decelerating into the starsystem could be filled to accelerate you back to home. Or (possibly) the crew could construct a fuel launcher like the one the ship used to leave home. If an automated fuel launcher could be constructed in the target starsystem, and the one near earth relied upon for braking fuel, the ship could launch with her fuel tanks nearly empty. Without the massive load of fuel and exploration equipment the ship could weight a hundredth of its loaded weight when it left Sol. This would allow it to boost faster and to higher speeds, even if the local fuel launcher could only launch a tiny fraction of the fuel the Sol launcher could, even if most of the drive reactors and motors were disabled. Potentially giving this missions crew a much shorter flight home, and allowing future missions into this star system a much shorter round trip. An automated fuel launcher maybe to complicated to big for the crew to construct. But if enough construction gear can be brought along (or some ultra tech like self replicating machines is assumed), this would greatly expand the amount of flights and exploration we could do to this star system. Decelerating into of Sol, our star system. Since the ship can assume that the orbiting fuel launcher in Sol will be turned on to help it slow down. The ship wouldn't need to be heavily loaded down with deceleration fuel. By this point in the mission the ship will be comparatively light. Its fuel tanks empty. Most of the food and consumables consumed. Probably most of the exploration gear left behind. The ship will be coming home needing fuel. Or will it? The ships cruise speed will be a fraction of the speed of light, and it will be flying straight toward the fuel launcher. Obviously a nice neat docking with the incoming fuel packets is out of the question. You could of course use the lasers to steer a mini-tanker in front of the ship and then explode the tanker. The contents will slam into the ships forward dust shield and be heated to plasma. That plasma could be scooped up and channeled into reactors to power the reverse engines. Or Is that necessary? Whatever blasts through the dust shield is going to be hot! The forward electromagnetic barriers that shove the dust ahead of the ship are going to be ramming into, pushing forward, a plasma ball an eight of a mile in diameter and length unknown) ahead of the ship. If their is any fusion fuel in the mess, its probably going to be fusing out ahead of the ship. Effectively the front of the ship will be an open fusion motor. If the launcher isn't firing fuel. Whatever it is launching is still going to be a hellish fireball ahead of the ship. Effectively the ship will be breaking against this artificially induced drag source. You wouldn't even need to run the reactors to keep the electromagnetic nose shield charged. Ducting a little of the plasma through a central core will allow you to use the core as a generator. Converting the energy of the high speed plasma into electricity. Or more correctly converting the ships kinetic energy past the plasma stream into electricity. If you want to get tricky a magnetic 'wiggler' in the plasma stream could be used to lase it. The forward blast from a plasma laser charged by the kinetic energy of a few hundred thousand tons of charging starship should clear anything out of your path. It certainly will show everyone the explorers have returned home. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Sr. Systems Engineer Magnavox Electronic Systems Company (Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From popserver Tue Feb 27 20:29:49 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["3862" "Tue" "27" "February" "1996" "13:34:34" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "74" "Food Mass numbers text" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Received: from most.fw.hac.com (gw1.magec.com [151.168.2.3]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id KAA27203 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 10:44:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by most.fw.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03715; Tue, 27 Feb 96 13:36:23 EST Received: from unknown(151.168.254.82) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI003622; Tue Feb 27 13:34:59 1996 Received: by most (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09982; Tue, 27 Feb 96 13:34:56 EST Received: from ss4.fw.hac.com(151.168.145.199) by most via smap (V1.5khhunt) id sma009977; Tue Feb 27 13:34:36 1996 Received: from [151.168.146.187] (kgstar) by ss4.uiv (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04081; Tue, 27 Feb 96 13:34:32 EST X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Subject: Food Mass numbers text Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 13:34:34 -0500 Heres some more text to look over. Attack at will. This is what I consider the baseline drive system for my Explorer class design. Kelly Oh, if anyone wants. I can send set of the graphics and HTML files for this and the others. Let me know. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Food Mass Numbers Normally people assume that food supplies in space will need to come from onboard farms, or some other intricate recycling system. This may be an unjustified assumption. The farms discussed in the "Space Settlements: A design study" (the book I reference frequently, and STRONGLY recommend) lists the farm mass per person at about 36 tons of which 22 tons is soil. The farm includes everything from farm animals to fish, and all normal grains and vegetables. The idea was to make it capable of providing all normal food needed for a standard North American diet for a population of 10,000. Said diet according to their numbers weighed about 1.67 tons per-person per year. They also assumed that with intensive care this farm could produce twice the yield of the best farms on earth. Now we found that rations for field troops or explorers weighed about 2.2 kilos per day (.8 tons per year) and dehydrated could be a lot less. But over all; 36 tons per person is about 21 years of food mass at their 1.67 tons per year, or 45 food years at our .8 tons per year. I'm not even going to bother with freeze dried numbers. We won't want to be out that long! Even if you assume no soil. The mass is still 14 tons per person. Which comes to 8.38 year of 1.67 tons per year food years, or 17.5 years at our ..8 tons per year. Then I realized that the farm design required doubling the internal volume of the habitation centrifuge. Which would add another 20 to 230 tons per person! (the latter if you shielded the farm centrifuge from ambient radiation.) Any way I ran it, the mass for a transportable, self sustaining farm, wound up greater than the stored food mass for the duration of our projected missions. Given that the stored mass would decline as the mission goes on (a good thing for the return flight), stored food would be simpler and more reliable than trying to maintain a running farm during a mission, and the farm would almost double the size of the full g gravitation sections needed in the ship. I decided to dump the idea and assume ultra frozen and dried foods stored in the zero g section of the ship. We could have a couple gardens for fun and fresh Veggies, but I'd assume they were just a couple plants in the corner of peoples apartments. You might do an analysis to see if hydroponics for the veggies would weigh less than storing frozen veggies. I.E. we store the meat, flour, rice, milk, ect.., but grow the fruits and vegetables. But for my porpoises I assumed the mass numbers wouldn't show an advantage. Oh, while on the topic of Mass. The drive system people seem to be going through hoops to build a huge, high efficiency (relativistic exhaust) engine to keep the necessary reaction mass amounts down to grams per day. I would suggest that if we aren't going to recycle our -- ah-- food by products. The crew will be providing a few tons of usable mass per day. Dehydrate, incinerate to plasma or ionize, and pump it into the accelerator. With an electromagnetic accelerator (as apposed to a thermal rocket) the type of mass used is unimportant, and for ship design purposes using the same stored mass to feed the crew and drive system is very elegant and efficient. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Sr. Systems Engineer Magnavox Electronic Systems Company (Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From popserver Tue Feb 27 20:29:51 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["10028" "Tue" "27" "February" "1996" "13:38:59" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "211" "Old RAIR drive system" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Received: from most.fw.hac.com (gw1.magec.com [151.168.2.3]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id KAA27531 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 10:47:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by most.fw.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04136; Tue, 27 Feb 96 13:44:15 EST Received: from unknown(151.168.254.82) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI004003; Tue Feb 27 13:42:17 1996 Received: by most (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA10213; Tue, 27 Feb 96 13:42:14 EST Received: from ss4.fw.hac.com(151.168.145.199) by most via smap (V1.5khhunt) id sma010095; Tue Feb 27 13:39:01 1996 Received: from [151.168.146.187] (kgstar) by ss4.uiv (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04679; Tue, 27 Feb 96 13:38:58 EST X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Subject: Old RAIR drive system Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 13:38:59 -0500 Heres some more text to look over. Attack at will. This was what I consider the baseline drive system for my Explorer class design. Untill I figured out it probably wouldn't work. Kelly ----------------------------------------------------------------------- multi-cycle Ram Augmented Interstellar Ramjet (RAIR) Spring 1995 A drive idea I came up with, and used as the assumed system for this ship, is A multi-cycle Ram Augmented Interstellar Ramjet (RAIR). It would scoop up reaction mass from interstellar space like a pure ram scoop, but it would only use it as reaction mass, not fuel. But the scoop system could simultaneously scoop up fuel thrown ahead of the ship by a fixed launcher back in our solar system. The system is basically an electromagnetic accelerator running through the core of the ship, powered by onboard fusion reactors. The accelerator could accelerate scooped-up interstellar matter (or ram flow), or reaction mass carried in the ship. Again, this kind of system is different from a true Bussard ramscoop drive in that the ram flow is not fused for power. Indeed, it normally isn't even slowed down. The engine functions in various ways at various speeds. Interplanetary Flight Mode (Plasma Drive) At low speed interplanetary runs, the drive works like a conventional ion rocket or mass driver. Stored reaction mass is feed into the electromagnetic or electro static accelerator core. Unlike normal thermal rockets, an ion thruster works more efficiently with heavy atom ions. So I'll assume we are storing iron for reaction mass. Specific impulse varies depending on the exhaust velocity of the expended mass. Acceleration To InterStellar Cruise For acceleration out of the Sol system the ship will deploy its ramscoop and switch to the externally fueled RAIR configuration I came up with. As mentioned above, a normal RAIR doesn't try to fuse anything it scoops up. It just ionizes it (with a laser), scoops it (interstellar gas and dust) up, and accelerates it as reaction mass in a linear accelerator. This gets around the Bussard Ramscoop problem of getting more drag trying to fuse the interstellar matter than you get back as thrust (and the fact we can't find enough in interstellar space to run it), and could put any interstellar matter to best use. But you still need a lot of fuel to power the accelerator. The idea I came up with to get around this fuel problem is to launch the fuel ahead of the ship with orbital accelerators (thus the externally fueled part of the name). The accelerators back home throw out HUGE quantities of frozen pellets of whatever fusion fuel is selected, in the path of the ship (called the acceleration track). The fuel is launched at measured and timed speeds, so that the ship will encounter a fairly steady stream of fuel during its run down the fuel loaded acceleration track. As the ship accelerates, it catches up with fuel going at increasing speeds, but always at speeds slightly slower than the ship itself. This way the ship doesn't have the drag a true ramscoop would have accelerating interstellar fuel that is going much slower than the ship is. All incoming mass is hit with a short length of electric or magnetic forward thrust once it enters the ship. The fuel, being close to the speed of the ship, will be accelerated to the ship's speed and can be transferred to temporary fuel tanks. The interstellar mass, being at a far different speed and direction than the ship, will blow past the magnetic catcher into the main thrust accelerator (powered by the soon to be burned fuel). If you can load a 1/4th light year track with enough fuel to keep the ship accelerating at 1g, the ship will (after 6 months) exit the track at half of light speed (0.5c). If a pure ramscoop can work at any speed, it should work at this speed. But assuming we can't make a pure ramscoop work (as we are) the ship can accelerate the external mass using power supplied by fuel stored on-board, or the ship can coast to the target star. Assuming Alpha Centauri, in the later case it will coast for about eight years. Deceleration and system entry Now for the bad news - you have to slow down. We can't pre-load the deceleration course track with fuel at the target star because it would be virtually impossible across interstellar distances. Carrying enough fuel / reaction-mass to decelerate at the target star would be prohibitive at any great speed. Fortunately, there may be a solution to this dilemma, from a rather unlikely source. G. E. Seger found a 1978 paper by Heppenheimer on ramjets. Heppenheimer applies radiative gas dynamics to ramjet design and eventually proves that radiative losses (via bremsstrahlung and other similar synchrotron radiation-type mechanisms) from attempting to compress the ram flow for a fusion burn would exceed the fusion energy generated by nine orders of magnitude (IE. about a billion times!). By conservation of energy laws, those energy losses have to be made up from somewhere. The only suitable source around is the starships kinetic energy. So a bad Ram Scoop drive makes a great starship brake. By reconfiguring the RAIR fields to attempt to compress and initiate a fusion burn in the ram flow, the starship instead will be generating a tremendous braking force. The resulting plasma (fused or unfused) can then be run through the main accelerator (rerigged as a generator) and used to generate electricity. Which in itself will cause further drag on the ship. Or, if we power the accelerator in reverse and force the pre-fusion plasma back down the throat of the oncoming ram flow, it will serve as a reversed plasma drive. Insystem shuttling Once in the target star system the ship once again becomes a fast Plasma or Ion drive ship. Its first target will no doubt be the outer star system and a asteroid, moon, or comet rich in fuel and reaction mass. After that it can shuttle back and forth in the star system. Though it will be crawling compared to its high speed interstellar run. Its 1g thrust capacity will allow it to rapidly reach any part of the star system. Accelerating out of the target system If we drop most of the exploration equipment and eat the consumables, the ship should be a lot lighter on the return leg. This should make it easier for it to accelerate without an externally loaded acceleration fuel track. The ship may be able to load itself with massive amounts of extra fuel, burning all the fuel, even most of the fuel that would have gone into decelerating the ship, into accelerating it. But this must be worked out in more detail. (See Internally fueled fusion rockets.) Otherwise, the crew could be forced to construct an automated fuel launcher system at the target star. This seems a clumsy and unreliable method, but I haven't thought of another. Reentry to the home starsystem The ship can not only use its ramscoop brake to slow down, it can use the Externally fueled RAIR scooping up fuel from a deceleration track at the edge of Sol, preloaded with fuel. This works like when we first left the Sol system, except that the fuel is blasting right down the throat of the ship at high speed. The fuel will be the mass that's the hardest to accelerate to the ships speed, causing very high drag, further slowing down the ship. Hopefully between the high fuel drag, ram drag, and the engines in full reverse, the Explorer class ship will reenter our home star system Sol. Decades older, probably worn out, and definitely antiquated, but loaded with data banks full of information. Ram Scoop collector and the bad news The problem with using an interstellar scoop, is their isn't much in interstellar space to scoop up. We found papers that proposed1000 km diameter scoops that only weighed 200 tons. Assuming your moving at 1/3rd the speed of light (100,000 kilometers per second) with a scoop area of 1000 km across (pi*R^2=pi(50,000,000cm)^2 = 7.854E15 cm^2). You'd be scooping up the mass in 7.854 E25 cubic centimeters of space. A big question is the composition of interstellar space. A classic assumption is that there is nothing out there but about 1 atom of hydrogen per each cubic centimeter of space. More recently, people guess it might as little as .054 atoms per cubic centimeter, or as much as 10. Even more recently than that (say the last few months) it has been proposed that there may be a lot of long-chain carbon molecules in space. Perhaps 60-200 atoms / molecules. These small, dark, heavy molecules might be the missing 90-99% of the mass of the galaxy (euphemistically called "dark matter"). So far, no one really knows. This is unfortunate, because the composition of the interstellar medium makes a hell of a difference in the design and feasibility of a Ramscoop or RAIR-based starship. If we assume one hydrogen atom per cubic centimeter (at a proton mass of 1.673 E-27 Kg), and assume we're running at 1/3rd light speed (0.333c). Our 1000 km in diameter scoop, would scoop up a ram flow of 131.4 grams per second. That's about 345 tons a month. That doesn't sound to bad unless you realize how much fuel our ship would need, and remember that the scoop weighs 200 tons (and you really want the mass at slower speeds). Given the amount of time the scoop could be used it couldn't scoop up enough to be very helpful. So this stardrive would go into the impractical bin. If on the other hand, you assume that each cubic centimeter had a hundred atom carbon molecule in it, the same scoop would give us over a thousand times as much mass to work with. Making a RAIR drive powered from stored fuel far more attractive. But since we don't know. Its hard to recommend this drive. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Starks Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Sr. Systems Engineer Magnavox Electronic Systems Company (Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From popserver Tue Feb 27 20:30:19 GMT 1996 X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil] ["11264" "Tue" "27" "February" "1996" "14:20:09" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "254" "Habitation Deck" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil] nil) Return-Path: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Received: from most.fw.hac.com (gw1.magec.com [151.168.2.3]) by caritas.efn.org (8.7.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id LAA01722 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 11:26:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by most.fw.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06443; Tue, 27 Feb 96 14:23:12 EST Received: from unknown(151.168.254.82) by gw1 via smap (V1.3mjr) id smI006340; Tue Feb 27 14:21:07 1996 Received: by most (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11061; Tue, 27 Feb 96 14:21:02 EST Received: from ss4.fw.hac.com(151.168.145.199) by most via smap (V1.5khhunt) id sma011046; Tue Feb 27 14:20:11 1996 Received: from [151.168.146.187] (kgstar) by ss4.uiv (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA10514; Tue, 27 Feb 96 14:20:06 EST X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Subject: Habitation Deck Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 14:20:09 -0500 Heres some more text about the crew quarters centrafuge to look over. We probably fought out all the details months ago, but attack at will. Kelly ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Crew Quarters One large limitation in the starships design, is the habitation deck. The Space Settlements design study published by NASA (reference 1), pages 22 &;42 states that most people can adapt to rotation rates of up to 3 rpm, but that this adaptation might not be possible if personnel routinely move between the rotating 1 G. sections and the non-rotating zero-G sections of a space settlement or ship. The design study strongly recommended a rotation rate of less than 1 rpm. But that would require a habitat over 1600 meters across. A 3 rpm limit still requires a habitat 200 meters across, but this at least seems plausible for a large exploration platform. A 4 rpm rate would allow a 110 meter across habitat, but for purposes of this design I'll assume a 3 rpm rate. Putting this 200 meter in diameter ring in the ship, immediately means a very large ship. Since the ship's required speed will force it to accelerate and decelerate at high rates for months, the habitation decks will need to adapt to everything from zero G, to one G forward or backward. To do this, I'm assuming the habitation ring is made of straight tubes (gold tubes in Hab. Deck image), attached between struts radiating outward from a support centrifuge (blue green structure in image), which rides on the inner edge of a support structure (clear in image) that attaches directly to the inside of the ships outer hull. Each of the hab. tubes can be rotated around their long axis to turn the floor toward the direction of the currently active 'down'. (Rooms in the support centrifuge will need to be constructed so the outer, front, and back walls can be walked on.) For example: If the ship is accelerating (or decelerating) at nearly one gee, the centrifuges rotation can be stopped and the segments turned so their floors points toward the rear (or front) of the ship. If the ship is coasting, the floors will be turned to point outward and the habitat rotated at full speed. If the ship is accelerating or decelerating at less than one gee, the floors will be partially rotated, and the hab ring spun at partial speed. The Hab. Deck centrifuges are effectively independent space stations 660 feet across riding inside the Explorer class starships depresurized outer hull. The only direct connection between the hab deck and the ship are the tracks the centrifuge rides in and the electrical and data links. Each hab cylinder has its own life support and food storage in the centrifuge segment closest to it. Transit of food and material between the centrifuge and the rest of the ship is via pressurized shuttle cars riding on tracks inside the main centrifuge. This separation maximizes redundancy and isolation of the various areas. Each hab cylinder can be sealed off from the rest in case of fire or contamination. Even if all of the habitation centrifuge was to become contaminated, the pressurized areas of the rest of the ship would still have there own life support. Note that I have not considered spinning the habitat section of the ship on a tether, or spinning multiple ships tethered to one another. I'm not sure how well a tether (or the hab module) could handle years of unprotected exposure to relativistic plasma impacts, and spinning part of one ship (or two linked ships) could preclude magnetic shielding. Also, this method would not be practical while the ships were accelerating or decelerating, and it would make both shielding the hab module and allowing service access to the rest of the ship harder. Finally, this would greatly complicate the rest of the ship, the vast bulk of which should not be spun for gravity (or any other reason). Also consideration should be given to counter rotating habitat rings, or other counter rotating masses to compensate for torque on the ship. Otherwise the ship will need to use its attitude jets to compensate when it spins and de-spins the centrifuge. The Space Settlements design study , pages 26 and 32, list various breakdowns for crew living space requirements. Per person, these are: Requirement,Space (m^2) Residence,49.0 Shops/office,3.0 Hospitals,0.3 Parks/open space,10.0 Transportation,12.0 (tram / halls), **Subtotal,74.3 , Water/waste recycling,4.0 Service industry,4.0 Personal storage,5.0 other,3.0 Farm,60.0 **Subtotal,76.0 , **Total,150.3 m^2 These numbers were originally developed for space colonies and may be excessive for a starship, but given that the crew will spend almost all of their professional lives aboard the ship, it's probably best to err towards a more spacious design. Assuming each habitation ring is made of 12, 50 meter segments 10 meters in diameter with 3 m ceilings (more in the central halls and open areas) gives about 16,000 square meters of floor space (about 70 m^2 for up to 224 crew). If the hab ring is instead made up of 12 50 meter segments 20 meters in diameter with 3 m ceilings, you get about 63,000 square meters of floor space (about 70 m^2 for a crew of up to 898). These figures assume farm and/or personal and food storage are outside the full gravity section of the habitat. Of course, we might not need to do much (if any) farming, depending on the mass assumptions. The drawing above gives 792 people more open area then the above calculations would suggest. Which is probably necessary given how long the voyage is. People are housed two to an apartment/office. With a few single person apartments that can be converted to conference and lab areas. This should be a functional arrangement both for the trip, and for the exploration phase. While not as glamorous. Most people involved in space exploration do support and analysis functions. Only a fraction of the crew will ever leave the ship, and most of the science will be done back on the ship pouring over the data recordings. Thus the need for some office space and a lot of networked personal computers. Given the performance increases in computers. These personal computers should have hundreds of times the power and capacity of a human brain. (Makes you wonder what the software will be like? Or the ships mainframe!) Crew Quarters Radiation Shielding Normal radiation shielding is defined as mass per surface area of the area being shielded. The Space Settlements design study, page 125, lists that for protection of an inhabited volume outside the earths magnetic fields, the surface of the habitat must be covered by about .44 kilos per cm^2 -- 4.4 tons per square meter. This is roughly equivalent to an eight foot thick concrete wall. For 12, 50 meter long, 10 and 20 meter diameter segments wrapped in shielding mass, you get: 
(Surface area of cylinder      = Circumference of cylinder *
Length
of cylinder. Circumference of circle      =  pi * diameter)

                   Surface area               Shield mass
     PI * 10m * 600m = 18,849m^2     4.4 tons/m^2 =  82,939 tons
     PI * 20m * 600m = 37,698m^2     4.4 tons/m^2 = 165,876 tons


If instead you try to wrap the hab ring rotation area with fixed shielding,
you get a lot less torque on the ship. Unfortunately, you also have a
greater area to cover.

Say a shielding a 10m length of the outside of the hull cylinder with
shield 'bulkhead' walls extending 25 meters in from the surface of the
hull. (The 50 x 10 meter tubes would come in 14 meters from the hull edge
in the middle of their span.) (100m -[cos(15deg)*100m] = 3.4m of gap
between the floor and the outer hull at the center of the hab. tubes. Plus
the diameter of the tube.).



(Surface area of cylinder = Circumference of cylinder * Length of
cylinder.
Circumference of circle      =  pi * diameter, 10 meter length)

          = pi*200m
          = 628.3 meters

     Multiply by 10 meters length and you get a surface area of
     6283 square meters.
     Multiply by 4.4 tons per M^2 of surface,

          = 27,646 tons of shielding mass.


For each of the washer shaped shield bulkheads.


(Area of circle      = pi*r^2)
          = pi*(outer_radius^2 - inner  radius^2)
          = pi*(100m^2 - 86m^2) =pi*2604=8.180m^2 of surface,
          = 35,995 tons of shielding mass.

Forward bulkhead,35,995 tons
Rear bulkhead,35,995 tons
Outer circumference,27,646 tons
Total,72,017 tons of shielding mass.




72,017 tons would sink an aircraft carrier, but it is a little less than
just shielding the 10 meter hab-segments. On the other hand if you assume
20 meter diameter segments the shielding only goes up to 176,242 tons. Only
slightly heavier than just wrapping the 20 meter tubes. Also note that if
you use a u-shaped fixed shield (as shown in the graphics image) you could
save quite a bit of mass. Multiple centrifuges sharing the same u shaped
shield could save over a third of the shielding mass of independent
shields.

Hoping I got something wrong, I checked these numbers against the Stanford
torus space colony design. (10,000 person, 69,000,000m^3 of volume
[8,000,000m^3 of personal space]) That torus was had a ring 135 meter in
diameter, and full torus diameter of 1800 meters.


Mass numbers:
       210,000.  tons of structure,
       530,000.  tons of internal mass
          (242,000.  tons moist soil,
           260,000.  tons buildings, trams, cloths etc,
            20,000.  tons water).
     9,900,000.  tons of shielding mass total.


Scale the monster down to our hab ring and my numbers seem to be in the
right mass range. For a space colony, shielding mass is just a launch cost.
For a ship of course, its extra weight that has to be moved. Also note that
I only fully shielded the habitation zone. The rest of the ship, the areas
the crew may need to work in, is not. Also note that this shielding is only
enough to keep the crew safe from the radiation loads a flaring star would
put on them. If you want to shield against radiation from particals the
ship slams into (a very good idea at high speeds) you probably should put
the crewed areas of the ship behind the fuel tanks.

On the good news side. We were considering a Ram Augmented drive ship. The
magnetic fields needed to do that can also shield the ship. Also for the
vast bulk of the mission time we can wrap the hab ring with reaction mass
or fuel tanks. If we save these tanks for last, or as emergency reserve
tanks, the crew can be shielded by mass we need to take along anyway. Water
for example weighs about 62 lbs per cubic foot and makes a good reaction
mass for the auxiliary thrusters, or to spike the main drive. We would
probably want to carry along a lot of water and ammonia (H2O &;NH3), so we
could break them down to provide oxygen and nitrogen to replenish lost
atmosphere. Lets face it, this thing will leak. (Everything does
eventually.)




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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	["901" "Tue" "27" "February" "1996" "17:09:39" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "21" "Nuclear Liquid Salt Reactor" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil]
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From: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
CC: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: Nuclear Liquid Salt Reactor
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:09:39 -0500

I don't remember if this has ever been discussed here, but
I just saw this on sci.space.tech:

-David

===========================================================
>
>BTW I've just seen an old Zubrin proposal for a Nuclear
>Liquid Salt Reactor. You take moderately enriched fuel
>in several tubes to a larger tube where the uranium goes
>critical and passes out the back through a nozzle. With
>a careful adjustment of the fuel flow there is a constant
>region of criticality. Low radiation on the vessel because
>all the gunk is in the fuel. He proposed it for LEO use. I
>liked it myself. Anyone seen a serious proposal for its use?

No, but I can think of a few. Such a vehicle would
be able to sustain multi-G accelerations for days!
Plus, the exhaust has a v(esc) higher than solar
escape v, so it's perfectly safe. Just don't tailgate!
===========================================================

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 , KellySt@aol.com,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: Re: Nuclear Liquid Salt Reactor
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 08:12:58 -0500

This is a weird one.  I'm sure I never heard of it before.  Sounds like the
exaust would be a mess, and you'ld have a lot of radiation and nutron
bombardment on the ship when the engines runing. Wonder whats the specific
impulse?

Kelly


At 5:09 PM 2/27/96, David Levine wrote:
>I don't remember if this has ever been discussed here, but
>I just saw this on sci.space.tech:
>
>-David
>
>===========================================================
>>
>>BTW I've just seen an old Zubrin proposal for a Nuclear
>>Liquid Salt Reactor. You take moderately enriched fuel
>>in several tubes to a larger tube where the uranium goes
>>critical and passes out the back through a nozzle. With
>>a careful adjustment of the fuel flow there is a constant
>>region of criticality. Low radiation on the vessel because
>>all the gunk is in the fuel. He proposed it for LEO use. I
>>liked it myself. Anyone seen a serious proposal for its use?
>
>No, but I can think of a few. Such a vehicle would
>be able to sustain multi-G accelerations for days!
>Plus, the exhaust has a v(esc) higher than solar
>escape v, so it's perfectly safe. Just don't tailgate!
>===========================================================


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: Mission type
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 09:45:02 -0500

Mission Flight Type


This is a summary of the various types of flights we might use to send a
mission to another star (Round trip, pick-up and return by follow on
flight, construction of return equipment at target star, Multi-star,
Multi-generation, hibernation, and one way).  It breifly describes each
flight type and its advantages and disadvantages.



Round trip

Ship and crew return to Earth at mission end.

Advantages

*Simplest option, and one with little likely hood of public objection.

*More likely to get more volunteers and better qualified volunteers for flight.

*This option implies that the mission is fairly short. I.E. within the
professional life of the crew. This would imply its short enough to return
information in a useful amount of time. (I.E. it would get there and back,
before a later faster flight could do it.)

*It would return far more information than an interstellar communications
link could manage.

*It obviously avoids the grisly public relations and crew morale problems
of a one way mission.

Disadvantages

*Technically more challenging. Getting a ship to the target starsystem is
hard enough. Getting it back would make it harder. But this must be traded
off against the added complexity of a ship capable of supporting its crew
for the rest of their lives.

*It has to be a fast enough ship to get back in an acceptable amount of
time. Too slow and theirs no practical reason to send it.




Pick up and return by follow on flight

Advantages

*Most of the advantages of the round trip model, and would allow the first
ship to be a mobile research station or other specialized ship, with faster
courier ships providing round trip flights.


Disadvantages

*High risk and more complicated. Multiple ship types, and concerns that the
first ship might be left stranded. The multiple ship types (the first being
a big heavy slow boat, the latter faster smaller ships) is probably
manageable and might even have advantages. The problem of assured crew
return would have to be handled conclusively.



Crew constructs equipment for return flight

This option come up with light/microwave sail craft, beamed power craft,
and fuel launcher craft. The crew would construct automated duplicates of
the systems that launched the ship from Sol space.

Advantages

*Would establish launcher facilities in both star systems. Which could
allowing faster two way flights with specialized fast light ships.

*The crew might get back faster with their ship using the constructed
launcher systems for assistance.

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: Future tech
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 09:45:51 -0500

Future tech


The engineering and science we have now, and assumed we will have in 2050,
will change.  Fusion, fission, relativity, quantum mechanics, and a host of
other fundamentals of current physics; were all discovered within the last
hundred years.  We can conservatively expect physics to change far more in
the next hundred years, then it did in the last hundred.  What technologies
we will have on hand in a century or two are impossible to guess.  We could
have matter conversion, hyperlight drives, new understandings of inertia
and kinetic energy, nanotech, hyper intelligent A.I.s, or all those and far
more.  Any of these would dramatically effect our ability to travel between
the stars.  So even though we can't come up with any practical ideas for
exploring the stars now, we can be sure our descendants will find it far
easier than we imagine.

The reason we in the L.I.T.  group assumed few new technologies, is that we
could quickly wind up in a science fiction argument as apposed to a
starship design project.  Not only don't we know which revolutionary
technologies will developed by 2050 (50 years ago, would you have believed
the incredible stuff we have now?), but assuming any major advance changes
everything else in the project.

For example: a couple of technologies frequently talked about are:
Nanotech, self replicating machines, and Artificial intelligences with
human or greater levels of intelligence.  These obviously are related
fields, but the effects they'd have on the rest of the mission are
dramatic.

Nanotech
Nanotech is a set of technologies currently under research that would build
machines the size of complex integrated molecules.  In theory; such
machines working together, could tear a mountain full of ore down, atom by
atom, and reassemble it into manufactured products.  They could do this so
quickly the mountain would flow into its new forms like it melted.  Virus
sized robots could cruise through our cells and repair anything from
radiation induced mutations to any form of disease or injury.  They may
allow virtual immortality and eternal youth.  And their promoters expect
them to be commonly available by 2050.

This could allow the ship to become fully self repairing down to the
molecular level.  A semi living machine that could continue indefinitely
without any concern for wear and tear.  Populated by near immortal,
superhuman, crews.  Able to manufacture almost anything, to any scale, with
little if any human assistance.  Need a massive infrastructure in the
target star system? Drop a set of these and they will transmute a continent
to build it for you.

Obviously this starts to eliminate almost any normal physical limits of the
ship and crew.  The side effects on human society are incalculable.  Would
such super humans: be to preoccupied to explore the stars? To powerful and
impatient to take a long slow flight, or so long lived that adding a few
decades to the trip would mean nothing to them.


Self replicating machines
Say you can't build molecular sized machines, but you can build small
adaptable robots that can make copies of themselves.  They can still
revolutionize automation.  Can still be dropped on a world and told to
restructure a continent to serve our purposes, or mine anything we need in
whatever amount.  That would be very valuable if you need to large scale
mining or infrastructure construction to get home, or do extensive
exploration of all parts of all the worlds.

Note that this doesn't assume the machines are intelligent or completely
autonomous.  After all Bees can build pretty complex structures by
following a few rules.  Perhaps self replicating computers can do as well.
On the other hand we've never come close to making a factory that could run
unattended for very long, much less fix or rebuild itself.  Some studies by
NASA show that such things might not be possible without humans to keep
everything running.  But things might be a lot different in half a century.


Artificial intelligences with human or greater levels intelligence.
We already build and sell super computers with more power and data capacity
then a human brain.  In 20 years that should be the capacity of a good home
computer.  What we can't do is figure out how to teach these brains to
think.  Will we be able do that by 2050? Will our ship be totally
automated? Assembled by robots, and capable of doing all the exploration
itself? Will it be filled with a crew of robots, or a mixture of robots and
humans?


Decisions decisions.
Unless we said otherwise we assumed none of these technologies is in use on
this project.  The implications just get to bizarre.  Any of the
technologies listed above would turn all of Earth culture inside out.  Or
any of the dozens of other similar technologies We didn't discus, or think
of.  After a lot of arguing we decided to assume that no fantastic
discoveries are made in science and technology in the next 50 years.  Which
we all agree, is the least likely assumption we could possibly make.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: Mission purpose
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 09:50:43 -0500


Mission purpose


Why do we want to go to another star anyway? We obviously have to want to
do it pretty badly, or we would never pay for all this. Presumably this
isn't some kind of cold war stunt. We certainly aren't likely to get any
immediate financial benefit. We absolutely don't have any problems back
home (hunger, famine, mineral depletion, etc..) that this could help. So
what do we want out of the flight?


Exploration of the planets and moons in another star system

Advantages

*Very popular idea with public.

*Possibility of tremendous scientific returns.


Disadvantages

*Expensive. You'd need a huge ship to carry all of the hundreds of
researchers, surveyors, and all the support staff and advanced equipment it
would take to do even a minimal job of surveying a new star system.

*A planet with a Earth-like ecology it would be a biological death trap.
Alien microbes, allergens, and other unknowns life forms would easily
defeat unprepared Earth mammalian immune systems. The ground teams would be
in an area that would be worse, to them, than biological war back on Earth.

*On a planet with a non-Earth-like ecology it still could be a biological
death trap, and in addition have basic climate and biosphere
incompatibilities (Wrong temperatures, air pressures, gravity).

*This is a massive undertaking. You'd only try it if you really wanted to
explore. This would require a major national (or international?)
commitment.




Colonization of planets or moons

Advantages

*Very popular idea with public.

*Excellent staging area for direct examination of that planet or moon.


Disadvantages

*Expensive. Either the colony would need to be the size of a major city to
support all of the specialists needed to support a self sustaining society,
or regular (extremely expensive) supply flights from earth would be
necessary.

*On a planet with a Earth-like ecology it would be a biological death trap.
Alien microbes, allergens, and other unknowns life forms would easily
defeat unprepared Earth mammalian immune systems.

*On a planet with a non-Earth-like ecology it still could be a biological
death trap, and in addition have basic climate and biosphere
incompatibilities (Wrong temperatures, air pressures, gravity).

*Isolation from resources. Ores, energy and raw materials are far harder to
access on a planet than in space.

*Isolation from other planets.

*Their doesn't seem to be enough practical justification for such a massive
undertaking. Again, it would require a major commitment or resources. Which
means a major public interest.



Colonization of constructed space platforms

Advantages

*Still may be a very popular idea with public.

*Excellent staging area for examination of the solar system.

*Much lower biological threat than on a planet with biosphere.

*The internal gravity, radiation, and environment can be precisely tailored
to humans.

*Far easier to construct and service than a planet bound colony.

*Easy access to plentiful resources. (Space is considered so much richer in
cheap, easy to access resources and power. That it is expected that Earth's
heavy industry will migrate into space in the next century.)

*Could act as a servicing center and supply port for the starship, or
subsequent starships.


Disadvantages

*Expensive. Either the colony would need to be the size of a major city to
support all of the specialists needed to support a self sustaining society,
or regular (extremely expensive) supply flights from earth would be
necessary.

*Their doesn't seem to be enough practical justification for such a massive
undertaking. Again, it would require a major commitment or resources. Which
means a major public interest.




Infrastructure construction

Advantages

*This could establish facilities necessary for routine, lower cost, flights
between home and this starsystem.

Disadvantages

*Construction could take so many resources that little or no exploration
will be done.

*Less interesting to public than an exploration or colony program. So it
might have a harder time getting funded. But it could be part of a first
flight the opens up the star system for larger follow on flights.

*Could be very expensive.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: fnrg: 'COLD FUSION' BREAKTHROUGH
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:23:22 +0100

Hello,

I'm listening in on the free energy newsgroup since a few days, today I got
the attached message. I'm really wondering if it works that good.

Timothy



This file is taken from the Institute for New Energy Web Site at:
     www.padrak.com/ine/

If you are at all interested:  See the new (2/25/96) Subject Index at:
     www.padrak.com/ine/SUBJECTS.html

'COLD FUSION' BREAKTHROUGH

Have 15,000 Energy Pros in Anaheim Seen the Light of a New Era?

From:  Atlantis Rising, Number 6, 1996, pp 37 and 56

By:    Jeane Manning

Copyright Atlantis Rising.

Did a clean energy era just slip into our lives, unnoticed by mainstream
news cameras?  Its arrival may coincide with the recent success of an
unpretentious "cold fusion" device, reported to put out a thousand times
more energy than it takes to run it, at the world's largest trade show for
electric power producers.

(Cold fusion is the popular term for what the Japanese more accurately call
New Hydrogen Energy Technology.  See David Lewis' introduction to cold
fusion in Atlantis Rising # 2.  In 1989 Drs. Martin Fleischmann and Stanley
Pons were first to claim to have produced nuclear reactions by putting
palladium rods in water cells and getting excess energy out.  They are now
in a million-dollar laboratory in France, funded by Japanese money.)

Clean Energy Technologies Inc. (CETI) of Texas is a small company that
doesn't hesitate to walk among giants of the fossil fuel and nuclear
industries. CETI booked a booth at the Power-Gen '95 Americas conference in
Anaheim, California, and demonstrated their breakthrough nonpolluting
energy device, invented by James Patterson, Ph.D.  Earlier, at fusion
conferences, they proved that the Patterson "cold fusion" cell, the size of
your thumb, outperforms fusion reactors the size of factories by putting
out eighty times more energy, in the form of heat, than the electricity
that runs it.  While the Tokomaks of the megabucks world-huge donut-shaped
structures pervaded by high-intensity magnetic fields-attempt fusion of
atoms and are rewarded with brief bursts of less power-out-than-in
accompanied by dangerous radiation, CETI's and other room-temperature "cold
fusion" experiments quietly and cleanly put out more power than it takes to
run them and they keep this up for weeks at a time.

[Large picture of two men holding a small device about the size of a tennis
ball]

"Dr. James Patterson and CETI's Jim Reding are ready to take on the energy
establishment./ Photo from "Infinite Energy" [Magazine]."

Meanwhile, as if in a parallel but outdated universe, a physics professor
at the University of British Columbia sputters when I ask about cold
fusion.  "There is no such thing!  That has been proven to be just bad
science!"

In the Anaheim conference, where more than 15,000 engineers and other
visitors showed up from 75 countries, foot traffic was heavy at the CETI
booth.  The company's most impressive demonstrations, however, took place
in their hotel room for select groups.  Scientists who witnessed or knew
firsthand witnesses of various tests of the device at the power-generating
meeting gave me varying reports on CETI's demonstrations.  The most
conservative report was "sixteen to one" (more output than input), and
other witnesses said "one thousand times more power out than went in."

No matter which numbers we look

Continued on Page 56

COLD FUSION, Continued from Page 37

at, the fact remains that a four-inch long (by one-inch in diameter) tube
of metal-coated beads and ordinary water, put out a kilowatt (a thousand
watts) of power in equivalent heat with only about one watt of electricity
going in.  Water flowed through it and out into coils of plastic tubing
while an electric fan blew the room's air past the coils.

"My colleague was there and could feel the hot air coming out,' says Eugene
Mallove, Ph.D., editor of "Infinite Energy Magazine."

Why didn't the company make a bigger splash by keeping the device running
day and night on the floor of the convention center?  Mallove says he
believes CETI came to the conference to nail down a contract with a
multi-billion-annual-sales corporation, so the hotel room was the site of
high-level negotiations. "They went there to give further encouragement to
this very large, Fortune 500 company or maybe even Fortune 100 company in
the United States."  Mallove said in December that the corporation either
has already, or probably will shortly, make a deal with Clean Energy
Technologies to license the technology for manufacturing and production of
these reactors.  Who is the mysterious giant?  "It is not an energy company
per se. It is a very high-tech, instantly recognizable corporation."

Mallove is expected to reveal more in the next issue of "Infinite Energy",
promising details on the testing of the CETI cell at the PowerGen 95
convention.

Mallove reports that CETI representatives ran their tiny cell for five
hours with only about 1.4 watts going in but 1,344 watts were coming out.
It was able to heat a room;  in fact, the CETI crew had to call the hotel
desk and have room service increase the air conditioning for the room.

"They reduced the output power at one point to about 470 watts, for safety
reasons, but the input power at that point was .1 watt (one-tenth of a
watt).  So the ratio at that point was 4700 to one.  We're talking about
some gigantic ratios-for all practical purposes, no input power, and it
will be shown ultimately, of course, that input power if needed at all can
be generated easily thermoelectrically and just fed back.  So the whole
thing, for all practical purposes, is a self-sustaining unit to heat
anything you want!

This working prototype of a "cold fusion" heating unit shows more
performance than glitz.  "Frankly, the whole apparatus looks like a science
fair project," Mallove told me.  "Of course, most of the important
inventions in history looked like that in their prototypes.  And it wasn't
designed to be a commercial heating unit; it was a demonstration unit."

It may not look like much, but if someone made multiples of the unit and
put it in your basement, Mallove says, they could heat the whole house
for a fraction of the cost of an electric light bulb.  "In theory, if I
wanted to have something like that and CETI was willing to sell units to
me, they could heat this house in New Hampshire even in the bitter cold."

[Picture of the inside of a large donut-shaped metal hot fusion device.]

"Princeton's Hot Fusion project.  Dinosaur?"

Is it reliable?  "This is not the old days of cold fusion where you do some
finicky experiment and hope and pray that it works," replies Mallove.  "It
works every time."

The CETI process starts very rapidly.  "First, you apply a heater to it,
equivalent to an automobile electric starter.  You have to get it to proper
temperature first. Then you remove the heater ... and the thing just goes."

But can it replace internal combustion engines?  Mallove is optimistic.
"Since there is no known upper limit to the pressure under which it can
operate, there is every indication that fairly quickly, people will develop
this for steam production.  And I fully expect that in 1996 a vehicle will
be powered by this process."

Mallove is of course not predicting it will be in the stores next year, but
we do know researchers who want to be first to put a new-energy device into
a small vehicle and drive across the country.

CETI is more interested in getting into production than getting into
newspapers.  The company is not returning phone calls from journalists;  it
is bombarded by would-be purchasers. Their marketing strategy is to sell
distributors' licenses to a relatively small set of serious groups and
businesses.

Paralleling the dramatic improvements in "cold fusion" are advances in
magnetic motor technologies.  Mallove says he strongly suspects they are
closely related.  I've interviewed additional scientists who speculate that
"cold fusion" processes, and magnets, tap into a free energy universally
present in the space around us.

For example, even though as a mainstream engineer/physicist he shuns the
word overunity (meaning he is not publicly claiming
more-power-output-than-input), Yasunori Takahashi from Japan is stirring up
the new-energy scene with his magnetic motor.  He claims to have the
world's most powerful permanent magnets and is looking for business
partners in the U.S. and England to produce the motor.  New-energy
researcher Christopher Tinsley rode a motor scooter powered by Takahashi's
"Self-Generating Motor" throughout London for about a half hour and reports
that the motor remained cool, which is highly unusual for a motor.
Although it does need four 12-volt batteries to spin the motor up to speed
for startup, a professor from London University said the motor seems to go
500 miles without fuel.  New Energy News, monthly publication of the
Institute for New Energy based in Salt Lake City, reports that Takahashi
also invented an extremely powerful small capacitor (energy storage unit)
and a Battery Doubler which promises to extend the running time of laptop
computers, cellular phones and camcorders.

These are among many promising new-energy technologies emerging around the
world.

Mallove sees the irony in the recent scene at Anaheim Convention Center.
There were a thousand exhibitor booths, all sorts of megaproject
technologies from oil, coal, gas and nuclear fission - "all this stuff
that's going to die completely, with this one (CETI) booth being the most
important booth at the entire meeting. But you know the story.  The
dinosaurs did not realize their demise."


Jeane Manning is co-author of several books including "Angels Don't Play
This HAARP" (distributed by Book People).  Her first solo book, "The Coming
Energy Revolution" will be out in spring, 1996, from Avery Publishing
Group.

For anyone who wants to learn about the emerging scene, the International
Association for New Science is planning a conference on new energy
technologies for April 25-28, 1996 in Denver.  The IANS office is in Fort
Collins, Colorado, phone (970) 482-3731.




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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: Misc.
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:23:45 +0100

To Kelly,

Most of your letters sounded familiar, only two things I want to say:

Draft text Externally fueled Fusion drive
===========================================================================
>Because of the deceleration fuel limitation, it is unlikely that the ship
>can get to more than a quarter or a third of the speed of light.  But
>that's still a 100,000 kilometers per second.  The ship will need to
>protect itself against impacts.  One of the simplest ideas is to push
>several miles of charged dust ahead of the ship.  Ramming a cloud of
>charged iron dust at a 360,000,000 kilometers per hours will turn most
>anything into ionized plasma.  Which can be shoved ahead of the ship, or
>off to the sides, by the charges dust cloud handler.  Effectively most
>anything you run into at speed will become more shielding dust.

How do you shove a few kilometres of clouds? Especially during acceleration
and deceleration a lot of cloud-rebuilding will be needed.


Habitation deck
===========================================================================
>One large limitation in the starships design, is the habitation deck. The
>Space Settlements design study published by NASA (reference 1), pages 22
>&;42 states that most people can adapt to rotation rates of up to 3 rpm,
>but that this adaptation might not be possible if personnel routinely move
>between the rotating 1 G. sections and the non-rotating zero-G sections of
>a space settlement or ship. The design study strongly recommended a
>rotation rate of less than 1 rpm. But that would require a habitat over
>1600 meters across. A 3 rpm limit still requires a habitat 200 meters
>across, but this at least seems plausible for a large exploration platform.
>A 4 rpm rate would allow a 110 meter across habitat, but for purposes of
>this design I'll assume a 3 rpm rate. Putting this 200 meter in diameter
>ring in the ship, immediately means a very large ship.

One may not need a complete ring. Just a habitation "cube" at the two ends
of a long "bar". Then just turn this bar around, thus the ends making a
common circle. It is in fact just a the torus mentioned above only with a
lot of segments left out.


Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: Re: My Two Bits Ain't Worth 1E-15 (Take 2)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:26:51 +0100

Hi Brian,

I first like to say something to you, I'm having troubles reading your
messages, I am not sure if it is because English is not my native language
or that it is your writing. Anyway I have the feeling that sometimes you
jump too fast to an idea (you warned us about that in one of your first
letters, I think). So before I can understand what you are talking about,
I've need to read a certain part several times. I'm not sure if others have
a similar problem, but would it be possible to write some things more clear?

>Okay, I just realized something about my two bits worth.  They ain't worth 
>squat.  I ran the numbers for 11GW/ton/s on my portable RPB decelerator idea 
>and came back to the same problem that Kelly has with his Explorer design. 
> We need too stinkin much power.
>
> Assuming 11GW/ton/s to accelerate a measly .036 g and using a De + 3He 
>reaction that yields 3.606E14 Watts/kg and applying that over the time it 
>takes to accelerate to 1/3c at .036 g the numbers got supremely ugly in 
>terms of fusion fuel weight.

Besides the amount of fuel needed, the time needed is too much too. I
calculated that it takes 9 years to reach 1/3c at 0.036 g. In that time we
will have travelled 1.5 ly. And then we still will need to decelerate.

>Back to the drawing board.
>
>Perhaps the launcher idea could still work with the Explorer design.   What 
>we have to do turn the Asimov into its own fuel launcher.  Have the ship 
>rail gun launch most to all of the ship's reaction mass behind it.  The 
>particles will have to be at least fast enough to cover  a .25 ly track in 
>the time it takes to cruise to Tau Ceti.

Why would you first shoot the RM out of the back, to catch it again later?
(after decelerating a bit)

>I wonder: If we could keep the track together over that amount of time and 
>distance, would it be easier to launch the track from Earth?  Would the 
>stablizing system that Kevin told us about help?  I noticed this discussion 
>but I don't know if it answers my question:

< A disscusion left out >

>So is the answer yes or no.

I think we more or less agreed that particle beams are possible but only for
not too large distances (less than 1 ly).

>As the Asimov begins its deceleration phase, the relatively faster moving 
>reaction mass track slams back into the ship.  We ionize the RM and run it 
>through the accelerator for thrust just as if it were interstellar medium. 
> A downside to this idea is the drag caused by hitting the really fast 
>particles at the end of the deceleration run.   Also there are going to be 
>serious power cost to launch the track.

I think this drag will cause more problems then it solves. The extra energy
needed to overcome the drag could just as well be used to take some extra RM
with the Asimov.

>Since we'll have to carry so much reaction mass for the launch track, I 
>suggest we use the E18W we have planned to mag-sail launch the ship.   So I 
>guess we launch the track via the ion accelerator using it as a rail gun if 
>that is possible.

This part is an example of the kind of thing where I don't get what you want
to say even after reading it several times.


Timothy

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
        jim , KellySt ,
         rddesign , stevev ,
        zkulpa 
Subject: Re: My Two Bits Ain't Worth 1E-15 (Take 2)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 17:00:00 PST



 ----------
From: T.L.G.vanderLinden
To: Brian Mansur
Subject: Re: My Two Bits Ain't Worth 1E-15 (Take 2)
Date: Wednesday, February 28, 1996 9:23PM

Hi Brian,

>I first like to say something to you, I'm having troubles reading your
>messages, I am not sure if it is because English is not my native language
>or that it is your writing. Anyway I have the feeling that sometimes you
>jump too fast to an idea (you warned us about that in one of your first
>letters, I think). So before I can understand what you are talking about,
>I've need to read a certain part several times. I'm not sure if others have
>a similar problem, but would it be possible to write some things more 
clear?

Sorry.  Most of the time that I am writing my e-mail's I have serious time 
pressure to study for a test or go do homework.  I often don't have time to 
proofread to see if I make sense.  Of course I could just sit on them a day 
or to, then go back and see if I make sense to myself.

On the e-mail you discussed, I don't think you received an e-mail previous 
to it.  That may be a fault with our school computer mailing server or 
somehow even my own fault.  Don't worry, it was a bad idea that I was 
sending and thats why I wrote the e-mail that you got.  It might have 
answered your question as to why we would first shoot the RM out of the back 
of Asimov only to catch it again.

The whole idea was to find a way to cut down on the weight of the ship as it 
tries to decelerate near TC.  My first idea to solve this problem from a 
while back was tankers.  That divided the maximum mass of the ship for the 
deceleration phase by however many tankers were used.  By spreading out the 
fuel along a track, we are left with only the dry ship mass to slow down 
(plus fuel to power the ion accelerator and ionizing lasers for the incoming 
RM).

The seemingly lost e-mail talked about launching a superheavy starship ahead 
of the Asimov.  It could either carry many, many tons of RM and a rail 
launcher to lay the deceleration track or it could hold particle beams (or 
masers) to hit a sail that would slow the Asimov.

Jumping to a tangent, I wonder if this idea could help solve some problems 
of decelerating Kevin's MARS.  I noticed that his design is launched by 
using a beam that hits a sail.  The trouble seemed to be how to reverse the 
beam's direction to in order slow the ship.

The solution we've dissused to date is to harnessing that previously 
reflected power to run an ion accelerator that speeds its RM up to such a 
high velocity that very little RM is needed to stop the ship (compared to 
fusion powered ion rocket that can only carry so much power in fusion fuel). 


Now about reversing the direction of the maser energy without having 
complicating the design.  I wonder if we would be able to build and launch a 
massive maser starship that simply harnesses the maser energy from Sol and 
redirects it to the side of the Asimov facing TC.

Why would we want to do this since such a design would lose A LOT of power 
in the redirection process, not to mension the fact that launching 1E7 
masers plus an antenna to get power from the masers back at earth would cost 
even more power?

You might not to believe what I'm going to say but I'll say it anyway.  We 
DON'T want to use the design I just described (it took me the entire time I 
was writing this e-mail to figure that out for myself.  Do I feel dumb or 
what?) .  We could much more easily launch more reaction mass with the 
Asimov for its ion acclerator than launch 1E7 masers plus a really huge 
antenna.  So why bother sending you the previous  five paragraph's?  Because 
maybe we can't build an ion rocket small enough and light enough to carry 
and still have it give .75c+ exhaust velocities.  Maybe we'll be stuck with 
reflecting energy and so I'd like to leave that idea on the board if it 
comes to that.

One last tangent.  Some concerns I've had with Kevin's design is how to rig 
a stable sail while keeping the Asimov hab and drive modules from being 
fried.

The best idea I can come up with is to rig the sail like an umbrella.  While 
reflecting the maser beams, it pulls the Asimov hab module along like an 
open umbrella pulls a man on a windy day.  I seem to recall that Kevin 
adressed the shielding of the hab section by putting it front of the sail. 
 From an engineering standpoint (like I know anything about egineering), 
this seems more difficult than tying cable from the rim of the sail to the 
hab section and just letting the sail tow it along.  Do you know what the 
group decided on this topic?  Couldn't we just put more shielding on the 
side of the hab section facing Sol?

At last, returning from my tangents, I'd like to say that I also may not 
make sense because I am just realizing how little I really understand the 
designs we've been discusing.  I found out after rereading several 
newsletters that I didn't understand Kevin's Mars idea even half as well as 
I thought and so I've sent Kevin and Kelly some questions.  I'll  give you a 
copy just in case you have time to answer a few.

Since you answered most of my questions about my two bits worth, I'll I can 
clear up the final paragraph that you didn't get.

>>Since we'll have to carry so much reaction mass for the launch track, I
>>suggest we use the E18W we have planned to mag-sail launch the ship.   So 
I
>>guess we launch the track via the ion accelerator using it as a rail gun 
if
>>that is possible.

>This part is an example of the kind of thing where I don't get what you 
want
>to say even after reading it several times.

In the first sentence I was trying to take into account how the heck we 
would push a ship that is carrying all of the RM needed for a deceleration. 
 Essentially my idea was to use a beam (maser, laser, particle beam, 
whatever works) to push what was probably going to be a multi-million ton 
starship.

The mag-sail propelled by a relativistic particle beam has been my prefered 
idea only because I think I understand the concept.  Not a very good reason 
for supporting it but now I know how congress and the public feel when faced 
with the choice of new technologies to invest time and money into 
researching, producing, and using.

By the way, I found out last night that a Kevin's MARS idea seemed to be 
using another kind of sail to reflect microwaves.  If this statement is 
incorrect, please correct me.  I wander in the dark here.

The second sentence of that admittantly confusing paragraph (two sentences 
does not make a paragraph I seem to remember my 8th grade english teacher 
saying) seemed to be a fragment referring to how to save ship mass by seeing 
whether or not we could have the ion accelerator double as rail gun launcher 
for the reaction mass rather than carry a separate rail gun in addition to 
the accelerator.

Thinking about this rail launcher, we might want to carry a second rail 
launcher anyway if we want to preload a fuel track for the trip home.  Or we 
could anchor the Asimov to an asteroid and load the acceleration track while 
using another shuttling system to explore TC.

I hope most of what I wrote here makes sense.  Again, I'm pressed for time 
so I'm closing up.  Peace and long life (through relativitic interstellar 
travel).

Thanks,
Brian

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: hous0042 , KellySt ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Cc: David , rddesign ,
         stevev , zkulpa 
Subject: MARS
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 17:09:00 PST


High Kevin, Kelly, and Tim.  It's Brian.

I've finally had the time to research a few of the old newsletters about the 
maser design, trying to understand it better.  I have a few questions that I 
was hoping you would have the time to answer.

1. Kevin said that the RM mass weight will go up from what was originally 
hoped for on the decel phase to TC.  Kevin told me in  a previous e-mail 
that exhaust speeds between .75 and .8c were to expected and that was down 
from the envisioned .9996c.  Have you been able to figure just how much more 
RM we will have to carry?

2. I'm concerned about the size and weight of the maser sail.  Actually I'm 
concerned about anything that has a diameter of a sizable moon.  Do you have 
any good idea as to how much the sail will weigh?  After all, if it gets 
much above say 100,000 tons (E5 tons), it will probably be too heavy to 
carry enough RM to stop.

3. This maser thing.  What exactly is a maser?  A microwave beam generator? 
 Is there a way to reflect these microwaves with good efficiency?  Perhaps 
we could somehow rig a reflector to detact from our ship and reflect back 
the beam and do away with a linear accelerator.

4. Has anyone figured out just how long the accelerator needs to be since it 
has to be linear?  More to the point, can we keep the linear accelerator 
short enough and, therefore, light enough to produce relativistic exhaust 
velocities?

5. Can we even produce the magnetic fields in an accelerator necessary to 
get an exhaust velocity of .9996c for .62kg/sec. or even a .75c exhaust 
velocity using say a 1km long accelerator?  My understanding is that field 
generators that confine magnetics fields have a tendency to blow up.  I hope 
I'm wrong but I thought you might know if this concern applies to the 
designs we've discussed.

From popserver Thu Feb 29 08:08:12 GMT 1996
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	["1446" "Wed" "28" "February" "1996" "23:55:39" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "33" "Re: ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 20:57:32 -0800 (PST)
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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: bmansur@oc.edu
cc: David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, stevev@efn.org,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re: ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 20:58:31 -0800 (PST)
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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: Re: your mail = Greenhouse
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 23:56:01 -0500

> I hope I had the letters right, as far as I know it is the main Australian
> scientific organization. The Australians are concerned a lot about the ozon
> hole (they are the ones that are most fulnarable) I assume this interest
> makes them also a bit more aware about the greenhouse effect.

> Timothy

Ozone hole is also a bit over blown.  It only happend in the dead of winter
over the antarctic, and records show it varies a lot but isn't stronger now
than in late 50's.  No idea whats normal.  (Oh, it does show CFC's ditn't
cause it. They haven't been made that long.)  Effects on the ground are not
critical.  (Even if they did happen outside the antarctic.) Increas UV to the
surface is less than the change due normal weather changes, and of course
since the effect oly happens in winter when the UV is much lower anyway...

Kelly

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Message-ID: <960228235639_233978168@emout07.mail.aol.com>
From: KellySt@aol.com
To: bmansur@oc.edu, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
cc: David@interworld.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com, stevev@efn.org,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Subject: Re: MARS
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 23:56:41 -0500

Hi Brian

> High Kevin, Kelly, and Tim.  It's Brian.

> I've finally had the time to research a few of the old newsletters about
the 
> maser design, trying to understand it better.  I have a few questions that
I 
> was hoping you would have the time to answer.

> 1. Kevin said that the RM mass weight will go up from what was originally 
> hoped for on the decel phase to TC.  Kevin told me in  a previous e-mail 
> that exhaust speeds between .75 and .8c were to expected and that was down 
> from the envisioned .9996c.  Have you been able to figure just how much
more 
> RM we will have to carry?

I can't answer this.  Last time I remembered we were having problems in that
the push from the maser would overwelm the power of the reversing engine.  So
It couldn'r slow down.  That was Kevins big problem.  Using your decelorator
might get around that, but you'ld need a huge amount of fuel.  Not nearly as
much fuel as my fusion rocket idea, but a lot.

> 2. I'm concerned about the size and weight of the maser sail.  Actually I'm

> concerned about anything that has a diameter of a sizable moon.  Do you
have 
> any good idea as to how much the sail will weigh?  After all, if it gets 
> much above say 100,000 tons (E5 tons), it will probably be too heavy to 
> carry enough RM to stop.

I'ld like to know this too.

> 3. This maser thing.  What exactly is a maser?  A microwave > beam
generator? 

Its the microwave equivelent of a Laser beam.  Oterwise a normal microwave
sources would fan out to much.

> Is there a way to reflect these microwaves with good efficiency?  Perhaps 
> we could somehow rig a reflector to detact from our ship and reflect back 
> the beam and do away with a linear accelerator.

Any wire mesh will reflect them. But reflecting them in a way that you can
decelerate doesn't work unless the reflector is separte from the ship.  If it
is, it qiukly couldn't reflect onto the ship.


> 4. Has anyone figured out just how long the accelerator needs to be since
it 
> has to be linear?  More to the point, can we keep the linear accelerator 
> short enough and, therefore, light enough to produce relativistic exhaust 
> velocities?

Another very good question.

> 5. Can we even produce the magnetic fields in an accelerator necessary to 
> get an exhaust velocity of .9996c for .62kg/sec. or even a .75c exhaust 
> velocity using say a 1km long accelerator?  My understanding is that field 
> generators that confine magnetics fields have a tendency to blow up.  I
hope 
> I'm wrong but I thought you might know if this concern applies to the 
> designs we've discussed.

Your probably right.  Since we've been stuck trying to get past theoretical
imposibilities.  We nerver worked out all of the practical difficulties.

Kelly

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Message-ID: <960228235617_233977784@emout04.mail.aol.com>
From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Greenhouse
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 23:56:19 -0500

> >I was a little suprized you brought it up, given that this doesn't discus
> >global warming or the so called "greenhouse effect" (i.e. artificial
> >greenhouse gases altering atmospheric IR transmitions) that we've been
> >arguing about.

> Yes, I also read an other page, that was quite large (that one of the
CSIRO)

> Greenhouse basics: 
> http://www.erin.gov.au/portfolio/esd/climate/grenbasi.html

> I referred ro "Bad Greenhouse" because it made so clear what the main
> effects were and because it compared a normal greenhouse with the
greenhouse
> effect.

> Timothy

Thats true, it was a good reff for that.

Kelly

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 23:56:31 -0500

Timothy van der Linden
To Kelly,

> >> This assumes you can quite accurately steer a packet, 
> >> but a packet is build up of a lot of small particles all 
> >> going their own way (of course mainly forwards). ----
> >
> >Who says?  A fuel packet could be the size of a fright car of that would
> >help, but I'ld assumed it would be smaller.  More like pill to bear can
> >sized.  It would almost impossible to spray a charged fog of particals out
of
> >a gun and keep them together.  Their mutual repulsion would cause them to
> >defuse to much.  You'ld have to pack them in mini-containers.  I supose
you
> >could treat those containers or packets as particals, but I don't think
thats
> >what your thinking of.

> Yes, you are right, lets assume packets of 1 kg. Can we 
> accelerate them up to 1E8 m/sec in an accelerator of 
> a few hundreds of metres?

Well It will be an order less given the lack of a deceleration capacity of
the ship from a higher speed.

Actually I was thinking bigger fuel canisters might be better.  The ship
could stear a few big canisters to itself with laser propulsion system set up
on the ship.  that would probably allow it to scoop up launched fuel that had
drifted farther off course.  (I sent out a summary page discusing that.

> I guess, I'm a little overwhelmed by the amount of energy 
> again, but forgetting that, are you planning to use 
> magnetic or charged acceleration?

Doesn't make any diff to me.  I'll try to run some numbers off using the
equation once I work out the needed ship masses.

> Let do a quick calculation about the acceleration needed:
> v=x*t  a=v*t --> a=v^2/x = 1E16/100 = 1E14 m/s^2

Ouch, 10 trillion G's!!!!

> >>>I really wish I had some numbers on the power a mag
> >>>launcher takes
> >>You could calculate the least amount of energy very easely
> >>if you know the exhaust speed and the amount of mass 
> >>per second.
> >If you send the equations along I'll run some numbers through for my
summary
> >documents.

> Non-relativistic: Power needed = 0.5 M Vexh^2 Watts
>   M=Mass per second  Vexh=exhaus velocity  (I'm sorry that it is so simple)

> >You could rig up the systems to degrade in capacity not just fail.  But
the
> >more detailed the structures (like the inside of Nanos) the more slight
> >defects will disrupt the function of the system.  (I'n not optimistic
about
> >Nanos longevity in radiation fields.)

> What I was hoping is that the quantity could overcome the quality: A lot of
> nanos could undo the work of a few broken-nanos. Untill the amount get
75-25
> still a lot of work can be done. Of course this doesn't rule out the
> statistical breakdown after a longer period. But only the few extremeties,
> like the 1:1000 chance of not working directly after manufacturing.
> I'm quite sure that if we made chips today with size as 10 years ago, we
> could make them much more robust.
> OK, all in all, redundancy only works to reduce the number of incidences,
> but not the total "decay". But the number of incidences may be quite high
> without redundancies.

A complex issue.  Can you tollerate electronics no better than 10 year old
ones?  Thats a 100 fold decrease in capacity?

> >> The only problem is that higher-tech (not highest-tech) 
> >> has only few redundancies because that isn't efficient 
> >> in our society.  About highest tech, we won't be using 
> >> that much, since it is inherently dangerous to use systems
> >>  that haven't proven their workings enough.
> >
> >Redundancies start to drastically degrade the performance of some systems
> >(like I.C. chips), and we may (or may not) need all the performance we can
> >get for a starship.

> Maybe this is something that we did not dig out enough, we all assumed that
> the engine designs we came up with would work without much problems for
most
> of the time they were needed. But is it really that easy? I wouldn't like
to
> have two enormous engines and one of them suddenly(?) stops working. In the
> best case we could turn of the other within time. Worst case, the starship
> would start to rotate an be ripped apart by all the abnormal g-forces.
> Besides this, can we savely have an engine shutdown for say a week. I can
> imagine that for beamed energy this may be a problem. (eg. Non matching
> speeds of beamed matter). So how much backup do we need, does it mean that
> the whole ship gets twice as big?

Beamed power wouldn't care, but my fuel launcher (10 trillon G's!!!!) would
get disrupted a bit.

As far as engines I guess we make the parts we can very redundant and the
rest so simple and relyable as to be fool proof. 

> >Anyway, in a political arena peoples techno prejidices will effect the
> >projects and the protest to them.  Every analysis of nuclear powe shows
its
> >not capable of poluting as mouch as the coal plants it would replace.  Yet
> >nukes get intense public and governmental polution and safty attention,
coal
> >little.

> Yes, it's sad, however a single mayor error in a nuclear plant can make a
> whole country (like the Netherlands) inhabitable for a long time.

Actually not is the plant is designed well.  Here in the U.S. we had a powe
plant called three mile Island (bet you heard of it) where the operators were
runing it at full power with ot coolant, they even overroad all the emergency
anti-melt down system as they tried to engage.  The plant was designed so
well it showed no effects of its melt down.  The operators didn't even notice
it happening!  Without laboratory equipment you couldn't even detect an
effect outside the are. No significat radiation increasde (I.e. it always
radiated less than a runing coal plant).  Of course the reactor core was
ruined  (anyone for 4 billion $'s worth of radioative slag welded to the
insdide of a reactor case imbeddxed in 10 feet of concrete?).

> Anyway lets hope fission or renewable energy will soon replace most of
them.

You probably meen fusion.  Maybe eventually, but in the present political
climate not a chance.  Renewable  produces to little power and has too many
health and safty problems.  Utilities here are figuring on natural gas fueled
fuel cells as the next big wave in power plants.  Probably the basic power
for the next 40 years or more.

> >> Are you also thinking that hibernation is more or less 
> >> trivial? 
> >
> >No, just that I beleave the public thinks it is.  But in politics reality
is
> >unimportant, impressions are everything.

> Indeed, maybe it is time to start a (yet another) new science fiction
series
> to promote our ideas and collect money by selling T-shirts, computergames
> and stocks for our company to be (Live internet discussions and camera
shots).
> (I'm not really kidding...)

Well I was just telling Dave LIT needed to get more high profile...  But I'm
not sure about this?

Kelly

From popserver Thu Feb 29 08:08:23 GMT 1996
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	["599" "Wed" "28" "February" "1996" "23:56:27" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "26" "Re: fnrg: 'COLD FUSION' BREAKTHROUGH" "^From:" nil nil "2" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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Message-ID: <960228235625_233977896@mail06.mail.aol.com>
From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Subject: Re: fnrg: 'COLD FUSION' BREAKTHROUGH
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 23:56:27 -0500

 > Hello,

 > I'm listening in on the free energy newsgroup since a few days, today I
got
 > the attached message. I'm really wondering if it works that good.

 > Timothy



 > This file is taken from the Institute for New Energy Web Site  
> at:
     www.padrak.com/ine/

 > If you are at all interested:  See the new (2/25/96) Subject
 > Index at:
     www.padrak.com/ine/SUBJECTS.html

> 'COLD FUSION' BREAKTHROUGH


Hum, this is eiather total bull, or a big break through.  Given that it
hasn't hit the normal media yet (I mean after a few months it should have
come out) I'm suspisious.

Kelly

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Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 23:56:38 -0500



> To Kelly,

> Most of your letters sounded familiar, only two things I want to say:

Draft text Externally fueled Fusion drive
===========================================================================
>Because of the deceleration fuel limitation, it is unlikely that the ship
>can get to more than a quarter or a third of the speed of light.  But
>that's still a 100,000 kilometers per second.  The ship will need to
>protect itself against impacts.  One of the simplest ideas is to push
>several miles of charged dust ahead of the ship.  --
======================
> How do you shove a few kilometres of clouds? Especially during acceleration
> and deceleration a lot of cloud-rebuilding will be needed.

Ion cannon.  Since the dust is light, it would take little power to throw it
that far ahead.  The parts that fall back on the ship can be reused, the rest
would need to be replaced.  Since you spend most of the mission coasting its
not a big problem.


Habitation deck
===========================================================================
>One large limitation in the starships design, is the habitation deck. The
>Space Settlements design study published by NASA (reference 1), pages 22
>&;42 states that most people can adapt to rotation rates of up to 3 rpm,
>but that this adaptation might not be possible if personnel routinely move
>between the rotating 1 G. sections and the non-rotating zero-G sections of
>a space settlement or ship. The design study strongly recommended a
>rotation rate of less than 1 rpm. But that would require a habitat over
>1600 meters across. A 3 rpm limit still requires a habitat 200 meters
>across, but this at least seems plausible for a large exploration platform.
>A 4 rpm rate would allow a 110 meter across habitat, but for purposes of
>this design I'll assume a 3 rpm rate. Putting this 200 meter in diameter
>ring in the ship, immediately means a very large ship.
=================

> One may not need a complete ring. Just a habitation "cube" at the two ends
> of a long "bar". Then just turn this bar around, thus the ends making a
> common circle. It is in fact just a the torus mentioned above only with a
> lot of segments left out.

True but you still have to have the same cross size, and you can't always use
a bar.  (Most of my designs have a channel runing through the center of the
ship.)

Kelly

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: KellySt 
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
        rddesign , stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: RE:
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 09:36:00 PST



 ----------
From: KellySt
Date: Wednesday, February 28, 1996 11:56PM



> To Kelly,

> Most of your letters sounded familiar, only two things I want to say:

Draft text Externally fueled Fusion drive
===========================================================================
>>Because of the deceleration fuel limitation, it is unlikely that the ship
>>can get to more than a quarter or a third of the speed of light.  But
>>that's still a 100,000 kilometers per second.  The ship will need to
>>protect itself against impacts.  One of the simplest ideas is to push
>>several miles of charged dust ahead of the ship.  --
======================
>> How do you shove a few kilometres of clouds? Especially during 
acceleration
>> and deceleration a lot of cloud-rebuilding will be needed.

>Ion cannon.  Since the dust is light, it would take little power to throw 
it
>that far ahead.  The parts that fall back on the ship can be reused, the 
rest
>would need to be replaced.  Since you spend most of the mission coasting 
its
>not a big problem.

Just stating the obvious here, I'd note that keeping a dust cloud close 
enough to your ship when decelerating would be a big problem with anything 
but an ion/fusion drive.  With the ion/fusion drive the ion exhaust would 
serve the same purpose as a dust cloud since it is being spewed in the 
direction of flight.

Brian

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MIME-Version: 1.0
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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Brian Mansur 
cc: "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
        David , jim ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
         stevev , zkulpa 
Subject: Re: My Two Bits Ain't Worth 1E-15 (Take 2)
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 09:19:36 -0600 (CST)



On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Brian Mansur wrote:
> 
> Jumping to a tangent, I wonder if this idea could help solve some problems 
> of decelerating Kevin's MARS.  I noticed that his design is launched by 
> using a beam that hits a sail.  The trouble seemed to be how to reverse the 
> beam's direction to in order slow the ship.

The simplest way to do it would be a mirror, but then the mirror speeds 
up way too fast, and the reflected maser light doppler shifts into the 
Extremely Low Frequency (ELF) region.

> The solution we've dissused to date is to harnessing that previously 
> reflected power to run an ion accelerator that speeds its RM up to such a 
> high velocity that very little RM is needed to stop the ship (compared to 
> fusion powered ion rocket that can only carry so much power in fusion fuel). 

The problem is that the masers give a push toward TC, so the engine must 
push back even harder.  Unfortunately, there is not enough power in the 
maser beam to use the minimum amount of mass in the exhaust stream.  The 
only solution I can think of is to turn up the amount of mass in the 
exhaust stream.  My original MARS design called for using the lineac for 
both accelleration and deaccelleration phases.  If instead, we use maser 
sailing for the acceleration portion, and keep all the RM for the decell 
phase (using a lower Exhaust Velocity) Then I think we can slow down.

> One last tangent.  Some concerns I've had with Kevin's design is how to rig 
> a stable sail while keeping the Asimov hab and drive modules from being 
> fried.
> 
> The best idea I can come up with is to rig the sail like an umbrella.  While 
> reflecting the maser beams, it pulls the Asimov hab module along like an 
> open umbrella pulls a man on a windy day.  I seem to recall that Kevin 
> adressed the shielding of the hab section by putting it front of the sail. 
>  From an engineering standpoint (like I know anything about egineering), 
> this seems more difficult than tying cable from the rim of the sail to the 
> hab section and just letting the sail tow it along.  Do you know what the 
> group decided on this topic?  Couldn't we just put more shielding on the 
> side of the hab section facing Sol?

Two points.
1) The design I am envisioning now is like you just described.  The Sail 
tows the "Asimov", and the photon pressure keeps the sail open.

2) shielding should be pretty easy, just about any metal should reflect 
the maser beam.  while in a Microwave oven this causes sparks, I'm sure 
that this is because of feedback between the microwave tube and the 
reflecting surface.  since we will be a long way from the generator, I 
think we won't have to worry about that

Kevin

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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Brian Mansur 
cc: KellySt ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
        David , rddesign ,
        stevev , zkulpa 
Subject: Re: MARS
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 09:39:49 -0600 (CST)



On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Brian Mansur wrote:

> High Kevin,  It's Brian.

Just what are you implying, I'm not high!  (right now)  ;)

Oh!, I get it.  Hi yourself.

> I've finally had the time to research a few of the old newsletters about the 
> maser design, trying to understand it better.  I have a few questions that I 
> was hoping you would have the time to answer.
> 
> 1. Kevin said that the RM mass weight will go up from what was originally 
> hoped for on the decel phase to TC.  Kevin told me in  a previous e-mail 
> that exhaust speeds between .75 and .8c were to expected and that was down 
> from the envisioned .9996c.  Have you been able to figure just how much more 
> RM we will have to carry?

Not yet, but it is on my list of things to do over spring break.  I'll 
start re-vamping my ship model (in spreadsheet form) in the next few weeks
in a previous mail, I said that I don't think we will need that much more 
RM, because the engine won't be running the whole time like I originally 
evisioned.

> 2. I'm concerned about the size and weight of the maser sail.  Actually I'm 
> concerned about anything that has a diameter of a sizable moon.  Do you have 
> any good idea as to how much the sail will weigh?  After all, if it gets 
> much above say 100,000 tons (E5 tons), it will probably be too heavy to 
> carry enough RM to stop.

The sail can have a large area to weight ratio, because it can have large 
(~2cm) holes in it.  Like chicken wire, only not as thick.  Because the 
microwaves have such a large wavelength, they won't even "see" the holes.

> 3. This maser thing.  What exactly is a maser?  A microwave beam generator? 
>  Is there a way to reflect these microwaves with good efficiency?  Perhaps 
> we could somehow rig a reflector to detact from our ship and reflect back 
> the beam and do away with a linear accelerator.

A MASER is a Microwave lASER.  The reason to use a maser instead of a 
'normal' microwave generator is the same reason you'd use a laser instead 
of just reflecting sunlight.  Masers stay pretty well focused even over 
very long distances.  Robert L. Foreward in his book "Flight of the 
dragonfly" (recommended reading) describes going to barnard's star (~6 LY)
using just this system.  the sail is segmented into two pieces:  the 
inner sail and the outer (or ring) sail.  the areas are in the ratio of 
1:3.  The problem with this, is that it puts an effective upper limit on 
the ships speed.  This is because as the maser bounces off the larger 
ring sail, that sail speeds up drastically.  If that sail should approach 
the speed of light, then it stops reflecting.  The second problem is that 
the power beam has to be turned up by a factor of three (or more) halfway 
through the trip.  Foreward got a lot of dramatic suspense out of having 
some political problems spring up (funding cutbacks etc.) that almost 
stopped (or rather failed to stop) the mission.  A 12 LY long power cord 
is one thing, having to leave it plugged in for forty years is quite 
another. 

> 4. Has anyone figured out just how long the accelerator needs to be since it 
> has to be linear?  More to the point, can we keep the linear accelerator 
> short enough and, therefore, light enough to produce relativistic exhaust 
> velocities?

That is purely a function of the acceleration inside the core.  if the 
ions are accelerated at a measley 1 G, then our core must be nearly 1 LY 
long.  on the other hand, if we cram the magnetics in, I hope to be able 
to keep it under 10 Km

> 5. Can we even produce the magnetic fields in an accelerator necessary to 
> get an exhaust velocity of .9996c for .62kg/sec. or even a .75c exhaust 
> velocity using say a 1km long accelerator?  My understanding is that field 

1 Km is probably too short.

> generators that confine magnetics fields have a tendency to blow up.  I hope 
> I'm wrong but I thought you might know if this concern applies to the 
> designs we've discussed.
> 

hopefully, this is one of the areas that will benefit most from new tech.


Kevin

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	["2217" "Thu" "29" "February" "1996" "09:51:17" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "51" "Re: ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 07:52:27 -0800 (PST)
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Message-ID: 
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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: KellySt@aol.com
cc: bmansur@oc.edu, David@interworld.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, stevev@efn.org,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re:  Your Idea of an Ion decelerator is new, and may actually help.  But it would
> need a couple mods. 
> 
> If you wanted it to travel much slower than the main ship.  It would need to
> be launched years or decades ahead of the main ship.  Which would make it
> impractical.  

I think so too.

> If you were going to send them out at about the same speed anyway.  You might
> as well launch them together, separte them at the start of decel phase, and
> start it up.  The Decelerator would boost like a bat out of hell and slow the
> main ship with its wake.  It MAY take less energy that way then just using
> the decelerators power in a on-board deceleration rocket in the main ship,
> but I'ld be surprized if it did.
> 
> The big problem with stoping is it takes so much power, that caring the fuel
> to generate it would overwhelm the ship.  
> 
> Hummm.  There is one way your decelerator idea could really have an edge.
>  Since the decelerator wouldn't need enough power to decelerate itself and
> all of its fuel, just the light ship.  It may have a much better power to
> weight ratio!  The ship wouldn't need to decelerate the deceleration fuel.  A
> microwave decelerator would be very compatable with kevins Microwave sail
> system.

I think this system is worth studying.  IF both parts leave Sol by maser 
sail, and separate at the halfway point.  with the decellerator keeping 
the maser sail (using it as an antenna converting the maser to elec) and 
blasting (new twist) fusion fuel right down the Explorer's throat, i 
think it might work.  

> Humm, You may have come up with a key technology for use.  Have to think
> about this.
> 
> Of, course it also strands the people at the target star system.  So you'ld
> need to build a secoundary system like Kevins return maser.
> 
> Hey Kev!  What do you think?

I think in order to work, it needs to combine your explorer drive with my 
maser sail.  The one big problem I see is when the decellerator's 
velocity overcomes the exhaust velocity.  the ions would then be moving 
toward TC with some residual velocity.  Provided this is small enough, 
this just might work.    Let me think on this.

Kevin

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , KellySt 
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
        jim , rddesign ,
        stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Your Idea of an Ion decelerator is new, and may actually help.  But it 
would
>need a couple mods.

High praise from Kelly.  I'm genuinely honored.  Problem is, how much power 
will it take to make it work?

As the ion decelerator module starts to blast the Asimov with ions, its 
relative speed to the starship will eventually reach several %c.  And the 
distance between the two units will increase making the aiming of the ion 
stream dificult to impossible past a certain point.  Also, to keep the ion 
stream upwards of the relative speed to the Asimov we'll need a lot of 
power.  How much is the multi-trillion dollar question.

In terms of stopping potential to the Asimov, a forward rigged ram scoop 
would feel some drag from the stream, depending on how fast we can make it, 
and the collected ions could then be shot back down the ion drive toward TC 
getting two bites of the cherry so to speak.

>If you wanted it to travel much slower than the main ship.  It would need 
to
>be launched years or decades ahead of the main ship.  Which would make it
>impractical.

Its the same delima with tanker scheme I posted a month ago.  It takes a 
while to get the slow moving beasts into position.  The good news is that 
the idea may actually have a chance of working.

>If you were going to send them out at about the same speed anyway.  You 
might
>as well launch them together, separte them at the start of decel phase, and
>start it up.  The Decelerator would boost like a bat out of hell and slow 
the
>main ship with its wake.  It MAY take less energy that way then just using
>the decelerators power in a on-board deceleration rocket in the main ship,
>but I'ld be surprized if it did.

Read about my Two Bits ain't worth 1E-15 cents.  It talks about the idea of 
turning the Asimov into its own decel track launcher.  The Asimov is 
launched carrying most or all of the fuel and RM it needs to lay a decel 
track behind it while en route to TC.  After an initial slowdown burn, the 
Asimov encounters the faster moving track it laid of the years of cruising 
(assuming the ship was cruising the whole time).  Tim noted that there are 
serious drag problems with this idea and I wonder if the reaction mass ratio 
savings are canceled by power costs to accelerate the decel track mass to 
necessarily high exhaust velocities.

>The big problem with stoping is it takes so much power, that caring the 
fuel
>to generate it would overwhelm the ship.

>Hummm.  There is one way your decelerator idea could really have an edge.
> Since the decelerator wouldn't need enough power to decelerate itself and
>all of its fuel, just the light ship.  It may have a much better power to
>weight ratio!  The ship wouldn't need to decelerate the deceleration fuel. 
 A
>microwave decelerator would be very compatable with kevins Microwave sail
>system.

Read my reply to Tim's reply to my Two Bits Ain't worth . . .

>Of, course it also strands the people at the target star system.  So you'ld
>need to build a secoundary system like Kevins return maser.

Its that old question of how automated can we get a robot construction 
force.
Got to go to class.  Hope all this made sense.

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: My Two Bits Ain't Worth 1E-15 (Take 2)
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:47:52 +0100

To little-time Brian,

>On the e-mail you discussed, I don't think you received an e-mail previous 
>to it.  That may be a fault with our school computer mailing server or 
>somehow even my own fault.  Don't worry, it was a bad idea that I was 
>sending and thats why I wrote the e-mail that you got.  It might have 
>answered your question as to why we would first shoot the RM out of the back 
>of Asimov only to catch it again.

I received two mails previous to it, one telling you had a good idea, and
one that was similar to the one I responded to, only dated about 10 minutes
later.

>The whole idea was to find a way to cut down on the weight of the ship as it 
>tries to decelerate near TC.  My first idea to solve this problem from a 
>while back was tankers.  That divided the maximum mass of the ship for the 
>deceleration phase by however many tankers were used.  By spreading out the 
>fuel along a track, we are left with only the dry ship mass to slow down 
>(plus fuel to power the ion accelerator and ionizing lasers for the incoming 
>RM).
>
>The seemingly lost e-mail talked about launching a superheavy starship ahead 
>of the Asimov.  It could either carry many, many tons of RM and a rail 
>launcher to lay the deceleration track or it could hold particle beams (or 
>masers) to hit a sail that would slow the Asimov.

Ah, I'm starting to understand.

>Jumping to a tangent, I wonder if this idea could help solve some problems 
>of decelerating Kevin's MARS.  I noticed that his design is launched by 
>using a beam that hits a sail.  The trouble seemed to be how to reverse the 
>beam's direction to in order slow the ship.

Indeed, we have had a long discussion about "dragon-fly" sails and
reflecting clouds of plasma.

>The solution we've dissused to date is to harnessing that previously 
>reflected power to run an ion accelerator that speeds its RM up to such a 
>high velocity that very little RM is needed to stop the ship (compared to 
>fusion powered ion rocket that can only carry so much power in fusion fuel). 

Wow, a 4 line sentence without a comma. (Sorry, it just took some time
before I realized why I had to read it more than one time).

>Now about reversing the direction of the maser energy without having 
>complicating the design.  I wonder if we would be able to build and launch a 
>massive maser starship that simply harnesses the maser energy from Sol and 
>redirects it to the side of the Asimov facing TC.

Yes, I wonder about that too, we haven't found a really good method yet.

>You might not to believe what I'm going to say but I'll say it anyway.  We 
>DON'T want to use the design I just described (it took me the entire time I 
>was writing this e-mail to figure that out for myself.  Do I feel dumb or 
>what?).

I think this is what is making me confused. :|

>The best idea I can come up with is to rig the sail like an umbrella.  While 
>reflecting the maser beams, it pulls the Asimov hab module along like an 
>open umbrella pulls a man on a windy day.  I seem to recall that Kevin 
>adressed the shielding of the hab section by putting it front of the sail. 
> From an engineering standpoint (like I know anything about egineering), 
>this seems more difficult than tying cable from the rim of the sail to the 
>hab section and just letting the sail tow it along.  Do you know what the 
>group decided on this topic?  Couldn't we just put more shielding on the 
>side of the hab section facing Sol?

I'm not sure how Kevin wanted to solve that problem, I think we didn't
discuss that, we had more wories about the method of reflection. I could
imagine that if the ship is in front of the sail (i.e. at the Earth side) it
should just act like a sail (thus reflecting it straight back without
absorbtion).

>By the way, I found out last night that a Kevin's MARS idea seemed to be 
>using another kind of sail to reflect microwaves.  If this statement is 
>incorrect, please correct me.  I wander in the dark here.

I'm not sure, another kind than what? You should keep in mind that
microwaves reflect on different surfaces that visible light does. It may
even be possible to use a mesh of metal. Roughly said if the mesh-holes are
smaller than the wave-length then it will reflect the waves. For microwaves,
that means very small holes, but anyway, it may save some weight (CD's have
small puts too).

>The second sentence of that admittantly confusing paragraph (two sentences 
>does not make a paragraph I seem to remember my 8th grade english teacher 
>saying) seemed to be a fragment referring to how to save ship mass by seeing 
>whether or not we could have the ion accelerator double as rail gun launcher 
>for the reaction mass rather than carry a separate rail gun in addition to 
>the accelerator.

:) A new record, a sentence of 5.2 lines without commas. I seems that your
English teacher is wrong when saying that two sentences do not make a paragraph.

>Thinking about this rail launcher, we might want to carry a second rail 
>launcher anyway if we want to preload a fuel track for the trip home.  Or we 
>could anchor the Asimov to an asteroid and load the acceleration track while 
>using another shuttling system to explore TC.

Could you explain to me what makes a rail launcher different from an ion-gun?

>I hope most of what I wrote here makes sense.  Again, I'm pressed for time 
>so I'm closing up.  Peace and long life (through relativitic interstellar 
>travel).

It is already clearer, thanks.


Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: MARS
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:47:59 +0100

To Brian from Tim

>3. This maser thing.  What exactly is a maser?  A microwave beam generator? 
> Is there a way to reflect these microwaves with good efficiency?  Perhaps 
>we could somehow rig a reflector to detact from our ship and reflect back 
>the beam and do away with a linear accelerator.

Indeed it is laser with microwaves. Thus making highly directional
monochromic microwaves. I remember a college-demonstration where wax (where
candles are made of) where used as a lens for microwaves. (There we just
used a magnetron and waveguide to generate microwaves)

>4. Has anyone figured out just how long the accelerator needs to be since it 
>has to be linear?  More to the point, can we keep the linear accelerator 
>short enough and, therefore, light enough to produce relativistic exhaust 
>velocities?

Some long time ago I figured out that it would probably be too long, the
formulas are not so easy to integrate so at that time I used some repeating
summation. I assumed that we would not have a constant acceleration of the
mass, but a constant power input. This means that initially it accelerates
fast but at the end much slower. Relativistic effects do make this
difference worse.
But as Kevin corrected me a week ago, why not use a torus instead a lineac?
You seem to have a reason for not liking a torus, could you tell me what
that reason is?

>5. Can we even produce the magnetic fields in an accelerator necessary to 
>get an exhaust velocity of .9996c for .62kg/sec. or even a .75c exhaust 
>velocity using say a 1km long accelerator?  My understanding is that field 
>generators that confine magnetics fields have a tendency to blow up.  I hope 
>I'm wrong but I thought you might know if this concern applies to the 
>designs we've discussed.

I think we should not worry about that too much, for me this is just a
problem for the gigantic-energy stack (i.e. problems involving creation and
containment of gigangtic energies).


Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: your mail = Greenhouse
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:48:04 +0100

>> I hope I had the letters right, as far as I know it is the main Australian
>> scientific organization. The Australians are concerned a lot about the ozon
>> hole (they are the ones that are most fulnarable) I assume this interest
>> makes them also a bit more aware about the greenhouse effect.
>
>> Timothy
>
>Ozone hole is also a bit over blown.  It only happend in the dead of winter
>over the antarctic, and records show it varies a lot but isn't stronger now
>than in late 50's.  No idea whats normal.  (Oh, it does show CFC's ditn't
>cause it. They haven't been made that long.)  Effects on the ground are not
>critical.  (Even if they did happen outside the antarctic.) Increas UV to the
>surface is less than the change due normal weather changes, and of course
>since the effect oly happens in winter when the UV is much lower anyway...

Hmm, strange, these Australians seem to worry a lot about it. I also heard
that at times there isn't any ozon at all at the antarctic region (or at
least much less than during other times).
I guess its time for me to have another look in the archives...

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:48:08 +0100

>> Let do a quick calculation about the acceleration needed:
>> v=x*t  a=v*t --> a=v^2/x = 1E16/100 = 1E14 m/s^2
>
>Ouch, 10 trillion G's!!!!

Don't worry, you aren't in these containers. What may be a problem though,
is that the containers cannot resist such forces and thus will break down
during acceleration (Imagine several kilograms of debris breaking up while
moving 1/3 c in a very narrow tube).

>A complex issue.  Can you tollerate electronics no better than 10 year old
>ones?  Thats a 100 fold decrease in capacity?

The capacity will come to an end, and if not, how fast should processors be?
We can savely assume that in 20 years every one will have a supercomputer of
today with several Gbytes of memory. But do we need that much? I know I'm on
a hot issue here, 20 years ago no one did see the need for computers either.
But now that we know what we can do with computers we can make a better
estimation of what we need as a minimum. I've read that the Space Shuttle
has less than
1 Mb of memory (256 Kb?) so that would give us a idea of what we need and
what we want.

>Actually not is the plant is designed well.  Here in the U.S. we had a powe
>plant called three mile Island (bet you heard of it) where the operators were
>runing it at full power with ot coolant, they even overroad all the emergency
>anti-melt down system as they tried to engage.  The plant was designed so
>well it showed no effects of its melt down.  The operators didn't even notice
>it happening!  Without laboratory equipment you couldn't even detect an
>effect outside the are. No significat radiation increasde (I.e. it always
>radiated less than a runing coal plant).  Of course the reactor core was
>ruined  (anyone for 4 billion $'s worth of radioative slag welded to the
>insdide of a reactor case imbeddxed in 10 feet of concrete?).

I didn't know they where thAt save, nice to know though.
Here in Holland we have some guy who is turning an old nuclear reactor plant
in a recreation palace.

>You probably meen fusion.  Maybe eventually, but in the present political
>climate not a chance.  Renewable  produces to little power and has too many
>health and safty problems.  Utilities here are figuring on natural gas fueled
>fuel cells as the next big wave in power plants.  Probably the basic power
>for the next 40 years or more.

Yes, I meant fusion. What kind of health problems does renewable energy
have? Are solar-panels also dangerous?
I've an idea and wonder if I'm the first one to think of it: Make a deep
hole (several kilometres) and use the heat difference between down there and
up here to make some energy.

>Well I was just telling Dave LIT needed to get more high profile...  But I'm
>not sure about this?

It indeed looks strange, but then again we will need a completely new way of
advertising if we want to realize this project.


Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: fnrg: 'COLD FUSION' BREAKTHROUGH
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:51:09 +0100

>> 'COLD FUSION' BREAKTHROUGH
>
>
>Hum, this is eiather total bull, or a big break through.  Given that it
>hasn't hit the normal media yet (I mean after a few months it should have
>come out) I'm suspisious.

As far as I know this is not something of the last month. Already since 1989
things are "boiling" (literally). Only the last few years, the phenomenon
seems to be replicable. The electrodes that are used have special
properties, it's not like a chemical battery where almost pair of metals
will work.
In the article someone spoke about "free energy", I think that is not the
case, it isn't energy out of the blue, most people think that is indeed
fusion. Some claim an increased amount of Helium that is formed during the
process.

I must agree with you that I am a bit skeptic, not about the phenomenon but
about the fact that the media haven't really showed interest. I could be
though that most are scared to mention the term "cold fusion" again. Or even
worse, they already think it is nonsense and don't show any interest at all.

Anyway the coming days I will check out some web-sites about it. Oh yeah, I
read that there are already more than 100 patents about cold-fusion
applications (so one would be able to replicate them).

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: fnrg: 'COLD FUSION' BREAKTHROUGH
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:51:09 +0100

>> 'COLD FUSION' BREAKTHROUGH
>
>
>Hum, this is eiather total bull, or a big break through.  Given that it
>hasn't hit the normal media yet (I mean after a few months it should have
>come out) I'm suspisious.

As far as I know this is not something of the last month. Already since 1989
things are "boiling" (literally). Only the last few years, the phenomenon
seems to be replicable. The electrodes that are used have special
properties, it's not like a chemical battery where almost pair of metals
will work.
In the article someone spoke about "free energy", I think that is not the
case, it isn't energy out of the blue, most people think that is indeed
fusion. Some claim an increased amount of Helium that is formed during the
process.

I must agree with you that I am a bit skeptic, not about the phenomenon but
about the fact that the media haven't really showed interest. I could be
though that most are scared to mention the term "cold fusion" again. Or even
worse, they already think it is nonsense and don't show any interest at all.

Anyway the coming days I will check out some web-sites about it. Oh yeah, I
read that there are already more than 100 patents about cold-fusion
applications (so one would be able to replicate them).

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: 
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:51:13 +0100

>> How do you shove a few kilometres of clouds? Especially during acceleration
>> and deceleration a lot of cloud-rebuilding will be needed.
>
>Ion cannon.  Since the dust is light, it would take little power to throw it
>that far ahead.  The parts that fall back on the ship can be reused, the rest
>would need to be replaced.  Since you spend most of the mission coasting its
>not a big problem.

OK

>> One may not need a complete ring. Just a habitation "cube" at the two ends
>> of a long "bar". Then just turn this bar around, thus the ends making a
>> common circle. It is in fact just a the torus mentioned above only with a
>> lot of segments left out.
>
>True but you still have to have the same cross size, and you can't always use
>a bar.  (Most of my designs have a channel runing through the center of the
>ship.)

Indeed the cross size doesn't change, but it would be several times less work. 
You could make a small circle in the middle and attach the bar on that.
That circle could move around the middle-hull.


 __            _            __
|  |          / \          |  |
|H |=========| X |=========| H|       Where H are habitation "cubes"
|__|          \_/          |__|       Where X is the ship-axis
             

Tim

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	["1031" "Thu" "29" "February" "1996" "18:53:48" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "19" "Re: ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 09:55:06 -0800 (PST)
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: > Hummm.  There is one way your decelerator idea could really have an edge.
>>  Since the decelerator wouldn't need enough power to decelerate itself and
>> all of its fuel, just the light ship.  It may have a much better power to
>> weight ratio!  The ship wouldn't need to decelerate the deceleration fuel.  A
>> microwave decelerator would be very compatable with kevins Microwave sail
>> system.
>
>I think this system is worth studying.  IF both parts leave Sol by maser 
>sail, and separate at the halfway point.  with the decellerator keeping 
>the maser sail (using it as an antenna converting the maser to elec) and 
>blasting (new twist) fusion fuel right down the Explorer's throat, i 
>think it might work.  

I've thought several times about this solution. I think the problem is that
the thing cannot blast the stuff accurately enough to the mouth of the Asimov.
I always assumed the fly-away part needed some control from people and thus
those were doomed to die flying at near c velocities between the stars.

Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: MARS
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 18:53:44 +0100

>> 2. I'm concerned about the size and weight of the maser sail.  Actually I'm 
>> concerned about anything that has a diameter of a sizable moon.  Do you have 
>> any good idea as to how much the sail will weigh?  After all, if it gets 
>> much above say 100,000 tons (E5 tons), it will probably be too heavy to 
>> carry enough RM to stop.
>
>The sail can have a large area to weight ratio, because it can have large 
>(~2cm) holes in it.  Like chicken wire, only not as thick.  Because the 
>microwaves have such a large wavelength, they won't even "see" the holes.

Eh, Kevin why do you think that micro waves are called MICRO waves? Assuming
you see what I mean, I think that you agree that such big holes are not allowed.

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: David , hous0042 ,
        jim , KellySt ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: MARS
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 15:36:00 PST


>>4. Has anyone figured out just how long the accelerator needs to be since 
it
>>has to be linear?  More to the point, can we keep the linear accelerator
>>short enough and, therefore, light enough to produce relativistic exhaust
>>velocities?

>Some long time ago I figured out that it would probably be too long, the
>formulas are not so easy to integrate so at that time I used some repeating
>summation. I assumed that we would not have a constant acceleration of the
>mass, but a constant power input. This means that initially it accelerates
>fast but at the end much slower. Relativistic effects do make this
>difference worse.
>But as Kevin corrected me a week ago, why not use a torus instead a lineac?
>You seem to have a reason for not liking a torus, could you tell me what
>that reason is?

A few nights ago I read in an old LIT newsletter about someone noting that a 
torus would cancel the acceleration gained by pushing against the ions.  My 
admitantly limited understanding of vectors made me think about how you 
can't push against your sides and expect to go forward.

I hope that I am very wrong because a torus design makes for nice stacking 
of a potentially flimsy accelerator.   What I mean is has anyone thought 
about what it would be like, structurally, to push what amounts to a 10 km 
long acceleration tower at 10 m/s^2?  For that matter, speaking of other 
starship structures, what would it be like to push a ram scoop (a really 
tall wire mesh cone) at the same rate?

>>5. Can we even produce the magnetic fields in an accelerator necessary to
>>get an exhaust velocity of .9996c for .62kg/sec. or even a .75c exhaust
>>velocity using say a 1km long accelerator?  My understanding is that field 

>>generators that confine magnetics fields have a tendency to blow up.  I 
hope
>>I'm wrong but I thought you might know if this concern applies to the
>>designs we've discussed.

>I think we should not worry about that too much, for me this is just a
>problem for the gigantic-energy stack (i.e. problems involving creation and
>containment of gigangtic energies).

Unfortunately, the hardware involved in accomplishing energy containment for 
our accelerator will up our ship dry mass.  A 10km long ion accelerator is 
not going to be terribly light as it is.  I originally was under the 
impression that we could keep the ship dry weight at 100,000 t o 250.000 
tones.  Sadly, it seems that we are putting more and more mass into the 
engine structure which exponentially increases our fuel/RM problems.  

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: My Two Bits Ain't Worth 1E-15 (Take 2)
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 16:00:00 PST


>From Brian:

>>Now about reversing the direction of the maser energy without terribly
>>complicating the design.  I wonder if we would be able to build and launch 
a
>>massive maser starship that simply harnesses the maser energy from Sol
>>and redirects it to the side of the Asimov facing TC.

>Yes, I wonder about that too, we haven't found a really good method yet.

>>You might not to believe what I'm going to say but I'll say it anyway.  We 

>>DON'T want to use the design I just described (it took me the entire time 
I
>>was writing this e-mail to figure that out for myself.  Do I feel dumb or
>>what?).

>I think this is what is making me confused. :|

Well, if I understood Kevin's maser scheme correctly, he needed 1E7 
individual masers to make his propulsion system work.  At the time that I 
was writing about this idea of a starship to redirect the maser beams, I had 
envisioned 1E7 masers connected to a really huge maser sail and launching 
the whole mess via masers at Sol.  If each maser only weighed 1 ton, that 
would be a hefty weight to push.  I thought we could find other, more 
efficient methods of stopping the Asimov than what I was proposing.  After 
Kevin's comment about using mirrors, I think that the maser decelerator 
starship that I was proposing is unnecessary.

By the way, Kevin, I believe, was worried about the a redirecting mirror 
gaining too much speed related to the Asimov during the redirecting of the 
maser beam.  That problem can be handled by putting some sort of weight on 
the mirror.

>>By the way, I found out last night that a Kevin's MARS idea seemed to be
>>using another kind of sail to reflect microwaves.  If this statement is
>>incorrect, please correct me.  I wander in the dark here.

>I'm not sure, another kind than what?

Sorry, another kind of reflection sail like a magsail or visible light sail.

>You should keep in mind that
>microwaves reflect on different surfaces that visible light does. It may
>even be possible to use a mesh of metal. Roughly said if the mesh-holes are
>smaller than the wave-length then it will reflect the waves. For 
microwaves,
>that means very small holes, but anyway, it may save some weight (CD's have
>small puts too).

What CD's are you referring?  Compact Disks?

>>Thinking about this rail launcher, we might want to carry a second rail
>>launcher anyway if we want to preload a fuel track for the trip home.  Or 
we
>>could anchor the Asimov to an asteroid and load the acceleration track 
while
>>using another shuttling system to explore TC.

>Could you explain to me what makes a rail launcher different from an 
ion-gun?

A rail launcher, to my knowledge, catapults solid, non-ionized masses.  An 
ion gun launches ionized particles.  Actually, a rail gun is made of the 
same magnets that an ion gun is (I think).  They could probably do the same 
jobs so there may be no real difference.

Peace and long life (through relativitic interstellar
travel).

Brian

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From: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
To: Brian Mansur 
CC: hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: My Two Bits Ain't Worth 1E-15 (Take 2)
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:15:36 -0500

I have to admit I usually don't follow the technical
stuff on this "list" too carefully because most of it
is above my head.  But I noticed some comments about
reflection.  I'm going to have to go back and read
some of the older mail more carefully.  From what
limited stuff I've read in the email, this sounds
something like an idea I read awhile back called
a "Solar Photon Thruster" or something like that
(which uses light instead of masers, but uses that
same double reflection idea)... I kept thinking about
mentioning it, but never did.  I'll have to see if
I can find the paper... might have some insights
for us.

David

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: David , hous0042 ,
        jim , KellySt ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 17:39:00 PST


Brian throwing in more money

>>Actually not is the plant is designed well.  Here in the U.S. we had a 
power
>>plant called three mile Island (bet you heard of it) where the operators 
were
>>runing it at full power with ot coolant, they even overroad all the 
emergency
>>anti-melt down system as they tried to engage.  The plant was designed so
>>well it showed no effects of its melt down.  The operators didn't even 
notice
>>it happening!  Without laboratory equipment you couldn't even detect an
>>effect outside the are. No significat radiation increasde (I.e. it always
>>radiated less than a runing coal plant).  Of course the reactor core was
>>ruined  (anyone for 4 billion $'s worth of radioative slag welded to the
>>insdide of a reactor case imbeddxed in 10 feet of concrete?).

>I didn't know they where thAt save, nice to know though.
>Here in Holland we have some guy who is turning an old nuclear reactor 
plant
>in a recreation palace.

>>You probably meen fusion.  Maybe eventually, but in the present political
>>climate not a chance.  Renewable  produces too little power and has too 
many
>>health and safty problems.  Utilities here are figuring on natural gas 
fueled
>>fuel cells as the next big wave in power plants.  Probably the basic power
>>for the next 40 years or more.

>Yes, I meant fusion. What kind of health problems does renewable energy
>have? Are solar-panels also dangerous?

We all know the answer to that last question.  NOT AT ALL!  I have a bone 
I'm picking a couple of paragraphs ahead if you care to read it.

>I've an idea and wonder if I'm the first one to think of it: Make a deep
>hole (several kilometres) and use the heat difference between down there 
and
>up here to make some energy.

Cool idea!  But as with  the recently lost multi-million dollar experimental 
tethered power satillite demonstrates, developing renewable energy sources 
only sounds easy in principle.  Reality (Murphy's Law) invariably makes you 
pay beaucoup bucks to fully develop new technologies into something usable. 
 Fusion power is another example.

Warning: political opinions incoming!  Its my own "I Have a Dream" speech so 
abort now if you don't want a sermon.


Therefore, I say we invest a $100 billion (100E9 American) dollars into 
developing automated robots that mine their own materials, refine them, and 
build their own factories to make more robots, solar panels, and various 
other widgets.  Then lets have them cover the every desert on the planet 
with solar panels to solve our world power problems.

While we're at it, lets put in a little more cash (you know, what we've 
saved since the robots have now erased our electric bill) into figuring out 
how to make these robots work on the moon and Mercury.  Then we'll have the 
robots cover those hunks of rock with more panels.  Then lets have our 
automated beauties use that power to atmospherically terraform Mars and 
Venus.  To do this they'll beam power to the atmospheric processing stations 
from the moon and Mercury via microwaves, of course.  When that is finished, 
we'll have them build dream homes for settlers to move into as soon as they 
care to develope a space shuttle that doesn't cost a year's tuition per 
pound of payload.

Once we've built a solar system wide civilization, we'll build 1E12 km^2 of 
panels to orbit the sun.  Then, after installing a maser array somewheres 
around that sun of ours, we'll set sail on a maser/ion rocket ship for Tau 
Ceti for a field trip and repeat the processe of space conquest over there. 
 God willing, of course.

Sounds unrealistic and impossible.  (Sound of maniacle laughter throughout 
the computer lab).  Just 500 years ago, no one had ever  traveled around the 
world.  Just three hundred years ago, the word "industrialization" had no 
meaning.  Just two hundred years ago, most people didn't know what 
electricity even was.  Just one hundred years ago, we couldn't fly (except 
like a stone or in balloons).  Just forty years ago (isn't this sentence 
structure getting boring) man could only suck vacuum in a laboratory.  Now 
we have a human in space twenty four hours a day, 90 minutes an orbit. 
 Thirty years ago, man had yet to walk on the moon.  Just last year Michael 
Jackson got married and if that can happen, ANYTHING can.

The point is that very little is impossible given time.  It really amazes me 
how fast humans have advanced as a race in just the last 2000 years.  Up 
till the Roman Empire, we were crawling at the blistering technological pace 
of maybe one really useful discovery a century (perhaps decade but who 
cares).

I'm going to sober up a bit  to reality and no I do not drink let alone get 
drunk.  The $100 billion price tag I mentioned for developing automated 
robot societies (that serve mankind of course) may be way underpriced.  Some 
technological problems are so complex that they simply aren't going to be 
solved no matter how much cash is thrown into working them.  Of course, any 
example that I cite could, at any time, be solved by someone perhaps working 
in their garage.  Still, I'm convinced that it is up to God just how far 
mankind will advance.  Which has turned out to be pretty far.  But that is 
just my opinion.

Okay, I've rambled on enough.  If you've read this far, thanks for your 
time.  All this before is just a dream I have.  But it could happen if we 
care to try to make it happen.  I'll shut up while leaving you with this 
thought that a friend of mine once said, "Dreams are wings for the soul." 
 Have a nice day.

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From: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
To: Brian Mansur 
CC: hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Summary A
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 18:50:25 -0500

Brian Mansur wrote:
> >I've an idea and wonder if I'm the first one to think of it: Make a deep
> >hole (several kilometres) and use the heat difference between down there
> and
> >up here to make some energy.
> 
> Cool idea!  But as with  the recently lost multi-million dollar experimental
> tethered power satillite demonstrates, developing renewable energy sources
> only sounds easy in principle.  Reality (Murphy's Law) invariably makes you

Whoops.  I responded to Brian, but forgot to "respond to
all".  I was just mentioning that using temperature
differences at various depths to produce power has already
been tried in the ocean, and works: it's called OTEC.

David

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: David , hous0042 ,
        jim , KellySt ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: >> Hummm.  There is one way your decelerator idea could really have an 
edge.
>>>  Since the decelerator wouldn't need enough power to decelerate itself 
and
>>> all of its fuel, just the light ship.  It may have a much better power 
to
>>> weight ratio!  The ship wouldn't need to decelerate the deceleration 
fuel.
>>> A microwave decelerator would be very compatable with Kevin's Microwave 
sail
>>> system.
>
>>I think this system is worth studying.  IF both parts leave Sol by maser
>>sail, and separate at the halfway point.  with the decellerator keeping
>>the maser sail (using it as an antenna converting the maser to elec) and
>>blasting (new twist) fusion fuel right down the Explorer's throat, i
>>think it might work.
>
>I've thought several times about this solution. I think the problem is that
>the thing cannot blast the stuff accurately enough to the mouth of the 
Asimov.
>I always assumed the fly-away part needed some control from people and thus 
>those were doomed to die flying at near c velocities between the stars.

I sincerely hope that Tim is vastly underestimating how computer 
sophistication will have advanced by 2050.  But his comment about the ions 
not hitting the mouth of the Asimov may be a concern for reasons other than 
computer control.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't those ions be affected 
by interstellar dust, gas, charged particles, and weak magnetic edies from 
the stars?  I wish I knew just how far we could keep an ion stream focused 
to with 1000 km, prefereable 10km.  Heavy ions, like iron, should be less 
perterbed no matter what kind of interference.

Warning: personal political views to follow.  Terminate your browsing unless 
you want to hear me gripe about our space program.

Okay,  I'm going ballistic here for a minute.  I vote we move the launch 
date to 2150 or later.  Why?  You probably know why.  It just doesn't seem 
that technology will be at all up to the task of sending a man to another 
planet  (let alone a starsystem) and bringing him back safely without 
unparalled, united, financial support from the nations of Earth.  And seeing 
how little people are investing into figuring out how make conquoring the 
final frontier cheaper  we aren't going to the stars any time soon.

By the way.  Did you guys hear that they vitually cancelled the X-34 
program?  The private companies determined it wouldn't be profitable.  Maybe 
true, but somebody has to work the problem of designing a more reasonably 
reusable LEO vehicle than the pitiful excuse we call the Space Shuttle.

Space is the future.  We stay on Earth, we eventually die of resource 
starvation (may take thousands of years but it will happen).  Too bad the 
American people won't get with the program.  Nothing great was ever done 
easily.

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: David , hous0042 ,
        jim , Kelly Starks ,
        lparker , rddesign ,
        stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Lasers and Scoops
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 18:36:00 PST


Brian Here.

In addition to my other questions, this one about our ionizing laser for a 
ramscoop is troubling.  How much power will it take to effectively cover an 
area of space, perpendicular to the direction of the ship, with a laser 
blanket beam that is strong enough to ionize iron?  If the numbers are too 
obscene for sensitive readers, how about for hydrogen?

By the way, I already know that shining your beams ahead of the ship like a 
flashlight won't work.  I though that we could run the lasers through some 
mirror aparatus.  Those mirrors would diverge and reflect the beam to shine 
radially from the ship's bow in all directions perpendicular to the ship's 
direction.  It would be like an ionizing blanket.

Aren't there more efficient ways to ionize something besides use of lasers. 
 I hear they are only 10% efficient.  Isn't that the same deal with masers?

Brainstorming

I just thought up of a way to make a wire mesh scoop (roughly 200 tons in 
overall weight as depicted in the Explorer design) and not have it collapse 
under 1g accel.  We could put a advance ion rocket, a small one perhaps 1 km 
long, in the center ahead of the open end of the scoop's cone.  It would be 
tethered to the ends of the wire mesh and accelerate at the same rate as the 
main engine of the Asimov.  Thus, it could act like a tug to keep the cone 
from collapsing from the g force.  Big problem: how to fuel it and give it 
enough RM without running into the same mass ratio problems we've had from 
the beginning.

Another idea that I have for this is to replace the tug with a mirror 
aparatus that is supported by  the photonic pressure from the ionizing laser 
beams.  The mirror would have to be angled so that the beams could be 
reflected into the aparatus.  My concern is whether or not we can generate 
the power to do this and still ionize some gas.  Maybe with power from a 
maser.  Tim, I think, suggested that we use a maser beam directly from Sol 
to ionize the fuel.

Another idea.  Build a REALLY tall tower to support the mesh cables.  I hate 
this idea because it will be very flimsy and add quite a bit of weight.

I toyed with the idea of rigging the scoop like a parachute.  The ions would 
be gathered into a catchbox at the bottom.  When it filled up, the box could 
be haulded up a 2000 km long cable to the fuel tanks.  Unfortunately, this 
idea creates more problems that it seems to solve.  True that, since the 
scoop is tethered to the ion drive up ahead, the scoop won't collapse. 
 Unfortunately, the drag is attrocious.  Also, the ion drive couldn't run 
half the time because the catchbox would be in the way.  And what happens if 
the cable breaks?  Urgh.

From popserver Sat Mar  2 01:46:48 GMT 1996
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	["1534" "Fri" "1" "March" "1996" "10:21:18" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "31" "Re: ; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 08:22:38 -0800 (PST)
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In-Reply-To: <199602291753.AA13245@student.utwente.nl>
Message-ID: 
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Timothy van der Linden 
cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
         zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re:  Kevin wrote:
> >I think this system is worth studying.  IF both parts leave Sol by maser 
> >sail, and separate at the halfway point.  with the decellerator keeping 
> >the maser sail (using it as an antenna converting the maser to elec) and 
> >blasting (new twist) fusion fuel right down the Explorer's throat, i 
> >think it might work.  

> Tim says:

> I've thought several times about this solution. I think the problem is that
> the thing cannot blast the stuff accurately enough to the mouth of the Asimov.
> I always assumed the fly-away part needed some control from people and thus
> those were doomed to die flying at near c velocities between the stars.

It doesn't need to be very accurate, a (relatively) small ram scoop could 
be used.  since the decellerator would be increasing the local denisty of 
hydrogen (actually it would be nice 2H and 3He or 6Li or 11B) a ram scoop 
of only a few kilometers could do the trick.  We'd only have to calculate 
the time difference between the decellerator portion and the crew section
then see what a reasonable sideways component to the decellarator's 
exhaust is.  then we have a good guess for the ram-scoop size.  

There is one reason I would not like this Solution, it throws away the 
big tanks and the lineac core, both of which could be very useful to the 
exploration crew.  But seeing as this seems to have a good chance of 
working, I suggest that we explore this option a little bit farther to 
see if we run into any violations of the Laws of physics.

Kevin

From popserver Sat Mar  2 01:46:50 GMT 1996
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	["1399" "Fri" "1" "March" "1996" "10:26:28" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "29" "Re: MARS" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Timothy van der Linden 
cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
         zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: MARS
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 10:26:28 -0600 (CST)



On Thu, 29 Feb 1996, Timothy van der Linden wrote:

> >> 2. I'm concerned about the size and weight of the maser sail.  Actually I'm 
> >> concerned about anything that has a diameter of a sizable moon.  Do you have 
> >> any good idea as to how much the sail will weigh?  After all, if it gets 
> >> much above say 100,000 tons (E5 tons), it will probably be too heavy to 
> >> carry enough RM to stop.
> >
> >The sail can have a large area to weight ratio, because it can have large 
> >(~2cm) holes in it.  Like chicken wire, only not as thick.  Because the 
> >microwaves have such a large wavelength, they won't even "see" the holes.
> 
> Eh, Kevin why do you think that micro waves are called MICRO waves? Assuming
> you see what I mean, I think that you agree that such big holes are not allowed.

Ah, Tim, i was asusuming that a good frequency for the maser would be 
21cm.  as the ship approached earth on it's return flight, it would have 
a gamma of about seven, so the wavelength would be reduced by seven times 
to about 3 cm.  All other portions of the trip would have longer wave- 
lengths, or at least, no significant change.  I always assumed that they 
were called _micro_ waves, because compared to radio waves (which can be 
in the 1 meter range), 21 cm seems very small indeed.

Microwaves have longer frequencies than IR, and i know that IR is about 
1 cm or shorter.

Kevin

From popserver Sat Mar  2 01:47:00 GMT 1996
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	["1919" "Fri" "1" "March" "1996" "10:52:10" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "40" "tentative hybrid design." "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: interstellar drive group , David@interworld.com,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: tentative hybrid design.
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 10:52:10 -0600 (CST)


Kevin sees Brian's "pocket change" and rasies one dollar.  ;)

I don't have much time right now, so this will be short.

Here's the idea I'm thinking of.

the ship starts off as a hybrid structure.  a MARS-like front end, with 
an explorer-like backend.

the ship accelerates out of Sol System with a simple maser sail.  The 
large fuel tanks (used by the MArs as RM, but used by explorer like 
fuel)  on the MARS keep us shielded from interstellar speed-induced 
radiation.  As we approach the halfway point, (speed ~ .9905 C)
the two ships separate.  the MARS begins converting the masers to 
electricity, cutting it's photon derived thrust to ~5 m/s^2 (1/2 G)
under computer control, the fuel is thrust out the back end so that it's 
speed is just under the MARS's velocity.  The velocity of the and mass of 
the exhaust can be tailored to the needs of the explorer, since there 
will be no humans aboard the MARS

Meanwhile, the explorer spreads a large ram scoop out *behind* itself.  
This scoop grabs the (already) ionized fuel, (no containers, just gas) 
and fuses it, redirecting the exhaust at the retreating MARS.  The 
redirected exhaust protects the crew sections from erosion by the fuel.

The MARS continues along toward TC, getting closer and closer to the 
speed of light.  just before it enters Tau Ceti itself, hundreds of small 
probes luanch away (at perpendicular velocities) get some slight bending 
from the star, and streak away to fly-by various other stars.  The big 
tanks (now empty) and the lineac core crash straight into the star, and 
make nary a splash.

The crew deploys self-replicating robots (under some human direction) to 
construct the return masers, and a simple manufacturing plant handles the 
return sail (much like chicken wire)  the explorer, after ditching it's 
fusion motor, sails off back toward Sol, where the original masers sit 
waiting for our return.  :)

Kevin

From popserver Sat Mar  2 01:47:12 GMT 1996
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Kevin C Houston 
Cc: interstellar drive group , David@interworld.com,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re: tentative hybrid design.
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 12:22:17 -0500

At 10:52 AM 3/1/96, Kevin C Houston wrote:
>Kevin sees Brian's "pocket change" and rasies one dollar.  ;)
>
>I don't have much time right now, so this will be short.
>
>Here's the idea I'm thinking of.
>
>the ship starts off as a hybrid structure.  a MARS-like front end, with
>an explorer-like backend.
>
>the ship accelerates out of Sol System with a simple maser sail.  The
>large fuel tanks (used by the MArs as RM, but used by explorer like
>fuel)  on the MARS keep us shielded from interstellar speed-induced
>radiation.  As we approach the halfway point, (speed ~ .9905 C)
>the two ships separate.  the MARS begins converting the masers to
>electricity, cutting it's photon derived thrust to ~5 m/s^2 (1/2 G)
>under computer control, the fuel is thrust out the back end so that it's
>speed is just under the MARS's velocity.  The velocity of the and mass of
>the exhaust can be tailored to the needs of the explorer, since there
>will be no humans aboard the MARS

Given that the Explorer will be slowing down, and the Mars accelerating,
this would have the fuel raceing ahead of the ship at up to near light
speeds.  Even if you could kill the fuel speed you'ld have accuracy
problems.  The ships wouldn't have time to separte much more than a half
light year, but the fuel could spend a long time drifting between.  Plus of
course this would be a tremendous amount of fuel to carry.  I'm not sure
you could carry that much fuel?

Might be better to put a Mini mars microwave sail on the droped ship and
have the main ship transmit power to it.

>Meanwhile, the explorer spreads a large ram scoop out *behind* itself.
>This scoop grabs the (already) ionized fuel, (no containers, just gas)
>and fuses it, redirecting the exhaust at the retreating MARS.  The
>redirected exhaust protects the crew sections from erosion by the fuel.

Neat trick.  How does the explorer catch fuel behind it and fire the exaust
ahead of it?  Be simpler to make the frount end a combined
scoop-motor-shield.  The scop would funnel anything it caught into the
bowel shaped reaction chanber shield.  The high drag (if you slow the fuel
down a lot), compresion/fusion drage, and reverse thrust could get a lot
deceleration.

>The MARS continues along toward TC, getting closer and closer to the
>speed of light.  just before it enters Tau Ceti itself, hundreds of small
>probes luanch away (at perpendicular velocities) get some slight bending
>from the star, and streak away to fly-by various other stars.  The big
>tanks (now empty) and the lineac core crash straight into the star, and
>make nary a splash.

At near light speed?  Wouldn't it at least cause a flare?

The probes wouldn't have any course change near the star.  Their velocity
would be too high (near light speed), but the mars would be a hell of a
good long range observatory.  Oh, I forgot about optical distortion due to
speed.

>The crew deploys self-replicating robots (under some human direction) to
>construct the return masers, and a simple manufacturing plant handles the
>return sail (much like chicken wire)  the explorer, after ditching it's
>fusion motor, sails off back toward Sol, where the original masers sit
>waiting for our return.  :)
>
>Kevin


I'ld really think that having the first stage Mars retransmit a microwave
beam back to the drop ship would solve a lot of your problems, and lighten
the ship mass.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Sat Mar  2 01:47:52 GMT 1996
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	["2351" "Fri" "1" "March" "1996" "12:27:00" "PST" "Brian Mansur" "bmansur@oc.edu" nil "50" "Re: ; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 10:27:12 -0800 (PST)
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From: Brian Mansur 
To: Kevin C Houston ,
        Timothy van der Linden 
Cc: David , jim ,
         KellySt , lparker ,
        rddesign , stevev ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: From Brian


> Kevin wrote:
>>>I think this system is worth studying.  IF both parts leave Sol by maser
>>>sail, and separate at the halfway point.  with the decellerator keeping
>>>the maser sail (using it as an antenna converting the maser to elec) and
>>>blasting (new twist) fusion fuel right down the Explorer's throat, i
>>>think it might work.

>> Tim says:

>> I've thought several times about this solution. I think the problem is 
that
>> the thing cannot blast the stuff accurately enough to the mouth of the
Asimov.
>> I always assumed the fly-away part needed some control from people and 
thus
>> those were doomed to die flying at near c velocities between the stars.

>Kevin says:

>It doesn't need to be very accurate, a (relatively) small ram scoop could
>be used.  since the decellerator would be increasing the local denisty of
>hydrogen (actually it would be nice 2H and 3He or 6Li or 11B) a ram scoop
>of only a few kilometers could do the trick.  We'd only have to calculate
>the time difference between the decellerator portion and the crew section
>then see what a reasonable sideways component to the decellarator's
>exhaust is.  then we have a good guess for the ram-scoop size.

As I said elsewhere, I'd be worried about just how much the ion stream being 
fired at the Asimov would diverge.  We've got to figure that we are trying 
to keep things focused for several hundred AUs.  The solar system is only 30 
AU. out to Neptune.

>There is one reason I would not like this Solution, it throws away the
>big tanks and the lineac core, both of which could be very useful to the
>exploration crew.  But seeing as this seems to have a good chance of
>working, I suggest that we explore this option a little bit farther to
>see if we run into any violations of the Laws of physics.

Who says you have to throw away your ion drive or the tanks.  Even empty 
tanks could make for added shielding during the interstellar cruise.  And if 
the tanks are damaged en route, they shouldn't be too difficult to patch up. 
 Having an ion drive for the trip would let us collect the ion particles 
from the declerator and throw them right back toward TC for added thrust. 
 Then when we get to TC we can use what little RM we have on had to find a 
small solid object to fill our tanks with more RM.  Then we go cruising 
around TC.  

From popserver Sat Mar  2 01:48:01 GMT 1996
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From: Brian Mansur 
To: interstellar drive group , David ,
        Kevin C Houston ,
         jim , KellySt ,
         kgstar , lparker ,
        rddesign , Steve VanDevender 
To: "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: RE: tentative hybrid design.
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 96 13:03:00 PST


>From Brain.

>Kevin sees Brian's "pocket change" and rasies one dollar.  ;)

Brian calls

>I don't have much time right now, so this will be short.

Know the feeling

>Here's the idea I'm thinking of.

>the ship starts off as a hybrid structure.  a MARS-like front end, with
>an explorer-like backend.

Sounds like a dream I had last night.  I'll explain in a minute.

>the ship accelerates out of Sol System with a simple maser sail.  The
>large fuel tanks (used by the MArs as RM, but used by explorer like
>fuel)  on the MARS keep us shielded from interstellar speed-induced
>radiation.  As we approach the halfway point, (speed ~ .9905 C)
>the two ships separate.  the MARS begins converting the masers to
>electricity, cutting it's photon derived thrust to ~5 m/s^2 (1/2 G)
>under computer control, the fuel is thrust out the back end so that it's
>speed is just under the MARS's velocity.  The velocity of the and mass of
>the exhaust can be tailored to the needs of the explorer, since there
>will be no humans aboard the MARS

This sounds something like the scheme I just worked out last night.  I 
thought someone might beat me to the punch.  Later I'll send a formal 
description listed as another hybrid design.

The problem I see with this design is the tremendous initial launch weight 
which can be compensated for by accelerating more slowly than 1g as planned. 
 The crew will have to live in a centrifuge with a floor tilted to take into 
acount the vectorial push of the acceleration.  But if we accelerate at say 
..036g, this shouldn't be too much to compensate for.  .

>Meanwhile, the explorer spreads a large ram scoop out *behind* itself.
>This scoop grabs the (already) ionized fuel, (no containers, just gas)
>and fuses it, redirecting the exhaust at the retreating MARS.  The
>redirected exhaust protects the crew sections from erosion by the fuel.

Kgstar (what's his real name?) was wondering how you are going to get the 
ionized fuel from a catch scoop trailing behind you.  Could we use a 
solonoid collector generated by the ion drive.  This would increase the 
scoop size because the magnetic field that flows toward the decelerator 
would tend to push the ions to the side.  On the other hand, since a wire 
mesh collector several kilometers wide can be made to weigh only a matter of 
grams, the extra weight shouldn't be a problem.  By the way, I'm assuming 
that a ram scoop can be made out of the same wire mesh that the starwisp 
design uses.  Since that is several km across and only 15 grams heavy, I'm 
using it as a model.  I hope it is a valid one..

>The MARS continues along toward TC, getting closer and closer to the
>speed of light.  just before it enters Tau Ceti itself, hundreds of small
>probes luanch away (at perpendicular velocities) get some slight bending
>from the star, and streak away to fly-by various other stars.  The big
>tanks (now empty) and the lineac core crash straight into the star, and
>make nary a splash.

>The crew deploys self-replicating robots (under some human direction) to
>construct the return masers, and a simple manufacturing plant handles the
>return sail (much like chicken wire)  the explorer, after ditching it's
>fusion motor, sails off back toward Sol, where the original masers sit
>waiting for our return.  :)

Why not just build a mirror to reflect the maser from Sol back to the 
Asimov.  Just put this mirror in the Kupier, put some rockets on it for 
course corrections if the beam or the mirrors start to drift away from lock. 
 Weight down the mirror with a lot of fuel to keep the maser beam from 
pushing it off to deep space.  If it can be made heavy enough, it could 
perhaps be used to stop a later mission.     This is only a rough 
description of a more detailed design proposal I have for the reflecting 
mirror.  I have to go to physics class (we're studying mirrors of all 
things), but I will try to get it typed up (and illustrated with ASCII art 
if there are no objections) before 5 PM.  At the latest it will take till 
10:30.   

From popserver Sat Mar  2 01:49:56 GMT 1996
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: MARS
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 23:05:30 +0100

>
>>>4. Has anyone figured out just how long the accelerator needs to be since 
>it
>>>has to be linear?  More to the point, can we keep the linear accelerator
>>>short enough and, therefore, light enough to produce relativistic exhaust
>>>velocities?
>
>>Some long time ago I figured out that it would probably be too long, the
>>formulas are not so easy to integrate so at that time I used some repeating
>>summation. I assumed that we would not have a constant acceleration of the
>>mass, but a constant power input. This means that initially it accelerates
>>fast but at the end much slower. Relativistic effects do make this
>>difference worse.
>>But as Kevin corrected me a week ago, why not use a torus instead a lineac?
>>You seem to have a reason for not liking a torus, could you tell me what
>>that reason is?
>
>A few nights ago I read in an old LIT newsletter about someone noting that a 
>torus would cancel the acceleration gained by pushing against the ions.  My 
>admitantly limited understanding of vectors made me think about how you 
>can't push against your sides and expect to go forward.

What happens is that the particles are pushed at their sides but also at
their backs.

>I hope that I am very wrong because a torus design makes for nice stacking 
>of a potentially flimsy accelerator.   What I mean is has anyone thought 
>about what it would be like, structurally, to push what amounts to a 10 km 
>long acceleration tower at 10 m/s^2?  For that matter, speaking of other 
>starship structures, what would it be like to push a ram scoop (a really 
>tall wire mesh cone) at the same rate?

It's quite certain that the one who wrote that was wrong, because there are
many torroidal accelerators in the world. Of course a torroidal accelerator
does need much more energy than a linear accelerator, because besides
pushing the particles forward it continously has to push the particles aside.

>>I think we should not worry about that too much, for me this is just a
>>problem for the gigantic-energy stack (i.e. problems involving creation and
>>containment of gigangtic energies).
>
>Unfortunately, the hardware involved in accomplishing energy containment for 
>our accelerator will up our ship dry mass.  A 10km long ion accelerator is 
>not going to be terribly light as it is.  I originally was under the 
>impression that we could keep the ship dry weight at 100,000 t o 250.000 
>tones.  Sadly, it seems that we are putting more and more mass into the 
>engine structure which exponentially increases our fuel/RM problems.  

Say one metre weighs 100 kg (including magnets and all) then 10 km=1000 tons.
That may be acceptable, but then again 100 kg/metre is a very wild guess.

But how much will a 10 by 10 km sail weigh? Say 1 square metre=100 grams, then 
1E8 m^2=10,000 tons.

You may think 100 grams is too much, but the sail has to drag the whole
ship, so it should be quite strong.


Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: MARS
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 23:05:35 +0100

>> Eh, Kevin why do you think that micro waves are called MICRO waves? Assuming
>> you see what I mean, I think that you agree that such big holes are not
allowed.
>
>Ah, Tim, i was asusuming that a good frequency for the maser would be 
>21cm.  as the ship approached earth on it's return flight, it would have 
>a gamma of about seven, so the wavelength would be reduced by seven times 
>to about 3 cm.  All other portions of the trip would have longer wave- 
>lengths, or at least, no significant change.  I always assumed that they 
>were called _micro_ waves, because compared to radio waves (which can be 
>in the 1 meter range), 21 cm seems very small indeed.

Damn, you are right (almost). I checked a dictionary and it says microwaves
is EM-radiation with wavelengths between 1 cm and 1 mm.

>Microwaves have longer frequencies than IR, and i know that IR is about 
>1 cm or shorter.

You are almost right again, <1 mm.

I'm sorry for my wrong correction. So indeed a reflecting mesh could have
holes with a size of about a centimetre.


Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: My Two Bits Ain't Worth 1E-15 (Take 2)
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 23:05:39 +0100

>By the way, Kevin, I believe, was worried about the a redirecting mirror 
>gaining too much speed related to the Asimov during the redirecting of the 
>maser beam.  That problem can be handled by putting some sort of weight on 
>the mirror.

Yes, but then that weight has to be accelerated too during the starting
phase. So while gaining something on the one end, one looses something on
the other end.

>>>By the way, I found out last night that a Kevin's MARS idea seemed to be
>>>using another kind of sail to reflect microwaves.  If this statement is
>>>incorrect, please correct me.  I wander in the dark here.
>
>>I'm not sure, another kind than what?
>
>Sorry, another kind of reflection sail like a magsail or visible light sail.

A magsail does not really reflect anything (I think). To get energy it uses
the magnetic fields of the fast moving particles that fly by. That gained
energy can then be use again to make a opposite magnetic field, so that the
ship is pushed away. Of course that energy could also be used for another
kind of propulsion.

Maser and light sails do reflect Electro Magnetic radiation. The kind of EM
radiaton does not really matter, only some are easier to reflect than others.

>>You should keep in mind that
>>microwaves reflect on different surfaces that visible light does. It may
>>even be possible to use a mesh of metal. Roughly said if the mesh-holes are
>>smaller than the wave-length then it will reflect the waves. For 
>microwaves,
>>that means very small holes, but anyway, it may save some weight (CD's have
>>small puts too).
>
>What CD's are you referring?  Compact Disks?

Yes, but forget it, microwaves seem to have a larger wavelenght than I
thought (see the MARS letter to Kevin).

>>Could you explain to me what makes a rail launcher different from an 
>ion-gun?
>
>A rail launcher, to my knowledge, catapults solid, non-ionized masses.  An 
>ion gun launches ionized particles.  Actually, a rail gun is made of the 
>same magnets that an ion gun is (I think).  They could probably do the same 
>jobs so there may be no real difference.

Yes, non-ionized masses could only be accelerated by magnetic fields, I
think the accelerating charged particles has a much better efficiency.


Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: I sincerely hope that Tim is vastly underestimating how computer 
>sophistication will have advanced by 2050.  But his comment about the ions 
>not hitting the mouth of the Asimov may be a concern for reasons other than 
>computer control.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't those ions be affected 
>by interstellar dust, gas, charged particles, and weak magnetic edies from 
>the stars?  I wish I knew just how far we could keep an ion stream focused 
>to with 1000 km, prefereable 10km.  Heavy ions, like iron, should be less 
>perterbed no matter what kind of interference.

Two things:
- We could shoot negative and positive charged particles so that the total
beam will be neutral and thus not fade away completely.
- Or we could not use particles but instead EM-radiation (eg. a MASER)

>Okay,  I'm going ballistic here for a minute.  I vote we move the launch 
>date to 2150 or later.  Why?  You probably know why.  It just doesn't seem 
>that technology will be at all up to the task of sending a man to another 
>planet  (let alone a starsystem) and bringing him back safely without 
>unparalled, united, financial support from the nations of Earth.  And seeing 
>how little people are investing into figuring out how make conquoring the 
>final frontier cheaper  we aren't going to the stars any time soon.

I've an idea too, lets hybernize this discussion and defreeze it after a
century. No, without irony, a while ago I suggested something similar, but
the problem is that we cannot predict AT ALL what would be possible then, so
get back to Earth (figuratively) and try to use what we have.

>Space is the future.  We stay on Earth, we eventually die of resource 
>starvation (may take thousands of years but it will happen).

I don't think it will happen. Yeah ofcourse, billions will die (not just
because of old age) but thousands will survive (probably the ones with the
most money and the smartest brains)

>Too bad the 
>American people won't get with the program.  Nothing great was ever done 
>easily.

Maybe Europe will take over after becoming united.


Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Summary A
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 23:06:02 +0100

>> Cool idea!  But as with  the recently lost multi-million dollar experimental
>> tethered power satillite demonstrates, developing renewable energy sources
>> only sounds easy in principle.  Reality (Murphy's Law) invariably makes you
>
>Whoops.  I responded to Brian, but forgot to "respond to
>all".  I was just mentioning that using temperature
>differences at various depths to produce power has already
>been tried in the ocean, and works: it's called OTEC.

Ah, I never really believed that I would be the one who thought of it first.

Tim

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: My Two Bits Ain't Worth 1E-15 (Take 2)
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 96 16:42:00 PST


>From Brian

Brian Says
>>By the way, Kevin, I believe, was worried about the a redirecting mirror
>>gaining too much speed related to the Asimov during the redirecting of the 

>>maser beam.  That problem can be handled by putting some sort of weight 
>>on the mirror.

Tim Says
>Yes, but then that weight has to be accelerated too during the starting
>phase. So while gaining something on the one end, one looses something on
>the other end.

Just accelerate at a slower rate.


>

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From: "L. Parker" 
To: Kevin C Houston 
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, Nick@panda1.demon.co.uk,
        stevev@efn.org, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,
         wulfgar@destin.gulfnet.com, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re: tentative hybrid design.
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 17:52:13 -0600

At 10:52 AM 3/1/96 -0600, you wrote:
>

>the ship starts off as a hybrid structure.  a MARS-like front end, with 
>an explorer-like backend.
>
>the ship accelerates out of Sol System with a simple maser sail.  The 
>large fuel tanks...



>The crew deploys self-replicating robots (under some human direction) to 
>construct the return masers, and a simple manufacturing plant handles the 
>return sail 

Great! Only one suggestion though, Why not do the same thing TOTALLY
automated and construct masers at TC for a follow on manned expedition?
Other than the inevitable time delay of 15 years or so, this would simplify
the manned expedition enormously. (Course, our automated agents MIGHT
accidentally devour a native species because it didn't recognize it, but
hey, AI is coming along nicely.)

Lee Parker
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: interstellar drive group , David ,
        hous0042 , KellySt ,
         kgstar , lparker ,
        rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
To: zkulpa 
Subject: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 96 16:57:00 PST


>From Brian
March 1, 1996

Here it is: the detailed design I promised (as detailed as I can make it at 
the moment anyway).  But first: does the "interstellar drive group" 
selection that I now see on my address book  now account for everyone in the 
discussion team?  Okay, on with the show.

Note that this is my first draft.  The lab is about to close and I have a 
lot more ideas to cover but they may have to wait a bit.  Things like sail 
shielding and mirror array design are among them.  Sill I'm going to send 
what I've got to let you all have some fun ripping it apart :)

MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (Kevin already submitted the first this morning)

Total mission time: 50+ years
Pathfinder(s) mission flight time: 40+ years
Asimov flight time: 24+ years
Asimov exploration phase time: Undetermined

ASSUMPTIONS:
     It is assumed for this mission plan that a high degree of robotic 
automation has already made possible the production of at least 1E18 W 
needed to power 1E7 masers without much human supervision.  It is also 
assumed that this maser array is totally dedicated to the mission and that 
the beam will be left throughout the mission.

PHASE 1:  LAUNCH OF PATHFINDERS
     At least one heavy pathfider vessel will be sent before the Asimov 
using  maser sail to reach a terminal velocity of 1/3c.  Pathfinder carries 
several thousand, heavy duty, heavy weight, individually targetable, 
disassembled mirror arrays that will be deployed roughly 30 years later near 
TC (see reflectors in an upcoming posting).  These arrays (probably making 
an effective 1000 km+ wide reflector) will reflect maser energy back to the 
Asimov for the deceleration phase.  The Pathfinder may or may not have a 
crew depending on the level of automation available at the time of launch. 
 Also, it may or may not carry emergency supplies for the Asimov should they 
choose to match speed and dock during the deceleration phase.

PHASE 2: LAUNCH OF THE ASIMOV
     The  Asimov is maser pushed to a high %c terminal velocity.  It is 
hoped that the maser propulsion system will be efficient enough to push the 
Asimov to a speed at which the effects of time dialation will be useful to 
the crew.  At the very least, a max speed of .75c is assumed here.
     This ship will consist of an ion drive for in system shuttling around 
TC.  It will also carry the exploration team and their supplies for the 
mission.  Among the supplies already mentioned in other discusions are seed 
robots.  They will be used to start a robot workforce that will help 
construct, among other things, a precision mirror array to reflect the maser 
energy from Sol back to the Asimov's maser sail when the exploration phase 
is completed.

PHASE 3: DECELERATION OF THE ASIMOV
     The exact process has many variations.  If there are several 
Pathfinders, each, the one closest to the Asimov will deploy its reflector 
array and then move to a safe range from the beam path.  The array will 
enter the beam path and redirect the maser energy back to the Asimov.  The 
Asimov, of course, will have turned its sail around (a slow and delicate 
process).  It will also have moved slightly to the side the maser beam 
coming from Sol to prevent blocking of the array.
     Some method of periodic or even continuous course correction on both 
the Asimov's part and the array's will be required to correct for the angle 
at which the maser beam must be reflected.  The Asimov may simply angle its 
sail slightly with the edge furtherest from the Sol to array beam tilted 
back toward Sol.  The array will have to use built in rockets, or else tilt 
from time to time in the proper direction to allow vectorial force to push 
it back into the center of the beam.
     Now, assuming that the doplar effect will cause problems with 
reflection of the maser beam, another Pathfinder could deploy it's array and 
continue the decelation process.  Note that I don't know if  the most 
efficient thing that the Asimov can do with the redirected maser beam will 
be to simply bounce it back to space or to power a ion drive.   The exhaust 
from an ion drive would make for nice shielding against large particles.
     One final note.  As the Asimov and Pathfinder speeds reach equilibrium 
they have the option of docking (assuming the deceleration of the Asimov 
brought it close to the Pathfinder when speed equilibrium was reached.  At 
this point, any crew on the Pathfinder could cross over.  Note that the 
Asimov could dock with only one Pathfinder.

PHASE 4: SYSTEM EXPLORATION/CONSTRUCTION OF MASER REFLECTOR
     The Asimov enters the Tau Ceti star system's Kupier Belt.  At this 
point it disassembles its sail and starts scouting for a low gravity, metal 
rich Kupier body that is not too far from the maser beam path.  Once such a 
body is located, the seed robots are deployed to begin a robot community. 
 Since the Kupier body will be too far away from Tau Ceti for solar energy 
collection, it is assumed that the robots will be powered by fusion reactor 
that must be brought along (in addition to the fuel).  Depending on the 
automation technology at the time of launch, these robots will at least be 
responsible for construction of a mirror platform needed for reacceleration 
to Sol.
     The Asimov leaves the Kupier outpost to continue its exploration of the 
star system.  Whatever number of crew is needed to oversee construction 
stays behind.  As the maser reflector nears completion.  The array must be 
somehow weighted down to keep it from flying off.  Keeping it tethered to 
something like the weight of Phoboes would be nice but then Sol would have 
to track it to keep the beam on target.  It will probably be better to 
simply give it enough weight to prevent it from blowing away too fast while 
reaccelerating the Asimov.  I only hope that the required weight won't be 
beyond out ability to put to space.  Also, this entire array will have to be 
able to maintain its position inside the maser beam which means some 
powerful rockets or some angling of the array as mentioned in Phase 3.

PHASE 5: REACCELERATION OF THE ASIMOV/RETURN TO SOL
     This final phase is pretty self-explanitory.  The Asimov's sail (having 
been patched up from the flight to TC we hope) is redeployed is manuvered 
into the path of the redirected maser beam.  Again, it is hoped that a high 
terminal velocity will be possible.  As the Asimov nears Sol, the array is 
turned around and the masers focus straight on to the tatered sail.  Mission 
ends as the Asimov pulls into the local Starbase.  

From popserver Sat Mar  2 17:34:50 GMT 1996
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	["2852" "Sat" "2" "March" "1996" "13:52:53" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "59" "Re: ; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 04:54:18 -0800 (PST)
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: 
>
>> Kevin wrote:
>> >I think this system is worth studying.  IF both parts leave Sol by maser 
>> >sail, and separate at the halfway point.  with the decellerator keeping 
>> >the maser sail (using it as an antenna converting the maser to elec) and 
>> >blasting (new twist) fusion fuel right down the Explorer's throat, i 
>> >think it might work.  
>
>> Tim says:
>
>> I've thought several times about this solution. I think the problem is that
>> the thing cannot blast the stuff accurately enough to the mouth of the
Asimov.
>> I always assumed the fly-away part needed some control from people and thus
>> those were doomed to die flying at near c velocities between the stars.
>
>It doesn't need to be very accurate, a (relatively) small ram scoop could 
>be used.  since the decellerator would be increasing the local denisty of 
>hydrogen (actually it would be nice 2H and 3He or 6Li or 11B) a ram scoop 
>of only a few kilometers could do the trick.  We'd only have to calculate 
>the time difference between the decellerator portion and the crew section
>then see what a reasonable sideways component to the decellarator's 
>exhaust is.  then we have a good guess for the ram-scoop size.  

>From now on I call the part of the ship that flies away from the original
Asimov the "lost-end".

Hmm, the design get more complex by the minute, we are now using beamed
energy for a lineac onboard during the acceleration, then during
deceleration we use stored energy and that same lineac to fire on the
Asimov, the Asimov catches it with a scoop, then we have to use the
particles to decelerate (magsail or just plain collision?)

- Beamed energy and an "antenna" (or EM-sail?)
- A Lineac or torroidal accelerator
- Onboard fuel for the deceleration part (then in the lost-end)
- A Scoop that bend the path of particles moving at high velocities.
- A magsail?

But to come back on the scoop, can it bend the pathway of the particles
enough? I could imagine that the particles cannot be bend enough when
approaching with high velocities. But then still, I remember me "fighting"
for my retro-mirror design: Besides that the mirror itself would diffuse the
EM-waves a lot of discussion was there about directing the mirror itself
(ask Kelly).
This does not mean that 'I' do think that directing the beam is a problem.
But ofcourse the lost-end is much more complicated than a retro-mirror.

>There is one reason I would not like this Solution, it throws away the 
>big tanks and the lineac core, both of which could be very useful to the 
>exploration crew.  But seeing as this seems to have a good chance of 
>working, I suggest that we explore this option a little bit farther to 
>see if we run into any violations of the Laws of physics.

Yes, this is indeed a big problem, especially because we already have such a
complicated ship.

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Cold fusion
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 1996 13:52:59 +0100

Hello Kelly,

I searched for some more info about cold fusion. I recommend the following
sites:

Cold Fusion Technology Homepage
http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/rei/CFdir/CFhome.html

and

Physics Around the World: Cold Fusion
http://physics.mcgill.ca/physics-services/physics_cf.html

These are really informative and well organized pages.

Enjoy the reading,


Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: My Two Bits Ain't Worth 1E-15 (Take 2)
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 1996 16:33:55 +0100

>Brian Says
>>>By the way, Kevin, I believe, was worried about the a redirecting mirror
>>>gaining too much speed related to the Asimov during the redirecting of the 
>
>>>maser beam.  That problem can be handled by putting some sort of weight 
>>>on the mirror.
>
>Tim Says
>>Yes, but then that weight has to be accelerated too during the starting
>>phase. So while gaining something on the one end, one looses something on
>>the other end.
>
Brian Says
>Just accelerate at a slower rate.

Tims Says
That means a longer trip and if we want the same end-velocity, the energy
has to be beamed over a longer path.
And we are not talking about a little bit more weight, assuming fusion fuel
we should at least count with a ship that is 5 times heavier (assuming
end-velocity of less than 0.3c).


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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Lasers and Scoops
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 1996 16:34:00 +0100

>In addition to my other questions, this one about our ionizing laser for a 
>ramscoop is troubling.  How much power will it take to effectively cover an 
>area of space, perpendicular to the direction of the ship, with a laser 
>blanket beam that is strong enough to ionize iron?  If the numbers are too 
>obscene for sensitive readers, how about for hydrogen?

Yeah, sound really troubling isn't it? I pointed that out once, even not so
long ago a described what a maser beaming array would look like. I also
pointed out the we probably wouldn't need any shielding anymore because all
debris in our way would have been blasted away long before we would arrive.
I should mention though that this would only be true for the starting phase,
where the beam is still enough compact.

The numbers you are asking about, do depend on:
- the weight of the ship
- the final velocity
- the fading of the beam
- the accuracy of directing the beam
- the size of the receiver on the ship
- the velocity of the beam (c for EM-radiation, ? for Hydrogen)

Shortly said we don't know most of these factors accurately
(understatement), so we can only calculate minimum numbers. Keep in mind
that we are talking about diametres so things have the tendency to behave
quadratic instead of linear. I think that at best we can assume an
efficiency of 10%.

>By the way, I already know that shining your beams ahead of the ship like a 
>flashlight won't work.  I though that we could run the lasers through some 
>mirror aparatus.  Those mirrors would diverge and reflect the beam to shine 
>radially from the ship's bow in all directions perpendicular to the ship's 
>direction.  It would be like an ionizing blanket.
>
>Aren't there more efficient ways to ionize something besides use of lasers. 

No, only EM-radiation can do the trick. Maybe in the far futere there will
be other methods but not not.

Tim

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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Timothy van der Linden 
cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
         zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: MARS
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 16:01:18 -0600 (CST)



On Fri, 1 Mar 1996, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
> Damn, you are right (almost). I checked a dictionary and it says microwaves
> is EM-radiation with wavelengths between 1 cm and 1 mm.

According to "Physical Chemistry" fourth ed., by Ira N. Levine. Pub by 
Mc-graw-Hill, inc. 1995 pg 680:  

Microwaves are EM-radiation with wavelengths between 10 cm and 1mm.  
well, it seems I can't use 21 cm radiation... oh well, I'm sure there's a 
quiet portion of the spectrum somewhere in the microwave region.

> 
> >Microwaves have longer frequencies than IR, and i know that IR is about 
> >1 cm or shorter.
> 
> You are almost right again, <1 mm.

agreed. IR <1mm.

> 
> I'm sorry for my wrong correction. So indeed a reflecting mesh could have
> holes with a size of about a centimetre.
> 

Sorry too. But I think that mesh size should be ~1mm don't forget that 
7:1 doppler shift.  

Kevin


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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Timothy van der Linden 
cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
         zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Cold fusion
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 17:42:54 -0600 (CST)

On Sat, 2 Mar 1996, Timothy van der Linden wrote:

> Cold Fusion Technology Homepage
> http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/rei/CFdir/CFhome.html
>
> Physics Around the World: Cold Fusion
> http://physics.mcgill.ca/physics-services/physics_cf.html
>
> These are really informative and well organized pages.
> Enjoy the reading,
> Timothy
> 
Wow!  if even half of this is true, things are going to change a lot.

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 19:50:11 +0100

>Here it is: the detailed design I promised (as detailed as I can make it at 
>the moment anyway).  But first: does the "interstellar drive group" 
>selection that I now see on my address book  now account for everyone in the 
>discussion team?  Okay, on with the show.

This "kgstar " address is just Kelly at his work.
You missed "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu"
Why didn't you just copy the list I sent you a while ago?

>MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (Kevin already submitted the first this morning)
>
>Total mission time: 50+ years

Seems quite long, can it also be done in a shorter time?

>PHASE 1:  LAUNCH OF PATHFINDERS
>     At least one heavy pathfider vessel will be sent before the Asimov 
>using  maser sail to reach a terminal velocity of 1/3c.  Pathfinder carries 
>several thousand, heavy duty, heavy weight, individually targetable, 
>disassembled mirror arrays that will be deployed roughly 30 years later near 
>TC (see reflectors in an upcoming posting).  These arrays (probably making 
>an effective 1000 km+ wide reflector) will reflect maser energy back to the 
>Asimov for the deceleration phase.  The Pathfinder may or may not have a 
>crew depending on the level of automation available at the time of launch. 
> Also, it may or may not carry emergency supplies for the Asimov should they 
>choose to match speed and dock during the deceleration phase.

How are you going to stop this pathfinder, or are the mirrors moving towards
TC with v=1/3c ?
And in advance to your next letter, do the mirrors focus the maser-beam or
do the reflect it "straight" back?

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: MARS
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 19:50:06 +0100

>According to "Physical Chemistry" fourth ed., by Ira N. Levine. Pub by 
>Mc-graw-Hill, inc. 1995 pg 680:  
>
>Microwaves are EM-radiation with wavelengths between 10 cm and 1mm.  
>well, it seems I can't use 21 cm radiation... oh well, I'm sure there's a 
>quiet portion of the spectrum somewhere in the microwave region.

Yes, in the graph I looked, all wavelengths from 1E-15 to 1E5 are shown,
along that line the names are mentioned mostly without precise borders, only
the main names (radio, infrared, visible, ultraviolet, Xray, gamma) have
precise borders. Micro waves are indeed the smallest waves of the radiowaves.

>>I'm sorry for my wrong correction. So indeed a reflecting mesh could have
>>holes with a size of about a centimetre.
> 
>Sorry too. But I think that mesh size should be ~1mm don't forget that 
>7:1 doppler shift.  

Yes, assuming 7:1. At least then we won't have trouble with flies ;)

Timothy

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
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Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 19:01:33 -0500

> >> Let do a quick calculation about the acceleration needed:
> >> v=x*t  a=v*t --> a=v^2/x = 1E16/100 = 1E14 m/s^2
> >
>>Ouch, 10 trillion G's!!!!

> Don't worry, you aren't in these containers. What may 
> be a problem though, is that the containers cannot 
> resist such forces and thus will break down
> during acceleration (Imagine several kilograms of debris 
> breaking up while moving 1/3 c in a very narrow tube).

I'ld rather not thank you.  ;)

> >A complex issue.  Can you tollerate electronics no better than 10 year old
> >ones?  Thats a 100 fold decrease in capacity?

> The capacity will come to an end, and if not, how fast 
> should processors be?
> We can savely assume that in 20 years every one will 
> have a supercomputer of today with several Gbytes of 
> memory. 

Well history of home computers would suggest that.  And we are talking about
a major research project here.

> But do we need that much? I know I'm on a hot issue 
> here, 20 years ago no one did see the need for computers 
> either.
> But now that we know what we can do with computers 
> we can make a better estimation of what we need as a 
> minimum. I've read that the Space Shuttle has less than
> 1 Mb of memory (256 Kb?) so that would give us a idea 
> of what we need and what we want.

Actually the shuttles data limits were a constant problem, even safty
problem.

> >Actually not is the plant is designed well.  Here in the U.S. we had a
powe
> >plant called three mile Island (bet you heard of it) where the operators
were
> >runing it at full power with ot coolant, they even overroad all the
emergency
> >anti-melt down system as they tried to engage.  The plant was designed so
> >well it showed no effects of its melt down.  The operators didn't even
notice
> >it happening!  Without laboratory equipment you couldn't even detect an
> >effect outside the are. No significat radiation increasde (I.e. it always
> >radiated less than a runing coal plant).  Of course the reactor core was
> >ruined  (anyone for 4 billion $'s worth of radioative slag welded to the
> >insdide of a reactor case imbeddxed in 10 feet of concrete?).

>I didn't know they where thAt save, nice to know though.
> Here in Holland we have some guy who is turning an old 
> nuclear reactor plant in a recreation palace.

??  I never thought they were that interesting.

Kelly

>You probably meen fusion.  Maybe eventually, but in the present political
>climate not a chance.  Renewable  produces to little power and has too many
>health and safty problems.  Utilities here are figuring on natural gas
fueled
>fuel cells as the next big wave in power plants.  Probably the basic power
>for the next 40 years or more.

Yes, I meant fusion. What kind of health problems does renewable energy
have? Are solar-panels also dangerous?
I've an idea and wonder if I'm the first one to think of it: Make a deep
hole (several kilometres) and use the heat difference between down there and
up here to make some energy.

From popserver Mon Mar  4 01:00:10 GMT 1996
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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: your mail = Greenhouse
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 19:01:21 -0500


>> Hmm, strange, these Australians seem to worry a lot 
>> about it. I also heard that at times there isn't any ozon 
>> at all at the antarctic region (or at least much less 
>> than during other times).
>> I guess its time for me to have another look in the archives...

The hole has been in the news a lot, and Aussies seem to spend their lofe at
the beach now a days so theyt would be concerned about what they hear (false
or not).  

Yes, Ozon in antarctic drops quit a bit in winter.  Amount varies a lot thou.

Kelly

From popserver Mon Mar  4 01:00:13 GMT 1996
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Message-ID: <960303190152_339908733@mail02.mail.aol.com>
From: KellySt@aol.com
To: bmansur@oc.edu, David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, stevev@efn.org,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 19:01:53 -0500

>>You probably meen fusion.  Maybe eventually, but in the present political
>>climate not a chance.  Renewable  produces too little power and has too 
many
>>health and safty problems.  Utilities here are figuring on natural gas 
fueled
>>fuel cells as the next big wave in power plants.  Probably the basic power
>>for the next 40 years or more.

>Yes, I meant fusion. What kind of health problems does renewable energy
>have? Are solar-panels also dangerous?

Mainly industrial accident problems.  Solar especially causes a lot of
induystrial accident per amount of power since its a lot of little
distributed systems.

Renewable is a grab bag term.  So the problems would depend on the system.
 Bio mass obviously would take up a lot of land and have ecological impacts,
and polution effects from burning.  Wind and tide systems tend to chew up
animals that get in the way and take up a lot of relestate, and of course
have cronic relyabilty problems (you ever try to schedule a selected wind
speed?).

Kelly

From popserver Mon Mar  4 01:00:14 GMT 1996
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	["3499" "Sun" "3" "March" "1996" "19:03:11" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "74" "Re: ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 16:12:42 -0800 (PST)
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Message-ID: <960303190311_339908877@emout09.mail.aol.com>
From: KellySt@aol.com
To: bmansur@oc.edu, David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, stevev@efn.org,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re:  I sincerely hope that Tim is vastly underestimating 
> how computer  sophistication will have advanced by 
> 2050.  But his comment about the ions not hitting the 
> mouth of the Asimov may be a concern for reasons other 
> than computer control.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but 
> won't those ions be affected by interstellar dust, gas, 
> charged particles, and weak magnetic edies from 
> the stars?  I wish I knew just how far we could keep 
> an ion stream focused  to with 1000 km, prefereable 
> 10km.  Heavy ions, like iron, should be less 
> perterbed no matter what kind of interference.

This is not a trivial mater.  Not only do you need a huge accelerator to
decel the fuel down to usable speed (why are we launching fuel toward the
ship from a microwave sail ship?  Why not a maser beam to a mini decel sail?)
from a platform being pulled around by the sail.  NOt easy.

I think Tims problems are with assuming the fuel launcher will keep working
long enough.  

> Warning: personal political views to follow.  Terminate your > browsing
unless you want to hear me gripe about our 
> space program.

> Okay,  I'm going ballistic here for a minute.  I vote we 
> move the launch date to 2150 or later.  Why?  You 
> probably know why.  It just doesn't seem that technology 
> will be at all up to the task of sending a man to another 
> planet  (let alone a starsystem) and bringing him back 
> safely without unparalled, united, financial support 
> from the nations of Earth.  

Oh are tech is well up to interplanetary flight.  Interstellar does look
unlikly by 2050 thou.  Unfortunatly if we back the time to 2150, we'ld have
no idea what technology or physics we'ld be talking about.

> And seeing how little people are investing into figuring 
> out how make conquoring the final frontier cheaper  we 
> aren't going to the stars any time soon.

After 15 years in NASA I have very colorfully opionion of our space program,
or lack there of.  But things are coming to a head.  People want to see some
results, and people are starting to realize NASA's been screwing around and
eating up money without producing anything, and that large comercial
potentials are being locked out.  Thats anoying people.

I expect a lot to change. in the next few years.

> By the way.  Did you guys hear that they vitually 
> cancelled the X-34 program?  The private companies 
> determined it wouldn't be profitable.  Maybe  true, but
>  somebody has to work the problem of designing a more 
> reasonably reusable LEO vehicle than the pitiful excuse 
> we call the Space Shuttle.

Several groups are.  Problem is NASA can't decide if it really wants a new
launcher built that will make the shuttle look stupid (even if it saves the
agencies bacon), or just try to twist things into a long term technology
study.

X34 start as a com,pany program that wanted to use NASA test equip.  Then
NASA took it over and opened it up for a sham compatative bid.  That awarded
it to the origional companies.  Then NASA tried to take it over and redefine
it the way they wanted it to be done.  The companies got madder and madder.
 Then decided it was 'uneconomical'.

The X-33 SSTO program (which is the expected shuttle and expendable
replacement) is having similart problems with NASA, but NASA can't afford to
have it fail.  But they may want it to even at the cost of the agency.  But
if NASA is destryied, there's noone else to prevent private launch services,
so that market should incresse a lot.


Kelly

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Message-ID: <960303190144_339908538@mail02.mail.aol.com>
From: KellySt@aol.com
To: bmansur@oc.edu, David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, stevev@efn.org,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re: MARS
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 19:01:45 -0500

toBrian Mansur)

> >>4. Has anyone figured out just how long the accelerator needs to be since

it
> >>has to be linear?  More to the point, can we keep the linear accelerator
> >>short enough and, therefore, light enough to produce relativistic exhaust
> >>velocities?

> >Some long time ago I figured out that it would probably be too long, the
> >formulas are not so easy to integrate so at that time I used some
repeating
> >summation. I assumed that we would not have a constant acceleration of the
> >mass, but a constant power input. This means that initially it accelerates
> >fast but at the end much slower. Relativistic effects do make this
> >difference worse.



===
> What I mean is has anyone thought about what it would 
> be like, structurally, to push what amounts to a 10 km 
> long acceleration tower at 10 m/s^2?  For that matter, 
> speaking of other starship structures, what would it be 
> like to push a ram scoop (a really tall wire mesh cone) 
> at the same rate?

MOst people skip over it, but it would probably be impossible.

> >>5. Can we even produce the magnetic fields in an accelerator necessary to
> >>get an exhaust velocity of .9996c for .62kg/sec. or even a .75c exhaust
> >>velocity using say a 1km long accelerator?  My understanding is that
field 

> >>generators that confine magnetics fields have a tendency to blow up.  I 
hope
> >>I'm wrong but I thought you might know if this concern applies to the
> >>designs we've discussed.

> >I think we should not worry about that too much, for me this is just a
> >problem for the gigantic-energy stack (i.e. problems involving creation
and
> >containment of gigangtic energies).

> Unfortunately, the hardware involved in accomplishing 
> energy containment for  our accelerator will up our ship 
> dry mass.  A 10km long ion accelerator is not going to be
>  terribly light as it is.  I originally was under the 
> impression that we could keep the ship dry weight at 
> 100,000 t o 250.000 tones.  Sadly, it seems that we 
> are putting more and more mass into the engine structure 
> which exponentially increases our fuel/RM problems. 

You are correct on all counts.

Depressing isn't it.

Kelly

From popserver Mon Mar  4 09:57:38 GMT 1996
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	["1055" "Mon" "4" "March" "1996" "10:51:26" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "24" "Re: Re: Summary A" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 10:51:26 +0100

>>Yes, I meant fusion. What kind of health problems does renewable energy
>>have? Are solar-panels also dangerous?
>
>Mainly industrial accident problems.  Solar especially causes a lot of
>induystrial accident per amount of power since its a lot of little
>distributed systems.

What kind of accidents should I think of? Exploding batteries, electrical
shortcuts?

>Renewable is a grab bag term.  So the problems would depend on the system.
> Bio mass obviously would take up a lot of land and have ecological impacts,
>and polution effects from burning.  Wind and tide systems tend to chew up
>animals that get in the way and take up a lot of relestate, and of course
>have cronic relyabilty problems (you ever try to schedule a selected wind
>speed?).

Now I see what you mean, but how many animals would be killed by pollution
caused by dirty-energy? I also heard that the number of birds killed by
wind-mills does depend very much on where those mills are. It seems that
birds have very distinct flying routes (downto 100 metres accurate).


Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 10:51:31 +0100

>> But do we need that much? I know I'm on a hot issue 
>> here, 20 years ago no one did see the need for computers 
>> either.
>> But now that we know what we can do with computers 
>> we can make a better estimation of what we need as a 
>> minimum. I've read that the Space Shuttle has less than
>> 1 Mb of memory (256 Kb?) so that would give us a idea 
>> of what we need and what we want.
>
>Actually the shuttles data limits were a constant problem, even safty
>problem.

Do you know why they didn't replace them? Or was replacing them an even
bigger safety problem?

>>I didn't know they where thAt save, nice to know though.
>> Here in Holland we have some guy who is turning an old 
>> nuclear reactor plant in a recreation palace.
>
>??  I never thought they were that interesting.

He's building a hotel inside it, with a restaurant, a bowling area and
probably a swimming pool where the core was previousely.


Timothy

From popserver Mon Mar  4 09:57:41 GMT 1996
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	["2035" "Mon" "4" "March" "1996" "10:51:36" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "43" "Re: ; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 01:53:05 -0800 (PST)
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: This is not a trivial mater.  Not only do you need a huge accelerator to
>decel the fuel down to usable speed (why are we launching fuel toward the
>ship from a microwave sail ship?  Why not a maser beam to a mini decel sail?)
>from a platform being pulled around by the sail.  NOt easy.
>
>I think Tims problems are with assuming the fuel launcher will keep working
>long enough.  

Yeps, but then again I have problems with anything concerning this project ;)

>After 15 years in NASA I have very colorfully opionion of our space program,
>or lack there of.  But things are coming to a head.  People want to see some
>results, and people are starting to realize NASA's been screwing around and
>eating up money without producing anything, and that large comercial
>potentials are being locked out.  Thats anoying people.

Sounds like Russian circumstances ;)

>Several groups are.  Problem is NASA can't decide if it really wants a new
>launcher built that will make the shuttle look stupid (even if it saves the
>agencies bacon), or just try to twist things into a long term technology
>study.
>
>X34 start as a com,pany program that wanted to use NASA test equip.  Then
>NASA took it over and opened it up for a sham compatative bid.  That awarded
>it to the origional companies.  Then NASA tried to take it over and redefine
>it the way they wanted it to be done.  The companies got madder and madder.
> Then decided it was 'uneconomical'.
>
>The X-33 SSTO program (which is the expected shuttle and expendable
>replacement) is having similart problems with NASA, but NASA can't afford to
>have it fail.  But they may want it to even at the cost of the agency.  But
>if NASA is destryied, there's noone else to prevent private launch services,
>so that market should incresse a lot.

Is NASA changing its policies to become a bit more commercial? (I'm a bit
lost about what became of the critical time, when the US government had no
money to pay its employers a while ago.) I also remember you changing jobs.


Timothy

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Brian Mansur 
Cc: interstellar drive group , David ,
        hous0042 , KellySt ,
         kgstar , lparker ,
        rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 08:30:43 -0500

At 4:57 PM 3/1/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
>>From Brian
>March 1, 1996
>
>Here it is: the detailed design I promised (as detailed as I can make it at
>the moment anyway).  But first: does the "interstellar drive group"
>selection that I now see on my address book  now account for everyone in the
>discussion team?  Okay, on with the show.
>
>Note that this is my first draft.  The lab is about to close and I have a
>lot more ideas to cover but they may have to wait a bit.  Things like sail
>shielding and mirror array design are among them.  Sill I'm going to send
>what I've got to let you all have some fun ripping it apart :)
>
>MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (Kevin already submitted the first this morning)
>
>Total mission time: 50+ years
>Pathfinder(s) mission flight time: 40+ years
>Asimov flight time: 24+ years
>Asimov exploration phase time: Undetermined

If its going to take 50 year to get there.  I think people would put it off
until they could think up a faster ship.  Or just lose  interest in the
project.

>ASSUMPTIONS:
>     It is assumed for this mission plan that a high degree of robotic
>automation has already made possible the production of at least 1E18 W
>needed to power 1E7 masers without much human supervision.  It is also
>assumed that this maser array is totally dedicated to the mission and that
>the beam will be left throughout the mission.
>
>PHASE 1:  LAUNCH OF PATHFINDERS
>     At least one heavy pathfider vessel will be sent before the Asimov
>using  maser sail to reach a terminal velocity of 1/3c.  Pathfinder carries
>several thousand, heavy duty, heavy weight, individually targetable,
>disassembled mirror arrays that will be deployed roughly 30 years later near
>TC (see reflectors in an upcoming posting).  These arrays (probably making
>an effective 1000 km+ wide reflector) will reflect maser energy back to the
>Asimov for the deceleration phase.  The Pathfinder may or may not have a
>crew depending on the level of automation available at the time of launch.
> Also, it may or may not carry emergency supplies for the Asimov should they
>choose to match speed and dock during the deceleration phase.

Are you assuming the beam would be tight enought to be reflected after 11
light years.  Not to mention assuming a mirror could hit the ships sail
with the reflected beam, a few light years away?

>PHASE 2: LAUNCH OF THE ASIMOV
>     The  Asimov is maser pushed to a high %c terminal velocity.  It is
>hoped that the maser propulsion system will be efficient enough to push the
>Asimov to a speed at which the effects of time dialation will be useful to
>the crew.  At the very least, a max speed of .75c is assumed here.
>     This ship will consist of an ion drive for in system shuttling around
>TC.  It will also carry the exploration team and their supplies for the
>mission.  Among the supplies already mentioned in other discusions are seed
>robots.  They will be used to start a robot workforce that will help
>construct, among other things, a precision mirror array to reflect the maser
>energy from Sol back to the Asimov's maser sail when the exploration phase
>is completed.
>
>PHASE 3: DECELERATION OF THE ASIMOV
>     The exact process has many variations.  If there are several
>Pathfinders, each, the one closest to the Asimov will deploy its reflector
>array and then move to a safe range from the beam path.  The array will
>enter the beam path and redirect the maser energy back to the Asimov.  The
>Asimov, of course, will have turned its sail around (a slow and delicate
>process).  It will also have moved slightly to the side the maser beam
>coming from Sol to prevent blocking of the array.

I assume 'array' refers to the reflectors on the pathfinders.

If the Pathfinders are reflecting the beam off to one side.  They will be
pushed out of the beam in the other direction, and accelerated forward.
Given that the beam presure is strong enough push the ships in the first
place, it would be to strong for the ships thrust against.

>     Some method of periodic or even continuous course correction on both
>the Asimov's part and the array's will be required to correct for the angle
>at which the maser beam must be reflected.  The Asimov may simply angle its
>sail slightly with the edge furtherest from the Sol to array beam tilted
>back toward Sol.  The array will have to use built in rockets, or else tilt
>from time to time in the proper direction to allow vectorial force to push
>it back into the center of the beam.

This might be complicated given the main sail would be curved like a
parachute, not flat.

>     Now, assuming that the doplar effect will cause problems with
>reflection of the maser beam, another Pathfinder could deploy it's array and
>continue the decelation process.  Note that I don't know if  the most
>efficient thing that the Asimov can do with the redirected maser beam will
>be to simply bounce it back to space or to power a ion drive.   The exhaust
>from an ion drive would make for nice shielding against large particles.
>     One final note.  As the Asimov and Pathfinder speeds reach equilibrium
>they have the option of docking (assuming the deceleration of the Asimov
>brought it close to the Pathfinder when speed equilibrium was reached.  At
>this point, any crew on the Pathfinder could cross over.  Note that the
>Asimov could dock with only one Pathfinder.

It could dock with more than one.  But that wold depend on their speeds and
relative positions.

>PHASE 4: SYSTEM EXPLORATION/CONSTRUCTION OF MASER REFLECTOR
>     The Asimov enters the Tau Ceti star system's Kupier Belt.  At this
>point it disassembles its sail and starts scouting for a low gravity, metal
>rich Kupier body that is not too far from the maser beam path.  Once such a
>body is located, the seed robots are deployed to begin a robot community.
> Since the Kupier body will be too far away from Tau Ceti for solar energy
>collection, it is assumed that the robots will be powered by fusion reactor
>that must be brought along (in addition to the fuel).  Depending on the
>automation technology at the time of launch, these robots will at least be
>responsible for construction of a mirror platform needed for reacceleration
>to Sol.

Why so far out?  That doesn't sound like and area we'ld want to do most of
our exploring at.  So why make the base there?

You could fuel the fusion reactors with fuel avalible were you set up the
operations.

Again, having a mirror reflect back the beam from sol sems unlikely.  Not
only would the sol beam be spread out over huge distences and diffuse.  If
it wasn't soread out a random orbit in the Kuniper belt would quickly drift
out of the beam path, and if it stayed in the beam it would be about
impossibly to reflect the beam that precisely.

>     The Asimov leaves the Kupier outpost to continue its exploration of the
>star system.  Whatever number of crew is needed to oversee construction
>stays behind.  As the maser reflector nears completion.  The array must be
>somehow weighted down to keep it from flying off.  Keeping it tethered to
>something like the weight of Phoboes would be nice but then Sol would have
>to track it to keep the beam on target.  It will probably be better to
>simply give it enough weight to prevent it from blowing away too fast while
>reaccelerating the Asimov.  I only hope that the required weight won't be
>beyond out ability to put to space.  Also, this entire array will have to be
>able to maintain its position inside the maser beam which means some
>powerful rockets or some angling of the array as mentioned in Phase 3.
>
>PHASE 5: REACCELERATION OF THE ASIMOV/RETURN TO SOL
>     This final phase is pretty self-explanitory.  The Asimov's sail (having
>been patched up from the flight to TC we hope) is redeployed is manuvered
>into the path of the redirected maser beam.  Again, it is hoped that a high
>terminal velocity will be possible.  As the Asimov nears Sol, the array is
>turned around and the masers focus straight on to the tatered sail.  Mission
>ends as the Asimov pulls into the local Starbase.

The array is the mirrors on the pathfinders.  The whole time the beam is
pointing straight at T.C. at the reflectors.  The ship is riding that beam
straight back from Tau.  I.E. the Tau reflection is shining on its back and
the stronger direct source from sol on its frount.  This makes accelerating
out of Tau, much less getting to high speed, very difficult.


Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Mon Mar  4 19:55:28 GMT 1996
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	["1717" "Sun" "3" "March" "1996" "21:15:00" "PST" "Brian Mansur" "bmansur@oc.edu" nil "40" "Re: My Two Bits Ain't Worth 1E-15 (Take 2)" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: My Two Bits Ain't Worth 1E-15 (Take 2)
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 96 21:15:00 PST


>From Brian

>Brian Says
>>>By the way, Kevin, I believe, was worried about the a redirecting mirror
>>>gaining too much speed related to the Asimov during the redirecting of 
the
>
>>>maser beam.  That problem can be handled by putting some sort of weight
>>>on the mirror.
>
>Tim Says
>>Yes, but then that weight has to be accelerated too during the starting
>>phase. So while gaining something on the one end, one looses something on
>>the other end.
>
Brian Says
>Just accelerate at a slower rate.

>Tims Says
>That means a longer trip and if we want the same end-velocity, the energy
>has to be beamed over a longer path.
>And we are not talking about a little bit more weight, assuming fusion fuel
>we should at least count with a ship that is 5 times heavier (assuming
>end-velocity of less than 0.3c).

See Phase 3 of my paper on the second Mars Hybrid (I still have things to 
transmit about it but that will have to wait till after I've done some 
homework these next few days).  Basically it says that you launch a maser 
reflector ahead of the Asimov to redirect the maser beam for deceleration. 
 I seem to recall you making a mension of this idea sometime before I joined 
the discussion group.  How did that go?

Anyway, the reflector is seriously weighted down and is accelerated to only 
..3c.  If it takes nine years for this to happen at say .036g as you 
calculated a while back, who cares?  The crew won't because they will launch 
later on the faster moving Asimov ten to twenty years after the reflector. 
 Oh, and I am assuming that our maser array is totally dedicated to the 
mission and that the reflector is unmanned and guided by the same types of 
waveguides that the masers are.      

From popserver Mon Mar  4 19:56:54 GMT 1996
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X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0
From: Brian Mansur 
To: David , hous0042 ,
        jim , KellySt ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 96 12:42:00 PST


>From Brian


Brian Says:
>Here it is: the detailed design I promised (as detailed as I can make it at 

>the moment anyway).  But first: does the "interstellar drive group"
>selection that I now see on my address book  now account for everyone in 
the
>discussion team?  Okay, on with the show.

Tim Says:
>This "kgstar " address is just Kelly at his work.
>You missed "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu"
>Why didn't you just copy the list I sent you a while ago?

I'll use that list from now on when I'm just composing mail.  Thanks for the 
list.

Brian Says:
>MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (Kevin already submitted the first this morning)
>
>Total mission time: 50+ years

Tim Says:
>Seems quite long, can it also be done in a shorter time?

Only if the doplar shift on the mirror redirecting the maser beam to Asimov 
doesn't concern you.  Frankly I don't yet have a good concept as to what 
kind of trouble this doplar shift would give us as our reflecting mirror 
approaches c.

An added note is that some may be concerned about aiming the reflector. 
 This shouldn't be a real problem if we are using those waveguide gyros that 
Kevin has assumed.

Brian Says:
>PHASE 1:  LAUNCH OF PATHFINDERS
>     At least one heavy pathfider vessel will be sent before the Asimov
>using  maser sail to reach a terminal velocity of 1/3c.  Pathfinder carries 

>several thousand, heavy duty, heavy weight, individually targetable,
>disassembled mirror arrays that will be deployed roughly 30 years later 
near
>TC (see reflectors in an upcoming posting).  These arrays (probably making
>an effective 1000 km+ wide reflector) will reflect maser energy back to the 

>Asimov for the deceleration phase.  The Pathfinder may or may not have a
>crew depending on the level of automation available at the time of launch.
> Also, it may or may not carry emergency supplies for the Asimov should 
they
>choose to match speed and dock during the deceleration phase.

Tim Says:

>How are you going to stop this pathfinder, or are the mirrors moving 
towards
>TC with v=1/3c ?

The mirrors are disposable (a pity) and yes they are headed toward TC 
general vicinity.

Tim Says:
>And in advance to your next letter, do the mirrors focus the maser-beam or
>do the reflect it "straight" back?

Hopefully we can construct them to do both.

From popserver Mon Mar  4 19:57:03 GMT 1996
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From: Brian Mansur 
To: Brian Mansur , kgstar 
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
         KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 96 13:03:00 PST


>From Brian,

>>At 4:57 PM 3/1/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
>>From Brian
>>March 1, 1996
>
>>MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (Kevin already submitted the first this morning)
>
>>Total mission time: 50+ years
>>Pathfinder(s) mission flight time: 40+ years
>>Asimov flight time: 24+ years
>>Asimov exploration phase time: Undetermined

Kelly Says:
>If its going to take 50 year to get there.  I think people would put it off
>until they could think up a faster ship.

I'll tell you right now that it will take you at least fifty years to think 
up and build the support systems for another faster ship.  Live with 50 
years or else we don't go at all!

>Or just lose interest in the
>project.

Okay, listen up people of America.  Unless we can create anti-matter in 
copius quantities or build a lot more than 1E7 masers plus solar energy 
collectors to power them all so that we can overcome doplar shift on the 
reflector, you're going to have to be patient.  Half a century really isn't 
that long for this kind of a mission.

And remember that twenty-five of the fifty+ years will be an unmanned part 
of the mission where theslow moving deceleration mirror gets into position 
so that we can send a fast moving ship with the exploration crew.  They will 
take 12+ years to get to TC and 12+ years to get back and I figure that they 
will be there for at least 10.  Now if that isn't good enough for you, I 
don't know what is.  Just how fast do want to go?  Warp speed? ;(

>ASSUMPTIONS:
>     It is assumed for this mission plan that a high degree of robotic
>automation has already made possible the production of at least 1E18 W
>needed to power 1E7 masers without much human supervision.  It is also
>assumed that this maser array is totally dedicated to the mission and that
>the beam will be left throughout the mission.
>
>PHASE 1:  LAUNCH OF PATHFINDERS
>     At least one heavy pathfider vessel will be sent before the Asimov
>using  maser sail to reach a terminal velocity of 1/3c.  Pathfinder carries
>several thousand, heavy duty, heavy weight, individually targetable,
>disassembled mirror arrays that will be deployed roughly 30 years later 
near
>TC (see reflectors in an upcoming posting).  These arrays (probably making
>an effective 1000 km+ wide reflector) will reflect maser energy back to the
>Asimov for the deceleration phase.  The Pathfinder may or may not have a
>crew depending on the level of automation available at the time of launch.
> Also, it may or may not carry emergency supplies for the Asimov should 
they
>choose to match speed and dock during the deceleration phase.

Kelly Says:
>Are you assuming the beam would be tight enought to be reflected after 11
>light years.

I'm assuming that we can send a mirror the width of Jupiter if we wanted to. 
 And when I get time to write up the specifics on this idea, you'll see that 
the mirror can actually be thousands of individually targeted mirrors guided 
by the same kinds of gyros that Kevin uses to aim the masers.

>Not to mention assuming a mirror could hit the ships sail
>with the reflected beam, a few light years away?

Remeber the gyros.

>PHASE 2: LAUNCH OF THE ASIMOV
>     The  Asimov is maser pushed to a high %c terminal velocity.  It is
>hoped that the maser propulsion system will be efficient enough to push the
>Asimov to a speed at which the effects of time dialation will be useful to
>the crew.  At the very least, a max speed of .75c is assumed here.
>     This ship will consist of an ion drive for in system shuttling around
>TC.  It will also carry the exploration team and their supplies for the
>mission.  Among the supplies already mentioned in other discusions are seed
>robots.  They will be used to start a robot workforce that will help
>construct, among other things, a precision mirror array to reflect the 
maser
>energy from Sol back to the Asimov's maser sail when the exploration phase
>is completed.
>
>PHASE 3: DECELERATION OF THE ASIMOV
>     The exact process has many variations.  If there are several
>Pathfinders, each, the one closest to the Asimov will deploy its reflector
>array and then move to a safe range from the beam path.  The array will
>enter the beam path and redirect the maser energy back to the Asimov.  The
>Asimov, of course, will have turned its sail around (a slow and delicate
>process).  It will also have moved slightly to the side the maser beam
>coming from Sol to prevent blocking of the array.

Kelly says:
>I assume 'array' refers to the reflectors on the pathfinders.

I just realized that you can launch the reflective mirror without sticking 
it on a pathfinder.  The pathfinder was supposed to just be a conviently 
protected package for the mirror.  But if some shielding ideas that I've 
been kicking around are at all worth our time, we can forego the idea of the 
pathfinder completely.

Kelly Says:
>If the Pathfinders are reflecting the beam off to one side.  They will be
>pushed out of the beam in the other direction, and accelerated forward.
>Given that the beam presure is strong enough push the ships in the first
>place, it would be too strong for the ships thrust against.

I'm not sure I understand the last sentence.

Brian Says:
>     Some method of periodic or even continuous course correction on both
>the Asimov's part and the array's will be required to correct for the angle
>at which the maser beam must be reflected.  The Asimov may simply angle its
>sail slightly with the edge furtherest from the Sol to array beam tilted
>back toward Sol.  The array will have to use built in rockets, or else tilt
>from time to time in the proper direction to allow vectorial force to push
>it back into the center of the beam.

Kelly Says:
>This might be complicated given the main sail would be curved like a
>parachute, not flat.

Good point.  Of course the angle of vectorial force will be tiny considering 
the reflector and the Asimov are several AU apart.

Brian Says:
>     Now, assuming that the doplar effect will cause problems with
>reflection of the maser beam, another Pathfinder could deploy it's array 
and
>continue the decelation process.  Note that I don't know if  the most
>efficient thing that the Asimov can do with the redirected maser beam will
>be to simply bounce it back to space or to power a ion drive.   The exhaust
>from an ion drive would make for nice shielding against large particles.
>     One final note.  As the Asimov and Pathfinder speeds reach equilibrium
>they have the option of docking (assuming the deceleration of the Asimov
>brought it close to the Pathfinder when speed equilibrium was reached.  At
>this point, any crew on the Pathfinder could cross over.  Note that the
>Asimov could dock with only one Pathfinder.

Kelly Writes:
>It could dock with more than one.  But that wold depend on their speeds and
>relative positions.

Have to think about that more, I guess.
Gotta go to class.  I'll finish replies after 5 CT.



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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Brian Mansur 
Cc: Brian Mansur , kgstar ,
        David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 15:31:29 -0500

At 1:03 PM 3/4/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
>>From Brian,
>
>>>At 4:57 PM 3/1/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
>>>From Brian
>>>March 1, 1996
>>
>>>MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (Kevin already submitted the first this morning)
>>
>>>Total mission time: 50+ years
>>>Pathfinder(s) mission flight time: 40+ years
>>>Asimov flight time: 24+ years
>>>Asimov exploration phase time: Undetermined
>
>Kelly Says:
>>If its going to take 50 year to get there.  I think people would put it off
>>until they could think up a faster ship.
>
>I'll tell you right now that it will take you at least fifty years to think
>up and build the support systems for another faster ship.  Live with 50
>years or else we don't go at all!

Oh really?  It took less than 50 years to go from the Wright Brothers flier
to  supersonic flight; or from the first mass market cars to the exodus
from the cities to the constructed subburbias.  Come to think of it we are
now celibrating the 50 year of the computer.

50 years is a long time in technology.  Also remember that fifty years
would put this mission into the 22nd century!  By then phisisists will have
discovered a lot more tricks then Anti-matter.  They might have thought of
warp drives for all we know.  (Well actually they already thought of them,
but have no practical idea how to do them.)

>>Or just lose interest in the
>>project.
>
>Okay, listen up people of America.  Unless we can create anti-matter in
>copius quantities or build a lot more than 1E7 masers plus solar energy
>collectors to power them all so that we can overcome doplar shift on the
>reflector, you're going to have to be patient.  Half a century really isn't
>that long for this kind of a mission.

Thats a very long time to wait around for first initial survey reports!  At
61 years (2111) you'ld get you first report back from Tau.  If you were
that patient, you wern't that interested.  You might as well have just done
photo recon from orbiting 1000 kilometer telescope arrays.  You'ld get a
lot of the data, 60 years earlier.

If your 60 years patent, you probably arn't interested enough to pay the
big bill for this stuff.

>And remember that twenty-five of the fifty+ years will be an unmanned part
>of the mission where the slow moving deceleration mirror gets into position
>so that we can send a fast moving ship with the exploration crew.  They will
>take 12+ years to get to TC and 12+ years to get back and I figure that they
>will be there for at least 10.  Now if that isn't good enough for you, I
>don't know what is.  Just how fast do want to go?  Warp speed? ;(
>
>>ASSUMPTIONS:
>>     It is assumed for this mission plan that a high degree of robotic
>>automation has already made possible the production of at least 1E18 W
>>needed to power 1E7 masers without much human supervision.  It is also
>>assumed that this maser array is totally dedicated to the mission and that
>>the beam will be left throughout the mission.
>>
>>PHASE 1:  LAUNCH OF PATHFINDERS
>>     At least one heavy pathfider vessel will be sent before the Asimov
>>using  maser sail to reach a terminal velocity of 1/3c.  Pathfinder carries
>>several thousand, heavy duty, heavy weight, individually targetable,
>>disassembled mirror arrays that will be deployed roughly 30 years later
>near
>>TC (see reflectors in an upcoming posting).  These arrays (probably making
>>an effective 1000 km+ wide reflector) will reflect maser energy back to the
>>Asimov for the deceleration phase.  The Pathfinder may or may not have a
>>crew depending on the level of automation available at the time of launch.
>> Also, it may or may not carry emergency supplies for the Asimov should
>they
>>choose to match speed and dock during the deceleration phase.
>
>Kelly Says:
>>Are you assuming the beam would be tight enought to be reflected after 11
>>light years.
>
>I'm assuming that we can send a mirror the width of Jupiter if we wanted to.
> And when I get time to write up the specifics on this idea, you'll see that
>the mirror can actually be thousands of individually targeted mirrors guided
>by the same kinds of gyros that Kevin uses to aim the masers.

Kev was aiming the beam electronicly, not mechanically.  Also given orbital
mechanics your Jupiter sized mirror array would move out of the beam.  I
don't know about out in the jovians, but things here at 1AU move about a
light minutte a week in their orbits.

>>Not to mention assuming a mirror could hit the ships sail
>>with the reflected beam, a few light years away?
>
>Remeber the gyros.
>
>>PHASE 2: LAUNCH OF THE ASIMOV
>>     The  Asimov is maser pushed to a high %c terminal velocity.  It is
>>hoped that the maser propulsion system will be efficient enough to push the
>>Asimov to a speed at which the effects of time dialation will be useful to
>>the crew.  At the very least, a max speed of .75c is assumed here.
>>     This ship will consist of an ion drive for in system shuttling around
>>TC.  It will also carry the exploration team and their supplies for the
>>mission.  Among the supplies already mentioned in other discusions are seed
>>robots.  They will be used to start a robot workforce that will help
>>construct, among other things, a precision mirror array to reflect the
>maser
>>energy from Sol back to the Asimov's maser sail when the exploration phase
>>is completed.
>>
>>PHASE 3: DECELERATION OF THE ASIMOV
>>     The exact process has many variations.  If there are several
>>Pathfinders, each, the one closest to the Asimov will deploy its reflector
>>array and then move to a safe range from the beam path.  The array will
>>enter the beam path and redirect the maser energy back to the Asimov.  The
>>Asimov, of course, will have turned its sail around (a slow and delicate
>>process).  It will also have moved slightly to the side the maser beam
>>coming from Sol to prevent blocking of the array.
>
>Kelly says:
>>I assume 'array' refers to the reflectors on the pathfinders.
>
>I just realized that you can launch the reflective mirror without sticking
>it on a pathfinder.  The pathfinder was supposed to just be a conviently
>protected package for the mirror.  But if some shielding ideas that I've
>been kicking around are at all worth our time, we can forego the idea of the
>pathfinder completely.
>
>Kelly Says:
>>If the Pathfinders are reflecting the beam off to one side.  They will be
>>pushed out of the beam in the other direction, and accelerated forward.
>>Given that the beam presure is strong enough push the ships in the first
>>place, it would be too strong for the ships thrust against.
>
>I'm not sure I understand the last sentence.

The beam holds the projected momentum needed to push our obserdly heavy
ship.  If said ship isn't in the beam, the reflectors in the beam will have
to angle relative to the beam.  That will mean that the thrust angles on
the reflectors and the receaving ship, will also be angled.  Since the
thrust isn't paralell to the beam/course.  The ship and reflectors will be
pushed out to the sides.  I.E. off the beam, and off course.

------------\
           /
          /
         \--------


>Brian Says:
>>     Some method of periodic or even continuous course correction on both
>>the Asimov's part and the array's will be required to correct for the angle
>>at which the maser beam must be reflected.  The Asimov may simply angle its
>>sail slightly with the edge furtherest from the Sol to array beam tilted
>>back toward Sol.  The array will have to use built in rockets, or else tilt
>>from time to time in the proper direction to allow vectorial force to push
>>it back into the center of the beam.
>
>Kelly Says:
>>This might be complicated given the main sail would be curved like a
>>parachute, not flat.
>
>Good point.  Of course the angle of vectorial force will be tiny considering
>the reflector and the Asimov are several AU apart.

Oh, I forgot you couldn't do that with the reflectors and get the beam to
the ship.  Also targeting on a moving ship when you get a few light months
apart is dangerous.

>Brian Says:
>>     Now, assuming that the doplar effect will cause problems with
>>reflection of the maser beam, another Pathfinder could deploy it's array
>and
>>continue the decelation process.  Note that I don't know if  the most
>>efficient thing that the Asimov can do with the redirected maser beam will
>>be to simply bounce it back to space or to power a ion drive.   The exhaust
>>from an ion drive would make for nice shielding against large particles.
>>     One final note.  As the Asimov and Pathfinder speeds reach equilibrium
>>they have the option of docking (assuming the deceleration of the Asimov
>>brought it close to the Pathfinder when speed equilibrium was reached.  At
>>this point, any crew on the Pathfinder could cross over.  Note that the
>>Asimov could dock with only one Pathfinder.
>
>Kelly Writes:
>>It could dock with more than one.  But that would depend on their speeds and
>>relative positions.
>
>Have to think about that more, I guess.
>Gotta go to class.  I'll finish replies after 5 CT.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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	["6409" "Mon" "4" "March" "1996" "15:00:00" "PST" "Brian Mansur" "bmansur@oc.edu" nil "122" "Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: Brian Mansur 
To: Brian Mansur , kgstar 
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
        rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 96 15:00:00 PST


>From Brian,

Brian Says:
>PHASE 4: SYSTEM EXPLORATION/CONSTRUCTION OF MASER REFLECTOR
>     The Asimov enters the Tau Ceti star system's Kupier Belt.  At this
>point it disassembles its sail and starts scouting for a low gravity, metal
>rich Kupier body that is not too far from the maser beam path.  Once such a
>body is located, the seed robots are deployed to begin a robot community.
> Since the Kupier body will be too far away from Tau Ceti for solar energy
>collection, it is assumed that the robots will be powered by fusion reactor
>that must be brought along (in addition to the fuel).  Depending on the
>automation technology at the time of launch, these robots will at least be
>responsible for construction of a mirror platform needed for reacceleration
>to Sol.

Kelly Says:
>Why so far out?  That doesn't sound like and area we'ld want to do most of
>our exploring at.  So why make the base there?
>You could fuel the fusion reactors with fuel avalible were you set up the
>operations.

The reason for putting the base so far out is because whatever Kupier body 
we find near the maser beam is going to be orbiting TC very slowly.  It will 
give us time to set up our reflector and get it into position with the least 
amount of effort.  It just occured to me that if you find an object further 
inside the system whose orbit would be just right at certain times to let 
you do the same thing.  Of course that also depends upon the orbital plane 
of TC.

Let me see if I can make this more clear.  Once the mirror is built, it will 
have to be put into the maser beam and it will have to be able to stay 
there.  So any orbital momentum it has must be overcome by either rockets or 
the acceleration force of the maser.  Let's face it.  We won't have enough 
time to weight the mirror down enough to keep it from accelerating.  But by 
putting the reflector in deep space, it should also be relatively free of 
gravitation distraction from TC and other objects, at least until it gets 
fast enough that it won't matter.  So in some ways the acceleration is good.

About getting fusion fuel from the rock we're already mining.  We might be 
able to if we can build a surplus of robot workers.  As I pointed out in the 
summary intro, this whole mission depends on a revolutionary degree of 
automation.

Kelly Says:
>Again, having a mirror reflect back the beam from sol sems unlikely.  Not
>only would the sol beam be spread out over huge distences and diffuse.  If
>it wasn't soraed out a random orbit in the Kuniper belt would quickly drift
>out of the beam path, and if it stayed in the beam it would be about
>impossibly to reflect the beam that precisely.

See above for how we plan to tackle this problem.  Also, the mirror 
components might be equiped with rockets.  Not only do they adjust position, 
but they add weight as well.  On the downside, they are also yet another 
item that must be built in system.

I'm beginning to see that if we can do all the things I'm saying we're going 
to have to, we might just go ahead and make another maser array complete 
with solar energy collectors.  The whole reason for bothering with a 
reflective mirror is to give the Asimov something that is supposed to be 
simpler to assemble at TC than a maser array.  So unless our automation is 
almost 100% automated, we're not going to get much exploring done. 
 Unfortunately, I'd don't see a better alternative on the table than to 
develope this automation.

That reminds me of a quote: "So you say you want a revolution.  Well you 
know.  We don't want to change the world but . . . well, all right."

>     The Asimov leaves the Kupier outpost to continue its exploration of 
the
>star system.  Whatever number of crew is needed to oversee construction
>stays behind.  As the maser reflector nears completion.  The array must be
>somehow weighted down to keep it from flying off.  Keeping it tethered to
>something like the weight of Phoboes would be nice but then Sol would have
>to track it to keep the beam on target.  It will probably be better to
>simply give it enough weight to prevent it from blowing away too fast while
>reaccelerating the Asimov.  I only hope that the required weight won't be
>beyond out ability to put to space.  Also, this entire array will have to 
be
>able to maintain its position inside the maser beam which means some
>powerful rockets or some angling of the array as mentioned in Phase 3.
>
>PHASE 5: REACCELERATION OF THE ASIMOV/RETURN TO SOL
>     This final phase is pretty self-explanitory.  The Asimov's sail 
(having
>been patched up from the flight to TC we hope) is redeployed is manuvered
>into the path of the redirected maser beam.  Again, it is hoped that a high
>terminal velocity will be possible.  As the Asimov nears Sol, the array is
>turned around and the masers focus straight on to the tatered sail. 
 Mission
>ends as the Asimov pulls into the local Starbase.

Kelly says:
>The array is the mirrors on the pathfinders.

No, the pathfinders are history (somewhere in deep, deep space by now) and 
the deceleration arrays are with them.

Kelly says:
>The whole time the beam is
>pointing straight at T.C. at the reflectors.  The ship is riding that beam
>straight back from Tau.  I.E. the Tau reflection is shining on its back and
>the stronger direct source from sol on its frount.  This makes accelerating
>out of Tau, much less getting to high speed, very difficult.

I left out the detail of saying that the Asimov will again be riding the 
redirected be just to the side of the incoming beam from Sol, thus avoiding 
the drag your worried about.  And, of course, we'll have to make course 
corrections on the Asimov and the reflector.


I'll go ahead and put a few ideas I had for mirror and ship course 
corrections here.  We could have the Asimov detach its ion drive and cable 
connect it to an edge of the wire mesh sail and the hab section.  The drive 
could then gently pull the whole set up back onto the beam path.   We could 
also, perhaps have the maser array at Sol periodically decrease power to 
allow this tug to do its job without being microwave fried.  We would have 
to do something about shielding the tug, of course.

Perhaps the tug could be a pair light rockets hanging onto opposite sides of 
 1000km+ wide sail.  They could have their own shielding and would be in 
excellent positions to do their jobs.  

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Brian Mansur 
Cc: Brian Mansur , kgstar ,
        David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 16:24:00 -0500

At 3:00 PM 3/4/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
>>From Brian,
>
>Brian Says:
>>PHASE 4: SYSTEM EXPLORATION/CONSTRUCTION OF MASER REFLECTOR
>>     The Asimov enters the Tau Ceti star system's Kupier Belt.  At this
>>point it disassembles its sail and starts scouting for a low gravity, metal
>>rich Kupier body that is not too far from the maser beam path.  Once such a
>>body is located, the seed robots are deployed to begin a robot community.
>> Since the Kupier body will be too far away from Tau Ceti for solar energy
>>collection, it is assumed that the robots will be powered by fusion reactor
>>that must be brought along (in addition to the fuel).  Depending on the
>>automation technology at the time of launch, these robots will at least be
>>responsible for construction of a mirror platform needed for reacceleration
>>to Sol.
>
>Kelly Says:
>>Why so far out?  That doesn't sound like and area we'ld want to do most of
>>our exploring at.  So why make the base there?
>>You could fuel the fusion reactors with fuel avalible were you set up the
>>operations.
>
>The reason for putting the base so far out is because whatever Kupier body
>we find near the maser beam is going to be orbiting TC very slowly.  It will
>give us time to set up our reflector and get it into position with the least
>amount of effort.  It just occured to me that if you find an object further
>inside the system whose orbit would be just right at certain times to let
>you do the same thing.  Of course that also depends upon the orbital plane
>of TC.

Object that far out areactually moving faster than orbits closer in.  They
just have farther to go.  You also have to remember that if the beam is
powerfull enough to push the ship at 10m/s, it will push the lighter mirror
faster.

Good point about the orbital plane.  Ods are Sol won't be in it.

>Let me see if I can make this more clear.  Once the mirror is built, it will
>have to be put into the maser beam and it will have to be able to stay
>there.  So any orbital momentum it has must be overcome by either rockets or
>the acceleration force of the maser.  Let's face it.  We won't have enough
>time to weight the mirror down enough to keep it from accelerating.  But by
>putting the reflector in deep space, it should also be relatively free of
>gravitation distraction from TC and other objects, at least until it gets
>fast enough that it won't matter.  So in some ways the acceleration is good.
>
>About getting fusion fuel from the rock we're already mining.  We might be
>able to if we can build a surplus of robot workers.  As I pointed out in the
>summary intro, this whole mission depends on a revolutionary degree of
>automation.
>
>Kelly Says:
>>Again, having a mirror reflect back the beam from sol sems unlikely.  Not
>>only would the sol beam be spread out over huge distences and diffuse.  If
>>it wasn't soraed out a random orbit in the Kuniper belt would quickly drift
>>out of the beam path, and if it stayed in the beam it would be about
>>impossibly to reflect the beam that precisely.
>
>See above for how we plan to tackle this problem.  Also, the mirror
>components might be equiped with rockets.  Not only do they adjust position,
>but they add weight as well.  On the downside, they are also yet another
>item that must be built in system.
>
>I'm beginning to see that if we can do all the things I'm saying we're going
>to have to, we might just go ahead and make another maser array complete
>with solar energy collectors.  The whole reason for bothering with a
>reflective mirror is to give the Asimov something that is supposed to be
>simpler to assemble at TC than a maser array.  So unless our automation is
>almost 100% automated, we're not going to get much exploring done.
> Unfortunately, I'd don't see a better alternative on the table than to
>develope this automation.
>
>That reminds me of a quote: "So you say you want a revolution.  Well you
>know.  We don't want to change the world but . . . well, all right."
>
>>     The Asimov leaves the Kupier outpost to continue its exploration of
>the
>>star system.  Whatever number of crew is needed to oversee construction
>>stays behind.  As the maser reflector nears completion.  The array must be
>>somehow weighted down to keep it from flying off.  Keeping it tethered to
>>something like the weight of Phoboes would be nice but then Sol would have
>>to track it to keep the beam on target.  It will probably be better to
>>simply give it enough weight to prevent it from blowing away too fast while
>>reaccelerating the Asimov.  I only hope that the required weight won't be
>>beyond out ability to put to space.  Also, this entire array will have to
>be
>>able to maintain its position inside the maser beam which means some
>>powerful rockets or some angling of the array as mentioned in Phase 3.
>>
>>PHASE 5: REACCELERATION OF THE ASIMOV/RETURN TO SOL
>>     This final phase is pretty self-explanitory.  The Asimov's sail
>(having
>>been patched up from the flight to TC we hope) is redeployed is manuvered
>>into the path of the redirected maser beam.  Again, it is hoped that a high
>>terminal velocity will be possible.  As the Asimov nears Sol, the array is
>>turned around and the masers focus straight on to the tatered sail.
> Mission
>>ends as the Asimov pulls into the local Starbase.
>
>Kelly says:
>>The array is the mirrors on the pathfinders.
>
>No, the pathfinders are history (somewhere in deep, deep space by now) and
>the deceleration arrays are with them.
>
>Kelly says:
>>The whole time the beam is
>>pointing straight at T.C. at the reflectors.  The ship is riding that beam
>>straight back from Tau.  I.E. the Tau reflection is shining on its back and
>>the stronger direct source from sol on its frount.  This makes accelerating
>>out of Tau, much less getting to high speed, very difficult.
>
>I left out the detail of saying that the Asimov will again be riding the
>redirected be just to the side of the incoming beam from Sol, thus avoiding
>the drag your worried about.  And, of course, we'll have to make course
>corrections on the Asimov and the reflector.
>
>
>I'll go ahead and put a few ideas I had for mirror and ship course
>corrections here.  We could have the Asimov detach its ion drive and cable
>connect it to an edge of the wire mesh sail and the hab section.  The drive
>could then gently pull the whole set up back onto the beam path.   We could
>also, perhaps have the maser array at Sol periodically decrease power to
>allow this tug to do its job without being microwave fried.  We would have
>to do something about shielding the tug, of course.
>
>Perhaps the tug could be a pair light rockets hanging onto opposite sides of
> 1000km+ wide sail.  They could have their own shielding and would be in
>excellent positions to do their jobs.

You have to remember these tugs would have to pump out thousands, to
hundreds of thousands of tons of thrust.  That's too much to just hang off
the sail.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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	["2186" "Mon" "4" "March" "1996" "16:35:49" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "48" "Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
CC: Brian Mansur , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
        rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 16:35:49 -0500

Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
> Thats a very long time to wait around for first initial survey reports!  At
> 61 years (2111) you'ld get you first report back from Tau.  If you were
> that patient, you wern't that interested.  You might as well have just done
> photo recon from orbiting 1000 kilometer telescope arrays.  You'ld get a
> lot of the data, 60 years earlier.
> 
> If your 60 years patent, you probably arn't interested enough to pay the
> big bill for this stuff.

I agree.  If you launch a mission that will not return
scientific results in your lifetime (assume you are in your
30s or 40s when you send the mission off), most people would
probably just say "why not let them do it -then-, instead?"

The payoff is too distant for most corporations, and the
bill too big for governments to justify to the people when
considering the length of time involved.

If we can't do it faster, we're not going to do it.

Too bad we don't have a target system with already-contacted
ETs.  Deceleration seems to be our biggest problem.  They
could construct an in-system maser decelerator... Of course,
assuming they trusted us.  I don't know what we'd do if an
alien civilization contacted us and asked us to build a maser
array to decelerate their spacecraft.

Interestingly, many people say that interstellar travel is
so amazingly difficult (and we are seeing part of it) that
it won't be accomplished for millenia, if at all.  One of
the responses to the Fermi Paradox. But lately I think we'd
agree that interstellar travel is, in fact, possible, but
at horrendous cost.  If we had a pre-existing deceleration
system (i.e. cooperative aliens in the target system),
however, interstellar travel may actually not be too difficult.
It makes me think of an area of the galaxy where civilizations
may arise frequently, and there is some sort of trade route
set up with masers.  You could travel easily between stars if
there were lots of aliens around... But, if (like us) you
seem to be alone, you might be stuck at home.  Interesting
paradox - if there are places to colonize, you can't go there.
If everywhere is filled up already, you can go there.

Just rambling.


David

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	["11286" "Mon" "4" "March" "1996" "15:39:00" "PST" "Brian Mansur" "bmansur@oc.edu" nil "263" "Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: Brian Mansur 
To: kgstar 
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
        rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 96 15:39:00 PST


>From Brian 3:34 PM CT 3/4/96

At 1:03 PM 3/4/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
>>From Brian,
>
>>>At 4:57 PM 3/1/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
>>>From Brian
>>>March 1, 1996
>>
>>>MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (Kevin already submitted the first this morning)
>>
>>>Total mission time: 50+ years
>>>Pathfinder(s) mission flight time: 40+ years
>>>Asimov flight time: 24+ years
>>>Asimov exploration phase time: Undetermined
>
>Kelly Says:
>>If its going to take 50 year to get there.  I think people would put it 
off
>>until they could think up a faster ship.

>Brian Says:
>I'll tell you right now that it will take you at least fifty years to think
>up and build the support systems for another faster ship.  Live with 50
>years or else we don't go at all!

Kelly Says:
>Oh really?  It took less than 50 years to go from the Wright Brothers flier
>to  supersonic flight; or from the first mass market cars to the exodus
>from the cities to the constructed subburbias.  Come to think of it we are
>now celibrating the 50 year of the computer.

>50 years is a long time in technology.  Also remember that fifty years
>would put this mission into the 22nd century!  By then phisisists will have
>discovered a lot more tricks then Anti-matter.  They might have thought of
>warp drives for all we know.  (Well actually they already thought of them,
>but have no practical idea how to do them.)

Okay, to avoid a hashed argument (and I apologize for coming down so hard on 
my time comment), I concede to your point of possibly being able to build 
something faster.  It sounds like your idea is improbable but then I'm 
proposing that we'll be able to create near 100% autonomous robot 
workforces.  I'm only saying that, right now, this hybrid idea is the best I 
can think of.  Of course, as your argument hints, who knows but we might be 
able ourselves to find something better given a few more weeks or months.

Brian Says:
>>Or just lose interest in the
>>project.
>
>Okay, listen up people of America.  Unless we can create anti-matter in
>copius quantities or build a lot more than 1E7 masers plus solar energy
>collectors to power them all so that we can overcome doplar shift on the
>reflector, you're going to have to be patient.  Half a century really isn't
>that long for this kind of a mission.

Kelly Says:
>Thats a very long time to wait around for first initial survey reports!  At
>61 years (2111) you'ld get you first report back from Tau.  If you were
>that patient, you wern't that interested.  You might as well have just done
>photo recon from orbiting 1000 kilometer telescope arrays.  You'ld get a
>lot of the data, 60 years earlier.

I see where our differences in opinion are coming from.  You and I have 
different ideas as to what a kind of human universe this hybrid idea will be 
taking form.  And I admit that it is my fault here because you are sticking 
to the LIT charter and I'm not qualifying my designs by noting that I am not 
limiting my technology to what would be available to 2050.  Sorry.

As for using 1000 km telescope arrays to scan TC.  Given the level of 
technology and space infrastructure that I think any of our close to 
workable designs are needing, we would have done that already.

Question.  Isn't there a wavelength resolution limiting how much detail you 
can gather on distant objects. What I'm wondering is whether or not 
telescopes have the same limitations that light microscopes have when trying 
to view objects with detail smaller than the wavelength (in nm) of the 
object they are observing.

Kelly Says:
>If your 60 years patent, you probably arn't interested enough to pay the
>big bill for this stuff.

With the amount of automation I'm assuming here, its the robots who will be 
paying the bill.  And they don't care (we hope given depending if AI's are 
needed for my ideas).

>And remember that twenty-five of the fifty+ years will be an unmanned part
>of the mission where the slow moving deceleration mirror gets into position
>so that we can send a fast moving ship with the exploration crew.  They 
will
>take 12+ years to get to TC and 12+ years to get back and I figure that 
they
>will be there for at least 10.  Now if that isn't good enough for you, I
>don't know what is.  Just how fast do want to go?  Warp speed? ;(
>
>>ASSUMPTIONS:
>>     It is assumed for this mission plan that a high degree of robotic
>>automation has already made possible the production of at least 1E18 W
>>needed to power 1E7 masers without much human supervision.  It is also
>>assumed that this maser array is totally dedicated to the mission and that
>>the beam will be left throughout the mission.
>>
>>PHASE 1:  LAUNCH OF PATHFINDERS
>>     At least one heavy pathfider vessel will be sent before the Asimov
>>using  maser sail to reach a terminal velocity of 1/3c.  Pathfinder 
carries
>>several thousand, heavy duty, heavy weight, individually targetable,
>>disassembled mirror arrays that will be deployed roughly 30 years later
>near
>>TC (see reflectors in an upcoming posting).  These arrays (probably making
>>an effective 1000 km+ wide reflector) will reflect maser energy back to 
the
>>Asimov for the deceleration phase.  The Pathfinder may or may not have a
>>crew depending on the level of automation available at the time of launch.
>> Also, it may or may not carry emergency supplies for the Asimov should
>they
>>choose to match speed and dock during the deceleration phase.
>
>Kelly Says:
>>Are you assuming the beam would be tight enought to be reflected after 11
>>light years.
>
>Brian Says:
>I'm assuming that we can send a mirror the width of Jupiter if we wanted 
to.
> And when I get time to write up the specifics on this idea, you'll see 
that
>the mirror can actually be thousands of individually targeted mirrors 
guided
>by the same kinds of gyros that Kevin uses to aim the masers.

>Kelly Says
>Kev was aiming the beam electronicly, not mechanically.  Also given orbital
>mechanics your Jupiter sized mirror array would move out of the beam.  I
>don't know about out in the jovians, but things here at 1AU move about a
>light minutte a week in their orbits.

Brian Says:
If the reflector is construction at Kupier Belt distance, it won't be moving 
any faster than Pluto.  That is until we put the mirror into the beam path. 
 Then it will slowly accelerate.  With relatively minor course corrections, 
it will stay in the beam.

>>Kelly Says:
>>Not to mention assuming a mirror could hit the ships sail
>>with the reflected beam, a few light years away?
>
>Brian Says:
>Remeber the gyros.
>
>>PHASE 2: LAUNCH OF THE ASIMOV
>>     The  Asimov is maser pushed to a high %c terminal velocity.  It is
>>hoped that the maser propulsion system will be efficient enough to push 
the
>>Asimov to a speed at which the effects of time dialation will be useful to
>>the crew.  At the very least, a max speed of .75c is assumed here.
>>     This ship will consist of an ion drive for in system shuttling around
>>TC.  It will also carry the exploration team and their supplies for the
>>mission.  Among the supplies already mentioned in other discusions are 
seed
>>robots.  They will be used to start a robot workforce that will help
>>construct, among other things, a precision mirror array to reflect the
>maser
>>energy from Sol back to the Asimov's maser sail when the exploration phase
>>is completed.
>>
>>PHASE 3: DECELERATION OF THE ASIMOV
>>     The exact process has many variations.  If there are several
>>Pathfinders, each, the one closest to the Asimov will deploy its reflector
>>array and then move to a safe range from the beam path.  The array will
>>enter the beam path and redirect the maser energy back to the Asimov.  The
>>Asimov, of course, will have turned its sail around (a slow and delicate
>>process).  It will also have moved slightly to the side the maser beam
>>coming from Sol to prevent blocking of the array.
>
>Kelly says:
>>I assume 'array' refers to the reflectors on the pathfinders.
>
>Brian Says:
>I just realized that you can launch the reflective mirror without sticking
>it on a pathfinder.  The pathfinder was supposed to just be a conviently
>protected package for the mirror.  But if some shielding ideas that I've
>been kicking around are at all worth our time, we can forego the idea of 
the
>pathfinder completely.
>
>Kelly Says:
>>If the Pathfinders are reflecting the beam off to one side.  They will be
>>pushed out of the beam in the other direction, and accelerated forward.
>>Given that the beam presure is strong enough push the ships in the first
>>place, it would be too strong for the ships thrust against.
>
>Brian Says:
>I'm not sure I understand the last sentence.

>Kelly Says:
>The beam holds the projected momentum needed to push our obserdly heavy
>ship.  If said ship isn't in the beam, the reflectors in the beam will have
>to angle relative to the beam.  That will mean that the thrust angles on
>the reflectors and the receaving ship, will also be angled.  Since the
>thrust isn't paralell to the beam/course.  The ship and reflectors will be
>pushed out to the sides.  I.E. off the beam, and off course.

 ------------\
           /
          /
         \--------

Brian Says:
Understood as inevitable.  Here are some ideas I put into an e-mail sent to 
you just a little earlier today which address the problem.
Begin Excerpt
I'll go ahead and put a few ideas I had for mirror and ship course 
corrections here.  We could have the Asimov detach its ion drive and cable 
connect it to an edge of the wire mesh sail and the hab section.  The drive 
could then gently pull the whole set up back onto the beam path.   We could 
also, perhaps have the maser array at Sol periodically decrease power to 
allow this tug to do its job without being microwave fried.  We would have 
to do something about shielding the tug, of course.

Perhaps the tug could be a pair light rockets hanging onto opposite sides of 
 1000km+ wide sail.  They could have their own shielding and would be in 
excellent positions to do their jobs.
End Excerpt

>Brian Says:
>>     Some method of periodic or even continuous course correction on both
>>the Asimov's part and the array's will be required to correct for the 
angle
>>at which the maser beam must be reflected.  The Asimov may simply angle 
its
>>sail slightly with the edge furtherest from the Sol to array beam tilted
>>back toward Sol.  The array will have to use built in rockets, or else 
tilt
>>from time to time in the proper direction to allow vectorial force to push
>>it back into the center of the beam.
>
>Kelly Says:
>>This might be complicated given the main sail would be curved like a
>>parachute, not flat.
>
>Brian Says:
>Good point.  Of course the angle of vectorial force will be tiny 
considering
>the reflector and the Asimov are several AU apart.

>Kelly Says:
>Oh, I forgot you couldn't do that with the reflectors and get the beam to
>the ship.

Brian Says:
Huh?  I don't understand this.

>Kelly Says:
> Also targeting on a moving ship when you get a few light months
>apart is dangerous.

Brian Says:
See my above question on just how well Kev's gyroes could be adapted to work 
for mechanical reflection.  If this isn't solvable for aiming mirrrors, I 
guess its back to the drawing board.

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: kgstar 
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
         KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 96 15:48:00 PST


>From Brian At 3:45 CT 3/4/96


>At 3:00 PM 3/4/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
>>From Brian,
>
>Brian Says:
>>PHASE 4: SYSTEM EXPLORATION/CONSTRUCTION OF MASER REFLECTOR
>>     The Asimov enters the Tau Ceti star system's Kupier Belt.  At this
>>point it disassembles its sail and starts scouting for a low gravity, 
metal
>>rich Kupier body that is not too far from the maser beam path.  Once such 
a
>>body is located, the seed robots are deployed to begin a robot community.
>> Since the Kupier body will be too far away from Tau Ceti for solar energy
>>collection, it is assumed that the robots will be powered by fusion 
reactor
>>that must be brought along (in addition to the fuel).  Depending on the
>>automation technology at the time of launch, these robots will at least be
>>responsible for construction of a mirror platform needed for 
reacceleration
>>to Sol.
>
>Kelly Says:
>>Why so far out?  That doesn't sound like and area we'ld want to do most of
>>our exploring at.  So why make the base there?
>>You could fuel the fusion reactors with fuel avalible were you set up the
>>operations.
>
>Brian Says:
>The reason for putting the base so far out is because whatever Kupier body
>we find near the maser beam is going to be orbiting TC very slowly.  It 
will
>give us time to set up our reflector and get it into position with the 
least
>amount of effort.  It just occured to me that if you find an object further
>inside the system whose orbit would be just right at certain times to let
>you do the same thing.  Of course that also depends upon the orbital plane
>of TC.
>
>Kelly Says:
>Object that far out areactually moving faster than orbits closer in.  They
>just have farther to go.  You also have to remember that if the beam is
>powerfull enough to push the ship at 10m/s, it will push the lighter mirror
>faster.

Brian Says: I'm sick of writing says.  From now on its just the name of the 
person.
Brian:
Doh!  Oh well.  Guess that just means that we'll have to use an extra 
100,000 tons of fuel to slow the array down to keep it inside the beam.  You 
know, when I joined LIT I really never thought that getting to another star 
system would be so hard.  Back then I thought  you could just say "engage" 
and the engines would start up and "whosh."  You'd be there after the 
commercial break.  Ugh!

[Much discusion deleted]

Brian:
>I'll go ahead and put a few ideas I had for mirror and ship course
>corrections here.  We could have the Asimov detach its ion drive and cable
>connect it to an edge of the wire mesh sail and the hab section.  The drive
>could then gently pull the whole set up back onto the beam path.   We could
>also, perhaps have the maser array at Sol periodically decrease power to
>allow this tug to do its job without being microwave fried.  We would have
>to do something about shielding the tug, of course.
>
>Perhaps the tug could be a pair light rockets hanging onto opposite sides 
of
> 1000km+ wide sail.  They could have their own shielding and would be in
>excellent positions to do their jobs.

Kelly:
>You have to remember these tugs would have to pump out thousands, to
>hundreds of thousands of tons of thrust.  That's too much to just hang off
>the sail.

Okay, new twist.  Leave the blasted maser beam on full and use power from 
the masers to convert to electricity and let the tug boat ion accelerator 
eat cake (the kind made up of one ion variety of course).   You can tell I'm 
getting frustrated here.

Kelly


 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: Brian Mansur 
To: David ,
        Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
Cc: hous0042 , KellySt ,
        lparker , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 96 16:12:00 PST



 ----------
From: David
To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39
Cc: Brian Mansur; hous0042; KellySt; lparker; rddesign; Steve VanDevender; 
T.L.G.vanderLinden
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Monday, March 04, 1996 4:35PM

Brian 4:08 CT 3/4/96

Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
> Thats a very long time to wait around for first initial survey reports! 
 At
> 61 years (2111) you'ld get you first report back from Tau.

Brian:
Actually, it will take 50 years.  That assumes 35 to 40 years from the time 
of the deceleration mirror launch to the final deceleration of the Asimov. 
 Remember that the Asimov will be launching just 15 to 25 years after the 
reflector has been sent up before it.  After final deceleration and 
exploration begins, the first survey reports will be received 12 years later 
around the year 2100 (assuming a decel reflector launch date of 2050 which I 
am not).

I would like to point out that I haven't seen an answer to my question about 
the doplar shift effect on a fast moving reflector.  If the doplar effect 
simply decreases efficiency of the beam before it reaches the Asimov, that 
can be compensated for by using more power.  Of course that means building 
more solar panels and masers but then I'm assuming increadible automation 
capability where there is virtually no human cost.

>Kelly:
>If you were
> that patient, you wern't that interested.  You might as well have just 
done
> photo recon from orbiting 1000 kilometer telescope arrays.  You'ld get a
> lot of the data, 60 years earlier.
>
> If your 60 years patent, you probably arn't interested enough to pay the
> big bill for this stuff.

>David:
>I agree.  If you launch a mission that will not return
>scientific results in your lifetime (assume you are in your
>30s or 40s when you send the mission off), most people would
>probably just say "why not let them do it -then-, instead?"

>The payoff is too distant for most corporations, and the
>bill too big for governments to justify to the people when
>considering the length of time involved.

Brian:
Who was that one European prince that started looking for a route to India 
by sailing around Africa?  Didn't it take about 50 years for his dream to 
come true.  And that after he died?  Of course most of us aren't that 
patient.

David:
>If we can't do it faster, we're not going to do it.

Brian:
This lack of patience on the part of human society is starting really to bug 
me.  Of course I've no right to complain seeing as how I should have been 
patient enough to do my Calculus before replying to these e-mails.

>David:
>Too bad we don't have a target system with already-contacted
>ETs.  Deceleration seems to be our biggest problem.  They
>could construct an in-system maser decelerator... Of course,
>assuming they trusted us.  I don't know what we'd do if an
>alien civilization contacted us and asked us to build a maser
>array to decelerate their spacecraft.

Perhaps let them come but I'd certainly make sure that they'd have to go 
through serious customs checks before we let them anywhere near Earth. 
 Can't have illegal aliens running about now can we?

>Interestingly, many people say that interstellar travel is
>so amazingly difficult (and we are seeing part of it) that
>it won't be accomplished for millenia, if at all.  One of
>the responses to the Fermi Paradox. But lately I think we'd
>agree that interstellar travel is, in fact, possible, but
>at horrendous cost.  If we had a pre-existing deceleration
>system (i.e. cooperative aliens in the target system),
>however, interstellar travel may actually not be too difficult.
>It makes me think of an area of the galaxy where civilizations
>may arise frequently, and there is some sort of trade route
>set up with masers.  You could travel easily between stars if
>there were lots of aliens around... But, if (like us) you
>seem to be alone, you might be stuck at home.  Interesting
>paradox - if there are places to colonize, you can't go there.
>If everywhere is filled up already, you can go there.

>Just rambling.

Brian:
I call it brainstorming.  Thats where ideas often come from.


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From: Brian Mansur 
To: Brian Mansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 96 16:18:00 PST



 ----------
From: KellySt
To: bmansur; David; hous0042; jim; lparker; rddesign; stevev; 
T.L.G.vanderLinden; zkulpa
Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Sunday, March 03, 1996 7:01PM

Brian 4:20 CT 3/4/96

Previous group discusion:
>>You probably meen fusion.  Maybe eventually, but in the present political
>>climate not a chance.  Renewable  produces too little power and has too
many
>>health and safty problems.  Utilities here are figuring on natural gas
fueled
>>fuel cells as the next big wave in power plants.  Probably the basic power
>>for the next 40 years or more.

>Yes, I meant fusion. What kind of health problems does renewable energy
>have? Are solar-panels also dangerous?

>Kelly
>Mainly industrial accident problems.  Solar especially causes a lot of
>induystrial accident per amount of power since its a lot of little
>distributed systems.

>Renewable is a grab bag term.  So the problems would depend on the >system.
>Bio mass obviously would take up a lot of land and have ecological impacts,
>and polution effects from burning.  Wind and tide systems tend to chew up
>animals that get in the way and take up a lot of relestate, and of course
>have cronic relyabilty problems (you ever try to schedule a selected wind
>speed?).

Brian
What we need to do is difinitively establish the health risks involved in 
beaming power via microwaves to Earth.  If it is safe (and the public and 
congress can be convinced of this), we should have companies falling over 
themselves to get huge arrays into space where power can be tapped almost 
twentfour hours a day if the orbit is geostationary.

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From: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
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CC: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        hous0042 , KellySt ,
        lparker , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 17:21:14 -0500

Brian Mansur wrote:
> Who was that one European prince that started looking for a route to India
> by sailing around Africa?  Didn't it take about 50 years for his dream to
> come true.  And that after he died?  Of course most of us aren't that
> patient.

But did he not expect to find anything?  Or did he hope
to find something within his lifetime? Motivations are
just as important as end results.

> This lack of patience on the part of human society is starting really to bug
> me.  Of course I've no right to complain seeing as how I should have been
> patient enough to do my Calculus before replying to these e-mails.

I agree, but it's there - we have to deal with it.

David

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: Brian Mansur , David 
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        Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 96 16:42:00 PST



 ----------
From: David
To: Brian Mansur
Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39; hous0042; KellySt; lparker; rddesign; Steve 
VanDevender; T.L.G.vanderLinden
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Monday, March 04, 1996 5:21PM

Brian 4:39 CT 3/4/96

>Brian Mansur wrote:
> Who was that one European prince that started looking for a route to India
> by sailing around Africa?  Didn't it take about 50 years for his dream to
> come true.  And that after he died?  Of course most of us aren't that
> patient.

David
>But did he not expect to find anything?  Or did he hope
>to find something within his lifetime? Motivations are
>just as important as end results.

Brian
Good piont.

..

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: David 
Cc: hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , kgstar ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Mirrors (first draft)
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 96 17:12:00 PST


Brian 5:10 CT 3/4/96

Okay, here it is.  The mirror paper.

First off.  I'd like to thank everyone for the comments on the MARS Hybrid 
II (first draft). Although it has been mangled and shot through, I think it 
still has a chance of working.  This is because I'm already assuming a 
miracle in robotics to make it happen.  Why not a few more?  But to make it 
more believable, here are some ideas on the mirrors to perhaps add (or 
eliminate) credibility.

MASER BEAM REDIRECTING MIRROR:
     This component of my hybrid design was originally meant to be 
 disassembled and launched aboard a protective pathfinder shell.  This is 
because the mirror will have to be precision crafted to reflect maser energy 
back to the Asimov during its deceleration phase.  Whether or not the mirror 
will be curved overall I am not knowledgable enough to determine.  But to 
allow flexiblitity for the design, I planned on making the entire mirror a 
composite of individually targetable mirrors of say 10km to a side.
     Since the total reflective area will span a diameter of at least 
1000km, this mirror will also have to be extremely thin.  I figure that by 
the time we decide to launch this mission, we should have come up with some 
superstrong, superlightweight  plastics for the support structure and 
reflective surface.  This is necessary to make this array light enough to 
push.  A point of confusion for me is just what a microwave reflector would 
be like in terms of the reflective surface.  I have heard that a reflective 
sail could be made like chicken wire with spaces of say 1 mm between wires. 
 That would certainly lighten the load.
     Refiguring my reflector ideas, I decided that the mirror could be 
protected against the interstellar debris using a lightweight solid shield. 
 See Shielding below for an explanation.   If this can be accomplished, then 
we could use the mirror as its own sail, pushing it via masers.  It would be 
heavy but that is actually good because it means less acceleration during 
the Asimov's decel phase and so less distance between the two to aim across. 

     Aiming the array would be accompished by applying the same kinds of 
gyros that are employed on the masers to keep the beams on target from the 
Sol end.  I hope this is adaption can be made because my entire deceleration 
scheme really depends on it.  I note that these gyros will need some kind of 
protection from the maser beam and that is something I've not yet worked 
out.
     In flight course corrections will be needed for this reflector to work. 
 This will have to be accomplished with onboard rockets.  Just how powerful 
they must be and how much fuel they must carry depends on how light we can 
get the mirror structure.  If the mirror is chicken wire, this shouldn't be 
much of a problem.

SHIELDING:
     Here's my proposal on shielding.  Make a bag out of chicken wire and 
fill it with superlightweight ping pong balls or with a superlightweight 
foam.  These substances would act like a dust or gas barrier but would stay 
inside the bag.  Anything that hits the bag will probably cause a sizable 
explosion so replenishment of these materials will be needed.  Robots can 
scout the surface of the bag to patch and reknit gaping holes.   The size of 
the bag depends on how much shielding we want.
     It just occured to me that this idea may not work very well because the 
chemical structural of the pp balls or the foam will probably be altered by 
the tremendous heat from collisions.  Kelly, I believe, had proposed keeping 
a plasma in a bag several km in thickness.  I don't know how to contain 
plasma in such a thin bag as chicken wire even it the wire was producing a 
hefty field.  Also, how do we keep the plasma a plasma.  How about a "less" 
energetic charged dust cloud.  Would that stay in a magnetic field better? 
 Could we keep it charged.  Wouldn't we have static electricity problems?

So much for bolstering my hybid design.  By the way.  From now on I'm going 
to officially call it an ARGOSY class starship.  Since I'll probably have 
nothing better to do over spring break (like relaxing?), I'll see if I can 
improve my design.  Expect to see a lot of ideas borrowed from the Explorer 
design.  I should at least be able to give the group a decent description 
along with a critic of the problems associated with the thing.  Oh, and a 
long list of assumptions as well.  

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Brian Mansur , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 08:36:32 -0500

At 4:35 PM 3/4/96, David Levine wrote:
>Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>> Thats a very long time to wait around for first initial survey reports!  At
>> 61 years (2111) you'ld get you first report back from Tau.  If you were
>> that patient, you wern't that interested.  You might as well have just done
>> photo recon from orbiting 1000 kilometer telescope arrays.  You'ld get a
>> lot of the data, 60 years earlier.
>>
>> If your 60 years patent, you probably arn't interested enough to pay the
>> big bill for this stuff.
>
>I agree.  If you launch a mission that will not return
>scientific results in your lifetime (assume you are in your
>30s or 40s when you send the mission off), most people would
>probably just say "why not let them do it -then-, instead?"
>
>The payoff is too distant for most corporations, and the
>bill too big for governments to justify to the people when
>considering the length of time involved.
>
>If we can't do it faster, we're not going to do it.

I'm tending toward the steping stone idea.  Try a few of the near by stars
now, and strech when you can.

>Too bad we don't have a target system with already-contacted
>ETs.  Deceleration seems to be our biggest problem.  They
>could construct an in-system maser decelerator... Of course,
>assuming they trusted us.  I don't know what we'd do if an
>alien civilization contacted us and asked us to build a maser
>array to decelerate their spacecraft.
>
>Interestingly, many people say that interstellar travel is
>so amazingly difficult (and we are seeing part of it) that
>it won't be accomplished for millenia, if at all.  One of
>the responses to the Fermi Paradox. But lately I think we'd
>agree that interstellar travel is, in fact, possible, but
>at horrendous cost.  If we had a pre-existing deceleration
>system (i.e. cooperative aliens in the target system),
>however, interstellar travel may actually not be too difficult.
>It makes me think of an area of the galaxy where civilizations
>may arise frequently, and there is some sort of trade route
>set up with masers.  You could travel easily between stars if
>there were lots of aliens around... But, if (like us) you
>seem to be alone, you might be stuck at home.  Interesting
>paradox - if there are places to colonize, you can't go there.
>If everywhere is filled up already, you can go there.
>
>Just rambling.
>
>
>David

Yeah.

Interesting point about Star travel.  The whole idea of the radio search of
the galaxy is that phyisical star travel is impossible.  So civilizations
would have to content themselves with randomly transmiting (possibly for
hundreds of thousands of years!), until someone in the galaxy decides to
listen and reply.  We have shown that it is possible; not practical yet,
but possible.  Given that what civilization would wait hundreds of
thousands of years for an answer, when they could just go look for
themselves.

So in a way, we haven't come up with a doable concept yet, but we've done
better than Carl Sagen and friends.


Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Brian Mansur 
Cc: kgstar , David ,
        hous0042 , KellySt ,
        lparker , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 09:15:20 -0500

At 3:39 PM 3/4/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
>>From Brian 3:34 PM CT 3/4/96
>
>At 1:03 PM 3/4/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
>>>From Brian,
>>
>>>>At 4:57 PM 3/1/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
>>>>From Brian
>>>>March 1, 1996
>>>
>>>>MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (Kevin already submitted the first this morning)
>>>
>>>>Total mission time: 50+ years
>>>>Pathfinder(s) mission flight time: 40+ years
>>>>Asimov flight time: 24+ years
>>>>Asimov exploration phase time: Undetermined
>>
>>Kelly Says:
>>>If its going to take 50 year to get there.  I think people would put it
>off
>>>until they could think up a faster ship.
>
>>Brian Says:
>>I'll tell you right now that it will take you at least fifty years to think
>>up and build the support systems for another faster ship.  Live with 50
>>years or else we don't go at all!
>
>Kelly Says:
>>Oh really?  It took less than 50 years to go from the Wright Brothers flier
>>to  supersonic flight; or from the first mass market cars to the exodus
>>from the cities to the constructed subburbias.  Come to think of it we are
>>now celibrating the 50 year of the computer.
>
>>50 years is a long time in technology.  Also remember that fifty years
>>would put this mission into the 22nd century!  By then phisisists will have
>>discovered a lot more tricks then Anti-matter.  They might have thought of
>>warp drives for all we know.  (Well actually they already thought of them,
>>but have no practical idea how to do them.)
>
>Okay, to avoid a hashed argument (and I apologize for coming down so hard on
>my time comment), I concede to your point of possibly being able to build
>something faster.  It sounds like your idea is improbable but then I'm
>proposing that we'll be able to create near 100% autonomous robot
>workforces.  I'm only saying that, right now, this hybrid idea is the best I
>can think of.  Of course, as your argument hints, who knows but we might be
>able ourselves to find something better given a few more weeks or months.
>
>Brian Says:
>>>Or just lose interest in the
>>>project.
>>
>>Okay, listen up people of America.  Unless we can create anti-matter in
>>copius quantities or build a lot more than 1E7 masers plus solar energy
>>collectors to power them all so that we can overcome doplar shift on the
>>reflector, you're going to have to be patient.  Half a century really isn't
>>that long for this kind of a mission.
>
>Kelly Says:
>>Thats a very long time to wait around for first initial survey reports!  At
>>61 years (2111) you'ld get you first report back from Tau.  If you were
>>that patient, you wern't that interested.  You might as well have just done
>>photo recon from orbiting 1000 kilometer telescope arrays.  You'ld get a
>>lot of the data, 60 years earlier.
>
>I see where our differences in opinion are coming from.  You and I have
>different ideas as to what a kind of human universe this hybrid idea will be
>taking form.  And I admit that it is my fault here because you are sticking
>to the LIT charter and I'm not qualifying my designs by noting that I am not
>limiting my technology to what would be available to 2050.  Sorry.

Thats ok.  Its an old argument in the group.  As I mentioned in those draft
web pages I sent around (and got no responce to!).  If you slip the time
table to a cetury from now, you have to start guessing what new
technologies, and Physcics! will be avalible.  A hundred years ago Fusion,
fission, relativity, momentum transfer of momentum, and a bunch more were
not enve theories.  Physisists (sp?) are currently mutering about inertian
and kinetic energy (i.e. what the hell are they), mater conversion,
controled distortion of space and time, alternate dimentions, faster than
light travel, and even freakier stuff.  By 2050 a lot of these mutterings
will be hardened theories, and our designs will look like a Saturn-V the
size of a mountain fueled by burning coal.

But, if you don't know what we'll get, you got to plan conservativly.

>As for using 1000 km telescope arrays to scan TC.  Given the level of
>technology and space infrastructure that I think any of our close to
>workable designs are needing, we would have done that already.
>
>Question.  Isn't there a wavelength resolution limiting how much detail you
>can gather on distant objects. What I'm wondering is whether or not
>telescopes have the same limitations that light microscopes have when trying
>to view objects with detail smaller than the wavelength (in nm) of the
>object they are observing.

The wave length limit would be the same.  We couldn't resolve objects
smaller than a wavelength of light.  Not that thats a big issue in studing
interstellar planets.  ;)

>Kelly Says:
>>If your 60 years patent, you probably arn't interested enough to pay the
>>big bill for this stuff.
>
>With the amount of automation I'm assuming here, its the robots who will be
>paying the bill.  And they don't care (we hope given depending if AI's are
>needed for my ideas).
>
>>And remember that twenty-five of the fifty+ years will be an unmanned part
>>of the mission where the slow moving deceleration mirror gets into position
>>so that we can send a fast moving ship with the exploration crew.  They
>will
>>take 12+ years to get to TC and 12+ years to get back and I figure that
>they
>>will be there for at least 10.  Now if that isn't good enough for you, I
>>don't know what is.  Just how fast do want to go?  Warp speed? ;(
>>
>>>ASSUMPTIONS:
>>>     It is assumed for this mission plan that a high degree of robotic
>>>automation has already made possible the production of at least 1E18 W
>>>needed to power 1E7 masers without much human supervision.  It is also
>>>assumed that this maser array is totally dedicated to the mission and that
>>>the beam will be left throughout the mission.
>>>
>>>PHASE 1:  LAUNCH OF PATHFINDERS
>>>     At least one heavy pathfider vessel will be sent before the Asimov
>>>using  maser sail to reach a terminal velocity of 1/3c.  Pathfinder
>carries
>>>several thousand, heavy duty, heavy weight, individually targetable,
>>>disassembled mirror arrays that will be deployed roughly 30 years later
>>near
>>>TC (see reflectors in an upcoming posting).  These arrays (probably making
>>>an effective 1000 km+ wide reflector) will reflect maser energy back to
>the
>>>Asimov for the deceleration phase.  The Pathfinder may or may not have a
>>>crew depending on the level of automation available at the time of launch.
>>> Also, it may or may not carry emergency supplies for the Asimov should
>>they
>>>choose to match speed and dock during the deceleration phase.
>>
>>Kelly Says:
>>>Are you assuming the beam would be tight enought to be reflected after 11
>>>light years.
>>
>>Brian Says:
>>I'm assuming that we can send a mirror the width of Jupiter if we wanted
>to.
>> And when I get time to write up the specifics on this idea, you'll see
>that
>>the mirror can actually be thousands of individually targeted mirrors
>guided
>>by the same kinds of gyros that Kevin uses to aim the masers.
>
>>Kelly Says
>>Kev was aiming the beam electronicly, not mechanically.  Also given orbital
>>mechanics your Jupiter sized mirror array would move out of the beam.  I
>>don't know about out in the jovians, but things here at 1AU move about a
>>light minutte a week in their orbits.
>
>Brian Says:
>If the reflector is construction at Kupier Belt distance, it won't be moving
>any faster than Pluto.  That is until we put the mirror into the beam path.
> Then it will slowly accelerate.  With relatively minor course corrections,
>it will stay in the beam.

Pluto moves MUCH faster than Earth.  Your mirror would quickly move out of
the beam.  even if the beam was larger than Earths orbit.

>>>Kelly Says:
>>>Not to mention assuming a mirror could hit the ships sail
>>>with the reflected beam, a few light years away?
>>
>>Brian Says:
>>Remeber the gyros.
>>
>>>PHASE 2: LAUNCH OF THE ASIMOV
>>>     The  Asimov is maser pushed to a high %c terminal velocity.  It is
>>>hoped that the maser propulsion system will be efficient enough to push
>the
>>>Asimov to a speed at which the effects of time dialation will be useful to
>>>the crew.  At the very least, a max speed of .75c is assumed here.
>>>     This ship will consist of an ion drive for in system shuttling around
>>>TC.  It will also carry the exploration team and their supplies for the
>>>mission.  Among the supplies already mentioned in other discusions are
>seed
>>>robots.  They will be used to start a robot workforce that will help
>>>construct, among other things, a precision mirror array to reflect the
>>maser
>>>energy from Sol back to the Asimov's maser sail when the exploration phase
>>>is completed.
>>>
>>>PHASE 3: DECELERATION OF THE ASIMOV
>>>     The exact process has many variations.  If there are several
>>>Pathfinders, each, the one closest to the Asimov will deploy its reflector
>>>array and then move to a safe range from the beam path.  The array will
>>>enter the beam path and redirect the maser energy back to the Asimov.  The
>>>Asimov, of course, will have turned its sail around (a slow and delicate
>>>process).  It will also have moved slightly to the side the maser beam
>>>coming from Sol to prevent blocking of the array.
>>
>>Kelly says:
>>>I assume 'array' refers to the reflectors on the pathfinders.
>>
>>Brian Says:
>>I just realized that you can launch the reflective mirror without sticking
>>it on a pathfinder.  The pathfinder was supposed to just be a conviently
>>protected package for the mirror.  But if some shielding ideas that I've
>>been kicking around are at all worth our time, we can forego the idea of
>the
>>pathfinder completely.

Then how do you slow down the packaged mirrors without the pathfinder
rockets?  Or is this the expendable set?  I'm confused.

>>Kelly Says:
>>>If the Pathfinders are reflecting the beam off to one side.  They will be
>>>pushed out of the beam in the other direction, and accelerated forward.
>>>Given that the beam presure is strong enough push the ships in the first
>>>place, it would be too strong for the ships thrust against.
>>
>>Brian Says:
>>I'm not sure I understand the last sentence.
>
>>Kelly Says:
>>The beam holds the projected momentum needed to push our obserdly heavy
>>ship.  If said ship isn't in the beam, the reflectors in the beam will have
>>to angle relative to the beam.  That will mean that the thrust angles on
>>the reflectors and the receaving ship, will also be angled.  Since the
>>thrust isn't paralell to the beam/course.  The ship and reflectors will be
>>pushed out to the sides.  I.E. off the beam, and off course.
>
> ------------\
>           /
>          /
>         \--------
>
>Brian Says:
>Understood as inevitable.  Here are some ideas I put into an e-mail sent to
>you just a little earlier today which address the problem.
>Begin Excerpt
>I'll go ahead and put a few ideas I had for mirror and ship course
>corrections here.  We could have the Asimov detach its ion drive and cable
>connect it to an edge of the wire mesh sail and the hab section.  The drive
>could then gently pull the whole set up back onto the beam path.   We could
>also, perhaps have the maser array at Sol periodically decrease power to
>allow this tug to do its job without being microwave fried.  We would have
>to do something about shielding the tug, of course.
>
>Perhaps the tug could be a pair light rockets hanging onto opposite sides of
> 1000km+ wide sail.  They could have their own shielding and would be in
>excellent positions to do their jobs.
>End Excerpt

Hanging them on the sails doesn't matter.  The weight after all is in the
ship, not the sail.

Given the power levels of the beam, the lateral thrusters on the ship and
mirror assembly would need to be incredable.  Possibly prohibativly so.

>>Brian Says:
>>>     Some method of periodic or even continuous course correction on both
>>>the Asimov's part and the array's will be required to correct for the
>angle
>>>at which the maser beam must be reflected.  The Asimov may simply angle
>its
>>>sail slightly with the edge furtherest from the Sol to array beam tilted
>>>back toward Sol.  The array will have to use built in rockets, or else
>tilt
>>>from time to time in the proper direction to allow vectorial force to push
>>>it back into the center of the beam.
>>
>>Kelly Says:
>>>This might be complicated given the main sail would be curved like a
>>>parachute, not flat.
>>
>>Brian Says:
>>Good point.  Of course the angle of vectorial force will be tiny
>considering
>>the reflector and the Asimov are several AU apart.
>
>>Kelly Says:
>>Oh, I forgot you couldn't do that with the reflectors and get the beam to
>>the ship.
>
>Brian Says:
>Huh?  I don't understand this.

If you angle the mirrors to counter thrust you back into the beam, you'ld
be reflecting the beam away from the ship not toward it.  Trying to
anticipate where the ship is relative to the mirror array would be a
problem too.  The mirrors obviously can't 'aim' in the conventional sence
due to the time delay.

You might try a secondary set of sails rigged to provide lateral thrust.
After all.  Only a tiny fraction of the beam will hit the reflectors (The
beam would after all be pretty spread out), and only a fraction of the
reflected beam would hit the main sail (since you can't aim accuratly,
shotgun the area).

>>Kelly Says:
>> Also targeting on a moving ship when you get a few light months
>>apart is dangerous.
>
>Brian Says:
>See my above question on just how well Kev's gyroes could be adapted to work
>for mechanical reflection.  If this isn't solvable for aiming mirrrors, I
>guess its back to the drawing board.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Brian Mansur 
Cc: kgstar , David ,
        hous0042 , KellySt ,
        lparker , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 09:21:21 -0500

At 3:48 PM 3/4/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
>>From Brian At 3:45 CT 3/4/96
>
>
>>At 3:00 PM 3/4/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
>>>From Brian,
>>
>>Brian Says:
>>>PHASE 4: SYSTEM EXPLORATION/CONSTRUCTION OF MASER REFLECTOR
>>>     The Asimov enters the Tau Ceti star system's Kupier Belt.  At this
>>>point it disassembles its sail and starts scouting for a low gravity,
>metal
>>>rich Kupier body that is not too far from the maser beam path.  Once such
>a
>>>body is located, the seed robots are deployed to begin a robot community.
>>> Since the Kupier body will be too far away from Tau Ceti for solar energy
>>>collection, it is assumed that the robots will be powered by fusion
>reactor
>>>that must be brought along (in addition to the fuel).  Depending on the
>>>automation technology at the time of launch, these robots will at least be
>>>responsible for construction of a mirror platform needed for
>reacceleration
>>>to Sol.
>>
>>Kelly Says:
>>>Why so far out?  That doesn't sound like and area we'ld want to do most of
>>>our exploring at.  So why make the base there?
>>>You could fuel the fusion reactors with fuel avalible were you set up the
>>>operations.
>>
>>Brian Says:
>>The reason for putting the base so far out is because whatever Kupier body
>>we find near the maser beam is going to be orbiting TC very slowly.  It
>will
>>give us time to set up our reflector and get it into position with the
>least
>>amount of effort.  It just occured to me that if you find an object further
>>inside the system whose orbit would be just right at certain times to let
>>you do the same thing.  Of course that also depends upon the orbital plane
>>of TC.
>>
>>Kelly Says:
>>Object that far out areactually moving faster than orbits closer in.  They
>>just have farther to go.  You also have to remember that if the beam is
>>powerfull enough to push the ship at 10m/s, it will push the lighter mirror
>>faster.
>
>Brian Says: I'm sick of writing says.  From now on its just the name of the
>person.
>Brian:
>Doh!  Oh well.  Guess that just means that we'll have to use an extra
>100,000 tons of fuel to slow the array down to keep it inside the beam.  You
>know, when I joined LIT I really never thought that getting to another star
>system would be so hard.  Back then I thought  you could just say "engage"
>and the engines would start up and "whosh."  You'd be there after the
>commercial break.  Ugh!

Yeah, reality sucks some times.  MOst of LIT thought we'ld have the drive
systems ironed out in a couple of months.  That was nearly 2 years ago.


>[Much discusion deleted]
>
>Brian:
>>I'll go ahead and put a few ideas I had for mirror and ship course
>>corrections here.  We could have the Asimov detach its ion drive and cable
>>connect it to an edge of the wire mesh sail and the hab section.  The drive
>>could then gently pull the whole set up back onto the beam path.   We could
>>also, perhaps have the maser array at Sol periodically decrease power to
>>allow this tug to do its job without being microwave fried.  We would have
>>to do something about shielding the tug, of course.
>>
>>Perhaps the tug could be a pair light rockets hanging onto opposite sides
>of
>> 1000km+ wide sail.  They could have their own shielding and would be in
>>excellent positions to do their jobs.
>
>Kelly:
>>You have to remember these tugs would have to pump out thousands, to
>>hundreds of thousands of tons of thrust.  That's too much to just hang off
>>the sail.
>
>Okay, new twist.  Leave the blasted maser beam on full and use power from
>the masers to convert to electricity and let the tug boat ion accelerator
>eat cake (the kind made up of one ion variety of course).   You can tell I'm
>getting frustrated here.


Many sore head ponding on this wall.  We certainly didn't come up with this
crazy interstellar microwave beam sail trick because it sounded easy!

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Brian Mansur 
Cc: David ,
         Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        hous0042 , KellySt ,
        lparker , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 09:28:32 -0500

At 4:12 PM 3/4/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
> ----------
>From: David
>To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39
>Cc: Brian Mansur; hous0042; KellySt; lparker; rddesign; Steve VanDevender;
>T.L.G.vanderLinden
>Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
>Date: Monday, March 04, 1996 4:35PM
>
>Brian 4:08 CT 3/4/96
>
>Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>> Thats a very long time to wait around for first initial survey reports!
> At
>> 61 years (2111) you'ld get you first report back from Tau.
>
>Brian:
>Actually, it will take 50 years.  That assumes 35 to 40 years from the time
>of the deceleration mirror launch to the final deceleration of the Asimov.
> Remember that the Asimov will be launching just 15 to 25 years after the
>reflector has been sent up before it.  After final deceleration and
>exploration begins, the first survey reports will be received 12 years later
>around the year 2100 (assuming a decel reflector launch date of 2050 which I
>am not).

Opps, were sorry.

>I would like to point out that I haven't seen an answer to my question about
>the doplar shift effect on a fast moving reflector.  If the doplar effect
>simply decreases efficiency of the beam before it reaches the Asimov, that
>can be compensated for by using more power.  Of course that means building
>more solar panels and masers but then I'm assuming increadible automation
>capability where there is virtually no human cost.

Don't have numbers, but yes the shift will whipe out most of the power.


>>Kelly:
>>If you were
>> that patient, you wern't that interested.  You might as well have just
>done
>> photo recon from orbiting 1000 kilometer telescope arrays.  You'ld get a
>> lot of the data, 60 years earlier.
>>
>> If your 60 years patent, you probably arn't interested enough to pay the
>> big bill for this stuff.
>
>>David:
>>I agree.  If you launch a mission that will not return
>>scientific results in your lifetime (assume you are in your
>>30s or 40s when you send the mission off), most people would
>>probably just say "why not let them do it -then-, instead?"
>
>>The payoff is too distant for most corporations, and the
>>bill too big for governments to justify to the people when
>>considering the length of time involved.
>
>Brian:
>Who was that one European prince that started looking for a route to India
>by sailing around Africa?  Didn't it take about 50 years for his dream to
>come true.  And that after he died?  Of course most of us aren't that
>patient.

They never made it to China.  Ironicly the Chineese were coming around the
other side of Africa at the same time.  They gave up because the outside
world was full of infearious that wern't worth talking to.  (The government
also though sailers were to uppity.)  So they never made it to europe.

None of them of course is used to the tech of ten years from now being
drasticly better than that of now.  We KNOW we will be able to do it much
better later.

>David:
>>If we can't do it faster, we're not going to do it.
>
>Brian:
>This lack of patience on the part of human society is starting really to bug
>me.  Of course I've no right to complain seeing as how I should have been
>patient enough to do my Calculus before replying to these e-mails.

Its not a limitation.  Its just not trying to be stupid and wastfull.

>>David:
>>Too bad we don't have a target system with already-contacted
>>ETs.  Deceleration seems to be our biggest problem.  They
>>could construct an in-system maser decelerator... Of course,
>>assuming they trusted us.  I don't know what we'd do if an
>>alien civilization contacted us and asked us to build a maser
>>array to decelerate their spacecraft.
>
>Perhaps let them come but I'd certainly make sure that they'd have to go
>through serious customs checks before we let them anywhere near Earth.
> Can't have illegal aliens running about now can we?


;)


Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
CC: Brian Mansur , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
        rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 09:38:46 -0500

Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
> Pluto moves MUCH faster than Earth.  Your mirror would quickly move out of
> the beam.  even if the beam was larger than Earths orbit.

Pluto's mean orbital velocity is 4.74 km/sec.
Earth's mean orbital velocity is 29.79 km/sec.

David

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: David , kgstar 
Cc: Brian Mansur , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
        rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 10:03:00 PST


Brian 9:56 CT 3/5/96


David:
>Just rambling.
>
>
>David


Kelly
>Yeah.

>Interesting point about Star travel.  The whole idea of the radio search of
>the galaxy is that phyisical star travel is impossible.  So civilizations
>would have to content themselves with randomly transmiting (possibly for
>hundreds of thousands of years!), until someone in the galaxy decides to
>listen and reply.  We have shown that it is possible; not practical yet,
>but possible.  Given that what civilization would wait hundreds of
>thousands of years for an answer, when they could just go look for
>themselves.

>So in a way, we haven't come up with a doable concept yet, but we've done
>better than Carl Sagen and friends.

Brian
So how does it feel to be on the cutting edge ;) of starship design?  What's 
sad is that we are the only ones who really look at this problem from at 
least a semi-real perspective.  And whats sadder is that we're finding that 
we have to be completely unrealistic (by today's tech standards) to think up 
anything that would get us to TC.

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: David ,
        Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
Cc: Brian Mansur , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
        rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 10:21:00 PST


Brian 10:15 CT 3/5/96

>Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
> Pluto moves MUCH faster than Earth.  Your mirror would quickly move out of
> the beam.  even if the beam was larger than Earths orbit.

>David
>Pluto's mean orbital velocity is 4.74 km/sec.
>Earth's mean orbital velocity is 29.79 km/sec.

Why is the mean orbital velocity of Pluto 4.74 compared to a much larger 
29.79.  Did you get the numbers mixed up.   I'm confused.

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Brian Mansur 
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
        jim , KellySt ,
         kgstar , lparker ,
        rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Mirrors (first draft)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 11:26:49 -0500

At 5:12 PM 3/4/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
>Brian 5:10 CT 3/4/96
>
>Okay, here it is.  The mirror paper.
>
>First off.  I'd like to thank everyone for the comments on the MARS Hybrid
>II (first draft). Although it has been mangled and shot through, I think it
>still has a chance of working.  This is because I'm already assuming a
>miracle in robotics to make it happen.  Why not a few more?  But to make it
>more believable, here are some ideas on the mirrors to perhaps add (or
>eliminate) credibility.
>
>MASER BEAM REDIRECTING MIRROR:
>     This component of my hybrid design was originally meant to be
> disassembled and launched aboard a protective pathfinder shell.  This is
>because the mirror will have to be precision crafted to reflect maser energy
>back to the Asimov during its deceleration phase.  Whether or not the mirror
>will be curved overall I am not knowledgable enough to determine.  But to
>allow flexiblitity for the design, I planned on making the entire mirror a
>composite of individually targetable mirrors of say 10km to a side.

Thats kind of the problem with these big structures.  They won't stay
precice under these loads.  They will flex.  Probably need to be flexible
like fabric.


>     Since the total reflective area will span a diameter of at least
>1000km, this mirror will also have to be extremely thin.  I figure that by
>the time we decide to launch this mission, we should have come up with some
>superstrong, superlightweight  plastics for the support structure and
>reflective surface.  This is necessary to make this array light enough to
>push.  A point of confusion for me is just what a microwave reflector would
>be like in terms of the reflective surface.  I have heard that a reflective
>sail could be made like chicken wire with spaces of say 1 mm between wires.
> That would certainly lighten the load.

A looser mesh than that, possibly up to 1/2 cm mesh.  But varies alot
depeding on transmitted frequency and dopler shift.

>     Refiguring my reflector ideas, I decided that the mirror could be
>protected against the interstellar debris using a lightweight solid shield.
> See Shielding below for an explanation.   If this can be accomplished, then
>we could use the mirror as its own sail, pushing it via masers.  It would be
>heavy but that is actually good because it means less acceleration during
>the Asimov's decel phase and so less distance between the two to aim across.
>
>     Aiming the array would be accompished by applying the same kinds of
>gyros that are employed on the masers to keep the beams on target from the
>Sol end.  I hope this is adaption can be made because my entire deceleration
>scheme really depends on it.  I note that these gyros will need some kind of
>protection from the maser beam and that is something I've not yet worked
>out.
>     In flight course corrections will be needed for this reflector to work.
> This will have to be accomplished with onboard rockets.  Just how powerful
>they must be and how much fuel they must carry depends on how light we can
>get the mirror structure.  If the mirror is chicken wire, this shouldn't be
>much of a problem.
>
>SHIELDING:
>     Here's my proposal on shielding.  Make a bag out of chicken wire and
>fill it with superlightweight ping pong balls or with a superlightweight
>foam.  These substances would act like a dust or gas barrier but would stay
>inside the bag.  Anything that hits the bag will probably cause a sizable
>explosion so replenishment of these materials will be needed.  Robots can
>scout the surface of the bag to patch and reknit gaping holes.   The size of
>the bag depends on how much shielding we want.
>     It just occured to me that this idea may not work very well because the
>chemical structural of the pp balls or the foam will probably be altered by
>the tremendous heat from collisions.  Kelly, I believe, had proposed keeping
>a plasma in a bag several km in thickness.  I don't know how to contain
>plasma in such a thin bag as chicken wire even it the wire was producing a
>hefty field.  Also, how do we keep the plasma a plasma.  How about a "less"
>energetic charged dust cloud.  Would that stay in a magnetic field better?
> Could we keep it charged.  Wouldn't we have static electricity problems?

My shield wasn't a plasma shield.  I just assumed the ship launched a cloud
of electrostatically charged dust ahead of the ship.  Given the charge.
The cloud would spread out a bit, but wouldn't clump up on the ship.  Dust
plowing back past the ship would need to be scooped up before it got out
past the sides, and relaunched forward.

On the other hand your huge frontal area mirrors wouldn't need to worry
about that.  You might even just ignore the shield and assume a certain %
of the mirror mesh will be eroded during the flight, and carry extra
mirrors.


>So much for bolstering my hybid design.  By the way.  From now on I'm going
>to officially call it an ARGOSY class starship.  Since I'll probably have
>nothing better to do over spring break (like relaxing?), I'll see if I can
>improve my design.  Expect to see a lot of ideas borrowed from the Explorer
>design.  I should at least be able to give the group a decent description
>along with a critic of the problems associated with the thing.  Oh, and a
>long list of assumptions as well.

Great!  I was hoping we'ld get a fleet of compeating ship designs!  We can
try to cross link our pages when they are uploaded by Dave.

Let me know if you want copies or help.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
To: Brian Mansur 
CC: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        hous0042 , KellySt ,
        lparker , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 11:34:21 -0500

Brian Mansur wrote:
> 
> Brian 10:15 CT 3/5/96
> 
> >Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
> > Pluto moves MUCH faster than Earth.  Your mirror would quickly move out of
> > the beam.  even if the beam was larger than Earths orbit.
> 
> >David
> >Pluto's mean orbital velocity is 4.74 km/sec.
> >Earth's mean orbital velocity is 29.79 km/sec.
> 
> Why is the mean orbital velocity of Pluto 4.74 compared to a much larger
> 29.79.  Did you get the numbers mixed up.   I'm confused.


Nope, you can even do the math yourself.  I got the numbers
from the LANL solar system web site, though.  Let's see if
we can do this ourselves:

Earth orbits at around 148,800,000 km from the sun, right?
That's a circumference of 934,937,974 km.  It does this
in around 365.25 days, or 31,557,600 seconds.  That gives us
29.63 km/sec.  Pretty close to the LANL value.  I assumed
it was a perfect circle, and it's not.  Okay, now let's try
Pluto.  It orbits at 5,913,520,000 km (around 39.74 AU).
It revolves around the sun once every 248.54 years, or
7,843,325,904 seconds.  The circumference of Pluto's orbit
is 37,155,741,978 km.  That gives us 4.74 km/sec.  Wow,
dead on to LANL's value.  I must say I'm impressed,
especially considering the eccentricity of Pluto's orbit.
I assume the mean distance value is for an "equivalent circle".
That would explain the accuracy of my results.

David

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Brian Mansur 
Cc: David , kgstar ,
        Brian Mansur , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 11:41:22 -0500

At 10:03 AM 3/5/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
>Brian 9:56 CT 3/5/96
>
>
>David:
>>Just rambling.
>>
>>
>>David
>
>
>Kelly
>>Yeah.
>
>>Interesting point about Star travel.  The whole idea of the radio search of
>>the galaxy is that phyisical star travel is impossible.  So civilizations
>>would have to content themselves with randomly transmiting (possibly for
>>hundreds of thousands of years!), until someone in the galaxy decides to
>>listen and reply.  We have shown that it is possible; not practical yet,
>>but possible.  Given that what civilization would wait hundreds of
>>thousands of years for an answer, when they could just go look for
>>themselves.
>
>>So in a way, we haven't come up with a doable concept yet, but we've done
>>better than Carl Sagen and friends.
>
>Brian
>So how does it feel to be on the cutting edge ;) of starship design?  What's
>sad is that we are the only ones who really look at this problem from at
>least a semi-real perspective.  And whats sadder is that we're finding that
>we have to be completely unrealistic (by today's tech standards) to think up
>anything that would get us to TC.

Well there have been some serious attempt to do this.  They ran into most
of the same problems.  But, we've stuck at it longer, and are more widely
visible given the web.  So we might keep more discusion going.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Brian Mansur 
Cc: David ,
         Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Brian Mansur , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 11:43:09 -0500

At 10:21 AM 3/5/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
>Brian 10:15 CT 3/5/96
>
>>Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>> Pluto moves MUCH faster than Earth.  Your mirror would quickly move out of
>> the beam.  even if the beam was larger than Earths orbit.
>
>>David
>>Pluto's mean orbital velocity is 4.74 km/sec.
>>Earth's mean orbital velocity is 29.79 km/sec.
>
>Why is the mean orbital velocity of Pluto 4.74 compared to a much larger
>29.79.  Did you get the numbers mixed up.   I'm confused.

So am I.  This does fit with my understanding and exerience with orbital
mechanics.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: Brian Mansur 
To: Brian Mansur , kgstar 
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
        rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 10:48:00 PST


>From Brian 10:40 AM CT 3/5/96

[Much discussion deleted]

>Kelly Says:
>>Thats a very long time to wait around for first initial survey reports! 
 At
>>61 years (2111) you'ld get you first report back from Tau.  If you were
>>that patient, you wern't that interested.  You might as well have just 
done
>>photo recon from orbiting 1000 kilometer telescope arrays.  You'ld get a
>>lot of the data, 60 years earlier.
>
>Brian
>I see where our differences in opinion are coming from.  You and I have
>different ideas as to what a kind of human universe this hybrid idea will 
be
>taking form.  And I admit that it is my fault here because you are sticking
>to the LIT charter and I'm not qualifying my designs by noting that I am 
not
>limiting my technology to what would be available to 2050.  Sorry.

>Kelly
>Thats ok.  Its an old argument in the group.  As I mentioned in those draft
>web pages I sent around (and got no responce to!).  If you slip the time
>table to a cetury from now, you have to start guessing what new
>technologies, and Physcics! will be avalible.  A hundred years ago Fusion,
>fission, relativity, momentum transfer of momentum, and a bunch more were
>not enve theories.  Physisists (sp?) are currently mutering about inertian
>and kinetic energy (i.e. what the hell are they), mater conversion,
>controled distortion of space and time, alternate dimentions, faster than
>light travel, and even freakier stuff.  By 2050 a lot of these mutterings
>will be hardened theories, and our designs will look like a Saturn-V the
>size of a mountain fueled by burning coal.
>
>But, if you don't know what we'll get, you got to plan conservativly.

Brian
I'm hoping that conservative includes future automated industry that makes 
today's automated factories look like how the first English factories do 
compared to today's.

>Brian
>As for using 1000 km telescope arrays to scan TC.  Given the level of
>technology and space infrastructure that I think any of our close to
>workable designs are needing, we would have done that already.
>
>Question.  Isn't there a wavelength resolution limiting how much detail you
>can gather on distant objects. What I'm wondering is whether or not
>telescopes have the same limitations that light microscopes have when 
trying
>to view objects with detail smaller than the wavelength (in nm) of the
>object they are observing.

>Kelly
>The wave length limit would be the same.  We couldn't resolve objects
>smaller than a wavelength of light.  Not that thats a big issue in studing
>interstellar planets.  ;)


[Much more discussion deleted]

>Brian Says:
>If the reflector is construction at Kupier Belt distance, it won't be 
moving
>any faster than Pluto.  That is until we put the mirror into the beam path.
> Then it will slowly accelerate.  With relatively minor course corrections,
>it will stay in the beam.

>Kelly
>Pluto moves MUCH faster than Earth.  Your mirror would quickly move out of
>the beam.  even if the beam was larger than Earths orbit.

Brian
(imitating Homer Simpson's voice) Doh!  Doh!  Doh! Doh!  Doh!  Doh!  Doh! 
Doh!  Doh!  Doh!  Doh! Doh!  Doh!  Doh!  Doh! Doh!  Doh!  Doh!  Doh! Doh! 
 Doh!  Doh!  Doh! Doh!  Doh!  Doh!  Doh! Doh!  Doh!  Doh!  Doh! Doh!  Doh! 
 Doh!  Doh! Doh!

David gave me these numbers
Pluto's mean orbital velocity is 4.74 km/sec.
Earth's mean orbital velocity is 29.79 km/sec.

Are these right?  They seem backwards.

>Kelly
>Then how do you slow down the packaged mirrors without the pathfinder
>rockets?  Or is this the expendable set?  I'm confused.

Brian:
The decel mirrors are expendable.  Again, considering the automation level 
of the civilization necessary just to put together such mirrors and maser 
arrays to launch them, I'm not worried about the cost.

>>Kelly Says:
>>>If the Pathfinders are reflecting the beam off to one side.  They will be
>>>pushed out of the beam in the other direction, and accelerated forward.
>>>Given that the beam presure is strong enough push the ships in the first
>>>place, it would be too strong for the ships thrust against.
>>
>>Brian Says:
>>I'm not sure I understand the last sentence.
>
>>Kelly Says:
>>The beam holds the projected momentum needed to push our obserdly heavy
>>ship.  If said ship isn't in the beam, the reflectors in the beam will 
have
>>to angle relative to the beam.  That will mean that the thrust angles on
>>the reflectors and the receaving ship, will also be angled.  Since the
>>thrust isn't paralell to the beam/course.  The ship and reflectors will be
>>pushed out to the sides.  I.E. off the beam, and off course.
>
> ------------\
>           /
>          /
>         \--------
>
>Brian Says:
>Understood as inevitable.  Here are some ideas I put into an e-mail sent to
>you just a little earlier today which address the problem.
>Begin Excerpt
>I'll go ahead and put a few ideas I had for mirror and ship course
>corrections here.  We could have the Asimov detach its ion drive and cable
>connect it to an edge of the wire mesh sail and the hab section.  The drive
>could then gently pull the whole set up back onto the beam path.   We could
>also, perhaps have the maser array at Sol periodically decrease power to
>allow this tug to do its job without being microwave fried.  We would have
>to do something about shielding the tug, of course.
>
>Perhaps the tug could be a pair light rockets hanging onto opposite sides 
of
> 1000km+ wide sail.  They could have their own shielding and would be in
>excellent positions to do their jobs.
>End Excerpt

Kelly:
>Hanging them on the sails doesn't matter.  The weight after all is in the
>ship, not the sail.

>Given the power levels of the beam, the lateral thrusters on the ship and
>mirror assembly would need to be incredable.  Possibly prohibativly so.

Brian
Are you saying that the power level of the beam will keep us from 
manuvering?  If so, we can periodically turn it off like I suggested.

What we need is a powerful enough rocket, probably ion drives that can 
periodically tug the Asimov, its sail, and the tugs themselves, perhaps a 
few thousand km back toward the beam every now and then.  Lets assume that 
the tug accelerator weighs 10 tons/m, and the drive needs to be 1000 m long. 
 This does not account for fuel because I don't know what that will be: 
hopefully 10ton/m is an overestimate.   Two accelerators will weigh 20,000 
together.  By the way.  At rest, I figured we might put them along an axis 
perpendicular to the direction we want to tugs to tug.

What we need to do is find exactly how many km we'll have to adust over the 
flight.  Then we can find better weight values.  To find the km 
displacement, lets say that for safety, the Asimov is traveling 100,000 km 
to the side of the beam.  Also assume that the decel reflector (during decel 
phase) and the reaccel mirror (durring reaccel phase) never come closer than 
1 AU from the Asimov.  Can anyone do the trig here?  I'll see if I can find 
the time get the numbers myself, but I don't make promises even when 
relatively simple mathmatics are involved.

I also have an idea to add to my mirror paper.  I'll probably reprint this 
next paragraph in it later but here it is anyway.  How about putting a 
Fresnel lens in the path to TC to refocus our beam.  The lens could be of 
the thin variety, although I believe we would have some power losses through 
the lens.

The lens could be launched and stopped at the desired position if we 
attached detachable reflective sail blankets on both sides.  One side would 
reflect maser energy for acceleration.  The other would be the surface 
facing TC to which a decel mirror.  The decel mirror would be like the kind 
envisioned for the Asimov and so would probably be launched separately.  I 
guess this idea would add several more years to our launch time-table 
assuming we only had enough masers and power to launch the weight of 1 
reflective mirror at a time.  By the way, I have little conception as to how 
much this Fresnel lens would weigh and I don't know if it would experience 
acceleration while refocusing.  For aiming I suggest the famous Waveguide 
gyros simply because I don't have any better ideas.

>>Brian Says:
>>>     Some method of periodic or even continuous course correction on both
>>>the Asimov's part and the array's will be required to correct for the
>angle
>>>at which the maser beam must be reflected.  The Asimov may simply angle
>its
>>>sail slightly with the edge furtherest from the Sol to array beam tilted
>>>back toward Sol.  The array will have to use built in rockets, or else
>tilt
>>>from time to time in the proper direction to allow vectorial force to 
push
>>>it back into the center of the beam.
>>
>>Kelly Says:
>>>This might be complicated given the main sail would be curved like a
>>>parachute, not flat.
>>
>>Brian Says:
>>Good point.  Of course the angle of vectorial force will be tiny
>considering
>>the reflector and the Asimov are several AU apart.
>
>>Kelly Says:
>>Oh, I forgot you couldn't do that with the reflectors and get the beam to
>>the ship.
>
>Brian Says:
>Huh?  I don't understand this.

>Kelly
>If you angle the mirrors to counter thrust you back into the beam, you'ld
>be reflecting the beam away from the ship not toward it.  Trying to
>anticipate where the ship is relative to the mirror array would be a
>problem too.  The mirrors obviously can't 'aim' in the conventional sence
>due to the time delay.

Brian
Don't we already have computers that could be programed to reasonably figure 
this aiming problem out?

>Kelly
>You might try a secondary set of sails rigged to provide lateral thrust.
>After all.  Only a tiny fraction of the beam will hit the reflectors (The
>beam would after all be pretty spread out), and only a fraction of the
>reflected beam would hit the main sail (since you can't aim accuratly,
>shotgun the area).

Brian
I'm not sure I follow you here?  I think I need a diagram.

>>Kelly Says:
>> Also targeting on a moving ship when you get a few light months
>>apart is dangerous.
>
>Brian Says:
>See my above question on just how well Kev's gyroes could be adapted to 
work
>for mechanical reflection.  If this isn't solvable for aiming mirrrors, I
>guess its back to the drawing board.

Brian
So does anyone know if these gyros will work.  Kev?  Haven't heard from you 
yet bud.

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: Brian Mansur , kgstar 
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
        jim , KellySt ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Mirrors (first draft)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 10:57:00 PST


Brian 10:50 AM CT 3/5/96,

Thanks for the comments.  I'll try to reply to them in a day or two (I'll be 
busy for the rest of this week on School Club activities and homework).  But 
here's a little something.

[much discussion deleted]

>Brian
>So much for bolstering my hybid design.  By the way.  From now on I'm going
>to officially call it an ARGOSY class starship.  Since I'll probably have
>nothing better to do over spring break (like relaxing?), I'll see if I can
>improve my design.  Expect to see a lot of ideas borrowed from the Explorer
>design.  I should at least be able to give the group a decent description
>along with a critic of the problems associated with the thing.  Oh, and a
>long list of assumptions as well.

>Kelly
>Great!  I was hoping we'ld get a fleet of compeating ship designs!  We can
>try to cross link our pages when they are uploaded by Dave.

>Let me know if you want copies or help.

Brian
A word of warning is that I still have to work with BMP.  I'm afraid that I 
wasn't able to download the GIF program you gave me so all I can do for now 
is send bit demons.  I can do some decent drawings with the bit however and 
I will over the break.  I was wondering if you could compress them and send 
them on to the rest of the group so that their hard drives don't explode.

Glad to hear that you're enthusiastic about the idea.  I'm beginning to see 
already that much of the ARGOSY design will be vague, however.  It figure 
that it will at least have a similar summary as see in my Hybrid first draft 
plus troubleshooting points.

By the way, something I also plan to get to is an e-mail discussing the 
decel problems with the EXPLORER.  Its a great idea if drag can be overcome 
with minimal power losses.  Loading the decel/reacel track is also a pain.

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Brian Mansur 
Cc: Brian Mansur , kgstar ,
        David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 12:50:31 -0500

At 10:48 AM 3/5/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
>>From Brian 10:40 AM CT 3/5/96
>
>[Much discussion deleted]
>
>>Kelly Says:
>>>Thats a very long time to wait around for first initial survey reports!
> At
>>>61 years (2111) you'ld get you first report back from Tau.  If you were
>>>that patient, you wern't that interested.  You might as well have just
>done
>>>photo recon from orbiting 1000 kilometer telescope arrays.  You'ld get a
>>>lot of the data, 60 years earlier.
>>
>>Brian
>>I see where our differences in opinion are coming from.  You and I have
>>different ideas as to what a kind of human universe this hybrid idea will
>be
>>taking form.  And I admit that it is my fault here because you are sticking
>>to the LIT charter and I'm not qualifying my designs by noting that I am
>not
>>limiting my technology to what would be available to 2050.  Sorry.
>
>>Kelly
>>Thats ok.  Its an old argument in the group.  As I mentioned in those draft
>>web pages I sent around (and got no responce to!).  If you slip the time
>>table to a cetury from now, you have to start guessing what new
>>technologies, and Physcics! will be avalible.  A hundred years ago Fusion,
>>fission, relativity, momentum transfer of momentum, and a bunch more were
>>not enve theories.  Physisists (sp?) are currently mutering about inertian
>>and kinetic energy (i.e. what the hell are they), mater conversion,
>>controled distortion of space and time, alternate dimentions, faster than
>>light travel, and even freakier stuff.  By 2050 a lot of these mutterings
>>will be hardened theories, and our designs will look like a Saturn-V the
>>size of a mountain fueled by burning coal.
>>
>>But, if you don't know what we'll get, you got to plan conservativly.
>
>Brian
>I'm hoping that conservative includes future automated industry that makes
>today's automated factories look like how the first English factories do
>compared to today's.

I'm kind of dubious on that one.  You are talking about fully self
replicating machines, constructing power transmitters with billions of
times the power of Earths current electric grid, and and mirrors the size
of planets, all fielded in 50 years.  I'ld kind of think that was a non
conservative assumption.


>[Much more discussion deleted]
>
>>Brian Says:
>>If the reflector is construction at Kupier Belt distance, it won't be
>moving
>>any faster than Pluto.  That is until we put the mirror into the beam path.
>> Then it will slowly accelerate.  With relatively minor course corrections,
>>it will stay in the beam.
>
>>Kelly
>>Pluto moves MUCH faster than Earth.  Your mirror would quickly move out of
>>the beam.  even if the beam was larger than Earths orbit.
>
>Brian
>(imitating Homer Simpson's voice) Doh!  Doh!  Doh! Doh!  Doh!  Doh!  Doh!
>Doh!  Doh!  Doh!  Doh! Doh!  Doh!  Doh!  Doh! Doh!  Doh!  Doh!  Doh! Doh!
> Doh!  Doh!  Doh! Doh!  Doh!  Doh!  Doh! Doh!  Doh!  Doh!  Doh! Doh!  Doh!
> Doh!  Doh! Doh!
>
>David gave me these numbers
>Pluto's mean orbital velocity is 4.74 km/sec.
>Earth's mean orbital velocity is 29.79 km/sec.
>
>Are these right?  They seem backwards.

I'ld agree.   It seems odthat you'ld accelerate out from the inner system
to a slower velocity.  I suppose you might be losing the dif to potential
energy changes.

But I suppose it isn't critical for our discusion.  Assumeing a beam
diameter 40 times the dimeter of earth.  4.76Km/s will still have you cross
the beam in 31 hours.

>>Kelly
>>Then how do you slow down the packaged mirrors without the pathfinder
>>rockets?  Or is this the expendable set?  I'm confused.
>
>Brian:
>The decel mirrors are expendable.  Again, considering the automation level
>of the civilization necessary just to put together such mirrors and maser
>arrays to launch them, I'm not worried about the cost.

I've noticed the cost isn't discused much by us.  Stark raving fear perhaps?

>>>Kelly Says:
>>>>If the Pathfinders are reflecting the beam off to one side.  They will be
>>>>pushed out of the beam in the other direction, and accelerated forward.
>>>>Given that the beam presure is strong enough push the ships in the first
>>>>place, it would be too strong for the ships thrust against.
>>>
>>>Brian Says:
>>>I'm not sure I understand the last sentence.
>>
>>>Kelly Says:
>>>The beam holds the projected momentum needed to push our obserdly heavy
>>>ship.  If said ship isn't in the beam, the reflectors in the beam will
>have
>>>to angle relative to the beam.  That will mean that the thrust angles on
>>>the reflectors and the receaving ship, will also be angled.  Since the
>>>thrust isn't paralell to the beam/course.  The ship and reflectors will be
>>>pushed out to the sides.  I.E. off the beam, and off course.
>>
>> ------------\
>>           /
>>          /
>>         \--------
>>
>>Brian Says:
>>Understood as inevitable.  Here are some ideas I put into an e-mail sent to
>>you just a little earlier today which address the problem.
>>Begin Excerpt
>>I'll go ahead and put a few ideas I had for mirror and ship course
>>corrections here.  We could have the Asimov detach its ion drive and cable
>>connect it to an edge of the wire mesh sail and the hab section.  The drive
>>could then gently pull the whole set up back onto the beam path.   We could
>>also, perhaps have the maser array at Sol periodically decrease power to
>>allow this tug to do its job without being microwave fried.  We would have
>>to do something about shielding the tug, of course.
>>
>>Perhaps the tug could be a pair light rockets hanging onto opposite sides
>of
>> 1000km+ wide sail.  They could have their own shielding and would be in
>>excellent positions to do their jobs.
>>End Excerpt
>
>Kelly:
>>Hanging them on the sails doesn't matter.  The weight after all is in the
>>ship, not the sail.
>
>>Given the power levels of the beam, the lateral thrusters on the ship and
>>mirror assembly would need to be incredable.  Possibly prohibativly so.
>
>Brian
>Are you saying that the power level of the beam will keep us from
>manuvering?  If so, we can periodically turn it off like I suggested.

Well my thought was that the main beam would throw the ship and mirror off
to the side very quickly.  Assuming a 1% lateral thrust, thats a .1 m/s
accell.  You'ld drift 373,000 kilometers and get a lateral speed of 8.6
kilometers per secound, after 1 day.  (Well ok you'ld exit the beam after a
couple hours and stop accelerating.)  Rockets that could push back against
that load would rival the stardrive for powe.  But of couse you can't
thrust laterally without twisting the mirrors (no known material can stay
optically flat over that distence under any load.)

So if everything isn't precisely balenced and trimed you'ld get radically
out of alignment.  If that happens not only do you lose power and have a
hell of a time geting back aligned.  Since the ships could be light months
apart, you couldn't correct your aim for where the ship really is.

>What we need is a powerful enough rocket, probably ion drives that can
>periodically tug the Asimov, its sail, and the tugs themselves, perhaps a
>few thousand km back toward the beam every now and then.  Lets assume that
>the tug accelerator weighs 10 tons/m, and the drive needs to be 1000 m long.
> This does not account for fuel because I don't know what that will be:
>hopefully 10ton/m is an overestimate.   Two accelerators will weigh 20,000
>together.  By the way.  At rest, I figured we might put them along an axis
>perpendicular to the direction we want to tugs to tug.
>
>What we need to do is find exactly how many km we'll have to adust over the
>flight.  Then we can find better weight values.  To find the km
>displacement, lets say that for safety, the Asimov is traveling 100,000 km
>to the side of the beam.  Also assume that the decel reflector (during decel
>phase) and the reaccel mirror (durring reaccel phase) never come closer than
>1 AU from the Asimov.  Can anyone do the trig here?  I'll see if I can find
>the time get the numbers myself, but I don't make promises even when
>relatively simple mathmatics are involved.
>
>I also have an idea to add to my mirror paper.  I'll probably reprint this
>next paragraph in it later but here it is anyway.  How about putting a
>Fresnel lens in the path to TC to refocus our beam.  The lens could be of
>the thin variety, although I believe we would have some power losses through
>the lens.
>
>The lens could be launched and stopped at the desired position if we
>attached detachable reflective sail blankets on both sides.  One side would
>reflect maser energy for acceleration.  The other would be the surface
>facing TC to which a decel mirror.  The decel mirror would be like the kind
>envisioned for the Asimov and so would probably be launched separately.  I
>guess this idea would add several more years to our launch time-table
>assuming we only had enough masers and power to launch the weight of 1
>reflective mirror at a time.  By the way, I have little conception as to how
>much this Fresnel lens would weigh and I don't know if it would experience
>acceleration while refocusing.  For aiming I suggest the famous Waveguide
>gyros simply because I don't have any better ideas.
>
>>>Brian Says:
>>>>     Some method of periodic or even continuous course correction on both
>>>>the Asimov's part and the array's will be required to correct for the
>>angle
>>>>at which the maser beam must be reflected.  The Asimov may simply angle
>>its
>>>>sail slightly with the edge furtherest from the Sol to array beam tilted
>>>>back toward Sol.  The array will have to use built in rockets, or else
>>tilt
>>>>from time to time in the proper direction to allow vectorial force to
>push
>>>>it back into the center of the beam.
>>>
>>>Kelly Says:
>>>>This might be complicated given the main sail would be curved like a
>>>>parachute, not flat.
>>>
>>>Brian Says:
>>>Good point.  Of course the angle of vectorial force will be tiny
>>considering
>>>the reflector and the Asimov are several AU apart.
>>
>>>Kelly Says:
>>>Oh, I forgot you couldn't do that with the reflectors and get the beam to
>>>the ship.
>>
>>Brian Says:
>>Huh?  I don't understand this.
>
>>Kelly
>>If you angle the mirrors to counter thrust you back into the beam, you'ld
>>be reflecting the beam away from the ship not toward it.  Trying to
>>anticipate where the ship is relative to the mirror array would be a
>>problem too.  The mirrors obviously can't 'aim' in the conventional sence
>>due to the time delay.
>
>Brian
>Don't we already have computers that could be programed to reasonably figure
>this aiming problem out?

They could given current accurate info.  But given that the info has to
travel at the spped of light, it would be months out of date by the time
the mirror systems got it.  Given that the actuall rates will varry back
and forth a bit durring the interveaning time (given random flexing of the
sail, and random variations of the beam), and we can't predict what these
variations will be.  The aiming calculations will be precise calculations
bases on very bad information.  I.E. computer generated guesses.  Even
assuming not one unexpected thing ever happens on the ship or mirror.  If
you guess wrong even once.  You're aiming the beam into empty space and the
ship is racing away from where you think it is.

Just to complicate things.  The mirror is moring at a high fraction of the
speed of light.  So relatavistic distortion will distort the beam, mirror,
and apparent space.

>>Kelly
>>You might try a secondary set of sails rigged to provide lateral thrust.
>>After all.  Only a tiny fraction of the beam will hit the reflectors (The
>>beam would after all be pretty spread out), and only a fraction of the
>>reflected beam would hit the main sail (since you can't aim accuratly,
>>shotgun the area).
>
>Brian
>I'm not sure I follow you here?  I think I need a diagram.

----------\
         / /
       //
       \--------

A little hard to folow I know, but you have a secound set of sails
connected to each mirror and sail, angled to the beam shining on them.
These are angled to provide lateral thrust against the main lateral thrust
of the main mirror/sails
..  They would use parts of the beam that pass to the side of the areas that
the mirror and sail would see (yes that means the beam would need to be
huge, which would waste the vast majority of its power.  Probably 99%-
99.99% of it).

Oh, and you have to make sure the cross thrust dosen't distort the
optically perfect surfaces or the mirrors.

>
>>>Kelly Says:
>>> Also targeting on a moving ship when you get a few light months
>>>apart is dangerous.
>>
>>Brian Says:
>>See my above question on just how well Kev's gyroes could be adapted to
>work
>>for mechanical reflection.  If this isn't solvable for aiming mirrrors, I
>>guess its back to the drawing board.
>
>Brian
>So does anyone know if these gyros will work.  Kev?  Haven't heard from you
>yet bud.

Even if the gyros would work, how flat can you keep hundreds of miles of
unsupported (you are in spec) chicken wire being blown down wind under VERY
high thrust loads?

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Brian Mansur 
Cc: Brian Mansur , kgstar ,
        David , hous0042 ,
        jim , KellySt ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Mirrors (first draft)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 12:55:24 -0500

At 10:57 AM 3/5/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
>Brian 10:50 AM CT 3/5/96,
>
>Thanks for the comments.  I'll try to reply to them in a day or two (I'll be
>busy for the rest of this week on School Club activities and homework).  But
>here's a little something.
>
>[much discussion deleted]
>
>>Brian
>>So much for bolstering my hybid design.  By the way.  From now on I'm going
>>to officially call it an ARGOSY class starship.  Since I'll probably have
>>nothing better to do over spring break (like relaxing?), I'll see if I can
>>improve my design.  Expect to see a lot of ideas borrowed from the Explorer
>>design.  I should at least be able to give the group a decent description
>>along with a critic of the problems associated with the thing.  Oh, and a
>>long list of assumptions as well.
>
>>Kelly
>>Great!  I was hoping we'ld get a fleet of compeating ship designs!  We can
>>try to cross link our pages when they are uploaded by Dave.
>
>>Let me know if you want copies or help.
>
>Brian
>A word of warning is that I still have to work with BMP.  I'm afraid that I
>wasn't able to download the GIF program you gave me so all I can do for now
>is send bit demons.  I can do some decent drawings with the bit however and
>I will over the break.  I was wondering if you could compress them and send
>them on to the rest of the group so that their hard drives don't explode.

I'm not sure I can handel BMP files.  I'm sure I didn't send you a program
given that my stuff is all Macintosh, and it sound like you are an IBMer.

>Glad to hear that you're enthusiastic about the idea.  I'm beginning to see
>already that much of the ARGOSY design will be vague, however.  It figure
>that it will at least have a similar summary as see in my Hybrid first draft
>plus troubleshooting points.
>
>By the way, something I also plan to get to is an e-mail discussing the
>decel problems with the EXPLORER.  Its a great idea if drag can be overcome
>with minimal power losses.  Loading the decel/reacel track is also a pain.

Stoping these things is a nightmare!  We can't carry enough fuel (unless
the ships get EXTREEAME), and we can't beam it, because the beam only
pushes one way.

Perhaps we're using these beams wrong?  hummm.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Tue Mar  5 18:17:27 GMT 1996
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	["1826" "Tue" "5" "March" "1996" "10:13:04" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "40" "Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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In-Reply-To: 
References: 
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
Cc: Brian Mansur , David ,
        hous0042 , KellySt ,
        lparker , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 10:13:04 -0800

Kelly Starks writes:
 > >David gave me these numbers
 > >Pluto's mean orbital velocity is 4.74 km/sec.
 > >Earth's mean orbital velocity is 29.79 km/sec.
 > >
 > >Are these right?  They seem backwards.
 > 
 > I'ld agree.   It seems odthat you'ld accelerate out from the inner system
 > to a slower velocity.  I suppose you might be losing the dif to potential
 > energy changes.
 > 
 > But I suppose it isn't critical for our discusion.  Assumeing a beam
 > diameter 40 times the dimeter of earth.  4.76Km/s will still have you cross
 > the beam in 31 hours.

This is the paradox of orbital mechanics.  To go from a faster
smaller-radius circular orbit to a slower larger-radius circular orbit,
you have to accelerate twice -- once to raise the apoapsis of your
orbit, again to raise the periapsis.  So, in other words, yes, your
acceleration goes largely into raising your potential energy rather than
increasing your speed.

An elliptical orbit has a higher orbital velocity at periapsis than a
circular orbit of that radius, and a slower orbital velocity at apoapsis
than a circular orbit of that radius.

If orbital velocities got faster and faster the farther out you went,
how could there be such a thing as escape velocity?  How far out would
you have to go before orbital velocity got close to the speed of light?
It really wouldn't make any sense.

On another note:

Could we all try to avoid quoting huge amounts of each other's letters
only to add a few lines of comment?  It's redundant (I swear there are
now dozens of copies of all the same material from overagressive
quoting) and also very hard to read, as it requires paging through large
amounts of stuff we've all read already to get to the few new items of
comment.  I think it's a good rule of thumb to have less quoted material
than comments in a reply.

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Brian Mansur , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 13:22:15 -0500

At 12:58 PM 3/5/96, David Levine wrote:
>Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>> >David gave me these numbers
>> >Pluto's mean orbital velocity is 4.74 km/sec.
>> >Earth's mean orbital velocity is 29.79 km/sec.
>> >
>> >Are these right?  They seem backwards.
>>
>> I'ld agree.   It seems odthat you'ld accelerate out from the inner system
>> to a slower velocity.  I suppose you might be losing the dif to potential
>> energy changes.
>>
>> But I suppose it isn't critical for our discusion.  Assumeing a beam
>> diameter 40 times the dimeter of earth.  4.76Km/s will still have you cross
>> the beam in 31 hours.
>
>
>I wrote a quick small mathematical verification of these
>numbers. Did anyone get it?
>
>David

Got it!

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Steve VanDevender 
Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39),
        Brian Mansur , David ,
        hous0042 , KellySt ,
        lparker , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 13:24:14 -0500

At 10:13 AM 3/5/96, Steve VanDevender wrote:
>Kelly Starks writes:
> > >David gave me these numbers
> > >Pluto's mean orbital velocity is 4.74 km/sec.
> > >Earth's mean orbital velocity is 29.79 km/sec.
> > >
> > >Are these right?  They seem backwards.
> >
> > I'ld agree.   It seems odthat you'ld accelerate out from the inner system
> > to a slower velocity.  I suppose you might be losing the dif to potential
> > energy changes.
> >
> > But I suppose it isn't critical for our discusion.  Assumeing a beam
> > diameter 40 times the dimeter of earth.  4.76Km/s will still have you cross
> > the beam in 31 hours.
>
>This is the paradox of orbital mechanics.  To go from a faster
>smaller-radius circular orbit to a slower larger-radius circular orbit,
>you have to accelerate twice -- once to raise the apoapsis of your
>orbit, again to raise the periapsis.  So, in other words, yes, your
>acceleration goes largely into raising your potential energy rather than
>increasing your speed.
>
>An elliptical orbit has a higher orbital velocity at periapsis than a
>circular orbit of that radius, and a slower orbital velocity at apoapsis
>than a circular orbit of that radius.
>
>If orbital velocities got faster and faster the farther out you went,
>how could there be such a thing as escape velocity?  How far out would
>you have to go before orbital velocity got close to the speed of light?
>It really wouldn't make any sense.
>
>On another note:
>
>Could we all try to avoid quoting huge amounts of each other's letters
>only to add a few lines of comment?  It's redundant (I swear there are
>now dozens of copies of all the same material from overagressive
>quoting) and also very hard to read, as it requires paging through large
>amounts of stuff we've all read already to get to the few new items of
>comment.  I think it's a good rule of thumb to have less quoted material
>than comments in a reply.


Well it least cut it down to little more then whats nessisary to understand
the comment.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: Brian Mansur 
To: Brian Mansur , David 
Cc: hous0042 , KellySt ,
        Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 12:39:00 PST


Brian 12:35 PM CT 3/5/96
>
> >Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
> > Pluto moves MUCH faster than Earth.  Your mirror would quickly move out 
of
> > the beam.  even if the beam was larger than Earths orbit.
>
> >David
> >Pluto's mean orbital velocity is 4.74 km/sec.
> >Earth's mean orbital velocity is 29.79 km/sec.
>
> Why is the mean orbital velocity of Pluto 4.74 compared to a much larger
> 29.79.  Did you get the numbers mixed up.   I'm confused.

>David
>Nope, you can even do the math yourself.  I got the numbers
>from the LANL solar system web site, though.  Let's see if
>we can do this ourselves:

>Earth orbits at around 148,800,000 km from the sun, right?
>That's a circumference of 934,937,974 km.  It does this
>in around 365.25 days, or 31,557,600 seconds.  That gives us
>29.63 km/sec.  Pretty close to the LANL value.  I assumed
>it was a perfect circle, and it's not.  Okay, now let's try
>Pluto.  It orbits at 5,913,520,000 km (around 39.74 AU).
>It revolves around the sun once every 248.54 years, or
>7,843,325,904 seconds.  The circumference of Pluto's orbit
>is 37,155,741,978 km.  That gives us 4.74 km/sec.  Wow,
>dead on to LANL's value.  I must say I'm impressed,
>especially considering the eccentricity of Pluto's orbit.
>I assume the mean distance value is for an "equivalent circle".
>That would explain the accuracy of my results.

Brian
So Pluto does go slower?

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From: Steve VanDevender 
To: Brian Mansur 
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt ,
         Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 10:44:41 -0800

Brian Mansur writes:
 > So Pluto does go slower?

Yes.  The farther away from your primary you orbit, the slower your
orbital velocity is.

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In-Reply-To: 
References: 
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
Cc: Steve VanDevender , Brian Mansur ,
        David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 10:38:21 -0800

Kelly Starks writes:
 > At 10:13 AM 3/5/96, Steve VanDevender wrote:
 > >On another note:
 > >
 > >Could we all try to avoid quoting huge amounts of each other's letters
 > >only to add a few lines of comment?  It's redundant (I swear there are
 > >now dozens of copies of all the same material from overagressive
 > >quoting) and also very hard to read, as it requires paging through large
 > >amounts of stuff we've all read already to get to the few new items of
 > >comment.  I think it's a good rule of thumb to have less quoted material
 > >than comments in a reply.
 > 
 > 
 > Well it least cut it down to little more then whats nessisary to understand
 > the comment.
 > 
 > Kelly

Which you didn't do above; you left in all the stuff about orbital
mechanics which wasn't at all relevant to your comment.

Please, people, think for a change.

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: Brian Mansur , kgstar 
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
        jim , KellySt ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Mirrors (first draft)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 12:48:00 PST



 ----------
From: kgstar
To: Brian Mansur
Cc: Brian Mansur; kgstar; David; hous0042; jim; KellySt; lparker; rddesign; 
Steve VanDevender; T.L.G.vanderLinden; zkulpa
Subject: Re: Mirrors (first draft)
Date: Tuesday, March 05, 1996 12:55PM

Brian 12:40 PM CT 3/5/96,

>Kelly
>I'm not sure I can handel BMP files.  I'm sure I didn't send you a program
>given that my stuff is all Macintosh, and it sound like you are an IBMer.

Brian
I B an IBMer indeed.  Not that I know how to use nearly half of its most 
elementary programs though.


>Brian
>By the way, something I also plan to get to is an e-mail discussing the
>decel problems with the EXPLORER.  Its a great idea if drag can be overcome
>with minimal power losses.  Loading the decel/reacel track is also a pain.

>Kelly
>Stoping these things is a nightmare!  We can't carry enough fuel (unless
>the ships get EXTREEAME), and we can't beam it, because the beam only
>pushes one way.

>Perhaps we're using these beams wrong?  hummm.

Brian
If that "hummm" means that you have an idea, please spit it out.  We're 
dying here for a cheap decel method that doesn't take at least 50 years to 
set up.  

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From: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
CC: Brian Mansur , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
        rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 12:58:08 -0500

Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
> >David gave me these numbers
> >Pluto's mean orbital velocity is 4.74 km/sec.
> >Earth's mean orbital velocity is 29.79 km/sec.
> >
> >Are these right?  They seem backwards.
> 
> I'ld agree.   It seems odthat you'ld accelerate out from the inner system
> to a slower velocity.  I suppose you might be losing the dif to potential
> energy changes.
> 
> But I suppose it isn't critical for our discusion.  Assumeing a beam
> diameter 40 times the dimeter of earth.  4.76Km/s will still have you cross
> the beam in 31 hours.


I wrote a quick small mathematical verification of these
numbers. Did anyone get it?

David

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From: Brian Mansur 
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         hous0042 , KellySt ,
        lparker , rddesign ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 12:54:00 PST



 ----------
From: Steve VanDevender
To: kgstar
Cc: Steve VanDevender; Brian Mansur; David; hous0042; KellySt; lparker; 
rddesign; T.L.G.vanderLinden
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tuesday, March 05, 1996 10:38AM

Brian 12:50 PM CT 3/5/96

>Kelly
 >I think it's a good rule of thumb to have less quoted material
 > >than comments in a reply.
 >
 > Well it least cut it down to little more then whats nessisary to 
understand
 > the comment.
 >
>Steve
>Which you didn't do above; you left in all the stuff about orbital
>mechanics which wasn't at all relevant to your comment.
>
>Please, people, think for a change.
>
Brian
We all do need to try to cut down on message volume.  We all have only so 
much time to sift through the script to find the relevant info and reply. 
 But for many of us, I think, that same time crunching forces us to give 
some of our documents "lip service" when proofreading.  Bottom line, we'll 
have to be patient with each other, but we do need to try and be considerate 
at the same time.

Personal apologies to Steve who really hated it when I sent a BMP file back 
when I joined the group in January.  

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Steve VanDevender 
Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39),
        Steve VanDevender , Brian Mansur ,
        David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 13:52:40 -0500

At 10:38 AM 3/5/96, Steve VanDevender wrote:
>Kelly Starks writes:
> > At 10:13 AM 3/5/96, Steve VanDevender wrote:
> > >On another note:


> >
> > Well it least cut it down to little more then whats nessisary to understand
> > the comment.
> >
> > Kelly
>
>Which you didn't do above; you left in all the stuff about orbital
>mechanics which wasn't at all relevant to your comment.
>
>Please, people, think for a change.

Actualy I ment to thank you for the orb mech reminder, but forgot.  Sorry a
bit glazed today.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 12:57:00 PST



 ----------
From: Steve VanDevender
To: Brian Mansur
Cc: David; hous0042; KellySt; Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39; lparker; 
rddesign; Steve VanDevender; T.L.G.vanderLinden
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tuesday, March 05, 1996 10:44AM

Brian Mansur writes:
 > So Pluto does go slower?

>Steve
>Yes.  The farther away from your primary you orbit, the slower your
>orbital velocity is.

Brian
Horah!

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: Brian Mansur , kgstar 
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        KellySt , lparker ,
        rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 13:00:00 PST


Brian 1:00 PM 3/5/96

>Kelly
> By 2050 a lot of these mutterings
>will be hardened theories, and our designs will look like a Saturn-V the
>size of a mountain fueled by burning coal.
>
>But, if you don't know what we'll get, you got to plan conservativly.
>
>Brian
>I'm hoping that conservative includes future automated industry that makes
>today's automated factories look like how the first English factories do
>compared to today's.

>Kelly
>I'm kind of dubious on that one.  You are talking about fully self
>replicating machines, constructing power transmitters with billions of
>times the power of Earths current electric grid, and and mirrors the size
>of planets, all fielded in 50 years.  I'ld kind of think that was a non
>conservative assumption.

Point taken.  But I think it is obvious that given what we know now and what 
we are capable of imagining with that knowledge, a currently 
non-conservative assumption is about the best we can do.  Doesn't mean we'll 
stop trying
though! :)

[Much more discussion deleted]


>>Kelly
>>Then how do you slow down the packaged mirrors without the pathfinder
>>rockets?  Or is this the expendable set?  I'm confused.
>
>Brian:
>The decel mirrors are expendable.  Again, considering the automation level
>of the civilization necessary just to put together such mirrors and maser
>arrays to launch them, I'm not worried about the cost.

>Kelly
>I've noticed the cost isn't discused much by us.  Stark raving fear 
perhaps?

Brian
You bet!  Scuse me I have to go to class.

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Brian Mansur 
Cc: Brian Mansur , David ,
        hous0042 , KellySt ,
        Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 13:54:11 -0500

At 12:39 PM 3/5/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
>Brian 12:35 PM CT 3/5/96

>>Earth orbits at around 148,800,000 km from the sun, right?
>>That's a circumference of 934,937,974 km.  It does this
>>in around 365.25 days, or 31,557,600 seconds.  That gives us
>>29.63 km/sec.  Pretty close to the LANL value.  I assumed
>>it was a perfect circle, and it's not.  Okay, now let's try
>>Pluto.  It orbits at 5,913,520,000 km (around 39.74 AU).
>>It revolves around the sun once every 248.54 years, or
>>7,843,325,904 seconds.  The circumference of Pluto's orbit
>>is 37,155,741,978 km.  That gives us 4.74 km/sec.  Wow,
>>dead on to LANL's value.  I must say I'm impressed,
>>especially considering the eccentricity of Pluto's orbit.
>>I assume the mean distance value is for an "equivalent circle".
>>That would explain the accuracy of my results.
>
>Brian
>So Pluto does go slower?

Yup.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Brian Mansur 
Cc: Brian Mansur , kgstar ,
        David , hous0042 ,
        jim , KellySt ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Mirrors (first draft)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 14:12:43 -0500

At 12:48 PM 3/5/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
> ----------
>From: kgstar
>To: Brian Mansur
>Brian 12:40 PM CT 3/5/96,
>
>>Kelly
>>I'm not sure I can handel BMP files.  I'm sure I didn't send you a program
>>given that my stuff is all Macintosh, and it sound like you are an IBMer.
>
>Brian
>I B an IBMer indeed.  Not that I know how to use nearly half of its most
>elementary programs though.

Thats Ok.  Its an IBM.  Your not supposed to be able to use more than the
basics.  ;)


>>Brian
>>By the way, something I also plan to get to is an e-mail discussing the
>>decel problems with the EXPLORER.  Its a great idea if drag can be overcome
>>with minimal power losses.  Loading the decel/reacel track is also a pain.
>
>>Kelly
>>Stoping these things is a nightmare!  We can't carry enough fuel (unless
>>the ships get EXTREEAME), and we can't beam it, because the beam only
>>pushes one way.
>
>>Perhaps we're using these beams wrong?  hummm.
>
>Brian
>If that "hummm" means that you have an idea, please spit it out.  We're
>dying here for a cheap decel method that doesn't take at least 50 years to
>set up.

Sorry, still cooking.  If I get it, I'll pass it on.

Frankly, I have a problem with a system that starts with selfreplication
constructors, generating enough power to fry a planet, beaming it (with
optical precision) over interstellar distences, to mesh structures the size
of large planets.  When you then have to go from there to the complicated
stuff (like stoping, shielding, erosion, etc..) I get the feeling were
doing something wrong somewhere.



Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Tue Mar  5 20:00:31 GMT 1996
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	["1628" "Tue" "5" "March" "1996" "20:54:22" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "30" "Retro-mirror" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Retro-mirror
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 20:54:22 +0100

>>Tims Says
>>That means a longer trip and if we want the same end-velocity, the energy
>>has to be beamed over a longer path.
>>And we are not talking about a little bit more weight, assuming fusion fuel
>>we should at least count with a ship that is 5 times heavier (assuming
>>end-velocity of less than 0.3c).
>
>See Phase 3 of my paper on the second Mars Hybrid (I still have things to 
>transmit about it but that will have to wait till after I've done some 
>homework these next few days).  Basically it says that you launch a maser 
>reflector ahead of the Asimov to redirect the maser beam for deceleration. 
> I seem to recall you making a mension of this idea sometime before I joined 
>the discussion group.  How did that go?

I proposed a flat mirror (since a concave one would need to refocus, which
is too difficult) the main reason why no one (?) liked it was because the
technical ability to make a perfect flat mirror would not be present. So
having a not perfectly flat mirror most of the reflected beam is difussed in
all directions except that of the Asimov. (This assumes the mirror has to
reflect over a rather large distance, somewhere around 1 ly)
Oh yes, then there was another problem: ideally the reflecting beam an
reflected beam would be in exact the same direction, so that means the
Asimov could not make use of the one without using the other (that went in
the wrong direction).
My design was made in such a way that at least the latter problem was solved.

Timothy

P.S. Some of the latter problem is also discussed in some other letters from
yesterday, but I added it for a complete oversight.

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Another new? idea
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 20:54:27 +0100

Since Brain brought up the idea of a mirror again, I was thinking about it
again. Instead of using a flat mirror that seems to have a bad reflection, I
present the refocusing retro-mirror :)

Brian mentioned this, and I'm not sure if he means the same as I do
>Okay, new twist.  Leave the blasted maser beam on full and use power from
>the masers to convert to electricity and let the tug boat ion accelerator
>eat cake (the kind made up of one ion variety of course).   You can tell I'm
>getting frustrated here.

Since I see some possibilities here, I want to repeat and explain it:

In fact it isn't a mirror anymore, we use a maser collector (analogy of a
solar-collector) and convert the whole bunch into electricity. That
electricity is that used to power an array of masers, just like the ones at
the Solar home base. So then we have a neat non diffusive or divergent
retro-beam.

I could imagine that there are more efficient ways of redirecting and
refocussing the beam, but at the moment I only wanted to present the idea to
get some comment about the possible difficulties.

I know, I know the whole array would be heavy. At least it doesn't need to
carry fuel and power generators.

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 20:54:31 +0100

>>I'll tell you right now that it will take you at least fifty years to think
>>up and build the support systems for another faster ship.  Live with 50
>>years or else we don't go at all!
>
>Oh really?  It took less than 50 years to go from the Wright Brothers flier
>to  supersonic flight; or from the first mass market cars to the exodus
>from the cities to the constructed subburbias.  Come to think of it we are
>now celibrating the 50 year of the computer.
>
>50 years is a long time in technology.  Also remember that fifty years
>would put this mission into the 22nd century!  By then phisisists will have
>discovered a lot more tricks then Anti-matter.  They might have thought of
>warp drives for all we know.  (Well actually they already thought of them,
>but have no practical idea how to do them.)
                                              ,
Hmm, didn't I try to explain that warp-drives a la StarTrek would not be
possible (ie. without much time-dilation)?

>If your 60 years patent, you probably aren't interested enough to pay the
>big bill for this stuff.

I don't think that is fair to say, since no one has started such a project
50 years ago.


Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Aliens here, aliens there
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 20:54:36 +0100

David wrote:

>Interestingly, many people say that interstellar travel is
>so amazingly difficult (and we are seeing part of it) that
>it won't be accomplished for millenia, if at all.  One of
>the responses to the Fermi Paradox. But lately I think we'd
>agree that interstellar travel is, in fact, possible, but
>at horrendous cost.  If we had a pre-existing deceleration
>system (i.e. cooperative aliens in the target system),
>however, interstellar travel may actually not be too difficult.
>It makes me think of an area of the galaxy where civilizations
>may arise frequently, and there is some sort of trade route
>set up with masers.  You could travel easily between stars if
>there were lots of aliens around... But, if (like us) you
>seem to be alone, you might be stuck at home.  Interesting
>paradox - if there are places to colonize, you can't go there.
>If everywhere is filled up already, you can go there.

There will be a day that we can deform space-time at will, then
deceleration won't be a bigger problem than accelerarion.

                                          Timothy van der Linden



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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Miscellaneous
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 20:54:41 +0100


I see, both Kelly and Brian writing Kupier and Kuper belt, I think it's
"Kuiper", it's a Dutch name (but an US astronom).

==============================================================================

>> Pluto moves MUCH faster than Earth.  Your mirror would quickly move out of
>> the beam.  even if the beam was larger than Earths orbit.
>
>Pluto's mean orbital velocity is 4.74 km/sec.
>Earth's mean orbital velocity is 29.79 km/sec.

Yes, so the further out the beamingarray is placed the easier it can be
directed.

==============================================================================

Here a wise saying:

Just rambling.
I call it brainstorming.  Thats where ideas often come from.
                                         David Levine and Brian Mansur

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From: Brian Mansur 
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        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 15:06:00 PST



 ----------
From: kgstar
To: Brian Mansur
Cc: Brian Mansur; David; hous0042; KellySt; Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39; 
lparker; rddesign; Steve VanDevender; T.L.G.vanderLinden
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tuesday, March 05, 1996 1:54PM

>From Brian 3:03 PM 3/5/96,

>Brian
>So Pluto does go slower?

>Kelly
>Yup.

Brian
Happy, Happy.  Joy, Joy



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         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Mirrors (first draft)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 15:15:00 PST


>From Brian 3:10 PM 3/5/96

>Kelly
>Frankly, I have a problem with a system that starts with selfreplication
>constructors, generating enough power to fry a planet, beaming it (with
>optical precision) over interstellar distences, to mesh structures the size
>of large planets.  When you then have to go from there to the complicated
>stuff (like stoping, shielding, erosion, etc..) I get the feeling were
>doing something wrong somewhere.



Brian
I used to have the same problem with such fantastic leaps of technology. 
 Remember how I so distrusted Kevin's proposal that he stretch this power 
cord to TC?  Now I'm not only a believer, I'm preaching it.  Amazing what 
we'll believe if only it will let us do something.  Kind of like believing 
in God so we'll get to go to heaven :)

But you are right about there being engineering problems here the size of 
Jupiter (absolutely no hyperboli implied which is really scarry).  Has 
anyone given thought to how we plan on connecting the wire mesh sail to the 
ship without tearing the delicate chicken wire strands?

I've thought up  ideas like bundling the mesh into a tight rim that is 
connected to stronger cables.  Another idea is to rap the Asimov up in a 
ball of mesh with a large radius so that the force of tension won't be so 
concentrated.  I really don't know how we'd accomplish either idea but at 
least these are ideas to work with.

As for shielding.  Where the mirror is concerned, it will just have to 
endure the hazards of space and be repaired as necessary.  Yuck.

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         zkulpa 
Subject: RE: Miscellaneous
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 15:24:00 PST



 ----------
From: T.L.G.vanderLinden
To: KellySt; stevev; jim; zkulpa; hous0042; rddesign; David; lparker; 
bmansur
Subject: Miscellaneous
Date: Tuesday, March 05, 1996 8:54PM

Brian 3:20 PM CT 3/5/96

>Tim
>I see, both Kelly and Brian writing Kupier and Kuper belt, I think it's
>"Kuiper", it's a Dutch name (but an US astronom).

Brian
I'll check it out.

Seems that some in the days of the LIT server ;) left wise saying at the end 
of their messages.  Whatever happened to that tradition?  Probably too much 
time to write it.

>Tim
>Here a wise saying:

>Just rambling.
>I call it brainstorming.  Thats where ideas often come from.
>                                        David Levine and Brian Mansur

My favorite of the wise sayings that I remember reading in the LIT archives 
(doesn't that make LIT sound ancient?!) went something like this:

The meek shall inherit the earth.  Fortunately the rest of us will be 
upgrading to the new version scheduled to come out later this year.

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Subject: RE: Aliens here, aliens there
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 15:27:00 PST


Brian 3:25 PM CT 3/5/96

>Tim
>There will be a day that we can deform space-time at will, then
>deceleration won't be a bigger problem than accelerarion.

>                                          Timothy van der Linden

Brian
Too bad we'll probably all be long dead before then.

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Subject: RE: Another new? idea
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 15:39:00 PST



 ----------
From: T.L.G.vanderLinden
To: KellySt; stevev; jim; zkulpa; hous0042; rddesign; David; lparker; 
bmansur
Subject: Another new? idea
Date: Tuesday, March 05, 1996 8:54PM

Brian 3:40 PM CT 3/5/96

>Tim
>Since Brain brought up the idea of a mirror again, I was thinking about it
>again. Instead of using a flat mirror that seems to have a bad reflection, 
I
>present the refocusing retro-mirror :)

>Brian mentioned this, and I'm not sure if he means the same as I do

>Since I see some possibilities here, I want to repeat and explain it:

>In fact it isn't a mirror anymore, we use a maser collector (analogy of a
>solar-collector) and convert the whole bunch into electricity. That
>electricity is that used to power an array of masers, just like the ones at
>the Solar home base. So then we have a neat non diffusive or divergent
>retro-beam.

Brian
Kevin and I briefing wrote about that idea.  I see below in your message 
that you recognize the problems.  We seem to agree that putting 1E7 masers 
masers on a sail that converts maser beams to electricity would be a bad 
idea.  My first reason was because of the power losses in the conversion. 
 My second second was that weight of the 1E7 masers would be too much for us 
to push, even many a degree of Wattage.  As you comments imply, at least the 
idea is on the board as a last resort.

>Tim
>I could imagine that there are more efficient ways of redirecting and
>refocussing the beam, but at the moment I only wanted to present the idea 
to
>get some comment about the possible difficulties.

>I know, I know the whole array would be heavy. At least it doesn't need to
>carry fuel and power generators.

Brian
We will probably need course corrections to make 100% certain that the 
retro-reflector stays in the beam.  So we'll probably end up having to put a 
load of thrusters on anyway.  Bumber!

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
         kgstar , Steve VanDevender ,
         Timothy van der Linden ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: MIRRORS  (Round Two)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 16:42:00 PST


Brian 4:00 PM CT 3/5/96

Okay.  My first draft for the Mars Hybrid (now renamed Argosy Class) has now 
officially been hulled.  The course correction problems needed avoid the Sol 
beam during decel phase has necessitated that I go back and rework my sail 
and retro mirror design.

I now have two options for the Argosy design's sail.  The first is born of 
the classic concentric mirror concept for the light-sail design by Friedman 
(or whatever the guy's name is).  Basically, the diverging beam is now 
refocused by the retro mirror (thanks Tim for the term retro) onto the 
Asimov's smaller sail.  As noted in the light sail design, there is some 
pressure on the back of the Asimov's own sail.  But the newly focused, 
redirected beam from the retro mirror wins out the push thus giving net 
decel.

(Sound of modest applause at an already well known design having saved the 
day).

Note: We still have to figure out how to correct the retro-mirror's course 
and still keep its shape.  Let's face it, our starships will wander a bit 
and who knows if our maser array might wander off target over the light 
years.

Not wanting to settle for such a simple, though slightly inefficient design 
(what am I, nuts?),  I though of another.  Note that I don't pretend that 
this is a better idea, but I do think we should examine  as many 
possibilities as we can.  Who knows what other ideas this might spark.

Okay, for decel phase, we split the Asimov's sail into two parts (or into a 
washer-like sail with a hole)  to let the maser beam fire between/through.

        Beam
     From Sol
              !
              !
              !
 --------------     ---------------
\    \                /  /
         \           \            /         /
                    \  \        /  /
             A
     
     Asimov = A

     !              !
     !              !
     !              !
Beams From Retro Mirror

The flat horizontal  lines represent the sail and the slants are the 
connecting cables.  A cable will probably stretch between the two sails and 
is not shown for covienince.  By the way, if this ASCII art is not comming 
through, I'm genuinely sorry.  Somehow fonts seem to be different from 
person to person.

Now there would still be some drag inefficiencies on any lines connecting 
the two sails and on the Asimov if we tether it between both sails but that 
might be converted to electricity for whatever uses.  To further reduce this 
drag, I thought about connecting two starship components to the sails, one 
for each sail component and tethering the two sails.  If we do this, I don't 
see how we could make a more than less structurally flimsy circular sail 
while keeping a reasonably reflective shape.

Course corrections are a detail we are still working on.  I'm beginning to 
think that the tugs that I've envisioned elsewhere might be replaced by the 
ion engine of the Asimov.  It could be fired at angles although the exhaust 
would probably be into the sail.  More thought needed.

I noticed that for this sail to work, the diameter would be greater than 
Jupiter's to let the beam through.  ARRGGHH!  On the other hand it doesn't 
have to be as precisely shaped as the retro mirror.  Still not sure how to 
correct retro-mirror's course and keep its shape.  I'm trying to figure if 
there is a way to break it down into components that will reflect at the 
slight angle needed to hit the new rig.

My motivation for thinking up the two sail design was to take give us a way 
of canceling the angular propulsion that the retro mirror and ship would 
experience with my sidesteping of the beam idea while still giving us little 
drag from Sol's maser (that's a long sentence).  I'm beginning to think that 
putting a Fresnel lens midway to TC would help solve the beam divergance 
problem and keep our sail at something closer to moon size.

I also toyed with the idea of having a one-way mirror/sail for the Asimov. 
 I don't know how light we'd have o get a plastic lens for this.  Obviously 
can't use glass.  By the way.  Can we actually make a one way mirror with 
plastics?  If so, how thin?  Also, just to be clear, do microwaves bounce of 
hand mirrors better or worse than wire meshes?

Okay, there's my reworking of the mirror problem.  Let's see what comments 
it gets.

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 23:49:58 +0100

>I also have an idea to add to my mirror paper.  I'll probably reprint this 
>next paragraph in it later but here it is anyway.  How about putting a 
>Fresnel lens in the path to TC to refocus our beam.  The lens could be of 
>the thin variety, although I believe we would have some power losses through 
>the lens.

As far as I know Fresnel lenses are not really lenses, that means they don't
magnify or bundle lightrays.
These "lenses" are constructed in such a way that all outgoing light has the
same phase at a predetermined distance (the "focusing" distance). This way
the cancellation of two waves with a 180 degree phase difference is prevented.
So this method is only valid when normally INTERFERENCE makes de total
brightness different.

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Graphics program
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 23:50:03 +0100

Brian,

Check the following sites, if you can't find any graphics programs there,
you can't find them anywhere. I suggest downloading Lview PRO, that one can
convert and retouch a lot of different imageformats. (You need Windows though)

http://sable.ox.ac.uk/~davids/graphics.html

http://sun1.bham.ac.uk/s.m.williams.bcm/images/viewers.html

http://www.kiae.su:8090/___[Kiarchive_root_directory]


Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Orbit B
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 23:50:07 +0100

>>David gave me these numbers
>>Pluto's mean orbital velocity is 4.74 km/sec.
>>Earth's mean orbital velocity is 29.79 km/sec.
>>
>>Are these right?  They seem backwards.
>
>I'ld agree.   It seems odthat you'ld accelerate out from the inner system
>to a slower velocity.  I suppose you might be losing the dif to potential
>energy changes.

Comparing energy is an excelent way here: The further away from the Sun, the
less kinetic energy is needed to overcome the ever more decreasing
gravitational energy from the Sun.

And if you like formulas, Brian :) 

centrifugal acceleration: v^2/r
gravitational acceleration: G M/r^2

For a stable orbit both need to be equal: v^2/r=G M/r^2 --> v^2=G M/r
So while intuition may leave you in the dark, formulas make reality (sort of).

>But I suppose it isn't critical for our discusion.  Assumeing a beam
>diameter 40 times the dimeter of earth.  4.76Km/s will still have you cross
>the beam in 31 hours.

Yes, but theoretically you could build the beam-array much farther away from
the Sun. I guess the only limit is where the gravitational acceleration of
the Sun becomes less than that of nearer bodies or less than the
acceleration caused by the beaming itself.
Besides that, you assume the array is moving perpendicular to its beaming
direction. Since the array is slowly moving in a circle it could start
beaming at a time where it's own motion is in about the same direction as as
the direction of the beam. This way the perpendicular movement is much less.

>>Don't we already have computers that could be programed to reasonably figure
>>this aiming problem out?
>
>They could given current accurate info.  But given that the info has to
>travel at the spped of light, it would be months out of date by the time
>the mirror systems got it.  Given that the actuall rates will varry back
>and forth a bit durring the interveaning time (given random flexing of the
>sail, and random variations of the beam), and we can't predict what these
>variations will be.  The aiming calculations will be precise calculations
>bases on very bad information.  I.E. computer generated guesses.  Even
>assuming not one unexpected thing ever happens on the ship or mirror.  If
>you guess wrong even once.  You're aiming the beam into empty space and the
>ship is racing away from where you think it is.
>
>Just to complicate things.  The mirror is moring at a high fraction of the
>speed of light.  So relatavistic distortion will distort the beam, mirror,
>and apparent space.

All this is irrelevant, computers could calculate the path far in advance.
Besides that, the Asimov could follow the beam (up to certain limits).

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Orbit A
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 23:50:13 +0100

Maybe a bit late, but I can't keep up with you guys, 40 letters in 1.5 days!

> > But I suppose it isn't critical for our discusion.  Assumeing a beam
> > diameter 40 times the dimeter of earth.  4.76Km/s will still have you cross
> > the beam in 31 hours.
>
>This is the paradox of orbital mechanics.  To go from a faster
>smaller-radius circular orbit to a slower larger-radius circular orbit,
>you have to accelerate twice -- once to raise the apoapsis of your
>orbit, again to raise the periapsis.  So, in other words, yes, your
>acceleration goes largely into raising your potential energy rather than
>increasing your speed.

This doesn't make sense, after accelerating twice you are going faster, and
at the same time you are moving in a slower orbit.

You may mean the same, but I don't follow it. I would explain it like this:
When you are accelerating outwards, you are drifting to a larger orbit, then
after having stopped to accelerate, you are still moving away from the Sun,
but at the same time gravity pulling at your back, and you are slowing down,
so at the furthest point you are moving rather slow. Then gravity will pull
you to the Sun and your velocity starts increasing, untill you are closest
to the Sun and then you are decelerating again. Hence a parabolic orbit.

Comparing stable orbits isn't really a good idea.

Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: IBM vs Mac?
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 23:50:17 +0100

>>Brian
>>I B an IBMer indeed.  Not that I know how to use nearly half of its most
>>elementary programs though.
>
>Thats Ok.  Its an IBM.  Your not supposed to be able to use more than the
>basics.  ;)

We're not going to flame each other aren't we?  ;)

OK, It's bed time here.. I'm afraid to look in my mailbox tomorrow..

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From: Brian Mansur 
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        hous0042 , jim ,
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         rddesign , stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: RE: Orbit B
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 17:12:00 PST



 ----------
From: T.L.G.vanderLinden
To: KellySt; stevev; jim; zkulpa; hous0042; rddesign; David; lparker; 
bmansur
Subject: Orbit B
Date: Tuesday, March 05, 1996 11:50PM

Brian 5:10 PM CT 3/5/96

David?
>But I suppose it isn't critical for our discusion.  Assumeing a beam
>diameter 40 times the dimeter of earth.  4.76Km/s will still have you cross
>the beam in 31 hours.

>Tim
>Yes, but theoretically you could build the beam-array much farther away 
from
>the Sun. I guess the only limit is where the gravitational acceleration of
>the Sun becomes less than that of nearer bodies or less than the
>acceleration caused by the beaming itself.
>Besides that, you assume the array is moving perpendicular to its beaming
>direction. Since the array is slowly moving in a circle it could start
>beaming at a time where it's own motion is in about the same direction as 
as
>the direction of the beam. This way the perpendicular movement is much 
less.

You guys seem to have forgotten that the reason why I wanted a slow orbital 
velocity for the mirror is so that the massive thing  has less momentum to 
overcome when it needs to brake into the beam for reaccel phase.  Because it 
has been stopped in the beam and is now being pushed by the beam, it doesn't 
have to worry nearly as much as falling out of it.

>Brian
>Don't we already have computers that could be programed to reasonably 
>figure this aiming problem out?
>
>Kelly
>They could given current accurate info.  But given that the info has to
>travel at the spped of light, it would be months out of date by the time
>the mirror systems got it.  Given that the actuall rates will varry back
>and forth a bit durring the interveaning time (given random flexing of the
>sail, and random variations of the beam), and we can't predict what these
>variations will be.  The aiming calculations will be precise calculations
>bases on very bad information.  I.E. computer generated guesses.  Even
>assuming not one unexpected thing ever happens on the ship or mirror.  If
>you guess wrong even once.  You're aiming the beam into empty space and 
>the ship is racing away from where you think it is.
>
>Just to complicate things.  The mirror is moring at a high fraction of the
>speed of light.  So relatavistic distortion will distort the beam, mirror,
>and apparent space.

Brian
What do you mean by  that last paragraph?  What kind of relativistic 
distortions are you talking about?

>Tim
>All this is irrelevant, computers could calculate the path far in advance.
>Besides that, the Asimov could follow the beam (up to certain limits).

Brian
That was what I was trying to get my computer comment to say.  Thanks Tim.  

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        hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 17:21:00 PST



 ----------
From: T.L.G.vanderLinden
To: KellySt; stevev; jim; zkulpa; hous0042; rddesign; David; lparker; 
bmansur
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tuesday, March 05, 1996 11:49PM

Brian 5:15 PM CT 3/5/96

>Brian
> How about putting a Fresnel lens in the path to TC to refocus our beam. 
 The >lens could be of the thin variety, although I believe we would have 
some >power losses through the lens.

>Tim
>As far as I know Fresnel lenses are not really lenses, that means they 
don't
>magnify or bundle lightrays.
>These "lenses" are constructed in such a way that all outgoing light has 
the
>same phase at a predetermined distance (the "focusing" distance). This way
>the cancellation of two waves with a 180 degree phase difference is 
prevented.
>So this method is only valid when normally INTERFERENCE makes de total
>brightness different.

All I know about Fresnel lenses is what my textbook (now in front of me) 
says.  Since this is a non-calculus based book, it may be leaving important 
detail out.  The following is a partial excerpt of its treatment of Fresnel 
lenses:

"To focus or to produce a large beam of parallel light rays, a sizable 
converging lens is necessary.  The large mass of glass necessary to form 
such a lens is bulky and heavy; moreover, the thick lens absorbs some of the 
light, and is likely to show aberrations . . . .  Fresnel recognized that 
the refraction of light takes place at the surfaces of a lens.  Hence, a 
lens could be made thinner -- even flat -- by removing glass from the 
interior as long as this was done without changing the refracting properties 
of the surfaces."

Note they are "easily molded from plastic."



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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: RE: Orbit A
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 17:21:00 PST



 ----------
From: T.L.G.vanderLinden
To: KellySt; stevev; jim; zkulpa; hous0042; rddesign; David; lparker; 
bmansur
Subject: Orbit A
Date: Tuesday, March 05, 1996 11:50PM

Brian 5:20 PM CT 3/5/96

>Tim
>Maybe a bit late, but I can't keep up with you guys, 40 letters in 1.5 
days!

Brian
And I'm writing half of them I noticed.  My homework and social life have to 
catch up with me sooner or later.  Expect me to go very quiet at any time.



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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , kgstar ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
To: zkulpa 
Subject: RE: Old RAIR drive system
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 17:27:00 PST



 ----------
From: kgstar
To: KellySt; hous0042; T.L.G.vanderLinden; stevev; jim; zkulpa; rddesign; 
David; bmansur; lparker; kgstar
Subject: Old RAIR drive system
Date: Tuesday, February 27, 1996 1:38PM

>From Brian 5:00 PM CT 3/5/96

>Kelly
>Heres some more text to look over.  Attack at will.  This was what I
>consider the baseline drive system for my Explorer class design.  Untill I
>figured out it probably wouldn't work.

Brian
Ready.  Aim, Fire!

A note to the Discussion Group.  I'm leaving the some of the text in the 
form of Excerpts and other with > signs for my convience.  If anyone wants 
to make a comment on my comments, you should probably delete the excerpts as 
we've had requests to cut down on repetitous volumes of info.  I'm only 
leaving the material in so that everyone can refresh their memory at least 
once on what I'm talking about.

Not that I have a tendency to interchange fuel and RM.  I'll try to be 
consistent but I'm pressed for time again.

[Begin Excerpt]
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
multi-cycle Ram Augmented Interstellar Ramjet (RAIR)

Spring 1995

A drive idea I came up with, and used as the assumed system for this ship,
is A multi-cycle Ram Augmented Interstellar Ramjet (RAIR). It would scoop
up reaction mass from interstellar space like a pure ram scoop, but it
would only use it as reaction mass, not fuel. But the scoop system could
simultaneously scoop up fuel thrown ahead of the ship by a fixed launcher
back in our solar system.

The system is basically an electromagnetic accelerator running through the
core of the ship, powered by onboard fusion reactors. The accelerator could
accelerate scooped-up interstellar matter (or ram flow), or reaction mass
carried in the ship. Again, this kind of system is different from a true
Bussard ramscoop drive in that the ram flow is not fused for power. Indeed,
it normally isn't even slowed down. The engine functions in various ways at
various speeds.
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
[End Excerpt]

Brian
Okay, this basically says that you overcome drag by not slowing the RM when 
you run into.  We still need numbers on the power required to ionize the RM. 
 I have the feeling that it will be way over what we can produce with our 
fusion powerplants.  This says nothing about how much fusion fuel we'd have 
to carry.

[Begin Excerpt]
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Acceleration To InterStellar Cruise

[Text deleted]

The idea I came up with to get around this fuel problem is to launch the
fuel ahead of the ship with orbital accelerators (thus the externally
fueled part of the name). The accelerators back home throw out HUGE
quantities of frozen pellets of whatever fusion fuel is selected, in the
path of the ship (called the acceleration track). The fuel is launched at
measured and timed speeds, so that the ship will encounter a fairly steady
stream of fuel during its run down the fuel loaded acceleration track.
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
[End Excerpt]

Problem here.  You want to accelerate HUGE quantities of fuel and RM up to 
at least 1/3c.  Where do you get the power for this?  To do it you'd need 
 almost if not more power than a maser array would (groan).

>As the ship accelerates, it catches up with fuel going at increasing 
speeds,
>but always at speeds slightly slower than the ship itself.

Let me see if I understand something here.  You are laying a track of fuel 
that runs slow at first.  Then you plan on having the ship catch up to 
faster RM as you accelerate.  Have you laid the whole track out before you 
launched.  If so, you'd have to fire slower RM pellets first, then the 
faster moving pellets.  If this is done all along a straight track, you may 
have some fuel bumping into slower fuel.

Also, the rate of fuel launching increases as  you have to launch  higher 
velocity fuel.  Otherwise your faster fuel speeds ahead of the slower 
pellets and the Asimov can't accelerate fast enough to catch up.  Also, if 
it tries to accelerate too fast in a fuel stream with predetermined 
velocities along any given part of the stream, you start to get drag.

I have to stop now but I'll try to get you guys a solution that I worked on 
a while back.

From popserver Wed Mar  6 02:31:39 GMT 1996
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	["2326" "Tue" "5" "March" "1996" "21:25:36" "-0600" "L. Parker" "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com" nil "45" "Re: ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 18:28:05 -0800 (PST)
Received: from destin.gulfnet.com.gulfnet.com (p21.gnt.com [204.49.68.22]) by hurricane.gnt.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA26054; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:26:08 -0600
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X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4b11 (32)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: "L. Parker" 
To: KellySt@aol.com
Cc: David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, stevev@efn.org,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re: 
>Several groups are.  Problem is NASA can't decide if it really wants a new
>launcher built that will make the shuttle look stupid (even if it saves the
>agencies bacon), or just try to twist things into a long term technology
>study.
>
>X34 start as a com,pany program that wanted to use NASA test equip.  Then
>NASA took it over and opened it up for a sham compatative bid.  That awarded
>it to the origional companies.  Then NASA tried to take it over and redefine
>it the way they wanted it to be done.  The companies got madder and madder.
> Then decided it was 'uneconomical'.
>
>The X-33 SSTO program (which is the expected shuttle and expendable
>replacement) is having similart problems with NASA, but NASA can't afford to
>have it fail.  But they may want it to even at the cost of the agency.  But
>if NASA is destryied, there's noone else to prevent private launch services,
>so that market should incresse a lot.
>
>
That is only part of the problem. The original mission of the X-34 as
defined by the companies that were involved was problematically doable.
Unfortuneately, as NASA became more involved with the program, the mission
paramaters began to change unders NASA'a influence to encompass more amd
more requirements until the companies realized that they could not meet all
of the requirements with the X-34 and still realize a commercially useful
launch vehicle. 

In other words, Dr. Jekyl became Mr. Hyde...then in a fit of remorse, killed
himself.

Although this same scenario can happen to the X-33, it is not as likely. Or
at least it wasn't until the X-34 was cancelled. Now that the X-34 program
is gone, the many headed hydra may cast elsewhere for fresh victims...

I agree that NASA needs to be removed from the commercial launch picture.
Unless and until we have a large, robust commercial space presence, all our
plans will come to naught.

Lee Parker
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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From: "L. Parker" 
To: Brian Mansur 
Cc: David , hous0042,
        KellySt , lparker ,
        rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 21:39:55 -0600

At 10:48 AM 3/5/96 PST, you wrote:

>
>>>Kelly Says:
>>>>If the Pathfinders are reflecting the beam off to one side.  They will be
>>>>pushed out of the beam in the other direction, and accelerated forward.
>>>>Given that the beam presure is strong enough push the ships in the first
>>>>place, it would be too strong for the ships thrust against.
>>>
>>>Brian Says:
>>>I'm not sure I understand the last sentence.
>>
>>>Kelly Says:
>>>The beam holds the projected momentum needed to push our obserdly heavy
>>>ship.  If said ship isn't in the beam, the reflectors in the beam will 
>have
>>>to angle relative to the beam.  That will mean that the thrust angles on
>>>the reflectors and the receaving ship, will also be angled.  Since the
>>>thrust isn't paralell to the beam/course.  The ship and reflectors will be
>>>pushed out to the sides.  I.E. off the beam, and off course.

I am not going to get into the math, but you CAN tack a solar sail to sail
towards the sun, so what is the problem with using TC? You might have to
have the Pathfinder tack around TC several times in a decreasing spiral, but
it should be possible to decelerate with JUST the energy from TC.

Lee Parker
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From popserver Wed Mar  6 03:28:52 GMT 1996
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References: <1.5.4b11.32.19960306033955.006a4d10@destin.gulfnet.com>
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: "L. Parker" 
Cc: Brian Mansur , David ,
        hous0042, KellySt ,
        rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 19:22:05 -0800

L. Parker writes:
 > I am not going to get into the math, but you CAN tack a solar sail to sail
 > towards the sun, so what is the problem with using TC? You might have to
 > have the Pathfinder tack around TC several times in a decreasing spiral, but
 > it should be possible to decelerate with JUST the energy from TC.

No, please, get into the math.  The only way I know of to get a solar
sail to move towards a star is to let it fall in the star's gravity.
The thrust from a solar sail _always_ has an outwards component, never
inwards.  You can direct the sideways component to do things like drop
your orbit to a lower radius, but you can't accelerate towards the star
any faster than you would accelerate by falling.

Of course, having the outwards component is what you want if you're
trying to brake.  I think in practical terms, though, you can't build a
sail big enough to decelerate from relatvistic speeds, and you can't
spiral in towards the star unless you get below the star's escape
velocity.

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Message-ID: <960305235023_342448071@emout05.mail.aol.com>
From: KellySt@aol.com
To: bmansur@oc.edu, David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, stevev@efn.org,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 23:50:24 -0500

Brian Mansur

>From Brian


Brian Says:
>Here it is: the detailed design I promised (as detailed as I can make it at 

>the moment anyway).  But first: does the "interstellar drive group"
>selection that I now see on my address book  now account for everyone in 
the
>discussion team?  Okay, on with the show.

Tim Says:
>This "kgstar " address is just Kelly at his work.

True, but I get to mail at work faster.

> Tim Says:
> >And in advance to your next letter, do the mirrors focus the maser-beam or
> >do the reflect it "straight" back?

> Hopefully we can construct them to do both.

Probably not.  If you reflect straight back, the mirrors will be in the
shadow of the ship.  Focusing mirrors the size of countries on a moving
target you cant see, is not a minor problem.

Kelly

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Message-ID: <960305235146_342448267@emout09.mail.aol.com>
From: KellySt@aol.com
To: bmansur@oc.edu, David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, stevev@efn.org,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 23:51:47 -0500

Brian Mansur


 ----------
> From: KellySt
>Brian
> What we need to do is difinitively establish the health risks involved in 
> beaming power via microwaves to Earth.  If it is safe (and the public and 
> congress can be convinced of this), we should have companies falling over 
> themselves to get huge arrays into space where power can be tapped almost 
> twentfour hours a day if the orbit is geostationary.

Politically, trying to convince people that Microwave sats arn't going to
cook them alive.  The ecogroups will play on that to stop the program (some
because they fear it, others because they fear clean power).  The companies
got burned on Nuclear power, and in a world awash with cheap fossil fuels
(which they are allowed to use) they are not going to be interested in an
expensive exotic new power sources.

Kelly

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 23:51:02 -0500

Timothy van der Linden

> >>Yes, I meant fusion. What kind of health problems does renewable energy
> >>have? Are solar-panels also dangerous?
> >
> >Mainly industrial accident problems.  Solar especially causes a lot of
> >induystrial accident per amount of power since its a lot of little
> >distributed systems.

> What kind of accidents should I think of? Exploding batteries,
> electrical shortcuts?

Normal stuff, falls, smashing glass, electrical shorts, etc...  Solar
requires a lot of hands on work out of doors.  It has one of the highest
labor overhead rates of major power systems.  So a lot of folks get hurt.  I
think about 10-20 times as much as coal or nukes.  Also solar has thermal
polution problems.  But no more than most old style power systems.  Well and
a very high expence, but thats not what we were talking about.

> >Renewable is a grab bag term.  So the problems would depend on the system.
> > Bio mass obviously would take up a lot of land and have ecological
impacts,
> >and polution effects from burning.  Wind and tide systems tend to chew up
> >animals that get in the way and take up a lot of relestate, and of course
> >have cronic relyabilty problems (you ever try to schedule a selected wind
> >speed?).

> Now I see what you mean, but how many animals would be 
> killed by pollution caused by dirty-energy? 

So don't use dirt, thou I suppose it (coal) is ironically the one most likly
to get past political problems.  In my old neighbor hood in Wisconson the
folks chased out a Nuke in favor of a coal plant and thought themselves real
lucky.

> I also heard that the number of birds killed by wind-mills 
> does depend very much on where those mills are. It seems
>  that birds have very distinct flying routes (downto 100 
> metres accurate).
\
I heard they like to hang out in tracks with strong favorable winds.
 unfortunatly thats the only place you can put a wind turbine.  

Figures.

Kelly

From popserver Wed Mar  6 06:31:29 GMT 1996
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	["3963" "Tue" "5" "March" "1996" "23:50:15" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "94" "Re: ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:53:05 -0800 (PST)
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Message-ID: <960305235013_342447878@mail02.mail.aol.com>
From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re:  >This is not a trivial mater.  Not only do you need a huge accelerator to
> >decel the fuel down to usable speed (why are we launching fuel toward the
> >ship from a microwave sail ship?  Why not a maser beam to a mini decel
sail?)
> >from a platform being pulled around by the sail.  NOt easy.
> >
> >I think Tims problems are with assuming the fuel launcher will keep
working
> >long enough.  

> Yeps, but then again I have problems with anything 
> concerning this project ;)

Oh yes!  ;)

> >After 15 years in NASA I have very colorfully opionion of our space
program,
> >or lack there of.  But things are coming to a head.  People want to see
some
> >results, and people are starting to realize NASA's been screwing around
and
> >eating up money without producing anything, and that large comercial
> >potentials are being locked out.  Thats anoying people.

> Sounds like Russian circumstances ;)

??  Well were not threatrning to sell our souls back to the british or
anything?  ;)

> >Several groups are.  Problem is NASA can't decide if it really wants a new
> >launcher built that will make the shuttle look stupid (even if it saves
the
> >agencies bacon), or just try to twist things into a long term technology
> >study.
> >
> >X34 start as a com,pany program that wanted to use NASA test equip.  Then
> >NASA took it over and opened it up for a sham compatative bid.  That
awarded
> >it to the origional companies.  Then NASA tried to take it over and
redefine
> >it the way they wanted it to be done.  The companies got madder and
madder.
> > Then decided it was 'uneconomical'.
>
> >The X-33 SSTO program (which is the expected shuttle and expendable
> >replacement) is having similart problems with NASA, but NASA can't afford
to
> >have it fail.  But they may want it to even at the cost of the agency.
 But
> >if NASA is destryied, there's noone else to prevent private launch
services,
> >so that market should incresse a lot.

> Is NASA changing its policies to become a bit more 
> commercial? (I'm a bit lost about what became of the 
> critical time, when the US government had no
> money to pay its employers a while ago.) I also remember
>  you changing jobs.

NASA's supposed to be handing over busness to comercial firms and triming its
own staffs down. In the old days they'ld try to build a custom craft for the
own use then hunt down and crush potential competitors.  Now they don't have
the money to do that.  So they are trying to become partners with industry.
 They aren't very good at it yet.

The federal worker latoff was just a argument between the new congress and
the president.  The new guys got voted in to do big changes, and the highest
on their voters wish list was balencing the budget, and shrink the size of
the government.  Our president said he wanted to do that, but refused to
participate or sign the budgets.  So after a few months Congress refused to
authorise fund extensions without a signed budget, or promise that he
(president) would seriously work toward one.  He said yes, they opened gov.
 He didn't follow through, they closed gove.  After a few weeks they gave up,
and the government is runing without an official budget.

For the workers it was a paid vacation followed by a a lot of work to catch
up on.


My problem was different.  Most of the people in NASA centers are contractors
hired to do the work for the government people (much to the furry of the
government, the government people can't even attempt to do the jobs
themselves).  Every few years these contracts are let out for competative
bids by other companies.  My company lost, but the winner offered me a job.
 But then NASA decided, after awarding the contract, to change the contract
to only have a third as many people.  Since I was a senior person I was more
expensive, so they canceled their job offer (two weeks before I was supoose
to start!  Happy thanksgiving holiday for me!) .

Kelly

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Message-ID: <960305235123_342449111@mail06.mail.aol.com>
From: KellySt@aol.com
To: bmansur@oc.edu, David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, stevev@efn.org,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re: RE: Orbit B
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 23:51:24 -0500

Kelly
> >Just to complicate things.  The mirror is moring at a high fraction of the
> >speed of light.  So relatavistic distortion will distort the beam, mirror,
> >and apparent space.

Brian
> What do you mean by  that last paragraph?  What kind of 
> relativistic  distortions are you talking about?

Relativistic speeds cause visual distortions of the space around the ship.
 Effectivly every thing appears to compress to a rainbow of doppler shifted
stars around the ship.  So seeing, and aiming at the ship would get tricky.
 And of course the dopler shit will eat power from the beam.

Kelly


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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Another new? idea
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 23:50:54 -0500

Timothy van der Linden

> Since Brain brought up the idea of a mirror again, I was thinking about it
> again. Instead of using a flat mirror that seems to have a bad reflection,
I
> present the refocusing retro-mirror :)

Hardly worth the trouble of foucusing over that kind of distence.  I mean it
wil be so close to flat you'll never tell the difference.

> Brian mentioned this, and I'm not sure if he means the same as I do
> >Okay, new twist.  Leave the blasted maser beam on full and use power from
> >the masers to convert to electricity and let the tug boat ion accelerator
> >eat cake (the kind made up of one ion variety of course).   You can tell
I'm
> >getting frustrated here.

> Since I see some possibilities here, I want to repeat and > explain it:

> In fact it isn't a mirror anymore, we use a maser collector (analogy of a
> solar-collector) and convert the whole bunch into electricity. > That
> electricity is that used to power an array of masers, just like the ones at
> the Solar home base. So then we have a neat non diffusive or divergent
> retro-beam.

I'ld say that was a clever idea, but since I'm sure I suggested it a couple
days ago and no one noticed, I'll ignore you.  :-P

> I could imagine that there are more efficient ways of redirecting and
> refocussing the beam, but at the moment I only wanted to present the idea
to
> get some comment about the possible difficulties.

Your talking about some heavy power equipment, but you've eliminated the
almost impossible problem of cleanly reflecting the beam.


While I remember.  Wern't you the one that said the momentum of reflection is
greater than the total power avalible if you absorb the power?  How did that
work again?

I was woundering if we could focus the beam on a reaction mass for some kind
of plasm brake or something.  But can't remember the equations that were
geting thrown about.


Kelly

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 23:51:15 -0500

Timothy van der Linden


> >> But do we need that much? I know I'm on a hot issue 
> >> here, 20 years ago no one did see the need for computers 
> >> either.
> >> But now that we know what we can do with computers 
> >> we can make a better estimation of what we need as a 
> >> minimum. I've read that the Space Shuttle has less than
> >> 1 Mb of memory (256 Kb?) so that would give us a idea 
> >> of what we need and what we want.
> >
> >Actually the shuttles data limits were a constant problem, even safty
> >problem.

> Do you know why they didn't replace them? Or was 
> replacing them an even bigger safety problem?

No, they just didn't have the money.  Which was why they were using 1960's
B-52 bomber computers with 4K of RAM.   K!

I think they finally swaped tem out for newer computers a couple years back.
 256 K Ram machines!

> >>I didn't know they where thAt save, nice to know though.
> >> Here in Holland we have some guy who is turning an old 
> >> nuclear reactor plant in a recreation palace.
> >
> >??  I never thought they were that interesting.

> He's building a hotel inside it, with a restaurant, a bowling 
> area and probably a swimming pool where the core was 
> previousely.

Wild!  Here in the U.S. he'ld be draged out in the street and hung for making
Nukes look non-demonic.

Kelly

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Orbit B
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 23:51:15 -0500

Timothy van der Linden

>Kelly
> >But I suppose it isn't critical for our discusion.  Assumeing a beam
> >diameter 40 times the dimeter of earth.  4.76Km/s will still have you
cross
> >the beam in 31 hours.

> Yes, but theoretically you could build the beam-array much farther away
from
> the Sun. I guess the only limit is where the gravitational acceleration of
> the Sun becomes less than that of nearer bodies or less than the
> acceleration caused by the beaming itself.

Which means you lose the beam in the middle of no where?

Anyway for the system to work the beam reflectors would need to hold place
for years.  Which orbital mechanics wouldn't allow.

The problem of the beam push on the other hand is critical, and I'm surprised
I didn't think of this (maybe this cold is worse than I think?).  The
reflectors would be boosting at 10 m/s/s from the beam. FGorget about orbits.
 You won't even say in the star system!

> Besides that, you assume the array is moving perpendicular to its beaming
> direction. Since the array is slowly moving in a circle it could start
> beaming at a time where it's own motion is in about the same direction as
as
> the direction of the beam. This way the perpendicular movement is much
less.

That would make for trickier orbital choices, and still.  Could that keep you
in the beam for years?

> >>Don't we already have computers that could be programed to reasonably
figure
> >>this aiming problem out?
> >
> >They could given current accurate info.  But given that the info has to
> >travel at the spped of light, it would be months out of date by the time
> >the mirror systems got it.  Given that the actuall rates will varry back
> >and forth a bit durring the interveaning time (given random flexing of the
> >sail, and random variations of the beam), and we can't predict what these
> >variations will be.  The aiming calculations will be precise calculations
> >bases on very bad information.  I.E. computer generated guesses.  Even
> >assuming not one unexpected thing ever happens on the ship or mirror.  If
> >you guess wrong even once.  You're aiming the beam into empty space and
the
> >ship is racing away from where you think it is.
>
> >Just to complicate things.  The mirror is moring at a high fraction of the
> >speed of light.  So relatavistic distortion will distort the beam, mirror,
> >and apparent space.

> All this is irrelevant, computers could calculate the path far in advance.
> Besides that, the Asimov could follow the beam (up to certain limits).


Ha, you have a lot of misplaced faith.  Calculations only work when you can
rely on acurate data.  In this case the data would be months old, and we'ld
have no way to know exactly what happend in the mean time.  Any slight
deviation or flutter (inevitable with these huge flimsy structure) and the
ship would not be doing exactly the speeds and accelerations we think it
would.


Follwing the beam might be possible if the angular change was minimal.  But
given the high speeds and accelerations involved I'm suspicious.

Kelly

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: RE: Orbit B
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 23:15:00 PST



 ----------
From: KellySt
To: bmansur; David; hous0042; jim; lparker; rddesign; stevev; 
T.L.G.vanderLinden; zkulpa
Subject: Re: RE: Orbit B
Date: Tuesday, March 05, 1996 11:51PM

Kelly
> >Just to complicate things.  The mirror is moring at a high fraction of 
the
> >speed of light.  So relatavistic distortion will distort the beam, 
mirror,
> >and apparent space.

Brian
> What do you mean by  that last paragraph?  What kind of
> relativistic  distortions are you talking about?

>Kelly
>Relativistic speeds cause visual distortions of the space around the ship.
>Effectivly every thing appears to compress to a rainbow of doppler shifted
>stars around the ship.  So seeing, and aiming at the ship would get tricky.
>And of course the dopler shift will eat power from the beam.

Brian
This this brutal.  We've got a lot of work to do on these designs.  See my 
mirrors round three paper.

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 23:21:00 PST


Brian 11:16 PM CT 3/5/96

Timothy van der Linden

> >>Yes, I meant fusion. What kind of health problems does renewable energy
> >>have? Are solar-panels also dangerous?
> >
> >Mainly industrial accident problems.  Solar especially causes a lot of
> >induystrial accident per amount of power since its a lot of little
> >distributed systems.

> What kind of accidents should I think of? Exploding batteries,
> electrical shortcuts?

Kelly
>Normal stuff, falls, smashing glass, electrical shorts, etc...  Solar
>requires a lot of hands on work out of doors.  It has one of the highest
>labor overhead rates of major power systems.  So a lot of folks get hurt. 
 I
>think about 10-20 times as much as coal or nukes.

Brian
YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING.  PLEASE!  TELL ME YOU ARE KIDDING!
(sound of Brian banging his head against the wall)
We're counting on the lifeblood of our starship (the power) to come from 
HUGE solar arrays.  PLEASE TELL ME THAT OBSCENE MESSAGE WAS JUST A JOKE!

You said there were glass shattering problems.  Aren't there soft plastic 
materials that hold enough form to be good mirrors for solar energy 
collection.

This is a nightmare.

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        lparker , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Mirrors (Round 3)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 23:33:00 PST


Brian 11:10 PM CT 3/5/96

Two Mirror papers in one day!?

Here is the idea.  Perhaps we could have these 10 km wide mirrors focus into 
a mirror aparatus connected to them.  This aparatus could refocus the beam 
and spit it out to the Asimov like a full blown maser.  The mirror complex 
should weigh less than the alternative maser generator hardware (I hope).  I 
wonder if  power losses due to reflection would beat out converting maser 
beams to electricity and then back to maser beams.  The beams would again be 
aimed with gyros.

An advantage of this idea over using the entire mirror for reflection is 
that we aren't using a really huge and really flimsy mirror to aim across 
several lightyears.  Now we are effectively aiming a maser gun that is made 
up of mirrors and gets its maser beam from Sol .  Somebody please tell me 
that this is a good idea that actually might work.  I just heard something 
about solar panel safety from Kelly that really made me upset about where 
we're going to get our maser power.  And I'm starting to run out of ideas 
the starship design (at least the propulsion part of it  :).

To make these mirrors to where they would focus on the maser mirror aparatus 
(give me a name here) they would be angled so that they wouldn't be as 
useful for accelerating the mirror (to get it into position to slow the 
Asimov).  We may need to put a relfelective mirror on the Sol side that can 
be discarded when its decel phase time.

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: "L. Parker" ,
        Steve VanDevender 
Cc: Brian Mansur , David ,
        hous0042 , KellySt ,
        rddesign ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Mirrors (Round 3)
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 96 23:42:00 PST


Brian 11:10 PM CT 3/5/96

Two Mirror papers in one day!?

Here is the idea.  Perhaps we could have these 10 km wide mirrors focus into 
a mirror aparatus connected to them.  This aparatus could refocus the beam 
and spit it out to the Asimov like a full blown maser.  The mirror complex 
should weigh less than the alternative maser generator hardware (I hope).  I 
wonder if  power losses due to reflection would beat out converting maser 
beams to electricity and then back to maser beams.  The beams would again be 
aimed with gyros.

An advantage of this idea over using the entire mirror for reflection is 
that we aren't using a really huge and really flimsy mirror to aim across 
several lightyears.  Now we are effectively aiming a maser gun that is made 
up of mirrors and gets its maser beam from Sol .  Somebody please tell me 
that this is a good idea that actually might work.  I just heard something 
about solar panel safety from Kelly that really made me upset about where 
we're going to get our maser power.  And I'm starting to run out of ideas 
the starship design (at least the propulsion part of it  :).

To make these mirrors to where they would focus on the maser mirror aparatus 
(give me a name here) they would be angled so that they wouldn't be as 
useful for accelerating the mirror (to get it into position to slow the 
Asimov).  We may need to put a relfelective mirror on the Sol side that can 
be discarded when its decel phase time.

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Brian Mansur 
Cc: bmansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         Timothy van der Linden ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: MIRRORS  Argosy Class
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:26:49 -0500

At 4:42 PM 3/5/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
>Brian 4:00 PM CT 3/5/96
>
>Okay.  My first draft for the Mars Hybrid (now renamed Argosy Class) has now
>officially been hulled.  The course correction problems needed avoid the Sol
>beam during decel phase has necessitated that I go back and rework my sail
>and retro mirror design.


===========

>Okay, for decel phase, we split the Asimov's sail into two parts (or into a
>washer-like sail with a hole)  to let the maser beam fire between/through.
>
>        Beam
>     From Sol
>              !
>              !
>              !
> --------------     ---------------
>\    \                /  /
>         \           \            /         /
>                    \  \        /  /
>             A
>
>     Asimov = A
>
>     !              !
>     !              !
>     !              !
>Beams From Retro Mirror
>
>The flat horizontal  lines represent the sail and the slants are the
>connecting cables.  A cable will probably stretch between the two sails and
>is not shown for covienince.  By the way, if this ASCII art is not comming
>through, I'm genuinely sorry.  Somehow fonts seem to be different from
>person to person.

Try a non proportional font like courior.

The washer sail focusing back on a smallar drag sail is a design Forward
used in his Dragon fly series.  Assuming you intended to drop the outer
sail as a retro sail?

>Now there would still be some drag inefficiencies on any lines connecting
>the two sails and on the Asimov if we tether it between both sails but that
>might be converted to electricity for whatever uses.  To further reduce this
>drag, I thought about connecting two starship components to the sails, one
>for each sail component and tethering the two sails.  If we do this, I don't
>see how we could make a more than less structurally flimsy circular sail
>while keeping a reasonably reflective shape.
>
>Course corrections are a detail we are still working on.  I'm beginning to
>think that the tugs that I've envisioned elsewhere might be replaced by the
>ion engine of the Asimov.  It could be fired at angles although the exhaust
>would probably be into the sail.  More thought needed.

Rather than tugs, you could pull in one side of the sail to generate an off
angle thrust.  Otherwise if you tried to push with rockets the sai would
get twisted out of shape, or draged behind slightly.

Of course trying to keep the retro mirror focused, or even out of the
shadow of the ships retro mirror is probably a lost cause.

>I noticed that for this sail to work, the diameter would be greater than
>Jupiter's to let the beam through.  ARRGGHH!  On the other hand it doesn't
>have to be as precisely shaped as the retro mirror.  Still not sure how to
>correct retro-mirror's course and keep its shape.  I'm trying to figure if
>there is a way to break it down into components that will reflect at the
>slight angle needed to hit the new rig.

??????!!!!  Jupiter!

========

>I also toyed with the idea of having a one-way mirror/sail for the Asimov.
> I don't know how light we'd have o get a plastic lens for this.  Obviously
>can't use glass.  By the way.  Can we actually make a one way mirror with
>plastics?  If so, how thin?  Also, just to be clear, do microwaves bounce of
>hand mirrors better or worse than wire meshes?

One way mirrors don't really work that way.  They mainly are not very
transparent, and you make sure only the room on one side has lights on.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
To: Steve VanDevender 
CC: "L. Parker" , Brian Mansur ,
        hous0042 , KellySt ,
         rddesign ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 09:57:25 -0500

Steve VanDevender wrote:
> 
> L. Parker writes:
>  > I am not going to get into the math, but you CAN tack a solar sail to sail
>  > towards the sun, so what is the problem with using TC? You might have to
>  > have the Pathfinder tack around TC several times in a decreasing spiral, but
>  > it should be possible to decelerate with JUST the energy from TC.
> 
> No, please, get into the math.  The only way I know of to get a solar
> sail to move towards a star is to let it fall in the star's gravity.
> The thrust from a solar sail _always_ has an outwards component, never
> inwards.  You can direct the sideways component to do things like drop
> your orbit to a lower radius, but you can't accelerate towards the star
> any faster than you would accelerate by falling.

This is from 
http://caliban.physics.utoronto.ca/neufeld/sailing.txt

= It might seem at first that the optimal configuration for a
= solar sail is one in which the light hits the sail at normal
= incidence (perpendicular to the surface).  This doesn't turn
= out to be the case, though.  A sail oriented this way exerts
= all its thrust along the line away from the sun.  Because the
= intensity of the light from the sun falls off as the square
= of the distance, the magnitude of this outward thrust must
= fall off also as the square of the distance.  In this way it
= is exactly like gravity.  In fact, putting the sail at normal
= incidence to the sun has the same effect as would have
= reducing the mass of the sun.  It places the sail into an
= elliptical orbit which moves farther away from the sun for a
= while, but must return to its starting point after one
= complete revolution about the sun.  This is not a
= particularly useful configuration.  The only way to avoid
= this with a sail at normal incidence is for the solar pressure
= to exceed the force of gravity, so that the sail goes into a
= hyperbolic escape from the solar system.  In order to do this,
= for the power output and mass of our sun, the sail would have
= to mass no more than one kilogram for every 600 square metres
= of sail area, including the mass of payload and electronics.

[DELETIA...]

= So, putting the sail at normal incidence to the sun is not the
= best configuration.  It is better to angle the sail in such a
= way as to maximize the component of the thrust which is
= parallel to the direction of travel. This turns out to be when
= the angle between the sun and the perpendicular to the sail is
= about 35.3 degrees.  In this configuration the spacecraft is
= being pushed along the direction of travel, and so it climbs
= the gravity well.  In the counter-intuitive realm of orbital
= mechanics, the spacecraft slows down the whole time it is
= climbing the well. 
=
= Well, if the only important thing is the component of the
= thrust along the velocity vector, it can clearly be aligned
= the other way to oppose the velocity vector.  This pushes
= against the direction of travel, dropping the sail down the
= gravity well, causing it to speed up the whole time.  A
= solar sail, contrary to popular belief, can travel sunward
= just as easily as it can travel anti-sunward.

David

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From: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
To: Steve VanDevender 
CC: "L. Parker" , Brian Mansur ,
        hous0042 , KellySt ,
         rddesign ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 09:58:09 -0500

Steve VanDevender wrote:
> trying to brake.  I think in practical terms, though, you can't build a
> sail big enough to decelerate from relatvistic speeds

Of course, THIS is the most important point.

David

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Brian Mansur 
Cc: bmansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , kgstar ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: RE: Old RAIR drive system
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 11:45:08 -0500

At 5:27 PM 3/5/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
> ----------
>From: kgstar
>To: KellySt; hous0042; T.L.G.vanderLinden; stevev; jim; zkulpa; rddesign;
>David; bmansur; lparker; kgstar
>Subject: Old RAIR drive system
>Date: Tuesday, February 27, 1996 1:38PM
>
>>From Brian 5:00 PM CT 3/5/96
>
>>Kelly
>>Heres some more text to look over.  Attack at will.  This was what I
>>consider the baseline drive system for my Explorer class design.  Untill I
>>figured out it probably wouldn't work.
>
>Brian
>Ready.  Aim, Fire!
>
>[Begin Excerpt]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>multi-cycle Ram Augmented Interstellar Ramjet (RAIR)
>
>Spring 1995
>
>A drive idea I came up with, and used as the assumed system for this ship,
>is A multi-cycle Ram Augmented Interstellar Ramjet (RAIR). It would scoop
>up reaction mass from interstellar space like a pure ram scoop, but it
>would only use it as reaction mass, not fuel. But the scoop system could
>simultaneously scoop up fuel thrown ahead of the ship by a fixed launcher
>back in our solar system.
>
>The system is basically an electromagnetic accelerator running through the
>core of the ship, powered by onboard fusion reactors. The accelerator could
>accelerate scooped-up interstellar matter (or ram flow), or reaction mass
>carried in the ship. Again, this kind of system is different from a true
>Bussard ramscoop drive in that the ram flow is not fused for power. Indeed,
>it normally isn't even slowed down. The engine functions in various ways at
>various speeds.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>[End Excerpt]
>
>Brian
>Okay, this basically says that you overcome drag by not slowing the RM when
>you run into.  We still need numbers on the power required to ionize the RM.
> I have the feeling that it will be way over what we can produce with our
>fusion powerplants.  This says nothing about how much fusion fuel we'd have
>to carry.

Unfortunatly, the best info we have is that there isn't enough reaction
mass in space to make this desirable.  So I never worked it out to that
level.  I'ld drop it, but it is an interesting class of drive systems.

>[Begin Excerpt]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Acceleration To InterStellar Cruise
>
>[Text deleted]
>
>The idea I came up with to get around this fuel problem is to launch the
>fuel ahead of the ship with orbital accelerators (thus the externally
>fueled part of the name). The accelerators back home throw out HUGE
>quantities of frozen pellets of whatever fusion fuel is selected, in the
>path of the ship (called the acceleration track). The fuel is launched at
>measured and timed speeds, so that the ship will encounter a fairly steady
>stream of fuel during its run down the fuel loaded acceleration track.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>[End Excerpt]
>
>Problem here.  You want to accelerate HUGE quantities of fuel and RM up to
>at least 1/3c.  Where do you get the power for this?  To do it you'd need
> almost if not more power than a maser array would (groan).

In this system the 'huge' comment was assuming we'ld throw out enough
excess so that some fraction (i.e. enough to run the ship) would be close
enough to the ships course for it to scoop up.  I haven't worked up the
power numbers yet.  Mass numbers would depend on the recovery %.  But
compared to the weight of onboard fuel needed to do the same, its fairly
light.  Say 50-100 times the loaded ships mass.

Frankly I don't know if the sun makes puts out enough power to run the
masers! ;)

>>As the ship accelerates, it catches up with fuel going at increasing
>speeds,
>>but always at speeds slightly slower than the ship itself.
>
>Let me see if I understand something here.  You are laying a track of fuel
>that runs slow at first.  Then you plan on having the ship catch up to
>faster RM as you accelerate.  Have you laid the whole track out before you
>launched.  If so, you'd have to fire slower RM pellets first, then the
>faster moving pellets.  If this is done all along a straight track, you may
>have some fuel bumping into slower fuel.

You start out launching slower fuel and add faster and faster fuel as the
ship accelerates.  The launcher has to throw it ahead of the ship, but not
so soon that the ship couldn't catch up with it untill the ship was going
to fast to pick it up.  Nor so late that the fuel wouldn't catch up with
the ship.

Fuel packets/canisters could hit one another, but that should be infrequent
enough so we don't lose unacceptable amounts of fuel.


>Also, the rate of fuel launching increases as  you have to launch  higher
>velocity fuel.  Otherwise your faster fuel speeds ahead of the slower
>pellets and the Asimov can't accelerate fast enough to catch up.  Also, if
>it tries to accelerate too fast in a fuel stream with predetermined
>velocities along any given part of the stream, you start to get drag.

I'm not sure I follow this part.  Did I answer it above?

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: Steve VanDevender 
To: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
Cc: Steve VanDevender ,
        "L. Parker" ,
        Brian Mansur , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 10:51:21 -0800

 > = Well, if the only important thing is the component of the
 > = thrust along the velocity vector, it can clearly be aligned
 > = the other way to oppose the velocity vector.  This pushes
 > = against the direction of travel, dropping the sail down the
 > = gravity well, causing it to speed up the whole time.  A
 > = solar sail, contrary to popular belief, can travel sunward
 > = just as easily as it can travel anti-sunward.

I wasn't saying that you couldn't move towards a star while using a
solar sail; lowering your orbit is completely possible and the article
is correct.  I was saying that you couldn't use the sail to produce
greater acceleration towards the star than you would get by just falling
towards the star.  You can slow yourself down in your orbit by angling
the sail to produce thrust opposite your direction of motion, but the
limit case is when you have stopped all transverse motion in your orbit.
At that point you are simply in free fall to the star.

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: Brian Mansur , kgstar 
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
        jim , Steve VanDevender ,
        Timothy van der Linden ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: MIRRORS  Argosy Class
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 96 12:57:00 PST



 ----------
From: kgstar
To: Brian Mansur
Cc: bmansur; David; hous0042; jim; Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39; Steve 
VanDevender; Timothy van der Linden; zkulpa
Subject: Re: MIRRORS  Argosy Class
Date: Wednesday, March 06, 1996 8:26AM

>Brian 12:50 PM CT 3/6/96
>
>Okay.  My first draft for the Mars Hybrid (now renamed Argosy Class) has 
now
>officially been hulled.  The course correction problems needed avoid the 
Sol
>beam during decel phase has necessitated that I go back and rework my sail
>and retro mirror design.


===========

>Okay, for decel phase, we split the Asimov's sail into two parts (or into a
>washer-like sail with a hole)  to let the maser beam fire between/through.
>
>        Beam
>     From Sol
>              !
>              !
>              !
> --------------     ---------------
>\    \                /  /
>         \           \            /         /
>                    \  \        /  /
>             A
>
>     Asimov = A
>
>     !              !
>     !              !
>     !              !
>Beams From Retro Mirror
>
>The flat horizontal  lines represent the sail and the slants are the
>connecting cables.  A cable will probably stretch between the two sails and
>is not shown for covienince.  By the way, if this ASCII art is not comming
>through, I'm genuinely sorry.  Somehow fonts seem to be different from
>person to person.

>Kelly
>Try a non proportional font like courior.

Brian
I'll give it a shot next ASCII escapade.

Kelly
>The washer sail focusing back on a smallar drag sail is a design Forward
>used in his Dragon fly series.  Assuming you intended to drop the outer
>sail as a retro sail?

Brian
I'm not sure if we understand each on the last sentence.  This washer sail 
design is ALL part of the Asimov.  The retro mirror has long since been 
launched to position separated.  The whole point  of the design is to let 
the maser beam go between the Asimov sails to the retro mirror.

[text deleted]

>Brian
>Course corrections are a detail we are still working on.  I'm beginning to
>think that the tugs that I've envisioned elsewhere might be replaced by the
>ion engine of the Asimov.  It could be fired at angles although the exhaust
>would probably be into the sail.  More thought needed.

>Kelly
>Rather than tugs, you could pull in one side of the sail to generate an off
>angle thrust.  Otherwise if you tried to push with rockets the sai would
>get twisted out of shape, or draged behind slightly.

Brian
Yes, I'd like to do that if possible.  This is where my limited 
understanding of engineering starts to get on my nerves.  I can give 
theoretical concepts, but I don't know if they can be done from an 
engineering standpoint for lack of classes like statics, calculus based 
physics, and so on.  So I don't know if angling the sail is going to be 
easier than a tug.  Some voice in the back of my head tells me that it would 
be.

>Kelly
>Of course trying to keep the retro mirror focused, or even out of the
>shadow of the ships retro mirror is probably a lost cause.

Brian
See my idea in Mirrors round 3.

>Brian
>I noticed that for this sail to work, the diameter would be greater than
>Jupiter's to let the beam through.  ARRGGHH!  On the other hand it doesn't
>have to be as precisely shaped as the retro mirror.  Still not sure how to
>correct retro-mirror's course and keep its shape.  I'm trying to figure if
>there is a way to break it down into components that will reflect at the
>slight angle needed to hit the new rig.

>Kelly
>??????!!!!  Jupiter!

Brian
We could cut that down considerably with refocusing mirror aparatuses which 
I proposed when I first joined.  That was in fact what my ugly BMP file had 
on it: a very simple diagram to illustrate the point.  Fresnel lenses might 
work better.  Problem is that these things have to be unmanned and they will 
take time to get into place.

>Brian
>I also toyed with the idea of having a one-way mirror/sail for the Asimov.
> I don't know how light we'd have o get a plastic lens for this.  Obviously
>can't use glass.  By the way.  Can we actually make a one way mirror with
>plastics?  If so, how thin?  Also, just to be clear, do microwaves bounce 
of
>hand mirrors better or worse than wire meshes?

>Kelly
>One way mirrors don't really work that way.  They mainly are not very
>transparent, and you make sure only the room on one side has lights on.

Brian
Bumber!

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
Cc: Brian Mansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 14:04:44 -0500

Hi,
A couple days back, Tim ran threw the numbers to show what acceleration a
'fuel packet' would need to get it up to 1/3rd light speed.  Assuming a 100
meter long launcher, the numbers came out at E14 m/s^2  I.E. 10 trillions
G's.  I was obviously upset to hear this.  However that information and a
flip comment I made about the size of a fuel packet ("it could be as big as
a freight car if you wanted") combined.


Laser launcher
Assume the average fuel canister is the size of a 6 meter in diameter
cylinder about 5 meters long.  I think that should hold about a hundred
tons of fusion fuel (6Li?) but of course that would vary.  This canister is
heavily reinforced (you'll see why), and the ends are covered in a thick
plug of reaction mass (could be anything from fiber reinforced ice, to
solid kevlar).  A floating laser 'tug' fires a laser at this plug of
reaction mass.  One quick pulse to vaporise a layer off the bottom.  Then a
heavy pulse to turn the vapor to super heated plasma.  I'E. a pulsed
rocket.  Keep this cycle up a couple hundred times a secound.  You now have
a laser rocket.

Note the canister has no internal systems.  Steering is handeled by aiming
the beam off to one side of the base.  The uneven thrust will turn the
canister, and subsequent pulses will thrust along the new vector.  Range is
limited by the optical precision of the laser.  Given what a Hubble
telescop can do over interstellar ranges.  I'll assume the system can do
this out to 100,000 miles.

So, if you station a laser tug every 100,000 miles or so.  They can take
turns boosting a string of canisters.  Given orbital mechanics.  They will
have to be continuously boosting themselves around to stay acceptably close
to the 'Launcher' track.  (No stable orbits.)  Note that the exact
possition of the tugs isn't important, but they must know exactly where
they and the canisters are.  Given this system the launcher can be as long
as you need at the moment.  If you space them out every 60,000 miles for
100,000,000 kilometers (about a 1,000 tugs spaced from here to Mars.)  The
average G load on a canister exiting at a speed of 1/3rd C, is E5 m/s^2, or
about 100,000 gs.  Which seems reasonably possible for a solid block of
reinforced metal and whatever.


Laser scoop
The ship uses a variation of this to catch the fuel canisters.  The ship
has bow lasers that fire on the back of the canister to boost it forward
and stear it onto the ships course vector.  Assuming the laser booster can
function hiting the base at over 60 degrees from the center line, and can
hit the target at 100,000 km.  The ship can 'catch' a fuel canister over
80,000 km off to the side.  Far better than the scoop systems we were
considering.  Which could increase the the range at which the ship can be
externally fueled.  (Hopefully out to about 3,000 au's, since it would take
that far for the ship to boost to 1/3rd c.)

If we assume a fusion fuel with a specific impulse of 2 million (we might
even get to 2,400,000 if we push it)  the ship would need to receave 5
times its weight in fuel.  To get to 1/3rd C.

I.e.
   100,000,000 m/s  delta V
   ---------------           = 10,000,000 secounds of thrust
        10m/s^s     Accell.

Spec imp of 2,000,000 pounds of thrust/(pound of fuel consumed per secound)

= 5 times total ship mass.

?? Thats a lot better than I was expecting.

Actually we could do better than that, since I wasn't considering the extra
boost you could get using the canisters as extra reaction mass.




Please sanity check this everyone!!  I am feverish!

Kelly


Oh,
When the ships returning to Sol you don't need the fuel accelerated to high
speeds.  So you launch softer canisters largly composed of reaction mass,
probably Ice.  The ship stears them into its path and dethonates them with
its lasers and dust shield.  The ship then rams into the resulting high
temperature plasma with a highly charged bow plate.  The power for the bow
plate comes from leting a fraction of the plasma blow through the
accelerator core.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Wed Mar  6 19:24:05 GMT 1996
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	["4921" "Wed" "6" "March" "1996" "14:17:48" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "137" "Re: MIRRORS  Argosy Class" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Brian Mansur 
Cc: Brian Mansur , kgstar ,
        David , hous0042 ,
        jim , Steve VanDevender ,
        Timothy van der Linden ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: MIRRORS  Argosy Class
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 14:17:48 -0500

At 12:57 PM 3/6/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
> ----------
>From: kgstar
>To: Brian Mansur
>Cc: bmansur; David; hous0042; jim; Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39; Steve
>VanDevender; Timothy van der Linden; zkulpa
>Subject: Re: MIRRORS  Argosy Class
>Date: Wednesday, March 06, 1996 8:26AM
>
>>Brian 12:50 PM CT 3/6/96
>>
>>Okay.  My first draft for the Mars Hybrid (now renamed Argosy Class) has
>now
>>officially been hulled.  The course correction problems needed avoid the
>Sol
>>beam during decel phase has necessitated that I go back and rework my sail
>>and retro mirror design.
>
>
>===========
>
>>Okay, for decel phase, we split the Asimov's sail into two parts (or into a
>>washer-like sail with a hole)  to let the maser beam fire between/through.
>>
>>        Beam
>>     From Sol
>>              !
>>              !
>>              !
>> --------------     ---------------
>>\    \                /  /
>>         \           \            /         /
>>                    \  \        /  /
>>             A
>>
>>     Asimov = A
>>
>>     !              !
>>     !              !
>>     !              !
>>Beams From Retro Mirror
>>
>>The flat horizontal  lines represent the sail and the slants are the
>>connecting cables.  A cable will probably stretch between the two sails and
>>is not shown for covienince.  By the way, if this ASCII art is not comming
>>through, I'm genuinely sorry.  Somehow fonts seem to be different from
>>person to person.
>
>Kelly
>>The washer sail focusing back on a smallar drag sail is a design Forward
>>used in his Dragon fly series.  Assuming you intended to drop the outer
>>sail as a retro sail?
>
>Brian
>I'm not sure if we understand each on the last sentence.  This washer sail
>design is ALL part of the Asimov.  The retro mirror has long since been
>launched to position separated.  The whole point  of the design is to let
>the maser beam go between the Asimov sails to the retro mirror.

???  Over interstellar distences your expecting to  shoot between the sail?
Besides the beam diameter would be the size of jupiter or something, and
fading out to almost forever.  You couldn't make a sail that has a hole
bigger than the beam.

>
>[text deleted]
>
>>Brian
>>Course corrections are a detail we are still working on.  I'm beginning to
>>think that the tugs that I've envisioned elsewhere might be replaced by the
>>ion engine of the Asimov.  It could be fired at angles although the exhaust
>>would probably be into the sail.  More thought needed.
>
>>Kelly
>>Rather than tugs, you could pull in one side of the sail to generate an off
>>angle thrust.  Otherwise if you tried to push with rockets the sai would
>>get twisted out of shape, or draged behind slightly.
>
>Brian
>Yes, I'd like to do that if possible.  This is where my limited
>understanding of engineering starts to get on my nerves.  I can give
>theoretical concepts, but I don't know if they can be done from an
>engineering standpoint for lack of classes like statics, calculus based
>physics, and so on.  So I don't know if angling the sail is going to be
>easier than a tug.  Some voice in the back of my head tells me that it would
>be.

That would just involve SLOWLYYYY!, pulling in or letting out some line on
the right support cables.


>>Kelly
>>Of course trying to keep the retro mirror focused, or even out of the
>>shadow of the ships retro mirror is probably a lost cause.
>
>Brian
>See my idea in Mirrors round 3.
>
>>Brian
>>I noticed that for this sail to work, the diameter would be greater than
>>Jupiter's to let the beam through.  ARRGGHH!  On the other hand it doesn't
>>have to be as precisely shaped as the retro mirror.  Still not sure how to
>>correct retro-mirror's course and keep its shape.  I'm trying to figure if
>>there is a way to break it down into components that will reflect at the
>>slight angle needed to hit the new rig.

While surfing a microwave fire house at near light speed?

>>Kelly
>>??????!!!!  Jupiter!
>
>Brian
>We could cut that down considerably with refocusing mirror aparatuses which
>I proposed when I first joined.  That was in fact what my ugly BMP file had
>on it: a very simple diagram to illustrate the point.  Fresnel lenses might
>work better.  Problem is that these things have to be unmanned and they will
>take time to get into place.

But then you'ld need to aim the refocused beam to interstellar optical
precision.  Also you'ld need to be able to build a freznel lense the size
of a planet and carry it to interstellar space, and have it automatically
center itself on the beam and aim at the target star.

???

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Wed Mar  6 19:44:50 GMT 1996
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	["1593" "Wed" "6" "March" "1996" "11:40:55" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "30" "New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil "New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems" nil nil]
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In-Reply-To: 
References: 
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
Cc: Brian Mansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 11:40:55 -0800

Kelly Starks writes:
 > Hi,
 > A couple days back, Tim ran threw the numbers to show what acceleration a
 > 'fuel packet' would need to get it up to 1/3rd light speed.  Assuming a 100
 > meter long launcher, the numbers came out at E14 m/s^2  I.E. 10 trillions
 > G's.  I was obviously upset to hear this.  However that information and a
 > flip comment I made about the size of a fuel packet ("it could be as big as
 > a freight car if you wanted") combined.

Actually, now that I think about it there is a dangerous likely flaw in
this fuel launcher idea.

Remember a while back when I ran the numbers on fuel-to-payload ratios
for different fuel types?  Remember that hydrogen came out at _minimum_
to need 1,000,000 units of hydrogen to one unit of payload to reach even
low relativistic speeds.

So, suppose we do prelaunch fuel along the ship's track, on the
assumption the ship will catch up to the fuel and can then pick it up
and use it to decelerate.  For each chunk of fuel, how much ship mass
can that chunk effectively decelerate?  Not bloody much if the ship is
travelling at relativistic speeds.  The fuel packet may not be able to
decelerate its own canister down from 1/3 c, let alone any useful
fraction of the ship.  At 1/3 c, you'd have to put more energy into
accelerating the fuel than you could get out of the fuel.

If we could launch chunks of antimatter, it would be no problem.  But
the fundamental problem is that hydrogen fusion is nowhere near
efficient enough to reach high relativistic speeds; even with 1000:1
fuel-to-payload ratios you can't get near 1/10 c.

From popserver Wed Mar  6 19:55:05 GMT 1996
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	["1340" "Wed" "6" "March" "1996" "20:49:37" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "28" "RE: Another new? idea" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: RE: Another new? idea
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 20:49:37 +0100

>>In fact it isn't a mirror anymore, we use a maser collector (analogy of a
>>solar-collector) and convert the whole bunch into electricity. That
>>electricity is that used to power an array of masers, just like the ones at
>>the Solar home base. So then we have a neat non diffusive or divergent
>>retro-beam.
>
>Brian
>Kevin and I briefing wrote about that idea.  I see below in your message 
>that you recognize the problems.  We seem to agree that putting 1E7 masers 
>masers on a sail that converts maser beams to electricity would be a bad 
>idea.  My first reason was because of the power losses in the conversion. 
> My second second was that weight of the 1E7 masers would be too much for us 
>to push, even many a degree of Wattage.  As you comments imply, at least the 
>idea is on the board as a last resort.

Indeed, so far the few alternatives present use energy stored either at the
Asimov or some kind of pathfinder.

>Brian
>We will probably need course corrections to make 100% certain that the 
>retro-reflector stays in the beam.  So we'll probably end up having to put a 
>load of thrusters on anyway.  Bumber!

If the computers of the array detect that the array is moving out of the
beam, they could use some large reflective "flaps" to correct the course. Of
course also a few masers could be used to do that. 

Tim

From popserver Wed Mar  6 19:55:06 GMT 1996
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	["2339" "Wed" "6" "March" "1996" "20:49:42" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "51" "Re: MIRRORS  (Round Two)" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: MIRRORS  (Round Two)
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 20:49:42 +0100

>The flat horizontal  lines represent the sail and the slants are the 
>connecting cables.  A cable will probably stretch between the two sails and 
>is not shown for covienince.  By the way, if this ASCII art is not comming 
>through, I'm genuinely sorry.  Somehow fonts seem to be different from 
>person to person.

I suppose you use a mail-editor in Windows. Windows has two main kinds of
fonts: Fixed type and True type. While True type fonts look much better
their width differs per letter and even per font. Fixed type fonts have as
the name already implies a fixed width, so all characters are just as wide.
(DOS uses only fixed type fonts)
So you may already have guessed it, use fixed type fonts (like courier or
8514oem) if possible, that way everyone can see you ascii art in full glory.
One other question, is it possible to save the options of your mail-editor?

>Course corrections are a detail we are still working on.  I'm beginning to 
>think that the tugs that I've envisioned elsewhere might be replaced by the 
>ion engine of the Asimov.  It could be fired at angles although the exhaust 
>would probably be into the sail.  More thought needed.

If got it, lets use a gravitational lens to focus our beam... (just kidding)

>I noticed that for this sail to work, the diameter would be greater than 
>Jupiter's to let the beam through.  ARRGGHH!  On the other hand it doesn't 
>have to be as precisely shaped as the retro mirror.  Still not sure how to 
>correct retro-mirror's course and keep its shape.  I'm trying to figure if 
>there is a way to break it down into components that will reflect at the 
>slight angle needed to hit the new rig.

Check out this retro-mirror idea, that I proposed 3 months ago:
(hope you can see it with a TTFont)

              Beam that missed the mirror
                ||
                ||
         /      ||  \
     A /        ||    \ B        Two mirrors A and B at a perpendicular angle
     /__________________\        but at some distance from each other
   /|____________________|\
 / ||           ||       || \
   ||           ||       ||
   ||           ||       ||
   ||           /\       /\
   \/          Beams from Earth
Beam to Earth

Although the mirrors are apart, they still would be connected to each other,
only the connections will not reflect much.


Timothy

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Steve VanDevender 
Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39),
        Brian Mansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 15:08:09 -0500

At 11:40 AM 3/6/96, Steve VanDevender wrote:
>Kelly Starks writes:
> > Hi,
> > A couple days back, Tim ran threw the numbers to show what acceleration a
> > 'fuel packet' would need to get it up to 1/3rd light speed.  Assuming a 100
> > meter long launcher, the numbers came out at E14 m/s^2  I.E. 10 trillions
> > G's.  I was obviously upset to hear this.  However that information and a
> > flip comment I made about the size of a fuel packet ("it could be as big as
> > a freight car if you wanted") combined.
>
>Actually, now that I think about it there is a dangerous likely flaw in
>this fuel launcher idea.
>
>Remember a while back when I ran the numbers on fuel-to-payload ratios
>for different fuel types?  Remember that hydrogen came out at _minimum_
>to need 1,000,000 units of hydrogen to one unit of payload to reach even
>low relativistic speeds.
>
>So, suppose we do prelaunch fuel along the ship's track, on the
>assumption the ship will catch up to the fuel and can then pick it up
>and use it to decelerate.  For each chunk of fuel, how much ship mass
>can that chunk effectively decelerate?  Not bloody much if the ship is
>travelling at relativistic speeds.  The fuel packet may not be able to
>decelerate its own canister down from 1/3 c, let alone any useful
>fraction of the ship.  At 1/3 c, you'd have to put more energy into
>accelerating the fuel than you could get out of the fuel.
>
>If we could launch chunks of antimatter, it would be no problem.  But
>the fundamental problem is that hydrogen fusion is nowhere near
>efficient enough to reach high relativistic speeds; even with 1000:1
>fuel-to-payload ratios you can't get near 1/10 c.


I ran some numbers for fuel to ship mass ratios to get to (or down from)
various speeds, depending on the spec impulse.  (I think that was one of
the docs I sent around for review.  1/10th was fairly easy, 3/10 ths became
obsurd without well over 2,000,000 spec imp fuel.  Higher then .3c and you
get a geometric escalation of fuel to weight ratios.  (Which is why I never
consider them for internally fueled operations.)

The fuel launched by the launcher, will take more energy to launch then it
will return, but it will return it on the ship.  Look at it this way, the
microwave beam systems will probably need to beam hundreds of times (maybe
thousands of times) the power that the the ship will catch.  Other wise
there's to much risk the sail will drift part way out of the beam, or into
a weak area of the beam.

We are not going to be able to do this without a fantastic amount of power.
Which means a huge support infastructure.

Lifes tough with those kind of speeds.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
Cc: Steve VanDevender ,
         kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39),
        Brian Mansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 15:15:52 -0500

At 3:08 PM 3/6/96, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>At 11:40 AM 3/6/96, Steve VanDevender wrote:
>>Kelly Starks writes:
>> > Hi,
>> > A couple days back, Tim ran threw the numbers to show what acceleration a
>> > 'fuel packet' would need to get it up to 1/3rd light speed.  Assuming a 100
>> > meter long launcher, the numbers came out at E14 m/s^2  I.E. 10 trillions
>> > G's.  I was obviously upset to hear this.  However that information and a
>> > flip comment I made about the size of a fuel packet ("it could be as big as
>> > a freight car if you wanted") combined.
>>
>>Actually, now that I think about it there is a dangerous likely flaw in
>>this fuel launcher idea.
>>
>>Remember a while back when I ran the numbers on fuel-to-payload ratios
>>for different fuel types?  Remember that hydrogen came out at _minimum_
>>to need 1,000,000 units of hydrogen to one unit of payload to reach even
>>low relativistic speeds.
>>
>>So, suppose we do prelaunch fuel along the ship's track, on the
>>assumption the ship will catch up to the fuel and can then pick it up
>>and use it to decelerate.  For each chunk of fuel, how much ship mass
>>can that chunk effectively decelerate?  Not bloody much if the ship is
>>travelling at relativistic speeds.  The fuel packet may not be able to
>>decelerate its own canister down from 1/3 c, let alone any useful
>>fraction of the ship.  At 1/3 c, you'd have to put more energy into
>>accelerating the fuel than you could get out of the fuel.
>>
>>If we could launch chunks of antimatter, it would be no problem.  But
>>the fundamental problem is that hydrogen fusion is nowhere near
>>efficient enough to reach high relativistic speeds; even with 1000:1
>>fuel-to-payload ratios you can't get near 1/10 c.
>
>
>I ran some numbers for fuel to ship mass ratios to get to (or down from)
>various speeds, depending on the spec impulse.  (I think that was one of
>the docs I sent around for review.  1/10th was fairly easy, 3/10 ths became
>obsurd without well over 2,000,000 spec imp fuel.  Higher then .3c and you
>get a geometric escalation of fuel to weight ratios.  (Which is why I never
>consider them for internally fueled operations.)
>
>The fuel launched by the launcher, will take more energy to launch then it
>will return, but it will return it on the ship.  Look at it this way, the
>microwave beam systems will probably need to beam hundreds of times (maybe
>thousands of times) the power that the the ship will catch.  Other wise
>there's to much risk the sail will drift part way out of the beam, or into
>a weak area of the beam.
>
>We are not going to be able to do this without a fantastic amount of power.
>Which means a huge support infastructure.
>
>Lifes tough with those kind of speeds.
>
>Kelly
P.S.

Opps forgot to add the mass ration numbers.  :(

Specific impulse
 (exaust velocity)
                Speed 50,000,000 m/s (1/6 light
                speed)
                                              Speed 100,000,000 m/s (1/3 light
                                              speed)
   2,500,000 sec
 (25,000,000m/s)
                7 to 1 mass ratio.
                                              55 to 1 mass ratio.
   2,000,000 sec
 (20,000,000m/s)
                12 to 1 mass ratio.
                                              148 to 1 mass ratio.
   1,500,000 sec
 (15,000,000m/s)
                27 to 1 mass ratio.
                                              785 to 1 mass ratio.


Notice the mass ratios vary rapidly with changes in spec impulse and total
delta-V.  Anyway if we can get 2,500,000 spec impulse, stoping the ship
from .3 c is possible given some real good equipment!  But notice how much
more fuel this takes then externally feed mode!

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: Brian Mansur 
To: kgstar 
Cc: Brian Mansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: RE: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 96 15:09:00 PST


Brian 3:00 PM CT 3/6/96

>Kelly
>Laser launcher
>Assume the average fuel canister is the size of a 6 meter in diameter
>cylinder about 5 meters long.  I think that should hold about a hundred
>tons of fusion fuel (6Li?) but of course that would vary.

Brian
What is the density of Li?

>Kelly
>This canister is
>heavily reinforced (you'll see why), and the ends are covered in a thick
>plug of reaction mass (could be anything from fiber reinforced ice, to
>solid kevlar).  A floating laser 'tug' fires a laser at this plug of
>reaction mass.  One quick pulse to vaporise a layer off the bottom.  Then a
>heavy pulse to turn the vapor to super heated plasma.  I'E. a pulsed
>rocket.  Keep this cycle up a couple hundred times a secound.  You now have
>a laser rocket.

Brian
Cutting in here a second.  How about we make the reaction mass out of maser 
sails (many heavy (kg weight) starwisps?).  Problem is how to ionize them 
since they are design to reflect light.

About your idea in the preceding paragraphs.  Am I understanding that the
this plasma vaporizing is used to launch the canister or does it disperse 
the fuel (good idea I think in second case).  Reading further I think you 
are trying to do both.  I don't know that you'd get the canister up to even 
a %c and the exhaust would be going in the wrong direction.  Unless, of 
course, if you were reversing the direction of the canister so that the 
exhaust would head toward TC.  Am I following you?

>Kelly
>Note the canister has no internal systems.  Steering is handeled by aiming
>the beam off to one side of the base.  The uneven thrust will turn the
>canister, and subsequent pulses will thrust along the new vector.  Range is
>limited by the optical precision of the laser.  Given what a Hubble
>telescop can do over interstellar ranges.  I'll assume the system can do
>this out to 100,000 miles.

>So, if you station a laser tug every 100,000 miles or so.  They can take
>turns boosting a string of canisters.  Given orbital mechanics.  They will
>have to be continuously boosting themselves around to stay acceptably close
>to the 'Launcher' track.  (No stable orbits.)  Note that the exact
>possition of the tugs isn't important, but they must know exactly where
>they and the canisters are.  Given this system the launcher can be as long
>as you need at the moment.  If you space them out every 60,000 miles for
>100,000,000 kilometers (about a 1,000 tugs spaced from here to Mars.)  The
>average G load on a canister exiting at a speed of 1/3rd C, is E5 m/s^2, or
>about 100,000 gs.  Which seems reasonably possible for a solid block of
>reinforced metal and whatever.

Brian
What happens to the canister casing (I just looked down the page).  Instead 
of letting  the ship push the pieces to the side, can we somehow vaporize 
the casings with the plasma?

This idea of laying a trail of breadcrums as you seem to be doing and 
ionizing it may have potential (kinetic at least :).

>Kelly
>Laser scoop
>The ship uses a variation of this to catch the fuel canisters.  The ship
>has bow lasers that fire on the back of the canister to boost it forward
>and stear it onto the ships course vector.  Assuming the laser booster can
>function hiting the base at over 60 degrees from the center line, and can
>hit the target at 100,000 km.  The ship can 'catch' a fuel canister over
>80,000 km off to the side.  Far better than the scoop systems we were
>considering.  Which could increase the the range at which the ship can be
>externally fueled.  (Hopefully out to about 3,000 au's, since it would take
>that far for the ship to boost to 1/3rd c.)

Equations and text deleted.

Brian
I don't see how you are going to catch the canister (I admit that I'm 
skimming some of this since I have to do work very soon here).  I'll have to 
reread this idea some more but at least its a new idea.  I still don't see a 
solution for slowing down into TC though.

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: Brian Mansur , kgstar 
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
        jim , Steve VanDevender ,
        Timothy van der Linden ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: MIRRORS  Argosy Class
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 96 15:21:00 PST


Brian 3:10 PM CT 3/6/96

>Kelly
>>The washer sail focusing back on a smallar drag sail is a design Forward
>>used in his Dragon fly series.  Assuming you intended to drop the outer
>>sail as a retro sail?
>
>Brian
>I'm not sure if we understand each on the last sentence.  This washer sail
>design is ALL part of the Asimov.  The retro mirror has long since been
>launched to position separated.  The whole point  of the design is to let
>the maser beam go between the Asimov sails to the retro mirror.

>Kelly
>???  Over interstellar distences your expecting to  shoot between the sail? 

>Besides the beam diameter would be the size of jupiter or something, and
>fading out to almost forever.  You couldn't make a sail that has a hole
>bigger than the beam.

Brian
If we could refocus the beam periodically along the way with several 
refocusing  aparatus it would be possible.  Problem is with energy loses in 
the refocusing and in getting the blasted things in place.  This idea just 
keeps getting more complicated all the time.

>
>[text deleted]
>
>>Brian
>>Course corrections are a detail we are still working on.  I'm beginning to
>>think that the tugs that I've envisioned elsewhere might be replaced by 
the
>>ion engine of the Asimov.  It could be fired at angles although the 
exhaust
>>would probably be into the sail.  More thought needed.
>
>>Kelly
>>Rather than tugs, you could pull in one side of the sail to generate an 
off
>>angle thrust.  Otherwise if you tried to push with rockets the sai would
>>get twisted out of shape, or draged behind slightly.
>
>Brian
>Yes, I'd like to do that if possible.  This is where my limited
>understanding of engineering starts to get on my nerves.  I can give
>theoretical concepts, but I don't know if they can be done from an
>engineering standpoint for lack of classes like statics, calculus based
>physics, and so on.  So I don't know if angling the sail is going to be
>easier than a tug.  Some voice in the back of my head tells me that it 
would
>be.

>Kelly
>That would just involve SLOWLYYYY!, pulling in or letting out some line on
>the right support cables.

Brian
Since we don't want fast movement in any direction but forward and backward, 
and we shouldn't be needing too many or drastic course corrections, slowly 
is good.

>>Kelly
>>Of course trying to keep the retro mirror focused, or even out of the
>>shadow of the ships retro mirror is probably a lost cause.
>
>Brian
>See my idea in Mirrors round 3.
>
>>Brian
>>I noticed that for this sail to work, the diameter would be greater than
>>Jupiter's to let the beam through.  ARRGGHH!  On the other hand it doesn't
>>have to be as precisely shaped as the retro mirror.  Still not sure how to
>>correct retro-mirror's course and keep its shape.  I'm trying to figure if
>>there is a way to break it down into components that will reflect at the
>>slight angle needed to hit the new rig.

>Kelly
>While surfing a microwave fire house at near light speed?

Brian
Yep.  Kind of like riding the flames of hell (sounds like the source idea 
for a demonic quote ;).

>>Kelly
>>??????!!!!  Jupiter!
>
>Brian
>We could cut that down considerably with refocusing mirror aparatuses which
>I proposed when I first joined.  That was in fact what my ugly BMP file had
>on it: a very simple diagram to illustrate the point.  Fresnel lenses might
>work better.  Problem is that these things have to be unmanned and they 
will
>take time to get into place.

Kelly
>But then you'ld need to aim the refocused beam to interstellar optical
>precision.  Also you'ld need to be able to build a freznel lense the size
>of a planet and carry it to interstellar space, and have it automatically
>center itself on the beam and aim at the target star.

Brian
Necessary evils.  We "just" have to figure out how to make them work.  The 
refocusing mirror may be easier to aim because it could be constructed like 
the retro mirror I have in mind in Mirrors Round 3.

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: RE: Another new? idea
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Brian 3:30 PM CT 3/6/96

>Brian
>We will probably need course corrections to make 100% certain that the
>retro-reflector stays in the beam.  So we'll probably end up having to put 
a
>load of thrusters on anyway.  Bumber!

>Tim
>If the computers of the array detect that the array is moving out of the
>beam, they could use some large reflective "flaps" to correct the course. 
Of
>course also a few masers could be used to do that.

Brian
Flaps?  Hmmmm, I wonder how we could rig those without adding too much 
support structure.  Definitely worth considering.  Might be easier than 
tilting the whole mirror.

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 23:13:58 +0100

Brain wrote,

>"To focus or to produce a large beam of parallel light rays, a sizable 
>converging lens is necessary.  The large mass of glass necessary to form 
>such a lens is bulky and heavy; moreover, the thick lens absorbs some of the 
>light, and is likely to show aberrations . . . .  Fresnel recognized that 
>the refraction of light takes place at the surfaces of a lens.  Hence, a 
>lens could be made thinner -- even flat -- by removing glass from the 
>interior as long as this was done without changing the refracting properties 
>of the surfaces."
>
>Note they are "easily molded from plastic."

Ah, yes, I assume you are right, the problem is that I have not a single
physics book explaining fresnel lenses. I only have 2 pages explaining
Fresnel diffraction. These pages made me confused I guess. Now that you made
me rethink this, I see that I was wrong.

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 23:14:03 +0100

To Kelly,

>> What kind of accidents should I think of? Exploding batteries,
>> electrical shortcuts?
>
>Normal stuff, falls, smashing glass, electrical shorts, etc...  Solar
>requires a lot of hands on work out of doors.  It has one of the highest
>labor overhead rates of major power systems.  So a lot of folks get hurt.  I
>think about 10-20 times as much as coal or nukes.  Also solar has thermal
>polution problems.  But no more than most old style power systems.  Well and
>a very high expence, but thats not what we were talking about.

Hmmm, no luck then unless solar panels are build in at the same time the
house is constructed. (I assume that if everyone had it's own generator, a
similar rate of accidents would be the case)

>> Now I see what you mean, but how many animals would be 
>> killed by pollution caused by dirty-energy? 
>
>So don't use dirt, thou I suppose it (coal) is ironically the one most likly
>to get past political problems.  In my old neighbor hood in Wisconson the
>folks chased out a Nuke in favor of a coal plant and thought themselves real
>lucky.

I guess the human mind works in crazy ways. (as if I figured that out a
minute ago...)

>I heard they like to hang out in tracks with strong favorable winds.
> unfortunatly thats the only place you can put a wind turbine.  
>
>Figures.

I wouldn't know that, so can't make any senseble comment.

Timothy


P.S. Kelly would you like me (and the others) to send LIT mail to your job
address?

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To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
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         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Another new? idea
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 23:14:12 +0100

>> In fact it isn't a mirror anymore, we use a maser collector (analogy of a
>> solar-collector) and convert the whole bunch into electricity. > That
>> electricity is that used to power an array of masers, just like the ones at
>> the Solar home base. So then we have a neat non diffusive or divergent
>> retro-beam.
>
>I'ld say that was a clever idea, but since I'm sure I suggested it a couple
>days ago and no one noticed, I'll ignore you.  :-P

I'm sorry but I had no intend to make this idea look as if it was mine, I
just wanted to restate it since, at least I was almost lost in this avalance
of letters.

>> I could imagine that there are more efficient ways of redirecting and
>> refocussing the beam, but at the moment I only wanted to present the idea
>> to get some comment about the possible difficulties.
>
>Your talking about some heavy power equipment, but you've eliminated the
>almost impossible problem of cleanly reflecting the beam.

No, I wasn't reflecting it, I was retransmitting it by using maser-beams.
Doing this I assumed that we could make a maser-array that could direct its
beams accuratly enough. Note that I am using an array loose from the Asimov. 
The energy for this array would come from the maser-energy that came from Earth.

>While I remember.  Wern't you the one that said the momentum of reflection is
>greater than the total power avalible if you absorb the power?  How did that
>work again?

Yes that was me, but that isn't relevant here, I think you have
misunderstood my (or your?) whole idea of "retransmission".

>I was woundering if we could focus the beam on a reaction mass for some kind
>of plasm brake or something.  But can't remember the equations that were
>geting thrown about.

I didn't understand what you want to have, could you restate it?

Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 23:14:16 +0100

>> >Actually the shuttles data limits were a constant problem, even safty
>> >problem.
>
>> Do you know why they didn't replace them? Or was 
>> replacing them an even bigger safety problem?
>
>No, they just didn't have the money.  Which was why they were using 1960's
>B-52 bomber computers with 4K of RAM.   K!

Huh, even 15 years ago 1 Mb of memory would be payable for such a big
organization.

>> He's building a hotel inside it, with a restaurant, a bowling 
>> area and probably a swimming pool where the core was 
>> previousely.
>
>Wild!  Here in the U.S. he'ld be draged out in the street and hung for making
>Nukes look non-demonic.

As I said before sometimes we quite tolerant and liberal here.


Tim

From popserver Wed Mar  6 23:07:36 GMT 1996
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	["2035" "Wed" "6" "March" "1996" "23:14:07" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "46" "Re: ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 14:15:41 -0800 (PST)
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: > Is NASA changing its policies to become a bit more 
>> commercial? (I'm a bit lost about what became of the 
>> critical time, when the US government had no
>> money to pay its employers a while ago.) I also remember
>>  you changing jobs.
>
>NASA's supposed to be handing over busness to comercial firms and triming its
>own staffs down. In the old days they'ld try to build a custom craft for the
>own use then hunt down and crush potential competitors.  Now they don't have
>the money to do that.  So they are trying to become partners with industry.
> They aren't very good at it yet.

Do I hear some irony? :)

>The federal worker latoff was just a argument between the new congress and
>the president.  The new guys got voted in to do big changes, and the highest
>on their voters wish list was balencing the budget, and shrink the size of
>the government.  Our president said he wanted to do that, but refused to
>participate or sign the budgets.  So after a few months Congress refused to
>authorise fund extensions without a signed budget, or promise that he
>(president) would seriously work toward one.  He said yes, they opened gov.
> He didn't follow through, they closed gove.  After a few weeks they gave up,
>and the government is runing without an official budget.

Sounds like a big mess, are they working towards balencing the budget or
hasn't there changed anything during the last years?

>For the workers it was a paid vacation followed by a a lot of work to catch
>up on.

Isn't that were vacations are made for? ;)

> But then NASA decided, after awarding the contract, to change the contract
>to only have a third as many people.  Since I was a senior person I was more
>expensive, so they canceled their job offer (two weeks before I was supoose
>to start!  Happy thanksgiving holiday for me!) .

Senior, what is your age then? What kind of job do you have now at Magnavox? 
(I'm really amazed that we write since such a long time now, but still know
so little about each other)

Greetings Tim



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	["355" "Wed" "6" "March" "1996" "23:14:24" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "9" "Re: Re: Summary A" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 23:14:24 +0100

To Brian
>YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING.  PLEASE!  TELL ME YOU ARE KIDDING!
>(sound of Brian banging his head against the wall)
>We're counting on the lifeblood of our starship (the power) to come from 
>HUGE solar arrays.  PLEASE TELL ME THAT OBSCENE MESSAGE WAS JUST A JOKE!

These arrays are not Earth based, and they are in the hand of professionals.

Tim

From popserver Wed Mar  6 23:07:39 GMT 1996
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	["930" "Wed" "6" "March" "1996" "23:14:20" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "21" "Re: Orbit B" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Orbit B
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 23:14:20 +0100

>> All this is irrelevant, computers could calculate the path far in advance.
>> Besides that, the Asimov could follow the beam (up to certain limits).
>
>
>Ha, you have a lot of misplaced faith.  Calculations only work when you can
>rely on acurate data.  In this case the data would be months old, and we'ld
>have no way to know exactly what happend in the mean time.  Any slight
>deviation or flutter (inevitable with these huge flimsy structure) and the
>ship would not be doing exactly the speeds and accelerations we think it
>would.

But this means that any beam, from Earth or from some kind of retro-mirror
would be impossible! (In fact this is one of the reasons I never really
liked using a beam and always tried to think of taking all fuel along)

Anyway since the retro-mirror flies in front, it would know what the path
would be like for the Asimov, so it could calculate where to direct using
that data. 


Timothy

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From: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
CC: Brian Mansur , hous0042 ,
        jim , KellySt ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: LIT Future Site
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 17:32:08 -0500

Sitting on my desk at work is a 120 Mhz Pentium with
Windows NT 3.51 with a direct T1 connection to the net.

We have based a lot of our business on Netscape servers,
but are migrating to Microsoft.

Anyway, the upshot of all this is that sometime in the
near future each of us at work is going to have a
Microsoft WWW/FTP/Gopher server on our desk.

I'm thinking about making this server the home for
the starship design project, and give everyone their
own directory to do funky stuff with.

I WAS thinking about doing the installation on my own
so that we could do this NOW until I found out that
in order to install the servers I have to upgrade from
NT Workstation to NT Server and this may be a bit
complex.

As soon as everything's in place, though, I'll let you
guys know.

-David

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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: KellySt@aol.com
cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Orbit B
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 16:53:15 -0600 (CST)



Kelly:
> Anyway for the system to work the beam reflectors would need to hold place
> for years.  Which orbital mechanics wouldn't allow.
> 
> The problem of the beam push on the other hand is critical, and I'm surprised
> I didn't think of this (maybe this cold is worse than I think?).  The
> reflectors would be boosting at 10 m/s/s from the beam. FGorget about orbits.
>  You won't even say in the star system!
> 
Which is why i proposed building the tmaser array on a small innersystem 
planet.  (like mercury)

> 
> Follwing the beam might be possible if the angular change was minimal.  But
> given the high speeds and accelerations involved I'm suspicious.

but of ourse the angular change would be very minimal if you are talking 
about a circle the size of mecury's orbit and a length of twelve light years
so actually, the best orbit for the maser array is the closest one you 
can get.

Kevin

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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
cc: Brian Mansur , David ,
        jim , KellySt ,
        kgstar , lparker ,
        rddesign , stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: RE: Old RAIR drive system
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 17:05:17 -0600 (CST)



On Wed, 6 Mar 1996, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:

> 
> Unfortunatly, the best info we have is that there isn't enough reaction
> mass in space to make this desirable.  So I never worked it out to that
> level.  I'ld drop it, but it is an interesting class of drive systems.
> 

That was the idea behind my hybrid design (I'm way behind in my e-mail  ;)
that the decellerator is a mobile fuel launcher.  it isn't really 
required to aim accurately, all you have to do is raise the local density 
of space.  since the decellerator is accelerating all the time, momentum 
is conserved
> light.  Say 50-100 times the loaded ships mass.
> 
> Frankly I don't know if the sun makes puts out enough power to run the
> masers! ;)

We already went over this, covering the face of mercury with solar 
collectors would provide more than 1E18 Watts.

Kevin

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From: "L. Parker" 
To: Brian Mansur 
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: The Math
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 22:46:23 -0600

Hi Brian,

In regards to your request for the math on using a solar sail for more than
just accelerating outward from the sun, I am sorry to say no. I was going to
attempt it, but after typing in just a few of the basic equations I realized
that it was an enormous task which I can't spare the time for.

Basically, you can do anything with a solar sail that you can with a normal
watercraft sail. You can run, reach, tack, back up, and even perform
"station keeping." In fact, a solar sail almost makes a better in system
drive than it does an interstellar drive. Its best performance regime is
when it is close to a star, not far away.

Sorry, it's not that I don't want to go into the math, it is more a matter
of not wanting to type three pages on the basic physics of solar sailing
just to get to the point where I can present deceleration (1 page) radial
acceleration (1 page) and tangential acceleration (1 1/2 pages) adequately.
Instead I am going to recommend you to an excellent primer that covers all
of these topics:

"The Starflight Handbook"
by Eugene Mallove and Gregory Matloff
ISBN 0-471-61912-4

It also addresses many other topics which are frequently covered in this
discussion group. When you have finished that, you might also enjoy a
somewhat more detailed:

"High Performance Solar Sails and Related Reflecting Devices"
by K. E. Drexler
AIAA Paper 79-1418

and

"The Alpha Centauri Probe"
by J. H. Bloomer
in "Proceedings of the 17th International Astronautical Congress"

The deceleration equations were developed by J. T. Early and presented (I
think) in JBIS 37 (1984)

You are quite right in your deduction that you are actually decelerating
against orbital motion and thereby falling in toward the star on a parabolic
orbit. A more efficient manuever would be to accelerate out from the sun (or
other star) toward a gas giant, furl your sail and then perform a gravity
assist manuever back towards the star on a HYPERBOLIC orbit. This combined
with a powered perihelion manuever using a ramjet or equal) around the star
will allow you to achieve the greatest possible amount of boost from the
solar sail design. 

Utilizing a maximum acceleration of 14 G this will produce a final velocity
after boost phase of 0.003 c. for a 10,000 ton Explorer Class vehicle. This
would put it at Alpha Centauri in about 1200 years. Higher accelerations (as
much as 400 G) are possible but not for manned vehicles. The limiting factor
is of course the tensile strength of the sail and cables. A Pathfinder type
vehicle could make the same trip in about 350 years. This all assumes no
further acceleration from the sail beyond boost phase. (Its practically
useless beyond a certain distance unless you are going to use a LOT of
lasers or something.)

There are additional considerations such as skin temperature at perihelion
to consider, but most of these values were worked out in the late 80's and
pronounced feasible.

Rather than the wire mesh design I keep hearing here, I would suggest a thin
film metalloid connected in a "parachute" arrangement for a manned mission.
Such a sail can be made in space using vacuum deposition techniques and
theoretically provides the highest possible thrust to weight ratio as well
as being easy to manufacture. The materials for 100 sq km of such a sail
would fit in one space shuttle payload bay. You would probably want to be
able to manufacture several such sails during the course of the mission in
case of damage.

I hope you can find these references, I think you will find them interesting.

Lee Parker
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From popserver Thu Mar  7 07:21:17 GMT 1996
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	["436" "Wed" "6" "March" "1996" "23:56:13" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "13" "Re: ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 20:57:07 -0800 (PST)
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Message-ID: <960306235613_162298332@emout08.mail.aol.com>
From: KellySt@aol.com
To: lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
cc: David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, stevev@efn.org,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re:   snip

> I agree that NASA needs to be removed from the commercial 
> launch picture.  Unless and until we have a large, robust 
> commercial space presence, all our plans will come to naught.

Agreed.  A government agency has far to many strange political presures to be
effective at anything unless some extraordinary pressure is driving them.

Sure burned me out.  My dream job at NASA, opening up the space frountier,
NOT.

Kelly

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Message-ID: <960306235544_162298654@emout04.mail.aol.com>
From: KellySt@aol.com
To: bmansur@oc.edu, David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, stevev@efn.org,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 23:55:45 -0500

> >>Yes, I meant fusion. What kind of health problems does renewable energy
> >>have? Are solar-panels also dangerous?
> >
> >Mainly industrial accident problems.  Solar especially causes a lot of
> >induystrial accident per amount of power since its a lot of little
> >distributed systems.

> What kind of accidents should I think of? Exploding batteries,
> electrical shortcuts?

Kelly
>Normal stuff, falls, smashing glass, electrical shorts, etc...  Solar
>requires a lot of hands on work out of doors.  It has one of the highest
>labor overhead rates of major power systems.  So a lot of folks get hurt. 
 I
>think about 10-20 times as much as coal or nukes.

Brian re:==================================
YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING.  PLEASE!  TELL ME YOU ARE KIDDING!
(sound of Brian banging his head against the wall)
We're counting on the lifeblood of our starship (the power) to come from 
HUGE solar arrays.  PLEASE TELL ME THAT OBSCENE MESSAGE WAS JUST A JOKE!

You said there were glass shattering problems.  Aren't there soft plastic 
materials that hold enough form to be good mirrors for solar energy 
collection.

This is a nightmare.
================================

Kelly responce:
Plastics break down when subjected to UV, hard vac, and other things you get
a lot of in space.

Well of course glass breaks.  Just like in windows. 

We were talking about earth based power, not space.  But of course masive
fragile structures like the traditional space solar system will need a lot of
maintenence (why do you think Kevin and Tim are holding on to self
replicating robots like they're the holy Grail?).

Kelly

P.S.
Man, you gating brain goop all over that wall!

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: bmansur@oc.edu, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
cc: David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, stevev@efn.org,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
Subject: Re: RE: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 23:56:01 -0500

Brian 3:00 PM CT 3/6/96

>Kelly
>Laser launcher
>Assume the average fuel canister is the size of a 6 meter in diameter
>cylinder about 5 meters long.  I think that should hold about a hundred
>tons of fusion fuel (6Li?) but of course that would vary.

Brian
What is the density of Li?

Kelly
Don't know, don't have ref material near me.

>Kelly
>This canister is
>heavily reinforced (you'll see why), and the ends are covered in a thick
>plug of reaction mass (could be anything from fiber reinforced ice, to
>solid kevlar).  A floating laser 'tug' fires a laser at this plug of
>reaction mass.  One quick pulse to vaporise a layer off the bottom.  Then a
>heavy pulse to turn the vapor to super heated plasma.  I'E. a pulsed
>rocket.  Keep this cycle up a couple hundred times a secound.  You now have
>a laser rocket.

Brian
Cutting in here a second.  How about we make the reaction mass out of maser 
sails (many heavy (kg weight) starwisps?).  Problem is how to ionize them 
since they are design to reflect light.

Kelly
Are you proposeing the laser launcher be replaced with a maser sail system?
 That is not my intention for various reasons.

Brian
About your idea in the preceding paragraphs.  Am I understanding that the
this plasma vaporizing is used to launch the canister or does it disperse 
the fuel (good idea I think in second case).  Reading further I think you 
are trying to do both.  I don't know that you'd get the canister up to even 
a %c and the exhaust would be going in the wrong direction.  Unless, of 
course, if you were reversing the direction of the canister so that the 
exhaust would head toward TC.  Am I following you?

Kelly
No.  As I showed you should be able to get up to a good % of C.  The
canisters dock with the ship and offload fuel and are consumed for reaction
mass.  Thou during return to Sol the canisters are dethonated ahead of the
ship.

Why would you think the exaust would go toward T.C.?  It couldn't go away
from the laser.

Oh, the Explorer Class is not intented for a T.C. flight.  With a top speed
of maybe 1/3rd C its too slow.

>Kelly
>Note the canister has no internal systems.  Steering is handeled by aiming
>the beam off to one side of the base.  The uneven thrust will turn the
>canister, and subsequent pulses will thrust along the new vector.  Range is
>limited by the optical precision of the laser.  Given what a Hubble
>telescop can do over interstellar ranges.  I'll assume the system can do
>this out to 100,000 miles.

>So, if you station a laser tug every 100,000 miles or so.  They can take
>turns boosting a string of canisters.  Given orbital mechanics.  They will
>have to be continuously boosting themselves around to stay acceptably close
>to the 'Launcher' track.  (No stable orbits.)  Note that the exact
>possition of the tugs isn't important, but they must know exactly where
>they and the canisters are.  Given this system the launcher can be as long
>as you need at the moment.  If you space them out every 60,000 miles for
>100,000,000 kilometers (about a 1,000 tugs spaced from here to Mars.)  The
>average G load on a canister exiting at a speed of 1/3rd C, is E5 m/s^2, or
>about 100,000 gs.  Which seems reasonably possible for a solid block of
>reinforced metal and whatever.

Brian
What happens to the canister casing (I just looked down the page).  Instead 
of letting  the ship push the pieces to the side, can we somehow vaporize 
the casings with the plasma?


Kelly
Throw nails ahead of the ship.  They'ld hit at 100,000 k/s.  The casing and
everything else would think it hit a nuclear bomb.


>Kelly
>Laser scoop
>The ship uses a variation of this to catch the fuel canisters.  The ship
>has bow lasers that fire on the back of the canister to boost it forward
>and stear it onto the ships course vector.  Assuming the laser booster can
>function hiting the base at over 60 degrees from the center line, and can
>hit the target at 100,000 km.  The ship can 'catch' a fuel canister over
>80,000 km off to the side.  Far better than the scoop systems we were
>considering.  Which could increase the the range at which the ship can be
>externally fueled.  (Hopefully out to about 3,000 au's, since it would take
>that far for the ship to boost to 1/3rd c.)

Equations and text deleted.

Brian
I don't see how you are going to catch the canister (I admit that I'm 
skimming some of this since I have to do work very soon here).  I'll have to 
reread this idea some more but at least its a new idea.  I still don't see a 
solution for slowing down into TC though.

Kelly
The Explorer class slows down using fuel carried on board.


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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 23:57:28 -0500

Timothy van der Linden

> To Kelly,

> >> What kind of accidents should I think of? Exploding batteries,
> >> electrical shortcuts?
> >
> >Normal stuff, falls, smashing glass, electrical shorts, etc...  Solar
> >requires a lot of hands on work out of doors.  It has one of the highest
> >labor overhead rates of major power systems.  So a lot of folks get hurt.
 I
> >think about 10-20 times as much as coal or nukes.  Also solar has thermal
> >polution problems.  But no more than most old style power systems.  Well
and
> >a very high expence, but thats not what we were talking about.

> Hmmm, no luck then unless solar panels are build in at the same time the
> house is constructed. (I assume that if everyone had it's own generator, a
> similar rate of accidents would be the case)

No actually.  Since solar collector requirer you to do more repairs on the
roof, you have more serious falls (and leaky roofs).  Gas generators would
have more accidents than utilities, but les then solar due to the simpler
safger maintenence.

> >> Now I see what you mean, but how many animals would be 
> >> killed by pollution caused by dirty-energy? 
> >
> >So don't use dirty, thou I suppose it (coal) is ironically the one most
likly
> >to get past political problems.  In my old neighbor hood in Wisconson the
> >folks chased out a Nuke in favor of a coal plant and thought themselves
real
> >lucky.

> I guess the human mind works in crazy ways. (as if I figured that out a
> minute ago...)

:)


Timothy


> P.S. Kelly would you like me (and the others) to send LIT mail > to your
job
> address?

Sure, send to both.  If things are quiet I'll answer then.  If not I'll get
it on AOL when I get home.

Kelly

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Another new? idea
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 23:56:25 -0500

to Timothy van der Linden

> >> In fact it isn't a mirror anymore, we use a maser collector (analogy of
a
> >> solar-collector) and convert the whole bunch into electricity. > That
> >> electricity is that used to power an array of masers, just like the ones
at
> >> the Solar home base. So then we have a neat non diffusive or divergent
> >> retro-beam.
>
> >I'ld say that was a clever idea, but since I'm sure I suggested it a
couple
> >days ago and no one noticed, I'll ignore you.  :-P

> I'm sorry but I had no intend to make this idea look as if it was mine, I
> just wanted to restate it since, at least I was almost lost in this
avalance
> of letters.

I wasn't offended.  I just thought you had lost it in the avalance, and then
half remembered it and thought you came up with it.

> >Your talking about some heavy power equipment, but you've eliminated the
> >almost impossible problem of cleanly reflecting the beam.

> No, I wasn't reflecting it, I was retransmitting it by using maser-beams.

Note: I said "eliminated the almost impossible problem of cleanly reflecting
the beam".  I.E. you're not reflecting it.

I think your snow blind from the E-mail avalanch.  ;)



> >While I remember.  Wern't you the one that said the momentum of reflection
is
> >greater than the total power avalible if you absorb the power?  How did
that
> >work again?

> Yes that was me, but that isn't relevant here, I think 
> you have misunderstood my (or your?) whole idea of "retransmission".

I wasn't thinking of it for here.  Sorry for confusion.  I'm still woundering
if their is some better way to use the beam to decel.

If you have the equations handy send them on.

> >I was woundering if we could focus the beam on a reaction mass for some
kind
> >of plasm brake or something.  But can't remember the equations that were
> >geting thrown about.

> I didn't understand what you want to have, could you restate it?

Powe in watts to thrust equation if you have it.

Kelly

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 23:56:42 -0500

Timothy van der Linden

> >> >Actually the shuttles data limits were a constant problem, even safty
> >> >problem.
> >
> >> Do you know why they didn't replace them? Or was 
> >> replacing them an even bigger safety problem?
> >
> >No, they just didn't have the money.  Which was why they were using 1960's
> >B-52 bomber computers with 4K of RAM.   K!

> Huh, even 15 years ago 1 Mb of memory would be payable 
> for such a big organization.

Not for a radiation hardened, custom military computer.  The memory wasn't in
chips.  It was in magnetic cores (little dounuts of feric somthing or other)
with wires runing threw it.

The military wouldn't use them anymore.  So they could be declasified for
civilian use.

AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

The guys who programed them HATED them!

Kelly

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Orbit B
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 23:56:46 -0500

re Timothy van der Linden)

> >> All this is irrelevant, computers could calculate the path far in
advance.
> >> Besides that, the Asimov could follow the beam (up to certain limits).
> >
> >
> >Ha, you have a lot of misplaced faith.  Calculations only work when you
can
> >rely on acurate data.  In this case the data would be months old, and
we'ld
> >have no way to know exactly what happend in the mean time.  Any slight
> >deviation or flutter (inevitable with these huge flimsy structure) and the
> >ship would not be doing exactly the speeds and accelerations we think it
> >would.

> But this means that any beam, from Earth or from some kind of retro-mirror
> would be impossible! (In fact this is one of the reasons I never really
> liked using a beam and always tried to think of taking all fuel along)

You'ld have to have a fixed aim beam of huge proportions.  Say 10-100 times
the diameter of the sail (maybe it would need to be more?).  No I don't think
the reflectors would work.

> Anyway since the retro-mirror flies in front, it would know what the path
> would be like for the Asimov, so it could calculate where
>  to direct using that data. 

But the ship would be reacting to the stern thrust of the earth beam months
before it would get to the mirror, and the mirror could respond.  Besides how
could you keep the mirror perfectly focused with all the random fluxuations
in the beam?  Keep the reflector tuned exactly to the sail, or know if the
sail drifted a little due to problems, or back thrust from earth (that the
reflector wouldn't see for months).

How the hell do you focus a lose flapping mesh sheet, the size of jupiter,
while its taking 100s-1000's-? of G in acceleration?

Kelly

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re:  To Kelly

> >> Is NASA changing its policies to become a bit more 
> >> commercial? (I'm a bit lost about what became of the 
> >> critical time, when the US government had no
=====

> >the money to do that.  So they are trying to become partners with
industry.
> > They aren't very good at it yet.

> Do I hear some irony? :)

Biter irony.

> >The federal worker latoff was just a argument between the new congress and
> >the president.  The new guys got voted in to do big changes, and the
highest
> >on their voters wish list was balencing the budget, and shrink the size of
> >the government.  Our president said he wanted to do that, but refused to
> >participate or sign the budgets.  So after a few months Congress refused
to
> >authorise fund extensions without a signed budget, or promise that he
> >(president) would seriously work toward one.  He said yes, they opened
gov.
> > He didn't follow through, they closed gove.  After a few weeks they gave
up,
> >and the government is runing without an official budget.

> Sounds like a big mess, are they working towards balencing the budget or
> hasn't there changed anything during the last years?

Big mess!  Then on top of that you have investigations of criminal missdeads
and coruption in the President, 1st lady, and white house staff.  (Working
down town I got lots of jucy rumors from friends of saff.  The Clintons are
lniown as the nastiest first couple in memory.)

Not much is happening.  At least now balencing the budget is a serious
intention. And since congress signs the checks.  No project gets new money
without something geting cut.  

This November is another election.  Good odds thatr the current president
won't get reelected.  See what happens after that.

> >For the workers it was a paid vacation followed by a a lot of work to
catch
> >up on.

> Isn't that were vacations are made for? ;)

Yeah, the layoff was so stressfull. When they came back to work they called
in sick. ;)

> > But then NASA decided, after awarding the contract, to change the
contract
> >to only have a third as many people.  Since I was a senior person I was
more
> >expensive, so they canceled their job offer (two weeks before I was
supoose
> >to start!  Happy thanksgiving holiday for me!) .

> Senior, what is your age then? What kind of job do you have now at
Magnavox? 
> (I'm really amazed that we write since such a long time now, but still know
> so little about each other)

> Greetings Tim

Really.  I don't know how long it was before I noticed you were dutch.  I
have a dog who's ansestors were nearly whiped out by one of you political
werdnesses!  ;)  (Keeshond)

As of December I'm 39.  Im a senior systems engineer at Magnavox working on a
system for the militaries new 'digital battlefield'.  Well actually I'm doing
NOTHING!  Which is why I respond so fast to E-mail sent to my office.  The
organization is clueless, and I hate the city.  Expect a new job for me this
summer.

Kelly

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu
cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Orbit B
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 23:58:48 -0500

re Kevin C Houston

> Kelly:
> > Anyway for the system to work the beam reflectors would need to hold
place
> > for years.  Which orbital mechanics wouldn't allow.
> > 
> > The problem of the beam push on the other hand is critical, and I'm
surprised
> > I didn't think of this (maybe this cold is worse than I think?).  The
> > reflectors would be boosting at 10 m/s/s from the beam. FGorget about
orbits.
> >  You won't even say in the star system!
> > 
> Which is why i proposed building the tmaser array on a small > innersystem 
> planet.  (like mercury)

Kind of useless for a reflector.  And as a transmitter the beam would be
moving side to side and couldn't keep to a fixed vector.

> 
> > Follwing the beam might be possible if the angular change was minimal.
 But
> > given the high speeds and accelerations involved I'm suspicious.

> but of ourse the angular change would be very minimal if you are talking 
> about a circle the size of mecury's orbit and a length of twelve light
years
> so actually, the best orbit for the maser array is the closest one you 
> can get.

Your still talking about a lateral drift of an orbit diameter.  I guess
angular change is a no show since the beam couldn't aim toward the ship.  It
would need to aim fixed vector and the ship chases it around.  If it slips
off.  You die.

Kelly

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From: "L. Parker" 
To: Steve VanDevender 
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 08:55:56 -0600

At 10:51 AM 3/6/96 -0800, you wrote:
>I was saying that you couldn't use the sail to produce greater acceleration
>towards the star than you would get by just falling towards the star.
At the risk of repeating myself, yes you are right. Producing a vector
component counter to orbital motion results in a parabolic orbit.

However, by accelerating AWAY from the sun first towards a large planet such
as a gas giant and using the planet for a gravity assist manuever, you can
then free fall back towards the sun on a hyperbolic orbit (without sails).
By unfurling the sail behind an occulter at perihelion, you will get maximum
radial thrust (in the direction of your orbit). If you were also using some
form of auxillary power at the same time you can perform what is called a
powered perihelion manuever and further augment your velocity.

Because of the reduction in light pressure as distance increases, the
acceleration drops off rather rapidly. From a theoretical maximum of 400 G
at one solar radius it would be nearly imperceptible at Earth's orbit.

As far as a straight acceleration away from the Sun, yes a sail can do it.
It really depends on the "Lightness Number" of the sail material being used.
The Lightness Number is the ratio of the sails acceleration by sunlight
pressure to the star's gravitational acceleration. Sails currently examined
by NASA are more than light enough to accelerate directly away. (See Eric
Drexler, "High Performance Solar Sails and Relatred Reflecting Devices" AIAA
Paper 79-1418, May 1979.)

Lee Parker
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From popserver Thu Mar  7 19:11:43 GMT 1996
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	["561" "Thu" "7" "March" "1996" "07:59:27" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "19" "Re: ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 06:00:35 -0800 (PST)
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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Timothy van der Linden 
cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
         zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re:  Kelly:
> >The federal worker latoff was just a argument between the new congress and
Tim:
> Sounds like a big mess, are they working towards balencing the budget or
> hasn't there changed anything during the last years?
> 
No, the new congress has been too busy trying to regulate the citizens' 
sex lives.

> (I'm really amazed that we write since such a long time now, but still know
> so little about each other)

Well, that's what happens when you have friends that you've never met. :)


Kevin Houston

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	["3984" "Thu" "7" "March" "1996" "08:32:52" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "69" "Re: Re: Summary A" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: KellySt@aol.com
cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 08:32:52 -0600 (CST)

Kelly:
> > >Normal stuff, falls, smashing glass, electrical shorts, etc...  Solar
> > >requires a lot of hands on work out of doors.  It has one of the highest
> > >labor overhead rates of major power systems.  So a lot of folks get hurt.
>  I
> > >think about 10-20 times as much as coal or nukes.  Also solar has thermal

This is not fair comparison at all! >:-(  
Kelly, you are comparing apples and oranges.  Plus I think you have 
mis-stated the accident rate by a factor of at least 10.

you can't compare solar collectors (PV) with a coal or nuclear power 
plant, unless you also consider the accident rate from transmission 
lines, substations, PCBs (in the transformers) etc.  Most power lines are 
above the height of most roofs, and when a solar collector gets knocked 
down in a storm, you don't have to worry about getting electrocuted.  I 
know three different houses in the south-western Wisconsin area that are 
using PV (photovoltaic) systems because they are too remote from a power 
line.  I even helped with the installation on one house.  according to 
your 10-20 times higher accident rate, I should have fallen off that roof 
at least once.  out of five people (yes, it is a labor intensive tech) 
not one accident occured (discounting one guy who hit his thumb with a 
hammer -- not hard)  I can beleive that solar has an accident rate 1-2 
times higher than coal or nuke, but the types of accident are far far 
smaller.  Falling off a roof is nothing compared to being killed in a 
mine collapse, or getting cancer because the power company decides that 
paying the health and court costs of the two guys who get cancer is far 
cheaper than paying for adequate safety equipment (and besides, you might 
be able to show that the cancer came because they were smokers, and then 
you don't have to pay anything except lawyer fees -- FEH!)  BTW, I'm 
talking about the fuel processing workers, not the actual powerplant 
workers.  While it is true that making the solar cells can be hazardous 
(all the more so because people just don't respect hydroflouric acid 
like they respect/fear uranium) the accidents are not in the same league.

> > Hmmm, no luck then unless solar panels are build in at the same time the
> > house is constructed. (I assume that if everyone had it's own generator, a
> > similar rate of accidents would be the case)
> 
> No actually.  Since solar collector requirer you to do more repairs on the
> roof, you have more serious falls (and leaky roofs).  Gas generators would

Only one of the 3 houses I have seen had Solar collectors on the roof.  
The other two had a large piece of plywood stuck on a pole out in the 
middle of the back-yard.  that pole was about head-high, and about four 
by eight feet (1.3 by 2.6 meters)  Granted that was in the country, where 
land is easily available, I'm sure that in a city, you would want to be 
on the roof.

> > >to get past political problems.  In my old neighbor hood in Wisconson the
> > >folks chased out a Nuke in favor of a coal plant and thought themselves

Where in Wisconsin are you from?

Kevin

P.S. Sorry for the confrontational tone, but I see you repeating the 
standard power company line, and i know that it is false.  Solar may not 
be the safest, the cheapest, or the cleanest,  but the reasons for this 
have nothing to do with the technology, only with the politics and 
regulations.  It not the safest, because the people installing the 
systems are usually inexperienced (solvable problem) it is not the 
cheapest because the true costs of coal and oil are not being accounted 
for (resource depletion and pollution) it is not the cleanest, because 
making the solar cells themselves require many dangerous chemicals, but 
once the cells are made, they are clean.  so all the pollution can be 
confined to the factory that made the cells, where it can be treated and 
disposed of by professionals, not just blown into the air for the next 
country/state to deal with.

From popserver Thu Mar  7 19:12:11 GMT 1996
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	["685" "Thu" "7" "March" "1996" "08:40:26" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "18" "Re: ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 06:41:34 -0800 (PST)
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Message-ID: 
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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: KellySt@aol.com
cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re:  Kelly:
> As of December I'm 39.  Im a senior systems engineer at Magnavox working on a
> system for the militaries new 'digital battlefield'.  Well actually I'm doing
> NOTHING!  Which is why I respond so fast to E-mail sent to my office.  The
> organization is clueless, and I hate the city.  Expect a new job for me this
> summer.

You should really be more careful what you say on an open line, I happen 
to work for the agency that oversees Goverment Military contracts  ;)
Defense Contract Management Area Office (DCMAO) 
Luckily for you, I am just a lowly Student-worker, and our area of 
jurisdiction is upper midwest.   :)

Kevin

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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: KellySt@aol.com
cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 08:45:38 -0600 (CST)



Kelly:
> Tim:
> > Huh, even 15 years ago 1 Mb of memory would be payable 
> > for such a big organization.
> 
Oh you can _buy_ the memory, you just couldn't address it properly.


> Not for a radiation hardened, custom military computer.  The memory wasn't in
> chips.  It was in magnetic cores (little dounuts of feric somthing or other)
> with wires runing threw it.

Ah yes, the "core" memory.  Isn't that where the term "core dump" came from?
That (stringing cores) used to be a real shit-job.

Kevin

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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: KellySt@aol.com
cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Orbit B
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 09:21:55 -0600 (CST)



On Wed, 6 Mar 1996 KellySt@aol.com wrote:

> re Kevin C Houston
> > Which is why i proposed building the maser array on a small, innersystem 
> > planet.  (like mercury)
> 
> Kind of useless for a reflector.  And as a transmitter the beam would be
> moving side to side and couldn't keep to a fixed vector.
> 

No, think of a cone twelve light-years tall, with a base circle the size 
of merc's orbit.  the angular deviations would be nearly impossible to 
measure.  Let's just consider a two-dimensional analogy. an isoceles 
triangle twelve lightyears to a side, with a 72 million mile base:
the angle at the point of the triangle would be ~5E-7 degrees.  since 
Merc takes ~88 days to complete an orbit, it would be very easy for a 
south-polar maser station to track Tau Ceti.  Just like large 
observatories track stars over a night here on earth.  (note: Merc is not 
tide-locked WRT Sol, so there would also be some revolutionary component 
to account for)


> 
> Your still talking about a lateral drift of an orbit diameter.  I guess

over light years distance.  even at one light year, the beam coming from 
one side of merc's orbit would only be .000006 degrees different from the 
other side of merc's orbit.  you could never tell.  you'd be hard-pressed 
to measure it with the best of equipment

> angular change is a no show since the beam couldn't aim toward the ship.  It
> would need to aim fixed vector and the ship chases it around.  If it slips
> off.  You die.


The beam is aimed straight at TC, same as any fixed (WRT Sol) 
Transmitter, by the time you get one-lightyear out, you can't tell the 
difference between the beam from one side of merc or the other.


===

I've got an idea rolling around my head, and I think it's time to let it out.

First, attach a asimov-sized sail and maser cannons (just like Tim/Kelly 
proposed) to several large asteroids (for mass) and blast the hell out of 
it to get it up to .5 C. once it is on it's way, wait until it is in 
position, (time unknown, still working on it) and start a one light-year 
long maser blast.  after this amount of energy is on it's way, the Asmiov 
begins it's journey.  after one year, the maser beam cuts off from Sol. 
The tail end of this beam catches up to Asimov at the half-way point, 
just as the retransmitted beam from the (for lack of a better word) 
reflector.  The reflector speeds up, and crashes into TC, while the 
asimov slows down. the maser beam from earth is still only on for about 
two years (not counting the time needed to accelerate the reflector)

one of the nice things about this system is that the reflector can be 
accelerated at just about any rate, (within reason) as it is un-manned. 
given that we won't need large RM tanks, or a Kilometer long ion engine, 
I think the entire weight of the Asimov can be drastically reduced to 
crew support sections only.  While in-system, the Asimov uses a 
visible-light solar sail to move around.  This system still requires a 
construction project to build the return masers.

Comments?  Suggestions? Flames?  ;)


Kevin.

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
         "L. Parker" ,
         rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
To: zkulpa 
Subject: Problems
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 96 10:54:00 PST


Brian
To Discusion group.

 Now that I have a concept of how to get a sail driven starship to TC in 
less than 50 years, I'm trying to get some questions answered on the ship's 
dry weight requirements and whether or not they can be met.
My Argosy design, as of last night, requires:

1000km wide sail.
A crew of 400
An exploration module (ion drive plus habitat) weight of 350,000 tons minus 
reaction mass
A maximum cruise velocity of .75c.
A minimum power requirement of 1E18W.

1.  Can a 1000 km wide sail made mostly of chicken wire or flimsy silver 
foil be rigged to support a 350,000 ton ship without being ripped to shreds? 


2. Will the guy wires/cables snap under their own weight given a 10m/s^2 
acceleration?

3. How heavy would the cables need to be to prevent snapping.  Tim gave me 
some equations a while back when I wanted to tether a solar collector array 
to Mercury.  I haven't had time to try to make sense of them but he said the 
cables would probably snap under their own weight.


We've got to get these problems solved if this Argosy idea is going to go 
anywhere.

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: Brian Mansur , "L. Parker" 
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
         KellySt , rddesign ,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: RE: The Math
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 96 10:57:00 PST



 ----------
From: L. Parker
To: Brian Mansur
Cc: David; hous0042; KellySt; rddesign; Steve VanDevender; 
T.L.G.vanderLinden
Subject: The Math
Date: Wednesday, March 06, 1996 10:46PM

Hi Lee

>Lee
>In regards to your request for the math on using a solar sail for more than
>just accelerating outward from the sun, I am sorry to say no. I was going 
to
>attempt it, but after typing in just a few of the basic equations I 
realized
>that it was an enormous task which I can't spare the time for.

Brian
I don't remember requesting that, but thanks for considering it.  Knowing it 
isn't going to be easy just to calculate a few seemingly simple acceleration 
problems for a solar sail just adds to this sinking feeling I've got about 
my Argosy design.

>Lee
>Basically, you can do anything with a solar sail that you can with a normal
>watercraft sail. You can run, reach, tack, back up, and even perform
>"station keeping." In fact, a solar sail almost makes a better in system
>drive than it does an interstellar drive. Its best performance regime is
>when it is close to a star, not far away.

Brian
I have an idea.  Lets put this thing on the ocean, atach a surfboard and 
have some wild fun.  (just kidding).  What would "station keeping" be like?

>Parker
>Sorry, it's not that I don't want to go into the math, it is more a matter
>of not wanting to type three pages on the basic physics of solar sailing
>just to get to the point where I can present deceleration (1 page) radial
>acceleration (1 page) and tangential acceleration (1 1/2 pages) adequately.
>Instead I am going to recommend you to an excellent primer that covers all
>of these topics:

Brian
Understandable.

>Parker
>You are quite right in your deduction that you are actually decelerating
>against orbital motion and thereby falling in toward the star on a 
parabolic
>orbit.

Brian
Now I know that you've got me confused with someone else.  David I think is 
who you are talking to.  But the attention you are giving to using our 
interstellar sail for insystem flight is something I'll review when I take a 
shot at writing up my Argosy summary this break.

>Parker
>A more efficient manuever would be to accelerate out from the sun (or
>other star) toward a gas giant, furl your sail and then perform a gravity
>assist manuever back towards the star on a HYPERBOLIC orbit. This >combined 
with a powered perihelion manuever using a ramjet or equal) >around the star 
will allow you to achieve the greatest possible amount of boost >from the 
solar sail design.

Brian
I don't know if the sail could get a very fast acceleration for very long 
unless it began near TC.  Given that the star's gravity will be greatest 
where we get the most light pressure, I'm wonder if we wouldn't be better 
off leaving the sail wrapped up while we use an ion drive to hope around 
town.

>Parker
>Utilizing a maximum acceleration of 14 G

Brian
14 G!!!!  I know I can't take that.

>Parker
>this will produce a final velocity
>after boost phase of 0.003 c. for a 10,000 ton Explorer Class vehicle.

Brian
What do you mean by Explorer class?  10,000 tons does not account for 
Kelly's 100,000+ ton design.  And where is your shielding mass?  Sorry, I 
seem to be beating you up for a number that was probably just picked out for 
convinence.  But be careful to remember that we presently don't have any 
clue on how to make a decent sized ship that can protect a human crew 
without a lot of heavy shielding.  Of course there is still that discussion 
about magnetic shielding.

>Parker
>This
>would put it at Alpha Centauri in about 1200 years. Higher accelerations 
(as
>much as 400 G) are possible but not for manned vehicles. The limiting 
factor
>is of course the tensile strength of the sail and cables.

Brian
To Discusion group.  The strength of the cables and sails has, of late, 
become a concern to me.  See my Problems mail about these concerns

>Parker
>A Pathfinder type
>vehicle could make the same trip in about 350 years. This all assumes no
>further acceleration from the sail beyond boost phase. (Its practically
>useless beyond a certain distance unless you are going to use a LOT of
>lasers or something.)

>There are additional considerations such as skin temperature at perihelion
>to consider, but most of these values were worked out in the late 80's and
>pronounced feasible.
>
>Rather than the wire mesh design I keep hearing here, I would suggest a 
thin
>film metalloid connected in a "parachute" arrangement for a manned mission.

Brian
I've noticed it may be more efficient to do just you're suggesting.  Got to 
go.

>Parker
>Such a sail can be made in space using vacuum deposition techniques and
>theoretically provides the highest possible thrust to weight ratio as well
>as being easy to manufacture. The materials for 100 sq km of such a sail
>would fit in one space shuttle payload bay. You would probably want to be
>able to manufacture several such sails during the course of the mission in
>case of damage.

Brian
Since they are going to be relatively unprotected during high %c travel, I 
wonder if even one good strike from a dust partcle won't cause a nuke 
explosion and rip a really big hole.  Definitely handy to have spare sheets.

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: Kevin C Houston , KellySt 
Cc: bmansur , David ,
         jim , lparker ,
        rddesign , stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: RETRO MIRROR SCHEMES
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 96 15:36:00 PST


Brian

On March 7, 1996 at 9:21 AM, Kevin Houston proposed in Orbit B this idea.

>Kevin:
>I've got an idea rolling around my head, and I think it's time to let it 
out.

>First, attach a asimov-sized sail and maser cannons (just like Tim/Kelly
>proposed) to several large asteroids (for mass) and blast the hell out of
>it to get it up to .5 C. once it is on it's way, wait until it is in
>position, (time unknown, still working on it) and start a one light-year
>long maser blast.  after this amount of energy is on it's way, the Asmiov
>begins it's journey.  after one year, the maser beam cuts off from Sol.
>The tail end of this beam catches up to Asimov at the half-way point,
>just as the retransmitted beam from the (for lack of a better word)
>reflector.  The reflector speeds up, and crashes into TC, while the
>asimov slows down. the maser beam from earth is still only on for about
>two years (not counting the time needed to accelerate the reflector)

>one of the nice things about this system is that the reflector can be
>accelerated at just about any rate, (within reason) as it is un-manned.
>given that we won't need large RM tanks, or a Kilometer long ion engine,
>I think the entire weight of the Asimov can be drastically reduced to
>crew support sections only.  While in-system, the Asimov uses a
>visible-light solar sail to move around.  This system still requires a
>construction project to build the return masers.

>Comments?  Suggestions? Flames?  ;)

Brian
ISN'T THIS EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN SUGGESTING ALL FOR THE LAST THREE DAYS!!!
I THINK ITS BRILLIANT!!!  sorry for shouting Kev.

Problems with aiming the reflected beam, however.  Since the distances 
between the reflector (we are callin it a retro-mirror) and the Asimov could 
get to an excess of 10,000 AU, I propose refocusing the beam into a tight 
shot about between 100 to 1000km.

Talking about refocusing beams.  At worst, the beam from Sol can be allowed 
to stray  + or - 1000km.  This could be more easily accomplished (or 
eliminated dare I hope) if we had  a refocusing mirror aparatus station (of 
a similar configuration to the retro-mirror) somewhere  along the way to TC. 
 Because of losses in the reflecting, I figure that there would be power 
transfer losses of say 30% per station.  I get this number from the idea 
that the primary beam gathering mirror would be made of aluminum.  It is a 
reflector good for  85+% transmission.  Use silver for better %ages.

The primary mirror refocuses into a small (10 - 100 km) precision mirror 
that beams the refocused energy into a final dish that accurately aims using 
your gyros.  The thing works like a telescope getting a precision shot to 
TC.  I assume that we lose 30% through the whole process.  Depending on how 
many refocusing stations we go through, we may expect 1% of our original 
beam from Sol to reach the Asimov.

This rating is disgusting, but fortunately I have already calculated for 
gathering 1E20 W (from closer than Mercury orbit) assuming 1% ever get to 
the Asimov.  A square sheet of the necessary size could almost eclipse 
Saturn if it could be place next to is.

By the way.  The retro mirror is 10,000km wide (not in radius) so a + or - 
1000km  to hit isn't too bad.  This gives us a 12,000km wide beam from Sol 
with 30%  of the beam immediately lost to space.

Calculation for this is pi  * 1E4^2 / pi * 1.2E4^2 = .69.  1 - .69 = .30 * 
100 = 30%

The retro-mirror is responsible for keeping the beam steady in the direction 
to Sol (beaming straight down the the Sol beam in fact).  The Asimov just 
has to find the retro-mirror's beam.  It is understood that the beam from 
Sol will cause some overall losses in the system since it will be hitting 
the back of the Asimov's sail.  These losses could get up to 2% given that 
the sail is 1000km wide and the Sol side beam is 10,000km wide.  Oh, and I'm 
assuming that the retro-beam is + or - 10km dead on the Asimov sail.

Since I'm we're talking about system efficiencies.  I wonder if it would be 
better to skip masers and use  visible light reflecting sails.   LISTEN UP. 
 THIS IS IMPORTANT.  We know that our masers waste 90% of their power just 
to transmit (right?).  If we were using solar panels like on the Hubble, 
then that is another 90% lost.  Already our 1E18 W needed to accelerate the 
Asimov is up to 1E20.  This gets worse as we transmit across interstellar 
distances through refocusing array's and retro-mirrors before ever getting 
to the Asimov which will have a none too pretty reflective sail itself. 
 This could easily put our starting power bill at 1E21.

IDEA!  Why not skip converting the sunlight and just gather it directly into 
lasers using these huge mirror apparatuses that I'm proposing.  The arrays 
aroundSol would need to be heavy to keep from getting blown away, but that's 
okay.  In fact, for weight, each could have a robot service station complete 
with many a megaton of equipment and raw materials just to keep it going. 
 It would take a while to this array set up, but then we are figuring on 
unbelievable automation.

SOMETHING ELSE IMPORTANT.  I was up late last night reading old newsletters, 
trying to come up with ideas and see what kind of breakthroughs we needed. 
 As of this time, I hold next to no hope for humanity going to the stars 
without automotive breakthroughs that would revolutionize industry by put 
the blue collar guy almost completely out of the construction business.

I know it seems a stretch but the alternative is to have equally improbable 
breakthroughs in physics and who knows what other tech.  Come to think of 
it, we are already depending on some real breakthroughs just to get certain 
pieces of the ship working like the superpowerful ion drive.  This is not as 
spectacular as autonomous robots but just as necessary for exploration of 
TC.  And since we're talking about how to get to TC, I really think that 
light sail propulsion is our best bet.  That prospect makes me shudder since 
we don't know how much damage interstellar matter will do to do the sails 
(not to mention the hab section).  But this seems to me that this Argosy 
that I'm trying to get into shape is what we are going to be stuck with 
(until we find something better).

Quote from ST:NG.  Picard:  "things are impossible only until they are not."

 About the retro-mirror design.  What do you guys think?  I proposed this 
retro-mirror configuration (as a refocusing station idea) when I first 
joined the discussion group in January, but I don't remember what you guys 
thought about it.  Please respond because if this won't work, I don't know 
what will.  My brain has been very focused on the Starship propulsion 
question and I am out of ideas that could make the Argosy class ship fly. 
 At least for now.

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Orbit B
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 96 16:33:00 PST



 ----------
From: KellySt
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden; stevev; jim; zkulpa; hous0042; rddesign; David; 
lparker; bmansur
Subject: Re: Orbit B
Date: Wednesday, March 06, 1996 11:56PM

>From Brian

>Kelly
>But the ship would be reacting to the stern thrust of the earth beam months
>before it would get to the mirror, and the mirror could respond.

Brian
You've pointed out a serious problem that only this morning I even realized 
was there.  You remember how nervous the Columbia crew was that their 
tethered sattilite might bounce back at them?  Think of see a really huge 
sail falling down around you.  It would, no doubt, bend the cable/guy wires 
beyond use even if the sail didn't rip itself apart after crumbling down.

The solution is to move out of the Sol beam path, pack up your sail (and no, 
I don't know how to do that), and wait for the retro-beam to reach the 
Asimov's range.  Then you move back into the Sol beam and then into the 
retro-beam.  You deploy your sail and voila.  Just pray that the retro-beam 
doesn't get jerked off target or else you'd better have a spare sail and a 
good robotic team to put it up.  Come to think of it, you'd need a lot of 
bots just to deploy the main sail.

>Kelly
>Besides how
>could you keep the mirror perfectly focused with all the random fluxuations
>in the beam?  Keep the reflector tuned exactly to the sail, or know if the
>sail drifted a little due to problems, or back thrust from earth (that the
>reflector wouldn't see for months).

Brian
Random fluxuations from where?  Not in my refocusing retro-mirror design. 
 Oh no, I just realized something.  Even if you refocus the beam down into a 
smaller one via a series of mirrors, it will still have the same energy 
density distortions as the unfocuses beam.  They would just be on a smaller 
scale.  Exactly like a picture from a telescope.  Maybe the fluxuations 
won't be so bad.  Then again, maybe not.  But I don't see how we could 
correct for this.

By the way.  It is possible, as I think you noted earlier this week, that 
the mirror would cause plenty of fluxations in its own write.  After all, 
the huge reflecting surface is an ultra-thin sheet that requires tension for 
shape and force from the Sol beam for tension.  I see where fluxuations 
would compound on fluxuations.  E-GAD!  THIS IS A NIGHTMARE!


Time for a reality check.

For this entire light sail idea to work, you 100% HAVE TO assume that the 
beam from the retro-mirror remains steady AND relatively free of 
fluxuations.  The Asimov will have to take care of itself and keep its 
posistion dead in the retro-beam.  Any mistakes and you have a wrecked sail. 
 Unless that can be replaced in a matter of a few days, your crew is going 
to have to drop weights (hab shielding mass which is where half of the ship 
mass is minus fuel/RM) and hope that whatever kind of sail you get up before 
slamming into the retro-mirror  can take the extra g's of deceleration.  Not 
to mention the crew.

Question: Why does reality have to bite so hard?

>Kelly
>How the hell do you focus a lose flapping mesh sheet, the size of jupiter,
>while its taking 100s-1000's-? of G in acceleration?

Brian
Over long distances, you don't.  You don't even try.  See my RETRO MIRRORS 
paper mailed just an hour or so ago.  You focus on a much closer target. 
 And, as you'll see on the paper, my ideas don't bother making the sheet so 
large and they will probably be composited and linked by cables.  By the 
way, the weight of the of the Retro mirror can be in excess of 5E6 tons. 
 Don't laugh.  I calculated myself that you can, in fact launch that sucker 
with 1.1E18 W to .33c in roughly 260 days.  The Asimov, I'm assuming, weighs 
5E5 tons.  That can be accelerated to .75c (not accounting for relativity if 
I understand the equation I used) at 10m/s^2 over 260 or so days.  Here is 
the equation.  Incidentally, I got it from a previous discussion from 
November, I think.

P = Power
m =  Mass
v = velocity
c = lightspeed (3E8 m/s)

P = [mc^2/(1 - (v^2)/(c^2))^.5] - mc^2 

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 96 16:54:00 PST


>From Brian

>Kelly responce:
>Plastics break down when subjected to UV, hard vac, and other things you 
get
>a lot of in space.

Brian
Why would hard vacuum be a problem to plastic?  Could the plastic be 
shielding from the UV etc.  What are those other things in space that you 
are talking about.  X-rays, hard radiation, dust, etc.?  I see a problem 
going on here.  URGH! 

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , KellySt ,
        kgstar 
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
        jim , lparker ,
        rddesign , stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: RE: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 96 17:03:00 PST



 ----------
From: KellySt
To: bmansur; kgstar
Cc: David; hous0042; jim; lparker; rddesign; stevev; T.L.G.vanderLinden
Subject: Re: RE: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Wednesday, March 06, 1996 11:56PM

>From Brian


>Brian
>Cutting in here a second.  How about we make the reaction mass out of maser 

>sails (many heavy (kg weight) starwisps?).  Problem is how to ionize them
>since they are design to reflect light.

>Kelly
>Are you proposeing the laser launcher be replaced with a maser sail system?
>That is not my intention for various reasons.

Brian
My idea was a random thought that I just threw in as a possible prelude to 
an idea.  What reasons did you have for not using maser beams?

>Brian
>I don't know that you'd get the canister up to even
>a %c and the exhaust would be going in the wrong direction.  Unless, of
>course, if you were reversing the direction of the canister so that the
>exhaust would head toward TC.  Am I following you?

>Kelly
>No.  As I showed you should be able to get up to a good % of C.  The
>canisters dock with the ship and offload fuel and are consumed for reaction
>mass.  Thou during return to Sol the canisters are dethonated ahead of the
>ship.

Brian
That's cool!

>Kelly
>Oh, the Explorer Class is not intented for a T.C. flight.  With a top speed
>of maybe 1/3rd C its too slow.

Brian
Alpha Centauri, HO!

>Brian
>I don't see how you are going to catch the canister (I admit that I'm
>skimming some of this since I have to do work very soon here).  I'll have 
to
>reread this idea some more but at least its a new idea.  I still don't see 
a
>solution for slowing down into TC though.

>Kelly
>The Explorer class slows down using fuel carried on board.

Brian
Back to the same old problems again.  Oh well.

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Another new? idea
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 96 17:15:00 PST



 ----------
From: KellySt
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden; stevev; jim; zkulpa; hous0042; rddesign; David; 
lparker; bmansur
Subject: Re: Another new? idea
Date: Wednesday, March 06, 1996 11:56PM


>>Kelly
> >I'ld say that was a clever idea, but since I'm sure I suggested it a
couple
> >days ago and no one noticed, I'll ignore you.  :-P

>Tim
> I'm sorry but I had no intend to make this idea look as if it was mine, I
> just wanted to restate it since, at least I was almost lost in this
avalance
> of letters.

>Kelly
>I wasn't offended.  I just thought you had lost it in the avalance, and 
then
half remembered it and thought you came up with it.

Brian
That avalanch is very much my doing.  More than half of the letters I've 
noticed had titles that originated from my keyboard.  To put things into 
perspective, I just finished saving and deleting 150+ letters, all of which 
were dated to the last week and a half.  I wrote more than 50 of them!  I'll 
tell you that I've spent more time, A LOT more time, on this starship 
project this last week than I have on schoolwork.  Fortunately we're in a 
lull so I'm not too far behind.  To keep it from getting worse, however, I'm 
going to have to slow down and get refocused.

About giving credit where its due.  Most things that I, at least, have 
thought of have been inspired by something someone else in the group said. 
 What we're doing here is getting the pieces of the starship puzzle on the 
table and trying to make them fit.  It doesn't matter so much where we got 
them as it is whether or not the puzzle gets finished.  Then we can sign 
_all_ our names to it.  Since when did I start getting allegorical?  That's 
really scary.

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References: <313F850A@mainpobox.oc.edu>
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: Brian Mansur 
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
        jim , KellySt ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 17:09:37 -0800

Brian Mansur writes:
 > >From Brian
 > 
 > >Kelly responce:
 > >Plastics break down when subjected to UV, hard vac, and other things you 
 > get
 > >a lot of in space.
 > 
 > Brian
 > Why would hard vacuum be a problem to plastic?  Could the plastic be 
 > shielding from the UV etc.  What are those other things in space that you 
 > are talking about.  X-rays, hard radiation, dust, etc.?  I see a problem 
 > going on here.  URGH! 

Many plastics, especially flexible ones, depend on volatile compounds
mixed with the polymer for their resiliency.  In our normal atmosphere
they can remain flexible for a long time; in a vacuum the volatiles
evaporate more quickly and cause the plastics to become brittle.

Any radiation that might ionize or break down the molecules in polymers
will also gradually destroy plastics.  There's a lot more ionizing
radiation in space than there is on Earth.

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: bmansur@oc.edu, David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, stevev@efn.org,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re: Orbit B
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 23:40:16 -0500

to Brian Mansur

>Kelly
>But the ship would be reacting to the stern thrust of the earth beam months
>before it would get to the mirror, and the mirror could respond.

Brian
You've pointed out a serious problem that only this morning I even realized 
was there.  You remember how nervous the Columbia crew was that their 
tethered sattilite might bounce back at them?  Think of see a really huge 
sail falling down around you.  It would, no doubt, bend the cable/guy wires 
beyond use even if the sail didn't rip itself apart after crumbling down.

The solution is to move out of the Sol beam path, pack up your sail (and no, 
I don't know how to do that), and wait for the retro-beam to reach the 
Asimov's range.  Then you move back into the Sol beam and then into the 
retro-beam.  You deploy your sail and voila.  Just pray that the retro-beam 
doesn't get jerked off target or else you'd better have a spare sail and a 
good robotic team to put it up.  Come to think of it, you'd need a lot of 
bots just to deploy the main sail.

kelly
I don't follow your manuver into and out of the beam. Whats the pupose?  The
beam from sol has to be on all the time the ship is in flight.

Furling in a 10,000 mile across, 5 million ton sail?!  You must be runing a
worse feaver than I am.

>Kelly
>Besides how
>could you keep the mirror perfectly focused with all the random fluxuations
>in the beam?  Keep the reflector tuned exactly to the sail, or know if the
>sail drifted a little due to problems, or back thrust from earth (that the
>reflector wouldn't see for months).

Brian
Random fluxuations from where?  Not in my refocusing retro-mirror design. 
 Oh no, I just realized something.  Even if you refocus the beam down into a 
smaller one via a series of mirrors, it will still have the same energy 
density distortions as the unfocuses beam.  They would just be on a smaller 
scale.  Exactly like a picture from a telescope.  Maybe the fluxuations 
won't be so bad.  Then again, maybe not.  But I don't see how we could 
correct for this.

Kelly
You have E7 maser transmitters firing to make the beam. Is they arn't in
perfect phase and angle they will interfear with one another and you will
have hot and cool spots in the beam.  Then iof course you are transmitting
this over 11 plus light years.  So you can expect beam degradation.


Brian
By the way.  It is possible, as I think you noted earlier this week, that 
the mirror would cause plenty of fluxations in its own write.  After all, 
the huge reflecting surface is an ultra-thin sheet that requires tension for 
shape and force from the Sol beam for tension.  I see where fluxuations 
would compound on fluxuations.  E-GAD!  THIS IS A NIGHTMARE!

Kelly
Ever watch a sail ripple in the wind?  Now imagine the reflections from those
ripples has to be precisly aimed at something light months, to light years
away.

Stop screeming.  I havent got to the bad part.  As you travel parts of the
reflect/sail will breakdown due to erosion.  As parts of the mesh and support
cables break apart.  The sail will wrinkle and streach into funny shapes.

Stop screaming!  
Ok.  Now for the bad part.  The beam presure on the reflector will push the
beam into curve droping down from its supporting points.  Given the reflector
has to be flexible.  It can't take the right shape for the reflections to be
aimed correctly.  Its like trying to see yourself in the reflection from a
layer of soap film hanging in screen door mesh.

Now you can screem.


Brian
Time for a reality check.

For this entire light sail idea to work, you 100% HAVE TO assume that the 
beam from the retro-mirror remains steady AND relatively free of 
fluxuations.  The Asimov will have to take care of itself and keep its 
posistion dead in the retro-beam.  Any mistakes and you have a wrecked sail. 
 Unless that can be replaced in a matter of a few days, your crew is going 
to have to drop weights (hab shielding mass which is where half of the ship 
mass is minus fuel/RM) and hope that whatever kind of sail you get up before 
slamming into the retro-mirror  can take the extra g's of deceleration.  Not 
to mention the crew.

Question: Why does reality have to bite so hard?

Kelly
Hey if it was easy, other people would have figured it out.  ;)

Kelly

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu
cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 23:38:45 -0500

Kevin C Houston

> Kelly:
> > > >Normal stuff, falls, smashing glass, electrical shorts, etc...  Solar
> > > >requires a lot of hands on work out of doors.  It has one of the
highest
> > > >labor overhead rates of major power systems.  So a lot of folks get
hurt.
> >  I
> > > >think about 10-20 times as much as coal or nukes.  Also solar has
thermal

> This is not fair comparison at all! >:-(  
> Kelly, you are comparing apples and oranges.  Plus I think you have 
> mis-stated the accident rate by a factor of at least 10.
> you can't compare solar collectors (PV) with a coal or nuclear power 
> plant, unless you also consider the accident rate from transmission 
> lines, substations, PCBs (in the transformers) etc


Those were the general overall injury rates per power cycle (minning,
generation, transmission, clean up, etc..), per given amount of power
generated.  This also included public injury potential.  For example
hydroelectric dams have low injuries, but in case of a dam failure they could
whipe out hundreds of thousands of people.

I did a reaserch paper on this in collage.

>>>>snip <<<<
>  I even helped with the installation on one house.  
> according to your 10-20 times higher accident rate, 
>  I should have fallen off that roof at least once.  out 
>  of five people (yes, it is a labor intensive tech) 
>  not one accident occured (discounting one guy who hit his 
>  thumb with a 

Are you kidding?  You m,ake it sound like I suggested everyone standing next
to the things will drop dead.  I said the injury rates are a lot higher for
solar.  Do you know how low comercial injury rates are?  A solar home subburb
couldn't run the secondary support system in a big power plant, much less act
like a fraction of its output stream.  Yet a big plant figures it kills a
couple people a year internally and downwind.  (Try matching those rates for
a county sized field of solar collectors and associated industries.)  


>  Falling off a roof is nothing compared to being killed in a 
> mine collapse, or getting cancer because the power company
> decides that paying the health and court costs of the two
> guys who get cancer is far cheaper than paying for adequate
> safety equipment-----

Actually policy decisions are made by the utility commisions.  I.E. by your
elected representatives.  Don't be so quick to blame a they.  Especially when
the they is us.

> > > >to get past political problems.  In my old neighbor hood in Wisconson
the
> > > >folks chased out a Nuke in favor of a coal plant and thought
themselves

> Where in Wisconsin are you from?

Kenosha (more corectly Pleasent Prarie just to the west) in the South East
corner of the state.

> Kevin

> P.S. Sorry for the confrontational tone, but I see you 
> repeating the standard power company line, and i know 
> that it is false.  

Sounds like your repeating the standard ecology assumptions and public
prejudice.  How do you know its wrong?  Or is it that you beleave its wrong
cause everybody assumes it is?

> Solar may not be the safest, the cheapest, or the cleanest, 
> but the reasons for this have nothing to do with the 
> technology, only with the politics and regulations.  -----

No it has more to do with the extreamly high labor and maintenence rates per
amount of power generated.  When you have far more people involved in mining,
manufacturing, maintaining, etc... per amount of power (especially if more of
them are home owners), you have higher accident and injury rates.


> It is not the cheapest because the true costs of coal and 
> oil are not being accounted for (resource depletion and 
> pollution) it is not the cleanest, because making the solar 
> cells themselves require many dangerous chemicals, but 
> once the cells are made, they are clean.  so all the 
> pollution can be confined to the factory that made the 
> cells, where it can be treated and disposed of by 
> professionals, not just blown into the air for the next 
> country/state to deal with.

Solar cels don't have polution effects?  You hang a lot of rusty metal around
they have an effect.  So do the mines, factories, the dumps that take the
disposed of cells, etc...

For polution obviously coal is the worst. A big plant puts out 30 tons of
carcinogens a day out its stack.  The same amount is draged out of the bottom
of its furnaces, and of course their are the mines!  All in all that will
kill (mines, trains, industrial, electrocution, downwind cancer) about a
50-100 (?) people a year (depending on stip mines vs deep mines).  But it
will be producing enough power for 3,000,000 homes, and the jobs to sustain
those people.  In the long run they no doubt save more lives than they cause.
 

Obviously we can do a lot better.  In comparison a nuke kills 1/10th a person
a year (safer hardrock mines and lower transport and polution numbers).  But
given that practical, safer, cleaner, systems are not politically very
popular at the moment were stuck with them.

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: bmansur@oc.edu, David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, stevev@efn.org,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 23:39:34 -0500

>Kelly responce:
>Plastics break down when subjected to UV, hard vac, and other things you 
get
>a lot of in space.

Brian
Why would hard vacuum be a problem to plastic?  Could the plastic be 
shielding from the UV etc.  What are those other things in space that you 
are talking about.  X-rays, hard radiation, dust, etc.?  I see a problem 
going on here.  URGH!

Kelly
Some of the bonding agents evaporate out of the plastic in vacume.

Yes, all those and more.  Also reaction with charged chemicals your runing
into and hudreds of thousands of miles per secound.

Kelly

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: bmansur@oc.edu, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
cc: David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, stevev@efn.org,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
Subject: Re: RE: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 23:40:36 -0500

>From Brian


>Brian
>Cutting in here a second.  How about we make the reaction mass out of maser 
>sails (many heavy (kg weight) starwisps?).  Problem is how to ionize them
>since they are design to reflect light.

>Kelly
>Are you proposeing the laser launcher be replaced with a maser sail system?
>That is not my intention for various reasons.

Brian
My idea was a random thought that I just threw in as a possible prelude to 
an idea.  What reasons did you have for not using maser beams?

Lasers can transmit more energy in a smaller beam.  This allow the pulse
laser rocket to do stearing of the canister.  Also the structure of the
canister is small and solid.  No big fragile sails.  This also mean the
canisters can turn quickly without tangeling there sails. 

>Brian
>I don't know that you'd get the canister up to even
>a %c and the exhaust would be going in the wrong direction.  Unless, of
>course, if you were reversing the direction of the canister so that the
>exhaust would head toward TC.  Am I following you?

>Kelly
>No.  As I showed you should be able to get up to a good % of C.  The
>canisters dock with the ship and offload fuel and are consumed for reaction
>mass.  Thou during return to Sol the canisters are dethonated ahead of the
>ship.

Brian
That's cool!

Kelly
Should be a flashy enterence!  ;)

>Kelly
>Oh, the Explorer Class is not intented for a T.C. flight.  With a top speed
>of maybe 1/3rd C its too slow.

Brian
Alpha Centauri, HO!

Kelly
Right!  Or one of the other stars at the 4 to maybe 7 light year range.  It
ain't Tau, but I try to do my part as the resident conservative designer.  ;)

>Brian
>I don't see how you are going to catch the canister (I admit that I'm
>skimming some of this since I have to do work very soon here).  I'll have 
to
>reread this idea some more but at least its a new idea.  I still don't see 
a
>solution for slowing down into TC though.

>Kelly
>The Explorer class slows down using fuel carried on board.

Brian
Back to the same old problems again.  Oh well.

Kelly
No, I figured out how much fuel the ship could carry.  Which shows it could
decelerate from about .3C if it didn't need to accelerate from sol with
onboard fuel.  Given very light efficent fusion motors of designs curently
being considered (well I assumed they are lighter given biger size and newer
(2050) technology) these were the performance numbers I though I could get.

Given the launchers, fusion motor, and an assumed ability to find fuel in the
target system (and a big check book) the Explorer class can now get to, and
back from, closer target stars in acceptable mission times.  If you build a
launcher system in both star system you can boost to higher speeds and
shorter flight times.

I was sure I sent this all around for comment!

Kelly

Kelly

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: bmansur@oc.edu, David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, stevev@efn.org,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re: Another new? idea
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 23:39:55 -0500

Brian Mansur



 ----------
From: KellySt
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden; stevev; jim; zkulpa; hous0042; rddesign; David; 
lparker; bmansur
Subject: Re: Another new? idea
Date: Wednesday, March 06, 1996 11:56PM


>>Kelly
> >I'ld say that was a clever idea, but since I'm sure I suggested it a
couple
> >days ago and no one noticed, I'll ignore you.  :-P

>Tim
> I'm sorry but I had no intend to make this idea look as if it was mine, I
> just wanted to restate it since, at least I was almost lost in this
avalance
> of letters.

>Kelly
>I wasn't offended.  I just thought you had lost it in the avalance, and 
then
half remembered it and thought you came up with it.

Brian
That avalanch is very much my doing.  More than half of the letters I've 
noticed had titles that originated from my keyboard.  To put things into 
perspective, I just finished saving and deleting 150+ letters, all of which 
were dated to the last week and a half.  I wrote more than 50 of them!  >>>

[Kelly re: And most of the rest were in responce to your comments.  Your
floding our systems!!  ;)  ]

<<<<>> Sigh of releaf from tired fingers internationally.  Seriously, at
least your sending something.  It is supposed to be a discusion group.  A
freash view and all that.  <<<


Brain
About giving credit where its due.  Most things that I, at least, have 
thought of have been inspired by something someone else in the group said. 
 What we're doing here is getting the pieces of the starship puzzle on the 
table and trying to make them fit.  It doesn't matter so much where we got 
them as it is whether or not the puzzle gets finished.  Then we can sign 
_all_ our names to it.  Since when did I start getting allegorical?  That's 
really scary.


Kelly 
You obviously need to rest.  Lay down, close your eyes, and you wake up a
nice cut throat competitor.  ;)

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu
cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Orbit B
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 23:38:56 -0500

to Kevin C Houston

> > On Wed, 6 Mar 1996 KellySt@aol.com wrote:

> > re Kevin C Houston
> > > Which is why i proposed building the maser array on a small,
innersystem 
> > > planet.  (like mercury)
> > 
> > Kind of useless for a reflector.  And as a transmitter the beam would be
> > moving side to side and couldn't keep to a fixed vector.
> > 

> No, think of a cone twelve light-years tall, with a base circle the size 
> of merc's orbit.  the angular deviations would be nearly 
> impossible to measure.  Let's just consider a 
> two-dimensional analogy. an isoceles triangle twelve 
> lightyears to a side, with a 72 million mile base:====


Lets consider that if the beam is 72 million miles across, and the sail is 10
thousand miles across; and the ship needs e18 watts of beam to hit the sail.
 The total power over the entire beam would need to be about e25 watts.  I
think we are starting to outpower the sun here Kevin.

Kelly

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Fresnel lenses again
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 16:32:06 +0100

Now that I think to understand the Fresnel lens, it isn't clear to me what
the advantage to us is.

In normal live these lenses are sometime more useful because they are flat
and are lighter. A disadvantage is that you can see all the rings, which
makes the image less clear.

But another way to make a lens is to use a curved mirror. This way the lens
has no interior and thus the advantage for using a Fresnel lens is only the
flatness and not the weight. Since we really don't need flatness I wonder
why some (Brian?) are suggesting to use such a lens.

Ah wait, I do know, Fresnel lenses are transparant, while a mirror isn't.

The advantage for a mirror is that is less dependant on the wavelength,
lenses do bend EM-waves different depending on their wavelength.
So since we are worring about doppler shifts a mirror may do it's work
better than a lens.

A final question is can we make a material that is transparant for
micro-waves and that can bend them enoug?

Another problem that we haven't thought of when using mirrors or lenses is
that they absorb some of the energy of the beam, this changes the density of
the lens/mirror. The result is that unwanted bumps arise and that the
focus-distance changes.

Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Mirrors (Round 3)
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 16:31:44 +0100

To Brain,

>Here is the idea.  Perhaps we could have these 10 km wide mirrors focus into 
>a mirror aparatus connected to them.  This aparatus could refocus the beam 
>and spit it out to the Asimov like a full blown maser.  The mirror complex 
>should weigh less than the alternative maser generator hardware (I hope).  I 
>wonder if  power losses due to reflection would beat out converting maser 
>beams to electricity and then back to maser beams.

Please give me a clue about how this aparatus works. You cannot use curved
mirrors alone, since they are a priory not perfectly curved.
And if you have figured out how you can turn a diffusive beam of light into
a parallel beam using mirrors only, I'm very interested since that would be
worth some money.

Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 16:32:22 +0100

Reply to Kelly and Steve, worring about ratios

>Actually, now that I think about it there is a dangerous likely flaw in
>this fuel launcher idea.
>
>Remember a while back when I ran the numbers on fuel-to-payload ratios
>for different fuel types?  Remember that hydrogen came out at _minimum_
>to need 1,000,000 units of hydrogen to one unit of payload to reach even
>low relativistic speeds.

It's a long time ago already, so I dug up you formula:

     /             2  \  ArcTanh[v]/a
    |  r Sqrt[1 - a ]  |
f = | ---------------- |
     \     r + a      /

f = fraction of mass that can be payload
r = reaction mass velocity (in lightspeed)
v = final spacecraft velocity (in lightspeed)
a = acceleration (in lightspeed --> 10 becomes 10/c)


Using a small r (0.081c) gives ratios of about f=1/45 which seems reasonable
compared to your 1:1,000,000. All this is for v=0.3c

For v=0.2 this ratio is down to 1:12, and for v=0.4 it is 1:180

With my own formulas I come to the same conclusion, some time ago I tried to
convince Kelly that with a 1:16 ratio we could come quite far.

Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 16:32:28 +0100

>Opps forgot to add the mass ration numbers.  :(
>
>Specific impulse
> (exaust velocity)
>                Speed 50,000,000 m/s (1/6 light
>                speed)
>                                              Speed 100,000,000 m/s (1/3 light
>                                              speed)
>   2,500,000 sec
> (25,000,000m/s)
>                7 to 1 mass ratio.
>                                              55 to 1 mass ratio.
>   2,000,000 sec
> (20,000,000m/s)
>                12 to 1 mass ratio.
>                                              148 to 1 mass ratio.
>   1,500,000 sec
> (15,000,000m/s)
>                27 to 1 mass ratio.
>                                              785 to 1 mass ratio.
>

Kelly, how did you calculate these numbers?

Tim


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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 16:32:44 +0100

>>As far as I know Fresnel lenses are not really lenses, that means they don't
>>magnify or bundle lightrays.
>
>Not necessarily true. Fresnel lenses have been used as magnifying glasses
>for years. Check into any good book on laser research.
>
>>These "lenses" are constructed in such a way that all outgoing light has the
>>same phase at a predetermined distance (the "focusing" distance). 
>
>True.
>
>>This way
>>the cancellation of two waves with a 180 degree phase difference is prevented.
>>So this method is only valid when normally INTERFERENCE makes de total
>>brightness different.
>
>Ummm, not sure.

I think my misunderstanding is already solved, but thanks.

Timothy

P.S. What is your first name?

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: MIRRORS  Argosy Class
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 16:33:12 +0100

>Brian
>If we could refocus the beam periodically along the way with several 
>refocusing  aparatus it would be possible.  Problem is with energy loses in 
>the refocusing and in getting the blasted things in place.  This idea just 
>keeps getting more complicated all the time.

It could very well be that every refocuser creates more and more diffusion
in the beam. I think these effects have a bigger influence on the efficiency
than the refocussing itself.

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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Subject: Re: RE: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 16:32:50 +0100

>>Kelly
>>No.  As I showed you should be able to get up to a good % of C.  The
>>canisters dock with the ship and offload fuel and are consumed for reaction
>>mass.  Thou during return to Sol the canisters are dethonated ahead of the
>>ship.
>
>Brian
>That's cool!

Tim
No it's hot! :)

=============================================================================

>Kelly
>Right!  Or one of the other stars at the 4 to maybe 7 light year range.  It
>ain't Tau, but I try to do my part as the resident conservative designer.  ;)

Tim:
I guess, I'm the progressive one? ;)


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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 16:32:16 +0100

>Hi,
>A couple days back, Tim ran threw the numbers to show what acceleration a
>'fuel packet' would need to get it up to 1/3rd light speed.  Assuming a 100
>meter long launcher, the numbers came out at E14 m/s^2  I.E. 10 trillions
>G's.  I was obviously upset to hear this.  However that information and a
>flip comment I made about the size of a fuel packet ("it could be as big as
>a freight car if you wanted") combined.

I did some extra calculations, it seems that electrons have a centrifugal
accleration of about 1E10 m/s/s when rotating about an atom-core. If we are
going to accelerate things so fast, atoms are going to be ionized. This
means no ordinairy matter could be used.

>So, if you station a laser tug every 100,000 miles or so.  They can take
>turns boosting a string of canisters.  Given orbital mechanics.  They will
>have to be continuously boosting themselves around to stay acceptably close
>to the 'Launcher' track.  (No stable orbits.)  Note that the exact
>possition of the tugs isn't important, but they must know exactly where
>they and the canisters are.  Given this system the launcher can be as long
>as you need at the moment.  If you space them out every 60,000 miles for
>100,000,000 kilometers (about a 1,000 tugs spaced from here to Mars.)  The
>average G load on a canister exiting at a speed of 1/3rd C, is E5 m/s^2, or
>about 100,000 gs.  Which seems reasonably possible for a solid block of
>reinforced metal and whatever.

So in short, you use a accelerator build up from several loose cannons in a
path spaced through our Solar system.

Changing the distances between accelerations may decrease the mean
acceleration but not the instant acceleration. I think it is the latter that
we need to be concerned about.

Your idea sounds good, but can the lasers correct the direction of the 100
ton packets?

Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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Subject: RE: Another new? idea
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 16:33:18 +0100

>Brian
>Flaps?  Hmmmm, I wonder how we could rig those without adding too much 
>support structure.  Definitely worth considering.  Might be easier than 
>tilting the whole mirror.

You could also make some holes at say the left side of the mirror. That
would make the whole mirror turn a bit to the right. After the mirror had
turned it would move a bit sideways. When at the right track, holes at the
right side could be opened to make the mirror turn back.
A problem that always exists is that the changing direction of the mirror
may add some unforseen stresses.

Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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Subject: Re: Another new? idea
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 16:33:23 +0100

To Kelly,

>I wasn't offended.  I just thought you had lost it in the avalance, and then
>half remembered it and thought you came up with it.

Yes, I wasn't sure anymore, in fact I started writing it after the first
letter I read, after reading more and more letters, I started realizing that
you guys had similar thoughts.

>> >Your talking about some heavy power equipment, but you've eliminated the
>> >almost impossible problem of cleanly reflecting the beam.
>
>> No, I wasn't reflecting it, I was retransmitting it by using maser-beams.
>
>Note: I said "eliminated the almost impossible problem of cleanly reflecting
>the beam".  I.E. you're not reflecting it.
>
>I think your snow blind from the E-mail avalanch.  ;)

Yes, I think so :)  Warn me again if I'm at the edge of a cliff...

>I wasn't thinking of it for here.  Sorry for confusion.  I'm still woundering
>if their is some better way to use the beam to decel.

sO AM i (iS MY caps-LOCK ON?)

>>>I was woundering if we could focus the beam on a reaction mass for some
>>>kind of plasm brake or something.  But can't remember the equations that 
>>>were geting thrown about.
>
>> I didn't understand what you want to have, could you restate it?
>
>Powe in watts to thrust equation if you have it.

You mean E=0.5 M v^2 and Power=E/t ?

Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: READ THIS FIRST or LAST (whatever)
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 16:33:34 +0100

OK, I'm catching up (I think)

Here a lot (10) of small (but fine) replies.

I've 26 letters to go.


CU l8er, Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 18:47:17 +0100

To Kelly,

>> Huh, even 15 years ago 1 Mb of memory would be payable 
>> for such a big organization.
>
>Not for a radiation hardened, custom military computer.  The memory wasn't in
>chips.  It was in magnetic cores (little dounuts of feric somthing or other)
>with wires runing threw it.

Yes, I've seen these magnetic memories (at least you can see the bits there)
But were that the mem-chips of 15 years ago? (Am I that old already?)

>The guys who programed them HATED them!

yeah, 256 kb is not too much.

But are todays Shuttles still having the same amount of memory?


Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Orbit B
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 18:47:22 +0100

To Kelly,

>> But this means that any beam, from Earth or from some kind of retro-mirror
>> would be impossible! (In fact this is one of the reasons I never really
>> liked using a beam and always tried to think of taking all fuel along)
>
>You'ld have to have a fixed aim beam of huge proportions.  Say 10-100 times
>the diameter of the sail (maybe it would need to be more?).  No I don't think
>the reflectors would work.

But I planned the retro-mirror would be at about the same size as the
earth-array. (Sounds awful doesn't it?)

>> Anyway since the retro-mirror flies in front, it would know what the path
>> would be like for the Asimov, so it could calculate where
>>  to direct using that data. 
>
>But the ship would be reacting to the stern thrust of the earth beam months
>before it would get to the mirror, and the mirror could respond.

No, the back- and forward beam aren't at the same place, they are at besides
each other.

>Besides how
>could you keep the mirror perfectly focused with all the random fluxuations
>in the beam?

With the capture and retransmit array (that has to be just about as large as
the beam)

>How the hell do you focus a lose flapping mesh sheet, the size of jupiter,
>while its taking 100s-1000's-? of G in acceleration?

I still don't agree with the size of the sail and the beam. The sail should
at maximum be 1 kilometre radius and the beam max 100 km radius.
And if we can make this thing work, I assume the accuracy could be made
better too.

The mirror would not accelerate any faster than the Asimov, since we are
smart enough to add some extra weight (if it isn't heavy from itself).

Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Orbit B
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 18:47:28 +0100

To Kevin,

>one of the nice things about this system is that the reflector can be 
>accelerated at just about any rate, (within reason) as it is un-manned. 
>given that we won't need large RM tanks, or a Kilometer long ion engine, 
>I think the entire weight of the Asimov can be drastically reduced to 
>crew support sections only.  While in-system, the Asimov uses a 
>visible-light solar sail to move around.  This system still requires a 
>construction project to build the return masers.
>
>Comments?  Suggestions? Flames?  ;)

Great, now we only need a way to accelerate that asteroid you are talking about.

Tim

From popserver Sat Mar  9 03:44:35 GMT 1996
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	nil)
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Orbit B
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 18:47:33 +0100

>Brian
>Random fluxuations from where?  Not in my refocusing retro-mirror design. 
> Oh no, I just realized something.  Even if you refocus the beam down into a 
>smaller one via a series of mirrors, it will still have the same energy 
>density distortions as the unfocuses beam.

Yes, that's what I meant writing a letter to you earlier this day (I'm still
catching up, only 10 to go)

>By the way.  It is possible, as I think you noted earlier this week, that 
>the mirror would cause plenty of fluxations in its own write.  After all, 
>the huge reflecting surface is an ultra-thin sheet that requires tension for 
>shape and force from the Sol beam for tension.  I see where fluxuations 
>would compound on fluxuations.  E-GAD!  THIS IS A NIGHTMARE!

I always had a more solid retro-mirror in mind. An advantage is that this
way the whole thing doesn't accelerate away like crazy.

>Time for a reality check.

No, I don't want to hear it... damn, I've to read it... ;)

>For this entire light sail idea to work, you 100% HAVE TO assume that the 
>beam from the retro-mirror remains steady AND relatively free of 
>fluxuations.  The Asimov will have to take care of itself and keep its 
>posistion dead in the retro-beam.  Any mistakes and you have a wrecked sail. 
> Unless that can be replaced in a matter of a few days, your crew is going 
>to have to drop weights (hab shielding mass which is where half of the ship 
>mass is minus fuel/RM) and hope that whatever kind of sail you get up before 
>slamming into the retro-mirror  can take the extra g's of deceleration.  Not 
>to mention the crew.

Now you did it, you've put us literally down to Earth...

>Question: Why does reality have to bite so hard?

I'm not listening...

>P = Power
>m =  Mass
>v = velocity
>c = lightspeed (3E8 m/s)
>
>P = [mc^2/(1 - (v^2)/(c^2))^.5] - mc^2 

Hmm, this is the relativistic formula but not for P but for E (energy).


Timothy

From popserver Sat Mar  9 03:44:37 GMT 1996
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	["1394" "Fri" "8" "March" "1996" "18:47:38" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "38" "Re: ; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:49:13 -0800 (PST)
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: > Sounds like a big mess, are they working towards balencing the budget or
>> hasn't there changed anything during the last years?
>
>Big mess!  Then on top of that you have investigations of criminal missdeads
>and coruption in the President, 1st lady, and white house staff.  (Working
>down town I got lots of jucy rumors from friends of saff.  The Clintons are
>lniown as the nastiest first couple in memory.)
>
>Not much is happening.  At least now balencing the budget is a serious
>intention. And since congress signs the checks.  No project gets new money
>without something geting cut.  
>
>This November is another election.  Good odds thatr the current president
>won't get reelected.  See what happens after that.

Those elections are a circus on themselves. Everytime when I see them on the
tele, I start thinking that everybody in the US must be crazy.

>Really.  I don't know how long it was before I noticed you were dutch.  I
>have a dog who's ansestors were nearly whiped out by one of you political
>werdnesses!  ;)  (Keeshond)

Yeah, thats a long time ago, I don't remember much about it from my history
classes.

>Which is why I respond so fast to E-mail sent to my office.

I was already wondering.

>The organization is clueless, and I hate the city.  Expect a new job for me
>this summer.

Do you already have a clue what kind of job it is going to be?

Tim



From popserver Sat Mar  9 03:44:39 GMT 1996
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	["342" "Fri" "8" "March" "1996" "18:47:49" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "9" "Re: ; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:49:22 -0800 (PST)
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: You should really be more careful what you say on an open line, I happen 
>to work for the agency that oversees Goverment Military contracts  ;)
>Defense Contract Management Area Office (DCMAO) 
>Luckily for you, I am just a lowly Student-worker, and our area of 
>jurisdiction is upper midwest.   :)

Ah, he quitting his job anyway ;)

Tim

From popserver Sat Mar  9 03:44:40 GMT 1996
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	["606" "Fri" "8" "March" "1996" "18:47:44" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "18" "Re: ; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:49:23 -0800 (PST)
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: > Sounds like a big mess, are they working towards balencing the budget or
>> hasn't there changed anything during the last years?
>> 
>No, the new congress has been too busy trying to regulate the citizens' 
>sex lives.

I've read a lot about it since two weeks ago. I seems it's not so black and
white as you make it sound.

>> (I'm really amazed that we write since such a long time now, but still know
>> so little about each other)
>
>Well, that's what happens when you have friends that you've never met. :)

Yes, It's a pitty. It's quite an end from here to there. A photo would be
handy too.

Tim

From popserver Sat Mar  9 03:44:41 GMT 1996
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Problems
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 18:47:53 +0100

To Brian

> Now that I have a concept of how to get a sail driven starship to TC in 
>less than 50 years, I'm trying to get some questions answered on the ship's 
>dry weight requirements and whether or not they can be met.
>My Argosy design, as of last night, requires:
>
>1000km wide sail.
>A crew of 400
>An exploration module (ion drive plus habitat) weight of 350,000 tons minus 
>reaction mass
>A maximum cruise velocity of .75c.
>A minimum power requirement of 1E18W.
>
>1.  Can a 1000 km wide sail made mostly of chicken wire or flimsy silver 
>foil be rigged to support a 350,000 ton ship without being ripped to shreds? 

The pressure on every part of the sail would be 10 bar (1E6 Pa). You could
easely bend chickenwire with such a force. Besides this, there have to be
connections to the ship, at these connections the pressures would be much
higher, since they collect all the force to a small area.
So if you aren't going to make connection wires every metre, I don't think
the thing will hold.

>2. Will the guy wires/cables snap under their own weight given a 10m/s^2 
>acceleration?

That depends on the amount of cables (see above).

>3. How heavy would the cables need to be to prevent snapping.  Tim gave me 
>some equations a while back when I wanted to tether a solar collector array 
>to Mercury.  I haven't had time to try to make sense of them but he said the 
>cables would probably snap under their own weight.

Yes, but that assumed very long cables, these cables are about 2 kilometres
at max.


Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: RETRO MIRROR SCHEMES
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 18:47:59 +0100

>Since I'm we're talking about system efficiencies.  I wonder if it would be 
>better to skip masers and use  visible light reflecting sails.   LISTEN UP. 
> THIS IS IMPORTANT.  We know that our masers waste 90% of their power just 
>to transmit (right?).  If we were using solar panels like on the Hubble, 
>then that is another 90% lost.  Already our 1E18 W needed to accelerate the 
>Asimov is up to 1E20.  This gets worse as we transmit across interstellar 
>distances through refocusing array's and retro-mirrors before ever getting 
>to the Asimov which will have a none too pretty reflective sail itself. 
> This could easily put our starting power bill at 1E21.
>
>IDEA!  Why not skip converting the sunlight and just gather it directly into 
>lasers using these huge mirror apparatuses that I'm proposing.  The arrays 
>aroundSol would need to be heavy to keep from getting blown away, but that's 
>okay.

How would you transfer the solar energy to nice laser beams? I haven't the
faintest idea how that could be done directly.

Tim

From popserver Sat Mar  9 03:45:29 GMT 1996
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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
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        stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
To: zkulpa 
Subject: Re: RETRO MIRROR SCHEMES
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 96 13:03:00 PST



 ----------
From: T.L.G.vanderLinden
To: KellySt; kgstar; stevev; jim; zkulpa; hous0042; rddesign; David; 
lparker; bmansur
Subject: Re: RETRO MIRROR SCHEMES
Date: Friday, March 08, 1996 6:47PM

>From Brian

>Tim
>How would you transfer the solar energy to nice laser beams? I haven't the
>faintest idea how that could be done directly.

Brian
Sunlight already IS a laser beam.  Its only very a diffuse one.


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From: Brian Mansur 
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         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
To: zkulpa 
Subject: RE: Fresnel lenses again
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 96 13:54:00 PST



 ----------
From: T.L.G.vanderLinden
To: KellySt; kgstar; stevev; jim; zkulpa; hous0042; rddesign; David; 
lparker; bmansur
Subject: Fresnel lenses again
Date: Friday, March 08, 1996 4:32PM

Brian

>Tim
>Another problem that we haven't thought of when using mirrors or lenses is
>that they absorb some of the energy of the beam, this changes the density 
of
>the lens/mirror. The result is that unwanted bumps arise and that the
>focus-distance changes.

Brian
Density change?  Why would the lense/mirror, have a change in density.  Or 
are you talking about changing the density that the design calls for?  Why 
would there be bumps?

From popserver Sat Mar  9 03:45:59 GMT 1996
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        stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
To: zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Mirrors (Round 3)
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 96 14:00:00 PST



 ----------
From: T.L.G.vanderLinden
To: KellySt; kgstar; stevev; jim; zkulpa; hous0042; rddesign; David; 
lparker; bmansur
Subject: Re: Mirrors (Round 3)
Date: Friday, March 08, 1996 4:31PM

To Brain,

>Here is the idea.  Perhaps we could have these 10 km wide mirrors focus 
into
>a mirror aparatus connected to them.  This aparatus could refocus the beam
>and spit it out to the Asimov like a full blown maser.  The mirror complex
>should weigh less than the alternative maser generator hardware (I hope). 
 I
>wonder if  power losses due to reflection would beat out converting maser
>beams to electricity and then back to maser beams.

Please give me a clue about how this aparatus works. You cannot use curved
mirrors alone, since they are a priory not perfectly curved.
And if you have figured out how you can turn a diffusive beam of light into
a parallel beam using mirrors only, I'm very interested since that would be
worth some money.

Brian.
You are right.  We would have to run the beam through a lense that would 
bend the beams to parallel vectors.  Found that out just thirty minutes ago. 
 Not going to be easy to accomplish on a retro mirror if wavelengths tend to 
change through doplar shifts

NOTE TO GROUP:  I have to go now but I wanted to forwarn you about a 
conclusion I had about this whole retro-mirror, light-sail propulsion, 
automotive technology problem.  Its coming tomorrow so get ready for me to 
slam the hammer down.  (hint: I plan on breaking a lot of unneeded 
glass/plastic mirrors, etc. and completely rewriting the mission 
definition).   Got to go to class.  RIGHT NOW!

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From: "L. Parker" 
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu
Subject: Re: RETRO MIRROR SCHEMES
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 16:15:31 -0600

At 06:47 PM 3/8/96 +0100, you wrote:

>>IDEA!  Why not skip converting the sunlight and just gather it directly into 
>>lasers using these huge mirror apparatuses that I'm proposing.  The arrays 
>>aroundSol would need to be heavy to keep from getting blown away, but that's 
>>okay.

I mentioned this to Kelly some time ago, but didn't send it to every one
else. There was an article published in Scientific American about 10 or 15
years ago where someone had figured out how to make a MECHANICAL (that's
what you call it when it only uses mirrors)Solar Pumped Laser. Some sort of
spiral collector/intensifier with flute shaped collimators.

Anyway, without any moving parts it is capagle of generating a visible light
laser from the Sun the only part I don't get is how you can have a
polychromatic laser in the first place, since by definition a laser is
monochromatic...

Anyway, since there is no conversion the only loss would be to thermal
heating from internal absorption, it should be very efficient. And real
CHEAP to build.

Lee
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: David , hous0042 ,
        jim ,
         Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Argosy Mission Overhaul
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 96 15:18:00 PST


>From Brian Mansur

(I used my last name so this must be important, at least to me).

ARGOSY MISSION OVERHAUL

Here it is, the new plan.  We are no longer on a mission of exploration 
(sound of the LIT charter being crumpled up).  We are, in fact, now 
colonizing every star within 20 or so light years.  "How?"  you say.  Okay. 
 Here is the deal.

All this week we've been running through ideas on how to redirect the 
maser/laser beam to stop the Asimov.  We've run through complex reflective 
sail apparatuses that are nearing the size of Jupiter.  I won't go through 
all the problems with these apparatuses, but I will point out one thing they 
all require.  For any manned lightsail/MARS propulsion idea to work, it is 
required that humans completely master of automotive technology.  This 
extent of "mastery" is to the point that robots could, on their own,  build, 
launch, and maintain humungous reflective arrays for over fifty years.

Here is my proposal.  If the robots are that good, they are good enough to 
handle this TC exploration mission just as well as humans (in terms of 
setting up pre-planned experiments, doing basic surveys, and transmitting 
the data back to Sol.  And since they are already capable of making huge 
reflective arrays and, in fact, must have done so around Sol to provide 
power to launch the maser/laser driven sails that towed their ship to TC, 
they must then be capable of setting up a similar array around TC.  So 
instead of launching a 100,000 to 500,000 ton starship to carry a measly 100 
 - 1000 person crew, this is what we will do.

Launch a small, .33c maser sail launched  ion rocket that carries enough 
robots to start a robot civilization at TC.  Note that the speed choice of 
..33c could be increased if we find rockets that could stop themselves from 
higher speeds.  But a rocket would probably be better than lightsailing 
which is what this whole plan revolves around.  So for now we're assuming 
..33c.  The ion rocket plus its payload will weigh very, very little compared 
to 100,000 tons as envisioned in the Explorer Class paper.  This should be 
expected since the ship is carrying robots in its cargo bays and doesn't (we 
should pray) need to have nearly the amount of shielding as a human filled 
hab section.  It will have to carry enough fuel, of course, for the breaking 
step.  This brings us back to the problem of stopping which we can work on 
later.  But since I am envisioning a 10,000 ton dry ship weight.  (Everyone 
does a double take.  Yes I wrote 1E4 tons not 1E5.  If our robots are worth 
anything, a seed robot ship should be compact enough to make  this doable.

Once the ship has arrived in the system, it locates a suitable asteroid as 
close to TC as it can find in a reasonable amount of time and it starts 
building robots and power collection arrays out of it.  The robots build 
masers that will then be used to stop high speed settler Argosies coming in 
from Sol.

This is just an outline of the new plan for human conquest of interstellar 
space.  And guess what!  I have solved the problem of the inhospitibility of 
planets and moons that are too far from their stars to be warm enough to 
live on.  What we do is have the robots build extra solar collectors and 
laser (not maser) arrays.  They then shine the lights on that distant planet 
as if they were shining a sun lamp.  This could be done in our solar system 
to heat up Mars, Europa, Titan, Encledes, and just about anyplace else. 
 Solving the problem of how to keep the lights on a moon that passes behind 
its planet every now and then can be solved with reflectors on another, dead 
moon (for Jupiter and Saturn,  there are several).  Note that I haven't yet 
worked out a way to account for slow rotations that would otherwise give 
uneven heating.  I have some ideas but my time for writing is running out 
for today.

I said at the beginning that super automation was assumed.  Humans could 
build and support 1E20 Watt arrays (assume overall efficiency to starship at 
1% to ensure that 1E18 reaches in all phases of flight).  But only if the 
entire human race pitched in.  I've got to go.  I don't suppose there is 
much to comment on what I've taken half an hour to write since this paper is 
built on that automotive assumption.  Basically if you have a robot 
workforce that can build anything, that is just what people will direct them 
to do: build anything.

I'll include this plan in my Argosy paper.  That paper will probably be a 
description of how a maser/laser driven ship would look like, inside and 
out.  Also it will give the plans that we've discussed so far on how to stop 
it.  That includes everything from retro-mirrors to portable maser arrays to 
RM to another maser set up at TC.

Have a nice day.

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: RE: Fresnel lenses again
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 23:59:53 +0100

To Brian,

>>Tim
>>Another problem that we haven't thought of when using mirrors or lenses is
>>that they absorb some of the energy of the beam, this changes the density 
>of
>>the lens/mirror. The result is that unwanted bumps arise and that the
>>focus-distance changes.
>
>Brian
>Density change?  Why would the lense/mirror, have a change in density.  Or 
>are you talking about changing the density that the design calls for?  Why 
>would there be bumps?

When some of the energy of the beam is absorbed, that means the lens/mirror
get a bit warmer (or hotter). When things get warm their density decreases
and their shape changes. Chances are that the material where the lens is
constructed from is not equal everywhere and probably neither is the density
of the beam.
So unequal amounts of expansion will occur making the problem even worse.

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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Subject: Re: RETRO MIRROR SCHEMES
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 23:59:58 +0100

To Brian

>>Tim
>>How would you transfer the solar energy to nice laser beams? I haven't the
>>faintest idea how that could be done directly.
>
>Brian
>Sunlight already IS a laser beam.  Its only very a diffuse one.

Hmm, what do you call a laser beam? I think most people think of a
monochromatic parallel beam of light, the Sun doesn't have either of these
qualities.
But without discussing the properties of a laser, let me rephrase my question:
How are you going turn Sunlight into a parallel beam of near chromatic light.
(with "near chromatic" I mean a small waveband, since directing all
wavelengths to the Asimov will certainly mean that it ionizes instantly. The
latter happens because it isn't possible to reflect all wavelenghts, so the
ones that hit the Asimov wil ionize it.)

Tim

P.S. Now it seems we have such an aparatus, seen the reply to Lee (same subject)

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Mirrors (Round 3)
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 00:00:04 +0100

>Date: Friday, March 08, 1996 4:31PM

>Tim
>Please give me a clue about how this aparatus works. You cannot use curved
>mirrors alone, since they are a priory not perfectly curved.
>And if you have figured out how you can turn a diffusive beam of light into
>a parallel beam using mirrors only, I'm very interested since that would be
>worth some money.
>
>Brian.
>You are right.  We would have to run the beam through a lense that would 
>bend the beams to parallel vectors.  Found that out just thirty minutes ago. 
> Not going to be easy to accomplish on a retro mirror if wavelengths tend to 
>change through doplar shifts

Indeed what we need is an apparatus that can collect light from all
directions and shines it in one direction. The problem is how do we make
such a thing without energy conversions.

  \
    \
      \_________
       _________    Kind of like a funnel
      /
    /
  /


>NOTE TO GROUP:  I have to go now but I wanted to forwarn you about a 
>conclusion I had about this whole retro-mirror, light-sail propulsion, 
>automotive technology problem.  Its coming tomorrow so get ready for me to 
>slam the hammer down.  (hint: I plan on breaking a lot of unneeded 
>glass/plastic mirrors, etc. and completely rewriting the mission 
>definition).   Got to go to class.  RIGHT NOW!

You're one minute late already.... I feel sorry for you, having class at
4:30 at friday afternoon.
Are you living on campus?

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: RETRO MIRROR SCHEMES
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 00:00:13 +0100

To Lee,

>>>IDEA!  Why not skip converting the sunlight and just gather it directly into 
>>>lasers using these huge mirror apparatuses that I'm proposing.  The arrays 
>>>aroundSol would need to be heavy to keep from getting blown away, but that's 
>>>okay.
>
>I mentioned this to Kelly some time ago, but didn't send it to every one
>else. There was an article published in Scientific American about 10 or 15
>years ago where someone had figured out how to make a MECHANICAL (that's
>what you call it when it only uses mirrors)Solar Pumped Laser. Some sort of
>spiral collector/intensifier with flute shaped collimators.
>
>Anyway, without any moving parts it is capagle of generating a visible light
>laser from the Sun the only part I don't get is how you can have a
>polychromatic laser in the first place, since by definition a laser is
>monochromatic...
>
>Anyway, since there is no conversion the only loss would be to thermal
>heating from internal absorption, it should be very efficient. And real
>CHEAP to build.

THIS IS IT, for the last few days I've been thinking about how wonderful it
would be for us to have such a device.

Not only could we use it as a solar collector-laser but even more important
also as retro-mirror!

Do you know a more exact year or title? Anything that would help me to track
down the article?

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Orbit B
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 00:00:08 +0100

To Lee,

>I know you can make a sail from vacuum deposited metal film only 100 atoms
>thick. I also know that this is suitable only for low fractional c flight
>regimes where erosion is not a serious problem and drag coefficients don't
>come into play. In order to realize a practical amount of thrust from a sail
>it must be lighter than MYLAR by a factor of at least ten....

The problem is how do you attach a 1000 ton starship to it.

>Have you considered the effect of erosion on your(any) sail at substantial
>fractions of c?

Since I'm not sure whom you are asking these questions, I will answer them
for the design I've in mind.
Since I'm thinking of a quite solid sail build of aluminium or something
like that, I'm not worried much about corrosion, even small debris will just
make some holes in it without doing much more damage.

>What is the drag coefficent of such a sail in the ICM? 

Is ICM the same as ISM? The drag will be neglectable, this is something we
assumed for a long time.

>At
>what speed does the acceleration balance drag? Is this before or after the
>sail is shredded?

Only at very high c, probably far beyond 0.99c. I don't see any reason why
the sail would brake if the pressure is equally divided.

Timothy

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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: KellySt@aol.com
cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Orbit B
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 17:02:16 -0600 (CST)

Kelly:
> Kevin:
> > No, think of a cone twelve light-years tall, with a base circle the size 
> > of merc's orbit.  the angular deviations would be nearly 
> > impossible to measure.  Let's just consider a 
> > two-dimensional analogy. an isoceles triangle twelve 
> > lightyears to a side, with a 72 million mile base:====
> 
> 
> Lets consider that if the beam is 72 million miles across, and the sail is 10
> thousand miles across; and the ship needs e18 watts of beam to hit the sail.
>  The total power over the entire beam would need to be about e25 watts.  I
> think we are starting to outpower the sun here Kevin.

No, the beam is not 72 million miles wide, silly.  the entire cone is 72 
million miles wide at the base.  go back to the two dimensional analogy, 
the beam starts on one leg of the triangle, stays there for 44 days (half 
of merc's orbital period) then switches to the other leg for 44 days.  in 
both positions, it's beam width is only slightly bigger than the sail. 
(to overcome jitter effects).  

Switching back to the three dimensional world, the beam would have a 
radius 650 Km larger than the radius of the Asimov's sail.  (that being 
the maximum amount of jitter that a gyro stabilized system could produce)
as Mercury sweeps out it's orbit, tracking stations at the south polar 
transmission center keep it pointed at TC.  because the height of the 
cone is orders of magnitude greater than the length of the base, there 
would be very little effect on the Asimov.

Kevin

P.S.  I'm not going to respond to the solar/conventional power argument 
in this newsletter, we gots enough mail as it is.  

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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: KellySt@aol.com
cc: bmansur@oc.edu, David@interworld.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com, stevev@efn.org,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Avalanche!   
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 17:06:30 -0600 (CST)

5 new messages arrived in the time it takes me to read/respond to 3.  Help!
at least I got a new phone line, so that my wife (Genny, the most patient 
woman on the face of this or any other planet.) can use the house line.

Kevin (figuring that one more letter won't hurt anyone)

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In-Reply-To: <199603081747.AA22199@student.utwente.nl>
Message-ID: 
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Timothy van der Linden 
cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Orbit B
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 17:36:00 -0600 (CST)



> To Kevin,
> Great, now we only need a way to accelerate that asteroid you are talking about.
> Tim

Okay, I'm going to try to do some ascii art that i hope will make things 
clearer.  Itried once already, but then lost the connection, and the 
stupid university computer didn't save my file.   AAARRRGGGHHH!



anyway, here goes:
Sol is on the left, TC is on the right.  R is the retro-reflector, A is 
the Asimov

Stage one:  acceleration of Retro-rflector.   (these photons are ~)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~R

the mass of the retro reflector is about 2 E9 Kg (sound familer?)
the beam is 1 E18 watts the reflector gets to .75 C and coasts.

Stage two:

decellerating energy is sent (ahead of the asimov)(these photons are =)

one LY long                      tail end of accel energy
================>                         ~~~~R (.75C)

Stage three:
Asimov is accelerated to near light speed (these photons are ~)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~A                  <================R ( approx C)

Stage four: Sol-based Accel beam cuts out at halfwaypoint.
Just as Retro reflected beam catches up to Asimov

Note, the decell beam (==) will be red-shifted, but that's okay, beacuse 
when Asimov plows into it, it will blue-shift it  :)


                          ~A  <======================                R

Stage five: Asimov uses the decell beam to slow down to Target star.


Kevin

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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: interstellar drive group , David@interworld.com,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: I did it!
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 17:49:16 -0600 (CST)

I got to the last message!

Kevin (standing up, brushing snow off himself.....)


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In-Reply-To: <199603081747.AA22190@student.utwente.nl>
References: <199603081747.AA22190@student.utwente.nl>
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 20:12:20 -0800

Timothy van der Linden writes:
 > Yes, I've seen these magnetic memories (at least you can see the bits there)
 > But were that the mem-chips of 15 years ago? (Am I that old already?)

Core memory was widely used up to about 15 years ago.  Core memory
doesn't come in chip form, though; it comes in planes or blocks of
planes, with the toroidal cores strung on lattices of wire.

Core memory is still used in a few applications, although sometimes just
for historical reasons.  It does have the advantage of being
radiation-hard (find me a cosmic ray big enough to wipe out a 1 mm
ferrite core) and non-volatile.  By the time it was phased out in favor
of semiconductor memory it was also not far off in access time -- good
core had a cycle time of less than 1 microsecond, although it took a lot
more power to write it.

 > >The guys who programed them HATED them!
 > 
 > yeah, 256 kb is not too much.
 > 
 > But are todays Shuttles still having the same amount of memory?

Do you know what it takes to certify a computer system for use as a
control device in a man-rated aircraft, especially the software?
Generally you only do it once.  That's why the shuttle computers and
software are still unchanged from the time they were designed.
Supposedly they're working on a new computer design, but you won't see
it for a while.

 > Tim

From popserver Sat Mar  9 06:02:15 GMT 1996
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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.magec.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 00:57:29 -0500

>Opps forgot to add the mass ration numbers.  :(
>
>Specific impulse
> (exaust velocity)
>                Speed 50,000,000 m/s (1/6 light
>                speed)
>                                              Speed 100,000,000 m/s (1/3
light
>                                              speed)
>   2,500,000 sec
> (25,000,000m/s)
>                7 to 1 mass ratio.
>                                              55 to 1 mass ratio.
>   2,000,000 sec
> (20,000,000m/s)
>                12 to 1 mass ratio.
>                                              148 to 1 mass ratio.
>   1,500,000 sec
> (15,000,000m/s)
>                27 to 1 mass ratio.
>                                              785 to 1 mass ratio.
>

>> Kelly, how did you calculate these numbers?

>> Tim

Used the rocket equation in the start of the Dani Eder document (don't have
it with me now), and the software in the LIT computer center.

Kelly

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.magec.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Another new? idea
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 00:57:57 -0500

> >>>I was woundering if we could focus the beam on a reaction mass for some
> >>>kind of plasm brake or something.  But can't remember the equations that

> >>>were geting thrown about.
> >
> >> I didn't understand what you want to have, could you restate it?
> >
> >Powe in watts to thrust equation if you have it.

> You mean E=0.5 M v^2 and Power=E/t ?

No I was woundering about the amount of wattage to the amount of momentum, or
wattage to specific impulse in a reaction mass.  I'm woundering about using
the beam to run a microwave powered rocket, rather than a sail.

Kelly

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.magec.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: RE: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 00:57:29 -0500

>>Kelly
> >>No.  As I showed you should be able to get up to a good % of C.  The
> >>canisters dock with the ship and offload fuel and are consumed for
reaction
> >>mass.  Thou during return to Sol the canisters are dethonated ahead of
the
> >>ship.
> >
> >Brian
> >That's cool!

> Tim
> No it's hot! :)

Kelly
Thank you, Thank you.  The bad news will probably when I figure the amount of
reaction mass the canisters need (at least it can be cheap stuff) and the
laser power needed.  But its still a nice simple system.

=============================================================================

> >Kelly
> >Right!  Or one of the other stars at the 4 to maybe 7 light year range.
 It
> >ain't Tau, but I try to do my part as the resident conservative designer.
 ;)

> Tim:
> I guess, I'm the progressive one? ;)

Kelly
Exotic, optimistic (CRAZY!).  ;)

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: bmansur@oc.edu, David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, kgstar@most.magec.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com, stevev@efn.org,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
Subject: Re: RETRO MIRROR SCHEMES
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 00:58:54 -0500

> >Tim
> >How would you transfer the solar energy to nice laser beams? I haven't the
> >faintest idea how that could be done directly.

> Brian
> Sunlight already IS a laser beam.  Its only very a diffuse one.

Kelly
No, sunlight is multi-spectral, no coherent, and several other things that
lasers never are.

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.magec.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Orbit B
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 00:58:25 -0500

To Tim

> To Kelly,

> >> But this means that any beam, from Earth or from some kind of
retro-mirror
> >> would be impossible! (In fact this is one of the reasons I never really
> >> liked using a beam and always tried to think of taking all fuel along)
> >
> >You'ld have to have a fixed aim beam of huge proportions.  Say 10-100
times
> >the diameter of the sail (maybe it would need to be more?).  No I don't
think
> >the reflectors would work.

> But I planned the retro-mirror would be at about the same size as the
> earth-array. (Sounds awful doesn't it?)

Doesn't sound possible.  You'ld have to get some divergence.  You'ld need to
send a beam much larger than the sail/reflector in order to make sure their
was an acceptable sized hot zone for the ship to manuver slightly in.

> >> Anyway since the retro-mirror flies in front, it would know what the
path
> >> would be like for the Asimov, so it could calculate where
> >>  to direct using that data. 
> >
> >But the ship would be reacting to the stern thrust of the earth beam
months
> >before it would get to the mirror, and the mirror could respond.

> No, the back- and forward beam aren't at the same place, 
> they are at besides each other.

Then the relfector (and ship) would be under lateral thrust that would shove
it out of the beam, and the reflector work have to aim to hit the ship.
 Since it couldn't know or see the ship to aim, it would presumably miss.

> >Besides how
> >could you keep the mirror perfectly focused with all the random
fluxuations
> >in the beam?

> With the capture and retransmit array (that has to be just 
> about as large as the beam)

How would that help?  The beam from earth would be fluttery by the time it
got to the reflector or retransmitter array.  So that would chew up the
microwave converters of catcher mesh (depending).

> >How the hell do you focus a lose flapping mesh sheet, the size of jupiter,
> >while its taking 100s-1000's-? of G in acceleration?

> I still don't agree with the size of the sail and the beam. The sail should
> at maximum be 1 kilometre radius and the beam max 100 km radius.
> And if we can make this thing work, I assume the accuracy could be made
better too.

e18 in a 1Km beam?  Kept that tight over interstellar distences?  Neat trick.

> The mirror would not accelerate any faster than the Asimov, since we are
> smart enough to add some extra weight (if it isn't heavy from itself).

Thats a lot of waste mass, and it wouldn't effect it flaping.

Kelly

From popserver Sat Mar  9 06:02:29 GMT 1996
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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.magec.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re:  To Kelly,
> >> Sounds like a big mess, are they working towards balencing the budget or
> >> hasn't there changed anything during the last years?
> >
> >Big mess!  Then on top of that you have investigations of criminal
missdeads
> >and coruption in the President, 1st lady, and white house staff.  (Working
> >down town I got lots of jucy rumors from friends of saff.  The Clintons
are
> >known as the nastiest first couple in memory.)
> >
> >Not much is happening.  At least now balencing the budget is a serious
> >intention. And since congress signs the checks.  No project gets new money
> >without something geting cut.  
> >
> >This November is another election.  Good odds thatr the current president
> >won't get reelected.  See what happens after that.

> Those elections are a circus on themselves. Everytime 
> when I see them on the tele, I start thinking that 
> everybody in the US must be crazy.

In the U.S. no.  In Washington, yes.  I've heard of people who demand special
tratment at check out counters because their husband knows a congressional
aid.

Most of the country thinks the elections are a circus, but where else do
clowns go to show off.  ;)

> >Really.  I don't know how long it was before I noticed you were dutch.  I
> >have a dog who's ansestors were nearly whiped out by one of your political
> >werdnesses!  ;)  (Keeshond)

> Yeah, thats a long time ago, I don't remember much about 
> it from my history classes.

Well, I guess its good my dog doesn't hold a grudge.  ;)

> >The organization is clueless, and I hate the city.  Expect a new job for
me
> >this summer.

> Do you already have a clue what kind of job it is going to be?

Nope.

Kelly

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.magec.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 00:57:49 -0500

to Timothy van der Linden

> >Hi,
> >A couple days back, Tim ran threw the numbers to show what acceleration a
> >'fuel packet' would need to get it up to 1/3rd light speed.  Assuming a
100
> >meter long launcher, the numbers came out at E14 m/s^2  I.E. 10 trillions
> >G's.  I was obviously upset to hear this.  However that information and a
> >flip comment I made about the size of a fuel packet ("it could be as big
as
> >a freight car if you wanted") combined.

> I did some extra calculations, it seems that electrons have a centrifugal
> accleration of about 1E10 m/s/s when rotating about an atom-core. If we are
> going to accelerate things so fast, atoms are going to be ionized. This
> means no ordinairy matter could be used.


Well, I suppose we only really wanted the nucleous anyway...



> >So, if you station a laser tug every 100,000 miles or so.  They can take
> >turns boosting a string of canisters.  Given orbital mechanics.  They will
> >have to be continuously boosting themselves around to stay acceptably
close
> >to the 'Launcher' track.  (No stable orbits.)  Note that the exact
> >possition of the tugs isn't important, but they must know exactly where
> >they and the canisters are.  Given this system the launcher can be as long
> >as you need at the moment.  If you space them out every 60,000 miles for
> >100,000,000 kilometers (about a 1,000 tugs spaced from here to Mars.)  The
> >average G load on a canister exiting at a speed of 1/3rd C, is E5 m/s^2,
or
> >about 100,000 gs.  Which seems reasonably possible for a solid block of
> >reinforced metal and whatever.

> So in short, you use a accelerator build up from several loose cannons in a
> path spaced through our Solar system.

Cannons?  I don't follow.

> Changing the distances between accelerations may decrease the mean
> acceleration but not the instant acceleration. I think it is the latter
that
> we need to be concerned about.

No, the canisters would be undergoing contiuous boost for the entire launch
track.  (Well, their might be a secound or two gap when one laser tug hand
off to the next.)

> Your idea sounds good, but can the lasers correct the 
> direction of the 100 ton packets?

Sure.  They can stear durring boost, and a bit of reaction mass added to the
sides can be used for course fine tuning with some lateral thrust.

Kelly

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.magec.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 00:59:08 -0500

Timothy van der Linden

> To Kelly,

> >> Huh, even 15 years ago 1 Mb of memory would be payable 
> >> for such a big organization.
> >
> >Not for a radiation hardened, custom military computer.  The memory wasn't
in
> >chips.  It was in magnetic cores (little dounuts of feric somthing or
other)
> >with wires runing threw it.

> Yes, I've seen these magnetic memories (at least you can see the bits
there)
> But were that the mem-chips of 15 years ago? (Am I that old already?)

No, but it was the memory of 30-40 years ago when the computers were built.

> >The guys who programed them HATED them!

> yeah, 256 kb is not too much.

> But are todays Shuttles still having the same amount of memory?

They upgraded them to 256 chip ram.  I think?

Kelly

From popserver Sat Mar  9 06:07:43 GMT 1996
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	["466" "Sat" "9" "March" "1996" "01:00:07" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "14" "Re: ; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 22:02:14 -0800 (PST)
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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.magec.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re:  >You should really be more careful what you say on an open line, I happen 
> >to work for the agency that oversees Goverment Military contracts  ;)
> >Defense Contract Management Area Office (DCMAO) 
> >Luckily for you, I am just a lowly Student-worker, and our area of 
> >jurisdiction is upper midwest.   :)

> Ah, he quitting his job anyway ;)

Hey, were a Army showcase program!  Just think what the dregs must be like!
 ;)

Kelly

From popserver Sat Mar  9 17:34:19 GMT 1996
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	["1965" "Sat" "9" "March" "1996" "11:10:12" "-0600" "L. Parker" "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com" nil "34" "Laser Aperture Size" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: "L. Parker" 
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu
Subject: Laser Aperture Size
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 11:10:12 -0600

Applying basic optical diffraction theory (Rayleigh's Criteria) to determine
the required aperature (diameter) of the laser transmitter, using 0.5um
yellow light and have it just fill the sail 11 light years away at TC, the
aperature would have to be 400 km. Was somebody worrying about staying in
the beam? Better worry some more, it isn't going to be as wide as they were
thinking!

As far as your mirror problem, why bother? Why not just pass TC by, use
Lorentz Force Turning to swing around on a return course and then use the
original beam to decelerate into the TC system from behind?

Of course, this makes the mission longer....

The Fresnel lens has already been discounted on the basis that it introduces
chromatic aberrations into the beam, rendering it largely useless. A
reflecting optical system would work better.

If you must do it with mirrors, there is no need to get complicated, just
build a staged design (kind of like onion rings) where the main ship detachs
large chunks of sail to function as a deceleration stage, then a slightly
smaller chunk as an acceleration stage to leave TC, and decelerates back
into Sol on the unreflected beam. Each stage would function as a mirror to
propel the remaining ship and sail sections in the appropriate direction.
This method would probably still require a Fresnel lens though.

As much as I like the sail concept, I still think the RAIR concept is more
promising. Especially if you can boost fuel into its path to increase its
cruise velocity. I like the idea of using sails for the fuel, though.
Lee
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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	["503" "Sat" "9" "March" "1996" "17:14:44" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "13" "Re: Avalanche!   " "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Avalanche!   
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 17:14:44 +0100

>5 new messages arrived in the time it takes me to read/respond to 3.  Help!
>at least I got a new phone line, so that my wife (Genny, the most patient 
>woman on the face of this or any other planet.) can use the house line.
>
>Kevin (figuring that one more letter won't hurt anyone)

I hope you aren't saying that you have to be online during the writing of
your letters?

Tim

P.S. Although I sent many letters, they were all rather small. So don't be
fooled by the amount but also look at the size.

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	["916" "Sat" "9" "March" "1996" "17:14:56" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "23" "Re: Orbit B" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Orbit B
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 17:14:56 +0100

To Kevin,

>Note, the decell beam (==) will be red-shifted, but that's okay, beacuse 
>when Asimov plows into it, it will blue-shift it  :)
>
>
>                          ~A  <======================                R
>
>Stage five: Asimov uses the decell beam to slow down to Target star.

I'm sorry when you were talking about a asteroid, I was thinking you meant a
1 kilometre one. I'm still wondering if you really need an asteroid, my
guess is that the mirror itself will be solid enough.

You have managed to overcome the problem of a forward and backward moving
beam in the same lane. But by solving that problem you added another (how
could it have been different) namely that the distance between mirror and
our ship has been lengthened by I think at least 4 ly.

So, on the one hand an advantage and on the other a disadvantage. But I've
the feeling that on the whole there is an increase of advantage.

Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: RETRO MIRROR SCHEMES
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 17:15:00 +0100

To Lee,

>>Do you know a more exact year or title? Anything that would help me to track
>>down the article?
>>
>I'm working on it...

OK, I almost can't wait...

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Sail Questions
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 17:15:17 +0100

To Less,

>>The problem is how do you attach a 1000 ton starship to it.
>
>Umm, monofilament diamond?

I'm not sure what this is, is this a suggestion or a question?

>>Since I'm thinking of a quite solid sail build of aluminium or something
>>like that, I'm not worried much about corrosion, even small debris will just
>>make some holes in it without doing much more damage.
>
>You just blew your ship mass to power ratios out of the water. Solar sails
>are described by their Lightness Number, the sail you seem to be describing
>will not leave anything for payload.

That only depends on the density of the radiation. We weren't going to use
Solar sails but just sails. While solar density non variable (at a fixed
distance) we can change the momentum density of our own beam. In theory we
could do with a small sail (upto the limit where the radiation pressure
would ionize it away).

>>>What is the drag coefficent of such a sail in the ICM? 
>>
>>Is ICM the same as ISM? 
>
>The Interstellar Medium (ISM) consists of HI and HII regions which are
>comparitively dense and Intercloud Medium (ICM) which are not. The Solar
>System is curently on the edge of an ICM where there is comparitively little
>matter.

Ah, but if we know that we are at the edge of an ICM, can we than determine
what the shape of this ICM is? In knowing this does Tau Ceti or Alpha
Centauri lie in such a cloud too?

>>>At
>>>what speed does the acceleration balance drag? Is this before or after the
>>>sail is shredded?
>>
>
>A 10 ly journey at 0.2 c would result in the loss of 1/500 of the area of
>the sail by impact with dust grain sized particles. I don't know of anyone
>who has calculated beyond that speed for sails. IF there are larger
>particles present in the ISM, the word catastrophic comes into mind...

Assuming the we have a sail made of a mesh with 2 mm-2 cm holes, I don't
think that would matter much.
You are talking about loss of area, what kind of an area are you talking
about? Does this also count for aluminium?

>>Only at very high c, probably far beyond 0.99c. I don't see any reason why
>>the sail would brake if the pressure is equally divided.
>
>Assuming that whatever erosion there is occurs uniformly

Yes, and assuming the sail is equally strong (no material flaws).

Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 17:15:12 +0100

To Steve,

>Core memory is still used in a few applications, although sometimes just
>for historical reasons.  It does have the advantage of being
>radiation-hard (find me a cosmic ray big enough to wipe out a 1 mm
>ferrite core) and non-volatile.

I never understood exactly how it works, I know there are horizontal and
vertical lines, with some small ring around every "knot". Do you know how it
works and can you explain it in a paragraph?
(What is the funcion of these ferrite rings?)

> > >The guys who programed them HATED them!
> > 
> > yeah, 256 kb is not too much.
> > 
> > But are todays Shuttles still having the same amount of memory?
>
>Do you know what it takes to certify a computer system for use as a
>control device in a man-rated aircraft, especially the software?
>Generally you only do it once.  That's why the shuttle computers and
>software are still unchanged from the time they were designed.
>Supposedly they're working on a new computer design, but you won't see
>it for a while.

Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 17:15:23 +0100

>>> Kelly, how did you calculate these numbers?
>
>Used the rocket equation in the start of the Dani Eder document (don't have
>it with me now), and the software in the LIT computer center.
>

Although, I don't know what this program or the equation looks like, I've
serious doubts if they are right. This is because the numbers don't line up
with my own and with Steve's calculations. (2 to 1)

Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Another new? idea
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 17:15:28 +0100

>No I was woundering about the amount of wattage to the amount of momentum, or
>wattage to specific impulse in a reaction mass.  I'm woundering about using
>the beam to run a microwave powered rocket, rather than a sail.

Oh, why didn't you say that at once ;) I hope this is what you mean:

Momentum/Energy (p/E) ratio:

for photons:    1/c

for mass   :    1/c {v/(c-Sqrt[c^2-v^2])} if you know the velocity
             or 1/c Sqrt[U(U+2 m c^2)] if you know mass and kinetic energy

where {v/(c-Sqrt[c^2-v^2])} is always bigger than 1

So if you have some energy and want to get the most momentum of it you could
best use mass.

Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Orbit B
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 17:15:41 +0100

Kelly,

>> But I planned the retro-mirror would be at about the same size as the
>> earth-array. (Sounds awful doesn't it?)
>
>Doesn't sound possible.  You'ld have to get some divergence.  You'ld need to
>send a beam much larger than the sail/reflector in order to make sure their
>was an acceptable sized hot zone for the ship to manuver slightly in.

So then indeed the retro-mirror should be 10 times bigger than the
Earth-array (and 100 times bigger than the sail). But is that impossible (A
100 kilometre sail radius).

>> No, the back- and forward beam aren't at the same place, 
>> they are at besides each other.
>
>Then the relfector (and ship) would be under lateral thrust that would shove
>it out of the beam, and the reflector work have to aim to hit the ship.
> Since it couldn't know or see the ship to aim, it would presumably miss.

But don't you remember my "2-beams side-to-side" solution (which I reasently
posted again especially for Brian).

>> With the capture and retransmit array (that has to be just 
>> about as large as the beam)
>
>How would that help?  The beam from earth would be fluttery by the time it
>got to the reflector or retransmitter array.  So that would chew up the
>microwave converters of catcher mesh (depending).

Hmm yes, unless you made the collectors and the masers far enough apart
(which is necessary anyway, to overcome that the back- and forward beam
aren't in the same path).

>> >How the hell do you focus a lose flapping mesh sheet, the size of jupiter,
>> >while its taking 100s-1000's-? of G in acceleration?
>
>> I still don't agree with the size of the sail and the beam. The sail should
>> at maximum be 1 kilometre radius and the beam max 100 km radius.
>> And if we can make this thing work, I assume the accuracy could be made
>better too.
>
e18 in a 1Km beam?  Kept that tight over interstellar distences?  Neat trick.

I don't see why you could keep a 100 km beam accurate enough but not a 1 km
beam. Can't we increase this accuracy 100 times? We never did a study of the
accuracy of the beam, we always assumed some fictional number. I tried
figuring it out but so far no luck.
If 1 km is not enough to make course corrections, I wonder if 100 km is?

>> The mirror would not accelerate any faster than the Asimov, since we are
>> smart enough to add some extra weight (if it isn't heavy from itself).
>
>Thats a lot of waste mass, and it wouldn't effect it flaping.

The idea was to use the mass in a contructive way, thus as support.

Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: RE: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 17:15:37 +0100

>> >Kelly
>> >Right!  Or one of the other stars at the 4 to maybe 7 light year range.
> It
>> >ain't Tau, but I try to do my part as the resident conservative designer.
> ;)
>
>> Tim:
>> I guess, I'm the progressive one? ;)
>
>Kelly
>Exotic, optimistic (CRAZY!).  ;)

Thank you, that's what I wanted to hear

Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 17:15:50 +0100

>> I did some extra calculations, it seems that electrons have a centrifugal
>> accleration of about 1E10 m/s/s when rotating about an atom-core. If we are
>> going to accelerate things so fast, atoms are going to be ionized. This
>> means no ordinairy matter could be used.
>
>Well, I suppose we only really wanted the nucleous anyway...

Not if you want to use canisters.

>> So in short, you use a accelerator build up from several loose cannons in a
>> path spaced through our Solar system.
>
>Cannons?  I don't follow.

I assumed the tugs where a laser cannons.

>> Changing the distances between accelerations may decrease the mean
>> acceleration but not the instant acceleration. I think it is the latter
>> that we need to be concerned about.
>
>No, the canisters would be undergoing contiuous boost for the entire launch
>track.  (Well, their might be a secound or two gap when one laser tug hand
>off to the next.)

Oh, I thought that every tug/cannon ignited a new explosion. After such an
explosion, it would take a few seconds to cool (or to dillute the plasma)
before a new explosion could take place.

Tim

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From: "L. Parker" 
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu
Subject: X-34 Program Cancellation
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 11:32:18 -0600

  X-34 Is Dead -- Long Live X-34!  Analysis & Recommendations


The Orbital Sciences Corporation/Rockwell/NASA X-34 air-launched partially
reusable lightsat launcher project is dead.  The short version: The project
had ongoing weight-growth, cost-growth, and schedule problems, OSC wanted
to radically downsize the vehicle, Rockwell quit, and NASA pulled the plug.
RIP X-34, and good riddance.  (We expected this - we were pointing out
problems with the overall project and refusing to suppport it over a year
ago.  See SAU's #47 through #50, November '94 through April '95.)

So it will no doubt come as a surprise that SAS considers the X-34 project
to date a rousing success, and has hopes for it doing a lot of good for US
commercial reusable launch capability in the relatively near future.

Allow us to explain this apparent contradiction.

X-34 as conceived by OSC/Rockwell/NASA had two major problems that combined
to kill it.  

One was obvious from the start: Too many agendas.  Just to list the overt
conflicts (never mind the covert agendas that various sponsors appeared to
be pursuing), X-34 was going to experiment with new and untried NASA-
contractor cooperative management techniques, at the same time it was going
to "prove" NASA could routinely work effectively with industry in fast low-
cost X-projects.  X-34 was also going to produce a cheap near-term
hypersonic flight testbed for reusable rocket components, and at the same
time be a low-cost commercial lightsat launcher.  

Developing new cooperative management techniques was a good thing to do.
In fact, that's one of the reasons we're calling X-34 a success so far; not
only did the project uncover and initiate reform of a number of internal
problems at NASA, but the new setup allowed X-34 to fail for only $8
million, rather than the several hundreds of millions such a project would
have eaten under traditional arrangements.  More on that in a bit.  

Operational and "X" objectives, now, just don't mix well, period.  X-
vehicles should not have set payload requirements, as that tends to get in
the way of building something to fly as cheap, high, fast, and soon as
possible, something that'll return the data needed to minimize development
risk for operational payload-carrying followons.  The payload requirement
had much to do with X-34's troubles.  More on this later too.

The other problem was one a lot of us thought likely (but of course not
certain) given OSC and Rockwell's combined track record for cost growth,
weight growth, and schedule slippage on complex aerospace vehicle projects:
Bad management.

Actually, "bad management" is an exaggeration, quite unfair to the people
involved - the problem is more accurately described as the lack of
outstandingly good management of a small highly-skilled highly-integrated
development team.  We'll more accurately call what OSC and Rockwell brought
to bear ordinary government-contract aerospace management - not bad, but
not good enough to meet all the agendas, on time, on weight, and on cost.  

Here's why we said that failing for only $8 million from NASA is a success
for X-34: Historically, such projects when totally government-financed will
pour good money after bad for a long time, despite cost growth, weight
growth, and schedule problems.  The fact that NASA's share was fixed at $70m
and any overruns came straight out of OSC and Rockwell's pockets
concentrated their minds wonderfully when the project started going bad.  

It became obvious to Rockwell and OSC that they were going to lose money,
they dropped out, NASA learned a lot in the process, and still has $62
million of the original $70 million to try and do something useful with. 
That sounds like a success to us.  

 - OK, What To Do With $62 Million?
 
Dan Goldin asked us a year ago what NASA could do to encourage small
aerospace startups without crushing them by sheer weight of government
attention.  We didn't have a good answer for him at the time.

Now, we just might.  Bear with us for a bit while we lay out the logic.
Many of the pieces of the puzzle are already present in the story of X-34
Mark I's demise...  

History tells us that rapid cheap development of effective advanced
aircraft/aerospace vehicles tends to be done by small, highly-integrated
skillfully-led development teams.  

Absent wartime urgency, the post-WW II development approach of mass-assault
divide-and-conquer engineering tends to produce expensive protracted
bureaucratic bogdowns, the vehicles resulting (if any) ending up as complex,
fragile, difficult-to-operate kluges.  

We are conspicuously short of effective small development teams lately.  
This is because we haven't been doing much to foster such teams for a long
time now - neither encouraging the general approach, nor building many
specific projects of the sort such teams can form around and learn on.  

We're obviously still capable of doing this sort of thing; two recent
examples are the DC-X and Clementine developments.  Note that both teams
despite their successes have been in danger of being broken up and scattered
to the four winds - current management theory about workers all being
standard interchangeable parts is very destructive in this regard, as is the
overall lack of small/medium development projects.  
 
The US very much needs such development teams in the high-performance
aerospace vehicle field, in order to affordably exploit recent technology
advances and bring access costs down radically enough to make space an
explosively expanding US commercial sector.  The budget climate for the
forseeable future rules out any Cold War-style government-funded mass
assault on the access cost problem.  Probably just as well...  
 
It is very difficult for such a small development team to both advance the
state of the art, and at the same time produce an operational (reliable
payload-carrier) vehicle.  Imposing a rigid payload requirement while there
is still limited hands-on experience with the new technology tends to cause
the project to bloat, cost and weight-wise.  Large unknowns require large
engineering margins, if the result must be reliably operational.  
 
Such new ground is best broken by building an X-vehicle, one designed to
explore the flight regime quickly and cheaply, with relatively high risk of
initial performance shortfalls and operational difficulties an acceptable
tradeoff for getting results fast on a tight budget.

Once a small development team has explored the new flight regime with an 
X-vehicle, they're ready to move on and produce an efficient operational
followon, quickly, cheaply, and with relatively low development risk.  

But such an X-vehicle flies no operational missions, carries no payloads,
makes no money for anyone.  Profits come only after the second 2-3 year
design-build-fly iteration.  There's no payoff for at least 5-6 high-risk
years from cold start, so commercial funding isn't available for projects
that require advancing the state of the art.  And X-34 Mark I has again
demonstrated the unwisdom of trying to compress the process into one design
iteration.

It is more than a little ironic that successful development of affordable
single-stage reusable space vehicles requires going back to the traditional
multi-stage advanced development project...

 - So What Should NASA Be Doing?
 
SAS believes it is a legitimate role for NASA to sponsor relatively small 
X-projects, with the specific purpose of fostering such small development
teams, allowing them to prove their management/technical competence by going
through the initial design iteration of flying an advanced X-vehicle, as a
precursor to a potential low-cost reusable operational spacecraft.  

SAS believes that a design team that has successfully done this will then
very likely be able to obtain commercial and/or customer funding for an
operational followon, given that they will have established relatively high
confidence that they will be able to complete the second (money-making)
design-build-fly iteration on time and on budget.  

 - How can NASA best do this, given $62 million in the kitty?  
 
We don't have a sure-fire formula, but our advisors have come up with some
sensible suggestions...  
 
Go for one project for now.  $62 million is likely barely enough for an
extremely lean-and-mean outfit to get one X-vehicle flying.  (One useful
possibility would be to accept a vehicle bid in tandem with a bid to build
an upgraded version of a proven engine, using some of the small-engine money
we hear will be materializing at NASA.  This allows a more ambitious vehicle
for the available money, while providing a fallback position of initial
flight with the old proven engine version if the upgrade is delayed.)

Do this as a small-business setaside.  Nothing against the existing outfits,
but there's already a project to foster one or more skilled reusable rocket
design teams in the existing large aerospace corporations; it's called X-33. 
This one's for the startups.  (The big guys, frankly, should be using more
of their own money to build and maintain strong design teams.)

Pick the winning bidder primarily on the strength of the team they've lined
up, on the balance between management, design, fabrication, and operations
skills, next on the strength of their plans to market their technology if
their X-vehicle succeeds, with their financial backing a distant third. 
We've seen there'll be little commercial money for such ventures at startup.

Insist on the winning team being committed to success.  They may not have
much for assets and financing, but what they have should be at risk.  Make
the CEO mortgage his house; set up the payment schedule so that if the team
is reasonably close to on-time and on-budget, he can pay it off.  Make team
members contract for the length of the project; no bailing out for a better
offer or from disgruntlement halfway through.  
 
Make the contract such that if the winning team does a decent job, they end
up with enough for a month's screaming hedonistic vacation (they'll need it)
followed by a year or two working up their operational followon design and
looking for funding and customers.  If they screw up, at most cover the
remaining debt after they sell off their assets.  
 
Monitor their technical progress and expenses closely, but supportively. 
This is critical!  We've heard from numerous entrepreneurs about bad
experiences working for the government.  Some of this of course is simple
aversion to anyone at all looking over their shoulders, to doing any
paperwork at all.  But much of it stems from being burned by letter-of-the-
law beancounters/procurement-paperwork enforcers who neither knew nor cared
what the project was trying to accomplish.  The technical and financial
oversight people should be knowledgable about the project and supportive of
its goals.  They should be there to spot problems early and work with the
development team to solve them, not to shout "gotcha!" 
 
Allow the project to fail.  There should be some slack in the schedule and
finance, as long as the reasons for using the slack are clearly understood
and under control, but if things get out of hand, don't pour good money
after bad.  Shut it down and try again elsewhere.  

Success or failure, follow this up with more small projects as funding can
be found.  Such projects are inherently risky; the way to ensure the big
payoff is to make multiple small bets.  


This advice is aimed at partially/fully reusable smallsat launcher
development in this particular instance, but we think it's more widely
applicable.  And that's all we have to say for now.  Until #62...
__________________________________________________________________________ 

 Space Access Society      "Reach low orbit and you're halfway to anywhere 
 4855 E Warner Rd #24-150               in the Solar System." 
 Phoenix AZ 85044                               - Robert A. Heinlein 
 602 431-9283 voice/fax 
 www.space-access.org                     "You can't get there from here." 
 space.access@space-access.org                          - Anonymous 

 - Permission granted to redistribute the full and unaltered text of this -
 - piece, including the copyright and this notice.  All other rights      -
 - reserved.  In other words, crossposting, emailing, or printing this    -
 - whole and passing it on to interested parties is strongly encouraged.  -


                      (from www.rlv.msfc.nasa.gov)
     _________________________________________________________________
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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From: "L. Parker" 
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 12:55:44 -0600

At 05:15 PM 3/9/96 +0100, you wrote:

>Although, I don't know what this program or the equation looks like, I've
>serious doubts if they are right. This is because the numbers don't line up
>with my own and with Steve's calculations. (2 to 1)
>
I checked his equation source and it is the right equation for non
relativistic flight, I have the version for relativistic flight if you want
it. Actually his numbers don't look to far off. Because of the extremely
high specific impulses he listed, the mass ration is very low.

However, I would like to know where his choices of Specific Impulse I(sp)
came from they look a little outrageous.

Lee
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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From: "L. Parker" 
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu
Subject: International Space Development Conference
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 14:21:40 -0600

                          ISDC 96
                  National Space Society's
       15th International Space Development Conference
          
            Grand Hyatt New York, New York City
           May 23-27, 1996 (Memorial Day Weekend)

WHAT IS THE ISDC?

The 15th annual convention of the The National Space
Society (NSS)  http://www.global.org/bfreed/nss/nss-home.html
features a multi-track program of astronauts, visionaries,
entrepreneurs, activists and educators.

ISDC 96 http://pages.nyu.edu/~rjn1039/isdc96/isdc96.htm 
will take place in a discounted, luxury hotel in
the heart of New York City, within walking distance of such
world-famous sights as the Empire State Building and United
Nations, as well as a huge range of dining and shopping.

MAIN ISDC PROGRAM TRACKS

Large Scale Programs Track
- Gov't / Big Business in Space, May 23-27

Rugged Individualism Track
- Entrepreneurship, Volunteerism, May 23-27

Technology Frontiers Track
- Technology and More, May 23-27

Education Track
- Space for Educators and Students, May 25-27


CO-LOCATED EVENTS:

A number of separate space-related events are being held in
conjunction with ISDC 96 -- most included with your ISDC 
registration fee.  See below for details.

"New Roads to the Stars" Interstellar Flight Symposium
- Symposium on starflight technology, May 23-24

1996 New York Space Expo
- Astronaut / Scientist Speaker Program
- Space Collectibles / Stamp / Merchandise Show
- US Postal Service Station / ISDC 96 Postal Cover
- "Art of the Distant Earth" Space Art Exhibit
- 1-Day Professional Space Courses (extra fee)
- Special NYC, Buehler Challenger Center tours (extra fee)

Students for the Exploration & Development of Space (SEDS)
Annual Conference, May 24

Scheduled Speakers (Partial List as of March 1):
- Buzz Aldrin (Apollo 11 Astronaut)
- Charles Walker (Three-Time Shuttle Astronaut)
- Norm Thagard (Shuttle/Mir Astronaut)
- Keith Baker (Amateur Satellite Corp.)
- Ed Belbruno (The Geometry Center, U of Minn)
- Greg Bennett (The Artemis Project)
- Terry Bisson (Award-Winning SF Author)
- Brice Cassenti (United Technologies)
- Robert Cenker (Former Payload Specialist)
- Peter Diamandis (The "X" Prize Foundation)
- Martyn Fogg (British Interplanetary Society)
- Lou Friedman (The Planetary Society)
- Jerry Grey (American Inst of Aero & Astro)
- Martin Hoffert (New York University)
- Marshall Kaplan (Launchspace, Inc.)
- Alan Ladwig (NASA Headquarters)
- Geoffrey A. Landis (Ohio Aerospace Institute)
- Arthur Larson (Interstellar Flight Author)
- Robert A. Lewis (Penn State University)
- Claudio Maccone (Alenia Spazio)
- Eugene Mallove (Interstellar Flight Author)
- Gregory Matloff (NY Univ., City Univ. of NY)
- Marc Millis (NASA Lewis)
- Charles Pellegrino (Author, LEM Historian)
- Seth Potter (New York University)
- James Powell (Brookhaven National Laboratory)
- Salvatore Santoli (British Interplanetary Society)
- Marshall Savage (First Millennial Foundation)
- Stanley Schmidt (Analog Magazine)
- Paul Shuch (The SETI League)
- Michael Simon (International Space Entreprises)
- Robert Staehle (Jet Propulsion Laboratory)
- Francesco Tubiello (Biosphere 2 / GISS)
- Jeffrey van Cleve (Cornell University)
- Robert Zubrin (Mars Direct)

SPONSORS:
  National Space Society      
http://www.global.org/bfreed/nss/nss-home.html
  Space Frontier Society of New York City  
http://www.mne.com/sfs/
  Space Expos of America, Inc.

PRINCIPAL CO-SPONSORS:
  Philadelphia Area Space Alliance
  New York University
  Space Studies Institute
  Students for the Exploration and Development of Space
  US Space Foundation
  
***********************************************************

ISDC 96 PROGRAM HIGHILIGHTS
Please note that the following program is subject to change.  
Visit the ISDC 96 Web site for updates:
http://pages.nyu.edu/~rjn1039/isdc96/isdc96.htm

Rugged Individualism Track
(Space projects by individuals; entrepreneurship.)
- Space Business Case Studies (Thur 5/23)
- Space Tourism (Sat 5/25)
- Amateur Satellite & Rocket Projects (Sat-Sun 5/25-26)
- Private Space Missions (Fri 5/24)

Large-Scale Programs Track
(Government and Big Business in space)
- Space Shuttle / Space Station (Thur-Fri 5/23-24)
- New Launch Vehicles (Sat 5/25)
- Planetary Exploration (Sat-Mon 5/25-27)
- Solar Power Satellites (Sun 5/26)

Technology Frontiers Track
(Space technology and more.)
- Space Biomedical Session (Fri 5/24)
- In-Situ Materials (Fri 5/24)
- Biospheres and Space Habitation (Sat 5/25)
- Asteroids: Peril or Promise? (Sun 5/26)
  (Special session by the Philadelphia Area Space Alliance)

Education Track
(Educator / student programming.)
- Space on the Internet Session (Sun 5/26)
- Space Education Workshops (Sat-Mon 5/25-27)

Additional ISDC Activities
- Asteroids: Promise or Peril? Session
  Philadelphia Area Space Alliance (Sun 5/26)
- The Foundry (space project workshop) (Sat-Sun 5/25-26)
- Many Roads to Space ("open mike" room) (Sat-Sun 5/25-26)
- NSS Board Meeting (Sun 5/26)
- NSS Awards Banquet (Sun Eve 5/26)

SPECIAL EVENTS
Co-located special programming includes:

1996 New York Space Expo
- Talks by astronauts and space visionaries
- Space exhibits hall, collectibles show
- Art of the Distant Earth exhibit

Students for Exploration and Development of Space (SEDS)
Annual Conference
- SEDS college/university space project updates
- Friday, May 24 at Grand Hyatt New York

Professional-Level One-Day Short Courses (extra fee)

- Launch Vehicle Technology (Thur 5/23)
  Dr. Marshall Kaplan, Launchspace Inc.
  Overview of / trends in expendable, reusable launchers.

- Introduction to Remote Sensing (Thur 5/23)
  Dr. Scott Madry, International Space University
  Basics of Earth imaging, including applications, software.

- Chaos, Orbital Dynamics & Fuzzy Boundaries (Fri 5/24)
  Dr. Edward Belbruno, The Geometry Center, U of Minn.
  New low-energy planetary missions through chaos theory.

- Spacecraft & Satellite Systems (Fri 5/24)
  Mr. Robert Cenker, PE, Launchspace Inc.
  Introduction to spacecraft system technologies, trends.

TOURS OF NYC AND BEYOND

New York City is a great vacation spot, with the Grand
Hyatt New York right in the middle of it all.  Organized
sightseeing, shopping and dining trips will be available,
as will child day care.  Scheduled extra-fee tours include:

- Wall Street / NYC Technology Tour (Fri 5/24)
- Statue of Liberty / Ellis Island (Sat 5/25)
- "Jackie O" Walk / Metropolitan Museum of Art (Sat 5/25)
- Self-Guided Double-Decker Bus Tours of NYC (All Days)
- Discount Broadway Show (Sat Eve 5/25)
- Buehler Challenger Center (Fri Eve 5/24)
  (Includes tour, "Return to the Moon" simulated mission.)

***********************************************************

PRELIMINARY DETAILED SCHEDULE (As of 15 Feb 96)

ISDC 96 program tracks will run on a hourly, on-the-hour
schedule, from 9 am to noon and 2 pm to 6 pm.  Write for
details on individual speakers and talks.  Please note
again that the program is subject to change.  Visit the
ISDC 96 Web site for updates:

http://pages.nyu.edu/~rjn1039/isdc96/isdc96.htm


THURSDAY, MAY 23

Interstellar Flight Symposium (Day 1)

Rugged Individualism Track:
- Media Training Workshop (morning)
- Space Company Profiles (afternoon)

Large-Scale Programs Track:
- Space Business Issues (morning)
- Space Shuttle (afternoon)

Technology Frontiers Track:
- Space History (afternoon)

Space Expo:
- Exhibits Hall / Collectibles Show (afternoon)
- Art Show (all day)
- Intro to Remote Sensing Course (all day)
- Launch Vehicle Technology Course (all day)
- USPS Postal Cover Cancellation Station (all day)

Special Events:
- AIAA dinner with Dr. Jerry Grey (evening) (extra fee)
- Art Show Reception (evening)

FRIDAY, MAY 24

Interstellar Flight Symposium (Day 2)

Rugged Individualism Track:
- Space Entrepreneurship (morning)
- Private Space Missions (afternoon)

Large-Scale Programs Track:
- Space Station (morning-afternoon)
- Earth Observations / Global Climate (afternoon)

Technology Frontiers Track:
- Space Biomedical Session (morning)
- In-Situ Materials (afternoon)

Space Expo:
- Exhibits Hall / Collectibles Show (all day)
- Art Show (all day)
- Chaos, Orbital Dynamics & Fuzzy Boundaries Course (all day)
- Spacecraft & Satellite Systems Course (all day)
- USPS Postal Cover Cancellation Station (all day)
- New York Space Expo Dance (evening)

Special Events:
- SEDS Conference (all day)
- Statue of Liberty / Ellis Island Tour (morning)
- Wall Street / NYC Technology Tour (afternoon)
- Buehler Challenger Center Tour / Simulated Mission (eve)


SATURDAY, MAY 25

Rugged Individualism Track:
- Space Entrepreneurship (morning)
- Amateur Programs, Space Tourism (afternoon)

Large-Scale Programs Track:
- Role of Government in Space (morning)
- Reusable Launch Vehicles, Planetary Exploration (afternoon)

Technology Frontiers Track:
- Novel Propulsion Concepts (morning)
- Biospheres and Space Habitation (afternoon)

Education Track: 
- Space Education Workshops

Space Expo: 
- Speaker Session (all day)
- Exhibits Hall / Collectibles Show (all day)
- Author Readings / Signings (all day)

Special Events:
- The Foundry (all day)
- Many Roads to Space (all day)
- "Jackie O" / Metropolitan Museum of Art Tour (afternoon)


SUNDAY, MAY 26

Rugged Individualism Track:
- Amateur Rocketry (morning)
- Amateur Radio in Space (afternoon)

Large-Scale Programs Track:
- Solar Power Satellites (morning)
- NASA Exploration Programs (afternoon)

Technology Frontiers Track:
- Robotics (morning)
- Asteroids: Promise or Peril? (afternoon)

Education Track:
- Space Education Workshops (all day)
- Space on the Internet (afternoon)

Space Expo:
- Speaker Session (all day)
- Exhibits Hall / Collectibles Show (all day)
- Art Show (all day)
- Author Readings / Signings (all day)

Special Events:
- The Foundry (all day)
- Many Roads to Space (all day)
- NSS Board of Directors Meeting (all day)
- NSS Awards Banquet (evening)


MONDAY, MAY 27

Rugged Individualism Track:
- Foundry Summary, SF Writers Panel (morning)

Large-Scale Programs Track:
- Human Space Initiatives (morning)

Education Track:
- Space Education Workshops (morning)

Space Expo:
- Exhibits Hall / Collectibles Show (morning)
- Art Show (all day)
- Author Readings / Signings (morning)

Special Events:
- NSS Town Meeting (afternoon)

***********************************************************

REGISTRATION INFORMATION

Please use the form at the end of this text file or a
facsimile.

$60 regular / $25 student (through 15 March 96)
$75 regular / $30 student (through 1 May 96)
$90 regular / $35 student (through Conference)

DISCOUNT HOTEL RESERVATIONS

Grand Hyatt New York, 42 St & Park Ave, NYC
(800) 233-1234 or (212) 883-1234
Discount Code: ISDC 96 / Space Expos
$ 99 / night plus tax, single/double
$114 / night plus tax, triple
$129 / night plus tax, quad
Discounts available for suites.
Discounts good for May 20 - 30 inclusive.
NOTE:  HOTEL RESERVATIONS MUST BE MADE BEFORE 15 MAY 96,
1 WEEK BEFORE ISDC, FOR THE DISCOUNT RATE!


DISCOUNT AIR AND TRAIN FARES

AMERICAN AIRLINES
(800) 433-1790  Star File S4156MA
5% - 10% fare discount
Discount good for travel to NYC May 20-30 inclusive.

AMTRAK
(800) USA-RAIL  Code X-81A-912
10% fare discount
Discount good for travel to NYC May 20-30 inclusive.

ISDC 98 "SUBORBITAL SHUTTLE"
The ISDC 98 (Milwaukee) Committee is running a "conference
on the way to the conference" aboard an Amtrak Lake Shore 
Limited train car out of Chicago.  For $10 plus discounted 
train fare, you can ride to New York with a group of other 
space types. For more information, contact Peter Kokh, Lunar 
Reclamation Society, PO Box 2102, Milwaukee, WI, 53201,
(414) 342-0605 (eve), kokhmmm@aol.com, or their Web site:
http://www.skypoint.com/~rab/space/train.html


ISDC 96 / SPACE EXPO REGISTRATION CONTACT:

Greg Zsidisin, Chair
Space Expos, PO Box 71, Maplewood, NJ, 07040, USA
(212) SAM-8000 (voicemail)
nssnyc@aol.com

mailto:nssnyc@aol.com

Make checks or money orders payable to:
Space Expos of America, Inc.

MasterCard, VISA & American Express accepted.
(Sorry, not Discover).

Visit the ISDC 96 World Wide Web Site for updates and
additional information, including site views and area
map:

http://pages.nyu.edu/~rjn1039/isdc96/isdc96.htm


"NEW ROADS TO THE STARS" SYMPOSIUM CONTACT:

Dr. Gregory Matloff, Chair
417 Greene Avenue, Brooklyn, NY, 11216
(718) 638-7586    
matloff@axp2.nyu.edu

********************************************************

              ISDC 96 REGISTRATION FORM
Return to:
Space Expos, PO Box 71, Maplewood, NJ, 07040, USA

Make checks payable to SPACE EXPOS OF AMERICA, INC.

Name____________________________________________________

Address_________________________________________________

________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________

Eve Phone_______________________________________________

Day Phone_______________________________________________

Fax_____________________________________________________

E-Mail__________________________________________________

Registration Type (circle one):   Regular       Student

$_____ By Mar 15 ($60 Regular / $25 Student)

$_____ By May 1  ($75 Regular / $30 Student)

$_____ At Door   ($90 Regular / $35 Student)

$_____ Intro to Remote Sensing Course ($149)

$_____ Launch Vehicle Technology Course ($149)

$_____ Chaos & Orbital Dynamics Course ($149)

$_____ Spacecraft & Satellite Systems ($149)

$_____ Special, Launch Vehicle AND Spacecraft Sys. ($249)

$_____ Other:_______________________________

$_____ TOTAL ENCLOSED / AUTHORIZED

CREDIT CARD INFORMATION

Card (circle one):        M/C       Visa       AmEx
(Sorry, not Discover)

Card Number______________________________________________

Expiration Date__________________________________________

(Signed)_________________________________________________

(Date)___________________________________________________


=========================================================

       George R Lewycky       "I'd rather be on Titan !!"
                 [ look at my home page to find out why ] 

     try me:    http://soho.ios.com/~lewycky/
                    lewycky@soho.ios.com  
=========================================================
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From popserver Sat Mar  9 22:16:44 GMT 1996
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	["1231" "Sat" "9" "March" "1996" "16:15:00" "PST" "Brian Mansur" "bmansur@oc.edu" nil "37" "Re: RETRO MIRROR SCHEMES" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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Received: from mainpobox.oc.edu by einstein.oc.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/16Oct95-0320PM)
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Encoding: 37 TEXT
X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0
From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , kgstar ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
To: zkulpa 
Subject: Re: RETRO MIRROR SCHEMES
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 96 16:15:00 PST



 ----------
From: T.L.G.vanderLinden
To: KellySt; kgstar; stevev; jim; zkulpa; hous0042; rddesign; David; 
lparker; bmansur
Subject: Re: RETRO MIRROR SCHEMES
Date: Friday, March 08, 1996 11:59PM

To Brian

>>Tim
>>How would you transfer the solar energy to nice laser beams? I haven't the
>>faintest idea how that could be done directly.
>
>Brian
>Sunlight already IS a laser beam.  Its only very a diffuse one.

>Hmm, what do you call a laser beam? I think most people think of a
>monochromatic parallel beam of light, the Sun doesn't have either of these
>qualities.
>But without discussing the properties of a laser, let me rephrase my 
question:
>How are you going turn Sunlight into a parallel beam of near chromatic 
light.
>(with "near chromatic" I mean a small waveband, since directing all
>wavelengths to the Asimov will certainly mean that it ionizes instantly. 
The
>latter happens because it isn't possible to reflect all wavelenghts, so the
>ones that hit the Asimov wil ionize it.)

>P.S. Now it seems we have such an aparatus, seen the reply to Lee (same
>subject)

Brian
Message(s) received and acknowledged.  You guy's are right.  Can someone get 
more data on that aparatus?  A paper title and number perhaps?

From popserver Sat Mar  9 22:46:57 GMT 1996
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	["603" "Sat" "9" "March" "1996" "23:39:53" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "16" "Another piece of the puzzle?" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Another piece of the puzzle?
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 23:39:53 +0100

Could we use polarisation as a way to eliminate the effect of a backward and
forward moving beam in the same path.
What if we can make it so that the forwardmoving beam is horizontally
polarized and the backwardmoving beam is vertically polarized?
All the ships sail? has to do is to discriminate between both kinds of
polarizations and thus reflect only on of the two.

For this we need:

- A polarisation turner (at the retro-mirror)
- A sail that reflects only horizontal or vertical polarized maserlight.

Do such materials exist (and are they not to difficult to use in large
quantities)?

Timothy

From popserver Sat Mar  9 22:47:01 GMT 1996
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	["3078" "Sat" "9" "March" "1996" "16:45:00" "PST" "Brian Mansur" "bmansur@oc.edu" nil "64" "Re: Argosy Mission Overhaul" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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	id <314225AA@mainpobox.oc.edu>; Sat, 09 Mar 96 16:43:22 PST
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Encoding: 64 TEXT
X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0
From: Brian Mansur 
To: Brian Mansur , "L. Parker" 
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
         jim ,
         Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
         rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Argosy Mission Overhaul
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 96 16:45:00 PST



 ----------
From: L. Parker
To: Brian Mansur
Subject: Re: Argosy Mission Overhaul
Date: Friday, March 08, 1996 11:30PM

>From Brian,

>Lee
>Well, it sounds like a good idea to me, except I think I would reduce the
>size of these ships to around 50 to 100 tons max and send more than one to
>each destination, at least six.

>I'm not much of a gambler, can you tell?

>Using a combination of solar sails and lasers and RAIR we can get such a
>ship up to around 0.4c fairly easily. Deceleration would have to be a
>combination of drag screen and RAIR as well.

Brian,
Yesterday, AFTER I sent the mission overhaul letter, I went to the mall and 
found a book called _The Physics of Immortality_.  It described Neumman 
probes (I think I spelled that right) that were launched to the nearer stars 
(including TC!).  These probes explored the system, replicated themselves, 
and launched to other stars.  It was a slow process of exploring the galaxy, 
but is worked simply because it assumed complete robotic automation that 
almost never failed.

In theory we can and will develop such robots but that could be centuries 
into the future.  Assuming that lightsails are the fasted and safest forms 
of propulsion when and if the automation advances occur, humanity will 
expand by first sending his robots to the stars.  They will set up power 
arrays, laser cannons to decelerate incoming colonists, and some 
neighborhoods for those colonists to start new lives in.  They might also 
just terraform a few planets and moons while they are at it.

Something that I have noticed about every design proposal on the board is 
that they almost all have to have high degrees of robotic automation.  That 
or they need A LOT of man power that we probably won't be able to support 
for a simple exploration mission.  Its a real bumber but that seems to be 
the deal.

Think about it.  The maser/laser driven sails need 1E18 (probably  1E20 to 
account for efficiency) to fly.  That means planet size power arrays if the 
source is solar.  The RAIRs need lots of fuel that has to be packaged and 
put into position by some kind of infrastructure.  That _just_ might be 
within the capabilities of human manpower.  Anti-matter energy has to be 
made from an equal (or greater depending on efficiency) amount of energy. 
 That equates to huge power stations to do the matter/anti-matter 
conversion.  Simply launching rockets with fusion pellets as their fuel 
(like the Daedalus) may be doable for small loads but we would quickly run 
out of rare isotope  fusion fuel.  Unless, of course, A LOT more could be 
made by some trick of physics involving fusion techniques perhaps.  Of 
course, a rare isotope factory would most likely require a huge power array 
to run it.

There does seem to be some hope for an easier future, powerwise.  If this 
cold fusion thing that Tim alerted us do is not a hoax or is less fantastic 
discovery than it sounds like, we could be going places we thought were 
going to be out of our reach for decades and centuries.

There is hope.  Let's keep trying.

From popserver Sat Mar  9 22:57:10 GMT 1996
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	["1992" "Sat" "9" "March" "1996" "16:54:00" "PST" "Brian Mansur" "bmansur@oc.edu" nil "60" "Re: Mirrors (Round 3)" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , kgstar ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
To: zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Mirrors (Round 3)
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 96 16:54:00 PST



 ----------
From: T.L.G.vanderLinden
To: KellySt; kgstar; stevev; jim; zkulpa; hous0042; rddesign; David; 
lparker; bmansur
Subject: Re: Mirrors (Round 3)
Date: Saturday, March 09, 1996 12:00AM

>Date: Friday, March 08, 1996 4:31PM

>Tim
>Please give me a clue about how this aparatus works. You cannot use curved
>mirrors alone, since they are a priory not perfectly curved.
>And if you have figured out how you can turn a diffusive beam of light into
>a parallel beam using mirrors only, I'm very interested since that would be
>worth some money.
>
>Brian.
>You are right.  We would have to run the beam through a lense that would
>bend the beams to parallel vectors.  Found that out just thirty minutes 
ago.
> Not going to be easy to accomplish on a retro mirror if wavelengths tend 
to
>change through doplar shifts

Tim
>Indeed what we need is an apparatus that can collect light from all
>directions and shines it in one direction. The problem is how do we make
>such a thing without energy conversions.

  \
    \
      \_________
       _________    Kind of like a funnel
      /
    /
  /

Brian
I really wish I knew what to do with this.  Would laser optics work here?


Brian
>NOTE TO GROUP:  I have to go now but I wanted to forwarn you about a
>conclusion I had about this whole retro-mirror, light-sail propulsion,
>automotive technology problem.  Its coming tomorrow so get ready for me to
>slam the hammer down.  (hint: I plan on breaking a lot of unneeded
>glass/plastic mirrors, etc. and completely rewriting the mission
>definition).   Got to go to class.  RIGHT NOW!

Tim
>You're one minute late already.... I feel sorry for you, having class at
>4:30 at friday afternoon.
>Are you living on campus?

I did get it out.  On the same day, in fact.  It is called the Argosy 
Mission Overhaul.  What do you think of it.  I admit it is not very 
original, but I think it is realistic.  Also read my response to Parkers 
response to that letter.  I add a little something.  

From popserver Sat Mar  9 23:02:13 GMT 1996
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	["916" "Sat" "9" "March" "1996" "16:57:00" "PST" "Brian Mansur" "bmansur@oc.edu" nil "32" "RE: Another piece of the puzzle?" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0
From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , kgstar ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
To: zkulpa 
Subject: RE: Another piece of the puzzle?
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 96 16:57:00 PST



 ----------
From: T.L.G.vanderLinden
To: KellySt; kgstar; stevev; jim; zkulpa; hous0042; rddesign; David; 
lparker; bmansur
Subject: Another piece of the puzzle?
Date: Saturday, March 09, 1996 11:39PM

>From Brian

>Tim
>Could we use polarisation as a way to eliminate the effect of a backward 
and
>forward moving beam in the same path.
>What if we can make it so that the forwardmoving beam is horizontally
>polarized and the backwardmoving beam is vertically polarized?
>All the ships sail? has to do is to discriminate between both kinds of
>polarizations and thus reflect only on of the two.

>For this we need:

>- A polarisation turner (at the retro-mirror)
>- A sail that reflects only horizontal or vertical polarized maserlight.

>Do such materials exist (and are they not to difficult to use in large
>quantities)?

Brian.
Wouldn't we lose a lot of energy in such a process?  That would be a bumber.

I

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , kgstar ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
To: zkulpa 
Subject: RE: Fresnel lenses again
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 96 17:09:00 PST


>From Brian,

>>Tim
>>Another problem that we haven't thought of when using mirrors or lenses is
>>that they absorb some of the energy of the beam, this changes the density
>of
>>the lens/mirror. The result is that unwanted bumps arise and that the
>>focus-distance changes.
>
>Brian
>Density change?  Why would the lense/mirror, have a change in density.  Or
>are you talking about changing the density that the design calls for?  Why
>would there be bumps?

>Tim
>When some of the energy of the beam is absorbed, that means the lens/mirror
>get a bit warmer (or hotter). When things get warm their density decreases
>and their shape changes. Chances are that the material where the lens is
>constructed from is not equal everywhere and probably neither is the 
density
>of the beam.
>So unequal amounts of expansion will occur making the problem even worse.

>From Brian
To group:  I am now officially abandoning _all_ hope of a retro mirror and 
am using robots to set up decelerating arrays (complete with huge solar 
power collection arrays around TC) to stop incoming ships.  Before I 
completely repeat the Argosy Mission Overhaul paper, I'll stop writing. 
 Read the paper.  It explains my new plan (somewhat).

P.S.  Thanks to all who have replied to my questions and helped me come to 
the conclusion that we just can't make this darn sail thing work (without 
automated robots that is).

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In-Reply-To: <199603091615.AA22836@student.utwente.nl>
References: <199603091615.AA22836@student.utwente.nl>
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Summary A
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 15:16:13 -0800

Timothy van der Linden writes:
 > To Steve,
 > 
 > >Core memory is still used in a few applications, although sometimes just
 > >for historical reasons.  It does have the advantage of being
 > >radiation-hard (find me a cosmic ray big enough to wipe out a 1 mm
 > >ferrite core) and non-volatile.
 > 
 > I never understood exactly how it works, I know there are horizontal and
 > vertical lines, with some small ring around every "knot". Do you know how it
 > works and can you explain it in a paragraph?
 > (What is the funcion of these ferrite rings?)

Here's one core cell as a crude ASCII graphic.

          |   /
       -- |  /
       \ \| /
        \ \/
---------\ \--------- horizontal address
         /\ \
        / |\ \
       /  | -- ferrite core (seen edge-on)
      /   |
 sense    vertical address

All three wires pass through the core, which is a ferrite ring; the core
itself holds a single bit encoded as a magnetic state.

The horizontal and vertical address wires form a grid, with a core at
each intersection.  The sense wire is a single wire that threads through
all the cores in a plane.

To write a core cell, current is passed through the horizontal and
vertical address wires that both pass through the desired core.  The
current in the horizontal address wire or vertical address wire alone is
not enough to magnetize a core, so none of the cores that are on that
same wire are affected, but at the intersection the total current
through both wires creates a field strong enough to change the magnetic
field of the core there.  Since the field is effectively circular around
the intersection, current in one direction magnetizes the core in one
sense, while current in the other direction magnetizes in the opposite
sense; one sense represents a 0 bit, while the other represents a 1 bit.

To read a core cell, it is addressed to write a particular state (either
0 or 1).  The core was either in the same state as the one written, and
reinforces the magnetic field, or was opposite the state written, and
gets "flipped", and these produce different induction effects on the
sense wire, which is read to obtain the core's state before the write.
Since reads are destructive, to preserve the core state it must be
written back immediately after reading.

Although it takes more current to read or write a core than it takes to
update a semiconductor memory cell, no power is required to maintain the
state of core memory.  It wasn't until about the mid-70s that
semiconductor memory became all of faster, denser, less power-intensive,
and cheaper than equivalent amounts of core memory, and core was still
used for some time after that.

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: Kevin C Houston ,
        Timothy van der Linden 
Cc: bmansur , David ,
         jim , KellySt ,
         kgstar , lparker ,
        rddesign , stevev ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Orbit B
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 96 17:15:00 PST



 ----------
From: Kevin C Houston
To: Timothy van der Linden
Cc: KellySt; kgstar; stevev; jim; zkulpa; rddesign; David; lparker; bmansur
Subject: Re: Orbit B
Date: Friday, March 08, 1996 5:36PM



> To Kevin,
> Great, now we only need a way to accelerate that asteroid you are talking
about.
> Tim

Okay, I'm going to try to do some ascii art that i hope will make things
clearer.  Itried once already, but then lost the connection, and the
stupid university computer didn't save my file.   AAARRRGGGHHH!



anyway, here goes:
Sol is on the left, TC is on the right.  R is the retro-reflector, A is
the Asimov

Stage one:  acceleration of Retro-rflector.   (these photons are ~)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~R

the mass of the retro reflector is about 2 E9 Kg (sound familer?)
the beam is 1 E18 watts the reflector gets to .75 C and coasts.

Stage two:

decellerating energy is sent (ahead of the asimov)(these photons are =)

one LY long                      tail end of accel energy
================>                         ~~~~R (.75C)

Stage three:
Asimov is accelerated to near light speed (these photons are ~)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~A                  <================R ( approx C)

Stage four: Sol-based Accel beam cuts out at halfwaypoint.
Just as Retro reflected beam catches up to Asimov

Note, the decell beam (==) will be red-shifted, but that's okay, beacuse
when Asimov plows into it, it will blue-shift it  :)


                          ~A  <======================                R

Stage five: Asimov uses the decell beam to slow down to Target star.


Kevin

Wonderful scheme Kevin.  Too bad I've given up hope on a Retro-mirror. 
 Maybe a miracle will happen though to change my mind.  By the way.  Using 
that relativity equation:

mc^2/(1 - v^2/c^2)^.5 - mc^2

I figured out that for over E19, we could get a 100E6 ton ship up to 1/3c if 
the acceleration was applied over 10 or 20 years.

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
         "L. Parker" ,
         rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
To: zkulpa 
Subject: Explorer Power Gain Problem
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 96 17:27:00 PST


>From Brian

Kelly, I was looking over your explorer paper and the power section, trying 
to understand how you got a power gain of 1E9 W per second.  Your equation 
went something like:

P = F dx/dt = m*a*dx/dt

The mass of the ship was 100E6 kg.  The acceleration was 10m/s^2.  The 
duration of acceleration was 1E7 seconds.  You plugged in the numbers like 
this:

100E6kg * 10m/s^2 * 5m/s = 5E9W

Where did that 5m/s come from.  I thought dx/dt was a distance traveled in 
one second.  My physics textbook tells me power is F * v where v is 
velocity.  Since our average speed is 5E7 m/s (average between our terminal 
speed of 1E8 m/s and 0 m/s) the equation should look like this:

100E6kg * 10m/s^2 * 5E7m/s = 5E16W.

If I'm right, that is a hefty difference in power gain which we couldn't 
hope to meet without loading tremendous amounts of fusion fuel.  Please tell 
me that I'm the one who is wrong.  Also, when I ran the numbers for K.E. 
using the relativity equation and the basic physics equation (these are on 
your explorer paper and I don't have time to write them here) I came up with 
a 100+ fold difference in power.  Can you confirm this?  Do you even have 
time to read this letter? :)

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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: "L. Parker" 
cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, David ,
        rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu
Subject: Re: Laser Aperture Size
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 11:48:07 -0600 (CST)

Lee:
> Applying basic optical diffraction theory (Rayleigh's Criteria) to determine
> the required aperature (diameter) of the laser transmitter, using 0.5um
> yellow light and have it just fill the sail 11 light years away at TC, the
> aperature would have to be 400 km. Was somebody worrying about staying in
> the beam? Better worry some more, it isn't going to be as wide as they were
> thinking!

Kevin:
The aperature can be aas wide as we like, through the use of synthetic 
aperature technology.  This is the same as was used on the magellan 
mission to Venus.  it is especially useful for masers, becuase they can 
be linked electronically, without having to be linked optically (like vis 
lasers)

> 
> As far as your mirror problem, why bother? Why not just pass TC by, use
> Lorentz Force Turning to swing around on a return course and then use the
> original beam to decelerate into the TC system from behind?
> 

Oh Goody, I see someone has been reading his interstellar filght handbook.
(no disrespect intended)  I have proposed this very Idea before you 
arrived to the group. Kelly seems to think that we'd be going to fast, 
but of course, that would just generate more force for the turn.  Anyone 
know what the galactic magnetic field strength is?

> Of course, this makes the mission longer....

If we make the turn at a high % of C, the crew won't notice it much.

> The Fresnel lens has already been discounted on the basis that it introduces
> chromatic aberrations into the beam, rendering it largely useless. A
> reflecting optical system would work better.
> 
> If you must do it with mirrors, there is no need to get complicated, just
> build a staged design (kind of like onion rings) where the main ship detachs
> large chunks of sail to function as a deceleration stage, then a slightly
> smaller chunk as an acceleration stage to leave TC, and decelerates back
> into Sol on the unreflected beam. Each stage would function as a mirror to
> propel the remaining ship and sail sections in the appropriate direction.
> This method would probably still require a Fresnel lens though.


This is the design put forth by Robert Forward, the main problem is that 
you can't get anywhere near light speed, because then the doppler shift 
from the retreating sail will reduce the energy to near zero.

> As much as I like the sail concept, I still think the RAIR concept is more
> promising. Especially if you can boost fuel into its path to increase its
> cruise velocity. I like the idea of using sails for the fuel, though.

I disagree, I think the simplest mission in terms of hab space design is 
going to be a 1g thrust to midpoint, then a 1G thrust to target.  The big 
advantage, is the time dialation for the crew.

Kevin

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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Timothy van der Linden 
cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Avalanche! 
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 11:52:30 -0600 (CST)

Tim:
> I hope you aren't saying that you have to be online during the writing of
> your letters?
> 

Well, I don't have to be, but since I don't have to pay for connect time 
(directly that is. TANSTAAFL) I like to Telnet into my mail program 
(pine) The main advantage is that is i crash during a reply, then pine 
saves my work (usually, I have had one error recently)  also, since i 
have a 9600 modem, I don't like to do any more download/upload than I 
have to.

Kevin

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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Timothy van der Linden 
cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Orbit B
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 12:05:42 -0600 (CST)


Tim:
> >                          ~A  <======================                R
> >
> >Stage five: Asimov uses the decell beam to slow down to Target star.
> 
> I'm sorry when you were talking about a asteroid, I was thinking you meant a
> 1 kilometre one. I'm still wondering if you really need an asteroid, my
> guess is that the mirror itself will be solid enough.

You are right, I should have said a couple of asteroid's worth of mass.  
I think the retro reflector will start out as a thin mesh of wire, and 
some form of mass will then be sprayed on the backside (slag from the 
construction of the mirror/maser/solar cells/asimov) maser tubes would 
then be arrainged along the outside edges ( to give a larger aperature)

If the Retro-Reflector (RR) is much more massive than the asimov, then it 
won't speed up very much during the reflection phase.  Aiming should not 
be too difficult, all the RR will have to do is aim back for Sol ( a 
rather close/bright star)  if the RR has to manuvere, then it can do so 
by either:

1) employing a gyro like I have proposed before (only bigger)

2)varying the output from the different maser tubes arrayed along the 
outside circumfrence.

> You have managed to overcome the problem of a forward and backward moving
> beam in the same lane. But by solving that problem you added another (how
> could it have been different) namely that the distance between mirror and
> our ship has been lengthened by I think at least 4 ly.

yes, it looks that way.  BTW, i don't think we can let the RR crash into 
the target star, if we do, then the decell beam will cut out with 2 
light-years to go (assuming a 4 LY separation)

Kevin

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
cc: David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        stevev@efn.org, bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu
Subject: Re: RETRO MIRROR SCHEMES
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:14:41 -0500

> >>IDEA!  Why not skip converting the sunlight and just gather it directly
into 
> >>lasers using these huge mirror apparatuses that I'm proposing.  The
arrays 
> >>aroundSol would need to be heavy to keep from getting blown away, but
that's 
> >>okay.

Lee
> I mentioned this to Kelly some time ago, but didn't send it to every one
> else. There was an article published in Scientific American about 10 or 15
> years ago where someone had figured out how to make a MECHANICAL (that's
> what you call it when it only uses mirrors)Solar Pumped Laser. Some sort of
> spiral collector/intensifier with flute shaped collimators.

> Anyway, without any moving parts it is capagle of generating a visible
light
> laser from the Sun the only part I don't get is how you can have a
> polychromatic laser in the first place, since by definition a laser is
> monochromatic...

> Anyway, since there is no conversion the only loss would be to thermal
> heating from internal absorption, it should be very efficient. And real
> CHEAP to build.

Ah, thats what you were refuring to!  

The solar pumped laser works by using the sun light to excite a lasing medium
that then lases in a visible light frequency.  Unfortunatly I think most of
he energy is lost as wast heat.  Given the amount of power were talking
about, that could fry a lot of lasers.

Kelly

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu
cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Orbit B
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:13:55 -0500

Kevin:

> > > No, think of a cone twelve light-years tall, with a base circle the
size 
> > > of merc's orbit.  the angular deviations would be nearly 
> > > impossible to measure.  Let's just consider a 
> > > two-dimensional analogy. an isoceles triangle twelve 
> > > lightyears to a side, with a 72 million mile base:====
> > 
> > 
> > Lets consider that if the beam is 72 million miles across, and the sail
is 10
> > thousand miles across; and the ship needs e18 watts of beam to hit the
sail.
> >  The total power over the entire beam would need to be about e25 watts.
 I
> > think we are starting to outpower the sun here Kevin.

> No, the beam is not 72 million miles wide, silly.  the 
> entire cone is 72 million miles wide at the base.  go 
> back to the two dimensional analogy, the beam starts 
> on one leg of the triangle, stays there for 44 days 
> (half of merc's orbital period) then switches to the 
> other leg for 44 days.  in both positions, it's beam 
> width is only slightly bigger than the sail. 
> (to overcome jitter effects).  

But given the targeting cone.  The bem would still be 36 million miles off
center at the mid point.  I.E. it would miss the sail by tens of millions of
miles.  Since you can't know where the ship is.  You couldn't accuratly aim
for it.

Also this discusion started when Brain was describing how he would mount his
beam reflectors on a comet or something in Tau Ceti.  Given it would take 22
years for the reflector to tell earth where it was assembled....


Kelly

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.magec.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Orbit B
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:13:52 -0500

> >At
> >what speed does the acceleration balance drag? Is this before or after the
> >sail is shredded?

> Tim
> Only at very high c, probably far beyond 0.99c. I don't see any reason why
> the sail would brake if the pressure is equally divided.

You are going to be plowing into hudreds of tons of stuff per month.  (Check
my Explorer page for math.)  Given that it will be slaming into you at light
speed this could cause quite a bit of drag.

Kelly

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
cc: David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        stevev@efn.org, bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 18:10:39 -0500

> >Although, I don't know what this program or the equation looks like, I've
> >serious doubts if they are right. This is because the numbers don't line
up
> >with my own and with Steve's calculations. (2 to 1)

> I checked his equation source and it is the right equation 
> for non-relativistic flight, I have the version for 
> relativistic flight if you want it. Actually his numbers 
> don't look to far off. Because of the extremely high specific
> impulses he listed, the mass ration is very low.

> However, I would like to know where his choices of 
> Specific Impulse I(sp) came from they look a little 
> outrageous.

Largely from the Papers by Bussard I sited in my web page (and some other
refs).  Bussards paper listed spec impulses of 1,400,000 with acceptable
thrust to weight (given some scaling efficencies and optimism).  He also
listed 1 - 2 order of mag improvements if 6Li or 3He systems.  I'm assuming
(after some confused calculations) that, that would translate to atleast a
2,500,000 spec imp system with usable thrust to weight in 50 years.

Kelly

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.magec.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 18:09:25 -0500

> >> So in short, you use a accelerator build up from several loose cannons
in a
> >> path spaced through our Solar system.
> >
> >Cannons?  I don't follow.

> I assumed the tugs where a laser cannons.

> >> Changing the distances between accelerations may decrease the mean
> >> acceleration but not the instant acceleration. I think it is the latter
> >> that we need to be concerned about.
> >
> >No, the canisters would be undergoing contiuous boost for the entire
launch
> >track.  (Well, their might be a secound or two gap when one laser tug hand
> >off to the next.)

> Oh, I thought that every tug/cannon ignited a new 
> explosion. After such an explosion, it would take 
> a few seconds to cool (or to dillute the plasma)
> before a new explosion could take place.

No, a cycle of pulses has some advantages over a continuous burn, but eiather
way would work. Given the power levels were assuming I think you could assume
the reaction material would be contiuously boiling off.

Kelly

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
cc: David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        stevev@efn.org, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, bmansur@oc.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu
Subject: Re: Laser Aperture Size
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 18:10:44 -0500

> As far as your mirror problem, why bother? Why not 
> just pass TC by, use Lorentz Force Turning to swing 
> around on a return course and then use the original 
> beam to decelerate into the TC system from behind?

And how many generations would it take to do a 180 at light speed using
Lorentz Force Turning?

Kelly

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Subject: Re: Another piece of the puzzle?
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 18:11:12 -0500

> Could we use polarisation as a way to eliminate the effect 
> of a backward and forward moving beam in the same path. 
> What if we can make it so that the forward moving beam is 
>  horizontally polarized and the backwardmoving beam is 
>  vertically polarized? All the ships sail? has to do is to  
> discriminate between both kinds of
> polarizations and thus reflect only on of the two.

Hummm.  Could making the mesh out of long open strips, not open squares,
effect its reactions to a polorized beam?

Kelly

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:55:49 +0100

Lee wrote,

>>Although, I don't know what this program or the equation looks like, I've
>>serious doubts if they are right. This is because the numbers don't line up
>>with my own and with Steve's calculations. (2 to 1)
>>
>I checked his equation source and it is the right equation for non
>relativistic flight, I have the version for relativistic flight if you want
>it. Actually his numbers don't look to far off. Because of the extremely
>high specific impulses he listed, the mass ration is very low.

I already see what makes the difference (besides the fact that formula
doesn't take into account what the energy:mass ratio of the fuel is). For
slightly different exhaust speeds (around 0.08c) the ratios are optimal. I
must have overlooked that in Kellies table, where at the top this speed of
25M is used. I don't understand however why all the other numbers are shown
in the table.

>However, I would like to know where his choices of Specific Impulse I(sp)
>came from they look a little outrageous.

I can tell you (and show you, but would not recommend) that for a final
velocity of 100,000,000 m/s an exhaust speed of 24,500,000 m/s is optimal
(assuming a mass:energy ratio of 300) The initial:final weight ratio is 70:1
in that case. (All these numbers are rather critical!)

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Sail Questions
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:55:55 +0100

To Lee,

>>>Umm, monofilament diamond?
>>
>>I'm not sure what this is, is this a suggestion or a question?
>>
>Kind of both, since we can't exactly make it yet, but it is strong and light
>enough to do the job. Monofilament carbon is closer to our reach and almost
>as strong. Materials science is progressing swiftly, who knows what will
happen?

But how many of such wires would you need per square metre? You must assume
a pull-pressure of at least 1 bar (1E5 Pascal). I wonder if a 100 nm layer
could hold such a pressure.

>>We weren't going to use...
>
>It doesn't really matter whether you are talking a straight solar sail or a
>beam pushed sail (the Lightness Number (Ln) is the ratio of its acceleration
>by light pressure to the star's gravitational acceleration. In other words,
>you still have to worry about mass. As you pointed out, you could keep
>increasing beam density to compensate, but there is a point where you can't
>go any farther.

Do you know numbers for this breakdown energy-pressure? I've tried finding
some, but did not succeed.

>If you don't pay attention to weight ALL the time, you end up wasting lots
>of potential payload.

Yes, I'm aware of that, but I don't see how some 100 km foil-disc is going
to pull the starship without being teared apart.

>>Assuming the we have a sail made of a mesh with 2 mm-2 cm holes, I don't
>>think that would matter much.
>
>Probably not, but your holes need to be closer to 0.12 um for infrared and
>even smaller for visible or UV. The higher the frequency of the radiation
>you use, the smaller the aperature of the laser you are using for
>propulsion. I earlier posted the result of the calculations for a yellow
>light laser, it was 400 km across at the aperature. Obviously, UV would be
>much better! Also, you need to remember that laser intensity will decline as
>the inverse square of the distance from the source. I've seen somebody's
>posted calculations of beam power requirements, but I think they are too low.

But until now most of us were talking about using micro-waves.

>>You are talking about loss of area, what kind of an area are you talking
>>about? Does this also count for aluminium?
>
>Yes.

What I meant was for aluminium rods (say 1 cm cross-section). Are these
dust-particles also making completely cut trough holes in such rods?

>I was only pointing out that the only figures I've seen for erosion were for
>ridiculously low speeds, there would be a significantly higher amount for
>higher velocities.

0.2 c isn't ridiculously low. (unless you compare them with 0.999c)

Tim

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:26:50 -0500

At 4:32 PM 3/8/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>>Opps forgot to add the mass ration numbers.  :(
>>
>>Specific impulse
>> (exaust velocity)
>>                Speed 50,000,000 m/s (1/6 light
>>                speed)
>>                                              Speed 100,000,000 m/s (1/3 light
>>                                              speed)
>>   2,500,000 sec
>> (25,000,000m/s)
>>                7 to 1 mass ratio.
>>                                              55 to 1 mass ratio.
>>   2,000,000 sec
>> (20,000,000m/s)
>>                12 to 1 mass ratio.
>>                                              148 to 1 mass ratio.
>>   1,500,000 sec
>> (15,000,000m/s)
>>                27 to 1 mass ratio.
>>                                              785 to 1 mass ratio.
>>
>
>Kelly, how did you calculate these numbers?
>
>Tim

found the equation.

A.1 The rocket equation

The "rocket equation" tells you that
the ratio of rocket mass when full of fuel to rocket mass after
burning the fuel is:

          m(i) / m(f) = exp ( dV / v(e) )

Where:
     m(i)  = intial mass
     m(f)  = final mass
     dV    = velocity change (9000 m/s in this case)
     v(e)  = exhaust velocity (4500 m/s in this case)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Brian Mansur , kellyst@aol.com (Kelly Starks AOL account)
Cc: Brian Mansur , "L. Parker" ,
        David , hous0042 ,
        jim ,
         Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
         rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Argosy Mission Overhaul
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:35:12 -0500

At 4:45 PM 3/9/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
> ----------
>From: L. Parker
>To: Brian Mansur
>Subject: Re: Argosy Mission Overhaul
>Date: Friday, March 08, 1996 11:30PM
>
>>From Brian,
>
>>Lee
>>Well, it sounds like a good idea to me, except I think I would reduce the
>>size of these ships to around 50 to 100 tons max and send more than one to
>>each destination, at least six.
>
>>I'm not much of a gambler, can you tell?
>
>>Using a combination of solar sails and lasers and RAIR we can get such a
>>ship up to around 0.4c fairly easily. Deceleration would have to be a
>>combination of drag screen and RAIR as well.
>
>Brian,
>Yesterday, AFTER I sent the mission overhaul letter, I went to the mall and
>found a book called _The Physics of Immortality_.  It described Neumman
>probes (I think I spelled that right) that were launched to the nearer stars
>(including TC!).  These probes explored the system, replicated themselves,
>and launched to other stars.  It was a slow process of exploring the galaxy,
>but is worked simply because it assumed complete robotic automation that
>almost never failed.
>
>In theory we can and will develop such robots but that could be centuries
>into the future.  Assuming that lightsails are the fasted and safest forms
>of propulsion when and if the automation advances occur, humanity will
>expand by first sending his robots to the stars.  They will set up power
>arrays, laser cannons to decelerate incoming colonists, and some
>neighborhoods for those colonists to start new lives in.  They might also
>just terraform a few planets and moons while they are at it.

In that case the mission would be redundant, since their would be no
furtherreason to explore.

>Something that I have noticed about every design proposal on the board is
>that they almost all have to have high degrees of robotic automation.  That
>or they need A LOT of man power that we probably won't be able to support
>for a simple exploration mission.  Its a real bumber but that seems to be
>the deal.
>
>Think about it.  The maser/laser driven sails need 1E18 (probably  1E20 to
>account for efficiency) to fly.  That means planet size power arrays if the
>source is solar.  The RAIRs need lots of fuel that has to be packaged and
>put into position by some kind of infrastructure.  That _just_ might be
>within the capabilities of human manpower.  Anti-matter energy has to be
>made from an equal (or greater depending on efficiency) amount of energy.
> That equates to huge power stations to do the matter/anti-matter
>conversion.  Simply launching rockets with fusion pellets as their fuel
>(like the Daedalus) may be doable for small loads but we would quickly run
>out of rare isotope  fusion fuel.  Unless, of course, A LOT more could be
>made by some trick of physics involving fusion techniques perhaps.  Of
>course, a rare isotope factory would most likely require a huge power array
>to run it.

Fission reactors can generate rare isotopes if standard issotopes are used
as shielding mass.  Unfortuntly, unless we use them to power this mess.
There wouldn't be enough demand to requre that much power.

>There does seem to be some hope for an easier future, powerwise.  If this
>cold fusion thing that Tim alerted us do is not a hoax or is less fantastic
>discovery than it sounds like, we could be going places we thought were
>going to be out of our reach for decades and centuries.
>
>There is hope.  Let's keep trying.


Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Brian Mansur 
Cc: bmansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
         "L. Parker" ,
         rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: Explorer Power Gain Problem
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:45:40 -0500

Damn, I thought I caught up with all of these then I found some people sent
to my office but not my home!!!


At 5:27 PM 3/9/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
>>From Brian
>
>Kelly, I was looking over your explorer paper and the power section, trying
>to understand how you got a power gain of 1E9 W per second.  Your equation
>went something like:
>
>P = F dx/dt = m*a*dx/dt
>
>The mass of the ship was 100E6 kg.  The acceleration was 10m/s^2.  The
>duration of acceleration was 1E7 seconds.  You plugged in the numbers like
>this:
>
>100E6kg * 10m/s^2 * 5m/s = 5E9W
>
>Where did that 5m/s come from.  I thought dx/dt was a distance traveled in
>one second.  My physics textbook tells me power is F * v where v is
>velocity.  Since our average speed is 5E7 m/s (average between our terminal
>speed of 1E8 m/s and 0 m/s) the equation should look like this:
>
>100E6kg * 10m/s^2 * 5E7m/s = 5E16W.

5m/s is the amount of distence it would travel in the first second.  The
equation was computing only the power needed for one secound of boost.  I'm
not sure if the equation is set up right, but it would suggest your 5e16w
number for the full boost to .3c.

>
>If I'm right, that is a hefty difference in power gain which we couldn't
>hope to meet without loading tremendous amounts of fusion fuel.  Please tell
>me that I'm the one who is wrong.  Also, when I ran the numbers for K.E.
>using the relativity equation and the basic physics equation (these are on
>your explorer paper and I don't have time to write them here) I came up with
>a 100+ fold difference in power.  Can you confirm this?  Do you even have
>time to read this letter? :)

I can't confirm this, but I do know the energy numbers I worked out in the
Explorer page were sloppy.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 08:51:28 -0500

At 8:55 AM 3/11/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>Lee wrote,
>
>>>Although, I don't know what this program or the equation looks like, I've
>>>serious doubts if they are right. This is because the numbers don't line up
>>>with my own and with Steve's calculations. (2 to 1)
>>>
>>I checked his equation source and it is the right equation for non
>>relativistic flight, I have the version for relativistic flight if you want
>>it. Actually his numbers don't look to far off. Because of the extremely
>>high specific impulses he listed, the mass ration is very low.
>
>I already see what makes the difference (besides the fact that formula
>doesn't take into account what the energy:mass ratio of the fuel is). For
>slightly different exhaust speeds (around 0.08c) the ratios are optimal. I
>must have overlooked that in Kellies table, where at the top this speed of
>25M is used. I don't understand however why all the other numbers are shown
>in the table.

I wanted to show all mass ratio's with various specific impulse numbers.

>>However, I would like to know where his choices of Specific Impulse I(sp)
>>came from they look a little outrageous.
>
>I can tell you (and show you, but would not recommend) that for a final
>velocity of 100,000,000 m/s an exhaust speed of 24,500,000 m/s is optimal
>(assuming a mass:energy ratio of 300) The initial:final weight ratio is 70:1
>in that case. (All these numbers are rather critical!)
>
>Timothy

Agreed, unfortunatly the papers weren't that interested in the systems with
spec impulse of over 1,400,000.  Which is anoying.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Mon Mar 11 22:03:54 GMT 1996
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	["592" "Mon" "11" "March" "1996" "16:30:49" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" "<199603111531.AA26695@student.utwente.nl>" "15" "Core memory" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Core memory
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 16:30:49 +0100

To Steve,

Thanks for explaining the core-memory so clearly (Your ascii-art looks great)

>Although it takes more current to read or write a core than it takes to
>update a semiconductor memory cell, no power is required to maintain the
>state of core memory.  It wasn't until about the mid-70s that
>semiconductor memory became all of faster, denser, less power-intensive,
>and cheaper than equivalent amounts of core memory, and core was still
>used for some time after that.

Why doesn't the magnetic field in the ferrite core degrade? (I assume the
ferrite has some resistance.)

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Argosy Mission Overhaul
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 16:30:43 +0100

To Brian,

Your story about probes made me remember a story of Startrek. An alien probe
"programmed" one of the crew-members who became very intelligent. Driven by
his new intelligence the crew member changed the matrix of
quantum-space-time in such a way that the whole Enterprise traveled 10,000
ly in a few seconds. There an alien race waited for them. That alien race
figured it was much easier to make other races come to them than the
otherway around. (I found the whole idea, quite fascinating)

>Think about it.  The maser/laser driven sails need 1E18 (probably  1E20 to 
>account for efficiency) to fly.  That means planet size power arrays if the 
>source is solar.  The RAIRs need lots of fuel that has to be packaged and 
>put into position by some kind of infrastructure.  That _just_ might be 
>within the capabilities of human manpower.  Anti-matter energy has to be 
>made from an equal (or greater depending on efficiency) amount of energy. 
> That equates to huge power stations to do the matter/anti-matter 
>conversion.  Simply launching rockets with fusion pellets as their fuel 
>(like the Daedalus) may be doable for small loads but we would quickly run 
>out of rare isotope  fusion fuel.  Unless, of course, A LOT more could be 
>made by some trick of physics involving fusion techniques perhaps.  Of 
>course, a rare isotope factory would most likely require a huge power array 
>to run it.

Although the use of robots is tempting, we should try to focus on other
ideas that include less intelligent automation. We "know" AI-robots could
make anything work but that solution would be a bit too simple, unless we
could come up with a rough design for such kind of robot.

>There does seem to be some hope for an easier future, powerwise.  If this 
>cold fusion thing that Tim alerted us do is not a hoax or is less fantastic 
>discovery than it sounds like, we could be going places we thought were 
>going to be out of our reach for decades and centuries.

I'm not sure if I was the one who alerted everybody, someone else asked what
it prospects were and by coincidence a few days later I got some information
about it.

Tim

P.S. I'm wondering if you haven't given up sails too fast, anyway continue
your search for new possibilities.

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Orbit B
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 17:40:02 +0100

>> You have managed to overcome the problem of a forward and backward moving
>> beam in the same lane. But by solving that problem you added another (how
>> could it have been different) namely that the distance between mirror and
>> our ship has been lengthened by I think at least 4 ly.
>
>yes, it looks that way.  BTW, i don't think we can let the RR crash into 
>the target star, if we do, then the decell beam will cut out with 2 
>light-years to go (assuming a 4 LY separation)

It should not even fly close to TC, otherwise gravity would bend it path in
a way we might not like it.


Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 17:40:06 +0100

To Kelly,

>> Oh, I thought that every tug/cannon ignited a new 
>> explosion. After such an explosion, it would take 
>> a few seconds to cool (or to dillute the plasma)
>> before a new explosion could take place.
>
>No, a cycle of pulses has some advantages over a continuous burn, but eiather
>way would work. Given the power levels were assuming I think you could assume
>the reaction material would be contiuously boiling off.

OK, one thing though, wouldn't the aiming of the laser-tugs not be too
diffucult? You need to aim with several meter accuracy on an object moving
with velocities ranging upto 0.3c

Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Another piece of the puzzle?
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 17:39:54 +0100

To Lee,

>>- A polarisation turner (at the retro-mirror)
>>- A sail that reflects only horizontal or vertical polarized maserlight.
>>
>>Do such materials exist (and are they not to difficult to use in large
>>quantities)?
>
>Yes.
>No.

Do you know the name of such materials?
Why are you so sure these materials aren't easely made?

Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Another piece of the puzzle?
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 17:40:11 +0100

To Kelly,

>> Could we use polarisation as a way to eliminate the effect 
>> of a backward and forward moving beam in the same path. 
>> What if we can make it so that the forward moving beam is 
>>  horizontally polarized and the backwardmoving beam is 
>>  vertically polarized? All the ships sail? has to do is to  
>> discriminate between both kinds of
>> polarizations and thus reflect only on of the two.
>
>Hummm.  Could making the mesh out of long open strips, not open squares,
>effect its reactions to a polorized beam?

Yes, it would reflect or let through only one polarisation. But I still need
a  polarization changer at the retro-mirror.
So one piece is already there, now the other one...

Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 17:40:20 +0100

>>Kelly, how did you calculate these numbers?
>>
>>Tim
>
>found the equation.
>
>A.1 The rocket equation
>
>The "rocket equation" tells you that
>the ratio of rocket mass when full of fuel to rocket mass after
>burning the fuel is:
>
>          m(i) / m(f) = exp ( dV / v(e) )

Yups, I already found it when you pointed out where to look for it.

===============================================================================

>>I already see what makes the difference (besides the fact that formula
>>doesn't take into account what the energy:mass ratio of the fuel is). For
>>slightly different exhaust speeds (around 0.08c) the ratios are optimal. I
>>must have overlooked that in Kellies table, where at the top this speed of
>>25M is used. I don't understand however why all the other numbers are shown
>>in the table.
>
>I wanted to show all mass ratio's with various specific impulse numbers.

OK, unfortunately (as you stated below) the paper didn't show all there was,
your numbers only showed a decrease of mass for lower exhaust-velocities.
I found out that for high exhaust speed the mass goes up because of the
extra kinetic energy (could be overcome by beaming) and for lower speeds the
mass goes up too, because of the waste of energy (ie. using fusion fuel as
reaction mass).

So one needs to find the valley between the (ever rising) hills.
The formula to do this:

  BestG:=1+1/(f-1);                     (the relativistic gamma)
  BestV:=c*Sqrt(Sqr(BestG)-1)/BestG     (the accompanying velcity)

The optimum exhaust-velocity is only dependent on the mass:energy ratio of
the fuel (thus not on the final velocity).

 f   exhaust velocity (in c)
200        0.09987
250        0.08935
300        0.08158
350        0.07554
400        0.07067
450        0.06663
500        0.06321

(f is the mass:energy ratio (about 270 is the best for fusion untill now))

The next table shows the ship:fuel ratios needed to accelerate upto the
final velocities that vary horizontally. Vertically the energy:mass ratios
of the fuel are varied.
Every time the optimal exhaust speed is used (this can be looked up in the
previous table).

                  End velocity -->
      0.10      0.20      0.30      0.40    0.50    0.60    0.70
200     2.7       7.6      22.2      69.5     244    1032    5906
250     3.1       9.7      31.9     114.6     467    2338   16422
300     3.4      12.0      44.4     180.0     839    4896   41401
350     3.8      14.6      60.2     272.7    1439    9662   96907
400     4.1      17.6      79.8     401.4    2376   18191  213876
450     4.5      21.0     104.1     577.2    3805   32958  449882
500     4.9      24.7     133.8     813.9    5941   57820  908988
 ^
 +--- Energy:mass ratio of the (fusion) fuel


If anything is unclear, don't hesitate to ask.

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 17:40:20 +0100

>>Kelly, how did you calculate these numbers?
>>
>>Tim
>
>found the equation.
>
>A.1 The rocket equation
>
>The "rocket equation" tells you that
>the ratio of rocket mass when full of fuel to rocket mass after
>burning the fuel is:
>
>          m(i) / m(f) = exp ( dV / v(e) )

Yups, I already found it when you pointed out where to look for it.

===============================================================================

>>I already see what makes the difference (besides the fact that formula
>>doesn't take into account what the energy:mass ratio of the fuel is). For
>>slightly different exhaust speeds (around 0.08c) the ratios are optimal. I
>>must have overlooked that in Kellies table, where at the top this speed of
>>25M is used. I don't understand however why all the other numbers are shown
>>in the table.
>
>I wanted to show all mass ratio's with various specific impulse numbers.

OK, unfortunately (as you stated below) the paper didn't show all there was,
your numbers only showed a decrease of mass for lower exhaust-velocities.
I found out that for high exhaust speed the mass goes up because of the
extra kinetic energy (could be overcome by beaming) and for lower speeds the
mass goes up too, because of the waste of energy (ie. using fusion fuel as
reaction mass).

So one needs to find the valley between the (ever rising) hills.
The formula to do this:

  BestG:=1+1/(f-1);                     (the relativistic gamma)
  BestV:=c*Sqrt(Sqr(BestG)-1)/BestG     (the accompanying velcity)

The optimum exhaust-velocity is only dependent on the mass:energy ratio of
the fuel (thus not on the final velocity).

 f   exhaust velocity (in c)
200        0.09987
250        0.08935
300        0.08158
350        0.07554
400        0.07067
450        0.06663
500        0.06321

(f is the mass:energy ratio (about 270 is the best for fusion untill now))

The next table shows the ship:fuel ratios needed to accelerate upto the
final velocities that vary horizontally. Vertically the energy:mass ratios
of the fuel are varied.
Every time the optimal exhaust speed is used (this can be looked up in the
previous table).

                  End velocity -->
      0.10      0.20      0.30      0.40    0.50    0.60    0.70
200     2.7       7.6      22.2      69.5     244    1032    5906
250     3.1       9.7      31.9     114.6     467    2338   16422
300     3.4      12.0      44.4     180.0     839    4896   41401
350     3.8      14.6      60.2     272.7    1439    9662   96907
400     4.1      17.6      79.8     401.4    2376   18191  213876
450     4.5      21.0     104.1     577.2    3805   32958  449882
500     4.9      24.7     133.8     813.9    5941   57820  908988
 ^
 +--- Energy:mass ratio of the (fusion) fuel


If anything is unclear, don't hesitate to ask.

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 17:40:16 +0100

>>Kelly, how did you calculate these numbers?
>>
>>Tim
>
>found the equation.
>
>A.1 The rocket equation
>
>The "rocket equation" tells you that
>the ratio of rocket mass when full of fuel to rocket mass after
>burning the fuel is:
>
>          m(i) / m(f) = exp ( dV / v(e) )

Yups, I already found it when you pointed out where I could find it.

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 13:03:46 -0500

At 5:40 PM 3/11/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>To Kelly,
>
>>> Oh, I thought that every tug/cannon ignited a new
>>> explosion. After such an explosion, it would take
>>> a few seconds to cool (or to dillute the plasma)
>>> before a new explosion could take place.
>>
>>No, a cycle of pulses has some advantages over a continuous burn, but eiather
>>way would work. Given the power levels were assuming I think you could assume
>>the reaction material would be contiuously boiling off.
>
>OK, one thing though, wouldn't the aiming of the laser-tugs not be too
>diffucult? You need to aim with several meter accuracy on an object moving
>with velocities ranging upto 0.3c
>
>Tim

Do you mean you think it would be difficult, or wouldn't be?

It might be very difficult, but I think the precision is possible.  (Not
that I have any experence to back that up.)  At least the angle would be
shallow.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Another piece of the puzzle?
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 13:07:54 -0500

At 5:39 PM 3/11/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>To Lee,
>
>>>- A polarisation turner (at the retro-mirror)
>>>- A sail that reflects only horizontal or vertical polarized maserlight.
>>>
>>>Do such materials exist (and are they not to difficult to use in large
>>>quantities)?
>>
>>Yes.
>>No.
>
>Do you know the name of such materials?
>Why are you so sure these materials aren't easely made?
>
>Tim

Some crystals twist the polarization of light that shines through it.
Don't know about the power absorbtion thou.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Another piece of the puzzle?
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 13:06:24 -0500

At 5:40 PM 3/11/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>To Kelly,
>
>>> Could we use polarisation as a way to eliminate the effect
>>> of a backward and forward moving beam in the same path.
>>> What if we can make it so that the forward moving beam is
>>>  horizontally polarized and the backwardmoving beam is
>>>  vertically polarized? All the ships sail? has to do is to
>>> discriminate between both kinds of
>>> polarizations and thus reflect only on of the two.
>>
>>Hummm.  Could making the mesh out of long open strips, not open squares,
>>effect its reactions to a polorized beam?
>
>Yes, it would reflect or let through only one polarisation. But I still need
>a  polarization changer at the retro-mirror.
>So one piece is already there, now the other one...
>
>Tim
 Sounds like the reflector would be a series of angular reflectors.  They
would reflect the beam a couple of times at angles that would twist the
polorization before returning it.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 13:27:54 -0500

At 5:40 PM 3/11/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>>>Kelly, how did you calculate these numbers?
>>>
>>>Tim
>>
>>found the equation.
>>
>>A.1 The rocket equation
>>
>>The "rocket equation" tells you that
>>the ratio of rocket mass when full of fuel to rocket mass after
>>burning the fuel is:
>>
>>          m(i) / m(f) = exp ( dV / v(e) )
>
>Yups, I already found it when you pointed out where to look for it.

Pity I didn't read that until after I sent the equation.  Oh, well at least
we are on the same equation.

>===============================================================================
>
>>>I already see what makes the difference (besides the fact that formula
>>>doesn't take into account what the energy:mass ratio of the fuel is). For
>>>slightly different exhaust speeds (around 0.08c) the ratios are optimal. I
>>>must have overlooked that in Kellies table, where at the top this speed of
>>>25M is used. I don't understand however why all the other numbers are shown
>>>in the table.
>>
>>I wanted to show all mass ratio's with various specific impulse numbers.
>
>OK, unfortunately (as you stated below) the paper didn't show all there was,
>your numbers only showed a decrease of mass for lower exhaust-velocities.
>I found out that for high exhaust speed the mass goes up because of the
>extra kinetic energy (could be overcome by beaming) and for lower speeds the
>mass goes up too, because of the waste of energy (ie. using fusion fuel as
>reaction mass).

I'm not sure I follow this.  By waste energy are you implying the same
specific impulse ratio could be developed with lower fuel to reaction mass
ratios?  Given that the fusion reactions are listed as releasing all the
fusion energy in the kinetic energy of there particals, I assumed that was
about the best we could do.

>So one needs to find the valley between the (ever rising) hills.
>The formula to do this:
>
>  BestG:=1+1/(f-1);                     (the relativistic gamma)
>  BestV:=c*Sqrt(Sqr(BestG)-1)/BestG     (the accompanying velcity)
>
>The optimum exhaust-velocity is only dependent on the mass:energy ratio of
>the fuel (thus not on the final velocity).
>
> f   exhaust velocity (in c)
>200        0.09987
>250        0.08935
>300        0.08158
>350        0.07554
>400        0.07067
>450        0.06663
>500        0.06321
>
>(f is the mass:energy ratio (about 270 is the best for fusion untill now))
>
>The next table shows the ship:fuel ratios needed to accelerate upto the
>final velocities that vary horizontally. Vertically the energy:mass ratios
>of the fuel are varied.
>Every time the optimal exhaust speed is used (this can be looked up in the
>previous table).
>
>                  End velocity -->
>      0.10      0.20      0.30      0.40    0.50    0.60    0.70
>200     2.7       7.6      22.2      69.5     244    1032    5906
>250     3.1       9.7      31.9     114.6     467    2338   16422
>300     3.4      12.0      44.4     180.0     839    4896   41401
>350     3.8      14.6      60.2     272.7    1439    9662   96907
>400     4.1      17.6      79.8     401.4    2376   18191  213876
>450     4.5      21.0     104.1     577.2    3805   32958  449882
>500     4.9      24.7     133.8     813.9    5941   57820  908988
> ^
> +--- Energy:mass ratio of the (fusion) fuel
>
>
>If anything is unclear, don't hesitate to ask.
>
>Timothy

Mass energy ration of what?  Kinetic energy to mass?  Thermal energy to
mass? etc...

Your table apears to show that I could get lower ship to fuel mass ratios
than I expected.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: Brian Mansur 
To: kellyst , kgstar 
Cc: Brian Mansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        "L. Parker" ,
         rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Argosy Mission Overhaul
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 96 15:09:00 PST


>From Brian


>Brian,
>Yesterday, AFTER I sent the mission overhaul letter, I went to the mall and
>found a book called _The Physics of Immortality_.  It described Neumman
>probes (I think I spelled that right) that were launched to the nearer 
stars
>(including TC!).  These probes explored the system, replicated themselves,
>and launched to other stars.  It was a slow process of exploring the 
galaxy,
>but is worked simply because it assumed complete robotic automation that
>almost never failed.
>
>In theory we can and will develop such robots but that could be centuries
>into the future.  Assuming that lightsails are the fasted and safest forms
>of propulsion when and if the automation advances occur, humanity will
>expand by first sending his robots to the stars.  They will set up power
>arrays, laser cannons to decelerate incoming colonists, and some
>neighborhoods for those colonists to start new lives in.  They might also
>just terraform a few planets and moons while they are at it.

>Kelly
>In that case the mission would be redundant, since their would be no
>further reason to explore.

Brian
There would still be exploring left to do.  The robots could probably do 
only so much depending on AI sophistication and programing.  Humans 
decisions would be required for followup study on new and interesting data. 


But you are right.  Overall, human exploration would be redundant, at least 
for the purpose of determining the potential habitability of star systems. 
 And that was or at least should have been a major point of my summary.  

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: kgstar 
Cc: bmansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        "L. Parker" ,
         rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
Subject: Re: Explorer Power Gain Problem
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 96 15:18:00 PST



 ----------
From: kgstar
To: Brian Mansur
Cc: bmansur; David; hous0042; jim; Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39; L. Parker; 
rddesign; Steve VanDevender; T.L.G.vanderLinden
Subject: Re: Explorer Power Gain Problem
Date: Monday, March 11, 1996 8:45AM

>From Brian

>Kelly
>Damn, I thought I caught up with all of these then I found some people sent
>to my office but not my home!!!

Brian.
No more need to worry about any mail avalanches coming from me.  I need to 
do school work and I'm limiting myself to a max of 1 hr. a day for e-mail 
response.  Probably less actually and perhaps not every day even.

>Brian
>Your numbers plugged in like this for your Explorer power requirements for 
a >10m/s^2 acceleration.
>
>100E6kg * 10m/s^2 * 5m/s = 5E9W
>
>Where did that 5m/s come from.  I thought dx/dt was a distance traveled in
>one second.  My physics textbook tells me power is F * v where v is
>velocity.  Since our average speed is 5E7 m/s (average between our terminal
>speed of 1E8 m/s and 0 m/s) the equation should look like this:
>
>100E6kg * 10m/s^2 * 5E7m/s = 5E16W.

>Kelly
>5m/s is the amount of distence it would travel in the first second.  The
>equation was computing only the power needed for one secound of boost.  I'm
>not sure if the equation is set up right, but it would suggest your 5e16w
>number for the full boost to .3c.

Brian
I'm starting to see a pattern to all of our starship design problems. 
 However bad we think something is.  Multiply that problem by a factor of E9 
and that should keep us in the gremlin's ballpark (and in the solar system 
unfortunately).

>Brian
>If I'm right, that is a hefty difference in power gain which we couldn't
>hope to meet without loading tremendous amounts of fusion fuel.  Can you 
>confirm this?

>Kelly
>I can't confirm this, but I do know the energy numbers I worked out in the
>Explorer page were sloppy.

Brian
Does ANYONE know the proper equations?  I'll try to find time to ask my 
phsyics professor.  

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , kgstar ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
To: zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Argosy Mission Overhaul
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 96 16:15:00 PST


>From Brian,

>Tim
>Your story about probes made me remember a story of Startrek. An alien 
>probe "programmed" one of the crew-members who became very intelligent. 
>Driven by his new intelligence the crew member changed the matrix of
>quantum-space-time in such a way that the whole Enterprise traveled 10,000
>ly in a few seconds. There an alien race waited for them. That alien race
>figured it was much easier to make other races come to them than the
>otherway around. (I found the whole idea, quite fascinating)

Brian
I saw that episode and thought it would have been cool if the Enterprise had 
spent a few more episodes just exploring strange new worlds in that corner 
of the galaxy.  Would have been a little like Voyager come to think of it.

>Think about it.  The maser/laser driven sails need 1E18 (probably  1E20 to
>account for efficiency) to fly.  That means planet size power arrays if the 

>source is solar.  The RAIRs need lots of fuel that has to be packaged and
>put into position by some kind of infrastructure.  That _just_ might be
>within the capabilities of human manpower.  Anti-matter energy has to be
>made from an equal (or greater depending on efficiency) amount of energy.
> That equates to huge power stations to do the matter/anti-matter
>conversion.  Simply launching rockets with fusion pellets as their fuel
>(like the Daedalus) may be doable for small loads but we would quickly run
>out of rare isotope  fusion fuel.  Unless, of course, A LOT more could be
>made by some trick of physics involving fusion techniques perhaps.  Of
>course, a rare isotope factory would most likely require a huge power array 

>to run it.

>Tim
>Although the use of robots is tempting, we should try to focus on other
>ideas that include less intelligent automation.

Brian
I agree that it would be better, but since I've sunk so much time into this 
design already, I'll go ahead and write up an Argosy paper that assumes the 
high robotic tech.  Who knows, it may turn out useful for the LIT charter 
purpose after all.  And then I'll try to come back to the 20th/21st century 
:).

>Tim
>We "know" AI-robots could make anything work but that solution would be a 
bit >too simple, unless we could come up with a rough design for such kind 
of >robot.

Actually, I'm assuming that robots would have limits based on their 
programming.  I imagine that the first working, completely automated systems 
would, in some ways, be less efficient in computer controled hands than if 
humans were doing the same job.  For example: how do you think computers and 
robots would have handled the job of bringing home the  Apollo 13 crew?

Suppose that computers and robots were acting as mission control.  Also 
suppose that these computers were dependant on programming that told them 
what to do when hazardous "what if" situations threatened the mission (like 
an exploding oxygen tank disabling the Odyssey).  If  the only programming 
that the computers had for dealing with problems was what the programmers 
had anticipated, then Apollo 13 would never have made it back to Earth.  The 
computers would have never used the LEM to do course corrections because 
none of the gremlin guys responsible for anticipating problems had even 
bothered to simulate using the LEM for course corrections and so that would 
never have been programmed in to be considered as a possibilty (that is a 
long sentence!).

Now that is how the computers (that I am aware of) work.  A more advanced 
computer program in place of the imaginary mission control computer that 
would have just lost Apollo 13 might have been given different programming 
that would have told it to consider this problem (that's another long 
sentence): Service module disabled.  Need to make course corrections.  What 
is there onboard the spacecraft/LEM combo that could be used to make needed 
course corrections for spacecraft return to Earth given the guidance 
accuracy's of working onboard computers?  The computer, knowing through 
other programming that the LEM had an engine, might select the possibilty of 
using the LEM's landing engine.

I realize this is a sketchy and even inaccurate description of just some of 
the complications of artificial intelligence.  And the purpose of our 
discussion is to build a starship that will take us to TC.  But needless to 
say, a computer would have lost the Apollo 13 mission because it was a dead 
ship, with no power to even run the guidance computers.   So even if the 
computers had thought to use the LEM to correct the ship's course, it 
wouldn't have been able to carry that decision through for lack of power 
onboard.

The spacecraft would have been written off as a loss by the computers.  In a 
robotic society something else would have been built and launched to take 
Apollo 13's  place (unfortunately Lovell, Swigert, and Hayes would be a 
little bit more difficult to replace ;).  This would have been done because 
the self-automated robot society is based on MASS production where every 
part of the robotic civilization is easy to build, and, therefore, easily 
replaceable.  This mass production approach accounts for defects in the 
system that, while repairable through human intervention, are considered too 
insignificant to bother with.  Why worry about a dying drone when you have a 
million others to handle its job?  Fortunately, this system doesn't apply to 
human societies where we do bother to heal the sick.

This is my conservative twist for my already unconservative assumption of 
robotic automation and it is designed to help me believe in my own automated 
robot solutions.  I'll try to give the group a baseline plan for how such a 
robotic system would work.  It will probably have components inferred by the 
previous discussion and you can bet it will be filled with problems that 
might possibly even spark another avalanche of disscusion letters.  By the 
way.  I have 41 unread messages right now.  Most of which I probably won't 
read till Spring Break later this week.

>Tim
>I'm wondering if you haven't given up sails too fast, anyway continue
>your search for new possibilities.

Brian
I haven't up on the sails.   I've just given up on retro-sails.  At least 
for now.  I'll probably reconsider it one of these days.

The Argosy design that I have in mind is, in fact, a maser driven sail 
attached to a ion rocket with a habitat that carries colonists and explorers 
to a starsystem already visited by Pathfinding/Pathmaking robots.  Those 
robots are assumed to have set up a maser system for decelerating the ship. 
 This solves what has always been our biggest problem, stopping.  

From popserver Mon Mar 11 22:26:44 GMT 1996
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In-Reply-To: <199603111531.AA26695@student.utwente.nl>
References: <199603111531.AA26695@student.utwente.nl>
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Core memory
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 14:21:44 -0800

Timothy van der Linden writes:
 > To Steve,
 > 
 > Thanks for explaining the core-memory so clearly (Your ascii-art looks great)
 > 
 > >Although it takes more current to read or write a core than it takes to
 > >update a semiconductor memory cell, no power is required to maintain the
 > >state of core memory.  It wasn't until about the mid-70s that
 > >semiconductor memory became all of faster, denser, less power-intensive,
 > >and cheaper than equivalent amounts of core memory, and core was still
 > >used for some time after that.
 > 
 > Why doesn't the magnetic field in the ferrite core degrade? (I assume the
 > ferrite has some resistance.)

Have you ever known other magnets to degrade?  Once magnetized, a
material won't demagnetize unless exposed to heat above its Curie point
or another sufficiently strong magnetic field.

Magnetic materials have a certain amount of resistance to being
magnetized.  An external magnetic field won't affect the material until
it exceeds a certain strength; then the material is magnetized to the
orientation of the externally-applied field.  This is why only the core
at the intersection of the two address wires is magnetized; the current
sent through the address wires creates a magnetic field around the wires
lower than this threshold, but the sum of the fields at the intersection
of the wires is greater than this threshold.

 > Timothy

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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: interstellar drive group , David@interworld.com,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 16:59:32 -0600 (CST)



Here is a table of some maser sail numbers.

I think that 50 g/m^2 is kind of heavy, but as Tim said, this is going to 
be subject to some severe torture.  Perhaps the RR will sweep away the 
ICM particles, but I don't know.  No matter what the final density is, 
i think these numbers will behave the same way, (ie limiting values on 
heat load and stress)

Ship's  Sail  Sail   Sail    Total   Accel   Maser   Refl  Excess  Stress
Mass   Radius Dens   Mass    Mass            Energy  Eff.  Energy
Kg       Km   g/m^2   Kg      Kg     M/s^2   Watts    %    KW/m^s  Pascals
5E5      10    50   1.57E+07  1.6E+07  10  2.43E+16  0.99  773.8  0.515915
5E5     100    50   1.57E+09  1.6E+09  10  2.36E+18  0.99  750.2  0.500159
5E5     500    50   3.93E+10  3.9E+10  10  5.89E+19  0.99  750.0  0.500006
5E5    1000    50   1.57E+11  1.57E+11 10  2.36E+20  0.99  750.0  0.500002
5E5    5000    50   3.93E+12  3.93E+12 10  5.89E+21  0.99  750.0  0.5
5E5   10000    50   1.57E+13  1.57E+13 10  2.36E+22  0.99  750.0  0.5
5E5  100000    50   1.57E+15  1.57E+15 10  2.36E+24  0.99  750.0  0.5	

Ship's mass is just the hab section  (no core, no RM tanks)
sail density does not include guy wires to the ship.
Excess energy is the part of the maser beam that does not reflect

Several things have become clear to me since I ran these numbers (in Excell)
and I should think they will become clear to you as well.

1) the sail is the heaviest part of the ship.  Even at 50 g/m^2, and 100 
Km in radius, the sail alone approaches my original MARS design (now a 
smoking ruin ;( )

2) both thermal energy and sail stress approach some limiting value as 
the sail expands, so endlessly expanding the sail (even if we could do 
it) would not solve any of the major problems (heat load and stress)

3) Stress is miniscule  I don't where you guys have been getitng your 
stress numbers, but they are out of whack.

for figure checking, reading line 3 with a sail of 100Km radius, and a 
total mass of 1.57E9 Kg we find that the force of acceleration is 
1.57 E10 newtons, and the total area is 3.14 E10 meters which of course 
is .5 pascals (even a wet nose tissue could stand up to that)

4) smaller sails may be better.  Why in the world you would need a sail 
the size of Luna, much less Jupiter, is beyond me.

5) Thermal load is a big problem.  750 KW on .05 Kg is a big worry.
I have not calculated the limiting temperature yet, but I am hopeful that 
titanium alloy will stand up to the load.  To do this model, I will use 
heat capacity and blackbody radiation equation.  I do not have time right 
now, but expect it soon.


Kevin

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Kevin C Houston 
Cc: interstellar drive group , David@interworld.com,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re: 
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:34:09 -0500

At 4:59 PM 3/11/96, Kevin C Houston wrote:
>Here is a table of some maser sail numbers.
>
>I think that 50 g/m^2 is kind of heavy, but as Tim said, this is going to
>be subject to some severe torture.  Perhaps the RR will sweep away the
>ICM particles, but I don't know.  No matter what the final density is,
>i think these numbers will behave the same way, (ie limiting values on
>heat load and stress)
>
>Ship's  Sail  Sail   Sail    Total   Accel   Maser   Refl  Excess  Stress
>Mass   Radius Dens   Mass    Mass            Energy  Eff.  Energy
>Kg       Km   g/m^2   Kg      Kg     M/s^2   Watts    %    KW/m^s  Pascals
>5E5      10    50   1.57E+07  1.6E+07  10  2.43E+16  0.99  773.8  0.515915
>5E5     100    50   1.57E+09  1.6E+09  10  2.36E+18  0.99  750.2  0.500159
>5E5     500    50   3.93E+10  3.9E+10  10  5.89E+19  0.99  750.0  0.500006
>5E5    1000    50   1.57E+11  1.57E+11 10  2.36E+20  0.99  750.0  0.500002
>5E5    5000    50   3.93E+12  3.93E+12 10  5.89E+21  0.99  750.0  0.5
>5E5   10000    50   1.57E+13  1.57E+13 10  2.36E+22  0.99  750.0  0.5
>5E5  100000    50   1.57E+15  1.57E+15 10  2.36E+24  0.99  750.0  0.5	

Numbers!  Great!

>Ship's mass is just the hab section  (no core, no RM tanks)
>sail density does not include guy wires to the ship.
>Excess energy is the part of the maser beam that does not reflect

Ship mass would have to be more than just the hab deck.  Also would have to
be more than you've shown.  If I'm reading this right, the ship weighs 5E5
kg.  Which is only 500 tons.  You might want to add 2-3 zeros to that
number. ;)

>Several things have become clear to me since I ran these numbers (in Excell)
>and I should think they will become clear to you as well.
>
>1) the sail is the heaviest part of the ship.  Even at 50 g/m^2, and 100
>Km in radius, the sail alone approaches my original MARS design (now a
>smoking ruin ;( )

We'll see.

>2) both thermal energy and sail stress approach some limiting value as
>the sail expands, so endlessly expanding the sail (even if we could do
>it) would not solve any of the major problems (heat load and stress)

That would depend on the thrust needed.  I agree that the stress factor is
minimal.

>3) Stress is miniscule  I don't where you guys have been getitng your
>stress numbers, but they are out of whack.
>
>for figure checking, reading line 3 with a sail of 100Km radius, and a
>total mass of 1.57E9 Kg we find that the force of acceleration is
>1.57 E10 newtons, and the total area is 3.14 E10 meters which of course
>is .5 pascals (even a wet nose tissue could stand up to that)
>
>4) smaller sails may be better.  Why in the world you would need a sail
>the size of Luna, much less Jupiter, is beyond me.
>
>5) Thermal load is a big problem.  750 KW on .05 Kg is a big worry.
>I have not calculated the limiting temperature yet, but I am hopeful that
>titanium alloy will stand up to the load.  To do this model, I will use
>heat capacity and blackbody radiation equation.  I do not have time right
>now, but expect it soon.
>
>
>Kevin


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 15:11:10 +0100

Goodmorning Kelly,

>>OK, one thing though, wouldn't the aiming of the laser-tugs not be too
>>diffucult? You need to aim with several meter accuracy on an object moving
>>with velocities ranging upto 0.3c
>
>Do you mean you think it would be difficult, or wouldn't be?

Sorry, I meant that it would be difficult.

>It might be very difficult, but I think the precision is possible.  (Not
>that I have any experence to back that up.)  At least the angle would be
>shallow.

Yes, that shallow angle makes it easier. But why not use one single laser?
That lases could be just near the launch-site, just like when used in any of
the Asimov designs.

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Another piece of the puzzle?
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 15:11:16 +0100

To Kelly,

>>Do you know the name of such materials?
>>Why are you so sure these materials aren't easely made?
>
>Some crystals twist the polarization of light that shines through it.
>Don't know about the power absorbtion thou.

Yes, now that you say it, I can remember, the amount of rotation depends on
the length of the crystal.

===============================================================================

>>Yes, it would reflect or let through only one polarisation. But I still need
>>a  polarization changer at the retro-mirror.
>>So one piece is already there, now the other one...
>
>Sounds like the reflector would be a series of angular reflectors.  They
>would reflect the beam a couple of times at angles that would twist the
>polorization before returning it.

With angular reflector you mean a mirror that reflects with an angle unequal
to 180 degrees?

If I'm informed right, reflection will (in the end) not give you any
rotation the polarization.


Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Explorer Power Gain Problem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 15:11:30 +0100

To Brian,

>>I can't confirm this, but I do know the energy numbers I worked out in the
>>Explorer page were sloppy.
>
>Brian
>Does ANYONE know the proper equations?  I'll try to find time to ask my 
>phsyics professor.  

I do know them, but also have noticed that it is potentially dangerous to
throw them in the ring. ;)

The formula in Kellies Explorer page is correct. The same thing you asked
about that 5 m/s, I asked Kelly some long time ago (so long that he probably
doesn't remember it anymore (no offence)).

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Argosy Mission Overhaul
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 15:11:36 +0100

To Brian,

>>Tim
>>We "know" AI-robots could make anything work but that solution would be a 
>bit >too simple, unless we could come up with a rough design for such kind 
>of >robot.
>
>Actually, I'm assuming that robots would have limits based on their 
>programming.  I imagine that the first working, completely automated systems 
>would, in some ways, be less efficient in computer controled hands than if 
>humans were doing the same job.  For example: how do you think computers and 
>robots would have handled the job of bringing home the  Apollo 13 crew?

In my opinion such robots are intelligent or they aren't (no way between).
Say that you have figured out a machine with an IQ of 40. Then you could
probably link them up in such a way that 10 of them together would have an
IQ of 100.

>Suppose that computers and robots were acting as mission control.  Also 
>suppose that these computers were dependant on programming that told them 
>what to do when hazardous "what if" situations threatened the mission (like 
>an exploding oxygen tank disabling the Odyssey).  If  the only programming 
>that the computers had for dealing with problems was what the programmers 
>had anticipated, then Apollo 13 would never have made it back to Earth.  The 
>computers would have never used the LEM to do course corrections because 
>none of the gremlin guys responsible for anticipating problems had even 
>bothered to simulate using the LEM for course corrections and so that would 
>never have been programmed in to be considered as a possibilty (that is a 
>long sentence!).

If you want to write a program that says: Go there, look around, take care
and get back, then you need a good programmer. 

>I realize this is a sketchy and even inaccurate description of just some of 
>the complications of artificial intelligence.  And the purpose of our 
>discussion is to build a starship that will take us to TC.  But needless to 
>say, a computer would have lost the Apollo 13 mission because it was a dead 
>ship, with no power to even run the guidance computers.   So even if the 
>computers had thought to use the LEM to correct the ship's course, it 
>wouldn't have been able to carry that decision through for lack of power 
>onboard.

You aren't writing about AI, but about an expert system. (the difference is
that AI can make interconnections)

>Why worry about a dying drone when you have a 
>million others to handle its job?  Fortunately, this system doesn't apply to 
>human societies where we do bother to heal the sick.

The strength of us is that we are all different. Making us so different
takes many years. When you would simply preprogram us, we would all make the
same mistakes and die out quickly. (This isn't a complete arguement, but I
hope it makes you see that mass AI production may not be as nice as you think).

>The Argosy design that I have in mind is, in fact, a maser driven sail 
>attached to a ion rocket with a habitat that carries colonists and explorers 
>to a starsystem already visited by Pathfinding/Pathmaking robots.  Those 
>robots are assumed to have set up a maser system for decelerating the ship. 
> This solves what has always been our biggest problem, stopping.  

Of course you still need to stop the robots (may be easier because their
mass is smaller).

Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 15:11:22 +0100

To Kelly,

>>OK, unfortunately (as you stated below) the paper didn't show all there was,
>>your numbers only showed a decrease of mass for lower exhaust-velocities.
>>I found out that for high exhaust speed the mass goes up because of the
>>extra kinetic energy (could be overcome by beaming) and for lower speeds the
>>mass goes up too, because of the waste of energy (ie. using fusion fuel as
>>reaction mass).
>
>I'm not sure I follow this.  By waste energy are you implying the same
>specific impulse ratio could be developed with lower fuel to reaction mass
>ratios?

I assume that with "impulse ratio" you mean "impulse velocity". Than the
answer is yes.
So after "extracting" the energy of the fusion fuel, you could better dump
the excess mass without accelerating it! (Because if you accelerate it the
other mass could be accelerated less)

>>So one needs to find the valley between the (ever rising) hills.
>>The formula to do this:
>>
>>  BestG:=1+1/(f-1);                     (the relativistic gamma)
>>  BestV:=c*Sqrt(Sqr(BestG)-1)/BestG     (the accompanying velcity)
>>
>>The optimum exhaust-velocity is only dependent on the mass:energy ratio of
>>the fuel (thus not on the final velocity).
>>
>> f   exhaust velocity (in c)
>>200        0.09987
>>250        0.08935
>>300        0.08158
>>350        0.07554
>>400        0.07067
>>450        0.06663
>>500        0.06321
>>
>>(f is the mass:energy ratio (about 270 is the best for fusion untill now))
>>
>>The next table shows the ship:fuel ratios needed to accelerate upto the
>>final velocities that vary horizontally. Vertically the energy:mass ratios
>>of the fuel are varied.
>>Every time the optimal exhaust speed is used (this can be looked up in the
>>previous table).
>>
>>                  End velocity -->
>>      0.10      0.20      0.30      0.40    0.50    0.60    0.70
>>200     2.7       7.6      22.2      69.5     244    1032    5906
>>250     3.1       9.7      31.9     114.6     467    2338   16422
>>300     3.4      12.0      44.4     180.0     839    4896   41401
>>350     3.8      14.6      60.2     272.7    1439    9662   96907
>>400     4.1      17.6      79.8     401.4    2376   18191  213876
>>450     4.5      21.0     104.1     577.2    3805   32958  449882
>>500     4.9      24.7     133.8     813.9    5941   57820  908988
>> ^
>> +--- Energy:mass ratio of the (fusion) fuel
>>
>>
>
>Mass energy ration of what?  Kinetic energy to mass?  Thermal energy to
>mass? etc...

* Mass:energy ratio shows what part of the mass of a fuel can be turned into
energy. For a matter & anti-matter mix all mass can be turned into energy
and thus gives a ratio 1:1. For fusion fuel only about 1/300 part of the
total mass can be converted to energy so that means a ratio of 1:300.
Note. I've defined f as total mass divided by energy mass (f=mass/energy),
this way you always get ratios bigger than or equal to 1.

* Fuel:Ship ratio is clear I think, it shows what part of the total mass of
the starship is used for fuel and what is used for habitation etc.

>Your table apears to show that I could get lower ship to fuel mass ratios
>than I expected.

Yes, that what I'm trying to tell everybody for the last week. :)

If we content ourselves with a final velocity of 0.2c, we can accelerate and
decelerate having a total fuel:ship ratio of 12*12=144. (f=300) (Ofcourse we
still need to mine fuel for the homeward trip)
If we assume we are beamed away (and have to decelerate by ourselves) while
using the same fuel:ship ratio of 144 then we can decelerate from a velocity
of 0.385c (not in the tables)


Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Core memory
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 15:11:43 +0100

> > Why doesn't the magnetic field in the ferrite core degrade? (I assume the
> > ferrite has some resistance.)
>
>Have you ever known other magnets to degrade?  Once magnetized, a
>material won't demagnetize unless exposed to heat above its Curie point
>or another sufficiently strong magnetic field.

Oh, now I understand, you create a permanent magnetic field just like
magnetic discs and tapes. (I though you created a current in the core) So in
fact the cores don't need to be closed completely.

Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Sail numbers
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 15:11:47 +0100

To Kevin,

>1) the sail is the heaviest part of the ship.  Even at 50 g/m^2, and 100 
>Km in radius, the sail alone approaches my original MARS design (now a 
>smoking ruin ;( )

Hmmm, this is indeed fascinating (as mr. Spock says). I guess, I never
really thought of it before. (Although 5E5 kg for the ship seems a little
bit too small.)

>3) Stress is miniscule  I don't where you guys have been getitng your 
>stress numbers, but they are out of whack.

I'm not sure how I did it either.

>5) Thermal load is a big problem.  750 KW on .05 Kg is a big worry.
>I have not calculated the limiting temperature yet, but I am hopeful that 
>titanium alloy will stand up to the load.  To do this model, I will use 
>heat capacity and blackbody radiation equation.  I do not have time right 
>now, but expect it soon.

Hmmm, this sounds troublesome, maybe we need to decrease the density of the
beam.
If you've calculated it could you add some formulas so that I can check it?


Timothy

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From: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
To: Timothy van der Linden 
CC: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: New Design Team Member
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 09:27:58 -0500

I got this via email.  Thought he might be interested
in the continuing discussions.  Please add him to your
"To:" lists.  Thanks!

-David

===============================================================

Subject: FYI: Rex Finke's Curriculum Vitae 
  Date:  Mon, 11 Mar 1996 22:03:10 -0500 
  From:  DotarSojat@aol.com
    To:  David@interworld.com


TO:   David Levine                                March 11, 1996
FROM: Rex Finke

     In view of the possibilities that 1) you might find a need
for support in an area in which I have experience, or 2) you
might like to know where I'm coming from when I send in a 
comment
on some topic or activity of the Starship Design Project, I am
providing you with my curriculum vitae, as follows--
      
REINALD G. (REX) FINKE
  

SPECIALTIES
  Systems Analysis/Modeling, Flight Mechanics, Propulsion, Heat
     Transfer

EDUCATION
  A.B., Astronomy and Physics, 1949; M.A., Physics, 1951, Ph.D.,
     Nuclear Physics, 1954; UC Berkeley

SELECTED EXPERIENCE
  Teaching Assistant, Physics, UC Berkeley, 1949-50
  Operation and maintenance of 32-MeV proton linear accelerator,
     UCRL Berkeley, 1950-54
  Fast photography for high-explosives/nuclear-explosives 
testing,
     UCRL Livermore/Nevada, 1954-55
  Nuclear rocket (Project Rover) design, UCRL Livermore, 1955-57
  Nuclear ramjet (Project Pluto) design, UCRL Livermore, 1957-62
  Nuclear reactor operation, UCRL Livermore(Nevada), 1959-62
  Thermonuclear-explosives design, UCRL Livermore, 1961
  Orion pusher-plate temperature calculation, IDA, 1962
  Space station conceptual design, IDA, 1963-65
  Reusable launch vehicle conceptual design, IDA, 1964-70
  Space Shuttle design, IDA, 1969-71
  Nuclear-propulsion analysis for lunar mission, IDA, 1970
  Launch-vehicle (principally Shuttle) performance, operations
     and cost analyses, IDA, 1973-88, 1991
  Beam-weapons analyses, IDA, 1974-86, 1995
  Strategic Defense Initiative analyses, IDA, 1983-92
  Relativistic mechanics for interstellar flight, 1987-present
  Mars-mission nuclear-propulsion analysis, 1990-91
  Retired 1992; presently Adjunct Staff Member, IDA
  Author or co-author of 14 open and 75 limited-distribution
     publications
  Fellow, American Astronautical Society (conferred 1986)

From popserver Tue Mar 12 18:36:19 GMT 1996
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Another piece of the puzzle?
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 09:29:21 -0500

At 3:11 PM 3/12/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>To Kelly,
>
>>>Do you know the name of such materials?
>>>Why are you so sure these materials aren't easely made?
>>
>>Some crystals twist the polarization of light that shines through it.
>>Don't know about the power absorbtion thou.
>
>Yes, now that you say it, I can remember, the amount of rotation depends on
>the length of the crystal.

Sounds right.  About all I remember for sure is that the polorized pictures
looked cool.

>===============================================================================
>
>>>Yes, it would reflect or let through only one polarisation. But I still need
>>>a  polarization changer at the retro-mirror.
>>>So one piece is already there, now the other one...
>>
>>Sounds like the reflector would be a series of angular reflectors.  They
>>would reflect the beam a couple of times at angles that would twist the
>>polorization before returning it.
>
>With angular reflector you mean a mirror that reflects with an angle unequal
>to 180 degrees?
>
>If I'm informed right, reflection will (in the end) not give you any
>rotation the polarization.

I beleave that the polorization is changed when it reflects off a flat
surface.  I.E. Light or radio waves are poloried by reflecting off water or
glass at an angle.  (A serious problem for TV transmitters in the land of
skyscrapers!)  If you made the reflector out of a lot of piramid like
reflectors aranged at the right angle it should allow you to change the
polorization angle by reflection.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 09:45:20 -0500

At 3:11 PM 3/12/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>To Kelly,
>
>>>OK, unfortunately (as you stated below) the paper didn't show all there was,
>>>your numbers only showed a decrease of mass for lower exhaust-velocities.
>>>I found out that for high exhaust speed the mass goes up because of the
>>>extra kinetic energy (could be overcome by beaming) and for lower speeds the
>>>mass goes up too, because of the waste of energy (ie. using fusion fuel as
>>>reaction mass).
>>
>>I'm not sure I follow this.  By waste energy are you implying the same
>>specific impulse ratio could be developed with lower fuel to reaction mass
>>ratios?
>
>I assume that with "impulse ratio" you mean "impulse velocity". Than the
>answer is yes.
>So after "extracting" the energy of the fusion fuel, you could better dump
>the excess mass without accelerating it! (Because if you accelerate it the
>other mass could be accelerated less)

Actually no.  Specific impulse is a term with rockets that tells how much
thrust you can get out of a mass of reaction mass or fuel.  (in a normal
rocket they are the same.)  For example a pound of hydrogen and oxegen
pumped into a shuttle motor generates about 455 pound secounds of thrust.
My numbers showed that unless the specific impulse were geting out of the
Explorer classes engines is over 2,000,000 we don't get to go.  So I was
woundering is using the fusion fuel directly would make more or less
performance mass sence then mixing it in with extra reaction mass, or
converting the power to electricity that accelerates a smaller reaction
mass in a lineac?  Given that the energy in the fusion reactors was all
turned into kinetic energy in the exaust plasma, I had assumed using it
directly would be most efficent.

>>>So one needs to find the valley between the (ever rising) hills.
>>>The formula to do this:
>>>
>>>  BestG:=1+1/(f-1);                     (the relativistic gamma)
>>>  BestV:=c*Sqrt(Sqr(BestG)-1)/BestG     (the accompanying velcity)
>>>
>>>The optimum exhaust-velocity is only dependent on the mass:energy ratio of
>>>the fuel (thus not on the final velocity).
>>>
>>> f   exhaust velocity (in c)
>>>200        0.09987
>>>250        0.08935
>>>300        0.08158
>>>350        0.07554
>>>400        0.07067
>>>450        0.06663
>>>500        0.06321
>>>
>>>(f is the mass:energy ratio (about 270 is the best for fusion untill now))
>>>
>>>The next table shows the ship:fuel ratios needed to accelerate upto the
>>>final velocities that vary horizontally. Vertically the energy:mass ratios
>>>of the fuel are varied.
>>>Every time the optimal exhaust speed is used (this can be looked up in the
>>>previous table).
>>>
>>>                  End velocity -->
>>>      0.10      0.20      0.30      0.40    0.50    0.60    0.70
>>>200     2.7       7.6      22.2      69.5     244    1032    5906
>>>250     3.1       9.7      31.9     114.6     467    2338   16422
>>>300     3.4      12.0      44.4     180.0     839    4896   41401
>>>350     3.8      14.6      60.2     272.7    1439    9662   96907
>>>400     4.1      17.6      79.8     401.4    2376   18191  213876
>>>450     4.5      21.0     104.1     577.2    3805   32958  449882
>>>500     4.9      24.7     133.8     813.9    5941   57820  908988
>>> ^
>>> +--- Energy:mass ratio of the (fusion) fuel
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Mass energy ration of what?  Kinetic energy to mass?  Thermal energy to
>>mass? etc...
>
>* Mass:energy ratio shows what part of the mass of a fuel can be turned into
>energy. For a matter & anti-matter mix all mass can be turned into energy
>and thus gives a ratio 1:1. For fusion fuel only about 1/300 part of the
>total mass can be converted to energy so that means a ratio of 1:300.
>Note. I've defined f as total mass divided by energy mass (f=mass/energy),
>this way you always get ratios bigger than or equal to 1.
>
>* Fuel:Ship ratio is clear I think, it shows what part of the total mass of
>the starship is used for fuel and what is used for habitation etc.
>
>>Your table apears to show that I could get lower ship to fuel mass ratios
>>than I expected.
>
>Yes, that what I'm trying to tell everybody for the last week. :)
>
>If we content ourselves with a final velocity of 0.2c, we can accelerate and
>decelerate having a total fuel:ship ratio of 12*12=144. (f=300) (Ofcourse we
>still need to mine fuel for the homeward trip)
>If we assume we are beamed away (and have to decelerate by ourselves) while
>using the same fuel:ship ratio of 144 then we can decelerate from a velocity
>of 0.385c (not in the tables)
>
>
>Tim


Great, 144 is probably impractical.  But it sounds like stoping from
..33c-.36c is possible.  Assuming you can find the fuel!

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
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         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Argosy Mission Overhaul
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 09:51:21 -0500

At 3:11 PM 3/12/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>To Brian,
>
>>>Tim
>>>We "know" AI-robots could make anything work but that solution would be a
>>bit >too simple, unless we could come up with a rough design for such kind
>>of >robot.
>>
>>Actually, I'm assuming that robots would have limits based on their
>>programming.  I imagine that the first working, completely automated systems
>>would, in some ways, be less efficient in computer controled hands than if
>>humans were doing the same job.  For example: how do you think computers and
>>robots would have handled the job of bringing home the  Apollo 13 crew?
>
>In my opinion such robots are intelligent or they aren't (no way between).
>Say that you have figured out a machine with an IQ of 40. Then you could
>probably link them up in such a way that 10 of them together would have an
>IQ of 100.

Have you ever tried putting a room full of morons together and expect them
to do one inteligent persons work?  It doesn't work.  Mobs tend to be less
equivelent then the sum of their parts.  Given that we have no idea on how
to make an A.I. work its hard to tell what it could do, or what its
limitations would be.  It could be far more inteligent than humamans, or be
an idiot savant.  Great at one thing, and hopeless in general.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Explorer Power Gain Problem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 09:55:32 -0500

At 3:11 PM 3/12/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>To Brian,
>
>>>I can't confirm this, but I do know the energy numbers I worked out in the
>>>Explorer page were sloppy.
>>
>>Brian
>>Does ANYONE know the proper equations?  I'll try to find time to ask my
>>phsyics professor.
>
>I do know them, but also have noticed that it is potentially dangerous to
>throw them in the ring. ;)
>
>The formula in Kellies Explorer page is correct. The same thing you asked
>about that 5 m/s, I asked Kelly some long time ago (so long that he probably
>doesn't remember it anymore (no offence)).
>
>Timothy


Lost in the mists of time.  But yes I remember you an Zenon were .. ah,
critical, of my math.

By the way.  It would be Kelly's Explorer page, not Kellies.   The 's at
the end of a name is the proper english form.  As you've no doubt noticed I
take spelling very seriously.  ;)

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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Subject: Re: Core memory
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 09:57:00 -0500

At 3:11 PM 3/12/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>> > Why doesn't the magnetic field in the ferrite core degrade? (I assume the
>> > ferrite has some resistance.)
>>
>>Have you ever known other magnets to degrade?  Once magnetized, a
>>material won't demagnetize unless exposed to heat above its Curie point
>>or another sufficiently strong magnetic field.
>
>Oh, now I understand, you create a permanent magnetic field just like
>magnetic discs and tapes. (I though you created a current in the core) So in
>fact the cores don't need to be closed completely.
>
>Tim


Yeah, but of you don't close them they fall of the wires.  ;)

It works but its an unbeleavably cumbersom system.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
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Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:02:51 -0500

At 3:11 PM 3/12/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>Goodmorning Kelly,
>
>>>OK, one thing though, wouldn't the aiming of the laser-tugs not be too
>>>diffucult? You need to aim with several meter accuracy on an object moving
>>>with velocities ranging upto 0.3c
>>
>>Do you mean you think it would be difficult, or wouldn't be?
>
>Sorry, I meant that it would be difficult.
>
>>It might be very difficult, but I think the precision is possible.  (Not
>>that I have any experence to back that up.)  At least the angle would be
>>shallow.
>
>Yes, that shallow angle makes it easier. But why not use one single laser?
>That lases could be just near the launch-site, just like when used in any of
>the Asimov designs.
>
>Timothy

I wanted to keep the range low.  Precisly stearing a canister with a laser
over 15 light minuttes away seemed to be pushing the likely accuracy and
beam convergence.  Besides having it pass between other laser tugs would
make corse corrections easier.  And multiple beams could accelerate
multiple canisters at once.

I notice no one has had the nerve to work up reaction mass ratios for a
system with a spec impulse of probably 2-4 thousand?  I haven't had the
nerve eaither.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
Cc: Timothy van der Linden ,
        KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: New Design Team Member
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:08:24 -0500

At 9:27 AM 3/12/96, David Levine wrote:
>I got this via email.  Thought he might be interested
>in the continuing discussions.  Please add him to your
>"To:" lists.  Thanks!
>
>-David
>
>===============================================================
>
>Subject: FYI: Rex Finke's Curriculum Vitae
>  Date:  Mon, 11 Mar 1996 22:03:10 -0500
>  From:  DotarSojat@aol.com
>    To:  David@interworld.com
>
>
>TO:   David Levine                                March 11, 1996
>FROM: Rex Finke
>
>     In view of the possibilities that 1) you might find a need
>for support in an area in which I have experience, or 2) you
>might like to know where I'm coming from when I send in a
>comment
>on some topic or activity of the Starship Design Project, I am
>providing you with my curriculum vitae, as follows--
>
>REINALD G. (REX) FINKE
>  
>
>SPECIALTIES
>  Systems Analysis/Modeling, Flight Mechanics, Propulsion, Heat
>     Transfer
>
>EDUCATION
>  A.B., Astronomy and Physics, 1949; M.A., Physics, 1951, Ph.D.,
>     Nuclear Physics, 1954; UC Berkeley
>
>SELECTED EXPERIENCE
>  Teaching Assistant, Physics, UC Berkeley, 1949-50
>  Operation and maintenance of 32-MeV proton linear accelerator,
>     UCRL Berkeley, 1950-54
>  Fast photography for high-explosives/nuclear-explosives
>testing,
>     UCRL Livermore/Nevada, 1954-55
>  Nuclear rocket (Project Rover) design, UCRL Livermore, 1955-57
>  Nuclear ramjet (Project Pluto) design, UCRL Livermore, 1957-62
>  Nuclear reactor operation, UCRL Livermore(Nevada), 1959-62
>  Thermonuclear-explosives design, UCRL Livermore, 1961
>  Orion pusher-plate temperature calculation, IDA, 1962
>  Space station conceptual design, IDA, 1963-65
>  Reusable launch vehicle conceptual design, IDA, 1964-70
>  Space Shuttle design, IDA, 1969-71
>  Nuclear-propulsion analysis for lunar mission, IDA, 1970
>  Launch-vehicle (principally Shuttle) performance, operations
>     and cost analyses, IDA, 1973-88, 1991
>  Beam-weapons analyses, IDA, 1974-86, 1995
>  Strategic Defense Initiative analyses, IDA, 1983-92
>  Relativistic mechanics for interstellar flight, 1987-present
>  Mars-mission nuclear-propulsion analysis, 1990-91
>  Retired 1992; presently Adjunct Staff Member, IDA
>  Author or co-author of 14 open and 75 limited-distribution
>     publications
>  Fellow, American Astronautical Society (conferred 1986)


Woah!  How much do we have to pay him!

Welcome to mess Rex.

Kelly Starks


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Tue Mar 12 18:36:37 GMT 1996
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	["2780" "Tue" "12" "March" "1996" "10:10:33" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "79" "Re: New Design Team Member" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
Cc: Timothy van der Linden ,
        KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: New Design Team Member
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:10:33 -0500

At 9:27 AM 3/12/96, David Levine wrote:
>I got this via email.  Thought he might be interested
>in the continuing discussions.  Please add him to your
>"To:" lists.  Thanks!
>
>-David
>
>===============================================================
>
>Subject: FYI: Rex Finke's Curriculum Vitae
>  Date:  Mon, 11 Mar 1996 22:03:10 -0500
>  From:  DotarSojat@aol.com
>    To:  David@interworld.com
>
>
>TO:   David Levine                                March 11, 1996
>FROM: Rex Finke
>
>     In view of the possibilities that 1) you might find a need
>for support in an area in which I have experience, or 2) you
>might like to know where I'm coming from when I send in a
>comment
>on some topic or activity of the Starship Design Project, I am
>providing you with my curriculum vitae, as follows--
>
>REINALD G. (REX) FINKE
>  
>
>SPECIALTIES
>  Systems Analysis/Modeling, Flight Mechanics, Propulsion, Heat
>     Transfer
>
>EDUCATION
>  A.B., Astronomy and Physics, 1949; M.A., Physics, 1951, Ph.D.,
>     Nuclear Physics, 1954; UC Berkeley
>
>SELECTED EXPERIENCE
>  Teaching Assistant, Physics, UC Berkeley, 1949-50
>  Operation and maintenance of 32-MeV proton linear accelerator,
>     UCRL Berkeley, 1950-54
>  Fast photography for high-explosives/nuclear-explosives
>testing,
>     UCRL Livermore/Nevada, 1954-55
>  Nuclear rocket (Project Rover) design, UCRL Livermore, 1955-57
>  Nuclear ramjet (Project Pluto) design, UCRL Livermore, 1957-62
>  Nuclear reactor operation, UCRL Livermore(Nevada), 1959-62
>  Thermonuclear-explosives design, UCRL Livermore, 1961
>  Orion pusher-plate temperature calculation, IDA, 1962
>  Space station conceptual design, IDA, 1963-65
>  Reusable launch vehicle conceptual design, IDA, 1964-70
>  Space Shuttle design, IDA, 1969-71
>  Nuclear-propulsion analysis for lunar mission, IDA, 1970
>  Launch-vehicle (principally Shuttle) performance, operations
>     and cost analyses, IDA, 1973-88, 1991
>  Beam-weapons analyses, IDA, 1974-86, 1995
>  Strategic Defense Initiative analyses, IDA, 1983-92
>  Relativistic mechanics for interstellar flight, 1987-present
>  Mars-mission nuclear-propulsion analysis, 1990-91
>  Retired 1992; presently Adjunct Staff Member, IDA
>  Author or co-author of 14 open and 75 limited-distribution
>     publications
>  Fellow, American Astronautical Society (conferred 1986)


P.S.
Dave, what have you forwarded to him of our recent correspondence?

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Tue Mar 12 18:36:39 GMT 1996
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	["723" "Tue" "12" "March" "1996" "09:12:40" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "17" "Computer meltdown  ;-(" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: interstellar drive group , David@interworld.com,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Computer meltdown  ;-(
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 09:12:40 -0600 (CST)


Uh OH!

I'm having severe computer  Hardware/Software problems.  (I'm replying to 
you all from a university computer.)  My ability to respond in a timely 
fashion, as well as my total time to respond will probably be severely 
affected.  Tim wrote me a private e-mail about the sail melting, I asked 
him to check on one formula before posting it.  You can expect me to be 
unresponsive for about two to three days, while I swap out a hard drive, 
and re-install my operating system.   hopefully my video RAM is not 
toasted, but I have little hope  :(  I may respond to selected e-mail's 
either by coming to the university or telneting in from work.  (and here 
i was lecturing Kelly about wasted time.  ;)  )


Kevin


From popserver Tue Mar 12 18:36:42 GMT 1996
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	["1314" "Tue" "12" "March" "1996" "10:30:05" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "35" "Re: Computer meltdown  ;-(" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Kevin C Houston 
Cc: interstellar drive group , David@interworld.com,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re: Computer meltdown  ;-(
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:30:05 -0500

At 9:12 AM 3/12/96, Kevin C Houston wrote:
>Uh OH!
>
>I'm having severe computer  Hardware/Software problems.  (I'm replying to
>you all from a university computer.)  My ability to respond in a timely
>fashion, as well as my total time to respond will probably be severely
>affected.  Tim wrote me a private e-mail about the sail melting, I asked
>him to check on one formula before posting it.  You can expect me to be
>unresponsive for about two to three days, while I swap out a hard drive,
>and re-install my operating system.   hopefully my video RAM is not
>toasted, but I have little hope  :(  I may respond to selected e-mail's
>either by coming to the university or telneting in from work.  (and here
>i was lecturing Kelly about wasted time.  ;)  )
>
>
>Kevin

I think the avalance from Brian did it.  Disk fry via E-mail.  Lets all
blame Brian.  

Well at least hard drives are very cheap now a days.  It could have been
something expensive like RAM or a monitor.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Tue Mar 12 18:36:47 GMT 1996
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From: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
CC: Timothy van der Linden ,
        KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: New Design Team Member
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:42:05 -0500

Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
> Dave, what have you forwarded to him of our recent correspondence?
> 
> Kelly

Um, nothing.  Instead of forwarding huge loads of
mail, I thought a summary might have been better.  But
most of this is technically above me...  Anyone want
to give it a crack?

David

From popserver Tue Mar 12 18:36:50 GMT 1996
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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Timothy van der Linden ,
        KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
         zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: New Design Team Member
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:53:55 -0500

At 10:42 AM 3/12/96, David Levine wrote:
>Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>> Dave, what have you forwarded to him of our recent correspondence?
>>
>> Kelly
>
>Um, nothing.  Instead of forwarding huge loads of
>mail, I thought a summary might have been better.  But
>most of this is technically above me...  Anyone want
>to give it a crack?
>
>David


I could forward the text of my summary web pages.  They are about as close
to a FAQ sheet as we have, and everyone else can fill in the blanks.

Any complaints?

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Tue Mar 12 19:19:56 GMT 1996
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	["1003" "Tue" "12" "March" "1996" "11:18:34" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "22" "Re: Core memory" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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In-Reply-To: <199603121412.AA18640@student.utwente.nl>
References: <199603121412.AA18640@student.utwente.nl>
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Core memory
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 11:18:34 -0800

Timothy van der Linden writes:
 > > > Why doesn't the magnetic field in the ferrite core degrade? (I assume the
 > > > ferrite has some resistance.)
 > >
 > >Have you ever known other magnets to degrade?  Once magnetized, a
 > >material won't demagnetize unless exposed to heat above its Curie point
 > >or another sufficiently strong magnetic field.
 > 
 > Oh, now I understand, you create a permanent magnetic field just like
 > magnetic discs and tapes. (I though you created a current in the core) So in
 > fact the cores don't need to be closed completely.
 > 
 > Tim

The core is in essence just a lump of magnetizable material; they were
generally made toroidal because it was easiest to string them that way.

There were some designs for magnetic memory that didn't use cores, but
(if I recall correctly) used spots of magnetic material sandwiched
between two layers of parallel conductors.  And even more exotic memory
hardware has existed -- ever heard of mecury delay lines?  Williams
tubes?

From popserver Tue Mar 12 19:43:36 GMT 1996
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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Steve VanDevender 
Cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden),
        KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Core memory
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:36:37 -0500

At 11:18 AM 3/12/96, Steve VanDevender wrote:
>Timothy van der Linden writes:
> > > > Why doesn't the magnetic field in the ferrite core degrade? (I
>assume the
> > > > ferrite has some resistance.)
> > >
> > >Have you ever known other magnets to degrade?  Once magnetized, a
> > >material won't demagnetize unless exposed to heat above its Curie point
> > >or another sufficiently strong magnetic field.
> >
> > Oh, now I understand, you create a permanent magnetic field just like
> > magnetic discs and tapes. (I though you created a current in the core) So in
> > fact the cores don't need to be closed completely.
> >
> > Tim
>
>The core is in essence just a lump of magnetizable material; they were
>generally made toroidal because it was easiest to string them that way.
>
>There were some designs for magnetic memory that didn't use cores, but
>(if I recall correctly) used spots of magnetic material sandwiched
>between two layers of parallel conductors.  And even more exotic memory
>hardware has existed -- ever heard of mecury delay lines?  Williams
>tubes?

Magnetic bubbles?


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Timothy van der Linden ,
        KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
         zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Explorer class ships fuel and power cycle
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 15:35:12 -0500

At 10:42 AM 3/12/96, David Levine wrote:
>Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>> Dave, what have you forwarded to him of our recent correspondence?
>>
>> Kelly
>
>Um, nothing.  Instead of forwarding huge loads of
>mail, I thought a summary might have been better.  But
>most of this is technically above me...  Anyone want
>to give it a crack?
>
>David




Primary Drive System:
Externally Fueled Fusion Rocket
=46all 1995



Out of the likely ashes of my Multi-cycle Ram Augmented Interstellar Ramjet
(RAIR) drive, I kept one solid piece.  The idea of launching fuel to the
ship from a fixed launcher in Sol (our home starsystem).  The fuel/reaction
mass mixtures could be launched as anything from aspirin sized pellets, to
truck sized expendable mini-tankers.  The former could be scooped up and
fused as is, the later could be docked and off loaded.

I'm not going to go into a detailed analysis of the pros and cons of the
different systems, but their are a lot of pros and cons for each.  A stream
of pellets would be easier to launch and offer less impact danger to the
ship.  But the pellets would be harder to keep together at a distance from
the launcher, and harder for the ship to recover.  The ship would need a
ramscoop or something to scoop up its fuel, and when the packets drifted
too far to the sides, the ship couldn't pick them up.

Mini-tankers on the other hand could use onboard rockets to maneuver to
meet the ship.  Possibly the ship could beam power to them (via lasers or
microwaves) that could be used to drive the tankers attitude rockets, and
order it to maneuver in front of the ship for pick up.  Or a system like
passive laser launchers could be used (which is discussed below).  These
would just require the tanker to have a large block of reaction mass on its
backside.  The ship could boost, and steer the tankers remotely using
lasers; without any equipment on the tankers.  Either way the ship could
catch fuel tankers that had drifted thousands, possibly tens of thousands
of miles off to the side of the ships flight path.  Far more then possible
with a megnetic scoop system.

Either way an externally feed system would mean that, the ship wouldn't
need to carry the tremendous tonnage of fuel and reaction mass it would
need for the flight.  Launched acceleration fuel and reaction would only be
carried by the ship from the time it entered the holding tanks, to the time
it was burned.  How this would work in each phase of the flight is
described below




Laser fuel launchers.


Assume the average fuel canister is the size of a 6 meter in diameter
cylinder about 5 meters long.  I think that should hold about a hundred
tons of fusion fuel (6Li?) but of course that would vary with the type of
fuel.  This canister is heavily reinforced (you'll see why), and the ends
are covered in a thick plug of reaction mass (could be anything from fiber
reinforced ice, to solid Kevlar).  A floating laser 'tug' fires a laser at
this plug of reaction mass.  One quick pulse to vaporize a layer off the
bottom.  Then a heavy pulse to turn the vapor to super heated plasma.
I.E..  a pulsed rocket.  Keep repeating these cycle up a couple hundred
times a second, and you have a laser rocket.  Specific impulse is limited
by the type of reaction mass and the heat the laser brings it to.

Course corrections are handled in two ways.  The first involves aiming the
beam to one side of the base, rather than in the center.  The uneven thrust
will turn the canister, and subsequent pulses will thrust along the new
vector.  Precise course changes are handeled by burning a bit of reaction
mass off the side of a canister as it passes a laser tug.  This would give
precicly controled lateral thrust.

Note the canister has no internal systems.  Range is limited by the optical
precision of the laser.  Given what a Hubble telescope can do over
interstellar ranges.  I'll assume the system can aim acceptably out to
100,000 miles.  So, if you station a laser tug every 100,000 miles or so.
The tugs can take turns boosting a string of canisters.  Given orbital
mechanics.  (No stable orbits that can keep you in a straight line.)  They
will have to be continuously boosting themselves around to stay acceptably
close to the 'Launcher' track.  (The exact position of the tugs isn't
important, as long as they know exactly where they and the canisters are.)

Given this system the 'launcher' can be as long as the number of tugs, or
as you need at the moment.  If you space the tugs out every 60,000 miles
for 100,000,000 kilometers (about a 1,000 tugs spaced from here to Mars.)
The average G load on a canister exiting at a speed of 1/3rd the speed of
light, is 100,000 m/s^2, or about 100,000 G's.  Which seems acceptable for
a solid block of reinforced metal and whatever.

The major problems with this system are the amount of reaction mass, and
power, nessisary to reach the desired maximum speeds may be prohibative.
So a laser sail may be nessisary for the primary speed boost.





Laser fuel Scoop.


The ship uses a variation of the fuel launcher to catch the fuel canisters.
The ship uses bow lasers that fire on the back of the canister to boost it
forward and steer it onto the ships course vector.  Assuming the laser
booster can function hitting the base at over 60 degrees off the canisters
axis, and can hit the target at 100,000 km.  The ship can 'catch' (I.e.
Stear to itself) a fuel canister over 80,000 km off to the side.  Far
better than the scoop systems we were considering.  Which could increase
the range at which the ship can be externally fueled.  (Hopefully out to
about 3,000 au's, since it would take that far for the ship to boost to
1/3rd c.)

If we assume a fusion fuel with a specific impulse of 2 million (we might
even get to 2,400,000 if we push it) the ship would need to receive 5 times
its weight in fuel to boost it to 1/3rd of light speed (100,000,000 m/s).
If the canister and its reaction mass is added into the ships budget it
might be able to use less fusion fuel (thou more total mass) to get to same
speed.




Accelerating out of Sol, our star system.


The ship would be heavy.  Not only with the weight of its own systems and
structure, but food and equipment for the mission, exploration equipment,
the crew and their homes; and weighing dozens of times all the rest
combined, deceleration fuel (See fusion rocket mass tables).  The ships
maximum speed is limited by deceleration (braking) fuel it can carry.
Given the years of flight time involved, every effort will be made to load
the ship with fuel.

Pulling out of Our star system, Sol, the ship will accelerate at one ship
G, accelerating 10 meters per second, per second.  An orbiting set of laser
tugs will boost the fuel and extra reaction mass the ships motors will need
for this acceleration run.  The ship will be continuously picking up these
fuel packets, and feeding their contents into the fusion motors.  This will
continue until the ship reaches the maximum speed it can slow down from.
If the orbiting launcher can still get fuel within pickup range of the
ship.  Extra fuel can still be sent out to increase the breaking supply.
Possibly enough to extra fuel to allow the ship to accelerate a little
more, and cut down the long flight.

Because of the deceleration fuel limitation, it is unlikely that the ship
can get to more than a quarter or a third of the speed of light.  But
that's still a 100,000 kilometers per second.  The ship will need to
protect itself against impacts.  One of the simplest ideas is to push
several miles of charged dust ahead of the ship.  Ramming a cloud of
charged iron dust at 360,000,000 kilometers per hours will turn most
anything into ionized plasma.  Which can be shoved ahead of the ship, or
off to the sides, by the charges dust cloud handler.  Effectively most
anything you run into at speed will become more shielding dust.




Decelerating into the target star system.

Now for the bad news - you have to slow down.  We can't pre-load a
deceleration course track into the target star with fuel across
interstellar distances.  So your stuck with the fuel you brought along.
Unless we can come up with a neat magnetic trick to brake the ship in empty
space (sorry no luck), its fire up the reactors and put engines into
reverse.  As the tables in fusion rocket shows, even slowing down from
1/3rd light speed would force the ship to carry 50 - 100 times its weight
in fuel.



Cruising around the target star system

At low speed interplanetary runs, the drive works like a conventional
fusion rocket burning stored fuel and reaction mass.  But the engines that
could bairly get us across interstellar space.  Can now make this huge ship
commute around the confines of a starsystem with ease.  A ten hour burn of
the main engines will would get you from Earth to Jupiter in about a month,
or Mars in a week.  A two day burn would get you to Jupiter in less than a
week.  Under four days of constant burn will get you to Mars.  About a week
of constant burn will get you to Jupiter.

Once in system the main ship will be shuttling surface teams, support
ships, and equipment around the star system.  It size and speed will allow
it to drag around tremendous loads of equipment or raw material.  It could
haul ore in to a construction site for a space colony.  Or to a fuel ore
processing facility.  (Note the crews will need to find enough fuel to get
the ship out of the starsystem.)  The starship will be carrying all the
exploration equipment and personnel to anywhere of interest in the
starsystem.




Accelerating out of the system to go home.




As the exploration phase comes to an end the support crew will be
processing the tremendous tonnage of fuel ore necessary to refuel the ship
for the boost to home.  This fuel could be carried on the ship.  All those
fuel tanks you emptied decelerating into the starsystem could be filled to
accelerate you back to home.  (Assuming you can find that much fuel!)  Or
(possibly) the crew could construct a fuel launcher system like the one the
ship used to leave home.

If an automated fuel launcher could be constructed in the target
starsystem, and the one near earth relied upon for braking fuel, the ship
could launch with her fuel tanks nearly empty.  Without the massive load of
fuel and exploration equipment the ship could weight a hundredth of its
loaded weight when it left Sol.  This would allow it to boost faster and to
higher speeds, even if the local fuel launcher could only launch (and the
local mines only supply) a tiny fraction of the fuel the Sol launcher
could, launched to a shorter range than the sol Launcher could.  With such
a lightly loaded ship, most of the drive systems would be unnessisary.
Allowing eiather further weight reduction of the ship, or allowing
tremendous redundancy in the equipment.

A automated launcher system would not only give this missions crew a much
shorter flight home.  It could allowing future missions into this star
system a much shorter round trip.  However an automated fuel launcher may
be too complicated for the crew to construct.  It would require the
construction of a thousand laser tugs and tens of thousands of the filled
fuel canisters.  But if enough construction gear can be brought along (or
some ultra-tech like self replicating machines is assumed), this would
greatly expand the amount of flights and exploration we could do to this
star system.




Decelerating into of Sol, our star system.

Since the ship can assume that the orbiting fuel launcher in Sol will be
turned on to help it slow down.  The ship wouldn't need to be heavily
loaded down with deceleration fuel.  By this point in the mission the ship
will be comparatively light.  Its fuel tanks empty.  Most of the food and
consumables consumed.  Probably most of the exploration gear left behind.
The ship will be coming home needing fuel.  Or will it?

The ships cruise speed will be a fraction of the speed of light, and it
will be flying straight toward the fuel launcher.  Obviously a nice neat
docking with the incoming fuel packets is out of the question.  You could
of course use the scoop lasers to steer a mini-tanker in front of the ship
and then explode the tanker.  The contents will slam into the ships forward
dust shield and be heated to plasma.  That plasma could be scooped up and
channeled into reactors to p=01=F3=FE@=00=00=00=00=00=00=18=10=01=F4f=95d=
 engines.  =01=EF=DB=C4s that
necessary?

Whatever blasts through the dust shield is going to be hot! The forward
electromagnetic barriers that shove the dust ahead of the ship are going to
be ramming into, and pushing forward, a plasma ball an eighth of a mile in
diameter and unknown length, ahead of the ship.  If their is any fusion
fuel in the mess, its probably going to be fusing out ahead of the ship.
Effectively the front of the ship will be an open fusion motor.  If the
launcher isn't firing fuel.  Whatever it is launching is still going to be
a hellish fireball ahead of the ship.  Effectively the ship will be
breaking against this artificially induced drag source.  Converting its
kinetic energy into heat in the plasma.

You wouldn't even need to run the reactors to keep the electromagnetic nose
shield charged.  Ducting a little of the plasma through a central core will
allow you to use the core as a generator.  Converting the energy of the
high speed plasma into electricity.  Or more correctly converting the ships
kinetic energy past the plasma stream into electricity.  If you want to get
tricky a magnetic 'wiggler' in the plasma stream could be used to convert
some of the energy into a forward laser.  The forward blast from a plasma
laser charged by the kinetic energy of a few hundred thousand tons of
charging starship should clear anything out of your path.  It certainly
will show everyone the explorers have returned home.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
Cc: David@interworld.com (David Levine),
         Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Timothy van der Linden ,
        KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
         zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Star drives we have argued about
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:15:32 -0500

At 3:35 PM 3/12/96, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>At 10:42 AM 3/12/96, David Levine wrote:
>>Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>>> Dave, what have you forwarded to him of our recent correspondence?
>>>
>>> Kelly
>>
>>Um, nothing.  Instead of forwarding huge loads of
>>mail, I thought a summary might have been better.  But
>>most of this is technically above me...  Anyone want
>>to give it a crack?
>>
>>David


Propulsion systems


This section describes the various types of interstellar drive systems we
have considered.



Bussard Interstellar Ramscoop

This is a relativly old idea first proposed by Robert Bussard.  The idea
was that a ship could scoop up interstellar hydrogen and use it for fuel.
Since it wouldn't need to carry any of its fuel, it could accelerate to
high speeds without concern for high fuel to weight ratio's.

Unfortunately, we don't really know what's in interstellar space, but we do
know we are in a very thin part of it due to a recent (by galactic
standards) supernova in our area.  We might need a scoop thousands of
kilometers across to fuel the motors for a decent sized ship (See below).
Even if we could do that (which is highly doubtfull), straight hydrogen is
very hard to fuse, and doesn't fuse as quickly as we might need to run the
ships motors.

All in all we have no real idea on how to make such a ship work; and if we
could get it to work, we'ld find it doesn't work very well in this part of
the galaxy.


Ram Scoop collector

The problem with using a scoop, is their isn't much in interstellar space
to scoop up.  We found papers that proposed1000 km diameter scoops that
only weighed 200 tons.  Assuming your moving at 1/3rd the speed of light
(100,000 kilometers per second) with a scoop area of 1000 km across
(pi*R^2=pi(50,000,000cm)^2 = 7.854E15 cm^2).  You'd be scooping up the mass
in 7.854 E25 cubic centimeters of space.

A big question is the composition of interstellar space.  A classic
assumption is that there is nothing but about 1 atom of hydrogen in a cubic
centimeter of space.  More recently, people guess it might be less than
..054 atoms per cubic centimeter or as many as 10.  Even more recently than
that (say the last few months) it has been proposed that there may be a lot
of long-chain carbon molecules in space.  Perhaps 60-200 atoms / molecules.
These small, dark, heavy molecules might be the missing 90-99% of the mass
of the galaxy (euphemistically called "dark matter").

So far, no one really knows.  This is unfortunate, because the composition
of the interstellar medium makes a hell of a difference in the design of a
RAIR-based starship.  Since we don't know one way or the other, let's
assume one atom per cubic centimeter at a proton mass of 1.673 E-27 Kg.  At
0.333c, using the above design figures, our 1000 km in diameter scoop,
scoops up a ram flow of 131.4 grams per second.  Thats about 345 tons a
month.  Given that the scoop weighs 200 tons (and you really want the mass
at slower speeds) this really isn't very helpfull.  So this stardrive goes
into the impractical bin.



Multi-cycle Ram Augmented Interstellar Ramjet (RAIR)
Spring 1995


A drive idea I came up with, and origionally used as the assumed drive
system for Explorer class starship design, was a multi-cycle Ram Augmented
Interstellar Ramjet (RAIR).  It would scoop up reaction mass from
interstellar space like a pure ram scoop, but it would only use it as
reaction mass, not fuel.  It would accelerate this mass megnetically or
electrostatically using power from onboard fussion reactors.  The scoop
system could simultaniously scoop up fuel thrown ahead of the ship by a
fixed launcher back in our solar system.  So it wouldn't be limited in
speed by the fuel it carried on-board.

If you could load a 1/4th light year track in space with enough fuel to
keep the ship accelerating at 1g, the ship would (after 6 months) exit the
track at half of light speed (0.5c).  The ship could then switch to
accelerating external scooped mass using power suppied by fuel stored
on-board, or (more likely)coast to the target star.  Assuming Alpha
Centauri, in the later case it would coast for about eight years.

At low speed interplanetary trips, the drive would work like a conventional
ion rocket or mass driver.  Stored reaction mass would be fead into the
electromagnetic or electro static accelerator core.  (Unlike nomal thermal
rockets, an ion thruster works more efficiently with heavy atom ions.  So
I'll assume we are storing iron for reaction mass.) Power would come from
fussion reactors runing off stored fuel.  Specific impulse varies depending
on the exaust velocity of the expended mass.

Now for the bad news - slowing down.  We can't pre-load the deceleration
course track with fuel at the target star because it would be virtually
impossible across interstellar distances.  Carrying enough fuel /
reaction-mass to decelerate at the target star would be prohibitive unless
the coast speed was kept low or another breaking force is found.
Getting out of the starsystem and back up to speed would also be a problem.
If we decelerated using stored fuel.  We know we can get back up to speed
by refueling in the target star system.  Slowing down when we get home
would eaither require another magnetic brake, or use of a fuel launcher at
earth.

This seems a clumsy and unreliable method, and given that this system is
just a usless as a pure RamScoop (there still isn't enough mass out there
to make it worth bothering to scoop up), this drive wouldn't work eiather.




Internally fueled Fusion Rocket.

A fusion powered rocket could cross interstellar distances, and is a near
term enough technology to be considered likely for the mid 21st century.
Unfortunately the amount of fuel it takes to get such a ship up to a usable
speed (at least 1/5th of light speed is necessary, a 1/3rd or more is
highly desirable.) can be far to much for a ship to carry.  Possibly
weighing hundreds to thousands of times as much as the rest of the ship.

The following table gives a breakdown of the fuel to ship mass ratios given
fusion rockets of various specific impulses.  Specific impulse is a
standard way of measuring the performance of a rocket engine.  For example
a specific impulse of 1,000,000 (which gives an exhaust velocity of
10,000,000m/s); means that the engine gives 1,000,000 pounds of thrust, for
one second, for every pound of fuel consumed.  A specific impulse of
1,000,000 has long been a standard fusion engine performance number.  (For
comparison the best chemical engines have a specific impulse of 455.)
Current designs might exceed 1,500,000, possibly more than 2,000,000.
Which is fortunate since you'ld need a specific impulse of over 2,000,000,
with a 100 to 1 thrust to weight ratio, to be able to use this system to
boost the ship  So we would need to assume that fusion engines are
developed, and advanced quite a bit before we could use them.

For example for a fusion rocket with a specific impulse of 1,000,000.  If
you wanted to use such an engine to accelerate a ship up to 1/6th the speed
of light.  The ship would need to carry 147 times its dry weight in fuel
and reaction mass.  If you want to get to 1/3rd the speed of light, it
would need to carry 22,000 times its weight in fuel!  Obviously no
realistic ship could do this.  Yet if we could build an engine with a
specific impulse of 2,500,000 1/3rd of light speed becomes fairly
reasonable.


Specific impulse
(exaust velocity)
                Speed 50,000,000 m/s (1/6 light speed)
                                Speed 100,000,000 m/s (1/3 light speed)
2,500,000 sec
(25,000,000m/s)
                7 to 1 mass ratio.
                                55 to 1 mass ratio.
2,000,000 sec
(20,000,000m/s)
                12 to 1 mass ratio.
                                148 to 1 mass ratio.
1,500,000 sec
(15,000,000m/s)
                27 to 1 mass ratio.
                                785 to 1 mass ratio.
1,000,000 sec
(10,000,000m/s)
                147 to 1 mass ratio.
                                22,000 to 1 mass ratio.
500,000 sec
(5,000,000m/s)
                22,000 to 1 mass ratio.
                                500,000,000 to 1 mass ratio.


Note: a specific impulse of 1,000,000 (A exhaust velocity of 10,000,000m/s)
means that the engine gives 1,000,000 pounds of thrust, for one second, for
every pound of fuel consumed.  This has long been a standard fusion engine
performance number.  (For comparison the best chemical engines have a
specific impulse of 455.) Current designs might exceed 1,500,000.  (See
write ups on Bussards Fusion reactor, and Bussards Plasma rocket) But none
have a specific impulse of 2,000,000 or more, or get a 100 to 1 thrust to
weight ratio.  So




Staged fusion ship

You start with a 1 billion ton fueled ship cluster, driven by10 million
tons of engines and support structure.  Those engines are assumed powerful
enough to push the whole mess with an acceleration rate of 10m/s.  (A star
ship that weighs as much as a thousand loaded super tankers, and is
powerfull enough to out accelerate a Corvette?  Yeah right.)

When you burn off 95% of your weight in fuel.  The ship cluster weighs 50
million tons, 20% of which is a first stage engine/structure that's WAY too
powerful.  You throw the first stage away and start a smaller second stage.
It weighs about 400,000 tons (about as much as 4 aircraft carriers) and
can push the 40,000,000 ton ship cluster at 10m/s.  When you burn that down
to 2,000,000 tons of cluster you throw that away that stage for a 70,000
ton ship with 5-10,000 tons of drive systems.  Which can use the remaining
390,000 tons of fuel to get itself into the system.

Stage
Total weight (In tons)
Thruster pack and stage structure.  (In tons)
1
1,000,000,000
10,000,000
2
40,000,000
400,000
3
2,000,000
70,000

So to get a 70,000 ton ship (with 5-10,000 tons of drive systems) into the
target system.  You need to launch out of this starsystem a one billion ton
fueled ship.  Even this assumes a 100 to 1 thrust to weight ration for a
fusion drive systems (which is questionable), and once you get where your
going, coming back is out (unless of course you scale the craft up
accordingly).  But it would give us huge fuel ratios for relativistic
flight.  So, in theory, a Multi stage fusion craft could get to the star.
Assuming of course you can find a billion tons of fusion fuel, and a ship
yard in space that can construct a ship the size of an asteroid! Which
means in practice the ship is unbuildable.

Assuming you could build it, how fast could it get?

Assuming the engines had a Specific impulse of a 1,000,000 (Which as I said
means it has an exaust velocity of 10,000,000 meters per secound), the
speed at the point where you burn out the fuel for each stages is:

Stage
Delta V per stage.  Stages have 100 to 1 fuel ratio.
Delta V per stage.  Stages have 20 to 1 fuel ratio.
1
46,000,000 m/s (.15 C)
30,000,000 m/s (.1 C)
2
92,000,000 m/s (.31 C)
60,000,000 m/s (.2 C)
3
138,000,000 m/s (.46 C)
90,000,000 m/s (.3 C)
4
184,000,000 m/s (.6 C)
120,000,000 m/s (.4 C)
5
230,000,000 m/s (.7 C)
150,000,000 m/s (.5 C)


Also note the diminising returns.  The secound stage doubles your speed.
The third stage increases it by 1/2.  The fourth stage by 1/3rd.  The fifth
stage by 1/4th.  This is due to the low exaust velocity relative to the
speeds your tring to get to.  Obviously an impractical system without much
better engines.

These numbers of course assume the ship has to carry the weight of its
fuel.  Obviously craft normally have to carry their fuel, but their are
some ways around it.




Externally Feed Fusion system.

We don't have to rely on the fuel nature left in interstellar space for us.
A fuel launcher somewhere in our solar system, could throw the fuel out in
front of where the ship is going to fly.  The ship scoops up the fuel as
its going along and uses it to fuel the engines.  This has several
advantages.  The ships engines only need to accelerate the ship itself.
(They don't even have to adjust for changing ship weights.) The fuel is
accelerated up by the launcher, and the ship would only need a fraction of
the fuel it would otherwise.  This means the launcher system (who's power
comes from unaccelerated fuel) takes up a large fraction of the load, and
the ship saves a lot of energy.

Problems are that unless the ship is flying to a starsystem with a
operating fuel launcher.  It can't fly any faster then a speed it can
decelerate from using its onboard fuel reserves.  Also, this only works
when your close enough to the launcher that it can accurately launch the
fuel to you.  Once your out of range, your stuck with the fuel in your
tanks.

A fuel launcher based system (and the beamed power system listed below) has
the advantage of eliminating the need for the ship to carry the heavy fuel
(and power systems).  Which improves the ships power to weight ratio
significantly.  But the systems are difficult to do, limit range, and don't
seem to help us to slow down.  (See details in Externally Fueled fusion
Rocket)




Beamed power

Beamed power (or fuel launchers) have the advantage of eliminating the need
for the ship to carry the heavy fuel (and power systems).  That improves
the ships power to weight ratio significantly.  But the systems are
difficult to do, limit range, and don't seem to help us to slow down.

Beamed power systems are most effective as microwave sail craft.  But
powered electromagnetic drives, or laser pumped drives are also possible.

	Microwave sail craft.


The idea of a microwave sail is that you hang out a parachute like wire
mesh.  To the microwaves the mesh looks like a smooth reflective mirror.
(Just like in the mesh radar dishes.) The microwaves bounce off the sail,
pushing it, and the attached ship, forward.  Just like a solar (or photon)
sailer.

This idea has several advantages.  Its efficent.  The ship doesn't need to
carry a complex drive system.  You can even leave the main power system
back home where all of the solar systems infastructure can get at it for
repairs or improvements.  Unfortunatly, it also has several disadvantages.
You have to be able to hit the ship with the beam across interstellar
distences.  Since the ship will be light years away.  You can't aim at it
because your aim will be years out of date.  The system also can't slow the
ship down, since the presure is straight away from our star system.

Robert Forward in his Roche World serries of science fiction novels had a
laser sail craft that got around this problem by having a two part sail.
You drop the outer ring of the sail which, under robot control, tuned
itself into a concave reflective mirror lens.  The mirror would focus the
light back toward the smaller, now reversed, inner sail.  The outer sail,
now free of the weight of the ship would be blown forward at fantastic
accelerations, but the reflected light could decelerate the ship.

This system is simple in a theoretical sence, but impossible in a real
world sence.  The droped reflection mirror would be under tremendous
presure from the power beam from earth.  This would rapidly accelerate it
away from the ship.  Soon it would be so far away that time dialation would
make it impossible for the mirror to aim at the ships retro mirror.

Fluctuations in the beam density would cause the mirror to ripple and dance
like a kleennex in a jetwash.  The mirror systems would need to be
continuously surfing this light preasure to keep the mirror on the beam,
and forcing the mirror back into precise curvature (with a mirror that
could be hundreds to thousands of miles across), and aiming the reflected
beam at the receading ship.  Since light speed limitations meen it can't
see where the ship is, it will have to calculate a probable possition,
based on its best guess of its beam precision and the ships deceleration
mirror efficency.  Errors are inevitable, even ignoring random effects of
errosion and system breakdowns; and any error will mean the mirror is
missing the ship.  Which would doom the crew.


	Microwave powered electromagnetic drives.

Like the microwave sail above, a beam of microwaves is beamed to the ship.
Unlike above the power is collecte and turned into electricity to power the
ships motors.  Also unlike above, this can give reverse thrust.
Unfortunatly it might not be able to generate enough thrust to slow down.
Much to our annoyance we found the sail effect on the collector would
provide as much forward thrust as the engine could give going backwards,
even if we assumed 100% efficency.



Anti-matter

As anyone whos ever seen an episode of Star Trek knows.  Anti-matter can be
destroyed to create tremendous amounts of energy.  Pound for pound a
Anti-matter / matter reaction releases over a hundred times as much power
as a fusion reaction.  Unfortunately, though it releases more power; this
power is harder to directly use to power the ship, and it is far more
dangerous to handle.  If we could synthesize the tens of thousands of tons
of antimatter this would take.  It would have the potential of exploding
with a force of hundreds of millions of H-bombs.

We do not have the technology needed to synthesize, store, or ship anti
matter on this scale, and are not likely to get it by 2050.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
Cc: David@interworld.com (David Levine),
         Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Timothy van der Linden ,
        KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
         zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: New Design Team Member
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:17:42 -0500

At 10:53 AM 3/12/96, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>At 10:42 AM 3/12/96, David Levine wrote:
>>Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>>> Dave, what have you forwarded to him of our recent correspondence?
>>>
>>> Kelly
>>
>>Um, nothing.  Instead of forwarding huge loads of
>>mail, I thought a summary might have been better.  But
>>most of this is technically above me...  Anyone want
>>to give it a crack?
>>
>>David
>
>
>I could forward the text of my summary web pages.  They are about as close
>to a FAQ sheet as we have, and everyone else can fill in the blanks.
>
>Any complaints?
>
>Kelly
>
Future tech


The engineering and science we have now, and assumed we will have in 2050,
will change. Fusion, fission, relativity, quantum mechanics, and a host of
other fundamentals of current physics; were all discovered within the last
hundred years. We can conservatively expect physics to change far more in
the next hundred years, then it did in the last hundred. What technologies
we will have on hand in a century or two are impossible to guess. We could
have matter conversion, hyperlight drives, new understandings of inertia
and kinetic energy, nanotech, hyper intelligent A.I.s, or all those and far
more. Any of these would dramatically effect our ability to travel between
the stars. So even though we can't come up with any practical ideas for
exploring the stars now, we can be sure our descendants will find it far
easier than we imagine.

The reason we in the L.I.T. group assumed few new technologies, is that we
could quickly wind up in a science fiction argument as apposed to a
starship design project. Not only don't we know which revolutionary
technologies will developed by 2050 (50 years ago, would you have believed
the incredible stuff we have now?), but assuming any major advance changes
everything else in the project.

For example: a couple of technologies frequently talked about are:
Nanotech, self replicating machines, and Artificial intelligences with
human or greater levels of intelligence. These obviously are related
fields, but the effects they'd have on the rest of the mission are
dramatic.

Nanotech
Nanotech is a set of technologies currently under research that would build
machines the size of complex integrated molecules. In theory; such machines
working together, could tear a mountain full of ore down, atom by atom, and
reassemble it into manufactured products. They could do this so quickly the
mountain would flow into its new forms like it melted. Virus sized robots
could cruise through our cells and repair anything from radiation induced
mutations to any form of disease or injury. They may allow virtual
immortality and eternal youth. And their promoters expect them to be
commonly available by 2050.

This could allow the ship to become fully self repairing down to the
molecular level. A semi living machine that could continue indefinitely
without any concern for wear and tear. Populated by near immortal,
superhuman, crews. Able to manufacture almost anything, to any scale, with
little if any human assistance. Need a massive infrastructure in the target
star system? Drop a set of these and they will transmute a continent to
build it for you.

Obviously this starts to eliminate almost any normal physical limits of the
ship and crew. The side effects on human society are incalculable. Would
such super humans: be to preoccupied to explore the stars? To powerful and
impatient to take a long slow flight, or so long lived that adding a few
decades to the trip would mean nothing to them.


Self replicating machines
Say you can't build molecular sized machines, but you can build small
adaptable robots that can make copies of themselves. They can still
revolutionize automation. Can still be dropped on a world and told to
restructure a continent to serve our purposes, or mine anything we need in
whatever amount. That would be very valuable if you need to large scale
mining or infrastructure construction to get home, or do extensive
exploration of all parts of all the worlds.

Note that this doesn't assume the machines are intelligent or completely
autonomous. After all Bees can build pretty complex structures by following
a few rules. Perhaps self replicating computers can do as well. On the
other hand we've never come close to making a factory that could run
unattended for very long, much less fix or rebuild itself. Some studies by
NASA show that such things might not be possible without humans to keep
everything running. But things might be a lot different in half a century.


Artificial intelligences with human or greater levels intelligence.
We already build and sell super computers with more power and data capacity
then a human brain. In 20 years that should be the capacity of a good home
computer. What we can't do is figure out how to teach these brains to
think. Will we be able do that by 2050? Will our ship be totally automated?
Assembled by robots, and capable of doing all the exploration itself? Will
it be filled with a crew of robots, or a mixture of robots and humans?


Decisions decisions.
Unless we said otherwise we assumed none of these technologies is in use on
this project. The implications just get to bizarre. Any of the technologies
listed above would turn all of Earth culture inside out. Or any of the
dozens of other similar technologies We didn't discus, or think of. After a
lot of arguing we decided to assume that no fantastic discoveries are made
in science and technology in the next 50 years. Which we all agree, is the
least likely assumption we could possibly make.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
Cc: David@interworld.com (David Levine),
         Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Timothy van der Linden ,
        KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
         zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: New Design Team Member
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:20:03 -0500

At 10:53 AM 3/12/96, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>At 10:42 AM 3/12/96, David Levine wrote:
>>Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>>> Dave, what have you forwarded to him of our recent correspondence?
>>>
>>> Kelly
>>
>>Um, nothing.  Instead of forwarding huge loads of
>>mail, I thought a summary might have been better.  But
>>most of this is technically above me...  Anyone want
>>to give it a crack?
>>
>>David
>
>
>I could forward the text of my summary web pages.  They are about as close
>to a FAQ sheet as we have, and everyone else can fill in the blanks.
>
>Any complaints?
>
>Kelly
>
Mission Flight Type


This is a summary of the various types of flights we might use to send a
mission to another star (Round trip, pickup and return by follow on flight,
construction of return equipment at target star, Multi-star, Multi
generation, hibernation, and one way). It briefly describes each flight
type and its advantages and disadvantages.



Round trip

Ship and crew return to Earth at mission end.

Advantages

*Simplest option, and one with little likely hood of public objection.

*More likely to get more volunteers and better qualified volunteers for flight.

*This option implies that the mission is fairly short. I.E. within the
professional life of the crew. This would imply its short enough to return
information in a useful amount of time. (I.E. it would get there and back,
before a later faster flight could do it.)

*It would return far more information than an interstellar communications
link could manage.

*It obviously avoids the grisly public relations and crew morale problems
of a one way mission.

Disadvantages

*Technically more challenging. Getting a ship to the target starsystem is
hard enough. Getting it back would make it harder. But this must be traded
off against the added complexity of a ship capable of supporting its crew
for the rest of their lives.

*It has to be a fast enough ship to get back in an acceptable amount of
time. Too slow and theirs no practical reason to send it.




Pick up and return by follow on flight

Advantages

*Most of the advantages of the round trip model, and would allow the first
ship to be a mobile research station or other specialized ship, with faster
courier ships providing round trip flights.


Disadvantages

*High risk and more complicated. Multiple ship types, and concerns that the
first ship might be left stranded. The multiple ship types (the first being
a big heavy slow boat, the latter faster smaller ships) is probably
manageable and might even have advantages. The problem of assured crew
return would have to be handled conclusively.



Crew constructs equipment for return flight

This option come up with light/microwave sail craft, beamed power craft,
and fuel launcher craft. The crew would construct automated duplicates of
the systems that launched the ship from Sol space.

Advantages

*Would establish launcher facilities in both star systems. Which could
allowing faster two way flights with specialized fast light ships.

*The crew might get back faster with their ship using the constructed
launcher systems for assistance.

From popserver Tue Mar 12 21:31:47 GMT 1996
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	["5208" "Tue" "12" "March" "1996" "16:24:40" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "169" "Mission purpose" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
Cc: David@interworld.com (David Levine),
         Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Timothy van der Linden ,
        KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
         zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Mission purpose
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:24:40 -0500

At 10:53 AM 3/12/96, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>At 10:42 AM 3/12/96, David Levine wrote:
>>Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>>> Dave, what have you forwarded to him of our recent correspondence?
>>>
>>> Kelly
>>
>>Um, nothing.  Instead of forwarding huge loads of
>>mail, I thought a summary might have been better.  But
>>most of this is technically above me...  Anyone want
>>to give it a crack?
>>
>>David
>
>
>I could forward the text of my summary web pages.  They are about as close
>to a FAQ sheet as we have, and everyone else can fill in the blanks.
>
>Any complaints?
>
>Kelly
>

Mission purpose


Why do we want to go to another star anyway? We obviously have to want to
do it pretty badly, or we would never pay for all this.  Presumably this
isn't some kind of cold war stunt like Apollo, where we go plant a flag and
come home and drop it all.  We certainly aren't likely to get any immediate
financial benefit.  We absolutely don't have any problems back home
(hunger, famine, mineral depletion, etc..) that this could help.  So what
do we want out of the flight?




Exploration of the planets and moons in another star system

Advantages

*Very popular idea with public.

*Possibility of tremendous scientific returns.


Disadvantages

*Expensive.  You'd need a huge ship to carry all of the hundreds of
researchers, surveyors, and all the support staff and advanced equipment it
would take to do even a minimal job of surveying a new star system.

*A planet with a Earth-like ecology it would be a biological death trap.
Alien microbes, allergens, and other unknowns life forms would easily
defeat unprepared Earth mammalian immune systems.  The ground teams would
be in an area that would be worse, to them, than biological war back on
Earth.

*On a planet with a non-Earth-like ecology it still could be a biological
death trap, and in addition have basic climate and biosphere
incompatibilities (Wrong temperatures, air pressures, gravity).

*This is a massive undertaking.  You'd only try it if you really wanted to
explore.  This would require a major national (or international?)
commitment.




Colonization of planets or moons

Advantages

*Very popular idea with public.

*Excellent staging area for direct examination of that planet or moon.


Disadvantages

*Expensive.  Either the colony would need to be the size of a major city to
support all of the specialists needed to support a self sustaining society,
or regular (extremely expensive) supply flights from earth would be
necessary.

*On a planet with a Earth-like ecology it would be a biological death trap.
Alien microbes, allergens, and other unknowns life forms would easily
defeat unprepared Earth mammalian immune systems.

*On a planet with a non-Earth-like ecology it still could be a biological
death trap, and in addition have basic climate and biosphere
incompatibilities (Wrong temperatures, air pressures, gravity).

*Isolation from resources.  Ores, energy and raw materials are far harder
to access on a planet than in space.

*Isolation from other planets.

*Their doesn't seem to be enough practical justification for such a massive
undertaking.  Again, it would require a major commitment or resources.
Which means a major public interest.



Colonization of constructed space platforms

Advantages

*Still may be a very popular idea with public.

*Excellent staging area for examination of the solar system.

*Much lower biological threat than on a planet with biosphere.

*The internal gravity, radiation, and environment can be precisely tailored
to humans.

*Far easier to construct and service than a planet bound colony.

*Easy access to plentiful resources.  (Space is considered so much richer
in cheap, easy to access resources and power.  That it is expected that
Earth's heavy industry will migrate into space in the next century.)

*Could act as a servicing center and supply port for the starship, or
subsequent starships.


Disadvantages

*Expensive.  Either the colony would need to be the size of a major city to
support all of the specialists needed to support a self sustaining society,
or regular (extremely expensive) supply flights from earth would be
necessary.

*Their doesn't seem to be enough practical justification for such a massive
undertaking.  Again, it would require a major commitment or resources.
Which means a major public interest.




Infrastructure construction

Advantages

*This could establish facilities necessary for routine, lower cost, flights
between home and this starsystem.

Disadvantages

*Construction could take so many resources that little or no exploration
will be done.

*Less interesting to public than an exploration or colony program.  So it
might have a harder time getting funded.  But it could be part of a first
flight the opens up the star system for larger follow on flights.

*Could be very expensive.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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	["1281" "Tue" "12" "March" "1996" "23:14:20" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "33" "Re: Core memory" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Core memory
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:14:20 +0100

>Timothy van der Linden writes:
> > > > Why doesn't the magnetic field in the ferrite core degrade? (I
assume the
> > > > ferrite has some resistance.)
> > >
> > >Have you ever known other magnets to degrade?  Once magnetized, a
> > >material won't demagnetize unless exposed to heat above its Curie point
> > >or another sufficiently strong magnetic field.
> > 
> > Oh, now I understand, you create a permanent magnetic field just like
> > magnetic discs and tapes. (I though you created a current in the core) So in
> > fact the cores don't need to be closed completely.
> > 
> > Tim
>
>The core is in essence just a lump of magnetizable material; they were
>generally made toroidal because it was easiest to string them that way.

Hmmm, I would think that an open loop would be easier. After cross-wiring
the grid, you could simply "clip" the "cores" over the cross-sections. This
in contrast to the weaving. Anyway, its clear.

>There were some designs for magnetic memory that didn't use cores, but
>(if I recall correctly) used spots of magnetic material sandwiched
>between two layers of parallel conductors.  And even more exotic memory
>hardware has existed -- ever heard of mecury delay lines?  Williams
>tubes?

Nope, never heard of.

Thank you for explaining.

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer meltdown  ;-(
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:14:26 +0100

>I think the avalance from Brian did it.  Disk fry via E-mail.  Lets all
>blame Brian.  

Having another new member who has much free time (?) may overflow our
mail-boxes even more.

>Well at least hard drives are very cheap now a days.  It could have been
>something expensive like RAM or a monitor.

If anything brakes down around my computer, it better happens the next 2.5
years, untill then I've full repair/replace service (for only 300 guilders).
(I already have had a monitor meltdown (literally))

Kevin, good luck (hope you had some resent backups)

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Close but no cigar?
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:14:32 +0100

OK here the (revised) letter that I wrote Kevin earlier this day about the
melting sail.

>> Hello Kevin,
>> 
>> Could not help myself, so started calculating if the sail would melt or not:
>
>That's cool, because I wasn't really sure how to do it myself yet.
>
>> Power out: P=s T^4
>
>Is this the proper blackbody radiation formula?  Looks to simple to me.

This is the Boltzmann equation, the Planck equation looks much more ugly and
only tells the energy density per "delta wavelength". So one would need to
integrate the latter (which doesn't seem easy).

Kevin suggested using Titanium because it is easy to mine on the moon.
Since I haven't numbers about that I will use Wolfraam.

>> s = Bolzmann constant = 5.67E-8 W m^-2 K^-4
>> T = Temperature [K]
>> P = Energy density [W/m^2]
>> 
>> Power in: 7.5E5 W/m^2
>> 
>> Energy buffer: Wolfraam
>> Specific heat = 135 J kg^-1 K^-1
>> Melt temp = 3680 K
>> 
>> 0.05 Kg/m^2
>> 
>> 0.05 135 = 6.75 J K^-1 m^-2
>> 
>> Max energy: 3680 * 67.5 = 2.48E4 J m^-2
>> 
>> 2.48E4 < 7.5E5  Close but no cigar. (But this may be solved by decreasing
>> the beam density) We need a metal that radiates more than 7.5E5 W/m^2 at a
>> temperature less than its melting temp.
>> 
>> Hey, having done the calculation, I see that the product of melting
>> temperature and specific heat is important, so lets look in my tables again:
>> 
>> For copper we get : 0.05*387*1356=2.6E4 J/m^2
>> For magnesium :     0.05*1026*922=4.7E4 J/m^2

Tim (and Kevin)

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Another piece of the puzzle?
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:14:37 +0100

>>>Sounds like the reflector would be a series of angular reflectors.  They
>>>would reflect the beam a couple of times at angles that would twist the
>>>polorization before returning it.
>>
>>With angular reflector you mean a mirror that reflects with an angle unequal
>>to 180 degrees?
>>
>>If I'm informed right, reflection will (in the end) not give you any
>>rotation the polarization.
>
>I beleave that the polorization is changed when it reflects off a flat
>surface.  I.E. Light or radio waves are poloried by reflecting off water or
>glass at an angle.  (A serious problem for TV transmitters in the land of
>skyscrapers!)  If you made the reflector out of a lot of piramid like
>reflectors aranged at the right angle it should allow you to change the
>polorization angle by reflection.

All I know is that mostly horizontal polarization is choosen (one can see
that at ones tv-antenna) (hope, I'm not talking non-sense here)
The reason for using that particular polarization is because most objects do
distort the other polarization more.

Does anyone else know for sure what happens?

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:14:43 +0100

To Kelly,

>>I assume that with "impulse ratio" you mean "impulse velocity". Than the
>>answer is yes.
>>So after "extracting" the energy of the fusion fuel, you could better dump
>>the excess mass without accelerating it! (Because if you accelerate it the
>>other mass could be accelerated less)
>
>Actually no.  Specific impulse is a term with rockets that tells how much
>thrust you can get out of a mass of reaction mass or fuel.  (in a normal
>rocket they are the same.)  For example a pound of hydrogen and oxegen
>pumped into a shuttle motor generates about 455 pound secounds of thrust.

(Meaning 1 pound can lift 455 pound?)

>My numbers showed that unless the specific impulse were geting out of the
>Explorer classes engines is over 2,000,000 we don't get to go.

I think the specific impulse can be calculated as follows:

Spec. Impulse = Vexh/a    (non-relativistic)

Vexh=exhaust velocity
a=acceleration (10 m/s/s)

So that would give a Spec.Imp. of about 2.5E6

>So I was
>woundering is using the fusion fuel directly would make more or less
>performance mass sence then mixing it in with extra reaction mass, or
>converting the power to electricity that accelerates a smaller reaction
>mass in a lineac?

I'm sorry, I cannot make sense of this sentence, I think you made some
writing errors.

>Given that the energy in the fusion reactors was all
>turned into kinetic energy in the exaust plasma, I had assumed using it
>directly would be most efficent.

Ofcourse that depends on the possible efficiency and on the exhaust speed of
the plasma. Can the latter be regulated by making the outlets smaller or
broader?


Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Robots
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:14:49 +0100

>>>Actually, I'm assuming that robots would have limits based on their
>>>programming.  I imagine that the first working, completely automated systems
>>>would, in some ways, be less efficient in computer controled hands than if
>>>humans were doing the same job.  For example: how do you think computers and
>>>robots would have handled the job of bringing home the  Apollo 13 crew?
>>
>>In my opinion such robots are intelligent or they aren't (no way between).
>>Say that you have figured out a machine with an IQ of 40. Then you could
>>probably link them up in such a way that 10 of them together would have an
>>IQ of 100.
>
>Have you ever tried putting a room full of morons together and expect them
>to do one inteligent persons work?  It doesn't work.  Mobs tend to be less
>equivelent then the sum of their parts. 

I was already thinking someone would say this.
What if we would learn every moron another set of tasks? Together they may
be able to solve more complicated tasks.

>Given that we have no idea on how
>to make an A.I. work its hard to tell what it could do, or what its
>limitations would be.  It could be far more inteligent than humamans, or be
>an idiot savant.  Great at one thing, and hopeless in general.

As I already said, no way between.


Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:15:00 +0100

>>>It might be very difficult, but I think the precision is possible.  (Not
>>>that I have any experence to back that up.)  At least the angle would be
>>>shallow.
>>
>>Yes, that shallow angle makes it easier. But why not use one single laser?
>>That lases could be just near the launch-site, just like when used in any of
>>the Asimov designs.
>
>I wanted to keep the range low.  Precisly stearing a canister with a laser
>over 15 light minuttes away seemed to be pushing the likely accuracy and
>beam convergence.  Besides having it pass between other laser tugs would
>make corse corrections easier.  And multiple beams could accelerate
>multiple canisters at once.

OK

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Research Announcement to Jump-Start X-34
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:15:05 +0100

To Lee,

Lee, I got this message a few hours ago. If I understand it correctly,
it does say that the X-34 project is revived. I also notice this article
says that the X-34 project will not be used for commercial applications.

Timothy

======================================================================

Jim Cast
Headquarters, Washington, DC               March 12, 1996
(Phone:  202/358-1779)

Dom Amatore
Marshall Space Flight Center, Huntsville, AL
(Phone:  205/544-0031)

RELEASE:  96-45

RESEARCH ANNOUNCEMENT TO JUMP-START X-34

    A forthcoming NASA Research Announcement (NRA) will solicit 
industry and government proposals aimed at re-structuring the X-34 
program allowing for one or more small technology demonstrator 
vehicles to begin flight tests in 1998.

    The original X-34 was to have been a small, reusable 
commercial launch vehicle as well as a technology test bed for the 
Agency's Reusable Launch Vehicle activities.  The Cooperative 
Agreement which formed this initial industry-government 
partnership has been revoked by industry due to their concerns 
about the commercial viability of the effort.

    The intention to issue an NRA by the end of the month was 
announced today in the "Commerce Business Daily."  "This 
announcement marks an important step in focussing the X-34 program 
on our top priority of technology demonstration flight tests," 
said Gary Payton, Director of NASAUs Reusable Launch Vehicle 
Program.  "This will allow government and industry to get on with 
the important task of demonstrating key technologies in the 
demanding test environments that address tomorrowUs reusable space 
transportation needs," Payton said.

    This re-structured technology demonstration program -- not 
tied to potential commercial applications -- is being planned to 
bridge the gap between this springUs flight tests of the DC-XA 
(NASA's Advanced Delta Clipper), and projected flight tests of a 
larger X-33 demonstrator in the spring of 1999.  The X-33 program 
could lead to a national, industry-led decision, by 
the year 2000, to develop a commercial vehicle early next century 
which will provide affordable, reliable and reusable access to 
space.  Results of the X-34 program will be shared with industry 
which is soon to begin development of the X-33.

    Plans for the program include launch and landing one or more 
unmanned, reusable vehicles up to 25 times within a year;  powered 
flights to at least 250,000 feet and capable of attaining 8-times 
the speed of sound or better;  use of advanced thermal protection 
systems flying subsonically through rain and fog;  flights of new 
technologies that test composite structures, composite tanks, and 
new integrated avionics;  and demonstrations of safe abort and 
autonomous landing techniques, in high cross winds, utilizing 
modern landing systems.

    The government commitment in the re-structured program is 
estimated to be approximately $60 million.

Today's Commerce Business Daily announcement is also available 
through the Internet via the Marshall Space Flight Center 
Procurement Home Page at URL:   

http://procure.msfc.nasa.gov/midrange/presol/notices/notices.html

and the NASA RLV Home Page URL:  http://rlv.msfc.nasa.gov

                         - end -

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.magec.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
         DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 22:44:08 -0500

to: tim

> To Kelly,

> >>I assume that with "impulse ratio" you mean "impulse velocity". Than the
> >>answer is yes.
> >>So after "extracting" the energy of the fusion fuel, you could better
dump
> >>the excess mass without accelerating it! (Because if you accelerate it
the
> >>other mass could be accelerated less)
> >
> >Actually no.  Specific impulse is a term with rockets that tells how much
> >thrust you can get out of a mass of reaction mass or fuel.  (in a normal
> >rocket they are the same.)  For example a pound of hydrogen and oxegen
> >pumped into a shuttle motor generates about 455 pound secounds of thrust.

> (Meaning 1 pound can lift 455 pound?)

Yup, a one second hover.

> >My numbers showed that unless the specific impulse were geting out of the
> >Explorer classes engines is over 2,000,000 we don't get to go.

> I think the specific impulse can be calculated as follows:

> Spec. Impulse = Vexh/a    (non-relativistic)

> Vexh=exhaust velocity
> a=acceleration (10 m/s/s)

> So that would give a Spec.Imp. of about 2.5E6

????  Ah, no I don't think thats correct.

> >So I was
> >woundering is using the fusion fuel directly would make more or less
> >performance mass sence then mixing it in with extra reaction mass, or
> >converting the power to electricity that accelerates a smaller reaction
> >mass in a lineac?

> I'm sorry, I cannot make sense of this sentence, I think 
> you made some writing errors.

The question was, can you get more thrust out of a pound of fusion fuel by
using a reactor to convert it to electricity, and use the electricity to
accelerate a reaction mass (ignoring engineering losses).  Or would
converting the fuel to high speed plasma get you more thrust.

> >Given that the energy in the fusion reactors was all
> >turned into kinetic energy in the exaust plasma, I had assumed using it
> >directly would be most efficent.

> Ofcourse that depends on the possible efficiency and 
> on the exhaust speed of the plasma. Can the latter be 
> regulated by making the outlets smaller or broader?

Efficency?  Efficency of what?

Don't know about using nozzles to accelerate the plasma.

Kelly

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:24:03 +0100

To Kelly,

>> >My numbers showed that unless the specific impulse were geting out of the
>> >Explorer classes engines is over 2,000,000 we don't get to go.
>
>> I think the specific impulse can be calculated as follows:

F*t = p -> M*g*t = m*Vexh

Specific impulse = M/m = Vexh/(g*t)

This formula says: The momentum of a mass m with velocity Vexh is equal to
the acceleration of a mass M during t seconds.

1 kg of fusion fuel would work most efficient if it was accelerated to the
optimum velocity where I made a table for 2 days ago. This gives us Vexh=0.085c

We need to take g=9.8 m/s/s and t=1 second.

That gives for the specific impulse = 0.085c/(9.8*1) = 2.6E6

So while this may look much, I think it is right. Why do you think it is not OK?

>The question was, can you get more thrust out of a pound of fusion fuel by
>using a reactor to convert it to electricity, and use the electricity to
>accelerate a reaction mass (ignoring engineering losses).  Or would
>converting the fuel to high speed plasma get you more thrust.

If you ignore energy losses, it doesn't matter, as long as you can regulate
the exhaust velocity of the plasma (which should not be too hard).

>>> Given that the energy in the fusion reactors was all
>>> turned into kinetic energy in the exaust plasma, I had assumed using it
>>> directly would be most efficent.
>> Ofcourse that depends on the possible efficiency and 
>> on the exhaust speed of the plasma. Can the latter be 
>> regulated by making the outlets smaller or broader?
>
> Efficency?  Efficency of what?

The efficiency of the conversion to electricity and then back to kinetic energy.

>Don't know about using nozzles to accelerate the plasma.

Or to decelerate (depending on the initial velocity)

Tim

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:38:37 -0500

At 12:24 PM 3/13/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>To Kelly,
>
>>> >My numbers showed that unless the specific impulse were geting out of the
>>> >Explorer classes engines is over 2,000,000 we don't get to go.
>>
>>> I think the specific impulse can be calculated as follows:
>
>F*t = p -> M*g*t = m*Vexh
>
>Specific impulse = M/m = Vexh/(g*t)
>
>This formula says: The momentum of a mass m with velocity Vexh is equal to
>the acceleration of a mass M during t seconds.
>
>1 kg of fusion fuel would work most efficient if it was accelerated to the
>optimum velocity where I made a table for 2 days ago. This gives us Vexh=0.085c
>
>We need to take g=9.8 m/s/s and t=1 second.
>
>That gives for the specific impulse = 0.085c/(9.8*1) = 2.6E6
>
>So while this may look much, I think it is right. Why do you think it
>is not OK?

Well one problem I have is since I don't know ow to find what speed the
reaction particals will be at after the reaction (I have Mev power levels
but I'm not sure how to use them), The equation doesn't tell me much.  For
example, a pound of fuel will fuse and realest its particals at x Mev.
What speed is that?  How much electric power can the generator convert that
to?  Using that electricity, how much mass can we accelerate to the ideal
velocity?

>>The question was, can you get more thrust out of a pound of fusion fuel by
>>using a reactor to convert it to electricity, and use the electricity to
>>accelerate a reaction mass (ignoring engineering losses).  Or would
>>converting the fuel to high speed plasma get you more thrust.
>
>If you ignore energy losses, it doesn't matter, as long as you can regulate
>the exhaust velocity of the plasma (which should not be too hard).

I woud think the velocity would be fixed. I can't think how to increase it
without adding external power.  Decreasing would probably involve taping
some of its power off, and giving it to a larger volume of reaction mass.

>>>> Given that the energy in the fusion reactors was all
>>>> turned into kinetic energy in the exaust plasma, I had assumed using it
>>>> directly would be most efficent.
>>> Ofcourse that depends on the possible efficiency and
>>> on the exhaust speed of the plasma. Can the latter be
>>> regulated by making the outlets smaller or broader?
>>
>> Efficency?  Efficency of what?
>
>The efficiency of the conversion to electricity and then back to kinetic
>energy.

Conversion to electric was about 99% efficency.  I would think a mag
accelerator would be very high efficency.  Actually in our case it would
have to be or we'ld melt the ship.

>>Don't know about using nozzles to accelerate the plasma.
>
>Or to decelerate (depending on the initial velocity)
>
>Tim


Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Timothy van der Linden 
cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer meltdown ;-(
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 16:38:00 -0600 (CST)



On Tue, 12 Mar 1996, Timothy van der Linden wrote:

> >I think the avalance from Brian did it.  Disk fry via E-mail.  Lets all
> >blame Brian.  
> 
> Having another new member who has much free time (?) may overflow our
> mail-boxes even more.
> 
> >Well at least hard drives are very cheap now a days.  It could have been
> >something expensive like RAM or a monitor.
> 
> If anything brakes down around my computer, it better happens the next 2.5
> years, untill then I've full repair/replace service (for only 300 guilders).
> (I already have had a monitor meltdown (literally))
> 
> Kevin, good luck (hope you had some resent backups)
> 


i feel I should explain.  I didn't lose any data.  The reason I want to 
swap a hard drive out is because i got a bigger one from my father.  The 
OS/2 that I run is crammed on a 40 Meg hard drive, And I want to have 
more breathing room.  i still don't know what caused my computer to stop 
working, but i have been able to get it partially up.  (But I had to use 
a back up copy of my desktop which didn't include any of the internet 
applications.  So I am still resorting to telnet connection to read/reply 
to mail.  But it is very slow.  i very often overun My cursor.  Reading 
is easier, but writing is, as you see, still possible.

Kevin

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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Timothy van der Linden 
cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Close but no cigar?
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 16:43:19 -0600 (CST)



On Tue, 12 Mar 1996, Timothy van der Linden wrote:

> >> Power out: P=s T^4
> >
> >Is this the proper blackbody radiation formula?  Looks too simple to me.
> 
> This is the Boltzmann equation, the Planck equation looks much more ugly and
> only tells the energy density per "delta wavelength". So one would need to
> integrate the latter (which doesn't seem easy).
> 
I think you will have to.  Remember, the amount of IR will go up as the 
temp goes up. so as the sail heats up, the amount of radiated energy will 
increase also.  or does your formula show that?  I'm confused.


> Kevin suggested using Titanium because it is easy to mine on the moon.
> Since I haven't numbers about that I will use Wolfraam.
> 

if we can't make it work for tungsten (W) we can't make it work for 
titainium (Ti)

Kevin

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         bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 19:06:12 -0600

At 10:44 PM 3/12/96 -0500, you wrote:
>to: tim
>
>> To Kelly,
>
>> >Explorer classes engines is over 2,000,000 we don't get to go.
>
>
>The question was, can you get more thrust out of a pound of fusion fuel by
>using a reactor to convert it to electricity, and use the electricity to
>accelerate a reaction mass (ignoring engineering losses).  Or would
>converting the fuel to high speed plasma get you more thrust.
>
>> >Given that the energy in the fusion reactors was all
>> >turned into kinetic energy in the exaust plasma, I had assumed using it
>> >directly would be most efficent.
>
The problem does come down to engineering efficiency unfortuneately. Because
we can not yet, and are not likely in the foreseeable future to realize
performance efficiencies approaching unity (100%) then engineering is the
stumbling block.

Every time you cut another conversion process into the loop, I can almost
GAURANTEE that you will lose 30% to 50% of your efficiency. If you are only
starting out with 30 % on the first place....

Lee
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 01:28:04 +0100

>>That gives for the specific impulse = 0.085c/(9.8*1) = 2.6E6
>>
>>So while this may look much, I think it is right. Why do you think it
>>is not OK?
>
>Well one problem I have is since I don't know ow to find what speed the
>reaction particals will be at after the reaction (I have Mev power levels
>but I'm not sure how to use them), The equation doesn't tell me much.  For
>example, a pound of fuel will fuse and realest its particals at x Mev.
>What speed is that?  How much electric power can the generator convert that
>to?  Using that electricity, how much mass can we accelerate to the ideal
>velocity?

I think the initial velocity doesn't matter since one can regulate the final
velocity with the size of the outlet (see below).

>>If you ignore energy losses, it doesn't matter, as long as you can regulate
>>the exhaust velocity of the plasma (which should not be too hard).
>
>I woud think the velocity would be fixed. I can't think how to increase it
>without adding external power.  Decreasing would probably involve taping
>some of its power off, and giving it to a larger volume of reaction mass.

No, what matters most is the pressure that is build up inside the engine.
The higher the pressure, the higher the exhaust velocity.
One can regulate that velocity by enlarging or reduce the ourlet.

Jet-fighters also have an adjustable outlet, just before take-off they make
the outlet small, this way the engine-rotation can stay constant (but the
power has to increase). I assume that closing the outlet can be done
considerable faster and easier than increasing the revolutionspeed of the
engine.

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Close but no cigar?
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 01:27:58 +0100

>> >> Power out: P=s T^4
>> >
>> >Is this the proper blackbody radiation formula?  Looks too simple to me.
>> 
>> This is the Boltzmann equation, the Planck equation looks much more ugly and
>> only tells the energy density per "delta wavelength". So one would need to
>> integrate the latter (which doesn't seem easy).
> 
>I think you will have to.  Remember, the amount of IR will go up as the 
>temp goes up. so as the sail heats up, the amount of radiated energy will 
>increase also.  or does your formula show that?  I'm confused.

The formula I used, shows that the amount of radiated energy per surface
area (P) increases as the temperature (T) of the black-body goes up. It does
not discriminate between the different wavelengths (which is why I used that
formula in the first place). I don't see any reason why you want to know
specifically how much IR is send out. But if you want to, you need to use
Planck's formula.
(Both Plank's and Bolzmann's equation have T to the power 4)

>> Kevin suggested using Titanium because it is easy to mine on the moon.
>> Since I haven't numbers about that I will use Wolfraam.
> 
>if we can't make it work for tungsten (W) we can't make it work for 
>titainium (Ti)

As I suggested, we could decrease the density of the radiation by a factor
10 (and increase the sail by the same factor)

What I should note is that I used the surface of a flat plate. Since we use
a mesh the effective area may be several times larger!

Timothy

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From: Brian Mansur 
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         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
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Subject: Re: Laser Aperture Size
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 18:59:00 PST


>From Brian

>Lee?
> The Fresnel lens has already been discounted on the basis that it 
introduces
> chromatic aberrations into the beam, rendering it largely useless. A
> reflecting optical system would work better.
>
> If you must do it with mirrors, there is no need to get complicated, just
> build a staged design (kind of like onion rings) where the main ship 
detachs
> large chunks of sail to function as a deceleration stage, then a slightly
> smaller chunk as an acceleration stage to leave TC, and decelerates back
> into Sol on the unreflected beam. Each stage would function as a mirror to
> propel the remaining ship and sail sections in the appropriate direction.
> This method would probably still require a Fresnel lens though.

>Kevin
>This is the design put forth by Robert Forward, the main problem is that
>you can't get anywhere near light speed, because then the doppler shift
>from the retreating sail will reduce the energy to near zero.

And we can't figure out how to get the darn mirrors keep form, aim, and who 
knows what else!

>Lee
> As much as I like the sail concept, I still think the RAIR concept is more
> promising. Especially if you can boost fuel into its path to increase its
> cruise velocity. I like the idea of using sails for the fuel, though.

>Kevin
>I disagree.

Brian
At this time, I disagree as well.  Both require HUGE amounts of power to 
work because both have to get up relativistic speeds to be of any use.  The 
RAIR needs 5E16W/s (if my recalculations on Kelly's paper are correct) just 
as the sail does if we want to get up  to 1/3c.  Both need to get that power 
from someplace.

> I think the simplest mission in terms of hab space design is
>going to be a 1g thrust to midpoint, then a 1G thrust to target.  The big
>advantage, is the time dialation for the crew.

Problem is Kevin, as you pointed out above, that the doplar shift shoots the 
electric bill through as you try to get speed near c.

Another problem I may have just spotted is the that the effects of impacts 
with interstellar matter increases as you approach a light-speed.  Think of 
it.  Your apparant mass (internal energy, something like that) keeps going 
up even though you keep pushing your speed infintely closer to c.  While you 
are only going .999c (I'm making these numbers up to make a point), your 
impact with that speck of dust feels as if you were going 1000c.

 Am I making any sense?  Do I even know what I'm talking about?  I get this 
idea from word about a superfast particle known as the "Oh My God" Particle 
(although I detest the name on the basis of religious convictions). 
 Apparantly, if it were to hit Earth's atmosphere at its speed of something 
like .99999999999999999999c, it would be as if a brick were in its place. 
 And that is for a particle.  Think of what a starship would be feeling from 
every interstellar hydrogen atom at that speeds.

So while the time dialation advantage is enticing, its tradeoffs seem to 
make it impractical.  By the way, the design I'm working on for the Argosy 
easily accounts for the acceleration and cruise phases by using a dumbell 
centrifuge with hab modules for cruise phase and then stacking the hab 
modules on top of each other come time for accel/decel phase.  I know Kelly 
is skeptical of a dumbell setup for erosion reasons, but we may have a way 
of  protecting against that too.  Read about it in my Argosy paper when I 
send it to the group after break. 

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: interstellar drive group , David ,
        Kevin C Houston ,
         jim , KellySt ,
         kgstar , lparker ,
        rddesign , Steve VanDevender 
To: "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: RE:
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 19:06:00 PST


>From Brian

>Kevin
Ship's  Sail  Sail   Sail    Total   Accel   Maser   Refl  Excess  Stress
Mass   Radius Dens   Mass    Mass            Energy  Eff.  Energy
Kg       Km   g/m^2   Kg      Kg     M/s^2   Watts    %    KW/m^s  Pascals
5E5      10    50   1.57E+07  1.6E+07  10  2.43E+16  0.99  773.8  0.515915
5E5     100    50   1.57E+09  1.6E+09  10  2.36E+18  0.99  750.2  0.500159
5E5     500    50   3.93E+10  3.9E+10  10  5.89E+19  0.99  750.0  0.500006
5E5    1000    50   1.57E+11  1.57E+11 10  2.36E+20  0.99  750.0  0.500002
5E5    5000    50   3.93E+12  3.93E+12 10  5.89E+21  0.99  750.0  0.5
5E5   10000    50   1.57E+13  1.57E+13 10  2.36E+22  0.99  750.0  0.5
5E5  100000    50   1.57E+15  1.57E+15 10  2.36E+24  0.99  750.0  0.5
>

Brian
How are these %reflections figured.  Is it .99% efficiency, 99%, .0099%?
Also, are these stresses acounting for the stress at cable connection points 
or what?

>Kevin
>4) smaller sails may be better.  Why in the world you would need a sail
>the size of Luna, much less Jupiter, is beyond me.

>Kevin
>5) Thermal load is a big problem.  750 KW on .05 Kg is a big worry.
>I have not calculated the limiting temperature yet, but I am hopeful that
>titanium alloy will stand up to the load.  To do this model, I will use
>heat capacity and blackbody radiation equation.  I do not have time right
>now, but expect it soon.

Brian
Jupiter size was to make sure we could keep our now defunct retro mirror 
inside of a distance diverged beam.  A Luna sized sail was, I think, 
proposed to be certain that the E18W that we were putting into it wouldn't 
melt the thing.  Also, the models that I was working with hoped for a sail 
that weighed closer to 50g/km^2, not 50g/m^2.  But if you can keep the 
thermal load managable on say a 10km^2 sail, and keep enough power focused 
on that sail for 1E4 to 2E4 AU, then I think we have a way to at least 
launch ships via masers.



Kevin

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Cc: David , hous0042 ,
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         Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu
Subject: Re: Laser Aperture Size
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 21:58:57 -0600

At 08:50 PM 3/11/96 -0500, you wrote:

>Not if your still at near light speed.  Ignoring that, could you generate
>that much power?  How much would it take?  And how do you decel to a stop
>inside the star system?
>
If you can manage to accelerate to near light speed in 100+ days, then you
should be able to do a 180 in 300+ days. As for power, probably too much. It
doesn't matter what the propulsion method is, the amount of power necessary
to accelerate a given mass to a given velocity is constant, the only thing
that changes is how efficiently we can use that power. (Besides Forward et
al never planned on doing a turn at near light speed, they were talking
about 0.003c.)

The Lorentz idea would probably consume 3 to 4 times as much power as a
straight decel, its only advantage was that it removed the need for any
retro mirrors, reflectors, advance robot missions, etc. Decel was by light
sail on the same beam you came out on, but since you now have a vector back
the way you came, it will now decelerate you instead of acclerate you.

Of course, all this presupposes that a Sol based beam can even reach that
far. Perhaps you could use the star's light to decelerate partially for a
relatively low speed fly by then use Lorentz force to bend your vector back
around to the star again and use the star to decelerate some more?

:-)

Lee
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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From: DotarSojat@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
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Subject: Thanks
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 03:30:21 -0500

TO:   SSD Discussion Group                  March 13, 1996
FROM: Rex Finke

Thank you for including me in your design discussion group.
Thanks also to Kelly Starks for the excellent summary; it
indicates to me that you have made significant progress since
week 29 (early Feb '95), which was the last Project Newsletter
that I have read through.  I am familiar with most of your names
from your contributions up to that point.

Regarding my future contribution to "mail-box overflow," I'm not
known to be wordy.  "Terse" is the usual complaint.  But in spite
of my apparent age, I have not outgrown being an enthusiast, so
you can expect active participation.  (Note: proper time is
always less than apparent time.)

I'll hold any other remarks until after I've digested Kelly's
summary.  (I think I still should review all the old Newsletters;
it may be just as important to find out what you don't know as to
find out what you do know.)

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From: DotarSojat@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmitl.ippt.gov.pl,
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         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Close but no cigar? again
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 03:41:54 -0500

I know. I promised no more remarks until I did my homework.

The Stefan-Boltzmann law of radiation is P = s T^4, where s (the
Stefan-Boltzmann constant, usually written as the greek lower-case
letter sigma) does indeed have the value 5.67 E-8 W/(m^2 K^4).  A
black-body surface absorbing a power of 7.5E5 W/m^2 (your number)
will be heated to an ultimate equilibrium temperature Teq at which
it will reradiate all the absorbed power.  Therefore,

                   7.5E5 = 5.67E-8 Teq^4  .

So Teq equals 1907 K, below the melting temperature of titanium
(2073 K) and well below the melting temperature of tungsten.

Unless I missed something, I believe you (I don't know who,
because I haven't yet learned to read these quotes of quotes of
quotes) equated power to energy in your calculation of no cigar.

Rex Finke

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Thanks
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 12:26:47 +0100

Hello Rex,

>I'll hold any other remarks until after I've digested Kelly's
>summary.  (I think I still should review all the old Newsletters;
>it may be just as important to find out what you don't know as to
>find out what you do know.)

If you like to bite in some equations, I've a document on-line at

http://indy1.cpedu.rug.nl/~N0642983/download/calc.txt

It does some calculations for relativistic self-fueled spaceships. The math
doesn't look nice, so be warned.

Timothy

P.S. my homepage can be found there too:

http://indy1.cpedu.rug.nl/~N0642983/welcome.html

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Close but no cigar? again
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 12:26:40 +0100

>I know. I promised no more remarks until I did my homework.
>
>The Stefan-Boltzmann law of radiation is P = s T^4, where s (the
>Stefan-Boltzmann constant, usually written as the greek lower-case
>letter sigma) does indeed have the value 5.67 E-8 W/(m^2 K^4).  A
>black-body surface absorbing a power of 7.5E5 W/m^2 (your number)
>will be heated to an ultimate equilibrium temperature Teq at which
>it will reradiate all the absorbed power.  Therefore,
>
>                   7.5E5 = 5.67E-8 Teq^4  .
>
>So Teq equals 1907 K, below the melting temperature of titanium
>(2073 K) and well below the melting temperature of tungsten.
>
>Unless I missed something, I believe you (I don't know who,
>because I haven't yet learned to read these quotes of quotes of
>quotes) equated power to energy in your calculation of no cigar.
>
>Rex Finke

I was just testing if the group was paying attention (as the teacher would say)

I presented this neat formula P=s T^4 but somehow I never used it. (?!?) I
guess I was amazed too much by the simplicity of the calculation, sorry for
that.

It indeed seems to be even easier, namely just like Rex wrote above.

For those who are wondering what I calculated: the amount of energy needed
per square metre to melt the sail. This isn't necessary at all, so forget it.
Oh yeah, I told that the product of melting temperature and specific heat
was important, forget that too, only the melting temp. is important.

By the way, my latest remark about the increased surface area of a mesh
instead of a plate is still valid.

So finally we can conclude, bulls eye, two beer and some peanuts.


Timothy

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
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        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 08:03:37 -0500

At 1:28 AM 3/14/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>>>That gives for the specific impulse = 0.085c/(9.8*1) = 2.6E6
>>>
>>>So while this may look much, I think it is right. Why do you think it
>>>is not OK?
>>
>>Well one problem I have is since I don't know ow to find what speed the
>>reaction particals will be at after the reaction (I have Mev power levels
>>but I'm not sure how to use them), The equation doesn't tell me much.  For
>>example, a pound of fuel will fuse and realest its particals at x Mev.
>>What speed is that?  How much electric power can the generator convert that
>>to?  Using that electricity, how much mass can we accelerate to the ideal
>>velocity?
>
>I think the initial velocity doesn't matter since one can regulate the final
>velocity with the size of the outlet (see below).
>
>>>If you ignore energy losses, it doesn't matter, as long as you can regulate
>>>the exhaust velocity of the plasma (which should not be too hard).
>>
>>I woud think the velocity would be fixed. I can't think how to increase it
>>without adding external power.  Decreasing would probably involve taping
>>some of its power off, and giving it to a larger volume of reaction mass.
>
>No, what matters most is the pressure that is build up inside the engine.
>The higher the pressure, the higher the exhaust velocity.
>One can regulate that velocity by enlarging or reduce the ourlet.

I'm not sure that is possible with particals going a fraction of the speed
of light.  Remember the G loads my mag launcher would have needed to get to
fuel up to .3 of light.  I think the nessisary voltage presure might be
undoable.  Certainly your not talking about a normal rocket chanber
situation.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Brian Mansur 
Cc: Kevin C Houston ,
         "L. Parker" , bmansur ,
        David , jim ,
         KellySt , kgstar ,
         rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Laser Aperture Size
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 08:14:12 -0500

At 6:59 PM 3/13/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
>>From Brian
>
>>Lee?
>> The Fresnel lens has already been discounted on the basis that it
>introduces
>> chromatic aberrations into the beam, rendering it largely useless. A
>> reflecting optical system would work better.
>>
>> If you must do it with mirrors, there is no need to get complicated, just
>> build a staged design (kind of like onion rings) where the main ship
>detachs
>> large chunks of sail to function as a deceleration stage, then a slightly
>> smaller chunk as an acceleration stage to leave TC, and decelerates back
>> into Sol on the unreflected beam. Each stage would function as a mirror to
>> propel the remaining ship and sail sections in the appropriate direction.
>> This method would probably still require a Fresnel lens though.
>
>>Kevin
>>This is the design put forth by Robert Forward, the main problem is that
>>you can't get anywhere near light speed, because then the doppler shift
>>from the retreating sail will reduce the energy to near zero.
>
>And we can't figure out how to get the darn mirrors keep form, aim, and who
>knows what else!
>
>>Lee
>> As much as I like the sail concept, I still think the RAIR concept is more
>> promising. Especially if you can boost fuel into its path to increase its
>> cruise velocity. I like the idea of using sails for the fuel, though.
>
>>Kevin
>>I disagree.
>
>Brian
>At this time, I disagree as well.  Both require HUGE amounts of power to
>work because both have to get up relativistic speeds to be of any use.  The
>RAIR needs 5E16W/s (if my recalculations on Kelly's paper are correct) just
>as the sail does if we want to get up  to 1/3c.  Both need to get that power
>from someplace.

In the explorer ships case the problem is you'ld need to mine or
manufacture millions of tons of fusion isotopes to fuel it.  I'm not sure
if that much is avalible.  But if it is the power plant should be straight
forward.  The laser launchers have a reaction mass problem, but that isn't
critical.

>> I think the simplest mission in terms of hab space design is
>>going to be a 1g thrust to midpoint, then a 1G thrust to target.  The big
>>advantage, is the time dialation for the crew.
>
>Problem is Kevin, as you pointed out above, that the doplar shift shoots the
>electric bill through as you try to get speed near c.

You have to have a rotating hab section anyway since the ship is going to
be in the star system for a couple of years.

>Another problem I may have just spotted is the that the effects of impacts
>with interstellar matter increases as you approach a light-speed.  Think of
>it.  Your apparant mass (internal energy, something like that) keeps going
>up even though you keep pushing your speed infintely closer to c.  While you
>are only going .999c (I'm making these numbers up to make a point), your
>impact with that speck of dust feels as if you were going 1000c.

Drag could start geting very noticable at high light speeds.  Probably not
enough to us for breaking.   .....  Wait a minutte has anyone worked up
drage figures for these huge sails?  If they were electrically charged and
reflected all the mass in their path they'ld be slaming into hundreds of
tons a months.  At high relativistic thats got to generate some usefull
drag?

> Am I making any sense?  Do I even know what I'm talking about?  I get this
>idea from word about a superfast particle known as the "Oh My God" Particle
>(although I detest the name on the basis of religious convictions).
> Apparantly, if it were to hit Earth's atmosphere at its speed of something
>like .99999999999999999999c, it would be as if a brick were in its place.
> And that is for a particle.  Think of what a starship would be feeling from
>every interstellar hydrogen atom at that speeds.
>
>So while the time dialation advantage is enticing, its tradeoffs seem to
>make it impractical.  By the way, the design I'm working on for the Argosy
>easily accounts for the acceleration and cruise phases by using a dumbell
>centrifuge with hab modules for cruise phase and then stacking the hab
>modules on top of each other come time for accel/decel phase.  I know Kelly
>is skeptical of a dumbell setup for erosion reasons, but we may have a way
>of  protecting against that too.  Read about it in my Argosy paper when I
>send it to the group after break.


Look forward to seeing it.  If you like I'll work it into a simple web page
for inclusion in LIT?

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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Mime-Version: 1.0
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: DotarSojat@aol.com
Cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmitl.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Thanks
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 08:19:03 -0500

At 3:30 AM 3/14/96, DotarSojat@aol.com wrote:
>TO:   SSD Discussion Group                  March 13, 1996
>FROM: Rex Finke
>
>Thank you for including me in your design discussion group.
>Thanks also to Kelly Starks for the excellent summary; it
>indicates to me that you have made significant progress since
>week 29 (early Feb '95), which was the last Project Newsletter
>that I have read through.  I am familiar with most of your names
>from your contributions up to that point.
>
>Regarding my future contribution to "mail-box overflow," I'm not
>known to be wordy.  "Terse" is the usual complaint.  But in spite
>of my apparent age, I have not outgrown being an enthusiast, so
>you can expect active participation.  (Note: proper time is
>always less than apparent time.)
>
>I'll hold any other remarks until after I've digested Kelly's
>summary.  (I think I still should review all the old Newsletters;
>it may be just as important to find out what you don't know as to
>find out what you do know.)

Great, look forward to hearing from you Rex.  Really hoping you can help
fill in some blanks!

Welcome to the group.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
To: Timothy van der Linden 
CC: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Thanks
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 09:25:08 -0500

Timothy van der Linden wrote:
> If you like to bite in some equations, I've a document on-line at
> 
> http://indy1.cpedu.rug.nl/~N0642983/download/calc.txt

Timothy,
I'm getting the new LIT website ready (Kelly has been
helping test it out) - - This looks like something perfect
for inclusion.  Would you like to do an HTML version?

(I'll give everyone here an account and password at the
site so this can be a very cooperatively designed site.)

--
David Levine
Application Engineer
InterWorld Technology Ventures, Inc.
http://www.interworld.com/staff/david/
david@interworld.com

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , kgstar ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
To: zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Explorer Power Gain Problem
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 09:42:00 PST



 ----------
From: T.L.G.vanderLinden
To: KellySt; kgstar; stevev; jim; zkulpa; hous0042; rddesign; David; 
lparker; bmansur
Subject: Re: Explorer Power Gain Problem
Date: Tuesday, March 12, 1996 3:11PM

To Brian,

>>I can't confirm this, but I do know the energy numbers I worked out in the
>>Explorer page were sloppy.
>
>Brian
>Does ANYONE know the proper equations?  I'll try to find time to ask my
>phsyics professor.

I do know them, but also have noticed that it is potentially dangerous to
throw them in the ring. ;)

The formula in Kellies Explorer page is correct. The same thing you asked
about that 5 m/s, I asked Kelly some long time ago (so long that he probably
doesn't remember it anymore (no offence)).

So, bottom line, is the NUMBER right.  You only said the formula was 
correct.  Did I misunderstand you?  I keep getting 5E16W, not 5E9W.

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
        hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , kgstar ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
To: zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Argosy Mission Overhaul
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 09:45:00 PST


>From Brian,

>Brian
>Why worry about a dying drone when you have a
>million others to handle its job?  Fortunately, this system doesn't apply 
to
>human societies where we do bother to heal the sick.

>Tim
>The strength of us is that we are all different. Making us so different
>takes many years. When you would simply preprogram us, we would all make 
>the
>same mistakes and die out quickly. (This isn't a complete arguement, but I
>hope it makes you see that mass AI production may not be as nice as you
>think).

Brian
Who said that all AI's (if that is indeed what we end up needing for 
practical manned interstellar flight) are all of the same variant?

>Brian
>The Argosy design that I have in mind is, in fact, a maser driven sail
>attached to a ion rocket with a habitat that carries colonists and 
explorers
>to a starsystem already visited by Pathfinding/Pathmaking robots.  Those
>robots are assumed to have set up a maser system for decelerating the ship. 

> This solves what has always been our biggest problem, stopping.

>Tim
>Of course you still need to stop the robots (may be easier because their
>mass is smaller).

Brian
My point exactly.



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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
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        stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
To: zkulpa 
Subject: RE: Sail numbers
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 09:48:00 PST


>From Brian

>Kevin
>5) Thermal load is a big problem.  750 KW on .05 Kg is a big worry.
>I have not calculated the limiting temperature yet, but I am hopeful that
>titanium alloy will stand up to the load.  To do this model, I will use
>heat capacity and blackbody radiation equation.  I do not have time right
>now, but expect it soon.

>Tim
>Hmmm, this sounds troublesome, maybe we need to decrease the density of 
>the
>beam.
>If you've calculated it could you add some formulas so that I can check it?

Brian
If you decrease the density of the beam, you must increase the width of the 
sail to compensate for lost thrust.  Or you can just lower the weight of 
your ship.  None of these options are apealing.

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Cc: bmansur , David ,
         hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         rddesign , stevev ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Argosy Mission Overhaul
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 10:06:00 PST



 ----------
From: kgstar
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden
Cc: KellySt; kgstar; stevev; jim; zkulpa; hous0042; rddesign; David; 
lparker; bmansur
Subject: Re: Argosy Mission Overhaul
Date: Tuesday, March 12, 1996 9:51AM

At 3:11 PM 3/12/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>To Brian,
>
>>>Tim
>>>We "know" AI-robots could make anything work but that solution would be a
>>bit >too simple, unless we could come up with a rough design for such kind
>>of >robot.
>>
>>Actually, I'm assuming that robots would have limits based on their
>>programming.  I imagine that the first working, completely automated 
systems
>>would, in some ways, be less efficient in computer controled hands than if
>>humans were doing the same job.  For example: how do you think computers 
and
>>robots would have handled the job of bringing home the  Apollo 13 crew?
>
>In my opinion such robots are intelligent or they aren't (no way between).
>Say that you have figured out a machine with an IQ of 40. Then you could
>probably link them up in such a way that 10 of them together would have an
>IQ of 100.

>Kelly
>Have you ever tried putting a room full of morons together and expect them
>to do one inteligent persons work?  It doesn't work.  Mobs tend to be less
>equivelent then the sum of their parts.  Given that we have no idea on how
>to make an A.I. work its hard to tell what it could do, or what its
>limitations would be.  It could be far more inteligent than humamans, or be
>an idiot savant.  Great at one thing, and hopeless in general.

Point taken, but I see no other option than to assume that we can create 
them.   We need them to set up opposing maser arrays at TC.  And these 
robots may (or may not) be doing an "intelligent person's" work.  Even by 
2050, we can expect automation in the factory to increase even beyond what 
we have today.   We already make cars with minimal human supervision.  Why 
not maser cannons and solar arrays.  Then we build computers and program 
them to run the whole system.

Of course, if we want to lower our terminal velocity to .33c, we could 
launch our ship via maser sail and decel into TC using a 144:1 fuel ratio as 
figured in New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems.  This would allow us to 
scale down AI's to mindless robotic machines that are task specific.  We 
take some along with us to mine iron ore from asteroids for the trip home. 
 Of course, going to TC would take forever at .33c (compared to what you 
guys want).

Here is a thought I've heard before.  We could even break down the sail for 
added fuel.  Still, the extra fuel is going to increase the sail size.  And 
for the ions from the sail to be useful, they must be of the same kind. 
 Unless we could separate them during the breakdown process and feed only 
one kind of ion at a time into the ion drive.  Oh boy.   

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: David ,
        Timothy van der Linden 
Cc: bmansur , hous0042 ,
        jim , KellySt ,
        kgstar , lparker ,
        rddesign , stevev ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: RE: New Design Team Member
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 10:27:00 PST



 ----------
From: David
To: Timothy van der Linden
Cc: KellySt; kgstar; stevev; jim; zkulpa; hous0042; rddesign; lparker; 
bmansur
Subject: New Design Team Member
Date: Tuesday, March 12, 1996 9:27AM

I got this via email.  Thought he might be interested
in the continuing discussions.  Please add him to your
"To:" lists.  Thanks!

 -David

===============================================================

Subject: FYI: Rex Finke's Curriculum Vitae
  Date:  Mon, 11 Mar 1996 22:03:10 -0500
  From:  DotarSojat@aol.com
    To:  David@interworld.com


TO:   David Levine                                March 11, 1996
FROM: Rex Finke

     In view of the possibilities that 1) you might find a need
for support in an area in which I have experience, or 2) you
might like to know where I'm coming from when I send in a
comment on some topic or activity of the Starship Design Project, I am
providing you with my curriculum vitae, as follows--

REINALD G. (REX) FINKE
  

SPECIALTIES
  Systems Analysis/Modeling, Flight Mechanics, Propulsion, Heat
     Transfer

EDUCATION
  A.B., Astronomy and Physics, 1949; M.A., Physics, 1951, Ph.D.,
     Nuclear Physics, 1954; UC Berkeley

SELECTED EXPERIENCE
  Teaching Assistant, Physics, UC Berkeley, 1949-50
  Operation and maintenance of 32-MeV proton linear accelerator,
     UCRL Berkeley, 1950-54
  Fast photography for high-explosives/nuclear-explosives
testing,
     UCRL Livermore/Nevada, 1954-55
  Nuclear rocket (Project Rover) design, UCRL Livermore, 1955-57
  Nuclear ramjet (Project Pluto) design, UCRL Livermore, 1957-62
  Nuclear reactor operation, UCRL Livermore(Nevada), 1959-62
  Thermonuclear-explosives design, UCRL Livermore, 1961
  Orion pusher-plate temperature calculation, IDA, 1962
  Space station conceptual design, IDA, 1963-65
  Reusable launch vehicle conceptual design, IDA, 1964-70
  Space Shuttle design, IDA, 1969-71
  Nuclear-propulsion analysis for lunar mission, IDA, 1970
  Launch-vehicle (principally Shuttle) performance, operations
     and cost analyses, IDA, 1973-88, 1991
  Beam-weapons analyses, IDA, 1974-86, 1995
  Strategic Defense Initiative analyses, IDA, 1983-92
  Relativistic mechanics for interstellar flight, 1987-present
  Mars-mission nuclear-propulsion analysis, 1990-91
  Retired 1992; presently Adjunct Staff Member, IDA
  Author or co-author of 14 open and 75 limited-distribution
     publications
  Fellow, American Astronautical Society (conferred 1986)


Brian
Thank the Lord!  An expert.  Boy is his mailbox going to be full when I get 
back from break!  ;).

I just realized how sick that sounds.  Don't  worry, I promise to behave 
myself.  

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To: Brian Mansur 
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         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         bmansur , David ,
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         rddesign , stevev ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Argosy Mission Overhaul
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 11:42:41 -0500

At 10:06 AM 3/14/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
> ----------
>From: kgstar
>To: T.L.G.vanderLinden
>Cc: KellySt; kgstar; stevev; jim; zkulpa; hous0042; rddesign; David;
>lparker; bmansur
>Subject: Re: Argosy Mission Overhaul
>Date: Tuesday, March 12, 1996 9:51AM
>
>At 3:11 PM 3/12/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>>To Brian,
>>
>>>>Tim
>>>>We "know" AI-robots could make anything work but that solution would be a
>>>bit >too simple, unless we could come up with a rough design for such kind
>>>of >robot.
>>>
>>>Actually, I'm assuming that robots would have limits based on their
>>>programming.  I imagine that the first working, completely automated
>systems
>>>would, in some ways, be less efficient in computer controled hands than if
>>>humans were doing the same job.  For example: how do you think computers
>and
>>>robots would have handled the job of bringing home the  Apollo 13 crew?
>>
>>In my opinion such robots are intelligent or they aren't (no way between).
>>Say that you have figured out a machine with an IQ of 40. Then you could
>>probably link them up in such a way that 10 of them together would have an
>>IQ of 100.
>
>>Kelly
>>Have you ever tried putting a room full of morons together and expect them
>>to do one inteligent persons work?  It doesn't work.  Mobs tend to be less
>>equivelent then the sum of their parts.  Given that we have no idea on how
>>to make an A.I. work its hard to tell what it could do, or what its
>>limitations would be.  It could be far more inteligent than humamans, or be
>>an idiot savant.  Great at one thing, and hopeless in general.
>
>Point taken, but I see no other option than to assume that we can create
>them.   We need them to set up opposing maser arrays at TC.  And these
>robots may (or may not) be doing an "intelligent person's" work.  Even by
>2050, we can expect automation in the factory to increase even beyond what
>we have today.   We already make cars with minimal human supervision.  Why
>not maser cannons and solar arrays.  Then we build computers and program
>them to run the whole system.

The whole issue of heavy construction at the target star system(s) is a
mess. The Explorers would need a lot of minning to fuel them for the return
flight, or a lot of prefab laser launchers.  The sail systems would need to
mechaform (terraform to a machine world) a planet into a maser emmitter.
These are the weakest parts of our ideas.

Given that the A.I.s would be forced to work in an uncontroled environment
(I.E. not in a factory.) and expected to self replicate they would be way
over the top technically.

>Of course, if we want to lower our terminal velocity to .33c, we could
>launch our ship via maser sail and decel into TC using a 144:1 fuel ratio as
>figured in New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems.  This would allow us to
>scale down AI's to mindless robotic machines that are task specific.  We
>take some along with us to mine iron ore from asteroids for the trip home.
> Of course, going to TC would take forever at .33c (compared to what you
>guys want).
>
>Here is a thought I've heard before.  We could even break down the sail for
>added fuel.  Still, the extra fuel is going to increase the sail size.  And
>for the ions from the sail to be useful, they must be of the same kind.
> Unless we could separate them during the breakdown process and feed only
>one kind of ion at a time into the ion drive.  Oh boy.

Problem is, sails arn't built out of fuel.  We could use them for reaction
mass, but that doesn't help without power.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
        DotarSojat , hous0042 ,
        jim , kgstar ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" 
To: zkulpa 
Subject: RE: Thanks
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 10:54:00 PST


>From Brian

Begin excerpt
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------  
 -----------
TO:   SSD Discussion Group                  March 13, 1996
FROM: Rex Finke

Thank you for including me in your design discussion group.
Thanks also to Kelly Starks for the excellent summary; it
indicates to me that you have made significant progress since
week 29 (early Feb '95), which was the last Project Newsletter
that I have read through.  I am familiar with most of your names
from your contributions up to that point.

Regarding my future contribution to "mail-box overflow," I'm not
known to be wordy.  "Terse" is the usual complaint.  But in spite
of my apparent age, I have not outgrown being an enthusiast, so
you can expect active participation.  (Note: proper time is
always less than apparent time.)

I'll hold any other remarks until after I've digested Kelly's
summary.  (I think I still should review all the old Newsletters;
it may be just as important to find out what you don't know as to
find out what you do know.)
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------  
 -------------
End excerpt

Brian
Welcome aboard the Asimov.  Would you like to be reffered to by your first 
or last name?  Mine is Brian Vance Mansur, but you can call me Brian for the 
least amount of typing.  I'm a 20 year old student at Oklahoma Christian 
University of Science and Arts in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.  My major is 
pre-med biochemistry, but I've always been a science enthusiast (especially 
sci-fi).  LIT's starship design project seemed a unique opportunity to be at 
least a small part of helping future generations fulfill the age old dream 
of reaching out to the stars.  And in some ways, designing a ship to reach 
the heavens is like going yourself.

Since we aim to boldly go where no starship design project has gone before 
(or something like that), we could certainly use someone with your 
experience.  We have A LOT of questions pertaining to engine efficiencies, 
heat loads, AI's, . . . I'd better give my personal list after I've had a 
spring break to do my Calculus.

By the way, if you we younger, I'd tell you to log off immediately and 
consider yourself lucky that you avoided a very addictive and timeconsuming 
hobby.  This starship design project has been a source of strain to my 
classes, which is one thing I plan to correct over break.  But since you are 
retired, I should hope you have some free time.

A word of consolation (consolation in light of what we have called the 
recent e-mail avalanche) you won't hear from me nearly as much as the group 
has in the last few weeks, but I'll still be here for another month and a 
half.  Then it is off-line time until summer vacation ends.   Speaking of 
vacations, after this spring break, expect a paper detailing a maser 
launched starship design that I've named the Argosy class.  I hope it will 
end up as a permanent addition to the LIT pages, but we'll have to see if it 
gets that good.  

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Thanks
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 21:42:58 +0100

Hello David,

>I'm getting the new LIT website ready (Kelly has been
>helping test it out) - - This looks like something perfect
>for inclusion.  Would you like to do an HTML version?

Yes, that's OK, since the web site is on an IBM compatible, my Turbo Pascal
program may work there too. Can you confirm this?

Greetings Timothy

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	["1046" "Thu" "14" "March" "1996" "21:43:03" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "25" "Re: Explorer Power Gain Problem" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Explorer Power Gain Problem
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 21:43:03 +0100

To Brian,

>The formula in Kellies Explorer page is correct. The same thing you asked
>about that 5 m/s, I asked Kelly some long time ago (so long that he probably
>doesn't remember it anymore (no offence)).
>
>So, bottom line, is the NUMBER right.  You only said the formula was 
>correct.  Did I misunderstand you?  I keep getting 5E16W, not 5E9W.

The formula is right, but the number is only valid when the velocity of the
starship is 5 m/s. The problem with the document is that the meaning of the
number is not told.

So, yes, use  P = m a v  to calculate the power needed to accelerate a mass
m when it is flying at a speed v.

!! Important note: this formula is only valid for beamed energy, this means
the power P is the power from a non-moving energy source.

So since you don't want to use any form of beamed energy, you aren't a step
further. If you want to use a selfsustained ship, use the numbers that I
resently sent to the group, or check out the "calc.txt" document (and the
DOS program "calc.zip" that comes with it).

Timothy

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 16:12:26 -0500

At 9:43 PM 3/14/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>>>No, what matters most is the pressure that is build up inside the engine.
>>>The higher the pressure, the higher the exhaust velocity.
>>>One can regulate that velocity by enlarging or reduce the ourlet.
>>
>>I'm not sure that is possible with particals going a fraction of the speed
>>of light.  Remember the G loads my mag launcher would have needed to get to
>>fuel up to .3 of light.  I think the nessisary voltage presure might be
>>undoable.  Certainly your not talking about a normal rocket chanber
>>situation.
>
>Maybe you have a point there, but since we haven't any clue let me do some
>brainstorming:
>
>The pressure at one side is high anyway, namely the backside of the ship.
>Adding some extra engine walls may increase the pressure but also makes the
>efficiency better, since the first extra walls will be at the side so that
>the particle stream is more to the aft.
>
>I assume that all the particles will be ionized so that we can make the
>walls of magnetic fields. If this doesn't work, I'm not sure what would,
>since the temperature of the particles would be very high (1E6 Kelvin?).

True.  I'm starting to get woried that particals will lose energy to the
mag or voltage sheilding, rather than bounce back from the wall and out the
back.  Anyone know how relativistic reflections work?

>Another way to decrease the pressure is simply to add less power (which is
>the smartest way, I think). So then the amount of particles goes down and so
>does the pressure.
>
>Timothy

???  The power is related to the number of particals reactiong.  I.E. a
given fusion reaction releases particals with x energy each.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Fri Mar 15 01:19:43 GMT 1996
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Argosy Mission Overhaul
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 21:43:08 +0100

To Brian,

>>Tim
>>The strength of us is that we are all different. Making us so different
>>takes many years. When you would simply preprogram us, we would all make 
>>the
>>same mistakes and die out quickly. (This isn't a complete arguement, but I
>>hope it makes you see that mass AI production may not be as nice as you
>>think).
>
>Brian
>Who said that all AI's (if that is indeed what we end up needing for 
>practical manned interstellar flight) are all of the same variant?

If you plan to mass-produce them, I assume there isn't time to give them
some experiences of their own (for humans that takes at least 10 years).
But maybe, this process can be speeded up. On the otherhand, if these AIs
can learn so fast, they soon will need to be smarter and then the learning
time goes up again. (Compare that to humans, if we all would live 10,000
years, we would think that everybody under 100 years was more or less a
child, even if those childs would be as smart as todays adults.)

Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 21:43:13 +0100

>>No, what matters most is the pressure that is build up inside the engine.
>>The higher the pressure, the higher the exhaust velocity.
>>One can regulate that velocity by enlarging or reduce the ourlet.
>
>I'm not sure that is possible with particals going a fraction of the speed
>of light.  Remember the G loads my mag launcher would have needed to get to
>fuel up to .3 of light.  I think the nessisary voltage presure might be
>undoable.  Certainly your not talking about a normal rocket chanber
>situation.

Maybe you have a point there, but since we haven't any clue let me do some
brainstorming:

The pressure at one side is high anyway, namely the backside of the ship.
Adding some extra engine walls may increase the pressure but also makes the
efficiency better, since the first extra walls will be at the side so that
the particle stream is more to the aft.

I assume that all the particles will be ionized so that we can make the
walls of magnetic fields. If this doesn't work, I'm not sure what would,
since the temperature of the particles would be very high (1E6 Kelvin?).

Another way to decrease the pressure is simply to add less power (which is
the smartest way, I think). So then the amount of particles goes down and so
does the pressure.

Timothy

From popserver Fri Mar 15 01:37:25 GMT 1996
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	nil)
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From: rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric & Denisse Hedman)
To: DotarSojat@aol.com
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
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        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: Re: Thanks
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 17:29:44 -0800 (PST)

Rex;

Welcome to the group. I'm more or less the silent one. Most of the physics
is above me so I just watch.

Ric Hedman




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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
cc: David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        stevev@efn.org, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, bmansur@oc.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 00:39:14 -0500

> >to: tim
> >
> >> To Kelly,
> >
> >> >Explorer classes engines is over 2,000,000 we don't get to go.
> >
> >
> >The question was, can you get more thrust out of a pound of fusion fuel by
> >using a reactor to convert it to electricity, and use the electricity to
> >accelerate a reaction mass (ignoring engineering losses).  Or would
> >converting the fuel to high speed plasma get you more thrust.
> >
> >> >Given that the energy in the fusion reactors was all
> >> >turned into kinetic energy in the exaust plasma, I had assumed using it
> >> >directly would be most efficent.
> >

> The problem does come down to engineering efficiency unfortuneately.
Because
> we can not yet, and are not likely in the foreseeable future to realize
> performance efficiencies approaching unity (100%) then engineering is the
> stumbling block.

> Every time you cut another conversion process into the loop, I can almost
> GAURANTEE that you will lose 30% to 50% of your efficiency. If you are only
> starting out with 30 % on the first place....

?  The Fusion reactor designs by Bussard would be about 99% efficent at
converting fuel energy to electricity, and I think magnetic or voltage
accelerators are similarly effecent.

Kelly

From popserver Fri Mar 15 06:42:13 GMT 1996
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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.magec.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
         DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Mail address problems
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 00:39:08 -0500

Attention to all,
My company mail site is sometimes choaking on the old address
  kgstar@most.magec.com, Please change to kgstar@most.fw.hac.com

Kelly

From popserver Fri Mar 15 06:42:16 GMT 1996
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Message-ID: <960315003844_351764055@emout04.mail.aol.com>
From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.magec.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
         DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Explorer Power Gain Problem
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 00:38:44 -0500

> >So, bottom line, is the NUMBER right.  You only said the formula was 
> >correct.  Did I misunderstand you?  I keep getting 5E16W, not 5E9W.

> The formula is right, but the number is only valid when the velocity of the
> starship is 5 m/s. The problem with the document is that the meaning of the
> number is not told.

Now I remember.  I calculated the power the drive system would need for a one
secound boost, and assumed it would be consonstant for the flight.  I.E. if
it takes X watts to push the ship at a ship G for a secound.  Multiply that
by the number of secounds of boost to get to desired speed, and ....

Given that the engine should need to output the same power, to accelerate the
same mass, at the same rate, at diferent speeds.  It seems like it should
work.

Kelly

From popserver Fri Mar 15 06:42:18 GMT 1996
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	["1536" "Fri" "15" "March" "1996" "00:42:36" "-0500" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "32" "Re: Laser Aperture Size" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
cc: David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        stevev@efn.org, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, bmansur@oc.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu
Subject: Re: Laser Aperture Size
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 00:42:36 -0500

> >Not if your still at near light speed.  Ignoring that, could you generate
> >that much power?  How much would it take?  And how do you decel to a stop
> >inside the star system?
>
> If you can manage to accelerate to near light speed in 100+ days, then you
> should be able to do a 180 in 300+ days. As for power, probably too much.
It
> doesn't matter what the propulsion method is, the amount of power necessary
> to accelerate a given mass to a given velocity is constant, the only thing
> that changes is how efficiently we can use that power. (Besides Forward et
> al never planned on doing a turn at near light speed, they were talking
> about 0.003c.)

> The Lorentz idea would probably consume 3 to 4 times as much power as a
> straight decel, its only advantage was that it removed the need for any
> retro mirrors, reflectors, advance robot missions, etc. Decel was by light
> sail on the same beam you came out on, but since you now have a vector back
> the way you came, it will now decelerate you instead of acclerate you.

But if the Lorenz turning would take 4 times as much power, and you can't
stay on the beam (or on course) to do it.  Does it help any?



> Of course, all this presupposes that a Sol based beam can even reach that
> far. Perhaps you could use the star's light to decelerate partially for a
> relatively low speed fly by then use Lorentz force to bend your vector back
> around to the star again and use the star to decelerate some more?

Doubt it.  The star wouldn't put out enough power.

Kelly

From popserver Fri Mar 15 18:12:52 GMT 1996
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	["1629" "Fri" "15" "March" "1996" "12:58:34" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "35" "Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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Mime-Version: 1.0
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 12:58:34 +0100

>>I assume that all the particles will be ionized so that we can make the
>>walls of magnetic fields. If this doesn't work, I'm not sure what would,
>>since the temperature of the particles would be very high (1E6 Kelvin?).
>
>True.  I'm starting to get woried that particals will lose energy to the
>mag or voltage sheilding, rather than bounce back from the wall and out the
>back.  Anyone know how relativistic reflections work?

Assuming we can make a field strong enough to reflect the particles at all.

Does anyone know how and if this problem can be solved?

>>Another way to decrease the pressure is simply to add less power (which is
>>the smartest way, I think). So then the amount of particles goes down and so
>>does the pressure.
>>
>>Timothy
>
>???  The power is related to the number of particals reactiong.  I.E. a
>given fusion reaction releases particals with x energy each.

Yes, but when you decrease the amount of particles that are released, the
pressure build up is slower. This makes that the equilibrium pressure goes
down too.
Imagine a funnel in which you pour water. If you pour only a little bit of
water all goes out slowly without building up a waterlevel in the funnel. If
you pour more water, then the waterlevel in the funnel starts to rise and
the velocity of the water that comes out of the funnel increases with the
height of the waterlevel. If you pour too fast the funnel will flow over.
The level of the water can be compared with the pressure in the engine, the
amount of water poured in cna be compared with the amount of particles
(photons) released by the fusion reaction. 


Timothy

From popserver Fri Mar 15 18:12:54 GMT 1996
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Explorer Power Gain Problem
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 12:59:05 +0100

>> The formula is right, but the number is only valid when the velocity of the
>> starship is 5 m/s. The problem with the document is that the meaning of the
>> number is not told.
>
>Now I remember.  I calculated the power the drive system would need for a one
>second boost, and assumed it would be constant for the flight.  I.E. if
>it takes X watts to push the ship at a ship G for a secound.  Multiply that
>by the number of seconds of boost to get to desired speed, and ....
>
>Given that the engine should need to output the same power, to accelerate the
>same mass, at the same rate, at diferent speeds.  It seems like it should
>work.

Ah that makes some sence, you indeed can use this trick to calculate the
power needed for a self-fueled ship. But keep in mind that the mass of the
ship may decrease significantly due to the "burning" of the fuel.

Timothy

From popserver Fri Mar 15 18:13:37 GMT 1996
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	["2979" "Fri" "15" "March" "1996" "08:21:27" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "67" "Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: New idea Laser launcher/scoop systems
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 08:21:27 -0500

At 12:58 PM 3/15/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>>>I assume that all the particles will be ionized so that we can make the
>>>walls of magnetic fields. If this doesn't work, I'm not sure what would,
>>>since the temperature of the particles would be very high (1E6 Kelvin?).
>>
>>True.  I'm starting to get woried that particals will lose energy to the
>>mag or voltage sheilding, rather than bounce back from the wall and out the
>>back.  Anyone know how relativistic reflections work?
>
>Assuming we can make a field strong enough to reflect the particles at all.
>
>Does anyone know how and if this problem can be solved?

We know what the voltage evergy of the particals are 12-20 Mev.  So if we
can keep up a higher charge...

>>>Another way to decrease the pressure is simply to add less power (which is
>>>the smartest way, I think). So then the amount of particles goes down and so
>>>does the pressure.
>>>
>>>Timothy
>>
>>???  The power is related to the number of particals reactiong.  I.E. a
>>given fusion reaction releases particals with x energy each.
>
>Yes, but when you decrease the amount of particles that are released, the
>pressure build up is slower. This makes that the equilibrium pressure goes
>down too.
>Imagine a funnel in which you pour water. If you pour only a little bit of
>water all goes out slowly without building up a waterlevel in the funnel. If
>you pour more water, then the waterlevel in the funnel starts to rise and
>the velocity of the water that comes out of the funnel increases with the
>height of the waterlevel. If you pour too fast the funnel will flow over.
>The level of the water can be compared with the pressure in the engine, the
>amount of water poured in cna be compared with the amount of particles
>(photons) released by the fusion reaction.
>
>
>Timothy


??  The fusion process in question doesn't relase photons.  The particals
it does release have defined energies/speeds.  Since we want to (as far as
I remember the question) get the particals going faster.  Holding them in a
bottle isn't going to help.  It presumably would slow them down, unless we
add more energy to the bottle.  So unless we want to convert some of the
plasmas kinetic energy to electricity, and the electric used to accelerate
the rest (which doesn't sound like its worth bothering with) were probably
stuck.

With a normal rocket or jet you can boost presure because the material can
be forced through a choke where higher back presure accelerates it.  The
presure in this case however would need to be maintained by a magnetic or
electric field powered externally.  This does not appear to be practical.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Fri Mar 15 18:13:41 GMT 1996
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	["1424" "Fri" "15" "March" "1996" "08:23:31" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "36" "Re: Explorer Power Gain Problem" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Explorer Power Gain Problem
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 08:23:31 -0500

At 12:59 PM 3/15/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>>> The formula is right, but the number is only valid when the velocity of the
>>> starship is 5 m/s. The problem with the document is that the meaning of the
>>> number is not told.
>>
>>Now I remember.  I calculated the power the drive system would need for a one
>>second boost, and assumed it would be constant for the flight.  I.E. if
>>it takes X watts to push the ship at a ship G for a secound.  Multiply that
>>by the number of seconds of boost to get to desired speed, and ....
>>
>>Given that the engine should need to output the same power, to accelerate the
>>same mass, at the same rate, at diferent speeds.  It seems like it should
>>work.
>
>Ah that makes some sence, you indeed can use this trick to calculate the
>power needed for a self-fueled ship. But keep in mind that the mass of the
>ship may decrease significantly due to the "burning" of the fuel.
>
>Timothy

In my case dramatically!  Thats why I droped that and went to using fusion
rockets and standard rocket and specific impulse fuel mass consumption
numbers.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Fri Mar 15 18:14:26 GMT 1996
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	["1784" "Thu" "14" "March" "1996" "18:15:00" "PST" "Brian Mansur" "bmansur@oc.edu" nil "33" "Argosy Paper Preview" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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Encoding: 33 TEXT
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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
        DotarSojat , hous0042 ,
        jim ,
         Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender 
To: "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Argosy Paper Preview
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 18:15:00 PST


>From Brian

Since I have just 23 hours before going off-line for then next week and 
three days, I'd like to take care of a little last minute business 
concerning the Argosy paper I'm working up.

Note to Kelly Starks.  You've wanted to help out with the paper.  Thanks. 
 You should know, however, that I am still limited to BMP drawings.  Can you 
convert or compress these to something usable on the web pages?  If so, I'll 
have to send them to your e-mail account at the rate of one or two a day.  I 
apologize for this nuisance, but I just haven't been able to figure out how 
to download the other drawing programs (without going to a store and paying 
for non-sharewares).  On the bright side, the text can probably be sent in 
one letter.

Note to group:  When the Argosy paper text shows up in your mail boxes, look 
for material you wrote.  I realized after reading over some letters today 
that you guys more than often explain things better then I can.

Note about Argosy Paper Quality: I don't promise anything spectacular, just 
a summary written in similar style to the Explorer page but with a lot of 
questions left unanswered.  I'll go into pros and cons where I think it will 
help Web surfers who come across the paper (not to mention you guys who, 
like me, love to pick an idea apart).  Also, I expect that some of the text 
will come directly from the Explorer page.  All in all, however, this paper 
should be a  decent enough draft for the group to consider.

If you have anything specific that you'd like to contribute, mail me and 
I'll see if I can fit it in somewhere.  I'd especially appreciate ideas and 
weight numbers on the sail (Kevin has provided some of this data already 
which I think will end up on the paper).
You guys have a nice week.  

From popserver Fri Mar 15 18:14:29 GMT 1996
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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
        DotarSojat , hous0042 ,
        jim , KellySt ,
         kgstar , lparker ,
         rddesign , stevev 
To: "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Argosy Mission Overhaul
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 17:51:00 PST



 ----------
From: T.L.G.vanderLinden
To: KellySt; kgstar; stevev; jim; zkulpa; hous0042; rddesign; David; 
lparker; bmansur; DotarSojat
Subject: Re: Argosy Mission Overhaul
Date: Thursday, March 14, 1996 9:43PM

To Brian,

>>Tim
>>The strength of us is that we are all different. Making us so different
>>takes many years. When you would simply preprogram us, we would all make
>>the
>>same mistakes and die out quickly. (This isn't a complete arguement, but I
>>hope it makes you see that mass AI production may not be as nice as you
>>think).
>
>Brian
>Who said that all AI's (if that is indeed what we end up needing for
>practical manned interstellar flight) are all of the same variant?

>Tim
>If you plan to mass-produce them, I assume there isn't time to give them
>some experiences of their own (for humans that takes at least 10 years).
>But maybe, this process can be speeded up. On the otherhand, if these AIs
>can learn so fast, they soon will need to be smarter and then the learning
>time goes up again. (Compare that to humans, if we all would live 10,000
>years, we would think that everybody under 100 years was more or less a
>child, even if those childs would be as smart as todays adults.)

Brian
Who says that AI's can't be "programmed" to be smart with info gained by 
other AI's.  Before you comment on that loaded line, I'd like to say that I 
do see where this discussion is leading.  It is headed into a dead end so 
I'll restate something someone else said.  We don't have a _clue_ as to what 
AI capabilities will be, so there is no real point in arguing about them. 
 There are perhaps more variables to contend with in the development of 
Automated Robot Civilizations (ARCs) than there are in the designing of a 
manned, roundtrip, high speed starship.

Even though I don't have any real idea how these ARCs could be designed, I 
do know that they are all but indespensible to any manned, roundtrip 
 interstellar effort that could hope to minimize the flight time to 
something managable.  That is the bottom line.  We have to have them to 
support our power infrastructure.  Even Kelly's fuel canister idea needs the 
ARCs to mine the fuel and RM needed to launch the incredibly heavy Explorer 
class ion rocket.  It will have to be heavy because it has to slow down 
using onboard fuel.  Even an anti-matter driven starship, which is starting 
to seem like the next logical design to follow after maser sails, will 
require the face of Mercury to be covered in solar energy collectors.  Those 
collectors will convert the Sun's energy to Anti-matter through methods we 
haven't conceived.

It is so frustrating being stuck in the 1990s while trying to design a ship 
whose technology is really at least 100 years beyond our reach.  But since 
the tech is 100+ years away, we have to make some assumptions, which I 
believe include ARCs.  Do you agree?

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
        DotarSojat , hous0042 ,
        jim , KellySt ,
         kgstar , lparker ,
         rddesign , stevev 
To: "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: RE: Mail address problems
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 96 10:04:00 PST


>Kelly
>Attention to all,
>My company mail site is sometimes choaking on the old address
>  kgstar@most.magec.com, Please change to kgstar@most.fw.hac.com

Brian
This is only a test of my e-mail system.

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Brian Mansur 
Cc: bmansur , David ,
        DotarSojat , hous0042 ,
        jim ,
         Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
         lparker , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender 
Subject: Re: Argosy Paper Preview
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 11:16:48 -0500

At 6:15 PM 3/14/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
>>From Brian
>
>Since I have just 23 hours before going off-line for then next week and
>three days, I'd like to take care of a little last minute business
>concerning the Argosy paper I'm working up.
>
>Note to Kelly Starks.  You've wanted to help out with the paper.  Thanks.
> You should know, however, that I am still limited to BMP drawings.  Can you
>convert or compress these to something usable on the web pages?  If so, I'll
>have to send them to your e-mail account at the rate of one or two a day.  I
>apologize for this nuisance, but I just haven't been able to figure out how
>to download the other drawing programs (without going to a store and paying
>for non-sharewares).  On the bright side, the text can probably be sent in
>one letter.

Hum, I'll see waht I can find.  I don't remember using BMP, but I might be
able to find a conversion.

>Note to group:  When the Argosy paper text shows up in your mail boxes, look
>for material you wrote.  I realized after reading over some letters today
>that you guys more than often explain things better then I can.
>
>Note about Argosy Paper Quality: I don't promise anything spectacular, just
>a summary written in similar style to the Explorer page but with a lot of
>questions left unanswered.  I'll go into pros and cons where I think it will
>help Web surfers who come across the paper (not to mention you guys who,
>like me, love to pick an idea apart).  Also, I expect that some of the text
>will come directly from the Explorer page.  All in all, however, this paper
>should be a  decent enough draft for the group to consider.
>
>If you have anything specific that you'd like to contribute, mail me and
>I'll see if I can fit it in somewhere.  I'd especially appreciate ideas and
>weight numbers on the sail (Kevin has provided some of this data already
>which I think will end up on the paper).
>You guys have a nice week.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: Brian Mansur 
To: DotarSojat , rddesign 
Cc: bmansur , David ,
         hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Thanks
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 96 10:10:00 PST


>From Brian

>Ric
>To Rex;
>
>Welcome to the group. I'm more or less the silent one. Most of the physics
>is above me so I just watch.

Brian
Ric Hedman: nice to hear from you.  I was beginning to wonder whose address 
rddesign was.



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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Brian Mansur 
Cc: bmansur , David ,
        DotarSojat , hous0042 ,
        jim , KellySt ,
         kgstar , lparker ,
        rddesign , stevev 
Subject: RE: Mail address problems
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 11:30:36 -0500

At 10:04 AM 3/15/96, Brian Mansur wrote:
>>Kelly
>>Attention to all,
>>My company mail site is sometimes choaking on the old address
>>  kgstar@most.magec.com, Please change to kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
>
>Brian
>This is only a test of my e-mail system.

Congratulations!!  You passed.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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	["1496" "Fri" "15" "March" "1996" "11:35:48" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "34" "Re: Laser Aperture Size" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
cc: Brian Mansur , "L. Parker" ,
        David , jim ,
         KellySt , kgstar ,
         rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Laser Aperture Size
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 11:35:48 -0600 (CST)



Kelly:
> Brian:
> >Another problem I may have just spotted is the that the effects of impacts
> >with interstellar matter increases as you approach a light-speed.  Think of
> >it.  Your apparant mass (internal energy, something like that) keeps going
> >up even though you keep pushing your speed infintely closer to c.  While you
> >are only going .999c (I'm making these numbers up to make a point), your
> >impact with that speck of dust feels as if you were going 1000c.

there are two distinct effects 
applicable here.  The first is the apparent mass increase (hydrogens will 
feel like berylliums (7Be).  The second effect is that of space 
contraction.  you will impact seven light-days of space every day at 
..9905 of C. 

Kelly:
> Drag could start geting very noticable at high light speeds.  Probably not
> enough to us for breaking.   .....  Wait a minutte has anyone worked up
> drage figures for these huge sails?  If they were electrically charged and
> reflected all the mass in their path they'ld be slaming into hundreds of
> tons a months.  At high relativistic thats got to generate some usefull
> drag?
>

I did for my initial MARS study, I found that with a 500 Km Radius sail, 
it would generate ~1 G of Decell as long as you stayed above ~.93 of C.
then it drops off rapidly until it accounts for less than .1Garound .88 
of C.  Please Note that this is for a solid sail, and not for a mesh.  a 
charged mesh might behave as a solid sheet, but Iam not certain.


kevin

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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Brian Mansur 
cc: bmansur , David ,
        jim , KellySt ,
        kgstar , lparker ,
        rddesign , stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: RE: Sail numbers
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 11:50:52 -0600 (CST)

Brian:
> >Kevin:
> >5) Thermal load is a big problem.  750 KW on .05 Kg is a big worry.

> >Tim:
> >Hmmm, this sounds troublesome, maybe we need to decrease the density of 
> >the
> >beam.
> >If you've calculated it could you add some formulas so that I can check it?
> 
> Brian:
> If you decrease the density of the beam, you must increase the width of the 
> sail to compensate for lost thrust.  Or you can just lower the weight of 
> your ship.  None of these options are apealing.
> 
But if you increase the radius of the sail, then it's mass goes up.  if 
you decrease the areal density, then the limiting energy goes down.
Tim or Rex, what is the equilibrium temp of the sail?

Kevin

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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: KellySt@aol.com
cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.magec.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Explorer Power Gain Problem
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 12:11:03 -0600 (CST)


Kelly:
> Now I remember.  I calculated the power the drive system would need for a one
> secound boost, and assumed it would be consonstant for the flight.  I.E. if
> it takes X watts to push the ship at a ship G for a secound.  Multiply that
> by the number of secounds of boost to get to desired speed, and ....
> 
> Given that the engine should need to output the same power, to accelerate the
> same mass, at the same rate, at diferent speeds.  It seems like it should
> work.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but if this is a mass based fuel system, then 
the mass of the fuel tank is going down constantly, and therefore the 
total mass of the ship is not the same

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Kevin C Houston 
Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Brian Mansur ,
         "L. Parker" , David ,
        jim , KellySt ,
         rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Laser Aperture Size
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 13:31:56 -0500

At 11:35 AM 3/15/96, Kevin C Houston wrote:
>Kelly:
>> Brian:
>> >Another problem I may have just spotted is the that the effects of impacts
>> >with interstellar matter increases as you approach a light-speed.  Think of
>> >it.  Your apparant mass (internal energy, something like that) keeps going
>> >up even though you keep pushing your speed infintely closer to c.  While you
>> >are only going .999c (I'm making these numbers up to make a point), your
>> >impact with that speck of dust feels as if you were going 1000c.
>
>there are two distinct effects
>applicable here.  The first is the apparent mass increase (hydrogens will
>feel like berylliums (7Be).  The second effect is that of space
>contraction.  you will impact seven light-days of space every day at
>.9905 of C.
>
>Kelly:
>> Drag could start geting very noticable at high light speeds.  Probably not
>> enough to us for breaking.   .....  Wait a minutte has anyone worked up
>> drage figures for these huge sails?  If they were electrically charged and
>> reflected all the mass in their path they'ld be slaming into hundreds of
>> tons a months.  At high relativistic thats got to generate some usefull
>> drag?
>>
>
>I did for my initial MARS study, I found that with a 500 Km Radius sail,
>it would generate ~1 G of Decell as long as you stayed above ~.93 of C.
>then it drops off rapidly until it accounts for less than .1Garound .88
>of C.  Please Note that this is for a solid sail, and not for a mesh.  a
>charged mesh might behave as a solid sheet, but Iam not certain.
>
>
>kevin

!!!  If your getting about a G of decel out of a charged sail, You could
adgust the sail so it only reflected absorbed enough to keep the sail
charged.  (It would act like a sheet as long as the voltage could stop the
mass farther out then the gaps in the mesh.)  Given that that power should
be much less than the amount to push the ship at 1G.  You'ld cut your
forward thrust, and THE SAIL WOULD ACT LIKE A BRAKE!  That might be the way
to get your ship stoped at the target system.


Why didn't you follow up on, or talk more about this?  Whats the dragdrop off?

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Kevin C Houston 
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,
        kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
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        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Explorer Power Gain Problem
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 13:33:19 -0500

At 12:11 PM 3/15/96, Kevin C Houston wrote:
>Kelly:
>> Now I remember.  I calculated the power the drive system would need for a one
>> secound boost, and assumed it would be consonstant for the flight.  I.E. if
>> it takes X watts to push the ship at a ship G for a secound.  Multiply that
>> by the number of secounds of boost to get to desired speed, and ....
>>
>> Given that the engine should need to output the same power, to accelerate the
>> same mass, at the same rate, at diferent speeds.  It seems like it should
>> work.
>
>Sorry to burst your bubble, but if this is a mass based fuel system, then
>the mass of the fuel tank is going down constantly, and therefore the
>total mass of the ship is not the same

I know, that was the other reason I droped that methould of power calculation.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Brian Mansur 
cc: interstellar drive group , David ,
        jim , KellySt ,
         kgstar , lparker ,
        rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: RE:
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 11:21:41 -0600 (CST)


> >Kevin
> Ship's  Sail  Sail   Sail    Total   Accel   Maser   Refl  Excess  Stress
> Mass   Radius Dens   Mass    Mass            Energy  Eff.  Energy
> Kg       Km   g/m^2   Kg      Kg     M/s^2   Watts    %    KW/m^s  Pascals
> 5E5      10    50   1.57E+07  1.6E+07  10  2.43E+16  0.99  773.8  0.515915
> 5E5     100    50   1.57E+09  1.6E+09  10  2.36E+18  0.99  750.2  0.500159
> 5E5     500    50   3.93E+10  3.9E+10  10  5.89E+19  0.99  750.0  0.500006
> 5E5    1000    50   1.57E+11  1.57E+11 10  2.36E+20  0.99  750.0  0.500002
> 5E5    5000    50   3.93E+12  3.93E+12 10  5.89E+21  0.99  750.0  0.5
> 5E5   10000    50   1.57E+13  1.57E+13 10  2.36E+22  0.99  750.0  0.5
> 5E5  100000    50   1.57E+15  1.57E+15 10  2.36E+24  0.99  750.0  0.5
> >
> 
> Brian:
> How are these %reflections figured.  Is it .99% efficiency, 99%, .0099%?

..99 is 99% I just pulled that number from air.

> Also, are these stresses acounting for the stress at cable connection points 
> or what?

This stress is on a per meter basis.  so if you attached a cable to each 
square meter, that would be the stress on each cable.  but since that 
would be rather wasteful, I would suggest one cable for every 10 by 10 
meter area.  this would increase the stress to 50 pascals per cable.

> 
> >Kevin
> >4) smaller sails may be better.  Why in the world you would need a sail
> >the size of Luna, much less Jupiter, is beyond me.
> 
> >Kevin
> >5) Thermal load is a big problem.  750 KW on .05 Kg is a big worry.
> >I have not calculated the limiting temperature yet, but I am hopeful that
> >titanium alloy will stand up to the load.  To do this model, I will use
> >heat capacity and blackbody radiation equation.  I do not have time right
> >now, but expect it soon.
> 
> Brian
> Jupiter size was to make sure we could keep our now defunct retro mirror 
> inside of a distance diverged beam.  A Luna sized sail was, I think, 
> proposed to be certain that the E18W that we were putting into it wouldn't 

but with my idea for launching the decell beam ahead of the ship, we 
don't need a jup sized RR.  and my table above, shows that increasing the 
size, increases the mass, which increases the energy needed which 
increases the thermal load...... etc etc etc.  thus, the smaller the sail 
the better

> melt the thing.  Also, the models that I was working with hoped for a sail 
> that weighed closer to 50g/km^2, not 50g/m^2.  But if you can keep the 
> thermal load managable on say a 10km^2 sail, and keep enough power focused 
> on that sail for 1E4 to 2E4 AU, then I think we have a way to at least 
> launch ships via masers.
> 
> 
> 
> Kevin
Kevin

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Kevin C Houston 
Cc: interstellar drive group , David@interworld.com,
        DotarSojat@aol.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, KellySt@aol.com,
        kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, Steve VanDevender ,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re: BMP, Gif, Jpg, Wmf.
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 13:56:52 -0500

At 12:39 PM 3/15/96, Kevin C Houston wrote:
>To Brian et al.
>
>I have many graphics conversion programs,  If you want to send the .bmp
>files to me, I can convert them to any relevent graphics format.
>
>I used this to convert a Powerpoint graphic into a .gif for my asimov
>webpage.  the Idea was totally wacked, so I took it off my server.
>but the graphics were just fine.  I have found that i can convert almost
>anything into almost anything.  You can either send the pictures to me via
>E-mail, or you can put them on your web page, and then i can
>download/convert/re-install.  If David gets the LIT server up, then I
>think we could use that as a FTP site.
>
>Kevin
 That would work.  We need to convert them to .gif or JPEG for web use
anyway.  If someone could get them onto the new LIT in a folder named
Argose, and send me the text with "INSERT PICTURE 1 HERE" marked in it, I
can do some light web things to it.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Kevin C Houston ,
         Brian Mansur ,
         "L. Parker" ,
         jim , KellySt ,
        rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Laser Aperture Size
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 14:02:57 -0500

At 1:46 PM 3/15/96, David Levine wrote:
>Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>
>> At 11:35 AM 3/15/96, Kevin C Houston wrote:
>
>> >it would generate ~1 G of Decell as long as you stayed above ~.93 of C.
>> >then it drops off rapidly until it accounts for less than .1Garound .88
>> >of C.  Please Note that this is for a solid sail, and not for a mesh.  a
>
>> Why didn't you follow up on, or talk more about this?  Whats the
>>dragdrop off?
>
>It sounds like the decelleration is miniscule
>at fairly high speeds (0.5c) where we'd still
>need a bunch more decelleration.

Humm I missed the .1 G at around .88 part.  Still if you could rig out a
LARGE, light, charged, microwave transparent  drag chute or mag scoop.  It
could get a good fraction of a G of drag.  Given time dialation would cut
the crews apparent trip time way down.  They could afford to spend a couple
years deceling down to a low C fraction that we could brake from by rocket.
It beats all this nonsence about reflector sails!


>--
>David Levine
>Application Engineer
>InterWorld Technology Ventures, Inc.
>http://www.interworld.com/staff/david/
>david@interworld.com

Much more professional signature.  ;)

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
CC: Kevin C Houston ,
         Brian Mansur ,
         "L. Parker" ,
         jim , KellySt ,
        rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Laser Aperture Size
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 13:46:08 -0500

Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:

> At 11:35 AM 3/15/96, Kevin C Houston wrote:

> >it would generate ~1 G of Decell as long as you stayed above ~.93 of C.
> >then it drops off rapidly until it accounts for less than .1Garound .88
> >of C.  Please Note that this is for a solid sail, and not for a mesh.  a

> Why didn't you follow up on, or talk more about this?  Whats the dragdrop off?

It sounds like the decelleration is miniscule
at fairly high speeds (0.5c) where we'd still
need a bunch more decelleration.

--
David Levine
Application Engineer
InterWorld Technology Ventures, Inc.
http://www.interworld.com/staff/david/
david@interworld.com

From popserver Fri Mar 15 20:34:39 GMT 1996
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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Brian Mansur ,
         "L. Parker" , David ,
        jim , KellySt ,
         rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Laser Aperture Size
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 13:01:28 -0600 (CST)


Kelly:
> !!!  If your getting about a G of decel out of a charged sail, You could
> adgust the sail so it only reflected absorbed enough to keep the sail
> charged.  (It would act like a sheet as long as the voltage could stop the
> mass farther out then the gaps in the mesh.)  Given that that power should
> be much less than the amount to push the ship at 1G.  You'ld cut your
> forward thrust, and THE SAIL WOULD ACT LIKE A BRAKE!  That might be the way
> to get your ship stoped at the target system.
> 
> 
> Why didn't you follow up on, or talk more about this?  Whats the dragdrop off?
> 

As I said, The dropoff is rapid (from the crew's point of view) and 
leaves the ship going about .88(I have the numbers at home) of C.  I n 
addition, the sail would be subjected to extreme stress.  While this 
might be acceptable if you are expecting to use a lineac to finish your 
decell, it's too risky IMHO if you are expecting  are expecting to finish 
off with a sail.

Kevin

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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: interstellar drive group , David@interworld.com,
        DotarSojat@aol.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, KellySt@aol.com,
        kgstar@most.magec.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, Steve VanDevender ,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: BMP, Gif, Jpg, Wmf.
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 12:39:06 -0600 (CST)

To Brian et al.

I have many graphics conversion programs,  If you want to send the .bmp 
files to me, I can convert them to any relevent graphics format.

I used this to convert a Powerpoint graphic into a .gif for my asimov 
webpage.  the Idea was totally wacked, so I took it off my server.
but the graphics were just fine.  I have found that i can convert almost 
anything into almost anything.  You can either send the pictures to me via 
E-mail, or you can put them on your web page, and then i can 
download/convert/re-install.  If David gets the LIT server up, then I 
think we could use that as a FTP site.

Kevin

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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
cc: David Levine ,
         Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Brian Mansur ,
         "L. Parker" ,
         jim , KellySt ,
        rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Drag chutes.
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 13:21:09 -0600 (CST)

To: Kelly. (et al.)

the main problem of a drag chute, is the thinness of ICM.  The chutes 
only seem to work at high % of C (well above .80).  we can't decell at a 
lower fraction of G than we accelerated at, or else we would have to 
start much earlier(in effect, moving the midpoint much closer to Sol)
this would then cut down the top possible speed. because you had less 
time of 1 G accel.  I think a Drag chute would work for a MARS, because 
you could save a large amount of RM by using the Chute (for about a month 
of Crew's time if I recall correctly), Then you could cut the sail loose, 
which would dropp the ship's mass by about half.  i still have some slim 
hopes for the MARS, but I am going to need to spend a lot of time digging 
into it.  if you want to calculate drags, go ahead.  but be warned.  i 
will send the numbers tommorrow (yes, Gov workers sometimes work on Sat.) 
but I don't think it will help slow us downvery much.

Kevin

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Kevin C Houston 
Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        David Levine , Brian Mansur ,
        "L. Parker" ,
         jim , KellySt ,
         rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Drag chutes.
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 15:00:23 -0500

At 1:21 PM 3/15/96, Kevin C Houston wrote:
>To: Kelly. (et al.)
>
>the main problem of a drag chute, is the thinness of ICM.  The chutes
>only seem to work at high % of C (well above .80).  we can't decell at a
>lower fraction of G than we accelerated at, or else we would have to
>start much earlier(in effect, moving the midpoint much closer to Sol)
>this would then cut down the top possible speed. because you had less
>time of 1 G accel.  I think a Drag chute would work for a MARS, because
>you could save a large amount of RM by using the Chute (for about a month
>of Crew's time if I recall correctly), Then you could cut the sail loose,
>which would dropp the ship's mass by about half.  i still have some slim
>hopes for the MARS, but I am going to need to spend a lot of time digging
>into it.  if you want to calculate drags, go ahead.  but be warned.  i
>will send the numbers tommorrow (yes, Gov workers sometimes work on Sat.)
>but I don't think it will help slow us downvery much.
>
>Kevin

Hey, its worth a try.  We're desperate.  ;)

Calculating it would be a bear thou.  You'ld have to balence crew time over
distence traveled vs drag by speed ratios.  Still, I guess relativistic
numbers would pretty much drop out below .6 C.  So atleast you'ld have
linear effects.  Pity I hate programing Excel.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: DotarSojat@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmitl.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Equations for relativistic calculations
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 15:39:56 -0500

Timothy wrote, on 3/14/96 at 06:27 EST:
> If you like to bite in some equations, I've a document on-line at
>
> http://indyl.cpedu.rug.nl/~N0642983/download/calc.txt

When I try to contact that URL, I get the message--

    "Netscape is unable to locate the server:
     indyl.cpedu.rug.nl
     The server does not have a DNS entry."

Help!  What am I doing wrong?

I'd very much like to see the equations.  That's precisely the
subject I'm most interested in.

Also, will someone please tell me why I get email returned that
is addressed to zkulpa@zmitl.ippt.gov.pl?  It says "Host unknown
(Name server: zmitl.ippt.gov.pl: host not found)".

I am a late arrival at the Internet.  I thought I had no need for
it until I read about a "Starship Design Home Page" in the
September/October 1995 issue of Ad Astra.

Rex

From popserver Fri Mar 15 21:05:58 GMT 1996
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	["1194" "Fri" "15" "March" "1996" "15:01:00" "-0600" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "38" "Re: Equations for relativistic calculations" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: DotarSojat@aol.com
cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmitl.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Equations for relativistic calculations
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 15:01:00 -0600 (CST)



On Fri, 15 Mar 1996 DotarSojat@aol.com wrote:

> Timothy wrote, on 3/14/96 at 06:27 EST:
> > If you like to bite in some equations, I've a document on-line at
> >
> > http://indyl.cpedu.rug.nl/~N0642983/download/calc.txt
> 
> When I try to contact that URL, I get the message--
> 
>     "Netscape is unable to locate the server:
>      indyl.cpedu.rug.nl
>      The server does not have a DNS entry."

try indy1.cpedu
instead of indyL.cpedu (note: cap "L" for clarity)


> Also, will someone please tell me why I get email returned that
> is addressed to zkulpa@zmitl.ippt.gov.pl?  It says "Host unknown
> (Name server: zmitl.ippt.gov.pl: host not found)".

I know for a fact that the address is zmit1 (with a number 1) other than 
that your address looks okay.  you might try using a different font, one 
that clearly differentiates between one (1) and 'El' (l) and between
zero (0) and 'Oh' (O)

> 
> I am a late arrival at the Internet.  I thought I had no need for
> it until I read about a "Starship Design Home Page" in the
> September/October 1995 issue of Ad Astra.
> 

We were featured in Ad Astra ?!?  WoW!  Cool.  I feel so honored to be a 
part of this from the beginning.

Kevin

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: DotarSojat@aol.com
Cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmitl.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Equations for relativistic calculations
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 16:14:43 -0500

At 3:39 PM 3/15/96, DotarSojat@aol.com wrote:
>Timothy wrote, on 3/14/96 at 06:27 EST:
>> If you like to bite in some equations, I've a document on-line at
>>
>> http://indyl.cpedu.rug.nl/~N0642983/download/calc.txt
>
>When I try to contact that URL, I get the message--
>
>    "Netscape is unable to locate the server:
>     indyl.cpedu.rug.nl
>     The server does not have a DNS entry."
>
>Help!  What am I doing wrong?

Don't panic, it could be the server is having a bad day.  Or the net link
to whatever country nl is might be bad.

>I'd very much like to see the equations.  That's precisely the
>subject I'm most interested in.
>
>Also, will someone please tell me why I get email returned that
>is addressed to zkulpa@zmitl.ippt.gov.pl?  It says "Host unknown
>(Name server: zmitl.ippt.gov.pl: host not found)".

I only got this once, so I assume that it was just a problem in poland (pl).

>I am a late arrival at the Internet.  I thought I had no need for
>it until I read about a "Starship Design Home Page" in the
>September/October 1995 issue of Ad Astra.
>
>Rex

Trust us there is a lot out here, but it doesn't always work right.  (Check
out the LIT list of related topics for other space related topics on the
web.

Hope you feel we are worth it.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Sat Mar 16 04:01:22 GMT 1996
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	["1920" "Fri" "15" "March" "1996" "17:26:53" "-0500" "DotarSojat@aol.com" "DotarSojat@aol.com" nil "38" "Re: Re: Thanks, from Brian" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: DotarSojat@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmitl.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Thanks, from Brian
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 17:26:53 -0500

Brian                                       Mar 15, 1996

Your chosen field of biochemistry is certainly key to solving
the life-support problems of long-term space flight.  Unfortun-
ately, until NASA has successfully accomplished a crewed Mars
mission, I feel that attempting to define the technology re-
quirements of long-term life-support systems for interstellar
flight will be futile.  We need real-world, empirical knowledge
of the interactions between the crew and their environment and
among the crew members.  And before the Mars mission, I believe
that the most significant step that NASA could take to lay the
groundwork for that mission, both in addressing the life-support
technological concerns and in stimulating public interest and
support for a Mars mission, would be to do Biosphere II right.

If consideration of long-term life-support systems (as well as
related human-factors provisions) for interstellar flight should
be postponed until Mars experience is available, not so with
propulsion systems for interstellar flight.  A competent trans-
Mars propulsion system can be assembled from today's state of
the art (as I show in a 1993 IDA Paper "Entry Velocities at
Mars and Earth for Short Transit Times").  A propulsion system
for interstellar flight, however, is not only well beyond our
current propulsion technology, but it stretches our projections
of current physics to the breaking point.

I don't know what was discussed in the recent "email avalanche"
(it happened before I came on the scene), but from subsequent
quotes attributed to Brian and your mention of "questions per-
taining to engine efficiencies, heat loads, AI's, . .", I need
have no concern that you are uncomfortable with the emphasis on
physics over biochemistry.

Anyhow, thanks for the opportunity to get up on my soapbox and
air some of my biases.  I won't promise not to do this again
whenever I have a chance.

Rex

From popserver Sat Mar 16 20:40:21 GMT 1996
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	["1416" "Sat" "16" "March" "1996" "13:42:03" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "38" "Re: Equations for relativistic calculations" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Equations for relativistic calculations
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 13:42:03 +0100

>>> If you like to bite in some equations, I've a document on-line at
>>>
>>> http://indyl.cpedu.rug.nl/~N0642983/download/calc.txt
>>
>>When I try to contact that URL, I get the message--
>>
>>    "Netscape is unable to locate the server:
>>     indyl.cpedu.rug.nl
>>     The server does not have a DNS entry."
>>
>>Help!  What am I doing wrong?
>
>Don't panic, it could be the server is having a bad day.  Or the net link
>to whatever country nl is might be bad.

Yes, Kevin is right about the 1 and the L. If possible you should try
pasting and copying URLs (that's what they are called) with your mouse, that
often saves a lot of trouble. (the same for E-mail addresses)

NL stand for the largest country in the World ;) , namely The Netherlands.
You may also try "www" instead of "indy1", so that makes:

http://www.cpedu.rug.nl/~N0642983/download/calc.txt

A week ago, suddenly the alias www-address didn't work anymore, but the
actual indy1-address did. It seems that now, both adresses work, that is
from within the Netherlands at least.

>>I am a late arrival at the Internet.  I thought I had no need for
>>it until I read about a "Starship Design Home Page" in the
>>September/October 1995 issue of Ad Astra.

There is much more on the net (but do come back), and it is growing every
day, no one can keep up with the flow of information, sigh...

Timothy

P.S. Do you know the use of smilies?  :)  ;)  :(

From popserver Sat Mar 16 20:40:23 GMT 1996
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	["1230" "Sat" "16" "March" "1996" "13:42:15" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "25" "Re: BMP, Gif, Jpg, Wmf." "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: BMP, Gif, Jpg, Wmf.
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 13:42:15 +0100

To Kevin,

>I have many graphics conversion programs,  If you want to send the .bmp 
>files to me, I can convert them to any relevent graphics format.

Try finding "Alchemy" it's a DOS-based program, it can convert hundreds of
formats! If you found it (or want me to put it on the web), I can give you a
patch to remove the shareware protection that prevents converting larger images
The program is 670 Kb when compressed and isn't the most userfriendly
program I haven't seen, but who cares, it is ideal when converting a bunch
of the same imageformats.

>I used this to convert a Powerpoint graphic into a .gif for my asimov 
>webpage.  the Idea was totally wacked, so I took it off my server.
>but the graphics were just fine.  I have found that i can convert almost 
>anything into almost anything.  You can either send the pictures to me via 
>E-mail, or you can put them on your web page, and then i can 
>download/convert/re-install.  If David gets the LIT server up, then I 
>think we could use that as a FTP site.

There are also a few ftp-sites where you can upload some stuff, it will than
stay there for one or two days for everybody who wants it.
I don't know these sites by head, but heard that they exist.

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Fusion shielding and particle acceleration
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 13:42:41 +0100

To Kelly,

>>Does anyone know how and if this problem can be solved?
>
>We know what the voltage evergy of the particals are 12-20 Mev.  So if we
>can keep up a higher charge...

I think that 20 Mev is not too bad.

>??  The fusion process in question doesn't relase photons.  The particals
>it does release have defined energies/speeds.

Yes, I assume you are right.

>Since we want to (as far as
>I remember the question) get the particals going faster.  Holding them in a
>bottle isn't going to help.  It presumably would slow them down, unless we
>add more energy to the bottle.

Yes, I hadn't done any calculations yet, so didn't know if we had to
accelerate them or decelerate them. So indeed we need to increase the
pressure in the bottle, the energy comes from the ongoing fusion process.

>With a normal rocket or jet you can boost presure because the material can
>be forced through a choke where higher back presure accelerates it.  The
>pressure in this case however would need to be maintained by a magnetic or
>electric field powered externally.  This does not appear to be practical.

Assuming v = 0.085c = 8.75E7 m/s the kinetic energy in Joules = 0.5*m*v^2
Assuming we are talking about 4He the mass = 4*1.66E-27 = 2.66E-26 kg
That gives E = 0.5*(2.66E-26)*(8.75E7)^2 = 1E-10 Joule
Converting to electron volts: 1E-10/1.6E-19=6.35E8 eV or 635 MeV

That's about 30 times higher than we need for a minimum (shielding the
engine itself). I think this is doable, maybe not practical, but either is
flying to the stars.

Timothy


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	["1913" "Sat" "16" "March" "1996" "13:42:48" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "39" "The future..." "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: The future...
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 13:42:48 +0100

To Brian,

>Who says that AI's can't be "programmed" to be smart with info gained by 
>other AI's.  Before you comment on that loaded line, I'd like to say that I 
>do see where this discussion is leading.  It is headed into a dead end

It was not my purpose at all to kill the idea, since it was hypothetical
from the start. I just wanted to make clear that I thought the AI would
either be smart or they wouldn't. In that small exchange of thoughts, you
implied that AIs wouldn't need an individual learning process. I must say
though that programming the AIs with a mixture of "knowledge/experiences"
from older AIs is something I had not yet though of, but sounds like a very
good idea.
I guess the makers of Startrek had tought of that too, when creating the
Cyborgs with their collective memory.

>so I'll restate something someone else said.  We don't have a _clue_ as to
what 
>AI capabilities will be, so there is no real point in arguing about them. 

As I already said, they will be smart or they won't. No point to argue about ;)

> There are perhaps more variables to contend with in the development of 
>Automated Robot Civilizations (ARCs) than there are in the designing of a 
>manned, roundtrip, high speed starship.

>It is so frustrating being stuck in the 1990s while trying to design a ship 
>whose technology is really at least 100 years beyond our reach.  But since 
>the tech is 100+ years away, we have to make some assumptions, which I 
>believe include ARCs.  Do you agree?

Yes, although I for mining and other large scale projects I "see" that AI
controlled nanotechonolgy will be even more ultimate than plain robots. But
too look at it from a completely different viewpoint, I "see" that there
will be new sources of energy, that have just started bubbeling or will
start in the years to come. These new sources will bring with them physics
that we could not dream of yet.

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: RE: Sail numbers
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 13:43:04 +0100

To Kevin

>But if you increase the radius of the sail, then it's mass goes up.  if 
>you decrease the areal density, then the limiting energy goes down.
>Tim or Rex, what is the equilibrium temp of the sail?

I'm not sure, the equilibrium between what? I don't see a equilibrium, only
a minumum or maximum.

(Does the density of the beam stay constant?)

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Programming
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 13:43:09 +0100

Kelly wrote:

Pity I hate programing Excel.

Isn't it possible for you to get some BASIC or Pascal programming tool?

Timothy

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Web stuff
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 18:43:02 -0500

Subject: Spacecraft/Vehicle Level Cost Model
From: Kelley Cyr 
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 11:11:18 -0600
Message-ID: <313C75B6.7A82@jsc.nasa.gov>

The Spacecraft/Vehicle Level Cost Model is now available on the World 
Wide Web at http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/bu2/SVLCM.html.  This is a simple 
online cost model that provides a useful method for quick turnaround 
cost estimates requiring only rough, order-of-magnitude precision. The 
model can be used to estimate the development and production cost for 
spacecraft, launch vehicle stages, engines and scientific instruments. 
The SVLCM is a top-level implementation of the NASA Cost Model 
(NASCOM). The SVLCM is written in Netscape's JavaScript and requires 
Netscape Navigator 2.0 or another browser with JavaScript capability.

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Web
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 19:07:30 -0500

ubject: new link for Space Exploration
From: neill@sunfs.math.usu.edu (Brandon Neill)
Date: 11 Mar 96 11:45:54 MDT
Message-ID: <1996Mar11.114554.76342@cc.usu.edu>

I am trying to put together a WWW page for space exploration.  It doesn't
look like much yet but I would appreciate any comments or suggestions.

http://ashton.lib.dixie.edu/~bneill/space

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
         stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Programming
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 19:12:27 -0500

There is a plan (on paper) to use shuttle derived vehicles to help 
go back to the moon.  Check out http://exploration.jsc.nasa.gov (if 
that's not it, go to http://www.jsc.nasa.gov and follow the links to 
the exploration pages) for information.

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        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Laser Aperture Size
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 21:03:07 -0600

At 12:42 AM 3/15/96 -0500, you wrote:

>
>But if the Lorenz turning would take 4 times as much power, and you can't
>stay on the beam (or on course) to do it.  Does it help any?
>
Probably not, but it is an alternative to consider.

Lee
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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From: "L. Parker" 
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Laser Aperture Size
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 21:28:11 -0600

At 01:31 PM 3/15/96 -0500, you wrote:
>
>!!!  If your getting about a G of decel out of a charged sail, You could
>adgust the sail so it only reflected absorbed enough to keep the sail
>charged.  (It would act like a sheet as long as the voltage could stop the
>mass farther out then the gaps in the mesh.)  Given that that power should
>be much less than the amount to push the ship at 1G.  You'ld cut your
>forward thrust, and THE SAIL WOULD ACT LIKE A BRAKE!  That might be the way
>to get your ship stoped at the target system.
>
>
>Why didn't you follow up on, or talk more about this?  Whats the dragdrop off?
>
It is called magnetic scoop deceleration or an electrostatic drag screen. It
can also be done similarly to the Lorentz Force turning  by simply trailing
charged wires.

For an elastic sail the equation is:

V(s)=2*A*p*m(p)*[(V(s)^2)/M(s)]

for an inelastic sail the equation is:

V(s)=A*p*m(p)*[(V(s)^2)/M(s)]

Where A=scoop field area, p=interstellar ion density, M(p)=proton mass,
V(s)=ship velocity, and M(s)=ship mass. Because of the V(s)^2 factor in
these equations, deceleration eficiency decreases rapidly as the ship
decelerates.

Other than as something to be concerned about as far as drag goes, this
method will not generate sufficient deceleration to be useful in
decelerating from near light speed. As a braking method for a ship that was
accelerated purely via sail to a maximum velocity of about .2c to .3c, it
might be feasible, but you will be looking at a 20 to 25 year deceleration
even then.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Programming
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:02:28 -0500

> Isn't it possible for you to get some BASIC or Pascal 
> programming tool?

> Timothy

The office only uses ADA (which is a pain for small programs), and I don't
have anything at home.  Actually I haven't done much coding in 8 years.

Kelly

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
         DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: The future...
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:02:34 -0500

>>It is so frustrating being stuck in the 1990s while trying to design a ship

>>whose technology is really at least 100 years beyond our reach.  But since 
>>the tech is 100+ years away, we have to make some assumptions, which I 
>>believe include ARCs.  Do you agree?

> Yes, although I for mining and other large scale projects 
> I "see" that AI controlled nanotechonolgy will be even 
> more ultimate than plain robots. But too look at it 
> from a completely different viewpoint, I "see" that 
> there will be new sources of energy, that have just 
> started bubbeling or will start in the years to come. 
> These new sources will bring with them physics
> that we could not dream of yet.

Yes, I keep remembering physisists I've read muttering about possible forms
of direct total matter conversion, zero point quantum energy, and other
tricks that would solve most of our problems.  (Not to mention faster than
light drives!)  We're like the Wright brothers trying to scope out a space
shuttle design!  ("First you cover your wooden struts with lots of light
weight fire brick and resin....")   

Frustrating!

Kelly

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: DotarSojat@aol.com
Cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmitl.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Thanks, from Brian
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:22:11 -0500

At 5:26 PM 3/15/96, DotarSojat@aol.com wrote:
>Brian                                       Mar 15, 1996
>
>Your chosen field of biochemistry is certainly key to solving
>the life-support problems of long-term space flight.  Unfortun-
>ately, until NASA has successfully accomplished a crewed Mars
>mission, I feel that attempting to define the technology re-
>quirements of long-term life-support systems for interstellar
>flight will be futile.  We need real-world, empirical knowledge
>of the interactions between the crew and their environment and
>among the crew members.  And before the Mars mission, I believe
>that the most significant step that NASA could take to lay the
>groundwork for that mission, both in addressing the life-support
>technological concerns and in stimulating public interest and
>support for a Mars mission, would be to do Biosphere II right.

We do have a couple decades of submarine experience.  Not as long term as a
Mars or interstellar flight, but far more successfull than Biosphere-II.
;)

Air and water recycling is probably not to much of a problem (and we found
food was a non-issue), but I do worry about trace contamination.  Decades
in a sealed building could get toxic without some good decontamination
equipment.

>If consideration of long-term life-support systems (as well as
>related human-factors provisions) for interstellar flight should
>be postponed until Mars experience is available, not so with
>propulsion systems for interstellar flight.  A competent trans-
>Mars propulsion system can be assembled from today's state of
>the art (as I show in a 1993 IDA Paper "Entry Velocities at
>Mars and Earth for Short Transit Times").  A propulsion system
>for interstellar flight, however, is not only well beyond our
>current propulsion technology, but it stretches our projections
>of current physics to the breaking point.

I'ld be interested in your Mars paper.  Perhaps you could publish it on the
nearer term sections of the new LIT site?

Unfortunatly I tend to concur with you analysis of interstellar propulsion.
Our ideas are possible within the relm of physics, but laughable within
the world of the pragmatic.  But we try to remain optimistic about coming
up with something.


Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: "L. Parker" 
Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39),
        David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Laser Aperture Size
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:27:13 -0500

At 9:28 PM 3/16/96, L. Parker wrote:
>At 01:31 PM 3/15/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>!!!  If your getting about a G of decel out of a charged sail, You could
>>adgust the sail so it only reflected absorbed enough to keep the sail
>>charged.  (It would act like a sheet as long as the voltage could stop the
>>mass farther out then the gaps in the mesh.)  Given that that power should
>>be much less than the amount to push the ship at 1G.  You'ld cut your
>>forward thrust, and THE SAIL WOULD ACT LIKE A BRAKE!  That might be the way
>>to get your ship stoped at the target system.
>>
>>
>>Why didn't you follow up on, or talk more about this?  Whats the dragdrop off?
>>
>It is called magnetic scoop deceleration or an electrostatic drag screen. It
>can also be done similarly to the Lorentz Force turning  by simply trailing
>charged wires.
>
>For an elastic sail the equation is:
>
>V(s)=2*A*p*m(p)*[(V(s)^2)/M(s)]
>
>for an inelastic sail the equation is:
>
>V(s)=A*p*m(p)*[(V(s)^2)/M(s)]
>
>Where A=scoop field area, p=interstellar ion density, M(p)=proton mass,
>V(s)=ship velocity, and M(s)=ship mass. Because of the V(s)^2 factor in
>these equations, deceleration eficiency decreases rapidly as the ship
>decelerates.
>
>Other than as something to be concerned about as far as drag goes, this
>method will not generate sufficient deceleration to be useful in
>decelerating from near light speed. As a braking method for a ship that was
>accelerated purely via sail to a maximum velocity of about .2c to .3c, it
>might be feasible, but you will be looking at a 20 to 25 year deceleration
>even then.

Ouch, if we could get down to .2-.3 I'ld figure we could do the rest by
rocket.  But if we're talking about that kind of time to get down to .3c it
won't help much.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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	["6912" "Mon" "18" "March" "1996" "09:30:57" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "250" "IPS" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
To: Timothy van der Linden 
CC: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: IPS
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:30:57 -0500

This was posted recently on sci.space.tech.  I had mentioned
these guys back when we passed our one year anniversary.  At
the time their site was totally empty - no content at all.
I checked recently and there was still no real content, and
they're charging people for membership.  Anyway, for what
it's worth, here's what they posted.... (they've been
getting some good press... always makes me feel depressed...
you guys have been working so much for so long, and no
one knows...)

(BTW, Forward and Matloff are both in on this).

-----------------------------------------------------------

Subject: 
            Interstellar Propulsion Society 
       Date: 
            17 Mar 1996 06:51:15 GMT 
       From: 
            jhujsak@cts.com (John Hujsak)
Organization: 
            CTS Network Services 
 Newsgroups: 
            sci.space.shuttle, sci.space.tech, 
alt.starfleet.rpg, alt.startrek.creative, alt.startrek.klingon, 
aus.sf.star-trek,
            de.rec.sf.startrek, rec.arts.sf.starwars.misc


Interstellar Propulsion Society
Membership Division Announcement


In 1963, Dr. William Pickering, then President of the American
Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics, predicted that a 
hundred
years hence humans will travel to other star systems at 
relativistic
velocities. More than thirty years have passed since Dr. 
Pickering's
affirmation and we are still far from achieving this lofty goal. 
Most
of the progress to date has been made by a relatively small 
group of
independent research scientists scattered around the world, 
working
largely in isolation.

The distances between stars are vast when compared to normal 
human
scales of measure. Our nearest stellar neighbor worthy of 
exploration,
Alpha Centauri, would take over 40 years to reach at a velocity 
of 10%
of the speed of light. Significant breakthroughs in physics and
technology are needed to reduce this transit time to the point 
where
the human race can begin exploration of our neighboring stellar
systems.

The Interstellar Propulsion Society was founded as a non-profit
organization with a single objective ... To accelerate 
scientific and
engineering advancements in space propulsion leading to robotic 
and
manned missions to other star systems at fractional light 
speeds,
relativistic velocities, and beyond. The Society has no other 
agenda.
Its sole purpose is to provide a medium for scientists and 
engineers
around the world to join in collaborative research efforts that 
advance
interstellar propulsion theory and technology.

The recent emergence of the  Internet, World Wide Web, digital 
library
systems, collaborative work tools and other related technologies 
now
provides the basis for constructing a worldwide research center 
in
cyberspace. Their wide availability and low cost enable 
participation
by research scientists with very modest means, located in 
distant
corners of the world. The Interstellar Propulsion Society is now
constructing this virtual research center.

The Society is supporting collaborative research through a 
number of
mechanisms:

* An on-line digital research library for consolidating the 
results from
  past and ongoing  research efforts

* A quarterly newsletter for distribution to all members

* A professional peer-review research journal

* A World Wide Web based newsgroup for Society members at all 
levels

* Participation in advanced propulsion studies with major 
centers
  such as NASA

* Collaborative research tools and support services to 
facilitate
  distributed projects conducted by Society members

* Society funded scientific research in high-risk, high-payoff
  areas

The Society is structured for three basic levels of 
participation, a
Professional class, a Patron class and a Corporate class. 
Professional
membership is designed for those who wish to participate toward 
the
Society's objectives through scientific and engineering 
contributions.
Patron membership is open to the general public, a worldwide
constituency that has a  high interest in the challenge of 
interstellar
travel and believes that one day it will happen. Corporate 
membership
is reserved for industries and institutions that are interested 
in
fostering the basic research that leads to the Society's 
objectives.

The Interstellar Propulsion Society is currently represented by 
eleven
different countries:

          - Argentina
          - Australia
          - Bahrain
          - Canada
          - Germany
          - Greece
          - Italy
          - Poland
          - Russia
          - United Kingdom
          - United States

Within the next near we hope to double this number.

The Interstellar Propulsion Society is now uniquely positioned 
to
continue the momentum of research in advanced space propulsion. 
The
realization of this depends on your participation. Please join 
us for a
year of exciting research and activities. The Society Web site 
is
located at:

          http://www.tyrian.com/IPS/

The site and all of its resources are open to the general 
public.

Application forms for membership at all levels can be downloaded 
from
the Society Web site. If you currently lack Web access you may 
email
your request to:

          IPSmembership@tyrian.com

or mail your request to:

Interstellar Propulsion Society
12675 Danielson Court, Suite 414
Poway, CA 92064
USA

Regards,


Jonathan T. Hujsak
President
Interstellar Propulsion Society

----------------------------------------------------------------
-------

IPS Organizational Structure

Dr. Dana Andrews -
        Boeing Defense and Space Group
Dr. James R. Arnold -
        University of California, San Diego
Dr. Stanley Borowski -
        NASA Lewis Research Center
Brice N. Cassenti -
        United technologies Research Center
Dr. Anton M. Chernenko -
        Space Research Institute (IKI), Russia
Dr. Robert L. Forward -
        Forward Unlimited
Dr. Nathan J. Hoffman -
        Energy Technology Engineering Center
Dr. Geoffrey Landis -
        Nyma Inc.
Dr. Michael R. LaPointe -
        Horizon Technologies Development Group
Dr. A.R. (Tony) Martin -
        AEA Technology, UK Professor
Greg Matloff -
        NYU
Dr. Franklin B. Mead, Jr. -
        Phillips Laboratory
Marc Millis -
        NASA/Lewis Research Center
Declan J. O'Donnell -
        Attorney at Law
Dr. Gerald A. Smith -
        Pennsylvania State University
Dr. Robert Zubrin -
        Martin Marietta Strategic Systems

Jonathan T. Hujsak, President
Douglas Tabor, Communications Dir.
Robert W. Ryan, Secretary & CFO
Dr. William P. Shine, Programs Dir.
Burton S. Brockett, Art & Graphics Dir.

Journal of the IPS:
        Editor in Chief: Marc Millis, NASA Lewis Research Center

----------------------------------------------------------------
-------








--
David Levine
Application Engineer
InterWorld Technology Ventures, Inc.
http://www.interworld.com/staff/david/
david@interworld.com

From popserver Mon Mar 18 19:22:35 GMT 1996
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	["1226" "Mon" "18" "March" "1996" "09:53:06" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "33" "Re: IPS" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
Cc: Timothy van der Linden ,
        KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: IPS
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:53:06 -0500

At 9:30 AM 3/18/96, David Levine wrote:
>This was posted recently on sci.space.tech.  I had mentioned
>these guys back when we passed our one year anniversary.  At
>the time their site was totally empty - no content at all.
>I checked recently and there was still no real content, and
>they're charging people for membership.  Anyway, for what
>it's worth, here's what they posted.... (they've been
>getting some good press... always makes me feel depressed...
>you guys have been working so much for so long, and no
>one knows...)
>
>(BTW, Forward and Matloff are both in on this).
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------

Well don't feel bad Dave.  They might not have done anything, but most
everybody on the list has serious credentials.  So what the lack in action.
They make up for in prestigue.  ;)

We could see about submitting something?  Or being cross linked?

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Mon Mar 18 23:10:28 GMT 1996
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	["363" "Mon" "18" "March" "1996" "23:30:27" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "12" "Re: Programming" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Programming
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 23:30:27 +0100

To Kelly,

>> Isn't it possible for you to get some BASIC or Pascal 
>> programming tool?
>
>The office only uses ADA (which is a pain for small programs), and I don't
>have anything at home.  Actually I haven't done much coding in 8 years.

Microsoft DOS always included some form of BASIC with its operating system,
doesn't the Mac have something similar?

Tim

From popserver Mon Mar 18 23:10:36 GMT 1996
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	["2036" "Mon" "18" "March" "1996" "17:47:57" "-0500" "DotarSojat@aol.com" "DotarSojat@aol.com" nil "39" "Re: Re: The future...etc." "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: DotarSojat@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Re: The future...etc.
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:47:57 -0500

Kelly and some unidentified person he quotes on 3/17/96 at
11:02 am (I plan someday to be able to decipher your quotes)
say that it is "frustrating being stuck in the 1990s while
trying to design a ship whose technology is really at least
100 years beyond our reach."

What would you think about modifying the purpose of the Project
slightly?  In a Reusable Launch Vehicle Study I ran 30 years
ago (my, how time flies!), we had a purpose you might consider
for this Project.  The purpose was (paraphrased, because the
Report is in my office 26 miles away, and I don't plan on
going in there in the near future) (1) to make an internally
consistent comparison of the different options, with conceptual
design only in enough detail to allow rating them regarding
feasibility and cost, and (2) to determine the advancements in
technology in relation to current levels required to make them
achievable.  While that study mainly considered options
consistent with a decision to develop the Space Shuttle only
five years hence (which we didn't know at that time), it spent
a lot of time examining the competitive standing and techno-
logical requirements for scramjets (aka "the Aerospaceplane"),
which may still be decades in the future today.

Such a comparative study could be a guide to steer future
efforts away from the losers, but mainly would provide the
"mission push" to support advancement in the key technologies.

Rex

P.S. To David: While the Interstellar Propulsion Society may
provide a forum to publish sophisticated technical papers, I
view the LIT/SSD as a forum to stimulate and shape the minds
of the emerging generation, who will be around to accomplish
the goals.  I would rather participate in stimulating enthus-
iasm than in deferring to existing authority.  It's a lot
more rewarding to figure how it should be done than to con-
tribute to extending the status quo.  It's better to be part
of an organization where what you say is more important than
how you say it.  I could go on and on...                   -Rex

From popserver Mon Mar 18 23:10:39 GMT 1996
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	["1024" "Mon" "18" "March" "1996" "23:50:45" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "31" "Re: IPS" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: IPS
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 23:50:45 +0100

To David,

>This was posted recently on sci.space.tech.  I had mentioned
>these guys back when we passed our one year anniversary.  At
>the time their site was totally empty - no content at all.
>I checked recently and there was still no real content, and
>they're charging people for membership.

No wonder, the site is still empty, who wants to pay for nothing,
I remember the time that you told us about IPS, then I added it to my
bookmarks, but now it is long gone.

>Anyway, for what
>it's worth, here's what they posted.... (they've been
>getting some good press... always makes me feel depressed...
>you guys have been working so much for so long, and no
>one knows...)

That they get the press is because they all have dr. for their names.

Maybe our upcoming site will offer better possibilities.

The old LIT-page was made mostly by members, where are these people?

>(BTW, Forward and Matloff are both in on this).
Interstellar Propulsion Society

I know Forward but what makes Matlof a special person?


Timothy

From popserver Mon Mar 18 23:31:13 GMT 1996
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	["384" "Mon" "18" "March" "1996" "18:24:27" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "15" "Re: IPS" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
To: Timothy van der Linden 
CC: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: IPS
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 18:24:27 -0500

Timothy van der Linden wrote:
> >(BTW, Forward and Matloff are both in on this).
> Interstellar Propulsion Society
> 
> I know Forward but what makes Matlof a special person?

He wrote the Starflight Handbook, I think.  Quite a good
book, actually.

--
David Levine
Application Engineer
InterWorld Technology Ventures, Inc.
http://www.interworld.com/staff/david/
david@interworld.com

From popserver Wed Mar 20 00:41:09 GMT 1996
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: DotarSojat@aol.com
Cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: Re: The future...etc.
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:21:32 -0500

At 5:47 PM 3/18/96, DotarSojat@aol.com wrote:
>Kelly and some unidentified person he quotes on 3/17/96 at
>11:02 am (I plan someday to be able to decipher your quotes)
>say that it is "frustrating being stuck in the 1990s while
>trying to design a ship whose technology is really at least
>100 years beyond our reach."
>
>What would you think about modifying the purpose of the Project
>slightly?  In a Reusable Launch Vehicle Study I ran 30 years
>ago (my, how time flies!), we had a purpose you might consider
>for this Project.  The purpose was (paraphrased, because the
>Report is in my office 26 miles away, and I don't plan on
>going in there in the near future) (1) to make an internally
>consistent comparison of the different options, with conceptual
>design only in enough detail to allow rating them regarding
>feasibility and cost, and (2) to determine the advancements in
>technology in relation to current levels required to make them
>achievable. ---

Thats a couple of twisted sentences.  Dave was interested in a space
development section to complement the starship design section.  Though
launchers near term seem to have settled on the SSTO as bets choice, a
comparison could be interesting.


Humm, but then that topic gets a lot of coverage already.

Oh, did I send you a copy of my fusion shuttle idea?  I suppose the old
Explorer page would covered it.

>--- While that study mainly considered options
>consistent with a decision to develop the Space Shuttle only
>five years hence (which we didn't know at that time), it spent
>a lot of time examining the competitive standing and techno-
>logical requirements for scramjets (aka "the Aerospaceplane"),
>which may still be decades in the future today.

Humm, I helped write a mission studies paper on NASP when I was at JSC.
Had a few contacxts in the McDonnel Douglas NASP program until it started
to fold up a few years back.

>Such a comparative study could be a guide to steer future
>efforts away from the losers, but mainly would provide the
>"mission push" to support advancement in the key technologies.
>
>Rex
>
>P.S. To David: While the Interstellar Propulsion Society may
>provide a forum to publish sophisticated technical papers, I
>view the LIT/SSD as a forum to stimulate and shape the minds
>of the emerging generation, who will be around to accomplish
>the goals.  I would rather participate in stimulating enthus-
>iasm than in deferring to existing authority.  It's a lot
>more rewarding to figure how it should be done than to con-
>tribute to extending the status quo.  It's better to be part
>of an organization where what you say is more important than
>how you say it.  I could go on and on...                   -Rex

IPS does seem like a refernce forum of papers (to be added later) rather
than a discussion forum.  That was one big advantage LITs newsletters gave
it.  The ability to participate hands on without a couple PhDs.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Wed Mar 20 00:41:18 GMT 1996
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	["1098" "Tue" "19" "March" "1996" "08:12:03" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "34" "Re: Programming" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Programming
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:12:03 -0500

At 11:30 PM 3/18/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>To Kelly,
>
>>> Isn't it possible for you to get some BASIC or Pascal
>>> programming tool?
>>
>>The office only uses ADA (which is a pain for small programs), and I don't
>>have anything at home.  Actually I haven't done much coding in 8 years.
>
>Microsoft DOS always included some form of BASIC with its operating system,
>doesn't the Mac have something similar?
>
>Tim

They have scripting functions and a ton of extra systems extensions and
utility programs, but not a programing languge.  Apple assumed most of
their customers would not be developers.  So a free programing language
wouldn't be of much interest.

Though I suppose I could plug the equations into the 3d graphing utility
they hand out?  Humm.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Wed Mar 20 00:41:25 GMT 1996
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	["446" "Tue" "19" "March" "1996" "09:30:14" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "13" "Re: The future...etc." "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
CC: DotarSojat@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: The future...etc.
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:30:14 -0500

By the way, gang, I'm going to be going on vacation
Thursday afternoon (3/21) to the Sunday after next
(3/31?).  So once I leave I won't be available until
April 1st.  I'm almost frightened to see my email
mailbox after I get back.  I hope our system will keep
a few hundred messages for me on the server... :)

--
David Levine
Application Engineer
InterWorld Technology Ventures, Inc.
http://www.interworld.com/staff/david/
david@interworld.com

From popserver Wed Mar 20 00:41:32 GMT 1996
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 , DotarSojat@aol.com,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: Re: The future...etc.
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:19:44 -0500

At 9:30 AM 3/19/96, David Levine wrote:
>By the way, gang, I'm going to be going on vacation
>Thursday afternoon (3/21) to the Sunday after next
>(3/31?).  So once I leave I won't be available until
>April 1st.  I'm almost frightened to see my email
>mailbox after I get back.  I hope our system will keep
>a few hundred messages for me on the server... :)

Have fun.  We'll try to be gental.     

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Wed Mar 20 00:42:51 GMT 1996
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	["1061" "Tue" "19" "March" "1996" "15:28:05" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "25" "LIT VS ISP  THE NAME?" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David@interworld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,
        kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
Subject: LIT VS ISP  THE NAME?
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:28:05 -0500

Dave mentioned his anoyance over the lack of visibility of LIT in
comparison to ISP before, and I commented that LIT may not be a good
name/frount end.  If you pop into the LIT home page and see Lunar Institute
of Technology 2032 and all the rest.  You might be forgiven in assuming it
was a science fiction club or something.  It hardly sounds like a serious
attempt fourm for discussion of space or star flight.  (Presentation is
everything.)  Possibly putting the starship design project under another
home page (or its own home page), or renaming LIT to something more serious
sounding might help get us some visibility as a serious forum.  Certainly
the starship design project seems to have most of the interest.

Comments?

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Wed Mar 20 00:43:10 GMT 1996
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	["4605" "Tue" "19" "March" "1996" "22:34:51" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "92" "Re: Cyber-Rights position on IPS charges" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com, B.J.Westerbeek@rcondw.rug.nl
Subject: Re: Cyber-Rights position on IPS charges
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 22:34:51 +0100


Message forwarded by Timothy van der Linden

********************************************************************************

Title  : TRAFFIC JAMS ON THE INTERNET
Type   : Press Release
NSF Org: OD / LPA
Date   : March 14, 1996
File   : pr968


Media only contact:
Beth Gaston                                                      March 14, 1996
(703) 306-1070/egaston@nsf.gov                                      NSF PR 96-8


All others contact:
Mark Luker
(703) 306-1950/mluker@nsf.gov

TRAFFIC JAMS ON THE INTERNET:
New Connections Program to force Internet Technology

        While the Internet grows in popularity, a related problem is growing:
traffic jams.  The increased demand of more people on-line using increasingly
sophisticated tools has caused delays in transmission unacceptable for some
scientific uses.

        The National Science Foundation has introduced a new twist to its
connections program: emphasizing innovative solutions that may have broad
implications for all Internet users.  The program will look for meritorious
applications that require high performance networking, and will then fund
development by university and college campus network service providers.
Technology developed for this program will likely affect future operation of
the Internet.

        The technology will introduce the idea of prioritization to Internet
traffic. For example, if planning to use the U.S. Postal Service to send a
package, you have options: overnight mail, first-class service, or third-class
service.  The rate of the package delivery is contingent on how it is
designated.  Freeways around major cities often have either express toll roads
or high-occupancy-vehicle lanes to bypass congested areas.  Similarly, NSF's
connections program is expected to spur the development of switches and
routers to help alleviate bottlenecks of information.

        "There is no single solution.  We hope this grant program will
stimulate the development of a technological option for the Internet, to
introduce prioritization and provide a new style of connection that gives a
guaranteed level of service at a national level," said Mark Luker, manager of
NSF's connections program.

        Currently on the Internet, all packets of information are treated
alike. While this worked fine before the popularization of the Internet, it
now interferes with some uses that require high performance service.  One
example is to use high performance connections of multiple small computers  to
create a large workstation cluster distributed across the nation.  The
Internet is currently too congested for such a system.  Teleconferencing or
videoconferencing also places too great a need on the current capacity.  And,
some scientific instrumentation requires specific fast connections, though not
necessarily high bandwidth.  Interruptions or delays caused by Internet
congestion could be fatal to experiments.

        One solution might include prioritization of traffic on the Internet.
Another solution might involve diverting specially coded traffic to high
performance, special use networks, such as NSF's vBNS (very high speed
Backbone Network Service).

-end-

NSF was created as an independent federal agency in 1950, uniquely charged
with promoting the progress of all fields of science and engineering.  Today,
as a leader and steward of the nation's science research base, NSF supports
both research and education through competitive grants to about 2,000
universities and other institutions.  NSF receives some 60,000 research
proposals each year and funds about one-third of them.  ** News releases and
tipsheets are available electronically on NSFnews.  To subscribe, send an
e-mail message to listmanager@nsf.gov.  In the body of the message, type
"subscribe nsfnews" and then type your name.  For more guidance, send a "help"
message to listmanager@nsf.gov.  Also see the NSF Home Page (http://
www.nsf.gov), under News of Interest.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
End of pr968.txt
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 ~=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=~=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=~-~=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=~=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=~
 Posted by Andrew Oram  - andyo@ora.com - Moderator: CYBER-RIGHTS (CPSR)
   Cyber-Rights:  http://www.cpsr.org/cpsr/nii/cyber-rights/
                  ftp://www.cpsr.org/cpsr/nii/cyber-rights/Library/
   CyberJournal:  (WWW or FTP) --> ftp://ftp.iol.ie/users/rkmoore
 Materials may be reposted in their _entirety_ for non-commercial use.
 ~=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=~=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=~-~=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=~=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=~

From popserver Wed Mar 20 00:43:32 GMT 1996
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	["618" "Tue" "19" "March" "1996" "23:35:18" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "18" "Re: Programming" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Programming
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:35:18 +0100

To Kelly,

>>Microsoft DOS always included some form of BASIC with its operating system,
>>doesn't the Mac have something similar?
>
>They have scripting functions and a ton of extra systems extensions and
>utility programs, but not a programing languge.  Apple assumed most of
>their customers would not be developers.  So a free programing language
>wouldn't be of much interest.
>
>Though I suppose I could plug the equations into the 3d graphing utility
>they hand out?  Humm.

Well, Windows doesn't have a standard programming utility either.

Probably the userfriendlyness means no programming allowed.

Timothy

From popserver Wed Mar 20 00:43:34 GMT 1996
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	["2764" "Tue" "19" "March" "1996" "23:35:33" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "59" "Re: LIT VS ISP  THE NAME?" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: LIT VS ISP  THE NAME?
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:35:33 +0100

>Dave mentioned his anoyance over the lack of visibility of LIT in
>comparison to ISP before, and I commented that LIT may not be a good
>name/frount end.  If you pop into the LIT home page and see Lunar Institute
>of Technology 2032 and all the rest.  You might be forgiven in assuming it
>was a science fiction club or something.  It hardly sounds like a serious
>attempt fourm for discussion of space or star flight.  (Presentation is
>everything.)  Possibly putting the starship design project under another
>home page (or its own home page), or renaming LIT to something more serious
>sounding might help get us some visibility as a serious forum.  Certainly
>the starship design project seems to have most of the interest.
>
>Comments?

Forgive me if I say something that isn't correct, it's a long time since I
checked the LIT-site.

What I always like about a site is instant information what it is about
exactly, so that I don't have to look through several pages to figure out
what it is about. I remember that when I first visited the site, I had a lot
of trouble finding out what it was about.
Unfortunately I cannot remember what it was that catched my imagination, I
only know that I decided to join the mailing group, just to look what it was
about. Then after seeing that I could add some useful things to the
discussion, I started writing messages.

So shortly, we need a better entry, something that leads right into the
heart of LIT, there it should show clearly what LIT is and why people should
or should not join and/or contribute.
I know there is some info about what LIT is, but it is just not enough. What
is enough is the amount of reference information (then again can there ever
be ENOUGH of that?)

What also confused me when visiting LIT several years ago, was that it
seemed as if it was set up for a schoolproject. I first thought that is was
a more or less private university campus discussion.

Oh yeah, I often had to wait rather long before that LIT-logo was loaded,
I'm not sure what was/is the reason (it was not my bandwith). I guess the
LIT-site was just slow.

Some other idea to get more interest could be to mail in listservers with
people that may be side interested (eg. free-energy list, I've seen that
here are some people there who have some technical background and might be
interested in our group)


OK, that's it I think, just some phases I went through after having found my
way to the Internet.

(I can remember myself writing to someone telling that his page looked
great, wow, was I a newbie, although it always is nice to hear something
from your readers...)


Timothy


P.S. I never had the impression that it would be a sci-fi club, it all
looked rather serious (as far as this whole idea can be serious)

From popserver Wed Mar 20 00:54:52 GMT 1996
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	["479" "Tue" "19" "March" "1996" "17:45:08" "-0500" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "15" "Re: LIT VS ISP  THE NAME?" "^From:" nil nil "3" nil nil nil nil]
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Organization: InterWorld (Really Cool Stuff Division)
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References: <199603192236.AA04809@student.utwente.nl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
From: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
To: Timothy van der Linden 
CC: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: LIT VS ISP  THE NAME?
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:45:08 -0500

Timothy van der Linden wrote:
> Oh yeah, I often had to wait rather long before that LIT-logo was loaded,
> I'm not sure what was/is the reason (it was not my bandwith). I guess the
> LIT-site was just slow.

Me, too.  LIT runs on SunSITE, a very popular site.  It runs
on a T1, but it's not enough.  They are about to upgrade to
a T3, though.

--
David Levine
Application Engineer
InterWorld Technology Ventures, Inc.
http://www.interworld.com/staff/david/
david@interworld.com

From popserver Wed Mar 20 02:54:04 GMT 1996
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From: KellySt@aol.com
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:48:16 -0500

ell, Windows doesn't have a standard programming utility
> either.

> Probably the userfriendlyness means no programming 
> allowed.

> Timothy

Or perhaps everybody decided they had a market, so why give away something
you could sell.  ;)

Kelly

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Review of Calculations
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 22:34:24 +0100

To Rex,

>I have studied your document that describes some calculations
>for relativistic self-fueled rockets.

I think that you are the first, thanks.

>I believe I have verified your physics and mathematics using
>two other independent approaches, but I'm not completely sure;
>I get slightly different numerical results from yours.  We need
>to resolve the difference in numbers.

Yes.

>In my opinion, the last four sentences in the first paragraph
>are unnecessary; the integration is straightforward.

I added those lines to make people with less mathematical background a bit
more confident, but then again the math is so ugly (compared to F=m*a) that
they are scared away even before reading those lines.

>Also,
>I didn't find the expression for power in your write-up, so
>the involvement of acceleration is not made clear.

The power used is shown implicitly in the formula of k[t]

(3) k[t] = j[t] (g - 1)   Energy mass needed

from there substitute j[t] and then on of the two M[t].
Once you have done that multiply by c squared (E=mc^2)

I will add this in the new release (formula 12.1, 13.1 and 12.2, 13.2).

>Your
>other results don't depend on time (time cancels out in the
>derivation of the rocket equation), so absent the expression
>for power your specification of acceleration is distracting.

Indeed after the integration all time dependence vanishes (I even stated
somewhere that the apparent dependence on "a" was because of formula
substitution)
I must say that before I started the calculation I hadn't really thought
about the influence of "a", so your comment is partly justified.
I hope that you now see why I used the acceleration in my formulas. Mainly
to calculate the power (in my little Pascal program) using formulas defined
in the document.
(If you feel my comment isn't justified, then please correct me)

>I had trouble with the "Energy/Mo" heading in your table of
>results.  I finally figured that it must be "total exhaust
>energy (in joules) per kg of empty mass of the ship."

Yes, Kelly also mentioned this when I sent those tables to our group a week ago.
This ratio is the same as that what I defined by f. I thought people would
understand that, I will try to make this clearer in the new release, thanks.

>(Your
>assumption of 100% conversion of nuclear energy to exhaust
>energy needs to be acknowledged and justified.)

Indeed, in my whole calculation I assumed that there where no energy losses.
With losses I mean that energy which cannot be controlled. (eg. heat)
So I'm not talking about fuel efficiency, since that can be incorporate in
that f-ratio.

>Your observation of a minimum in the ratio of total exhaust
>energy to final vehicle energy is astute, but I don't follow
>your explanation.  I haven't tried to explain the minimum
>myself (even though I had calculated its existence non-relat-
>ivistically in the past),

In the next few lines I try to restate a bit what I wrote in my "calc.txt",
I hope it's clearer. Could you write me what part you can't follow?

I found out that for high exhaust speed the total mass of the fuel goes up
because of the extra kinetic energy (Energy is squared dependent on Vexh)
and for lower speeds the mass goes up too, because of the waste of energy
(ie. using unused fusion fuel as reaction mass).

>but I can't believe that the rela-
>tions ever call for using anti-matter for exhaust mass.  This
>may not be a point of interest to anyone other than a systems
>analyst, however.

Yes, this seems a bit strange. But when f=1 the optimum exhaust velocity is
infinite, so you don't need to use anti-matter as exhaust mass then (because
you will need all the energy you can get).

I should not that this optimum exhaust velocity does decreases fast when f
increases (for f=2 -> Vexh=0.866c)
, and in practice might even be impossible. But the whole idea is that if
you don't do that, you will accelerate slower. The explanation is simple,
the extra energy you would need when increasing the exhaust velocity would
be more than 

>Following is a comparison of your and my results:
>
>                          M[0]/Mo       "Energy/Mo"(xE-16)
>    Vexh/c   Vend/c    Yours    Mine      Yours    Mine
>f=1
>     0.4      0.76     12.18   12.068      8.40     9.06
>     0.54     0.76      6.37    6.327      7.65     9.01
>     0.9      0.76      3.75    3.025     10.3     23.6
>     0.99     0.76      2.75    2.735     13.5     94.9
>     0.99     0.99     14.49   14.489    104.     738.
>f=257
>     0.4      0.76     1.9E23  1.61E23         (didn't try)

About the M[0]/Mo numbers, I don't know why, but indeed mine were wrong.
About the Energy/Mo numbers, mine are wrong but the new numbers are all
close to the old one, but the differ much from yours.

>If you check your arithmetic and still disagree, let me know.
>I'll send you a description of my analysis.

For the Energy/Mo we do not agree so for this I need a futher description.
(Energy/Mo is the same as Mk/Mo (formula 11))

I have figured out something new about the minima. The formula to calculate
the minimum for low f has a completely different origin than for high f.
Unfortunately this new minimum cannot be calculated algebraically, I'm
trying to work out a computer program to do some calculations.
(I'm not sure this latter makes some sense, it's hard to visualize this from
words, I my HTML-release that I'm working on, I will add some graphs that
would clarify some things)

I will sent you my newer release of the "calc.txt" document. For the others,
I will put it on my web-site in a while.


Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Correction
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 01:56:03 +0100

Hello Rex,

I wrote your letter during, recalculating my formulas, when I though to have
finished the calculations, I forgot to remove some drag from the letter.

Everything between the --- and === is still the same, the rest after the ===
is different at several points.

Sorry, for the inconvenience, here the right text:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

To Rex,

>I have studied your document that describes some calculations
>for relativistic self-fueled rockets.

I think that you are the first, thanks.

>I believe I have verified your physics and mathematics using
>two other independent approaches, but I'm not completely sure;
>I get slightly different numerical results from yours.  We need
>to resolve the difference in numbers.

Yes.

>In my opinion, the last four sentences in the first paragraph
>are unnecessary; the integration is straightforward.

I added those lines to make people with less mathematical background a bit
more confident, but then again the math is so ugly (compared to F=m*a) that
they are scared away even before reading those lines.

>Also,
>I didn't find the expression for power in your write-up, so
>the involvement of acceleration is not made clear.

The power used is shown implicitly in the formula of k[t]

(3) k[t] = j[t] (g - 1)   Energy mass needed

from there substitute j[t] and then on of the two M[t].
Once you have done that multiply by c squared (E=mc^2)

I will add this in the new release (formula 12.1, 13.1 and 12.2, 13.2).

>Your
>other results don't depend on time (time cancels out in the
>derivation of the rocket equation), so absent the expression
>for power your specification of acceleration is distracting.

Indeed after the integration all time dependence vanishes (I even stated
somewhere that the apparent dependence on "a" was because of formula
substitution)
I must say that before I started the calculation I hadn't really thought
about the influence of "a", so your comment is partly justified.
I hope that you now see why I used the acceleration in my formulas. Mainly
to calculate the power (in my little Pascal program) using formulas defined
in the document.
(If you feel my comment isn't justified, then please correct me)

>I had trouble with the "Energy/Mo" heading in your table of
>results.  I finally figured that it must be "total exhaust
>energy (in joules) per kg of empty mass of the ship."

Yes, Kelly also mentioned this when I sent those tables to our group a week ago.
This ratio is the same as that what I defined by f. I thought people would
understand that, I will try to make this clearer in the new release, thanks.

>(Your
>assumption of 100% conversion of nuclear energy to exhaust
>energy needs to be acknowledged and justified.)

Indeed, in my whole calculation I assumed that there where no energy losses.
With losses I mean that energy which cannot be controlled. (eg. heat)
So I'm not talking about fuel efficiency, since that can be incorporate in
that f-ratio.

===============================================================================

>Your observation of a minimum in the ratio of total exhaust
>energy to final vehicle energy is astute, but I don't follow
>your explanation.  I haven't tried to explain the minimum
>myself (even though I had calculated its existence non-relat-
>ivistically in the past),

In the next few lines I try to restate and CORRECT what I wrote in my
"calc.txt", I hope it's clearer. Could you write me what part you can't follow?

I found out that for high exhaust speed the total mass of the fuel goes up
because of the extra kinetic energy (Energy is squared dependent on Vexh)
and for lower speeds the mass goes up too, because of the waste of energy
(ie. dumping unused fuel L[t]).

However, this is only valid for bigger fuel-factors f>6.295 where the point
of intersection between 11.1 and 11.2 is the minimum. But for smaller
fuel-factors f<6.295 (when 11.2 starts much later than 11.1) this minimum
doesn't exist anymore and is replaced by one with a different origin. This
minimum originates from 11.1 only. (11.1 has a minimum from itself, 11.2
doesn't)

The reason for this minimum I cannot explain yet (but hope to do tomorrow)

>but I can't believe that the rela-
>tions ever call for using anti-matter for exhaust mass.  This
>may not be a point of interest to anyone other than a systems
>analyst, however.

Yes, this seems a bit strange. I can't comment right now but will do
tomorrow (I hope)

>Following is a comparison of your and my results:
>
>                          M[0]/Mo       "Energy/Mo"(xE-16)
>    Vexh/c   Vend/c    Yours    Mine      Yours    Mine
>f=1
>     0.4      0.76     12.18   12.068      8.40     9.06
>     0.54     0.76      6.37    6.327      7.65     9.01
>     0.9      0.76      3.75    3.025     10.3     23.6
>     0.99     0.76      2.75    2.735     13.5     94.9
>     0.99     0.99     14.49   14.489    104.     738.
>f=257
>     0.4      0.76     1.9E23  1.61E23         (didn't try)

About the M[0]/Mo numbers, I don't know why, but indeed mine were wrong.
About the Energy/Mo numbers, mine are wrong but the new numbers are all
close to the old one, but the differ much from yours.

>If you check your arithmetic and still disagree, let me know.
>I'll send you a description of my analysis.

For the Energy/Mo we do not agree so for this I need a futher description.
(Energy/Mo is the same as Mk/Mo (formula 11))

I will sent you my newer release of the "calc.txt" document. For the others,
I will put it on my web-site in a while.


Timothy

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From: "L. Parker" 
To: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: SSRT: Help needed on X-33
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 21:17:38 -0600

>Return-Path: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu
>From: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu (Chris W. Johnson)
>To: "Single Stage Rocket Technology News" 
>Subject: SSRT: Help needed on X-33
>Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:09:49 -0600
>Sender: listserv@zimbazi.cc.utexas.edu
>X-listname: 
>
>Newsgroups: sci.space.policy
>From: sherzer@netcom.com (Allen Sherzer)
>Subject: Help needed on X-33
>Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:31:41 GMT
>Lines: 41
>
>Next week activists from all over the nation will be in Washington DC to
>brief Senators on the X-33.  This effort last year played an important
>role in securing millions of additional funds for the X-33 effort.  With
>luck we will be just as successful this year.
>
>Even if you won't be there, you can still help.  We will be meeting with
>Senators and staff people who know very little about this and we need to
>show there in interest in their state for this project.  You can help by
>writing a brief letter to your senator asking his or her support for X-33.
>These letters should be written today so they arrive at the end of this
>week and early next week.
>
>This way when we go to the Senators office their staff will have received
>some contact so they will be more receptive.  Below is a sample letter
>with some points to hit.  Make your letter different so all the letters
>don't look the same.  Your letter need not be long, we just want to make
>sure X-33 is something they have in their minds when we meet with them.
>   Allen
>
>Dear Senator:
>
>I am writing to ask for your support for the NASA X-33 effort.  This
>innovative project has the potential to make significant cuts to the cost
>of space access and would save billions of our tax dollars.  I hope you
>will support full funding for the X-33 including enough money to build the
>two vehicles NASA wants.
>  Sincerely
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>*******************************************************************************
>*  Allen W. Sherzer        | "Nothing of importance happened today"           *
>*  sherzer@netcom.com      |   --Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776       *
>*******************************************************************************
>
>
>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: bmansur , David ,
        DotarSojat , hous0042 ,
        jim , KellySt ,
         kgstar , lparker ,
        rddesign , stevev 
To: "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Re: Explorer Power Gain Problem
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 09:42:00 PST


>From Brian,

>>Kelly
>> The formula is right, but the number is only valid when the velocity of 
the
>> starship is 5 m/s. The problem with the document is that the meaning of 
the
>> number is not told.
>
>Now I remember.  I calculated the power the drive system would need for a 
one
>second boost, and assumed it would be constant for the flight.  I.E. if
>it takes X watts to push the ship at a ship G for a secound.  Multiply that
>by the number of seconds of boost to get to desired speed, and ....
>
>Given that the engine should need to output the same power, to accelerate 
the
>same mass, at the same rate, at diferent speeds.  It seems like it should
>work.

>Tim
>Ah that makes some sence, you indeed can use this trick to calculate the
>power needed for a self-fueled ship. But keep in mind that the mass of the
>ship may decrease significantly due to the "burning" of the fuel.

Brian.
Don't bother sending me a reply to this e-mail (not because I don't like 
you, but because I have to be going off-line for the rest of the school 
year).

Over break I looked very closely at Kelly's Explorer paper power 
requirements.  I noted one very confusing thing that he did when he 
calculated his power requirements.  He said that Watts could be divided by 
time (example: W/s).

After studying my physics textbook for a few nights, I now believe that 
there is no such thing as a W/s because a Watt is already a Joule per 
second.  How can you have Joules per second per second?  I don't believe you 
can and I couldn't find anything in two different physics textbooks to 
suggest otherwise.

I thought that I was missing something because I seemed to have remembered 
hearing that the Earth received 1400 W/m^2 per second.  That is wrong.  The 
texts available to me say that we get 1400 W/m^2 period.

Anyway, if you follow my reasoning, you can see why this error explains the 
low numbers on the Explorer paper.  Otherwise the math seemed good to me (I 
think).  

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From: Brian Mansur 
To: DotarSojat , rddesign 
Cc: bmansur , David ,
         hous0042 , jim ,
        KellySt , lparker ,
         stevev ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         zkulpa 
Subject: Brian Going Off-line
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 09:51:00 PST


I've got some bad, bad news.  Well, it is probably good news for my GPA but 
not for the LIT discussion group.

First off, I wasn't able to finish the Argosy paper.  I did get a start on 
it, but I quickly realized that I had far more homework to do over break 
that I had first estimated.  So I decided that I needed to turn my attention 
to that.

Since I only have 4 weeks of school left this semester and a lot of work 
ahead of me (and I do mean a mother load), I'm going off-line here.  Even if 
your e-mails get through, I won't be reading them.  Don't worry, I'll do 
what I can to get an e-mail address this summer and I'll see about finishing 
that Argosy paper.   Anyway, its calculus time for now and I just can't 
divide my brain power between that and the Asimov.  When I try, invariably 
the Asimov wins out and that leaves my test grades in the D or F range. 
 Sorry for the temporary dropout guys but  I'll tell you what.  This design 
project has been a lot of fun and I'm not through with it yet.

Live long through relativistic travel.  

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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Brian Mansur 
cc: DotarSojat , rddesign ,
        bmansur , David ,
         jim , KellySt ,
         lparker , stevev ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
        zkulpa 
Subject: Good-bye Brian  ;(
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 15:42:47 -0600 (CST)

I will be removing your name from my list.  If you want to get back, send 
e-mail to hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu  

Print this out and save it, or otherwise write down our e-mail addresses.

Thanks for your input.

Kevin

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From: "L. Parker" 
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Comparison of Sail vs. RAM (Was Laser Aperture Size)
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 21:05:07 -0600

At 08:40 AM 3/22/96 -0500, you wrote:

>The sail system could get you up to higher speeds if you assume rediculas
>amount of power being supplied by the maser arrays.  Then again I don't
>know how rediculas you'ld need to get to .3c eiather.  ;)

I had already pretty much discounted the maser idea...


>My Explorer class with its externalkly feed fussion rockets could certainly
>get itself up to .3 c and probably back down again, assuming less rediculas
>amounts of power, but a hell of a lot of fusion isotopes.

Most of the research I've seen support .3c from a ramship type of vehicle.
If you can make the extra fuel idea work, then you could probably get even
higher.

>Well It doesn't have to be that complicated!  Gravity assist is obviously
>of no use unless you find a black hole near by (To little power for our
>needs.) but you could say use a sail to boost the ship up to speed (.3c)
>here.  Pull in the sail and store it for the cruse, then use fusion rockets
>to decel into the target system.  To get back, refuel and boost out of the
>system using the rockets, and deploy the sail for deceleration into Sol.

Actually the gravity assist manuever combined with sails works BETTER in
deep gravity wells of large STARS. Sails don't help much around black holes!

>I do know what you mean about discouraging thou.  It seems like were not
>going to be able to realisticly build a usable starship without some new
>tricks from physisits.  The only adaquate power source now is anti-mater,
>but thats not really usable or practical.  Perhaps a mater conversion
>system?  So physisits are talking about possibility of rotating the quantum
>particals to convert a partical of mattar to anti-mater.  If this could be
>done on demand the ships could have the power to weight ratio's of
>anti-matter without the danger of bulk anti-matter storage, or the current
>cost of antimatter production.

Assuming it doesn't require more power to rotate the particle than the
energy it produces...

Funny you should new tricks and quantums in the same breath though. Did you
know that quantum energy appears spontaneously in space? Hmmmm....

>Oh, note for sail people.  Those e7 to e15 kg sails.  Given that steel is
>only about 7800 kg per cubic meter, steel sails would fold up into cubes of
>steel from 11 meters to 5 kilometer on a side.

I checked the specs on several different METALS. Steel won't work. Titanium
will. Tungsten is even better though. There was one particular compound of
tungsten and another element that would work very well. Tungsten also has
potential superconduction properties that could be useful if you wanted to
use the sail for deceleration, you could charge it also and it would become
an electromagnetic drag screen as well, thereby increasing it potential
usefulness.

Lee Parker
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: "L. Parker" 
Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39),
        David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Comparison of Sail vs. RAM (Was Laser Aperture Size)
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 08:03:08 -0500

At 9:05 PM 3/27/96, L. Parker wrote:
>At 08:40 AM 3/22/96 -0500, you wrote:
>


>>My Explorer class with its externalkly feed fussion rockets could certainly
>>get itself up to .3 c and probably back down again, assuming less rediculas
>>amounts of power, but a hell of a lot of fusion isotopes.
>
>Most of the research I've seen support .3c from a ramship type of vehicle.
>If you can make the extra fuel idea work, then you could probably get even
>higher.

Most of the stuff we found suggests ram ships are impractical to impossible
to make work.  (Bummed us out too.)

>>Well It doesn't have to be that complicated!  Gravity assist is obviously
>>of no use unless you find a black hole near by (To little power for our
>>needs.) but you could say use a sail to boost the ship up to speed (.3c)
>>here.  Pull in the sail and store it for the cruse, then use fusion rockets
>>to decel into the target system.  To get back, refuel and boost out of the
>>system using the rockets, and deploy the sail for deceleration into Sol.
>
>Actually the gravity assist manuever combined with sails works BETTER in
>deep gravity wells of large STARS. Sails don't help much around black holes!

Yeah, but the gravity assist and solar sail delta-V potential is too
trivial to worry about.

>>I do know what you mean about discouraging thou.  It seems like were not
>>going to be able to realisticly build a usable starship without some new
>>tricks from physisits.  The only adaquate power source now is anti-mater,
>>but thats not really usable or practical.  Perhaps a mater conversion
>>system?  So physisits are talking about possibility of rotating the quantum
>>particals to convert a partical of mattar to anti-mater.  If this could be
>>done on demand the ships could have the power to weight ratio's of
>>anti-matter without the danger of bulk anti-matter storage, or the current
>>cost of antimatter production.
>
>Assuming it doesn't require more power to rotate the particle than the
>energy it produces...

More power than a mater anti mat reaction?  Humm.

>Funny you should new tricks and quantums in the same breath though. Did you
>know that quantum energy appears spontaneously in space? Hmmmm....

Zero point energy?  Yeah, interesting and potentially huge.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Kevin C Houston 
Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        "L. Parker" , David ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
        bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Comparison of Sail vs. RAM (Was Laser Aperture Size)
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 10:08:20 -0500

At 8:45 AM 3/28/96, Kevin C Houston wrote:
>Kelly
>> Lee:
>> >Assuming it doesn't require more power to rotate the particle than the
>> >energy it produces...
>>
>> More power than a mater anti mat reaction?  Humm.
>>
>> >Funny you should new tricks and quantums in the same breath though. Did you
>> >know that quantum energy appears spontaneously in space? Hmmmm....
>>
>> Zero point energy?  Yeah, interesting and potentially huge.
>
>You guys never cease to amaze me.  My maser Idea, which although requires
>some large RM loads, _might_ work -- this you dismiss as "unworkable".
>Then you go on to talk about changing matter into anti-matter, and
>quantum zero-point energy (the ultimate free lunch)  hmmm...

Oh the RM doesn't bother me.  I'm just not as confident as you that you can
find a point where you can get decel thrust greater than the 'sail' thrust.
Also the micro wave array requiered seems over the top.

The two of us were just talking about speculated future physics tricks that
might solve our delemas.

>Not to critize, just thought it was interesting.  I got my system back
>up, I will try to re-work the original MARS idea, to see just how much
>extra RM is needed.

Ok.  I hope to finish the rough of my Explorer class and status report
pages.  (The Explorer will be a very chunky bugger!)  Hopefully we can
wrough in a Mars draft soon too.  (What did MARS stand for anyway?)


Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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Subject: Re: Comparison of Sail vs. RAM (Was Laser Aperture Size)
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 01:04:02 +0100

>To recap the problem:
>
>if a chemical or fusion rocket is used, (with extremely low Ve) then the 
>ship needs planatary sized fuel tanks
>
>if the Ve (exhaust Velocity) is increased to .9996 (or higher) of C, then 
>mere Kilograms/Sec of RM is needed.  However, in order to do that, one 
>needs lot's of energy, and the momentum of the maser overcomes the 
>momentum of the engine.
>
>Somewhere in between is a solution.  that is to say, that at some Ve (I'd 
>guess in the .6 to .8 of C range)  The Energy requirements are low enough 
>to reduce the Maser thrust to a value far enough below the engine thrust 
>to allow a not-too-big RM tank to handle it.  Here is a conceptual graph 
>to illustrate what I mean.
>
>Note:  This Graph is totally arbitrary and qualitative.  I'm fairly 
>confident that the oo point (where the lines intersect) exists, I just 
>have no clue as to how to find it (aside from trial and error which is 
>what I intend to do this weekend)

Since you probably don't have the right formulas trial and error will not
work either, finding these may indeed by a bit nasty. Since I've done such
calculations before, it will be a bit easier for me.

>Any help will be greatly appreciated..

Well, I suppose you want to find the solution that consumes the least energy
(not necessary the least reaction mass).

So we need to optimize the energy.

Energy needed to decelerate a ship depends on it's empty mass, its start
velocity, the exhaust velocity.

E(Mo,Vstart,Vexh)

                  1
         ------------------
                        2
(1)  g =            Vexh
          Sqrt[1 - ------]
                     2
                    c

             M[t] a
(2)  j[t] = --------
             g Vexh

          c           Vstart 
(4)  T = --- ArcTanh[--------]
          a             c

                 T
                 /
(5)  M[t] = Mo + | j[t] dt
                 /
                 t

                          T
                    a     /
(6)  M[t] = Mo + -------- | M[t] dt
                  g Vexh  /
                          t

Solving this differential equation gives:

                    a (T - t)
(7)  M[t] = Mo Exp[-----------]
                     g Vexh

                  T
           2      /
(9)  Ek = c (g-1) | j[t] dt
                  /
                  0

           2                a T
(10) Ek = c (g-1) Mo Exp [--------]
                           g Vexh

           2                 c              Vstart
(11) Ek = c (g-1) Mo Exp [-------- ArcTanh[--------]]
                           g Vexh              c

Finally... E(Mo,Vstart,Vexh)


Now we only need to find its minimum, that's easy: solve dE/dVexh=0

Well, that's not easy but the minima are:

Vstart  Vexh optimal  Fuel:ship-ratio  Energy per kg of ship (in Joules)
 0.1        0.05           7.4            8E14
 0.2        0.10           7.4            3E15
 0.3        0.15           7.3            8E15
 0.4        0.21           7.2            1E16
 0.5        0.27           7.1            2E16
 0.6        0.34           6.9            4E16
 0.7        0.41           6.8            6E16
 0.8        0.51           6.4            9E16
 0.9        0.64           5.9            2E17
 0.99       0.87           4.5            4E17 
 0.9996     0.957          3.6            8E17

Timothy

P.S. Rex, I suppose some of these formulas will look familiar

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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Subject: Wait a moment
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 13:31:01 +0100

To Kevin,

The calculations, I sent to you last night, are not complete yet. They do
not take into account the pressure of the maser. I first assumed that that
would not influence the minimum, but after I lied down in bed, I figured out
that that wasn't true.
So my calculations are not completed yet, but they give a insight in the
math that need to be used.

So, look at the letter, but do not yet make detailed assumptions.

Timothy

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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Timothy van der Linden 
cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Comparison of Sail vs. RAM (Was Laser Aperture Size)
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 16:59:12 -0600 (CST)



Tim:
> Kevin:
> >have no clue as to how to find it (aside from trial and error which is 
> >what I intend to do this weekend)
> 
> Since you probably don't have the right formulas trial and error will not
> work either, finding these may indeed by a bit nasty. Since I've done such
> calculations before, it will be a bit easier for me.
> 
> >Any help will be greatly appreciated..
> 
> Well, I suppose you want to find the solution that consumes the least energy
> (not necessary the least reaction mass).
> 
> So we need to optimize the energy.
> 
> Energy needed to decelerate a ship depends on it's empty mass, its start
> velocity, the exhaust velocity.
> 
> E(Mo,Vstart,Vexh)
> 
>                   1
>          ------------------
>                         2
> (1)  g =            Vexh
>           Sqrt[1 - ------]
>                      2
>                     c
> 
>              M[t] a
> (2)  j[t] = --------
>              g Vexh
> 
>           c           Vstart 
> (4)  T = --- ArcTanh[--------]
>           a             c
> 
>                  T
>                  /
> (5)  M[t] = Mo + | j[t] dt
>                  /
>                  t
> 
>                           T
>                     a     /
> (6)  M[t] = Mo + -------- | M[t] dt
>                   g Vexh  /
>                           t
> 
> Solving this differential equation gives:
> 
>                     a (T - t)
> (7)  M[t] = Mo Exp[-----------]
>                      g Vexh
> 
>                   T
>            2      /
> (9)  Ek = c (g-1) | j[t] dt
>                   /
>                   0
> 
>            2                a T
> (10) Ek = c (g-1) Mo Exp [--------]
>                            g Vexh
> 
>            2                 c              Vstart
> (11) Ek = c (g-1) Mo Exp [-------- ArcTanh[--------]]
>                            g Vexh              c
> 
> Finally... E(Mo,Vstart,Vexh)
> 
> 
> Now we only need to find its minimum, that's easy: solve dE/dVexh=0
> 
> Well, that's not easy but the minima are:
> 
> Vstart  Vexh optimal  Fuel:ship-ratio  Energy per kg of ship (in Joules)
>  0.1        0.05           7.4            8E14
>  0.2        0.10           7.4            3E15
>  0.3        0.15           7.3            8E15
>  0.4        0.21           7.2            1E16
>  0.5        0.27           7.1            2E16
>  0.6        0.34           6.9            4E16
>  0.7        0.41           6.8            6E16
>  0.8        0.51           6.4            9E16
>  0.9        0.64           5.9            2E17
>  0.99       0.87           4.5            4E17 
>  0.9996     0.957          3.6            8E17
> 
But does this take into account the push from the maser?

I think I understand what you did, but I am not at all sure that I 
comprehend the details.

assuming that we went on a continuous 1 G thrust profile, we should be 
near .9905 at turn around (your Vstart?) then optimal Vexh is .87 and 
RM to ship ratio is 4.5 to 1,  and the masers have to provide 
4E17 Joules /sec/Kg = Watts/Kg ????!

I really really want to thank you for taking the time to do the 
calculation.  but could you please explain the result?

Kevin

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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Timothy van der Linden 
cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Wait a moment
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 17:02:54 -0600 (CST)



On Fri, 29 Mar 1996, Timothy van der Linden wrote:

> To Kevin,
> 
> The calculations, I sent to you last night, are not complete yet. They do
> not take into account the pressure of the maser. I first assumed that that
> would not influence the minimum, but after I lied down in bed, I figured out
> that that wasn't true.
> So my calculations are not completed yet, but they give a insight in the
> math that need to be used.
> 
> So, look at the letter, but do not yet make detailed assumptions.
> 
> Timothy
> 
> 
Too late, I already did.  :)  oh well, just ignore my comments

Kevin

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: OK, here the right calculus (I hope)
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 02:13:54 +0100

Optimal solution for a maser deceleration starship. The starship carries all
the necessary repulsion mass and gets the energy needed to accelerate the
repulsion mass from the maser.

To do this we want to find the solution that consumes the least energy.

Energy needed to decelerate a ship depends on it's empty mass, its start
velocity, the exhaust velocity. So we need the formula E(Mo,Vstart,Vexh)


Definition of g or gamma, also known as the energy factor:

                  1
         ------------------
                        2
(1)  g =            Vexh
          Sqrt[1 - ------]
                     2
                    c

Momentum mass needed at time t to decelerate with a m/s/s

             M[t] (a+b)
(2)  j[t] = ------------
              g Vexh

b is the acceleration caused by the maser beam. The value of b depends on
the power needed, this is yet unknown.

Power needed at time t:

P[t]=j[t] c^2 (g-1)

Momentum caused by the maser beam: p=E/c or F=P/c

Since F = M[t] b and P/c = j[t] c (g-1) we get

M[t] b = j[t] c (g-1)

Solving b gives:

b = j[t] c (g-1)/M[t]

Substituting b into (2) gives:

              M[t] a      j[t] c (g-1)
(3a)  j[t] = --------- + --------------
              g Vexh         g Vexh

Resolving j[t] gives:

                   M[t] a             
(3b)  j[t] = --------------------
              g Vexh - c (g - 1)

Definition of the time T that it takes to decelerate from Vstart to 0:

          c           Vstart 
(4)  T = --- ArcTanh[--------]
          a             c

Mass of the ship(Mo) and the repulsion mass(j[t]) at time t:

                 T
                 /
(5)  M[t] = Mo + | j[t] dt
                 /
                 t

Substitute (3b) in (5):

                                      T
                          a           /
(6)  M[t] = Mo + -------------------- | M[t] dt
                  g Vexh - c (g - 1)  /
                                      t

Solving this differential equation gives:

                         a (T - t)
(7)  M[t] = Mo Exp[---------------------]
                     g Vexh - c (g - 1)


The total amount of energy needed to accelerate the repulsion mass to Vexh
is defined by:

                  T
           2      /
(9)  Ek = c (g-1) | j[t] dt
                  /
                  0

(Oops, forgot the "minus 1" in my previous letter)

           2                       a T
(10) Ek = c (g-1) Mo (Exp [--------------------] - 1)
                            g Vexh + c (1 - g)

           2                         c                   Vstart
(11) Ek = c (g-1) Mo (Exp [-------------------- ArcTanh[--------]] - 1)
                            g Vexh + c (1 - g)             c

Finally... E(Mo,Vstart,Vexh)


Now we only need to find its minimum, that could be done by solving dE/dVexh=0

The minima are:

Vstart  Vexh optimal  Fuel:ship-ratio  Energy per kg of ship (in Joules)
 0.1        0.062          5.36            7.45E14
 0.2        0.121          5.84            3.25E15
 0.3        0.180          6.40            8.11E15
 0.4        0.240          7.06	           1.64E16
 0.5        0.300          7.87            2.97E16
 0.6        0.364          8.91            5.23E16
 0.7        0.433         10.38            9.21E16 
 0.8        0.512         12.72            1.73E17
 0.9        0.615         17.75            4.04E17
 0.99       0.803         52.00            3.12E18
 0.9996     0.906        238.81            2.91E19

Note that the power of the maser-beam is NOT constant, it is supposed that
it decreases while the ship gets lighter (because it repulses mass).

Timothy

P.S. Goodnight to all

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Wait a moment
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 17:51:29 +0100

To Kevin,

>Too late, I already did.  :)  oh well, just ignore my comments

It happened to me several times, but I think some of you comments are still
valid, so I will answer them here.

The minima are:

Vstart  Vexh optimal  Fuel:ship-ratio  Energy per kg of ship (in Joules)
 0.1        0.062          5.36            7.45E14
 0.2        0.121          5.84            3.25E15
 0.3        0.180          6.40            8.11E15
 0.4        0.240          7.06	           1.64E16
 0.5        0.300          7.87            2.97E16
 0.6        0.364          8.91            5.23E16
 0.7        0.433         10.38            9.21E16 
 0.8        0.512         12.72            1.73E17
 0.9        0.615         17.75            4.04E17
 0.99       0.803         52.00            3.12E18
 0.9996     0.906        238.81            2.91E19

Vstart is indeed the velocity that the starship has just before it starts
decelerating.

Energy per kg of ship is the total amount of energy needed, to calculate the
mean power, you could devide the Energy by T, the time it takes to
decelerate the ship.

Here are a few of these power numbers, 

Vstart    P[0]      P[T]
0.1      5.01E08    9.35E07
0.5      4.19E09    5.34E08
0.9      2.73E10    1.54E09
0.99     1.55E11    2.98E09
0.9996   1.23E12    5.14E09

P[0] is the power needed at the beginning of the deceleration, P[T] is the
power needed at the end of the deceleration. The difference between P[0] and
P[T] is  caused only by the decrease of the total mass of the ship.

Oh yes, the power and energy mentioned here are all relative to the
starship, not to Earth. This means that the doppler shift increases all
numbers when one takes Earth as reference point. (which is important because
it has to generate the power)

The influence of the doppler shift is shown here:

Vstart  Energy per kg of ship (in Joules)
 0.1       7.45E14    7.73E14
 0.2       3.25E15    3.50E15
 0.3       8.11E15    9.08E15
 0.4       1.64E16    1.91E16
 0.5       2.99E16    3.64E16
 0.6       5.23E16    6.69E16
 0.7       9.21E16    1.25E17
 0.8       1.73E17    2.53E17
 0.9       4.04E17    6.62E17
 0.99      3.12E18    7.02E17
 0.9996    2.91E19    9.26E19

The first row is the ENERGY relative to the starship, the second row is the
energy relative to Earth. I won't show the power numbers here, but I think
you can make a rough guess.

The influence of the doppler shift is calculated as follows:

                 2
       Sqrt[1 - b ]
f'= f ---------------  where b=v/c
          1 - b 

v[t]=c Tanh[a t/c]

U = h*f  so just linear dependence

    T                 2
    /       Sqrt[1 - b ]
E = | P[t] --------------- dt      where b = v[t]/c
    /          1 - b 
    0


Timothy

P.S. If someone likes a complete document (instead of the fractured ones)
just sent me a mail.

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MIME-Version: 1.0
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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
cc: "L. Parker" ,
         Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        David , KellySt ,
        rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Comparison of Sail vs. RAM (Was Laser Aperture Size)
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 08:45:30 -0600 (CST)



Kelly
> Lee:
> >Assuming it doesn't require more power to rotate the particle than the
> >energy it produces...
> 
> More power than a mater anti mat reaction?  Humm.
> 
> >Funny you should new tricks and quantums in the same breath though. Did you
> >know that quantum energy appears spontaneously in space? Hmmmm....
> 
> Zero point energy?  Yeah, interesting and potentially huge.

You guys never cease to amaze me.  My maser Idea, which although requires 
some large RM loads, _might_ work -- this you dismiss as "unworkable".  
Then you go on to talk about changing matter into anti-matter, and 
quantum zero-point energy (the ultimate free lunch)  hmmm...

Not to critize, just thought it was interesting.  I got my system back 
up, I will try to re-work the original MARS idea, to see just how much 
extra RM is needed.  

To recap the problem:

if a chemical or fusion rocket is used, (with extremely low Ve) then the 
ship needs planatary sized fuel tanks

if the Ve (exhaust Velocity) is increased to .9996 (or higher) of C, then 
mere Kilograms/Sec of RM is needed.  However, in order to do that, one 
needs lot's of energy, and the momentum of the maser overcomes the 
momentum of the engine.

Somewhere in between is a solution.  that is to say, that at some Ve (I'd 
guess in the .6 to .8 of C range)  The Energy requirements are low enough 
to reduce the Maser thrust to a value far enough below the engine thrust 
to allow a not-too-big RM tank to handle it.  Here is a conceptual graph 
to illustrate what I mean.

+  - amount of Reaction Mass (RM) in Kg/sec needed to decell at 1 G
     taking in to account the size of the RM tanks, and the maser
     "push"

*  - amount of Maser-induced thrust at that energy

   | ++++                           *   
   |     ++++                      *    
T  |         ++++                 *     
H  |             ++++            *      
R  |                 +++       **        
U  |                    +++  **          
S  |                       oo          
T  |                    ***  ++        
   |                 ***       ++      
   |             ****            +     
   |         ****                 +    
   |     ****                      +   
   | ****                           +  
   ------------------------------------
    6              Ve (as % of C)   99.96

Note:  This Graph is totally arbitrary and qualitative.  I'm fairly 
confident that the oo point (where the lines intersect) exists, I just 
have no clue as to how to find it (aside from trial and error which is 
what I intend to do this weekend)

Any help will be greatly appreciated..

Kevin Houston

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Black horse
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 09:01:42 -0500

FYI.
I presume you all know what Black Horse is?  I'm not a big fan, but the
equations should be usefull.

Kelly

>Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 19:07:05 -0500
>From: KellySt@aol.com
>To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
>Subject: Black horse
>
>Subject: assessing Black Horse style vehicles
>From: magnus@im.lcs.mit.edu (Daniel Risacher)
>Date: 17 Mar 1996 19:37:30 -0500
>Message-ID: 
>
>
>Mitchell Burnside Clapp has written a piece entitled "An approximate
>method of assessing the performance of propellant transfer
>spaceplanes"
>
>I've formatted this into HTML and added it to the Black Horse page as:
>
> http://www.im.lcs.mit.edu/bh/dfh.html
>
>The good bits are the equations, which are included as inline gif's,
>so use a graphical browser.
>
>In the paper, Mitch works through some of the math to determine the
>performance of a Black Horse type vehicle, and extends it to look at
>APT spaceplaces with turbofans or fan-ramjets such as those proposed
>by Kaiser-Marquardt.
>
>The gist is that adding turbofans to a Black Horse vehicle would not
>work very well, but adding fan-ramjets could be of considerable
>advantage.
>
>
>The Black Horse W3 Page, is, as always:
>
> http://www.im.lcs.mit.edu/bh/
>
>--
>Daniel R Risacher - magnus@mit.edu - http://www.im.lcs.mit.edu/~magnus/
>             Engineers make life better through cleverness.
>             Politicians make life worse through stupidity.
>


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: David@interworld.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Broken Draft on New Lit Server
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 16:08:28 -0500

HELP DAVE!
I loaded my current draft of the Explorer Class, Starship Design status
report, and Support craft web documents, to your workstations prototype LIT
site.  But the links don't work right.  Most of the images don't come up, and
some of the interdocument links arn't working.

So Dave, oh professional web maker, what did I do wrong?  If you give me a
hint I might not screw up next time!

As to the documents.  I have to add more illistrations.  Especially more 3d
imagines (thou the first two don't look bad!), and the text is a bit awkward.
 (Typing it in bits and peices during breaks isn't the best way.)  But, I
loaded a ton of info!  Mass numbers for supplies, habitats, support craft,
total fuel amounts, etc..  I didn't know how much to make general info, and
how much to just put under my assumptions.  So a lot of it is in the
Explorer_Class folder (if you can link to it).  If everyone would read and
comment I'ld appreceate it!

Oh Dave, mind if I up load a few meg of packground documents?  I figured it
might make a good reference archive.  Also, my hard drive at work has a lot
more space then the ones on my home computers, and some of the image files
are bulky!.  If nothing else, if i could park some of the big files there for
ftping to home later I would appreciate it.  (One of the 3d graphics data
bases is 13 meg!)

Kelly


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From: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
To: KellySt@aol.com
CC: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Broken Draft on New Lit Server
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 16:49:50 -0500

KellySt@aol.com wrote:
> 
> HELP DAVE!
> I loaded my current draft of the Explorer Class, Starship Design status
> report, and Support craft web documents, to your workstations prototype LIT
> site.  But the links don't work right.  Most of the images don't come up, and
> some of the interdocument links arn't working.

Your links contain escaped characters instead of the
underscores that are actually there.  That's probably
what's wrong. Also, you back up one folder in the
directory structure, and then enter the wrong folder.
For instance,
.../Explorer%20Class%20folder/Explorer-Ovr.JPG
should probably be:
.../Explorer_Class/Explorer-Ovr.JPG
or, better yet, just:
Explorer-Ovr.JPG
since it's in the same directory.

> Oh Dave, mind if I up load a few meg of packground documents?  I figured it
> might make a good reference archive.  Also, my hard drive at work has a lot
> more space then the ones on my home computers, and some of the image files
> are bulky!.  If nothing else, if i could park some of the big files there for
> ftping to home later I would appreciate it.  (One of the 3d graphics data
> bases is 13 meg!)

Well, okay, but within reason.  Right now there's only
70 megs or so on the thing.

--
David Levine
Application Engineer
InterWorld Technology Ventures, Inc.
http://www.interworld.com/staff/david/
david@interworld.com

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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Timothy van der Linden 
cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: OK, here the right calculus (I hope)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 15:53:26 -0600 (CST)



On Sat, 30 Mar 1996, Timothy van der Linden wrote:

> Optimal solution for a maser deceleration starship. The starship carries all
> the necessary repulsion mass and gets the energy needed to accelerate the
> repulsion mass from the maser.
> 
> To do this we want to find the solution that consumes the least energy.



> The minima are:
> 
> Vstart  Vexh optimal  Fuel:ship-ratio  Energy per kg of ship (in Joules)
>  0.1        0.062          5.36            7.45E14
>  0.2        0.121          5.84            3.25E15
>  0.3        0.180          6.40            8.11E15
>  0.4        0.240          7.06	     1.64E16
>  0.5        0.300          7.87            2.97E16
>  0.6        0.364          8.91            5.23E16
>  0.7        0.433         10.38            9.21E16 
>  0.8        0.512         12.72            1.73E17
>  0.9        0.615         17.75            4.04E17
>  0.99       0.803         52.00            3.12E18
>  0.9996     0.906        238.81            2.91E19
> 

So you're saying that a Maser Augmented Rocket System (MARS) _will_ 
work?  do I have that correct.  That we can use maser sail to accelerate 
at 1G constant, then convert the Microwave energy to elec. to accelerate 
Reaction Mass (RM) to about .803 C and we will need 52 times the ships 
dry mass for RM.

Celebratory cheers pending confirmation.

> Note that the power of the maser-beam is NOT constant, it is supposed that
> it decreases while the ship gets lighter (because it repulses mass).

If it's not too much trouble, can you figure this for a constant maser beam
How much extra RM will we need?

A decreasing maser beam is possible, it's only a time delay calculation, 
but a constant beam would solve some engineering problems

and which time frame do I use to figure the energy of the Maser beam?
ship's time or earth's time?

Kevin

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: OK, here the right calculus (I hope)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 15:12:11 -0500

Kevin
> If it's not too much trouble, can you figure this for 
> a constant maser beam How much extra RM will we need?

> A decreasing maser beam is possible, it's only a time 
> delay calculation, but a constant beam would solve 
> some engineering problems

Don't wory.  Most of the beam wount hit the sail/collector anyway.  If you
want less beam, furl in the sail a little.

Kelly

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Broken Draft on New Lit Server
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 1996 23:25:26 +0100

>KellySt@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> HELP DAVE!
>> I loaded my current draft of the Explorer Class, Starship Design status
>> report, and Support craft web documents, to your workstations prototype LIT
>> site.

Did I miss something? Is this the new upcoming LIT site, that you Dave, were
talking about two weeks ago?

If so, what does it have a different URL than the old site?


Anyway, I've been busy updating my old calc.txt and transferring it to HTML:

http://www.cpedu.rug.nl/~N0642983/lit/calc.html

It includes all formulas in transparent images. There is also a link to a
DOS executable program to calculate several values yourself (sorry Kelly, I
don't know how to make a Mac version).

Please tell me if it looks OK, if things don't look like they should, tell
me what browser you use. (I'm using one of the latest Netscape browsers for
Windows).

Any suggestions/comments are welcome.

The formulas may look a bit too large, sorry for that, there are 3 options:
- Upgrade to a monitor & graphics card with higher resulotion ;)
- Increase font size by 3 or 4 points
- Accept the bigger formulas

The whole page is about 25Kb of text and 47Kb of small images.


Greetings Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: OK, here the right calculus (I hope)
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 1996 23:26:05 +0100

To Kevin,

>So you're saying that a Maser Augmented Rocket System (MARS) _will_ 
>work?  do I have that correct.  That we can use maser sail to accelerate 
>at 1G constant, then convert the Microwave energy to elec. to accelerate 
>Reaction Mass (RM) to about .803 C and we will need 52 times the ships 
>dry mass for RM.
>
>Celebratory cheers pending confirmation.

Well, eh, I think so. At least I believe it, although there is something in
the back of my head that says that a long time ago someone (was it me, I
really don't know?) said that it wasn't possible.
So I will check a few things and let you know.

>> Note that the power of the maser-beam is NOT constant, it is supposed that
>> it decreases while the ship gets lighter (because it repulses mass).
>
>If it's not too much trouble, can you figure this for a constant maser beam
>How much extra RM will we need?

Well, that needs a different approach, I'll see what I can do and let you
know. If you haven't heard me about it in a week, give me a yell.

>A decreasing maser beam is possible, it's only a time delay calculation, 
>but a constant beam would solve some engineering problems

Wow did I just find a minimum, now I'm asked to find a worse minimum because
it works too well. Those damn engineers never know what they want... ;)

>and which time frame do I use to figure the energy of the Maser beam?
>ship's time or earth's time?

The formula for the capital T in formula (4) is the time needed to
decelerate in the ship's frame.


Timothy

From popserver Thu Apr  4 05:39:38 GMT 1996
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: stevev@efn.org
Date: Thu, 04 Apr 1996 02:51:11 +0100

Hello Steve,

Some long time ago you wrote a letter to SD showing that one should at best
use a beam by reflecting it straight back.

I tried to find it but did not succeed, are you able to find that letter
easely? If so, could you sent me another copy of it?


Regards Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: Steve VanDevender 
Date: Thu, 04 Apr 1996 13:48:57 +0100

Hello Steve,

> > I tried to find it but did not succeed, are you able to find that letter
> > easely? If so, could you sent me another copy of it?
>
>I can't seem to find a copy of it.  It probably predates the archive I
>have, which started after I started getting mail here when the old LIT
>web site at SunSite went down.

Do you know some specific words that are in it? I've a lot of old letters
but from the outside they all look alike. I also have some older letters
that you don't seem to have, so maybe I have more luck finding it.


Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: OK, here the right calculus (I hope)
Date: Thu, 04 Apr 1996 13:48:54 +0100

To Lee,

>>Well, eh, I think so. At least I believe it, although there is something in
>>the back of my head that says that a long time ago someone (was it me, I
>>really don't know?) said that it wasn't possible.
>>So I will check a few things and let you know.
>
>Have you factored in the decrease in power as a function of distance? Might
>be  good idea....

That should not affect the possibility but only the ability. Do you know a
number (and accompanying formula) for this decrease? I assume it must be
something like  I = Io * Exp(-k x)  so give me a reasonable "k" (and its
cause (interstellar debris?)) and I could make a more realistic formula.

>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>+                                                                             +
>+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
>+                                                                             +
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Is this from Nightmare on Elm-street? What does it mean? I get a bit sick of
it, not knowing for sure.


Timothy

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From: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
To: Timothy van der Linden 
CC: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Broken Draft on New Lit Server
Date: Thu, 04 Apr 1996 09:11:40 -0500

Timothy van der Linden wrote:
> Did I miss something? Is this the new upcoming LIT site, that you Dave, were
> talking about two weeks ago?
> 
> If so, what does it have a different URL than the old site?

Yes, this is a site on my computer on my desktop.  There's
not much to it, yet, but I can give everyone ftp accounts
and directories and this can be a much more collaborative
effort.  My computer can only handle five connections at a
time right now (I'm using a development release of NT Server
3.51 of all things, which limits simultaneous connections)
and it's also used as a print server, so not everyone is
going to be able to get on at once.  Obviously evening
hours (for NYC time) are best.  However, I'll be upgrading
my server shortly to 4.0... and unrestricted version, so
there'll be no problem with a lot of people on at once.
Anyway, if anyone'd like an ftp account, email me separately
and I'll send you a username and password.  Plus, this
site shouldn't be publicized, yet.  We're still in "initial
construction" phase.

--
David Levine
Application Engineer
InterWorld Technology Ventures, Inc.
http://www.interworld.com/staff/david/
david@interworld.com

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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: KellySt@aol.com
cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: OK, here the right calculus (I hope)
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 08:14:54 -0600 (CST)



Kelly:
> Kevin:
> > If it's not too much trouble, can you figure this for 
> > a constant maser beam How much extra RM will we need?
> 
> > A decreasing maser beam is possible, it's only a time 
> > delay calculation, but a constant beam would solve 
> > some engineering problems
> 
> Don't wory.  Most of the beam wount hit the sail/collector anyway.  If you
> want less beam, furl in the sail a little.

Hey Kelly! that's a great idea.  =8-)

Ok Tim, never mind.  Kelly's solution is much more elegant than the one I 
was thinking of using.  This way earth sends a constant maser beam, and 
we decrease our collection of it as the need arises.

hmm...   must do some more thinking.  Main problem now is how to make a 
sail/collector big enough and light enough to catch the energy, while 
having it be strong enough to withstand the forces.   %^|


Kevin

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	nil)
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From: DotarSojat@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, KellySt@aol.com,
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Subject: Optimum Interstellar Rockets
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 13:26:30 -0500

MEMORANDUM
TO:      LIT/SSD Discussion Group
FROM:    Rex Finke
SUBJECT: Optimum Interstellar Rockets (Minimum Antimatter Fuel)


INTRODUCTION

Timothy van der Linden points out in his calc.txt that there is
an optimum ratio of exhaust velocity to final rocket velocity
relativistically (as I had calculated earlier for non-relativistic
velocities --undocumented).  The existence of this optimum indic-
ates that there is a minimum in the amount of antimatter fuel
required to accelerate a starship to any given final mission
velocity.

This memo provides the numbers that show how the ratio of the min-
imum antimatter mass to initial starship mass varies with the de-
sired mission velocity at the end of the first, acceleration burn.


ANALYSIS

We define the following operative quantities:

V = "apparent" velocity = starmap distance/Earth time, in ltyr/yr
U = "proper" velocity = starmap distance/starship time, in ltyr/yr
Vend, Uend are the velocities at the end of the acceleration burn
     (at "burnout")
Vexh, Uexh are the exhaust velocities
g = relativistic energy factor "gamma" = 1/sqrt(1 - V^2)
U = g V
V = U/sqrt(1 + U^2)
gend = gamma for Vend
gexh = gamma for Vexh
M = starship mass (= Mi initially; = Mbo at burnout)
r = starship mass ratio = Mi/Mbo
Ma = annihilation mass used during acceleration burn for rela-
     tivistic rocket = twice the mass of antimatter = 2 Mam
Mp = mass of propellant used during acceleration burn for non-
     relativistic and relativistic rockets
The propulsive energy efficiency (let's call it eff) is the ratio
of the final vehicle kinetic energy to the total exhaust kinetic
energy.

Non-relativistically-

     final vehicle energy = (1/2) Mbo Vend^2
     total exhaust energy = (1/2) Mp Vexh^2
     eff = (Mbo/Mp)(Vend/Vexh)^2

Now from the rocket equation
     Mi/Mbo [= (Mbo + Mp)/Mbo] = exp(Vend/Vexh)
we get
     Mp/Mbo = exp(Vend/Vexh) - 1

If we set x = Vend/Vexh  to simplify, we get for the energy effic-
iency the expression
     eff = x^2/(exp(x) - 1)

This has a maximum value 0.648 for x = 1.59.

So, if the burnout velocity of a non-relativistic rocket is 1.59
times its exhaust velocity, the energy efficiency is a maximum of
64.8 percent.  I.e., the final vehicle energy can be no greater
than 64.8 percent of the exhaust energy.  This limitation is not
an important consideration for a non-relativistic rocket because
energy is subordinate to mass.

Relativistically-

     final vehicle kinetic energy = Mbo (gend - 1) c^2
     total exhaust kinetic energy = Mp (gexh - 1) c^2 = Ma c^2
                                               (no energy losses)
              which gives Mp = Ma/(gexh - 1)
     but relativistically Mp = Mi - Mbo - Ma
               Ma/(gexh - 1) = Mi - Mbo - Ma
                          Ma = (Mi - Mbo)(gexh - 1)/gexh

so the energy efficiency, which is the ratio of the final vehicle
kinetic energy to the total exhaust kinetic energy, is
     eff = Mbo (gend - 1) c^2/(Ma c^2)
         = Mbo (gend - 1) gexh/[(Mi - Mbo)(gexh - 1)]
         = (gend - 1) gexh/[(Mi/Mbo - 1)(gexh - 1)]
         = (gend - 1) gexh/[(r - 1)(gexh - 1)]

The relativistic rocket equation, in its "velocity-parameter"
form, is
     theta = Vexh ln r

and the definition of the velocity parameter is
     tanh(theta) = Vend
or   sinh(theta) = Uend

Note:  asinh(Uend) = ln [Uend + sqrt(Uend^2 + 1)]

so   r = exp[asinh(Uend)/Vexh]

With this relation we have all of the parameters to calculate
     eff = (gend - 1) gexh/[(r - 1)(gexh - 1)]

The expression for eff is evaluated using a Fortran computer pro-
gram, OPTVEXH, a description and a copy of which are given in the
Appendix.


RESULTS

The results of the calculations of the optimum Vexh, the maximum
energy efficiency and the minimum ratios of antimatter mass to
burn-out mass and to initial mass are given in the table below
for ascending values of the mission final proper velocity Uend.
Included in the table are values of Vend, to illustrate the degree
of saturation of apparent velocity, and of the optimum Uexh, to
give a value (not otherwise meaningful) to which to relate the
Uend, in order to examine the behavior of the ratio.

The extreme Uend of 5 ltyr/yr represents the final velocity reach-
ed at a continuous acceleration, a, of one g (1.0324 ltyr/yr^2)
over a distance of 3.97 ltyr.  (The acceleration distance
s = [sqrt(1 + U^2) - 1]/a  .)  Only for destinations beyond about
8 ltyr or accelerations greater than one g need one consider Uends
greater than 5 ltyr/yr.

(Note: these calculations assume no energy losses in converting
annihilation energy to exhaust kinetic energy.  The correction for
energy losses would be to divide the minMam values by the conver-
sion efficiency.)

Uend Vend optVexh optUexh maxeff Uend/optUexh minMam/Mbo minMam/Mi
----non-relativistic----  0.648     1.59         ---        ---
0.2  0.196 0.124   0.125  0.647     1.60        0.0153     0.0029
0.5  0.447 0.291   0.304  0.645     1.64        0.0914     0.0174
1.0  0.707 0.492   0.566  0.640     1.77        0.323      0.0535
1.1690.76* 0.541   0.643  0.639     1.82        0.422      0.0666
2.0  0.894 0.691   0.957  0.630     2.09        0.981      0.1211
3.0  0.949 0.777   1.235  0.622     2.43        1.739      0.1689
4.0  0.970 0.823   1.450  0.616     2.76        2.537      0.1972
5.0  0.981 0.852   1.625  0.611     3.08        3.357      0.2210
--------
*Timothy's selection


OBSERVATIONS

The minimized amount of antimatter is a small fraction of the
starship's initial mass, less than 25 percent for mission proper
velocities as high as 5 light-years/year for 100 percent conver-
sion efficiency.

The maximum energy efficiency decreases slowly as mission proper
velocity is increased, but remains over 60 percent up to a mission
proper velocity of 5 light-years/year.

The ratio of the mission proper velocity to the optimum exhaust
proper velocity increases fairly slowly at first from 1.59 at low
velocities to almost double at a mission proper velocity of 5
light-years/year.

The implications of the values of the optimum exhaust velocity
need to be examined, in terms of their conversion to MeV for
exhaust particles. 

------------------------------------------------------------------
APPENDIX. Program OPTVEXH

For an input value of final proper velocity Uend, the program cal-
culates the Vend, the gend and the theta.  Then for values of Vexh
increasing from 0.01 in increments of 0.01, the program calculates
the eff until a maximum is passed.  The optimum Vexh is calculated
by fitting a second-degree curve to the three points that include
the maximum.  The value of the maximum is simply taken to be the
value preceding the drop.  The ratios of initial antimatter mass
to Mbo and Mi are derived from expressions above-

     Ma/Mbo = (r - 1)(gexh - 1)/gexh
        eff = (gend - 1) gexh/[(r - 1)(gexh - 1)]
            = (gend - 1)/(Ma/Mbo)
     Ma/Mbo = (gend - 1)/eff
        Mam = (1/2) Ma
    Mam/Mbo = (gend - 1)/(2 eff)
     Mam/Mi = (Mam/Mbo)(Mbo/Mi)
            = (Mam/Mbo)/r
            = (gend - 1)/(2 eff r)
 
C     PROGRAM OPTVEXH                                 4/2/96
  101 FORMAT(2X, 21H Final Proper Vel = ?)
  102 FORMAT(2X, 15H Opt Exh Vel = , F6.4, 18H Max Energy Eff = ,
     &  F6.4, 17H Antimatter/Mi = , F6.4)
  103 FORMAT(2X, 8H VEXH = , F4.2, 7H EFF = , F6.4)
    2 CONTINUE
      WRITE(*,101)
      READ(*,*) UEND               !final proper velocity, ltyr/yr
      IF(UEND .EQ. 0.) GO TO 99
      VEND = UEND/SQRT(1. + UEND*UEND)
      GAMEND = 1./SQRT(1. - VEND*VEND)
      THETA = LOG(UEND + SQRT(UEND*UEND + 1.))   !asinh
      VEXH = 0.01
      VEXHN = VEXH
    1 CONTINUE
      VEXHNN = VEXHN
      VEXHN = VEXH
      VEXH = VEXH + 0.01
      RN = R
      R = 1.01
      IF(VEXH .GT. .05) R = EXP(THETA/VEXH)
      GAMEX = 1./SQRT(1. - VEXH*VEXH)
      EFFNN = EFFN
      EFFN = EFF
      EFF = (GAMEND - 1.) * GAMEX/((R - 1.) * (GAMEX - 1.))
C      WRITE(*,103) VEXH, EFF
      IF(EFF .LT. EFFN .AND. VEXH .GT. 0.1) THEN
        Y1 = EFF
        Y2 = EFFN
        Y3 = EFFNN
        X1 = VEXH
        X2 = VEXHN
        X3 = VEXHNN
        A = ((Y1-Y2)*(X2-X3)-(Y2-Y3)*(X1-X2))/
     &      ((X1*X1-X2*X2)*(X2-X3)-(X2*X2-X3*X3)*(X1-X2))
        B = ((Y1-Y2) - A*(X1*X1-X2*X2))/(X1-X2)
        OPTVEXH = -B/(2.*A)
        AMRATIO = (GAMEND - 1.)/(2.*EFFN*RN)   
        WRITE(*,102) OPTVEXH, EFFN, AMRATIO
        GO TO 2
      END IF      
      GO TO 1
   99 STOP
      END


From popserver Thu Apr  4 19:20:52 GMT 1996
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	["9664" "Thu" "4" "April" "1996" "14:03:09" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "255" "Re: Optimum Interstellar Rockets" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil]
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: DotarSojat@aol.com
Cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, KellySt@aol.com,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: Re: Optimum Interstellar Rockets
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 14:03:09 -0500

Other than complexity, would adjusting the exaust vel for optimum at ships
current vel (I.E. as the ships speed increases.  Changing the exaust
velocity for the optimum for that speed) buy us anything?

If you look at the total amount of fuel my Explorer class needs (about
100,000,000 tons of 6Li) I'm starting to think we should at least work up
numbers for a mass conversion / anti-matter ship.  Thou frankly the idea of
making and carrying a few thousand tons of antimatter bothers me a lot.
(NOT IN MY STARSYSTEM!!!!!)  Ah, how far from a planet would we need to
keep the ship for safty?

Kelly


At 1:26 PM 4/4/96, DotarSojat@aol.com wrote:
>MEMORANDUM
>TO:      LIT/SSD Discussion Group
>FROM:    Rex Finke
>SUBJECT: Optimum Interstellar Rockets (Minimum Antimatter Fuel)
>
>
>INTRODUCTION
>
>Timothy van der Linden points out in his calc.txt that there is
>an optimum ratio of exhaust velocity to final rocket velocity
>relativistically (as I had calculated earlier for non-relativistic
>velocities --undocumented).  The existence of this optimum indic-
>ates that there is a minimum in the amount of antimatter fuel
>required to accelerate a starship to any given final mission
>velocity.
>
>This memo provides the numbers that show how the ratio of the min-
>imum antimatter mass to initial starship mass varies with the de-
>sired mission velocity at the end of the first, acceleration burn.
>
>
>ANALYSIS
>
>We define the following operative quantities:
>
>V = "apparent" velocity = starmap distance/Earth time, in ltyr/yr
>U = "proper" velocity = starmap distance/starship time, in ltyr/yr
>Vend, Uend are the velocities at the end of the acceleration burn
>     (at "burnout")
>Vexh, Uexh are the exhaust velocities
>g = relativistic energy factor "gamma" = 1/sqrt(1 - V^2)
>U = g V
>V = U/sqrt(1 + U^2)
>gend = gamma for Vend
>gexh = gamma for Vexh
>M = starship mass (= Mi initially; = Mbo at burnout)
>r = starship mass ratio = Mi/Mbo
>Ma = annihilation mass used during acceleration burn for rela-
>     tivistic rocket = twice the mass of antimatter = 2 Mam
>Mp = mass of propellant used during acceleration burn for non-
>     relativistic and relativistic rockets
>The propulsive energy efficiency (let's call it eff) is the ratio
>of the final vehicle kinetic energy to the total exhaust kinetic
>energy.
>
>Non-relativistically-
>
>     final vehicle energy = (1/2) Mbo Vend^2
>     total exhaust energy = (1/2) Mp Vexh^2
>     eff = (Mbo/Mp)(Vend/Vexh)^2
>
>Now from the rocket equation
>     Mi/Mbo [= (Mbo + Mp)/Mbo] = exp(Vend/Vexh)
>we get
>     Mp/Mbo = exp(Vend/Vexh) - 1
>
>If we set x = Vend/Vexh  to simplify, we get for the energy effic-
>iency the expression
>     eff = x^2/(exp(x) - 1)
>
>This has a maximum value 0.648 for x = 1.59.
>
>So, if the burnout velocity of a non-relativistic rocket is 1.59
>times its exhaust velocity, the energy efficiency is a maximum of
>64.8 percent.  I.e., the final vehicle energy can be no greater
>than 64.8 percent of the exhaust energy.  This limitation is not
>an important consideration for a non-relativistic rocket because
>energy is subordinate to mass.
>
>Relativistically-
>
>     final vehicle kinetic energy = Mbo (gend - 1) c^2
>     total exhaust kinetic energy = Mp (gexh - 1) c^2 = Ma c^2
>                                               (no energy losses)
>              which gives Mp = Ma/(gexh - 1)
>     but relativistically Mp = Mi - Mbo - Ma
>               Ma/(gexh - 1) = Mi - Mbo - Ma
>                          Ma = (Mi - Mbo)(gexh - 1)/gexh
>
>so the energy efficiency, which is the ratio of the final vehicle
>kinetic energy to the total exhaust kinetic energy, is
>     eff = Mbo (gend - 1) c^2/(Ma c^2)
>         = Mbo (gend - 1) gexh/[(Mi - Mbo)(gexh - 1)]
>         = (gend - 1) gexh/[(Mi/Mbo - 1)(gexh - 1)]
>         = (gend - 1) gexh/[(r - 1)(gexh - 1)]
>
>The relativistic rocket equation, in its "velocity-parameter"
>form, is
>     theta = Vexh ln r
>
>and the definition of the velocity parameter is
>     tanh(theta) = Vend
>or   sinh(theta) = Uend
>
>Note:  asinh(Uend) = ln [Uend + sqrt(Uend^2 + 1)]
>
>so   r = exp[asinh(Uend)/Vexh]
>
>With this relation we have all of the parameters to calculate
>     eff = (gend - 1) gexh/[(r - 1)(gexh - 1)]
>
>The expression for eff is evaluated using a Fortran computer pro-
>gram, OPTVEXH, a description and a copy of which are given in the
>Appendix.
>
>
>RESULTS
>
>The results of the calculations of the optimum Vexh, the maximum
>energy efficiency and the minimum ratios of antimatter mass to
>burn-out mass and to initial mass are given in the table below
>for ascending values of the mission final proper velocity Uend.
>Included in the table are values of Vend, to illustrate the degree
>of saturation of apparent velocity, and of the optimum Uexh, to
>give a value (not otherwise meaningful) to which to relate the
>Uend, in order to examine the behavior of the ratio.
>
>The extreme Uend of 5 ltyr/yr represents the final velocity reach-
>ed at a continuous acceleration, a, of one g (1.0324 ltyr/yr^2)
>over a distance of 3.97 ltyr.  (The acceleration distance
>s = [sqrt(1 + U^2) - 1]/a  .)  Only for destinations beyond about
>8 ltyr or accelerations greater than one g need one consider Uends
>greater than 5 ltyr/yr.
>
>(Note: these calculations assume no energy losses in converting
>annihilation energy to exhaust kinetic energy.  The correction for
>energy losses would be to divide the minMam values by the conver-
>sion efficiency.)
>
>Uend Vend optVexh optUexh maxeff Uend/optUexh minMam/Mbo minMam/Mi
>----non-relativistic----  0.648     1.59         ---        ---
>0.2  0.196 0.124   0.125  0.647     1.60        0.0153     0.0029
>0.5  0.447 0.291   0.304  0.645     1.64        0.0914     0.0174
>1.0  0.707 0.492   0.566  0.640     1.77        0.323      0.0535
>1.1690.76* 0.541   0.643  0.639     1.82        0.422      0.0666
>2.0  0.894 0.691   0.957  0.630     2.09        0.981      0.1211
>3.0  0.949 0.777   1.235  0.622     2.43        1.739      0.1689
>4.0  0.970 0.823   1.450  0.616     2.76        2.537      0.1972
>5.0  0.981 0.852   1.625  0.611     3.08        3.357      0.2210
>--------
>*Timothy's selection
>
>
>OBSERVATIONS
>
>The minimized amount of antimatter is a small fraction of the
>starship's initial mass, less than 25 percent for mission proper
>velocities as high as 5 light-years/year for 100 percent conver-
>sion efficiency.
>
>The maximum energy efficiency decreases slowly as mission proper
>velocity is increased, but remains over 60 percent up to a mission
>proper velocity of 5 light-years/year.
>
>The ratio of the mission proper velocity to the optimum exhaust
>proper velocity increases fairly slowly at first from 1.59 at low
>velocities to almost double at a mission proper velocity of 5
>light-years/year.
>
>The implications of the values of the optimum exhaust velocity
>need to be examined, in terms of their conversion to MeV for
>exhaust particles.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>APPENDIX. Program OPTVEXH
>
>For an input value of final proper velocity Uend, the program cal-
>culates the Vend, the gend and the theta.  Then for values of Vexh
>increasing from 0.01 in increments of 0.01, the program calculates
>the eff until a maximum is passed.  The optimum Vexh is calculated
>by fitting a second-degree curve to the three points that include
>the maximum.  The value of the maximum is simply taken to be the
>value preceding the drop.  The ratios of initial antimatter mass
>to Mbo and Mi are derived from expressions above-
>
>     Ma/Mbo = (r - 1)(gexh - 1)/gexh
>        eff = (gend - 1) gexh/[(r - 1)(gexh - 1)]
>            = (gend - 1)/(Ma/Mbo)
>     Ma/Mbo = (gend - 1)/eff
>        Mam = (1/2) Ma
>    Mam/Mbo = (gend - 1)/(2 eff)
>     Mam/Mi = (Mam/Mbo)(Mbo/Mi)
>            = (Mam/Mbo)/r
>            = (gend - 1)/(2 eff r)
>
>C     PROGRAM OPTVEXH                                 4/2/96
>  101 FORMAT(2X, 21H Final Proper Vel = ?)
>  102 FORMAT(2X, 15H Opt Exh Vel = , F6.4, 18H Max Energy Eff = ,
>     &  F6.4, 17H Antimatter/Mi = , F6.4)
>  103 FORMAT(2X, 8H VEXH = , F4.2, 7H EFF = , F6.4)
>    2 CONTINUE
>      WRITE(*,101)
>      READ(*,*) UEND               !final proper velocity, ltyr/yr
>      IF(UEND .EQ. 0.) GO TO 99
>      VEND = UEND/SQRT(1. + UEND*UEND)
>      GAMEND = 1./SQRT(1. - VEND*VEND)
>      THETA = LOG(UEND + SQRT(UEND*UEND + 1.))   !asinh
>      VEXH = 0.01
>      VEXHN = VEXH
>    1 CONTINUE
>      VEXHNN = VEXHN
>      VEXHN = VEXH
>      VEXH = VEXH + 0.01
>      RN = R
>      R = 1.01
>      IF(VEXH .GT. .05) R = EXP(THETA/VEXH)
>      GAMEX = 1./SQRT(1. - VEXH*VEXH)
>      EFFNN = EFFN
>      EFFN = EFF
>      EFF = (GAMEND - 1.) * GAMEX/((R - 1.) * (GAMEX - 1.))
>C      WRITE(*,103) VEXH, EFF
>      IF(EFF .LT. EFFN .AND. VEXH .GT. 0.1) THEN
>        Y1 = EFF
>        Y2 = EFFN
>        Y3 = EFFNN
>        X1 = VEXH
>        X2 = VEXHN
>        X3 = VEXHNN
>        A = ((Y1-Y2)*(X2-X3)-(Y2-Y3)*(X1-X2))/
>     &      ((X1*X1-X2*X2)*(X2-X3)-(X2*X2-X3*X3)*(X1-X2))
>        B = ((Y1-Y2) - A*(X1*X1-X2*X2))/(X1-X2)
>        OPTVEXH = -B/(2.*A)
>        AMRATIO = (GAMEND - 1.)/(2.*EFFN*RN)
>        WRITE(*,102) OPTVEXH, EFFN, AMRATIO
>        GO TO 2
>      END IF
>      GO TO 1
>   99 STOP
>      END


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David@interworld.com (David Levine)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,
        kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Broken Draft on New Lit Server
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 15:15:34 -0500

Huuummm
Ok, so the Save to HTML function in WordPerfect has a couple bugs. I went
through by hand and corrected all the links, reloaded everything to Daves
machine, tested and fixed everything.  ALL the links now work! ALL the
images come up!  SO SOMEBODY LOOK AT IT!

As I said I'll spruce it up a bit as time permits.

Kelly



At 4:49 PM 4/2/96, David Levine wrote:
>KellySt@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> HELP DAVE!
>> I loaded my current draft of the Explorer Class, Starship Design status
>> report, and Support craft web documents, to your workstations prototype LIT
>> site.  But the links don't work right.  Most of the images don't come up, and
>> some of the interdocument links arn't working.
>
>Your links contain escaped characters instead of the
>underscores that are actually there.  That's probably
>what's wrong. Also, you back up one folder in the
>directory structure, and then enter the wrong folder.
>For instance,
>../Explorer%20Class%20folder/Explorer-Ovr.JPG
>should probably be:
>../Explorer_Class/Explorer-Ovr.JPG
>or, better yet, just:
>Explorer-Ovr.JPG
>since it's in the same directory.
>
>> Oh Dave, mind if I up load a few meg of packground documents?  I figured it
>> might make a good reference archive.  Also, my hard drive at work has a lot
>> more space then the ones on my home computers, and some of the image files
>> are bulky!.  If nothing else, if i could park some of the big files there for
>> ftping to home later I would appreciate it.  (One of the 3d graphics data
>> bases is 13 meg!)
>
>Well, okay, but within reason.  Right now there's only
>70 megs or so on the thing.
>
>--
>David Levine
>Application Engineer
>InterWorld Technology Ventures, Inc.
>http://www.interworld.com/staff/david/
>david@interworld.com


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Fri Apr  5 03:37:11 GMT 1996
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	["2581" "Thu" "4" "April" "1996" "15:30:20" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "78" "Re: Broken Draft on New Lit Server" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil "Broken Draft on New Lit Server" nil nil]
	nil)
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
Cc: David@interworld.com (David Levine), KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Broken Draft on New Lit Server
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 15:30:20 -0500

Oh, Its at:


http://165.254.130.90/LIT/InterStellar/project

At 3:15 PM 4/4/96, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>Huuummm
>Ok, so the Save to HTML function in WordPerfect has a couple bugs. I went
>through by hand and corrected all the links, reloaded everything to Daves
>machine, tested and fixed everything.  ALL the links now work! ALL the
>images come up!  SO SOMEBODY LOOK AT IT!
>
>As I said I'll spruce it up a bit as time permits.
>
>Kelly
>
>
>
>At 4:49 PM 4/2/96, David Levine wrote:
>>KellySt@aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>> HELP DAVE!
>>> I loaded my current draft of the Explorer Class, Starship Design status
>>> report, and Support craft web documents, to your workstations prototype LIT
>>> site.  But the links don't work right.  Most of the images don't come
>>>up, and
>>> some of the interdocument links arn't working.
>>
>>Your links contain escaped characters instead of the
>>underscores that are actually there.  That's probably
>>what's wrong. Also, you back up one folder in the
>>directory structure, and then enter the wrong folder.
>>For instance,
>>../Explorer%20Class%20folder/Explorer-Ovr.JPG
>>should probably be:
>>../Explorer_Class/Explorer-Ovr.JPG
>>or, better yet, just:
>>Explorer-Ovr.JPG
>>since it's in the same directory.
>>
>>> Oh Dave, mind if I up load a few meg of packground documents?  I figured it
>>> might make a good reference archive.  Also, my hard drive at work has a lot
>>> more space then the ones on my home computers, and some of the image files
>>> are bulky!.  If nothing else, if i could park some of the big files
>>>there for
>>> ftping to home later I would appreciate it.  (One of the 3d graphics data
>>> bases is 13 meg!)
>>
>>Well, okay, but within reason.  Right now there's only
>>70 megs or so on the thing.
>>
>>--
>>David Levine
>>Application Engineer
>>InterWorld Technology Ventures, Inc.
>>http://www.interworld.com/staff/david/
>>david@interworld.com
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
>Sr. Systems Engineer
>Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
>(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Fri Apr  5 23:31:52 GMT 1996
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	["822" "Fri" "5" "April" "1996" "16:30:33" "-0500" "DotarSojat@aol.com" "DotarSojat@aol.com" nil "19" "Re: Optimum Interstellar Rockets" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: DotarSojat@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, KellySt@aol.com,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: Re: Optimum Interstellar Rockets
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 16:30:33 -0500

At 2:06 PM 4/4/96, Kelly Starks wrote:
>Other than complexity, would adjusting the exaust vel for opt-
>imum at ships current vel (I.E. as the ships speed increases.
>Changing the exaust velocity for the optimum for that speed)
>buy us anything?

You decide.  (It would probably require a sophisticated math-
ematical technique called "the calculus of variations" to tell
us exactly how much such an optimum exhaust-velocity program
would buy us.)

Suppose we could find an exhaust-velocity profile that could
raise the kinetic-energy efficiency to 100 percent.  Would mul-
tiplying all the minimum-antimatter ratios by 0.6+ (the maximum
kinetic-energy efficiency for constant exhaust velocity) signif-
icantly change the implications of the numbers in the table?
The ratios already seem surprisingly small.

Regards, Rex

From popserver Sat Apr  6 19:21:24 GMT 1996
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	["1163" "Sat" "6" "April" "1996" "20:58:24" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" "<199604061858.AA08809@student.utwente.nl>" "27" "Problems with beaming" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Problems with beaming
Date: Sat, 06 Apr 1996 20:58:24 +0100

To Lee,

>There are two problems really. First of all; there is the inverse square
>law, the intensity (and therefore the power) of radiation decreases as the
>inverse square of the distance. I have not seen anyone's calculations here
>take into account the amount of power that must be generated HERE in order
>to provide a reasonable amount of power THERE. 

Yes, but lasers keep a tight beam and thus their diametre (cross-section)
does not increase with distance and the energy-density (per surface) stays
the same.
So I don't see a problem here.

>The second problem involves another aspect of basic optical diffraction
>theory; the Rayleigh criterion defines the required diameter of the laser
>transmitter. For yellow light, a 400 km aperture transmitter would be
>required to just fill a light sail at Tau Ceti, 11 light years away.

The criterion of Rayleigh states that two wavelengths l and l+dl are just
resolved in the n-th spectral order when the maximum of one spectral-line
falls upon the first minimum of the other.
I don't see what resolvement has to do with beaming power, could you explain
what I missed?
(What formula did you use?)


Timothy

From popserver Sun Apr  7 20:25:57 GMT 1996
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	["1008" "Sun" "7" "April" "1996" "16:22:56" "-0400" "DotarSojat@aol.com" "DotarSojat@aol.com" nil "20" "Problems with beaming" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil]
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From: DotarSojat@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, KellySt@aol.com,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: Problems with beaming
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 16:22:56 -0400

A laser beam with wavelength lambda that has been formed by a
primary objective mirror with an aperture diameter D will di-
verge in the far field (never mind, that's where you want to
work) due to diffraction.  I don't have the explicit relations
at home, but I believe that the angular width of a "diffraction-
limited" beam at half maximum is the same as that used in the
Rayleigh criterion: 1.22 lambda/D.

This width is further broadened due to (1) thermal effects in
the lasing medium, by a factor called "beam quality" that is in
the range 1.1-1.3, depending on the type of laser, and (2) beam-
pointing instability called "jitter," usually about one-third
the diffraction-limited beam divergence, that enters in a root-
sum-squares way.  The overall angular beam width of a contempo-
rary laser "weapon" is of the order of a microradian.  A factor
of ten reduction (narrowing) in beam width by the time an inter-
stellar mission would be undertaken would not be unreasonable to
expect.

Regards, Rex

From popserver Mon Apr  8 03:08:39 GMT 1996
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	["740" "Sun" "7" "April" "1996" "22:48:22" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "19" "Re: Problems with beaming" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Problems with beaming
Date: Sun, 07 Apr 1996 22:48:22 +0100

To Steve,

> > Yes, but lasers keep a tight beam and thus their diametre (cross-section)
> > does not increase with distance and the energy-density (per surface) stays
> > the same.
> > So I don't see a problem here.
>
>Actually, practical lasers do diverge with distance.  Coherency does not
>mean unidirectionality.

This I knew, but I thought (but was not sure) that the light coming out is
higly directional not alone because of the mirrors, but also because of the
nature of the stimulated emission process.
Could you answer the following question: If I use a normal light source
(glowing wire) and place it in a tube with mirrors like in a laser, would I
get the same kind of intense parallel beam? (not coherent of course)


Timothy

From popserver Mon Apr  8 18:29:16 GMT 1996
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	["285" "Mon" "8" "April" "1996" "12:02:37" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "11" "Re: Problems with beaming" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Problems with beaming
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 12:02:37 +0100

To Rex,

>work) due to diffraction.  I don't have the explicit relations
>at home, but I believe that the angular width of a "diffraction-
>limited" beam at half maximum is the same as that used in the
>Rayleigh criterion: 1.22 lambda/D.

"Angular width" is that in radians?


Timothy

From popserver Wed Apr 10 10:16:43 GMT 1996
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	["1509" "Wed" "10" "April" "1996" "05:14:18" "-0500" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "34" "new web site/status report." "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: interstellar drive group , DotarSojat@aol.com,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: new web site/status report.
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 05:14:18 -0500 (CDT)


Hey Kelly, I want a word with you.   >:-)

I read your status report on the new server. ( a overall good job, but 
that's beside the point) 

I wish to take extreme umbrage where you stated (and I quote) 

"How far did we get so far?  Well we have a couple ideas that might 
work.  The Explorer class could get you to the nearer star systems in a 
usable amount of time; if can mine enough fuel to feed them, and can pay 
for all the infrastructure they'd need.  The microwave powered craft have 
some bugs (and an incredible thirst for power) so they might not be 
possible, and are very likely to be extreemly impractical."
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

"extreemly (sic) impractical."?  I beg to differ.  The Mars design is far 
more practical (At 1G continuous thrust) than any other design on the 
table.  Show me another design that gets us there as fast.  Even the 
antimatter rockets can't get up to .99 lightspeed with a mass ratio of 52.  
Yes, they're going to be big and hungry, but considering the benefits in 
time dialation, I think it's well worth the cost.

You obviously can't be trusted with being impartial where our respective 
designs are involved  ;)  Therefore I have no choice but to help you in 
this matter to assure a fair and even treatment for the MARS.


That said, I must say I like the overall design and summary, as well as the 
cool headers.  May I redesign Kelly_bar.jpg for myself, so as to maintain 
the document's overall integrity?


Kevin

From popserver Wed Apr 10 21:14:00 GMT 1996
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From: DotarSojat@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, KellySt@aol.com,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: Re: new web site/status report
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:37:04 -0400

On 4/10/96 at 10:35 am EDT, Kevin wrote-

>(At 1G continuous thrust)...Even the antimatter rockets can't
>get up to .99 lightspeed with a mass ratio of 52.

Two points--

1. With the saturation of apparent velocity, the implications
of .99 lightspeed are obscured.  A peak apparent velocity of
0.99 ltyr/yr represents a peak proper velocity of 7.0179
ltyr/yr and an acceleration distance (at 1g) of 5.90 ltyr.
(I.e., a destination distance of 11.8 ltyr with 1g deceleration,
also.  BTW, my astronomy book gives the distance to tau Ceti as
10.3+/-0.3 ltyr.)  What mass ratio does MARS require to decel-
erate at 1g from this peak velocity?  (I think that's the 52,
from Timothy's 3/30 table, that you're quoting, which is for
100 percent conversion of captured microwave energy to exhaust
kinetic energy.)

2. An optimum antimatter rocket with a peak proper velocity Uend
of 7.0179 ltyr/yr has an optimum constant exhaust velocity Vexh
of 0.8851.  The required mass ratio (r = exp[asinh(Uend)/Vexh])
is 19.89.  (These calculations assume no energy losses, but also
assume no gain from optimizing the exhaust-velocity profile.)

Regards, Rex

From popserver Wed Apr 10 21:14:16 GMT 1996
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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: DotarSojat@aol.com
Cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, KellySt@aol.com,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: Re: new web site/status report
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:03:38 -0500

At 4:37 PM 4/10/96, DotarSojat@aol.com wrote:
>On 4/10/96 at 10:35 am EDT, Kevin wrote-
>
>>(At 1G continuous thrust)...Even the antimatter rockets can't
>>get up to .99 lightspeed with a mass ratio of 52.
>
>Two points--
>
>1. With the saturation of apparent velocity, the implications
>of .99 lightspeed are obscured.  A peak apparent velocity of
>0.99 ltyr/yr represents a peak proper velocity of 7.0179
>ltyr/yr and an acceleration distance (at 1g) of 5.90 ltyr.
>(I.e., a destination distance of 11.8 ltyr with 1g deceleration,
>also.  BTW, my astronomy book gives the distance to tau Ceti as
>10.3+/-0.3 ltyr.)  What mass ratio does MARS require to decel-
>erate at 1g from this peak velocity?  (I think that's the 52,
>from Timothy's 3/30 table, that you're quoting, which is for
>100 percent conversion of captured microwave energy to exhaust
>kinetic energy.)
>
>2. An optimum antimatter rocket with a peak proper velocity Uend
>of 7.0179 ltyr/yr has an optimum constant exhaust velocity Vexh
>of 0.8851.  The required mass ratio (r = exp[asinh(Uend)/Vexh])
>is 19.89.  (These calculations assume no energy losses, but also
>assume no gain from optimizing the exhaust-velocity profile.)
>
>Regards, Rex

Can I assume the 19.89 mass ration is composed of 1/4th antimatter and
3/4ths reaction mass (normal matter)?

Kelly

P.S.
By the way the fusion fuel mass ratio I got for the Explorer Class was
about 55 to 1.  Since I thought the reaction mass ration for the MARS was
less, I don't know if 52 to 1 refers to that.  Unless the MARS number I was
remenbering was for a 1/3rd C decel?

P.S.S.
By the way, I was wounderin.  DID ANYONE LOOK AT THE NEW WEB PAGES!!??  the
ones under Explorer_Class, Status_Report, and Support_Craft at Daves

http://165.254.130.90/LIT/InterStellar/project

Theres 50 - 60 pages of stuff up there so I expected some comment from
somebody.  SOMEONE COULD AT LEAST LOOK AT THE PICTURES!


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: "L. Parker" 
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Problems with beaming
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:36:01 -0500

Hi Timothy,

Sorry this has taken so long, but work before pleasure...

I did not mean to stir up such a hornet's nest with my comments (not
objections) but I will try to respond as best I may. Rex has already
addressed several of the issues you questioned, and I think Steve had some
input too. Plase forgive me if I am redundant.

At 08:58 PM 4/6/96 +0100, you wrote:

>Yes, but lasers keep a tight beam and thus their diametre (cross-section)
>does not increase with distance and the energy-density (per surface) stays
>the same.
>So I don't see a problem here.

No lasers, do not keep a tight beam, only compared to incoherent light can
the laser beam (or maser) be described as tight. While I will admit that the
inverse square rule primarily applies to SUNLIGHT, there is still some
attenuation even with a laser. I don't have the equations or the figures to
give an exact or even estimated amount. All I can do is assure you that
across 10 to 11 light years, you will lose a SIGNIFICANT amount of your
initial power. This is an inherent design limitation of the MARS plan. I was
simply trying to wake somebody up to make them examine more closely a point
I felt they had missed. (It seems to have worked.)

My point was that ALL of the currently stated plans have design limitations,
many or most of which are being ignored in our enthusiasm.

>The criterion of Rayleigh states that two wavelengths l and l+dl are just
>resolved in the n-th spectral order when the maximum of one spectral-line
>falls upon the first minimum of the other.
>I don't see what resolvement has to do with beaming power, could you explain
>what I missed?
>(What formula did you use?)

RAYLEIGH'S CRITERIA:

Where
theta=diffraction limited beam convergence angle
r=separation between light source, S, and sail
ds=sail diameter

The beam of radiation just fills the sail, thus minimizing energy that
bypasses the sail. For a diffraction limited radiation source
(monochromatic) and theta a small angle, Rayleigh's Criterion that
determines the required diameter of the radiation transmitter is:

sin(theta)~theta=1.22*lambda/d

where lambda is the radiation wavelength and d is the diameter of the
optical system that collimates the beam. The larger the transmitter and the
smaller the wavelength, the sharper the beam collimation. But for
interstellar distances, by geometry:

sin(theta)~theta=ds/2r

Therefore,

ds/2r=1.22*lambda/d.

The distance at which the beam will just fill the sail is then:

r=ds*d/2.44*lambda

If radiation is not to be wasted in "bypass" as the sail travels away from
the radiation transmitter, either the sail must unfurl (expand) with time,
the transmitter must grow in aperture, or both must be large enough at the
outset to be good for all ranges during the mission.

Okay, now that the math is out of the way, what does it all mean?

Simply put, the problem is not the same one every one has been discussing here. 
FIRST, the beam WILL NOT be wider than the sail for any practical mission
and to do so is WASTEFUL.

SECOND, for reasons previously discussed, the power requirements for beamed
propulsion are EXORBITANT so lets not be wasting any energy in "bypass".

THIRD, there is an absolute upper limit at which beamed propulsion becomes
unfeasible due to the required aperture size. I think every one would agree
that a 400 km aperture is impressive even with phased array technology, that
being the aperture required for yellow light (a solar pumped laser) and a
mission to TC.

Note that a maser would require a larger aperture or array than the yellow
light laser, so this discussion applies equally to both pure solar sails,
laser driven sails, and the MARS design.

'Lest I be thought overly pessimistic, I don't believe ANY of these
limitations are insuperable. I think that given current technology we could
do this. Given known and expected advances, I am sure we could do this.
However, this also applies to each of the other currently proposed methods.

Lee Parker

P.S. Rex, do you happen to have a formula for the attenuation of power in a
laser? With your previous associations with SDI I hope you might. I can't
seem to find ANYTHING in my references.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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	["1450" "Thu" "11" "April" "1996" "01:19:18" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "33" "Re: new web site/status report" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: new web site/status report
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 01:19:18 +0100

>Can I assume the 19.89 mass ration is composed of 1/4th antimatter and
>3/4ths reaction mass (normal matter)?

Yes, that's about the case (25.35% to be more exact)

>P.S.S.
>By the way, I was wounderin.  DID ANYONE LOOK AT THE NEW WEB PAGES!!??  the
>ones under Explorer_Class, Status_Report, and Support_Craft at Daves
>
>http://165.254.130.90/LIT/InterStellar/project
>
>Theres 50 - 60 pages of stuff up there so I expected some comment from
>somebody.  SOMEONE COULD AT LEAST LOOK AT THE PICTURES!

Well last time I looked, I had not much time and thought to have found only
5 pages (now I see that I missed several links). This was 6 days ago. At
home I have limited access-time so when knowing that I need to be on the web
for several hours I go to university where it is free and unlimited. Because
I don't live on campus and currently have holidays I need to go there which
takes an hour by bus.
For this reason it would be handy if the pages are zipped up somewhere, so
that I can make a handy reference copy at home and read it in my comfi chair.

Besides all this I wrote a message a week ago asking if my page looked OK,
never heard anyone about it (except Rex in a private letter). I don't care
(well I do) but I do not like you telling to look at your page fast while
you yourself are neglecting my simple request (one single page).

I had planned to go to the university tomorrow, so then I will look once
more at your page.


Timothy

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: lparker@gnt.net, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
cc: David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        stevev@efn.org, bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Problems with beaming
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 20:18:52 -0400

> Simply put, the problem is not the same one every one 
> has been discussing here.  FIRST, the beam WILL NOT be 
> wider than the sail for any practical mission and to do 
> so is WASTEFUL.

NOOOO!  You must, at any price, make the beam far larger than the sail at all
times in the flight.  Yes it will be exorbidantly wasteful.  I expect at
least a 90% loss rate of power.  Lifes tough.

Kelly  whos toired of saying this over and over.

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, David@interworld.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, kgstar@most.magec.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com, stevev@efn.org,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re: new web site/status report.
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 20:18:37 -0400

to: Kevin C Houston

Hum?  why didn't I get this at work?  All I got was something from Rex.  Big
time company, cheap mail system. :(

I was begining to wounder why no one was commenting!


> Hey Kelly, I want a word with you.   >:-)

> I read your status report on the new server. ( a overall 
> good job, but  that's beside the point) 

Not to Me!  ;)


> I wish to take extreme umbrage where you stated
>  (and I quote) 

> "How far did we get so far?  Well we have a couple ideas 
> that might work.  The Explorer class could get you to 
> the nearer star systems in a usable amount of time; if 
> can mine enough fuel to feed them, and can pay for all 
> the infrastructure they'd need.  The microwave powered 
> craft have some bugs (and an incredible thirst for power) 
> so they might not be possible, and are very likely to 
> be extreemly impractical."
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


> "extreemly (sic) impractical."?  I beg to differ.  The 
> Mars design is far more practical (At 1G continuous 
> thrust) than any other design on the table.  Show me 
> another design that gets us there as fast.  Even the 
> antimatter rockets can't get up to .99 lightspeed with a 
> mass ratio of 52.  Yes, they're going to be big and hungry, 
> but considering the benefits in time dialation, I think 
> it's well worth the cost.

??  Ah, when you start by having to solar panel Mercury in order to power the
thing and add in such huge sails, and arnt sure you have brakes; I begin to
doubt.  ;(


> You obviously can't be trusted with being impartial where 
> our respective designs are involved  ;)  Therefore I have 
> no choice but to help you in this matter to assure a fair 
> and even treatment for the MARS.

Great!  I'll even throw in a custom cool header for your MARS system.


> That said, I must say I like the overall design and summary,
>  as well as the cool headers.  May I redesign Kelly_bar.jpg 
> for myself, so as to maintain the document's overall 
> integrity?

Sure, but I think different 'Projects'  Explorer, MARS, Argosy, etc  (I think
we need to work up an anti matter one). should have destinctive headers.
 Also Star Ship Design Project.  Maybe I'll tinker with my3d graphic program.
 Need to get serious about job hunting thou.  I want to be out of here by
late summer.

Glad you liked it (and that I don't need to rough out MARS by myself!)

Kelly

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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: DotarSojat@aol.com
cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, KellySt@aol.com,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: Re: new web site/status report
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 23:35:36 -0500 (CDT)


Rex:	
>Kevin:
> >(At 1G continuous thrust)...Even the antimatter rockets can't
> >get up to .99 lightspeed with a mass ratio of 52.
> 
> Two points--
> 
> 1. With the saturation of apparent velocity, the implications
> of .99 lightspeed are obscured.  A peak apparent velocity of

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this first sentence.

> 0.99 ltyr/yr represents a peak proper velocity of 7.0179
> ltyr/yr and an acceleration distance (at 1g) of 5.90 ltyr.
> (I.e., a destination distance of 11.8 ltyr with 1g deceleration,
> also.  BTW, my astronomy book gives the distance to tau Ceti as
> 10.3+/-0.3 ltyr.)  What mass ratio does MARS require to decel-
> erate at 1g from this peak velocity?  (I think that's the 52,
> from Timothy's 3/30 table, that you're quoting, which is for
> 100 percent conversion of captured microwave energy to exhaust
> kinetic energy.)
> 
> 2. An optimum antimatter rocket with a peak proper velocity Uend
> of 7.0179 ltyr/yr has an optimum constant exhaust velocity Vexh
> of 0.8851.  The required mass ratio (r = exp[asinh(Uend)/Vexh])
> is 19.89.  (These calculations assume no energy losses, but also
> assume no gain from optimizing the exhaust-velocity profile.)
> 

Okay, I stand corrected on the mass ratio point.  but at least we can 
make microwaves  :)  (and don't tell me about the nine or so anti 
hydrogens that CERN got to live about 40 nanoseconds)  

I do think we should explore anti-matter rockets and see if they solve 
any of the really hard problems (like energy cost)

Kevin

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Message-ID: 
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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: "L. Parker" 
cc: Timothy van der Linden ,
        David , KellySt ,
         rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Problems with beaming
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 00:15:30 -0500 (CDT)



Lee:
> Hi Timothy,
> 
> My point was that ALL of the currently stated plans have design limitations,
> many or most of which are being ignored in our enthusiasm.

Kevin interjects:
Yes lee, but you keep bringing up _engineering_ difficulties.  We are 
still talking about Physical Possibilities/impossibilities.  The 
limitations you point out (and they are important) haven't been ignored, 
just postponed.  after all, no use talking about collimation strategies 
if the maser-induced momentum is going to consistently outpush the engine 
thrust (which happily is not the case for MARS)

> RAYLEIGH'S CRITERIA:
> 
> Where
> theta=diffraction limited beam convergence angle
> r=separation between light source, S, and sail
> ds=sail diameter
> 
> The beam of radiation just fills the sail, thus minimizing energy that
> bypasses the sail. For a diffraction limited radiation source
> (monochromatic) and theta a small angle, Rayleigh's Criterion that
> determines the required diameter of the radiation transmitter is:

First, there is no way to make the beam "just fill the sail" this is a 
theoretical minimum energy waste condition.  The problem (assuming for 
the moment that we can have a n-1000 Km wide Maser generator) is that the 
beam will "jitter".  I have put forth a 'back-of-the-envolope calculation 
that suggests that this deviation could be no smaller than 650 Km in any 
(random) direction. 

There are three solutions that I can think of to get around this problem:
1) make the beam radius 650 km larger than the sail.
2) make the sail radius 650 km larger than the beam.
3) increase the beam density so that the time averaged beam provides 
enough power even if it does jitter away.

all three of these waste energy.  I've no idea which one wastes less.

> 
> Simply put, the problem is not the same one every one has been 
> discussing here.  
> FIRST, the beam WILL NOT be wider than the sail for any practical mission 
> and to do so is WASTEFUL. 

I'd be happy to hear any reasonable alternative.  NB 'not going' is not 
considered reasonable

> SECOND, for reasons previously discussed, the power requirements for 
> beamed propulsion are EXORBITANT so lets not be wasting any energy in 
> "bypass". 

Now, here is where we differ in philosophy,  I'm of the "if your going to 
be throwing power around like it was water (and an oceanful at that) who 
cares if a volume equal to the great lakes gets wasted"


> THIRD, there is an absolute upper limit at which beamed propulsion becomes 
> unfeasible due to the required aperture size. I think every one would 
> agree that a 400 km aperture is impressive even with phased array 
> technology, that being the aperture required for yellow light (a solar 
> pumped laser) and a mission to TC. 

Impressive yes, impossible no, impractical ... maybe (not sure yet)

Assuming some phased array, it is only required that the longest distance 
between two transmitters be 400 Km (or whatever it works out to for Masers)
and given that we are going to have to build the array on mercury, 
putting the maser transmitters around the 45 deg south Latitude (pointing 
toward the south) would give an effective maser transmitter of 2400 Km.
we routinely phase couple radio telescopes here on earth with that same 
distance between them.
 
> Note that a maser would require a larger aperture or array than the 
> yellow light laser, so this discussion applies equally to both pure 
> solar sails, laser driven sails, and the MARS design. 

>'Lest I be thought overly pessimistic,

Better a disappointed pessamist than a dissapointed optimist  ;)

Kevin

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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: new web site/status report
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 96 19:00:42 +0200

> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Wed Apr 10 23:06:10 1996
> 
> P.S.S.
> By the way, I was wounderin.  DID ANYONE LOOK AT THE NEW WEB PAGES!!??  the
> ones under Explorer_Class, Status_Report, and Support_Craft at Daves
> 
> http://165.254.130.90/LIT/InterStellar/project
> 
> Theres 50 - 60 pages of stuff up there so I expected some comment from
> somebody.  SOMEONE COULD AT LEAST LOOK AT THE PICTURES!
> 
Kelly, feel relieved  ;-)
I have had currently no time to take active part in the discussions,
even my reading of the stuff rarely achieves the 10% mark...
But seeing the above cry for attention, I did make a peep...

The contents seems quite impressive, though the form not so much
(e.g., I can't figure what some huge photos really portray, and why?).

I would have lots of comments and remarks, 
and some probably quite agitated -
do you remember our quarrels, Kelly?  :-(
However, no time now.
Be prepared, though - you do not know the day... ;-))

Regards,

-- Zenon Kulpa

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: new web site/status report
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:54:00 -0500

At 1:19 AM 4/11/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>>Can I assume the 19.89 mass ration is composed of 1/4th antimatter and
>>3/4ths reaction mass (normal matter)?
>
>Yes, that's about the case (25.35% to be more exact)

5 times the ships mass in Anti matter and 15 times in matter.  Err.


>>P.S.S.
>>By the way, I was wounderin.  DID ANYONE LOOK AT THE NEW WEB PAGES!!??  the
>>ones under Explorer_Class, Status_Report, and Support_Craft at Daves
>>
>>http://165.254.130.90/LIT/InterStellar/project
>>
>>Theres 50 - 60 pages of stuff up there so I expected some comment from
>>somebody.  SOMEONE COULD AT LEAST LOOK AT THE PICTURES!
>
>Well last time I looked, I had not much time and thought to have found only
>5 pages (now I see that I missed several links). This was 6 days ago. At
>home I have limited access-time so when knowing that I need to be on the web
>for several hours I go to university where it is free and unlimited. Because
>I don't live on campus and currently have holidays I need to go there which
>takes an hour by bus.
>For this reason it would be handy if the pages are zipped up somewhere, so
>that I can make a handy reference copy at home and read it in my comfi chair.
>
>Besides all this I wrote a message a week ago asking if my page looked OK,
>never heard anyone about it (except Rex in a private letter). I don't care
>(well I do) but I do not like you telling to look at your page fast while
>you yourself are neglecting my simple request (one single page).
>
>I had planned to go to the university tomorrow, so then I will look once
>more at your page.
>
>
>Timothy

Oh I'm sorry, I just thought you were listing the equations in a small page
and linking to a program that was incompatable with me anyway.  Since I
can't follow half your equation I thought I was out of the loop.

'Page' is aukward term for web docs.  I keep thinking of about a printed
sheet of pager worth of text.


comments.

Netscape did seem to have any problems.  All images/equations seemed to
display fine.

How on earth do you pronounce "Yrev Tsaf"?  Does that mean anything special?

The fine print with purple charcters is a little hard to read but not a big
problem.

Some of the tables would be more helpfull if related to a physcal thing.
For example where you list fusion energy to specific impluse.  Fusion
energy is listed in what I think are mass conversion ratios.   (100, 200,
300, etc.)  Which would be more help full if you had a table showing what
fusion reactions generate those amounts.  Or more clearly explained the
table.

This is a big issue to me, since I'm trying to consider things from an
engineer point.  So I usually need exaust velocity/specific impulse, or
power in watts per kilo/pound of fuel, or something.

Mentioning which units your using in the equations would be a big help too
(kilos, gram, mols - watts, ergs, Joules, etc.)

Some parts I couldn't follow.  For example.

===========================================================
Results of the calculations:

 Mass at time t
                   : ( 8.1) ( 8.2)
 Power needed at time t
                   : (14.1) (14.2)
 Total Energy needed
                   : (12.1) (12.2)


Use (xx.1) when condition (3.3) is true, otherwise use (xx.2)
===============================================================

I have no idea what your saying here.  In general I had a hard time
following the arangement of the equations and the numbering scheme.

at one point:

===========================================
Energy mass needed:
(3)

Mass left over after "extracting" the energy:
(3.0)

The following formulas determine if and how much mass should be dumped:
(3.1)
(3.2)

This condition can be rewritten:

(3.3)

f is (Total mass)/(mass that can be converted to energy)
f is always bigger than or equal to 1

Examples:

       For matter & anti-matter mixture f=1 and L[t]=0
       For  De+He > He ...... fusion (3.5E14 J/kg)
       f=257 and L[t]=256k[t]-j[t]
=============================================================

I couldn't fiqure out how to work back to the equations.  Possibly going
through the use of the equations a step at a time or something, might help.

I tend to get lost in the equation section.  Which can be frustrating since
it seems to be covering info I want to get.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, KellySt@aol.com,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: new web site/status report
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:00:44 -0500

At 7:00 PM 4/11/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Wed Apr 10 23:06:10 1996
>>
>> P.S.S.
>> By the way, I was wounderin.  DID ANYONE LOOK AT THE NEW WEB PAGES!!??  the
>> ones under Explorer_Class, Status_Report, and Support_Craft at Daves
>>
>> http://165.254.130.90/LIT/InterStellar/project
>>
>> Theres 50 - 60 pages of stuff up there so I expected some comment from
>> somebody.  SOMEONE COULD AT LEAST LOOK AT THE PICTURES!
>>
>Kelly, feel relieved  ;-)
>I have had currently no time to take active part in the discussions,
>even my reading of the stuff rarely achieves the 10% mark...
>But seeing the above cry for attention, I did make a peep...
>
>The contents seems quite impressive, though the form not so much
>(e.g., I can't figure what some huge photos really portray, and why?).

Some are decorative.  (the delta ship fling past the station with the
turbulat wake.  I liked the wake!)  Others need updating, but I figured
I'ld see what parts were, and wern't clear to people.

>I would have lots of comments and remarks,
>and some probably quite agitated -
>do you remember our quarrels, Kelly?  :-(

Oh yeah!

>However, no time now.
>Be prepared, though - you do not know the day... ;-))
>
>Regards,
>
>-- Zenon Kulpa

Take your best shot.  ;)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
Cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden),
        KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Space Navy ideas from '50's
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:03:33 -0500

Hi, I ran across the following.  Thought it might be interesting to folks.

Kelly




Subject: Deep Space Bombardment Force
From: Bruce Lewis 
Date: 28 Mar 1996 17:34:21 GMT
Message-ID: <4jeiit$ema@news03.deltanet.com>

Back in the 1960s, before the advent of
the stealthy missile-carrying submarine, the
USAF had developed a concept (Dyson, et. al)
for a Deep Space Bombardment Force
consisting of many deep-space vessels
armed with nuclear bombs for purposes
of deterrence. The idea was that the DSBF
would serve as a counterforce weapon to
prop up MAD.

The idea was discared with the success
of the Polaris program. However, recent
advances in ocean survellance technology
are casting doubt on the future of stealthy
submarine forces. If a submerged missile
boat could be accurately located by a blue-
green laser radar or an advanced synthetic
aperture radar mounted on a satellite, it
might be worthwhile to consider reviving
the concept of the Deep Space Bombardment
Force.

I assume that the United States will in the
future continue to consider a nuclear-armed
"weapon of last resort" as a necessary thing.
If so, and if surveillance techniques finally
gain the measure of ballistic missile submarines,
a deep-space strike force might be considered
desirable. The question for the reader: is such
a system practical given the situation above?

We know it is possible. The planning for the DSBF
was quite detailed and was considered workable
back in the late 1950s. I see a possible DSBF as
being a deep-space analog of the current missile
boat scenario: a stealthy force of ships capable of
conducting a devastating nuclear counterstrike
on command from an unpredictable position.=20
Instead of deep water, however, the ships of the
DSBF would rely on "deep space" to protect them
from detection by an enemy power. A DSBF "boomer"
might consist of an Orion-type nuclear pulse
vehicle with long-duration nuclear-electric "cruise"
engines added. The "boomer" would depart orbit
with a high velocity using the nuclear pulse system,
assuming an orbit in "deep" space, i.e. a cislunar
or Earth-tracking solar orbit, switching then to
the ion drive system to modify its orbit further.
The drive plume of the pulse system would, of course,
make the "boomer" visible to enemy observers
while in use, but once the ion drive was switched
on and used to modify the ship's orbit unpredictably,
the ability of an enemy to predict its trajectory in
space would be close to nil. The ship would for
all practical purposes "disappear" once the ion
drive systems came into play. As is well-known, the
inverse-square law would prevent all but the largest
search radars from being able to track the ships
one they were in flight; with every second after the
ion drive is employed, the spherical area of space
where the ship could possibly be would increase.
A radar capable of searching the entire volume
of cislunar space to find such ships would have to
be located on the moon or on orbit=8Band would, of
course, be the first target for an attack in the
event of war.

The ships themselves would be large, with fractional
mass-ratios possible due to the high delta v and IsP
of the nuclear pulse drive system. Such huge ships
could carry amenities equal to or surpassing those
on modern-day subs, vital for the maintenace of
crew functionality on long, deep space missions.
Problems of resupply might be alleviated by special
"freighter" versions of the basic "boomer" design; in
addition, the ships would probably be large enough to
be spun up axially, producing a moderate inertial
acceleration perpindicular to the hull of the vessel
and allowing the crew enough "gravity" to raise
enough crops to provide much of the ship's needed
oxygen and food, further reducing the need for
supply. This would also prevent calcium loss and
other problems of long-duration zero-gee exposure
for the crew. The high mass-ratio of these ships
would allow them to be constructed from ordinary
materials like heavy steel, easily obtained at the
fleet's "Luna Pearl Harbor" home base; these dense
hulls would provide the shielding from solar proton
and most galactic cosmic radiation the crew would
require. Storing the ship's water supply in bunkers
between the outer hull and the inner pressure hull
would further reduce ambient radiation within the
ship.

The ships might be "homeported" at Luna Pearl Harbor;
aluminum towers 60-100 miles tall could be built up
from the lunar surface to act as "piers" for ships in
dock, allowing for easy and efficiient rapid transit of
crews and cargoes from the base to the ships in port.

One big advantage of such deep-space bombardment
forces is communication. Current missile subs must
rise to periscope deth to receive firing orders from
their home countries or rely on innefficient super-longwave
radio at shallow depths. By contrast, the DSBF could
be in constant communicaton with national command
authorities by means of laser communications. These
beams could be invisibly directed at the ships while "at sea"
from a central facility at Luna Pearl Harbor.

Such a program would have a wealth of beneficial side
effects. To avoid radioactive contamination of Earth's
surface, the ships themselves would be assembled from
lunar materials at the "pier", with the construction materials
being raised into lunar orbit using the "pier" towers.
The lunar and orbital infrastructure needed to maintain the
DSBF program would provide thousands of "ordinary guy"
jobs like welding, electronics, and shipfitting for people
on Earth, who would in turn require housing, provisioning,
and recreational facilities in lunar situ, thus creating more
jobs. There would have to regular "airline" service to
space stations from Earth's surface, and regular service
from there to Luna Pearl Harbor as well=8Bmore jobs.
Finally, some of the "boomers" could be constructed as freighters
and deep-space exploration ships, providing even more
value. How about a thirty-day round-trip to Pluto with
a crew of 100? Ships like the ones described above would be
capable of such trips.=20

Since life aboard such ships would
resemble greatly life aboard modern-day submarines, it
might be wise to commission the ships as naval vessels
and crew them with retrained Navy "nuke" crews.

The DSBF program would do more
than insure the US an unassailable nuclear retailatory
force; it would open up the Solar System for colonization, much
as the sailing ships of old fulfilled both a military and exploratory
function. I think I've considered most of the major
issues of such a force above; now, let's discuss it
in detail.

Thanks,




Bruce Lewis  "The Freshmaker!"
Studio Go! Multimedia, LA                             =20
bchan@deltanet.com      =20


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Fri Apr 12 01:03:09 GMT 1996
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	["1571" "Thu" "11" "April" "1996" "16:54:41" "-0400" "DotarSojat@aol.com" "DotarSojat@aol.com" nil "32" "Re: problems with beaming" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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Message-ID: <960411165436_511378549@mail02.mail.aol.com>
From: DotarSojat@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, KellySt@aol.com,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: Re: problems with beaming
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:54:41 -0400

To Lee

A laser beam conforms with the inverse-square law because the
area through which it passes, at constant angular width, in-
creases as the square of the distance.  The attenuation in
interstellar space due to absorption by matter in the beam
and scattering out of the beam by that same matter is a small
effect compared with the inverse-square-law dissipation of the
beam power per unit target area.

A laser beam of yellow light (lambda about 0.6E-6 m) from an
objective mirror with a diameter D of 400 km (your number)
would have a diffraction-limited angular divergence
(1.22 lambda/D) of about 1.8E-12 radian.  (We ignore here
problems with maintaining the figure of a 400-km-diameter
mirror to within a fraction of the wavelength of the laser
light.)  At a distance of ten light-years (9.46E13 km), say,
the linear width of this laser beam would be about 170 km.
For a mirror diameter of 40 km, the beam width at ten light-
years would be 1700 km; for 4 km, 17,000 km.  In the middle
case, a sail with a diameter of 100 km, say, would capture
(100/1700)^2, or about 1/300th, of the beam power (assuming,
for simplicity, a constant power per unit area across the
beam), or about 1/3rd of the beam power at one light-year
distance.  The plausibility of a laser-propelled-sail pro-
ulsion system therefore seems to hinge on the feasibility of
making a many-km-diameter laser objective mirror with a sur-
face precision of a fraction of the wavelength of light
and/or making a laser with a power orders of magnitude
greater than the sail would use.

Regards, Rex

From popserver Sat Apr  6 19:41:50 GMT 1996
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	["1314" "Sat" "6" "April" "1996" "11:37:35" "-0800" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "26" "Problems with beaming" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil "Problems with beaming" nil nil]
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In-Reply-To: <199604061858.AA08809@student.utwente.nl>
References: <199604061858.AA08809@student.utwente.nl>
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Problems with beaming
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 11:37:35 -0800

Timothy van der Linden writes:
 > To Lee,
 > 
 > >There are two problems really. First of all; there is the inverse square
 > >law, the intensity (and therefore the power) of radiation decreases as the
 > >inverse square of the distance. I have not seen anyone's calculations here
 > >take into account the amount of power that must be generated HERE in order
 > >to provide a reasonable amount of power THERE. 
 > 
 > Yes, but lasers keep a tight beam and thus their diametre (cross-section)
 > does not increase with distance and the energy-density (per surface) stays
 > the same.
 > So I don't see a problem here.

Actually, practical lasers do diverge with distance.  Coherency does not
mean unidirectionality.

For example, lasers that work by reflecting light between two mirrors
produce a primary beam where an integral number of wavelengths N falls
between the mirrors, and a secondary annular beam where N+1 wavelengths
fall between the two mirrors, with a slight angle between the primary
beam and the secondary annular beam.  The angle isn't noticeable in
typical lasers and laboratory distances, since it's on the order of
milliradians; shining the laser over a long enough distance would show a
bright spot surrounded by a ring, rather than just a spot (assuming your
mirrors are that good, anyway).

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Space Navy ideas from '50's
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:21:31 +0100

>The DSBF program would do more
>than insure the US an unassailable nuclear retailatory
>force; it would open up the Solar System for colonization, much
>as the sailing ships of old fulfilled both a military and exploratory
>function. I think I've considered most of the major
>issues of such a force above; now, let's discuss it
>in detail.

I this light (or should I say darkness) developing a huge maser beam by the
army would not be such a bad idea. I assume that possible enemies would
launch similar deepspace missiles and that means we want a weapon against
that again. What would be better then a huge beam? (huge because the aiming
would be difficult).

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: your web page.
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:21:16 +0100

To Kevin,

>I can't seem to find your URL.  An old link of mine says illegal directory.
>http://rugth10.th.rug.nl/~linden

Yes, that's an old link, try:

http://www.cpedu.rug.nl/~N0642983/welcome.html

for my homepage

or

http://www.cpedu.rug.nl/~N0642983/lit/calc.html

for the document I referred to. I don't expect everybody to read it through
carefully, just tell me if everything looks OK.


Regards Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: problems with beaming
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:21:38 +0100

To Lee and Rex,

Thank you for clarifying the hidden peculiarities of a laser. To make sure
that I have understood everything, I will summarize what both of you explained:

There are two effects playing a role:
1. Diffraction (spreading and interference of the beam by a "small" aperture)
2. Non-parallel beam (attenuation because of the inverse square law)

I like to clear a equivocality about my term non-parallel, I do not mean a
divergent beam since I assume not all "lightrays" of the beam will have
their origin into a single point. So I mean that it is a higly directional
beam build of slightly diffuse "lightrays".

Finally I like to ask a few questions, I hope they are not to specialistic:

I assume that smaller and longer lasers will decrease effect 2, can one of
you confirm this?

To solve effect 1 there is no other solution than to increase the aperture.
I only wonder, can a laser be made thicker without much side effects? (Does
it also mean that it should become longer?)

If know a laser needs to be "stimulated" before it can emit (hence the
name), but how is that done? I know that in earlier days they use a flashing
light for a ruby laser, but how is it done today?

I've heard of semi-conductor lasers, do these have an aperture too? (and are
the effects the same as for "normal" lasers?)


Timothy


P.S. to Lee, in your letter you wrote the following formula:
      sin(theta)~theta=1.22*lambda/d
     What does the ~ mean?

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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
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         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re: your web page.
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 96 16:08:33 +0200

> From T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Fri Apr 12 15:23:04 1996
>
> http://www.cpedu.rug.nl/~N0642983/lit/calc.html
> 
> for the document I referred to. I don't expect everybody to read it through
> carefully, just tell me if everything looks OK.
> 
Looks OK (on Netscape). Formulas very readable. 
Good you make GIFs interlaced and added WIDTH/HEIGHT tags - 
it speeds up the loading of a readable document considerably.
A nice joke with the "Yrev Tsaf" name
(I will not disclose it here - 
let the others have something to ponder on too  ;-))

However, the choice for the text color is very bad - 
on this background it is hard to read.
Please change it, say just to plain black, 
possibly leaving color for subheadings.

The text color/background clashes occur also at your other pages.

Regards,

-- Zenon Kulpa

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Space Navy ideas from '50's
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:15:12 -0500

At 3:21 PM 4/12/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>>The DSBF program would do more
>>than insure the US an unassailable nuclear retailatory
>>force; it would open up the Solar System for colonization, much
>>as the sailing ships of old fulfilled both a military and exploratory
>>function. I think I've considered most of the major
>>issues of such a force above; now, let's discuss it
>>in detail.
>
>I this light (or should I say darkness) developing a huge maser beam by the
>army would not be such a bad idea. I assume that possible enemies would
>launch similar deepspace missiles and that means we want a weapon against
>that again. What would be better then a huge beam? (huge because the aiming
>would be difficult).
>
>Timothy

Huge enough for our uses would probably  nnot be nessisary for them, and
certainly they wouldn't loan one to us for a decade or two.  ;)

Oh, how much problem is it to get multiple lasers masers phase locked so
they will work in parralel.  I.E. 10 million little lasers in a grid.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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Subject: Kelly's page
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:19:57 +0100

Hi Kelly,

Well it is my turn, your pages are a bit more extensive, so I may not have
covered everything.

There are a lot of small esthetical flaws, here an extensive survey. (Sorry,
once I started, I couldn't stop).


Several pages end abrupt, adding a horizontal bar or something like that may
keep on from wondering if the document is incomplete.

Several images (at the explorer page) have a blue-rectangle around them (a
link), I wonder if that is necessary. (Maybe for old browsers, I really
don't know) They suggest that clicking on them will reveal more information.

You use a lot of 
formatted-areas, they have the habit to be longer than
the initial width of the window. Maybe decreasing the font (a bit
or breaking the lines more often will keep one from needing to scroll aside.

Your explorer class page has several chapters, you may want to add a table
of contents at the top of the document with links to the top every part.

The Explorer_Hab_Ring.JPG in crewquarters isn't the right size.

While most images have a white background the documents have the original
grey background. Your original explorer class page did have a white one.
Another suggestion would be to make the images transparent

Several tables are over the total width of the window, it doesn't look nice.
Try removing the "WIDTH=100%" part in the TABLE.

The tables in the food-number document are all in PREformatted text, this
makes the tables unnecessary large.

Some tables will look better if they the rows are centered 

The "Overview of all concepts" link in the Explorer class document isn't a
relative but an absolute link.

The "Explorer class starship design" link in Stardrives refers to the
directory instead of the document (works though).

The "Bussards Fusion reactor" in Stardrives doesn't work (can't find the page).

The "internally fueled fusion rockets " in External_fueled is not complete
"\stardrives" instead of "\stardrives.html"

I'm not 100% but the "Vacuum landers" & "Aero landers" link in Manifest
referring to "..\Support_Craft" do not work.

The "Shuttle craft" link refers to the directory instead of the document
(but works also).

Next letter I'll comment about the content, but most seems OK.

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: new web site/status report
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:19:47 +0100

To Kelly,

>>Yes, that's about the case (25.35% to be more exact)
>
>5 times the ships mass in Anti matter and 15 times in matter.  Err.

Or 1.1E13 times the ship mass when you use the best fusion-material you can get.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Thank you for looking at my page and giving several suggestions.

>How on earth do you pronounce "Yrev Tsaf"?  Does that mean anything special?

Try reading it backwards :-)

How you pronounce it, that is hard for me, maybe "I_ref ts_af" (I tried
splitting it up in more familiar parts).

>The fine print with purple charcters is a little hard to read but not a big
>problem.

I'll make them a bit darker.

>Some of the tables would be more helpfull if related to a physcal thing.
>For example where you list fusion energy to specific impluse.  Fusion
>energy is listed in what I think are mass conversion ratios.   (100, 200,
>300, etc.)  Which would be more help full if you had a table showing what
>fusion reactions generate those amounts.  Or more clearly explained the
>table.

OK, I will add these, if I'm right these are at your page.

>This is a big issue to me, since I'm trying to consider things from an
>engineer point.  So I usually need exaust velocity/specific impulse, or
>power in watts per kilo/pound of fuel, or something.

In the formulas for the power the factor M0 is used. Deviding by that will
give you power per kilo. In 2 tables the P[t]/M0 is shown.

>Mentioning which units your using in the equations would be a big help too
>(kilos, gram, mols - watts, ergs, Joules, etc.)

I had never thought of that, I always use SI units, but I will add a note
and use units at some places.

>Some parts I couldn't follow.  For example.
>
>===========================================================
>Results of the calculations:
>
> Mass at time t
>                   : ( 8.1) ( 8.2)
> Power needed at time t
>                   : (14.1) (14.2)
> Total Energy needed
>                   : (12.1) (12.2)
>
>
>Use (xx.1) when condition (3.3) is true, otherwise use (xx.2)
>===============================================================
>
>I have no idea what your saying here.  In general I had a hard time
>following the arangement of the equations and the numbering scheme.

Hmm, I don't understand what isn't clear. The numbers between round braces
refer to an equation. That most formulas come in pairs (xx.1 and xx.2) is
because of condition (3.3). This condition exists because I dump mass that
isn't used (This is often the case with fusion-fuels).

Indeed the numbering of (3) (3.0) (3.1) (3.2) (3.3) is less clear, I will
see what I can do about that. (The reason for that unhandy numbering was
because I added thing later and didn't want to change all numbering)
Further there are three groups of formulas, common formulas (x), formulas
that  look like (xx.1) and formulas that look like (xx.2). The (xx.1) use
(3.1) and the (xx.2) use (3.2).

>I couldn't fiqure out how to work back to the equations.  Possibly going
>through the use of the equations a step at a time or something, might help.

I do not understand where you have troubles with, I tried to make the steps
involved very small. Indeed sometimes the rewriting of a formula may give a
completly new look, but adding extra steps there would make things look more
complicated than they are.
What would you suggest (and where).
(I'm not sure if I understood your question correctly, if not could you
please restate it?)

>I tend to get lost in the equation section.  Which can be frustrating since
>it seems to be covering info I want to get.

I referred to the few formulas you should need in the part: "Results of the
calculations:"

  Mass at time t         : formulas (11.1) and (11.2)
  Power needed at time t : formulas (17.1) and (17.2)
  Total Energy needed    : formulas (15.1) and (15.2)

If you still don't see what you are looking for, please ask me again.


Timothy

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Kelly's page
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:36:38 -0500

At 11:19 PM 4/12/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>Hi Kelly,
>
>Well it is my turn, your pages are a bit more extensive, so I may not have
>covered everything.
>
>There are a lot of small esthetical flaws, here an extensive survey. (Sorry,
>once I started, I couldn't stop).
>
>
>Several pages end abrupt, adding a horizontal bar or something like that may
>keep on from wondering if the document is incomplete.
>
>Several images (at the explorer page) have a blue-rectangle around them (a
>link), I wonder if that is necessary. (Maybe for old browsers, I really
>don't know) They suggest that clicking on them will reveal more information.
>
>You use a lot of 
formatted-areas, they have the habit to be longer than
>the initial width of the window. Maybe decreasing the font (a bit
>or breaking the lines more often will keep one from needing to scroll aside.
>
>Your explorer class page has several chapters, you may want to add a table
>of contents at the top of the document with links to the top every part.
>
>The Explorer_Hab_Ring.JPG in crewquarters isn't the right size.
>
>While most images have a white background the documents have the original
>grey background. Your original explorer class page did have a white one.
>Another suggestion would be to make the images transparent
>
>Several tables are over the total width of the window, it doesn't look nice.
>Try removing the "WIDTH=100%" part in the TABLE.
>
>The tables in the food-number document are all in PREformatted text, this
>makes the tables unnecessary large.
>
>Some tables will look better if they the rows are centered 
>
>The "Overview of all concepts" link in the Explorer class document isn't a
>relative but an absolute link.
>
>The "Explorer class starship design" link in Stardrives refers to the
>directory instead of the document (works though).
>
>The "Bussards Fusion reactor" in Stardrives doesn't work (can't find the page).
>
>The "internally fueled fusion rockets " in External_fueled is not complete
>"\stardrives" instead of "\stardrives.html"
>
>I'm not 100% but the "Vacuum landers" & "Aero landers" link in Manifest
>referring to "..\Support_Craft" do not work.
>
>The "Shuttle craft" link refers to the directory instead of the document
>(but works also).
>
>Next letter I'll comment about the content, but most seems OK.
>
>Timothy


Thanks for the input!  I'll fix it asap.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: new web site/status report
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:58:00 -0500

At 11:19 PM 4/12/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>To Kelly,
>Thank you for looking at my page and giving several suggestions.

No problem.

>>How on earth do you pronounce "Yrev Tsaf"?  Does that mean anything special?
>
>Try reading it backwards :-)

Oh, hell!  I thought it was someone out of Dutch mythology or something.

>>The fine print with purple charcters is a little hard to read but not a big
>>problem.
>
>I'll make them a bit darker.

Also might try using a dark red, blue, or green.  Since those are the
monitors primary colors, they would focus clearer.

>>Some of the tables would be more helpfull if related to a physcal thing.
>>For example where you list fusion energy to specific impluse.  Fusion
>>energy is listed in what I think are mass conversion ratios.   (100, 200,
>>300, etc.)  Which would be more help full if you had a table showing what
>>fusion reactions generate those amounts.  Or more clearly explained the
>>table.
>
>OK, I will add these, if I'm right these are at your page.
>
>>This is a big issue to me, since I'm trying to consider things from an
>>engineer point.  So I usually need exaust velocity/specific impulse, or
>>power in watts per kilo/pound of fuel, or something.
>
>In the formulas for the power the factor M0 is used. Deviding by that will
>give you power per kilo. In 2 tables the P[t]/M0 is shown.

True, but only if you know what the MO is for a given fuel (De, Li6, He3,
p+11B, whatever)


>>Mentioning which units your using in the equations would be a big help too
>>(kilos, gram, mols - watts, ergs, Joules, etc.)
>
>I had never thought of that, I always use SI units, but I will add a note
>and use units at some places.

Yeah you physics types never remember to write in the units.  ;)   Given
that every disapline and sub topic seem to use difernt measurments, it can
cause confusion.

>>Some parts I couldn't follow.  For example.
>>
>>===========================================================
>>Results of the calculations:
>>
>> Mass at time t
>>                   : ( 8.1) ( 8.2)
>> Power needed at time t
>>                   : (14.1) (14.2)
>> Total Energy needed
>>                   : (12.1) (12.2)
>>
>>
>>Use (xx.1) when condition (3.3) is true, otherwise use (xx.2)
>>===============================================================
>>
>>I have no idea what your saying here.  In general I had a hard time
>>following the arangement of the equations and the numbering scheme.
>
>Hmm, I don't understand what isn't clear. The numbers between round braces
>refer to an equation. That most formulas come in pairs (xx.1 and xx.2) is
>because of condition (3.3). This condition exists because I dump mass that
>isn't used (This is often the case with fusion-fuels).
>
>Indeed the numbering of (3) (3.0) (3.1) (3.2) (3.3) is less clear, I will
>see what I can do about that. (The reason for that unhandy numbering was
>because I added thing later and didn't want to change all numbering)
>Further there are three groups of formulas, common formulas (x), formulas
>that  look like (xx.1) and formulas that look like (xx.2). The (xx.1) use
>(3.1) and the (xx.2) use (3.2).
>
>>I couldn't fiqure out how to work back to the equations.  Possibly going
>>through the use of the equations a step at a time or something, might help.
>
>I do not understand where you have troubles with, I tried to make the steps
>involved very small. Indeed sometimes the rewriting of a formula may give a
>completly new look, but adding extra steps there would make things look more
>complicated than they are.
>What would you suggest (and where).
>(I'm not sure if I understood your question correctly, if not could you
>please restate it?)
>
>>I tend to get lost in the equation section.  Which can be frustrating since
>>it seems to be covering info I want to get.
>
>I referred to the few formulas you should need in the part: "Results of the
>calculations:"
>
>  Mass at time t         : formulas (11.1) and (11.2)
>  Power needed at time t : formulas (17.1) and (17.2)
>  Total Energy needed    : formulas (15.1) and (15.2)
>
>If you still don't see what you are looking for, please ask me again.
>
>
>Timothy

Ok, I have to go but I'll try to check it next week.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Fri Apr 12 23:51:56 GMT 1996
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	["506" "Sat" "13" "April" "1996" "01:19:56" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "12" "Re: Space Navy ideas from '50's" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil "Space Navy ideas from '50's" nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Space Navy ideas from '50's
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:19:56 +0100

>Huge enough for our uses would probably  nnot be nessisary for them, and
>certainly they wouldn't loan one to us for a decade or two.  ;)
>
>Oh, how much problem is it to get multiple lasers masers phase locked so
>they will work in parralel.  I.E. 10 million little lasers in a grid.

Building them up would be the smallest problem.
Feeding them requires an extensive power array. (1E18 Watt in 100 square miles)
But the biggest problem will be directing and aligning them. (1E-10 arcseconds?)


Timothy

From popserver Fri Apr 12 23:51:57 GMT 1996
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	["1238" "Sat" "13" "April" "1996" "01:20:02" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "29" "Re: your web page." "^From:" nil nil "4" nil "your web page." nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: your web page.
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:20:02 +0100

You are happily typing a letter, suddenly all the lights around you dim, the
tele flickers but your computer stays on, then everything flashes on again,
but only for a fraction of a second, after that everything is dead and dark
for almost a full second. Your heart misses a beat... and Yes your computer
has resetted too.
What it is? It's a bad main power meltdown and switchover and it happened to
me a minute ago, so after recovering I can start this letter over again.

>Looks OK (on Netscape). Formulas very readable. 
>Good you make GIFs interlaced and added WIDTH/HEIGHT tags - 
>it speeds up the loading of a readable document considerably.

Nice to see that you noticed that (width/height), many don't know (or use) that.

>However, the choice for the text color is very bad - 
>on this background it is hard to read.
>Please change it, say just to plain black, 
>possibly leaving color for subheadings.

I already made it several tints darker. (Not on the Web yet)

>The text color/background clashes occur also at your other pages.

I find this strange, most backgrounds are rather dark while the text-colour
is bright (yellow, light blue). How many colours does you graphics-card
display in your current screenmode?


Timothy

From popserver Fri Apr 12 23:52:18 GMT 1996
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	["1254" "Sat" "13" "April" "1996" "01:45:13" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "37" "Re: new web site/status report" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil "new web site/status report" nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: new web site/status report
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 01:45:13 +0100

To Kelly,

>>>How on earth do you pronounce "Yrev Tsaf"?  Does that mean anything special?
>>
>>Try reading it backwards :-)
>
>Oh, hell!  I thought it was someone out of Dutch mythology or something.

Something like "Flying Dutchman"? :))

>>>The fine print with purple charcters is a little hard to read but not a big
>>>problem.
>>
>>I'll make them a bit darker.
>
>Also might try using a dark red, blue, or green.  Since those are the
>monitors primary colors, they would focus clearer.

Focus, I do not understand? 

>>>This is a big issue to me, since I'm trying to consider things from an
>>>engineer point.  So I usually need exaust velocity/specific impulse, or
>>>power in watts per kilo/pound of fuel, or something.
>>
>>In the formulas for the power the factor M0 is used. Deviding by that will
>>give you power per kilo. In 2 tables the P[t]/M0 is shown.
>
>True, but only if you know what the MO is for a given fuel (De, Li6, He3,
>p+11B, whatever)

No no, you misunderstood. M[0] and M0 (or Mo) are two completely different
things. M0 is the weight of the empty starship (without fuel) while M[0] is
the weight of the starship WITH all fuel.  (M[T] is the weight of the ship
after it has burned all fuel and is thus equal to M0)


Timothy

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	["1146" "Sat" "13" "April" "1996" "18:42:38" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "26" "Re: problems with beaming" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil "problems with beaming" nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: problems with beaming
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 18:42:38 +0100

To Lee,

>Not necessarily, it depends upon what type of laser you are discussing. Two
>types seem to be popular here for two very different reasons. One is a
>simple laser augmented solar sail which is propelled solely by the pressure
>of light. With a properly constructed sail, this can utilize almost ANY
>frequency of radiation, so the easiest way to decrease the aperture would be
>to increase the frequency.

In this case something like far ultra violet or Rontgen waves may decrease
the size of the aperture by a thousandfold (compared to visible light). 
Do you know if there are lasers that can transmit EM-radiation with these
wavelenths?

>I am not sure if phased array can be applied adequately to shorter
>wavelengths or not. I am not aware of any current research in this area. If
>it can, then lasers also become practical. Solar pumped yellow light lasers
>should be relatively cheap and easy to build and conversion efficiencies and
>loss ratios would not be too much of a concern.

Phased lasers are these femto or pico second lasers, right?


Timothy

P.S. could you tell me what the ~ in sin(theta)~theta=1.22*lambda/d means?

From popserver Sat Apr 13 23:05:34 GMT 1996
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	["420" "Sat" "13" "April" "1996" "18:38:27" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "13" "Re: new web site/status report" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil "new web site/status report" nil nil]
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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl
cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: new web site/status report
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 18:38:27 -0400

>I would have lots of comments and remarks,
>and some probably quite agitated -
>do you remember our quarrels, Kelly?  :-(
>However, no time now.
>Be prepared, though - you do not know the day... ;-))
>
>Regards,
>
>-- Zenon Kulpa

Humm.  Assuming there was a comment that I disagreed with so strongly that I
didn't want it in my section.  We could also have a desenting opinon section
for strong contradictory opinons?

From popserver Sun Apr 14 17:17:14 GMT 1996
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: problems with beaming
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 16:48:04 +0100

To Lee,

>>In this case something like far ultra violet or Rontgen waves may decrease
>>the size of the aperture by a thousandfold (compared to visible light). 
>>Do you know if there are lasers that can transmit EM-radiation with these
>>wavelenths?
>
>Yes, we have produced lasing reactions all the way up and into the x-ray bands.

Then that would decrease the problems significantly, the only thing that may
be more difficult is the reflection (I'm not sure which materials can
reflect X-rays well).

Why is it necessary for the beam to be in phase? Does that have to do with
interference in the beam?

>Besides the obvious advantage of not needing to build HUGE single antennas,
>there are other benefits. For instance, a phase array is "steerable". That
>is, the beam can be moved several degrees in any direction without physical
>movement of the antenna itself.

Steering, now I'm really interested, how is that done?

>For instance, Kelly's problem with beam
>"jitter" may be solved by coupling a feedback loop from the starship,
>intelligent prediction software and beam steering on a phased array to
>reduce or remove the problem.

The problem is that the feedback may take upto 10 ly (for deceleration), any
prediction would probably be meaningless.

>Actually it is 2 of these ~ above each other and is normally taken to mean
>"approximate", unfortuneately, there is no way to write this in ASCII unless
>you write ~~ which I believe has a different meaning.

Ah, now it makes sense.


Timothy

From popserver Mon Apr 15 19:34:59 GMT 1996
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	nil)
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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
Cc: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re: your web page.
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 96 18:52:47 +0200

> From T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl Sat Apr 13 01:20:53 1996
> 
> >The text color/background clashes occur also at your other pages.
> 
> I find this strange, most backgrounds are rather dark while the text-colour
> is bright (yellow, light blue). How many colours does you graphics-card
> display in your current screenmode?
> 
256, with additional dithering when needed (on Sun SparcStation).
The backgrounds have strong-contrast patterns
with quite bright small fragments which blur/obscure the letters.

-- Zenon

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	["567" "Tue" "16" "April" "1996" "22:48:03" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "16" "Re: problems with beaming" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil "problems with beaming" nil nil]
	nil)
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: problems with beaming
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 22:48:03 +0100

To Lee,

>>The problem is that the feedback may take upto 10 ly (for deceleration), any
>>prediction would probably be meaningless.
>
>Actually, no. The base course of the ship is known and fairly stable, as for
>feedback, the reflection off of the sail provides a built-in feedback
>mechanism better than anything we could build.

This assumes the starship can keep exact (within 0.5 km deviation) course
all the time, I'm not convinced about that.
If you can make everything work with such a slow feedback, then I think that
you don't even need feedback.


Timothy

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	["1117" "Tue" "16" "April" "1996" "16:08:44" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "34" "Re: problems with beaming" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil "problems with beaming" nil nil]
	nil)
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: problems with beaming
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:08:44 -0500

At 10:48 PM 4/16/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>To Lee,
>
>>>The problem is that the feedback may take upto 10 ly (for deceleration), any
>>>prediction would probably be meaningless.
>>
>>Actually, no. The base course of the ship is known and fairly stable, as for
>>feedback, the reflection off of the sail provides a built-in feedback
>>mechanism better than anything we could build.
>
>This assumes the starship can keep exact (within 0.5 km deviation) course
>all the time, I'm not convinced about that.
>If you can make everything work with such a slow feedback, then I think that
>you don't even need feedback.
>
>
>Timothy

Feed back to who Lee?  Obviously feedback to the transmitters in Sol are
useless given the up to 22 year responce time.  So who is using the
feedback?

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Thu Apr 18 17:44:04 GMT 1996
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	["221" "Thu" "18" "April" "1996" "19:39:11" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "14" "Re: Web docs on space and starflightI" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu
Subject: Re: Web docs on space and starflightI
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 19:39:11 +0100

Hello Brandon,

>Welcome to the group.  Ask, or attack, anything you like.  Hope you like it.

To what address would you like to have sent the SD-letters?

sl0c8@cc.usu.edu

or

neill@foda.math.usu.edu


Regards, Timothy

From popserver Thu Apr 18 17:49:08 GMT 1996
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	["2408" "Thu" "18" "April" "1996" "12:39:09" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "69" "Idiots international" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Idiots international
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 12:39:09 -0500

The following is from the British Sunday Express giving Gongs (medals) for
dubious distinctions.

Tortoise Trophy:

To British Rail, which ingeniously solved the problem of lateness in the
InterCity express train service by redefining "on time" to include trains
arriving within one hour of schedule.

Rubber Cushion:

To John Bloor, who mistook a tube of superglue for his hemorrhoid cream and
glued his buttocks together.

Crimewatch Cup:

Gold star: To Henry Smith, arrested moments after returning home with a
stolen stereo. His error was having tattooed on his forehead in large
capital letters the words "Henry Smith". His lawyer told the court: "My
>client is not a very bright young man."

Silver star:

To Michael Robinson, who rang police to deliver a bomb threat, but became so
agitated about the mounting cost of the call that he began screaming "Call
me back!" and left his phone number.

Bronze star:

To Paul Monkton, who used as his getaway vehicle a van with his name and
phone number painted in foot-high letters on the side.

British Cup:

To the passengers on a jam-packed train from Margate to Victoria, who
averted their eyes while John Henderson and Zoe D'Arcy engaged in oral sex
and then moved onto intercourse ... but complained when the pair lit up
post-coital cigarettes in a non-smoking compartment.

Flying Cross:

To Percy the Pigeon, who flopped down exhausted in a Sheffield loft, having
beaten 1,000 rivals in a 500 mile race, and was immediately  eaten by a cat.
Alas, the 90-minute delay resulting from finding his remains and handing his
ID tag to the judges relegated Percy from first to third place.

Lazarus Laurel:

To Julia Carson, who as her tearful family gathered round her coffin in a
New York funeral parlour, sat bolt upright and asked what the hell was going
on. Celebrations were short-lived, due to the fact that Mrs. Carson's
daughter, Julie, immediately dropped dead from shock.

Silver Bullet:

To poacher Marino Malerba, who shot a stag standing above him on an
overhanging rock -- and was killed instantly when it fell on him.



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Fri Apr 19 18:36:30 GMT 1996
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	["480" "Fri" "19" "April" "1996" "10:30:20" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "19" "Re: Web docs on space and starflightI" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com
Cc: sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, KellySt@aol.com,
        kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
         zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Web docs on space and starflightI
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:30:20 -0500


Our old web site (with back newsletters) is:

http://sunsite.unc.edu/lunar/

The school of starship design is the part yould be most interested in.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Thu Apr 25 04:50:44 GMT 1996
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	["7053" "Wed" "24" "April" "1996" "19:40:58" "-0500" "Chris W. Johnson" "chrisj@mail.utexas.edu" nil "161" "SSRT: SAS Action Alert 4/22/96 (fwd)" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu (Chris W. Johnson) (by way of "L. Parker" )
To: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: SSRT: SAS Action Alert 4/22/96 (fwd)
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 19:40:58 -0500



Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 09:30:54 -0700 (MST)
From: Donald Doughty 
To: DC-X 
Subject: SAS Action Alert 4/22/96 (fwd)


Subject: SAS Action Alert 4/22/96

           Space Access Society Political Action Alert 4/22/96

The full House Science Committee will "mark up" (review and modify) an
omnibus funding bill that includes NASA's FY'97 budget authorization.  The
markup is scheduled for this Wednesday, April 24th.

We ask that you check the attached list of Science Committee members, and
if you live in or near one's district, call or fax his or her office as
soon as possible, by Wednesday morning if possible, and ask them to
_preserve full funding for NASA's X-33 Reusable Launch Vehicle program._

If you don't find anyone nearby on the list, it would be useful to call or
fax the office of George Brown (D CA), ranking Science minority member.

 - Background

Between the "train wreck" and the election coming up, time is tight in the
Congress - there was no separate Space Subcommittee markup; this markup in
the full Science Committee is it for the House version of NASA's FY'97
authorization.  FY'97 begins this October 1st.

The pre-markup version of the bill gives NASA their full request for the
X-33/RLV (Reusable Launch Vehicle) program.  There are significant cuts
from the level requested by the White House in other areas, however - in
particular, Mission To Planet Earth (MTPE) is cut from $1.4 billion to $1
billion.  There is likely to be a strong move to restore the full MTPE
funding at the expense of X-33/RLV.

We need to urgently ask Science Committee members to NOT take money from
X-33/RLV to restore Mission To Planet Earth cuts.

We have nothing against Mission To Planet Earth in principle; more and
better data is in our view always a good thing.  We prefer not to get into
the debate about how well or badly MTPE as currently planned would work.

We believe, however, that significantly reducing the cost of getting to
space ASAP should be NASA's top priority, since it would enable better
returns for money spent across the entire range of NASA's space activities,
MTPE included.

If you call, keep it short and polite - you're likely talking to an
overworked underpaid staffer.  Tell them you're calling about the NASA
X-33/Reusable Launch Vehicle program; they may then switch you over to a
space-specialist staffer, or they may ask you what they can do for you.
Either way, tell them you'd like them to preserve full funding for the
X-33/RLV program, give them a quick reason why - you feel it's important
for the future of the space program to cut access costs will do, if you're
not feeling creative.  If they have any questions, answer them as best you
can; if not, thank them for their time and ring off.

If you fax, keep it short and polite (one page max).  State your main point
right at the start, then if you feel like it give a paragraph or two in
support.  The idea is to make it easy for that same overworked underpaid
staffer - if yours is the only fax they see, it should be concise and
persuasive; if it's the hundredth, they should be able to tell at a glance
what you're asking for and add it to the totals.

Welcome to the FY'97 affordable access budget battles - and thanks in
advance for your help!


             ** House Committee on Science, Members List **

 (Chairman, full Science Committee)    voice          fax
  Walker, Robert S. (R-16 PA)        1-202-225-2411 1-202-225-2484

 (Ranking Minority Member, full Science Committee)
  Brown Jr., George E. (D-42 CA)     1-202-225-6161 1-202-225-8671

 (Chairman, Space Subcommittee)
  Sensenbrenner, F. James (R-09 WI)  1-202-225-5101 1-202-225-3190

 (Ranking Minority Member, Space Subcommittee)
  Hall, Ralph M. (D-04 TX)           1-202-225-6673 1-202-225-3332

       (alphabetical by states)
       * member of Space Subcommittee

                                       voice          fax
 *Cramer, Robert (D-05 AL)           1-202-225-4801 1-202-225-4392

 *Salmon, Matt (R-01 AZ)             1-202-225-2635 1-202-225-2607

 *Calvert, Ken (R-43 CA)             1-202-225-1986 1-202-225-2004
 *Harman, Jane (D-36 CA)             1-202-225-8220 1-202-226-0684
 *Rohrabacher, Dana (R-45 CA)        1-202-225-2415 1-202-225-7067
 *Seastrand, Andrea (R-22 CA)        1-202-225-3601 1-202-226-1015
  Baker, Bill (R-10 CA)              1-202-225-1880 1-202-225-2150
  Lofgren, Zoe (D-16 CA)             1-202-225-3072 1-202-225-9460

 *Foley, Mark (R-16 FL)              1-202-225-5792 1-202-225-1860
 *Weldon, Dave (R-15 FL)             1-202-225-3671 1-202-225-9039
 *Hastings, Alcee (D-23 FL)          1-202-225-1313 1-202-225-0690

  Fawell, Harris W. (R-13 IL)        1-202-225-3515 1-202-225-9420

 *Roemer, Tim (D-03 IN)              1-202-225-3915 1-202-225-6798

 *Tiahrt, Todd (R-04 KS)             1-202-225-6216 1-202-225-5398

 *Ward, Mike (R-03 KY)               1-202-225-5401

  Hayes, James A. (D-07 LA)          1-202-225-2031 1-202-225-1175

  Olver, John W. (D-01 MA)           1-202-225-5335 1-202-226-1224

  Morella, Constance (R-08 MD)       1-202-225-5341 1-202-225-1389
  Bartlett, Roscoe G. (R-06 MD)      1-202-225-2721 1-202-225-2193

 *Barcia, James (D-05 MI)            1-202-225-8171 1-202-225-2168
  Ehlers, Vernon (R-03 MI)           1-202-225-3831 1-202-225-5144
  Rivers, Lynn (D-13 MI)             1-202-225-6261 1-202-225-0489

 *Luther, William (D-06 MN)          1-202-225-2271 1-202-225-9802
  Gutknecht, Gil (R-01 MN)           1-202-225-2472 1-202-225-0051
  Minge, David (D-02 MN)             1-202-225-2331 1-202-226-0836

  McCarthy, Karen (D-05 MO)          1-202-225-4535 1-202-225-5990

  Myrick, Sue (R-09 NC)              1-202-225-1976 1-202-225-8995

  Schiff, Steven H. (R-01 NM)        1-202-225-6316 1-202-225-4975

  Boehlert, Sherwood (R-23 NY)       1-202-225-3665 1-202-225-1891

 *Traficant, James (D-17 OH)         1-202-225-5261 1-202-225-3719

 *Largent, Steve (R-01 OK)           1-202-225-2211 1-202-225-9187

  Weldon, Curt (R-07 PA)             1-202-225-2011 1-202-225-8137
  Doyle, Michael (D-18 PA)           1-202-225-2135 1-202-225-7747
  McHale, Paul (D-15 PA)             1-202-225-6411 1-202-225-5320

  Graham, Lindsey (R-03 SC)          1-202-225-5301 1-202-225-5383

 *Hilleary, Van (R-04 TN)            1-202-225-6831 1-202-225-4520
  Wamp, Zach (R-03 TN)               1-202-225-3271 1-202-225-6974
  Tanner, John S. (D-08 TN)          1-202-225-4714 1-202-225-1765

 *Stockman, Steve (R-09 TX)          1-202-225-6565 1-202-225-1584
 *Lee, Sheila Jackson (D-18 TX)      1-202-225-3816 1-202-225-6186
  Barton, Joseph (R-06 TX)           1-202-225-2002 1-202-225-3052
  Geren, Peter (D-12 TX)             1-202-225-5071 1-202-225-2786
  Johnson, Eddie Bernice (D-30 TX)   1-202-225-8885 1-202-226-1477
  Doggett, Lloyd (D-10 TX)           1-202-225-4865 1-202-225-3018

 *Davis, Tom (R-11 VA)               1-202-225-1492 1-202-225-2274

  Cubin, Barbara (R-WY)              1-202-225-2311 1-202-225-0726



From popserver Thu Apr 25 14:52:32 GMT 1996
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	["240" "Thu" "25" "April" "1996" "08:33:27" "-0500" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "16" "Re: You may be an engineer..." "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
cc: KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
         Mark_Jensen@cpqm.mail.saic.com, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: You may be an engineer...
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 08:33:27 -0500 (CDT)



On Wed, 24 Apr 1996, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:

> >     You may be an engineer...


> >     If you have more friends on the Internet than in real life


Gee, Who do we know like this?   ;)


Kevin

P.S. the answer is "all of us"

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Kevin C Houston 
Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        Mark_Jensen@cpqm.mail.saic.com, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: You may be an engineer...
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 08:48:38 -0500

At 8:33 AM 4/25/96, Kevin C Houston wrote:
>On Wed, 24 Apr 1996, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>
>> >     You may be an engineer...
>
>
>> >     If you have more friends on the Internet than in real life
>
>
>Gee, Who do we know like this?   ;)
>
>
>Kevin
>
>P.S. the answer is "all of us"


Really!

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Fri Apr 26 02:07:51 GMT 1996
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	["108" "Thu" "25" "April" "1996" "21:03:21" "-0500" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" "" "5" "A ship named \"Asimov\" in recent B-5 episode!" "^From:" nil nil "4" nil nil nil nil]
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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: interstellar drive group , DotarSojat@aol.com,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.magec.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: A ship named "Asimov" in recent B-5 episode!
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 21:03:21 -0500 (CDT)

I wonder if it was just a coincidence that the ship that "Arthur" came in 
on was named "Asimov" ?"


Kevin

From popserver Wed May  1 18:43:19 GMT 1996
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	["453" "Wed" "1" "May" "1996" "12:11:05" "-0500" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "17" "Long range scans of T.C. I ;)" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil "Long range scans of T.C. I ;)" nil nil]
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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: interstellar drive group , DotarSojat@aol.com,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        Steve VanDevender ,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Long range scans of T.C. I ;)
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 12:11:05 -0500 (CDT)


The first images from the fly-by recon mission are in 
planet I is definetly a water world, and may have life.

check out 

http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m056/hous0042/taucet.html


Kevin

PS  you must have netscape 2.0 to see it spin.  The animation sequence 
may be useful to show mission plans.

PPS I'm only sending this to show off my web skills.  If we could have 
gotten this much info from a flyby recon mission, we wouldn't be 
sending a human

From popserver Wed May  1 18:43:22 GMT 1996
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	["1679" "Wed" "1" "May" "1996" "12:38:07" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "50" "Re: Long range scans of T.C. I ;)" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil "Long range scans of T.C. I ;)" nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Kevin C Houston 
Cc: interstellar drive group , DotarSojat@aol.com,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, rddesign@wolfenet.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        Steve VanDevender ,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re: Long range scans of T.C. I ;)
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 12:38:07 -0500


At 12:11 PM 5/1/96, Kevin C Houston wrote:
>The first images from the fly-by recon mission are in
>planet I is definetly a water world, and may have life.
>
>check out
>
>http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m056/hous0042/taucet.html
>
>
>Kevin
>
>PS  you must have netscape 2.0 to see it spin.  The animation sequence
>may be useful to show mission plans.
>
>PPS I'm only sending this to show off my web skills.  If we could have
>gotten this much info from a flyby recon mission, we wouldn't be
>sending a human


Looks cool Kevin.  Pity I don't have netscape 2.  I guess with the eternal
winter your geting in minnisota you have time to kill phantasizing about
Tau Ceti.  ;)
Seriously, I'm playing web cutting games too.  I worked up graphical maps
for tables of contents of my docs, but I don't have support software here
to test it, and don't know what Dave has on his machine. (HELLO DAVE, ARE
YOU THERE!!)

Well if nothing else it looks cool.  I'll upload it as probably
non-functional and hope for the best.


AS for the PPS.  Me can get down to photo recon images of Tau C.'s planets
from BIG telescope arrays back here.  If we don't get down and check some
chemistry and high res and disect some stuff, no ones going to spend enough
to send us or a robot.  Note that Tau is withing the range of My Explorer
class anyway.  So what do I care.  ;)

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Thu May  2 04:05:17 GMT 1996
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	["184" "Wed" "1" "May" "1996" "16:50:16" "-0700" "Ric Rddesign Denisse Hedman" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" "<199605012350.QAA16078@wolfe.net>" "10" "TCI" "^From:" nil nil "5" "1996050123:50:16" "TCI" nil nil]
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From: rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric & Denisse Hedman)
To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: TCI
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 16:50:16 -0700 (PDT)

Kevin,
When I try and go to your site it says: FORBIDDEN. Your cliet is not allowed
accaess.


Try this one though. I just made it.

http://www.wolfenet.com/~rddesign/Flasher.htm

Ric

From popserver Thu May  2 22:58:57 GMT 1996
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	["1451" "Wed" "1" "May" "1996" "14:23:42" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" "<199605021223.AA17247@student.utwente.nl>" "37" "To Kevin and Kelly" "^From:" nil nil "5" "1996050113:23:42" "To Kevin and Kelly" nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: To Kevin and Kelly
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 14:23:42 +0100

To Kevin,

>The first images from the fly-by recon mission are in
>planet I is definetly a water world, and may have life.

Nice done, I always thought that cgi-scripts where the only way to produce
inline moving images. I did know that gif-animations existed, but had never
seen one. Now that I started digging in the many imagetools I have, I see
that I even don't have a working GIF-animation player.
Did you find that software "The GIF construction set" on the web? I'm
interested in having that tool too.
I think that MPEG movies will be a bit smaller, but of course they aren't
inline-movies (yet).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

To Kelly,

>Seriously, I'm playing web cutting games too.  I worked up graphical maps
>for tables of contents of my docs, but I don't have support software here
>to test it, and don't know what Dave has on his machine. (HELLO DAVE, ARE
>YOU THERE!!)
>
>Well if nothing else it looks cool.  I'll upload it as probably
>non-functional and hope for the best.

I've a new site, (I can't login to the old one). Unfortunately it is only
750kb large, which means that only 250kb was left after I installed my
complete web-site (including the Calc-page of 250kb).
Anyway, it seems that that site allows image-maps, maybe I can test the
image maps there.

If it's not too large, I can locate the images there for a while, so that
you can link it back to your page.


Timothy

From popserver Thu May  2 22:59:04 GMT 1996
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	["1286" "Thu" "2" "May" "1996" "08:01:40" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" "" "43" "Re: Fwd: TCI" "^From:" nil nil "5" "1996050213:01:40" "Fwd: TCI" nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu
Subject: Re: Fwd: TCI
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 08:01:40 -0500

At 11:42 PM 5/1/96, KellySt@aol.com wrote:
>---------------------
>Forwarded message:
>From:	rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric & Denisse Hedman)
>To:	KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
>zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, David@InterWorld.com,
>bmansur@oc.edu, DotarSojat@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,
>lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
>Date: 96-05-01 19:50:26 EDT
>
>Kevin,
>When I try and go to your site it says: FORBIDDEN. Your cliet is not allowed
>accaess.
>
>
>Try this one though. I just made it.
>
>http://www.wolfenet.com/~rddesign/Flasher.htm
>
>Ric


Nice web page.  Like the info on your old sub.  Weird to hear how after the
first big presure dive all the hull plates warped and bowed in, and an
inside bulkhead has bent 4 inches!

Ah, I take it, it was supposed to do that?  ;)

Oh, at the end you the following are links to other submarime related
pages, but there were no links that I saw.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Thu May  2 22:59:05 GMT 1996
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: Re: To Kevin and Kelly
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 08:06:13 -0500

At 2:23 PM 5/1/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>To Kevin,
>
>>The first images from the fly-by recon mission are in
>>planet I is definetly a water world, and may have life.
>
>Nice done, I always thought that cgi-scripts where the only way to produce
>inline moving images. I did know that gif-animations existed, but had never
>seen one. Now that I started digging in the many imagetools I have, I see
>that I even don't have a working GIF-animation player.
>Did you find that software "The GIF construction set" on the web? I'm
>interested in having that tool too.
>I think that MPEG movies will be a bit smaller, but of course they aren't
>inline-movies (yet).

Humm, I'm going to have to try some of those tricks.


>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>To Kelly,
>
>>Seriously, I'm playing web cutting games too.  I worked up graphical maps
>>for tables of contents of my docs, but I don't have support software here
>>to test it, and don't know what Dave has on his machine. (HELLO DAVE, ARE
>>YOU THERE!!)
>>
>>Well if nothing else it looks cool.  I'll upload it as probably
>>non-functional and hope for the best.
>
>I've a new site, (I can't login to the old one). Unfortunately it is only
>750kb large, which means that only 250kb was left after I installed my
>complete web-site (including the Calc-page of 250kb).
>Anyway, it seems that that site allows image-maps, maybe I can test the
>image maps there.
>
>If it's not too large, I can locate the images there for a while, so that
>you can link it back to your page.
>
>
>Timothy

Dave got back to me yesterday and thinks my Maps should run on his system.
We will see how it goes.  I should have the maps loaded and uploaded in a
couple of days.  Then I'll see if I know what I'm doing.


Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Thu May  2 22:59:16 GMT 1996
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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Ric & Denisse Hedman 
cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, David@InterWorld.com, bmansur@oc.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: Re: TCI
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 08:26:17 -0500 (CDT)



On Wed, 1 May 1996, Ric & Denisse Hedman wrote:

> Kevin,
> When I try and go to your site it says: FORBIDDEN. Your cliet is not allowed
> accaess.

Yeah, I had a little problem with the read/write rights.  it should be 
fixed now.  i also added a page for the netscape-challenged  ;)


> 
> 
> Try this one though. I just made it.
> 
> http://www.wolfenet.com/~rddesign/Flasher.htm
> 

WoW!  impressive.  The background gif takes a while to load (and I'm at 
the University, so I have the fastest access I can possibly have. 

Advice for the background:  reduce the image by 50% or even 25% or 
perhaps switching to a .jpg format would help.

Have Fun.

Kevin

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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Timothy van der Linden 
cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
         neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: Re: To Kevin and Kelly
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 08:39:00 -0500 (CDT)



On Wed, 1 May 1996, Timothy van der Linden wrote:

> To Kevin,
> 
> Nice done, I always thought that cgi-scripts where the only way to produce
> inline moving images. I did know that gif-animations existed, but had never
> seen one. Now that I started digging in the many imagetools I have, I see

One of the disadvantages, is that the older versions of netscape do not 
support this function. (more on that later) the gif construction set
can be found at:

http://www.mindworkshop.com/alchemy/alchemy.html

> that I even don't have a working GIF-animation player.
> Did you find that software "The GIF construction set" on the web? I'm
> interested in having that tool too.
> I think that MPEG movies will be a bit smaller, but of course they aren't
> inline-movies (yet).

The gifcon.exe program _can_ be used as a helper app for your browser, so 
having this program should allow your browser (whatever it is) to see the 
gif 89a extenstions.

To: all
Re: image-maps

What is the best program for creating maps?  and what kind of server 
support do you need?

Kevin

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	["1818" "Thu" "2" "May" "1996" "09:54:38" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" "" "54" "Re: To Kevin and Kelly" "^From:" nil nil "5" "1996050214:54:38" "To Kevin and Kelly" nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Kevin C Houston 
Cc: Timothy van der Linden ,
         KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
         neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: Re: To Kevin and Kelly
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 09:54:38 -0500

At 8:39 AM 5/2/96, Kevin C Houston wrote:
>On Wed, 1 May 1996, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>
>> To Kevin,
>>
>> Nice done, I always thought that cgi-scripts where the only way to produce
>> inline moving images. I did know that gif-animations existed, but had never
>> seen one. Now that I started digging in the many imagetools I have, I see
>
>One of the disadvantages, is that the older versions of netscape do not
>support this function. (more on that later) the gif construction set
>can be found at:
>
>http://www.mindworkshop.com/alchemy/alchemy.html
>
>> that I even don't have a working GIF-animation player.
>> Did you find that software "The GIF construction set" on the web? I'm
>> interested in having that tool too.
>> I think that MPEG movies will be a bit smaller, but of course they aren't
>> inline-movies (yet).
>
>The gifcon.exe program _can_ be used as a helper app for your browser, so
>having this program should allow your browser (whatever it is) to see the
>gif 89a extenstions.
>
>To: all
>Re: image-maps
>
>What is the best program for creating maps?  and what kind of server
>support do you need?
>
>Kevin

I have WebMap, mainly because I can find it free on the web.
    http://www.city.net/cnx/software/webmap.html

The server needs a maps reader program or CGI_, or the server software
itself must support maps.  Since I don't have one, I'm not sure how to set
it up.  Also maps have different formats (I.E. netscape, CERN, or NCSA.).

Hope this helps.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Fri May  3 17:52:44 GMT 1996
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	["1155" "Thu" "2" "May" "1996" "12:50:43" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "34" "image maps" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: image maps
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 12:50:43 +0100

Kelly,

>Dave got back to me yesterday and thinks my Maps should run on his system.
>We will see how it goes.  I should have the maps loaded and uploaded in a
>couple of days.  Then I'll see if I know what I'm doing.

There are two formats for ISMAPS, the CERN and NSCA format, I assume the
system on Dave's computer understands only one of them.

Tim

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

To Kevin,

>What is the best program for creating maps?  and what kind of server 
>support do you need?

Mapedit, A WYSIWYG editor for imagemaps
http://www.boutell.com/mapedit/
it is a Windows program.

How to do imagemaps
http://www2.ncsu.edu/bae/people/faculty/walker/hotlist/imagemap.html
may be helpful as additional information.

You cannot test the imagemaps at home with your browser, but this program
Mapedit has some test functions. You need to get contact with the system
operator to figure out if your server supports imagemaps AND allows you to
use it. It may be that the system is set up in such a way that you don't
need to ask permission to use the imagemap system, but is be different on
every system.

Tim

From popserver Fri May  3 17:52:46 GMT 1996
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: imagemaps
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 12:55:25 +0100

I just read that the new Mapedit program doesn't need server support:

"Are imagemaps hard to make?"

Until recently, they were. Server-side imagemaps required the author to
install them
separately on the server. But with Mapedit 2.23 and the latest web browsers, you
can use client-side imagemaps, which reside in your HTML page and are very easy
to create. Mapedit will also create server-side maps for backwards
compatibility with
old browsers. 


Timothy

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	["881" "Fri" "3" "May" "1996" "07:55:19" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "32" "Re: imagemaps" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: Re: imagemaps
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 07:55:19 -0500

Thanks for the Info Tim!

Kelly


At 12:55 PM 5/2/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>I just read that the new Mapedit program doesn't need server support:
>
>"Are imagemaps hard to make?"
>
>Until recently, they were. Server-side imagemaps required the author to
>install them
>separately on the server. But with Mapedit 2.23 and the latest web
>browsers, you
>can use client-side imagemaps, which reside in your HTML page and are very easy
>to create. Mapedit will also create server-side maps for backwards
>compatibility with
>old browsers.
>
>
>Timothy


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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	["1053" "Fri" "3" "May" "1996" "08:04:57" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "30" "Physic help" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: Physic help
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 08:04:57 -0500

Hi all you physics types.  On my web page describing my explorer class'
fusion reactors.

http://165.254.130.90:80/LIT/InterStellar/project/Explorer_Class/Bussard_Fus
ion_systems.HTML

 I have a table where I list various fusion fuel cycles.  It lists the
resulting energy in Mev.  For those of us who arn't familure with
translating Mev into anything, could someone tell me what the speed of the
resulting particals is?  Given that all the power in those reactions is
contained in the resulting kinetic energy of the particals.  This should be
a simple calculation, and would certainly be a nice addition to the table.
Assuming of course your half of and undergrate physics degree wasn't over
15 years stale!


HELP!  ??

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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	["1720" "Fri" "3" "May" "1996" "09:32:02" "-0400" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "52" "RE: image maps" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: David Levine 
To: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com"
	 ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
         "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" ,
         "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" 
To: "rddesign@wolfenet.com" ,
         "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com" ,
        "DotarSojat@aol.com" ,
         "neill@foda.math.usu.edu" ,
         "101765.2200@compuserve.com" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>,
        "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'" 
Subject: RE: image maps
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 09:32:02 -0400

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.  Contact your
mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a version
that supports MIME.

------ =_NextPart_000_01BB38D3.635A2E50
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Actually, as I mentioned to Kelly, I use IIS, which uses a format different
from NCSA and CERN...
it uses the Microsoft format... great, hm?  They change these things around
for no good reason.
They also don't use common log format.   Sigh.

Client-side image maps are useful, as well.  More efficient and faster, too.
 But not all browsers
support them.

--
David Levine, Application Engineer
InterWorld Technology Ventures, Inc.
david@interworld.com
http://www.interworld.com/staff/david/


>----------
>From:
>	T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl[SMTP:T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwen
>te.nl]
>Sent: 	Thursday, May 02, 1996 7:50 AM
>To: 	David Levine; KellySt@aol.com; kgstar@most.fw.hac.com; stevev@efn.org;
>jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu; zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl;
>hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu; rddesign@wolfenet.com;
>lparker@destin.gulfnet.com; DotarSojat@aol.com; neill@foda.math.usu.edu;
>101765.2200@compuserve.com
>Subject: 	image maps
>
>Kelly,
>
>>Dave got back to me yesterday and thinks my Maps should run on his system.
>>We will see how it goes.  I should have the maps loaded and uploaded in a
>>couple of days.  Then I'll see if I know what I'm doing.
>
>There are two formats for ISMAPS, the CERN and NSCA format, I assume the
>system on Dave's computer understands only one of them.
>
>Tim
>
>

------ =_NextPart_000_01BB38D3.635A2E50--

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: RE: image maps
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 13:35:39 +0100

>Client-side image maps are useful, as well.  More efficient and faster, too.
> But not all browsers
>support them.

Not all browser support tables either, I suppose it will take half a year
before most people have netscape 2 or better. Since it will take a while
before the LIT site will become accessable to the public, I don't think
client-side imagemaps will be a problem.
I think that the IIS format is a bigger problem for us, MAPEDIT doesn't
support that it, and I assume that the Kelly's Mac program to make imagemaps
doesn't either.


Timothy

From popserver Mon May  6 20:38:11 GMT 1996
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	["2308" "Sat" "4" "May" "1996" "11:29:42" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "75" "Re: Physic help" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: Re: Physic help
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 11:29:42 +0100

I yesterday posted this by accident only to Kelly:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

To Kelly,

>Hi all you physics types.  On my web page describing my explorer class'
>fusion reactors.
>
>http://165.254.130.90:80/LIT/InterStellar/project/Explorer_Class/Bussard_Fus
>ion_systems.HTML
>
> I have a table where I list various fusion fuel cycles.  It lists the
>resulting energy in Mev.  For those of us who arn't familure with
>translating Mev into anything, could someone tell me what the speed of the
>resulting particals is?  Given that all the power in those reactions is
>contained in the resulting kinetic energy of the particals.  This should be
>a simple calculation, and would certainly be a nice addition to the table.
>Assuming of course your half of and undergrate physics degree wasn't over
>15 years stale!

I'm a bit amazed you ask this because 2 paragraphs later you explain what an
electron Volt is.
So I assume the problem is in the calculation of the velocities.

I'll assume the velocities are relativistic, to make the formulas usable for
all energies.

Kinetic energy (in Joules) of a particle with mass m (in kg) moving with
velocity v:


               1
        ---------------
                    2      
gamma =            v        gamma >= 1  
         SQRT(1 - ----)
                    2
                   c

       2
K = M c (gamma - 1)   K=kinetic energy


In fact this is all you need, but there is a bit of a problem, namely that
there is more than one particle in each reaction, and that sometimes not all
particles have the same mass. This makes that not all particles have the
same final speed, ofcourse one could figure out a mean velocity, but I'm not
sure how to do that best.

If I would do a very rough approximation, I would use the Watts/kg numbers
in your table (by the way it should be Joule/kg).

Since then the velocities wouldn't be relativistic at all I can simply use:

E = 0.5 m v^2

or

v = SQRT[2 E/m]

For 2.058E14 Joule/kg this would give 2E7 m/s or 0.067c


Oh to make the thing complete here the translation from eV to joule:

1 eV = 1.6E-19 Joule

Note that eV is a measure for energy and that in particle physics the mass
of a particle is often given in eV also (this according to E=mc^2).


Timothy



From popserver Mon May  6 20:38:55 GMT 1996
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	["1319" "Sun" "5" "May" "1996" "12:13:37" "-0400" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "41" "RE: image maps" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BB3A7C.4B884C80"
From: David Levine 
To: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com"
	 ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
         "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" ,
         "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" 
To: "rddesign@wolfenet.com" ,
         "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com" ,
        "DotarSojat@aol.com" ,
         "neill@foda.math.usu.edu" ,
         "101765.2200@compuserve.com" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>,
        "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'" 
Subject: RE: image maps
Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 12:13:37 -0400

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.  Contact your
mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a version
that supports MIME.

------ =_NextPart_000_01BB3A7C.4B884C80
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I agree.  Besides the fact that client-side are also easier to maintain...
in the same
HTML file, and all...

--
David Levine, Application Engineer
InterWorld Technology Ventures, Inc.
david@interworld.com
http://www.interworld.com/staff/david/


>----------
>From:
>	T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl[SMTP:T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwen
>te.nl]
>
>>Client-side image maps are useful, as well.  More efficient and faster,
>too.
>> But not all browsers
>>support them.
>
>Not all browser support tables either, I suppose it will take half a year
>before most people have netscape 2 or better. Since it will take a while
>before the LIT site will become accessable to the public, I don't think
>client-side imagemaps will be a problem.
>I think that the IIS format is a bigger problem for us, MAPEDIT doesn't
>support that it, and I assume that the Kelly's Mac program to make
>imagemaps
>doesn't either.
>

------ =_NextPart_000_01BB3A7C.4B884C80--

From popserver Mon May  6 20:41:43 GMT 1996
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	["2464" "Sun" "5" "May" "1996" "16:28:42" "-0400" "DotarSojat@aol.com" "DotarSojat@aol.com" nil "60" "Re: Physic help" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil]
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From: DotarSojat@aol.com
To: KellySt@aol.com
cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Physic help
Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 16:28:42 -0400

On 5/3/96 at 9:07 am EDT, Kelly Starks wrote-

>I have a table where I list various fusion fuel cycles.  It
>lists the resulting energy in Mev.  For those of us who arn't
>familure with translating Mev into anything, could someone
>tell me what the speed of the resulting particals is?

Yes, but I don't know what you can do with the answer.

First of all, you have to coax two charged particles to penetrate
each other's Coulomb barriers with some amount of accelerator
(bombardment) energy, a few MeV, before there can be a nuclear
reaction (or use very high temperature and pressure to cause a
thermonuclear reaction).  This bombardment energy conveys a
motion to the center of mass of the reacting particles which must
be added vectorially to the velocity (which is in a random direc-
tion) of each resulting particle with respect to their center of
mass after the reaction.  We ignore this center-of-mass motion in
the following analysis.

Let's define the following quantities-
     m = mass of lighter reaction product, in atomic mass units
         (e.g., mass of proton = 1.00813 amu)
     M = mass of heavier reaction product, in amu
     E = "resulting energy" in MeV of reaction products (this is
          with respect to their center of mass)
        = [(m1 + M1) - (m2 + M2)] 931 MeV
          (where 1 designates particles before the reaction and
           2 designates particles after the reaction; for a mass
           of 1.00000 amu, mc^2 = 931 MeV)
     v = velocity of the lighter reaction product with respect to
         the center of mass
     V = velocity of the heavier reaction product with respect to
         the center of mass
     
After the reaction, the momentums of the two particles are equal
and opposite (and in a random direction), and the sum of the kin-
etic energies of the particles is equal to "the resulting energy,"
i.e.,
    m v = M V
  0.5 m v^2 + 0.5 M V^2 = E
  0.5 m v^2 + 0.5 M (m v/M)^2 = E
  0.5 m v^2 [1 + (m/M)] = E
   (v/c)^2 = 2[E/(931 MeV)]M/[m(M + m)]

So, the velocity of the lighter particle, in units of c, is
    v/c = sqrt(2[E/(931 MeV)]M/[m(M + m)])

and the velocity of the heavier particle, in units of c, is
    V/c = (m/M)v/c 
        = sqrt(2[E/(931 MeV)]m/[M(M + m)])
       
I hope this answers your question.

(The velocity calculations can be made simpler without great loss
of accuracy by considering only whole numbers of amu, e.g., 1 in-
stead of 1.00813 for a proton.)

Regards, Rex


From popserver Mon May  6 20:41:50 GMT 1996
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	["499" "Sun" "5" "May" "1996" "00:35:22" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "16" "A new old memeber" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: A new old memeber
Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 00:35:22 +0100

Hi all,

A few weeks ago, an old web-friend Emailed me. Some of the older LIT members
may still remember his name: Nick Tosh.

He has been off-line for a long time (6 months) and likes to join the
SD-group again. His connection is still not completely up and running, so I
will do the initial correspondence for him and ask everybody to please add
his address to the Cc-list:

101765.2200@compuserve.com  (Nick Tosh)

I assume he will introduce himself to the group when possible.


Thanks, Timothy

From popserver Mon May  6 20:42:57 GMT 1996
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	["189" "Mon" "6" "May" "1996" "00:23:28" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "9" "Re: A new old memeber" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil]
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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
cc: MLEN3097@mercury.gc.peachnet.edu
Subject: Re: A new old memeber
Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 00:23:28 -0400

Must be something in the air.  Mike Leneski, whos been off line and out of
contact for a while, just asked to be added to the list.  

Odd timing?

MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU


Kelly

From popserver Mon May  6 20:43:31 GMT 1996
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	["770" "Mon" "6" "May" "1996" "03:02:30" "-0500" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "25" "Re: A new old memeber! :)" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil]
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Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Timothy van der Linden 
cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@EFN.ORG,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
         neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@CompuServe.COM
Subject: Re: A new old memeber! :)
Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 03:02:30 -0500 (CDT)



On Sun, 5 May 1996, Timothy van der Linden wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> A few weeks ago, an old web-friend Emailed me. Some of the older LIT 
members > may still remember his name: Nick Tosh.
> 
> 101765.2200@compuserve.com  (Nick Tosh)
> 
> I assume he will introduce himself to the group when possible.

Heya Nick!

How are you doing.  Things sure got busy around here when after you left.
I given some serious thought to your idea of a lighter return craft.  I 
think it's a good idea.  Tim's worked out the math for a MARS-type mission.
although the only way so far to build the return trip's solar collectors 
and maser array inside of ten years, is to assume some sort of self- 
replicating robot.  Anyway, Glad to see you're re-connected. 

Take care

Kevin Houston.

From popserver Mon May  6 20:44:24 GMT 1996
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Physic help
Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 08:40:22 -0500

At 11:29 AM 5/4/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>I yesterday posted this by accident only to Kelly:
>
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>To Kelly,
>
>>Hi all you physics types.  On my web page describing my explorer class'
>>fusion reactors.
>>
>>http://165.254.130.90:80/LIT/InterStellar/project/Explorer_Class/Bussard_Fus
>>ion_systems.HTML
>>
>> I have a table where I list various fusion fuel cycles.  It lists the
>>resulting energy in Mev.  For those of us who arn't familure with
>>translating Mev into anything, could someone tell me what the speed of the
>>resulting particals is?  Given that all the power in those reactions is
>>contained in the resulting kinetic energy of the particals.  This should be
>>a simple calculation, and would certainly be a nice addition to the table.
>>Assuming of course your half of and undergrate physics degree wasn't over
>>15 years stale!
>
>I'm a bit amazed you ask this because 2 paragraphs later you explain what an
>electron Volt is.
>So I assume the problem is in the calculation of the velocities.

A definition is one thing, knowing how to plug real numbers into an
equation is another.

>I'll assume the velocities are relativistic, to make the formulas usable for
>all energies.
>
>Kinetic energy (in Joules) of a particle with mass m (in kg) moving with
>velocity v:
>
>
>               1
>        ---------------
>                    2
>gamma =            v        gamma >= 1
>         SQRT(1 - ----)
>                    2
>                   c
>
>       2
>K = M c (gamma - 1)   K=kinetic energy
>
>
>In fact this is all you need, but there is a bit of a problem, namely that
>there is more than one particle in each reaction, and that sometimes not all
>particles have the same mass. This makes that not all particles have the
>same final speed, ofcourse one could figure out a mean velocity, but I'm not
>sure how to do that best.

In the case of Li6 the resulting exaust is all 4He?  3 per 20 MeV.

>If I would do a very rough approximation, I would use the Watts/kg numbers
>in your table (by the way it should be Joule/kg).
>
>Since then the velocities wouldn't be relativistic at all I can simply use:
>
>E = 0.5 m v^2
>
>or
>
>v = SQRT[2 E/m]

For example is E energy in Joules, watts, voltage...?  Is m in kilos,
proton mass, atomic weight?  Without this the equation isn't useable to me.
In physics as I remember only a few standard units are used.  In
Engineering anything is used.


>For 2.058E14 Joule/kg this would give 2E7 m/s or 0.067c

What are you using for mass?  Are you assuming a 4He and 2 p, or assuming
that the energy of the p's are transfered to the next reaction that are
involved in?  Or assumed the energy is lost?

>
>Oh to make the thing complete here the translation from eV to joule:
>
>1 eV = 1.6E-19 Joule
>
>Note that eV is a measure for energy and that in particle physics the mass
>of a particle is often given in eV also (this according to E=mc^2).
>
>
>Timothy

Damn, this is bad 2e7 would translate to a specific impulse of 2,000,000.
Which would mean the explorer class would need a fuel to weight ratio of
148 to 1 to get down from .3 c.  And given that you used 2.058E14, which is
the result for He3 not Li6, and Li6 reactions divide 1.596 E14 over about
twice as much mass, then a Li6 fueled ship would have a much lower specific
impulse.  I.E. the Explorer class couldn't work!!

Yeah I roughed out a calculation (I'm still not comfortable that I'm
following your math.) and get a specific impluse of about 1,600,000.  Which
would demand hundreds of times the ships weight in fuel!!!!

AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: DotarSojat@aol.com
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, neill@foda.math.usu.edu,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Physic help
Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 08:51:29 -0500

At 4:28 PM 5/5/96, DotarSojat@aol.com wrote:
>On 5/3/96 at 9:07 am EDT, Kelly Starks wrote-
>
>>I have a table where I list various fusion fuel cycles.  It
>>lists the resulting energy in Mev.  For those of us who arn't
>>familure with translating Mev into anything, could someone
>>tell me what the speed of the resulting particals is?
>
>Yes, but I don't know what you can do with the answer.
>
>First of all, you have to coax two charged particles to penetrate
>each other's Coulomb barriers with some amount of accelerator
>(bombardment) energy, a few MeV, before there can be a nuclear
>reaction (or use very high temperature and pressure to cause a
>thermonuclear reaction).  This bombardment energy conveys a
>motion to the center of mass of the reacting particles which must
>be added vectorially to the velocity (which is in a random direc-
>tion) of each resulting particle with respect to their center of
>mass after the reaction.  We ignore this center-of-mass motion in
>the following analysis.
>
>Let's define the following quantities-
>     m = mass of lighter reaction product, in atomic mass units
>         (e.g., mass of proton = 1.00813 amu)
>     M = mass of heavier reaction product, in amu
>     E = "resulting energy" in MeV of reaction products (this is
>          with respect to their center of mass)
>        = [(m1 + M1) - (m2 + M2)] 931 MeV
>          (where 1 designates particles before the reaction and
>           2 designates particles after the reaction; for a mass
>           of 1.00000 amu, mc^2 = 931 MeV)
>     v = velocity of the lighter reaction product with respect to
>         the center of mass
>     V = velocity of the heavier reaction product with respect to
>         the center of mass
>
>After the reaction, the momentums of the two particles are equal
>and opposite (and in a random direction), and the sum of the kin-
>etic energies of the particles is equal to "the resulting energy,"
>i.e.,
>    m v = M V
>  0.5 m v^2 + 0.5 M V^2 = E
>  0.5 m v^2 + 0.5 M (m v/M)^2 = E
>  0.5 m v^2 [1 + (m/M)] = E
>   (v/c)^2 = 2[E/(931 MeV)]M/[m(M + m)]
>
>So, the velocity of the lighter particle, in units of c, is
>    v/c = sqrt(2[E/(931 MeV)]M/[m(M + m)])
>
>and the velocity of the heavier particle, in units of c, is
>    V/c = (m/M)v/c
>        = sqrt(2[E/(931 MeV)]m/[M(M + m)])
>
>I hope this answers your question.
>
>(The velocity calculations can be made simpler without great loss
>of accuracy by considering only whole numbers of amu, e.g., 1 in-
>stead of 1.00813 for a proton.)
>
>Regards, Rex


???

Hum, I'll have to try going through that step by step with some real data.

Unfortunately given the numbers from Tim's responce, and assuming no
losses, it looks like we can't get even close to the specific impluse I was
assuming.  (I feel like an air head.)  I had thought the numbers seemed
higher than the articals I was reading seemed to imply.  But I was assured
by someone (one of the physics students) in the group that I could assume
the higher vecocities/spec impluse.  Obviously with the lower numbers, the
ship isn't usable even for a flight to Alpha Centauri.

I am bumbed!  I feel like whiping the explorer class files of the Daves
proto-LIT server.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: Re: A new old memeber
Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 08:55:54 -0500

At 12:35 AM 5/5/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>A few weeks ago, an old web-friend Emailed me. Some of the older LIT members
>may still remember his name: Nick Tosh.
>
>He has been off-line for a long time (6 months) and likes to join the
>SD-group again. His connection is still not completely up and running, so I
>will do the initial correspondence for him and ask everybody to please add
>his address to the Cc-list:
>
>101765.2200@compuserve.com  (Nick Tosh)
>
>I assume he will introduce himself to the group when possible.
>
>
>Thanks, Timothy

Say hi to Nick for me.

Oh, I just noticed that we are not all using the same list of E-mail
addresses.  A couple of the new ones are not being used all the time.  Lets
all correct are lists.

Kelly

P.S.
Who's neill@foda.math.usu.edu ?


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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	["4093" "Tue" "7" "May" "1996" "00:02:03" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "102" "Re: Physic help" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Physic help
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 00:02:03 +0100

>>       2
>>K = M c (gamma - 1)   K=kinetic energy
>>
>>
>>In fact this is all you need, but there is a bit of a problem, namely that
>>there is more than one particle in each reaction, and that sometimes not all
>>particles have the same mass. This makes that not all particles have the
>>same final speed, ofcourse one could figure out a mean velocity, but I'm not
>>sure how to do that best.
>
>In the case of Li6 the resulting exaust is all 4He?  3 per 20 MeV.

Yes, but that still means that the momentum and energy are not necessary
equally distributed. Rex has given a 2 particle calculation but I wonder if
that makes much sense, since all energy/momentum is finally directed in one
direction namely backwards.

>>If I would do a very rough approximation, I would use the Watts/kg numbers
>>in your table (by the way it should be Joule/kg).
>>
>>Since then the velocities wouldn't be relativistic at all I can simply use:
>>
>>E = 0.5 m v^2
>>
>>or
>>
>>v = SQRT[2 E/m]
>
>For example is E energy in Joules, watts, voltage...?  Is m in kilos,
>proton mass, atomic weight?  Without this the equation isn't useable to me.
>In physics as I remember only a few standard units are used.  In
>Engineering anything is used.

Yes, forgot that again, maybe subconsiously assuming that the formula looked
familiar.

E=energy (Joules)
m=mass of all the particles left over after the reaction (kg)
v=mean velocity of the particles (m/s)

What isn't mentioned in your fusion reactions is that within the engine
probably many photons are generated too. You should see these photons just
as a form of energy and not as an ingredient of the reaction.

>>For 2.058E14 Joule/kg this would give 2E7 m/s or 0.067c
>
>What are you using for mass?  Are you assuming a 4He and 2 p, or assuming
>that the energy of the p's are transfered to the next reaction that are
>involved in?  Or assumed the energy is lost?

Since I was talking about mean values, I wasn't thinking about particles
anymore, it was enough to just talk about energy per amount of fuelmass.
So for the mass I simply used 1 kg since it is 2.058E14J per 1 kg. I could
also have used 2 kg because it is 4.116E14J per 2 kg. I hope If I'm childish
here, forgive me.

So when using v = SQRT[2 E/m], forget about electron volts, atomic mass etc.
just use the energy-per-mass number in your table.

If you like to know how those energy-per-mass (J/kg) numbers were calculated
give a yell and I will show it to you. (Then I will need eV and amu again)

>Damn, this is bad 2e7 would translate to a specific impulse of 2,000,000.
>Which would mean the explorer class would need a fuel to weight ratio of
>148 to 1 to get down from .3 c.

I get something around 100:1 but I guess that doesn't matter much anymore.

>And given that you used 2.058E14, which is
>the result for He3 not Li6, and Li6 reactions divide 1.596 E14 over about
>twice as much mass, then a Li6 fueled ship would have a much lower specific
>impulse.  I.E. the Explorer class couldn't work!!

Didn't I show this a while ago? It shows the fuel to ship ratios.

                          End velocity -->
          +------+-------+-------+------+-------+--------+
          | 0.20 |  0.30 |  0.40 | 0.50 |  0.60 |  0.70  |
    +-----+------+-------+-------+------+-------+--------+
  f | 200 |  7.6 |  22.2 |  69.5 |  244 |  1032 |   5906 |
    | 250 |  9.7 |  31.9 | 114.6 |  467 |  2338 |  16422 |
 || | 300 | 12.0 |  44.4 | 180.0 |  839 |  4896 |  41401 |
 || | 350 | 14.6 |  60.2 | 272.7 | 1439 |  9662 |  96907 |
 || | 400 | 17.6 |  79.8 | 401.4 | 2376 | 18191 | 213876 |
 \/ | 450 | 21.0 | 104.1 | 577.2 | 3805 | 32958 | 449882 |
    | 500 | 24.7 | 133.8 | 813.9 | 5941 | 57820 | 908988 |
    +-----+------+-------+-------+------+-------+--------+

Where f is  c^2 / 2.058E14 = 439        (c=3E8 m/s)

Our best reaction is 2H + 3He --> 4He +1H + 18.3 MeV
with 3.51E14 J/kg so that f=257

>AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

That's why I tried pushing anti-matter as a fuel.

Tim


P.S. Don't remove the explorer pages, it makes a good example why not to use
fusion fuel. (just kidding)

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Mailinglist
Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 00:02:11 +0100

>Oh, I just noticed that we are not all using the same list of E-mail
>addresses.  A couple of the new ones are not being used all the time.  Lets
>all correct are lists.
>
>Kelly
>
>P.S.
>Who's neill@foda.math.usu.edu ?

I thought you introduced Brandon Neill two months ago, maybe you use his
other Email: sl0c8@cc.usu.edu

The list I'm using is:

KellySt@aol.com (Kelly Starks)
kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks)
stevev@efn.org (Steve vanDevender)
jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu (Jim)
zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Kevin Houston)
rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric Hedman) hedmarc@cellpro.cellpro.com
David@InterWorld.com (David Levine)
lparker@destin.gulfnet.com (Lee Parker)
bmansur@oc.edu (Brian Mansur)
DotarSojat@aol.com (Rex Finke)
neill@foda.math.usu.edu (Brandon Neill) sl0c8@cc.usu.edu
101765.2200@compuserve.com (Nick Tosh)
MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU (Mike Leneski)
T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)

So that makes 14 members (kelly two times)

Timothy

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	["1755" "Tue" "7" "May" "1996" "02:50:39" "-0500" "Kevin C. Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "44" "Insult to Injury" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil]
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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: interstellar drive group <101765.2200@compuserve.com>,
        David@InterWorld.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com,
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Subject: Insult to Injury
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 02:50:39 -0500 (CDT)

First, a possible solution to Kelly's dilemma:

Why not launch a fuel tank ahead of the explorer.  This would be an automated 
drone that would carry the decell fuel.  This could be launched using an 
ion beam/mag sail combination.  Since there would be no crew to worry 
about, acceleration could be several G's without difficulty. 
assuming a .3C cruise speed, the drone gets pushed to .29C, and rendevous 
takes place at the halfway point. The tanker is launched only a few 
months ahead of the explorer, so the ship should be able to "see" their 
tanker at all times.  since we are adding an ion cannon (instead of a 
fuel launcher or a maser array) the explorer could use that system to get 
up to some speed, further saving on accel fuel.

Also, maybe some form of charged-wire magnetic brake would help here, I 
know we dismissed these for near light-speed ships, but perhaps at .3C 
the explorer could benefit from it.



Not to kick a man when he's down, but I heard a funny joke that 
I can twist to fit the occasion: 

Three sub-warp ships pull into Deep-space Nine at the same time.
An anti-matter Rocket, a MARS, and a Fusion rocket.

all three captains go into Quark's bar and order drinks.

The captain of the Anti-matter Rocket says "give me a R.A."
Quark smiles and says "One Romulan Ale, coming up"

The captain of the MARS says "give me a S.B."
Again Quark smiles and says "One Saurian Brandy coming up"

The captain of the Fusion Rocket says "give me a Fifteen"
Quark frowns and says "fifteen? Whats a fifteen?"
the captain says "Seven and Seven, What else?"


Kevin  
(who knows what it feels like to be slapped in the face by the cold hand 
of reality)

PS Don't give up so easily Kelly, There may yet be a way around your 
problem.

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Physic help
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 07:47:50 -0500

At 12:02 AM 5/7/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>>>       2
>>>K = M c (gamma - 1)   K=kinetic energy
>>>
>>>
>>>In fact this is all you need, but there is a bit of a problem, namely that
>>>there is more than one particle in each reaction, and that sometimes not all
>>>particles have the same mass. This makes that not all particles have the
>>>same final speed, ofcourse one could figure out a mean velocity, but I'm not
>>>sure how to do that best.
>>
>>In the case of Li6 the resulting exaust is all 4He?  3 per 20 MeV.
>
>Yes, but that still means that the momentum and energy are not necessary
>equally distributed. Rex has given a 2 particle calculation but I wonder if
>that makes much sense, since all energy/momentum is finally directed in one
>direction namely backwards.

I guess it would even out in the plasma.  Collisions and such.

>>>If I would do a very rough approximation, I would use the Watts/kg numbers
>>>in your table (by the way it should be Joule/kg).
>>>
>>>Since then the velocities wouldn't be relativistic at all I can simply use:
>>>
>>>E = 0.5 m v^2
>>>
>>>or
>>>
>>>v = SQRT[2 E/m]
>>
>>For example is E energy in Joules, watts, voltage...?  Is m in kilos,
>>proton mass, atomic weight?  Without this the equation isn't useable to me.
>>In physics as I remember only a few standard units are used.  In
>>Engineering anything is used.
>
>Yes, forgot that again, maybe subconsiously assuming that the formula looked
>familiar.
>
>E=energy (Joules)
>m=mass of all the particles left over after the reaction (kg)
>v=mean velocity of the particles (m/s)

Thank you.

>What isn't mentioned in your fusion reactions is that within the engine
>probably many photons are generated too. You should see these photons just
>as a form of energy and not as an ingredient of the reaction.

Supposedly not.  Thats why the reactions have virtually no radiation, and
virtually all the energy can be converted to electricity.

>>>For 2.058E14 Joule/kg this would give 2E7 m/s or 0.067c
>>
>>What are you using for mass?  Are you assuming a 4He and 2 p, or assuming
>>that the energy of the p's are transfered to the next reaction that are
>>involved in?  Or assumed the energy is lost?
>
>Since I was talking about mean values, I wasn't thinking about particles
>anymore, it was enough to just talk about energy per amount of fuelmass.
>So for the mass I simply used 1 kg since it is 2.058E14J per 1 kg. I could
>also have used 2 kg because it is 4.116E14J per 2 kg. I hope If I'm childish
>here, forgive me.

Sorry, I should have caught that one.

>So when using v = SQRT[2 E/m], forget about electron volts, atomic mass etc.
>just use the energy-per-mass number in your table.
>
>If you like to know how those energy-per-mass (J/kg) numbers were calculated
>give a yell and I will show it to you. (Then I will need eV and amu again)
>
>>Damn, this is bad 2e7 would translate to a specific impulse of 2,000,000.
>>Which would mean the explorer class would need a fuel to weight ratio of
>>148 to 1 to get down from .3 c.
>
>I get something around 100:1 but I guess that doesn't matter much anymore.
>
>>And given that you used 2.058E14, which is
>>the result for He3 not Li6, and Li6 reactions divide 1.596 E14 over about
>>twice as much mass, then a Li6 fueled ship would have a much lower specific
>>impulse.  I.E. the Explorer class couldn't work!!
>
>Didn't I show this a while ago? It shows the fuel to ship ratios.
>
>                          End velocity -->
>          +------+-------+-------+------+-------+--------+
>          | 0.20 |  0.30 |  0.40 | 0.50 |  0.60 |  0.70  |
>    +-----+------+-------+-------+------+-------+--------+
>  f | 200 |  7.6 |  22.2 |  69.5 |  244 |  1032 |   5906 |
>    | 250 |  9.7 |  31.9 | 114.6 |  467 |  2338 |  16422 |
> || | 300 | 12.0 |  44.4 | 180.0 |  839 |  4896 |  41401 |
> || | 350 | 14.6 |  60.2 | 272.7 | 1439 |  9662 |  96907 |
> || | 400 | 17.6 |  79.8 | 401.4 | 2376 | 18191 | 213876 |
> \/ | 450 | 21.0 | 104.1 | 577.2 | 3805 | 32958 | 449882 |
>    | 500 | 24.7 | 133.8 | 813.9 | 5941 | 57820 | 908988 |
>    +-----+------+-------+-------+------+-------+--------+
>
>Where f is  c^2 / 2.058E14 = 439        (c=3E8 m/s)

Having no idea how to tie F to acctual fuels.  This didn't help much.

>Our best reaction is 2H + 3He --> 4He +1H + 18.3 MeV
>with 3.51E14 J/kg so that f=257

???  That would give you a fuel mass ration of under 40 acording to your
 table.

>>AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
>
>That's why I tried pushing anti-matter as a fuel.

Good power to weight ratio, but unproducable or handelable in the
quantities and weigh ratios we need.

>Tim
>
>
>P.S. Don't remove the explorer pages, it makes a good example why not to use
>fusion fuel. (just kidding)


eeeeEEEERRRRR!!!!


Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Mailinglist
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 07:54:32 -0500

At 12:02 AM 5/7/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>>Oh, I just noticed that we are not all using the same list of E-mail
>>addresses.  A couple of the new ones are not being used all the time.  Lets
>>all correct are lists.
>>
>>Kelly
>>
>>P.S.
>>Who's neill@foda.math.usu.edu ?
>
>I thought you introduced Brandon Neill two months ago, maybe you use his
>other Email: sl0c8@cc.usu.edu

Opps, your right I'ld forgotten about the secound address.

>The list I'm using is:
>
>KellySt@aol.com (Kelly Starks)
>kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks)
>stevev@efn.org (Steve vanDevender)
>jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu (Jim)
>zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
>hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Kevin Houston)
>rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric Hedman) hedmarc@cellpro.cellpro.com
>David@InterWorld.com (David Levine)
>lparker@destin.gulfnet.com (Lee Parker)
>bmansur@oc.edu (Brian Mansur)
>DotarSojat@aol.com (Rex Finke)
>neill@foda.math.usu.edu (Brandon Neill) sl0c8@cc.usu.edu
>101765.2200@compuserve.com (Nick Tosh)
>MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU (Mike Leneski)
>T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
>
>So that makes 14 members (kelly two times)
>
>Timothy

Ok,
Isn't Brian Mansur (bmansur@oc.edu) off line?  I was geting delivery errors
about the time he droped out and thought he lost his account.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Kevin C Houston 
Cc: interstellar drive group <101765.2200@compuserve.com>,
        David@InterWorld.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com,
        mlen3097@mercury.gc.peachnet.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         sl0c8@CC.USU.EDU, Steve VanDevender ,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re: Insult to Injury
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 08:03:29 -0500

At 2:50 AM 5/7/96, Kevin C Houston wrote:
>First, a possible solution to Kelly's dilemma:
>
>Why not launch a fuel tank ahead of the explorer.  This would be an automated
>drone that would carry the decell fuel.  This could be launched using an
>ion beam/mag sail combination.  Since there would be no crew to worry
>about, acceleration could be several G's without difficulty.
>assuming a .3C cruise speed, the drone gets pushed to .29C, and rendevous
>takes place at the halfway point. The tanker is launched only a few
>months ahead of the explorer, so the ship should be able to "see" their
>tanker at all times.  since we are adding an ion cannon (instead of a
>fuel launcher or a maser array) the explorer could use that system to get
>up to some speed, further saving on accel fuel.

With my fuel launcher idea I was accelerating the ship without using any
onboard fuel.  I need the 2,500,00 spec impuse so the ship could carry
enough braking fuel to stop from .3c.

>Also, maybe some form of charged-wire magnetic brake would help here, I
>know we dismissed these for near light-speed ships, but perhaps at .3C
>the explorer could benefit from it.

Some kind of drag chut would be nice, if their was anything to drag against.

AAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

>Kevin
>(who knows what it feels like to be slapped in the face by the cold hand
>of reality)

Yeah, we've all managed to chew up and spit out most all the ideas we've
come up with, and yes  I rtemember you realizing that the MARS drag motor
could overcome the microwave thrust from the rectenna.

>PS Don't give up so easily Kelly, There may yet be a way around your
>problem.

I suppose on the bright side were not doing much worse than others.  Maklov
(sp) who wrote the starflight handbook was in a artical in Final Frounteir
magazine where he figured we launch thousand year solar sail ships to the
local starsystem in the next century.  (Only if we all go retarded!)

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Tue May  7 22:23:44 GMT 1996
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	["373" "Wed" "8" "May" "1996" "00:20:21" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "8" "Re: Mailinglist" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Mailinglist
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 00:20:21 +0100

>Isn't Brian Mansur (bmansur@oc.edu) off line?  I was geting delivery errors
>about the time he droped out and thought he lost his account.

Yes, you are right, I have two lists, one with names, one without. The first
I use just as reference, the latter for real mailings. So as you can guess I
had not updated the reference list. That leaves us with 13 members. 

Timothy

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	["2385" "Wed" "8" "May" "1996" "00:20:27" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" "<199605072220.AA02209@student.utwente.nl>" "53" "Re: Physic help" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Physic help
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 00:20:27 +0100

>>Yes, but that still means that the momentum and energy are not necessary
>>equally distributed. Rex has given a 2 particle calculation but I wonder if
>>that makes much sense, since all energy/momentum is finally directed in one
>>direction namely backwards.
>
>I guess it would even out in the plasma.  Collisions and such.

Yes, something like this I had in mind.

>>What isn't mentioned in your fusion reactions is that within the engine
>>probably many photons are generated too. You should see these photons just
>>as a form of energy and not as an ingredient of the reaction.
>
>Supposedly not.  Thats why the reactions have virtually no radiation, and
>virtually all the energy can be converted to electricity.

I'm a bit amazed by that, maybe not initially but as soon as the particles
start colliding with each other I think photons may be created. I don't know
when or why photons are created, but I assume that something like blackbody
radiation will certainly create a bunch of them. Rex, do you know about that?

>>Didn't I show this a while ago? It shows the fuel to ship ratios.
>>
>>                          End velocity -->
>>          +------+-------+-------+------+-------+--------+
>>          | 0.20 |  0.30 |  0.40 | 0.50 |  0.60 |  0.70  |
>>    +-----+------+-------+-------+------+-------+--------+
>>  f | 200 |  7.6 |  22.2 |  69.5 |  244 |  1032 |   5906 |
>>    | 250 |  9.7 |  31.9 | 114.6 |  467 |  2338 |  16422 |
>> || | 300 | 12.0 |  44.4 | 180.0 |  839 |  4896 |  41401 |
>> || | 350 | 14.6 |  60.2 | 272.7 | 1439 |  9662 |  96907 |
>> || | 400 | 17.6 |  79.8 | 401.4 | 2376 | 18191 | 213876 |
>> \/ | 450 | 21.0 | 104.1 | 577.2 | 3805 | 32958 | 449882 |
>>    | 500 | 24.7 | 133.8 | 813.9 | 5941 | 57820 | 908988 |
>>    +-----+------+-------+-------+------+-------+--------+
>>
>>Where f is  c^2 / 2.058E14 = 439        (c=3E8 m/s)
>
>Having no idea how to tie F to acctual fuels.  This didn't help much.

I'm sorry, I hope you have an idea by now: f=c^2/(J/kg)

>>Our best reaction is 2H + 3He --> 4He +1H + 18.3 MeV
>>with 3.51E14 J/kg so that f=257
>
>???  That would give you a fuel mass ration of under 40 acording to your
> table.

Yes that's right, but keep in mind that these ratios are just for
acceleration or deceleration, if you want to accelerate and decelerate
without refilling in between then square the numbers (40^2=200).

Tim

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References: <199605072220.AA02209@student.utwente.nl>
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Physic help
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 15:47:16 -0700

Timothy van der Linden writes:
 > >>What isn't mentioned in your fusion reactions is that within the engine
 > >>probably many photons are generated too. You should see these photons just
 > >>as a form of energy and not as an ingredient of the reaction.
 > >
 > >Supposedly not.  Thats why the reactions have virtually no radiation, and
 > >virtually all the energy can be converted to electricity.
 > 
 > I'm a bit amazed by that, maybe not initially but as soon as the particles
 > start colliding with each other I think photons may be created. I don't know
 > when or why photons are created, but I assume that something like blackbody
 > radiation will certainly create a bunch of them. Rex, do you know about that?

My understanding of what would happen is that in energetic collisions,
electrons would get displaced in their orbits by mutual repulsion
between the electron shells of the colliding atoms.  When the electrons
snap back to their original orbits, they radiate photons.  Since heat is
just statistically random motion on a small scale, that's why hot
objects radiate.

 > Yes that's right, but keep in mind that these ratios are just for
 > acceleration or deceleration, if you want to accelerate and decelerate
 > without refilling in between then square the numbers (40^2=200).

40^2 is 1600.  Much, much worse.

From popserver Wed May  8 18:17:09 GMT 1996
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	["681" "Wed" "8" "May" "1996" "12:15:28" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "19" "Re: Physic help" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Physic help
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 12:15:28 +0100

Steve wrote:

>My understanding of what would happen is that in energetic collisions,
>electrons would get displaced in their orbits by mutual repulsion
>between the electron shells of the colliding atoms.  When the electrons
>snap back to their original orbits, they radiate photons.  Since heat is
>just statistically random motion on a small scale, that's why hot
>objects radiate.

Ah yes, I think I should have know that, in fact a day ago I was telling
someone that light was emitted when electrons fell back into a lower
energetic state.

>40^2 is 1600.  Much, much worse.

Oops, don't know what got into me, I guess my mind tried to deceive me to
prevent a shock.

Timothy

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From: David Levine 
To: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com"
	 ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
         "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" ,
         "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" 
To: "rddesign@wolfenet.com" ,
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To: "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"
	 
Subject: LIT (and other) Disasters
Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 06:44:30 -0400

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Okay, slight problem here.

Yesterday at around 7 or 8 PM, my system crashed.  Hard.
I have been here since then trying to fix it.  It is now 6:30 AM.
My system now sort of works, but EVERYTHING is gone.
This means all of Kelly's Explorer documents.  This means
the other LIT pages I've been editing when I get a chance.
This also means a hell of a lot of my actual work, too.  Luckily,
all my source code is backed up with Visual Source Safe.
But a lot of little minor things aren't backed up... and, well,
they add up.

Anyway, I have a conference to go to next week where
we're demoing this software package I've been working on
to a lot of people.  I was behind already.  Now I think I have
to be here around the clock until we leave.

Anyway, the upshot of all of this is that I may not have time
over the next week or two to reset up all the accounts again.
I'll try, but I can't promise anything.

And Kelly... (and anyone else who happened to upload)...
I sure hope you have a backup of the Explorer stuff.  I wish I
had more backups for my stuff.

-David

(Oh, BTW, this refers to the LIT staging-prototype server-type
thingy...not the SunSITE address...)


------ =_NextPart_000_01BB3CA9.D0149510--

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Physic help
Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 07:59:50 -0500

At 12:20 AM 5/8/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>>>Yes, but that still means that the momentum and energy are not necessary
>>>equally distributed. Rex has given a 2 particle calculation but I wonder if
>>>that makes much sense, since all energy/momentum is finally directed in one
>>>direction namely backwards.
>>
>>I guess it would even out in the plasma.  Collisions and such.
>
>Yes, something like this I had in mind.
>
>>>What isn't mentioned in your fusion reactions is that within the engine
>>>probably many photons are generated too. You should see these photons just
>>>as a form of energy and not as an ingredient of the reaction.
>>
>>Supposedly not.  Thats why the reactions have virtually no radiation, and
>>virtually all the energy can be converted to electricity.
>
>I'm a bit amazed by that, maybe not initially but as soon as the particles
>start colliding with each other I think photons may be created. I don't know
>when or why photons are created, but I assume that something like blackbody
>radiation will certainly create a bunch of them. Rex, do you know about that?

The info was taken from a paper by Bussard on reactors using these fuels.
The reactors converted virtuall all (99+%) of the fueles energy directly to
electricity.  No shielding or cooling system included.

I was impressed.

Probably the random collisions will cause heat and light.  But not until
its clear of the system (or the energy is converted to electricity).

>>>Didn't I show this a while ago? It shows the fuel to ship ratios.
>>>
>>>                          End velocity -->
>>>          +------+-------+-------+------+-------+--------+
>>>          | 0.20 |  0.30 |  0.40 | 0.50 |  0.60 |  0.70  |
>>>    +-----+------+-------+-------+------+-------+--------+
>>>  f | 200 |  7.6 |  22.2 |  69.5 |  244 |  1032 |   5906 |
>>>    | 250 |  9.7 |  31.9 | 114.6 |  467 |  2338 |  16422 |
>>> || | 300 | 12.0 |  44.4 | 180.0 |  839 |  4896 |  41401 |
>>> || | 350 | 14.6 |  60.2 | 272.7 | 1439 |  9662 |  96907 |
>>> || | 400 | 17.6 |  79.8 | 401.4 | 2376 | 18191 | 213876 |
>>> \/ | 450 | 21.0 | 104.1 | 577.2 | 3805 | 32958 | 449882 |
>>>    | 500 | 24.7 | 133.8 | 813.9 | 5941 | 57820 | 908988 |
>>>    +-----+------+-------+-------+------+-------+--------+
>>>
>>>Where f is  c^2 / 2.058E14 = 439        (c=3E8 m/s)
>>
>>Having no idea how to tie F to acctual fuels.  This didn't help much.
>
>I'm sorry, I hope you have an idea by now: f=c^2/(J/kg)
>
>>>Our best reaction is 2H + 3He --> 4He +1H + 18.3 MeV
>>>with 3.51E14 J/kg so that f=257
>>
>>???  That would give you a fuel mass ration of under 40 acording to your
>> table.
>
>Yes that's right, but keep in mind that these ratios are just for
>acceleration or deceleration, if you want to accelerate and decelerate
>without refilling in between then square the numbers (40^2=200).
>
>Tim

I was only calculating the ratio in the explorer craft for deceleration
(acceleration fuel isn't carried by the ship).  With the
velocities/specific impulse that was giving the fuel ration was far higher.
???

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David Levine 
Cc: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
         "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com"		 ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
         "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" ,
         "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" 
Subject: Re: LIT (and other) Disasters
Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 08:09:35 -0500

At 6:44 AM 5/8/96, David Levine wrote:
>Okay, slight problem here.
>
>Yesterday at around 7 or 8 PM, my system crashed.  Hard.
>I have been here since then trying to fix it.  It is now 6:30 AM.
>My system now sort of works, but EVERYTHING is gone.
>This means all of Kelly's Explorer documents.  This means
>the other LIT pages I've been editing when I get a chance.
>This also means a hell of a lot of my actual work, too.  Luckily,
>all my source code is backed up with Visual Source Safe.
>But a lot of little minor things aren't backed up... and, well,
>they add up.

Woah!  Your place is going to need to go to daily back-ups.  Or get you a
zip drive.  ;)



>Anyway, I have a conference to go to next week where
>we're demoing this software package I've been working on
>to a lot of people.  I was behind already.  Now I think I have
>to be here around the clock until we leave.

Hum, get yourself one of the fast multi-gig pinical drives and back up
hourly!  If your system has a problem and eats another day or two of your
work, you'll kill yourself.

>Anyway, the upshot of all of this is that I may not have time
>over the next week or two to reset up all the accounts again.
>I'll try, but I can't promise anything.
>
>And Kelly... (and anyone else who happened to upload)...
>I sure hope you have a backup of the Explorer stuff.  I wish I
>had more backups for my stuff.
>
>-David
>
>(Oh, BTW, this refers to the LIT staging-prototype server-type
>thingy...not the SunSITE address...)

Yeah, no problem.  As a matter of fact, I had tried to upload a new set of
everything yesterday (5:00 pm your time), but couldn't log on.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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	["1921" "Thu" "9" "May" "1996" "17:36:37" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "42" "Re: Physic help" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Physic help
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 17:36:37 +0100

Kelly wrote:

>The info was taken from a paper by Bussard on reactors using these fuels.
>The reactors converted virtuall all (99+%) of the fueles energy directly to
>electricity.  No shielding or cooling system included.
>
>I was impressed.
>
>Probably the random collisions will cause heat and light.  But not until
>its clear of the system (or the energy is converted to electricity).

Well like I wrote you before, I still haven't the faintest idea how the
Bussard engine works. Is there anyone who can tell me the principle (ie.
tell me more than that it uses fusion as initial energy source)?
(are there any good electronic references?)

>>                          End velocity -->
>>          +------+-------+-------+------+-------+--------+
>>          | 0.20 |  0.30 |  0.40 | 0.50 |  0.60 |  0.70  |
>>    +-----+------+-------+-------+------+-------+--------+
>>  f | 200 |  7.6 |  22.2 |  69.5 |  244 |  1032 |   5906 |
>>    | 250 |  9.7 |  31.9 | 114.6 |  467 |  2338 |  16422 |
>> || | 300 | 12.0 |  44.4 | 180.0 |  839 |  4896 |  41401 |
>> || | 350 | 14.6 |  60.2 | 272.7 | 1439 |  9662 |  96907 |
>> || | 400 | 17.6 |  79.8 | 401.4 | 2376 | 18191 | 213876 |
>> \/ | 450 | 21.0 | 104.1 | 577.2 | 3805 | 32958 | 449882 |
>>    | 500 | 24.7 | 133.8 | 813.9 | 5941 | 57820 | 908988 |
>>    +-----+------+-------+-------+------+-------+--------+
>>
>>   Where f is  c^2 / 2.058E14 = 439        (c=3E8 m/s)

>I was only calculating the ratio in the explorer craft for deceleration
>(acceleration fuel isn't carried by the ship).  With the
>velocities/specific impulse that was giving the fuel ration was far higher.
>???

But in your own calculations you didn't use a fusion fuel with f=257. You
used one with f=439, I did show that number just under the table, maybe you
have not seen it? When looking in the table for f=439, you'll see that the
number is somewhere near your own calculated ratio.

Timothy

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Physic help
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 11:25:37 -0500

At 5:36 PM 5/9/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>Kelly wrote:
>
>>The info was taken from a paper by Bussard on reactors using these fuels.
>>The reactors converted virtuall all (99+%) of the fueles energy directly to
>>electricity.  No shielding or cooling system included.
>>
>>I was impressed.
>>
>>Probably the random collisions will cause heat and light.  But not until
>>its clear of the system (or the energy is converted to electricity).
>
>Well like I wrote you before, I still haven't the faintest idea how the
>Bussard engine works. Is there anyone who can tell me the principle (ie.
>tell me more than that it uses fusion as initial energy source)?
>(are there any good electronic references?)

As near as I can figure it, it seems like a simple system.  An electron
cloud is compressed in the center of a hollow steel sphere by a voltage
charge on the sphere.  The fuel ions are feed into the center of the
electron cloud, which forms the fuels containment 'chanber' (i.e they are
repeled by the electrons and compresed into the center.).  The fuels chosen
release the energy of the fusion reaction only in the kinetic energy of the
released waste particals.  Those ions are going fast enough to blow threw
the electron cloud, and slam into voltage gradiant.  They are decelerated
by the voltage.  I.E. their kinetic energy is converted into a electrical
current in the reactor systems.


>>>                          End velocity -->
>>>          +------+-------+-------+------+-------+--------+
>>>          | 0.20 |  0.30 |  0.40 | 0.50 |  0.60 |  0.70  |
>>>    +-----+------+-------+-------+------+-------+--------+
>>>  f | 200 |  7.6 |  22.2 |  69.5 |  244 |  1032 |   5906 |
>>>    | 250 |  9.7 |  31.9 | 114.6 |  467 |  2338 |  16422 |
>>> || | 300 | 12.0 |  44.4 | 180.0 |  839 |  4896 |  41401 |
>>> || | 350 | 14.6 |  60.2 | 272.7 | 1439 |  9662 |  96907 |
>>> || | 400 | 17.6 |  79.8 | 401.4 | 2376 | 18191 | 213876 |
>>> \/ | 450 | 21.0 | 104.1 | 577.2 | 3805 | 32958 | 449882 |
>>>    | 500 | 24.7 | 133.8 | 813.9 | 5941 | 57820 | 908988 |
>>>    +-----+------+-------+-------+------+-------+--------+
>>>
>>>   Where f is  c^2 / 2.058E14 = 439        (c=3E8 m/s)
>
>>I was only calculating the ratio in the explorer craft for deceleration
>>(acceleration fuel isn't carried by the ship).  With the
>>velocities/specific impulse that was giving the fuel ration was far higher.
>>???
>
>But in your own calculations you didn't use a fusion fuel with f=257. You
>used one with f=439, I did show that number just under the table, maybe you
>have not seen it? When looking in the table for f=439, you'll see that the
>number is somewhere near your own calculated ratio.
>
>Timothy


???  In you first responce to my request for exaust velocity info you said:

>>For 2.058E14 Joule/kg this would give 2E7 m/s or 0.067c

I responded that a 2e7m/s exaust velocity would translate to a specific
impulse of about 2,000,000.  Which would mean the explorer class would need
carry 148 times its own weight in fuel to get down from .3 c.

So what is f in your equation?  How do you get a lower F for a fuel?  Given
the 2.058E14 in:

>>>   Where f is  c^2 / 2.058E14 = 439        (c=3E8 m/s)

It would imply you were using the same fuel, He3 as listed in my table.
But your geting wildly differnt fuel ratios with it.

In short I am totally confused.  Worse I'm completly confused in a critical
peace of info about the system!!  I.E. the specific impluse of the fusion
drive.

I assume we both still agree that converting the fuel energy to
electricity, and electricly accelerating a reaction mass will not help us
any?


REX!  Can you shine some light on this?!!

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: News report
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 16:39:19 -0500

If you think you're having a bad day...

Fire Authorities in California found a corpse in a burnt out section of forest
whilst assessing the damage done by a forest fire. The deceased male was dressed
in a full wetsuit, complete with a dive tank, flippers and face mask.  A post-
mortem examination revealed that the person died not from burns but from massive
internal injuries. Dental records provided a positive identification.

Investigators then set about determining how a fully clad diver ended up in the
middle of a forest fire.

It was revealed that, on the day of the fire, the person went for a diving trip
off the coast--some 20 MILES away from the forest.  The firefighters, seeking to
control the fire as quickly as possible, called in a fleet of helicopters with
very large buckets.  The buckets were dropped into the ocean for rapid filling,
then flown to the forest fire and emptied.

You guessed it!  One minute our diver was making like Flipper in the Pacific,
the next he was doing a breaststroke in a fire bucket 300m in the air.
Apparently, he extinguished exactly 1.78m (5'10") of the fire.

Some days it just doesn't pay to get out of bed!!


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Physic help
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 18:21:59 +0100

To Kelly,

>>Well like I wrote you before, I still haven't the faintest idea how the
>>Bussard engine works. Is there anyone who can tell me the principle (ie.
>>tell me more than that it uses fusion as initial energy source)?
>>(are there any good electronic references?)
>
>As near as I can figure it, it seems like a simple system.  An electron
>cloud is compressed in the center of a hollow steel sphere by a voltage
>charge on the sphere.  The fuel ions are feed into the center of the
>electron cloud, which forms the fuels containment 'chanber' (i.e they are
>repeled by the electrons and compresed into the center.).

I assume the ions positive, are you sure they are repelled?

>The fuels chosen
>release the energy of the fusion reaction only in the kinetic energy of the
>released waste particals.  Those ions are going fast enough to blow threw
>the electron cloud, and slam into voltage gradiant.  They are decelerated
>by the voltage.  I.E. their kinetic energy is converted into a electrical
>current in the reactor systems.

To keep the electrons in the center the voltage at the wall of the steel
sphere should be negative, the ions from the reaction are positive and will
thus be accelerated instead of decelerated.

It isn't necessary to decelerate the ions from the reaction, they will also
give an electrical current when they move fast.

But now that I have some fague idea how a Bussard engine works, I see that
all calulations you asked for are meaningless because you transfer the
fusion energy first to electric energy by decelerating particles. Then you
use the electric energy to accelerate other (or the same) particles by a
lineac (I suppose).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

>???  In you first responce to my request for exaust velocity info you said:
>
>>>For 2.058E14 Joule/kg this would give 2E7 m/s or 0.067c
>
>I responded that a 2e7m/s exaust velocity would translate to a specific
>impulse of about 2,000,000.  Which would mean the explorer class would need
>carry 148 times its own weight in fuel to get down from .3 c.
>
>So what is f in your equation?  How do you get a lower F for a fuel?  Given
>the 2.058E14 in:
>
>>>>   Where f is  c^2 / 2.058E14 = 439        (c=3E8 m/s)
>
>It would imply you were using the same fuel, He3 as listed in my table.
>But your geting wildly differnt fuel ratios with it.
>
>In short I am totally confused.  Worse I'm completly confused in a critical
>peace of info about the system!!  I.E. the specific impluse of the fusion
>drive.
>
>I assume we both still agree that converting the fuel energy to
>electricity, and electricly accelerating a reaction mass will not help us
>any?

I don't see why you need to be confused, I get a ratio of about 100 and you
get a ratio of about 150. I'm not sure what exactly causes this difference
but I assume it is caused somewhere in your calculation.

About "converting the fuel energy to electricity, and electricly
accelerating a reaction mass", it depends on several factors whether this is
true, but generaly it does not help us much.

f = The fuel factor = (Total mass of the fuel) divided by (mass of the fuel
that can be converted to energy).

So say that you have a fusion fuel and are able to "squeeze" 2E14 joules per
kilogram out of it. Now all you have to do is determine the mass equivalence
of that amount of energy with E=m*c^2 (m=E/c^2).
In this case that makes m=2E14/9E16=0.00222 kg
The total mass of the fuel was 1 kg
So f=1/0.00222=450
Then look in the table for a final velocity of 0.3c and we see a fuel to
ship ratio of 104.
This table doesn't show anything about exhaust velocities but assumes the
best possible (which in this case is 0.06333c assuming 100% efficiency).


Timothy

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Physic help
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 12:07:36 -0500

At 6:21 PM 5/10/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>To Kelly,
>
>>>Well like I wrote you before, I still haven't the faintest idea how the
>>>Bussard engine works. Is there anyone who can tell me the principle (ie.
>>>tell me more than that it uses fusion as initial energy source)?
>>>(are there any good electronic references?)
>>
>>As near as I can figure it, it seems like a simple system.  An electron
>>cloud is compressed in the center of a hollow steel sphere by a voltage
>>charge on the sphere.  The fuel ions are feed into the center of the
>>electron cloud, which forms the fuels containment 'chanber' (i.e they are
>>repeled by the electrons and compresed into the center.).
>
>I assume the ions positive, are you sure they are repelled?

Hum, good question.  Maybe it had an ion cloud of fuel in the center not
electrons.  I'll have to dig that paper up again and check.

>>The fuels chosen
>>release the energy of the fusion reaction only in the kinetic energy of the
>>released waste particals.  Those ions are going fast enough to blow threw
>>the electron cloud, and slam into voltage gradiant.  They are decelerated
>>by the voltage.  I.E. their kinetic energy is converted into a electrical
>>current in the reactor systems.
>
>To keep the electrons in the center the voltage at the wall of the steel
>sphere should be negative, the ions from the reaction are positive and will
>thus be accelerated instead of decelerated.
>
>It isn't necessary to decelerate the ions from the reaction, they will also
>give an electrical current when they move fast.

I think that if you run them threw a voltage gradiant they  lose their
energy to it.  If they don't lose kinetic energy somewhere, you don't get
electricity.

>But now that I have some fague idea how a Bussard engine works, I see that
>all calulations you asked for are meaningless because you transfer the
>fusion energy first to electric energy by decelerating particles. Then you
>use the electric energy to accelerate other (or the same) particles by a
>lineac (I suppose).

Not nessisarily.  If you don't slow down the partical (excluding losses in
forceing their way past the compression fields) you can direct that as a
plasma thrust.  Thats why I needed to find out what velocity they would
have, so I could work out the specific impulse and then the fuel mass
ratios.


The liniac would have certain advantages.  But also extra complexity.  So
unless it would give us some performance advantage I'll assume the drive
systems are using direct plasma thrust.

>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>>???  In you first responce to my request for exaust velocity info you said:
>>
>>>>For 2.058E14 Joule/kg this would give 2E7 m/s or 0.067c
>>
>>I responded that a 2e7m/s exaust velocity would translate to a specific
>>impulse of about 2,000,000.  Which would mean the explorer class would need
>>carry 148 times its own weight in fuel to get down from .3 c.
>>
>>So what is f in your equation?  How do you get a lower F for a fuel?  Given
>>the 2.058E14 in:
>>
>>>>>   Where f is  c^2 / 2.058E14 = 439        (c=3E8 m/s)
>>
>>It would imply you were using the same fuel, He3 as listed in my table.
>>But your geting wildly differnt fuel ratios with it.
>>
>>In short I am totally confused.  Worse I'm completly confused in a critical
>>peace of info about the system!!  I.E. the specific impluse of the fusion
>>drive.
>>
>>I assume we both still agree that converting the fuel energy to
>>electricity, and electricly accelerating a reaction mass will not help us
>>any?
>
>I don't see why you need to be confused, I get a ratio of about 100 and you
>get a ratio of about 150. I'm not sure what exactly causes this difference
>but I assume it is caused somewhere in your calculation.

I was runing it through the programs on the LIT servers computer center.
Do you know if their is an error in that software?

>About "converting the fuel energy to electricity, and electricly
>accelerating a reaction mass", it depends on several factors whether this is
>true, but generaly it does not help us much.

Pity we don't know of a way to make it work for us.

>f = The fuel factor = (Total mass of the fuel) divided by (mass of the fuel
>that can be converted to energy).

Oh yeah.  Thats why I never used that table.  Strange number.  How would I
find out what the fuel factor number for any of my fuels is?  (Yeah ok you
added the equation below, but thats not a big help for someone tring to use
the table.)  Or, why would you use the fuel factor in a table?

>So say that you have a fusion fuel and are able to "squeeze" 2E14 joules per
>kilogram out of it. Now all you have to do is determine the mass equivalence
>of that amount of energy with E=m*c^2 (m=E/c^2).
>In this case that makes m=2E14/9E16=0.00222 kg
>The total mass of the fuel was 1 kg
>So f=1/0.00222=450
>Then look in the table for a final velocity of 0.3c and we see a fuel to
>ship ratio of 104.
>This table doesn't show anything about exhaust velocities but assumes the
>best possible (which in this case is 0.06333c assuming 100% efficiency).
>
>
>Timothy

Thanks for the walk threw.  It was helpful.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Physic help
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 00:14:10 +0100

>>>As near as I can figure it, it seems like a simple system.  An electron
>>>cloud is compressed in the center of a hollow steel sphere by a voltage
>>>charge on the sphere.  The fuel ions are feed into the center of the
>>>electron cloud, which forms the fuels containment 'chanber' (i.e they are
>>>repeled by the electrons and compresed into the center.).
>>
>>I assume the ions positive, are you sure they are repelled?
>
>Hum, good question.  Maybe it had an ion cloud of fuel in the center not
>electrons.  I'll have to dig that paper up again and check.

I indeed think that makes more sense, that way they positive ions are also
decelerated when they make it out of the inner ion-cloud.

>>It isn't necessary to decelerate the ions from the reaction, they will also
>>give an electrical current when they move fast.
>
>I think that if you run them threw a voltage gradiant they  lose their
>energy to it.  If they don't lose kinetic energy somewhere, you don't get
>electricity.

Well in theory they create a charge difference, the inside of the core gets
more negative while the outside gets more positive. The idea is a bit like
charging a capacitor.
Of course while creating this potential difference, the particle
decelerates, and when decharging it, the particles decharge even more. But
anyway, I don't care, as long as we get energy from it.

>The liniac would have certain advantages.  But also extra complexity.  So
>unless it would give us some performance advantage I'll assume the drive
>systems are using direct plasma thrust.

But then we are back to the photons inside the engine, since we are talking
about a dense plasma, a lot of collisions will be going on and then you
readely get photons.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

>I was runing it through the programs on the LIT servers computer center.
>Do you know if their is an error in that software?

I'm not sure, I only used it once. I think Steve did check several programs
once and found one to be not correct.
One thing I'm quite sure of, the program at the LIT server is probably made
for chemical fuels, in fusion fuels the energy density is much greater (and
thus a significant amount of mass is transferred to "mass-less" energy).

>>f = The fuel factor = (Total mass of the fuel) divided by (mass of the fuel
>>that can be converted to energy).
>
>Oh yeah.  Thats why I never used that table.  Strange number.  How would I
>find out what the fuel factor number for any of my fuels is?  (Yeah ok you
>added the equation below, but thats not a big help for someone tring to use
>the table.)  Or, why would you use the fuel factor in a table?

I personally find it not a stange number at all, it shows very clear what
part of the initial mass can be converted to energy (for anti-matter&matter
mixture f=1, or said differently, all mass can be converted to energy).
I assumed that everyone who would read my document did know about E=mc^2 and
thus could calculate it (as you could see the calculation was rather
straight forward.
I already had added a table with fusion fuels and their f-ratios, I think it
isn't visible on the web at the moment since all my web-sites seem to have
collapsed lately.
Also originally I had a little (but unclear) example of how to calculate f,
maybe I should add it again.

Tim

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In-Reply-To: <199605102214.AA22187@student.utwente.nl>
References: <199605102214.AA22187@student.utwente.nl>
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Physic help
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 21:12:23 -0700

Timothy van der Linden writes:
 > >I was runing it through the programs on the LIT servers computer center.
 > >Do you know if their is an error in that software?
 > 
 > I'm not sure, I only used it once. I think Steve did check several programs
 > once and found one to be not correct.

I only recall checking the relativistic acceleration/time/distance
program, but it was incorrect.

The correct equation to use is:

t = c / a * acosh(1 + a * d / c^2)

where

a = acceleration (m/s^2)
d = distance (m)
t = time (s)
c = speed of light (m/s) (duh)
acosh = inverse hyperbolic cosine

I recall the program in the LIT archives used alog (inverse common
logarithm) instead, apparently because it was translated from BASIC to C
by a rather poor automated translator.

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Physic help
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 16:18:33 +0100

>I recall the program in the LIT archives used alog (inverse common
>logarithm) instead, apparently because it was translated from BASIC to C
>by a rather poor automated translator.

Steve, thank you for refreshing my mind.

Kelly, maybe I'll take a look at the source code one of these days, what was
the name of the program you used?


Timothy

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From: David Levine 
To: "'Steve VanDevender'" 
Subject: RE: Physic help
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 14:46:45 -0400

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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Actually, it was a human... but not me.
-David

>I recall the program in the LIT archives used alog (inverse common
>logarithm) instead, apparently because it was translated from BASIC to C
>by a rather poor automated translator.
>

------ =_NextPart_000_01BB3F48.ADE65810--

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Physic help
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 23:25:49 -0400

The lit programs I used were the ones that calculated the specific impulse
when given a exaust velocity, and the ones for calculating the terminal
speed/fuel mass ration/specific impulse.  Give 2 of the three and it figures
out the third.  There were actually 2 of the latter programs (both for staged
and single stage craft) and the numbers were close.

I don't see how energy content of the fuel would effect the calculations,
since that wasn't an imput.  Only the exaust velocity or specific impulse.

Kelly

From popserver Mon May 13 08:52:30 GMT 1996
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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Physic help
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 23:25:59 -0400

> >>f = The fuel factor = (Total mass of the fuel) divided by (mass of the
fuel
> >>that can be converted to energy).
> >
> >Oh yeah.  Thats why I never used that table.  Strange number.  How would I
> >find out what the fuel factor number for any of my fuels is?  (Yeah ok you
> >added the equation below, but thats not a big help for someone tring to
use
> >the table.)  Or, why would you use the fuel factor in a table?

> I personally find it not a stange number at all, it shows very clear what
> part of the initial mass can be converted to energy (for anti-matter&matter
> mixture f=1, or said differently, all mass can be converted to energy).

True, after you do the calculation, but initself not a very helpfull number.
 In this case, its sort of an intermediate step in a calculation, rather than
a usefull result in itself.  Also kind of confusing.

> I assumed that everyone who would read my document did know about E=mc^2
and
> thus could calculate it (as you could see the calculation was rather
> straight forward.

Only after you remenber the units of measure that are to be used in the
equation.  An exaple WITH UNITS does help a lot.

Kelly


From popserver Mon May 13 17:04:38 GMT 1996
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	["1999" "Mon" "13" "May" "1996" "19:02:39" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "42" "Re: Physic help" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Physic help
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 19:02:39 +0100

>> I personally find it not a stange number at all, it shows very clear what
>> part of the initial mass can be converted to energy (for anti-matter&matter
>> mixture f=1, or said differently, all mass can be converted to energy).
>
>True, after you do the calculation, but initself not a very helpfull number.
> In this case, its sort of an intermediate step in a calculation, rather than
>a usefull result in itself.  Also kind of confusing.

It is certainly not an intermediate number in a calculation. I think it is
one of the most important numbers when one compares fuels needed for
interstellar space travel. (Compare this to the density of different
substances, it is a fundamental property and not just some number that turns
up after you devide the weight by the volume.)

-=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=-

>The lit programs I used were the ones that calculated the specific impulse
>when given a exaust velocity, and the ones for calculating the terminal
>speed/fuel mass ration/specific impulse.  Give 2 of the three and it figures
>out the third.  There were actually 2 of the latter programs (both for staged
>and single stage craft) and the numbers were close.

That program uses the classic rocket equation that is also used for chemical
rocket engines:

M=M0 Exp(Vend/Vexh)

This formula assumes that all fuel can be used as reaction mass, as long as
you use chemicals the error is no very significant, but when using fusion
fuel a measurable part of the fuel is converted to energy and thus cannot be
used as reaction mass.
It is mainly this that causes the rather large error, besides that
relativistics also plays a small role that probably causes another small
deviation.

>I don't see how energy content of the fuel would effect the calculations,
>since that wasn't an imput.  Only the exaust velocity or specific impulse.

That's exactly what I mean, the program didn't even bother to figure out
what kind of fuel was used.

Timothy

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: More weird stuff
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 10:30:39 -0500


What is a committee?  A group of the unwilling, picked from the
unfit, to do the unnecessary.
                              -- Richard Harkness,
                                 The New York Times, 1960


With every passing hour our solar system comes forty-three
thousand miles closer to globular cluster 13 in the
constellation Hercules, and still there are some misfits who
continue to insist that there is no such thing as progress.
                              -- Ransom K. Ferm

Madness takes its toll.  Please have exact change.


The graduate with a Science degree asks, "Why does it work?"
The graduate with an Engineering degree asks, "How does it work?"
The graduate with an Accounting degree asks, "How much will it cost?"
The graduate with a Liberal Arts degree asks, "Do you want fries with that?"



There's so much comedy on television.  Does that cause comedy in
the streets?
                              -- Dick Cavett


Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent
revolution inevitable.
                              -- John F. Kennedy


Once at a social gathering, Gladstone said to Disraeli, "I
predict, Sir, that you will die either by hanging or of some vile
disease". Disraeli replied, "That all depends, sir, upon whether
I embrace your principles or your mistress."



Sacred cows make the best hamburger.
                              -- Mark Twain


"Time's fun when you're having flies."
                              -- Kermit the Frog


Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone
wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than
one night."
                                -- Charlie Brown,
                                 _Peanuts_ [Charles Schulz]


This commercial break is brought to you by Microsoft
                                -- Steve Jobs of NeXT
                               [when a Win'95 machine crashed
                                during a demo of WWW products]



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: Re: jpl WEB training
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 09:08:25 -0500

Saw this in some old data space and thought some of the new guys might be
interested.  Or some of us veterans.

Kelly



>X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.magec.com
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 08:10:35 -0500
>To: KellySt@aol.com
>From: kgstar@most.magec.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
>Subject: Re: jpl WEB training
>Cc: david@interworld.com, kgstar@most.magec.com
>
>At 11:55 PM 12/3/95, KellySt@aol.com wrote:
>>Subject: (no subject)
>>From: Steve Collins 
>>Date: 30 Nov 1995 18:25:54 GMT
>>Message-ID: <49ksvi$8li@netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov>
>>
>>
>>I ran across the following web page recently and like it so
>>much I wanted to make sure everyone knew about it:
>>
>>http://oel-www.jpl.nasa.gov/basics/bsf.htm
>>
>>Originally created as an internal JPL training document, the
>>Basics of Spaceflight is comprehensive, medium level overview
>>of a wide range of topics related to construction and
>>operation of planetary spacecraft.
>>
>>The material is extremely well written and unlike many NASA outreach
>>and educational materials, has not been digested down to the
>>5th grade level. In my view, it is at the perfect level for the
>>technically inclined space buff, in other words *YOU*.
>>
>>I encourage you to visit the page, and take a look.
>>
>>          Steve Collins  Galileo Orbiter Engineering Team
>>                         1 Week Till JOI !!!!!!!
>>
>>
>>
>>Here is a short sample, followed by the table of contents:
>>
>>
>>
>>Resource Contention
>>
>>Timing for many JPL missions is affected most directly by solar system
>>geometry, which dictates
>>optimum launch periods. It correspondingly implies the "part of the sky"
>>that the proposed
>>spacecraft will occupy and how many other spacecraft it may have to
>>compete with for DSN
>>antenna time. If possible, it is very advantageous to fly a mission
>>toward an area where the
>>spacecraft will share little or none of its viewperiod with other
>>missions (viewperiod is the span
>>of time during which one DSS can observe a particular spacecraft above
>>its local horizon). Years
>>before launch, mission designers request a "what-if" study by Section
>>371's Resource Analysis
>>Team to determine the probable degree of contention for DSN tracking
>>time during the mission.
>>Such a study can assist project management in the selection of launch
>>date and mission profile
>>with the least contention for external resources, and maximized science
>>return for the mission.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>CONTENTS:
>>
>>
>>GLOSSARY OF TERMS AND ABBREVIATIONS
>>
>>INTRODUCTION
>>
>>
>>       Learning Strategy
>>       If You Have Questions
>>       Help with Abbreviations and Units of Measure
>>       How to Get a Paper Copy
>>
>>SECTION I . THE ENVIRONMENT OF SPACE
>>
>>1. The Solar System
>>
>>
>>       Distances Within the Solar System
>>       The Sun
>>       Interplanetary Space
>>       The Terrestrial Planets
>>       The Jovian Planets
>>       Inferior and Superior Planets
>>       Asteroids
>>       Comets
>>       Meteoroids
>>
>>2. Earth and its Reference Systems
>>
>>
>>       Terrestrial Coordinates
>>       Rotation of Earth
>>       Precession of the Earth Axis
>>       Revolution of Earth
>>       The Celestial Sphere
>>       Right Ascension, Declination, and Related Terms
>>       Time Conventions
>>
>>3. Gravitation and Mechanics
>>
>>
>>       Ellipses
>>       Newton's Principles of Mechanics
>>       Acceleration in Orbit
>>       Kepler's Laws
>>       Gravity Gradients and Tidal Forces
>>
>>4. Interplanetary Trajectories
>>
>>
>>       Hohmann Transfer Orbits
>>       Gravity Assist Trajectories
>>
>>5. Planetary Orbits
>>
>>
>>       Orbital Parameters and Elements
>>       Types of Orbits
>>
>>6. Electromagnetic Phenomena
>>
>>
>>       Electromagnetic Radiation
>>       Electromagnetic Spectrum
>>       Natural and Artificial Emitters
>>       Radio Frequencies
>>       Spectroscopy
>>       Doppler Effect
>>       Differenced Doppler
>>       Reflection
>>       Refraction
>>       Phase
>>
>>SECTION II . SPACE FLIGHT PROJECTS
>>
>>7. Overview of Mission Inception
>>
>>
>>       Conceptual Study
>>       Phase A: Preliminary Analysis (Proof of Concept)
>>       Phase B: Definition
>>       Phase C/D: Design and Development
>>       Operations Phase
>>       Design Considerations
>>
>>8. Experiments
>>
>>
>>       The Scientific Community
>>       Gathering Scientific Data
>>       Science and Engineering Data
>>       The Science Data Pipeline
>>       Radio Science
>>       Gravity Field Surveys
>>       Dissemination of Results
>>
>>9. Spacecraft Classification
>>
>>
>>       Flyby Spacecraft
>>       Orbiter Spacecraft
>>       Atmospheric Probe Spacecraft
>>       Atmospheric Balloon Packages
>>       Lander Spacecraft
>>       Surface Penetrator Spacecraft
>>       Surface Rover Spacecraft
>>       Current Flight Projects at JPL
>>       Future Flight Projects at JPL
>>
>>       Descriptions and Illustrations of the Spacecraft
>>
>>              Voyagers 1 and 2
>>              Magellan
>>              Ulysses
>>              TOPEX/Poseidon
>>              Pioneers 10 and 11
>>              Viking Lander
>>              Mars Observer
>>              Mars Global Surveyor
>>              Galileo Atmospheric Probe
>>              Cassini
>>              Huygens Probe
>>              Mars Pathfinder. Please also see the Mars Pathfinder Home
>>Page.
>>              Mars Lander, Deployed
>>              Mars Balloon
>>              Pluto Spacecraft
>>
>>10. Telecommunications
>>
>>
>>       Signal Power
>>       Uplink and Downlink
>>       Modulation and Demodulation
>>       Multiplexing
>>       Coherence
>>
>>11. Typical Onboard Subsystems
>>
>>
>>       Detailed Galileo Drawing to Illustrate Chapters 11 and 12
>>       Subsystems and Systems
>>       Structural Subsystems
>>       Data Handling Subsystems
>>       Attitude and Articulation Control Subsystems
>>       Telecommunications Subsystems
>>       Electrical Power Supply and Distribution Subsystems
>>       Environmental Subsystems
>>       Propulsion Subsystems
>>       Pyrotechnic Subsystems
>>       Block Diagram Illustration
>>       Redundancy and Flexibility
>>       Advanced Technologies
>>
>>12. Typical Science Instruments
>>
>>
>>       Science Payload
>>       Direct and Remote Sensing
>>       Direct-Sensing Science Instruments
>>       Remote-Sensing Science Instruments
>>       Active Sensing Science Instruments
>>
>>13. Spacecraft Navigation
>>
>>
>>       Data Types
>>       Spacecraft Velocity Measurement
>>       Spacecraft Distance Measurement
>>       Spacecraft Angular Measurement
>>       Optical Navigation
>>       Orbit Determination
>>       Trajectory Correction Maneuvers
>>       Orbit Trim Maneuvers
>>
>>SECTION III. SPACE FLIGHT OPERATIONS
>>
>>14. Launch Phase
>>
>>
>>       Launch Vehicles
>>       Launch Sites
>>       Launch Windows
>>       Preparations For Launch
>>
>>15. Cruise Phase
>>
>>
>>       Spacecraft Checkout and Characterization
>>       Real-time Commanding
>>       Typical Daily Operations
>>       Preparation for Encounter
>>
>>16. Encounter Phase
>>
>>
>>       Flyby Operations
>>       Planetary Orbit Insertion
>>       System Exploration and Planetary Mapping
>>       Occultations
>>       Gravity Field Surveying
>>       Atmospheric Entry and Aerobraking
>>       Landing
>>       Balloon Tracking
>>       Sampling
>>
>>17. Extended Operations Phase
>>
>>       Completion Of Primary Objectives
>>       Additional Science Data
>>       End of Mission
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.magec.com
>Sr. Systems Engineer
>Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
>(Magnavox URL: http://www.magec.com/external.html)
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: Re: Re: The future...etc.
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 09:10:07 -0500

Did we ever discus this idea?  Any interest?

Kelly


>Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:47:57 -0500
>From: DotarSojat@aol.com
>To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
>        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
>        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
>        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, bmansur@oc.edu
>Subject: Re: Re: The future...etc.
>
>Kelly and some unidentified person he quotes on 3/17/96 at
>11:02 am (I plan someday to be able to decipher your quotes)
>say that it is "frustrating being stuck in the 1990s while
>trying to design a ship whose technology is really at least
>100 years beyond our reach."
>
>What would you think about modifying the purpose of the Project
>slightly?  In a Reusable Launch Vehicle Study I ran 30 years
>ago (my, how time flies!), we had a purpose you might consider
>for this Project.  The purpose was (paraphrased, because the
>Report is in my office 26 miles away, and I don't plan on
>going in there in the near future) (1) to make an internally
>consistent comparison of the different options, with conceptual
>design only in enough detail to allow rating them regarding
>feasibility and cost, and (2) to determine the advancements in
>technology in relation to current levels required to make them
>achievable.  While that study mainly considered options
>consistent with a decision to develop the Space Shuttle only
>five years hence (which we didn't know at that time), it spent
>a lot of time examining the competitive standing and techno-
>logical requirements for scramjets (aka "the Aerospaceplane"),
>which may still be decades in the future today.
>
>Such a comparative study could be a guide to steer future
>efforts away from the losers, but mainly would provide the
>"mission push" to support advancement in the key technologies.
>
>Rex
>
>P.S. To David: While the Interstellar Propulsion Society may
>provide a forum to publish sophisticated technical papers, I
>view the LIT/SSD as a forum to stimulate and shape the minds
>of the emerging generation, who will be around to accomplish
>the goals.  I would rather participate in stimulating enthus-
>iasm than in deferring to existing authority.  It's a lot
>more rewarding to figure how it should be done than to con-
>tribute to extending the status quo.  It's better to be part
>of an organization where what you say is more important than
>how you say it.  I could go on and on...                   -Rex
>


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
         101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Cc: zkulpa
Subject: Re: Re: The future...etc.
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 16:40:27 +0200

> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Wed May 15 16:18:57 1996
> 
> Did we ever discus this idea?  Any interest?
> 
> Kelly
> 
> >Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:47:57 -0500
> >From: DotarSojat@aol.com
> >
> >What would you think about modifying the purpose of the Project
> >slightly?  In a Reusable Launch Vehicle Study I ran 30 years
> >ago (my, how time flies!), we had a purpose you might consider
> >for this Project.  The purpose was (paraphrased, because the
> >Report is in my office 26 miles away, and I don't plan on
> >going in there in the near future) (1) to make an internally
> >consistent comparison of the different options, with conceptual
> >design only in enough detail to allow rating them regarding
> >feasibility and cost, and (2) to determine the advancements in
> >technology in relation to current levels required to make them
> >achievable. 
> >
>
My proposal to compile a "Design Space" survey,
was directed roughly toward the same goal, esp. the point (1) above,
in addition to provide a sort of summary of our
previous discussions and achievements.
After my first, very fragmentaric sketch,
Kelly attempted to write an extended version
which he posted on our list and put on his WWW pages.
However, his version is more like his personal opinion
on certain issues (some of them quite controversial
among us here) rather than impartial summary
of the discussions or awailable options.
It (like my sketch) also does not cover the full "design space" anyway.
Thus more work towards the Design Space idea
would be necessary. If only I had more time :-(
I would attempt to prepare my extended version of it,
or at least comment extensively on Kelly's...

As to the point (2) above, we also briefly started
something along this line - remember short discussion
originated by me on technological progress
in propulsion, AI and nanotechnology necessary
to make the starship idea workable?

So, generally, I am FOR making the Dotar idea 
a central issue of our work here...

Regards,

-- Zenon

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
         101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
         zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re: Re: The future...etc.
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 10:21:50 -0500

At 4:40 PM 5/15/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Wed May 15 16:18:57 1996
>>
>> Did we ever discus this idea?  Any interest?
>>
>> Kelly
>>
>> >Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:47:57 -0500
>> >From: DotarSojat@aol.com
>> >
>> >What would you think about modifying the purpose of the Project
>> >slightly?  In a Reusable Launch Vehicle Study I ran 30 years
>> >ago (my, how time flies!), we had a purpose you might consider
>> >for this Project.  The purpose was (paraphrased, because the
>> >Report is in my office 26 miles away, and I don't plan on
>> >going in there in the near future) (1) to make an internally
>> >consistent comparison of the different options, with conceptual
>> >design only in enough detail to allow rating them regarding
>> >feasibility and cost, and (2) to determine the advancements in
>> >technology in relation to current levels required to make them
>> >achievable.
>> >
>>
>My proposal to compile a "Design Space" survey,
>was directed roughly toward the same goal, esp. the point (1) above,
>in addition to provide a sort of summary of our
>previous discussions and achievements.
>After my first, very fragmentaric sketch,
>Kelly attempted to write an extended version
>which he posted on our list and put on his WWW pages.
>However, his version is more like his personal opinion
>on certain issues (some of them quite controversial
>among us here) rather than impartial summary
>of the discussions or awailable options.
>It (like my sketch) also does not cover the full "design space" anyway.
>Thus more work towards the Design Space idea
>would be necessary. If only I had more time :-(
>I would attempt to prepare my extended version of it,
>or at least comment extensively on Kelly's...

Yeah, I was expecting more reaction or counter inputs to my draft of the
Web page stuff.  I even brought up the idea of cross referncing to peoples
'minority opinion papers' on contraversial stuff.  I tried to be balenced,
but that doesn't help much if their are basic contradictions.

>As to the point (2) above, we also briefly started
>something along this line - remember short discussion
>originated by me on technological progress
>in propulsion, AI and nanotechnology necessary
>to make the starship idea workable?
>
>So, generally, I am FOR making the Dotar idea
>a central issue of our work here...
>
>Regards,
>
>-- Zenon


Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Thu May 16 18:48:45 GMT 1996
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	["3667" "Thu" "16" "May" "1996" "14:42:25" "-0400" "DotarSojat@aol.com" "DotarSojat@aol.com" nil "86" "Re: Physic help" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil]
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From: DotarSojat@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
cc: sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, MLEN3097@peachnet.edu,
         kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Subject: Re: Physic help
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 14:42:25 -0400

To Kelly

Beware of using chemical-rocket parameters for fusion/antimatter
rockets.  The parameter to be most wary of is the specific im-
pulse, "Isp."  Isp is the rocket-engine thrust per unit mass
flow rate (out of the nozzle).

We are interested in an equation that gives the velocity incre-
ment, "delta-V," of the rocket stage in terms of the ratio of
the initial mass of the stage to the final mass, the "mass
ratio".  The equation is called the "rocket equation" in the West
and the "Tsiolkovsky equation" in Russia (after the first person
to derive it).  The depletion in mass (initial mass minus final
mass) for a chemical rocket stage is solely propellant.  For a
fusion/antimatter rocket, however, the mass depletion is the sum
of the propellant mass (out of the "nozzle," or accelerator) and
the mass converted to energy in the fusion or matter/antimatter-
annihilation reaction.  

For a chemical rocket stage, the parameter that links the delta-V
with the function of the mass ratio (the natural log) is simply
the exhaust velocity, Vexh, i.e.,

           delta-V = Vexh ln(mass ratio)   .

[Isp was invented, I believe, to allow English-system (foot-pound-
second) engineers to talk about rocket performance with metric-
system (meter-kilogram-second) engineers by "non-dimensionalizing"
the exhaust velocity.  This was done by dividing it by the cons-
tant gc, i.e.,

            Vexh/gc = Isp    .

This reduces the units to "seconds", which are common to both sys-
tems.  The constant gc is only incidentally equal in value to the
standard acceleration of gravity; it is properly referred to as
the conversion factor from mass to force units, either 32.17405
lbmass-ft/(sec^2-lbforce) or 9.80665 kgmass-m/(sec^2-kgforce).
(To be totally correct, the units of Isp should be lbforce-sec/
lbmass or kgforce-sec/kgmass, but the ratios lbforce/lbmass and
kgforce/kgmass are usually just left out of both Isp and gc.)]

For a fusion/antimatter rocket, additional parameters that must be
included in the rocket equation are the ratio of the fusion/anti-
matter mass to the mass converted to reaction energy (Timothy's
"f") and the efficiency of conversion of reaction energy to ex-
haust kinetic energy (let's call it "eta").  Also, the velocity
increment must be put into relativistic terms.  The relativistic
fusion/antimatter rocket equation becomes much more complicated
than the chemical rocket equation, i.e., the increment in apparent
velocity is given by

   delta-V/c = tanh[(gexh eta/[(eta) + f(gexh - 1)]) *
                                         (Vexh/c) ln(mass ratio)]
where
        gexh = sqrt[1 - (Vexh/c)^2]

or the increment in proper velocity is given by

   delta-U/c = sinh[(gexh eta/[(eta) + f(gexh - 1)]) *
                                         (Vexh/c) ln(mass ratio)]

(Note: for fusion, i.e., f greater than 1, the (eta) term does
not appear because some of the fusion reaction products can be
used as propellant.)

In the case where f = 1 (matter/antimatter annihilation), the rel-
ativistic rocket equation becomes

   delta-U/c = sinh[(gexh eta/[eta + gexh - 1] *
                                         (Vexh/c) ln(mass ratio)]

In the simplistic antimatter-rocket case where eta = 1 (100 per-
cent conversion of reaction energy to exhaust kinetic energy),
the relativistic rocket equation reduces to

   delta-U/c = sinh[(Vexh/c) ln(mass ratio)]

in a form somewhat similar to the chemical rocket equation.
(Note that all velocities are non-dimensionalized now by dividing
them by c.)

I hope this properly expresses the shortcomings of using chemical-
rocket performance relations for fusion/antimatter rockets.

Rex

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: DotarSojat@aol.com
Cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, MLEN3097@peachnet.edu,
         kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Subject: Re: Physic help
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 14:22:56 -0500

At 2:42 PM 5/16/96, DotarSojat@aol.com wrote:
>To Kelly
>
>Beware of using chemical-rocket parameters for fusion/antimatter
>rockets.  The parameter to be most wary of is the specific im-
>pulse, "Isp."  Isp is the rocket-engine thrust per unit mass
>flow rate (out of the nozzle).
>
>We are interested in an equation that gives the velocity incre-
>ment, "delta-V," of the rocket stage in terms of the ratio of
>the initial mass of the stage to the final mass, the "mass
>ratio".  The equation is called the "rocket equation" in the West
>and the "Tsiolkovsky equation" in Russia (after the first person
>to derive it).  The depletion in mass (initial mass minus final
>mass) for a chemical rocket stage is solely propellant.  For a
>fusion/antimatter rocket, however, the mass depletion is the sum
>of the propellant mass (out of the "nozzle," or accelerator) and
>the mass converted to energy in the fusion or matter/antimatter-
>annihilation reaction.

I realize that with fusion or anti-matter reactions you lose a little of
the mass to energy.  But, since in the case of fusion, the fraction lost is
less than 1% of the total mass.  I assumed the equation would give
acceptable accuracy.  Since most of the reference examples I have, use
specific impulse and Exaust vel.  I tried to stick with them out of
familiarity.  You have to admit they are convenent terms.

I'm more concerned for the MAJOR differences Tim and I get when calculating
fuel mass ratios.  The fraction of a % of mass lost to energy conversion
doesn't seem to account for more than a tiny fraction of our 100 to 1 vs
150 to 1 mass ratio disagreement.  (I'm obviously just looking for rough
order of magnetude numbers at this stage.)


>For a chemical rocket stage, the parameter that links the delta-V
>with the function of the mass ratio (the natural log) is simply
>the exhaust velocity, Vexh, i.e.,
>
>           delta-V = Vexh ln(mass ratio)   .
>
>[Isp was invented, I believe, to allow English-system (foot-pound-
>second) engineers to talk about rocket performance with metric-
>system (meter-kilogram-second) engineers by "non-dimensionalizing"
>the exhaust velocity.  This was done by dividing it by the cons-
>tant gc, i.e.,
>
>            Vexh/gc = Isp    .
>
>This reduces the units to "seconds", which are common to both sys-
>tems.  The constant gc is only incidentally equal in value to the
>standard acceleration of gravity; it is properly referred to as
>the conversion factor from mass to force units, either 32.17405
>lbmass-ft/(sec^2-lbforce) or 9.80665 kgmass-m/(sec^2-kgforce).
>(To be totally correct, the units of Isp should be lbforce-sec/
>lbmass or kgforce-sec/kgmass, but the ratios lbforce/lbmass and
>kgforce/kgmass are usually just left out of both Isp and gc.)]

Hum, interesting bit of history.  ;)


>For a fusion/antimatter rocket, additional parameters that must be
>included in the rocket equation are the ratio of the fusion/anti-
>matter mass to the mass converted to reaction energy (Timothy's
>"f") and the efficiency of conversion of reaction energy to ex-
>haust kinetic energy (let's call it "eta").  Also, the velocity
>increment must be put into relativistic terms.  The relativistic
>fusion/antimatter rocket equation becomes much more complicated
>than the chemical rocket equation, i.e., the increment in apparent
>velocity is given by
>
>   delta-V/c = tanh[(gexh eta/[(eta) + f(gexh - 1)]) *
>                                         (Vexh/c) ln(mass ratio)]
>where
>        gexh = sqrt[1 - (Vexh/c)^2]
>
>or the increment in proper velocity is given by
>
>   delta-U/c = sinh[(gexh eta/[(eta) + f(gexh - 1)]) *
>                                         (Vexh/c) ln(mass ratio)]
>
>(Note: for fusion, i.e., f greater than 1, the (eta) term does
>not appear because some of the fusion reaction products can be
>used as propellant.)
>
>In the case where f = 1 (matter/antimatter annihilation), the rel-
>ativistic rocket equation becomes
>
>   delta-U/c = sinh[(gexh eta/[eta + gexh - 1] *
>                                         (Vexh/c) ln(mass ratio)]
>
>In the simplistic antimatter-rocket case where eta = 1 (100 per-
>cent conversion of reaction energy to exhaust kinetic energy),
>the relativistic rocket equation reduces to
>
>   delta-U/c = sinh[(Vexh/c) ln(mass ratio)]
>
>in a form somewhat similar to the chemical rocket equation.
>(Note that all velocities are non-dimensionalized now by dividing
>them by c.)
>
>I hope this properly expresses the shortcomings of using chemical-
>rocket performance relations for fusion/antimatter rockets.
>
>Rex

Nice equations, but a little much for use on my hand calculator.  ;)   Thou
I suppose I could fire up the free sudo-copy of Mathmatica that Apple now
gives away with its operating system.  If I load those equations in I
should get some nice graphs.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Fri May 17 06:59:29 GMT 1996
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	["326" "Thu" "16" "May" "1996" "23:31:42" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "23" "Physics help" "^From:" nil nil "5" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Physics help
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 23:31:42 +0100

Hi Kelly,

Rex letter made me look back at out letters from last week.

When I use the following numbers:

Vexh=0.0667c (2E7 m/s)
dV  =0.3c    (9E7 m/s)

and the classic rocket formula:

M=Exp[dV/Vexh]

I get:

M=90

and not the 148 (or 150) you seemed to get.

Is this the reason for the confusion that had arised?


Timothy

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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Physics help
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 08:42:57 -0500

At 11:31 PM 5/16/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>Hi Kelly,
>
>Rex letter made me look back at out letters from last week.
>
>When I use the following numbers:
>
>Vexh=0.0667c (2E7 m/s)
>dV  =0.3c    (9E7 m/s)
>
>and the classic rocket formula:
>
>M=Exp[dV/Vexh]
>
>I get:
>
>M=90
>
>and not the 148 (or 150) you seemed to get.
>
>Is this the reason for the confusion that had arised?
>
>
>Timothy

Well thats part of it.  It certainly doesn't give me a warm comfident
feeling when our numbers are that far apart!  Eiather we're talking about
something fundamentally different and don't realize it, one of us has a
blown calculator, or one of us is badly misappling some equation.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Physics help (I found it!)
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 09:37:28 -0500

I found it!!


>At 11:31 PM 5/16/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>>Hi Kelly,

>>Rex letter made me look back at out letters from last week.

>>When I use the following numbers:

>>Vexh=0.0667c (2E7 m/s)
>>dV =0.3c (9E7 m/s)

>>and the classic rocket formula:

>>M=Exp[dV/Vexh]

>>I get:

>>M=90

>>and not the 148 (or 150) you seemed to get.

>>Is this the reason for the confusion that had arised?


>>Timothy

>Well thats part of it. It certainly doesn't give me a warm comfident
>feeling when our numbers are that far apart! Eiather we're talking about
>something fundamentally different and don't realize it, one of us has a
>blown calculator, or one of us is badly misappling some equation.

>Kelly

Wait a minutte?!! The rocket equation (as cut from one of Rex's lates
E-mails) is:


Vend = the velocitie at the end of the acceleration burn or the Delta V in
our case.

Vexh = the exhaust velocity

M    = starship mass (= Mi initially; = Mbo at burnout)

Now from the rocket equation

Mi/Mbo = exp(Vend/Vexh)

And your numbers tim were:

dV = Vend =0.3c (9E7 m/s)
Vexh	=0.0667c (2E7 m/s)

Mi/Mbo = exp (9/2) = exp(4.5) = 90

I however wasn't computing a Vend of .3c.  I was computing to 1/3rd c, I.E.
10E7 m/s.

Mi/Mbo = exp (10/2) = exp(5) = 148

We were both talking about something fundamentally differnt, but didn't
know it!  The difference was all due to the slightly different Delta V.
The Exponential makes a hellish difference given even slight differnces in
the speed assumptions.

(See why I always want to see examples with numbers and units with your
equations Tim?)

So a 55 to 1 fuel ratio with a Vexh of 2E7 m/s:

55 = exp (?/2E7)

or

2e7 * Ln (55) = 80E6  = .267c

So we can still get a burn down from over 1/4th c with the same fuel ratio.
Giving a touch under 17 years for a flight time to Alpha C.  Much better
than I was afraid of.

:)


Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Physics help (I found it!)
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 00:01:12 +0100

Kelly wrote:
>>Well thats part of it. It certainly doesn't give me a warm comfident
>>feeling when our numbers are that far apart! Eiather we're talking about
>>something fundamentally different and don't realize it, one of us has a
>>blown calculator, or one of us is badly misappling some equation.

Was that you?

>We were both talking about something fundamentally differnt, but didn't
>know it!  The difference was all due to the slightly different Delta V.
>The Exponential makes a hellish difference given even slight differnces in
>the speed assumptions.
>
>(See why I always want to see examples with numbers and units with your
>equations Tim?)

The numbers where there before, but apparently they did not help much.

>So a 55 to 1 fuel ratio with a Vexh of 2E7 m/s:
>
>55 = exp (?/2E7)
>
>or
>
>2e7 * Ln (55) = 80E6  = .267c
>
>So we can still get a burn down from over 1/4th c with the same fuel ratio.
>Giving a touch under 17 years for a flight time to Alpha C.  Much better
>than I was afraid of.

That mass ratio is only for acceleration OR deceleration, if you want to do
both you need to square that mass ratio. (55^2=3025)

Isn't AC a bit too close?


Timothy

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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Subject: Re: Physics help (I found it!)
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 01:06:00 -0400

>>So we can still get a burn down from over 1/4th c with the same fuel ratio.
>>Giving a touch under 17 years for a flight time to Alpha C.  Much better
>>than I was afraid of.

> That mass ratio is only for acceleration OR deceleration, 
> if you want to do both you need to square that mass ratio. 
> (55^2=3025)

No, my Explorer design doesn't use on board fuel for accell out of the sol
system, or return decel.  A bigger problem Is I forgot the 2e7 exaust
velocity was for a He3 system which obviously isn't very feasable for 17
years of onboard storage.  (Liquid helium is incredibly good at geting out of
sealed containers.)  I havent bothered to try to figure out the numbers for
Li6 fueled system yet.  But I remembered they sounded bad.

> Isn't AC a bit too close?

If it would take over 17 years to get to, I'ld say its about as far as we'ld
go.

Kelly

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Physics help (I found it!)
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 23:55:02 +0100

>No, my Explorer design doesn't use on board fuel for accell out of the sol
>system, or return decel.  A bigger problem Is I forgot the 2e7 exaust
>velocity was for a He3 system which obviously isn't very feasable for 17
>years of onboard storage.  (Liquid helium is incredibly good at geting out of
>sealed containers.)  I havent bothered to try to figure out the numbers for
>Li6 fueled system yet.  But I remembered they sounded bad.

Keep in mind that the temperature where Helium becomes fluid and the
temperature where Helium becomes superfluid are not the same, there is a
difference of about 2 degrees between them.

Tim

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
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        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Physics help (I found it!)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 23:51:17 +0100

Kevin:
>Timothy:
>> Kelly:
>>>No, my Explorer design doesn't use on board fuel for accell out of the sol
>>>system, or return decel.  A bigger problem Is I forgot the 2e7 exaust
>>>velocity was for a He3 system which obviously isn't very feasable for 17
>>>years of onboard storage.  (Liquid helium is incredibly good at geting out of
>>>sealed containers.)  I havent bothered to try to figure out the numbers for
>>>Li6 fueled system yet.  But I remembered they sounded bad.
>> 
>>Keep in mind that the temperature where Helium becomes fluid and the
>>temperature where Helium becomes superfluid are not the same, there is a
>>difference of about 2 degrees between them.
>
>I think maybe Kelly was refering to the half-life of tritium, rather than the 
>superfluid properties.

Why then is he worring about liquid Helium being incredibly good at getting
out of sealed containers?

Tim

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Physics help (I found it!)
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 13:25:05 -0500

At 11:51 PM 5/20/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>Kevin:
>>Timothy:
>>> Kelly:
>>>>No, my Explorer design doesn't use on board fuel for accell out of the sol
>>>>system, or return decel.  A bigger problem Is I forgot the 2e7 exaust
>>>>velocity was for a He3 system which obviously isn't very feasable for 17
>>>>years of onboard storage.  (Liquid helium is incredibly good at geting
>>>>out of
>>>>sealed containers.)  I havent bothered to try to figure out the numbers for
>>>>Li6 fueled system yet.  But I remembered they sounded bad.
>>>
>>>Keep in mind that the temperature where Helium becomes fluid and the
>>>temperature where Helium becomes superfluid are not the same, there is a
>>>difference of about 2 degrees between them.
>>
>>I think maybe Kelly was refering to the half-life of tritium, rather than the
>>superfluid properties.
>
>Why then is he worring about liquid Helium being incredibly good at getting
>out of sealed containers?
>
>Tim

No, I was just worried about keeping the stuff in the tanks for 20 years,
and of course the weighnt of the tank itself.  One distinct advantage of
lithium is that it is a solid metal at room temp.  So It doesn't boil off
or need a tank.  However since Li produces about 75% of the power per Kg
(1.596 E14 vs 2.059 E14).  This would obviously take a big hit out of the
spec impulse.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: sl0c8@cc.usu.edu
cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, KellySt@aol.com,
        kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
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Subject: Re: Web docs on space and starflightI
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 23:48:18 -0400

X-From: sl0c8@cc.usu.edu (Brandon Neill)

To: KellySt@aol.com (Kelly Starks)



> On Tue, 16 Apr 1996, Kelly Starks wrote:

> > Hi,
> > Like your web page, though its a bit under constructed.
> > Yeah, I've been planning to work more on it, but haven't 
> > had time --

> 
> > Thought you might be interested in some stuff I've 
> > worked up for a StarShip design club I'm in.  (Yes we're 
> > for real, no I'm not talking star trek!)

> I briefly checked out the pages, looks cool, is this a 
> local club or can anyone join?  Where do you have the 
> discussions, on the internet or ?  I don't know if you 
> looked at my homepage or just the Space pages, but 
> I'm an Aerospace Engineering major so I think I might 
> be able to help, or at least learn.  Let me know. 

> Brandon
--------
> neill@foda.math.usu.edu              "I think therefore I am dangerous"
> http://ashton.lib.dixie.edu/~bneill


Hi,
We used to have a weekly newsletter to subscribers, but thats been off line
for a while.  At the moment a few of us just cross E-mail one another with
ideas.  I CC'ed all of us in this message, so you now have the list.

Mail load ranges from a couple dozen a day, to a handfull a week (depends
about what we think of).  Also there is our old WEB site on the SunSite
server.  (I'll forward that address asap.)  It holds back copies of the
newsletters and stuff.

We range from ex NASA contractors to students to .. well you can guess.  I'ld
forward our last could of messages, but I just flushed.  I'll see what I cal
recover from the trash.  You can introduce yourself and others can do the
same when they comment.

Welcome to the group.  Ask, or attack, anything you like.  Hope you like it.

Kelly Starks

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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
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Cc: zkulpa
Subject: Re: I am on vacation (at last!)
Date: Sun, 26 May 96 18:13:23 +0200

> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Tue May 21 20:52:37 1996
> 
> Man you are into serious vactions!  You must be an academic.  Have fun.
> With luck I'll have an answer and new job by then.
> 
> At 8:31 PM 5/21/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
> >Your mail regarding "Re: Physics help (I found it!)" will be read when I
> >return,
> >that is, some day in October.
> >
> >Stay calm, though:
> >don't do today anything you can postpone for tomorrow...
> >
> >Yours,  -- Zenon Kulpa
> 
Thanks, Kelly...;-)

However, as I advised - stay calm, all of the mini-LIT...
Probably due to a certain haste, I have mixed up the "vacation" messages -
the proper one should be:

> Subject:  I am on the GKPO'96 Conference this week
> Precedence: junk
> 
> Your mail regarding "$SUBJECT" will be read when I return, 
> that is, some day starting from May 27...
> 
> Stay calm, though: 
> don't do today anything you can postpone for tomorrow...
> 
> Yours,  -- Zenon Kulpa
>
So - I am back already, sorry...
Though, fortunately ;-)), I am still very busy,
so I will not be too active on the list.

Cheers,

-- Zenon

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
         101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
         zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re: I am on vacation (at last!)
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 08:06:17 -0500

At 6:13 PM 5/26/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Tue May 21 20:52:37 1996
>>
>> Man you are into serious vactions!  You must be an academic.  Have fun.
>> With luck I'll have an answer and new job by then.
>>
>> At 8:31 PM 5/21/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> >Your mail regarding "Re: Physics help (I found it!)" will be read when I
>> >return,
>> >that is, some day in October.
>> >
>> >Stay calm, though:
>> >don't do today anything you can postpone for tomorrow...
>> >
>> >Yours,  -- Zenon Kulpa
>>
>Thanks, Kelly...;-)
>
>However, as I advised - stay calm, all of the mini-LIT...
>Probably due to a certain haste, I have mixed up the "vacation" messages -

Probably your subconsious trying to get you to take a LONG vacation. ;)

>the proper one should be:
>
>> Subject:  I am on the GKPO'96 Conference this week
>> Precedence: junk
>>
>> Your mail regarding "$SUBJECT" will be read when I return,
>> that is, some day starting from May 27...
>>
>> Stay calm, though:
>> don't do today anything you can postpone for tomorrow...
>>
>> Yours,  -- Zenon Kulpa
>>
>So - I am back already, sorry...
>Though, fortunately ;-)), I am still very busy,
>so I will not be too active on the list.
>
>Cheers,
>
>-- Zenon

Sure sure sure, leting a little thing like life get in the way of your
hobies.  ;)

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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Subject: more physics (short)
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 13:00:51 -0500

Sorry I was doing a bit more physics calculations for the Web pages and ran
into a problem.  So if you can verify my new numbers vs the old ones I'ld
appreciate it.

Kelly


=======================================================================
Using the old equation p=1/2 M V^2  we get the
power (in watts) = 1/2 Mass (in Kg) * (exaust velocity in meters/sec)^2

Given the fuel numbers show watts per Kg the equation shuffels around to:

Exaust velocity (in Meters per secound) =sqrt (2 * Power)

>> Did I mess this up?  Yes I'm ignoring relativistic <<


Fuel --> Exhaust        Watts /
                        kg

p + 11B --> 3 4He       6.926 E13      11,800,000 m/s
De + 3He --> 4He + p    3.505 E14      26,500,000 m/s
                                                                            *
6Li + 6Li --> 3 4He
 (Combined)             1.596 E14      17,800,000 m/s
                                                                            **
 3He + 3He --> 4He + 2 p
                        2.059 E14       20,300,000 M/s
                                                                            ***


This all seems pretty straight forward, but then I noticed we had
previously come up with exaust velopcities of:


================================================================
Fuel type                   Exhaust speed            Specific Impulse
                                                                    (Isp)
p + 11B --> 3 4He          14,000,000 M/sec     1,400,000.  seconds

De + 3He --> 4He + p

 6Li + 6Li --> 3 4He       21,000,000 M/sec     2,100,000.  seconds

 3He + 3He --> 4He + 2 p   24,000,000 M/sec     2,400,000.  seconds




So which numbers are corect, the first group or secound?

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
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Cc: KrysWalker@aol.com
Subject: To "pluck" you from your mid-week blues
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 13:38:34 -0500

 . . .
_______________________________________________________________________________

> So there's this fella with a parrot. And this parrot swears like a sailor,

> I mean he's a pistol. He can swear for five minutes straight without
> repeating himself. Trouble is, the guy who owns him is a quiet,
> conservative type, and this bird's foul mouth is driving him crazy.
>
> One day, it gets to be too much, so the guy grabs the bird by the throat,
> shakes him really hard, and yells, "QUIT IT!"  But this just makes the
bird
> mad and he swears more than ever.  Then the guy gets mad and says,
> "OK for you." and locks the bird in a kitchen cabinet.  This really
> aggravates the bird and he claws and scratches, and when the guy
> finally lets him out, the bird cuts loose with a stream of vulgarities
that would make a veteran sailor blush.
>
> At that point, the guy is so mad that he throws the bird into the freezer.

> For the first few seconds there is a terrible din. The bird kicks and
claws and thrashes. Then it suddenly gets _very_ quiet.
>
> At first the guy just waits, but then he starts to think that the bird may

> be hurt. After a couple of minutes of silence, he's so worried that he
> opens up the freezer door. The bird calmly climbs onto the man's
> outstretched arm and says, "Awfully sorry about the trouble I gave you.
> I'll do my best to improve my vocabulary from now on." The man is
> astounded. He can't understand the transformation that has come over the
> parrot.  Then the parrot says, "By the way, what did the chicken do?"


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: Physics question 2
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 13:57:31 -0500

In case your woundering, the procedure I used to conver MeV to Watts/kg was:


Power is given in Million electron volts (MeV). An electron volt is equal
to 1.60219 E-19 Joule, and a Joule /
sec is equal to a Watt. Mass in this case is the number of Protons and
neutrons involved in the reaction. They
each weigh about 1.673 E-27 kg. So since p + 11B has 12 P's and N's per
8.68 MeV reaction. (Note I'm
ignoring electrons. Life's to short, they're too light).


          8.7 MeV
          = 8.7 E6 eV  per  12 * 1.673 E-27 kg
          = 4.324 E32 eV  per  / kg
          = 6.926 E13 watts / kg     (1 ev/second = 1.60219 E-19
Joule / sec)
                                             1 j/s = Watt




Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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	["6962" "Sun" "2" "June" "1996" "18:37:38" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "159" "Re: PROBLEMS WHEN USING A ELECTROMAGNETIC BEAM TO PROPELL A STARSHIP" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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Subject: Re: PROBLEMS WHEN USING A ELECTROMAGNETIC BEAM TO PROPELL A STARSHIP
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 18:37:38 +0100

Kevin, thanks for your comments, I've a few questions regarding your
comments, they include phased arrays, efficiency and diffraction. Well, read
on and you'll see them.

Timothy



>Seems objective enough.  One main point though, I would use a MASER, not a
>laser while this increases the cost for the beaming station (conversion of
>sunlight into electricity ~ 10%)  Conversion of electircity into microwaves
>and microwaves into electricity are both about 90%.  Use of Masers, allows
>phased array solutions.

I tried to keep it in the middle (laser or maser), at some places I even
used EM-beams. I don't understand the explanation with your numbers above:
You say the cost of a beaming station increases because the conversion from
sunlight into electricity is ~ 10%, but masers don't need electricity too?
I can understand that phasing is easier with longer wavelengths, so I will
mention that somewhere in a discussion of what kind of EM-radiation to use.
How did you get the numbers of 90%, I'd like to add a source.

>> 1 The beaming station very likely needs to be build on a moving/rotating
>> object like a planet, moon or asteroid.
>
>possible solutions: 1) Multiply the number of separate beaming stations, thus, 
>while some small number might be deviating, most will be on track most of the 
>time.  2) use phased array antenna to increase response time of the beam.

I'm not sure about (1), because a beaming station already consists of many
smaller masers. Isn't this the same as increasing the size of the beam?

About (2) I don't understand how changing phase can deviate the direction of
the beam slightly. Lee already told me about it, but I don't understand what
physical phenomenon is behind it (is it interference?). Is there anyone who
can help me here?

>> 2 Staying inside the beam may not be that easy if the beam is narrow.
>
>Possible solution, slight tilting of the sail at the ship's end...

Yeps, forgot that one.

>> 3 A single laser/maser of many kilometres wide is unlikely to be build,
>> instead many smaller lasers will be used. It may be necessary to get them
>> all lined up and all in phase so that interference is decreased. All lasers
>> need to be powered and controlled separately.
>
>solution: Phased array 

I think I was seeing a phased array as a problem on itself here.

>> 4 Small apertures and long wavelengths of the lasers cause widening of the
>> beam, this is a well known effect. In normal situations a laser may look
>> like a point but over distances of several lightyears this widening may
>> become problematic.
>
>Solution:  Phased array.  By conecting two transmitters many hundreds of
>kilometers apart, one can simulate a single arperature with the same baseline.

I cannot believe this is completely true. More (phased) sources can indeed
decrease diffraction effects, but does one extra source have so much effect?
Does anyone know this for certain by head? Otherwise I'd need to calculate
it myself (which I don't like at the moment).

>> 6
>
>efficiency of masers is high?  Unknown by me.  I do know that microwave
>generation is efficient, but masers may not be.  Anyone have any data?

Yes, I don't know very well either, the only number I could find this far
was that of 1% but that book was already old. It would be nice to have
several numbers for varying wavelengths.

>A reason to use a Lineac decell stage instead of a retro mirror.

Yes, we know the retro mirror had many difficulties, but the idea is to big
to leave out.

>> 9 Red shift is especially important when the starship reaches relativistic
>> velocities, it causes that the momentum transfer of the photons decreases
>> and therefore decreases the efficiency.
>
>But the time dialation on the ship cancels this effect, does it not?
>That is to say that while the ship is recieving 1/7 (@ .99 C) of the energy,
>it also has 7 times more time to collect that energy (from the viewpoint of 
>the ship)

Yes that is true, but it still means that relative to Earth the efficiency
decreases. Since all energy has to come from Earth (and they have to pay for
it) that is the most important reference point. The intensity of the beam is
probably not constant anyway, I assume that when the ship is farther away
from the source, the losses are greater and the intensity needs to be increased.

>> A beaming station should be visualized as a large array (100-1000? square
>> kilometres) of large highly accurate powerful lasers and a lot of fusion
>> reactors.
>
>or square mega-meters of Solar cells

Yes, but that is another chapter.

>> 12a Especially when the accuracy mentioned in 1 and 2 is low, the size of
>> the sail may be big, it needs to have the strength to pull or push a
>> starship. Large sails may become very heavy (some scenarios predict many
>> factors of 10 heavier as the ship itself).
>
>I thought I covered this problem already.  The use of multiple attachment
>points, as many as one every 10 meters, for the  sail (As opposed to the
>circumfrence only) reduces the pull to a very small amount.

Yes, I know, but that doesn't decrease the weight of the sail, which may
become a crucial point in the whole design. I'll add this in the solution
section.

>>14.
>communication to earth should use another portion of the EM spectrum, like the
>visible portion perhaps.

Yes, but where do you put the sending/receiving antenna? If they are inside
the beam they are likely to be ionized.

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
 Solutions:

>> 4 Increasing aperture and/or decreasing wavelength (eg. use IR or gamma
>> radiation)
>
>I think increasing the arperature will be far more productive than
shortening the 
>wavelength.

Maybe both can add their share, also see the comment above (by problem 4).

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Advantages:

>> 2 The ship doesn't need to carry an engine (this may not be true for the
>> deceleration phase). This may increase the simplicity of the ship and thus
>> the reliability. This implies that less personnel may be needed.
>
>3) Ship can accelerate continously, taking advantage of the time dialation
>effect. and providing the crew with a near normal gravity environment

Are other designs like fusion engines not able to do this? (in theory) The
advantages of time dilations are not clear to me (see also 9)

>4) the beaming array only needs to be on for about two years.  then it can be
>used to send out other ships, or the energy could be used to power mining
>operations in the trans astreroid portion of our own system.

I wonder if the mining will be cost effective if that much energy is needed.
But I will mention the possible re-use effect.

>5) while the return system will be costly, once built, it will allow much
>smaller ships to travel back and forth between the two systems.

Yes, this is an advantage that may simplify futere missions significantly.


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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: more physics (short)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 18:37:46 +0100

>I went over the Bussard paper and found 14E6 as the upper exaust vel for p
>+ 11B.  Which obviously isn't what I'm getting.  Eiather I miscalculated
>the watts per Kg (I sent my equations for that in another letter) or I
>misread Bussards paper.  (I suppose I could write him.)  I'ld hate to write
>off about 15% of spec impulse if I didn't need to.  (See table below.)

>If you know how to get the exaust speed from Mev numbers let me know.  I'm
>sure those numbers from the papers are correct.

Watch carefully:

The reaction as found in my tables book:

H + 11B --> 3 4He + 8.7 MeV

Let's assume energy conversion is 100% and ALL reaction products will be
accelerated in the 100% effective lineac.

First turn MeV in to Joules:

8.7 MeV = 8.7E6 * 1.602E-19 = 1.394E-12 Joule

Then determine the weight of the particles in kg:

H + 11B is approx 12 u (u=atomic mass unit)

12 u = 12 * 1.661E-27 = 1.993E-26 Kg

Thus the energy per kg is:

1.394E-12 / 1.993E-26 = 6.995E13 J/Kg

(Don't use much more significant numbers, if you do use them you need to
define some things more accurate and cannot simply think that 11 H weighs as
much as 11B.)

Using E=0.5 m v^2 I still get v=11.8E6 m/s, so I really wonder how Bussard
can get a higher velocity, unless he dumps some of the reaction mass instead
of accelerating it.

>I was working up the following table of the fuel mass ratios needed to get
>to or from certain speeds given the exaust velocities.
>
>NEW numbers
>
>Fuel --> Exhaust
>Vexh                75E6m/s     100 E6m/s  125 E6m/s 150 E6m/s
>
>p + 11B --> 3 4He
>  11,800,000 m/s       576.0     4,790.0    39,900    332,000
>
>6Li + 6Li --> 3 4He
> (Combined)
>  17,800,000 m/s        67.6       275.0     1,120      4,570
>
>3He + 3He --> 4He + 2 p
> 20,300,000 M/s         42.5       138.0       472      1,620
>
>De + 3He --> 4He + p
>  26,500,000 m/s        16.9        43.5       112        287

Of course ;) I get completly different numbers (at least for higher Vend)

  674  2,680  82,000  1,200,000
   73    181   1,728     10,000
   44     97     708      3,377
   18     34     154        509

I assume this time relativistics is the origin (for 0.5c gamma=1.15 which
means its not almost equal to 1 anymore) for our differences

>Amazing how touchy the fuel ratios are to changes in exaust vel/specific
>impulse.  Look at the difference between 6Li + 6Li and 3He + 3He!  ;)

Well yes, that is because of the energy per kilogram of fuel. Which is 3
times higher for 3He + 3He. (This is what my "magic" number f says)


Timothy

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To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
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         David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: PROBLEMS WHEN USING A ELECTROMAGNETIC BEAM TO PROPELL A STARSHIP
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 23:20:39 -0400

Not a bad summary Tim.  ;)  We'll have to work that into the web site (when
we get one).  I've been thinking of seting it up on my AOL account space
since Daves always busy, but it might be to big for my account limits.

Kelly.

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: more physics (short)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 08:07:55 -0500

At 6:37 PM 6/2/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>>I went over the Bussard paper and found 14E6 as the upper exaust vel for p
>>+ 11B.  Which obviously isn't what I'm getting.  Eiather I miscalculated
>>the watts per Kg (I sent my equations for that in another letter) or I
>>misread Bussards paper.  (I suppose I could write him.)  I'ld hate to write
>>off about 15% of spec impulse if I didn't need to.  (See table below.)
>
>>If you know how to get the exaust speed from Mev numbers let me know.  I'm
>>sure those numbers from the papers are correct.
>
>Watch carefully:
>
>The reaction as found in my tables book:
>
>H + 11B --> 3 4He + 8.7 MeV
>
>Let's assume energy conversion is 100% and ALL reaction products will be
>accelerated in the 100% effective lineac.
>
>First turn MeV in to Joules:
>
>8.7 MeV = 8.7E6 * 1.602E-19 = 1.394E-12 Joule
>
>Then determine the weight of the particles in kg:
>
>H + 11B is approx 12 u (u=atomic mass unit)
>
>12 u = 12 * 1.661E-27 = 1.993E-26 Kg
>
>Thus the energy per kg is:
>
>1.394E-12 / 1.993E-26 = 6.995E13 J/Kg

So we used the same numbers (thou in a different order) and got about the
same number.

One suprize, I had that the mass of Protons and neutrons as about 1.673
E-27 kg, where you have 1.661E-27.  Is that a typo?  We came up with the
same velocity, which seems odd if we were using a different constant.

Eiather way (unless Rex has an alternate opinion) it looks like the lower
numbers I just computed are the ones to use.



>
>(Don't use much more significant numbers, if you do use them you need to
>define some things more accurate and cannot simply think that 11 H weighs as
>much as 11B.)
>
>Using E=0.5 m v^2 I still get v=11.8E6 m/s, so I really wonder how Bussard
>can get a higher velocity, unless he dumps some of the reaction mass instead
>of accelerating it.

No the numbers were not based on an engineering output.  That was supposed
to be the direct output from the reactions.  Could be I misread something
and the 14E6 number was for something else (though I can't see what).

>>I was working up the following table of the fuel mass ratios needed to get
>>to or from certain speeds given the exaust velocities.
>>
>>NEW numbers
>>
>>Fuel --> Exhaust
>>Vexh                75E6m/s     100 E6m/s  125 E6m/s 150 E6m/s
>>
>>p + 11B --> 3 4He
>>  11,800,000 m/s       576.0     4,790.0    39,900    332,000
>>
>>6Li + 6Li --> 3 4He
>> (Combined)
>>  17,800,000 m/s        67.6       275.0     1,120      4,570
>>
>>3He + 3He --> 4He + 2 p
>> 20,300,000 M/s         42.5       138.0       472      1,620
>>
>>De + 3He --> 4He + p
>>  26,500,000 m/s        16.9        43.5       112        287
>
>Of course ;) I get completly different numbers (at least for higher Vend)
>
>  674  2,680  82,000  1,200,000
>   73    181   1,728     10,000
>   44     97     708      3,377
>   18     34     154        509
>
>I assume this time relativistics is the origin (for 0.5c gamma=1.15 which
>means its not almost equal to 1 anymore) for our differences

??
Why are you geting larger (often much larger) numbers for 75E6m/s, 125
E6m/s, and 150 E6m/s, but smaller for 100 E6m/s?  Also the deltas don't
seem even.  Hum.  I suppose I should rerun my numbers with relativistic
equations.  With our luck I'll come up with a third set of numbers.

Your probably right about my non-relativistic numbers geting soft a .5c
thou.  I normally wouldn't have pushed them that far.  But De + 3He was
looking suprizingly good.

>>Amazing how touchy the fuel ratios are to changes in exaust vel/specific
>>impulse.  Look at the difference between 6Li + 6Li and 3He + 3He!  ;)
>
>Well yes, that is because of the energy per kilogram of fuel. Which is 3
>times higher for 3He + 3He. (This is what my "magic" number f says)
>
>
>Timothy

Pity you gave no way to use you magic number.  (Like the value for given
fuels?)  Also the F number table didn't give the numbers for the fuels,
which naturally  didn't have even F numbers.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: more physics (short)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:50:47 -0500


Ok, I can't find a copy of the rocket equation set up for relitivistic
speeds.  Could someone forward a copy to me.

Oh, should the exaust velocity be considered in ship time or 'real' time?

Kelly



At 6:37 PM 6/2/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>>I went over the Bussard paper and found 14E6 as the upper exaust vel for p
>>+ 11B.  Which obviously isn't what I'm getting.  Eiather I miscalculated
>>the watts per Kg (I sent my equations for that in another letter) or I
>>misread Bussards paper.  (I suppose I could write him.)  I'ld hate to write
>>off about 15% of spec impulse if I didn't need to.  (See table below.)
>
>>If you know how to get the exaust speed from Mev numbers let me know.  I'm
>>sure those numbers from the papers are correct.
>
>Watch carefully:
>
>The reaction as found in my tables book:
>
>H + 11B --> 3 4He + 8.7 MeV
>
>Let's assume energy conversion is 100% and ALL reaction products will be
>accelerated in the 100% effective lineac.
>
>First turn MeV in to Joules:
>
>8.7 MeV = 8.7E6 * 1.602E-19 = 1.394E-12 Joule
>
>Then determine the weight of the particles in kg:
>
>H + 11B is approx 12 u (u=atomic mass unit)
>
>12 u = 12 * 1.661E-27 = 1.993E-26 Kg
>
>Thus the energy per kg is:
>
>1.394E-12 / 1.993E-26 = 6.995E13 J/Kg
>
>(Don't use much more significant numbers, if you do use them you need to
>define some things more accurate and cannot simply think that 11 H weighs as
>much as 11B.)
>
>Using E=0.5 m v^2 I still get v=11.8E6 m/s, so I really wonder how Bussard
>can get a higher velocity, unless he dumps some of the reaction mass instead
>of accelerating it.
>
>>I was working up the following table of the fuel mass ratios needed to get
>>to or from certain speeds given the exaust velocities.
>>
>>NEW numbers
>>
>>Fuel --> Exhaust
>>Vexh                75E6m/s     100 E6m/s  125 E6m/s 150 E6m/s
>>
>>p + 11B --> 3 4He
>>  11,800,000 m/s       576.0     4,790.0    39,900    332,000
>>
>>6Li + 6Li --> 3 4He
>> (Combined)
>>  17,800,000 m/s        67.6       275.0     1,120      4,570
>>
>>3He + 3He --> 4He + 2 p
>> 20,300,000 M/s         42.5       138.0       472      1,620
>>
>>De + 3He --> 4He + p
>>  26,500,000 m/s        16.9        43.5       112        287
>
>Of course ;) I get completly different numbers (at least for higher Vend)
>
>  674  2,680  82,000  1,200,000
>   73    181   1,728     10,000
>   44     97     708      3,377
>   18     34     154        509
>
>I assume this time relativistics is the origin (for 0.5c gamma=1.15 which
>means its not almost equal to 1 anymore) for our differences
>
>>Amazing how touchy the fuel ratios are to changes in exaust vel/specific
>>impulse.  Look at the difference between 6Li + 6Li and 3He + 3He!  ;)
>
>Well yes, that is because of the energy per kilogram of fuel. Which is 3
>times higher for 3He + 3He. (This is what my "magic" number f says)
>
>
>Timothy


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: more physics (short)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 00:59:00 +0100

>>Thus the energy per kg is:
>>
>>1.394E-12 / 1.993E-26 = 6.995E13 J/Kg
>
>So we used the same numbers (thou in a different order) and got about the
>same number.

I guess so.

>One suprize, I had that the mass of Protons and neutrons as about 1.673
>E-27 kg, where you have 1.661E-27.  Is that a typo?  We came up with the
>same velocity, which seems odd if we were using a different constant.

I used the definition for 'u', which finds it origin in the mass of a Carbon
12 atom. The weight of 12C is defined exactly 12*u. A single proton or
neutron is heavier than the protons and neutrons in a atom-core of multiple
nuclei (hence fusion frees energy).

But like I said before, the accuracy of this number only makes sense if you
know the (nearly) exact numbers of atom-masses.

>>(Don't use much more significant numbers, if you do use them you need to
>>define some things more accurate and cannot simply think that 11 H weighs as
>>much as 11B.)
>>
>>Using E=0.5 m v^2 I still get v=11.8E6 m/s, so I really wonder how Bussard
>>can get a higher velocity, unless he dumps some of the reaction mass instead
>>of accelerating it.
>
>No the numbers were not based on an engineering output.  That was supposed
>to be the direct output from the reactions.  Could be I misread something
>and the 14E6 number was for something else (though I can't see what).

I don't know, but I've been discussing this with Rex lately and he thinks
that the efficiency of a DIRECT fusion engine may be low. With direct I mean
that one doesn't convert the kinetic energy of the reaction products to
electricity.

>>I assume this time relativistics is the origin (for 0.5c gamma=1.15 which
>>means its not almost equal to 1 anymore) for our differences
>
>??
>Why are you geting larger (often much larger) numbers for 75E6m/s, 125
>E6m/s, and 150 E6m/s, but smaller for 100 E6m/s?  Also the deltas don't
>seem even.  Hum.  I suppose I should rerun my numbers with relativistic
>equations.  With our luck I'll come up with a third set of numbers.

I think the deltas are exponential, this causes rapid deviations when one
neglects higher terms (ie. use classical instead of relativistic formulas)
I believe the relativistic rocket equation is:

M=Mo Exp[Vend/(g Vexh)]  where g=1/Sqrt[1-Vexh^2/c^2]

(Vexh is relative to the ship)

>Pity you gave no way to use you magic number.  (Like the value for given
>fuels?)  Also the F number table didn't give the numbers for the fuels,
>which naturally  didn't have even F numbers.

Well simply devide c^2 (9E16) by the J/kg numbers (eg. 9E16/6.995E13=1287)
Compared to 257 for the best fusion fuel we have come up with.

Somewhere in my document there are a few fusion reactions with f, Mev and J/kg.

Here is something that looks like it:

                                           J/kg     f
2H  +  3He  ->   4He +   1H  + 18.3 MeV  3.51E14   257
2H  +  3H   ->   4He +    n  + 17.6 MeV  3.38E14   267
3He +  3He  ->   4He + 2 1H  + 12.9 MeV  2.06E14   437
6Li +  6Li  -> 3 4He         + 20.0 Mev  1.60E14   564  (Combined)
3He +  6Li  -> 2 4He +   1H  + 16.0 MeV  1.28E14   704
1H  +  6Li  ->   4He +   3He +  4.0 MeV  5.47E13  1645
1H  + 11B   -> 3 4He         +  8.7 Mev  6.99E13  1287


Timothy


P.S. To Kevin, I'm working on your latest letter...

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Correction
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 11:26:29 +0100

Hi Kelly,

After having stared at it for half an hour I typed that relativisitic rocket
equation. Now I know why I couldn't believe its simplicity.
This morning I still was thinking about it and suddenly I knew what I had
done wrong, well not wrong, but the formula is to no use for you, since it
only takes into account the relativistic exhaust speed and not the
relativistic ship (Vend) speed. Since in your calculations Vexh is hardly
relativistic the formula is completely useless.
To derive the right equation, would take a while, maybe Rex has it by hand?

CU, Timothy


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: more physics (short)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 07:59:26 -0500

At 12:59 AM 6/4/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>>>Thus the energy per kg is:
>>>
>>>1.394E-12 / 1.993E-26 = 6.995E13 J/Kg
>>
>>So we used the same numbers (thou in a different order) and got about the
>>same number.
>
>I guess so.
>
>>One suprize, I had that the mass of Protons and neutrons as about 1.673
>>E-27 kg, where you have 1.661E-27.  Is that a typo?  We came up with the
>>same velocity, which seems odd if we were using a different constant.
>
>I used the definition for 'u', which finds it origin in the mass of a Carbon
>12 atom. The weight of 12C is defined exactly 12*u. A single proton or
>neutron is heavier than the protons and neutrons in a atom-core of multiple
>nuclei (hence fusion frees energy).
>
>But like I said before, the accuracy of this number only makes sense if you
>know the (nearly) exact numbers of atom-masses.

Well eiather way I can't remember where I got  my atomic mass constant
from.  Eiather one seems to get similar numbers, so its probably not a
biggy.

>>>(Don't use much more significant numbers, if you do use them you need to
>>>define some things more accurate and cannot simply think that 11 H weighs as
>>>much as 11B.)
>>>
>>>Using E=0.5 m v^2 I still get v=11.8E6 m/s, so I really wonder how Bussard
>>>can get a higher velocity, unless he dumps some of the reaction mass instead
>>>of accelerating it.
>>
>>No the numbers were not based on an engineering output.  That was supposed
>>to be the direct output from the reactions.  Could be I misread something
>>and the 14E6 number was for something else (though I can't see what).
>
>I don't know, but I've been discussing this with Rex lately and he thinks
>that the efficiency of a DIRECT fusion engine may be low. With direct I mean
>that one doesn't convert the kinetic energy of the reaction products to
>electricity.

Why?  The velocities seem to be similar to the 'optimum' velocities in your
table.  I thought you figured that by the time you converted the particals
momentum to elec, and then convert that elec back to the exaust velocity of
a mass it would all come out even?  (Give or take a lot of tonage of power
equipment.)

Please CC me if you have anything.

>>>I assume this time relativistics is the origin (for 0.5c gamma=1.15 which
>>>means its not almost equal to 1 anymore) for our differences
>>
>>??
>>Why are you geting larger (often much larger) numbers for 75E6m/s, 125
>>E6m/s, and 150 E6m/s, but smaller for 100 E6m/s?  Also the deltas don't
>>seem even.  Hum.  I suppose I should rerun my numbers with relativistic
>>equations.  With our luck I'll come up with a third set of numbers.
>
>I think the deltas are exponential, this causes rapid deviations when one
>neglects higher terms (ie. use classical instead of relativistic formulas)
>I believe the relativistic rocket equation is:
>
>M=Mo Exp[Vend/(g Vexh)]  where g=1/Sqrt[1-Vexh^2/c^2]
>
>(Vexh is relative to the ship)

Thanks for the equation.  As to my question about why are you geting larger
numbers for 75E6m/s, 125 E6m/s, and 150 E6m/s, but smaller for 100 E6m/s?
My guess would be you calculated for .3c not 1/3rd c again.

>>Pity you gave no way to use you magic number.  (Like the value for given
>>fuels?)  Also the F number table didn't give the numbers for the fuels,
>>which naturally  didn't have even F numbers.
>
>Well simply devide c^2 (9E16) by the J/kg numbers (eg. 9E16/6.995E13=1287)
>Compared to 257 for the best fusion fuel we have come up with.

Best is of course a relative term, and so obviously is the term simple.  ;)

>Somewhere in my document there are a few fusion reactions with f, Mev and J/kg.
>
>Here is something that looks like it:
>
>                                           J/kg     f
>2H  +  3He  ->   4He +   1H  + 18.3 MeV  3.51E14   257
>2H  +  3H   ->   4He +    n  + 17.6 MeV  3.38E14   267
>3He +  3He  ->   4He + 2 1H  + 12.9 MeV  2.06E14   437
>6Li +  6Li  -> 3 4He         + 20.0 Mev  1.60E14   564  (Combined)
>3He +  6Li  -> 2 4He +   1H  + 16.0 MeV  1.28E14   704
>1H  +  6Li  ->   4He +   3He +  4.0 MeV  5.47E13  1645
>1H  + 11B   -> 3 4He         +  8.7 Mev  6.99E13  1287

Thank you.  Thats a table that would have made your other table useful.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Correction
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 08:06:32 -0500

At 11:26 AM 6/4/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>Hi Kelly,
>
>After having stared at it for half an hour I typed that relativisitic rocket
>equation. Now I know why I couldn't believe its simplicity.
>This morning I still was thinking about it and suddenly I knew what I had
>done wrong, well not wrong, but the formula is to no use for you, since it
>only takes into account the relativistic exhaust speed and not the
>relativistic ship (Vend) speed. Since in your calculations Vexh is hardly
>relativistic the formula is completely useless.
>To derive the right equation, would take a while, maybe Rex has it by hand?
>
>CU, Timothy


Ah.  Good point.  Thanks for the follow up.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: more physics (short)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 21:04:41 +0100


>>>No the numbers were not based on an engineering output.  That was supposed
>>>to be the direct output from the reactions.  Could be I misread something
>>>and the 14E6 number was for something else (though I can't see what).
>>
>>I don't know, but I've been discussing this with Rex lately and he thinks
>>that the efficiency of a DIRECT fusion engine may be low. With direct I mean
>>that one doesn't convert the kinetic energy of the reaction products to
>>electricity.
>
>Why?  The velocities seem to be similar to the 'optimum' velocities in your
>table.  I thought you figured that by the time you converted the particals
>momentum to elec, and then convert that elec back to the exaust velocity of
>a mass it would all come out even?  (Give or take a lot of tonage of power
>equipment.)
>
>Please CC me if you have anything.

It has to do with the fact that one needs to build up pressure in the engine
so that all reaction products get a more or less even velocity.
Then the particles can be directed to a "hole" (the outlet) in the engine.
It is the question if the pressure can be build up, since a lot of the
energy will be radiated away, we may be talking about million degrees here.
Maybe particles can be contained but black body radiation is hard to keep in.
This way there will probably be to much losses, therefore it may be best to
capture that heat rightaway and turn it into electricity.

Timothy

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: more physics (short)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:18:56 -0500

At 9:04 PM 6/4/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>>>>No the numbers were not based on an engineering output.  That was supposed
>>>>to be the direct output from the reactions.  Could be I misread something
>>>>and the 14E6 number was for something else (though I can't see what).
>>>
>>>I don't know, but I've been discussing this with Rex lately and he thinks
>>>that the efficiency of a DIRECT fusion engine may be low. With direct I mean
>>>that one doesn't convert the kinetic energy of the reaction products to
>>>electricity.
>>
>>Why?  The velocities seem to be similar to the 'optimum' velocities in your
>>table.  I thought you figured that by the time you converted the particals
>>momentum to elec, and then convert that elec back to the exaust velocity of
>>a mass it would all come out even?  (Give or take a lot of tonage of power
>>equipment.)
>>
>>Please CC me if you have anything.
>
>It has to do with the fact that one needs to build up pressure in the engine
>so that all reaction products get a more or less even velocity.
>Then the particles can be directed to a "hole" (the outlet) in the engine.
>It is the question if the pressure can be build up, since a lot of the
>energy will be radiated away, we may be talking about million degrees here.
>Maybe particles can be contained but black body radiation is hard to keep in.
>This way there will probably be to much losses, therefore it may be best to
>capture that heat rightaway and turn it into electricity.
>
>Timothy


I don't follow why the presure or hole?  I was figuring on the reactor
being in a parabolic charged bowel that would reflect the particals in the
general direction.  (About a 20 degree cone should be good.)  Otherwise
trying to contain that much power would be hard and HOT.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: New load
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 16:47:29 -0500

Good news/ bad news

I uploaded new drafts of all my web stuff into Daves server / W/S.

Bad news, it doesn't seem to work right.  At least not all the time.

Anyway.  The big changes are some text clean-ups and a set of graphical
table of content maps.  So if you enter

http://165.254.130.92/LIT/InterStellar/project/

You will get the main Starship design project entry page (Which I made
pretty flash I hope!) with a hyerarchical TOC to the other stuff.
Selecting a bar for the status repoty will bounce you to that report.
Selecting a bar for a subsection will bounce you there.  This table and the
main (default.htm) TOC table in the Explorer_Class folder

(  http://165.254.130.92/LIT/InterStellar/project/Explorer_Class/ )

Are actually tables with .gifs for each button.  I did that so something
would work (I can't test maps on my station) and because I thought they'ld
be esier to modify.  It works, but the images don't all seem to down load.
(DAVE!  If this a general problem or something specific to your W/S.)

Once you enter a document (as apposed to a TOC page) the TOC at the start
of the doc is a Map file.  They don't seem to work right.  If you select
the bannor (say the strip that says "The Explorer Class Starship" with the
graphic and my name at the top) it will bounce you to the next higher level
(the TOC or project main TOC) but if you select a band that should jump to
a subset of the current doc it can't find it.

Anyway please bounce around and see what you think.  Specifically check out
the StarShip Design Project main TOC.

(  http://165.254.130.92/LIT/InterStellar/project/  )

and the Explorer class Toc

(  http://165.254.130.92/LIT/InterStellar/project/Explorer_Class/ )

Please tell me which looks better, or if I should keep the two separte looks.

DAVE!
when I named docs  default.html the browser didn't bring them up from a

(  http://165.254.130.92/LIT/InterStellar/project/Explorer_Class/ )

like selection, but did when I labled them defaul.htm.  Was this a
transient (I had access problems to your machine (or maby the browser got
lost in my tests?).  Any hint?

I'll test and fix things as time permits.

Hope you like the new look!

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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	 ,
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        "stevev@efn.org" ,
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         "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" 
To: "rddesign@wolfenet.com" ,
         "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com" ,
         "DotarSojat@aol.com" ,
         "sl0c8@cc.usu.edu" ,
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         "101765.2200@compuserve.com" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>
To: "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" 
Subject: RE: New load
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 18:32:03 -0400

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.  Contact your
mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a version
that supports MIME.

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Some odd stuff going on with my server - it's possible
the problems spring from the fact that The IP address
is "virtual".  I'm looking into it as I write this.  Hope to
have an answer soon.  At worst the IP address will
change, but that won't affect what's there.  I'll let
everyone know soon.

>

------ =_NextPart_000_01BB5244.210351A0--

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: USING A ELECTROMAGNETIC BEAM TO PROPELL A STARSHIP
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 18:18:22 +0100

Kevin wrote:
>> I tried to keep it in the middle (laser or maser), at some places I even
>> used EM-beams. I don't understand the explanation with your numbers above:
>> You say the cost of a beaming station increases because the conversion from
>> sunlight into electricity is ~ 10%, but masers don't need electricity too?
>
>What I mean is that while there could be a way to turn sunlight to laser light
>without going through an in-between step like electricity, there is no way to
>do this for masers.  The sun's microwave output is just too dim compared to its
>visible output.

Huh? I got the idea that you preferred maser because it is so efficient, now
your saying that laser may not need an in-between-step, from which I would
conclude that laser is a preferred method.

Oh wait, you are pointing at two things here:
maser: needs an extra step, easy to convert to electricity
laser: may not need an extra step, less easy to convert to electricity
Did I get it right?

>> I can understand that phasing is easier with longer wavelengths, so I will
>
>it's not just the longer wavelengths, a lot of this technology is available
>today in the form of radar installations and radio telescopes.

I see, do you know if it is difficult to transfer this technology to shorter
wavelengths?
If it is not too difficult it would be worth trying, especially because the
technology that is available now will need a lot of redesigning (if not
completely new ideas) anyway. 

>>>> 1 The beaming station very likely needs to be build on a moving/rotating
>>>> object like a planet, moon or asteroid.
>>
>>>possible solutions: 1) Multiply the number of separate beaming stations
>>
>> I'm not sure about (1), because a beaming station already consists of many
>> smaller masers. Isn't this the same as increasing the size of the beam?
>
>Not really.  consider the following 16 element maser array

Ah, now I see, I already assumed every single maser had his own tracking and
aiming device. I'm not sure however how independent they would be, but I
assume one could build in a rule that not all maser-unit are allowed to move
at the same time.

>All I know is that by changing the phase of the separate elements (all of the 
>Number 4s above, one can change the direction that the EM rad goes off in.  I 
>would think that phase adjustments would be more difficult for optical systems 
>than for microwave.  The elements phases are not all changed the same way at 
>the same time, so yes, I think it is an interference effect, both constructive 
>and destructive.

But what has the upper hand? The constructive or destructive side... (This
was the reason for my inquiry.)

>> I think I was seeing a phased array as a problem on itself here.
>
>I think pahes array comes with a different set of problems, like not being
>able to completely cancel Em going off in some unwanted direction.  This ends
>up costing power but the advantages of finer control and reduction of self
>interference effects should more than make up for a slight power drain

I guess here you answered my question just above...

>>>Solution:  Phased array.  By conecting two transmitters many hundreds of
>>>kilometers apart, one can simulate a single arperature with the same
>>>baseline.
>> 
>> I cannot believe this is completely true. More (phased) sources can indeed
>> decrease diffraction effects, but does one extra source have so much effect?
>> Does anyone know this for certain by head? Otherwise I'd need to calculate
>> it myself (which I don't like at the moment).
>
>Again, we already do this for space craft.  the Magellan probe to Venus for
>example. many of the radar pictures were made using synthetic arperature.
>Instead of multiple antennas, different images from closely spaced times along
>the same orbit were used.

I already thought this was the base of your misunderstanding. For what I
know (I'm not 100% certain) this method only increases resolution (in the
sense of larger angle deviations), but it does not decrease diffraction in
the same way.
The term interferometry points at the comparing of two parts of a wavefront.
The difference in phase is then used in calculations that increase the
resolution. I know it is a bit fague, but I don't have good literature about
it at the moment. (Feel free to attack me if you still feel you are right).

>maybe a better explanation...  the probe sends out a long pulse of radar the 
>probe picks up a reflection from the surface, and, as it moves in it's orbit, 
>the signal changes.  Computers combine the multiple reflections into one that
>looks like it came from an antenna as big as the orbital "footprint"
>
>radio telescopes on opposite sides of the globe routinely are connected to
each 
>other and the result is an antenna as wide as the earth.  Called Very Long
>Baseline Interferometry


>>>>9 Red shift is especially important when the starship reaches relativistic
>
>Okay, so it is an increased cost, and not a technical difficulty

It may become a technical difficulty if the shift becomes too large, then
the reflectivity (and absorption) may change for the worse. While it may not
matter much that some energy is lost, it may matter that a small part (even
<0.001%) of high intensity radiation enters the crew space filled with
sensitive computers etc.

>> 12.
>> Yes, I know, but that doesn't decrease the weight of the sail, which may
>> become a crucial point in the whole design. I'll add this in the solution
>> section.
>
>Agreed.  I like Kelly's idea of using 6Li for the sail, very elegant.

Unless we need a sail for the way back home...

>> 14.
>> Yes, but where do you put the sending/receiving antenna? If they are inside
>> the beam they are likely to be ionized.
>
>I think a visible laser tube (say CO2 for example) which would be mostly glass
>or other non-ionizable material, would be immune to this effect.  If it
>becomes a real problem, you can shoot the visible light laser through the
>~ 1cm holes of a Microwave shield.

That would be a solution and a reason to use maser ;)

>> Advantages:

>> >3) Ship can accelerate continously, taking advantage of the time dialation
>> >effect. and providing the crew with a near normal gravity environment
>> 
>> Are other designs like fusion engines not able to do this? (in theory) The
>> advantages of time dilations are not clear to me (see also 9)
>
>I think the problem with the fusion rockets, is that in order to accelerate 
>continuously, the need planatary sized fuel tanks.  Kelly's top speed is about
>.4C and that's taking advantage of every trick in the book.

I agree, but it is only partly true, since you also need to decelerate using
onboard reaction mass (not necessary fuel). If you accelerate too much, that
amount of reaction mass needs to get bigger in order to be able to stop the
starship.

>The main advantages of 
>Kelly's hybrid fusion/maser design are
>1) lowered cost
>2) decell stage is independent of earth.
>
>The advantage of time dialations, is that _all_ stars (within reason of
course) 
>tend to be nearly the same time away (as seen by the crew) and much savings of 
>food and other supplies can be acheived.  Also, regardless of the actual
(earth-
>based) time of flight, earth (or the return masers) only need to send out
about 
>a two-year long pulse of energy to sustain the flight 

Oops, last time I told you that the Doppler effect was cancelled for the
people in the starship, I think I was mistaken there.
Note the following expression for the Doppler shift, after the arrow I've
rewritten it so that you can see that there is more than f/gamma in it.

                 2
       Sqrt[1 - b ]                             f       1
f'= f --------------  (where b=v/c) --> f' = ------- -------
          1 + b                               gamma   1 + b


That extra term makes it so that the time-dilation cannot make up the energy
drop.

So to make up that drop Earth would need to increase the intensity of the
beam. Steve, Rex, am I right here?

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
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        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Engine (EM radiation) problems
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 18:19:51 +0100

Kelly wrote:

>I don't follow why the presure or hole?  I was figuring on the reactor
>being in a parabolic charged bowel that would reflect the particals in the
>general direction.  (About a 20 degree cone should be good.)  Otherwise
>trying to contain that much power would be hard and HOT.

Yes, I believe this pressure thing was something I imagined, and later it
seemed that the Bussard engine did not work that way.
The main reason for that pressure thing was to even out the velocities, this
way we would not get very fast and very slow particles all together.
Particles with high velocity have a worse momentum:energy ratio (a new
term?). This means that if you have some energy and want to make the most
velocity (momentum) from it, you get the most of it if you use low exhaust
velocities. Unfortunately this also means that more mass is needed, which is
not preferrable.
But assuming a specific amount of mass and a specific amount of energy, you
get the most momentum if you give all the mass the same velocity.
Having said all this, I haven't the faintest idea how much the efficiency of
engine would rise if one did this in reality.

One thing that I'm worried about is the question of how much EM-radiation
would be formed during the reaction, I know you said none, but any collision
of particles (or acceleration, or deceleration of charged particles) would
create EM-radiation. Since it will not be easy to deflect this radiation, we
need a solution for it.

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: New load
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 18:19:42 +0100

Kelly wrote:
>Good news/ bad news
>
>I uploaded new drafts of all my web stuff into Daves server / W/S.
>
>Bad news, it doesn't seem to work right.  At least not all the time.
>
>Anyway.  The big changes are some text clean-ups and a set of graphical
>table of content maps.  So if you enter
>
>http://165.254.130.92/LIT/InterStellar/project/

Will check it out one of these days (did I say that too someone else already?)

I uploaded my stuff also, but haven't been able to make it accessable, I
believe David is working on it.


Tim

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To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
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Subject: Re: USING A ELECTROMAGNETIC BEAM TO PROPELL A STARSHIP
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 12:22:10 -0500

At 6:18 PM 6/5/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>Kevin wrote:
>>> I tried to keep it in the middle (laser or maser), at some places I even
>>> used EM-beams. I don't understand the explanation with your numbers above:
>>> You say the cost of a beaming station increases because the conversion from
>>> sunlight into electricity is ~ 10%, but masers don't need electricity too?
>>
>>What I mean is that while there could be a way to turn sunlight to laser light
>>without going through an in-between step like electricity, there is no way to
>>do this for masers.  The sun's microwave output is just too dim compared
>>to its
>>visible output.
>
>Huh? I got the idea that you preferred maser because it is so efficient, now
>your saying that laser may not need an in-between-step, from which I would
>conclude that laser is a preferred method.
>
>Oh wait, you are pointing at two things here:
>maser: needs an extra step, easy to convert to electricity
>laser: may not need an extra step, less easy to convert to electricity
>Did I get it right?

The sail system for a microwave beam sail is simpler and lighter than for a
laser sail.

Of course if your using my hybrid fuel/sail configuration you want a havyer
sail...  ;)





>>>>>9 Red shift is especially important when the starship reaches relativistic
>>
>>Okay, so it is an increased cost, and not a technical difficulty
>
>It may become a technical difficulty if the shift becomes too large, then
>the reflectivity (and absorption) may change for the worse. While it may not
>matter much that some energy is lost, it may matter that a small part (even
><0.001%) of high intensity radiation enters the crew space filled with
>sensitive computers etc.

Given the power levels were tossing about a .001% absorbtion would melt the
ship.

>>> 12.
>>> Yes, I know, but that doesn't decrease the weight of the sail, which may
>>> become a crucial point in the whole design. I'll add this in the solution
>>> section.
>>
>>Agreed.  I like Kelly's idea of using 6Li for the sail, very elegant.

Thank you.

>Unless we need a sail for the way back home...

You make a new, far smaller & lighter, sail before you leave for home.


>>> Advantages:
>
>>> >3) Ship can accelerate continously, taking advantage of the time dialation
>>> >effect. and providing the crew with a near normal gravity environment
>>>
>>> Are other designs like fusion engines not able to do this? (in theory) The
>>> advantages of time dilations are not clear to me (see also 9)
>>
>>I think the problem with the fusion rockets, is that in order to accelerate
>>continuously, the need planatary sized fuel tanks.  Kelly's top speed is about
>>.4C and that's taking advantage of every trick in the book.

<..and if anyone can suggest other books...>

>I agree, but it is only partly true, since you also need to decelerate using
>onboard reaction mass (not necessary fuel). If you accelerate too much, that
>amount of reaction mass needs to get bigger in order to be able to stop the
>starship.
>
>>The main advantages of
>>Kelly's hybrid fusion/maser design are
>>1) lowered cost
>>2) decell stage is independent of earth.

I'ld add in technical fesability.  We still haven't fiqured out how to
brake a pure sail ship into a unprepared starsystem.

Also power requirements should be far less.

>>The advantage of time dialations, is that _all_ stars (within reason of
>course)
>>tend to be nearly the same time away (as seen by the crew) and much
>>savings of
>>food and other supplies can be acheived.  Also, regardless of the actual
>(earth-
>>based) time of flight, earth (or the return masers) only need to send out
>about
>>a two-year long pulse of energy to sustain the flight

Did you mean to say return masers?  Obviously the 2 year pulse bit works
outgoing, but not incoming, ships.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Engine (EM radiation) problems
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 12:27:21 -0500

At 6:19 PM 6/5/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>Kelly wrote:
>
>>I don't follow why the presure or hole?  I was figuring on the reactor
>>being in a parabolic charged bowel that would reflect the particals in the
>>general direction.  (About a 20 degree cone should be good.)  Otherwise
>>trying to contain that much power would be hard and HOT.
>
>Yes, I believe this pressure thing was something I imagined, and later it
>seemed that the Bussard engine did not work that way.
>The main reason for that pressure thing was to even out the velocities, this
>way we would not get very fast and very slow particles all together.
>Particles with high velocity have a worse momentum:energy ratio (a new
>term?). This means that if you have some energy and want to make the most
>velocity (momentum) from it, you get the most of it if you use low exhaust
>velocities. Unfortunately this also means that more mass is needed, which is
>not preferrable.
>But assuming a specific amount of mass and a specific amount of energy, you
>get the most momentum if you give all the mass the same velocity.
>Having said all this, I haven't the faintest idea how much the efficiency of
>engine would rise if one did this in reality.
>
>One thing that I'm worried about is the question of how much EM-radiation
>would be formed during the reaction, I know you said none, but any collision
>of particles (or acceleration, or deceleration of charged particles) would
>create EM-radiation. Since it will not be easy to deflect this radiation, we
>need a solution for it.
>
>Timothy


I worry about EM and secoundary reactions in the plasma.  We are after all
talking about hellish amounts of power.  Even small percentages could
incinerate the engine and ship.  (Even a mile of Lithium might not protect
the crew.)

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
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         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Engine (EM radiation) problems
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:16:04 -0700

Timothy van der Linden writes:
 > Yes, I believe this pressure thing was something I imagined, and later it
 > seemed that the Bussard engine did not work that way.
 > The main reason for that pressure thing was to even out the velocities, this
 > way we would not get very fast and very slow particles all together.
 > Particles with high velocity have a worse momentum:energy ratio (a new
 > term?). This means that if you have some energy and want to make the most
 > velocity (momentum) from it, you get the most of it if you use low exhaust
 > velocities. Unfortunately this also means that more mass is needed, which is
 > not preferrable.

This statement bugs me because it is completely contradictory to
something I worked out a while ago and that you seemed to agree with,
which is that higher exhaust velocities are best, and the ideal case is
turning all your fuel into zero-mass photons moving at the speed of
light.

You do want to get all your exhaust products moving backwards, which
implies confining the fuel reaction and reflecting any forward-moving
products backwards.  You're absolutely going to lose energy to heat if
you try to equalize the exhaust velocity.  In any case a gas at a
particular temperature doesn't have a uniform set of particle
velocities; it's still a statistical distribution about a mean that is
characteristic of the gas temperature.

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: New load
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:19:48 -0500

Hey Folks,
I'm working up a new LIT web links page if you have technical or personal
pages you'ld like linked to.  Send me the HTTP://.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Fri June  7 01:16:24 GMT 1996
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
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Subject: Re: USING A ELECTROMAGNETIC BEAM TO PROPELL A STARSHIP
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 23:15:25 +0100

Kevin wrote:
>> But what has the upper hand? The constructive or destructive side... (This
>> was the reason for my inquiry.)
>
>Both.  Constructive in the direction of TC, destructive in other directions

Maybe I'll make a simulation about that some time.

>> I already thought this was the base of your misunderstanding. For what I
>> know (I'm not 100% certain) this method only increases resolution (in the
>> sense of larger angle deviations), but it does not decrease diffraction in
>> the same way.
>> The term interferometry points at the comparing of two parts of a wavefront.
>> The difference in phase is then used in calculations that increase the
>> resolution. I know it is a bit fague, but I don't have good literature about
>> it at the moment. (Feel free to attack me if you still feel you are right).
>
>ME? Attack? Never!  *8^S
>However, If it can produce better resolution, does this help the "jitter" 
>problem?

Don't think so, however, those phased arrays (as I think they work) are
probably doing the thing you want.
One can focus radiowaves (using interference), by placing antennas in a line
at specific distances. Note however that these single antennas are radiating
in all directions (in contrary to a laser).

I'll check it out in literature if I get a chance.

>> Oops, last time I told you that the Doppler effect was cancelled for the
>> people in the starship, I think I was mistaken there.
>> Note the following expression for the Doppler shift, after the arrow I've
>> rewritten it so that you can see that there is more than f/gamma in it.
>> 
>>                  2
>>        Sqrt[1 - b ]                             f       1
>> f'= f --------------  (where b=v/c) --> f' = ------- -------
>>           1 + b                               gamma   1 + b
>> 
>
>Hmm... so earth would need to roughly double output near the middle of the
>pulse?
>where b=.99

I guess so. I already thought a while about this (that's the reason for the
delay of the last letter). I'd feel more confident if someone would confirm
this.

Timothy

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Status: U
From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: USING A ELECTROMAGNETIC BEAM TO PROPELL A STARSHIP
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 23:15:32 +0100

Reply to Kelly

>>Oh wait, you are pointing at two things here:
>>maser: needs an extra step, easy to convert to electricity
>>laser: may not need an extra step, less easy to convert to electricity
>>Did I get it right?
>
>The sail system for a microwave beam sail is simpler and lighter than for a
>laser sail.

Yes, that would be a pro.

>Of course if your using my hybrid fuel/sail configuration you want a havyer
>sail...  ;)

Laser forth and maser back?

>>It may become a technical difficulty if the shift becomes too large, then
>>the reflectivity (and absorption) may change for the worse. While it may not
>>matter much that some energy is lost, it may matter that a small part (even
>><0.001%) of high intensity radiation enters the crew space filled with
>>sensitive computers etc.
>
>Given the power levels were tossing about a .001% absorbtion would melt the
>ship.

That's exactly what I mean. It is very well possible to make something
almost 100% reflective for one wavelength, but the better for one, the worse
for different wavelengths.

>Did you mean to say return masers?  Obviously the 2 year pulse bit works
>outgoing, but not incoming, ships.

Incoming ships need less energy than outgoing ships (because of blueshift),
does it really matter how long the beam is on?

Timothy

=============================================================================

Subject: Re: Engine (EM radiation) problems

Reply to Kelly

>>One thing that I'm worried about is the question of how much EM-radiation
>>would be formed during the reaction, I know you said none, but any collision
>>of particles (or acceleration, or deceleration of charged particles) would
>>create EM-radiation. Since it will not be easy to deflect this radiation, we
>>need a solution for it.
>
>I worry about EM and secoundary reactions in the plasma.  We are after all
>talking about hellish amounts of power.  Even small percentages could
>incinerate the engine and ship.  (Even a mile of Lithium might not protect
>the crew.)

OK, then we're back on one line...

Kelly

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: mind lock  http
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 16:24:48 -0500

Ok I have some refs in my web pages such as this:


Explorer Class

The idea is you click on the text "Explorer Class".  It forwards you to the
subdirectory "Explorer_Class/" and brings up the default document
"default.htm".  Instead it goves me a directory listing of the contents of
the subdirectory "Explorer_Class/".  Ive tried "default.htm",
"default.html" and tried pulling the / out of the Href.  NO go.  Now I no
this worked before, so what did I do wrong?!!

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Energy:momentum ratio
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 23:15:18 +0100

To Steve,

>Timothy van der Linden writes:
> > Yes, I believe this pressure thing was something I imagined, and later it
> > seemed that the Bussard engine did not work that way.
> > The main reason for that pressure thing was to even out the velocities, this
> > way we would not get very fast and very slow particles all together.
> > Particles with high velocity have a worse momentum:energy ratio (a new
> > term?). This means that if you have some energy and want to make the most
> > velocity (momentum) from it, you get the most of it if you use low exhaust
> > velocities. Unfortunately this also means that more mass is needed, which is
> > not preferrable.
>
>This statement bugs me because it is completely contradictory to
>something I worked out a while ago and that you seemed to agree with,
>which is that higher exhaust velocities are best, and the ideal case is
>turning all your fuel into zero-mass photons moving at the speed of
>light.

Yes, that was a long time ago, that's why some time ago (2 months) I asked
you if you could find that letter. Since you couldn't find it I started
digging... deep, finally I found it, but now I lost it.... So dug it up
again, Sept 1, 1995 that's the date of your letter.

There you say:

  Choice 3:  The fabled Photon Rocket, exhaust velocity r = 1,  f = 0.268

  Assuming you could make a machine that eats matter and produces a
  stream of pure photons (probably not physically impossible, but
  still very difficult) then you get the best fuel efficiency of
  all, about 3 parts fuel for each part payload.

  (note: f = fraction of mass that can be payload)

Your definition of fuel-efficiency is completely different from mine
(momentum:energy-ratio), your f is the same as the ship:fuel-ratio.

>You do want to get all your exhaust products moving backwards, which
>implies confining the fuel reaction and reflecting any forward-moving
>products backwards.  You're absolutely going to lose energy to heat if
>you try to equalize the exhaust velocity.  In any case a gas at a
>particular temperature doesn't have a uniform set of particle
>velocities; it's still a statistical distribution about a mean that is
>characteristic of the gas temperature.

Yes, I'm aware of this heat-loss problem, it was a theoretical model, of
which I in the beginning had not thought enough of the practical problems.


Timothy



P.S. This is something I derived some time ago:

Momentum/Energy (p/E) ratio:

for photons:    1/c

for mass   :    1/c {v/(c-Sqrt[c^2-v^2])} if you know the velocity
             or 1/c Sqrt[U(U+2 m c^2)] if you know mass and kinetic energy

where {v/(c-Sqrt[c^2-v^2])} is always bigger than 1
(for v->c it goes to 1, for v->0 it goes to infinity)

So if you have some energy and want to get the most momentum of it you could
best use mass, the efficiency is always better.

Note, while the p/E ratio for mass may decrease for increasing v, this does
not mean that the total momentum decreases.

From popserver Sat June  8 03:08:49 GMT 1996
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: USING A ELECTROMAGNETIC BEAM TO PROPELL A STARSHIP
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 08:47:40 -0500

At 11:15 PM 6/6/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>Reply to Kelly
>
>>>Oh wait, you are pointing at two things here:
>>>maser: needs an extra step, easy to convert to electricity
>>>laser: may not need an extra step, less easy to convert to electricity
>>>Did I get it right?
>>
>>The sail system for a microwave beam sail is simpler and lighter than for a
>>laser sail.
>
>Yes, that would be a pro.
>
>>Of course if your using my hybrid fuel/sail configuration you want a havyer
>>sail...  ;)
>
>Laser forth and maser back?

Doesn't really matter.  On the way out it depends on what lithium reflects
best.  On the way back probably the same thing, just so you don't need to
build new beaming facilities.

>>>It may become a technical difficulty if the shift becomes too large, then
>>>the reflectivity (and absorption) may change for the worse. While it may not
>>>matter much that some energy is lost, it may matter that a small part (even
>>><0.001%) of high intensity radiation enters the crew space filled with
>>>sensitive computers etc.
>>
>>Given the power levels were tossing about a .001% absorbtion would melt the
>>ship.
>
>That's exactly what I mean. It is very well possible to make something
>almost 100% reflective for one wavelength, but the better for one, the worse
>for different wavelengths.
>
>>Did you mean to say return masers?  Obviously the 2 year pulse bit works
>>outgoing, but not incoming, ships.
>
>Incoming ships need less energy than outgoing ships (because of blueshift),
>does it really matter how long the beam is on?
>
>Timothy
>
>=============================================================================
>
>Subject: Re: Engine (EM radiation) problems
>
>Reply to Kelly
>
>>>One thing that I'm worried about is the question of how much EM-radiation
>>>would be formed during the reaction, I know you said none, but any collision
>>>of particles (or acceleration, or deceleration of charged particles) would
>>>create EM-radiation. Since it will not be easy to deflect this radiation, we
>>>need a solution for it.
>>
>>I worry about EM and secoundary reactions in the plasma.  We are after all
>>talking about hellish amounts of power.  Even small percentages could
>>incinerate the engine and ship.  (Even a mile of Lithium might not protect
>>the crew.)
>
>OK, then we're back on one line...

One line?

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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        KellySt , rddesign ,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: SSRT: DC-XA Flight Live Internet Video
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 15:39:19 -0500

>Return-Path: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu
>From: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu (Chris W. Johnson)
>To: "Single Stage Rocket Technology News" 
>Subject: SSRT: DC-XA Flight Live Internet Video
>Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:01:53 -0600
>Sender: listserv@zimbazi.cc.utexas.edu
>X-listname: 
>
>
>
>From: david42@bix.com (david42)
>Newsgroups: sci.space.science
>Subject: DC-XA Flight Live Internet Video
>Date: 5 Jun 1996 18:10:53 GMT
>Organization: BIX
>Lines: 45
>
>
>An experimental video distribution system will be tested during the
>6/7/96 flight of the DC-XA at White Sands.
>
>Live video at approximately 10 frames per second, monochrome, will
>be sent via telephone link from the guest viewing area to a video
>server on the Internet.
>
>Also, after the flight, the video will be available on the server
>for access via web browsers. This is a cooperative effort between
>the Lunar Teleoperations Model I, DCSN, pTv and McDonnell Douglas.
>
>To view live video, web browse the site www.diaspar.com, select
>user web pages and then pTv. pTv is making their experimental Internet
>video software available for the DCXA flight event. Look for the
>latest information on the pTv web pages and system announcements.
>
>There are several viewers available. The latest version runs under
>Windows 95 and allows live viewing as well as "playback" of video
>files on the server. Other versions run under Windows 3.x and play
>back video but do not receive live video. All viewers work with
>popular web browsers - you download the viewer and then set your
>"MIME table" or "File Types List" to include capability to receive
>and play the video sequences.
>
>We are not sure at this time of bandwidth capability, final features,
>flight times, etc. Please consider this to be highly experimental,
>dependant on a lot of things working just right and some luck!
>
>Contact for technical details and assistance is gavinroy@diaspar.com
>and contact for space-related matters is david42@diaspar.com
>
>Since there is usually about a 24 hour turn-around on posts to moderated
>news groups, please browse www.diaspar.com for last minute updates.
>
>If you can, download and test the viewer of your choice ahead of
>the flights. The server already has video from the "rotational
>maneuver" flight available for viewing. And, if the server can not
>handle a large load during the flights, check back a few minutes after
>each flight to play back the flight video.
>
>David H. Mitchell
>LTM1
>
>
>
>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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	nil)
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From: "L. Parker" 
To: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: SSRT: 2nd and Possible 3rd Flight of DC-XA Set for June 7
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 15:40:27 -0500

>Return-Path: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu
>From: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu (Chris W. Johnson)
>To: "Single Stage Rocket Technology News" 
>Subject: SSRT: 2nd and Possible 3rd Flight of DC-XA Set for June 7
>Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 17:51:00 -0600
>Sender: listserv@zimbazi.cc.utexas.edu
>X-listname: 
>
>
>Items in this message:
>
>  1. A note from the SSRT list administrator/archivist (me).
>  2. Information on DC-XA flights 2 and (possibly) 3.
>  3. Correction regarding the DC-XA landing pad.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>Dear Readers:
>
>Several readers kindly sent me corrections regarding the landing pad used
>in the first DC-XA flight, as mentioned in Space Access Update no. 64.
>(That update stated that DC-XA was still landing on a concrete slab, which
>was incorrect. See the final item in this message for Henry Vanderbilt's
>correction.) While I appreciated the excellent information several people
>provided, there seemed to be a common misconception that *I* was the author
>of the Space Access Update. Since this misunderstanding has cropped-up
>before, I'd like to make sure everyone understands that I am *not* the
>author of the vast majority of the material distributed on this mailing
>list and stored on the archive. That's why the attribution for the items
>redistributed on this list is *always* preserved at beginning of each item.
>So, check those attributions when responding, or the actual author probably
>won't get your message. (Please feel free to co-copy me on such messages,
>of course.)
>
>I wish I had the kind of information to pass along that people like Henry
>do, but that's not the case. As such my role in SSRT/SSTO/X-33 advocacy for
>the last 3.5 years has merely been to collect the best information I can
>find from people like Henry Vanderbilt & the Space Access Society, Henry
>Spencer, Allen Sherzer, etc., store it all in the FTP/Web archive, and
>relay it to people via this mailing list.
>
>Having said all that, I'd like to add that if any readers want to send me
>information (whether it be news, corrections, etc.) for possible inclusion
>in the archive and relay to this list, I'd be happy to receive it. Make
>sure you explicity state that I can pass along the information you've
>provided, and if you'd prefer to remain anonymous, state that as well so
>I'll know to remove all references to the source of the information. (BTW,
>please suggest an attribution for the material like "sources close to the
>program", "knowledgeable sources", etc.) As mentioned earlier, I received
>some excellent information as corrections to SAU 64, but I couldn't pass it
>along becase I was unable to get the actual sources to consent to its
>redistribution.
>
>----Chris
>
>Chris W. Johnson
>
>Email: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu
>URL:   http://gargravarr.cc.utexas.edu/
>
>"It is only now beginning to dawn on us that an American city with its
>immense freeway and parking infrastructure resembles not so much a city
>of the 21st century as a city which has suffered saturation bombing."
>--Wolfgang Zuckermann
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
>Newsgroups: sci.space.news
>Subject: 2nd and Possible 3rd Flight of Delta Clipper Set for June 7
>Date: 3 Jun 1996 13:46:36 -0700
>Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
>Lines: 57
>
>James Cast
>Headquarters, Washington, DC                   June 3, 1996
>(Phone: 202/358-1779)
>
>David Drachlis
>Marshall Space Flight Center, Huntsville, AL
>(Phone:  205/544-0034)
>
>NOTE TO EDITORS:  N96-37
>
>SECOND AND POSSIBLE THIRD FLIGHT OF DELTA CLIPPER SET FOR JUNE 7
>
>     The second in a series of five test flights planned for
>NASA=D5s Delta Clipper-Experimental Advanced (DC-XA) single-
>stage rocket is scheduled for10 a.m. EDT on Friday, June 7 at
>the White Sands Missile Range, New Mexico. If conditions
>permit, a third flight of the DC-XA may be attempted,
>possibly as early as eight hours after completion of the
>second flight in the test series.  A decision to attempt that
>additional flight will be made about four hours after
>completion of the scheduled second test.
>
>     The DC-XA, developed by McDonnell Douglas Aerospace and
>NASA under a cooperative agreement as part of the Reusable
>Launch Vehicle Technology Program, successfully completed its
>first test flight on May 18.
>
>     Media representatives may cover the tests by requesting
>accreditation from the White Sands Missile Range Public
>Affairs Office by either facsimile (505/678-7174) or calling
>(505/678-1134). Media representatives already accredited must
>still register in advance to ensure adequate transportation
>to the test site.  Media planning to view the test flight
>must be at Bldg. 122 by 7:30 a.m. EDT on flight day.
>
>     On Thursday, June 6, media will have an opportunity to
>photograph the DC-XA on its launch pad and interview program
>managers.  Media wishing to participate in this event must
>report to the Public Affairs Office, Bldg. 122, by 2:45 p.m. EDT.
>
>     At 7 p.m. EDT June 6, a pre-flight briefing will be held
>in the San Rafael Room of the Hilton Hotel in Las Cruces, New
>Mexico.  Officials from NASA, McDonnell Douglas Aerospace,
>the U.S. Air Force Phillips Laboratory, and White Sands
>Missile Range will participate.
>
>     The DC-XA flight will be carried live on NASA Television
>beginning at approximately 9:30 a.m. EDT. A post-flight media
>briefing will air approximately 30 minutes after the flight.
>
>      NASA Television is carried on C-band, Spacenet 2,
>Transponder 5, Channel 9 at 69 degrees west longitude.   The
>transponder frequency is 3880 Mhz and the audio subcarrier is
>6.8 Mhz.
>
>                    -end-
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>From: hvanderbilt@BIX.com (hvanderbilt on BIX)
>Newsgroups: sci.space.policy
>Subject: Re: DC-XA landing pad?
>Date: 25 May 96 20:17:55 GMT
>Organization: Delphi Internet Services Corporation
>Lines: 41
>
>RE the following, yes, it turns out they did indeed build a=
 grating-over-pit
>into the DC-X landing pad over the winter, and they did indeed land last
>Saturday's first DC-XA flight on it - and apparently found that the new
>pad arrangement did some unexpected things to the rocket blast as the
>ship landed.  More on that in the next Update, RSN...
>
>This is what I get for still being in DC when I could have been at WSMR
>walking the site the Thursday before - I'm sure I would have asked what's
>under that tarp on the landing pad...  Anyone know where I can lease a
>TARDIS, cheap?
>
>           Henry Vanderbilt  hvanderbilt@bix.com
>
>kingdon@harvey.cyclic.com (Jim Kingdon) writes:
>
>>> I don't get it--I read on the White Sands Operations page that they
>>> have been building a landing pad for the DC-XA that has a steel
>>> grating over a flame pit.  Wouldn't this deflect the landing exhaust
>>> away from the vehicle?  Is the pad not completed, did they not use it,
>>> or did it not work?
>
>>Hmm.  For those who didn't see this, the page is
>>http://rlv.msfc.nasa.gov/rlv_htmls/WSRpt.html and the relevant excerpt
>>is:
>
>>    Accomplishments
>>    April 9, 1996 through April 22, 1996
>
>>    . . .
>
>>    WSTF is nearing completion of the modification of
>>    the landing pad. Recently completed activities
>>    include installation and leveling of the support
>>    columns, I-beams and grating sections. When
>>    completed, the steel grating will act as the landing
>>    target zone for the DC-XA. This modification is
>>    intended to deflect away from the flight vehicle a
>>    large percentage of the engine exhaust that rebounds
>>    during landing. This will significantly reduce the
>>    severe thermal and erosive environment experienced
>>    during landing by the DC-X.
>
>
>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
+++
+                                                                           =
  +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread... =
  +
+                                                                           =
  +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
+++

From popserver Sat June  8 03:11:19 GMT 1996
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	nil)
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From: "L. Parker" 
To: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
         Steve VanDevender ,
         "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
         bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: SSRT: Space Access Update no. 64 (DC-XA flight 1!)
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 15:41:17 -0500

>Return-Path: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu
>From: "Chris W. Johnson" 
>To: "Single Stage Rocket Technology News" 
>Subject: SSRT: Space Access Update no. 64 (DC-XA flight 1!)
>Date: Tue, 21 May 96 04:15:51 -0600
>Sender: listserv@zimbazi.cc.utexas.edu
>X-listname: 
>
>
>Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 22:07:50 -0700 (MST)
>From: Donald Doughty 
>To: DC-X 
>Subject: Space Access Update #64 5/18/96 (fwd)
>Reply-To: delta-clipper@europe.std.com
>
>
>
>Subject: Space Access Update #64 5/18/96
>
>                    Space Access Update #64  5/18/96 
>
>                     DC-XA's First Flight Completed 
>             Vehicle Takes Minor Damage In Post-Flight Fire 
>
>                 copyright 1996 by Space Access Society
>
>Saturday, May 18th, 1996 - The DC-XA single-stage rocket experimental 
>vehicle flew this morning for the first time since its handover to NASA 
>last year and major rebuild over the winter.  The test took place at the 
>same White Sands Missile Range, New Mexico site the original DC-X made 
>its eight flights from.  This first post-rebuild flight had originally 
>been scheduled for Friday, but was delayed 24 hours by a faulty sensor 
>on one of the vehicle's four RL-10-a5 rocket engines.  This morning's 
>flight was a minimal test-hop, 800 feet up from the launch stand, then 
>350 feet sideways to over the landing pad, then a vertical descent and 
>landing, total flight time of about a minute.
>
>The flight went as planned until the final landing phase, when the DC-XA 
>descended the last few feet onto the concrete landing pad more slowly 
>than expected.  This final descent phase has been the object of ongoing 
>tweaking dating back to the last several flights of the original DC-X.  
>The target touchdown velocity is around four feet per second; previous 
>touchdowns have varied from two feet per second to as high as fourteen 
>feet per second - that last due to an invalid data problem with a radar 
>altimeter rather than the landing control software, however.
>
>The problem with slow landings is that the vehicle sits in the backwash 
>from the rocket engines too long, and the base of the vehicle can suffer 
>heat damage.  There is some thought being given to landing the potential 
>followon to DC-XA (if McDonnell-Douglas wins the X-33 competition) on an 
>open grid of some sort to reduce backwash, but meanwhile DC-XA lands on 
>a plain concrete slab, and slow landings can cause problems.
>
>This morning's slow landing apparently started a small fire on the 
>exterior of the vehicle.  According to McDonnell-Douglas sources, the 
>fire was promptly extinguished, and the vehicle has been de-fuelled and 
>moved back to its launch stand in the normal manner.  One of the 
>vehicle's four body-flaps (hinged square control surfaces, one on each 
>side of the conical vehicle near its base) was damaged and will have to 
>be replaced.  We're told there is no other obvious damage, but the 
>structure around that body flap will be carefully inspected for possible 
>heat damage.  The DC-XA engineering/flight-test team will be looking 
>into that and into why this landing was slow over the next few days, 
>then implementing fixes.  
>
>There's no telling at this point whether this will push back the next 
>planned flight dates of June 7th and 8th, but our first guess would be 
>that those will slip by a week or two. We'll likely know more in a few 
>days, though. 
>
>A quick bit of editorializing: Discovering and fixing this sort of 
>problem is exactly why we test-fly experimental vehicles.  Fly a little, 
>see what breaks, figure out why, fix it, fly a little more.  We look 
>forward to the DC-XA crew discovering, and solving, more problems as 
>this summer's test series continues.
>
>                                  *end* 
>
>
>
>
>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From popserver Sat June  8 04:09:16 GMT 1996
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	["1906" "Fri" "7" "June" "1996" "21:07:15" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "44" "Energy:momentum ratio" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
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In-Reply-To: <199606062115.AA10293@student.utwente.nl>
References: <199606062115.AA10293@student.utwente.nl>
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Energy:momentum ratio
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:07:15 -0700

Timothy van der Linden writes:
 > Your definition of fuel-efficiency is completely different from mine
 > (momentum:energy-ratio), your f is the same as the ship:fuel-ratio.

There's one problem here.  momentum and energy in conventional units
don't have the same units.  Efficiency is by nature dimensionless.
mass/mass is dimensionless.

 > Momentum/Energy (p/E) ratio:
 > 
 > for photons:    1/c
 >
 > for mass   :    1/c {v/(c-Sqrt[c^2-v^2])} if you know the velocity
 >              or 1/c Sqrt[U(U+2 m c^2)] if you know mass and kinetic energy
 > 
 > where {v/(c-Sqrt[c^2-v^2])} is always bigger than 1
 > (for v->c it goes to 1, for v->0 it goes to infinity)

I don't know where you got this "v / (c - sqrt(c^2 - v^2))" bit.  How
did you derive this?  Why do you think it's correct?

 > So if you have some energy and want to get the most momentum of it you could
 > best use mass, the efficiency is always better.

There's another fundamental flaw in your argument.  You can't convert
energy to momentum.  Momentum is momentum and energy is energy and one
cannot be converted into the other.

When you take something that has momentum, and you get energy out of it
by slowing it down, you are getting the extra energy it has to
compensate for its momentum (m^2 = E^2 - p^2).  If m is constant, then
when p increases E also increases.

 > Note, while the p/E ratio for mass may decrease for increasing v, this does
 > not mean that the total momentum decreases.

In the formalism I'm used to, where v is dimensionless, p/E is exactly
the same as v.  If you want to use conventional units then p * c^2 / E
is exactly the same as v.

Frankly, I don't know where you're coming from on this and your units
don't work out in any useful way (momentum / energy as a measure of
efficiency has units seconds per meter?  What the hell is that?).
Efficiency is dimensionless; it is (energy out) / (energy in).

From popserver Sat June  8 21:57:46 GMT 1996
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	["751" "Sat" "8" "June" "1996" "15:20:37" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "26" "Re: USING A ELECTROMAGNETIC BEAM TO PROPELL A STARSHIP" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: USING A ELECTROMAGNETIC BEAM TO PROPELL A STARSHIP
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 15:20:37 +0100

>>>Of course if your using my hybrid fuel/sail configuration you want a havyer
>>>sail...  ;)
>>
>>Laser forth and maser back?
>
>Doesn't really matter.  On the way out it depends on what lithium reflects
>best.  On the way back probably the same thing, just so you don't need to
>build new beaming facilities.



>>>I worry about EM and secoundary reactions in the plasma.  We are after all
>>>talking about hellish amounts of power.  Even small percentages could
>>>incinerate the engine and ship.  (Even a mile of Lithium might not protect
>>>the crew.)
>>
>>OK, then we're back on one line...
>
>One line?

Eh, I guess my Dutch translation was a bit to litterally:

"We're in line with eachother" or "We're in agreement with each other"


Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Energy:momentum ratio
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 12:36:23 +0100

To Steve:

Words as "efficiency" and "convert" are only used to not make sentences more
elaborate than they could be, I had not thought the word "efficiency" would
create that much trouble, since one only needs an unit-conversion to make
things right.
It is this same origin that makes the word "convert" not 100% at its place.
Even now, I can't find a single word would be satisfying, the only solution
would be to use sentences like your:

  When you take something that has momentum, and you get energy out of it
  by slowing it down, you are getting the extra energy it has to
  compensate for its momentum (m^2 = E^2 - p^2).  If m is constant, then
  when p increases E also increases.

Even then, the words "get energy out of momentum" sounds much like
"convert", "transfer" or "transform" which don't sound very well either.


The derivation is as follows:

The momentum of a particle with velocity v : p=gamma m v
The energy of a particle with velocity v   : E=m c^2 (gamma-1)

p/E = v gamma / (c^2 (gamma-1))

Simplifying the above gives:

p/E = 1/c {v/(c-Sqrt[c^2-v^2])} 

All units are according to S.I.

(When mentioning energy, I only mean kinetic energy)

Timothy

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: USING A ELECTROMAGNETIC BEAM TO PROPELL A STARSHIP
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 09:00:27 -0500

At 3:20 PM 6/8/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>>>>Of course if your using my hybrid fuel/sail configuration you want a havyer
>>>>sail...  ;)
>>>
>>>Laser forth and maser back?
>>
>>Doesn't really matter.  On the way out it depends on what lithium reflects
>>best.  On the way back probably the same thing, just so you don't need to
>>build new beaming facilities.
>
>
>
>>>>I worry about EM and secoundary reactions in the plasma.  We are after all
>>>>talking about hellish amounts of power.  Even small percentages could
>>>>incinerate the engine and ship.  (Even a mile of Lithium might not protect
>>>>the crew.)
>>>
>>>OK, then we're back on one line...
>>
>>One line?
>
>Eh, I guess my Dutch translation was a bit to litterally:
>
>"We're in line with eachother" or "We're in agreement with each other"
>
>
>Timothy

Ah, like "in sync".  Yeah, were together on the basic idea.  Now how do you
boost that much stuff!!

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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References: <199606101036.AA12688@student.utwente.nl>
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Energy:momentum ratio
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 08:58:49 -0700

Timothy van der Linden writes:
 > The derivation is as follows:
 > 
 > The momentum of a particle with velocity v : p=gamma m v
 > The energy of a particle with velocity v   : E=m c^2 (gamma-1)

That's kinetic energy, not total energy.  For many purposes kinetic
energy is not particularly useful.  Most importantly, when I say p/E is
v, I use E to mean total energy (m*c^2*gamma in conventional units).

 > p/E = v gamma / (c^2 (gamma-1))
 > 
 > Simplifying the above gives:
 > 
 > p/E = 1/c {v/(c-Sqrt[c^2-v^2])} 
 > 
 > All units are according to S.I.
 > 
 > (When mentioning energy, I only mean kinetic energy)

If you want to use kinetic energy as a quantity in your relativistic
dynamics problems, be prepared for your analysis to get _a lot_ more
complicated.

I think I went into some detail in my original derivation about how I
analyzed the relativistic dynamics of a ship reacting and ejecting a
quantity of fuel.  You might want to take a look at it again.

The most unlikely result of your derivation is your claim that lower
exhaust velocities are better.  Does that mean that zero exhaust
velocity is best, or is there instead an optimal velocity that is
non-zero?

 > Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Energy:momentum ratio
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 00:06:42 +0100

To Steve,

>If you want to use kinetic energy as a quantity in your relativistic
>dynamics problems, be prepared for your analysis to get _a lot_ more
>complicated.

Yes, I assume you know that I and Rex independently have done such
analysis's. We both have made documents that include some algebra that isn't
always fun to look at. We also came to the conclusion that every fuel
(combined with a Vend of the starship) has its own optimal Vexhaust.
(More about this optimum in a few sentences)

>The most unlikely result of your derivation is your claim that lower
>exhaust velocities are better.  Does that mean that zero exhaust
>velocity is best, or is there instead an optimal velocity that is
>non-zero?

I think you misunderstood the meaning of these formulas.

In essence these formulas are just showing p/E ratios, they tell little
about how they should be use, indeed for self-powered spaceships their use
it limited (will come back on that in a minute), but for beaming stations on
Earth they may be of direct use (that comes in another couple of minutes).

To answer you question about the optimum, "Yes there is an optimum bigger
than zero (and less than c)".

Let me quote a few lines from my HTML-document:

(Keep in mind that this assumes a certain constant Vend of the starship)

   The minimum exists because on the one hand, the higher Vexh the
   worse the energy/momentum ratio of the exhaust mass or because of
   the dumping of excess mass.
   And on the other hand, for low Vexh more mass is needed to get the
   same momentum, this means that unused fuel is used as propellant
   mass (this could easely be changed by increasing the fuel-factor).

The complete document (large) should be here (with Dave):
  http://165.254.130.92/LIT/calc/calc.html


To add some extra confusion ;) or to make things more complete I like to
make clear why for beaming mass would be cheaper (in terms of energy) than
beaming photons.

For self-powered starships low exhaust velocities mean enormous amounts of
propulsion mass to get the same total momentum. As one could imagine, part
of that mass needs to move with the starship during the acceleration phase.
This isn't handy because it makes everything harder to acclerate.

But when one beames from Earth (or another source), it doesn't matter much
how much mass is beamed, since one doesn't have the accelerate-the-mass-with
you-problem (any other terminology?) that I described above for the starship.

For constant momentum (the momentum that the starship needs for a specific
Vend), and decreasing Vbeam the energy levels decrease:

(Vbeam=v=the velocity of the beamed mass)

E = p c {(c-Sqrt[c^2-v^2])/v} 

where {(c-Sqrt[c^2-v^2])/v} decreases for decreasing v

Of course decreasing v means increasing M (gamma*m*v=fixed) but as long as
the total energy decreases we don't care. (Mass is cheaper than energy isn't
it?)

OK, hope that your not confused by all the increases and decreases (and that
I made no mistake in it).

Now a more practical problem, the beam velocity cannot stay low at all
times, since the starship accelerates and the beamed mass needs to catch up
with the ship. Well actually this is not really a problem, only the p/E
ratio gets worse, but it will always be better than when one uses photons.
(It is only the same when mass moving with Vbeam=c)


Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: USING A ELECTROMAGNETIC BEAM TO PROPELL A STARSHIP
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 00:06:50 +0100

>Ah, like "in sync".  Yeah, were together on the basic idea.  Now how do you
>boost that much stuff!!

Ah yes, "in sync" that is what I was looking for.

About your question, we know the answers, all we need is the technology and
the money :))


Tim

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From: David Levine 
To: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com"
	 ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
         "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" ,
         "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" 
To: "rddesign@wolfenet.com" ,
         "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com" ,
        "DotarSojat@aol.com" ,
         "neill@foda.math.usu.edu" ,
         "101765.2200@compuserve.com" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>,
        "MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU" 
To: "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"
	 
Subject: RE: Energy:momentum ratio
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 18:20:55 -0400

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.  Contact your
mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a version
that supports MIME.

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>----------
>From:
>	T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl[SMTP:T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwen
>te.nl]
>The complete document (large) should be here (with Dave):
>  http://165.254.130.92/LIT/calc/calc.html
>


Hi, all.

QUICK NOTE: Had some problems with the virtual server at 165.254.130.92, so
try 165.254.130.90 instead.  I think everything will work much better.  URLs
are
still the same (http://165.254.130.90/LIT/calc/calc.html for example)

For those of you FTPing documents, please use 165.254.130.90 now.

Thanks.

David

(If anyone else wants an FTP account, let me know...)


------ =_NextPart_000_01BB56F9.92B6CE80--

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: USING A ELECTROMAGNETIC BEAM TO PROPELL A STARSHIP
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 07:47:54 -0500

At 12:06 AM 6/11/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>>Ah, like "in sync".  Yeah, were together on the basic idea.  Now how do you
>>boost that much stuff!!
>
>Ah yes, "in sync" that is what I was looking for.
>
>About your question, we know the answers, all we need is the technology and
>the money :))
>
>Tim

All in all we've done fairly well.  Most people still talk about starships
as being impossible or talking centuries to get anywhere.  We've at least
figured out a technically plausible way to do it in a decade or two.  

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: Opps
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 08:23:25 -0500

I uploaded new improved versions of the starship Design main table of
contents and Explorer class TOC.

Dave
They take up less room on your drive.

Others.
The image map TOC's don't work. 

Sorry.
Better luck next time.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu"
	 ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
         "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
         "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" 
To: "rddesign@wolfenet.com" ,
         "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com" ,
         "DotarSojat@aol.com" ,
         "sl0c8@cc.usu.edu" ,
         "MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU" ,
         "101765.2200@compuserve.com" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>
To: "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" 
Subject: RE: Opps
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 09:28:33 -0400

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.  Contact your
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>Others.
>The image map TOC's don't work. 

I will take a look at them.

-David


------ =_NextPart_000_01BB5841.86EF5150--

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David Levine 
Cc: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
         "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu"		 ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
         "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
         "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" 
Subject: RE: Opps
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 08:36:01 -0500

At 9:28 AM 6/12/96, David Levine wrote:
>>Others.
>>The image map TOC's don't work. 
>
>I will take a look at them.
>
>-David

Thanks!

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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	["3269" "Thu" "13" "June" "1996" "12:38:20" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "79" "NASA Begins Study on Reliability of Space Life Support System" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
         David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: NASA Begins Study on Reliability of Space Life Support System
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 12:38:20 +0100

This is from yesterday's NASA newsletter, it may be interesting to some.

Timothy

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Michael Braukus
Headquarters, Washington, DC                  June 12, 1996
(Phone: 202/358-1979)

Joel Wells
Kennedy Space Center, FL
(Phone: 407/867-2468)

RELEASE:  96-120

NASA BEGINS STUDY ON RELIABILITY OF SPACE LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEM

     Life scientists at NASA's Kennedy Space Center, FL, 
began the Agency's most realistic ground test to date on 
plants that will produce food and oxygen for long-duration 
space missions.

     During the experiment, researchers from NASA and Dynamac 
Corp., FL, will evaluate the ability of 128 potato plants and 
6,500 wheat seeds to produce food and oxygen, purify water 
and recycle waste products.  The landmark study, part of 
NASA's development of a Controlled Ecological Life Support 
System, is scheduled for a full year and could last up to 
three years.  This experiment marks the first time two crop 
species have been grown simultaneously in Kennedy's Biomass 
Production Chamber (BPC).

     "We recently completed a study with potatoes that lasted 
about 14 months," explained NASA agricultural engineer John 
Sager.  RIf we plan to live in space though, we must 
determine if this system will be as successful over longer 
periods of time.S

     Through photosynthesis, the wheat and potatoes will 
produce food, distilled water and oxygen, while removing 
carbon dioxide from the air.  Gradually, researchers will 
introduce plant and human waste streams from a RbioreactorS 
to the BPC, and through transpiration the plants will remove 
and use nutrients from the waste effluent.  RIn effect, 
plants may be the air and water filters of the space age,S 
said Ray Wheeler, NASA plant physiologist.

     The BPC, a retrofitted test chamber, has an interior 
composed of two plant chambers.  A hydroponics system is used 
to supply the plants with nutrients and water.  Tanks outside 
the chamber store the water and nutrient solution and special 
lamps provide artificial sunlight.  The controlled 
environment imitates the confined and resource deficient 
conditions of space.

     Scientists have been using the chamber since 1987, 
observing a variety of crops including soybeans, lettuce, 
tomatoes, white potatoes and wheat.  This study focuses on 
wheat and potato production because of their high 
productivity and performance in previous trials.

     "We hope to see the same positive results and high 
yields in this study that we have seen in the preceding 
studies," said Dynamic plant physiologist Gary Stutte.  RThis 
research brings us one step closer to supporting life in 
space for extended periods.S

                    - end -

NASA press releases and other information are available 
automatically by  sending an Internet electronic mail message 
to domo@hq.nasa.gov.  In the body  of the message (not the 
subject line) users should type the words "subscribe
press-release" (no quotes).  The system will reply with a 
confirmation via  E-mail of each subscription.  A second 
automatic message will include additional information on
the service.  NASA releases also are available via CompuServe
using the command GO NASA.

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	["2665" "Fri" "14" "June" "1996" "10:01:54" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "80" "Post singularity society" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: Post singularity society
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 10:01:54 -0500

Hi, thought you might be interested in a web site that came up in a
conversation I'm having in another group.

Kelly


>Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:54:47 -0500
>To:jensen-sf@netcom.com
>From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
>Subject:Post singularity society
>Cc:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
>
>At 12:56 AM 6/14/96, KellySt@aol.com wrote:
>>---------------------
>>Forwarded message:
>>From:	mwiik@netcom.com (Michael Wiik)
>>To:	JohnFrance@aol.com
>>CC:	jensen-sf@netcom.com
>>Date: 96-06-12 15:32:32 EDT
>
>>> Maybe Michael Jackson has achieved a one-person singularity, which to us
>>> lesser mortals is not perceivable.
>
>Well he is looking kind of post human,--- or something.
>
>>> As you can tell I never got the book definition of singularity.  Where can
>>I
>>> find it described?  And how many people have to simultaneously attain this
>>> state for it to count?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>
>>Vinge's original essay is on the web. Try:
>>
>>http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/%7Ejxm/singlar.html
>>
>>	-Mike
>>
>
>A very interesting and thought provolking essay.  In some ways
>conservative.  I kept remembering how current top end supercomputers have
>more capacity and power then the human brain, and designs for ones with a
>thousand times the capacity and power are being researched.  He was still
>talking about how many orders of magnitude we are from human equivelent
>designs.
>
>Makes you wounder what a creature with vastly more abilities then human
>would be like, or what a society with them in it would be like.  Certainly
>our arguments about haves vs have nots become a lot stranger.  At what
>point do the haves view unenhanced, or even uneducated humans as
>defective, like we consider the retarded?  Would we simply order the ill
>educated, low natural inteligence, poor and self destructive to accept
>upgrades?  Would ultra computers and ultra humans know enough about
>insanity, abuse adaptation, etc.. that they could fource broken minds back
>to well adjustment?  If the minds were to far gone or biologically
>disabled; wWould they be institutionalized or at least put under constant
>monitoring?
>
>What about the third world?  They think we're pretty freaky now.  What if
>we start to radicaly change.  Would they deside we were no longer human?
>
>Just a few thoughts.
>
>Kelly
>
>


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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	["2001" "Fri" "14" "June" "1996" "10:41:40" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "40" "Hey Dave's company showed up in Istambul" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: Hey Dave's company showed up in Istambul
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 10:41:40 -0500

I was browzing through the http://habitat.apple.com/technology.html artical
(Part of the Apple WEB site on the U.N. problems of the cities conference
in Istanbul) and ran across this sum artical.  Sounds like Dave's boss is
playing in Turkey.

Kelly

==========================================================================
The role of information technology in urban development
             Recent developments in information technology, in conjunction
             with the liberalization of trade and the free flow of capital on a
             global scale, are bringing about radical changes to the roles and
             functions of cities.

             Robert Zangrillo, the CEO of InterWorld, a leading Internet
             technology company based in New York City, said new
             communications technology often makes information much more
             widely accessible, thereby accelerating processes of change, new
             issues of social cohesion and personal security. "Those
             governments that make the necessary investments in information
             technology and infrastructure, and empower their citizens to make
             effective use of such technology, can expect to experience
             tremendous growth in industry, trade and commerce," he said.

             Zangrillo said that never before has the possibility of a "global
             village" been so close to being real. "The new technology of the
             Internet has made it possible for people around the world to reach
             out and communicate with others, share ideas, and access valuable
             information to improve their lives."


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Sat June 15 05:38:04 GMT 1996
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	["1152" "Sat" "15" "June" "1996" "00:19:30" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "32" "Re: Post singularity society" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Post singularity society
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 00:19:30 +0100

>>What about the third world?  They think we're pretty freaky now.  What if
>>we start to radicaly change.  Would they deside we were no longer human?
>>
>>Just a few thoughts.
>>
>>Kelly

Yes, we touched this earlier, worrying if we could control them, me
suggesting to create a virtual world to keep them in, so that they could
never do us any harm, but us allowing to look inside to see how they
"performed".

One should consider what abilities one would like to have, speaking 20
languages fluently? Being able to compute the most difficult mathematical
problems, figuring out the laws of the universe? Or how to love, to life in
this world among and with others?

I assume most of us are looking for a world that offers freedom (in all
ways), eventually such a world will exist, the only problem then will be:
 What to choose...


Another viewpoint is this:
Today we are wondering, how should we treat nature, our origin and mother?
In a few decades we need to take care of our children, they need upbringing,
are we able to give them that? On the other hand, children can help to
understand oneself better.


Just some other thoughts...

Timothy

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From: "L. Parker" 
To: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
        bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: SSRT: Space Access Update no. 65
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 18:57:26 -0500

I know this is late to be forwarding this message, but there is a chance
that this is will be late coming up for a vote, please try to contact your
Representative if you can.


>Return-Path: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu
>From: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu (Chris W. Johnson)
>To: "Single Stage Rocket Technology News" 
>Subject: SSRT: Space Access Update no. 65
>Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 16:25:07 -0600
>Sender: listserv@zimbazi.cc.utexas.edu
>X-listname: 
>
>
>
>From: hvanderbilt@BIX.com (hvanderbilt on BIX)
>Newsgroups: sci.space.policy
>Subject: Space Access Update #65  6/10/96
>Date: 11 Jun 96 06:13:58 GMT
>Organization: Delphi Internet Services Corporation
>Lines: 106
>
>
>                    Space Access Update #65  6/10/96
>                 Copyright 1996 by Space Access Society
>_______________________________________________________________________
>
>We have tons of news we haven't yet written up properly, and we won't
>do it justice in this issue, alas - we have a last-second alert to
>support reusable rocket funding in the Senate DOD Appropriations
>markup scheduled for 9:30 am eastern on Wednesday the 12th.  If we get
>this out tonight, some of you at least will have a chance to get in
>those faxes and phone calls by Tuesday night.
>
>Meanwhile, forgive the hasty nature of the news summary included.
>_______________________________________________________________________
>
>
>                            News Summary
>
> - DC-XA Recovers From First Flight Fire, Flies Twice In Two Days June
>   7th-8th, Next Flight Scheduled June 26th.
>
> - New X-34 Project Goes To... Orbital Sciences.  (We are not impressed.)
>
>We'll have a lot more to say on both these subjects, on the X-33
>downselect, and on various NASA and DOD doings later this week.  A lot
>is happening these days, very little of it quick to explain, alas.
>
>__________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>Activist Alert: Senate DOD Appropriations Markup,
>                Wednesday June 12th, 9:30 am.
>
>If one of your Senators is on the Senate Appropriations Committee's
>National Security (DOD) Subcommittee (see attached list at end), we're
>asking you to call or fax their Washington office before Wednesday
>morning and ask them to support $50 million for DOD reusable rocket work
>at USAF Phillips Labs in Fiscal Year 1997 (FY'97 begins October 1 1996).
>
>As usual, if you do call or fax, be brief and be polite; the overworked
>staffers will appreciate it.
>
>If you call, tell them who you are ("Hi, I'm Joe Smith from their Senator's state>") and what you want ("I'm calling about something
>I'd like to see supported in the Defense Appropriations markup").  They
>may switch you to another staffer (more likely to that staffer's
>voicemail) or they may ask you what those things you want are.  If they
>ask, tell them you support $50 million in funding for reusable rocket
>work at USAF Phillips Labs.  If they have any questions, answer them as
>best you can; if not, thank them for their time and ring off.  If you end
>up with another staffer's voicemail, repeat the whole message of who you
>are, where you want something done, and what it is you want, then thank
>'em for their time and ring off.
>
>If you fax, keep it to one page, lead off with what you want (as above),
>and then follow up with a paragraph or two of why you think these things
>are worth funding if you're so inclined.
>
>(The Phillips Labs reusable rocket work strikes us as a prime example of
>"dual-use" technology - cheaper more timely access to space benefits all
>users, military and civilian.)
>
>
> Senate Appropriations Subcommittee, National Security Subcommittee
>
>                                          voice       fax
> Sen. Hatfield, Mark (R OR)         1-202-224-3753 1-202-224-0276
> (chair, full SAC)
>
> Sen. Byrd, Robert (D WV)           1-202-224-3954 1-202-224-4025
> (Ranking Minority Member, full SAC)
>
> Sen. Stevens, Ted (R AK)           1-202-224-3004 1-202-224-1044
> (chair, SAC NatSec Sub)
>
> Sen. Inouye, Daniel (D HI)         1-202-224-3934 1-202-224-6747
> (Ranking Minority Member, SAC NatSec Sub)
>
> Sen. Cochran, Thad (R MS)          1-202-224-5054 1-202-224-3576
> Sen. Gramm, Phil (R TX)            1-202-224-2934 1-202-228-2856
> Sen. Domenici, Pete V. (R NM)      1-202-224-6621 1-202-224-7371
> Sen. McConnell, Mitch (R KY)       1-202-224-2541 1-202-224-2499
> Sen. Specter, Arlen (R PA)         1-202-224-4254 1-202-224-1893
> Sen. Bond, Christopher (R MO)      1-202-224-5721 1-202-224-8149
> Sen. Mack, Connie (R FL)           1-202-224-5274 1-202-224-8022
> Sen. Shelby, Richard C. (R AL)     1-202-224-5744 1-202-224-3416
> Sen. Hollings, Ernest (D SC)       1-202-224-6121 1-202-224-4293
> Sen. Johnston, J. Bennett (D LA)   1-202-224-5824 1-202-224-2952
> Sen. Leahy, Patrick (D VT)         1-202-224-4242 1-202-224-3595
> Sen. Harkin, Thomas (D IA)         1-202-224-3254 1-202-224-7431
> Sen. Lautenberg, Frank (D NJ)      1-202-224-4744 1-202-224-9707
>
>__________________________________________________________________________
>
> Space Access Society      "Reach low orbit and you're halfway to anywhere
> 4855 E Warner Rd #24-150               in the Solar System."
> Phoenix AZ 85044                               - Robert A. Heinlein
> 602 431-9283 voice/fax
> www.space-access.org                     "You can't get there from here."
> space.access@space-access.org                          - Anonymous
>
> - Permission granted to redistribute the full and unaltered text of this -
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>
>
>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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	["5689" "Sun" "16" "June" "1996" "19:00:20" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@gnt.net" nil "133" "SSRT: DC-XA flight 2 PR, Preliminary note on flight 3" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: "L. Parker" 
To: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
        bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: SSRT: DC-XA flight 2 PR, Preliminary note on flight 3
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 19:00:20 -0500

>Return-Path: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu
>From: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu (Chris W. Johnson)
>To: "Single Stage Rocket Technology News" 
>Subject: SSRT: DC-XA flight 2 PR, Preliminary note on flight 3
>Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 15:10:19 -0600
>Sender: listserv@zimbazi.cc.utexas.edu
>X-listname: 
>
>
>A new version of the DC-XA flight 2 movie is available from:
>
>        http://gargravarr.cc.utexas.edu/delta-clipper/dcxa-flight-2/index.html
>        ftp://ftp.utexas.edu/pub/ssrt/images/dcxa-flight-2/
>
>Chris Cooley has redigitized the NASA video and reduced the size of the
>movie to 4.2 MB, including the soundtrack. Also to be found at those
>locations is a movie of a computer simulation of flight 2 that was aired
>shortly before the actual flight. That's only 1.2 MB. Both are in QuickTime
>format. QuickTime implementation for Mac and Windows can be found at:
>
>        http://quicktime.apple.com/qt/sw/sw.html
>
>BTW, we'd also be offering the flight 3 video, but it appears that NASA TV
>didn't carry it.
>
>----Chris
>
>Chris W. Johnson
>
>Email: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu
>URL:   http://gargravarr.cc.utexas.edu/
>
>"It is only now beginning to dawn on us that an American city with its
>immense freeway and parking infrastructure resembles not so much a city
>of the 21st century as a city which has suffered saturation bombing."
>--Wolfgang Zuckermann
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>NEWS RELEASE
>
>For Immediate Release
>
>Contact:  Jim Spellman (619) 379-2503 e-mail: WSpaceport@aol.com
>
>DC-XA SUCCESSFULLY LAUNCHED Flight Dedicated to Lt.General Daniel
>O.Graham, "father" of SSTO concept "Turnaround" Flight scheduled this
>afternoon
>
>WHITE SANDS SPACE HARBOR, NM (June 7) --  The McDonnell Douglas Delta
>Clipper eXperimental Advanced (DC-XA) vehicle successfully lifted off
>and flew a short test flight at 9:15 a.m. PDT this morning.  It was the
>second test of the newly redesigned single stage to orbit (SSTO)
>reusable launch vehicle since its last flight, which occurred May 18.
>
>The one-minute flight -- with the callsign "Clipper Graham" in honor of
>the late Lt. General Daniel O. Graham, the "father" of the SSTO concept
>who passed away last December of cancer -- flew to a height of
>approximately 1,600 feet, and translated (moved sideways) 350 feet
>before descending to the desert floor for a soft landing under rocket
>power.
>
>Preliminary indications are that the vehicle performed flawlessly, and
>is now being "turned around" (serviced) for another test flight later
>this afternoon -- thereby demonstrating the DC-XA's "airline-type"
>operation.
>
>The DC-XA is an upgraded version of the DC-X, which flew eight times
>between 1993 and 1995.  Developed by McDonnell Douglas Aerospace and
>NASA under a cooperative agreement as part of the Reusable Launch
>Vehicle Technology Program, the DC-XA is being considered for the
>upcoming X-33 RLV program. The X-33 RLV's goal is to ultimately replace
>the current space shuttle launch vehicles by dramatically reducing
>launch costs and creating cheaper access to space.
>
>Formerly called the Delta Clipper, the four-story DC-XA is currently
>conducting a series of unmanned flight tests in New Mexico for NASA.
>The project was conceived to provide NASA's Reusable Launch Vehicle
>Program with an early, small scale flight demonstration of advanced
>technologies required by reusable launch vehicles.   The DC-XA
>incorporates the latest advances in technology, propulsion systems and
>composite materials.
>
>NASA Administrator Daniel S. Goldin announced today that the DC-XA
>flight vehicle was re-named "Clipper Graham" in honor of the late
>Lt.General Daniel O. Graham.
>
>"NASA is committed to developing and demonstrating reusable launch
>vehicle technologies.  Graham was a visionary who championed the promise
>of fully reusable single-stage-to-orbit vehicles at a time when the
>majority of the space community were skeptics.  We're doing this in
>commemoration of his vision in opening the space frontier," Goldin said.
>
>A West Point graduate, Graham served in a number of high military and
>government posts including Deputy Director of the Central Intelligence
>Agency and Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency. He also founded
>and became Chairman of the Space Transportation Association to assure
>continued U.S. leadership and superiority in providing reliable,
>economical space transportation systems.
>
>
>-- 30 --
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>From: hvanderbilt@BIX.com (hvanderbilt on BIX)
>Newsgroups: sci.space.policy
>Subject: DC-XA flies twice in two days
>Date: 9 Jun 96 06:58:26 GMT
>Organization: Delphi Internet Services Corporation
>Lines: 9
>
>
>Just a quick preliminary report; I'm just off driving back from New
>Mexico.  DC-XA flew successfully this afternoon, its second flight in
>26 hours, and third flight since the rebuild from the original DC-X
>configuration.  Next flight is scheduled for late June; they're going
>to take a couple weeks to go over the data.  Mechanically, the ship
>could fly again tomorrow, according to the flight ops people.
>
>           Henry Vanderbilt  hvanderbilt@bix.com
>
>
>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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	nil)
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From: "L. Parker" 
To: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
        bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: SSRT: Flight no. 2 apparently successful; DC-XA renamed
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 19:01:55 -0500

>Return-Path: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu
>From: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu (Chris W. Johnson)
>To: "Single Stage Rocket Technology News" 
>Subject: SSRT: Flight no. 2 apparently successful; DC-XA renamed
>Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:08:37 -0600
>Sender: listserv@zimbazi.cc.utexas.edu
>X-listname: 
>
>
>I haven't found a press release or other formal statement on the second
>(today's) DC-XA flight yet, but judging from the satellite video feed, it
>appears to have been a success. Chris Cooley generously volunteered to tape
>and digitize this morning's flight, and the resulting images and QuickTime
>movie are available from either:
>
>        http://gargravarr.cc.utexas.edu/delta-clipper/dcxa-flight-2/index.html
>        ftp://ftp.utexas.edu/pub/ssrt/images/dcxa-flight-2/
>
>The movie is nearly 11 megabytes in size, so the Web site may well be
>overloaded (I'm using some relatively low-capacity server software at the
>moment), so try the FTP site if the Web site gives you any trouble.
>
>If you need QuickTime viewer software for your platform, see:
>
>        http://quicktime.apple.com/qt/sw/sw.html
>
>----Chris
>
>Chris W. Johnson
>
>Email: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu
>URL:   http://gargravarr.cc.utexas.edu/
>
>"It is only now beginning to dawn on us that an American city with its
>immense freeway and parking infrastructure resembles not so much a city
>of the 21st century as a city which has suffered saturation bombing."
>--Wolfgang Zuckermann
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
>Newsgroups: sci.space.news
>Subject: DC-XA Renamed for Space Pioneer
>Followup-To: sci.space.policy
>Date: 7 Jun 1996 11:28:07 -0700
>Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
>Lines: 42
>
>James Cast
>Headquarters, Washington, DC             June 7, 1996
>(Phone:  202/358-1779)
>
>RELEASE:  96-114
>
>REVOLUTIONARY NEW LAUNCH VEHICLE RENAMED FOR SPACE PIONEER
>
>     NASA Administrator Daniel S. Goldin today announced
>that the Agency's experimental DC-XA flight vehicle -- a
>vertical takeoff and landing rocket ship -- will
>be re-named "Clipper Graham" in honor of the late Lt.
>General Daniel O. Graham.
>
>     "NASA is committed to developing and demonstrating
>reusable launch vehicle technologies.  Graham was a
>visionary who championed the promise of fully reusable
>single-stage-to-orbit vehicles at a time when the majority
>of the space community were skeptics.  We're doing this in
>commemoration of his vision in opening the space frontier,"
>Goldin said.
>
>      Formerly called the Delta Clipper, the four-story DC-
>XA is currently conducting a series of unmanned flight tests
>in New Mexico for NASA.  The project was conceived to
>provide NASA's Reusable Launch Vehicle Program with an
>early, small scale flight demonstration of advanced
>technologies required by reusable launch vehicles.   The DC-
>XA, developed by the Department of Defense, incorporates the
>latest advances in technology, propulsion systems and
>composite materials.
>
>      A West Point graduate, Graham served in a number of
>high military and government posts including Deputy Director
>of the Central Intelligence Agency and Director of the
>Defense Intelligence Agency. He also founded and became
>Chairman of the Space Transportation Association to assure
>continued U.S. leadership and superiority in providing
>reliable, economical space transportation systems.
>
>                        - end -
>
>
>
>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From popserver Mon June 17 15:20:50 GMT 1996
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	["704" "Mon" "17" "June" "1996" "07:44:53" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "21" "Ox" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: Ox
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 07:44:53 -0500

Ran into the following post and woundered how accurate it is.  Anyone know?

Kelly

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>I wonder how much space it takes to keep one in oxegen.<

My figure is @ six liters of algea per person. That could be contained in a
less than 2 meters of clear tubing, wrapp it helicaly around your light and
go for it.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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	["1802" "Mon" "17" "June" "1996" "07:43:07" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "50" "Re: Post singularity society" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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Mime-Version: 1.0
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Post singularity society
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 07:43:07 -0500

At 12:19 AM 6/15/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>>>What about the third world?  They think we're pretty freaky now.  What if
>>>we start to radicaly change.  Would they deside we were no longer human?
>>>
>>>Just a few thoughts.
>>>
>>>Kelly
>
>Yes, we touched this earlier, worrying if we could control them, me
>suggesting to create a virtual world to keep them in, so that they could
>never do us any harm, but us allowing to look inside to see how they
>"performed".
>
>One should consider what abilities one would like to have, speaking 20
>languages fluently? Being able to compute the most difficult mathematical
>problems, figuring out the laws of the universe? Or how to love, to life in
>this world among and with others?

Whats wrong with choosing all of the above?  They are not exclusive.

>I assume most of us are looking for a world that offers freedom (in all
>ways), eventually such a world will exist, the only problem then will be:
> What to choose...
>
>
>Another viewpoint is this:
>Today we are wondering, how should we treat nature, our origin and mother?

Generally welth leads to more interest in keeping your home (and planet)
clean.  Such luxuries are unaffordable by the poor.  Hence the higher
pollution in the third world, versus the developed world.

Huuummm
Of course since I just mentioned my concern that we would start to become
very freaky to the third world.  That may just become an increased source
of friction.  (Then as now.)


Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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	["1650" "Mon" "17" "June" "1996" "10:08:29" "-0400" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "47" "RE: Ox" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
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From: David Levine 
To: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu"
	 ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" 
To: "rddesign@wolfenet.com" ,
        "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com" ,
        "DotarSojat@aol.com" ,
        "sl0c8@cc.usu.edu" ,
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        "101765.2200@compuserve.com" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>
To: "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" 
Subject: RE: Ox
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:08:29 -0400

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.  Contact your
mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a version
that supports MIME.

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Sounds like it came from that Marshall Savage book.
-David

>----------
>From: 	kgstar@most.fw.hac.com[SMTP:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com]
>Sent: 	Monday, June 17, 1996 8:44 AM
>To: 	David Levine; KellySt@aol.com; hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu;
>T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl; stevev@efn.org;
>jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu; zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl; rddesign@wolfenet.com;
>lparker@destin.gulfnet.com; DotarSojat@aol.com; sl0c8@cc.usu.edu;
>MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU; 101765.2200@compuserve.com
>Subject: 	Ox
>
>Ran into the following post and woundered how accurate it is.  Anyone know?
>
>Kelly
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>I wonder how much space it takes to keep one in oxegen.<
>
>My figure is @ six liters of algea per person. That could be contained in a
>less than 2 meters of clear tubing, wrapp it helicaly around your light and
>go for it.
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
>Sr. Systems Engineer
>Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
>(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

------ =_NextPart_000_01BB5C34.EF3085D0--

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David Levine 
Cc: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu"		 ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" 
Subject: RE: Ox
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:19:16 -0500

At 10:08 AM 6/17/96, David Levine wrote:

Probably, I know the author and he's big into the Millenial Projoct group
that the book spawned.  (We frequently argue in posts about the groups
projects.)  From my reading of the savage book he seems to have his data
correct, but he doesn't always seem to know how to apply it.  So I'm hoping
the O2 numbers are correct.  Is so they'ld give a handel on how large our
Oxegen system would need to be.

Kelly



>Sounds like it came from that Marshall Savage book.
>-David
>
>>----------
>>From: 	kgstar@most.fw.hac.com[SMTP:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com]
>>Sent: 	Monday, June 17, 1996 8:44 AM
>>To: 	David Levine; KellySt@aol.com; hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu;
>>T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl; stevev@efn.org;
>>jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu; zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl; rddesign@wolfenet.com;
>>lparker@destin.gulfnet.com; DotarSojat@aol.com; sl0c8@cc.usu.edu;
>>MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU; 101765.2200@compuserve.com
>>Subject: 	Ox
>>
>>Ran into the following post and woundered how accurate it is.  Anyone know?
>>
>>Kelly
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>I wonder how much space it takes to keep one in oxegen.<
>>
>>My figure is @ six liters of algea per person. That could be contained in a
>>less than 2 meters of clear tubing, wrapp it helicaly around your light and
>>go for it.
>>
>>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
>>Sr. Systems Engineer
>>Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
>>(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)
>>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Tue June 18 02:55:41 GMT 1996
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	["1106" "Mon" "17" "June" "1996" "16:45:27" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "28" "Plasma mirror" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: Plasma mirror
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 16:45:27 -0500

Hey guys,
Remember a while back one of the ideas I had on how a microwave sail could
stop itself, was to have the sail focus the microwaves on a plasma mirror.
The ship would use the reflected microwaves to push a braking sail.  The
plasma would be blasted forward for use as a rocket, or just dumped.

Seems the navy lab is now testing a plasma mirror for use in ship board
radar systems.  (Aviation Week June 10/ p 50)  The radar would focus on the
stearable plasma sheet.  The test sheet was 1 cm thick and 60 x 60 cm
square.  They are working on upgrading it to a 1.2 - 2 meter square.  It
bounces microwaves in the 5-20 GHz range and they think similar system
could work up to 50 GHz.  The current unit needs 2 amps and 20 kilovolts to
keep it runing.

Interesting hey?

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Tue June 18 02:56:17 GMT 1996
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	["1849" "Tue" "18" "June" "1996" "00:53:06" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "38" "Re: Post singularity society" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Post singularity society
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 00:53:06 +0100

>>One should consider what abilities one would like to have, speaking 20
>>languages fluently? Being able to compute the most difficult mathematical
>>problems, figuring out the laws of the universe? Or how to love, to life in
>>this world among and with others?
>
>Whats wrong with choosing all of the above?  They are not exclusive.

Indeed, but that was not what I was trying to say. Would you want everything
that is possible at once? Never ever struggle to get something? I know it
sounds tempting at first, but then after a while you may get really bored.
And second, living in this world among and with others doesn't sound like
there is a "chip" for that, it's something that should be unique for every
person.
I'm not saying that nothing should be used, but that I wonder if you really
want to use it all.

>>Another viewpoint is this:
>>Today we are wondering, how should we treat nature, our origin and mother?
>
>Generally welth leads to more interest in keeping your home (and planet)
>clean.  Such luxuries are unaffordable by the poor.  Hence the higher
>pollution in the third world, versus the developed world.
>
>Huuummm
>Of course since I just mentioned my concern that we would start to become
>very freaky to the third world.  That may just become an increased source
>of friction.  (Then as now.)

If these AI's are really so smart and handy, they should be able to create
an nice world for everyone. The term wealth is a bit vague, it should be
possible to create a balanced world (in all ways) that gives everyone enough
space and wealth to be very comfortable. I understand that this may mean
that populations should shrink, I think this is only a temporarily problem.
If the population should increase then the only solution would be to live in
space (or another starsystem) but I'm sure that would solve itself.


Timothy

From popserver Tue June 18 05:17:22 GMT 1996
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To: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
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Subject: Oxigen
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 22:13:39 -0700 (PDT)

>Ran into the following post and woundered how accurate it is.  Anyone know?
>
>Kelly
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>I wonder how much space it takes to keep one in oxegen.<
>
>My figure is @ six liters of algea per person. That could be contained in a
>less than 2 meters of clear tubing, wrapp it helicaly around your light and
>go for it.
>

On the submarine we bled oxigen into the boat at the rate of one cubic foot
per man per hour.

From popserver Wed June 19 02:30:25 GMT 1996
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Post singularity society
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:47:57 -0500

At 12:53 AM 6/18/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>>>One should consider what abilities one would like to have, speaking 20
>>>languages fluently? Being able to compute the most difficult mathematical
>>>problems, figuring out the laws of the universe? Or how to love, to life in
>>>this world among and with others?
>>
>>Whats wrong with choosing all of the above?  They are not exclusive.
>
>Indeed, but that was not what I was trying to say. Would you want everything
>that is possible at once? Never ever struggle to get something? I know it
>sounds tempting at first, but then after a while you may get really bored.
>And second, living in this world among and with others doesn't sound like
>there is a "chip" for that, it's something that should be unique for every
>person.
>I'm not saying that nothing should be used, but that I wonder if you really
>want to use it all.

Old rule of automation.  You can use the systems to do what you alread do
faster, or to do stuff you couldn't do before in the same time.  Right now
most of what used to take up all of human lives takes up virtually no time,
and new things (education, hygene, reading, lierature, science, and other
'frills') have expanded to fill the space.  No doubt if routine education,
bookkeeping, manufacturing and such start to take up no effecive time,
people will do more things with the free time.  

When the old chalenges become simple we'll try something harder.


>>>Another viewpoint is this:
>>>Today we are wondering, how should we treat nature, our origin and mother?
>>
>>Generally welth leads to more interest in keeping your home (and planet)
>>clean.  Such luxuries are unaffordable by the poor.  Hence the higher
>>pollution in the third world, versus the developed world.
>>
>>Huuummm
>>Of course since I just mentioned my concern that we would start to become
>>very freaky to the third world.  That may just become an increased source
>>of friction.  (Then as now.)
>
>If these AI's are really so smart and handy, they should be able to create
>an nice world for everyone. The term wealth is a bit vague, it should be
>possible to create a balanced world (in all ways) that gives everyone enough
>space and wealth to be very comfortable. I understand that this may mean
>that populations should shrink, I think this is only a temporarily problem.
>If the population should increase then the only solution would be to live in
>space (or another starsystem) but I'm sure that would solve itself.
>
>
>Timothy


Don't see the connection.  We have the technology and resources to make a
nice wealthy world for everyone now.  Doesn't mean everyone can or will
join in.  (No we don't need to shrink the population.)

Ah to "..create a balanced world (in all ways).." is a little vague.  But
again resorces and tech arn't the problem now, and certainly wouldn't be
later.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Wed June 19 02:30:26 GMT 1996
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: Fwd: Re: Family SSTO design
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:23:02 -0500

Hi folks,
I ran into a guy whos father may have been the first person to seriously
propose a SSTO launcher.  I had him send me some images he has (attached).
How about we add him to the LIT site?  It would get us some attention!
Dave?

I'll see if I can get more info out of him.

Kelly



>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:32:55 -0400
>From: KellySt@aol.com
>To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
>Subject: Fwd: Re: Family SSTO design
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>
>Content-ID: <0_21944_835057974@emout07.mail.aol.com.232816>
>Content-type: text/plain
>
>
>---------------------
>Forwarded message:
>Subj:    Re: Family SSTO design
>Date:    96-06-15 20:46:42 EDT
>From:    Skidroad
>To:      Kelly St
>
>Here you go.  These are from March of 1960.  Let me know if you'd like more
>info, I've got a bunch of stuff on this one.  Yes, the web site idea is a
>great one, especially since the powers that be do not want to acknowledge
>this as the beginnings of SSTO design.  Thanks very much for your interest,
>I've enjoyed reading your posts throughout these boards.        Skid--------
> Tom Detko
>
>Content-ID: <0_21944_835057974@emout07.mail.aol.com.232817>
>Content-type: image/jpeg;
>	name="SPACE.JPG"
>
>Attachment converted: Macintosh HD:SPACE.JPG (JPEG/JVWR) (0000D685)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Wed June 19 02:40:15 GMT 1996
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	["406" "Tue" "18" "June" "1996" "19:34:05" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "8" "Fwd: Re: Family SSTO design" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
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In-Reply-To: 
References: 
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: Fwd: Re: Family SSTO design
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 19:34:05 -0700

Please don't add 200K attachments to mail messages, especially 200K
BinHexed attachments that typically only Mac users can decode.  Have
some consideration for the people on this list.

I wouldn't complain except I generally download my mail to my home
computer, and messages like these take quite a bit of time.  Having them
show up in a format that I can't do anything with makes it a lot more
annoying.

From popserver Wed June 19 15:40:37 GMT 1996
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	["887" "Wed" "19" "June" "1996" "12:40:27" "+0200" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "21" "Re: Plasma mirror" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Plasma mirror
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:40:27 +0200

Kelly wrote:
>Seems the navy lab is now testing a plasma mirror for use in ship board
>radar systems.  (Aviation Week June 10/ p 50)  The radar would focus on the
>stearable plasma sheet.  The test sheet was 1 cm thick and 60 x 60 cm
>square.  They are working on upgrading it to a 1.2 - 2 meter square.  It
>bounces microwaves in the 5-20 GHz range and they think similar system
>could work up to 50 GHz.  The current unit needs 2 amps and 20 kilovolts to
>keep it runing.

I assume this is a stationary plasma field, that is kept at the ship. How
fast would such a sheet render useless after the power has been cut off?
When we would use it as retro mirror, it NEEDS to be loose from the starship.
We need to scale this thing up to many hundreds of square meters and several
meters thick (the radiation pressure is much higher).

>Interesting hey?

Yes, are you clearvoyant?


Timothy

From popserver Wed June 19 15:41:47 GMT 1996
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	["920" "Wed" "19" "June" "1996" "07:26:17" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "25" "Re: Fwd: Re: Family SSTO design" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Steve VanDevender 
Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39), KellySt@aol.com,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Family SSTO design
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 07:26:17 -0500

At 7:34 PM 6/18/96, Steve VanDevender wrote:
>Please don't add 200K attachments to mail messages, especially 200K
>BinHexed attachments that typically only Mac users can decode.  Have
>some consideration for the people on this list.
>
>I wouldn't complain except I generally download my mail to my home
>computer, and messages like these take quite a bit of time.  Having them
>show up in a format that I can't do anything with makes it a lot more
>annoying.

Thats strange.  I thought the binhex compresion was a standard internet
format.  They uploaded from my home system quick enough.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Wed June 19 15:41:53 GMT 1996
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	["2248" "Wed" "19" "June" "1996" "07:45:15" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "62" "Re: Plasma mirror" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Plasma mirror
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 07:45:15 -0500

At 12:40 PM 6/19/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>Kelly wrote:
>>Seems the navy lab is now testing a plasma mirror for use in ship board
>>radar systems.  (Aviation Week June 10/ p 50)  The radar would focus on the
>>stearable plasma sheet.  The test sheet was 1 cm thick and 60 x 60 cm
>>square.  They are working on upgrading it to a 1.2 - 2 meter square.  It
>>bounces microwaves in the 5-20 GHz range and they think similar system
>>could work up to 50 GHz.  The current unit needs 2 amps and 20 kilovolts to
>>keep it runing.
>
>I assume this is a stationary plasma field, that is kept at the ship. --

On the ship yes, stationary no.  It is used as the moving reflector that
sweeps the beem back and forth.  The artical mentioned it can re-aim in 10
milisec.  (I think.)

>- How fast would such a sheet render useless after the power has been cut off?

Almost as fast as it can be reaimed I'ld guess.

>When we would use it as retro mirror, it NEEDS to be loose from the starship.

I was thinking the ions would be blown out of the plasma sheet as they
interact with the beam.  Since the beam presure would be far greater than
the holding magnetic fields (and we wouldn't want to drag the ship
forward).  The problem would be restoring the plasma as fast as it is lost.
I don't have a feel for what the mass flow rates would need to be.  Then
again we should be able to use the lost plasma as source of thrust.

>We need to scale this thing up to many hundreds of square meters and several
>meters thick (the radiation pressure is much higher).

Yeah, you'ld have a trade off between focusing the microwaves to a small
tight area that would fry  out anything near it.  Or a bigger more defuse
area that would be harder to control.

>
>>Interesting hey?
>
>Yes, are you clearvoyant?
>
>
>Timothy

Who me?  No I just.. 

;)

What can I say.  Great minds think alike.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Wed June 19 15:42:20 GMT 1996
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	["641" "Wed" "19" "June" "1996" "08:32:28" "-0700" "Kevin Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "17" "Re: Fwd: Re: Family SSTO design" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
CC: Steve VanDevender , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@COMPUSERVE.COM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Family SSTO design
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:32:28 -0700

Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
> 
> At 7:34 PM 6/18/96, Steve VanDevender wrote:
> >Please don't add 200K attachments to mail messages, especially 200K
> >BinHexed attachments that typically only Mac users can decode.  Have
> >some consideration for the people on this list.
> >
> Thats strange.  I thought the binhex compresion was a standard internet
> format.  They uploaded from my home system quick enough.
> 
> Kelly

Well, I was gonna say something about this too, but steve beat me to it.
I too am having difficulty decoding your attachment.  can you maybe put it on the 
web site? images are easy to download from there.

Kevin

From popserver Thu June 20 05:01:50 GMT 1996
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	["721" "Wed" "19" "June" "1996" "12:16:12" "-0400" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "21" "RE: Fwd: Re: Family SSTO design" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
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From: David Levine 
To: Steve VanDevender ,
        "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'"
	 
Cc: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu"
	 ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" 
Cc: "rddesign@wolfenet.com" ,
        "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com" ,
        "DotarSojat@aol.com" ,
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        "101765.2200@compuserve.com" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>
Subject: RE: Fwd: Re: Family SSTO design
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:16:12 -0400

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.  Contact your
mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a version
that supports MIME.

------ =_NextPart_000_01BB5DD9.1BAEFD80
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

It is, of course, -possible- to unBinHex something on a PC, but it
-does- take quite a bit of work.
-David

>----------
>From: 	kgstar@most.fw.hac.com[SMTP:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com]
>Thats strange.  I thought the binhex compresion was a standard internet
>format.  They uploaded from my home system quick enough.



------ =_NextPart_000_01BB5DD9.1BAEFD80--

From popserver Thu June 20 05:03:28 GMT 1996
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	["690" "Wed" "19" "June" "1996" "23:00:44" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "16" "Re: Post singularity society" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Post singularity society
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 23:00:44 +0100

Kelly wrote:
>Don't see the connection.  We have the technology and resources to make a
>nice wealthy world for everyone now.  Doesn't mean everyone can or will
>join in.  (No we don't need to shrink the population.)

Many simple things still need to be done by humans, growing food, building
houses etc. Transferring these goods also costs lots of money and human work.
All this makes that many normal Western needs are not free at all, when
energy is free and machines (AIs) do the work then the resources are
available, today these resources are only available to those who have enough
money.
I thus don't see why you can say that technology and resources are not the
problem.


Timothy

From popserver Thu June 20 05:03:29 GMT 1996
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	["623" "Wed" "19" "June" "1996" "23:00:53" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "15" "Re: Fwd: Re: Family SSTO design" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Family SSTO design
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 23:00:53 +0100

Kelly wrote:
>I ran into a guy whos father may have been the first person to seriously
>propose a SSTO launcher.  I had him send me some images he has (attached).
>How about we add him to the LIT site?  It would get us some attention!
>Dave?

Do we really need to worry about in system transfer?
>From all things we talked about, I think that would be the easiest part. I
assume that at the time humankind will build a starship, in solarsystem
travel will be as normal as flying over the ocean (with an airplane).

Timothy

P.S. The images you sent seriously need to be gamma-corrected, they are
almost black at my screen.

From popserver Thu June 20 05:03:44 GMT 1996
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	["2826" "Wed" "19" "June" "1996" "16:30:56" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "58" "Re: Post singularity society" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Post singularity society
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 16:30:56 -0500

At 11:00 PM 6/19/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>Kelly wrote:
>>Don't see the connection.  We have the technology and resources to make a
>>nice wealthy world for everyone now.  Doesn't mean everyone can or will
>>join in.  (No we don't need to shrink the population.)
>
>Many simple things still need to be done by humans, growing food, building
>houses etc. Transferring these goods also costs lots of money and human work.
>All this makes that many normal Western needs are not free at all, when
>energy is free and machines (AIs) do the work then the resources are
>available, today these resources are only available to those who have enough
>money.
>I thus don't see why you can say that technology and resources are not the
>problem.
>
>
>Timothy

Ah, I was referring to resources as in ore, fuel, etc...  We have all the
equipment (give or take) we need.  We have all the raw materials we need.
I specify this because many people assume we fundamentally don't have
enough raw material, food, etc..  Thats it is physically impossible to have
a nice weathy world for all.  I.E. we are doomed, and all civilization will
collapse, or we will survive only by stealing from everyone else.  This is
nonsence, but its geting to be common enough nonsence to worry me, and your
comment about "maybe we need to have fewer people" seemed to suggest it.

As to things that still need to be done by humans (growing food, building
houses etc) the number of humans neccisary to do that is droping rapidly
(bad news if you work in those fields.  Thats A BIG issue in the U.S.).
But the big issues are often cultural.  Everone can by the same equipment.
But often even if poor counties (or rich third world ones) do by it and the
resorces, or even if they are given them.  They can't assimilate and use
them.  The mid east spent a ton importing equip and geting international
contracts.  But then they found their people for cultural reasons
couldn't/wouldn't operate the systems correctly.  All the contracts
vanished.  All the companies left.  It wasn't a mater of training.  They
knew how, they just wouldn't.  Doing what was nessisary for the equipment
was unacceptable to them culturally.

Thats going to be a bigger issue as more technologies and issues get out to
the third world.  They will be forced to deal with things they don't want
to deal with, and may just drop it and not adapt.  But when they stay where
they are, and the rest of the world races past.  They will not blame
themselves.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Thu June 20 05:03:47 GMT 1996
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	["1309" "Wed" "19" "June" "1996" "16:35:35" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "36" "Re: Fwd: Re: Family SSTO design" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Family SSTO design
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 16:35:35 -0500

At 11:00 PM 6/19/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>Kelly wrote:
>>I ran into a guy whos father may have been the first person to seriously
>>propose a SSTO launcher.  I had him send me some images he has (attached).
>>How about we add him to the LIT site?  It would get us some attention!
>>Dave?
>
>Do we really need to worry about in system transfer?
>>From all things we talked about, I think that would be the easiest part. I
>assume that at the time humankind will build a starship, in solarsystem
>travel will be as normal as flying over the ocean (with an airplane).

Well by 2050 it wount be that common.  Also LIT does have a space
development (or whatever its named) section.  Not just a starship design
section.

>Timothy
>
>P.S. The images you sent seriously need to be gamma-corrected, they are
>almost black at my screen.

They seem to be scans, of a snap shot, of posters leaning on a wall.  The
originator has said he'll get better scans, and more data, later.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Thu June 20 05:04:14 GMT 1996
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	["563" "Thu" "20" "June" "1996" "00:47:27" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" "<199606192247.AA06035@student.utwente.nl>" "14" "un-BinHex-ing" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: un-BinHex-ing
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:47:27 +0100

Kevin wrote:
>Well, I was gonna say something about this too, but steve beat me to it.
>I too am having difficulty decoding your attachment.  can you maybe put it
on >the web site? images are easy to download from there.

To those unlucky ones and using windows (is that a pleonasm?) there is a
program called WinCode it is able to en/decode several formats
(BinHex,Base64,UUencode and a few others). Try getting version 2.6.6 its
about 600 kb zipped.

Also the mail-program Windows Eudora decodes BinHex automatically (the light
version of Eudora is free).

Tim

From popserver Thu June 20 05:04:15 GMT 1996
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	["1032" "Thu" "20" "June" "1996" "00:47:32" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "31" "Re: Plasma mirror" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Plasma mirror
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:47:32 +0100

Kelly replied:
>>I assume this is a stationary plasma field, that is kept at the ship. --
>
>On the ship yes, stationary no.  It is used as the moving reflector that
>sweeps the beem back and forth.  The artical mentioned it can re-aim in 10
>milisec.  (I think.)

I meant the latter, so far I think I understand.

>>- How fast would such a sheet render useless after the power has been cut off?
>
>Almost as fast as it can be reaimed I'ld guess.

One other question that I'm thinking of, how fast can it be recreated from
"scratch". I could imagine that it is blown away faster than it can be build.
(We cannot just turn off the maser beam, waiting for the ion-mirror to be
created.)

>I was thinking the ions would be blown out of the plasma sheet as they
>interact with the beam.  Since the beam presure would be far greater than
>the holding magnetic fields

I guess a "soft" attachment to the starship could work

>>Yes, are you clearvoyant?

>What can I say.  Great minds think alike.

Am I sorry I asked....     ;))

Timothy

From popserver Thu June 20 05:26:58 GMT 1996
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	["1052" "Wed" "19" "June" "1996" "22:21:33" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "24" "un-BinHex-ing" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
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In-Reply-To: <199606192247.AA06035@student.utwente.nl>
References: <199606192247.AA06035@student.utwente.nl>
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: un-BinHex-ing
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:21:33 -0700

Timothy van der Linden writes:
 > Kevin wrote:
 > >Well, I was gonna say something about this too, but steve beat me to it.
 > >I too am having difficulty decoding your attachment.  can you maybe put it
 > on >the web site? images are easy to download from there.
 > 
 > To those unlucky ones and using windows (is that a pleonasm?) there is a
 > program called WinCode it is able to en/decode several formats
 > (BinHex,Base64,UUencode and a few others). Try getting version 2.6.6 its
 > about 600 kb zipped.
 > 
 > Also the mail-program Windows Eudora decodes BinHex automatically (the light
 > version of Eudora is free).
 > 
 > Tim

I use Linux and read all my mail using the VM package that runs in GNU
Emacs.  I can unpack MIME messages and uudecode stuff.  I don't have a
binhex utility, and I can't use a binhex utility that runs under
Windows.

If you're going to use MIME attachements, at least use the standard
base64 encoding, or uuencode as a second choice.  No other formats are
either standard or widely available on different machines.

From popserver Thu June 20 12:08:07 GMT 1996
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	["901" "Thu" "20" "June" "1996" "13:27:54" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "19" "In-system vessels" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: In-system vessels
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:27:54 +0100

>>From all things we talked about, I think that would be the easiest part. I
>>assume that at the time humankind will build a starship, in solarsystem
>>travel will be as normal as flying over the ocean (with an airplane).
>
>Well by 2050 it wount be that common.  Also LIT does have a space
>development (or whatever its named) section.  Not just a starship design
>section.

This is an invalid argument, assuming we are going to build a starship
around the year 2050, I'm sure we know rather well how to do in-system
travel, then we also don't worry about a factor 10 more or less of
fuel-costs. (Of course we do worry, but compared to 1E18 watt everything is
small.)
I can't see us building a 1E8 kg starship without being able to fly without
much problems in our own system.
It would be like sailing over the ocean with a four-masts-ship while barely
knowing how to row across the river.

Timothy

From popserver Thu June 20 12:08:08 GMT 1996
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	["3312" "Thu" "20" "June" "1996" "13:28:00" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "67" "Re: Post singularity society" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Post singularity society
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:28:00 +0100

Kelly wrote:

>I.E. we are doomed, and all civilization will
>collapse, or we will survive only by stealing from everyone else.  This is
>nonsence, but its geting to be common enough nonsence to worry me, and your
>comment about "maybe we need to have fewer people" seemed to suggest it.

I wrote the latter because I had in mind that many may want to live a bit
more roomier.

>As to things that still need to be done by humans (growing food, building
>houses etc) the number of humans neccisary to do that is droping rapidly
>(bad news if you work in those fields.  Thats A BIG issue in the U.S.).

I assume that is an upcoming problem for all developed countries.

>But the big issues are often cultural.  Everone can by the same equipment.

Yes, I've that feeling too, I always wonder if people in Third World
countries want to do the work themselves, or that they want us to do the job
for them. I often get the idea that the latter attracts the biggest group.

>But often even if poor counties (or rich third world ones) do by it and the
>resorces, or even if they are given them.  They can't assimilate and use
>them.  The mid east spent a ton importing equip and geting international
>contracts.  But then they found their people for cultural reasons
>couldn't/wouldn't operate the systems correctly.  All the contracts
>vanished.  All the companies left.  It wasn't a mater of training.  They
>knew how, they just wouldn't.  Doing what was nessisary for the equipment
>was unacceptable to them culturally.

Indeed, I've heard several times that as soon as they get their money they
leave and come back when the money is gone. The only way to make them come
back, is to pay them just enough to life one day.
They seem to be happy with what they have. Sure they like new "toys", just
like we do, but they don't find them important enough to work for day and night.
They often have a lot of spare time (or at least we see it as spare time),
the drawback is that their lives are a bit more insecure. (With todays crime
one can doubt that.)
Most people from Western cultures want to or "are forced to" make enough
money to live according to high standards.
Maybe someday most people of undeveloped countries decide to do like us, one
simply cannot force that onto someone. Of course they like what we have, but
most of us like things we don't have (yet).

>Thats going to be a bigger issue as more technologies and issues get out to
>the third world.  They will be forced to deal with things they don't want
>to deal with, and may just drop it and not adapt.  But when they stay where
>they are, and the rest of the world races past.  They will not blame
>themselves.

I'm not sure who they want to blame, it's always easier to blame someone
else, I think they should show some initiatives themselves first.

Maybe we are partly to blame, we buy lots of resources from them, things
they probably will never get back (at least not in usable form). On the
other hand their leaders should be smart enough to regulate that, but it
seems they (and their friends) are the only ones who get the money.

So most of these countries have internal problems, and the poor people know
that it helped more to ask Western countries for aid than to ask their own
governments.

I believe that we generally agree...


Timothy

From popserver Thu June 20 15:15:21 GMT 1996
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	["1380" "Thu" "20" "June" "1996" "07:32:34" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "47" "Re: Plasma mirror" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Plasma mirror
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 07:32:34 -0500

At 12:47 AM 6/20/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>Kelly replied:

>>>- How fast would such a sheet render useless after the power has been
>>>cut off?
>>
>>Almost as fast as it can be reaimed I'ld guess.
>
>One other question that I'm thinking of, how fast can it be recreated from
>"scratch". I could imagine that it is blown away faster than it can be build.
>(We cannot just turn off the maser beam, waiting for the ion-mirror to be
>created.)

True.  We'ld need to know how much mass was neccissary to reflect the beam,
and how fast it would be blown clear.

In general we'ld need to know the specific interaction between the beam and
the plasma cloud.

>>I was thinking the ions would be blown out of the plasma sheet as they
>>interact with the beam.  Since the beam presure would be far greater than
>>the holding magnetic fields
>
>I guess a "soft" attachment to the starship could work
>
>>>Yes, are you clearvoyant?
>
>>What can I say.  Great minds think alike.
>
>Am I sorry I asked....     ;))
>
>Timothy

I fore saw you would be.  ;)

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Thu June 20 15:15:26 GMT 1996
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Post singularity society
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:00:30 -0500

At 1:28 PM 6/20/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>Kelly wrote:
>
>>I.E. we are doomed, and all civilization will
>>collapse, or we will survive only by stealing from everyone else.  This is
>>nonsence, but its geting to be common enough nonsence to worry me, and your
>>comment about "maybe we need to have fewer people" seemed to suggest it.
>
>I wrote the latter because I had in mind that many may want to live a bit
>more roomier.

If that was true we wouldn't be rushing into the cities.  ;)

>>As to things that still need to be done by humans (growing food, building
>>houses etc) the number of humans neccisary to do that is droping rapidly
>>(bad news if you work in those fields.  Thats A BIG issue in the U.S.).
>
>I assume that is an upcoming problem for all developed countries.

And developing.  The green revolution actually increase hunger since it was
so much more productive it put a lot of subsistence farmers out of work.

>>But the big issues are often cultural.  Everone can by the same equipment.
>
>Yes, I've that feeling too, I always wonder if people in Third World
>countries want to do the work themselves, or that they want us to do the job
>for them. I often get the idea that the latter attracts the biggest group.

It varies, but yes a lot of coutries don't understand why groups that do
the work should get more of the reward than groups that do nothing.  That
was a big issue that trashed the law of the sea treaty negotiations years
ago, and stoped sea bottom mining projects in their tracks.  Its been a
constant fear that the same thing could stop space explotation in its
tracks in the near future.

>>But often even if poor counties (or rich third world ones) do by it and the
>>resorces, or even if they are given them.  They can't assimilate and use
>>them.  The mid east spent a ton importing equip and geting international
>>contracts.  But then they found their people for cultural reasons
>>couldn't/wouldn't operate the systems correctly.  All the contracts
>>vanished.  All the companies left.  It wasn't a mater of training.  They
>>knew how, they just wouldn't.  Doing what was nessisary for the equipment
>>was unacceptable to them culturally.
>
>Indeed, I've heard several times that as soon as they get their money they
>leave and come back when the money is gone. The only way to make them come
>back, is to pay them just enough to life one day.
>They seem to be happy with what they have. Sure they like new "toys", just
>like we do, but they don't find them important enough to work for day and
>night.
>They often have a lot of spare time (or at least we see it as spare time),
>the drawback is that their lives are a bit more insecure. (With todays crime
>one can doubt that.)
>Most people from Western cultures want to or "are forced to" make enough
>money to live according to high standards.
>Maybe someday most people of undeveloped countries decide to do like us, one
>simply cannot force that onto someone. Of course they like what we have, but
>most of us like things we don't have (yet).

Yeah they screem when they see how well, and long, we live compared to
them.  But screem just as loud when they have to do the dirty work to get
here.

>>Thats going to be a bigger issue as more technologies and issues get out to
>>the third world.  They will be forced to deal with things they don't want
>>to deal with, and may just drop it and not adapt.  But when they stay where
>>they are, and the rest of the world races past.  They will not blame
>>themselves.
>
>I'm not sure who they want to blame, it's always easier to blame someone
>else, I think they should show some initiatives themselves first.

They blame us.  We have it and woung give it to them for free.

>Maybe we are partly to blame, we buy lots of resources from them, things
>they probably will never get back (at least not in usable form). On the
>other hand their leaders should be smart enough to regulate that, but it
>seems they (and their friends) are the only ones who get the money.

You kind of have it backwards.  Their economies are almost completly
involved around selling us raw materials.  They don't need the ores or
fuel.  They don't have an industry that can use it.  Also in the future it
woun't be valuble.  (what is and isn't a valuble resource changes radically
over time and technology.)  Thier biggest fear is that we (developed world)
will develop alternate sources.  Thats one of the things that trashed the
law of the sea treaty and will be a risk to space development treaties.  If
we develop mining in the solar system.  We will have access to ore and fuel
far more numerous and of far better quality then the third world can sell
to us, and without political or ecological impacts to locals.  So we, and
probably will rapidly, supply all our needs (or theirs for that mater)
cheaper from space.  I.E. we will stop buying from them!  Their economies
will be colapse!

>So most of these countries have internal problems, and the poor people know
>that it helped more to ask Western countries for aid than to ask their own
>governments.

And the governments have found that they can ask for aid, get it, and sell
the materials for cash, or use it as a weapon domestically.

>I believe that we generally agree...
>
>
>Timothy

True.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: In-system vessels
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:02:31 -0500

At 1:27 PM 6/20/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>>>From all things we talked about, I think that would be the easiest part. I
>>>assume that at the time humankind will build a starship, in solarsystem
>>>travel will be as normal as flying over the ocean (with an airplane).
>>
>>Well by 2050 it wount be that common.  Also LIT does have a space
>>development (or whatever its named) section.  Not just a starship design
>>section.
>
>This is an invalid argument, assuming we are going to build a starship
>around the year 2050, I'm sure we know rather well how to do in-system
>travel, then we also don't worry about a factor 10 more or less of
>fuel-costs. (Of course we do worry, but compared to 1E18 watt everything is
>small.)
>I can't see us building a 1E8 kg starship without being able to fly without
>much problems in our own system.
>It would be like sailing over the ocean with a four-masts-ship while barely
>knowing how to row across the river.
>
>Timothy

What I was saying is that LIT has a section (not well traveled but there)
that covers space development, not starship design.  This ship would fit
into that rather then the starship design project.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: David Levine 
To: "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" ,
        "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" 
Cc: "KellySt@aol.com" , "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" ,
        "rddesign@wolfenet.com" 
Cc: "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com" ,
        "DotarSojat@aol.com" ,
        "neill@foda.math.usu.edu" ,
        "101765.2200@compuserve.com" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>,
        "MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU" 
Subject: RE: In-system vessels
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 09:45:35 -0400

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.  Contact your
mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a version
that supports MIME.

------ =_NextPart_000_01BB5E8D.3BAFD780
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As perhaps totally separate from the starship project?  i.e. another
project, in another "universe"?  I've always wanted to have a second
design project based on in-system travel, mainly because it's more
realistic for the near term future...

David


>----------
>From: 	kgstar@most.fw.hac.com[SMTP:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com]
>What I was saying is that LIT has a section (not well traveled but there)
>that covers space development, not starship design.  This ship would fit
>into that rather then the starship design project.
>

------ =_NextPart_000_01BB5E8D.3BAFD780--

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	["287" "Thu" "20" "June" "1996" "19:42:53" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "7" "Re: In-system vessels" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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Subject: Re: In-system vessels
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 19:42:53 +0100

>What I was saying is that LIT has a section (not well traveled but there)
>that covers space development, not starship design.  This ship would fit
>into that rather then the starship design project.

Well then that is fine with me, I just wanted to make clear the difference.

Timothy

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: In-system vessels
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:27:04 -0500

At 7:42 PM 6/20/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>>What I was saying is that LIT has a section (not well traveled but there)
>>that covers space development, not starship design.  This ship would fit
>>into that rather then the starship design project.
>
>Well then that is fine with me, I just wanted to make clear the difference.
>
>Timothy

Ok.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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	["2731" "Thu" "20" "June" "1996" "15:59:53" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "74" "Re: Human numbers" "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
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Status: O
X-Status: 
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: Re: Human numbers
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 15:59:53 -0500

About all that urine...


>Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:20:30 -0700
>From: Al Globus 
>To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
>Subject: Re: Human numbers
>
> water weighs about 9 pounds per gallon, or about four kilograms per gallon.
>7 Kilograms of urine per day works out to less than two gallons.  This seems
>a little high, but not ridiculous.  I suggest you try an experiment for a
>few days and see.  Also, remember that these numbers were generated in
>the high-resource usage 60's.  If you find better numbers, please let
>me know.
>
>   X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com
>   Mime-Version: 1.0
>   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>   Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:17:02 -0500
>   From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
>
>   Hi Al,
>   I'm working up a draft web page for a group thats trying to do some serious
>   analysis of what kind of starships would be possible in the mid 21st
>   century.  As part of that we were doing food consumption numbers and I
>   reffered to your web page table
>    and started to
>   use it.  When some members started to review it, I realized I hadn't looked
>   carfully enough at the numbers.  For example over 7 kilo of urine a day
>   seem rather high to me, not to mention 15-20 kilo of drinking and food
>   related water intakes.  Could you explain?
>
>   Kelly Starks
>
>
>
>   >X-Sender: S9421793@mail.student.utwente.nl
>   >Mime-Version: 1.0
>   >Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 02:00:10 +0100
>   >To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
>   >From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
>   >Subject:
>   >
>   >Hi Kelly,
>   >
>   >I've made time to read your HTML,
>   >
>   >About the "Space Settlement Designer's Corner", I know the numbers there
>   >aren't yours, but 15-20 kg of water as input seems very much. Also peeing
>   >over 7 liters of urine per day seems rather much. Could you explain
>what I'm
>   >overlooking, or am I just some one who use little water?
>   >
>
>
>   ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>   Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
>   Sr. Systems Engineer
>   Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
>   (Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)
>
>   ----------------------------------------------------------------------


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Fri June 28 01:34:31 GMT 1996
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	["1344" "Thu" "27" "June" "1996" "12:43:52" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "37" "Post cold war terrorists " "^From:" nil nil "6" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        Kryswalker@aol.com
Subject: Post cold war terrorists 
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 12:43:52 -0500

Woah!
Anyone read the June 17th Aviation Week articals on potential biological,
chemical, and nuclear terrorist atacks and their liklyhood?  High lights:

- The nerve gas attack in Tokyo last year only maimed 5000 and killed 12.
Thats was becase the dispenser broke.  If it had functioned normally
fatalities could have exceeded 10,000!  They were sending members out to
try to get samples of Ebola.

- Two wacos in Minnisota had produced Ricin (a bean bio toxin) and were
intending to strike local community governments.

- Warhead security in Russia is erratic.  Once they take apart the warheads
the weapons grade material is turned over to their department of energy,
who has little security.

- Estimates are the liklyhood of a US city being hit by a Nuck have
continued to increase since the end of the cold war.

- Estimates plance the amount of weaopns grade material lost or stollen
from Russia as atleast as much as all the weapons grade produced in the
first 3 years of the Manhattan project.



Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Tue Jul  2 04:19:30 GMT 1996
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	["408" "Tue" "2" "July" "1996" "00:25:47" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "14" "Vacation in the US." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Vacation in the US.
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 00:25:47 +0100

Hi All,

Friday July 5th, I'll come and visit the US. I'm staying with Rex for two
weeks, if he not decides to throw me out earlier ;)

Any Emails addressed to me personally can be sent to him:

DotarSojat@aol.com

All Emails concerning Starship Design still can be sent to my own address,
so that I have a copy of what mailed. It may be clear that responces may be
a bit slower than usual.

Thanks, Timothy

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From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
To: Timothy van der Linden 
CC: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
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        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@CompuServe.COM,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Vacation in the US.
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 21:17:23 -0700

Timothy van der Linden wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> Friday July 5th, I'll come and visit the US. I'm staying with Rex for two
> weeks, if he not decides to throw me out earlier ;)

Hey Rex, Where do you live, (I want to see if it is feasible to meet you and Tim)

> 
> Any Emails addressed to me personally can be sent to him:
> 
> DotarSojat@aol.com

What?!? you can't telnet to your account?  Wow, what a bummer.  ;(

Kevin

From popserver Tue Jul  2 15:49:25 GMT 1996
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	["516" "Tue" "2" "July" "1996" "03:24:01" "-0400" "DotarSojat@aol.com" "DotarSojat@aol.com" nil "19" "Re: Vacation in the US." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: DotarSojat@aol.com
To: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,
        kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
cc: KellySt@aol.com, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, neill@foda.math.usu.edu,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, MLEN3097@mercury.gc.peachnet.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Vacation in the US.
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 03:24:01 -0400

To Kevin (or anyone else interested)-

On 7/1/96 at 22:24 EDT, Kevin wrote

>Hey Rex, Where do you live, (I want to see if it is feasible
>to meet you and Tim)

>From July 5 to July 19, Timothy should mostly be at (or near)

      5040 Fernleaf Ct
      Woodbridge, Va 22192     (Telephone: 703/590-1388)

about 30 miles south of Washington, D.C.

For anyone who wants to join us, we have a second guest bed-
room with two more beds, and plenty of floor space for sleep-
ing bags.  First come, first choice. :)

Rex

From popserver Tue Jul  2 15:51:22 GMT 1996
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	["622" "Tue" "2" "July" "1996" "07:59:06" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "23" "Re: Vacation in the US." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Vacation in the US.
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 07:59:06 -0500

At 12:25 AM 7/2/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>Friday July 5th, I'll come and visit the US. I'm staying with Rex for two
>weeks, if he not decides to throw me out earlier ;)

Whoa, surprize.  Hope you like the place.  Pity you missed all the
activities on the 4th.

Have fun.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Tue Jul  2 15:51:24 GMT 1996
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	["1091" "Tue" "2" "July" "1996" "08:01:34" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "39" "Re: Vacation in the US." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: DotarSojat@aol.com
Cc: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,
        kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, KellySt@aol.com, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        MLEN3097@mercury.gc.peachnet.edu, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Vacation in the US.
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 08:01:34 -0500

At 3:24 AM 7/2/96, DotarSojat@aol.com wrote:
>To Kevin (or anyone else interested)-
>
>On 7/1/96 at 22:24 EDT, Kevin wrote
>
>>Hey Rex, Where do you live, (I want to see if it is feasible
>>to meet you and Tim)
>
>>From July 5 to July 19, Timothy should mostly be at (or near)
>
>      5040 Fernleaf Ct
>      Woodbridge, Va 22192     (Telephone: 703/590-1388)
>
>about 30 miles south of Washington, D.C.
>
>For anyone who wants to join us, we have a second guest bed-
>room with two more beds, and plenty of floor space for sleep-
>ing bags.  First come, first choice. :)
>
>Rex


Pity I don't still live in work in Reston Va. (about 30 miles west of
D.C.), or I'ld drop in.  We could make it a LIT convention.

Tim, how did you come to be visiting the U.S.?

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Tue Jul  2 21:16:39 GMT 1996
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	["663" "Tue" "2" "July" "1996" "16:10:09" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "21" "SEDS LINK" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: SEDS LINK
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 16:10:09 -0500

both LIT in general and the Starship design homepage now are shown in the
SEDS (Students for the Exploration and Development of Space) 'future
visions' links page.

http://www.seds.org/galaxy/links-visions.html

Guess we should spruce it up a bit.  They are are fairly bit site in the
space advocacy sites.  (Nice site by the way!)

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Tue Jul  2 21:26:47 GMT 1996
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	["1755" "Tue" "2" "July" "1996" "17:22:24" "-0400" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "50" "RE: SEDS LINK" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BB683B.0A255AC0"
From: David Levine 
To: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu"
	 ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" 
To: "rddesign@wolfenet.com" ,
        "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com" ,
        "DotarSojat@aol.com" ,
        "sl0c8@cc.usu.edu" ,
        "MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU" ,
        "101765.2200@compuserve.com" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>
To: "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" 
Subject: RE: SEDS LINK
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 17:22:24 -0400

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.  Contact your
mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a version
that supports MIME.

------ =_NextPart_000_01BB683B.0A255AC0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Not to steal your thunder, but actually we've been on that page since
before we were at SunSITE - I've maintained some contact with them
to let them know of URL updates every now and then.

-David

>----------
>From: 	kgstar@most.fw.hac.com[SMTP:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com]
>Sent: 	Tuesday, July 02, 1996 5:10 PM
>To: 	David Levine; KellySt@aol.com; hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu;
>T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl; stevev@efn.org;
>jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu; zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl; rddesign@wolfenet.com;
>lparker@destin.gulfnet.com; DotarSojat@aol.com; sl0c8@cc.usu.edu;
>MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU; 101765.2200@compuserve.com
>Subject: 	SEDS LINK
>
>both LIT in general and the Starship design homepage now are shown in the
>SEDS (Students for the Exploration and Development of Space) 'future
>visions' links page.
>
>http://www.seds.org/galaxy/links-visions.html
>
>Guess we should spruce it up a bit.  They are are fairly bit site in the
>space advocacy sites.  (Nice site by the way!)
>
>Kelly
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
>Sr. Systems Engineer
>Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
>(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

------ =_NextPart_000_01BB683B.0A255AC0--

From popserver Tue Jul  2 21:46:56 GMT 1996
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	["2115" "Tue" "2" "July" "1996" "16:39:43" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "62" "RE: SEDS LINK" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David Levine 
Cc: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu"		 ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" 
Subject: RE: SEDS LINK
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 16:39:43 -0500

Humm?
I go there everyonce in a while and didn't remember us being listed there?
Oh well.  Eiather way I would like to get the New LIT stuff working and
uploaded soon.  Its been a long time since the old LIT site has been
updated or really active, and I don't want it to seem dead.

Anyway I'm off on vacation until next week.  So I'll think about it then.

Kelly


At 5:22 PM 7/2/96, David Levine wrote:
>Not to steal your thunder, but actually we've been on that page since
>before we were at SunSITE - I've maintained some contact with them
>to let them know of URL updates every now and then.
>
>-David
>
>>----------
>>From: 	kgstar@most.fw.hac.com[SMTP:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com]
>>Sent: 	Tuesday, July 02, 1996 5:10 PM
>>To: 	David Levine; KellySt@aol.com; hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu;
>>T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl; stevev@efn.org;
>>jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu; zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl; rddesign@wolfenet.com;
>>lparker@destin.gulfnet.com; DotarSojat@aol.com; sl0c8@cc.usu.edu;
>>MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU; 101765.2200@compuserve.com
>>Subject: 	SEDS LINK
>>
>>both LIT in general and the Starship design homepage now are shown in the
>>SEDS (Students for the Exploration and Development of Space) 'future
>>visions' links page.
>>
>>http://www.seds.org/galaxy/links-visions.html
>>
>>Guess we should spruce it up a bit.  They are are fairly bit site in the
>>space advocacy sites.  (Nice site by the way!)
>>
>>Kelly
>>
>>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
>>Sr. Systems Engineer
>>Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
>>(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)
>>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Tue Jul  2 21:51:59 GMT 1996
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	["391" "Tue" "2" "July" "1996" "16:44:47" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "12" "SSTO contract annoucement" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
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        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: SSTO contract annoucement
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 16:44:47 -0500

Lockheed Martin Skunk Works has been chosen to construct the X-33.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Tue Jul  2 21:52:01 GMT 1996
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	["3015" "Tue" "2" "July" "1996" "16:48:04" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@gnt.net" nil "77" "SSRT: Vice President to Announce X-33 Builder July 2nd" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: "L. Parker" 
To: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
        bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: SSRT: Vice President to Announce X-33 Builder July 2nd
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 16:48:04 -0500

>Return-Path: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu
>From: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu (Chris W. Johnson)
>To: "Single Stage Rocket Technology News" 
>Subject: SSRT: Vice President to Announce X-33 Builder July 2nd
>Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 14:48:01 -0600
>Sender: listserv@zimbazi.cc.utexas.edu
>X-listname: 
>
>
>---------
>
>From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
>Newsgroups: sci.space.news
>Subject: Vice President Gore To Announce Builder of the X-33
>Followup-To: sci.space.policy
>Date: 28 Jun 1996 13:50:30 -0700
>Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
>Lines: 50
>
>James Cast
>Headquarters, Washington, DC                  June 28, 1996
>(Phone:  202/358-1779)
>
>Franklin O'Donnell
>Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
>(Phone:  818/354-5011)
>
>NOTE TO EDITORS:  N96-44
>
>VICE PRESIDENT TO ANNOUNCE BUILDER OF REUSABLE LAUNCH VEHICLE
>
>     America will come a step closer to having a
>revolutionary new reusable launch vehicle -- called the X-33
>-- when Vice President Albert Gore announces the selection of
>the company that will design, fabricate and flight test the
>new space vehicle.
>
>     Vice President Gore will make the announcement July 2,
>from NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), Pasadena, CA.
>Coverage of the announcement will be carried on NASA
>Television beginning approximately 12:15 p.m. PDT.
>
>     At approximately 1:15 p.m. PDT, NASA Administrator
>Daniel S. Goldin and Gary Payton, Director of NASA's Reusable
>Launch Vehicle Program, will hold a press conference to
>explain the objectives of the program and why this new
>vehicle will be commercially efficient and profitable for
>American industry.
>
>     The first flight for the X-33 is scheduled for March
>1999.  More rigorous flight tests and operational
>demonstrations, including completion of at least a dozen
>flights, are scheduled by December 1999.
>
>     The announcement and press conference will be broadcast
>live on NASA Television with two-way question and answer
>capability from participating NASA locations.  NASA
>Television is carried on Spacenet-2, transponder 5, channel
>9, at 69 degrees West longitude, frequency 3880.0 MHz, audio
>6.8 Megahertz.
>
>     Media representatives planning to attend the event
>should contact the Vice President's press office for
>accreditation. Requests for accreditation should be made on
>the letterhead of the news organization and faxed to
>Mr. Corey Black at 310/458-5347. The phone number for the
>Vice President's press office for this event is 310/458-4287.
>
>                    -end-
>
>
>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From popserver Tue Jul  2 22:57:37 GMT 1996
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	["1065" "Wed" "3" "July" "1996" "00:54:02" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "31" "Re: Vacation in the US." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Vacation in the US.
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 00:54:02 +0100

Kelly wrote:
>Pity I don't still live in work in Reston Va. (about 30 miles west of
>D.C.), or I'ld drop in.  We could make it a LIT convention.

I already secretly checked the distance, 1300 kilometers from you to Rex, as
the crow flies.

>Tim, how did you come to be visiting the U.S.?

After having long Emails with Rex, he invited me. We seem to have so many
similarities that it almost outnumbers any odds.

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

>>Friday July 5th, I'll come and visit the US. I'm staying with Rex for two
>>weeks, if he not decides to throw me out earlier ;)
>
>Whoa, surprize.  Hope you like the place.  Pity you missed all the
>activities on the 4th.

I yesterday saw a programme about that, I had heard of July 4th, but hadn't
remembered it when I booked the flight.
The TV-programme said it wasn't a big festival, only some simple fairs,
families visiting eachother or having a picnic. I'm not sure where they did
the shooting, it wasn't in a big city.

>Have fun.

Thanks, I certainly will.

Tim

From popserver Wed Jul  3 03:12:02 GMT 1996
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From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
To: Timothy van der Linden 
CC: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: July 4th
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 18:01:47 -0700

Timothy van der Linden wrote:
> 
> Kelly wrote:
> >Pity I don't still live in work in Reston Va. (about 30 miles west of
> >D.C.), or I'ld drop in.  We could make it a LIT convention.

but where any three gather in LIT's name... Ooops sorry, wrong group.  ;)

> >Whoa, surprize.  Hope you like the place.  Pity you missed all the
> >activities on the 4th.
> 
> I yesterday saw a programme about that, I had heard of July 4th, but hadn't
> remembered it when I booked the flight.
> The TV-programme said it wasn't a big festival, only some simple fairs,
> families visiting eachother or having a picnic. I'm not sure where they did
> the shooting, it wasn't in a big city.

Well, I don't know who did that programme, but I think July 4th is just about the
Biggest holiday we have (says a lot about us actually) ;)  
Anyway, I'm sure you'll get to see plenty of Fireworks on July 5th.

Kevin

From popserver Wed Jul  3 23:01:17 GMT 1996
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: July 4th
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 00:56:45 +0100

Kevin wrote:
>Well, I don't know who did that programme, but I think July 4th is just about
>the Biggest holiday we have (says a lot about us actually) ;)  

I assume it depends on were you are and what you like to do, there is a
similar festivity in the Netherlands, and is called "Queensday" (the
birthday of our former queen).

>Anyway, I'm sure you'll get to see plenty of Fireworks on July 5th.

I'd love to see that, we only have fireworks at New Year's Eve.

Tim

From popserver Fri Jul  5 03:24:15 GMT 1996
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	["15402" "Thu" "4" "July" "1996" "22:17:45" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@gnt.net" nil "326" "SSRT: X-33 Announcement Schedule Update, and SAU no. 66" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: "L. Parker" 
To: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
        bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
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        bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: SSRT: X-33 Announcement Schedule Update, and SAU no. 66
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 22:17:45 -0500

>Return-Path: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu
>From: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu (Chris W. Johnson)
>To: "Single Stage Rocket Technology News" 
>Subject: SSRT: X-33 Announcement Schedule Update, and SAU no. 66
>Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 13:43:38 -0600
>Sender: listserv@zimbazi.cc.utexas.edu
>X-listname: 
>
>
>Contents:
>
>1. Latest schedule update on X-33 announcement. (Ron Baalke)
>2. Space Access Update no. 66. (Henry Vanderbilt)
>
>
>==============================================================================
>
>
>From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
>Subject: Vice President Gore To Announce Builder of the X-33
>Followup-To: sci.space.policy
>Date: 28 Jun 1996 13:50:30 -0700
>Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
>Lines: 50
>
>James Cast
>Headquarters, Washington, DC                  June 28, 1996
>(Phone:  202/358-1779)
>
>Franklin O'Donnell
>Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
>(Phone:  818/354-5011)
>
>NOTE TO EDITORS:  N96-44
>
>VICE PRESIDENT TO ANNOUNCE BUILDER OF REUSABLE LAUNCH VEHICLE
>
>     America will come a step closer to having a
>revolutionary new reusable launch vehicle -- called the X-33
>-- when Vice President Albert Gore announces the selection of
>the company that will design, fabricate and flight test the
>new space vehicle.
>
>     Vice President Gore will make the announcement July 2,
>from NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), Pasadena, CA.
>Coverage of the announcement will be carried on NASA
>Television beginning approximately 12:15 p.m. PDT.
>
>     At approximately 1:15 p.m. PDT, NASA Administrator
>Daniel S. Goldin and Gary Payton, Director of NASA's Reusable
>Launch Vehicle Program, will hold a press conference to
>explain the objectives of the program and why this new
>vehicle will be commercially efficient and profitable for
>American industry.
>
>     The first flight for the X-33 is scheduled for March
>1999.  More rigorous flight tests and operational
>demonstrations, including completion of at least a dozen
>flights, are scheduled by December 1999.
>
>     The announcement and press conference will be broadcast
>live on NASA Television with two-way question and answer
>capability from participating NASA locations.  NASA
>Television is carried on Spacenet-2, transponder 5, channel
>9, at 69 degrees West longitude, frequency 3880.0 MHz, audio
>6.8 Megahertz.
>
>     Media representatives planning to attend the event
>should contact the Vice President's press office for
>accreditation. Requests for accreditation should be made on
>the letterhead of the news organization and faxed to
>Mr. Corey Black at 310/458-5347. The phone number for the
>Vice President's press office for this event is 310/458-4287.
>
>                    -end-
>
>
>==============================================================================
>
>
>From: hvanderbilt@BIX.com (hvanderbilt on BIX)
>Subject: Space Access Update #66  7/1/96
>Followup-To: sci.space.policy
>Date: 2 Jul 1996 00:19:20 -0700
>Lines: 232
>
>
>                    Space Access Update #66  7/1/96
>                 Copyright 1996 by Space Access Society
>_______________________________________________________________________
>
>Coming up soon: A detailed report on DC-XA's first three flights, and some
>SAS thoughts on NASA goings-on, with a close look at the X-34 decision.
>_______________________________________________________________________
>
>Stories this issue:
>
> - VP Gore To Announce White House Go-Ahead, X-33 Winner Tuesday July 7
>
> - Other X-33 News
>      - Austin To Co-Locate In SoCal With Winning Bidder
>      - New AA For Space Access Part Of Latest NASA HQ Reorg Plan
>      - Second X-33 Flight Vehicle Part Of Bids?
>
> - DC-XA Flight 4 Delayed At Least Till Mid-July
>
> - RLV Miscellany
>
>-----------------------(SAS Policy Boilerplate)------------------------
>
>Space Access Update is Space Access Society's when-there's-news
>publication. Space Access Society's goal is to promote affordable access
>to space for all, period.  We believe in concentrating our resources at
>whatever point looks like yielding maximum progress toward this goal.
>
>Right now, we think this means working our tails off trying to get the
>government to build and fly a high-speed reusable rocket demonstrator, one
>or more "X-rockets", in the next three years, in order to quickly build up
>both experience with and confidence in reusable Single-Stage To Orbit
>(SSTO) technology.  The idea is to reduce SSTO technical uncertainty (and
>thus development risk and cost) while at the same time increasing investor
>confidence, to the point where SSTO will make sense as a private commercial
>investment.  We have reason to believe we're not far from that point now.
>
>Our major current focus is on supporting the government's fully reusable
>single-stage rocket technology programs, the low-speed DC-XA, and its
>high-speed followon, the X-33 NASA/DOD/industry cooperative project.
>
>With luck and hard work, we should see fully-reusable rocket testbeds flying
>into space well before the end of this decade, with practical orbital
>transport projects getting underway.  Join us, and help us make it happen.
>
>            Henry Vanderbilt, Executive Director, Space Access Society
>
>
>To join Space Access Society or buy the SSTO/DC-X V 3.0 video we have for
>sale (Two hours, includes all eight DC-X flights, X-33 animations, X-33,
>DC-X and SSTO backgrounders, aerospike engine test-stand footage, plus
>White Sands Missile Range DC-X ops site post flight footage) mail a check
>to:  SAS, 4855 E Warner Rd #24-150, Phoenix AZ 85044.  SAS membership with
>direct email of Space Access Updates is $30 US per year; the SSTO V 3.0
>video is $25, $5 off for SAS members, $8 extra for shipping outside the US
>and Canada, VHS NTSC only.
>__________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>  VP Gore To Announce White House Go-Ahead, X-33 Winner Tuesday July 7
>
>
>Word is the White House has approved construction go-ahead for X-33, NASA's
>subscale high-speed reusable rocket flight demonstrator.  Vice President Al
>Gore will announce the winner of the three-bidder design contest at the Jet
>Propulsion Labs (JPL), the NASA space science center in Pasadena
>California.  NASA Select TV coverage begins at 12:15 pm pacific time on
>Tuesday July 2nd, according to a NASA press release.
>
>Rumor has it that the VP will emphasize the hi-tech nature of the project
>by opening an envelope containing the bid-submission CD-ROM of the winning
>bidder.  We expect the occasion will also serve as a Presidential campaign
>event; SAS with others was actively encouraging the political consideration
>of all three bidders being southern California based as a factor in the
>White House's go/no-go decision for the billion-dollar, three-year project.
>Whatever works - and apparently this did.  California with its large number
>of electoral votes is of course an important state in any Presidential
>campaign.
>
>The ceremony will be carried on NASA Select TV, and we'd guess there will
>also be some network coverage Tuesday evening.  Dan Goldin, Administrator
>of NASA, and Gary Payton, NASA's Director of Reusable Launch Vehicles, will
>hold a press conference on NASA Select at 1:15 pm PDT, explaining what X-33
>is and what today's events mean.
>
>The winning bidder for X-33 meanwhile is one of the best-kept secrets
>around.  As we understand it, Gary Payton was running the source selection,
>and he so far has told only Dan Goldin, in the presence of NASA's chief
>legal counsel as a witness.  So until tomorrow around noon, three people in
>the world know.  We understand the bidders and of course VP Gore will be
>informed a few minutes before the actual public announcement.  Until then,
>well, we're all in suspense.
>
>Our compliments to Mr Payton, by the way, for running what seems an
>extraordinarily clean source selection.  It's been frustrating, mind, as we
>haven't even gotten reliable rumors out of the process, but that is after
>all the way these things are supposed to be done.
>
>We'll go out on a limb now anyway and try to rank the bidders, based purely
>on what we do know, what we can guess, the rumors we don't totally
>disbelieve, and our own hard-earned prejudices.
>
>On a purely technical basis, we'd guess first place goes to McDonnell-
>Douglas's wingless vertical-takeoff, vertical landing design, by a small
>margin over Lockheed-Martin's VTHL lifting body, with Rockwell's winged-
>body VTHL a middlin' third.  Lock-Mart's design is probably the most
>elegant of the three engineeringwise, packing the most function into the
>smallest most closely integrated package, but elegance isn't everything.
>Rockwell's design has the advantage of simplicity; MDA's has the dual
>advantages of simplicity and their DC-X experience.  MDA's VTVL design has
>an advantage over both horizontal landers in being inherently easier to
>incrementally flight test - a VTHL design's minimum flight must get high
>and fast enough to transition to a horizontal glide for landing, while a
>VTVL can fly lower stress DC-X-first-flight style "bunny hops" to start
>out its flight test program.
>
>Financially, it's anybody's guess.  This is a cooperative program and the
>size of the corporate contribution counts.  Early rumor had it that
>Lockheed-Martin was offering by far the biggest chunk of matching funds,
>with Rockwell second and MDA a distant third - but that was rumor.
>Further, our understanding of the X-33 CAN is that bidders had latitude to
>adjust bids even after the official submission.  No telling who finally
>came up with the best cash offer.
>
>And we suspect that bidder contributions will be a major factor in the
>final decision.  No telling till tomorrow who dug the deepest to win this
>one.
>
>__________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>                            Other X-33 News
>
>
> - Austin To Co-Locate In SoCal With Winning Bidder
>
>We hear the first thing that'll happen after the winner is announced is
>that Gene Austin, NASA's X-33 project manager, will fly out to California
>to begin setting up a project office co-located with the winning bidder,
>moving his team out from NASA Marshall in Huntsville.  We think this is a
>great idea; anything that simplifies communications will be a help - X-33
>first flight is scheduled for three years from now, and the less time
>wasted flying back and forth across the country the more likely that tight
>schedule will be met.
>
> - New AA For Space Access Part Of Latest NASA HQ Reorg Plan
>
>We also noticed in a planning document posted on the unofficial "NASA RIF
>Watch" web site (http://www.reston.com/rif/watch.html) that NASA OSAT (the
>Office of Space Access & Technology, "Code X") is likely to be split to
>produce a pure Space Access function with its own direct-report-to-Goldin
>Associate Administrator in charge.  We think the logical person for this
>new post is Gary Payton; we think this would enhance the efficiency of the
>X-33 and RLV projects in general by further shortening the lines of command.
>
> - Second X-33 Flight Vehicle Part Of Bids?
>
>We've heard that the X-33 bidders have been asked to cost a second flight
>vehicle as part of their bids; we heartily approve, as a second vehicle
>(even if only in the form of "long-lead spares") is important insurance
>against the risk of losing the first X-33 during flight test.  And we'd
>still really like to see a second runner-up X-33 bidder brought into the
>competition as insurance against the main winner getting complacent or
>laying an egg engineeringwise, at whatever level of activity Congress might
>be willing to fund.
>
>__________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>                              Other News
>
>
> - DC-XA Flight 4 Delayed At Least Till Mid-July
>
>The DC-XA "Clipper Graham"'s fourth flight has been delayed a couple
>weeks, to mid-July at earliest.  As best we can tell from the info we have,
>a new auxiliary power unit (APU) that was due to be used the first time on
>flight four has turbine problems of some sort.  Or possibly one of the four
>RL-10-a5 rocket motors has a turbopump problem, but we suspect this is a
>garbled version of the APU problem.
>
>The first three DC-XA flights were quite successful, a high point being the
>(revolutionary for complex reusable rockets) 26-hour turnaround
>demonstrated between flights 2 and 3 in early June.  There was some
>excitement at landing in the first two flights, mind - both a steel-grid
>landing platform on flight 1 and a prepared dry-lakebed surface on flight 2
>turned out to behave somewhat differently than expected.
>
>The landing grid did cut vehicle base heating as planned, but also produced
>unexpected flow patterns, leading to a maneuvering flap popping open
>eighteen feet up then catching fire when the actual touchdown was too soft
>to trigger the engine cutoff switches for a couple of seconds.  And the
>water-treated, compacted lakebed mud of the flight two landing site turned
>out to disintegrate under 5000 degree rocket blasts; flight two dug much
>larger trenches than expected.  Flight three precision-landed without
>incident on a corner of the original concrete pad.
>
>__________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>                             RLV Miscellany
>
>
> - Reusable rocket research funding in the USAF looks likely to be between
>$25 million and $50 million for FY'97.  FY'96 funding was $25 million to
>USAF Phillips Labs, who will be managing flight test planning and ops for
>NASA X-33.
>
> - Overall RLV funding at NASA for FY'97 looks pretty firmly set at $283
>million - of that, roughly $250 million should go to getting X-33 off to a
>fast start.  Stay tuned for more once the details of the winning bid are
>known.
>
>- And our congratulations to Dezi Gage at McDonnell-Douglas, who is
>getting married this month and moving to be with her new husband - we're
>not entirely convinced McDonnell-Douglas's RLV efforts won't grind to a
>halt once she's gone.  Best of luck, Dezi!
>
>__________________________________________________________________________
>
> Space Access Society      "Reach low orbit and you're halfway to anywhere
> 4855 E Warner Rd #24-150               in the Solar System."
> Phoenix AZ 85044                               - Robert A. Heinlein
> 602 431-9283 voice/fax
> www.space-access.org                     "You can't get there from here."
> space.access@space-access.org                          - Anonymous
>
> - Permission granted to redistribute the full and unaltered text of this -
> - piece, including the copyright and this notice.  All other rights      -
> - reserved.  In other words, crossposting, emailing, or printing this    -
> - whole and passing it on to interested parties is strongly encouraged.  -
>
>
>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From popserver Fri Jul  5 03:24:18 GMT 1996
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	["1156" "Thu" "4" "July" "1996" "22:18:16" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@gnt.net" nil "30" "SSRT: Lockheed Martin wins X-33" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: "L. Parker" 
To: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
        bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: SSRT: Lockheed Martin wins X-33
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 22:18:16 -0500

>Return-Path: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu
>From: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu (Chris W. Johnson)
>To: "Single Stage Rocket Technology News" 
>Subject: SSRT: Lockheed Martin wins X-33
>Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 15:26:35 -0600
>Sender: listserv@zimbazi.cc.utexas.edu
>X-listname: 
>
>
>This just in: Lockheed Martin has been selected to build the X-33.
>
>----Chris
>
>Chris W. Johnson
>
>Email: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu
>URL:   http://gargravarr.cc.utexas.edu/
>
>"It is only now beginning to dawn on us that an American city with its
>immense freeway and parking infrastructure resembles not so much a city
>of the 21st century as a city which has suffered saturation bombing."
>--Wolfgang Zuckermann
>
>
>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From popserver Fri Jul  5 03:24:20 GMT 1996
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From: "L. Parker" 
To: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
        bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: SSRT: NASA Press Release on X-33 Selection
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 22:18:41 -0500

>Return-Path: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu
>From: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu (Chris W. Johnson)
>To: "Single Stage Rocket Technology News" 
>Subject: SSRT: NASA Press Release on X-33 Selection
>Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 15:55:18 -0600
>Sender: listserv@zimbazi.cc.utexas.edu
>X-listname: 
>
>
>
>James Cast                                        July 2, 1996
>Headquarters, Washington, DC
>(Phone:  202/358-1779)
>
>Dom Amatore
>Marshall Space Flight Center, Huntsville, AL
>(Phone:  205/544-0031)
>
>RELEASE:  96-128
>
>LOCKHEED MARTIN SELECTED TO BUILD X-33
>
>    Vice President Al Gore today announced that Lockheed
>Martin has been selected to build the X-33 test vehicle, a
>one-half scale model of the Reusable Launch Vehicle (RLV)
>which will be used to demonstrate advanced technologies that
>will dramatically increase reliability and lower the costs of
>putting payloads into space.
>
>    Lockheed Martin will design, build and conduct the first
>test flight of the X-33 test vehicle by March 1999, and
>conduct at least fifteen flights by December 1999.  NASA has
>budgeted $941 million for the project through 1999.  Lockheed
>Martin will invest $220 million in its X-33 design.
>
>    Called "VentureStar," the Lockheed Martin design is based
>on a lifting body shape with a radical new aerospike engine
>and a rugged metallic thermal protection system which would be
>launched vertically like a rocket and land horizontally like
>an airplane.
>
>    "The RLV program is a radical departure from the way NASA
>has done business in the past," NASA Administrator Daniel S.
>Goldin said.  "Our role is to develop the high risk
>technologies that industry cannot afford.  But we won't build
>the vehicle, industry will.  NASA will be a user, not an
>operator."
>
>    Goldin said the objective of the RLV technology program is
>simple.  "We want to develop technologies that will allow
>industry to build a vehicle that takes days, not months, to
>turn-around; dozens, not thousands of people to operate;
>reliability ten times better than anything flying today; and
>launch costs that are a tenth of what they are now.  Our goal
>is a reusable launch vehicle that will cut the cost of a pound
>of payload to orbit from $10,000 to $1,000."
>
>    The X-33 will integrate and demonstrate all the
>technologies in a scale version that would be needed for
>industry to build a full-size RLV.  "The X-33
>
>will be about half the size of a full-scale RLV.  It will be a
>remotely-piloted, sub-orbital vehicle, capable of altitudes up
>to 50 miles and speeds of Mach 15," said RLV Director Gary
>Payton.
>
>    The X-33 program is being conducted under a Cooperative
>Agreement, not a conventional customer/supplier contract.
>Under this agreement, NASA defined the broad objectives and
>industry proposed an approach to meet the objectives.
>"Cooperative agreements are performance-based," said Payton.
>"Payment is made only after the industry partner completes a
>pre-determined milestone."
>
>    "The X-33 test vehicle is the most advanced part of a
>three-pronged RLV program to develop and demonstrate the kinds
>of technologies required by industry to build a new launch
>system that will provide truly affordable and reliable access
>to space," Payton said. "The RLV approach is to design a
>little, build a little, test a little, fly a little."
>
>*        The subsonic DC-XA, or Clipper Graham vehicle which
>has successfully flown three times from its launch site in
>White Sands, New Mexico, is flight testing advanced
>technologies such as lightweight composite propellant tanks,
>fuel lines and valves.
>
>*        The Mach 8 X-34 vehicle, to be built by Orbital
>Sciences Corp., will demonstrate technologies necessary for a
>reusable vehicle.
>
>*        The Mach 15 X-33 vehicle which will integrate and
>test advanced components and technologies necessary for
>industry to build a full-scale RLV.
>
>    Three industry teams competed for the X-33 vehicle.  In
>addition to Lockheed Martin, proposals were submitted by
>McDonnell Douglas, Huntington Beach, CA, and Rockwell
>International, Downey, CA.
>
>    Due to an innovative, paperless procurement process, the
>X-33 evaluation and selection was completed in about one-
>quarter of the time it normally takes to finish procurements
>of this size.  Proposals were submitted by the three companies
>in April on CD-ROM media.  One CD-ROM replaced approximately
>eight boxes worth of printed material.  Proposals were read
>on-screen by each evaluator, and an evaluation database
>allowed them to enter strengths and weaknesses on-line while
>reading the proposal.
>
>    The VentureStar team includes prime contractor Lockheed
>Martin Skunk Works, Palmdale, CA; Rocketdyne, Canoga Park, CA;
>Rohr, Chula Vista, CA; and AlliedSignal Aerospace, Teterboro,
>NJ.
>
>                             -end-
>
>
>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From popserver Mon Jul  8 05:37:37 GMT 1996
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	["504" "Mon" "8" "July" "1996" "00:44:07" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "11" "Re: SSRT: Lockheed Martin wins X-33" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: lparker@gnt.net, David@interworld.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, stevev@efn.org,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, bmansur@oc.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: SSRT: Lockheed Martin wins X-33
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 00:44:07 -0400

>"It is only now beginning to dawn on us that an American city with its
>immense freeway and parking infrastructure resembles not so much a city
>of the 21st century as a city which has suffered saturation bombing."
>--Wolfgang Zuckermann

Ah so many stil confuse downtowns with cities.  Iteresting since the have
less than a fifth of the population of a metro area, and less than that of
the jobs and money.  They are all falling apart because we are abandoning
them, and moving to the subburbs.

Kelly

From popserver Mon Jul  8 15:39:45 GMT 1996
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	["4690" "Mon" "8" "July" "1996" "08:00:53" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "109" "Microsoft way" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: Microsoft way
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 08:00:53 -0500

> BURNOUT PREVENTION AND RECOVERY
>
> 1. STOP DENYING.  Listen to the wisdom of your body.  Begin to freely
> admit the stresses and pressures that have manifested physically,
> mentally, or emotionally.
>
>       MICROSOFT VIEW: Work until the physical pain forces you into
>       unconsciousness.
>
> 2. AVOID ISOLATION.  Don't do everything alone!  Develop or renew
> intimacies with friends and loved ones.  Closeness not only brings new
> insights, but also is anathema to agitation and depression.
>
>       MICROSOFT VIEW: Shut your office door (if you have one) and lock it
> from the inside so no-one will distract you. They're just trying to hurt your
> productivity.
>
> 3. CHANGE YOUR CIRCUMSTANCES.  If your job, your relationships, a
> situation, or a person is dragging you under, try to alter your
> circumstances, or if necessary, leave.
>
>       MICROSOFT VIEW: If you feel something is dragging you down, suppress
>       these thoughts. This is a weakness. Drink more coffee. (It's free.)
>
> 4. DIMINISH INTENSITY IN YOUR LIFE.  Pinpoint those areas or aspects
> that summon up the most concentrated intensity and work toward
> alleviating that pressure.
>
>       MICROSOFT VIEW: Increase intensity.  Maximum intensity = maximum
>       productivity. If you find yourself relaxed and with your mind
> wandering, you are probably having a detrimental effect on the stock price.
>
> 5. STOP OVERNURTURING.  If you routinely take on other people's
> problems and responsibilities, learn to gracefully disengage.  Try to
> get some nurturing for yourself.
>
>       MICROSOFT VIEW: Always attempt to do everything. You ARE
>       responsible for it all.  Perhaps you haven't thoroughly read your job
>       description.
>
> 6. LEARN TO SAY "NO".  You'll help diminish intensity by speaking up
> for yourself.  This means refusing additional requests or demands on
> your time or emotions.
>
>       MICROSOFT VIEW: Never say no to anything.  It shows weakness,
>       and lowers the stock price. Never put off until tomorrow what you can
>       do at midnight.
>
> 7. BEGIN TO BACK OFF AND DETACH.  Learn to delegate, not only at work,
> but also at home and with friends.  In this case, detachment means
> rescuing yourself for yourself.
>
>       MICROSOFT VIEW: Delegating is a sign of weakness.  Let someone
>       else do it (See #5).
>
> 8. REASSESS YOUR VALUES.  Try to sort out the meaningful values from
> the temporary and fleeting, the essential from the nonessential.
> You'll conserve energy and time, and begin to feel more centered.
>
>       MICROSOFT VIEW: Stop thinking about your own problems. This is
>       selfish. If your values change, we will make an announcement at the
>       company meeting. Until then, if someone calls you and questions your
>       priorities, tell them that you are unable to comment on this and give
>       them the number for Microsoft Marketing. It will be taken care of.
>
> 9. LEARN TO PACE YOURSELF.  Try to take life in moderation.  You only
> have so much energy available.  Ascertain what is wanted and needed in
> your life, then begin to balance work with love, pleasure, and
> relaxation.
>
>       MICROSOFT VIEW: A balanced life is a myth perpetuated by the Borland
>       Marketing Team.  Don't be a fool: the only thing that matters is work
>       and productivity.
>
> 10. TAKE CARE OF YOUR BODY.  Don't skip meals, abuse yourself with
> rigid diets, disregard your need for sleep, or break doctor's
> appointments. Take care of yourself nutritionally.
>
>       MICROSOFT VIEW: Your body serves your mind, your mind serves the
>       company.  Push the mind and the body will follow. Drink Pepsi. (it's
free.)
>
> 11. DIMINISH WORRY AND ANXIETY.  Try to keep superstitious worrying to
> a minimum -- it changes nothing.  You'll have a better grip on your
> situation if you spend less time worrying and more time taking care of
> your real needs.
>
>       MICROSOFT VIEW: If you're not worrying about work, you must not be
>       very committed to it.  We'll find someone who is.
>
> 12. KEEP YOUR SENSE OF HUMOR.  Begin to bring joy and happy moments
> into your life.  Very few people suffer burnout when they're having
> fun.
>
>       MICROSOFT VIEW: So, you think your work is funny?  We'll discuss this
>       with your manager on Friday.  At 7:00 pm.
>
- --


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Mon Jul  8 15:39:59 GMT 1996
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	["1523" "Mon" "8" "July" "1996" "08:35:11" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "48" "Re: Vacation in the US." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU
Subject: Re: Vacation in the US.
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 08:35:11 -0500

At 12:54 AM 7/3/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>Kelly wrote:
>>Pity I don't still live in work in Reston Va. (about 30 miles west of
>>D.C.), or I'ld drop in.  We could make it a LIT convention.
>
>I already secretly checked the distance, 1300 kilometers from you to Rex, as
>the crow flies.

Yeah I told you this was a big country.


> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>>>Friday July 5th, I'll come and visit the US. I'm staying with Rex for two
>>>weeks, if he not decides to throw me out earlier ;)
>>
>>Whoa, surprize.  Hope you like the place.  Pity you missed all the
>>activities on the 4th.
>
>I yesterday saw a programme about that, I had heard of July 4th, but hadn't
>remembered it when I booked the flight.
>The TV-programme said it wasn't a big festival, only some simple fairs,
>families visiting eachother or having a picnic. I'm not sure where they did
>the shooting, it wasn't in a big city.

???  Ah the 4th is about the biggest holiday we have.  As for "only some
simple fairs", they obviously missed the parades, fireworks, etc which take
over most U.S. cities and towns.


>>Have fun.
>
>Thanks, I certainly will.
>
>Tim

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Mon Jul  8 15:40:02 GMT 1996
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	["666" "Mon" "8" "July" "1996" "15:59:36" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "25" "LIT Members" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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	id AA00740; Mon, 8 Jul 96 15:59:36 +0200
Message-Id: <9607081359.AA00740@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl>
From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, bmansur@oc.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu
Cc: zkulpa
Subject: LIT Members
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 96 15:59:36 +0200

Who knows what is the exact list of current "members" of the Mini-LIT? 
I am asking, as in the headers of incoming posts I spotted recently 
some differences in the list of recipients.

My current LIT alias contains the following addresses:

KellySt@aol.com, 
hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, 
bmansur@oc.edu, 
T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, 
stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, 
zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, 
rddesign@wolfenet.com, 
David@interworld.com, 
lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, 
DotarSojat@aol.com, 
sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 
MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 
101765.2200@compuserve.com, 
kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, 
neill@foda.math.usu.edu

Is it OK?

-- Zenon Kulpa

From popserver Mon Jul  8 15:40:04 GMT 1996
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Message-Id: <9607081405.AA00763@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl>
From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, bmansur@oc.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu
Cc: zkulpa
Subject: New mini-LIT Member
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 96 16:05:18 +0200

A young guy with whom I have exchanged e-mails since some time
on various topics is interested in joining our mini-LIT
discussion circle. A short introduction by him is enclosed below.
I think we may safely add them to our circle.
If there are no objections, please add his address to your 
LIT mail aliases.

Regards,

-- Zenon
_______________________________________________________________
 Dr. Zenon Kulpa              |   
 Center of Mechanics,         |             All civilizations
 Institute of Fundamental     |     become either spacefaring
   Technological Research     |                    or extinct.
 ul. Swietokrzyska 21         |
 00-049 Warszawa, POLAND      |                    Carl Sagan
______________________________|________________________________

 tel  ++48-22/261281 ext 279     fax  ++48-22/269815  
 URL  http://www.ippt.gov.pl/~zkulpa
_______________________________________________________________


> From pbakelaar@exit109.com Mon Jul  8 12:10:01 1996
> Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 07:15:44 -0400
> X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type> : > text/plain> ; > charset="us-ascii"> 
> To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
> From: Philip Bakelaar 
> Subject: Re: LIT
> Content-Length: 1814
> 
> My name is Ben Bakelaar, and I am 15 years old. I currently
> live in NJ, in Manahawkin, next to Long Beach Island. I 
> moved here in November 95 from Little Falls, near Paterson,
> where I had lived for 10 years. I am going into 10th grade.
> 
> I have had a love to read ever since I could, and even
> before that. At age 10 I discovered sci-fi, then fantasy,
> and have read 100s of novels since, (and spent $100s in 
> the process)! I am a good student in math & science and
> have always had a love for them. I am in all honor 
> classes. 
> 
> I wish to join LIT because I believe in the reality
> of moving into outer-space and the importance of the
> advancement of technology to that point. I also 
> believe that although the goverment MAY be trying to
> do this, individual work is well rewarded. Being a part
> of LIT, I would hopefully recieve references from members
> to books on learning things such as quantum physics and
> other related matter. Also, I hope to host the LIT web
> site, as well as (once I learn some stuff) be able to
> intelligently participate in conversation, something I 
> NEED! I rarely have the chance to have a highly technical
> discussion of sorts, and even if LIT doesn't have many,
> it will be better than nothing! >:)
> 
> I guess that should do it.
> 
> Thanx Zenon for trying to get me in! 
> 
> Ben
> 
> 

From popserver Mon Jul  8 15:40:16 GMT 1996
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	["1130" "Mon" "8" "July" "1996" "10:16:04" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "43" "Re: LIT Members" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com
Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, bmansur@oc.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re: LIT Members
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 10:16:04 -0500

At 3:59 PM 7/8/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>Who knows what is the exact list of current "members" of the Mini-LIT?
>I am asking, as in the headers of incoming posts I spotted recently
>some differences in the list of recipients.
>
>My current LIT alias contains the following addresses:
>
>KellySt@aol.com,
>hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
>bmansur@oc.edu,
>T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,
>stevev@efn.org,jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
>zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl,
>rddesign@wolfenet.com,
>David@interworld.com,
>lparker@destin.gulfnet.com,
>DotarSojat@aol.com,
>sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
>MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
>101765.2200@compuserve.com,
>kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
>neill@foda.math.usu.edu
>
>Is it OK?
>
>-- Zenon Kulpa


Thats an almost exact copy of my list, thou I don't have
.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Mon Jul  8 15:40:17 GMT 1996
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	["3220" "Mon" "8" "July" "1996" "10:19:50" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "86" "Re: New mini-LIT Member" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com
Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com
Subject: Re: New mini-LIT Member
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 10:19:50 -0500

Ok, I have added him to my list.  Have you forwarded him copies of past
discusion?  Address of the web sites (production  and developmental) and
the rest?

Kelly


At 4:05 PM 7/8/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>A young guy with whom I have exchanged e-mails since some time
>on various topics is interested in joining our mini-LIT
>discussion circle. A short introduction by him is enclosed below.
>I think we may safely add them to our circle.
>If there are no objections, please add his address to your
>LIT mail aliases.
>
>Regards,
>
>-- Zenon
>_______________________________________________________________
> Dr. Zenon Kulpa              |
> Center of Mechanics,         |             All civilizations
> Institute of Fundamental     |     become either spacefaring
>   Technological Research     |                    or extinct.
> ul. Swietokrzyska 21         |
> 00-049 Warszawa, POLAND      |                    Carl Sagan
>______________________________|________________________________
>
> tel  ++48-22/261281 ext 279     fax  ++48-22/269815
> URL  http://www.ippt.gov.pl/~zkulpa
>_______________________________________________________________
>
>
>> From pbakelaar@exit109.com Mon Jul  8 12:10:01 1996
>> Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 07:15:44 -0400
>> X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
>> Mime-Version: 1.0
>> Content-Type> : > text/plain> ; > charset="us-ascii">
>> To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
>> From: Philip Bakelaar 
>> Subject: Re: LIT
>> Content-Length: 1814
>>
>> My name is Ben Bakelaar, and I am 15 years old. I currently
>> live in NJ, in Manahawkin, next to Long Beach Island. I
>> moved here in November 95 from Little Falls, near Paterson,
>> where I had lived for 10 years. I am going into 10th grade.
>>
>> I have had a love to read ever since I could, and even
>> before that. At age 10 I discovered sci-fi, then fantasy,
>> and have read 100s of novels since, (and spent $100s in
>> the process)! I am a good student in math & science and
>> have always had a love for them. I am in all honor
>> classes.
>>
>> I wish to join LIT because I believe in the reality
>> of moving into outer-space and the importance of the
>> advancement of technology to that point. I also
>> believe that although the goverment MAY be trying to
>> do this, individual work is well rewarded. Being a part
>> of LIT, I would hopefully recieve references from members
>> to books on learning things such as quantum physics and
>> other related matter. Also, I hope to host the LIT web
>> site, as well as (once I learn some stuff) be able to
>> intelligently participate in conversation, something I
>> NEED! I rarely have the chance to have a highly technical
>> discussion of sorts, and even if LIT doesn't have many,
>> it will be better than nothing! >:)
>>
>> I guess that should do it.
>>
>> Thanx Zenon for trying to get me in!
>>
>> Ben
>>
>>


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Mon Jul  8 15:40:20 GMT 1996
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	["331" "Mon" "8" "July" "1996" "17:27:02" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "13" "Re: LIT Members" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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Message-Id: <9607081527.AA00900@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl>
From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, bmansur@oc.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu
Subject: Re: LIT Members
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 96 17:27:02 +0200

> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Mon Jul  8 17:20:01 1996
> 
> Thats an almost exact copy of my list, thou I don't have
> .
> 
> Kelly
> 
Ah, and the address   
is probably wrong or obsolete, as it produces
the "unknown address" error after my postings.
Do you have the same effect?

-- Zenon

From popserver Tue Jul  9 02:01:57 GMT 1996
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	["730" "Mon" "8" "July" "1996" "10:50:33" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "30" "Re: LIT Members" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, bmansur@oc.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu
Subject: Re: LIT Members
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 10:50:33 -0500

At 5:27 PM 7/8/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Mon Jul  8 17:20:01 1996
>>
>> Thats an almost exact copy of my list, thou I don't have
>> .
>>
>> Kelly
>>
>Ah, and the address   
>is probably wrong or obsolete, as it produces
>the "unknown address" error after my postings.
>Do you have the same effect?
>
>-- Zenon


Yes, same effect.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Tue Jul  9 02:02:05 GMT 1996
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	["400" "Mon" "8" "July" "1996" "11:24:16" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "16" "SF lovers web site" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com
Subject: SF lovers web site
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 11:24:16 -0500

http://sflovers.rutgers.edu/

It was last weeks SF site of the week.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Tue Jul  9 02:02:29 GMT 1996
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	["658" "Mon" "8" "July" "1996" "19:12:12" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "22" "Re: New mini-LIT Member" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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Message-Id: <9607081712.AA01058@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl>
From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, bmansur@oc.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu
Subject: Re: New mini-LIT Member
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 96 19:12:12 +0200

> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Mon Jul  8 17:23:11 1996
> 
> Ok, I have added him to my list.  Have you forwarded him copies of past
> discusion?  
>
I have forwarded a sample from the recent discussion.
If he wants, I can forward him more.

> Address of the web sites (production  and developmental) and
> the rest?
> 
He knows the old LIT site.
I am afraid I am not up to date with your latest
WWW-sites developments - can you send me (and him)
the relevant URLs? (and the rest (?))

BTW, are there plans to revive the old site,
or are you working on the completely new one?
And then, what with the old one - 
will it be dismantled eventually?

-- Zenon

From popserver Tue Jul  9 02:02:41 GMT 1996
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	["1454" "Mon" "8" "July" "1996" "12:34:32" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "49" "Re: New mini-LIT Member" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, bmansur@oc.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu
Subject: Re: New mini-LIT Member
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 12:34:32 -0500

At 7:12 PM 7/8/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Mon Jul  8 17:23:11 1996
>>
>> Ok, I have added him to my list.  Have you forwarded him copies of past
>> discusion?
>>
>I have forwarded a sample from the recent discussion.
>If he wants, I can forward him more.

Ok, I have collections of the last couple months worth if you need them.

>> Address of the web sites (production  and developmental) and
>> the rest?
>>
>He knows the old LIT site.
>I am afraid I am not up to date with your latest
>WWW-sites developments - can you send me (and him)
>the relevant URLs? (and the rest (?))
>
>BTW, are there plans to revive the old site,
>or are you working on the completely new one?
>And then, what with the old one -
>will it be dismantled eventually?
>
>-- Zenon


Last I heard Dave W/S site will act like a prototype.  When its finished it
will be copied into the old (sunsite) lit area.

The new (DEVELOPMENT!) version is at:

http://165.254.130.90/LIT/InterStellar/project/

I'm working on it as time permits.  Unfortunatly I seem to be the only one
working on it, and I don't have a lot of time.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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	["1255" "Mon" "8" "July" "1996" "14:35:07" "-0400" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "37" "RE: New mini-LIT Member" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: David Levine 
To: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu"
	 ,
        "bmansur@oc.edu" ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" 
To: "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" ,
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	 ,
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	 ,
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	 ,
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To: "101765.2200@compuserve.com" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>,
        "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" ,
        "neill@foda.math.usu.edu" ,
        "'zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl'" 
Subject: RE: New mini-LIT Member
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 14:35:07 -0400

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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>
>BTW, are there plans to revive the old site,
>or are you working on the completely new one?
>And then, what with the old one - 
>will it be dismantled eventually?
>
>-- Zenon


Current plans are to use the site at my office as a
"development" site and once we get it to the point
where it is a viable replacement for the old site,
I will begin mirroring it at SunSITE.  This will allow
everyone here to modify the pages on SunSITE without
having to get accounts there.  You'll really be modifying
it on another computer.  I'd also like to expand LIT
to have a section for Interstellar travel (which we already
have), a section for in-system travel, and a section for
earth and near-earth sciences.


Kevin also has a few ideas about the future of LIT.
Personally, I can't say I agree with him, but if you'd
like to share your ideas, Kevin...


------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6CDA.AAFBF550--

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	["1614" "Mon" "8" "July" "1996" "19:13:41" "-0400" "Philip Bakelaar" "pbakelaar@exit109.com" nil "40" "Re: New mini-LIT Member (A litte more info)" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39), KellySt@aol.com,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu
Subject: Re: New mini-LIT Member (A litte more info)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 19:13:41 -0400

Well, hello everyone. I just thought I would write a quick letter saying a
few things.

First off, I hope you all don't mind a young kid like me being part of your
group, but I
promise I won't bother you.

Secondly, if there is any way I can participate in this group, please let me
know. One of the
few things I can maybe help you out with is web site hosting. I mean, if you
need any
space or anything, just let me know.

And third, just so all of you know, I am a computer programmer, and while
for the time
being I am limited to DOS, I am a fairly good programmer. If anyone would like 
anything done, like putting an equationinto a program or anything... well, I
guess most of you 
can program or know someone who does, but if maybe you don't have time or
something, I almost
always have time each day to do a little programming, so... just an offer.

I looked over a past discussions letter Zenon sent me, and I just want to
say that although 
right now the equations are over my head, I will try my hardest to figure
them out, so if I don't participate in conversation that much yet, please
forgive me. Hopefully soon I will at least be
able to participate to some degree. 

Well, I guess I wrote too much, sorry about that. One thing more I have to
add is that I am very 
good at web research and so if anyone would like me to research anything,
let me know. Basically,
I'm saying you guys can ask me to do stuff, especially while I can't
participate too much in your
conversation (yet). I want to be a helpful, contributing member. 

Well, I guess I bored you all to death by now. Thanx for reading.

Ben

From popserver Tue Jul  9 15:40:39 GMT 1996
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	["2958" "Tue" "9" "July" "1996" "06:34:03" "-0700" "Kevin Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "80" "Re: Ben" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
To: Philip Bakelaar 
CC: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@CompuServe.COM,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu
Subject: Re: Ben
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 06:34:03 -0700

Philip Bakelaar wrote:
> 
> Well, hello everyone. I just thought I would write a quick letter saying a
> few things.
> 
> First off, I hope you all don't mind a young kid like me being part of your
> group, but I
> promise I won't bother you.

Ahh, to be young again.  ;)  

Hi Ben, and welcome.  New ideas aren't a bother.  


> 
> Secondly, if there is any way I can participate in this group, please let me
> know. One of the
> few things I can maybe help you out with is web site hosting. I mean, if you
> need any
> space or anything, just let me know.
> 

We've been having some discussion of this prior to your arrival.  I will be posting 
another letter later tonight (It's around 6:30 am here in Minneapolis, MN)


> And third, just so all of you know, I am a computer programmer, and while
> for the time
> being I am limited to DOS, I am a fairly good programmer. If anyone would like
> anything done, like putting an equationinto a program or anything... well, I
> guess most of you
> can program or know someone who does, but if maybe you don't have time or
> something, I almost
> always have time each day to do a little programming, so... just an offer.
> 

Yeah, I think it's safe to say that most of can program, but don't have much time.
I think this might be a useful outlet for some creative energy.  I think the time
and distance program has been generally agreed to as being "broken"
the url is:
http://sunsite.unc.edu/lunar/prog7.html

I would like to see a program that could compute ship-time and earth-time for a
relativistic flight given:


distance to cover (one-way)
acceleration in (m/s or G)
top cruising speed (use none for a constant thrust mission)

Make the input a html form, (maybe write the code in JAVA?) 
you can research the formulas yourself, or ask Tim or Steve

> I looked over a past discussions letter Zenon sent me, and I just want to
> say that although
> right now the equations are over my head, I will try my hardest to figure
> them out, so if I don't participate in conversation that much yet, please
> forgive me. Hopefully soon I will at least be
> able to participate to some degree.

Well, don't feel bad. I'm about twice your age and have had the benefit of
college level calculus (don't ask about the grades ;) ) and the math is still
above my head.  As for participating, you just did.  even if you can't do the math,
you still can help in other areas, and I'm sure you'll get the math eventually.

> 
> Well, I guess I wrote too much, sorry about that. One thing more I have to

Hey guys, should we tell him about Brian and the great E-mail avalanche?

> add is that I am very
> good at web research and so if anyone would like me to research anything,
> let me know. Basically,

Okay, how about any web articles on Masers?  or beamed power.

> Well, I guess I bored you all to death by now. Thanx for reading.

It's only boring when you say you can't participate, because you just did! :)
Kevin

From popserver Tue Jul  9 15:40:42 GMT 1996
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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@CompuServe.COM,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu
Subject: Re: Ben
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 07:50:51 -0400

At 06:34 AM 7/9/96 -0700, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote:
>Ahh, to be young again.  ;)  
>
>Hi Ben, and welcome.  New ideas aren't a bother.  

That's good news to hear, because I do have ideas. :)

>We've been having some discussion of this prior to your arrival.  I will be
posting 
>another letter later tonight (It's around 6:30 am here in Minneapolis, MN)

OK... just let me know. The other day, I downloaded *every* page of the
sunsite.edu
LIT page, so I have all the FAQs and stuff. The only thing I did not
download all of
was the archives, but I can still do that if it is needed.

>Yeah, I think it's safe to say that most of can program, but don't have
much time.
>I think this might be a useful outlet for some creative energy.  I think
the time
>and distance program has been generally agreed to as being "broken"
>the url is:
>http://sunsite.unc.edu/lunar/prog7.html
>
>I would like to see a program that could compute ship-time and earth-time for a
>relativistic flight given:
>
>distance to cover (one-way)
>acceleration in (m/s or G)
>top cruising speed (use none for a constant thrust mission)
>
>Make the input a html form, (maybe write the code in JAVA?) 
>you can research the formulas yourself, or ask Tim or Steve

OK.. later today I will try to look that program up. As for an HTML form, I will
have to write the code in JAVA as my web server doesn't allow CGI. I'll have to
figure that out soon.

As for the formulas, if they are in the program, somewhere that I can see them,
then I can figure them out, but otherwise I will need them.

>Well, don't feel bad. I'm about twice your age and have had the benefit of
>college level calculus (don't ask about the grades ;) ) and the math is still
>above my head.  As for participating, you just did.  even if you can't do
the math,
>you still can help in other areas, and I'm sure you'll get the math eventually.

Good. I'm glad I can help. :-)

>Okay, how about any web articles on Masers?  or beamed power.

I will try later today. First I have to go to summer school and take my
Algebra II class.

I should get back to you tonite about the research.

-==-

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Philip Bakelaar 
Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39), KellySt@aol.com,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu
Subject: Re: New mini-LIT Member (A litte more info)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 07:40:55 -0500

At 7:13 PM 7/8/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote:
>Well, hello everyone. I just thought I would write a quick letter saying a
>few things.
>
>First off, I hope you all don't mind a young kid like me being part of your
>group, but I
>promise I won't bother you.

Bother us.  Our biggest problem is quiet.

>Secondly, if there is any way I can participate in this group, please let me
>know. One of the
>few things I can maybe help you out with is web site hosting. I mean, if you
>need any
>space or anything, just let me know.
>
>And third, just so all of you know, I am a computer programmer, and while
>for the time
>being I am limited to DOS, I am a fairly good programmer. If anyone would like
>anything done, like putting an equationinto a program or anything... well, I
>guess most of you
>can program or know someone who does, but if maybe you don't have time or
>something, I almost
>always have time each day to do a little programming, so... just an offer.
>
>I looked over a past discussions letter Zenon sent me, and I just want to
>say that although
>right now the equations are over my head, I will try my hardest to figure
>them out, so if I don't participate in conversation that much yet, please
>forgive me. Hopefully soon I will at least be
>able to participate to some degree.
>
>Well, I guess I wrote too much, sorry about that. One thing more I have to
>add is that I am very
>good at web research and so if anyone would like me to research anything,
>let me know. Basically,
>I'm saying you guys can ask me to do stuff, especially while I can't
>participate too much in your
>conversation (yet). I want to be a helpful, contributing member.

You could read through the new Website at Dave system and tell me which
parts are clear, cloudy, interesting, yawnish.  If you can figure out why
the map links on my nice table of content graphics on the development site
don't work I'ld appreciate it.

If you want to take a crack at progrmaing an active table to computing
relatavistic fuel ratios for ships, or microwave power needed for a sail
ship, that would help too.  (I'm trying to recruit someone whos trying to
do numeric analysis, and we could use some numbers.)  (Don't worry none of
us are comfortable with all these equations.)

Or just nose around looking for other web sites, newsgroups, etc with info
on starships, space, fusion energy or something.  If its good we can add it
or refference it.  (I've done a few scans, but the term starship buries you
under tons of startrek stuff!

>Well, I guess I bored you all to death by now. Thanx for reading.
>
>Ben

Thanks for joining.

Kelly Starks


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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	["16872" "Tue" "9" "July" "1996" "17:08:30" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "240" "Space links" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com
Cc: zkulpa
Subject: Space links
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 96 17:08:30 +0200

> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Tue Jul  9 14:44:49 1996
> 
> Or just nose around looking for other web sites, newsgroups, etc with info
> on starships, space, fusion energy or something.  If its good we can add it
> or refference it. 
>
Short of space links? Here are some - 
I am attaching below a part of my bookmarks file
concerning space exploration. 
I have added also a section on nanotechnology 
(start to look at it from the MMSG pages).
It is true that there is little on spaceships and interstellar travel,
as my main interests are in solar system exploration.
There soon will be another interesting site - I am working
with my friend here on the pages for The URANOS Club
and will post the URL when they appear on the Web.

Generally, whoever finds something interesting on the Web
on space or related issues, please post URLs here!

And now, detach the text below, 
load it into your browser as a HTML file, and surrrfff!

-- Zenon

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


Zenon Kulpa's Bookmarks on Space




Zenon Kulpa's Bookmarks on Space Exploration




    
SPACE EXPLORATION

    

        
Space Development and Space Science
        
Space Available
        
Human Expansion into Space
        

        
The Black Horse Page
        
IslandOne Huge Space Index
        
Teleportation
        
Planetary Exploration & Colonization

        

            
Planetary Science WWW Sites
            
Using Space Resources
            
Planetary Materials Curation at NASA JSC
            
Center for Mars Exploration Home Page
            
The Case for Mars Conference
            
Mars Introduction
            
Marslink Essays
            
Face on Mars Home Page
            
The Artemis Project
            
Artemis Lunar Mission Plan
            
Lunar Base Quarterly
            
Moonbase Development Document
            
Intern. Lunar Exploration Working Group
            
Back to the Moon Forum
        

        
Space Settlements

        

            
The First Millennial Foundation
            
Island One Society
            
Space Settlements at NASA
        

        
Flight & Propulsion Physics

        

            
Basics of Space Flight
            
The Liftoff Academy
            
Interstellar Propulsion Society
            
Warp Drive When?
        

        
Launch & Exploration Institutions

        

            
NASA Main Page
            
NASA/Marshall Space Flight Center
            
Malin Space Science Systems
            
European Space Agency
            
Russian Cosmonauts Training Centre
        

        
Missions

        

            
All U.S. Human Space Flights
            
Missions and People in Space
            
APOLLO Manned Missions
            
NASA Space Shuttle Web Archives
            
Shuttle Flights to Date
            
Project Galileo (JPL)
            
Galileo Jovian Probe (NASA Ames)
            
International Space Station
            
ISS Bulletin Board
            
Space Station Mir (at NASA)
            
Planetary Missions & Materials Exploration
            
Mars Direct Manned Mission (plans)
        

        
Business

        

            
List of Commercial Space Material
            
Aerospace Business Development Center
            
The Artemis Project
            
Lunar Resources Company
        

        
Organizations & Clubs

        

            
Space Activism Home Page
            
The Planetary Society
            
TPS Guest Book
            
Island One Society
            
The Space Frontier Foundation
            
The First Millennial Foundation
            
Space Access Society
            
Artemis Society International
            
Interstellar Propulsion Society
            
National Space Society (USA)
            
International Astronomical Union (IAU)
            
American Astronomical Society
            
Spaceguard Foundation
            
MMSG: Molecular Manufacture Shortcut Group
            
MMSG Newsletter The Assembler, 1/96
            
Moscow Youth Space Center
            
Lunar Institute of Technology
            
New (preliminary) LIT site
            
Student Space Awareness Inc.
            
SEDS: Students for Expl.& Dev. of Space
        

        
Research & Educational Institutions

        

            
Space Studies Institute
            
Lunar and Planetary Institute
            
ISU - International Space University
            
Jet Propulsion Laboratory
            
National Air & Space Museum
            
Instytu Badan Kosmicznych Rosyjskiej AN
            
Sternberg Astronomical Institute
            
Faculty of Spacecraft Technology at TU-IAA Berlin
            
Centrum Badan Kosmicznych PAN
            
Warsaw Univ. Astronomical Obserwatory
            
Obserwatorium Astronomiczne UJ, Krakow
            
Obserwatorium na g.Suhora, Krakow
            
Centrum Astronomiczne im. M. Kopernika
            
DLR - Space programs
        

        
Astronomy

        

            
The NASA Astrophysics Data System
            
Sky & Telescope Journal
            
Astrophysical Journal
            
Astronomy Now On-Line
            
Star Facts: An Electronic Journal
            
International Comet Quarterly
            
International Astronomical Union (IAU)
            
American Astronomical Society
            
Warsaw Univ. Astronomical Obserwatory
            
Obserwatorium Astronomiczne UJ, Krakow
            
Obserwatorium na g.Suhora, Krakow
            
Centrum Astronomiczne im. M. Kopernika
            
International Dark-Sky Association
            
Global Network of Astronomical Telescopes (GNAT)
            
Hubble Space Telescope pictures
            
Bradford Robotic Telescope
        

        
Solar System

        

            
PDS: Planetary Data System Archive
            
Mars Atlas
             
Earth & Moon Galileo image
            
Introduction to The Nine Planets
            
Views Of The Solar System
            
Welcome to the Planets
            
Solar System Live
            
C/1996 B2 (Hyakutake)
        

        
Impact Dangers

        

            
Asteroid and Comet Impact Hazard
            
The Probability of Collisions with Earth
            
Spaceguard Foundation
            
Spacewatch Project
            
Amateur Sky Survey
            
Minor Planet Center of IAU
            
NEO (Near Earth Objects) [at MPC]
            
ABC of NEOs
            
European Asteroid Research Node
            
Terrestrial Impact Craters
            
Chicxulub Crater
            
Impact products in the sedimentary record
            
Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 Impact (MIT)
            
Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 Impact (HST)
        

        
Journals, books

        

            
SKY Online - Sky Publishing Corporation
            
Sky & Telescope Journal
            
Astrophysical Journal
            
Star Facts: An Electronic Journal
            
International Comet Quarterly
            
Lunar Base Quarterly
        

        
People

        

            
Robert Lentz's Space Resources
            
David Levine
            
Brandon Neill
            
Gerard O'Neill Obituary
            
Andy Pieniazek (Germany)
            
Brian Roberts
            
Timothy L.G. van der Linden
            
Eric W. Weisstein
        

        
Art

        

            
Clay Jones
        

    

    
NANOTECHNOLOGY

    

        
Nanotechnology on the WWW
        
Nanotechnology (at Xerox, by Merkle)
        
Merkle's Home Page
        
Foresight Institute
        
IMM: Inst. for Molecular Manufacturing
        
NASA nanotechnology links
        
MMSG: Molecular Manufacture Shortcut Group
        
MMSG Newsletter The Assembler, 1/96
        
NANOSYSTEMS book by Drexler
        
Scientific American on Nanotech.
        
Nanothinc Company
        
Molecular Manufacturing Enterprises Inc.
        
Molecular Simulations Inc
        
Representation Models in Molecular Graphics
        
Scanning Probe Microscopy
        
STM Image Gallery
        
Nanotechnology in Science Fiction
    






From popserver Wed Jul 10 03:55:23 GMT 1996
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	["17809" "Tue" "9" "July" "1996" "10:48:42" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "438" "Re: Space links" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,
        zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re: Space links
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 10:48:42 -0500

Now this ones going to take me a bit to check out.  I'll integrate it into
the Starship Project refernce web links page.   As soon as I get time.

Kelly


At 5:08 PM 7/9/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Tue Jul  9 14:44:49 1996
>>
>> Or just nose around looking for other web sites, newsgroups, etc with info
>> on starships, space, fusion energy or something.  If its good we can add it
>> or refference it.
>>
>Short of space links? Here are some -
>I am attaching below a part of my bookmarks file
>concerning space exploration.
>I have added also a section on nanotechnology
>(start to look at it from the MMSG pages).
>It is true that there is little on spaceships and interstellar travel,
>as my main interests are in solar system exploration.
>There soon will be another interesting site - I am working
>with my friend here on the pages for The URANOS Club
>and will post the URL when they appear on the Web.
>
>Generally, whoever finds something interesting on the Web
>on space or related issues, please post URLs here!
>
>And now, detach the text below,
>load it into your browser as a HTML file, and surrrfff!
>
>-- Zenon
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>Zenon Kulpa's Bookmarks on Space
>
>
>
>
Zenon Kulpa's Bookmarks on Space Exploration

>
>

>    
SPACE EXPLORATION

>    

>        
Space
>Development and Space Science
>        
Space
>Available
>        
HREF="http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/space.html">Human
>Expansion into Space
>        
Exploration
>        
The
>Black Horse Page
>        
IslandOne Huge Space
>Index
>        
HREF="http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/">Teleportation
>
>        
Planetary Exploration & Colonization

>        

>            
Planetary
>Science WWW Sites
>            
HREF="http://exploration.jsc.nasa.gov/explore/DATA/RESOURCE/00TOC.htm">Usin
>g Space Resources
>            
HREF="http://www-curator.jsc.nasa.gov/curator/curator.htm">Planetary
>Materials Curation at NASA JSC
>            
Center for Mars
>Exploration Home Page
>            
The
>Case for Mars Conference
>            
Mars
>Introduction
>            
HREF="http://barsoom.msss.com/http/ps/intro.html">Marslink Essays
>            
Face on
>Mars Home Page
>            
The
>Artemis Project
>            
HREF="http://www.tlrc.com/Reference_mission.html">Artemis Lunar Mission
>Plan
>            
Lunar
>Base Quarterly
>            
HREF="http://vulcain.fb12.TU-Berlin.DE/koelle/Moonbase/Inhalt.html">Moonbas
>e Development Document
>            
Intern. Lunar
>Exploration Working Group
>            
Back to the
>Moon Forum
>        

>        
Space Settlements

>        

>            
The First Millennial
>Foundation
>            
Island One Society
>            
HREF="http://www.nas.nasa.gov/NAS/SpaceSettlement/">Space Settlements at
>NASA
>        

>        
Flight & Propulsion Physics

>        

>            
Basics of Space
>Flight
>            
HREF="http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/academy/academy.html">The Liftoff
>Academy
>            
Interstellar
>Propulsion Society
>            
HREF="http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/Other_Groups/PAO/warp.htm">Warp Drive
>When?
>        

>        
Launch & Exploration Institutions

>        

>            
HREF="http://hypatia.gsfc.nasa.gov/NASA_homepage.html">NASA Main Page
>            
NASA/Marshall Space
>Flight Center
>            
HREF="http://barsoom.msss.com/http/new_directories/newhome.html">Malin
>Space Science Systems
>            
European Space Agency
>            
Russian Cosmonauts
>Training Centre
>        

>        
Missions

>        

>            
All U.S.
>Human Space Flights
>            
HREF="http://www.osf.hq.nasa.gov/spacemen.html">Missions and People in
>Space
>            
APOLLO Manned
>Missions
>            
NASA Space Shuttle Web
>Archives
>            
HREF="http://www.osf.hq.nasa.gov/shuttle/Welcomea.html">Shuttle Flights to
>Date
>            
Project
>Galileo (JPL)
>            
Galileo
>Jovian Probe (NASA Ames)
>            
International
>Space Station
>            
ISS Bulletin Board
>            
Space Station
>Mir (at NASA)
>            
HREF="http://exploration.jsc.nasa.gov/explore/explore.htm">Planetary
>Missions & Materials Exploration
>            
Mars Direct Manned
>Mission (plans)
>        

>        
Business

>        

>            
HREF="http://tanelorn.ncsa.uiuc.edu/si/space_inv.html">List of Commercial
>Space Material
>            
HREF="http://arganet.tenagra.com/Tenagra/aero_bd.html">Aerospace Business
>Development Center
>            
The Artemis Project
>            
Lunar Resources Company
>        

>        
Organizations & Clubs

>        

>            
Space
>Activism Home Page
>            
The
>Planetary Society
>            
TPS Guest
>Book
>            
Island One Society
>            
The Space
>Frontier Foundation
>            
The First Millennial
>Foundation
>            
Space Access Society
>            
Artemis
>Society International
>            
Interstellar
>Propulsion Society
>            
National Space Society (USA)
>            
HREF="http://www.lsw.uni-heidelberg.de/iau.html">International
>Astronomical Union (IAU)
>            
American Astronomical Society
>            
Spaceguard Foundation
>            
MMSG: Molecular
>Manufacture Shortcut Group
>            
HREF="http://www.islandone.org/MMSG/9601-news.html">MMSG Newsletter The
>Assembler, 1/96
>            
Moscow Youth Space
>Center
>            
Lunar Institute of
>Technology
>            
HREF="http://165.254.130.90/LIT/InterStellar/project">New (preliminary)
>LIT site
>            
HREF="http://seds.lpl.arizona.edu/ssa/ssahome.html">Student Space
>Awareness Inc.
>            
SEDS: Students for
>Expl.& Dev. of Space
>        

>        
Research & Educational Institutions

>        

>            
HREF="http://www.astro.nwu.edu/lentz/space/ssi/home-ssi.html">Space
>Studies Institute
>            
Lunar and
>Planetary Institute
>            
ISU - International Space
>University
>            
Jet Propulsion
>Laboratory
>            
National
>Air & Space Museum
>            
Instytu Badan
>Kosmicznych Rosyjskiej AN
>            
Sternberg Astronomical
>Institute
>            
Faculty of
>Spacecraft Technology at TU-IAA Berlin
>            
Centrum Badan Kosmicznych
>PAN
>            
Warsaw Univ.
>Astronomical Obserwatory
>            
Obserwatorium
>Astronomiczne UJ, Krakow
>            
Obserwatorium na
>g.Suhora, Krakow
>            
Centrum Astronomiczne
>im. M. Kopernika
>            
DLR -
>Space programs
>        

>        
Astronomy

>        

>            
The NASA Astrophysics
>Data System
>            
Sky &
>Telescope Journal
>            
Astrophysical Journal
>            
Astronomy Now
>On-Line
>            
Star Facts: An
>Electronic Journal
>            
HREF="http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/cfa/ps/icq.html">International Comet
>Quarterly
>            
HREF="http://www.lsw.uni-heidelberg.de/iau.html">International
>Astronomical Union (IAU)
>            
American Astronomical Society
>            
Warsaw Univ.
>Astronomical Obserwatory
>            
Obserwatorium
>Astronomiczne UJ, Krakow
>            
Obserwatorium na
>g.Suhora, Krakow
>            
Centrum Astronomiczne
>im. M. Kopernika
>            
HREF="http://www.darksky.org/~ida/index.html">International Dark-Sky
>Association
>            
Global
>Network of Astronomical Telescopes (GNAT)
>            
HREF="http://www.stsci.edu/pubinfo/Pictures.html">Hubble Space Telescope
>pictures
>            
Bradford
>Robotic Telescope
>        

>        
Solar System

>        

>            
PDS: Planetary Data
>System Archive
>            
HREF="http://ic-www.arc.nasa.gov/ic/projects/bayes-group/Atlas/Mars/">Mars
>Atlas
>             
HREF="http://www-pdsimage.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/PIAGenCatalogPage.pl?PIA0013
>4">Earth & Moon Galileo image
>            
HREF="http://seds.lpl.arizona.edu/billa/tnp/intro.html">Introduction to
>The Nine Planets
>            
Views
>Of The Solar System
>            
HREF="http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov:80/planets/welcome.htm">Welcome to the
>Planets
>            
Solar
>System Live
>            
HREF="http://encke.jpl.nasa.gov/comets_long/96B2.html">C/1996 B2
>(Hyakutake)
>        

>        
Impact Dangers

>        

>            
Asteroid and
>Comet Impact Hazard
>            
HREF="http://bang.lanl.gov/solarsys/comet/appendc.htm">The Probability of
>Collisions with Earth
>            
Spaceguard Foundation
>            
HREF="http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/spacewatch/">Spacewatch Project
>            
HREF="http://www.astro.princeton.edu/~richmond/tass/tass_intro.html">Amateu
>r Sky Survey
>            
Minor
>Planet Center of IAU
>            
HREF="http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/cfa/ps/NEO/TheNEOPage.html">NEO (Near
>Earth Objects) [at MPC]
>            
ABC
>of NEOs
>            
European Asteroid
>Research Node
>            
HREF="http://bang.lanl.gov/solarsys/tercrate.htm">Terrestrial Impact
>Craters
>            
HREF="http://diamond.ge.ic.ac.uk/jb03/jb03/web/chix.html">Chicxulub
>Crater
>            
HREF="http://earth.agu.org/revgeophys/claeys00/claeys00.html">Impact
>products in the sedimentary record
>            
Comet
>Shoemaker-Levy 9 Impact (MIT)
>            
Comet
>Shoemaker-Levy 9 Impact (HST)
>        

>        
Journals, books

>        

>            
SKY Online - Sky
>Publishing Corporation
>            
Sky &
>Telescope Journal
>            
Astrophysical Journal
>            
Star Facts: An
>Electronic Journal
>            
HREF="http://cfa-www.harvard.edu/cfa/ps/icq.html">International Comet
>Quarterly
>            
Lunar
>Base Quarterly
>        

>        
People

>        

>            
HREF="http://www.astro.nwu.edu/lentz/space/home-space.html">Robert Lentz's
>Space Resources
>            
David
>Levine
>            
Brandon
>Neill
>            
HREF="http://www.astro.nwu.edu/lentz/space/ssi/obit.html">Gerard O'Neill
>Obituary
>            
Andy
>Pieniazek (Germany)
>            
Brian Roberts
>            
HREF="http://www.cpedu.rug.nl/~N0642983/welcome.html">Timothy L.G. van der
>Linden
>            
Eric W.
>Weisstein
>        

>        
Art

>        

>            
Clay
>Jones
>        

>    

>    
NANOTECHNOLOGY

>    

>        
HREF="http://www.lucifer.com/~sean/Nano.html">Nanotechnology on the
>WWW
>        
Nanotechnology (at Xerox,
>by Merkle)
>        
Merkle's Home Page
>        
Foresight
>Institute
>        
IMM: Inst. for Molecular
>Manufacturing
>        
HREF="http://www.nas.nasa.gov/NAS/Education/nanotech/nanotech.html">NASA
>nanotechnology links
>        
MMSG: Molecular
>Manufacture Shortcut Group
>        
MMSG
>Newsletter The Assembler, 1/96
>        
HREF="http://nano.xerox.com/nanotech/nanosystems.html">NANOSYSTEMS book by
>Drexler
>        
HREF="http://www.sciam.com/WEB/exhibit/052796exhibit.html">Scientific
>American on Nanotech.
>        
Nanothinc Company
>        
Molecular Manufacturing
>Enterprises Inc.
>        
Molecular Simulations Inc
>        
Representation
>Models in Molecular Graphics
>        
Scanning
>Probe Microscopy
>        
HREF="http://www-i.almaden.ibm.com/vis/stm/gallery.html">STM Image
>Gallery
>        
HREF="http://www.erinet.com/prass/nanowars/ninsf/n_in_sf.html">Nanotechnolo
>gy in Science Fiction
>    

>

>
>


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Wed Jul 10 03:55:56 GMT 1996
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	["917" "Tue" "9" "July" "1996" "18:14:31" "GMT" "Rex Lessa Timothy" "Lessa@worldnet.att.net" nil "27" "" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: Rex & Timothy 
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, pbakelaar@exit109.com
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:14:31 GMT

To Philip (Ben? which one do you prefer),

For Java programs that I made, check out:

http://huizen.dds.nl/~sheliak/lit/javacalc.html
http://huizen.dds.nl/~sheliak/calc.html

As you may have guessed, my homepage is at:
http://huizen.dds.nl/~sheliak/welcome.html

To all who didn't know yet, the address of my homepage has changed!!
It is no longer at cpedu.rug.nl, (Zenon, update your bookmarks ;)

At the bottom of my bookmarks list (which is accessable from my homepage)
there are 4 links to Java stuff that me be useful for those who really want
to get into it.

Oh Philip, I'm staying with Rex for 2 weeks (minus 4 days), so don't be
confused by the Email-address.
(My normal email is T.L.G.vanderLinden@....)

If you have any questions about Javascript, don't hestiate, ask me. However
keep in mind that I just have started Javescript 1 month ago. (By the way
JavaSCRIPT is diffrent from plain Java). 

Timothy


From popserver Wed Jul 10 03:56:24 GMT 1996
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From: David Levine 
To: "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" ,
        "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'"
	 
Cc: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu"
	 ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" 
Cc: "rddesign@wolfenet.com" ,
        "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com" ,
        "DotarSojat@aol.com" ,
        "sl0c8@cc.usu.edu" ,
        "MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU" ,
        "101765.2200@compuserve.com" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>
Cc: "neill@foda.math.usu.edu" ,
        "pbakelaar@exit109.com" ,
        "zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl" 
Subject: Xenon Ion
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 17:11:31 -0400

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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A recent NASA press release mentions the Xenon Ion engine.
Isn't that an engine that originally came out of development of
the TAU project?

Apparently they're actually building the thing (not TAU, but
the engine...)

David



------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6DB9.AD8480A0--

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	["778" "Tue" "9" "July" "1996" "16:28:57" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "27" "Re: Xenon Ion" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David Levine 
Cc: "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" ,
        "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'"		 ,
        "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu"		 ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" 
Subject: Re: Xenon Ion
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 16:28:57 -0500

At 5:11 PM 7/9/96, David Levine wrote:
>A recent NASA press release mentions the Xenon Ion engine.
>Isn't that an engine that originally came out of development of
>the TAU project?
>
>Apparently they're actually building the thing (not TAU, but
>the engine...)
>
>David


I think they are starting to use Ion engines as attitude control thrusters
on the big comsats.  So the project might be justified for that even thou
TAU never went anywhere.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Wed Jul 10 03:56:47 GMT 1996
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	["1349" "Tue" "9" "July" "1996" "18:38:12" "-0400" "Philip Bakelaar" "pbakelaar@exit109.com" nil "28" "Re: New mini-LIT Member (A litte more info)" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39), KellySt@aol.com,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu
Subject: Re: New mini-LIT Member (A litte more info)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:38:12 -0400

At 07:40 AM 7/9/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>You could read through the new Website at Dave system and tell me which
>parts are clear, cloudy, interesting, yawnish.  If you can figure out why
>the map links on my nice table of content graphics on the development site
>don't work I'ld appreciate it.
>
>If you want to take a crack at progrmaing an active table to computing
>relatavistic fuel ratios for ships, or microwave power needed for a sail
>ship, that would help too.  (I'm trying to recruit someone whos trying to
>do numeric analysis, and we could use some numbers.)  (Don't worry none of
>us are comfortable with all these equations.)
>
>Or just nose around looking for other web sites, newsgroups, etc with info
>on starships, space, fusion energy or something.  If its good we can add it
>or refference it.  (I've done a few scans, but the term starship buries you
>under tons of startrek stuff!
>
>Kelly Starks

>From what I've read, Kelly, it seems you are very busy. I do have space on
my web site, as well as time to maintain the LIT page, so... the offer
stands. I would actually enjoy hosting the web site, and believe me those
links would pile up quickly! Anyway, just an offer.

Ben

About the programming, I am currently trying to learn a bit of Java or
JavaScript so I can put the programs up on a web site. 

From popserver Wed Jul 10 03:56:48 GMT 1996
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	["1523" "Tue" "9" "July" "1996" "18:42:08" "-0400" "Philip Bakelaar" "pbakelaar@exit109.com" nil "49" "Re: " "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: Rex & Timothy , KellySt@aol.com,
        kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
Subject: Re: 
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:42:08 -0400

At 06:14 PM 7/9/96 GMT, Rex & Timothy wrote:
>To Philip (Ben? which one do you prefer),

Ben, thanx.

>For Java programs that I made, check out:
>
>http://huizen.dds.nl/~sheliak/lit/javacalc.html
>http://huizen.dds.nl/~sheliak/calc.html
>
>As you may have guessed, my homepage is at:
>http://huizen.dds.nl/~sheliak/welcome.html

Well, I will have to check out those homepages
definetely, although I might already have 
yesterday. I don't remember.

>At the bottom of my bookmarks list (which is accessable from my homepage)
>there are 4 links to Java stuff that me be useful for those who really want
>to get into it.
>
>Oh Philip, I'm staying with Rex for 2 weeks (minus 4 days), so don't be
>confused by the Email-address.
>(My normal email is T.L.G.vanderLinden@....)
>
>If you have any questions about Javascript, don't hestiate, ask me. However
>keep in mind that I just have started Javescript 1 month ago. (By the way
>JavaSCRIPT is diffrent from plain Java). 

Oh boy do I have questions.. Actually, not that many. Just if you could do
this for me:

  Write an HTML document that has a JavaScript in it that have the following
  things:

    input a number
    run a number through an equation (make the number type one with lots of
      decimals, as the programs I will be writing, like the ones at LIT, 
      usually have lots of decimal places)
    print a number
    
    input text
    print text
  
    convert number to text
    
  That would be great if you could send something like that my way.
   
Ben

From popserver Wed Jul 10 05:16:56 GMT 1996
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	["3249" "Tue" "9" "July" "1996" "23:10:56" "-0700" "Kevin Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "72" "New? LIT site." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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References: 
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From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
To: David Levine 
CC: KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@CompuServe.COM, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, Lessa@worldnet.att.net
Subject: New? LIT site.
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 23:10:56 -0700

David Levine wrote:

> Kevin also has a few ideas about the future of LIT.
> Personally, I can't say I agree with him, but if you'd
> like to share your ideas, Kevin...

Thank you Dave,

As I've said to Dave before, I will now say to the whole group.  I don't want 
what I'm about to propose to split the group.  If after hearing my ideas, A clear 
majority doesn't want to endorse it, then I think it should not be pursued.  
This is why I have not said anything before this.

First some background:  I am starting a Web-publishing Business.  I have already 
secured a domain name www.URLy-Bird.com {don't bother going there, the server isn't 
up yet.) If you want a look at my page, try http://umn.edu/~hous0042/urlybird.html 

As of right now, I have two choices:
1) pay $10.00 / month and point urly-bird.com to my school account. (6 mo minimum)
2) pay $30.00 / month (and $40.00 start-up) and get 30 Megs of fast! storage space
   from a company called tabnet. http://www.tabnet.com/

I can't really afford to set up the server just yet.  but I don't want to waste 
6 months of traffic by having to switch to a server later down the road.

So here is my proposal. (at last, here's the point)

If I knew that the SSD (star ship design) Group would be willing to move to my 
server space, I could justify getting a server set up.  I would ask a one-time 
donation to help defray start-up costs (this is a donation only, no pressure)  I 
would never charge SSD for it's space, and I think that ad revenues would perhaps 
generate some extra income for the SSD group.

Benefits to SSD:
1) FTP Access to the main site.  No need to have two sites going.
2) E-mail and Majordomo.  We can get the mailing list started again!
   and auto-foreward mail addresses like KevinH@urly-bird, or TimV@urly-bird
   which would send the mail on to our normal addresses.
3) A SysAdmin who is committed {or should be ;-) } 
   (By SysAdmin, I mean the people at Sunsite, not Dave.  
   I have nothing but respect for Dave.)

Benefits to Kevin:
1) Some help with the start-up costs.
2) Extra traffic to my urly-bird site.
3) A place to help show off my web-slinging talent.
4) I hope that the combination of 2 and 3 will eventually allow me to quit my day job.

   If I've left something out, be assured it is not intentional.  I've no desire
   to cheat my friends.

What I need from you:
1) Your thoughts on this.  MANDATORY!  Even if you think this idea stinks, tell me.
   If there is enough talk against it, I will withdraw.  I don't want there to be 
   multiple sites with sets of people who don't talk to each other.  ugh!

2) Your monetary help.  Requested only.  no pressure.  no special recognition either
   way.  Judging from the size of the mailing list, I would ask $10.00 from each of 
   you to help with start-up costs.

My investment so far:
$50.00 for the registration of the URLY-bird Name   Paid
$100.00 more to Internic for two years of DNS       Still owed.

It will cost $70.00 to set up the server for the first 3 months, 
and $30.00 each month thereafter.  I hope to sell server space for 
$2.00/Megabyte/month and to sell ads.

Well, thats it.  if you think this idea is Good, Bad or not-fully-thought-out,
Please let us all know.

Kevin

From popserver Wed Jul 10 05:16:58 GMT 1996
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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: David@interworld.com, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
cc: hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu
Subject: Re: Xenon Ion
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:22:33 -0400

Speak of the devil.


ENGINE BUILT TO CATCH A COMET BEGINS ENDURANCE TEST

    A new NASA spacecraft engine that begins flight at less 
than a snail's pace but builds up enough speed to catch a 
comet will soon be used to push exploring spacecraft to the 
far reaches of the solar system.

     A prototype of a xenon ion engine, which fires 
electrically-charged atoms from its thruster, began a nearly 
year-long endurance test April 30 at NASA's Jet Propulsion 
Laboratory, Pasadena, CA.

    Once validated by the test, a similar engine will power 
the first New Millennium mission, called Deep Space-1, to an 
asteroid and a comet in 1998.  The comet will be West-
Kohoutek-Ikemura and the asteroid will be McAuliffe, named 
after the school teacher Christa McAuliffe who died in the 
Challenger accident.

    "NASA has been experimenting with ion drive engines for 
30 years," said Jack Stocky, manager of the ion propulsion 
system project.  "However, this test will be the most 
extensively instrumented endurance test of an ion engine ever 
performed."

    In space, the 11.8-inch diameter engine will use the 
heavy but inert xenon gas as fuel and be powered by more than 
2,000 watts from large solar arrays provided by the Ballistic 
Missile Defense Organization.  The actual thrust comes from 
accelerating and expelling the positively-charged atoms, 
called ions.  The thrusting action is similar to that of 
chemical propellant engines which expel burning gases, except 
that such engines can produce up to millions of pounds of 
thrust.  The engines in rockets that lift the Space Shuttle, 
for instance, combine metal-warping heat with an Earth-
shaking roar and quickly lift the Shuttle to more than 17,000 
miles per hour.

    An ion engine, however, starts with only about 20-
thousandths of a pound of thrust.  There's no roar, just an 
eerie blue glow.  While the atoms, charged by an electric arc 
which removes one of the 54 electrons around its nucleus, are 
fired in great numbers out the thruster at more than 70,000 
miles an hour, their accumulative mass is so low, the 
spacecraft moves only millimeters per second in its early 
stages of flight.

    Still, ion propulsion is more propellant efficient than 
chemical propulsion because it expels molecules from the 
engine at a much higher speed, Stocky said.  A chemical 
propulsion engine has an exhaust velocity of 10,400 miles per 
hour while ion propulsion exhaust is 70,200 miles per hour.

    Built at NASA's Lewis Research Center, Cleveland, OH, the 
engine will be tested for 8,000 hours (330 days) in the 
space-like environment of JPL's vacuum chamber.  "Ion engines 
have such low thrust they cannot operate in an atmosphere and 
have to be tested in a vacuum," said Dr. John Brophy, user 
validation assessment manager  for the project.  "JPL has the 
technical expertise and the cost-effective facility for the 
test."  The test is designed to run full power for two days 
and then shut off for one hour and restart.  This stressing 
process will be repeated until 8,000 hours of operation have 
been accumulated.

    After Deep Space-1 is launched by an expendable rocket 
with sufficient power to escape Earth's gravity, it will be 
in orbit around the Sun moving at the same speed the Earth 
moves in its orbit.  That means that relative to Earth, the 
spacecraft will not be moving at all.  But slowly, the low-
thrust ion engine will increase and the spacecraft's velocity 
over time to greet its celestial target at more than 22,000 
miles per hour, fast enough to rendezvous with a comet or 
asteroid.  The prototype ion engine carries 176 pounds of 
xenon in a tank, which in flight would last from one to two 
years, depending on its destination and the amount of total 
thrusting required, Brophy said.  Deep Space-1 will consume 
only 99 pounds of xenon during its mission.

                -end-

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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com
Cc: zkulpa
Subject: Re: New? LIT site.
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 96 13:58:25 +0200

> From hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Wed Jul 10 06:19:44 1996
> 
> [...]
>
> What I need from you:
> 1) Your thoughts on this.  MANDATORY!  Even if you think this idea stinks, tell me.
>
Seems interesting to me. At least, this has a chance 
to be a "professional" site with constant maintenance
and little or no problems with the provider...
(or am I mistaken?  ;-)
There is the Ben's proposal, too, but it seems 
less "professional" in the above sense (sorry, Ben...).


>    If there is enough talk against it, I will withdraw.  I don't want there to be 
>    multiple sites with sets of people who don't talk to each other.  ugh!
> 
> 2) Your monetary help.  Requested only.  no pressure.  no special recognition either
>    way.  Judging from the size of the mailing list, I would ask $10.00 from each of 
>    you to help with start-up costs.
> 
This may scare away some of us, especially these far away...


> I hope to sell server space for 
> $2.00/Megabyte/month and to sell ads.
> 
Do you mean ads will be displayed at the LIT pages?
It has its advantages (e.g., possibility for sponsorships)
and disadvantages (e.g., labelling the site as "commercial").

-- Zenon

From popserver Wed Jul 10 15:41:26 GMT 1996
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	["2425" "Wed" "10" "July" "1996" "07:17:24" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "61" "Re: New mini-LIT Member (A litte more info)" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Philip Bakelaar 
Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39), KellySt@aol.com,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu
Subject: Re: New mini-LIT Member (A litte more info)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 07:17:24 -0500

At 6:38 PM 7/9/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote:
>At 07:40 AM 7/9/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>>You could read through the new Website at Dave system and tell me which
>>parts are clear, cloudy, interesting, yawnish.  If you can figure out why
>>the map links on my nice table of content graphics on the development site
>>don't work I'ld appreciate it.
>>
>>If you want to take a crack at progrmaing an active table to computing
>>relatavistic fuel ratios for ships, or microwave power needed for a sail
>>ship, that would help too.  (I'm trying to recruit someone whos trying to
>>do numeric analysis, and we could use some numbers.)  (Don't worry none of
>>us are comfortable with all these equations.)
>>
>>Or just nose around looking for other web sites, newsgroups, etc with info
>>on starships, space, fusion energy or something.  If its good we can add it
>>or refference it.  (I've done a few scans, but the term starship buries you
>>under tons of startrek stuff!
>>
>>Kelly Starks
>
>>From what I've read, Kelly, it seems you are very busy. I do have space on
>my web site, as well as time to maintain the LIT page, so... the offer
>stands. I would actually enjoy hosting the web site, and believe me those
>links would pile up quickly! Anyway, just an offer.
>
>Ben

Thanks Ben.  I'm not realy short of space, just time.  I also think its a
good idea to consolodate the project stuff on one central site not
distributed amoung peoples personal sites.  (Our members tend to come and
go.  Which could cause sections of the system to disapear with them.)  On
the other hand having some assistence in sorting out links and checking out
the web pages would be great.  I'll see what we can set up.


>
>About the programming, I am currently trying to learn a bit of Java or
>JavaScript so I can put the programs up on a web site.

Sounds good.  We'll have to coordinate efforts.

Right now I'ld guess the priorities should probably be in geting the new
web pages cleaned, seting up a new set of web links, and restaring the
newsletters.

(Comments group?)

We'll talk in a bit.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Wed Jul 10 15:42:04 GMT 1996
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	["2529" "Wed" "10" "July" "1996" "10:22:56" "-0400" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "56" "RE: New? LIT site." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: David Levine 
To: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu"
	 ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" 
To: "rddesign@wolfenet.com" ,
        "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com" ,
        "DotarSojat@aol.com" ,
        "sl0c8@cc.usu.edu" ,
        "MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU" ,
        "101765.2200@compuserve.com" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>
To: "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" ,
        "neill@foda.math.usu.edu" ,
        "pbakelaar@exit109.com" ,
        "'zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl'" 
Cc: zkulpa 
Subject: RE: New? LIT site.
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:22:56 -0400

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.  Contact your
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>> 2) Your monetary help.  Requested only.  no pressure.  no special
>recognition either
>>    way.  Judging from the size of the mailing list, I would ask $10.00
>from each of 
>>    you to help with start-up costs.
>> 
>This may scare away some of us, especially these far away...
>
>
>> I hope to sell server space for 
>> $2.00/Megabyte/month and to sell ads.
>> 
>Do you mean ads will be displayed at the LIT pages?
>It has its advantages (e.g., possibility for sponsorships)
>and disadvantages (e.g., labelling the site as "commercial").
>
>-- Zenon


Yes, these were my two concerns as well.  Obviously, $10 is not a lot of
money... but I always wanted it to be totally free to everyone, just to sort
of "take the pressure off".  And while I'm not concerned with labelling the
site commercial (we could just call it a "sponsorship"... certainly we won't
be endorsing a certain brand of starship... corporate sponsorship really
can't affect the content of such a site) I don't know if LIT itself would
attract
any sponsorship... the number of hits is (while high for a science site)
depressingly low for commercial use.  However, Kevin has already told
me that even "if that [a high hit count] never happened, i would be pleased
as punch to have LIT at my web server."

The only other reason I may seem apprehensive about all this is that I
had a very very similar offer of help once before from a guy who was the
sysadmin for a major ISP in Chicago - we had our own domain name
(lunar.org), unlimited space, a helpful sysadmin, *fast* access times,
etc.  But eventually he ran into problems providing time and space, and
his bosses asked him to shut LIT down - - without warning, the web site
was inaccessable.  I could still log on, but ALL THE FILES WERE GONE.
Luckily, after much yelling he was able to return most of my stuff, which
I eventually got SunSITE to accept.... I know they're not going away.  Now
while I know Kevin has the best (BEST) intentions, and has no plans on
giving up on LIT... well, you see, I have to be careful and plan for future
contingencies, no matter how unlikely they seem now.



------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6E49.C530D380--

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	["2530" "Wed" "10" "July" "1996" "10:30:00" "-0400" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "57" "RE: New? LIT site." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: David Levine 
To: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu"
	 ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" 
To: "rddesign@wolfenet.com" ,
        "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com" ,
        "DotarSojat@aol.com" ,
        "sl0c8@cc.usu.edu" ,
        "MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU" ,
        "101765.2200@compuserve.com" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>
To: "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" ,
        "neill@foda.math.usu.edu" ,
        "pbakelaar@exit109.com" ,
        "'zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl'" 
Cc: zkulpa 
Subject: RE: New? LIT site.
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:30:00 -0400

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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>> 2) Your monetary help.  Requested only.  no pressure.  no special
>recognition either
>>    way.  Judging from the size of the mailing list, I would ask $10.00
>from each of 
>>    you to help with start-up costs.
>> 
>This may scare away some of us, especially these far away...
>
>
>> I hope to sell server space for 
>> $2.00/Megabyte/month and to sell ads.
>> 
>Do you mean ads will be displayed at the LIT pages?
>It has its advantages (e.g., possibility for sponsorships)
>and disadvantages (e.g., labelling the site as "commercial").
>
>-- Zenon


Yes, these were my two concerns as well.  Obviously, $10 is not a lot of
money... but I always wanted it to be totally free to everyone, just to sort
of "take the pressure off".  And while I'm not concerned with labelling the
site commercial (we could just call it a "sponsorship"... certainly we won't
be endorsing a certain brand of starship... corporate sponsorship really
can't affect the content of such a site) I don't know if LIT itself would
attract
any sponsorship... the number of hits is (while high for a science site)
depressingly low for commercial use.  However, Kevin has already told
me that even "if that [a high hit count] never happened, i would be pleased
as punch to have LIT at my web server."

The only other reason I may seem apprehensive about all this is that I
had a very very similar offer of help once before from a guy who was the
sysadmin for a major ISP in Chicago - we had our own domain name
(lunar.org), unlimited space, a helpful sysadmin, *fast* access times,
etc.  But eventually he ran into problems providing time and space, and
his bosses asked him to shut LIT down - - without warning, the web site
was inaccessable.  I could still log on, but ALL THE FILES WERE GONE.
Luckily, after much yelling he was able to return most of my stuff, which
I eventually got SunSITE to accept.... I know they're not going away.  Now
while I know Kevin has the best (BEST) intentions, and has no plans on
giving up on LIT... well, you see, I have to be careful and plan for future
contingencies, no matter how unlikely they seem now.




------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6E4A.C3DA9CE0--

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	["2762" "Wed" "10" "July" "1996" "16:41:07" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "59" "RE: New? LIT site." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com
Subject: RE: New? LIT site.
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 96 16:41:07 +0200

> From David@InterWorld.com Wed Jul 10 16:24:52 1996
> From: David Levine 
> To: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
>         "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu"
> 	 ,
>         "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" ,
>         "stevev@efn.org" ,
>         "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
>         "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" 
> To: "rddesign@wolfenet.com" ,
>         "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com" ,
>         "DotarSojat@aol.com" ,
>         "sl0c8@cc.usu.edu" ,
>         "MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU" ,
>         "101765.2200@compuserve.com" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>
> To: "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" ,
>         "neill@foda.math.usu.edu" ,
>         "pbakelaar@exit109.com" ,
>         "'zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl'" 
> Cc: zkulpa 
> Subject: RE: New? LIT site.
> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:22:56 -0400
> X-Mailer:  Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.12.736
> Content-Length: 2117
> 
> The only other reason I may seem apprehensive about all this is that I
> had a very very similar offer of help once before from a guy who was the
> sysadmin for a major ISP in Chicago - we had our own domain name
> (lunar.org), 
>
Yes, I remember the site, I have started my LIT membership from there,
after finding a link at the "Best of the Web" award page...


> unlimited space, a helpful sysadmin, *fast* access times,
> etc.  But eventually he ran into problems providing time and space, and
> his bosses asked him to shut LIT down - - without warning, the web site
> was inaccessable.  I could still log on, but ALL THE FILES WERE GONE.
> Luckily, after much yelling he was able to return most of my stuff, which
> I eventually got SunSITE to accept.... 
>
I wonder - what are the reasons of this site becoming defunct?
Problems with the provider, or you, Dave, bored of maintaining it?
I do not remember reading the explanation (or forgot it, possibly).


> I know they're not going away.  Now
> while I know Kevin has the best (BEST) intentions, and has no plans on
> giving up on LIT... well, you see, I have to be careful and plan for future
> contingencies, no matter how unlikely they seem now.
> 

BTW, you have my address listed several times in your header
(see above), so I am regularly receiving at least two copies
of your postings (and this one arrived even in four copies,
I am not sure why. 
Such bandwidth waste, Dave... :-).

-- Zenon

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From: David Levine 
To: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu"
	 ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" 
To: "rddesign@wolfenet.com" ,
        "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com" ,
        "DotarSojat@aol.com" ,
        "sl0c8@cc.usu.edu" ,
        "MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU" ,
        "101765.2200@compuserve.com" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>
To: "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" ,
        "neill@foda.math.usu.edu" ,
        "pbakelaar@exit109.com" 
Subject: RE: New? LIT site.
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:48:11 -0400

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this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.  Contact your
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>> I eventually got SunSITE to accept.... 
>>
>I wonder - what are the reasons of this site becoming defunct?
>Problems with the provider, or you, Dave, bored of maintaining it?
>I do not remember reading the explanation (or forgot it, possibly).

Oh, mainly only I have an account there, but it seems better to allow
everyone who's a major participant to have access to the pages, so
SunSITE hasn't really been abandoned... just temporarily "on the sidelines".
When the development site is ready to go live, I will begin mirroring
the development site at SunSITE, so the "development team" will
effectively have access to SunSITE.
>

>BTW, you have my address listed several times in your header
>(see above), so I am regularly receiving at least two copies
>of your postings (and this one arrived even in four copies,
>I am not sure why. 
>Such bandwidth waste, Dave... :-).

Whoops.  I'm not sure what was going on (i.e. why your name
was listed several times... I just hit the "reply-to-all" button),
but I think I've fixed it...



------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6E4D.4BA39710--

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	["7715" "Wed" "10" "July" "1996" "10:35:41" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "195" "Re: New? LIT site." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
Cc: David Levine , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@CompuServe.COM,
        kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu,
        Lessa@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: New? LIT site.
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:35:41 -0500

Oddly I just stumbled over other related SSD rehost concepts.  Must be the
timing.  I'll try to write up everything I can tyhink of and list the pros
and cons.

1) Stay at SunSite


Good
SunSite is free and the site itself probably won't go away.

Bad
I think were all tired of Sunsites erratic problems.  (Parts of LIT
disapper or stop functioning. )  Given some of Daves comments and
difficulty in geting things back on line, I'm sure he'ld like LIT to get
off there too.  Also only Dave has update access to the site.  Thats good
for security (and consistency), but Daves working for a growing little
start-up company.  He can be unable to do anything for weeks at a time, and
we have noone else who can back him up.



2) Rehost to daves office workstation.

Good
Dave had said he was considering that, and it would give us free access.

Bad
But that could be pressing things with his company; and could get yanked in
short order if Dave gets a new job, or the company orders him to remove it.
Also we seem to have problems with geting things working on his
workstation.


3) rehost to one or more of our private accounts.

Good
Still low cost.  We all have various accounts, and one or more could hold
the active parts of SSD.  I thought about loading things into my AOL
account, Ben just offered ect.  I could set up a mail newletter easy
enough.  A comercial account would get comercial system support (real back
ups done by someone else!)

Bad
But we tend to come and go.  If one of us left, or became unavalible for a
while, they could crater SSD.


4) Piggy back on Kevins start up busness.

As Kevin listed

SSD pay part of the $30.00 / month (and $40.00 start-up) and gets part of
30 Megs of fast! storage space from a company called tabnet.
http://www.tabnet.com/


Good
-  FTP Access to the main site.  No need to have two sites going.
-  E-mail and Majordomo.  We can get the mailing list started again!
   and auto-foreward mail addresses like KevinH@urly-bird, or TimV@urly-bird
   which would send the mail on to our normal addresses.
-  A SysAdmin (Kevin) who is committed to supporting us.

Also SSD could start geting comercial sponcers from space related groups
(Magazines and interest groups for example) I'm making some inquires.  We
don't get a ton of traffic (thou that could improve if we could keep the
site active and updated) but we should be able to defray some of these
costs.

We also get to help Kevin in his new busness.  (And I get to start showing
off my web skills on My resume!)

Bad
On the other hand start up busnesses usually fail.  We could wind up
looking for a new home.  (we definately would want to get a InterNIC Domain
Registration name so people could link to us with a name we could transfer
quickly to a new site.  But that would add another $100 start up cost.)
And of course we are cheap sorts and don't want to pay.


4) A friend I know in DC has started up a web busness there and just
(yesterday) offered to host us for free to help advertize his site.

Goods and Bads are about the same for Kevs site.  Except, its free again,
but my friend is a bit of a flake and might dump us or go out of busness.


5)  AOL might host us

As you probably all know America OnLine has a massive presence on the net
(hint: their Network is 1/3rd of the Internets backbone) and offers server
host functions.  What I just found out yesterday (the timing of all this is
weird?) is that AOL donates serves and equipment to worthy causes and
interests.  I'm talking with them now.  They supprt list server (like our
newsletter) for free, and MAY be willing to give us an account.

Good
    Lots of free support and authoring software
    If anybody stays on the net they will!
    Fast access to the net (no suprize there).
    Disk Space: 50MB
    Transfer allowance: 1,500MB per month
           This is equivalent to a 100KB file being uploaded or downloaded
500 times a day.
    FTP access to your site
    Standard scripts for hit counters, form handling, and email.
    Create your own email aliases, such as info@yourdomain.com -- free of
charge.


Bad

If they don't want to  support us for free their rates are high.  For a basic (
Domain) account.

    $  99 - Onetime Startup Fee (for current AOL members!)
    $ 100 - Initial InterNIC Domain Registration (2 year registration)
    $  99 - Per month
    ____
    $298 - Total to be launched



I guess my thoughs are that we should look at geting off of SunSite.  They
arn't very supportive, and we need to get somewhere we can support our site
and reactivate it. But we probably should not put things on one of our
private accounts or office systems.  Its too likly that that someone could
have a change of interest or suddenly find we over run what their account
provider will tolerate.

I'm also concerned over accepting Kevin's offer, and even more reluctant to
accept my friend in D.C's offer.  Eiather could run into problems and fold
out from under us or just lose.  Kevin isn't likly to lose interest, and I
doubt he'll just dump us without warning (I just got Dave's horror story),
but he could run into problems.  If so we might be forced to pitch in some
money for a while.  On the other hand we might attract enough sponsership
from space related groups to by the overhead.  (I talked to the guy at the
Interstelar propulsion group and he said they have gotten far more interest
and input then they expected. This suprised me since they seem like a dead
site and even the admin addreses are dead, but if the can do it and get a
bit of sponcership we should be able to get a bit.)

I guess my thought would be that a major sponcer like AOL (whos rich enough
write us off as a novelty forever) could provide us with a stable high
quality site.  Which sounds ideal, if they are interested.  Kevin would be
a good secound.  He's motivated and VERY unlikly to casually burn us, and
moving to a comercial site could be self supporting and more stable.  But
the cost could become a problem; and he could go broke or be overwelmed by
his new busness.  Which brings us back to staying at Sunsite.  (I'ld reject
the other two options as undesirable unless SunSite bails.)



I guess the questions we need to resolve are:

What do we want to do with LIT?
Its newsletter have been off-line for most of a year and the site
unmodified for longer (I think?).  If we don't want to do much, we can just
leave it at SunSite until they dump it.  If we want to reactivate it and
upgrade things more frequently, can SunSite support that?



How much work do we want to put into?
It needs restructuring and cleaning, updates to contents, and restart to
the newsletters.  Dave's on-line university dream doesn't seem to be
developing.  But a space development group could be added and could be
linked to other space advocacy groups, and SSD seems likely to generate
longterm interest.  Especially since we're making some progress on the
designs.  If we want to do more, we need to figure out how much support
we'll need, and what kind off account service it would take to supply it.
(I want the site refurbed and upgraded by the fall semester!!  I'ld prefer
it sooner!)



What are the bottle necks that are geting in our way, and which option
offers the best chance of getting around them?


Well I've given my overview of options and pros and cons.  Please argue the
points or state your views.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: David Levine 
To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" 
Cc: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" ,
        "rddesign@wolfenet.com" 
Cc: "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com" ,
        "DotarSojat@aol.com" ,
        "sl0c8@cc.usu.edu" ,
        "MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU" ,
        "101765.2200@CompuServe.COM" <101765.2200@CompuServe.COM>,
        "neill@foda.math.usu.edu" 
Cc: "Lessa@worldnet.att.net" 
Subject: RE: New? LIT site.
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:52:39 -0400

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>I think were all tired of Sunsites erratic problems.  (Parts of LIT
>disapper or stop functioning. )  Given some of Daves comments and

A note on this - SunSITE is getting better.  As a whole, the system is
always running, because of the vast number of projects its supports.
They've recently upgraded their connection speed (and claim to have
one of the highest bandwidth connections on the net... it's still somewhat
slow due to the sheer volume of traffic it supports) and instituted a new,
comprehensive backup policy.

Also, my basic idea has been not to relocate LIT to my computer, but
use my computer as a "staging server", with the main access point to
LIT remaining at SunSITE.  This gives everyone access (via my computer)
to the site, while still keeping it at a high profile (and stable) site.

I have to admit, if AOL gives that kind of stuff out for free, it sounds
very
attractive.

As for the size of the site... I'm not sure.  It's quite large, currently
multiple
megs - there's some AVI files floating around, and the archives themselves
are quite big.  I'm guessing it's 10 megs, but that's a guess.  Obviously,
it would grow frequently if we set things up right.

I'll check the map stuff later today.

Restructuring the LIT config?  You'll have to be more specific, please.


-dml


------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6E56.4F213600--

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David Levine 
Cc: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu"		 ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" 
Subject: RE: New? LIT site.
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:41:48 -0500

At 10:48 AM 7/10/96, David Levine wrote:
>>> I eventually got SunSITE to accept....
>>>
>>I wonder - what are the reasons of this site becoming defunct?
>>Problems with the provider, or you, Dave, bored of maintaining it?
>>I do not remember reading the explanation (or forgot it, possibly).
>
>Oh, mainly only I have an account there, but it seems better to allow
>everyone who's a major participant to have access to the pages, so
>SunSITE hasn't really been abandoned... just temporarily "on the sidelines".
>When the development site is ready to go live, I will begin mirroring
>the development site at SunSITE, so the "development team" will
>effectively have access to SunSITE.

Dave, any idea what's going on with the Map links?  Any plans about
restructuring the LIT config?

Oh, how much data space does LIT take?  If I'm going to ask for a free
account, I need to know how much space it would need.


>>BTW, you have my address listed several times in your header
>>(see above), so I am regularly receiving at least two copies
>>of your postings (and this one arrived even in four copies,
>>I am not sure why.
>>Such bandwidth waste, Dave... :-).
>
>Whoops.  I'm not sure what was going on (i.e. why your name
>was listed several times... I just hit the "reply-to-all" button),
>but I think I've fixed it...


I think it was a hick-up.  I got two copies of the previous post too.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: RE: New? LIT site.
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:08:16 -0500

Whos Lessa@worldnet.att.net ?


At 11:52 AM 7/10/96, David Levine wrote:
>>I think were all tired of Sunsites erratic problems.  (Parts of LIT
>>disapper or stop functioning. )  Given some of Daves comments and
>
>A note on this - SunSITE is getting better.  As a whole, the system is
>always running, because of the vast number of projects its supports.
>They've recently upgraded their connection speed (and claim to have
>one of the highest bandwidth connections on the net... it's still somewhat
>slow due to the sheer volume of traffic it supports) and instituted a new,
>comprehensive backup policy.

Ah I didn't know that.  I knew you were having a lot of trouble a year or
two back, and when the newsletters crashed you were haveing trouble getting
them back on line (and never did).  So I assumed SunSite was still flaky.
(Also things like majordomo or something to automate the maillists for the
newsletters.)

If SunSites smothing out thou, that would change the perspective a bit.


>Also, my basic idea has been not to relocate LIT to my computer, but
>use my computer as a "staging server", with the main access point to
>LIT remaining at SunSITE.  This gives everyone access (via my computer)
>to the site, while still keeping it at a high profile (and stable) site.

I thought you mentioned something about puting more functions on your
server.  Mail account, DB search functions etc..

>I have to admit, if AOL gives that kind of stuff out for free, it sounds
>very attractive.

Yeah, my old collage (University of Wisconson Parkside) got shadow site
support for music archive under their program.  So I thought it was worth
looking into for us.  Don't know if they'll go for it, but it seemed worth
a try.  If you have stats or info that make us seem more charity
interesting Pass it along!

(See http://www.aol.com/give/  )

>As for the size of the site... I'm not sure.  It's quite large, currently
>multiple
>megs - there's some AVI files floating around, and the archives themselves
>are quite big.  I'm guessing it's 10 megs, but that's a guess.  Obviously,
>it would grow frequently if we set things up right.

Hum, the new stuff I'm working on is about 2 meg.  With all the archives
and such I expected LIT would be more.  I could shadow up to 10 on my
personal account (thou I'ld have to subdevide it across 5 subaccounts).

>I'll check the map stuff later today.

Ok, thanks.  I'm going to try some stuff here too.

>Restructuring the LIT config?  You'll have to be more specific, please.


Oh, just what we had talked about a few months back.  Maybe triming off
sections that arn't going anywhere.  Like the branches that take you to the
(non-existent) class lists, collages of ocean engineering and exo-studies,
etc..  Also flatening the structuire a bit so things like the Starship
Design project, refernce stuff and computer support are closer to the home
page and eisier to find.  Stuff like that to make it a bit easier to get
around in, and focuses more attention on the live sections.

(HEY GROUP!  Any oppinons out there?)

I could try to work up some ideas and charts if you'ld like.  (Yes things
are quite around the office this week.)

Kelly

P.S.
I'm having trouble with my "reply to all" function too?  It droped everyone
in the CC list?  Never known Eudora to do that.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David Levine 
Cc: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" ,
        "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" ,
        "rddesign@wolfenet.com" 
Subject: RE: New? LIT site.
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:07:16 -0500

At 11:52 AM 7/10/96, David Levine wrote:
>
>Restructuring the LIT config?  You'll have to be more specific, please.
>
>-dml

For example:  The main lit home page has a link to the school of star ship
design, which has a link to an index of services and the project page.  The
last two have virtually the same links, and almost all the links in the
last three are in my Starship Design Project page.  In a similar way some
related member lists, member web pages, and communication pages could be
murged.

Branches to pages listing classes, student organizations, student Kiosk etc
serve no purpose.  (Thou we might want to set up special event functions
for chat events, seminars or anything else we may add later.)

The Main LIT home page has branches to:

       Access Statistics
       College of Engineering, School of Marine Sciences
       College of Engineering, School of Mining
       College of Engineering, School of Starship Design
       College of Medicine
       School of Exo-Science and Alien Studies
       Student Organizations


Of these
       Access Statistics
       College of Engineering, School of Marine Sciences
           No Link
       College of Engineering, School of Mining
       College of Engineering, School of Starship Design
       College of Medicine
           No link
       School of Exo-Science and Alien Studies
           Interesting but parts are still broken like Archaeo seti.
           Part seems more like a games area.  Parts would fit in SSD under
           exobio.
       Student Organizations
            Only lists MST3K.  We could list this under Member interests
           (along with B5 and a few other things. ;)


Give these problems and you latest commentt Dave.  How about:

       Access Statistics
       Marine Development Project (If You still want to try it?)
       Near Earth Development Project
           I figure Lunar mining and exploration would fit in this Cat
       Solar systen Development Project
           Solar system exploration, Mining, etc would fit in here.
       Starship Design Project
           The star ship design project With some of the exobiology parts


Some text explaining the site might be good here, and a link to the members
info.

Comments?  Shock?  Horror?  Disinterest?

I have charts diagraming the old and new proposed if anyones interested.
(Slow day, and the new Map program didn't work out to well.)

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: David Levine 
To: "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" 
Cc: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        "KellySt@aol.com"
	 ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl"
	 ,
        "stevev@efn.org"
	 ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu"
	 ,
        "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl"
	 
Cc: "rddesign@wolfenet.com" 
Subject: RE: New? LIT site.
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 17:24:09 -0400

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I fixed the TOC map for you to work properly with IIS now.  I have a
conversion program
that will let me convert it back to NCSA when we mirror it later.

One comment, though.  The TOC graphic is 190k.  Perhaps I should change it
to a JPEG
and see if it's any smaller?

>       Marine Development Project (If You still want to try it?)

Yup.  Basically I'm going to start with the Europa Underwater Explorer,
which comes up
so often in sci.space.tech that it should be in a FAQ somewhere.

>       Solar systen Development Project
>           Solar system exploration, Mining, etc would fit in here.

Also a sort of compliment-site to SSD, but for in-system craft (i.e. more
realistic
technology, more believable that it could happen soon)

>Comments?  Shock?  Horror?  Disinterest?

New organization seems good.

David


------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6E84.9B5A1090--

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From: David Levine 
To: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu"
	 ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" 
To: "rddesign@wolfenet.com" ,
        "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com" ,
        "DotarSojat@aol.com" ,
        "sl0c8@cc.usu.edu" ,
        "MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU" ,
        "101765.2200@compuserve.com" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>
To: "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" 
Subject: OTP
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 17:28:15 -0400

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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Anyone out there with a fast connection (ISDN or above), Netscape 3.0 beta,
and
a Windows machine want to help me test out a multiplayer java game?

I need to see what its response time is over the internet in general.

Already tried MSIE (doesn't work yet... java support very buggy) and Mac
(doesn't work
yet... java support very buggy) and I'm not ready to test over modems yet. 
But
our local subnet tests have been very positive so far.  Anyway, it's fun -
whaddya say?


------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6E85.2F656320--

From popserver Wed Jul 10 22:42:21 GMT 1996
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	["2331" "Wed" "10" "July" "1996" "18:30:21" "-0400" "Philip Bakelaar" "pbakelaar@exit109.com" nil "55" "Re: New? LIT site." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa), KellySt@aol.com,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu
Subject: Re: New? LIT site.
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 18:30:21 -0400

At 01:58 PM 7/10/96 +0200, Zenon Kulpa wrote:

>Seems interesting to me. At least, this has a chance 
>to be a "professional" site with constant maintenance
>and little or no problems with the provider...
>(or am I mistaken?  ;-)
>There is the Ben's proposal, too, but it seems 
>less "professional" in the above sense (sorry, Ben...).

Thats OK Zenon. As long as whoever runs the site has time
enough to maintain it! My offer still stands though, and
actually, I was thinking of collecting $5 each (voluntary,
of course) to get a domain name.

>
>>    If there is enough talk against it, I will withdraw.  I don't want
there to be 
>>    multiple sites with sets of people who don't talk to each other.  ugh!

Jeez.. do you think that could really happen?
Actually, I guess i *maybe* could see how, but that
still is not cool. Even though I want very much to 
host the web site, I will of course back down on my
offer, especially since I have been a member for
only 2 days! >:)

>> 2) Your monetary help.  Requested only.  no pressure.  no special
recognition either
>>    way.  Judging from the size of the mailing list, I would ask $10.00
from each of 
>>    you to help with start-up costs.

Isn't someone on this mailing list already an Internet provider. I thought
i found (GulfNet) as one of the users home pages. Well, anyway, if they are
on here, wouldn't they be able to offer discount rates and stuff? I really
don't know alot about ISPs, so maybe this is impossible.. an idea, anyway.
 
>> I hope to sell server space for 
>> $2.00/Megabyte/month and to sell ads.
>> 
>Do you mean ads will be displayed at the LIT pages?
>It has its advantages (e.g., possibility for sponsorships)
>and disadvantages (e.g., labelling the site as "commercial").

I personally think ads are a bad idea, *UNLESS* they are only
space-related. For example, get Nasa, the NSS, and others to
sort of advertise. Maybe we could work out some deal where all
the major space sites (Nasa, LIT, Seds, NSS, whatever else) 
advertise on each others page. This would be good for the 
scientific world. If you want to know how it would be good,
well, I searched for many days in the past looking for space
web sites and such, but I only found star trek stuff and LIT.
I never heard of Seds and NSS before Zenon (thanx, Zenon!)

Those are my thoughts...

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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu
Subject: My (temporary) LIT Site...
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:00:41 -0400

OK.. first off, I am not implying that my page will be our
permanent one. Just look at the subject title of this 
letter. The purpose is to gather information so that when
our permanent site is made (once again!) we will have
all this stuff.

Please visit my site @:
http://www.exit109.com/~pbakelaar/lir

Right now it IS under construction, but the space programs
ARE working, except for the Time Distance one. I could not
figure out how to convert the BASIC formula into a Java
one. If anyone has any ideas, EMail me!


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	["1254" "Wed" "10" "July" "1996" "21:41:25" "-0700" "Kevin Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "36" "Re: New? LIT site." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
To: Zenon Kulpa 
CC: KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@CompuServe.COM,
        kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,
        zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re: New? LIT site.
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:41:25 -0700

Zenon Kulpa wrote:
> 

> Seems interesting to me. At least, this has a chance
> to be a "professional" site with constant maintenance
> and little or no problems with the provider...

Is that a yes, a no, or a maybe?


> > 2) Your monetary help.  Requested only.  no pressure.  no special recognition either
> >    way.  Judging from the size of the mailing list, I would ask $10.00 from each of
> >    you to help with start-up costs.
> >
> This may scare away some of us, especially these far away...

I must not have been very clear.  I would not ask for money again.  I'm only asking it 
of those now on the mail-list (If you are reading this, then  I'm asking you) but new 
members would not be asked.

> 
> > I hope to sell server space for
> > $2.00/Megabyte/month and to sell ads.
> >
> Do you mean ads will be displayed at the LIT pages?

Ads _could_ be displayed, that is not mandatory.  it certainly requires group concensus 
before hand.  I mostly meant that URLY-BIRD.com wold be selling server space and ads.

> It has its advantages (e.g., possibility for sponsorships)
> and disadvantages (e.g., labelling the site as "commercial").

www.urly-bird.com  _will_ be a commercial site.  SSD may join that site and display ads 
or not.

Kevin

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From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
CC: David Levine , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@CompuServe.COM,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, Lessa@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: New? LIT site.
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:26:22 -0700

Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:

> 4) Piggy back on Kevins start up busness.
> 
> As Kevin listed
> 
> SSD pay part of the $30.00 / month (and $40.00 start-up) and gets part of
> 30 Megs of fast! storage space from a company called tabnet.
> http://www.tabnet.com/
> 
> Good
> -  FTP Access to the main site.  No need to have two sites going.
> -  E-mail and Majordomo.  We can get the mailing list started again!
>    and auto-foreward mail addresses like KevinH@urly-bird, or TimV@urly-bird
>    which would send the mail on to our normal addresses.
> -  A SysAdmin (Kevin) who is committed to supporting us.
> 
> Also SSD could start geting comercial sponcers from space related groups
> (Magazines and interest groups for example) I'm making some inquires.  We
> don't get a ton of traffic (thou that could improve if we could keep the
> site active and updated) but we should be able to defray some of these
> costs.
> 
> We also get to help Kevin in his new busness.  (And I get to start showing
> off my web skills on My resume!)
> 
> Bad
> On the other hand start up busnesses usually fail.  We could wind up
> looking for a new home.  (we definately would want to get a InterNIC Domain
> Registration name so people could link to us with a name we could transfer
> quickly to a new site.  But that would add another $100 start up cost.)
> And of course we are cheap sorts and don't want to pay.

URLY-bird.com is an InterNIC domain name, and if my business fails, I'd be glad to
donate the name to the group.  It'll be paid for two years.  (I will pay for this 
wether or not you guys chip in)  the question in my mind is wether to go for the 
server options, or just point urly-bird to my school account.

> 5)  AOL might host us

> Bad
> 
> If they don't want to  support us for free their rates are high.  For a basic (
> Domain) account.
> 
>     $  99 - Onetime Startup Fee (for current AOL members!)
>     $ 100 - Initial InterNIC Domain Registration (2 year registration)
>     $  99 - Per month
>     ____
>     $298 - Total to be launched

Ouch.  If we're going to pay that much, then let's just get our own server space and 
InterNIC Domain name.  forgot about urly-bird, let's just get a real site.

from Tabnet we could get the same thing for:

	$ 50.00 Tabnet's Domain name registration fee.
	$100.00 InterNIC Registration fee (2 years)
	$ 50.00 for 50 megs
	_______
	$200.00 To launch, and only $50.00 /mo.



> I'm also concerned over accepting Kevin's offer, and even more reluctant to

I understand these concerns all of you have expressed.  I just want to say that I 
won't be hurt if you guys decide to go with some other option.  please do not base
your decisions on our friendship.

> accept my friend in D.C's offer.  Eiather could run into problems and fold
> out from under us or just lose.  Kevin isn't likly to lose interest, and I
> doubt he'll just dump us without warning (I just got Dave's horror story),
> but he could run into problems.  If so we might be forced to pitch in some
> money for a while.  On the other hand we might attract enough sponsership

I suppose this could happen, if so, the overhead would amount to $30.00/mo.

> from space related groups to by the overhead.  (I talked to the guy at the
> Interstelar propulsion group and he said they have gotten far more interest
> and input then they expected. This suprised me since they seem like a dead
> site and even the admin addreses are dead, but if the can do it and get a
> bit of sponcership we should be able to get a bit.)
> 
> I guess my thought would be that a major sponcer like AOL (whos rich enough
> write us off as a novelty forever) could provide us with a stable high

Or until they see enough activity at the site that they think we can pay for it.
I see real potential "blackmail" problems.  ie. It would be such a hassel to look 
for a new site that we would be unwilling to move.  I would prefer to stay at 
Sunsite than go to AOL.

> quality site.  Which sounds ideal, if they are interested.  Kevin would be
> a good secound.  He's motivated and VERY unlikly to casually burn us, and
> moving to a comercial site could be self supporting and more stable.  But
> the cost could become a problem; and he could go broke or be overwelmed by
> his new busness.  Which brings us back to staying at Sunsite.  (I'ld reject
> the other two options as undesirable unless SunSite bails.)

As for time constraints, having multiple access codes to the site, would allow
us all to take over Sysadmin duties if needed.

Kevin

From popserver Thu Jul 11 07:06:16 GMT 1996
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	["127" "Wed" "10" "July" "1996" "22:35:39" "-0700" "Kevin Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "5" "Re: New? LIT site." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
CC: KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        lessa@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: New? LIT site.
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:35:39 -0700

Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
> 
> Whos Lessa@worldnet.att.net ?

a temporary asddress for Tim while he's at Rex's place.

From popserver Thu Jul 11 15:52:56 GMT 1996
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From: David Levine 
To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'" 
Cc: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" ,
        "rddesign@wolfenet.com" 
Cc: "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com" ,
        "DotarSojat@aol.com" ,
        "sl0c8@cc.usu.edu" ,
        "MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU" ,
        "101765.2200@CompuServe.COM" <101765.2200@CompuServe.COM>,
        "neill@foda.math.usu.edu" 
Cc: "Lessa@worldnet.att.net" 
Subject: RE: New? LIT site.
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:20:05 -0400

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Regarding AOL...

>Ouch.  If we're going to pay that much, then let's just get our own server
>space and 
>InterNIC Domain name.  forgot about urly-bird, let's just get a real site.

Well, of course, I agree here - I wouldn't suggest going to AOL unless we
got the
"free version."

>> I guess my thought would be that a major sponcer like AOL (whos rich
>enough
>> write us off as a novelty forever) could provide us with a stable high
>
>Or until they see enough activity at the site that they think we can pay
>for it.
>I see real potential "blackmail" problems.  ie. It would be such a hassel
>to look 
>for a new site that we would be unwilling to move.  I would prefer to stay
>at 
>Sunsite than go to AOL.

Okay, I suppose I hadn't thought of that... could they at some point ask us
to pay
if our traffic was high enough?  What kind of history do they have right now
with
their free accounts?

The other thing is that Ric said:
>My only problem with AOL is thier flakey billing policies and over
>pricing..........Would we have to put up with thier continual "down
loading"
>graphics..................I guess in short I don't trust AOL.....but that
is
>my problem..........

I think the thing here is that the site would not be "on" AOL (i.e. we
wouldn't
have to dial-in, get accounts, pay, etc) but rather AOL hosts the site on
their
web servers.  So if we get the space for free, and its accessable from the
web,
and they don't go back on the free thing, then its a good deal.  If we don't
get free space or its not accessable from the web, then its not.

Back to Kevin:
>As for time constraints, having multiple access codes to the site, would
>allow
>us all to take over Sysadmin duties if needed.

Also true.

-David


------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6F0A.291C3090--

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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com
Subject: Re: My (temporary) LIT Site...
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 16:03:49 +0200

> From pbakelaar@exit109.com Thu Jul 11 04:01:31 1996
> 
> Please visit my site @:
> http://www.exit109.com/~pbakelaar/lir
> 
You mean  http://www.exit109.com/~pbakelaar/lit  ?  ;-)

-- Zenon

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David Levine 
Cc: "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" ,
        "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        "KellySt@aol.com"		 ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl"		 ,
        "stevev@efn.org"		 ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu"		 ,
        "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl"		 
Subject: RE: New? LIT site.
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:09:25 -0500

At 5:24 PM 7/10/96, David Levine wrote:
>I fixed the TOC map for you to work properly with IIS now.  I have a
>conversion program
>that will let me convert it back to NCSA when we mirror it later.

Great!  I was worried I has messed up the pointers somehow.  I forgot that
you had to convert it.  (I was killing a lot of time trying to figure that
a couple of other pointer problems out.)

Hum, I noticed some of the TOCs work and some don't.  For example the the
Main Toc takes you to the Exploorer TOC.  But a selection in that just
bounces you back.

I guess this is pretty system specific.  So I'll manually check My link
files and you'll have to convert and test them on your system later.  I'll
concentrate on more general document things for a while.

This is rediculas!  So far I know of 4 map formats NCSA, Cern, your IIS
format, and AOL & GNN's .NVM format.  The later is identical to NCSA but it
has one extra header line!

>One comment, though.  The TOC graphic is 190k.  Perhaps I should change it
>to a JPEG
>and see if it's any smaller?

Sure go for it.  That should give a better image too.  The Map program I
was using only used Pict or gif, and I didn't know what this was being
triggered by so I left it.  Frankly the maps do take up a lot of space.
(Actually I was thinking of scaling down the size of the TOCs, but thats
another problem.)  If Jpeg works better I'll submit copies of both to you.

>>       Marine Development Project (If You still want to try it?)
>
>Yup.  Basically I'm going to start with the Europa Underwater Explorer,
>which comes up
>so often in sci.space.tech that it should be in a FAQ somewhere.
>
>>       Solar systen Development Project
>>           Solar system exploration, Mining, etc would fit in here.
>
>Also a sort of compliment-site to SSD, but for in-system craft (i.e. more
>realistic
>technology, more believable that it could happen soon)
>
>>Comments?  Shock?  Horror?  Disinterest?
>
>New organization seems good.
>
>David


Great!  I'll take a crack at it and load the new stuff in your site for
review.  Since I seem to be the only one whos hates the Lunar Institute of
Technology name I'll leave it on the master home page .

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Thu Jul 11 15:53:18 GMT 1996
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	["1270" "Thu" "11" "July" "1996" "10:17:14" "-0400" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "35" "RE: New? LIT site." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: David Levine 
To: "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" 
Cc: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        "KellySt@aol.com"
	 ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl"
	 ,
        "stevev@efn.org"
	 ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu"
	 ,
        "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl"
	 
Subject: RE: New? LIT site.
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:17:14 -0400

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.  Contact your
mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a version
that supports MIME.

------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6F12.243E55A0
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>Hum, I noticed some of the TOCs work and some don't.  For example the the
>Main Toc takes you to the Exploorer TOC.  But a selection in that just
>bounces you back.

Yeah, I only did the first one so far.  Sorry.

>Great!  I'll take a crack at it and load the new stuff in your site for
>review.  Since I seem to be the only one whos hates the Lunar Institute of
>Technology name I'll leave it on the master home page .

Heh.  .  Well, if you want, maybe we can take out the "Est. 2032"
stuff
and put ourselves more solidly in the present, designing a starship for
sixty-odd
years from now (rather than our current designing a starship for the
"present day"
in 2055 or whatever...).  We call ourselves "LIT" because we're staking a
claim... When
we DO return to the moon, the eastern edge of Copernicus is OURS to
establish
a school at....

-David


------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6F12.243E55A0--

From popserver Thu Jul 11 15:53:22 GMT 1996
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	["1732" "Thu" "11" "July" "1996" "16:17:05" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "49" "Re: New? LIT site." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com
Subject: Re: New? LIT site.
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 16:17:05 +0200

> From hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Thu Jul 11 04:50:08 1996
> 
> Zenon Kulpa wrote:
> 
> > Seems interesting to me. At least, this has a chance
> > to be a "professional" site with constant maintenance
> > and little or no problems with the provider...
> 
> Is that a yes, a no, or a maybe?
> 
A maybe, plus some thoughts on possible advantages...


> > > 2) Your monetary help.  Requested only.  no pressure.  no special recognition either
> > >    way.  Judging from the size of the mailing list, I would ask $10.00 from each of
> > >    you to help with start-up costs.
> > >
> > This may scare away some of us, especially these far away...
> 
> I must not have been very clear.  I would not ask for money again.  
> I'm only asking it of those now on the mail-list 
> (If you are reading this, then  I'm asking you) but new 
> members would not be asked.
> 
I meant, sending money from Poland to US to a private person
is really a pain in the neck...


> > > I hope to sell server space for
> > > $2.00/Megabyte/month and to sell ads.
> > >
> > Do you mean ads will be displayed at the LIT pages?
> 
> Ads _could_ be displayed, that is not mandatory.  
> it certainly requires group concensus before hand.  
> I mostly meant that URLY-BIRD.com wold be selling server space and ads.
> 
> > It has its advantages (e.g., possibility for sponsorships)
> > and disadvantages (e.g., labelling the site as "commercial").
> 
> www.urly-bird.com  _will_ be a commercial site.  
> SSD may join that site and display ads or not.
> 
OK, I only asked about ads on LIT pages -
if their dispaly there would be mandatory, or desirable.
I know now it will not be mandatory,
but will it be desirable (useful, better do it or else... ?).

-- Zenon

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Philip Bakelaar 
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu
Subject: Re: My (temporary) LIT Site...
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:15:10 -0500

At 10:00 PM 7/10/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote:
>OK.. first off, I am not implying that my page will be our
>permanent one. Just look at the subject title of this
>letter. The purpose is to gather information so that when
>our permanent site is made (once again!) we will have
>all this stuff.
>
>Please visit my site @:
>http://www.exit109.com/~pbakelaar/lir
>
>Right now it IS under construction, but the space programs
>ARE working, except for the Time Distance one. I could not
>figure out how to convert the BASIC formula into a Java
>one. If anyone has any ideas, EMail me!


Ah Phil.  When I tried to check that address all I get was A

File Not found

The requested URL /~pbakelaar/lir was not found on this server.


Message.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
Cc: Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@CompuServe.COM,
        kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,
        zkulpa@lksu.ippt.gov.pl
Subject: Re: New? LIT site.
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:22:04 -0500

At 9:41 PM 7/10/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote:
>Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>>
>
>> Seems interesting to me. At least, this has a chance
>> to be a "professional" site with constant maintenance
>> and little or no problems with the provider...
>
>Is that a yes, a no, or a maybe?


Sounds like a maybe to me.

>> > 2) Your monetary help.  Requested only.  no pressure.  no special
>>recognition either
>> >    way.  Judging from the size of the mailing list, I would ask $10.00
>>from each of
>> >    you to help with start-up costs.
>> >
>> This may scare away some of us, especially these far away...
>
>I must not have been very clear.  I would not ask for money again.  I'm
>only asking it
>of those now on the mail-list (If you are reading this, then  I'm asking
>you) but new
>members would not be asked.

Ah, Kev.  Zenon is in Poland.  You can probably hire a researcher in his
center for a year for $20.

;)


>>
>> > I hope to sell server space for
>> > $2.00/Megabyte/month and to sell ads.
>> >
>> Do you mean ads will be displayed at the LIT pages?
>
>Ads _could_ be displayed, that is not mandatory.  it certainly requires
>group concensus
>before hand.  I mostly meant that URLY-BIRD.com wold be selling server
>space and ads.
>
>> It has its advantages (e.g., possibility for sponsorships)
>> and disadvantages (e.g., labelling the site as "commercial").
>
>www.urly-bird.com  _will_ be a commercial site.  SSD may join that site
>and display ads
>or not.
>
>Kevin

Actually I like the idea of adds.  Besides the money aspect, it gives us a
more succesful and profesional image.  No one sponcers or advertises on
fools pages.  So if we can get a couple sponcership icons from credible
groups (aerospace or space related especially) it would give us more
credibility.  Not critical, but a plus.


Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Thu Jul 11 15:53:34 GMT 1996
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	["583" "Thu" "11" "July" "1996" "16:44:39" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "19" "RE: New? LIT site." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, lessa@worldnet.att.net
Subject: RE: New? LIT site.
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 16:44:39 +0200

> From David@InterWorld.com Thu Jul 11 16:17:27 1996
> 
> Heh.  .  Well, if you want, maybe we can take out the "Est. 2032"
> stuff
> and put ourselves more solidly in the present, designing a starship for
> sixty-odd
> years from now (rather than our current designing a starship for the
> "present day"
> in 2055 or whatever...).  We call ourselves "LIT" because we're staking a
> claim... When
> we DO return to the moon, the eastern edge of Copernicus is OURS to
> establish
> a school at....
> 
Yep! I am for it!

Long live Copernicus! (the crater, that is  ;-)

-- Zenon

From popserver Thu Jul 11 15:53:41 GMT 1996
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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, lessa@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: New? LIT site.
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 16:52:20 +0200

> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Thu Jul 11 16:25:28 1996
> 
> Ah, Kev.  Zenon is in Poland.  You can probably hire a researcher in his
> center for a year for $20.
> 
> ;)
> 
Not be too excited, Kevin...
Actually, I would ask for much more  ;-)))


> Actually I like the idea of adds.  Besides the money aspect, it gives us a
> more succesful and profesional image.  No one sponcers or advertises on
> fools pages.  So if we can get a couple sponcership icons from credible
> groups (aerospace or space related especially) it would give us more
> credibility.  Not critical, but a plus.
> 
Yes, I think it is possibly true - 
if the ads were from the credible groups.

-- Zenon

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David Levine 
Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'" ,
        "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" ,
        "rddesign@wolfenet.com" 
Subject: RE: New? LIT site.
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:54:22 -0500

At 9:20 AM 7/11/96, David Levine wrote:
>Regarding AOL...
>
>>Ouch.  If we're going to pay that much, then let's just get our own server
>>space and
>>InterNIC Domain name.  forgot about urly-bird, let's just get a real site.
>
>Well, of course, I agree here - I wouldn't suggest going to AOL unless we
>got the
>"free version."

Really.  If we were very comercial and hot I might suggest it, but
otherwise it would be off the wall.


>>> I guess my thought would be that a major sponcer like AOL (whos rich
>>enough
>>> write us off as a novelty forever) could provide us with a stable high
>>
>>Or until they see enough activity at the site that they think we can pay
>>for it.
>>I see real potential "blackmail" problems.  ie. It would be such a hassel
>>to look
>>for a new site that we would be unwilling to move.  I would prefer to stay
>>at
>>Sunsite than go to AOL.
>
>Okay, I suppose I hadn't thought of that... could they at some point ask us
>to pay
>if our traffic was high enough?  What kind of history do they have right now
>with
>their free accounts?

If we got that active I'ld be more worried about SunSite figuring we could
go forth and pay our own bills.  Also if we pay for our own domain name
(which is tranferable) we can jump to another site and have the name
redirected easily and no one out in the web space would even notice the
change.

Lets face it their lowest comercial accounts are rated at:

       Transfer allowance: 1,500MB per month
       This is equivalent to a 100KB file being uploaded or downloaded 500
times a day.

According to dave we get about a 1000 hits a month (is that right Dave?).
Unless each hit involved downloading most of our site we'ld be well within
the normal account limits.

Conversly if we did get that kind of trafic we would start to get
attractive to sponcers.

I don't know how generous they are with their sponcership.  It is sort of a
charity/PR thing for them.  On the other hand they were willing to donat a
bunch of workstations to one group and other goodies to others.  We are
just a bit of data in a corner of their server cluster.

>The other thing is that Ric said:
>>My only problem with AOL is thier flakey billing policies and over
>>pricing.  Would we have to put up with thier continual "downloading"
>>graphics.  I guess in short I don't trust AOL but that is my problem...
>
>I think the thing here is that the site would not be "on" AOL (i.e. we
>wouldn't
>have to dial-in, get accounts, pay, etc) but rather AOL hosts the site on
>their
>web servers.  So if we get the space for free, and its accessable from the
>web,
>and they don't go back on the free thing, then its a good deal.  If we don't
>get free space or its not accessable from the web, then its not.

Correct.  The service is not part of the AOL dial in service (thou AOL
members get a $100 of the start up costs).  It a part of a comercial web
service AOL owns.  When AOL decided to add WEB browsing abilities to their
dial-up service.  They found and bought the biggest succesful internet
service they could find and had them develop the service.  (These people
have money!)  I beleave this service is run out of that purched service.

>Back to Kevin:
>>As for time constraints, having multiple access codes to the site, would
>>allow
>>us all to take over Sysadmin duties if needed.
>
>Also true.
>
>-David

Also avalible on the AOL option.  Definatly a plus to consider for
rehosting.  But we need to make sure everyone who is allowed to update is
knowledgable enough to not crater partts of the site.  A few instructions
in back up should be enough.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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	["1222" "Thu" "11" "July" "1996" "10:04:29" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "53" "Re: My (temporary) LIT Site..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com
Subject: Re: My (temporary) LIT Site...
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:04:29 -0500

At 4:03 PM 7/11/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> From pbakelaar@exit109.com Thu Jul 11 04:01:31 1996
>>
>> Please visit my site @:
>> http://www.exit109.com/~pbakelaar/lir
>>
>You mean  http://www.exit109.com/~pbakelaar/lit  ?  ;-)
>
>-- Zenon


Oh, man I feel stupid for not seeing that.  I guess I should have gotten
more sleep.

Ben


       Name: Kelly ?
       EMail: KellySt@aol.com
       WWW: ???

       Name: ???????
       EMail: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
       WWW: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html

Kgstar is my office Email address and I'ld prefer it not be published on
the web.  (I guess I should work up a private web page.)

Just leave the first entry.


       Name: Kelly ?
       EMail: KellySt@aol.com
       WWW: ???


and deleat the secound.

Other then that thou thats a good format for a members listing.  When you
get everones info you should alphabatize the list thou.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David Levine 
Cc: "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" ,
        "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        "KellySt@aol.com"		 ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl"		 ,
        "stevev@efn.org"		 ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu"		 ,
        "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl"		 
Subject: RE: New? LIT site.
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:11:56 -0500

At 10:17 AM 7/11/96, David Levine wrote:
>>Hum, I noticed some of the TOCs work and some don't.  For example the the
>>Main Toc takes you to the Exploorer TOC.  But a selection in that just
>>bounces you back.
>
>Yeah, I only did the first one so far.  Sorry.

Hum.  Just to make it more confusing.  The unfixed TOC maps gave a
different error.  Obviously a deliberate attempt to confuse me.  :(

>>Great!  I'll take a crack at it and load the new stuff in your site for
>>review.  Since I seem to be the only one whos hates the Lunar Institute of
>>Technology name I'll leave it on the master home page .
>
>Heh.  .  Well, if you want, maybe we can take out the "Est. 2032"
>stuff
>and put ourselves more solidly in the present, designing a starship for
>sixty-odd
>years from now (rather than our current designing a starship for the
>"present day"
>in 2055 or whatever...).  We call ourselves "LIT" because we're staking a
>claim... When
>we DO return to the moon, the eastern edge of Copernicus is OURS to
>establish
>a school at....
>
>-David


  Ok, I'll write some intro text about that
into the home page.  If we do become very comercial.  You get to do the
legal reseach to by the relestate at Copernicus.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, lessa@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: New? LIT site.
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:16:37 -0500

At 4:52 PM 7/11/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Thu Jul 11 16:25:28 1996
>>
>> Ah, Kev.  Zenon is in Poland.  You can probably hire a researcher in his
>> center for a year for $20.
>>
>> ;)
>>
>Not be too excited, Kevin...
>Actually, I would ask for much more  ;-)))

Oh, a senior reseach person like yourself?  I think LIT would spring for at
least $45!

;)

>> Actually I like the idea of adds.  Besides the money aspect, it gives us a
>> more succesful and profesional image.  No one sponcers or advertises on
>> fools pages.  So if we can get a couple sponcership icons from credible
>> groups (aerospace or space related especially) it would give us more
>> credibility.  Not critical, but a plus.
>>
>Yes, I think it is possibly true -
>if the ads were from the credible groups.
>
>-- Zenon

We definatly would have to be a bit carefull about that and groups we post
links to.  No serious flakes like the Artemis society or something.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Philip Bakelaar 
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu
Subject: Re: My (temporary) LIT Site...
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:29:09 -0500

Name: Kelly ?
       EMail: KellySt@aol.com
       WWW: ???



Kelly Starks

I'm a computer systems analyst.  I was born in Kenosha Wisconson, which is
just over the state line from Chicago.  I graduated from a local collage
with a BS in Mechanical enginneering and computer science and about half a
physics degree.  I worked for 7 years in Houston Texas developing a good
chunk of the shuttle flight planing software.  Another 6 years in Reston
Virginia (a Washington Dc subburb) verifing other people didn't mess up
when they wrote software for the space station Freedom program.  Before
that folded I went downton and spent 2 years doing computer analysis and
support at NASA headquarters.  Then got dumped as they started their
lay-offs.  As this might suggest I'm very interested in space, and have the
technical knowledge to follow up my interests.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Philip Bakelaar 
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu
Subject: Re: My (temporary) LIT Site...
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:34:48 -0500


I like the format for the Space equations programs, but none worked for me.

I also liked the Web links page.  I alread have one worked out, but didn't
have all of Zenons links.  So I'll murge our two when I get a chance.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Thu Jul 11 15:54:07 GMT 1996
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	["1357" "Thu" "11" "July" "1996" "17:47:54" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "42" "Re: New? LIT site." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, lessa@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: New? LIT site.
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 17:47:54 +0200

> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Thu Jul 11 17:20:31 1996
> 
> At 4:52 PM 7/11/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
> >> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Thu Jul 11 16:25:28 1996
> >>
> >> Ah, Kev.  Zenon is in Poland.  You can probably hire a researcher in his
> >> center for a year for $20.
> >>
> >> ;)
> >>
> >Not be too excited, Kevin...
> >Actually, I would ask for much more  ;-)))
> 
> Oh, a senior reseach person like yourself?  
> I think LIT would spring for at least $45!
> 
> ;)
> 
Ehem, try again...
Actually I am making ten times this a month (really... ;-))


> >> Actually I like the idea of adds.  
> >> Besides the money aspect, it gives us a
> >> more succesful and profesional image.  No one sponcers or advertises on
> >> fools pages.  So if we can get a couple sponcership icons from credible
> >> groups (aerospace or space related especially) it would give us more
> >> credibility.  Not critical, but a plus.
> >>
> >Yes, I think it is possibly true -
> >if the ads were from the credible groups.
> 
> We definatly would have to be a bit carefull about that and groups we post
> links to.  No serious flakes like the Artemis society or something.
> 
Have you some more data/opinion on them?
I would appreciate more info. 
I have stumbled at their Web pages recently
and it looked quite interesting, though I have not 
studied them carefully.

-- Zenon

From popserver Thu Jul 11 16:04:17 GMT 1996
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	["701" "Thu" "11" "July" "1996" "17:57:07" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "15" "Re: My (temporary) LIT Site..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, lessa@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: My (temporary) LIT Site...
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 17:57:07 +0200

> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Thu Jul 11 17:38:02 1996
> 
> I like the format for the Space equations programs, but none worked for me.
> 
> I also liked the Web links page.  I alread have one worked out, but didn't
> have all of Zenons links.  So I'll murge our two when I get a chance.
> 
Note some anchors are in Polish - they usually point to sites
in Poland, but most of them have English versions of their pages too.
Note also repetitions of some links - they came from aliases
made to put the entry in several thematic categories to which it fits.
Note also that I have posted all these links in HTML through my LIT alias,
so you should receive it by e-mail too, and twice at that...

-- Zenon

From popserver Thu Jul 11 16:29:45 GMT 1996
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, lessa@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: New? LIT site.
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:22:11 -0500

At 5:47 PM 7/11/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Thu Jul 11 17:20:31 1996
>>
>> At 4:52 PM 7/11/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> >> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Thu Jul 11 16:25:28 1996
>> >>
>> >> Ah, Kev.  Zenon is in Poland.  You can probably hire a researcher in his
>> >> center for a year for $20.
>> >>
>> >> ;)
>> >>
>> >Not be too excited, Kevin...
>> >Actually, I would ask for much more  ;-)))
>>
>> Oh, a senior reseach person like yourself?
>> I think LIT would spring for at least $45!
>>
>> ;)
>>
>Ehem, try again...
>Actually I am making ten times this a month (really... ;-))

Really?  ;)

A crule streak wants me to tell you what I make at a job so boring I have
time to do all this web work.  (Hint: the soviets didn't call us decadent
capitalists for nothing!)  ;)   

With your credentials here, I could get realy filthy rich!  


>> >> Actually I like the idea of adds.
>> >> Besides the money aspect, it gives us a
>> >> more succesful and profesional image.  No one sponcers or advertises on
>> >> fools pages.  So if we can get a couple sponcership icons from credible
>> >> groups (aerospace or space related especially) it would give us more
>> >> credibility.  Not critical, but a plus.
>> >>
>> >Yes, I think it is possibly true -
>> >if the ads were from the credible groups.
>>
>> We definatly would have to be a bit carefull about that and groups we post
>> links to.  No serious flakes like the Artemis society or something.
>>
>Have you some more data/opinion on them?
>I would appreciate more info.
>I have stumbled at their Web pages recently
>and it looked quite interesting, though I have not
>studied them carefully.
>
>-- Zenon

Regretably quite a bit.  A friend from my Johnson space center days is a
longtime family friend of the founder Greg Bennit (?).  The place was
recomended to me and some others in a group by another NASA researcher from
Maryland.  Given that the founder is an old NASA hand and has published a
couple of articals on this concept (not in any technical periodical) I
thought it might be interesting, so I tried it.

Nasty.

The basic concept is not well worked out.  (the mission assumes shuttle
capacities well beyond anything it can do.  NASA would have to risk its
political neck to support it, and would look like idiots for their trouble.
He was assuming he could partially fund it by selling documentaries on the
project,but assumed he'ld make 10 times as much on them as Lucas did on the
starwars films.  etc)  The concept might be fixable, but the guy has gotten
a power thing going and takes questions as a personal attack.  When I
pointed out some of the problems and suggested some alternates he accused
me of just being a flake who droped in to start a flame on the web, and
"I'ld see how they handel people like me".  He bounced my off the mailing
list and set their server to reject my submissions.

A few other members corresponded with me and said I had some great ideas,
but I wasn't the first to get that kind of treatment.  One of them was the
aquantence from JSC.  She had been a close family friend of his for many
years, but got jumped nearly as bad as I was when she suggested as a chain
smoaker he might have to give it up if wants to do the flight.  Or he'ld
ruin the air system.  She says since hes started Artemis he's gotten very
weird and egotistical, and shes been trying to distence herself from him
and the project.

All In all I'm not puting them on the LIT web links page.  ;)

Pity thou.  I'ld like to see someone workout an idea like that.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Thu Jul 11 16:34:48 GMT 1996
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	["1150" "Thu" "11" "July" "1996" "11:27:17" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "31" "Re: My (temporary) LIT Site..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, lessa@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: My (temporary) LIT Site...
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:27:17 -0500

At 5:57 PM 7/11/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Thu Jul 11 17:38:02 1996
>>
>> I like the format for the Space equations programs, but none worked for me.
>>
>> I also liked the Web links page.  I alread have one worked out, but didn't
>> have all of Zenons links.  So I'll murge our two when I get a chance.
>>
>Note some anchors are in Polish - they usually point to sites
>in Poland, but most of them have English versions of their pages too.
>Note also repetitions of some links - they came from aliases
>made to put the entry in several thematic categories to which it fits.
>Note also that I have posted all these links in HTML through my LIT alias,
>so you should receive it by e-mail too, and twice at that...
>
>-- Zenon
 If anything fails during testing we'll come looking for you.  ;)


Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Thu Jul 11 18:06:33 GMT 1996
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	["883" "Thu" "11" "July" "1996" "19:59:22" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "27" "Artemis Project" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
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        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, lessa@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Artemis Project
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 19:59:22 +0200

> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Thu Jul 11 18:26:08 1996
> 
> [... on Artemis Project]
> 
> Nasty.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Pity thou.  I'ld like to see someone workout an idea like that.
> 
Yes, it really seems a pity.
Frankly, at first reading your remark on them, I was inclined
to think "ahh, just a NASA/government guy sneering 
at possibly more successfull competition from the private sector..." 
(sorry, Kelly, that may be some fallout from our former quarrels... ;-)).
However, as you described it, it looks sadly serious.

Generally, I would appreciate from you informed guys over the Big Puddle
some more such "inside information" stories about the places
pointed to by my space (and other) links (and other interesting places too).

And concerning "someone working out an idea like that" -
maybe, the Solar System Development Branch of LIT will do?

Still with some hope,

-- Zenon

From popserver Thu Jul 11 18:06:34 GMT 1996
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	["2017" "Thu" "11" "July" "1996" "19:59:20" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "66" "Decadent coke-drinkers" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, lessa@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Decadent coke-drinkers
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 19:59:20 +0200

> At 5:47 PM 7/11/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
> >> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Thu Jul 11 17:20:31 1996
> >>
> >> At 4:52 PM 7/11/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
> >> >> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Thu Jul 11 16:25:28 1996
> >> >>
> >> >> Ah, Kev.  Zenon is in Poland.  You can probably hire a researcher in his
> >> >> center for a year for $20.
> >> >>
> >> >> ;)
> >> >>
> >> >Not be too excited, Kevin...
> >> >Actually, I would ask for much more  ;-)))
> >>
> >> Oh, a senior reseach person like yourself?
> >> I think LIT would spring for at least $45!
> >>
> >> ;)
> >>
> >Ehem, try again...
> >Actually I am making ten times this a month (really... ;-))
> 
> Really?  ;)
> 
> A crule streak wants me to tell you what I make at a job so boring I have
> time to do all this web work.  (Hint: the soviets didn't call us decadent
> capitalists for nothing!)  ;) 
>
Yes, I should know, I was working for two years+ in the States.
And taking into account our former quarrels about one-way missions,
I am now doubly sure...  ;-)

> 
> 
Yep, that seems your last chance, you rotting coke-drinkers...  ;-)


> With your credentials here, I could get realy filthy rich!  
> 
That's not so easy as it seems (I tried ;-).

> 
>
Who, me? The candidate for a one-way mission??  ;-)



> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Thu Jul 11 18:29:53 1996
>
> >Note some anchors are in Polish - they usually point to sites
> >in Poland, but most of them have English versions of their pages too.
> >Note also repetitions of some links - they came from aliases
> >made to put the entry in several thematic categories to which it fits.
> >Note also that I have posted all these links in HTML through my LIT alias,
> >so you should receive it by e-mail too, and twice at that...
> >
> >-- Zenon
>  
> If anything fails during testing we'll come looking for you.  ;)
> 
> Kelly
> 
Would you have enough vigor, 
you deteriorated two-way-couch-potatoes?  ;-))

-- Zenon the Nasty though Otherwise Quite Amiable

From popserver Thu Jul 11 18:47:01 GMT 1996
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Mime-Version: 1.0
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, lessa@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: Artemis Project
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:35:57 -0500

At 7:59 PM 7/11/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Thu Jul 11 18:26:08 1996
>>
>> [... on Artemis Project]
>>
>> Nasty.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> Pity thou.  I'ld like to see someone workout an idea like that.
>>
>Yes, it really seems a pity.
>Frankly, at first reading your remark on them, I was inclined
>to think "ahh, just a NASA/government guy sneering
>at possibly more successfull competition from the private sector..."
>(sorry, Kelly, that may be some fallout from our former quarrels... ;-)).
>However, as you described it, it looks sadly serious.

Yeah I know it sound like sour grapes,but its more than that.  Hell I'ld
like private secor people to out do NASA!  I think NASA's been siting on
its reputation for over 20 years, and has unwittingly (I hope) convinced
people that space is imposible, impractical, and inaccessable for anyone
smaller them a multinational corporation.  Space has been the most stagnent
frountier in centuries, and it doesn't need to be.

>Generally, I would appreciate from you informed guys over the Big Puddle
>some more such "inside information" stories about the places
>pointed to by my space (and other) links (and other interesting places too).

Don't you know the old tradition of watching the tourists falling into the
potholes?  I mean what fun would it be if we warned all you internationals!
;)

>And concerning "someone working out an idea like that" -
>maybe, the Solar System Development Branch of LIT will do?

We can try.  Well ... I do have this idea for mining oil from near earth
objects.  Should be worth a couple hundred billion dollars each.  If
anyones interested?  ;)

>Still with some hope,
>
>-- Zenon

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, lessa@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: Decadent coke-drinkers
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:49:28 -0500

At 7:59 PM 7/11/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> At 5:47 PM 7/11/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> >> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Thu Jul 11 17:20:31 1996
>> >>
>> >> At 4:52 PM 7/11/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> >> >> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Thu Jul 11 16:25:28 1996
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Ah, Kev.  Zenon is in Poland.  You can probably hire a researcher
>>in his
>> >> >> center for a year for $20.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ;)
>> >> >>
>> >> >Not be too excited, Kevin...
>> >> >Actually, I would ask for much more  ;-)))
>> >>
>> >> Oh, a senior reseach person like yourself?
>> >> I think LIT would spring for at least $45!
>> >>
>> >> ;)
>> >>
>> >Ehem, try again...
>> >Actually I am making ten times this a month (really... ;-))
>>
>> Really?  ;)
>>
>> A crule streak wants me to tell you what I make at a job so boring I have
>> time to do all this web work.  (Hint: the soviets didn't call us decadent
>> capitalists for nothing!)  ;)
>>
>Yes, I should know, I was working for two years+ in the States.
>And taking into account our former quarrels about one-way missions,
>I am now doubly sure...  ;-)
>
>> 
>>
>Yep, that seems your last chance, you rotting coke-drinkers...  ;-)

Oh don't be pithy, or we'll buy your country and kick you out!  

>> With your credentials here, I could get realy filthy rich!
>>
>That's not so easy as it seems (I tried ;-).

Well we don't show everything to the tourists.  (Says the guy who got Laid
of fromNASA and baited out to Ft. Wayne Indiana.)

Seriously thou I ran into another Ex_polish Physisit named Ion   Who was selling cars outside of Washington.

>> 
>>
>Who, me? The candidate for a one-way mission??  ;-)

I supose their isn't a lot of jobs for latent Kamakazies.


>> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Thu Jul 11 18:29:53 1996
>>
>> >Note some anchors are in Polish - they usually point to sites
>> >in Poland, but most of them have English versions of their pages too.
>> >Note also repetitions of some links - they came from aliases
>> >made to put the entry in several thematic categories to which it fits.
>> >Note also that I have posted all these links in HTML through my LIT alias,
>> >so you should receive it by e-mail too, and twice at that...
>> >
>> >-- Zenon
>>
>> If anything fails during testing we'll come looking for you.  ;)
>>
>> Kelly
>>
>Would you have enough vigor,
>you deteriorated two-way-couch-potatoes?  ;-))
>
>-- Zenon the Nasty though Otherwise Quite Amiable


No but I can hire some muscular weird folks from your area.  (Did I mention
a grandfather of mine was a Royal Causac gard?  (I know I misspelled that.)
I hear they really don't like Poles.)

Or


In cyber space you can't run or hide.  


Kelly    Starks


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Thu Jul 11 19:47:37 GMT 1996
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	["2828" "Thu" "11" "July" "1996" "21:39:33" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "93" "Re: Decadent coke-drinkers" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, lessa@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: Decadent coke-drinkers
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 21:39:33 +0200

> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Thu Jul 11 20:52:40 1996
>
> >> A crule streak wants me to tell you what I make at a job so boring I have
> >> time to do all this web work.  (Hint: the soviets didn't call us decadent
> >> capitalists for nothing!)  ;)
> >>
> >Yes, I should know, I was working for two years+ in the States.
> >And taking into account our former quarrels about one-way missions,
> >I am now doubly sure...  ;-)
> >
> >> 
> >>
> >Yep, that seems your last chance, you rotting coke-drinkers...  ;-)
> 
> Oh don't be pithy, or we'll buy your country and kick you out! 
>
Heh heh. You possibly do not know, but when Misha the Big Bear 
growled at ours here anticommunist stirrings all those years,
the popular saying was that the best course for Poland
would be to declare war against the US, and surrender the next day...
But why kick us out? With all that credentials??  ;-)


>  dutch seem pretty hard up for real estate, and this doesn't have the wet
> basemaent problems!  Oh, TIM!!>
>
Chernobyl is VERY near, though!

 
> >> With your credentials here, I could get realy filthy rich!
> >>
> >That's not so easy as it seems (I tried ;-).
> 
> Well we don't show everything to the tourists.  (Says the guy who got Laid
> of fromNASA and baited out to Ft. Wayne Indiana.)
> 
> Seriously thou I ran into another Ex_polish Physisit named Ion  disbeleafg> 
>
Ion? Really? There is a Polish first name: Jan 
(pronounced  Yahn - or how you there would try to express
with that yours clumsy spelling anti-rules),
that is John in your parts. But Ion? Never heard that.


> Who was selling cars outside of Washington.
> 
So you see..


> >> 
> >>
> >Who, me? The candidate for a one-way mission??  ;-)
> 
> I supose their isn't a lot of jobs for latent Kamakazies.
> 
You bet? 
What about some Jihad or something?


> >Would you have enough vigor,
> >you deteriorated two-way-couch-potatoes?  ;-))
> >
> >-- Zenon the Nasty though Otherwise Quite Amiable
> 
> No but I can hire some muscular weird folks from your area.  
> (Did I mention a grandfather of mine was a Royal Causac gard?
>
Cossack Guard, I fancy (again, those weird "rules" of yours).

> (I know I misspelled that.)
>
What a modesty!
You tend to misspell at least half your words.
And who must tell you that - one of these bloody foreigners.   ;-))
I wonder why my eyes did not get crooked already on this list...


> I hear they really don't like Poles.)
> 
Ahh, we gave them quite a bashing some 300 years ago.
Possibly your grandfather remembers that?

> Or
> 
> In cyber space you can't run or hide.  
> 
> Kelly    Starks
> 
And on your urles too...

-- Zenon Who Has No Time for Anything Except Some Witty Chat

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, lessa@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: Decadent coke-drinkers
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:26:50 -0500

At 9:39 PM 7/11/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Thu Jul 11 20:52:40 1996
>>
>> >> A crule streak wants me to tell you what I make at a job so boring I have
>> >> time to do all this web work.  (Hint: the soviets didn't call us decadent
>> >> capitalists for nothing!)  ;)
>> >>
>> >Yes, I should know, I was working for two years+ in the States.
>> >And taking into account our former quarrels about one-way missions,
>> >I am now doubly sure...  ;-)
>> >
>> >> 
>> >>
>> >Yep, that seems your last chance, you rotting coke-drinkers...  ;-)
>>
>> Oh don't be pithy, or we'll buy your country and kick you out!
>>
>Heh heh. You possibly do not know, but when Misha the Big Bear
>growled at ours here anticommunist stirrings all those years,
>the popular saying was that the best course for Poland
>would be to declare war against the US, and surrender the next day...

Well if you got to be conqured by someone, we're a much better choice then
the Soviets.  They send in the KGB and try to convince you its fun to have
AK-47's pointed at you.  We send in Blue jeans and BayWatch reruns, and try
to convince you you want to live in california and hang out on the beach
where very HOT ladys want to date you.

You get lied to eiather way, but you'll really want to beleave us!


>But why kick us out? With all that credentials??  ;-)

Hey I'm trying to sell you country to the Dutch.  I can't do that if its
still occupied.



>> > dutch seem pretty hard up for real estate, and this doesn't have the wet
>> basemaent problems!  Oh, TIM!!>
>>
>Chernobyl is VERY near, though!

Please.  Without a very good giger counter you'ld never notice.  Beside
were talking about people so desperate they're stealing realestate from
clams and seaweed!  Ok, your countries a bit of a fixer-upper, but it has
much better drainage.

< --- and when their all out of the country I bribe the border gaurds and
relable all the signs and airline maps --->


>> >> With your credentials here, I could get realy filthy rich!
>> >>
>> >That's not so easy as it seems (I tried ;-).
>>
>> Well we don't show everything to the tourists.  (Says the guy who got Laid
>> of fromNASA and baited out to Ft. Wayne Indiana.)
>>
>> Seriously thou I ran into another Ex_polish Physisit named Ion > disbeleafg>
>>
>Ion? Really? There is a Polish first name: Jan
>(pronounced  Yahn - or how you there would try to express
>with that yours clumsy spelling anti-rules),
>that is John in your parts. But Ion? Never heard that.

Was a first for me too.  I can see why he had to take physics classes thou.

< -- Sign the land deeds over to the Dutch and reticket the polish-??ians
airline tickets to send them to California-->

>> Who was selling cars outside of Washington.
>>
>So you see..
>
>
>> >> 
>> >>
>> >Who, me? The candidate for a one-way mission??  ;-)
>>
>> I supose their isn't a lot of jobs for latent Kamakazies.
>>
>You bet?
>What about some Jihad or something?

Thats a possibility.  Are you willing to travel? 

>> >Would you have enough vigor,
>> >you deteriorated two-way-couch-potatoes?  ;-))
>> >
>> >-- Zenon the Nasty though Otherwise Quite Amiable
>>
>> No but I can hire some muscular weird folks from your area.
>> (Did I mention a grandfather of mine was a Royal Causac gard?
>>
>Cossack Guard, I fancy (again, those weird "rules" of yours).
>
>> (I know I misspelled that.)
>>
>What a modesty!
>You tend to misspell at least half your words.

Well, yeah that is a problem.

>And who must tell you that - one of these bloody foreigners.   ;-))

??  Ah, I'm testing your linquistic skills.  The fee for this service is....

>I wonder why my eyes did not get crooked already on this list...

Well if I can't impress you with my ideas I'll keep you so confused you
don't know whats happening.

>> I hear they really don't like Poles.)
>>
>Ahh, we gave them quite a bashing some 300 years ago.

Well you know how some people hold grudges.


>Possibly your grandfather remembers that?

No his memory is a little soft past a century or two, but he does remember
he has a grudge to carry.

My bloodlines are Irish, Russian, German and Cossack.  So I have an
instictive  desire to drink, blow up British, and concur East
euro-countries.

>> Or
>>
>> In cyber space you can't run or hide.  
>>
>> Kelly    Starks
>>
>And on your urles too...
>
>-- Zenon Who Has No Time for Anything Except Some Witty Chat


Kelly <-- supply them all with sutan lotian and you can concur the world> Starks


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Thu Jul 11 23:00:33 GMT 1996
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	["554" "Thu" "11" "July" "1996" "18:47:25" "-0400" "Philip Bakelaar" "pbakelaar@exit109.com" nil "14" "Re: My (temporary) LIT Site..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu
Subject: Re: My (temporary) LIT Site...
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:47:25 -0400

At 10:34 AM 7/11/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>
>I like the format for the Space equations programs, but none worked for me.

Do you have a JavaScript capable browser? Namely, Netscape? That's pretty
much the only browser that will work for those programs. :( Sorry, I don't
have access to CGI.. my web server does not allow it. Security issues.

>I also liked the Web links page.  I alread have one worked out, but didn't
>have all of Zenons links.  So I'll murge our two when I get a chance.

That's good. Let me know when you do.

Ben

From popserver Fri Jul 12 06:24:08 GMT 1996
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	["956" "Thu" "11" "July" "1996" "20:20:19" "-0700" "Kevin Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "28" "Re: New? LIT site." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
To: Zenon Kulpa 
CC: KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, lessa@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: New? LIT site.
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 20:20:19 -0700

Zenon Kulpa wrote:
> 
> > From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Thu Jul 11 16:25:28 1996
> >
> > Ah, Kev.  Zenon is in Poland.  You can probably hire a researcher in his
> > center for a year for $20. ;)
> >
> Not be too excited, Kevin...
> Actually, I would ask for much more  ;-)))
> 

If all Zenon can afford is 20 zlotys,  Then that's fine.  The money is not the main 
issue here.  I fully expect LIT to pull in it's fair share of traffic.

> Kelly writes:
> > Actually I like the idea of adds.  Besides the money aspect, it gives us a
> > more succesful and profesional image.  No one sponcers or advertises on
> > fools pages.  So if we can get a couple sponcership icons from credible
> > groups (aerospace or space related especially) it would give us more
> > credibility.  Not critical, but a plus.
> >
> Yes, I think it is possibly true -
> if the ads were from the credible groups.
> 
> -- Zenon

Credible or not, as long as the check is good.  :)
Kevin

From popserver Fri Jul 12 06:24:18 GMT 1996
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From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@EFN.ORG,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
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        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu,
        "pbakelaar"@exit109.com
Subject: Bad E-mail  ALERT!
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 20:52:50 -0700

Stephen Landry  wrote:
> 
> no more messages sent here ok,,,tell allthe other list members

Okay, will do. sorry about that.

Hey guys, check your cc lists, and your address books.
It looks like weve been mail bombing someone who is not interested.

please remove MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU from this list.

Kevin

From popserver Fri Jul 12 06:24:21 GMT 1996
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	nil)
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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39),
        zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, lessa@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: My (temporary) LIT Site...
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:10:05 -0400

Here are several notes about my temp. LIT site:

- The address is: http://www.exit109.com/~pbakelaar/lit
  (sorry guys... it was past my bedtime when I wrote the
   other letter) :P

- To use any of the Space Programs, you pretty much
  have to have Netscape. Any browser that supports
  JavaScript will work, but other than Netscape, I
  do not know any. Soon will be a compilation of
  all the Basic and C programs, as well as a few
  .EXEs and other stuff like that.

- I am still looking for Member Information (if any of
  you guys actually want the info there).

- I am working on a Spanish translation, and when the
  permanent site is done, if everybody agrees a
  Spanish translation is a good idea, I will do that.
  (BTW, if space is an issue, the Spanish mirror
   could be on my webserver)

  Also, I know someone who *might* do a German 
  translation, if this is desirable.

- I am working on a Universe FAQ, which will hopefully
  one day evolve into a sort of online textbook. Anyway, 
  check it out under LIT Projects. 

  If anyone has any other ideas, like lists of certain 
  links (I know one of you is still waiting for Maser
  links, they will be under the LIT Projects once I 
  get around to it) let me know and I can probably 
  get right on it.

BTW, I have a question. Kevin, you say that the fee
will be one-time. But, InterNIC charges $50 a year
for maintaining a domain name. Maybe I misunderstood
you. It will have to be a yearly fee, won't it? 

Just wondering.

From popserver Fri Jul 12 06:24:24 GMT 1996
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	["245" "Thu" "11" "July" "1996" "22:12:50" "-0400" "Philip Bakelaar" "pbakelaar@exit109.com" nil "7" "Re: My (temporary) LIT Site..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39),
        zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, lessa@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: My (temporary) LIT Site...
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:12:50 -0400

I could use any information or links you have to information
pertinent to the Universe FAQ. I could use any suggestions
about topics to add under it. And I could use links to
pictures of the planets, solar system, galaxies, you know.

Thanx
Ben

From popserver Fri Jul 12 06:24:42 GMT 1996
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	["1598" "Thu" "11" "July" "1996" "21:47:19" "-0700" "Kevin Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "41" "Re: My (temporary) LIT Site..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
To: Philip Bakelaar 
CC: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu,
        lessa@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: My (temporary) LIT Site...
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 21:47:19 -0700

Philip Bakelaar wrote:
> 

> - To use any of the Space Programs, you pretty much
>   have to have Netscape. Any browser that supports
>   JavaScript will work, but other than Netscape, I
>   do not know any. Soon will be a compilation of
>   all the Basic and C programs, as well as a few
>   .EXEs and other stuff like that.

this is good, not everyone has Netscape (yet)

> - I am working on a Spanish translation, and when the
>   permanent site is done, if everybody agrees a
>   Spanish translation is a good idea, I will do that.
>   (BTW, if space is an issue, the Spanish mirror
>    could be on my webserver)

If you want to do the work of a spanish mirror, that's fine by me(frankly I think 
everyone in the world should just learn english and be done with it)  ;)

as for space, most of a site's space is in the graphics.  I don't think a duplicate
html document or ten will be a problem (some of the TOC will have to change of course)
hmm. maybe the foreign language sites should be mirrors at some other place.


> BTW, I have a question. Kevin, you say that the fee
> will be one-time. But, InterNIC charges $50 a year
> for maintaining a domain name. Maybe I misunderstood
> you. It will have to be a yearly fee, won't it?

Depends on what you are talking about.  If you are talking about LIT getting it's own
domain name, then yes the InterNIC fee would be yearly.  If you are talking about the 
URLy-Bird.com name, then no, I would not ask LIT to pay my domain name fees.  Besides, 
I'll be paid up for two years anyway, so it's a moot point for now.

Kevin


> 
> Just wondering.

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	["1142" "Fri" "12" "July" "1996" "08:08:22" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "35" "Re: My (temporary) LIT Site..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Philip Bakelaar 
Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39), KellySt@aol.com,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,
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        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu
Subject: Re: My (temporary) LIT Site...
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:08:22 -0500

At 6:47 PM 7/11/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote:
>At 10:34 AM 7/11/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>>
>>I like the format for the Space equations programs, but none worked for me.
>
>Do you have a JavaScript capable browser? Namely, Netscape? That's pretty
>much the only browser that will work for those programs. :( Sorry, I don't
>have access to CGI.. my web server does not allow it. Security issues.

Thats probably the problem then.  But most people probably don't have JAava
yet.  I wounder  if we should stick to cgi awhile.  

>>I also liked the Web links page.  I alread have one worked out, but didn't
>>have all of Zenons links.  So I'll murge our two when I get a chance.
>
>That's good. Let me know when you do.
>
>Ben


Sure thing.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
Cc: Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, lessa@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: New? LIT site.
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:12:42 -0500

At 8:20 PM 7/11/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote:
>Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>>
>> > From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Thu Jul 11 16:25:28 1996
>> >
>> > Ah, Kev.  Zenon is in Poland.  You can probably hire a researcher in his
>> > center for a year for $20. ;)
>> >
>> Not be too excited, Kevin...
>> Actually, I would ask for much more  ;-)))
>>
>
>If all Zenon can afford is 20 zlotys,  Then that's fine.  The money is not
>the main
>issue here.  I fully expect LIT to pull in it's fair share of traffic.

I certainly seems to get a good amount of traffic compared to other spasce
interest boards.  The Millenial socyity board is ranked amoung the top %5
and its gotten 11,000 hits this year.  We've been getting about a thousand
a month and out sites practically dead.

>> Kelly writes:
>> > Actually I like the idea of adds.  Besides the money aspect, it gives us a
>> > more succesful and profesional image.  No one sponcers or advertises on
>> > fools pages.  So if we can get a couple sponcership icons from credible
>> > groups (aerospace or space related especially) it would give us more
>> > credibility.  Not critical, but a plus.
>> >
>> Yes, I think it is possibly true -
>> if the ads were from the credible groups.
>>
>> -- Zenon
>
>Credible or not, as long as the check is good.  :)
>Kevin

I don't know.  If their flaky or weird we might want to think about it.
Unless its a big check.  ;)

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@EFN.ORG,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
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        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu,
        "pbakelaar"@exit109.com
Subject: Re: Bad E-mail  ALERT!
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:14:46 -0500

At 8:52 PM 7/11/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote:
>Stephen Landry  wrote:
>>
>> no more messages sent here ok,,,tell allthe other list members
>
>Okay, will do. sorry about that.
>
>Hey guys, check your cc lists, and your address books.
>It looks like weve been mail bombing someone who is not interested.
>
>please remove MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU from this list.
>
>Kevin

Wounder how he got Mike Lineskis account?

Hope I didn't add that to the web list?

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Philip Bakelaar 
Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39),
        zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa), KellySt@aol.com,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu,
        lessa@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: My (temporary) LIT Site...
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:16:20 -0500

At 10:10 PM 7/11/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote:
>Here are several notes about my temp. LIT site:
>
>- The address is: http://www.exit109.com/~pbakelaar/lit
>  (sorry guys... it was past my bedtime when I wrote the
>   other letter) :P
>
>- To use any of the Space Programs, you pretty much
>  have to have Netscape. Any browser that supports
>  JavaScript will work, but other than Netscape, I
>  do not know any. Soon will be a compilation of
>  all the Basic and C programs, as well as a few
>  .EXEs and other stuff like that.
>
>- I am still looking for Member Information (if any of
>  you guys actually want the info there).
>
>- I am working on a Spanish translation, and when the
>  permanent site is done, if everybody agrees a
>  Spanish translation is a good idea, I will do that.
>  (BTW, if space is an issue, the Spanish mirror
>   could be on my webserver)
>
>  Also, I know someone who *might* do a German
>  translation, if this is desirable.
>
>- I am working on a Universe FAQ, which will hopefully
>  one day evolve into a sort of online textbook. Anyway,
>  check it out under LIT Projects.
>
>  If anyone has any other ideas, like lists of certain
>  links (I know one of you is still waiting for Maser
>  links, they will be under the LIT Projects once I
>  get around to it) let me know and I can probably
>  get right on it.
>
>BTW, I have a question. Kevin, you say that the fee
>will be one-time. But, InterNIC charges $50 a year
>for maintaining a domain name. Maybe I misunderstood
>you. It will have to be a yearly fee, won't it?
>
>Just wondering.


My you've been busy!  Go for it.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, pbakelaar@exit109.com
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 19:09:15 GMT

Hi Ben,

I saw your spacepro.htm page, maybe you should add the formula's with the
fill-out form, it makes it easier for people to see what is actually calculated.

I wonder if translations in other languages are useful at all, if someone
who only speaks Spanish would comment, I (and probably most other members)
would not be able to respond. Besides that, I would like to be able to read
"my own" writings. Also I belief that it is long time for people to learn a
common language. I don't really mind if that language is English, Polish,
French or whatever, it just happens to be that English is the most common
language.

If you are creating parts in different languages, that multiple groups will
be created, that have few contacts with eachother.

Tim

From popserver Fri Jul 12 19:16:34 GMT 1996
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	["227" "Fri" "12" "July" "1996" "19:12:18" "GMT" "Rex Lessa Timothy" "Lessa@worldnet.att.net" nil "10" "" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: Rex & Timothy 
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, pbakelaar@exit109.com
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 19:12:18 GMT

Hi All,

Please do not sent letters to Lessa@worldnet.att.net
If you by accident reply to them, that's no big deal, but don't add it to
your mailing list.
I get all mailings that you sent to Rex (DotarSojat).

Thanks,

Timothy

From popserver Fri Jul 12 19:26:40 GMT 1996
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	["534" "Fri" "12" "July" "1996" "19:20:07" "GMT" "Rex Lessa Timothy" "Lessa@worldnet.att.net" "<199607121920.TAA20922@mailhost.worldnet.att.net>" "11" "" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: Rex & Timothy 
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, pbakelaar@exit109.com
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 19:20:07 GMT

I think we should use Java instead of SGI-scripts. They have the advantage
that people from all platforms (DOS, Mac, Unix) can program them, so we have
more independance.
Besides that, Java(script) is clearly something that will overrule SGI in
the futere (with a few exceptions of course).
I'm quite sure that in half a year, almost everyone has a Java-compatible
browser, those that haven't are probably not interested enough (You can get
it for free for almost all platforms, and installation is almost without
problems).

Timothy

From popserver Fri Jul 12 19:36:54 GMT 1996
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	["511" "Fri" "12" "July" "1996" "15:31:30" "-0400" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "14" "RE: languages" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: David Levine 
To: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com"
	 ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" 
To: "rddesign@wolfenet.com" ,
        "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com" ,
        "DotarSojat@aol.com" ,
        "neill@foda.math.usu.edu" ,
        "101765.2200@compuserve.com" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" 
To: "pbakelaar@exit109.com" ,
        "'Rex & Timothy'"
	 
Subject: RE: languages
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 15:31:30 -0400

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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Plus multiple languages means each page will have to modified multiple
times (one for each language)
>

------ =_NextPart_000_01BB7007.33A601A0--

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	["1805" "Fri" "12" "July" "1996" "12:35:50" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "36" "" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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In-Reply-To: <199607121920.TAA20922@mailhost.worldnet.att.net>
References: <199607121920.TAA20922@mailhost.worldnet.att.net>
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: Rex & Timothy 
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, pbakelaar@exit109.com
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 12:35:50 -0700

Rex Lessa Timothy writes:
 > I think we should use Java instead of SGI-scripts. They have the advantage
 > that people from all platforms (DOS, Mac, Unix) can program them, so we have
 > more independance.
 > Besides that, Java(script) is clearly something that will overrule SGI in
 > the futere (with a few exceptions of course).
 > I'm quite sure that in half a year, almost everyone has a Java-compatible
 > browser, those that haven't are probably not interested enough (You can get
 > it for free for almost all platforms, and installation is almost without
 > problems).
 > 
 > Timothy

Do you mean CGI (Common Gateway Interface) instead of SGI (Silicon
Graphics, Incorporated)?

Having worked with CGI a fair amount and knowing more or less what Java
is, I can't agree at all with your proposition.  While you can do a lot
of neat things with Java applets, they are by no means a complete
replacement for CGI -- most importantly, because Java applets run on
your computer rather than on the web server, there are things that would
be easy to do with CGI that would be almost impossible to do with Java.
Certainly, the converse is also true; you can do things in Java that are
almost impossible to do with CGI.

Probably the most useful thing you can do with CGI is search databases
on a server or do other computation- or data-intensive tasks that would
be impractical on a typical personal computer.  I can't see any
efficient way to do that using Java applets.  You won't see Alta Vista
(http://www.altavista.digital.com/) implemented as a Java applet any
time soon.

I also happen to believe that the Web is not just for people with
Netscape or other graphical browsers.  I can't tell you how disgusted I
am dealing with "Netscape-enhanced" pages or pages that work only in
graphical browsers.

From popserver Fri Jul 12 19:47:01 GMT 1996
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	["2498" "Fri" "12" "July" "1996" "15:44:31" "-0400" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "48" "RE: " "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: David Levine 
To: Rex & Timothy ,
        "'Steve VanDevender'"
	 
Cc: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com"
	 ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu"
	 ,
        "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl"
	 ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu"
	 ,
        "rddesign@wolfenet.com"
	 
Cc: "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com" ,
        "DotarSojat@aol.com" ,
        "neill@foda.math.usu.edu" ,
        "101765.2200@compuserve.com" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" ,
        "pbakelaar@exit109.com" 
Subject: RE: 
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 15:44:31 -0400

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>Having worked with CGI a fair amount and knowing more or less what Java
>is, I can't agree at all with your proposition.  While you can do a lot
>of neat things with Java applets, they are by no means a complete
>replacement for CGI -- most importantly, because Java applets run on
>your computer rather than on the web server, there are things that would
>be easy to do with CGI that would be almost impossible to do with Java.
>Certainly, the converse is also true; you can do things in Java that are
>almost impossible to do with CGI.
>
>Probably the most useful thing you can do with CGI is search databases
>on a server or do other computation- or data-intensive tasks that would
>be impractical on a typical personal computer.  I can't see any
>efficient way to do that using Java applets.  You won't see Alta Vista
>(http://www.altavista.digital.com/) implemented as a Java applet any
>time soon.

Sun is developing a new type of java program... in addition to applications
and applets, we will soon have servlets.  Servlets allow you to use java
to extend the functionality the same way a CGI does... the difference
being that CGI scripts are new processes, while java servlets (like ISAPI
or NSAPI dll's) are merely new threads - hence providing a substantial
savings in memory and an AMAZING savings in speed.  Take it from someone
in the business... computationally intensive server-side programs will
soon all be written as a library to a server using a special API, whether as
C/C++ code (the majority right now) or as a java servlet (coming soon to
a theater near you).  Our company switched (first to NSAPI, then to ISAPI)
from CGI over a year ago, and the savings in every facet of performance
has been truly unbelievable.  Our company wouldn't exist today if we were
still using CGI... we just wouldn't be competitive.

I __DO__ however, agree with Steve that not everyone will have a
Java or Javascript capable browser, and it will be much smarter to
write any computations as server-side (whether using APIs or CGI)
as it will be compatible with EVERYONE, even Lynx.




------ =_NextPart_000_01BB7009.05560280--

From popserver Fri Jul 12 22:19:12 GMT 1996
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	["1051" "Fri" "12" "July" "1996" "18:14:44" "-0400" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "26" "RE: Foreign language mirrors" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: David Levine 
To: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com"
	 ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" 
To: "'Philip Bakelaar'" 
Subject: RE: Foreign language mirrors
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 18:14:44 -0400

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>As for multiple documents, David, I was thinking that
>each Foregin language mirror would be hosted on a
>different web site. And any image links could be the
>same no matter what language, you see what Im saying?
>The images and English versions will be on the LIT
>main server, and if there are foreign mirrors, the 
>text will be on different servers, but the pictures
>won't be a space problem.

Obviously.  My problem is that when I make a change to the
English page, if we want the other language pages to be
up-to-date, someone will have to make changes to them for
every little change I make.  It could get cumbersome after
a while.


------ =_NextPart_000_01BB701E.027CBE40--

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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: David Levine , "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" 
Subject: Re: Foreign language mirrors
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 18:12:09 -0400

OK guys... here's the deal. I'm just doing this umm..
Spanish mirror mostly for practice (I do enjoy
learning) and so its no big deal if you guys dont
want foreign language mirrors. The reason I suggested
it is that ya know, all the big pages like Netscape
and companies have all translations. I just thought 
it would be a good idea.

As for multiple documents, David, I was thinking that
each Foregin language mirror would be hosted on a
different web site. And any image links could be the
same no matter what language, you see what Im saying?
The images and English versions will be on the LIT
main server, and if there are foreign mirrors, the 
text will be on different servers, but the pictures
won't be a space problem.

I guess some of you don't see any reason to have any
foreign language mirrors? I, personally, could care 
less.. as I said, I'm doing the Spanish translation
for practice. But, say I got people interested in
translating and hosting the HTML in their language?
Wouldn't that be an added benefit? Maybe it would 
like only reach one person, but hey, I think one
person is plenty, considering it isn't costing
the members any work or money?

Just my thoughts... :)

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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu,
        lessa@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: My (temporary) LIT Site...
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 18:07:30 -0400

At 09:47 PM 7/11/96 -0700, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote:
>> BTW, I have a question. Kevin, you say that the fee
>> will be one-time. But, InterNIC charges $50 a year
>> for maintaining a domain name. Maybe I misunderstood
>> you. It will have to be a yearly fee, won't it?
>
>Depends on what you are talking about.  If you are talking about LIT
getting it's own
>domain name, then yes the InterNIC fee would be yearly.  If you are talking
about the 
>URLy-Bird.com name, then no, I would not ask LIT to pay my domain name
fees.  Besides, 
>I'll be paid up for two years anyway, so it's a moot point for now.
>
>Kevin

oh ok... I mustv'e missed the talk about URLy-Bird.com.. btw, what the heck
is that?
:)

Ben

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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39), KellySt@aol.com,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
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        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu
Subject: Re: Space programs...
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 18:17:20 -0400

OK.. right now the programs are in JavaSCRIPT, not Java.
I don't plan on making them applets, because there is
really no reason to. I believe that Java is the future,
but I also know what its like to have a browser like
Lynx trying to view any web page (all of em are netscape
enhanced now!) so...

I don't care if we have CGI scripts, but for one thing,
I can't program them, unless someone has some web
space where I can test out CGI stuff. My web server
does not allow CGI scripts (meaning, I can't access
them.. error when I try) so... anyway, I would love
to do the CGI scripts, and yea I know we already have
'em, but if we make new programs, I'd be willing to
do them, as long as I have somewhere to test out the
CGI scripts so I can learn. Actually, Id like to
learn CGI anyway. Anybody?

(BTW, you know I'm just using you guys for web 
 space, right? Oh, did I forget to tell you?!?) 

;P

Hehe..
    

From popserver Fri Jul 12 22:24:22 GMT 1996
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	["1278" "Fri" "12" "July" "1996" "18:19:59" "-0400" "Philip Bakelaar" "pbakelaar@exit109.com" nil "31" "Re: " "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: Rex & Timothy , KellySt@aol.com,
        kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
Subject: Re: 
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 18:19:59 -0400

At 07:09 PM 7/12/96 GMT, Rex & Timothy wrote:
>Hi Ben,
>
>I saw your spacepro.htm page, maybe you should add the formula's with the
>fill-out form, it makes it easier for people to see what is actually
calculated.

Sure. I was actually planning on doing that tonite or tomorrow anyway!

>I wonder if translations in other languages are useful at all, if someone
>who only speaks Spanish would comment, I (and probably most other members)
>would not be able to respond. Besides that, I would like to be able to read
>"my own" writings. Also I belief that it is long time for people to learn a
>common language. I don't really mind if that language is English, Polish,
>French or whatever, it just happens to be that English is the most common
>language.

Refer to my foreign languages letter.

>If you are creating parts in different languages, that multiple groups will
>be created, that have few contacts with eachother.

Possibly...

But I really don't think that would happen. It would just allow foreign
speaking people to actually read our site, and maybe we would attract
some real genius from another country! Haven't you guys ever read.. um..
oh man, I can't remember the name! It might be "Eon", but I don't think
that's the book I'm talking about anyway. oh well

Ben

From popserver Fri Jul 12 22:34:31 GMT 1996
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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: David Levine , "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" 
Subject: RE: Foreign language mirrors
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 18:22:19 -0400

At 06:14 PM 7/12/96 -0400, David Levine wrote:
>Obviously.  My problem is that when I make a change to the
>English page, if we want the other language pages to be
>up-to-date, someone will have to make changes to them for
>every little change I make.  It could get cumbersome after
>a while.

Jeez, David! That was a quick reply. I think thats a record!
2 minutes! ;)

Well, in that area, you are correct. Well, I say any foreign
language mirror is better than none, don't you think?

Just a thought..
Ben

From popserver Fri Jul 12 23:04:48 GMT 1996
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From: David Levine 
To: Rex & Timothy ,
        "KellySt@aol.com"
	 ,
        "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com"
	 ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" 
To: "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" ,
        "rddesign@wolfenet.com" ,
        "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com" ,
        "DotarSojat@aol.com" ,
        "neill@foda.math.usu.edu" ,
        "101765.2200@compuserve.com" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>
To: "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl"
	 ,
        "'Philip Bakelaar'"
	 
Subject: RE: 
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 19:01:25 -0400

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>But I really don't think that would happen. It would just allow foreign
>speaking people to actually read our site, and maybe we would attract
>some real genius from another country!


Like Zenon?  :-)



------ =_NextPart_000_01BB7024.8700C9D0--

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	["2285" "Fri" "12" "July" "1996" "19:01:47" "-0400" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "58" "RE: Space programs..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: David Levine 
To: "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" ,
        "'Philip Bakelaar'"
	 
Cc: "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" ,
        "KellySt@aol.com"
	 ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu"
	 ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" 
Cc: "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" ,
        "rddesign@wolfenet.com"
	 ,
        "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com"
	 ,
        "DotarSojat@aol.com"
	 ,
        "sl0c8@cc.usu.edu" ,
        "MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU" 
Cc: "101765.2200@compuserve.com" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>,
        "neill@foda.math.usu.edu" 
Subject: RE: Space programs...
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 19:01:47 -0400

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.  Contact your
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On most systems a CGI script is a script like any other.  It gets
its input from STDIN and its output from STDOUT.  If you can write
a C or perl program, you've written a CGI application.  Sure, the
format the data comes in on STDIN can be a little odd, but there's
plenty of documentation on it.  If I had an hour of free time, I'd go
through the old CGI stuff I had for the site and fix them....


>----------
>From: 	Philip Bakelaar[SMTP:pbakelaar@exit109.com]
>Sent: 	Friday, July 12, 1996 6:17 PM
>To: 	kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
>Cc: 	David Levine; kgstar@most.fw.hac.com; KellySt@aol.com;
>hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu; T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl;
>stevev@efn.org; jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu; zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl;
>rddesign@wolfenet.com; lparker@destin.gulfnet.com; DotarSojat@aol.com;
>sl0c8@cc.usu.edu; MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU;
>101765.2200@compuserve.com; neill@foda.math.usu.edu
>Subject: 	Re: Space programs...
>
>OK.. right now the programs are in JavaSCRIPT, not Java.
>I don't plan on making them applets, because there is
>really no reason to. I believe that Java is the future,
>but I also know what its like to have a browser like
>Lynx trying to view any web page (all of em are netscape
>enhanced now!) so...
>
>I don't care if we have CGI scripts, but for one thing,
>I can't program them, unless someone has some web
>space where I can test out CGI stuff. My web server
>does not allow CGI scripts (meaning, I can't access
>them.. error when I try) so... anyway, I would love
>to do the CGI scripts, and yea I know we already have
>'em, but if we make new programs, I'd be willing to
>do them, as long as I have somewhere to test out the
>CGI scripts so I can learn. Actually, Id like to
>learn CGI anyway. Anybody?
>
>(BTW, you know I'm just using you guys for web 
> space, right? Oh, did I forget to tell you?!?) 
>
>;P
>
>Hehe..
>    
>
>

------ =_NextPart_000_01BB7024.942ECFD0--

From popserver Fri Jul 12 23:04:53 GMT 1996
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	["740" "Fri" "12" "July" "1996" "19:02:12" "-0400" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "19" "RE: Foreign language mirrors" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: David Levine 
To: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com"
	 ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" 
To: "'Philip Bakelaar'" 
Subject: RE: Foreign language mirrors
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 19:02:12 -0400

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>Well, in that area, you are correct. Well, I say any foreign
>language mirror is better than none, don't you think?

Unless people start complaining "Why is the French page so
out of date?"... etc.  You'd be surprised what people complain
about on your web pages when they're very public.  Sometimes
it's best not to even bother.


------ =_NextPart_000_01BB7024.A3242850--

From popserver Fri Jul 12 23:35:17 GMT 1996
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	["4194" "Fri" "12" "July" "1996" "18:27:49" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@gnt.net" nil "97" "SSRT: Clipper Graham flight 4 scheduled for July 12" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: "L. Parker" 
To: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
        bmansur@oc.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: SSRT: Clipper Graham flight 4 scheduled for July 12
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 18:27:49 -0500

>Return-Path: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu
>From: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu (Chris W. Johnson)
>To: "Single Stage Rocket Technology News" 
>Subject: SSRT: Clipper Graham flight 4 scheduled for July 12
>Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:47:20 -0600
>Sender: listserv@zimbazi.cc.utexas.edu
>X-listname: 
>
>
>---------
>
>
>From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
>Newsgroups: sci.space.news
>Subject: Clipper Graham Flight #4 Scheduled for July 12
>Followup-To: sci.space.policy
>Date: 10 Jul 1996 14:20:24 -0700
>Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
>Lines: 69
>
>Jim Cast
>Headquarters, Washington, DC               July 10, 1996
>(Phone:  202/358-1779)
>
>Dom Amatore
>Marshall Space Flight Center, AL
>(Phone:  205/544-0031)
>
>RELEASE:  96-134
>
>CLIPPER GRAHAM FLIGHT #4 SCHEDULED FOR JULY 12
>
>     The "Clipper Graham" single-stage reusable rocket
>developed by NASA and McDonnell Douglas is scheduled to
>perform its fourth test flight at 3:30 p.m. EDT on Friday,
>July 12, at the U.S. Army White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico.
>
>     The 43-foot-high rocket will reach an altitude of 4,100
>feet and travel laterally 2,800 feet during its planned two-
>minute, 20-second flight.  During its flight the rocket will
>dip its nose 60 degrees toward the horizon, right itself and
>dip its nose 60 degrees in the opposite direction.  This
>flight maneuver will enable evaluation of the performance of
>new lightweight, high-strength materials and components.
>
>     The "Clipper Graham" has flown successfully three times.
>Its first flight was May 18, and its last two flights came
>just 26 hours apart on June 7 and 8.
>
>     The "Clipper Graham" was developed from the U.S. Air
>Force DC-X rocket which flew eight times between August 1993
>and July 1995.  The DC-X airframe was extensively modified by
>replacing existing systems with new technology components
>required for the development of a single-stage-to-orbit
>reusable launch vehicle.  These include a composite liquid
>hydrogen tank, the first ever to fly on a rocket, and a
>Russian-built aluminum-lithium alloy liquid oxygen tank.  The
>vehicle's advanced technology components all have performed
>well during its first three flights according to NASA program
>manager Dan Dumbacher of the Marshall Space Flight Center,
>Huntsville, AL.  The last flight planned for the vehicle will
>feature its first use of a new lightweight auxiliary power
>system which will convert liquid hydrogen to a gas for use in
>the vehicle's flight reaction control system and auxiliary
>power unit.  The reaction control system provides backup for
>the rocket's roll altitude during flight.
>
>     "Clipper Graham" is part of NASA's Reusable Launch
>Vehicle Technology program, together with the X-34 small
>technology demonstrator and the X-33 test vehicle which NASA
>and Lockheed-Martin are developing as a one-half scale model
>of the Reusable Launch Vehicle private industry likely will
>develop and operate during the first decade of the next century.
>
>     The Air Force's Phillips Laboratory at Kirtland Air
>Force Base, NM, is managing flight test operations.
>
>     While the "Clipper Graham" flight tests are not open to
>the general public, news media representatives may cover the
>tests by requesting accreditation from the White Sands
>Missile Range Public Affairs Office (facsimile machine number
>505/678-7174, phone 505/678-1134.  The point of contact is
>Debbie Bingham.  Even those media representatives already
>accredited must register in advance for each flight to ensure
>adequate transportation to the test site.  Media planning to
>view the test flight must be at Bldg. 122 by 11:30 a.m. on
>flight day, July 12.
>
>                    -end-
>
>
>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From popserver Sat Jul 13 15:01:00 GMT 1996
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	["1322" "Fri" "12" "July" "1996" "17:53:46" "-0700" "Ric Rddesign Denisse Hedman" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" nil "46" "Re: My (temporary) LIT Site..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric & Denisse Hedman)
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        David@InterWorld.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: Re: My (temporary) LIT Site...
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 17:53:46 -0700 (PDT)

I'm running Netscape 2.0....it supports Java.......

Ric





>At 6:47 PM 7/11/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote:
>>At 10:34 AM 7/11/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>>>
>>>I like the format for the Space equations programs, but none worked for me.
>>
>>Do you have a JavaScript capable browser? Namely, Netscape? That's pretty
>>much the only browser that will work for those programs. :( Sorry, I don't
>>have access to CGI.. my web server does not allow it. Security issues.
>
>Thats probably the problem then.  But most people probably don't have JAava
>yet.  I wounder  if we should stick to cgi awhile.  question!  Who has what out there?>
>
>>>I also liked the Web links page.  I alread have one worked out, but didn't
>>>have all of Zenons links.  So I'll murge our two when I get a chance.
>>
>>That's good. Let me know when you do.
>>
>>Ben
>
>
>Sure thing.
>
>Kelly
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
>Sr. Systems Engineer
>Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
>(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
Visit RD Designs Home Page at:..http://www.wolfenet.com/~rddesign/Rddesign.htm

From popserver Sat Jul 13 15:02:09 GMT 1996
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	["2447" "Sat" "13" "July" "1996" "03:20:47" "-0700" "Kevin Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "49" "Ads and flakes" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
CC: Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU,
        101765.2200@COMPUSERVE.COM, neill@foda.math.usu.edu,
        pbakelaar@exit109.com
Subject: Ads and flakes
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 03:20:47 -0700

Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:

(note:  I made some one-letter changes in Kelly's replies to improve the 
readability.  Edited Lines contain an "#" instead of a ">"  If I mis-represent 
what you meant Kelly, please let me know.  If this bothers you, I'll stop)

> >If all Zenon can afford is 20 zlotys,  Then that's fine.  The money is not
> >the main
> >issue here.  I fully expect LIT to pull in it's fair share of traffic.
> # It certainly seems to get a good amount of traffic compared to other spasce
> interest boards.  The Millenial socyity board is ranked amoung the top %5
> and its gotten 11,000 hits this year.  We've been getting about a thousand# a month and our sites practically dead.
> 
> >> Kelly writes:
> >> > Actually I like the idea of adds.  Besides the money aspect, it gives us a
> >> > more succesful and profesional image.  No one sponcers or advertises on
> >> > fools pages.  So if we can get a couple sponcership icons from credible
> >> > groups (aerospace or space related especially) it would give us more
> >> > credibility.  Not critical, but a plus.
> >> >
> >> Yes, I think it is possibly true -
> >> if the ads were from the credible groups.
> >>
> >> -- Zenon
> >
> >Credible or not, as long as the check is good.  :)
> >Kevin
> 
> I don't know.  If their flaky or weird we might want to think about it.
> Unless its a big check.  ;)

The ads I was thinking of running would be standard Banner GIF's. 400 x 40 pixels
seems to be the consensus among many sites.  Since not too much information can be 
displayed in such an ad, they are not usually very flakey.  As to whether we look 
bad or not, I think most people would understand that they are just ads and the views 
are not endorsed by us.

As to price, I think the best way to charge for the ads is on a per-placement 
basis at $0.01 each.  Since each page can have it's own ad (It doesn't have 
to, just could) our 1000 hits could easily become $30-$40/month in revenue.  
Allowing URLy-Bird.com to place just 1 banner ad on the LIT Site would allow
much of the cost of the site to be offset.  I would say that the limit to ads 
should be 1 per page.  Each ad-space would show a different ad, according to
rotation (assuming we can get more than one advertiser  ;) check out:
http://www.vtourist.com/ads/ for an idea of how another company is handling this.

The CGI Scripts to handle the ads should be fairly simple, and straight foreward.

Kevin

From popserver Sat Jul 13 15:02:10 GMT 1996
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	["613" "Sat" "13" "July" "1996" "03:22:56" "-0700" "Kevin Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "22" "Re: Bad E-mail  ALERT!" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
CC: KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@COMPUSERVE.COM, neill@foda.math.usu.edu,
        pbakelaar@exit109.com
Subject: Re: Bad E-mail  ALERT!
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 03:22:56 -0700

Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
> 
> At 8:52 PM 7/11/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote:
> >Stephen Landry  wrote:
> >>
> >> no more messages sent here ok,,,tell allthe other list members
> >
> >Okay, will do. sorry about that.
> >
> >Hey guys, check your cc lists, and your address books.
> >It looks like weve been mail bombing someone who is not interested.
> >
> >please remove MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU from this list.
> >
> >Kevin
> 
> Wounder how he got Mike Lineskis account?
> 

Think we oughta check with the sysop to verify that the account wasn't hacked?

Kevin

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From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
To: Steve VanDevender 
CC: Rex & Timothy , KellySt@aol.com,
        kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@CompuServe.COM,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, pbakelaar@exit109.com
Subject: Re: 
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 03:35:42 -0700

Steve VanDevender wrote:
> 
> Rex Lessa Timothy writes:
>  > I think we should use Java instead of SGI-scripts. They have the advantage
>  > that people from all platforms (DOS, Mac, Unix) can program them, so we have
>  > more independance.
>  > Besides that, Java(script) is clearly something that will overrule SGI in
>  > the futere (with a few exceptions of course).
>  > I'm quite sure that in half a year, almost everyone has a Java-compatible
>  > browser, those that haven't are probably not interested enough (You can get
>  > it for free for almost all platforms, and installation is almost without
>  > problems).
>  >
>  > Timothy
> 
> Do you mean CGI (Common Gateway Interface) instead of SGI (Silicon
> Graphics, Incorporated)?
> 
> Having worked with CGI a fair amount and knowing more or less what Java
> is, I can't agree at all with your proposition.  While you can do a lot
> of neat things with Java applets, they are by no means a complete
> replacement for CGI -- most importantly, because Java applets run on
> your computer rather than on the web server, there are things that would
> be easy to do with CGI that would be almost impossible to do with Java.
> Certainly, the converse is also true; you can do things in Java that are
> almost impossible to do with CGI.
>

I think I agree with Steve here.  a lot of the people coming to our site will
be university students sitting in a computer lab (avoiding their homework)
using Lynx or some other text browser.  For the near-term, we should try to 
make sure that our pages work the widest possible audience.  While Java works
great in Netscape and other browsers, CGI works fine also.   

> 
> I also happen to believe that the Web is not just for people with
> Netscape or other graphical browsers.  I can't tell you how disgusted I
> am dealing with "Netscape-enhanced" pages or pages that work only in
> graphical browsers.

The web is for all people, certainly, but if certain sites don't want to take the 
trouble to code the alt="" tags, then text-onlies just have to live with it.  Of
course, the sites that behave that way get fewer hits.  and alienate many potential
friends.

Kevin.

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To: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: SSRT: Space Access Update no. 67
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 09:00:51 -0500

>Return-Path: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu
>From: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu (Chris W. Johnson)
>To: "Single Stage Rocket Technology News" 
>Subject: SSRT: Space Access Update no. 67
>Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 16:57:21 -0600
>Sender: listserv@zimbazi.cc.utexas.edu
>X-listname: 
>
>
>-----------
>
>
>From: hvanderbilt@BIX.com (hvanderbilt on BIX)
>Newsgroups: sci.space.policy
>Subject: Space Access Update #67  7/11/96
>Date: 12 Jul 96 06:45:54 GMT
>Organization: Delphi Internet Services Corporation
>Lines: 553
>
>
>                     Space Access Update #67  7/11/96
>                 Copyright 1996 by Space Access Society
>_______________________________________________________________________
>
>It's been an interesting week since the X-33 winner announcement.  All
>sorts of alarums and excursions from people who'd forgotten this was a
>competition and expected their favorite to win; more seriously, huge
>amounts of new data to absorb and make sense of while we and our
>colleagues thrashed out answers to the twin questions: What does this
>mean, and What next?  Read on...
>_______________________________________________________________________
>
>Stories this issue:
>
> - Lockheed-Martin "Venture Star" Wins X-33 Downselect
>
> - NASA OSAT Due For Radical Change In HQ Restructuring
>
> - DC-XA Flight 4 Due Friday July 12th
>
> - A Low-Cost X-33 Backup? (!)
>
> - DOD SSTO Funding Alert - Maximum effort needed!
>
>-----------------------(SAS Policy Boilerplate)------------------------
>
>Space Access Update is Space Access Society's when-there's-news
>publication. Space Access Society's goal is to promote affordable access
>to space for all, period.  We believe in concentrating our resources at
>whatever point looks like yielding maximum progress toward this goal.
>
>Right now, we think this means working our tails off trying to get the
>government to build and fly a high-speed reusable rocket demonstrator, one
>or more "X-rockets", in the next three years, in order to quickly build up
>both experience with and confidence in reusable Single-Stage To Orbit
>(SSTO) technology.  The idea is to reduce SSTO technical uncertainty (and
>thus development risk and cost) while at the same time increasing investor
>confidence, to the point where SSTO will make sense as a private commercial
>investment.  We have reason to believe we're not far from that point now.
>
>Our major current focus is on supporting the government's fully reusable
>single-stage rocket technology programs, the low-speed DC-XA, and its
>high-speed followon, the X-33 NASA/DOD/industry cooperative project.
>
>With luck and hard work, we should see fully-reusable rocket testbeds flying
>into space well before the end of this decade, with practical orbital
>transport projects getting underway.  Join us, and help us make it happen.
>
>            Henry Vanderbilt, Executive Director, Space Access Society
>
>
>To join Space Access Society or buy the SSTO/DC-X V 3.0 video we have for
>sale (Two hours, includes all eight DC-X flights, X-33 animations, X-33,
>DC-X and SSTO backgrounders, aerospike engine test-stand footage, plus
>White Sands Missile Range DC-X ops site post flight footage) mail a check
>to:  SAS, 4855 E Warner Rd #24-150, Phoenix AZ 85044.  SAS membership with
>direct email of Space Access Updates is $30 US per year; the SSTO V 3.0
>video is $25, $5 off for SAS members, $8 extra for shipping outside the US
>and Canada, VHS NTSC only.
>__________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>           Lockheed-Martin "Venture Star" Wins X-33 Downselect
>
>On July 2nd, 1996, at Caltech's Jet Propulsion Lab in Pasadena
>California, Vice President Al Gore and NASA Administrator Dan Goldin
>together lifted the concealing cover from a scale model of the winner of
>the X-33 experimental reusable rocket demonstrator competition,
>revealing Lockheed-Martin's "Venture Star" triangular lifting body as
>NASA's choice for the billion-dollar three-year cooperative project.
>
> - What Are The Specs?
>
>Lockheed-Martin's X-33 design will lift off vertically, at a fully-
>fuelled weight of 273,000 lbs, powered by two sets of Rocketdyne J-2S
>turbomachinery (the J-2S was an upgraded version of the Saturn 5's J-2
>upper-stage engine) feeding liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen to two
>banks of small thrust chambers in a "linear aerospike" arrangement on
>either side of the ship's blunt wedge-shaped trailing edge, producing
>a total of just over 400,000 lbs of thrust at takeoff.  Steering while
>under rocket power will be totally by differential throttling of the four
>banks of thrust chambers, side-to-side, and top-row-to-bottom-row.
>Steering during gliding flight before runway landing will be by a variety
>of aerodynamic control surfaces.
>
>The triangular experimental flight vehicle will be 67 feet from nose
>to tail, 68 feet wide including the upward-slanted fins on the aft
>corners, and will weigh 63,000 lbs with empty propellant tanks.  Thermal
>protection will be by new advanced metallic TPS plates backed by
>insulation over the composite plastic vehicle outer shell.  The
>vehicle's broad curved underside (it reenters pretty much belly-first)
>spreads reentry heat loads out over a wide area, reducing maximum
>temperatures and allowing the use of metallic rather than tile TPS.  The
>tradeoff for this is low hypersonic Lift-to-Drag ratio (L:D) which means
>low reentry maneuverability, low "crossrange".  A reasonable tradeoff
>for a precursor to a routine cargo-hauler... Maximum X-33 speed is
>described as mach 15+, roughly 60% of orbital velocity.  The vehicle
>will be returned to base after flights on the back of a NASA Shuttle
>Carrier 747.
>
> - What's The Plan?
>
>Gene Austin, NASA's X-33 project manager, is currently in Palmdale
>California setting up an on-site office for himself and his staff.  NASA
>has most of its $43m in FY'96 X-33 funds for use in getting the project
>off to a flying start this summer.  At some point after October 1st,
>NASA should have something over $250m in FY'97 X-33 funding available,
>out of a total $324.7m for FY'97 RLV/Advanced Space Technology in the
>likely FY'97 NASA budget.  NASA is reported to be asking Lockheed-Martin
>to commit their contribution to the cooperative project early, to avoid
>a repeat of the X-34 Mk I "cooperative" fiasco, where the contractors
>apparently spent $10m of NASA's money but little of their own before
>bailing out.
>
>X-33 is scheduled for first flight less than three years from now, in
>March 1999.  Lockheed-Martin is starting to recruit the hundreds of
>additional people who'll be needed to build the new ship.  They will
>build the ship in Palmdale, California and fly it out of nearby Edwards
>Air Force Base.  Current plans call for approximately a dozen flights,
>with high-and-fast tests from flight #3 on going out of the Edwards test
>range over the sparsely populated regions to the northeast, on a flight
>corridor to Malmstrom AFB, Montana.  Flight #1 is planned to go thirty
>miles to a strip at Bicycle Lake CA, #2 to Michaels AAF in Utah.
>
>The ship is to be unmanned, operated by constant telecomm link via
>ground stations along the flight path.  There is no current provision
>for either a second copy of the ship or for long-lead spares to build a
>second ship in the event of loss of the first.  These will presumably
>depend on additional funding being scrounged.
>
> - How'd They Win?
>
>NASA has announced that Lockheed-Martin's winning X-33 bid included a
>$220 million bidder contribution.  We understand that this $220m is a
>mix of cash, in-kind use of existing company resources, and IR&D funds
>("Internal R&D" money, essentially general-purpose Federal corporate
>technology-base subsidies) from both Lockheed-Martin and various of
>their subcontractors.
>
>We're still collecting data on the other aspects of the competition,
>technical merit, "RLV" operational followon business plans, and so
>forth.  But at first glance, it appears Lockheed-Martin won at least in
>part because they were willing to commit significantly more of their own
>resources than either McDonnell-Douglas or Rockwell.
>
>NASA has been saying that one reason Lockheed-Martin won is that their
>X-33 pushes more new technologies farther than the other bids.  We find
>this mildly puzzling, as it seems to us to increase program risk over
>the simpler solutions, but then NASA does have a certain institutional
>tendency to favor maximum new tech in a project.  Since we have our own
>risk-reduction plan in mind (more on this later in the Update) we can
>live with this.  In fact, many of the new technologies in Lockheed-
>Martin's X-33 (metallic TPS, multilobed composite cryo tanks, aerospike
>engines) do look generically useful if they work out.
>
>NASA has also been saying that this X-33 is more representative of its
>hypothetical "RLV" operational followon than the other two bids.  We'll
>confine ourselves to observing that three years is a long time and
>things are likely to change, a lot, as experience is gained and the
>market defines itself better.
>
>This brings us to Lockheed-Martin's "RLV business plan" submitted as
>part of the X-33 bid.  As best we can tell, the gist of this plan is to
>spend about $2 billion of company money (Lockheed-Martin is projected to
>be seriously cash-rich by the end of the decade) plus a bit more than
>that in short-term loans to develop a fleet of three shuttle-class-cargo
>ships (15-30 tons payload depending on the target orbit).  The loans
>will then be paid off by selling NASA eight Shuttle-replacement flights
>a year at a price of $250m-$300m a flight (around two-thirds of current
>Shuttle operating costs) for two to three years.  Lockheed-Martin then
>plans to fly 20-30 flights a year at a price of $10m-$15m a flight; their
>fully amortized cost per flight (projected from their target of $100/lb)
>looks to be $4m-$6m.
>
>Our main comment on this plan is that it is likely to change a lot over the
>next four years.
>
>We note, for instance, that the National Reconaissance Office (NRO), a
>major current customer for 20-ton class satellite launches on L-M's
>Titan 4 (and occasionally on Shuttle, soon to be 50% L-M's under the USA
>Shuttle operating partnership with Rockwell) is suddenly talking very
>seriously of switching over to larger numbers of cheaper 5-ton
>satellites.  Optimal RLV sizing could change radically between now and
>the year 2000.
>
>We note too that Lockheed-Martin's "RLV Business Plan" calls for capture
>of over 90% of the existing space launch market, an effective monopoly.
>We believe our cause, affordable reliable access to space for all, will
>be far better served by ongoing technical, corporate, and institutional
>competition in low-cost launch, and we intend to actively support such
>competition.  Even if we didn't feel this way, chances are that between
>the other two X-33 bidders (neither McDonnell-Douglas nor Rockwell have
>any plans to immediately disband their design teams), the host of other
>established and wannabe aerospace outfits, and the host of other space
>access customers outside NASA, there will be competition in this market.
>
>We'll close with this:  We expect any of the X-33 bidders could have
>produced a ship adequate to our goal of developing and demonstrating
>reusable SSTO technology to the point of commercial viability.  We
>intend to vigorously support the NASA/Lockheed-Martin X-33 while it
>looks like serving this goal.  We congratulate the Lockheed-Martin team
>on their win, and we look forward to their producing an X-33 that flies
>soon, (semi)savably, high, fast, and often.
>
>It's going to be an interesting fin de siecle - a rocket powered one!
>
>__________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>          NASA OSAT Due For Radical Change In HQ Restructuring
>
>According to documents we've seen posted on the "NASA RIF watch" web
>site (http://www.reston.com/rif/watch.html) NASA's Office of Space
>Access & Technology (OSAT), "Code X", is slated for perhaps the most
>radical change seen in the current NASA HQ restructuring and cutbacks.
>OSAT's advanced technology functions are to be split off and divided up
>among various NASA centers, while the space access function, essentially
>the current Reusable Launch Vehicle (RLV) program under Gary Payton, is
>to be upgraded to a full HQ Office with its own Associate Administrator
>- presumably Payton - reporting directly to Administrator Goldin.
>
>Tough times for the majority of the current OSAT staff, who have our
>sympathy for their quest to find new niches within NASA or without.  But
>we think this change is a good thing for our main objective; it shortens
>the lines of communications and gives more weight to access within NASA.
>
>__________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>                        DC-XA Flight 4 Due Friday
>
>The rebuilt DC-XA reusable rocket ops testbed has had its fourth flight
>rescheduled for early afternoon of this Friday, July 12th.  The flight
>had been delayed by turbine problems with a new Auxiliary Power Unit
>(APU) being integrated into the DC-XA.  The APU won't be used this
>flight; it is now scheduled for first test on flight 5 in late July.
>
>We strongly support extension of the DC-XA test program beyond the
>currently scheduled five flights; we've talked with the engineers
>involved from both NASA and McDonnell-Douglas and they agree that there
>is much to be learned from additional flights.  The cost of continuing
>this summer's flight test program beyond flight 5 is relatively small, a
>few million dollars - pocket change in the rocket test business.
>
>__________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>                         A Low-Cost X-33 Backup?
>
>Here we get to the nub of our question - What next?  Lockheed-Martin X-33
>addresses a number of potential high-payoff RLV technologies, but
>bypasses a number of others equally promising.  And no such project is a
>sure thing; there is alway risk - institutional, organizational, and
>technological.  This month's X-33 go-ahead is no guarantee we'll have a
>useful ship flying three years from now.  We intend no insult to anyone
>involved when we say that if we can afford to pursue one or more
>alternative approaches to cheap space transportation in parallel with
>NASA/Lockheed-Martin X-33, we should do so, in order to greatly improve
>the overall chances of the nation benefitting from its investment in
>reusable rocket technologies.
>
>We're not exactly being radical here - the benefits of competing
>multiple technical approaches are well-established historically.  This
>improves the odds of success both by not putting the whole bet on one
>approach, and by the added incentive to do well the competition gives
>all the participants.  You tend to run faster when you hear footsteps
>close behind... NASA is in fact on record as wanting more than one ship
>if the money can be found.
>
>(Some of our more cynical colleagues have pointed out that even though
>pride/professional integrity would likely cause the new X-33 engineering
>team to do their best regardless, Lockheed-Martin's overall corporate
>interests might be just as well-served by delays (or even never-fly
>bogdown) of X-33 as by success, absent active competition, given L-M's
>extensive interests in current launch systems.  Appallingly cynical,
>some of our colleagues...  Admittedly this would require a short-sighted
>approach on the part of L-M top management, given that what's at stake
>is a chance to be the Boeing of the 21st century spaceliner business.)
>
>If the money can be found, there's the rub.  NASA has had to strain hard
>to make room for X-33 within its steadily shrinking budget.  There is no
>realistic chance of digging up another $900 million plus within NASA
>that we can see.  Or anywhere else for that matter.  An additional
>technical approach is going to have to be a lot cheaper than $900
>million over the next three years - $50m-$75m a year over FY'97-99 is,
>maybe, doable.  But even that would have to be for a ship with
>considerable standalone technical merit.  And even that would be hard
>within NASA's narrowing budget wedge.
>
>We haven't been loafing this past week; we think we see a second RLV X-
>project that can be usefully done within those funding limits, that is
>highly technologically complementary to the X-33, and that can be done
>without significant additional pressure on NASA's budget.
>
>We're talking about a proposal we've seen to build on the current DC-XA
>program with a series of stretches, upgrades, and rebuilds, via a USAF/NASA
>partnership, with USAF taking the managerial and funding lead.  The broad
>outline of the proposed program, with estimated funding levels:
>
> - DC-XA extended ops tests, 1996, $3m USAF, $3m NASA.
>
> - DC-XB - new tanks, stretched aeroshell, thermal protection, fifth
>center engine, mach 3+, flies summer '98, $70m USAF, $10m NASA.
>
> - DC-XC - new conformal LH2 tank, improved TPS, lighter structures,
>upgraded engines, Mach 10+, flies fall '99, USAF $130m, NASA TBD
>depending on desired NASA advanced technology tests.
>
>                                ***
>
>We think something like this program would be a good thing for USAF, for
>NASA, and for the country - good enough that we intend to shift as much of
>our focus as can be spared from keeping X-33 on track over to trying to
>make DC-XB/C happen.  Here's why.
>
>DC-XB/C complements X-33 very well, technologically and in terms of
>institutional approach, exploring many known promising RLV technical
>alternatives that are outside the scope of X-33.  DC-XB/C is also a good
>affordable hedge to the high-stakes X-33 bet.
>
> - X-33 does horizontal runway landing, DC-XB/C would pursue vertical
>wingless small-pad powered landing.
> - X-33 uses medium-temperature metallic thermal protection, DC-XB/C
>would use new high-durability high-temperature tile TPS.
> - X-33 tests new 'aerospike' rocket engines; DC-XB/C would demonstrate
>use of multiple traditional bell-nozzle engines for engine-out redundancy.
> - X-33 will pioneer use of complex multilobe composite propellant tanks,
>DC-XB/C will provide insurance against manufacturing/durability problems
>with much simpler geometry tankage.
> - X-33 will test out low L:D low heat-load reentry profiles, DC-XB/C will
>explore high-maneuverability high hypersonic L:D flight.
> - X-33 will be oriented toward fixed operating bases with specialized
>ground-handling equipment for ship and payload processing, DC-XB/C will be
>aimed at more mobile operations out of small austere sites.
> - X-33 is in our view a relatively high-risk high-payoff approach, bundling
>a number of new technologies into a relatively complex and sophisticated
>package.  If it all works, it's a great ship - but there's a lot of
>potential for delay; a lot of new things all have to come together at once
>at the end of a very tight schedule.  DC-XB/C takes a much more incremental
>approach - "build a little, test a little."
>
>It looks like a USAF Phillips Labs/MDA/NASA DC-XB/C (we do not know for
>a fact that's where this proposal came from, but it seems a safe bet)
>would be both affordable and a very useful complement to NASA/L-M X-33.
>
>We also think this approach is politically doable, or we wouldn't be
>pursuing it like this.  First, NASA's top leadership endorses competing
>X-vehicles but has a bad budget pinch to deal with.  Spending USAF money
>for a second bird that NASA still gets data from and flight-test use of
>is we think a good deal for NASA.
>
>As for USAF, there's growing interest there in the eventual next-century
>defense applications of affordable space sortie vehicles.  DC-XB/C lays
>a lot of the groundwork for such at a bargain-basement price - the
>DC-XB/C configuration's austere ops site potential and high hypersonic
>maneuverability both fit well with eventual USAF needs, as well as
>providing useful operational flexibility for future commercial missions.
>
>The Congress can never be taken for granted, but there's likely a
>coalition to be built for a ship this long-term useful and this cheap.
>
>As for this Administration, well, that's always an interesting question.
>There's a strong tendency to oppose any new military space operational
>capabilities, but DC-XB/C, technologically useful though it may be, is
>not in anyone's wildest imagination stretchable to an operational ship.
>At maximum stretch it will have a couple hundred miles range at less
>than half of orbital velocity.  And it's relatively cheap, and it's very
>much dual-use technology, with huge potential civilian aerospace
>payoffs.  Given Congressional, USAF, and NASA support, this White House
>may well be persuadable to go along.
>
>__________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>                        DOD SSTO Funding Alert
>
>  (Maximum effort needed!  Get EVERYBODY you can talk into it to help
>  on this one.  We have a brand new program here and we need to sell
>  the living bejabers out of it - we need to get funds for this into
>  the FY'97 budget NOW.)
>
>Congressional support for USAF reusable rocket work, meanwhile, very
>much cannot be taken for granted.  Left alone, we would likely see
>between $25 million and nothing at all for Fiscal Year '97 (FY'97 starts
>October 1st) out of the Congressional Defense funding bills.  We need at
>least $50 million, which in addition to the still-unreleased $25 million
>in FY'96 funds would be enough to get DC-XB (the summer '98 Mach 3+
>upgrade) well underway, along with advance work on the Mach 10 DC-XC.
>
>There are two House-Senate DOD funding conferences we need to work,
>Authorization, already underway, and Appropriations, starting sometime
>next week.  Of the two, Authorizations is important, but Appropriations
>is CRITICAL.
>
>The FY'97 DOD Authorizations bill (think of it as the authorized
>shopping list) is already in House-Senate conference.  This conference
>is likely to go on at least through next week; there's still time to
>affect the process.  The House version has $50 million, the Senate $25
>million - we mainly need to work for support in the Senate Armed
>Services Committee (SASC) for acceding to the House number.
>
>The FY'97 DOD Appropriations conference (think of it as actually writing
>the checks) will get underway as soon as the Senate passes their version
>of the DOD FY'97 Appropriations bill, likely early next week.  The House
>version calls for $25 million for USAF reusable rocket work.  The Senate
>version almost certainly will call for nothing at all.
>
>We need to work both sides of this conference HARD to raise the amount
>appropriated to $50 million.  These guys know they're writing real
>checks from a limited account; this one will be tough - but we have to
>talk them into supporting this.
>
>If a Senator from your state is on the SASC or Senate Appropriations
>Defense Subcommittee lists attached, or if a Representative whose
>district you live in or near is on the attached House Appropriations
>Defense Subcommittee list, call write or fax them by early this coming
>week of July 15th, and ask them to support: $50 million in FY'97
>reusable rocket funding for USAF Phillips Labs, and also $50 million for
>the Clementine II asteroid flyby probe in FY'97 (we made a mutual
>support deal, and Clementine II seems a fairly good thing anyway.)
>
>Both the Phillips Labs reusable rocket work and Clementine 2 strike us as
>prime examples of "dual-use" technologies - both have potential long-term
>military applications (Clementine 1 and the proposed Clementine 2 both
>use(d) SDIO-developed miniaturized sensors and components to do their
>science missions small, fast, and cheap) and both have considerable
>economic/scientific civilian benefit.  See the previous article for
>details on why DC-XB/C is a good thing for USAF to be doing - the Senate
>in particular will want convincing that spending this DOD money is
>actually relevant to national defense.
>
>How you approach your Senator or Representative on these recommendations
>is up to you, of course.  Always tell the truth!  But sometimes emphasize
>the aspects they're more likely to respond to...
>
>As usual, if you call or fax, be brief and be polite; the overworked
>staffers will appreciate it.
>
>If you call, tell them who you are ("Hi, I'm Joe Smith from district/state>") and what you want ("I'm calling about a couple things
>I'd like to see supported in the Defense Appropriations/Authorizations
>markup").  They may switch you to another staffer (more likely to that
>staffer's voicemail) or they may ask you what those things you want are.
>If they ask, tell them you support $50 million in funding for reusable
>rocket work at USAF Phillips Labs, and also for the Clementine 2 asteroid
>probe.  If they have any questions, answer them as best you can; if not,
>thank them for their time and ring off.  If you end up with another
>staffer's voicemail, repeat the whole message of who you are, where you
>want something done, and what it is you want, then thank 'em for their
>time and ring off.
>
>If you fax or write, keep it to one page, lead off with what you want (as
>above), and then follow up with a paragraph or two of why you think these
>things are worth funding if you're so inclined.
>
>
>                  Senate Armed Services Committee List
>
>("Senator XYZ, US Senate, Washington DC 20510" will get mail to them.)
>                                    voice           fax
>Sen. Thurmond, Strom (R  SC)       1-202-224-5972 1-202-224-1300
>Sen. Nunn, Sam (D GA)              1-202-224-3521 1-202-224-0072
>Sen. Lott, Trent (R MS)            1-202-224-6253 1-202-224-2262
>Sen. Hutchison, Kay Bailey (R TX)  1-202-224-5922 1-202-224-0776
>Sen. Bryan, Richard H. (D NV)      1-202-224-6244 1-202-224-1867
>Sen. McCain, John (R AZ)           1-202-224-2235 1-202-228-2862
>Sen. Byrd, Robert C. (D WV)        1-202-224-3954 1-202-224-4025
>Sen. Cohen, William S. (R ME)      1-202-224-2523 1-202-224-2693
>Sen. Coats, Daniel R. (R IN)       1-202-224-5623 1-202-224-8964
>Sen. Smith, Robert (R NH)          1-202-224-2841 1-202-224-1353
>Sen. Kempthorne, Dirk (R ID)       1-202-224-6142 1-202-224-5893
>Sen. Warner, John W. (R VA)        1-202-224-2023 1-202-224-6295
>Sen. Inhofe, James (R OK)          1-202-224-4721 1-202-224-????
>Sen. Santorum, Rick (R PA)         1-202-224-6324 1-202-224-4161
>Sen. Bingaman, Jeff (D NM)         1-202-224-5521 1-202-224-2852
>Sen. Levin, Carl (D MI)            1-202-224-6221 1-202-224-1388
>Sen. Kennedy, Edward M. (D MA)     1-202-224-4543 1-202-224-2417
>Sen. Lieberman, Joseph I. (D CT)   1-202-224-4041 1-202-224-9750
>Sen. Robb, Charles S. (D VA)       1-202-224-4024 1-202-224-8689
>Sen. Glenn, John (D OH)            1-202-224-3353 1-202-224-7983
>
>
> Senate Appropriations Subcommittee, National Security Subcommittee
>                                          voice       fax
> Sen. Hatfield, Mark (R OR)         1-202-224-3753 1-202-224-0276
> (chair, full SAC)
>
> Sen. Byrd, Robert (D WV)           1-202-224-3954 1-202-224-4025
> (Ranking Minority Member, full SAC)
>
> Sen. Stevens, Ted (R AK)           1-202-224-3004 1-202-224-1044
> (chair, SAC NatSec Sub)
>
> Sen. Inouye, Daniel (D HI)         1-202-224-3934 1-202-224-6747
> (Ranking Minority Member, SAC NatSec Sub)
>
> Sen. Cochran, Thad (R MS)          1-202-224-5054 1-202-224-3576
> Sen. Gramm, Phil (R TX)            1-202-224-2934 1-202-228-2856
> Sen. Domenici, Pete V. (R NM)      1-202-224-6621 1-202-224-7371
> Sen. McConnell, Mitch (R KY)       1-202-224-2541 1-202-224-2499
> Sen. Specter, Arlen (R PA)         1-202-224-4254 1-202-224-1893
> Sen. Bond, Christopher (R MO)      1-202-224-5721 1-202-224-8149
> Sen. Mack, Connie (R FL)           1-202-224-5274 1-202-224-8022
> Sen. Shelby, Richard C. (R AL)     1-202-224-5744 1-202-224-3416
> Sen. Hollings, Ernest (D SC)       1-202-224-6121 1-202-224-4293
> Sen. Johnston, J. Bennett (D LA)   1-202-224-5824 1-202-224-2952
> Sen. Leahy, Patrick (D VT)         1-202-224-4242 1-202-224-3595
> Sen. Harkin, Thomas (D IA)         1-202-224-3254 1-202-224-7431
> Sen. Lautenberg, Frank (D NJ)      1-202-224-4744 1-202-224-9707
>
>
> House Appropriations Committee, National Security Subcommittee List
>("Representative XYZ, US House, Washington DC 20515" will get mail to them.)
>
>(Appropriations Chair)                    voice       fax
>  Livingston, Robert (R-01 LA)       1-202-225-3015 1-202-225-0739
>
>(Appropriations Ranking Minority Member)
>  Obey, David R. (D-07)              1-202-225-3365 1-202-225-0561
>
>(NatSec Subcommittee Chair)
>  Young, C. W. Bill (R-10 FL)        1-202-225-5961 1-202-225-9764
>
>(NatSecSubcommittee RMM)
>  Murtha, John P. (D-12 PA)          1-202-225-2065 1-202-225-5709
>
>  Lewis, Jerry (R-40 CA)             1-202-225-5861 1-202-225-6498
>  Livingston, Robert (R-01 LA)       1-202-225-3015 1-202-225-0739
>  Sabo, Martin Olav (D-05 MN)        1-202-225-4755 1-202-225-4886
>  Hefner, Bill (D-08 NC)             1-202-225-3715 1-202-225-4036
>  Skeen, Joseph (R-02 NM)            1-202-225-2365 1-202-225-9599
>  Hobson, David L. (R-07 OH)         1-202-225-4324 1-202-225-1984
>  McDade, Joseph M. (R-10 PA)        1-202-225-3731 1-202-225-9594
>  Bonilla, Henry (R-23 TX)           1-202-225-4511 1-202-225-2237
>  Wilson, Charles (D-02 TX)          1-202-225-2401 1-202-225-1764
>  Nethercutt, George (R-05 WA)       1-202-225-2006 1-202-225-7181
>  Dicks, Norman D. (D-06 WA)         1-202-225-5916 1-202-226-1176
>  Neumann, Mark (R-01 WI)            1-202-225-3031 1-202-225-3393
>
>__________________________________________________________________________
>
> Space Access Society      "Reach low orbit and you're halfway to anywhere
> 4855 E Warner Rd #24-150               in the Solar System."
> Phoenix AZ 85044                               - Robert A. Heinlein
> 602 431-9283 voice/fax
> www.space-access.org                     "You can't get there from here."
> space.access@space-access.org                          - Anonymous
>
> - Permission granted to redistribute the full and unaltered text of this -
> - piece, including the copyright and this notice.  All other rights      -
> - reserved.  In other words, crossposting, emailing, or printing this    -
> - whole and passing it on to interested parties is strongly encouraged.  -
>
>
>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From popserver Mon Jul 15 15:00:47 GMT 1996
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	["364" "Sun" "14" "July" "1996" "12:11:37" "-0400" "KellySt@aol.com" "KellySt@aol.com" nil "10" "Re: RE: Foreign language mirrors" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: David@interworld.com (davidlevine), KellySt@aol.com (kellyst@aol.com),
        kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (kgstar@most.fw.hac.com),
        stevev@efn.org (stevev@efn.org),
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu (jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu),
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        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu (hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu)
Subject: Re: RE: Foreign language mirrors
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 12:11:37 -0400

> Obviously.  My problem is that when I make a change to
> the English page, if we want the other language pages to 
> be up-to-date, someone will have to make changes to 
> them for every little change I make.  It could get 
> cumbersome after a while.

We have a hard enough time geting people to write up and maintain stuff in
the english versions!   ;)

Kelly

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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: David@interworld.com, Lessa@worldnet.att.net, stevev@efn.org
cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: Re: RE: 
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 12:11:12 -0400

>Having worked with CGI a fair amount and knowing more or less what Java
>is, I can't agree at all with your proposition.  While you can do a lot
>of neat things with Java applets, they are by no means a complete
>replacement for CGI -- most importantly, because Java applets run on
>your computer rather than on the web server, there are things that would
>be easy to do with CGI that would be almost impossible to do with Java.
>Certainly, the converse is also true; you can do things in Java that are
>almost impossible to do with CGI.
>
>Probably the most useful thing you can do with CGI is search databases
>on a server or do other computation- or data-intensive tasks that would
>be impractical on a typical personal computer.  I can't see any
>efficient way to do that using Java applets.  You won't see Alta Vista
>(http://www.altavista.digital.com/) implemented as a Java applet any
>time soon.

I strongly agree.  I was reluctant to even use maps as the table of contents,
since I know a lot of people (probably most) don't have that capability.  I
also use Netscape 1.1 and Mosaic as test browsers.  Not the most curent aplet
enhanced apps.  Certainly I would strongly argue against converting things
like our on-line computer center apps to applets.

Kelly
P.S.
By the way.  If someone wants to try to write up Tims relatavistic
calculations as CGI aps that would be usefull.

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From: David Levine 
To: "Lessa@worldnet.att.net" ,
        "stevev@efn.org"
	 ,
        "'KellySt@aol.com'" 
Cc: "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" ,
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Cc: "DotarSojat@aol.com" ,
        "neill@foda.math.usu.edu"
	 ,
        "101765.2200@compuserve.com"
	 <101765.2200@compuserve.com>
Subject: RE: RE: Java, etc
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 13:35:02 -0400

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.  Contact your
mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a version
that supports MIME.

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Of course, just because we make all the basics accessable to everyone
with CGI (or directly linked libraries) doesn't mean we CAN'T do any neat
stuff in Java for those that can view it... it just means we have to
remember
that that ISN'T the baseline system.  Kelly asked earlier who has what
out there.... You'll be surprised to learn (maybe) that out of all the
Windows
users out there, a solid majority still use Windows 3.1, not Windows 95.
And may continue to do so for a long time.  Certainly at schools, where
money can be a problem, it will be a while until these people upgrade...
and these are the kind of people we seriously want to reach.  Windows 3.1
is a 16-bit operating system, and even with Win32s can't run anything
like Java, which needs a true multithreading OS.  Of course, IBM is coming
up with some kind of "fix" to simulate multithreading on Microsoft's old
3.1,
but it may be a while.

However, -most- web browsers currently in use are Netscape 1.x or 2.x.
The highest percentage is 2.x, but a significant number of users are still
on 1.x, which cannot do java, frames, etc.  Also, a large number of users
-are- using other browsers, and we don't want to alienate them.

But, again, it doesn't prevent us from doing cool stuff for those that can
view it.... we just need to make sure that everyone gets a basic access.



------ =_NextPart_000_01BB7189.44BDFAA0--

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Philip Bakelaar 
Cc: Rex & Timothy , KellySt@aol.com,
        kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
Subject: Re:
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 07:49:54 -0500

At 6:19 PM 7/12/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote:
>At 07:09 PM 7/12/96 GMT, Rex & Timothy wrote:
>>Hi Ben,
>>
>>I saw your spacepro.htm page, maybe you should add the formula's with the
>>fill-out form, it makes it easier for people to see what is actually
>calculated.
>
>Sure. I was actually planning on doing that tonite or tomorrow anyway!

I'm missing something?  I thought we agreed to not use the Java versions
since they weren't usable by the general audience.  Or are these just for
your practice not for the LIT site.


>>I wonder if translations in other languages are useful at all, if someone
>>who only speaks Spanish would comment, I (and probably most other members)
>>would not be able to respond. Besides that, I would like to be able to read
>>"my own" writings. Also I belief that it is long time for people to learn a
>>common language. I don't really mind if that language is English, Polish,
>>French or whatever, it just happens to be that English is the most common
>>language.

In a way science pretty well has.  If I remember proberly, virtually all
major scientific pubs are translated and reviewed in english.



>Refer to my foreign languages letter.
>
>>If you are creating parts in different languages, that multiple groups will
>>be created, that have few contacts with each other.
>
>Possibly...
>
>But I really don't think that would happen. It would just allow foreign
>speaking people to actually read our site, and maybe we would attract
>some real genius from another country! Haven't you guys ever read.. um..
>oh man, I can't remember the name! It might be "Eon", but I don't think
>that's the book I'm talking about anyway. oh well
>
>Ben

Ben, do NOT translate my sections of LIT.  I have enough trouble with
people misenterpreting what I say.  I don't want the hassel of people
misinterpreting what others have enterpreted me to say.  This would be
especially frustrating since comments would come to me in languages I
couldn't understabd or respond to.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Mon Jul 15 15:02:53 GMT 1996
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	["1051" "Mon" "15" "July" "1996" "07:55:37" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "38" "Re: Bad E-mail  ALERT!" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@COMPUSERVE.COM, neill@foda.math.usu.edu,
        pbakelaar@exit109.com
Subject: Re: Bad E-mail  ALERT!
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 07:55:37 -0500

At 3:22 AM 7/13/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote:
>Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>>
>> At 8:52 PM 7/11/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote:
>> >Stephen Landry  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> no more messages sent here ok,,,tell allthe other list members
>> >
>> >Okay, will do. sorry about that.
>> >
>> >Hey guys, check your cc lists, and your address books.
>> >It looks like weve been mail bombing someone who is not interested.
>> >
>> >please remove MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU from this list.
>> >
>> >Kevin
>>
>> Wounder how he got Mike Lineskis account?
>>
>
>Think we oughta check with the sysop to verify that the account wasn't hacked?
>
>Kevin

Might try calling Mike.  If I remember.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Mon Jul 15 15:03:01 GMT 1996
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	["1184" "Mon" "15" "July" "1996" "09:34:23" "-0400" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "32" "RE: " "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: David Levine 
To: Philip Bakelaar ,
        "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'"
	 
Cc: Rex & Timothy ,
        "KellySt@aol.com"
	 ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" 
Cc: "rddesign@wolfenet.com" ,
        "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com" ,
        "DotarSojat@aol.com" ,
        "neill@foda.math.usu.edu" ,
        "101765.2200@compuserve.com" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" 
Subject: RE: 
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 09:34:23 -0400

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.  Contact your
mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a version
that supports MIME.

------ =_NextPart_000_01BB7230.CFC4F9D0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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>Ben, do NOT translate my sections of LIT.  I have enough trouble with
>people misenterpreting what I say.  I don't want the hassel of people
>misinterpreting what others have enterpreted me to say.  This would be
>especially frustrating since comments would come to me in languages I
>couldn't understabd or respond to.

I have to agree.  Unless translations are done by a native speaker (and
sometimes
even then), I'm wary of them.  I'm sure you've all received one of those
junk-emails
at one time or another with a list of all the product and slogan
mistranslations into
other languages....

And, of course, upon reading even a correctly translated document
(especially
a correct one), readers would assume they could email the author in that
language,
as Kelly says...



------ =_NextPart_000_01BB7230.CFC4F9D0--

From popserver Mon Jul 15 18:20:49 GMT 1996
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	["769" "Mon" "15" "July" "1996" "13:10:48" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "28" "Ocean stuff" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: Ocean stuff
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 13:10:48 -0500

Zenon
Do I remember correctly that you helped work up a web page on ocean cities?
Where are they, and what other ocean stuff do you recomend?

Rick
I know about you Flasher page.  Do you have any other wet subject pages
you'ld like to recomend?

Same for everyone else.  I'm working up an Index page for the LIT Marine
science and development page.  It would help if I at least had something to
point to.


Dave
Any ocean engineer pages?

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Mon Jul 15 22:29:23 GMT 1996
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	["907" "Mon" "15" "July" "1996" "18:26:18" "-0400" "Philip Bakelaar" "pbakelaar@exit109.com" nil "23" "RE: foreign mirrors" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: David Levine ,
        "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" 
Cc: Rex & Timothy ,
        "KellySt@aol.com" , "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" 
Subject: RE: foreign mirrors
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 18:26:18 -0400

At 09:34 AM 7/15/96 -0400, David Levine wrote:
>>Ben, do NOT translate my sections of LIT.  I have enough trouble with
>>people misenterpreting what I say.  I don't want the hassel of people
>>misinterpreting what others have enterpreted me to say.  This would be
>>especially frustrating since comments would come to me in languages I
>>couldn't understabd or respond to.
>
>I have to agree.  Unless translations are done by a native speaker (and
>sometimes
>even then), I'm wary of them.  I'm sure you've all received one of those
>junk-emails
>at one time or another with a list of all the product and slogan
>mistranslations into
>other languages....
>
>And, of course, upon reading even a correctly translated document
>(especially
>a correct one), readers would assume they could email the author in that
>language,
>as Kelly says...


Yup. Thats kewl. I started out doing it for practice anyway. :-)

From popserver Tue Jul 16 03:27:51 GMT 1996
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	["1283" "Tue" "16" "July" "1996" "01:30:43" "GMT" "Rex Lessa Timothy" "Lessa@worldnet.att.net" nil "27" "Re: RE: " "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: Rex & Timothy 
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, pbakelaar@exit109.com
Subject: Re: RE: 
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 01:30:43 GMT

Kelly wrote:

>P.S.
>By the way.  If someone wants to try to write up Tims relatavistic
>calculations as CGI aps that would be usefull.

Kelly why don't you just get a browser that supports Javascript?

I'm not sure if I like others to fumble with my creations, I'd need to be
sure they would be working correct and that I was able to change things.
Remember that if something is wrong or does not work, that people will come
to me asking for help (or complaining). Since only few sites allow
CGI-scripting, the possibilities for me to maintain anything like that are
small. If I'm right Dave's computer doesn't allow them, am I right there
David? (I didn't try it yet)

I won't force people getting newer browsers, and usually try to make
everything accessable for older browsers, but I think if people want more,
they should also do a little effort themselves in getting it.
I wonder how non-fill-out-form-browsers are able to sent some output to a
server to get back the answer. Well I could imagine that one would type an
URL with ?+5+and+zoom at the end, but that wouldn't make things easier.
So are CGI-scripts a solution here? Should I add ASCII-images because maybe
some browser don't show gif or jpg-images?
Really, in one year every browser has Java-script in it.

Timothy

From popserver Tue Jul 16 03:27:59 GMT 1996
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	["1388" "Mon" "15" "July" "1996" "22:04:58" "-0400" "Philip Bakelaar" "pbakelaar@exit109.com" nil "30" "Re: RE: " "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: Rex & Timothy , KellySt@aol.com,
        kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
Subject: Re: RE: 
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 22:04:58 -0400

At 01:30 AM 7/16/96 GMT, Rex & Timothy wrote:
>Kelly wrote:
>
>>P.S.
>>By the way.  If someone wants to try to write up Tims relatavistic
>>calculations as CGI aps that would be usefull.
>
>Kelly why don't you just get a browser that supports Javascript?
>
>I'm not sure if I like others to fumble with my creations, I'd need to be
>sure they would be working correct and that I was able to change things.
>Remember that if something is wrong or does not work, that people will come
>to me asking for help (or complaining). Since only few sites allow
>CGI-scripting, the possibilities for me to maintain anything like that are
>small. If I'm right Dave's computer doesn't allow them, am I right there
>David? (I didn't try it yet)
>
>I won't force people getting newer browsers, and usually try to make
>everything accessable for older browsers, but I think if people want more,
>they should also do a little effort themselves in getting it.
>I wonder how non-fill-out-form-browsers are able to sent some output to a
>server to get back the answer. Well I could imagine that one would type an
>URL with ?+5+and+zoom at the end, but that wouldn't make things easier.
>So are CGI-scripts a solution here? Should I add ASCII-images because maybe
>some browser don't show gif or jpg-images?
>Really, in one year every browser has Java-script in it.
>
>Timothy

Very, very good point, Tim! :)

From popserver Tue Jul 16 03:48:32 GMT 1996
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	["340" "Mon" "15" "July" "1996" "22:32:39" "-0700" "Kevin Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "10" "Re: CGI scripting " "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
To: Rex & Timothy 
CC: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, pbakelaar@exit109.com
Subject: Re: CGI scripting 
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 22:32:39 -0700

Rex & Timothy wrote:

> to me asking for help (or complaining). Since only few sites allow
> CGI-scripting, the possibilities for me to maintain anything like that are
> small. If I'm right Dave's computer doesn't allow them, am I right there
> David? (I didn't try it yet)

urly-bird.com will have cgi scripting capabilities.

Kevin

From popserver Tue Jul 16 15:17:52 GMT 1996
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	["648" "Tue" "16" "July" "1996" "14:29:16" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "23" "Re: Ocean stuff" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com
Subject: Re: Ocean stuff
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 96 14:29:16 +0200

> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Mon Jul 15 20:15:59 1996
> 
> Zenon
> Do I remember correctly that you helped work up a web page on ocean cities?
> Where are they, and what other ocean stuff do you recomend?
> 
The Atlantis Project (Oceania) is at:

  http://oceania.org/

It seems defunct since some time, but some interesting stuff
can be found there.

I am not particularly interested in "Ocean Stuff",
so I do not haveanything of more interest here.
You may also look at The Millenial Foundation InfoGuide:

  http://www.millennial.org/~jwills/InfoGuide

See also at Yahoo - they are probably the best 
for such a broad-theme searches.

-- Zenon

From popserver Tue Jul 16 15:17:54 GMT 1996
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric & Denisse Hedman)
Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39), stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, David@InterWorld.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: Re:
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:45:43 -0500

At 5:51 PM 7/15/96, Ric & Denisse Hedman wrote:
>>At 6:19 PM 7/12/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote:
>>>At 07:09 PM 7/12/96 GMT, Rex & Timothy wrote:
>>>>Hi Ben,
>>>>
>>>>I saw your spacepro.htm page, maybe you should add the formula's with the
>>>>fill-out form, it makes it easier for people to see what is actually
>>>calculated.
>>>
>>>Sure. I was actually planning on doing that tonite or tomorrow anyway!
>>
>Kelly---I think most folks have graphics and a Java won't hurt to be put
>in....it just shows up as a black square or such........new web brousers are
>hitting the streets daily that handle java.........I say we go for it...I
>know some "purests"stick with what they know but they are becoming the
>minority.....Netscape 2.0 or 3.0 are common....if you are a Microsoft
>Explorer user...tough luck .....they are too little too late......It's like
>using O/S2...good luck....
>
>I vote for best and latest........I have been concidering doing something of
>myown for LIT and it will have java...

Given that most current Web users and most of our probable audience
wouldn't have Java yet.  I'ld hold off using it for anything important.  A
decorative item is fine, but not something like the computer center
functions, where not having the cutting edge software would make the
functions useless.  It make no sence to dump commonly accessable functions,
for newer, flashier, usually non accessable functions.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Rex & Timothy 
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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Subject: Re: RE:
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:53:35 -0500

At 8:30 PM 7/15/96, Rex & Timothy wrote:
>Kelly wrote:
>
>>P.S.
>>By the way.  If someone wants to try to write up Tims relatavistic
>>calculations as CGI aps that would be usefull.
>
>Kelly why don't you just get a browser that supports Javascript?

I did order one and should be geting it soon, but I will be careful not to
use it for anything I submit to L.I.T.  Since I was interested in adding
the features in your equations to L.I.T. (assuming they work of course).
That would take a non Java version.

>I'm not sure if I like others to fumble with my creations, I'd need to be
>sure they would be working correct and that I was able to change things.
>Remember that if something is wrong or does not work, that people will come
>to me asking for help (or complaining). Since only few sites allow
>CGI-scripting, the possibilities for me to maintain anything like that are
>small. If I'm right Dave's computer doesn't allow them, am I right there
>David? (I didn't try it yet)
>
>I won't force people getting newer browsers, and usually try to make
>everything accessable for older browsers, but I think if people want more,
>they should also do a little effort themselves in getting it.
>I wonder how non-fill-out-form-browsers are able to sent some output to a
>server to get back the answer. Well I could imagine that one would type an
>URL with ?+5+and+zoom at the end, but that wouldn't make things easier.
>So are CGI-scripts a solution here? Should I add ASCII-images because maybe
>some browser don't show gif or jpg-images?
>Really, in one year every browser has Java-script in it.
>
>Timothy


In a year Java could be a forgotten fad, replaced with the next hot thing.
(Java server?)  In anyevent most browsers, and most users now don't have
it.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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	["934" "Tue" "16" "July" "1996" "07:55:54" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "28" "Re: CGI scripting" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
Cc: Rex & Timothy , KellySt@aol.com,
        kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, pbakelaar@exit109.com
Subject: Re: CGI scripting
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:55:54 -0500

At 10:32 PM 7/15/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote:
>Rex & Timothy wrote:
>
>> to me asking for help (or complaining). Since only few sites allow
>> CGI-scripting, the possibilities for me to maintain anything like that are
>> small. If I'm right Dave's computer doesn't allow them, am I right there
>> David? (I didn't try it yet)
>
>urly-bird.com will have cgi scripting capabilities.
>
>Kevin

So does SunSite of course, but a better question is what are the
differences in capabilities between Sunsite and URL-Bird?  I'E. what are
the advantages and disadvantages of one vs the other technically?

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com
Subject: Re: Ocean stuff
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:57:49 -0500

At 2:29 PM 7/16/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Mon Jul 15 20:15:59 1996
>>
>> Zenon
>> Do I remember correctly that you helped work up a web page on ocean cities?
>> Where are they, and what other ocean stuff do you recomend?
>>
>The Atlantis Project (Oceania) is at:
>
>  http://oceania.org/
>
>It seems defunct since some time, but some interesting stuff
>can be found there.
>
>I am not particularly interested in "Ocean Stuff",
>so I do not haveanything of more interest here.
>You may also look at The Millenial Foundation InfoGuide:
>
>  http://www.millennial.org/~jwills/InfoGuide
>
>See also at Yahoo - they are probably the best
>for such a broad-theme searches.
>
>-- Zenon

Ah, when I remembered you had helped put together the floating city thing I
thought you might have some recomendations.  No problem I'll search Yahoo
or something when I get the time.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Tue Jul 16 15:18:02 GMT 1996
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	["365" "Tue" "16" "July" "1996" "15:10:01" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "10" "Re: Ocean stuff" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
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        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com
Subject: Re: Ocean stuff
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 96 15:10:01 +0200

> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Tue Jul 16 15:02:21 1996
> 
> Ah, when I remembered you had helped put together the floating city thing I
> thought you might have some recomendations.  No problem I'll search Yahoo
> or something when I get the time.
> 
I was interested in the socio-political aspects,
not in the oceanic ("technical") part of the project.
 
-- Zenon

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com
Subject: Re: Ocean stuff
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 08:30:21 -0500

At 3:10 PM 7/16/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Tue Jul 16 15:02:21 1996
>>
>> Ah, when I remembered you had helped put together the floating city thing I
>> thought you might have some recomendations.  No problem I'll search Yahoo
>> or something when I get the time.
>>
>I was interested in the socio-political aspects,
>not in the oceanic ("technical") part of the project.
>
>-- Zenon

Hey any related topic with a good web link is fine by me.


Frankly I can't see what practical reason their would be to create a
floating city in mid ocean anyway (I have some debates about this with
people on the Millenium project).  But it is a interesting topic, and Dave
wanted a Marine sciences and development section.  So I'm looking for
interesting links to populate it.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Tue Jul 16 15:18:21 GMT 1996
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	["959" "Tue" "16" "July" "1996" "10:12:39" "-0400" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "22" "RE: RE: " "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: David Levine 
To: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com"
	 ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" 
To: "rddesign@wolfenet.com" ,
        "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com" ,
        "DotarSojat@aol.com" ,
        "neill@foda.math.usu.edu" ,
        "101765.2200@compuserve.com" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" 
To: "pbakelaar@exit109.com" ,
        "'Rex & Timothy'"
	 
Subject: RE: RE: 
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 10:12:39 -0400

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.  Contact your
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>to me asking for help (or complaining). Since only few sites allow
>CGI-scripting, the possibilities for me to maintain anything like that are
>small. If I'm right Dave's computer doesn't allow them, am I right there
>David? (I didn't try it yet)

My computer can do both CGI and ISAPI.  However, I'd have to do some
funky stuff to set it up to use CGI.  And, remember, the current plan
(although
we are considering some others) is to eventually put this stuff on SunSITE,
where CGI scripting is the norm.  SunSITE just moved to Apache, by the way.


------ =_NextPart_000_01BB72FF.52BFA960--

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Mime-Version: 1.0
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David Levine 
Cc: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com"		 ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" 
Subject: RE: RE:
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 09:25:38 -0500

At 10:12 AM 7/16/96, David Levine wrote:
>>to me asking for help (or complaining). Since only few sites allow
>>CGI-scripting, the possibilities for me to maintain anything like that are
>>small. If I'm right Dave's computer doesn't allow them, am I right there
>>David? (I didn't try it yet)
>
>My computer can do both CGI and ISAPI.  However, I'd have to do some
>funky stuff to set it up to use CGI.  And, remember, the current plan
>(although
>we are considering some others) is to eventually put this stuff on SunSITE,
>where CGI scripting is the norm.  SunSITE just moved to Apache, by the way.

Apache?

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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To: "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" ,
        "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'"
	 
Cc: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu"
	 ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" 
Cc: "rddesign@wolfenet.com" ,
        "lparker@destin.gulfnet.com" ,
        "DotarSojat@aol.com" ,
        "sl0c8@cc.usu.edu" ,
        "101765.2200@compuserve.com" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>,
        "neill@foda.math.usu.edu" 
Cc: "pbakelaar@exit109.com" 
Subject: RE: Ocean stuff
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 10:43:22 -0400

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.  Contact your
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>Frankly I can't see what practical reason their would be to create a
>floating city in mid ocean anyway (I have some debates about this with
>people on the Millenium project).  But it is a interesting topic, and Dave
>wanted a Marine sciences and development section.  So I'm looking for
>interesting links to populate it.

Heh - don't get me started on this one... I can give you a LOT of reasons.
Remember, you're talking to an ocean engineer by education.


------ =_NextPart_000_01BB7303.9D36EFE0--

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	["650" "Tue" "16" "July" "1996" "10:47:21" "-0400" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "22" "RE: RE:" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: David Levine 
To: "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" 
Cc: "KellySt@aol.com" , "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" 
Subject: RE: RE:
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 10:47:21 -0400

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>Apache?
>
>Kelly

The Internet Movie Database, the MIT AI Lab, Hotwired, and SunSITE (among
others) run on it.  It's web server software... the most popular - it runs
on 36%
of all web servers.

http://www.apache.org/ for more information.


------ =_NextPart_000_01BB7304.2B473150--

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David Levine 
Cc: "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" ,
        "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'"		 ,
        "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu"		 ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" 
Subject: RE: Ocean stuff
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 09:52:01 -0500

At 10:43 AM 7/16/96, David Levine wrote:
>>Frankly I can't see what practical reason their would be to create a
>>floating city in mid ocean anyway (I have some debates about this with
>>people on the Millenium project).  But it is a interesting topic, and Dave
>>wanted a Marine sciences and development section.  So I'm looking for
>>interesting links to populate it.
>
>Heh - don't get me started on this one... I can give you a LOT of reasons.
>Remember, you're talking to an ocean engineer by education.

Oh, forgot I hit reply all.  ;)

Actually I'ld be interested in your reasons.  Both out of curiosity and for
research for a future novel.

Hey a faq sheet would be good to!

Kelly

P.S.
Web links?


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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Mime-Version: 1.0
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David Levine 
Cc: "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" ,
        "KellySt@aol.com" , "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" 
Subject: RE: RE:
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 10:22:11 -0500

At 10:47 AM 7/16/96, David Levine wrote:
>>Apache?
>>
>>Kelly
>
>The Internet Movie Database, the MIT AI Lab, Hotwired, and SunSITE (among
>others) run on it.  It's web server software... the most popular - it runs
>on 36%
>of all web servers.
>
>http://www.apache.org/ for more information.

Ok, thanks.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Tue Jul 16 17:29:47 GMT 1996
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	["508" "Tue" "16" "July" "1996" "12:22:10" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "16" "Someone at GW modeled Larry Nivens Ringworld" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: Someone at GW modeled Larry Nivens Ringworld
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:22:10 -0500

Someone at GW modeled Larry Nivens Ringworld for a graphic imaging class.
Thought you might be interested.


http://www.seas.gwu.edu/graphics/ProcTexCourse/rootbear/ringworld/rw0.html


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Tue Jul 16 17:40:03 GMT 1996
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	["5042" "Tue" "16" "July" "1996" "12:31:24" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "142" "RE: A NASA starship study?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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Mime-Version: 1.0
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: RE: A NASA starship study?
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:31:24 -0500

FYI!

Kelly



>Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:30:15 -0500
>To:aholt@SSF4.jsc.nasa.gov (Holt, Al)
>From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
>Subject:RE: A NASA starship study?
>Cc:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39),
>aholt@SSF4.jsc.nasa.gov (Holt, Al)
>
>Sounds great, and very interesting.  Please keep me informed.  Also please
>CC my home account (kellyst@aol.com) so I don't lose something if my work
>account changes.  I'll forward info to our group.
>
>Kelly Starks
>
>
>At 12:12 PM 7/16/96, Holt, Al wrote:
>>Kelly,
>>
>>The Breakthrough Propulsion Physics group is in the start-up phase of
>>developing a research approach which would be successful in getting some
>>NASA funding for high risk (in some cases speculative ) research, focused
>>towards prototype testing.  Initial success is most likely going to come in
>>ways of reducing or biasing the effects of gravitational fields on a
>>vehicle. However, we are also exploring concepts and physics for
>>faster-than-light travel as well. A workshop in 1997 will formally start the
>>research task selection process. I'll to get back to you later - I just
>>returned from vacation.
>>
>>Al Holt
>> ----------
>>From: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39
>>To: Holt, Al
>>Cc: Kelly Starks AOL account
>>Subject: A NASA starship study?
>>Date: Monday, July 08, 1996 12:11PM
>>
>>>Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 09:35:49 -0700
>>>From: Jack Sarfatti 
>>>Reply-To: sarfatti@well.com
>>>Organization: Internet Science Education Project
>>>Mime-Version: 1.0
>>>To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
>>>Subject: Re: Question
>>>
>>>Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>>>>
>>>> When I was last scaning through the usenet groups for info on new ideas
>>on
>>>> starships.  I ran across the below listed post.  Who is Al Holt and what
>>is
>>>> his NASA Star Ship Visionary Project?
>>>
>>>Yes this is a new project. Write to aholt@ssf4.jsc.nasa.gov
>>
>>Al,
>>I stumbled across the above reference.  I was naturally surprized to hear
>>NASA is looking into starship ideas.  When I was working at NASA HQ (yes I
>>was one of the laid off) people in the office of space access tech thought
>>the idea that SSTO would revolutionize space markets was questionable to
>>laughable.  Things farther future then that (moon bases ect..) were out of
>>the question for decades at least.  So the idea someone at NASA is looking
>>into the idea of starships was surprizing to say the least.
>>
>>Anyway, please send me what info you can about this.  If its on the web
>>I'll cross link to it on out groups (a starship design groups) web page.
>>I'm authoring new parts for a L.I.T. starship design project Web site (No
>>we're not a SF or startrek group.  Yes we're serious.), and would like to
>>know what new info is avalible.
>>
>>The old site is at:
>>
>>Http://sunsite.unc.edu/lunar/index.html
>>
>>or
>>
>>Http://sunsite.unc.edu/lunar/sdhp.html
>>
>>The new (DEVELOPMENT!) version is at:
>>
>>http://165.254.130.90/LIT/InterStellar/project/
>>
>>But were having a bit of trouble with it.  The frame maps aren't working
>>but the standard (duplicate) pointers farther down are working.
>>
>>
>>Thanks for your time
>>
>>
>>Kelly Starks
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
>>Sr. Systems Engineer
>>Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
>>(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
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>>To: aholt@ssf4.jsc.nasa.gov
>>From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
>>Subject: A NASA starship study?
>>Cc: kellyst@aol.com  (Kelly Starks AOL account)
>


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Tue Jul 16 22:39:02 GMT 1996
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	["775" "Tue" "16" "July" "1996" "18:13:43" "-0400" "Philip Bakelaar" "pbakelaar@exit109.com" nil "14" "RE: Ocean stuff" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: David Levine ,
        "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" ,
        "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" 
Cc: "KellySt@aol.com" ,
        "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" ,
        "stevev@efn.org" ,
        "jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu" ,
        "zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl" 
Subject: RE: Ocean stuff
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 18:13:43 -0400

At 10:43 AM 7/16/96 -0400, David Levine wrote:
>>Frankly I can't see what practical reason their would be to create a
>>floating city in mid ocean anyway (I have some debates about this with
>>people on the Millenium project).  But it is a interesting topic, and Dave
>>wanted a Marine sciences and development section.  So I'm looking for
>>interesting links to populate it.
>
>Heh - don't get me started on this one... I can give you a LOT of reasons.
>Remember, you're talking to an ocean engineer by education.

Wow! I read that book about a year ago and I learned alot from it!
And David, you are an ocean engineer by education? I would be
interested to know what that entails (the education, the job
market). I imagine its not 2 good, but still I would like to know...

From popserver Thu Jul 18 15:49:48 GMT 1996
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	["5749" "Thu" "18" "July" "1996" "08:23:42" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "98" "Dilbert metric" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com
Subject: Dilbert metric
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 08:23:42 -0500

New Metric

API Austin - First there were software metrics.  With these, software
developers and their management could finally measure something for the
output of the software creation process.  In the 80's these techniques
flourished.  Funny names for these measurements emerged, like "McCabe
complexity" and "software volume."  Soon it was realized that there needed
to be a way not only to measure the quality of the software output, but
also to measure the quality of the engineering organization itself.  The
Capability Maturity Model, CMM was developed in the early 90's.
Organizations are audited by professionals and rated on a scale of 1 to 5.
Low scores mean the software production process is chaotic, while 5 means
that all aspects of software development are fully understood and carefully
applied, all but assuring a quality product every time.  Sadly, most
software organizations today weigh in at a meager 1, there's a surprising
number of 0's out there.  Now, a revolutionary new measurement technique
has been developed by a small startup consulting firm in Austin, Texas.
The new system is known simply as DCF.  The simplicity and elegance of the
new measuring system belies its power in accurately judging the soundness
of a software organization.  The inventor of DCF and founder of the
DiCoFact Foundation, Matt Sejnowski, says the new measurement system is
"simple and fool-proof, but modifications are being made to make it
management-proof as well."
One Sunday morning Matt was performing his normal ritual of reading the
most important parts of the newspaper first, when he came across his
favorite comic strip, "Dilbert," by Scott Adams.  Matt and his work
colleagues loved this comic strip and were amazed by how many of the silly
storylines reminded them of actual incidences at their company.  They even
suspected that Scott Adams was working there in disguise, or at least that
there was a spy in the company feeding Scott daily cartoon ideas.  Matt
suddenly had the flash of genius inspiration that promised to make him
millions: The Dilbert Correlation Factor (DCF).
Take 100 random Dilbert comic strips and present them in a survey to all
your engineering personnel.  Include both engineers and management.  Each
person reads the strips, and puts a check mark on each strip that reminds
him of how his company operates.  Collect all surveys and count the check
marks.  This gives you your Dilbert Correlation Factor, which can range, of
course, from 0% to 100%. Average out the engineers' scores.  Throw out the
managers' surveys; we just have them do the survey to make them feel
important.  However, if many of them scowl during the survey, add up to 5
points to the DCF (in technical terms, this is your Management Dissing
Fudge Factor, MDFF.)  Make sure to also throw out surveys of engineers that
laugh uncontrollably during the whole survey.  Remember their names for
subsequent counseling.  And that's all there is to it!  Oh, yeah, then walk
around the building and count Dilbert cartoons on the walls. Don't forget
coffee bars, bulletin boards, office doors and of course, bathrooms.  Add
up to 10 points for this Dilbert Density Coefficient Adjustment (DDCA).

Interpreting the results is simple.  Let's look at some ranges:

0% - 25%: You probably have a quality software organization.  However, you
guys need to lighten up!  Maybe a few surprise random layoffs, or perhaps
initiating a Quality Improvement Program, will do the trick to boost your
company's DCF to a healthier level.

26% - 50%: This is also a sign of a good software organization, and is
nearly ideal.  You still manage to get a quality product out, and yet you
still have some of the fun that only Dilbert lovers can identify with...
Mandatory membership in social committees, endless e-mail debates about the
right acronyms to use for company products, and of course detailed weekly
status reports where everyone lists "did status report" on accomplishments.


51% to 75%: This is the most typical DCF level for software houses today.
Your software products are often in jeopardy due to the Dilbert-like
environment they are produced in.  You have a nice healthy dose of routine
mismanagement, senseless endless meetings with no conclusions,
miscommunications at all levels of the organization, and arbitrary
commitments made to customers which send engineers into cataplexy.

76% to 100%: The best advice for this organization is this: get the hell
out of the software business.  Hire the best cartoonist you can afford,
have him join your project teams and document what he sees in comic
strips...get `em syndicated and you'll make a fortune!

Matt has applied for a patent on his unique DCF system.  He is anxious to
become a high-priced consultant, going to lots of companies, doing his
survey, getting the fee, and getting out before management realizes they've
been ripped off and have to hire another high-priced consultant to come in
and set things right.  Matt reports, "I'm thinking about a do-it-yourself
version for the future, too.  I'd put Dilbert cartoons on little cards so
they can be passed out to the engineers in the survey...I'll probably call
it `Deal-a-Dilbert'.  I'm also thinking about a simple measurement system
that lets employees find out their personality type and where they best fit
into the organization.  I call this the `Dilbert-Dogbert Empathy Factor' or
DDEF for short."



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        mkshp@ionet.net (Brian V. Mansur)
Subject: Fwd: Brian is BACK!
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 09:10:30 -0500

>Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 00:45:33 -0400
>From: KellySt@aol.com
>To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
>Subject: Fwd: Brian is BACK!
>
>
>---------------------
>Forwarded message:
>From:	mkshp@ionet.net (Michael Shipp)
>To:	KellyST@aol.com
>CC:	hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, david@interworld.com
>Date: 96-07-17 00:20:42 EDT
>
>>From Brian V. Mansur
>LIT Member # something or other
>Starship Design Project
>
>I'm back!  Yea, I can tell you're all wetting your pants with
>excitement :)  Don't worry, there won't be any more avalanches of
>e-mail for a while.  That's because I'm working out of a friend's computer
>and so the e-mail has his name, of course.  By the way, whoever gets
>this, could you please forward it to the other members of the
>discussion group and I need you current e-mail adresses again.  Also,
>if anyone has time, I'd love to be filled in on what has been going
>on in the discussion group these last few months.  Sorry for the
>inconvenience.
>
>Remember that Argosy design that I promised.  Still in the works.
>Right now I have 14 or so pages worth of text.  Don't let that make
>you think its really worth anything, but then you never know.  I'm
>now toying with changing the name of the paper because the paper
>describes more than just a starship.  It describes an entire
>interstellar transportation system that I think from henceforth shall
>be known as the Tradewinds.  The starship remains the Argosy-class
>and now there is an unmanned probe/seeder component called the
>Pathfinder (an overused name that I'll change if something more
>inspiring occurs to me).
>
>Basically, you guys are going to hate the whole set up.  I'm saying
>that because it takes about two hundred years to get the Tradewinds up and
>running from its 1996 conception date (just in time for the 23rd
>century).  The Design Overview is as follows:
>
>The Tradeswinds are basically two power/maser arrays set
>up at the origin and destinations of the manned starship.  For
>propulsion, the starship uses the photon pressure of the electron masers
>bouncing off of a hundreds of kilometers wide ultra-thin sail.  By the
>way, electron lasers were described in the July or August Discovery
>Magazine: read all about them.  They are still hard to make but they
>are 50% efficient or so.
>
>Because the Tradewinds assume a technological presence at the
>destination, the mission of exploration is secondary.  The new goal
>here is interstellar colonization.  I know that isn't what the LIT
>charter calls for.  But as I explain in the Tradewinds paper, none of
>the propulsion designs detailed in the Starflight Handbook have any hope
>of carrying a crew to another starsystem in their life-time, to say nothing
>about bringing them home.  What the designs in the Handbook can do is
>send a robotic Pathfinder seeder probe of a few thousand tons.  It will set
>up
>an Automated Robotic Civilization (ARC) that will eventually grow into a
>maser array that can stop the manned Argosy-class starships that
>ferry colonists from Sol.  Nifty huh?  It may be a slow thing to
>establish, but it has a real chance of working.  Yea, I know you guys
>want a fast ship, fast mission, fast food starship that will get us
>to Tau Ceti and back in 22 years Earth time.  But as I explain in the
>Tradewinds paper, I really think this idea is our best hope.
>
>As said, most of what you have just read is old news.  But when you
>finally get the Tradewinds paper, it be DETAILED old news.  This  is good,
>I think if we are trying to give some basic starship designs to future
>generations that can refine them and use their spanking new technology to
>make them into something that they will fly.
>
>By the way.  I'll only be able to answer whenever I can get back to
>my friend's terminal.  So don't expect quick answers.  I'll try to
>hurry up and finish the Tradewinds paper.  I have two more days off
>work which is a little bit of time.  Finally, I go back to school  in
>about six weeks, so that's all the time I have until Christmas.
>Sorry, but I just won't have the time for Starship Design in school.
>I didn't earlier this year when I first joined the discussion group
>but, hea, at least it was fun.
>
>Live long through relativistic space travel.
>
>In Christ,
>Mike
>http://www-origins.uoknor.edu/~mshipp/welcome.htm
>


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        mkshp@ionet.net (Brian V. Mansur)
Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Brian is BACK!
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 09:20:15 -0500

Hi Brian,
Welcome back, for a while.

I sent another message with attached file of the last couples of months of
messages.  For a brief summary.

Kevin is offering to rehost LIT onto his new server (hes trying to start a
web service busness).  He's hoping to make lit self funding through on line
advertizing, but we should offer to help with some start up funds.  So far
little comment from anyone.

I'm still working to refurb the old LIT site, and hope to have everything
all dressed up and ready to upload in a months or so.  So please send what
you have of your Argosey or tradwinds system.  Which name do you prefer?

I stumbled across a NASA group also trying to speculate on possible
starship designs.

Various discusions of starship stuff.
I pretty well finished the Explorer design, Tim and others helped with some
more detailed fuel mass numbers and other tech stuff.  Given the equipment
it could get up to a 1/3rd c cruise.  More interesting I came up with a new
idea I'm calling fuel-sail.

The fusion driven Explorer was limited by the need to accelerate and
decelerate with on board fuel, or accelerate close to Sol where the fuel
launcher can refuel the ship as it consumes acceleration fuel.  The
microwave driven ships can accelerate, but not slow down.  I thought of
mixing the two.

I use Lithium as the fusion reactor fuel, but to accelerate out of sol I
spread it out into a huge microwave sail (lithium is a structural metal).
Since the vast bulk of the weight is spread out in the sail, its a more
efficent sail system.  As soon as the ship approaches cruise speed; the
sail is pulled back in, melted and cast into a heavy cylindrical fuel plug
in the frount of the ship.  As the ship approaches the starsystem it mounts
the fusion motors on the frount of the fuel and starts the deceleration
burn.  As fuel is cut out of the fuel slug and burned.  The ships hab and
system section will be shifted forward as the fuel is consumed from
underneath it.  Since it doesn't need to accelerate and decelerate as
rapidly as an Explorer class.  It can have a higher fuel ratio, and
decelerate from higher cruise speeds.  Possibly as high as 40%+ of light
speed!

Can't think of much else in detail, so on to your letter.







>---------------------
>>From Brian V. Mansur
>LIT Member # something or other
>Starship Design Project
>
>I'm back!  Yea, I can tell you're all wetting your pants with
>excitement :)  Don't worry, there won't be any more avalanches of
>e-mail for a while.  That's because I'm working out of a friend's computer
>and so the e-mail has his name, of course.  By the way, whoever gets
>this, could you please forward it to the other members of the
>discussion group and I need you current e-mail adresses again.  Also,
>if anyone has time, I'd love to be filled in on what has been going
>on in the discussion group these last few months.  Sorry for the
>inconvenience.

All the other current members are in the mailing list on this letter.
Since you've gone some have left, and we gained one or two.  You new guys
know who you are, so introduce yourself!

>Remember that Argosy design that I promised.  Still in the works.
>Right now I have 14 or so pages worth of text.  Don't let that make
>you think its really worth anything, but then you never know.  I'm
>now toying with changing the name of the paper because the paper
>describes more than just a starship.  It describes an entire
>interstellar transportation system that I think from henceforth shall
>be known as the Tradewinds.  The starship remains the Argosy-class
>and now there is an unmanned probe/seeder component called the
>Pathfinder (an overused name that I'll change if something more
>inspiring occurs to me).

Send it and I'll load it in the web site.  Rough or not its more involved
then a lot of concepts I've seen published.  We can add a large banor
listing it as in work, and help you work up the details.


>Basically, you guys are going to hate the whole set up.  I'm saying
>that because it takes about two hundred years to get the Tradewinds up and
>running from its 1996 conception date (just in time for the 23rd
>century).  The Design Overview is as follows:

This does sound strange.  Whats the point?  Microwave sail technology is
going to look pretty antiquated in a century.  By two I'ld expect something
far more exotic.  Sounds like it couldn't be implemented in time for it to
be of any value?  Then again, maybe we can figure out a way to speed up the
implementation time.  I can't see anything that would take 200 years to
implement.


>The Tradeswinds are basically two power/maser arrays set
>up at the origin and destinations of the manned starship.  For
>propulsion, the starship uses the photon pressure of the electron masers
>bouncing off of a hundreds of kilometers wide ultra-thin sail.  By the
>way, electron lasers were described in the July or August Discovery
>Magazine: read all about them.  They are still hard to make but they
>are 50% efficient or so.
>
>Because the Tradewinds assume a technological presence at the
>destination, the mission of exploration is secondary.  The new goal
>here is interstellar colonization.  I know that isn't what the LIT
>charter calls for.  But as I explain in the Tradewinds paper, none of
>the propulsion designs detailed in the Starflight Handbook have any hope
>of carrying a crew to another starsystem in their life-time, to say nothing
>about bringing them home.  What the designs in the Handbook can do is
>send a robotic Pathfinder seeder probe of a few thousand tons.  It will set
>up
>an Automated Robotic Civilization (ARC) that will eventually grow into a
>maser array that can stop the manned Argosy-class starships that
>ferry colonists from Sol.  Nifty huh?  It may be a slow thing to
>establish, but it has a real chance of working.  Yea, I know you guys
>want a fast ship, fast mission, fast food starship that will get us
>to Tau Ceti and back in 22 years Earth time.  But as I explain in the
>Tradewinds paper, I really think this idea is our best hope.

I'ld agree that near lightspeed craft are unrealistic, but why 200years?
Also the reason we wern't talking much about a colonization concept, is we
couldn't think of any way to make a colony self suficent, or a realist
reason of why people would do, much less patfor, a colony.


>As said, most of what you have just read is old news.  But when you
>finally get the Tradewinds paper, it be DETAILED old news.  This  is good,
>I think if we are trying to give some basic starship designs to future
>generations that can refine them and use their spanking new technology to
>make them into something that they will fly.

Send what you can now.  Rough concepts out now, are better then polished
ideas in a year.


>By the way.  I'll only be able to answer whenever I can get back to
>my friend's terminal.  So don't expect quick answers.  I'll try to
>hurry up and finish the Tradewinds paper.  I have two more days off
>work which is a little bit of time.  Finally, I go back to school  in
>about six weeks, so that's all the time I have until Christmas.
>Sorry, but I just won't have the time for Starship Design in school.
>I didn't earlier this year when I first joined the discussion group
>but, hea, at least it was fun.
>
>Live long through relativistic space travel.
>
>In Christ,
>Mike
>http://www-origins.uoknor.edu/~mshipp/welcome.htm


Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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	["1102" "Thu" "18" "July" "1996" "17:00:12" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "23" "Re: Fwd: Brian is BACK!" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: Fwd: Brian is BACK!
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 96 17:00:12 +0200

> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Thu Jul 18 16:46:12 1996
> Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 09:20:15 -0500
> To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
>         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
>         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
>         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
>         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
>         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
>         mkshp@ionet.net (Brian V. Mansur)
> From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
> Subject: Re: Fwd: Brian is BACK!
> 
> All the other current members are in the mailing list on this letter.
> Since you've gone some have left, and we gained one or two.  You new guys
> know who you are, so introduce yourself!
> 
Hey, hey - where did you lose our latest member, Ben Bakelaar?
Add him:  too!
And you stil have in your list above the address of a guy
who complained of getting irrelevant mail and asked to drop him out
some time ago: .

-- Zenon

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: Fwd: Brian is BACK!
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 10:17:00 -0500

At 5:00 PM 7/18/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Thu Jul 18 16:46:12 1996
>> Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 09:20:15 -0500
>> To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
>>         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
>>         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
>>         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
>>         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
>>         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
>>         mkshp@ionet.net (Brian V. Mansur)
>> From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
>> Subject: Re: Fwd: Brian is BACK!
>>
>> All the other current members are in the mailing list on this letter.
>> Since you've gone some have left, and we gained one or two.  You new guys
>> know who you are, so introduce yourself!
>>
>Hey, hey - where did you lose our latest member, Ben Bakelaar?
>Add him:  too!
>And you stil have in your list above the address of a guy
>who complained of getting irrelevant mail and asked to drop him out
>some time ago: .
>
>-- Zenon


Woah!  How'd that happen?

Correcting.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Thu Jul 18 15:50:44 GMT 1996
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	["1564" "Thu" "18" "July" "1996" "10:19:27" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "41" "Re: Fwd: Brian is BACK!" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: Fwd: Brian is BACK!
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 10:19:27 -0500

At 5:00 PM 7/18/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Thu Jul 18 16:46:12 1996
>> Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 09:20:15 -0500
>> To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
>>         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
>>         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
>>         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
>>         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
>>         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
>>         mkshp@ionet.net (Brian V. Mansur)
>> From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
>> Subject: Re: Fwd: Brian is BACK!
>>
>> All the other current members are in the mailing list on this letter.
>> Since you've gone some have left, and we gained one or two.  You new guys
>> know who you are, so introduce yourself!
>>
>Hey, hey - where did you lose our latest member, Ben Bakelaar?
>Add him:  too!
>And you stil have in your list above the address of a guy
>who complained of getting irrelevant mail and asked to drop him out
>some time ago: .
>
>-- Zenon

Woah!  Must have lost the corrections when my system crashed?

Sorry!

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Thu Jul 18 22:30:26 GMT 1996
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	["685" "Thu" "18" "July" "1996" "22:25:58" "GMT" "Rex Lessa Timothy" "Lessa@worldnet.att.net" nil "16" "Still Javascript" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: Rex & Timothy 
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, pbakelaar@exit109.com
Subject: Still Javascript
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 22:25:58 GMT

Kelly wrote:

>I did order one and should be geting it soon, but I will be careful not to
>use it for anything I submit to L.I.T.  Since I was interested in adding
>the features in your equations to L.I.T. (assuming they work of course).
>That would take a non Java version.

Of course it works, I tested it myself, there may be a few small bugs in it,
but the main thing works.

>In a year Java could be a forgotten fad, replaced with the next hot thing.
>(Java server?)  In anyevent most browsers, and most users now don't have
>it.

The next hot thing could only be a better scripting language, I doubt if it
would be worth the effort (Java still has some expansion possibilities).

From popserver Thu Jul 18 22:45:41 GMT 1996
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	["1535" "Thu" "18" "July" "1996" "18:40:34" "-0400" "Philip Bakelaar" "pbakelaar@exit109.com" nil "34" "Re: Still Javascript" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: Rex & Timothy , KellySt@aol.com,
        kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
Subject: Re: Still Javascript
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 18:40:34 -0400

At 10:25 PM 7/18/96 GMT, Rex & Timothy wrote:
>Kelly wrote:
>
>>I did order one and should be geting it soon, but I will be careful not to
>>use it for anything I submit to L.I.T.  Since I was interested in adding
>>the features in your equations to L.I.T. (assuming they work of course).
>>That would take a non Java version.
>
>Of course it works, I tested it myself, there may be a few small bugs in it,
>but the main thing works.
>
>>In a year Java could be a forgotten fad, replaced with the next hot thing.
>>(Java server?)  In anyevent most browsers, and most users now don't have
>>it.
>
>The next hot thing could only be a better scripting language, I doubt if it
>would be worth the effort (Java still has some expansion possibilities).

If anyone actually keeps up with their computer news, they would know that
all the major companies (encompassing IBM, Microsoft, Apple and/or Macintosh,
and all the other big names) have a deal with Sun where JavaChips will be
installed in all new releases starting at a future date. (I can't remember
what.) Now, even though companies are bound to make mistakes, I don't think
that the biggest names in computing are going to invest millions in a
"passing fad". Then again, I could be wrong, but I sincerely doubt that,
given the evidence on my side. :)

DOES anyone here keep up with computer news? I mean, I know you guys are
busy and all, but lemme know if you like want me to tell you or 
anything. I realize most of you use computers every day, but stil..
its just an offer.

Ben


From popserver Thu Jul 18 22:45:42 GMT 1996
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	["1282" "Thu" "18" "July" "1996" "18:41:51" "-0400" "Philip Bakelaar" "pbakelaar@exit109.com" nil "29" "Re: Fwd: Brian is BACK!" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa), KellySt@aol.com,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: Fwd: Brian is BACK!
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 18:41:51 -0400

At 05:00 PM 7/18/96 +0200, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Thu Jul 18 16:46:12 1996
>> Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 09:20:15 -0500
>> To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
>>         T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
>>         jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
>>         rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
>>         lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
>>         MLEN3097@Mercury.GC.PeachNet.EDU, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
>>         mkshp@ionet.net (Brian V. Mansur)
>> From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
>> Subject: Re: Fwd: Brian is BACK!
>> 
>> All the other current members are in the mailing list on this letter.
>> Since you've gone some have left, and we gained one or two.  You new guys
>> know who you are, so introduce yourself!
>> 
>Hey, hey - where did you lose our latest member, Ben Bakelaar?
>Add him:  too!
>And you stil have in your list above the address of a guy
>who complained of getting irrelevant mail and asked to drop him out
>some time ago: .
>
>-- Zenon

Thanx for sticking up for me, Zenon! At least I know I have *one*
friend among the ranks. :) (jk, guys!)

Ben

From popserver Fri Jul 19 02:39:12 GMT 1996
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	["2022" "Thu" "18" "July" "1996" "17:43:49" "-0700" "Ric Rddesign Denisse Hedman" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" nil "44" "Re: Still Javascript" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric & Denisse Hedman)
To: Philip Bakelaar 
Cc: stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        David@InterWorld.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: Re: Still Javascript
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 17:43:49 -0700 (PDT)

>At 10:25 PM 7/18/96 GMT, Rex & Timothy wrote:
>>Kelly wrote:
>>
>>>I did order one and should be geting it soon, but I will be careful not to
>>>use it for anything I submit to L.I.T.  Since I was interested in adding
>>>the features in your equations to L.I.T. (assuming they work of course).
>>>That would take a non Java version.
>>
>>Of course it works, I tested it myself, there may be a few small bugs in it,
>>but the main thing works.
>>
>>>In a year Java could be a forgotten fad, replaced with the next hot thing.
>>>(Java server?)  In anyevent most browsers, and most users now don't have
>>>it.
>>
>>The next hot thing could only be a better scripting language, I doubt if it
>>would be worth the effort (Java still has some expansion possibilities).
>
>If anyone actually keeps up with their computer news, they would know that
>all the major companies (encompassing IBM, Microsoft, Apple and/or Macintosh,
>and all the other big names) have a deal with Sun where JavaChips will be
>installed in all new releases starting at a future date. (I can't remember
>what.) Now, even though companies are bound to make mistakes, I don't think
>that the biggest names in computing are going to invest millions in a
>"passing fad". Then again, I could be wrong, but I sincerely doubt that,
>given the evidence on my side. :)
>
>DOES anyone here keep up with computer news? I mean, I know you guys are
>busy and all, but lemme know if you like want me to tell you or 
>anything. I realize most of you use computers every day, but stil..
>its just an offer.
>
>Ben
.............................................................................
.............................................................................
.........
Ben;
I try to keep up we take about 3 different weekly computer mags and I'm
prowling in the net all the time.....
I'm really into web pages at the moment and looking for a job change to
accomidate that..

Ric
Visit RD Designs Home Page at:..http://www.wolfenet.com/~rddesign/Rddesign.htm

From popserver Fri Jul 19 02:39:18 GMT 1996
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	["528" "Thu" "18" "July" "1996" "21:02:55" "-0400" "Philip Bakelaar" "pbakelaar@exit109.com" nil "15" "Re: Still Javascript" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric & Denisse Hedman)
Cc: stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, David@InterWorld.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: Re: Still Javascript
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 21:02:55 -0400

At 05:43 PM 7/18/96 -0700, Ric & Denisse Hedman wrote:
>Ben;
>I try to keep up we take about 3 different weekly computer mags and I'm
>prowling in the net all the time.....
>I'm really into web pages at the moment and looking for a job change to
>accomidate that..
>
>Ric
>Visit RD Designs Home Page at:..http://www.wolfenet.com/~rddesign/Rddesign.htm

Well, thats quite an interesting business. Im just wondering, is it a very
specialized market? Like, do you know all your customers personally, or is
it a big business? 

Ben

From popserver Fri Jul 19 15:48:02 GMT 1996
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	["1334" "Fri" "19" "July" "1996" "08:31:52" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "38" "Re: Still Javascript" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Rex & Timothy 
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, pbakelaar@exit109.com
Subject: Re: Still Javascript
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 08:31:52 -0500

At 5:25 PM 7/18/96, Rex & Timothy wrote:
>Kelly wrote:
>
>>I did order one and should be geting it soon, but I will be careful not to
>>use it for anything I submit to L.I.T.  Since I was interested in adding
>>the features in your equations to L.I.T. (assuming they work of course).
>>That would take a non Java version.
>
>Of course it works, I tested it myself, there may be a few small bugs in it,
>but the main thing works.

Such inocence.  ;)  Software always has bugs, and you have been known to
make mistakes Tim.


>>In a year Java could be a forgotten fad, replaced with the next hot thing.
>>(Java server?)  In anyevent most browsers, and most users now don't have
>>it.
>
>The next hot thing could only be a better scripting language, I doubt if it
>would be worth the effort (Java still has some expansion possibilities).

People used to say the same thing about DOS, and P.C.s are much more mature
then the web.  At this point nothings so basic about the web that we can be
sure about it.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Fri Jul 19 15:48:04 GMT 1996
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	["2128" "Fri" "19" "July" "1996" "08:33:59" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "51" "Re: Still Javascript" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Philip Bakelaar 
Cc: Rex & Timothy , KellySt@aol.com,
        kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
Subject: Re: Still Javascript
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 08:33:59 -0500

At 6:40 PM 7/18/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote:
>At 10:25 PM 7/18/96 GMT, Rex & Timothy wrote:
>>Kelly wrote:
>>
>>>I did order one and should be geting it soon, but I will be careful not to
>>>use it for anything I submit to L.I.T.  Since I was interested in adding
>>>the features in your equations to L.I.T. (assuming they work of course).
>>>That would take a non Java version.
>>
>>Of course it works, I tested it myself, there may be a few small bugs in it,
>>but the main thing works.
>>
>>>In a year Java could be a forgotten fad, replaced with the next hot thing.
>>>(Java server?)  In anyevent most browsers, and most users now don't have
>>>it.
>>
>>The next hot thing could only be a better scripting language, I doubt if it
>>would be worth the effort (Java still has some expansion possibilities).
>
>If anyone actually keeps up with their computer news, they would know that
>all the major companies (encompassing IBM, Microsoft, Apple and/or Macintosh,
>and all the other big names) have a deal with Sun where JavaChips will be
>installed in all new releases starting at a future date. (I can't remember
>what.) Now, even though companies are bound to make mistakes, I don't think
>that the biggest names in computing are going to invest millions in a
>"passing fad". Then again, I could be wrong, but I sincerely doubt that,
>given the evidence on my side. :)
>
>DOES anyone here keep up with computer news? I mean, I know you guys are
>busy and all, but lemme know if you like want me to tell you or
>anything. I realize most of you use computers every day, but stil..
>its just an offer.
>
>Ben

I am a senior computer systems engineer, but since I moved to Indiana most
of my journals have stoped coming regularly.  (Maybe its a sign?)  So yeah
if you have an tidbits pass them on.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
CC: Rex & Timothy , KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, pbakelaar@exit109.com
Subject: Re: Still Javascript
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 08:57:51 -0700

Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
> 
> At 5:25 PM 7/18/96, Rex & Timothy wrote:
> >The next hot thing could only be a better scripting language, I doubt if it
> >would be worth the effort (Java still has some expansion possibilities).
> 
> People used to say the same thing about DOS, and P.C.s are much more mature
> then the web.  At this point nothings so basic about the web that we can be
> sure about it.
> 
> Kelly

Hmm, I wonder.  First of all, all DOS programs still work on any PC.  Second, 
Windows 95 (the latest operating system from microsoft) still has a DOS base 
it's hidden and concealed, but it's there just the same.  I suppose the same 
thing will happen to Java, it will be old and worn out, but it will still be 
compatable with Netscape 5.0

-- 
Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html

Every time a third party candidate comes up, both major parties say:
"You can't vote for him, you'll just be handing the election to the other guy"
Well, Democrat and Republican are just two different names for the same thief, 
So what does it really matter?  This time I'm voting Libertarian.
Harry Browne for President.  http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/   (800) 682-1776

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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
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        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: New WWW link
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 96 16:31:32 +0200

Add to LIT links the following one:

  http://www.obspm.fr/departement/darc/planets/encycl.html
  Extrasolar Planets Encyclopaedia

-- Zenon

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: New WWW link
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 09:41:10 -0500

Will do.

You know between our two lists we are burying LIT's lib in usefull web
links!  :)

Kelly

At 4:31 PM 7/19/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>Add to LIT links the following one:
>
>  http://www.obspm.fr/departement/darc/planets/encycl.html
>  Extrasolar Planets Encyclopaedia
>
>-- Zenon


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Fri Jul 19 15:48:39 GMT 1996
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	["1472" "Fri" "19" "July" "1996" "10:21:22" "-0700" "Kevin Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "30" "Re: New WWW link" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
CC: Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu,
        pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: New WWW link
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 10:21:22 -0700

> Zenon Wrote:
> >Add to LIT links the following one:
> >
> >  http://www.obspm.fr/departement/darc/planets/encycl.html
> >  Extrasolar Planets Encyclopaedia
> >
> >-- Zenon

I followed the link you gave Zenon, and found a more graphics intensive page.
http://www.empire.net/~whatmoug/Extrasolar/extrasolar_visions.html

It takes a while to load, but I think it's worth it.  it gives a better description
of the pervailing conditions on each planet.  Perhaps we could switch our target
to one of the Jupiter sized worlds orbiting in a water zone.  a high-speed flyby
mission could return a lot of information.  we'd know the Orbital inclination, so we 
could do a polar fly-over.

I wonder what such a probe would reveal about earth?  Assuming a .4 C fly-by and a
favorable position (ie earth is seen from a distance equal to 60 to 120 degrees of 
earth's orbit.) would a standard set of spectrographic instruments be able to detect
Oxygen or Carbon Dioxide?  Would a wide band radio reciever be able to detect our
television or satellite transmissions?  Would a good night-side photo show the 
rivers and seas of light that populate the north-american continet?

In other words, if some other world sent a probe here,what is the minimum sensitivity
required for it to return useful data? (ie. that the third rock from the sun is a 
life-bearing world)  Follow-up question, do we have the required technology?

-- 
Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, neill@foda.math.usu.edu,
        pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: New WWW link
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 10:52:08 -0500

At 10:21 AM 7/19/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote:
>> Zenon Wrote:
>> >Add to LIT links the following one:
>> >
>> >  http://www.obspm.fr/departement/darc/planets/encycl.html
>> >  Extrasolar Planets Encyclopaedia
>> >
>> >-- Zenon
>
>I followed the link you gave Zenon, and found a more graphics intensive page.
>http://www.empire.net/~whatmoug/Extrasolar/extrasolar_visions.html
>
>It takes a while to load, but I think it's worth it.  it gives a better
>description
>of the pervailing conditions on each planet.  Perhaps we could switch our
>target
>to one of the Jupiter sized worlds orbiting in a water zone.  a high-speed
>flyby
>mission could return a lot of information.  we'd know the Orbital
>inclination, so we
>could do a polar fly-over.
>
>I wonder what such a probe would reveal about earth?  Assuming a .4 C
>fly-by and a
>favorable position (ie earth is seen from a distance equal to 60 to 120
>degrees of
>earth's orbit.) would a standard set of spectrographic instruments be able
>to detect
>Oxygen or Carbon Dioxide?  Would a wide band radio reciever be able to
>detect our
>television or satellite transmissions?  Would a good night-side photo show the
>rivers and seas of light that populate the north-american continet?
>
>In other words, if some other world sent a probe here,what is the minimum
>sensitivity
>required for it to return useful data? (ie. that the third rock from the
>sun is a
>life-bearing world)  Follow-up question, do we have the required technology?
>
>--
>Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html


I know we don't show up that well in the day visually.  But with a big
enough scope you can resolve down to any res you want.  We have designs
(well concepts) that could resolve objects down to a couple meters from a
few light years away.  The geometric structures of our roads, fields, and
agraculture would be a dead give away.  The geometric pattern of city
street lights, and trafic flows, at night would be an incredibly obvious
hint!!

In the radio and EM bands we are VERY bright.  We outshine the sun in some
EM bands.  Personally as an ET I'ld be a little suspicious of a planet
where whole continents were syncronized with a 60 cycle per secound hum
(I.E. our power grid).  I have no idea what the transmition rating for the
power grid is, but I'm sure you could detect it a few light years away.

The question isn't could they see us, but how closely would they be
looking.  We have no official programs looking, and few private ones.  Then
again, we'ld be pretty hard to overlook at close range!

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Fri Jul 19 16:44:17 GMT 1996
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	["3521" "Fri" "19" "July" "1996" "11:31:14" "-0700" "Kevin Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "76" "Earth's intrinsic glow." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
CC: Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Earth's intrinsic glow.
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 11:31:14 -0700

Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
> 
> At 10:21 AM 7/19/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote:
> >I wonder what such a probe would reveal about earth?  Assuming a .4 C
> >fly-by and a
> >favorable position (ie earth is seen from a distance equal to 60 to 120
> >degrees of
> >earth's orbit.) would a standard set of spectrographic instruments be able
> >to detect
> >Oxygen or Carbon Dioxide?  Would a wide band radio reciever be able to
> >detect our
> >television or satellite transmissions?  Would a good night-side photo show the
> >rivers and seas of light that populate the north-american continet?
> >
> >In other words, if some other world sent a probe here,what is the minimum
> >sensitivity
> >required for it to return useful data? (ie. that the third rock from the
> >sun is a
> >life-bearing world)  Follow-up question, do we have the required technology?
> >
> >--
> >Kevin "Tex" Houston    http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html
> 
> I know we don't show up that well in the day visually.  But with a big
> enough scope you can resolve down to any res you want.  We have designs
> (well concepts) that could resolve objects down to a couple meters from a
> few light years away.  The geometric structures of our roads, fields, and

Okay, but could you do it on the fly (at .4C) and keep it small enough to 
be an easy sale to the politicians (you've seen how horrendously expensive
interstellar flight can be.) and could you have a wide enough field of vision
to detecty something you didn't know was there to start with


> agraculture would be a dead give away.  The geometric pattern of city
> street lights, and trafic flows, at night would be an incredibly obvious
> hint!!

So what's the smallest cammera you could get away with to spot this from 
1 AU away?

> 
> In the radio and EM bands we are VERY bright.  We outshine the sun in some
> EM bands.  Personally as an ET I'ld be a little suspicious of a planet

But that's only because the sun doesn't shine in those bands. how far away is 
our power grid visible?  I'd think spillage from a sattelite uplink would be
more visible than leakage from a power grid over light years, if only due to 
there being a tighter beam from the up-link.

> where whole continents were syncronized with a 60 cycle per secound hum
> (I.E. our power grid).  I have no idea what the transmition rating for the
> power grid is, but I'm sure you could detect it a few light years away.

I don't know about that, you might be able to chalk it up to some strange rock
formation that's re-radiating sunlight with some kind of storage ability to 
account for nighttime transmissions.  Kind of like glow-in the dark minerals
that can stay lit for hours after the light is out.

> 
> The question isn't could they see us, but how closely would they be
> looking.  We have no official programs looking, and few private ones.  Then
> again, we'ld be pretty hard to overlook at close range!
> 

The real question is "how big a system do we need to spot non-intelligent life
in a system we know nothing about at a decent fraction of the speed of light."

-- 
Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html

Every time a third party candidate comes up, both major parties say:
"You can't vote for him, you'll just be handing the election to the other guy"
Well, Democrat and Republican are just two different names for the same thief, 
So what does it really matter?  This time I'm voting Libertarian.
Harry Browne for President.  http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/   (800) 682-1776

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: Earth's intrinsic glow.
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 13:08:24 -0500

At 11:31 AM 7/19/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote:
>Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>>
>> At 10:21 AM 7/19/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote:
>> >I wonder what such a probe would reveal about earth?  Assuming a .4 C
>> >fly-by and a
>> >favorable position (ie earth is seen from a distance equal to 60 to 120
>> >degrees of
>> >earth's orbit.) would a standard set of spectrographic instruments be able
>> >to detect
>> >Oxygen or Carbon Dioxide?  Would a wide band radio reciever be able to
>> >detect our
>> >television or satellite transmissions?  Would a good night-side photo
>>show the
>> >rivers and seas of light that populate the north-american continet?
>> >
>> >In other words, if some other world sent a probe here,what is the minimum
>> >sensitivity
>> >required for it to return useful data? (ie. that the third rock from the
>> >sun is a
>> >life-bearing world)  Follow-up question, do we have the required technology?
>> >
>> >--
>> >Kevin "Tex" Houston    http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html
>>
>> I know we don't show up that well in the day visually.  But with a big
>> enough scope you can resolve down to any res you want.  We have designs
>> (well concepts) that could resolve objects down to a couple meters from a
>> few light years away.  The geometric structures of our roads, fields, and
>
>Okay, but could you do it on the fly (at .4C) and keep it small enough to
>be an easy sale to the politicians (you've seen how horrendously expensive
>interstellar flight can be.) and could you have a wide enough field of vision
>to detecty something you didn't know was there to start with

You miss the point.  You could do it from here, to anywhere you'ld want to
go to at .4c.  They are currently trying to propose it to our gov for NASA
to implement.  (No news as of yet.  Concepts probably still being worked
out.)


>> agraculture would be a dead give away.  The geometric pattern of city
>> street lights, and trafic flows, at night would be an incredibly obvious
>> hint!!
>
>So what's the smallest cammera you could get away with to spot this from
>1 AU away?

Don't know, but to spot it from 10 light years it would need an efective
apiture of a couple hundred miles or so.



>> In the radio and EM bands we are VERY bright.  We outshine the sun in some
>> EM bands.  Personally as an ET I'ld be a little suspicious of a planet
>
>But that's only because the sun doesn't shine in those bands. how far away is
>our power grid visible?  I'd think spillage from a sattelite uplink would be
>more visible than leakage from a power grid over light years, if only due to
>there being a tighter beam from the up-link.

That only helps if your in the narrower beam.  Don't know about distences.
Probably at least a couple hundred light years.  (Your taking about a lot
of power.)

>> where whole continents were syncronized with a 60 cycle per secound hum
>> (I.E. our power grid).  I have no idea what the transmition rating for the
>> power grid is, but I'm sure you could detect it a few light years away.
>
>I don't know about that, you might be able to chalk it up to some strange rock
>formation that's re-radiating sunlight with some kind of storage ability to
>account for nighttime transmissions.  Kind of like glow-in the dark minerals
>that can stay lit for hours after the light is out.

You probably would, but you'ld also want to aim a scope at us to make sure.

>> The question isn't could they see us, but how closely would they be
>> looking.  We have no official programs looking, and few private ones.  Then
>> again, we'ld be pretty hard to overlook at close range!
>>
>
>The real question is "how big a system do we need to spot non-intelligent life
>in a system we know nothing about at a decent fraction of the speed of light."

Non-intelegent?  From here, with a big enough scope (couple hundred miles)
and time to watch trends no problem.  There, in orbit, with a couple meter
lens no problem.  Blowing through at .4c, BIG problem.  I'm not sure it
could be done.  Well I suppose you could rig out a wire mesh a few hundred
miles across with scopes on the mesh, and watch it as you approach.  And
again later after you left.  You can't look at close aproach to anything
because it would be sliding to the side of your view.  Assuming you wern't
going to crash into it of course. ;)


>--
>Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html
>
>Every time a third party candidate comes up, both major parties say:
>"You can't vote for him, you'll just be handing the election to the other guy"
>Well, Democrat and Republican are just two different names for the same thief,
>So what does it really matter?  This time I'm voting Libertarian.
>Harry Browne for President.  http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/   (800) 682-1776

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Fri Jul 19 23:19:38 GMT 1996
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	["2657" "Fri" "19" "July" "1996" "18:11:26" "-0500" "L. Parker" "lparker@gnt.net" nil "63" "SSRT: DC-XA flight was postponed" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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To: jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, David ,
        hous0042 , KellySt ,
        rddesign , Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
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Subject: SSRT: DC-XA flight was postponed
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 18:11:26 -0500

>Return-Path: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu
>From: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu (Chris W. Johnson)
>To: "Single Stage Rocket Technology News" 
>Subject: SSRT: DC-XA flight was postponed
>Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 20:19:08 -0600
>Sender: listserv@zimbazi.cc.utexas.edu
>X-listname: 
>
>
>----------
>
>
>From: farmer@cyberramp.net (WylieC)
>Newsgroups: sci.space.tech
>Subject: Re: July 12th DC-XA Flight ???
>Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 05:32:27 GMT
>Organization: CyberRamp.net, Dallas, TX (214) 340-2020/(817) 226-2020 for info
>Lines: 36
>
>farmer@cyberramp.net (WylieC) wrote:
>
>>Does anybody know the situation with the DC-XA?   It was supposed to
>>fly July 12th.  Has it been rescheduled?   Problems?
>>                                             WylieC
>>                                             farmer@cyberramp.net
>
>Found the answer to my own question  credit goes to
>http://www.flatoday.com/today/index.htm
>                                                  WylieC
>                                                  farmer@cyberramp.net
>
>CLIPPER GRAHAM FLIGHT POSTPONED
>
>WHITE SANDS MISSILE RANGE, N.M. - Today's test flight of the Clipper
>Graham reusable launch vehicle was postponed due to lack of winds.
>Winds of 3 to 5 knots are  needed to prevent the accumulation of
>hydrogen fuel vapors near the base of the  43-foot-high experimental
>rocket.
>
>Earlier in the day, a malfunction in the flight computer was detected.
>The computer was replaced, new software was loaded and checked out,
>and the vehicle was ready for flight within 65 minutes, demonstrating
>airline-like operations.
>
>Because flight time on the missile range is not available tomorrow or
>next week, the auxiliary propulsion system (APS) for the experimental
>rocket will be reinstalled, tested and readied for next flight. The
>APS converts liquid hydrogen from the fuel tank into a gas which is
>used as fuel for the Clipper Graham's reaction control thrusters and
>an auxiliary power unit. The thrusters are used to control the
>cone-shaped vehicle's roll attitude. The APS also includes a composite
>feedline and shutoff valve.
>
>Flight testing of the Clipper Graham will resume later this month.
>
>
>
>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From popserver Sun Jul 21 19:18:42 GMT 1996
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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39),
        "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Space questions...
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 10:33:07 -0400

I have a question... isn't one of the big issues in the
space world how in the usa there are all safety restrictions
placed on space flight, and so that makes it impossible for
space development and research to be done by private
corporations (or at least non-profitable.. maybe not impossible)?

i have more questions if i am right.

thanx
ben

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Philip Bakelaar 
Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39),
        "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: Space questions...
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 07:59:01 -0500

At 10:33 AM 7/21/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote:
>I have a question... isn't one of the big issues in the
>space world how in the usa there are all safety restrictions
>placed on space flight, and so that makes it impossible for
>space development and research to be done by private
>corporations (or at least non-profitable.. maybe not impossible)?
>
>i have more questions if i am right.
>
>thanx
>ben


Currently their are legal restrictions.  For example the FAA hasn't figured
out how to lisence a space craft, and the feds haven't set liability
limitations for space craft accidents like they did for aircraft.  So you
could wind up being unable to get a launch permit, or get sued to death by
hungry lawyers if you have an accident.

Past that the United Nations has been tring to claim space as their
property, and refuse to let others profit in space.  The U.S. state
department has traditionally not cared much, but usually have been forced
by public presure (usually the L-5 society) to not sign.  For example at
the moment the state department is reluctant to bother protesting a U.N.
treaty being worked on that would effectivly outlaw nuclear poer system in
space.  That ofcourse would eliminate the possibility of missions past
Mars, or manned missions past the moon.  Or lunar bases for that mater.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39),
        "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: Space questions...
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 09:21:30 -0400

At 07:59 AM 7/22/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>Currently their are legal restrictions.  For example the FAA hasn't figured
>out how to lisence a space craft, and the feds haven't set liability
>limitations for space craft accidents like they did for aircraft.  So you
>could wind up being unable to get a launch permit, or get sued to death by
>hungry lawyers if you have an accident.
>
>Past that the United Nations has been tring to claim space as their
>property, and refuse to let others profit in space.  The U.S. state
>department has traditionally not cared much, but usually have been forced
>by public presure (usually the L-5 society) to not sign.  For example at
>the moment the state department is reluctant to bother protesting a U.N.
>treaty being worked on that would effectivly outlaw nuclear poer system in
>space.  That ofcourse would eliminate the possibility of missions past
>Mars, or manned missions past the moon.  Or lunar bases for that mater.
>
>Kelly

The UN claims space is *theirs*?!?!?! OH my GOD, i can't believe that.
I mean, how could they think that? How could the US not care? How could
the UN...? Guys, fill me in here. Is the US govmn't *really* stupid,
or is the UN *really* stupid, or is the public *really* stupid.. 
(actually, as far as I'm concerned, they all are, but im asking who's
 fault is it that this is happening?)

OK.. well, i won't complain much, because I could complain ALOT about
this. My next question is... (hypothetical situation)

  what if, say, our group (LIT) bought an island from Liberia, who doesnt
  have any space laws at all, and could care less.. would we be able to
  build a spaceport and spaceships and launch from that island?
  (disregard material needs for now, im talking about the law)


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Philip Bakelaar 
Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39),
        "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: Space questions...
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 08:42:20 -0500

At 9:21 AM 7/22/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote:
>At 07:59 AM 7/22/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>>Currently their are legal restrictions.  For example the FAA hasn't figured
>>out how to lisence a space craft, and the feds haven't set liability
>>limitations for space craft accidents like they did for aircraft.  So you
>>could wind up being unable to get a launch permit, or get sued to death by
>>hungry lawyers if you have an accident.
>>
>>Past that the United Nations has been tring to claim space as their
>>property, and refuse to let others profit in space.  The U.S. state
>>department has traditionally not cared much, but usually have been forced
>>by public presure (usually the L-5 society) to not sign.  For example at
>>the moment the state department is reluctant to bother protesting a U.N.
>>treaty being worked on that would effectivly outlaw nuclear poer system in
>>space.  That ofcourse would eliminate the possibility of missions past
>>Mars, or manned missions past the moon.  Or lunar bases for that mater.
>>
>>Kelly
>
>The UN claims space is *theirs*?!?!?! OH my GOD, i can't believe that.
>I mean, how could they think that? How could the US not care? How could
>the UN...? Guys, fill me in here. Is the US govmn't *really* stupid,
>or is the UN *really* stupid, or is the public *really* stupid..
>(actually, as far as I'm concerned, they all are, but im asking who's
> fault is it that this is happening?)

The U.N. is largely composed of third world nations (their are more of them
then us) who generally have a socialist attitude.  They largly drafted
whats called the space treaty (which the U.S. has refused to sign, thou
Clinton did make some moves to reverse that policy).  Said treaty roughly
states that space is the common heritage of all mankind, and as a common
heritage no one person, group, or state can own or take profit from any
part of any planet, moon, orbit, or inter planetary transfer orbit.  Any
attemp to use space must be done by an international body that distributes
all profits equaly to all nations regardless of the participation in space
by that state.

This is similar to the language of the Law of the sea treaty we did sign,
which promptly ended all attempts at deap sea minnig or colonization.

Why doesn't the state department care?  They are politicians.  They deal
with interactions between countries.  Not anoying internationals over
something as trivial (to them) as space, seems foolish.  After all, we
don't do much in space (yet) and its of no immediate economic impact.  So
to a treaty crafter, its  obviously less important then something really
big, like international relations.


>OK.. well, i won't complain much, because I could complain ALOT about
>this. My next question is... (hypothetical situation)
>
>  what if, say, our group (LIT) bought an island from Liberia, who doesnt
>  have any space laws at all, and could care less.. would we be able to
>  build a spaceport and spaceships and launch from that island?
>  (disregard material needs for now, im talking about the law)

Legally the U.S. has never signed the treaty so its not a problem.  If they
had signed, and wished to enforce it, they could prevent U.S. firms from
exporting high tech launcher systems to the non conforming country you
wanted to launch out of.


Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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        "'KellySt@aol.com'"
	 ,
        "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'"
	 ,
        "'stevev@efn.org'" ,
        "'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'" ,
        "'zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl'" 
To: "'hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu'" ,
        "'rddesign@wolfenet.com'" ,
        "'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" ,
        "'DotarSojat@aol.com'" ,
        "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'" ,
        "'101765.2200@compuserve.com'" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>
To: "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"
	 ,
        "'Philip Bakelaar'"
	 
Subject: RE: Still Javascript
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 10:13:04 -0400

>DOES anyone here keep up with computer news? I mean, I know you guys
>are
>busy and all, but lemme know if you like want me to tell you or 
>anything. I realize most of you use computers every day, but stil..
>its just an offer.

I'm part of that annoying computer/internet/java/www/etc industry.  Yuk!

David

>
>

From popserver Mon Jul 22 15:24:34 GMT 1996
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From: David Levine 
To: "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" ,
        "'Philip Bakelaar'"
	 
Cc: "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" ,
        "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'" ,
        "'Zenon Kulpa'" ,
        "'KellySt@aol.com'" ,
        "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'" ,
        "'stevev@efn.org'" 
Cc: "'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'" ,
        "'rddesign@wolfenet.com'" ,
        "'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" ,
        "'DotarSojat@aol.com'" ,
        "'sl0c8@cc.usu.edu'" ,
        "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'" 
Cc: "'mkshp@ionet.net'" 
Subject: RE: Space questions...
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 10:18:57 -0400

>  what if, say, our group (LIT) bought an island from Liberia, who
>doesnt
>  have any space laws at all, and could care less.. would we be able to
>  build a spaceport and spaceships and launch from that island?
>  (disregard material needs for now, im talking about the law)

Isn't this kind of the idea behind (among other projects) the Millenial
Project?

David

>
>

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David Levine 
Cc: "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" ,
        "'Philip Bakelaar'"		 ,
        "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'" ,
        "'Zenon Kulpa'" ,
        "'KellySt@aol.com'" ,
        "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'" ,
        "'stevev@efn.org'" 
Subject: RE: Space questions...
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 09:32:46 -0500

At 10:18 AM 7/22/96, David Levine wrote:
>>  what if, say, our group (LIT) bought an island from Liberia, who
>>doesnt
>>  have any space laws at all, and could care less.. would we be able to
>>  build a spaceport and spaceships and launch from that island?
>>  (disregard material needs for now, im talking about the law)
>
>Isn't this kind of the idea behind (among other projects) the Millenial
>Project?
>
>David

No, no, no.  Ben wanted to buy and island to avoid legal problems.  They
want to build and island as an exercise in selfsuficency.  Entirely
different.  ;)

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39),
        David Levine 
Cc: "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" ,
        "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'" ,
        "'Zenon Kulpa'" ,
        "'KellySt@aol.com'" ,
        "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'" ,
        "'stevev@efn.org'" 
Subject: RE: Space questions...
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 18:24:11 -0400

At 09:32 AM 7/22/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>At 10:18 AM 7/22/96, David Levine wrote:
>>>  what if, say, our group (LIT) bought an island from Liberia, who
>>>doesnt
>>>  have any space laws at all, and could care less.. would we be able to
>>>  build a spaceport and spaceships and launch from that island?
>>>  (disregard material needs for now, im talking about the law)
>>
>>Isn't this kind of the idea behind (among other projects) the Millenial
>>Project?
>>
>>David
>
>No, no, no.  Ben wanted to buy and island to avoid legal problems.  They
>want to build and island as an exercise in selfsuficency.  Entirely
>different.  ;)
>
>Kelly


Thanx for saving me, Kelly. I didn't know what to say to David, because
I didn't really know what David was talking about. But yes, David,
that was what I meant. To avoid legal problems.

So, David, exactly what are you in the (yuk!) business? :P

From popserver Tue Jul 23 05:49:09 GMT 1996
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	["3260" "Mon" "22" "July" "1996" "22:10:05" "-0700" "Kevin Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "56" "Re: Space questions..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
CC: Philip Bakelaar , Zenon Kulpa ,
        KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@WOLFENET.COM, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET
Subject: Re: Space questions...
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 22:10:05 -0700

Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
> 
> At 9:21 AM 7/22/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote:
> >The UN claims space is *theirs*?!?!?! OH my GOD, i can't believe that.
> >I mean, how could they think that? How could the US not care? How could
> >the UN...? Guys, fill me in here. Is the US govmn't *really* stupid,
> >or is the UN *really* stupid, or is the public *really* stupid..
> >(actually, as far as I'm concerned, they all are, but im asking who's
> > fault is it that this is happening?)
> 
> The U.N. is largely composed of third world nations (their are more of them
> then us) who generally have a socialist attitude.  They largly drafted
> whats called the space treaty (which the U.S. has refused to sign, thou
> Clinton did make some moves to reverse that policy).  Said treaty roughly
> states that space is the common heritage of all mankind, and as a common
> heritage no one person, group, or state can own or take profit from any
> part of any planet, moon, orbit, or inter planetary transfer orbit.  Any
> attemp to use space must be done by an international body that distributes
> all profits equaly to all nations regardless of the participation in space
> by that state.

Kelly, I'm not sure that Socalist leanings are the real reason for the third
world nations' wanting the space treaty.  It seems to me that the more important
reason, is that they are currently unable to participate in any commercial 
exploitation, and want to stall the more developed countries from gaining an
unbreakable foothold.  At least until they (the third world) can be in a position 
to catch up.

> >  what if, say, our group (LIT) bought an island from Liberia, who doesnt
> >  have any space laws at all, and could care less.. would we be able to
> >  build a spaceport and spaceships and launch from that island?
> >  (disregard material needs for now, im talking about the law)

This might work Ben, but Liberia is the wrong place for this.  It is on the west
side of an ocean.  A better place (for safety reasons) would be brazil, or somewhere
around VietNam (ie near the equator on the eastern rim of an ocean.) A company
involved in commercial space flights (for sattelites) was trying to launch out of
french guianna (sp) but they found out that the local infrastructure was so bad
that it was worth the loss of a boost from earth's rotation just to have access
to Nasa's launch facilities and tracking stations etc.

But back to legal issues.  Your idea would work only until the local government
figured out that you were making money (or at least, you were spending so much that 
a few percent for taxes would hurt)  Then they would hold some space law over your 
head.  Or worse, they would just nationalize the launch facility, and put you in jail
for espionage, drugs, or violations of some obscure religious code.


-- 
Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html

Every time a third party candidate comes up, both major parties say:
"You can't vote for him, you'll just be handing the election to the other guy"
Well, Democrat and Republican are just two different names for the same thief, 
So what does it really matter?  This time I'm voting Libertarian.
Harry Browne for President.  http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/   (800) 682-1776

From popserver Tue Jul 23 05:49:13 GMT 1996
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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
Cc: Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@WOLFENET.COM, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET
Subject: How to become an astronaut?
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 23:42:49 -0400

Hey guys, I have a friend who is serious about wanting to
be an astronaut. I'm just wondering what you guys suggest
she should do to have a good chance? Like, does she *need*
to go to NASA camp? What about grades? Health requirements
(like 20/20 vison)?

Thanx for any and all info
Ben

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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
Cc: Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@WOLFENET.COM, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET
Subject: Re: Space questions...
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 23:41:10 -0400

At 10:10 PM 7/22/96 -0700, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote:
>Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>> The U.N. is largely composed of third world nations (their are more of them
>> then us) who generally have a socialist attitude.  They largly drafted
>> whats called the space treaty (which the U.S. has refused to sign, thou
>> Clinton did make some moves to reverse that policy).  Said treaty roughly
>> states that space is the common heritage of all mankind, and as a common
>> heritage no one person, group, or state can own or take profit from any
>> part of any planet, moon, orbit, or inter planetary transfer orbit.  Any
>> attemp to use space must be done by an international body that distributes
>> all profits equaly to all nations regardless of the participation in space
>> by that state.
>
>Kelly, I'm not sure that Socalist leanings are the real reason for the third
>world nations' wanting the space treaty.  It seems to me that the more
important
>reason, is that they are currently unable to participate in any commercial 
>exploitation, and want to stall the more developed countries from gaining an
>unbreakable foothold.  At least until they (the third world) can be in a
position 
>to catch up.

That just isn't fair. Isn't there anything anybody can do?

>This might work Ben, but Liberia is the wrong place for this.  It is on the
west
>side of an ocean.  A better place (for safety reasons) would be brazil, or
somewhere
>around VietNam (ie near the equator on the eastern rim of an ocean.) A company
>involved in commercial space flights (for sattelites) was trying to launch
out of
>french guianna (sp) but they found out that the local infrastructure was so bad
>that it was worth the loss of a boost from earth's rotation just to have access
>to Nasa's launch facilities and tracking stations etc.

Oh.. the only reason I said Liberia was that I heard many companies, especially
oil companies, like do stuff through Liberia cuz there are no restrictions. Did
I hear right?

>But back to legal issues.  Your idea would work only until the local government
>figured out that you were making money (or at least, you were spending so
much that 
>a few percent for taxes would hurt)  Then they would hold some space law
over your 
>head.  Or worse, they would just nationalize the launch facility, and put
you in jail
>for espionage, drugs, or violations of some obscure religious code.

So there's really nowhere on Earth where someone/some group could do private r&d
as well as launching?

From popserver Tue Jul 23 05:49:25 GMT 1996
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	["1285" "Mon" "22" "July" "1996" "22:53:00" "-0600" "Brandon Neill" "neill@math.usu.edu" nil "26" "Re: How to become an astronaut?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: Brandon Neill 
To: Philip Bakelaar 
cc: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@WOLFENET.COM, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET
Subject: Re: How to become an astronaut?
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 22:53:00 -0600 (MDT)

On Mon, 22 Jul 1996, Philip Bakelaar wrote:

> Hey guys, I have a friend who is serious about wanting to
> be an astronaut. I'm just wondering what you guys suggest
> she should do to have a good chance? Like, does she *need*
> to go to NASA camp? What about grades? Health requirements
> (like 20/20 vison)?
There are two different types of Astronaut, military (pilot etc.) and
scientific.  Unless she want's to spend several years in the military
first, science is the way to go.  I recently read an article about what it
takes to be an astronaut, unfortunatly I don't remember where or much
about what it said, I will try and find it tho.  I do remember they said
that having a private pilots license was a plus.  The article was probably
in Ad Astra or Popular Science... I would imagine good vision is required
for the pilots.  (you can't wear contacts or eyeglasses to fly a jet) but
not necessary for the scientist (I know I've seen some with glasses).
However, the new surgeries for vision are an automatic red flag.  They
don't know how the eye will hold up under stress. Naturally being in shape
and good grades are a definate plus too.


Brandon Neill 
-------------
neill@foda.math.usu.edu           "I think therefore I am dangerous" 
http://ashton.lib.dixie.edu/~bneill


From popserver Tue Jul 23 05:49:30 GMT 1996
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From: Brandon Neill 
To: Philip Bakelaar 
cc: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@WOLFENET.COM, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET
Subject: Re: Space questions...
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 22:59:06 -0600 (MDT)

On Mon, 22 Jul 1996, Philip Bakelaar wrote:
> That just isn't fair. Isn't there anything anybody can do?
I won't even comment on that line...

> 
> 
> So there's really nowhere on Earth where someone/some group could do private r&d
> as well as launching?

How about international waters?  Expenses would be higher, but it might be
feasable (I don't know about the legalities tho)  Also I've heard or read
that even if you conduct business overseas if you are an american citizen,
american laws still hold sway over you.  I believe that will cause a
problem with regulations as well.
Brandon Neill 
-------------
neill@foda.math.usu.edu           "I think therefore I am dangerous" 
http://ashton.lib.dixie.edu/~bneill


From popserver Tue Jul 23 05:49:31 GMT 1996
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	nil)
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From: Brandon Neill 
To: Philip Bakelaar 
cc: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@WOLFENET.COM, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET
Subject: minor stuff...
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 23:04:47 -0600 (MDT)

Hello,
I've been reading this group for quite a while now and have recently
started conversing in it too.  I was just wondering if anyone has thought
about creating a mailing list for this group.  It would make filing and
stuff like that a lot easier as everything would come from the same
address,  it would also facilitate automatic archiving if desired.  I
would assume that someone has a server that listserv or something could be
run on.  

Brandon Neill
-------------
neill@foda.math.usu.edu           "I think therefore I am dangerous" 
http://ashton.lib.dixie.edu/~bneill


From popserver Tue Jul 23 06:09:56 GMT 1996
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	["1429" "Mon" "22" "July" "1996" "23:02:28" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "30" "minor stuff..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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In-Reply-To: 
References: <199607230341.XAA05831@hiway1.exit109.com>
	
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: Brandon Neill 
Cc: Philip Bakelaar ,
        "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@WOLFENET.COM, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET
Subject: minor stuff...
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 23:02:28 -0700

Brandon Neill writes:
 > Hello,
 > I've been reading this group for quite a while now and have recently
 > started conversing in it too.  I was just wondering if anyone has thought
 > about creating a mailing list for this group.  It would make filing and
 > stuff like that a lot easier as everything would come from the same
 > address,  it would also facilitate automatic archiving if desired.  I
 > would assume that someone has a server that listserv or something could be
 > run on.  
 > 
 > Brandon Neill
 > -------------
 > neill@foda.math.usu.edu           "I think therefore I am dangerous" 
 > http://ashton.lib.dixie.edu/~bneill

Actually, I have been thinking about offering this very service.  I have
at least two permanently-connected machines I would be able to run such
a list from (jcomm.uoregon.edu and hexadecimal.uoregon.edu), and this
list is small enough and low enough in traffic that I could even run the
list manually.

If people are interested I could create a list on my work machine,
hexadecimal.uoregon.edu with all the current names.  I think the only
question is what we'd want to call the list -- mini-lit?
starship-design?

I wouldn't attach any strings to hosting the list, and I would honor any
subscription or unsubscription requests sent to the list-request or
owner-list addresses.  If I get ambitious I could probably even create
a digest version in addition to the simple mail reflector.

From popserver Tue Jul 23 14:37:20 GMT 1996
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	["963" "Tue" "23" "July" "1996" "07:34:21" "-0400" "Philip Bakelaar" "pbakelaar@exit109.com" nil "19" "Re: minor stuff..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: Steve VanDevender , Brandon Neill 
Cc: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@WOLFENET.COM, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET
Subject: Re: minor stuff...
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 07:34:21 -0400

At 11:02 PM 7/22/96 -0700, Steve VanDevender wrote:
>Actually, I have been thinking about offering this very service.  I have
>at least two permanently-connected machines I would be able to run such
>a list from (jcomm.uoregon.edu and hexadecimal.uoregon.edu), and this
>list is small enough and low enough in traffic that I could even run the
>list manually.
>
>If people are interested I could create a list on my work machine,
>hexadecimal.uoregon.edu with all the current names.  I think the only
>question is what we'd want to call the list -- mini-lit?
>starship-design?
>
>I wouldn't attach any strings to hosting the list, and I would honor any
>subscription or unsubscription requests sent to the list-request or
>owner-list addresses.  If I get ambitious I could probably even create
>a digest version in addition to the simple mail reflector.

I like it! That would make mailing so much easier. The name... how
about LIT-Core or Core-LIT or something?

From popserver Tue Jul 23 14:37:22 GMT 1996
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	["3413" "Tue" "23" "July" "1996" "06:27:46" "-0700" "Kevin Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" "<31F4D352.4F12@maroon.tc.umn.edu>" "64" "Re: minor stuff..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
To: Steve VanDevender 
CC: Brandon Neill ,
        Philip Bakelaar ,
        Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET
Subject: Re: minor stuff...
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 06:27:46 -0700

Steve VanDevender wrote:
> 
> Brandon Neill writes:
>  > Hello,
>  > I've been reading this group for quite a while now and have recently
>  > started conversing in it too.  I was just wondering if anyone has thought
>  > about creating a mailing list for this group.  It would make filing and
>  > stuff like that a lot easier as everything would come from the same
>  > address,  it would also facilitate automatic archiving if desired.  I
>  > would assume that someone has a server that listserv or something could be
>  > run on.
>  >
>  > Brandon Neill
> 
> Actually, I have been thinking about offering this very service.  I have
> at least two permanently-connected machines I would be able to run such
> a list from (jcomm.uoregon.edu and hexadecimal.uoregon.edu), and this
> list is small enough and low enough in traffic that I could even run the
> list manually.
> 
> If people are interested I could create a list on my work machine,
> hexadecimal.uoregon.edu with all the current names.  I think the only
> question is what we'd want to call the list -- mini-lit?
> starship-design?
> 
> I wouldn't attach any strings to hosting the list, and I would honor any
> subscription or unsubscription requests sent to the list-request or
> owner-list addresses.  If I get ambitious I could probably even create
> a digest version in addition to the simple mail reflector.

Steve, I'm not sure I understand what you are proposeing.  Are you saying that
when I send a e-mail to listserv@wherever it would automatically bounce to all
the members?  Or are you saying that the messages would stack up for a while, 
and then one e-mail would be sent to each of us on a weekly basis (or whenever)
and would you be able to handle the addition of new members  (several hundred?)

If it is the former, then I don't think that is an improvement, but if it is the
latter, then it sounds like a good idea to me (assuming that LIT doesn't move to
Urly-bird.com)

And while we're on the subject, Since I've heard little in the way of opinions
on my offer to host LIT on Urly-bird.com,  I'm going to assume that most members
are ambivilent at best, and opposed (and not wishing to hurt my feelings) at worst.

I have decided to go with the server anyway, (I have a new client and they need 
server space as well as a web page.  This means I will have 30 Megs of storage, 
and about 2 Megs of content.  My offer to host LIT still stands, don't worry about 
running me out of server space, by the time I get near enough to 30 Megs to cause 
concern, I'll have enough clients to cover the cost of more storage space.

I have gotten enough offers of money (I promised to keep the names secret) to cover
any start-up costs associated with this move, so I will not be asking for any more.
I would like it if LIT would allow Urly-bird to run _one_ banner ad on the index.html 
page, but I would not insist on this.  Whether or not LIT runs ads on it's other 
pages, is a matter for us to decide at a future date.

I am asking for your opinions at this time.  If you think this is a good idea,
please say so, if you think it is a bad idea please say so also (I promise I won't
be offended)  If I don't hear from a majority of the group by friday, July 27th, I
will assume that not enough people want to do it, and I will withdraw my offer and 
speak no more of it.

-- 
Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/urlybird.html

From popserver Tue Jul 23 14:37:43 GMT 1996
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	["4177" "Tue" "23" "July" "1996" "09:38:31" "-0400" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "91" "RE: How to become an astronaut?" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: David Levine 
To: "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'" ,
        "'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'" ,
        "'Philip Bakelaar'" 
Cc: "'Zenon Kulpa'" ,
        "'KellySt@aol.com'"
	 ,
        "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"
	 ,
        "'stevev@efn.org'"
	 ,
        "'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'"
	 ,
        "'rddesign@WOLFENET.COM'"
	 
Cc: "'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" ,
        "'DotarSojat@aol.com'" ,
        "'sl0c8@cc.usu.edu'" ,
        "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'" ,
        "'mkshp@IONET.NET'" 
Subject: RE: How to become an astronaut?
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 09:38:31 -0400

>From the NASA FAQ list:

---------------------------

HOW CAN I BECOME AN ASTRONAUT?
Any adult man or woman in excellent physical condition who meets
the basic qualifications can be selected to enter astronaut training.

For mission specialists and pilot astronauts, the minimum requirements
include a bachelor's degree in engineering, science or mathematics from
an accredited institution. Three years of related experience must follow
the degree, and an advanced degree is desirable.  Pilot astronauts must
have at least 1,000 hours of experience in jet aircraft, and they need
better vision than mission specialists.  Competition is extremely keen,
with an average of over 4,000 applicants for about 20 openings every
2 years.

Astronaut recruiting occurs periodically.  For more information, write
to the Astronaut Selection Office, NASA Johnson Space Center,
Houston, TX, 77058.

---------------------------

Anyway, like Kelly, I used to work at JSC.  I know someone who is
actually undergoing the process and I know an astronaut.  Let me
tell you that it's harder than you think.  The neatest part, in my
opinion,
is that the first step is filling out a standard form for application to
a government job.  I think that's an SF-171, but my memory could
be lying... anyone remember what the form number is for applying to
a federal job?

Basically the requirements aren't officially strict.  They're tough, but
a huge percentage of the applicants make the requirements... they
wouldn't apply otherwise, for the most part.  But it's the competition,
the fact that you are competing with so many people who are just
as good if not better than you, that makes it hard.  When they have
two candidates who both meet the requirements, they look for the
person who has gone above and beyond.  And when you've got
two hundred candidates who all meet the requirements, well.....

So while a bachelor's degree is the requirement, most civilian
astronauts (and a good sized portion of military astronauts) have
a PhD.  Physical requirements are hard, but certainly not
unattainable - they don't put you through the rigor of the old
Mercury/Gemini/Apollo days.  20/20 vision is not necessary (at
least not for mission specialists).  A bunch of astronauts
wear glasses on orbit, although I don't know what the deal
is with contacts. I'm pretty sure none of the current astronauts
ever attended space camp - hasn't been around that long. The
most important thing, as you mention, is education. Piloting
experience certainly won't hurt, although it isn't needed to be a
mission specialist.  Being a well rounded individual helps, as well.
Mostly what it comes down to is the "interview" (a multi-part
process), so a charismatic personality can't hurt, either.

There are some apocryphal legends, as well, about what some of
the interview entails.  At one point, supposedly, the remaining
candidates are brought out to dinner at this cool cajun place out by
Ellington Field (which I can't remember the name of off hand, but
it's right on 3, outside of Ellington... help me out Kelly?)  Basically
they want to see you drink.... and stop.  Rumors of not drinking at
all getting you disqualified (no constitution, anti-social, whatever),
and of candidates going too far and not knowing when to stop
themselves getting disqualified.  Of course, this is not part of the
official process.  And, like I said, apocryphal.

-David


>----------
>From: 	Philip Bakelaar[SMTP:pbakelaar@exit109.com]
>Sent: 	Monday, July 22, 1996 11:42 PM
>To: 	Kevin 'Tex' Houston; Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39
>Cc: 	David Levine; Zenon Kulpa; KellySt@aol.com;
>T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl; stevev@efn.org;
>jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu; rddesign@WOLFENET.COM;
>lparker@destin.gulfnet.com; DotarSojat@aol.com; sl0c8@cc.usu.edu;
>neill@foda.math.usu.edu; mkshp@IONET.NET
>Subject: 	How to become an astronaut?
>
>Hey guys, I have a friend who is serious about wanting to
>be an astronaut. I'm just wondering what you guys suggest
>she should do to have a good chance? Like, does she *need*
>to go to NASA camp? What about grades? Health requirements
>(like 20/20 vison)?
>
>Thanx for any and all info
>Ben
>
>

From popserver Tue Jul 23 14:37:46 GMT 1996
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	["727" "Tue" "23" "July" "1996" "09:41:41" "-0400" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "22" "RE: Space questions..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: David Levine 
To: "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'" ,
        "'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'" ,
        "'Philip Bakelaar'" 
Cc: "'Zenon Kulpa'" ,
        "'KellySt@aol.com'"
	 ,
        "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"
	 ,
        "'stevev@efn.org'"
	 ,
        "'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'"
	 ,
        "'rddesign@WOLFENET.COM'"
	 
Cc: "'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" ,
        "'DotarSojat@aol.com'" ,
        "'sl0c8@cc.usu.edu'" ,
        "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'" ,
        "'mkshp@IONET.NET'" 
Subject: RE: Space questions...
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 09:41:41 -0400


>Oh.. the only reason I said Liberia was that I heard many companies,
>especially
>oil companies, like do stuff through Liberia cuz there are no
>restrictions. Did
>I hear right?

Among other industries, I used to work in shipbuilding.  Mainly the idea
is
that most ships have Liberian registry, rather than USA, because there
aren't any Liberian taxes on the ship's operation or cargo.  There are
goofy
laws that say things like foreign registered ships can't visit two US
ports
in a row without paying such-and-such, though, which tries to force US
companies back into registering in the US... don't know how that
particular
battle is going because it's been a while since I've played around in
that
particular area.

David

From popserver Tue Jul 23 14:37:47 GMT 1996
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	["322" "Tue" "23" "July" "1996" "09:43:42" "-0400" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "11" "RE: Space questions..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: David Levine 
To: "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" ,
        "'Philip Bakelaar'"
	 
Cc: "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" ,
        "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'" ,
        "'Zenon Kulpa'" ,
        "'KellySt@aol.com'" ,
        "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'" ,
        "'stevev@efn.org'" 
Subject: RE: Space questions...
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 09:43:42 -0400


>So, David, exactly what are you in the (yuk!) business? :P
>

I work for a software company which creates (among other things):
commerce servers for the internet, chat systems, web posting
systems, multiplayer games, publishing systems, etc.  Hell of a
field - competition is killer.  http://www.interworld.com/

David


From popserver Tue Jul 23 14:37:48 GMT 1996
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From: David Levine 
To: "'Brandon Neill'" ,
        "'Steve VanDevender'"
	 
Cc: "'Philip Bakelaar'" ,
        "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'"
	 ,
        "'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'"
	 ,
        "'Zenon Kulpa'" ,
        "'KellySt@aol.com'" ,
        "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'" 
Cc: "'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'" ,
        "'rddesign@WOLFENET.COM'" ,
        "'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" ,
        "'DotarSojat@aol.com'" ,
        "'sl0c8@cc.usu.edu'" ,
        "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'" 
Cc: "'mkshp@IONET.NET'" 
Subject: RE: minor stuff...
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 09:47:56 -0400


>Actually, I have been thinking about offering this very service.  I
>have
>at least two permanently-connected machines I would be able to run such
>a list from (jcomm.uoregon.edu and hexadecimal.uoregon.edu), and this
>list is small enough and low enough in traffic that I could even run
>the
>list manually.

Definately make things easier.  I guess the main question is how much
will
the list grow?  Perhaps this could be a temporary solution until the new
site
is up and running, very popular, and a full-blown, multi-hundred-member
list
seems like a real possibility?


David

---------

P.S. I've been thinking about something for the future of LIT that
addresses
all the various offers.  More on this tomorrow (or maybe later today) as
I
try to write down what I've been thinking about.

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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Urly-bird offer
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 16:00:38 +0200

> From hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Tue Jul 23 13:38:58 1996
> 
> I am asking for your opinions at this time.  If you think this is a good idea,
> please say so, if you think it is a bad idea please say so also (I promise I won't
> be offended)  If I don't hear from a majority of the group by friday, July 27th, I
> will assume that not enough people want to do it, and I will withdraw my offer and 
> speak no more of it.
> 

I am inclined to say YES.

However, I would like to hear Dave's thoughts on that 
before my final commitment:

> From David@InterWorld.com Tue Jul 23 15:48:16 1996
> 
> P.S. I've been thinking about something for the future of LIT that
> addresses
> all the various offers.  More on this tomorrow (or maybe later today) as
> I
> try to write down what I've been thinking about.
> 


As maybe not all of you know, 
Dave was the one who started all this affair...

-- Zenon

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Philip Bakelaar 
Cc: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@WOLFENET.COM, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET
Subject: Re: Space questions...
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 09:57:31 -0500

At 11:41 PM 7/22/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote:
>At 10:10 PM 7/22/96 -0700, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote:
>>Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>>> The U.N. is largely composed of third world nations (their are more of them
>>> then us) who generally have a socialist attitude.  They largly drafted
>>> whats called the space treaty (which the U.S. has refused to sign, thou
>>> Clinton did make some moves to reverse that policy).  Said treaty roughly
>>> states that space is the common heritage of all mankind, and as a common
>>> heritage no one person, group, or state can own or take profit from any
>>> part of any planet, moon, orbit, or inter planetary transfer orbit.  Any
>>> attemp to use space must be done by an international body that distributes
>>> all profits equaly to all nations regardless of the participation in space
>>> by that state.
>>
>>Kelly, I'm not sure that Socalist leanings are the real reason for the third
>>world nations' wanting the space treaty.  It seems to me that the more
>important
>>reason, is that they are currently unable to participate in any commercial
>>exploitation, and want to stall the more developed countries from gaining an
>>unbreakable foothold.  At least until they (the third world) can be in a
>position
>>to catch up.

No, in the interviews I saw, the U.S. reps said the third world reps
honestly didn't understand where the U.S. was coming from.  They had all
agreed on the idea that space and oceans were the common heratige of
mankind and everyone should get equal access rights.  They just didn't
understand why the U.S. would think that didn't imply an equal share of the
profits.

Eiather way, its not like the first guy out there could claim all the best
planets.  Much less that the third world could get out their on their own
in the next century.

>That just isn't fair. Isn't there anything anybody can do?

Ignore them.  If we don't sign the treaty.  We arn't bound by its rules.
The U.N. can screem, but if the senior menber state refuse to participate,
their isn't much they can do.  No doubt this will cause a lot of headache
for the state department (no doubt why they have been eager to roll over on
this), but comparativly little real impact.


>>This might work Ben, but Liberia is the wrong place for this.  It is on the
>west
>>side of an ocean.  A better place (for safety reasons) would be brazil, or
>somewhere
>>around VietNam (ie near the equator on the eastern rim of an ocean.) A company
>>involved in commercial space flights (for sattelites) was trying to launch
>out of
>>french guianna (sp) but they found out that the local infrastructure was
>>so bad
>>that it was worth the loss of a boost from earth's rotation just to have
>>access
>>to Nasa's launch facilities and tracking stations etc.

New launchers like SSTO don't need the high safty precausions of the
current boosters.  Thats why the initial tests are being run out of
California.

>Oh.. the only reason I said Liberia was that I heard many companies, especially
>oil companies, like do stuff through Liberia cuz there are no restrictions. Did
>I hear right?

Pretty much true.  Countries like that, allow you to register your ship to
them for a fee.  They realize as long as they keep the fees well below the
tax bite the major countries would demand (and the fees of compeating
countries,) they get companies paying to list the ships under their
country.

>>But back to legal issues.  Your idea would work only until the local
>>government
>>figured out that you were making money (or at least, you were spending so
>much that
>>a few percent for taxes would hurt)  Then they would hold some space law
>over your
>>head.  Or worse, they would just nationalize the launch facility, and put
>you in jail
>>for espionage, drugs, or violations of some obscure religious code.

The trick is to not put any expensive launch facilities in their country,
and not to park to many ships their at once.  SSTO's like the DC-X require
no expensive launch facilities.

Also the countries would realize that your ships can go anywahere, and if
they get nasty you and all the other 'flag carriors' will relocate to a
freindlier country.


>So there's really nowhere on Earth where someone/some group could do
>private r&d
>as well as launching?

Everywhere on planet is under someones jurisdiction.  Even deep ocean has
some laws, and its has pirates who will raid you if your valuble and don't
have a country willing to help defend you.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: David Levine 
cc: "'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'" ,
        "'Philip Bakelaar'" ,
        "'Zenon Kulpa'" ,
        "'KellySt@aol.com'" ,
        "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'" ,
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        "'sl0c8@cc.usu.edu'" ,
        "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'" ,
        "'mkshp@IONET.NET'" 
Subject: RE: How to become an astronaut?
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 10:08:07 -0500 (CDT)



On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, David Levine wrote:

> Anyway, like Kelly, I used to work at JSC.  I know someone who is
> actually undergoing the process and I know an astronaut.  Let me
> tell you that it's harder than you think.  The neatest part, in my
> opinion,
> is that the first step is filling out a standard form for application to
> a government job.  I think that's an SF-171, but my memory could
> be lying... anyone remember what the form number is for applying to
> a federal job?
>

Yes, it is a SF-171, but actually, you can now apply with a standard
Resume.  Gore's Reinventing Goverment Initiative has made one positive 
change ;)
 
Kevin

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David Levine 
Cc: "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'" ,
        "'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'" ,
        "'Philip Bakelaar'" ,
        "'Zenon Kulpa'" ,
        "'KellySt@aol.com'"		 ,
        "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"		 ,
        "'stevev@efn.org'"		 ,
        "'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'"		 ,
        "'rddesign@WOLFENET.COM'"		 
Subject: RE: How to become an astronaut?
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 10:09:18 -0500

At 9:38 AM 7/23/96, David Levine wrote:
>>From the NASA FAQ list:
>
>---------------------------
----------
>experience certainly won't hurt, although it isn't needed to be a
>mission specialist.  Being a well rounded individual helps, as well.
>Mostly what it comes down to is the "interview" (a multi-part
>process), so a charismatic personality can't hurt, either.

I worked in the flight planing office, and some people who wanted to become
astronauts would take a job there to look good and well trained on later
reviews.  To be a pilot you need to have flown jet fighters a lot.  Mission
specialists usually are experts in their feilds, often ex research leads.

If you've don'r something questionable (funny political organizations, drug
charges, etc..) forget it.  NASA won't risk the bad press.

If you are an astronaut you can put on a few pounds and need glasses.  As
an applicant, they use any excuse to dump your resume.

A big question is how things will change with the SSTO program.  The
production birds should be coming on line in under 10 years so costs should
come down and they'll be able to fly more flights.  If SSTO does get
implemented, NASA will have to phase out the shuttles so their wount be
may/any maned flights.


>There are some apocryphal legends, as well, about what some of
>the interview entails.  At one point, supposedly, the remaining
>candidates are brought out to dinner at this cool cajun place out by
>Ellington Field (which I can't remember the name of off hand, but
>it's right on 3, outside of Ellington... help me out Kelly?)

Ahhh.  Yeah, little place in a converted gas station.  errr.  Its been 9
years since I worked there Dave.  ?????  Damn they had great BBQ too.  Who
the hell were they?



> --- Basically
>they want to see you drink.... and stop.  Rumors of not drinking at
>all getting you disqualified (no constitution, anti-social, whatever),
>and of candidates going too far and not knowing when to stop
>themselves getting disqualified.  Of course, this is not part of the
>official process.  And, like I said, apocryphal.
>
>-David


Well its harder to get chosen to play basketball for the NBA, but not a lot
harder.  Hundreds apply for the openings.  So if you don't shine, you get
lost in the pile.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David Levine 
Cc: "'Brandon Neill'" ,
        "'Steve VanDevender'"		 ,
        "'Philip Bakelaar'" ,
        "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'"		 ,
        "'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'"		 ,
        "'Zenon Kulpa'" ,
        "'KellySt@aol.com'" ,
        "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'" 
Subject: RE: minor stuff...
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 10:12:27 -0500

At 9:47 AM 7/23/96, David Levine wrote:
>>Actually, I have been thinking about offering this very service.  I
>>have
>>at least two permanently-connected machines I would be able to run such
>>a list from (jcomm.uoregon.edu and hexadecimal.uoregon.edu), and this
>>list is small enough and low enough in traffic that I could even run
>>the
>>list manually.
>
>Definately make things easier.  I guess the main question is how much
>will
>the list grow?  Perhaps this could be a temporary solution until the new
>site
>is up and running, very popular, and a full-blown, multi-hundred-member
>list
>seems like a real possibility?
>
>
>David

I was thinking of hosting a mail list newsletter on my AOL account also.
We should decide this soon.  We need to implement something, and I'm
writing these sections.


>---------
>
>P.S. I've been thinking about something for the future of LIT that
>addresses
>all the various offers.  More on this tomorrow (or maybe later today) as
>I
>try to write down what I've been thinking about.


We wait with anticipations.  ;)


Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: Kevin C Houston 
To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
cc: Philip Bakelaar ,
        Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: Space questions...
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 10:16:14 -0500 (CDT)

On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
> >>Kelly, I'm not sure that Socalist leanings are the real reason for the third
> >>world nations' wanting the space treaty.  It seems to me that the more
> >important
> >>reason, is that they are currently unable to participate in any commercial
> >>exploitation, and want to stall the more developed countries from gaining an
> >>unbreakable foothold.  At least until they (the third world) can be in a
> >position
> >>to catch up.
> 
> No, in the interviews I saw, the U.S. reps said the third world reps
> honestly didn't understand where the U.S. was coming from.  They had all
> agreed on the idea that space and oceans were the common heratige of
> mankind and everyone should get equal access rights.  They just didn't
> understand why the U.S. would think that didn't imply an equal share of the
> profits.
> 
> Eiather way, its not like the first guy out there could claim all the best
> planets.  Much less that the third world could get out their on their own
> in the next century.
> 
So, the US goes to the moon, mines ore, and charges a fortune for it.  
This pays back the high developement cost, and since there is no 
competiton, they make back the startup cost.  after a few years, some 
smaller country decides they want  a piece of the pie.  So they send 
their own mining contingent to the moon, but find that the US can always 
undercharge for the ore, because the startup cost has been paid back.
This is what I was talking about.
Kevin

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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: Space questions...
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 17:21:54 +0200

> From hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Tue Jul 23 17:16:30 1996
> 
> So, the US goes to the moon, mines ore, and charges a fortune for it.  
> This pays back the high developement cost, and since there is no 
> competiton, they make back the startup cost.  after a few years, some 
> smaller country decides they want  a piece of the pie.  So they send 
> their own mining contingent to the moon, but find that the US can always 
> undercharge for the ore, because the startup cost has been paid back.
> This is what I was talking about.
> 
Ahh, but that is true for ANY investment in some new product/technology.
So, should every new investor share his profits with all would-be ones?
This is just pure socialism, if anything...

-- Zenon

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        pbakelaar@exit109.com, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        mkshp@ionet.net (Brian Mansur)
Subject: New lit loadings
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 10:27:01 -0500

As you probably know, I've been working up some stuff for LIT.  Well I've
just uploaded a bunch of it.  New home pages for LITY, Marine sciences,
near earth development, and central library, member lists, etc.. etc...
Please take a look.

http://165.254.130.90/LIT/

A few things to remember.  Many of these sections don't have the sub
levels.  the computer center for example doesn't have the programs loaded
in it, just the calling links.



The main entry pages have a heriarchical diagram map graphic at the bottom
of the page.  This should allow people to take shortcuts around LIT.  But I
made one central graphic with absolute addresses in LIT.  So it won't
function untill its installed there.  (< I also noticed little interest in
relocating to Kev's server.  I think the idea has some strong points, but I
can read the writing on the wall.>)

This stuff is a bit rough, but its the best I'll be able to do for a week or so.

Oh, check the member list for your names and addresses.  A couple of you
I'm not sure of you corect names.  Others like Rex and Steve V. I just
didn't get around to looking them up.

At the bottom of all the pages I worked up I put mail to: bars for me as
the authour, Dave as the site administrator.  If anyone else wants a bar of
the same format for their stuff let me know.

Please take a look and at least give me a comment on the new Lit graphics.
So of the copies got smugged  but I cancorrect that in a bit.

Oh, and yes.  I haven't finished drafting the text.  Anyone want to comment
on my explanation text on the entry pages?

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Kevin C Houston 
Cc: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Philip Bakelaar ,
        Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: Space questions...
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 10:35:50 -0500

At 10:16 AM 7/23/96, Kevin C Houston wrote:
>On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>> >>Kelly, I'm not sure that Socalist leanings are the real reason for the
>>third
>> >>world nations' wanting the space treaty.  It seems to me that the more
>> >important
>> >>reason, is that they are currently unable to participate in any commercial
>> >>exploitation, and want to stall the more developed countries from
>>gaining an
>> >>unbreakable foothold.  At least until they (the third world) can be in a
>> >position
>> >>to catch up.
>>
>> No, in the interviews I saw, the U.S. reps said the third world reps
>> honestly didn't understand where the U.S. was coming from.  They had all
>> agreed on the idea that space and oceans were the common heratige of
>> mankind and everyone should get equal access rights.  They just didn't
>> understand why the U.S. would think that didn't imply an equal share of the
>> profits.
>>
>> Eiather way, its not like the first guy out there could claim all the best
>> planets.  Much less that the third world could get out their on their own
>> in the next century.
>>
>So, the US goes to the moon, mines ore, and charges a fortune for it.
>This pays back the high developement cost, and since there is no
>competiton, they make back the startup cost.  after a few years, some
>smaller country decides they want  a piece of the pie.  So they send
>their own mining contingent to the moon, but find that the US can always
>undercharge for the ore, because the startup cost has been paid back.
>This is what I was talking about.
>Kevin

Thats possible.  But the R&D cost of the equipment would also be paid for
international who wanted to buy the equip.  (assuming we'ld sell.)  Sort of
how the current B-2 bombers cost $1 billion dollars, but any more would
cost about $400 million.  

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: Space questions...
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 10:39:31 -0500

At 5:21 PM 7/23/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> From hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Tue Jul 23 17:16:30 1996
>>
>> So, the US goes to the moon, mines ore, and charges a fortune for it.
>> This pays back the high developement cost, and since there is no
>> competiton, they make back the startup cost.  after a few years, some
>> smaller country decides they want  a piece of the pie.  So they send
>> their own mining contingent to the moon, but find that the US can always
>> undercharge for the ore, because the startup cost has been paid back.
>> This is what I was talking about.
>>
>Ahh, but that is true for ANY investment in some new product/technology.
>So, should every new investor share his profits with all would-be ones?
>This is just pure socialism, if anything...
>
>-- Zenon

The idea was just that.  The details were more worked up for the law of the
sea treaty.  In that the compramise law had the comercial companies
equiping, training, and seting up, a compeating UN facility for every
corporate facility they built.  
The origional idea had everything done by the UN, all profits to be
disbursed by the UN.



Big brother owns everything not currently claimed by a sovern power?

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Tue Jul 23 17:00:58 GMT 1996
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	["3473" "Tue" "23" "July" "1996" "09:56:43" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "65" "Re: minor stuff..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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References: <199607230341.XAA05831@hiway1.exit109.com>
	
	<199607230602.XAA00175@tzadkiel.efn.org>
	<31F4D352.4F12@maroon.tc.umn.edu>
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
Cc: Steve VanDevender , Brandon Neill ,
        Philip Bakelaar ,
        Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET
Subject: Re: minor stuff...
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 09:56:43 -0700

Kevin Houston writes:
 > Steve VanDevender wrote:
 > > Actually, I have been thinking about offering this very service.  I have
 > > at least two permanently-connected machines I would be able to run such
 > > a list from (jcomm.uoregon.edu and hexadecimal.uoregon.edu), and this
 > > list is small enough and low enough in traffic that I could even run the
 > > list manually.
 > > 
 > > If people are interested I could create a list on my work machine,
 > > hexadecimal.uoregon.edu with all the current names.  I think the only
 > > question is what we'd want to call the list -- mini-lit?
 > > starship-design?
 > > 
 > > I wouldn't attach any strings to hosting the list, and I would honor any
 > > subscription or unsubscription requests sent to the list-request or
 > > owner-list addresses.  If I get ambitious I could probably even create
 > > a digest version in addition to the simple mail reflector.
 > 
 > Steve, I'm not sure I understand what you are proposeing.  Are you
 > saying that when I send a e-mail to listserv@wherever it would
 > automatically bounce to all the members?  Or are you saying that the
 > messages would stack up for a while, and then one e-mail would be
 > sent to each of us on a weekly basis (or whenever) and would you be
 > able to handle the addition of new members (several hundred?)
 > 
 > If it is the former, then I don't think that is an improvement, but
 > if it is the latter, then it sounds like a good idea to me (assuming
 > that LIT doesn't move to Urly-bird.com)

Let me restate what I'm proposing:

I would create a mailing list, for the purposes of this example
mini-lit@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu.  Mail to
mini-lit@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu would go to all current recipients of
this message; it would be implemented as a mail alias so remailing of
messages would be instant and automatic.  People could subscribe or
unsubscribe by mailing to mini-lit-request@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu or
owner-mini-lit@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu.  For now I'd probably just
handle the mailing list manually rather than using automated mailing
list software, and consider the automated mailing list if volume became
very high.

If there is interest I could also create a mini-lit-digest that would
send multi-message digests rather than individual messages.  It would be
an option in addition to the mini-lit mail reflector, not a replacement.

I'm proposing this as a convenience to current subscribers to the
current mini-lit.  Rather than have to handle a long recipient list or
remember who is and isn't on the list, I'm willing to set up a service
so that people can just mail to mini-lit@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu, which
would simplify submissions and make it easier for recipients to
automatically sort and archive messages.

Just so you know, hexadecimal.uoregon.edu is an AlphaStation 255/233
running Digital UNIX that is permanently connected at the University of
Oregon.  It's my personal workstation, which is why I can offer a
mini-lit mailing list service on it -- it's completely under my control
and I'm sure it is easily capable of handling the mailing list.

I could also look into the possibility of hosting the list on
darkwing.uoregon.edu, which handles most of the other mailing lists at
the U of O.  I'm not as sure what the eligibility requirements for
having a list on darkwing are, but if we qualify then it would also
instantly set this list up as a Majordomo list and allow automated
subscription/unsubscription.

From popserver Tue Jul 23 17:06:04 GMT 1996
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	["1206" "Tue" "23" "July" "1996" "10:02:17" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "32" "RE: minor stuff..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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In-Reply-To: 
References: 
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
Cc: David Levine ,
        "'Brandon Neill'" ,
        "'Steve VanDevender'"		 ,
        "'Philip Bakelaar'" ,
        "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'"		 ,
        "'Zenon Kulpa'" ,
        "'KellySt@aol.com'" ,
        "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'" 
Subject: RE: minor stuff...
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 10:02:17 -0700

Kelly Starks writes:
 > At 9:47 AM 7/23/96, David Levine wrote:
 > >>Actually, I have been thinking about offering this very service.  I
 > >>have
 > >>at least two permanently-connected machines I would be able to run such
 > >>a list from (jcomm.uoregon.edu and hexadecimal.uoregon.edu), and this
 > >>list is small enough and low enough in traffic that I could even run
 > >>the
 > >>list manually.
 > >
 > >Definately make things easier.  I guess the main question is how much
 > >will
 > >the list grow?  Perhaps this could be a temporary solution until the new
 > >site
 > >is up and running, very popular, and a full-blown, multi-hundred-member
 > >list
 > >seems like a real possibility?
 > >
 > >
 > >David
 > 
 > I was thinking of hosting a mail list newsletter on my AOL account also.
 > We should decide this soon.  We need to implement something, and I'm
 > writing these sections.

I'd be a little leary of trying to run a mailing list out of AOL.  At
least from the outside, AOL is notorious for having broken mailers,
delays, and lost mail.

Part of why I am offering to host a list myself is that I can guarantee
a stable system for mail, and good network connectivity through the U of
O.

From popserver Tue Jul 23 17:31:23 GMT 1996
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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Steve VanDevender 
Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39),
        David Levine ,
        "'Brandon Neill'" ,
        "'Steve VanDevender'"		 ,
        "'Philip Bakelaar'" ,
        "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'"		 ,
        "'Zenon Kulpa'" ,
        "'KellySt@aol.com'" ,
        "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'" 
Subject: RE: minor stuff...
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 12:21:12 -0500

At 10:02 AM 7/23/96, Steve VanDevender wrote:
>Kelly Starks writes:
> > At 9:47 AM 7/23/96, David Levine wrote:
> > >>Actually, I have been thinking about offering this very service.  I
> > >>have
> > >>at least two permanently-connected machines I would be able to run such
> > >>a list from (jcomm.uoregon.edu and hexadecimal.uoregon.edu), and this
> > >>list is small enough and low enough in traffic that I could even run
> > >>the
> > >>list manually.
> > >
> > >Definately make things easier.  I guess the main question is how much
> > >will
> > >the list grow?  Perhaps this could be a temporary solution until the new
> > >site
> > >is up and running, very popular, and a full-blown, multi-hundred-member
> > >list
> > >seems like a real possibility?
> > >
> > >
> > >David
> >
> > I was thinking of hosting a mail list newsletter on my AOL account also.
> > We should decide this soon.  We need to implement something, and I'm
> > writing these sections.
>
>I'd be a little leary of trying to run a mailing list out of AOL.  At
>least from the outside, AOL is notorious for having broken mailers,
>delays, and lost mail.
>
>Part of why I am offering to host a list myself is that I can guarantee
>a stable system for mail, and good network connectivity through the U of
>O.

Well I am on the inside.  So I could handel packaging and shiping, thou an
automatic version would be nice.  (I have other things I could do with my
time.)

I don't know which AOL problems your speaking of.  Not that I'm on a lot of
mailers.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Steve VanDevender 
Cc: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        Steve VanDevender , Brandon Neill ,
        Philip Bakelaar ,
        Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET
Subject: Re: minor stuff...
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 12:40:24 -0500

At 9:56 AM 7/23/96, Steve VanDevender wrote:
>Kevin Houston writes:
> > Steve VanDevender wrote:
> > > Actually, I have been thinking about offering this very service.  I have
> > > at least two permanently-connected machines I would be able to run such
> > > a list from (jcomm.uoregon.edu and hexadecimal.uoregon.edu), and this
> > > list is small enough and low enough in traffic that I could even run the
> > > list manually.
> > >
> > > If people are interested I could create a list on my work machine,
> > > hexadecimal.uoregon.edu with all the current names.  I think the only
> > > question is what we'd want to call the list -- mini-lit?
> > > starship-design?
> > >
> > > I wouldn't attach any strings to hosting the list, and I would honor any
> > > subscription or unsubscription requests sent to the list-request or
> > > owner-list addresses.  If I get ambitious I could probably even create
> > > a digest version in addition to the simple mail reflector.
> >
> > Steve, I'm not sure I understand what you are proposeing.  Are you
> > saying that when I send a e-mail to listserv@wherever it would
> > automatically bounce to all the members?  Or are you saying that the
> > messages would stack up for a while, and then one e-mail would be
> > sent to each of us on a weekly basis (or whenever) and would you be
> > able to handle the addition of new members (several hundred?)
> >
> > If it is the former, then I don't think that is an improvement, but
> > if it is the latter, then it sounds like a good idea to me (assuming
> > that LIT doesn't move to Urly-bird.com)
>
>Let me restate what I'm proposing:
>
>I would create a mailing list, for the purposes of this example
>mini-lit@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu.  Mail to
>mini-lit@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu would go to all current recipients of
>this message; it would be implemented as a mail alias so remailing of
>messages would be instant and automatic.  People could subscribe or
>unsubscribe by mailing to mini-lit-request@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu or
>owner-mini-lit@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu.  For now I'd probably just
>handle the mailing list manually rather than using automated mailing
>list software, and consider the automated mailing list if volume became
>very high.
>
>If there is interest I could also create a mini-lit-digest that would
>send multi-message digests rather than individual messages.  It would be
>an option in addition to the mini-lit mail reflector, not a replacement.
>
>I'm proposing this as a convenience to current subscribers to the
>current mini-lit.  Rather than have to handle a long recipient list or
>remember who is and isn't on the list, I'm willing to set up a service
>so that people can just mail to mini-lit@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu, which
>would simplify submissions and make it easier for recipients to
>automatically sort and archive messages.
>
>Just so you know, hexadecimal.uoregon.edu is an AlphaStation 255/233
>running Digital UNIX that is permanently connected at the University of
>Oregon.  It's my personal workstation, which is why I can offer a
>mini-lit mailing list service on it -- it's completely under my control
>and I'm sure it is easily capable of handling the mailing list.
>
>I could also look into the possibility of hosting the list on
>darkwing.uoregon.edu, which handles most of the other mailing lists at
>the U of O.  I'm not as sure what the eligibility requirements for
>having a list on darkwing are, but if we qualify then it would also
>instantly set this list up as a Majordomo list and allow automated
>subscription/unsubscription.


Ah, thats much clearer.  Thanks.

I would suggest we not only bundel say weekly newsletter, but we include
them, and the last couple months worth, in the LIT newsletter archive.
First because we cover a lot of stuff; and because it makes the site look
active, not dead.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Tue Jul 23 17:56:46 GMT 1996
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	["657" "Tue" "23" "July" "1996" "19:51:40" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "18" "Re: minor stuff..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: minor stuff...
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 19:51:40 +0200

> From stevev@efn.org Tue Jul 23 19:42:08 1996
> 
> Let me restate what I'm proposing:
> 
> I would create a mailing list, for the purposes of this example
> mini-lit@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu.  
> [...]
> 
Of course I am for it.
Individual tracking of the list of addresses is a pain in the neck,
and it often lead to missing some members or sending posts
to unwilling recipients when members come and go, or change addresses.
I wondered why it was not made from the beginning of this
"mini-LIT" list (I still really do not understand why the old
newsletter arrangement became defunct, as the WWW pages on SUNsite
are accessible all the time...).

-- Zenon 

From popserver Tue Jul 23 18:06:51 GMT 1996
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	["545" "Tue" "23" "July" "1996" "11:05:05" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "10" "Re: minor stuff..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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In-Reply-To: 
References: 
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
Cc: Steve VanDevender ,
        "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        Brandon Neill ,
        Philip Bakelaar ,
        Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET
Subject: Re: minor stuff...
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 11:05:05 -0700

Kelly Starks writes:
 > I would suggest we not only bundel say weekly newsletter, but we include
 > them, and the last couple months worth, in the LIT newsletter archive.
 > First because we cover a lot of stuff; and because it makes the site look
 > active, not dead.

I have an archive of most of the mini-LIT mail since we started the
impromptu mailing list.  I would also want to keep an archive as part of
maintaining the mailing list, which could also be a start towards
offering a digest version to subscribers that want it in that form.

From popserver Tue Jul 23 18:37:24 GMT 1996
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Steve VanDevender 
Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39),
        Steve VanDevender ,
        "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        Brandon Neill ,
        Philip Bakelaar ,
        Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
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        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET
Subject: Re: minor stuff...
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 13:28:54 -0500

At 11:05 AM 7/23/96, Steve VanDevender wrote:
>Kelly Starks writes:
> > I would suggest we not only bundel say weekly newsletter, but we include
> > them, and the last couple months worth, in the LIT newsletter archive.
> > First because we cover a lot of stuff; and because it makes the site look
> > active, not dead.
>
>I have an archive of most of the mini-LIT mail since we started the
>impromptu mailing list.  I would also want to keep an archive as part of
>maintaining the mailing list, which could also be a start towards
>offering a digest version to subscribers that want it in that form.


Great!

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Tue Jul 23 18:47:38 GMT 1996
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	["2646" "Tue" "23" "July" "1996" "13:35:50" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "80" "Re: New lit loadings" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        pbakelaar@exit109.com, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        mkshp@ionet.net (Brian Mansur)
Subject: Re: New lit loadings
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 13:35:50 -0500

At 7:56 PM 7/23/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Tue Jul 23 17:30:00 1996
>>
>> As you probably know, I've been working up some stuff for LIT.  Well I've
>> just uploaded a bunch of it.  New home pages for LITY, Marine sciences,
>> near earth development, and central library, member lists, etc.. etc...
>> Please take a look.
>>
>> http://165.254.130.90/LIT/
>>
>You asked for that... ;-))
>
>1. The URL above loads the "Hi there" text and nothing more
>   (as does your LIT imagemap).
>   One must do some guesswork to add "index.html" to the address...

Opps.  Try.

http://165.254.130.90/LIT/index.html


>2. Black (or dark) background makes followed-up links
>   (with their deafault dark-blue color) unreadable.
>   Change background or specify another VLINK color.
>   Generally, I prefer the paper-like situation:
>   dark letters on bright background.

Hum.  I thought it contrasted pretty well.  Might be different monitors or
browser defs thou.  I'm kind of found of the black background for the entry
pages.  I'll try some more contrastly color combinations.

>3. Some texts on your LIT imagemap are too small/too low contrast,
>   hence hardly readable.

Do you mean the tree on the bottom of the pages?

>4. Congratulations! - you must have worked reeeelly hard:
>   the number of spelling errors is an order of magnitude less
>   that your usual share... ;-)

???  I though I forgot to even spell check it?


>   However, there are some. For the main page I have made rather
>   thorough proofreading (except some capital letter problems,
>   e.g. "moon" or "Moon"?), also adding along the way some small
>   enhancements (see the entire source HTML attached to the next
>   private letter - hope you can  uudecode  it!).

I'll do my best.  (You could just paste it as text in the main message?
They are fairly short.)

>And be prepared for another round of Kelly-bashing
>concerning the one-way missions... ;-))
>
>-- Zenon


:)  Oooo.  Freash meat.

I could never figure out where you were coming from on the pro kamakazi
flights.  Over here were hard pressed to get permision to deliberatly risk
solder lives in combat.  Expending them for anything short of saving a U.S.
city is unthinkable.

In my cynical periods, I figured you'ld been under the Soviet thumb for too
long.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Tue Jul 23 18:47:39 GMT 1996
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	["1118" "Tue" "23" "July" "1996" "13:38:42" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "29" "Re: minor stuff..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Steve VanDevender 
Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39),
        Steve VanDevender ,
        "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        Brandon Neill ,
        Philip Bakelaar ,
        Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET
Subject: Re: minor stuff...
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 13:38:42 -0500

At 11:05 AM 7/23/96, Steve VanDevender wrote:
>Kelly Starks writes:
> > I would suggest we not only bundel say weekly newsletter, but we include
> > them, and the last couple months worth, in the LIT newsletter archive.
> > First because we cover a lot of stuff; and because it makes the site look
> > active, not dead.
>
>I have an archive of most of the mini-LIT mail since we started the
>impromptu mailing list.  I would also want to keep an archive as part of
>maintaining the mailing list, which could also be a start towards
>offering a digest version to subscribers that want it in that form.


You know.  Now that I think about it wasn't someone talking about hanging a
search engine on the newsletters?  Pity we havent the time to tear them
down into topis FAQ's or something.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Tue Jul 23 19:12:57 GMT 1996
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	["2408" "Tue" "23" "July" "1996" "21:09:12" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" nil "72" "Re: New lit loadings" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: New lit loadings
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 21:09:12 +0200

> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Tue Jul 23 20:40:29 1996
> 
> At 7:56 PM 7/23/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
> >> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Tue Jul 23 17:30:00 1996
> >>
> >> As you probably know, I've been working up some stuff for LIT.  Well I've
> >> just uploaded a bunch of it.  New home pages for LITY, Marine sciences,
> >> near earth development, and central library, member lists, etc.. etc...
> >> Please take a look.
> >>
> >> http://165.254.130.90/LIT/
> >>
> >You asked for that... ;-))
> >
> >1. The URL above loads the "Hi there" text and nothing more
> >   (as does your LIT imagemap).
> >   One must do some guesswork to add "index.html" to the address...
> 
> Opps.  Try.
> 
> http://165.254.130.90/LIT/index.html
> 
Yes, I had already figured it out 
(as you should have seen from my text above...)


> >3. Some texts on your LIT imagemap are too small/too low contrast,
> >   hence hardly readable.
> 
> Do you mean the tree on the bottom of the pages?
> 
Exactly.


> >4. Congratulations! - you must have worked reeeelly hard:
> >   the number of spelling errors is an order of magnitude less
> >   that your usual share... ;-)
> 
> ???  I though I forgot to even spell check it?
> 
Really??? Miracles happen...  ;-)


> >And be prepared for another round of Kelly-bashing
> >concerning the one-way missions... ;-))
> 
> :)  Oooo.  Freash meat.
> 
> I could never figure out where you were coming from on the pro kamakazi
> flights.  Over here were hard pressed to get permision to deliberatly risk
> solder lives in combat.  Expending them for anything short of saving a U.S.
> city is unthinkable.
> 
> In my cynical periods, I figured you'ld been under the Soviet thumb for too
> long.
> 
There may be something in it - 
we here must still have some fighting trim left 
(you coke-drinking, couch-potato-lying decadents... ;-))

Seriously, though, my problem with this discussion was
that you seemingly were not able to, or do not want to,
understandand the GREAT difference between one-way missions 
and suicide missions. Only the latter are "kamikaze";
the former are simply cosmic-distance relocations -
I do not see any suicidal elements in them.
So budling both types of missions under "one-way" heading
and then discussing them together as if both were same-type
suicidal missions (as you do in your Progress Report) 
really infuriates me, as simply unfair arguing practice...

-- Zenon

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        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        David@InterWorld.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: Re: New lit loadings
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 12:22:42 -0700 (PDT)

>> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Tue Jul 23 20:40:29 1996
>> 
>> At 7:56 PM 7/23/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> >> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Tue Jul 23 17:30:00 1996
>> >>
>> >> As you probably know, I've been working up some stuff for LIT.  Well I've
>> >> just uploaded a bunch of it.  New home pages for LITY, Marine sciences,
>> >> near earth development, and central library, member lists, etc.. etc...
>> >> Please take a look.
>> >>
>> >> http://165.254.130.90/LIT/
>> >>
>> >You asked for that... ;-))
>> >
>> >1. The URL above loads the "Hi there" text and nothing more
>> >   (as does your LIT imagemap).
>> >   One must do some guesswork to add "index.html" to the address...
>> 
>> Opps.  Try.
>> 
>> http://165.254.130.90/LIT/index.html
>> 
>Yes, I had already figured it out 
>(as you should have seen from my text above...)
>
>
>> >3. Some texts on your LIT imagemap are too small/too low contrast,
>> >   hence hardly readable.
>> 
>> Do you mean the tree on the bottom of the pages?
>> 
>Exactly.
>
>
>> >4. Congratulations! - you must have worked reeeelly hard:
>> >   the number of spelling errors is an order of magnitude less
>> >   that your usual share... ;-)
>> 
>> ???  I though I forgot to even spell check it?
>> 
>Really??? Miracles happen...  ;-)
>
>
>> >And be prepared for another round of Kelly-bashing
>> >concerning the one-way missions... ;-))
>> 
>> :)  Oooo.  Freash meat.
>> 
>> I could never figure out where you were coming from on the pro kamakazi
>> flights.  Over here were hard pressed to get permision to deliberatly risk
>> solder lives in combat.  Expending them for anything short of saving a U.S.
>> city is unthinkable.
>> 
>> In my cynical periods, I figured you'ld been under the Soviet thumb for too
>> long.
>> 
>There may be something in it - 
>we here must still have some fighting trim left 
>(you coke-drinking, couch-potato-lying decadents... ;-))
>
>Seriously, though, my problem with this discussion was
>that you seemingly were not able to, or do not want to,
>understandand the GREAT difference between one-way missions 
>and suicide missions. Only the latter are "kamikaze";
>the former are simply cosmic-distance relocations -
>I do not see any suicidal elements in them.
>So budling both types of missions under "one-way" heading
>and then discussing them together as if both were same-type
>suicidal missions (as you do in your Progress Report) 
>really infuriates me, as simply unfair arguing practice...
>
>-- Zenon
...........................................................................
I have to agree with Zenon on this........one way means you are setting up
housekeeping at the other end......One way means you can keep sending
research data...daily, weekly, monthly, or what ever......

What would have been the results of the new world, (don't even argue that
you could go back)....most folks , like my grandparents, knew they could
NEVER go home again......they were leaving EVERYTHING
FOREVER.......................

Yhis concept shouldn't be eliminated.............

Ric
Visit RD Designs Home Page at:..http://www.wolfenet.com/~rddesign/Rddesign.htm

From popserver Tue Jul 23 19:28:12 GMT 1996
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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        pbakelaar@exit109.com, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        mkshp@ionet.net (Brian Mansur)
Subject: Re: New lit loadings
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 14:18:42 -0500

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 19:56:45 +0200
From: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Subject: Re: New lit loadings

> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Tue Jul 23 17:30:00 1996
>
> As you probably know, I've been working up some stuff for LIT.  Well I've
> just uploaded a bunch of it.  New home pages for LITY, Marine sciences,
> near earth development, and central library, member lists, etc.. etc...
> Please take a look.
>
> http://165.254.130.90/LIT/
>
You asked for that... ;-))

1. The URL above loads the "Hi there" text and nothing more
   (as does your LIT imagemap).
   One must do some guesswork to add "index.html" to the address...

2. Black (or dark) background makes followed-up links
   (with their deafault dark-blue color) unreadable.
   Change background or specify another VLINK color.
   Generally, I prefer the paper-like situation:
   dark letters on bright background.

3. Some texts on your LIT imagemap are too small/too low contrast,
   hence hardly readable.

4. Congratulations! - you must have worked reeeelly hard:
   the number of spelling errors is an order of magnitude less
   that your usual share... ;-)
   However, there are some. For the main page I have made rather
   thorough proofreading (except some capital letter problems,
   e.g. "moon" or "Moon"?), also adding along the way some small
   enhancements (see the entire source HTML attached to the next
   private letter - hope you can  uudecode  it!).

And be prepared for another round of Kelly-bashing
concerning the one-way missions... ;-))

-- Zenon


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: New lit loadings
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 14:50:59 -0500

At 9:09 PM 7/23/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Tue Jul 23 20:40:29 1996
>>
>> At 7:56 PM 7/23/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> >> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Tue Jul 23 17:30:00 1996
>> >4. Congratulations! - you must have worked reeeelly hard:
>> >   the number of spelling errors is an order of magnitude less
>> >   that your usual share... ;-)
>>
>> ???  I though I forgot to even spell check it?
>>
>Really??? Miracles happen...  ;-)

Another victory of dumb luck, over skill and dilligence.

;)

>> >And be prepared for another round of Kelly-bashing
>> >concerning the one-way missions... ;-))
>>
>> :)  Oooo.  Freash meat.
>>
>> I could never figure out where you were coming from on the pro kamakazi
>> flights.  Over here were hard pressed to get permision to deliberatly risk
>> solder lives in combat.  Expending them for anything short of saving a U.S.
>> city is unthinkable.
>>
>> In my cynical periods, I figured you'ld been under the Soviet thumb for too
>> long.
>>
>There may be something in it -
>we here must still have some fighting trim left
>(you coke-drinking, couch-potato-lying decadents... ;-))
>
>Seriously, though, my problem with this discussion was
>that you seemingly were not able to, or do not want to,
>understandand the GREAT difference between one-way missions
>and suicide missions. Only the latter are "kamikaze";
>the former are simply cosmic-distance relocations -
>I do not see any suicidal elements in them.
>
>So bundling both types of missions under "one-way" heading
>and then discussing them together as if both were same-type
>suicidal missions (as you do in your Progress Report)
>really infuriates me, as simply unfair arguing practice...
>
>-- Zenon

Sorry it it seemed that way.  I was not trying to unfairly slight one of
the options.  But excluding colony missions (where one assumes people wish
to [and can] live there and intend to build homes and cities and such), I
really don't see any significant difference.

You're sending people to go there, do a few years of work, and then be
abandoned to sit in the ship until systems failures or lack of medical
kills them.  They obviously can't live out their full life expectancy (even
assuming the ship lasts that long), and their quality of life (traped in a
deteriorating derilict ship) is worse than what we'ld assign hardened
criminals to.  So I would expect a large fraction of any crew stuck there
to suicide after the mission ends anyway.  There only hope would be rescue
by a follow up flight (with a much better ship).

Politically and practically, your throwing people away for your mission
convenence.  Which would [not unreasonably] play in the press as murder.  I
sincerly don't see such a mission could be proposed or executed (no pun
intended) in the industrial world.

Kelly




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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	["1439" "Tue" "23" "July" "1996" "19:24:18" "-0700" "Kevin Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "33" "Re: Space questions..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
To: Zenon Kulpa 
CC: KellySt@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@WOLFENET.COM,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@COMPUSERVE.COM, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@IONET.NET
Subject: Re: Space questions...
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 19:24:18 -0700

Zenon Kulpa wrote:
> 
> > From hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Tue Jul 23 17:16:30 1996
> >
> > So, the US goes to the moon, mines ore, and charges a fortune for it.
> > This pays back the high developement cost, and since there is no
> > competiton, they make back the startup cost.  after a few years, some
> > smaller country decides they want  a piece of the pie.  So they send
> > their own mining contingent to the moon, but find that the US can always
> > undercharge for the ore, because the startup cost has been paid back.
> > This is what I was talking about.
> >
> Ahh, but that is true for ANY investment in some new product/technology.
> So, should every new investor share his profits with all would-be ones?
> This is just pure socialism, if anything...
> 
> -- Zenon

No, No you mis-understand me.  I meant to suggest that the smaller countries are
using the socialism angle (which they know the US will never accept) to buy time 
so that they can get their own space program up and running



-- 
Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html

Every time a third party candidate comes up, both major parties say:
"You can't vote for him, you'll just be handing the election to the other guy"
Well, Democrat and Republican are just two different names for the same thief, 
So what does it really matter?  This time I'm voting Libertarian.
Harry Browne for President.  http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/   (800) 682-1776


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		<199607230602.XAA00175@tzadkiel.efn.org>
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From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
To: Steve VanDevender 
CC: Brandon Neill ,
        Philip Bakelaar ,
        Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 ,
        Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        rddesign@WOLFENET.COM, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: minor stuff...
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 19:28:34 -0700

Steve VanDevender wrote:
> 
> Kevin Houston writes:
>  > Steve VanDevender wrote:
>  > > Actually, I have been thinking about offering this very service.  I have
>  > > at least two permanently-connected machines I would be able to run such
>  > > a list from (jcomm.uoregon.edu and hexadecimal.uoregon.edu), and this
>  > > list is small enough and low enough in traffic that I could even run the
>  > > list manually.
>  > >
>  > > If people are interested I could create a list on my work machine,
>  > > hexadecimal.uoregon.edu with all the current names.  I think the only
>  > > question is what we'd want to call the list -- mini-lit?
>  > > starship-design?
>  > >
>  > > I wouldn't attach any strings to hosting the list, and I would honor any
>  > > subscription or unsubscription requests sent to the list-request or
>  > > owner-list addresses.  If I get ambitious I could probably even create
>  > > a digest version in addition to the simple mail reflector.
>  >
>  > Steve, I'm not sure I understand what you are proposeing.  Are you
>  > saying that when I send a e-mail to listserv@wherever it would
>  > automatically bounce to all the members?  Or are you saying that the
>  > messages would stack up for a while, and then one e-mail would be
>  > sent to each of us on a weekly basis (or whenever) and would you be
>  > able to handle the addition of new members (several hundred?)
>  >
>  > If it is the former, then I don't think that is an improvement, but
>  > if it is the latter, then it sounds like a good idea to me (assuming
>  > that LIT doesn't move to Urly-bird.com)
> 
> Let me restate what I'm proposing:
> 
> I would create a mailing list, for the purposes of this example
> mini-lit@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu.  Mail to
> mini-lit@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu would go to all current recipients of
> this message; it would be implemented as a mail alias so remailing of
> messages would be instant and automatic.  People could subscribe or
> unsubscribe by mailing to mini-lit-request@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu or
> owner-mini-lit@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu.  For now I'd probably just
> handle the mailing list manually rather than using automated mailing
> list software, and consider the automated mailing list if volume became
> very high.
> 
> If there is interest I could also create a mini-lit-digest that would
> send multi-message digests rather than individual messages.  It would be
> an option in addition to the mini-lit mail reflector, not a replacement.
> 
> I'm proposing this as a convenience to current subscribers to the
> current mini-lit.  Rather than have to handle a long recipient list or
> remember who is and isn't on the list, I'm willing to set up a service
> so that people can just mail to mini-lit@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu, which
> would simplify submissions and make it easier for recipients to
> automatically sort and archive messages.
> 
> Just so you know, hexadecimal.uoregon.edu is an AlphaStation 255/233
> running Digital UNIX that is permanently connected at the University of
> Oregon.  It's my personal workstation, which is why I can offer a
> mini-lit mailing list service on it -- it's completely under my control
> and I'm sure it is easily capable of handling the mailing list.
> 
> I could also look into the possibility of hosting the list on
> darkwing.uoregon.edu, which handles most of the other mailing lists at
> the U of O.  I'm not as sure what the eligibility requirements for
> having a list on darkwing are, but if we qualify then it would also
> instantly set this list up as a Majordomo list and allow automated
> subscription/unsubscription. 

Oh,  I see.  Well, That's different then -- Never Mind!  ;)

Seriously, that sounds good.  Answers all my questions.  I'm for that.
-- 
Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html

Every time a third party candidate comes up, both major parties say:
"You can't vote for him, you'll just be handing the election to the other guy"
Well, Democrat and Republican are just two different names for the same thief, 
So what does it really matter?  This time I'm voting Libertarian.
Harry Browne for President.  http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/   (800) 682-1776

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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: Space questions...
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 17:09:45 +0200

> From hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Wed Jul 24 14:29:53 1996
> 
> Zenon Kulpa wrote:
> > 
> > > From hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Tue Jul 23 17:16:30 1996
> > >
> > > So, the US goes to the moon, mines ore, and charges a fortune for it.
> > > This pays back the high developement cost, and since there is no
> > > competiton, they make back the startup cost.  after a few years, some
> > > smaller country decides they want  a piece of the pie.  So they send
> > > their own mining contingent to the moon, but find that the US can always
> > > undercharge for the ore, because the startup cost has been paid back.
> > > This is what I was talking about.
> > >
> > Ahh, but that is true for ANY investment in some new product/technology.
> > So, should every new investor share his profits with all would-be ones?
> > This is just pure socialism, if anything...
> 
> No, No you mis-understand me. I meant to suggest that the smaller countries are
> using the socialism angle (which they know the US will never accept) to buy time 
> so that they can get their own space program up and running
> 
Still I don't understand.
Why they want to use something (the "socialism angle") 
if they know US will not accept it? (I wonder, though - see the Sea Treaty...).
The only explanation for me is they "think socialist" from the start,
considering it so natural, that they do not imagine anybody may oppose it
(except, possibly, some bloody imperialist - but after some bombs planted
here and there...).
And, do you see any of them starting their own space programs up?

No, I see only the standard socialist attitude -
"give us half of your cow or else..."

-- Zenon

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
Cc: Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@WOLFENET.COM,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@COMPUSERVE.COM, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@IONET.NET
Subject: Re: Space questions...
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 10:14:54 -0500

At 7:24 PM 7/23/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote:
>Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>>
>> > From hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Tue Jul 23 17:16:30 1996
>> >
>> > So, the US goes to the moon, mines ore, and charges a fortune for it.
>> > This pays back the high developement cost, and since there is no
>> > competiton, they make back the startup cost.  after a few years, some
>> > smaller country decides they want  a piece of the pie.  So they send
>> > their own mining contingent to the moon, but find that the US can always
>> > undercharge for the ore, because the startup cost has been paid back.
>> > This is what I was talking about.
>> >
>> Ahh, but that is true for ANY investment in some new product/technology.
>> So, should every new investor share his profits with all would-be ones?
>> This is just pure socialism, if anything...
>>
>> -- Zenon
>
>No, No you mis-understand me.  I meant to suggest that the smaller
>countries are
>using the socialism angle (which they know the US will never accept) to
>buy time
>so that they can get their own space program up and running
>--
>Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html

If true, the tactic could back fire.  We could just go ahead and start
mining without U.N. approval.  Say U.S., E.S.A. Members, and Russians set
up a group to coordinate operations.  They then make agreements, but only
with other members.  They could then later get used to the idea,m and not
let future newly industrialized nations join the club.  I.E. they could
allocate all known resorces to member organization.  Future groups would
find everything was already reserved.


One other possible factor of course, is the third world is economically
threatened by space development.  Their economies are based on selling raw
materials to the developed world.  Space is loaded with ultra high grade
fuel and ore.  How would the Saudis react if we started a project to
recover oil from near earth comet cores?  How would others if they heard we
were going to recover iron, gold, copper, nickel, etc.. fron near earth
bodies?  We would on the one hand end the possibility of resource shortages
for human history.  But also destroy the economies of those who profit most
from selling the limited resorces.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
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        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: Space questions...
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 17:26:25 +0200

> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Wed Jul 24 17:20:14 1996
> 
> At 7:24 PM 7/23/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote:
> >Zenon Kulpa wrote:
> >>
> >> > From hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Tue Jul 23 17:16:30 1996
> >> >
> >> > So, the US goes to the moon, mines ore, and charges a fortune for it.
> >> > This pays back the high developement cost, and since there is no
> >> > competiton, they make back the startup cost.  after a few years, some
> >> > smaller country decides they want  a piece of the pie.  So they send
> >> > their own mining contingent to the moon, but find that the US can always
> >> > undercharge for the ore, because the startup cost has been paid back.
> >> > This is what I was talking about.
> >> >
> >> Ahh, but that is true for ANY investment in some new product/technology.
> >> So, should every new investor share his profits with all would-be ones?
> >> This is just pure socialism, if anything...
> >>
> >> -- Zenon
> >
> >No, No you mis-understand me.  I meant to suggest that the smaller
> >countries are
> >using the socialism angle (which they know the US will never accept) to
> >buy time
> >so that they can get their own space program up and running
> >--
> >Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html
> 
> [...] 
> 
> One other possible factor of course, is the third world is economically
> threatened by space development.  Their economies are based on selling raw
> materials to the developed world.  Space is loaded with ultra high grade
> fuel and ore.  How would the Saudis react if we started a project to
> recover oil from near earth comet cores?  How would others if they heard we
> were going to recover iron, gold, copper, nickel, etc.. fron near earth
> bodies?  We would on the one hand end the possibility of resource shortages
> for human history.  But also destroy the economies of those who profit most
> from selling the limited resorces.
> 
Yes. 
For me it sounds as more convincing reason (plus socialism, of course...).

-- Zenon

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: Space questions...
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 10:48:31 -0500

At 5:26 PM 7/24/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Wed Jul 24 17:20:14 1996
>>
>> At 7:24 PM 7/23/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote:
>> >Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > From hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu Tue Jul 23 17:16:30 1996
>> >> >
>> >> > So, the US goes to the moon, mines ore, and charges a fortune for it.
>> >> > This pays back the high developement cost, and since there is no
>> >> > competiton, they make back the startup cost.  after a few years, some
>> >> > smaller country decides they want  a piece of the pie.  So they send
>> >> > their own mining contingent to the moon, but find that the US can always
>> >> > undercharge for the ore, because the startup cost has been paid back.
>> >> > This is what I was talking about.
>> >> >
>> >> Ahh, but that is true for ANY investment in some new product/technology.
>> >> So, should every new investor share his profits with all would-be ones?
>> >> This is just pure socialism, if anything...
>> >>
>> >> -- Zenon
>> >
>> >No, No you mis-understand me.  I meant to suggest that the smaller
>> >countries are
>> >using the socialism angle (which they know the US will never accept) to
>> >buy time
>> >so that they can get their own space program up and running
>> >--
>> >Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> One other possible factor of course, is the third world is economically
>> threatened by space development.  Their economies are based on selling raw
>> materials to the developed world.  Space is loaded with ultra high grade
>> fuel and ore.  How would the Saudis react if we started a project to
>> recover oil from near earth comet cores?  How would others if they heard we
>> were going to recover iron, gold, copper, nickel, etc.. fron near earth
>> bodies?  We would on the one hand end the possibility of resource shortages
>> for human history.  But also destroy the economies of those who profit most
>> from selling the limited resorces.
>>
>Yes.
>For me it sounds as more convincing reason (plus socialism, of course...).
>
>-- Zenon


Socialism saying everyone should be rewarded equally regardless of effort
or investment.  Greed saying, I don't want to lose out and I want some of
whatever you get.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Socialism and others
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 18:36:21 +0200

> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Wed Jul 24 17:51:53 1996
> 
> >Yes.
> >For me it sounds as more convincing reason (plus socialism, of course...).
> >
> >-- Zenon
> 
> Socialism saying everyone should be rewarded equally regardless of effort
> or investment.  Greed saying, I don't want to lose out and I want some of
> whatever you get.
> 
Nice to hear that at least some Americans know what socialism means ;-))
Unfortunately, from my contacts with a number of them Americans,
and from observing the evolution of US social and political system
it seems that you are a minority (and threatened by extinction)...

Here goes some amusing characterization of various political systems
I have found recently on Objectivists pages:

=======================================

                            Politics Made Simple
                            --------------------
Do you have trouble understanding politics? 
If so, the following primer (thanks to the Manitoban 
of the University of Manitoba) should clear it up for you. 
No bull.

Socialism: You have two cows. Give one to your neighbour.

Communism: You have two cows. Give both to the government. 
           The government gives you milk.

Capitalism: You sell one cow and buy a bull.

Facism: You have two cows. Give milk to the government. 
        The government sells it.

Nazism: The government shoots you and takes the cows.

New Dealism: The government shoots one cow, milks the other, 
             and pours the milk down the sink.

Anarchism: Keep the cows. Steal another one. Shoot the government.

Conservatism: Freeze the milk. Embalm the cows.

Liberalism: Give away one cow. Get the government to give you a new cow.
            Now give them both away.

=======================================

FURTHER NOTES (by Zenon):

The characterization of Socialism above presents 
its rather soft, theoretical version.
The more real-life version (from my personal experience)
would be:


Socialism: You have two cows. The government takes one and says 
           that it will give the cow to your neighbour.


There was a popular saying in Poland some time ago:
"When The Party says that it will give us something, 
 then it certainly says that."

Similar with Communism. It should be rather:


Communism: You have two cows. The government takes both, 
           and gives you one-tenth of the skimmed milk.
           The rest goes to support the worldwide revolution.


Note also, that what you Americans call Liberalism
is called Socialdemocracy in Europe.
It is Socialism pretending to be not,
and concealing the socialist doings by
very intricate "democratic" (in fact, bureaucratic) procedures.
Something we have now in Poland, though mixed more and more with
the so-called "Capitalismo", missing from the list above
(see e.g. Brasil and several other South- and Central-American states).
It can be characterized as follows:


Capitalismo: You have two cows. You sell one and spend all the money
             for bribing officials to get a permit to buy a bull.
             Having now no money to buy one, you borrow bull's services
             on black market. You then sell the calf and use all the money
             to bribe officials for not prosecuting you for
             the illegal use of the bull...


Enjoy and learn ;-)

-- Zenon

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: Socialism and others
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 12:08:30 -0500

At 6:36 PM 7/24/96, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Wed Jul 24 17:51:53 1996
>>
>> >Yes.
>> >For me it sounds as more convincing reason (plus socialism, of course...).
>> >
>> >-- Zenon
>>
>> Socialism saying everyone should be rewarded equally regardless of effort
>> or investment.  Greed saying, I don't want to lose out and I want some of
>> whatever you get.
>>
>Nice to hear that at least some Americans know what socialism means ;-))
>Unfortunately, from my contacts with a number of them Americans,
>and from observing the evolution of US social and political system
>it seems that you are a minority (and threatened by extinction)...
>
>Here goes some amusing characterization of various political systems
>I have found recently on Objectivists pages:

[...]

>-Zenon


Loved the list!

Given the types of Americans that ran over to the former Soviet [er]
'client states'  to try to convince you of how great the third
path  could be.  I'm suprized you
don't think the U.S. is filled with loonitics with PhD's!

Hint:  We do have clever people over hear.  Most get paid a fourtune to
stay here and say things that are actually usefull!



> Note also, that what you Americans call Liberalism
> is called Socialdemocracy in Europe.
> It is Socialism pretending to be not,
> and concealing the socialist doings by
> very intricate "democratic" (in fact, bureaucratic) procedures.

Thats more literally true then you might think.  The U.S. had a
socialist/comunist party in the 20's and thirties that was very popular
among a lot of elete university and idle rich folks that should have known
better.  (Same as everywhere.  Arrogent rich and powerfull folks who are
sure people would all be happy if forced to lived like they wanted them
to.)  Anyway said com/soc party didn't do very well in elections, and
became very unpopular during the wars (WW-II and Cold).  But if you look at
the party platforms in the 20's and 30's.  They were detailing the
structure of the current welfare state in the U.S.  Effectively they were
rejected, but their ideas were picked up by the democrates.

For some reason they never seem to give the com/socialists credit in their
speaches.  ;)

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
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        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: Socialism and others
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 96 19:53:34 +0200

> From kgstar@most.fw.hac.com Wed Jul 24 19:11:36 1996
> 
> Loved the list!
> 
You are welcome!


> Given the types of Americans that ran over to the former Soviet [er]
> 'client states'  to try to convince you of how great the third
> path  could be.  I'm suprized you
> don't think the U.S. is filled with loonitics with PhD's!
> 
In fact, exactly pupils of theirs made the anticommunist
revolution in our countries.
The result - Socialdemocracy+Capitalismo and the return
of post-commies to the rule after several years.
Ahh, of course, along the way the "anticommunists" 
got quite rich and powerful...


> Hint:  We do have clever people over hear.  Most get paid a fourtune to
> stay here and say things that are actually usefull!
> 
Do not develop an inferiority complex  ;-)
Here people like me are also a minority,
called "zoological anticommunists", "loonies", and many
other colorful names, hardly possible to translate into English.
Most of us went extinct long ago or fled abroad
(mostly to US, though now Australia is more popular - less socialist...)


> > Note also, that what you Americans call Liberalism
> > is called Socialdemocracy in Europe.
> > It is Socialism pretending to be not,
> > and concealing the socialist doings by
> > very intricate "democratic" (in fact, bureaucratic) procedures.
> 
> Thats more literally true then you might think.  The U.S. had a
> socialist/comunist party in the 20's and thirties that was very popular
> among a lot of elete university and idle rich folks that should have known
> better.  (Same as everywhere.  Arrogent rich and powerfull folks who are
> sure people would all be happy if forced to lived like they wanted them
> to.)  Anyway said com/soc party didn't do very well in elections, and
> became very unpopular during the wars (WW-II and Cold).  But if you look at
> the party platforms in the 20's and 30's.  They were detailing the
> structure of the current welfare state in the U.S.  Effectively they were
> rejected, but their ideas were picked up by the democrates.
> 
Guess I have known that...  :-))


> For some reason they never seem to give the com/socialists credit in their
> speaches.  ;)
> 
Just like here...

Speaking of words ("Liberalism" to (re)name "Socialdemocracy" 
to (re)name "Socialism"), quite a study of Newspeak can be done here
(remember "1984"? - it is more true to reality than you might think...).
There are certain innocent-looking words that in fact
are "negating words". Before, such one was just "socialist":
"socialist democracy" = "no democracy",
"socialist justice" = "no justice", etc. etc.
Now it is simply "social":
"social justice" = "injustice" (note the progress...),
"social market economy" = "capitalismo", etc.

-- Zenon

From popserver Thu Jul 25 05:12:16 GMT 1996
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	["1071" "Wed" "24" "July" "1996" "22:05:29" "-0400" "Philip Bakelaar" "pbakelaar@exit109.com" nil "34" "I am lost!" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa), KellySt@aol.com,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: I am lost!
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 22:05:29 -0400

OK.. i have several questions.

  Guys, please tell me that all this knowledge (ya know,
  the political jokes and all this science stuff) comes
  with age? I really hope so.

  Kelly, is there anything I can do to help with the 
  homepage? I can't remember if you actually asked me
  to do anything.

  I am all for the mailing list. As for the AOL idea,
  it would be just as good. AOL always gets bashed, 
  but they really don't have much problems. Still,
  the dedicated server HAS to be better than AOL.

  I also REALLY like the idea of also getting a
  multi-letter digest weekly. We do cover so 
  much, and even now, I can't remember all that
  we (well, actually, *you*, not me) have 
  talked about in the last 2 days (50 letters!)

  Kelly, are you *THE* senior systems engineer
  for Magnavox, or are you *A* senior systems
  engineer.

  David, (and Kev, or was it Kelly), who have
  worked at JSC, is that a good job? It
  sounds like a lot of fun, (relatively
  speaking, of course), and it IS good pay,
  right?

Thats all I can think of for now.

Ben

From popserver Thu Jul 25 05:12:32 GMT 1996
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	["1437" "Wed" "24" "July" "1996" "21:34:39" "-0700" "Kevin Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "39" "Re: I am lost!" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
To: Philip Bakelaar 
CC: Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@WOLFENET.COM,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@COMPUSERVE.COM, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET
Subject: Re: I am lost!
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 21:34:39 -0700

Philip Bakelaar wrote:
> 
> OK.. i have several questions.
> 
>   Guys, please tell me that all this knowledge (ya know,
>   the political jokes and all this science stuff) comes
>   with age? I really hope so.

yeah, it's the only positive thing about growing old and ugly.  ;)



>   David, (and Kev, or was it Kelly), who have
>   worked at JSC, is that a good job? It

It Kelly,  I work for another Goverment Agency, Defense Contracting 
Management Command. We're the guys who's job it is to add so many 
extra regulations and such on top of the contractors so they don't 
make too much profit when they sell the US a $400.00 hammer.  :)

>   sounds like a lot of fun, (relatively
>   speaking, of course), and it IS good pay,
>   right?

I wouldn't really say it's good pay, but The benifits are good, and 
as long as the budget is solid, you have a lot of security.  Someone 
in my office said the only way he could be fired is if he was caught 
in bed with the commander's under-aged son.



-- 
Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html

Every time a third party candidate comes up, both major parties say:
"You can't vote for him, you'll just be handing the election to the other guy"
Well, Democrat and Republican are just two different names for the same thief, 
So what does it really matter?  This time I'm voting Libertarian.
Harry Browne for President.  http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/   (800) 682-1776

From popserver Thu Jul 25 05:12:47 GMT 1996
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From: KellySt@aol.com
To: pbakelaar@exit109.com, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: Re: I am lost!
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 00:05:10 -0400

From:  pbakelaar@exit109.com

Warning.  Comunications from me from my office may become erratic.  I think
my office systems hard drive is dieing (its starting to forget where
directories and files are.  you can open the folders and see the contents,
but not access or delete them.  Oh, yes and E-mail has crashed.

I'm glad I uploaded the draft LITstuff to Daves machine.  Ah, Dave, did you
do something?  Or did I wipe out the starship design stuff?!!  Oh well I have
back-ups 

;)


> OK.. i have several questions.

>  Guys, please tell me that all this knowledge (ya know,
>  the political jokes and all this science stuff) comes
>  with age? I really hope so.

Live a while, pay attention, and don't forget the interesting bits and you
learn stuff.  Otherwise you make a dumb corpse.  ;)  I also read a lot of
different stuff and have a good memory.

>  Kelly, is there anything I can do to help with the 
>  homepage? I can't remember if you actually asked me
>  to do anything.

The home page is ok (give or take a fried hard drive).  The sub levels need
more work.  The library web page lists need sorting out bad, and we need more
listings for marine stuff.  You can take a shot at that.  Ric Hedman e-mailed
me with a couple of URLs that would be a good start (you guessed it they are
on my office workstation).  If I can get to them I'll forward them to you.
 Check In Yahoo and stuff if you want.  Thats all that comes to mind.

>  I am all for the mailing list. As for the AOL idea,
>  it would be just as good. AOL always gets bashed, 
>  but they really don't have much problems. Still,
>  the dedicated server HAS to be better than AOL.

>  I also REALLY like the idea of also getting a
>  multi-letter digest weekly. We do cover so 
>  much, and even now, I can't remember all that
>  we (well, actually, *you*, not me) have 
>  talked about in the last 2 days (50 letters!)

We really need to get the newsletter system settled out.  And start archiving
stuff.  I also think the weekly digest is a great idea!

>  Kelly, are you *THE* senior systems engineer
>  for Magnavox, or are you *A* senior systems
>  engineer.

A senior systems engineer.

>  David, (and Kev, or was it Kelly), who have
>  worked at JSC, is that a good job? It
>  sounds like a lot of fun, (relatively
>  speaking, of course), and it IS good pay,  right?

Pay wasn't the best.  Sometimes it was pretty good, sometimes they cut
corners.  Depends on how well the company was doing on its contracting, and
how well NASA was being funded.  The technical compitence of people wasn't
nearly as good as I had expected.   On the other hand if your interested in
space (like me) its a serious high to be bumping into astrounauts in the hall
routinely, and watching space flights from the backrooms at mission control.
 At the time I left.  I had designed and writen 1/5th of the shuttle crew
activity flight planing system.  So historical things were happening and my
stuff was in the middle of it helping to schedule it.


> Thats all I can think of for now.

> Ben

Night 

Kelly

From popserver Thu Jul 25 05:58:49 GMT 1996
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	["798" "Wed" "24" "July" "1996" "22:54:17" "-0700" "Ric Rddesign Denisse Hedman" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" nil "29" "Marine  stuff" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric & Denisse Hedman)
To: stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        David@InterWorld.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: Marine  stuff
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 22:54:17 -0700 (PDT)

Here are a listing of marine related sites on the web....

http://bramble.er.usgs.gov/intro/woodshole/whwebservers.html

http://bramble.er.usgs.gov/intro/usgscenter/

http://marine.usgs.gov/projects96/projlist96-too.html

http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/students/ashley/Sonar/gal.html

http://woodshole.er.usgs.gov/epubs/publications/

http://inlet.geol.sc.edu/tappa/msci/home.htm

http://earth.leeds.ac.uk/research/seddies/base.html

http://earth.leeds.ac.uk/mgg/mgg.html

http://www.yahoo.com/Regional/Countries/Canada/Science/Earth_Sciences/Oceano
graphy/

http://www.yahoo.com/Regional/Countries/Canada/Science/Earth_Sciences/Geolog
y_and_Geophysics/

http://www.gnatnet.net:80/~hotrod/

enough for now......have fun..
Ric
Visit RD Designs Home Page at:..http://www.wolfenet.com/~rddesign/Rddesign.htm

From popserver Thu Jul 25 15:55:29 GMT 1996
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	["821" "Thu" "25" "July" "1996" "14:05:19" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "21" "Weekly newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Weekly newsletter
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 14:05:19 +0100

>From Kelly
>>From:  Ben
>>  I also REALLY like the idea of also getting a
>>  multi-letter digest weekly. We do cover so 
>>  much, and even now, I can't remember all that
>>  we (well, actually, *you*, not me) have 
>>  talked about in the last 2 days (50 letters!)
>
>We really need to get the newsletter system settled out.  And start archiving
>stuff.  I also think the weekly digest is a great idea!

Please help me out here, I'm not sure what both of you (and others) mean
with a "weekly digest".

- Do you mean you don't want daily letters anymore?
- Do you still want daily letters but also a big letter at the week-end
  composed of all the smaller letters?
- Do you still want daily letters but also at the end of the week some
  handy summary/abstract of everything (useful) that has been discussed?

Timothy

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From: David Levine 
To: "'pbakelaar@exit109.com'" ,
        "'zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl'" ,
        "'hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu'" ,
        "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'" ,
        "'stevev@efn.org'" ,
        "'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'" 
To: "'zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl'" ,
        "'rddesign@wolfenet.com'"
	 ,
        "'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'"
	 ,
        "'KellySt@aol.com'"
	 
Subject: RE: I am lost!
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 09:49:46 -0400


>I'm glad I uploaded the draft LITstuff to Daves machine.  Ah, Dave, did
>you
>do something?  Or did I wipe out the starship design stuff?!!  Oh well
>I have
>back-ups 

Is something wrong with my system?  I'll check it out.  I -do- have a
backup
of the system from two days ago, so we're okay if anything IS wrong.


>>  David, (and Kev, or was it Kelly), who have
>>  worked at JSC, is that a good job? It
>>  sounds like a lot of fun, (relatively
>>  speaking, of course), and it IS good pay,  right?

I worked for a contractor, not the government, although I
did work onsite.  Pay was okay, not wonderful.  I met a
lot of cool people and felt that I -did- contribute something
while there, but got really annoyed at some of the downright
silly things that went on there.  Imagine 20,000 people
all believing they're in charge.


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From: David Levine 
To: "'Brandon Neill'" ,
        "'Steve VanDevender'"
	 ,
        David Levine 
Cc: "'Philip Bakelaar'" ,
        "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'"
	 ,
        "'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'"
	 ,
        "'Zenon Kulpa'" ,
        "'KellySt@aol.com'" ,
        "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'" 
Cc: "'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'" ,
        "'rddesign@WOLFENET.COM'" ,
        "'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" ,
        "'DotarSojat@aol.com'" ,
        "'sl0c8@cc.usu.edu'" ,
        "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'" 
Cc: "'mkshp@IONET.NET'" 
Subject: RE: minor stuff...
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 09:56:33 -0400

>P.S. I've been thinking about something for the future of LIT that
>addresses
>all the various offers.  More on this tomorrow (or maybe later today)
>as I
>try to write down what I've been thinking about.

Okay, okay, it's been longer than I said it would
be (as usual).

Here's what I was thinking:
I'd like to have LIT spread out among everyone
who wants to "have" a piece of it.  There would
be a central site, and a lot of "satellite" sites.
The links back and forth would make it look
seamless.  Each person would be able to
maintain the part that is on their site.  Each
part would be on a different subject.  Spreading
it out like this would also make a "disaster"
(i.e. a crash or someone leaving, or whatever)
cause much less damage to the whole... only
to one part.

In any case, I'm all for Steve's mailing list.


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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
Cc: Philip Bakelaar ,
        Zenon Kulpa , KellySt@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@WOLFENET.COM,
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        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@IONET.NET
Subject: Re: I am lost!
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 09:56:33 -0500

At 9:34 PM 7/24/96, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote:
>Philip Bakelaar wrote:
>>
>> OK.. i have several questions.
>>
>>   Guys, please tell me that all this knowledge (ya know,
>>   the political jokes and all this science stuff) comes
>>   with age? I really hope so.
>
>yeah, it's the only positive thing about growing old and ugly.  ;)
>
>
>
>>   David, (and Kev, or was it Kelly), who have
>>   worked at JSC, is that a good job? It
>
>It Kelly,  I work for another Goverment Agency, Defense Contracting
>Management Command. We're the guys who's job it is to add so many
>extra regulations and such on top of the contractors so they don't
>make too much profit when they sell the US a $400.00 hammer.  :)

What he doesn't say, is that the $400 hammers cost $10 with $390 of
administration overhead charges, which cover the cost of filling out all
the paperwork for his agency.  ;)


>>   sounds like a lot of fun, (relatively
>>   speaking, of course), and it IS good pay,
>>   right?
>
>I wouldn't really say it's good pay, but The benifits are good, and
>as long as the budget is solid, you have a lot of security.  Someone
>in my office said the only way he could be fired is if he was caught
>in bed with the commander's under-aged son.
>
>
>
>--
>Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html


With government agancies like that it takes so much trouble to fire
someone, that they just stuff you in a cornar and wait for you to retire.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Thu Jul 25 15:56:06 GMT 1996
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: Weekly newsletter
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 09:59:00 -0500

At 2:05 PM 7/25/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>>From Kelly
>>>From:  Ben
>>>  I also REALLY like the idea of also getting a
>>>  multi-letter digest weekly. We do cover so
>>>  much, and even now, I can't remember all that
>>>  we (well, actually, *you*, not me) have
>>>  talked about in the last 2 days (50 letters!)
>>
>>We really need to get the newsletter system settled out.  And start archiving
>>stuff.  I also think the weekly digest is a great idea!
>
>Please help me out here, I'm not sure what both of you (and others) mean
>with a "weekly digest".
>
>- Do you mean you don't want daily letters anymore?
>- Do you still want daily letters but also a big letter at the week-end
>  composed of all the smaller letters?
>- Do you still want daily letters but also at the end of the week some
>  handy summary/abstract of everything (useful) that has been discussed?
>
>Timothy

Some people might want daily letter, some weekly collections.  Both could
be avalible to subscribers.  The later would be filed on line for web
access by cyber surfers.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Thu Jul 25 15:56:07 GMT 1996
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: Weekly newsletter
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 10:03:22 -0500

At 2:05 PM 7/25/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>>From Kelly
>>>From:  Ben
>>>  I also REALLY like the idea of also getting a
>>>  multi-letter digest weekly. We do cover so
>>>  much, and even now, I can't remember all that
>>>  we (well, actually, *you*, not me) have
>>>  talked about in the last 2 days (50 letters!)
>>
>>We really need to get the newsletter system settled out.  And start archiving
>>stuff.  I also think the weekly digest is a great idea!
>
>Please help me out here, I'm not sure what both of you (and others) mean
>with a "weekly digest".
>
>- Do you mean you don't want daily letters anymore?
>- Do you still want daily letters but also a big letter at the week-end
>  composed of all the smaller letters?
>- Do you still want daily letters but also at the end of the week some
>  handy summary/abstract of everything (useful) that has been discussed?
>
>Timothy


P.S.
A summary abstract of the interesting bits in our correspondence would be
great!!  We cover so much stuff in the various newsletter, we could write
text books on the subject (assuming we could hire a librarian!).  But its a
pain to search all that (even just the weeklies), and I doubt we could get
anyone to spend the time.  If anyone has an Idea on how to do it let me
know.  What could we do, set up alt.space.starships?

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Thu Jul 25 15:56:09 GMT 1996
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	["1595" "Thu" "25" "July" "1996" "10:11:39" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "45" "RE: minor stuff..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David Levine 
Cc: "'Brandon Neill'" ,
        "'Steve VanDevender'"		 ,
        David Levine ,
        "'Philip Bakelaar'" ,
        "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'"		 ,
        "'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'"		 ,
        "'Zenon Kulpa'" ,
        "'KellySt@aol.com'" ,
        "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'" 
Subject: RE: minor stuff...
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 10:11:39 -0500

At 9:56 AM 7/25/96, David Levine wrote:
>>P.S. I've been thinking about something for the future of LIT that
>>addresses
>>all the various offers.  More on this tomorrow (or maybe later today)
>>as I
>>try to write down what I've been thinking about.
>
>Okay, okay, it's been longer than I said it would
>be (as usual).
>
>Here's what I was thinking:
>I'd like to have LIT spread out among everyone
>who wants to "have" a piece of it.  There would
>be a central site, and a lot of "satellite" sites.
>The links back and forth would make it look
>seamless.  Each person would be able to
>maintain the part that is on their site.  Each
>part would be on a different subject.  Spreading
>it out like this would also make a "disaster"
>(i.e. a crash or someone leaving, or whatever)
>cause much less damage to the whole... only
>to one part.
>
>In any case, I'm all for Steve's mailing list.


I could go for various people working on various parts and submiting them.
But everyone keeping there part on there system worries me.  It would
almost gaurentee something was broken or incompatable.  Also a lot of us
(even in the core group) have school accounts which come and go.  Might
work real well for development thou.  Assuming we were really good at
coordination.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Thu Jul 25 16:06:23 GMT 1996
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	["2578" "Thu" "25" "July" "1996" "10:45:49" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "68" "RE: minor stuff..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@interworld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        pbakelaar@exit109.com, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        mkshp@ionet.net (Brian Mansur)
Subject: RE: minor stuff...
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 10:45:49 -0500

>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 10:11:40 -0500
>To:David Levine 
>From:kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
>Subject:RE: minor stuff...
>Cc:'Brandon Neill' , 'Steve VanDevender'		
>, David Levine , 'Philip Bakelaar'
>, 'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'		
>, 'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'		
>, 'Zenon Kulpa' ,
>"'KellySt@aol.com'" ,
>"'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"
>
>
>At 9:56 AM 7/25/96, David Levine wrote:
>>>P.S. I've been thinking about something for the future of LIT that
>>>addresses
>>>all the various offers.  More on this tomorrow (or maybe later today)
>>>as I
>>>try to write down what I've been thinking about.
>>
>>Okay, okay, it's been longer than I said it would
>>be (as usual).
>>
>>Here's what I was thinking:
>>I'd like to have LIT spread out among everyone
>>who wants to "have" a piece of it.  There would
>>be a central site, and a lot of "satellite" sites.
>>The links back and forth would make it look
>>seamless.  Each person would be able to
>>maintain the part that is on their site.  Each
>>part would be on a different subject.  Spreading
>>it out like this would also make a "disaster"
>>(i.e. a crash or someone leaving, or whatever)
>>cause much less damage to the whole... only
>>to one part.
>>
>>In any case, I'm all for Steve's mailing list.
>
>
>I could go for various people working on various parts and submiting them.
>But everyone keeping there part on there system worries me.  It would
>almost gaurentee something was broken or incompatable.  Also a lot of us
>(even in the core group) have school accounts which come and go.  Might
>work real well for development thou.  Assuming we were really good at
>coordination.
>
>Kelly


One P.S.
We could move all or most of lit to Kevins machine and get access account
to it.  That way his server would be a central site, but everyone (who had
aranged to) could get in to maintain parts.  (I beleave this isn't
posssible at SunSite.  We could leave it there, or use it as a mirror and
upload stable versions to SunSite.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Thu Jul 25 17:02:12 GMT 1996
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	["1785" "Thu" "25" "July" "1996" "10:00:14" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "37" "RE: minor stuff..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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In-Reply-To: 
References: 
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: David Levine 
Cc: "'Brandon Neill'" ,
        "'Steve VanDevender'"
	 ,
        "'Philip Bakelaar'" ,
        "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'"
	 ,
        "'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'"
	 ,
        "'Zenon Kulpa'" ,
        "'KellySt@aol.com'" ,
        "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'" ,
        "'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'" ,
        "'rddesign@WOLFENET.COM'" ,
        "'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" ,
        "'DotarSojat@aol.com'" ,
        "'sl0c8@cc.usu.edu'" ,
        "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'" ,
        "'mkshp@IONET.NET'" 
Subject: RE: minor stuff...
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 10:00:14 -0700

David Levine writes:
 > Here's what I was thinking:
 > I'd like to have LIT spread out among everyone
 > who wants to "have" a piece of it.  There would
 > be a central site, and a lot of "satellite" sites.
 > The links back and forth would make it look
 > seamless.  Each person would be able to
 > maintain the part that is on their site.  Each
 > part would be on a different subject.  Spreading
 > it out like this would also make a "disaster"
 > (i.e. a crash or someone leaving, or whatever)
 > cause much less damage to the whole... only
 > to one part.

This is quite reminiscent of the DoomWeb project that I am slightly
affiliated with.  They have a mailing list and a central web site that
has some central services and links to other individually-maintained
pages.  I was invited to join their mailing list because I created a
Linux DOOM FAQ web page that they wanted to link to from their site main
site (http://doomgate.cs.buffalo.edu, soon to be http://www.gamers.org).
Other people maintain other FAQ pages served from their individual sites
for various DOOM versions, and pages for related topics like level
editing, deathmatch tournaments, and so on.  While it hasn't been very
active lately, it has worked out quite well.

I agree that a certain amount of coordination is necessary to make
something like this work.  There are advantages to 

 > In any case, I'm all for Steve's mailing list.

I think the main question in my mind is what you want to call the
mailing list.  I've proposed "mini-lit" and "starship-design", or we
could have a (hopefully brief) proposal and voting process.

I will also look into the two major options I have, of either hosting
the list on my own machine or seeing if I can have it set up as a
Majordomo list on darkwing.uoregon.edu.

From popserver Thu Jul 25 17:07:19 GMT 1996
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	["591" "Thu" "25" "July" "1996" "13:02:40" "-0400" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "16" "RE: minor stuff..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: David Levine 
To: "'Steve VanDevender'" 
Cc: "'Brandon Neill'" ,
        "'Philip Bakelaar'"
	 ,
        "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'"
	 ,
        "'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'"
	 ,
        "'Zenon Kulpa'" ,
        "'KellySt@aol.com'" 
Cc: "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'"
	 ,
        "'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'" ,
        "'rddesign@WOLFENET.COM'" ,
        "'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" ,
        "'DotarSojat@aol.com'" ,
        "'sl0c8@cc.usu.edu'" 
Cc: "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'" ,
        "'mkshp@IONET.NET'" 
Subject: RE: minor stuff...
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 13:02:40 -0400

>I think the main question in my mind is what you want to call the
>mailing list.  I've proposed "mini-lit" and "starship-design", or we
>could have a (hopefully brief) proposal and voting process.

starship-design sounds fine to me - probably to Kelly, too, as we know
he doesn't like "lit"...

>I will also look into the two major options I have, of either hosting
>the list on my own machine or seeing if I can have it set up as a
>Majordomo list on darkwing.uoregon.edu.

I would think that using Majordomo would be easier for you, as
maintenance
would be much more automatic...

-David

From popserver Thu Jul 25 17:32:30 GMT 1996
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	["853" "Thu" "25" "July" "1996" "19:25:59" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "21" "Re: Weekly newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: Weekly newsletter
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 19:25:59 +0100

To Kelly:

>>- Do you mean you don't want daily letters anymore?
>>- Do you still want daily letters but also a big letter at the week-end
>>  composed of all the smaller letters?
>>- Do you still want daily letters but also at the end of the week some
>>  handy summary/abstract of everything (useful) that has been discussed?
>
>Some people might want daily letter, some weekly collections.  Both could
>be avalible to subscribers.  The later would be filed on line for web
>access by cyber surfers.

So you are saying that YOU (who writes every day) actually would like to
read & reply all the letters once a week, instead of (y)our daily letters?
I'm amazed that you would say this or do you just mean that it is a great
idea for OTHERS to use?

Timothy

P.S. About summaries, it's needless to say that it is not the easiest and
most pleasant task.

From popserver Thu Jul 25 17:32:32 GMT 1996
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	["1286" "Thu" "25" "July" "1996" "12:23:58" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" "" "37" "RE: minor stuff..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: David Levine 
Cc: "'Steve VanDevender'" ,
        "'Brandon Neill'" ,
        "'Philip Bakelaar'"		 ,
        "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'"		 ,
        "'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'"		 ,
        "'Zenon Kulpa'" ,
        "'KellySt@aol.com'" 
Subject: RE: minor stuff...
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 12:23:58 -0500

At 1:02 PM 7/25/96, David Levine wrote:
>>I think the main question in my mind is what you want to call the
>>mailing list.  I've proposed "mini-lit" and "starship-design", or we
>>could have a (hopefully brief) proposal and voting process.
>
>starship-design sounds fine to me - probably to Kelly, too, as we know
>he doesn't like "lit"...

Also we might want to start newsletters for the other 3 main sections
(assuming they get active.).  Having post for marine topic show up in
starship design would be confusing.

>>I will also look into the two major options I have, of either hosting
>>the list on my own machine or seeing if I can have it set up as a
>>Majordomo list on darkwing.uoregon.edu.
>
>I would think that using Majordomo would be easier for you, as
>maintenance
>would be much more automatic...
>
>-David

Majordomo would be easier and more flexible.  Would darkwing.uoregon.edu be
a perminent site, or would it expore at semesters end?

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Thu Jul 25 17:32:33 GMT 1996
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	["933" "Thu" "25" "July" "1996" "19:26:05" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "21" "Site-spreading" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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Mime-Version: 1.0
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Site-spreading
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 19:26:05 +0100

David wrote:
>Here's what I was thinking:
>I'd like to have LIT spread out among everyone
>who wants to "have" a piece of it.  There would
>be a central site, and a lot of "satellite" sites.
>The links back and forth would make it look
>seamless.  Each person would be able to
>maintain the part that is on their site.  Each
>part would be on a different subject.

One still would need a central homepage OR multiple ones. The latter would
be the only solution to be invulnerable to crashes. The homepage wouldn't
need to be updated after every little change, since everyone has his own
subsection in which the most changes would take place.
Personally I like this system of satellite sites, it may be a bit more work
for us all, but less for one person in particular. Besides that it gives
people a little bit more freedom.
Of course if we have one site that is maintained well, the need for
satellite sites would be less.

Timothy

From popserver Thu Jul 25 17:42:44 GMT 1996
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	["516" "Thu" "25" "July" "1996" "19:37:04" "+0200" "Zenon Kulpa" "zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl" "<9607251737.AA07495@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl>" "14" "RE: minor stuff..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
To: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: RE: minor stuff...
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 96 19:37:04 +0200

> From David@InterWorld.com Thu Jul 25 19:02:28 1996
> 
> >I think the main question in my mind is what you want to call the
> >mailing list.  I've proposed "mini-lit" and "starship-design", or we
> >could have a (hopefully brief) proposal and voting process.
> 
> starship-design sounds fine to me - probably to Kelly, too, as we know
> he doesn't like "lit"...
> 
Ahh, but what abot LIT having also Marine, Near Earth, 
and Solar System Development sections?
Should they maintain separate mailing lists?

-- Zenon

From popserver Thu Jul 25 18:02:59 GMT 1996
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	["310" "Thu" "25" "July" "1996" "11:00:35" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "8" "RE: minor stuff..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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In-Reply-To: 
References: 
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
Cc: David Levine ,
        "'Steve VanDevender'" ,
        "'Brandon Neill'" ,
        "'Philip Bakelaar'"		 ,
        "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'"		 ,
        "'Zenon Kulpa'" ,
        "'KellySt@aol.com'" 
Subject: RE: minor stuff...
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 11:00:35 -0700

Kelly Starks writes:
 > Majordomo would be easier and more flexible.  Would darkwing.uoregon.edu be
 > a perminent site, or would it expore at semesters end?
 > 
 > Kelly

I am not a student; I am staff at the University of Oregon Computing
Center.  My accounts don't go away at the end of terms or semesters.

From popserver Thu Jul 25 18:13:07 GMT 1996
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	["1475" "Thu" "25" "July" "1996" "13:02:31" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "40" "Re: Weekly newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: Weekly newsletter
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 13:02:31 -0500

At 7:25 PM 7/25/96, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>To Kelly:
>
>>>- Do you mean you don't want daily letters anymore?
>>>- Do you still want daily letters but also a big letter at the week-end
>>>  composed of all the smaller letters?
>>>- Do you still want daily letters but also at the end of the week some
>>>  handy summary/abstract of everything (useful) that has been discussed?
>>
>>Some people might want daily letter, some weekly collections.  Both could
>>be avalible to subscribers.  The later would be filed on line for web
>>access by cyber surfers.
>
>So you are saying that YOU (who writes every day) actually would like to
>read & reply all the letters once a week, instead of (y)our daily letters?
>I'm amazed that you would say this or do you just mean that it is a great
>idea for OTHERS to use?

At the moment.  I have a lot of free time at work.  But back when I didn't,
I found the weeklys more convent.  So I figure both are usefull options.

>Timothy
>
>P.S. About summaries, it's needless to say that it is not the easiest and
>most pleasant task.

Yeah its a great idea, but I'm sure none of use would do it relyably.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Thu Jul 25 18:28:19 GMT 1996
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	["916" "Thu" "25" "July" "1996" "11:22:26" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" nil "19" "RE: minor stuff..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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In-Reply-To: <9607251737.AA07495@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl>
References: <9607251737.AA07495@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl>
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@interworld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        sl0c8@cc.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: RE: minor stuff...
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 11:22:26 -0700

Zenon Kulpa writes:
 > > From David@InterWorld.com Thu Jul 25 19:02:28 1996
 > > 
 > > >I think the main question in my mind is what you want to call the
 > > >mailing list.  I've proposed "mini-lit" and "starship-design", or we
 > > >could have a (hopefully brief) proposal and voting process.
 > > 
 > > starship-design sounds fine to me - probably to Kelly, too, as we know
 > > he doesn't like "lit"...
 > > 
 > Ahh, but what abot LIT having also Marine, Near Earth, 
 > and Solar System Development sections?
 > Should they maintain separate mailing lists?

I will immediately state that my offer is to manage a list specifically
for the Starship Design group that has been mailing each other with big
CC: lines for the past several months.  At the very least I only want to
maintain one list, although if we want to slightly expand the topic of
that list to cover those other areas that would be fine with me.

From popserver Thu Jul 25 18:33:25 GMT 1996
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	["762" "Thu" "25" "July" "1996" "13:24:40" "-0500" "Kelly Starks" "kgstar@most.fw.hac.com" nil "24" "RE: minor stuff..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Steve VanDevender 
Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39),
        David Levine ,
        "'Steve VanDevender'" ,
        "'Brandon Neill'" ,
        "'Philip Bakelaar'"		 ,
        "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'"		 ,
        "'Zenon Kulpa'" ,
        "'KellySt@aol.com'" 
Subject: RE: minor stuff...
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 13:24:40 -0500

At 11:00 AM 7/25/96, Steve VanDevender wrote:
>Kelly Starks writes:
> > Majordomo would be easier and more flexible.  Would darkwing.uoregon.edu be
> > a perminent site, or would it expore at semesters end?
> >
> > Kelly
>
>I am not a student; I am staff at the University of Oregon Computing
>Center.  My accounts don't go away at the end of terms or semesters.

Ah, good point.  I didn't remember you were computer center staff.

Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kelly Starks                       Internet: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
Sr. Systems Engineer
Magnavox Electronic Systems Company
(Magnavox URL: http://www.fw.hac.com/external.html)

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From popserver Thu Jul 25 18:48:42 GMT 1996
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	["618" "Thu" "25" "July" "1996" "14:43:10" "-0400" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" "" "15" "RE: minor stuff..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: David Levine 
To: "'zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl'" ,
        "'Steve VanDevender'" 
Cc: "'KellySt@aol.com'" ,
        "'hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu'"
	 ,
        "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'" ,
        "'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'" ,
        "'zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl'" ,
        "'rddesign@wolfenet.com'" 
Cc: "'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" ,
        "'DotarSojat@aol.com'" ,
        "'sl0c8@cc.usu.edu'" ,
        "'101765.2200@compuserve.com'" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>,
        "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" ,
        "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'" 
Cc: "'pbakelaar@exit109.com'" ,
        "'mkshp@ionet.net'"
	 
Subject: RE: minor stuff...
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 14:43:10 -0400

> > Ahh, but what abot LIT having also Marine, Near Earth, 
> > and Solar System Development sections?
> > Should they maintain separate mailing lists?
>
>I will immediately state that my offer is to manage a list specifically
>for the Starship Design group that has been mailing each other with big
>CC: lines for the past several months.  At the very least I only want
>to
>maintain one list, although if we want to slightly expand the topic of
>that list to cover those other areas that would be fine with me.

I agree totally.  I'm more interested in the other sections
merely having pages.  Not mailing lists.

>

From popserver Thu Jul 25 18:48:43 GMT 1996
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	["164" "Thu" "25" "July" "1996" "14:44:58" "-0400" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "9" "RE: Weekly newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: David Levine 
To: "'KellySt@aol.com'" ,
        "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'"
	 ,
        "'stevev@efn.org'" ,
        "'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'" ,
        "'zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl'" ,
        "'hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu'" 
To: "'rddesign@wolfenet.com'" ,
        "'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" ,
        "'DotarSojat@aol.com'" ,
        "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'" ,
        "'101765.2200@compuserve.com'" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>,
        "'pbakelaar@exit109.com'" 
To: "'mkshp@ionet.net'" ,
        "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'" 
Subject: RE: Weekly newsletter
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 14:44:58 -0400

>P.S. About summaries, it's needless to say that it is not the easiest
>and
>most pleasant task.

Ah, that's what "freshman" are for.... Oh, Ben?

Just kidding.

>

From popserver Thu Jul 25 18:53:46 GMT 1996
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	["1125" "Thu" "25" "July" "1996" "11:50:50" "-0700" "Ric Rddesign Denisse Hedman" "rddesign@wolfenet.com" nil "29" "RE: minor stuff..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric & Denisse Hedman)
To: David Levine 
Cc: stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
        David@InterWorld.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: RE: minor stuff...
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 11:50:50 -0700 (PDT)

>>P.S. I've been thinking about something for the future of LIT that
>>addresses
>>all the various offers.  More on this tomorrow (or maybe later today)
>>as I
>>try to write down what I've been thinking about.
>
>Okay, okay, it's been longer than I said it would
>be (as usual).
>
>Here's what I was thinking:
>I'd like to have LIT spread out among everyone
>who wants to "have" a piece of it.  There would
>be a central site, and a lot of "satellite" sites.
>The links back and forth would make it look
>seamless.  Each person would be able to
>maintain the part that is on their site.  Each
>part would be on a different subject.  Spreading
>it out like this would also make a "disaster"
>(i.e. a crash or someone leaving, or whatever)
>cause much less damage to the whole... only
>to one part.
>
>In any case, I'm all for Steve's mailing list.
......................................................................
Isn't this what I suggested a few weeks ago......This is like the all the
links that make the submarine sites so great...

Ric
Visit RD Designs Home Page at:..http://www.wolfenet.com/~rddesign/Rddesign.htm

From popserver Thu Jul 25 19:44:23 GMT 1996
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	["921" "Thu" "25" "July" "1996" "14:23:27" "-0700" "Kevin Houston" "hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu" nil "26" "Re: Weekly newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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References: <199607251205.AA04010@driene.student.utwente.nl>
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From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
To: Timothy van der Linden 
CC: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@CompuServe.COM,
        pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: Weekly newsletter
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 14:23:27 -0700

Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>  
> Please help me out here, I'm not sure what both of you (and others) mean
> with a "weekly digest".
> 
> - Do you mean you don't want daily letters anymore?

It is a alot of e-mail, and it tends to de-evolve into chit-chat

> - Do you still want daily letters but also a big letter at the week-end
>   composed of all the smaller letters?

The chit-chat is nice, but i would like to see a return of the weekly monster
email that we used to get.  another solution would be to start a web-based bulletin
board like Dave had on the Alien Studies directory for LIT.

> - Do you still want daily letters but also at the end of the week some
>   handy summary/abstract of everything (useful) that has been discussed?
> 

Nice for us, but hard on the person who has to do the work of extracting.

-- 
Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html

PS, How was your trip to America?

From popserver Thu Jul 25 19:44:24 GMT 1996
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From: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" 
To: Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
CC: Timothy van der Linden ,
        KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@CompuServe.COM,
        pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@IONET.NET
Subject: Re: Weekly newsletter
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 14:30:43 -0700

Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
> 
> P.S.
> A summary abstract of the interesting bits in our correspondence would be
> great!!  We cover so much stuff in the various newsletter, we could write
> text books on the subject (assuming we could hire a librarian!).  But its a
> pain to search all that (even just the weeklies), and I doubt we could get
> anyone to spend the time.  If anyone has an Idea on how to do it let me
> know.  What could we do, set up alt.space.starships?
> 

Now there's a great idea.  What's involved in setting up a usenet group?
The only problem I'd see is there would be no archive.  unless one of us went and
saved all the messages ourselves.


-- 
Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html

From popserver Thu Jul 25 19:54:29 GMT 1996
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	["530" "Thu" "25" "July" "1996" "15:44:25" "-0400" "David Levine" "David@interworld.com" nil "13" "RE: Weekly newsletter" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: David Levine 
To: "'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'" ,
        "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'" 
Cc: "'Timothy van der Linden'" ,
        "'KellySt@aol.com'" ,
        "'stevev@efn.org'" ,
        "'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'" ,
        "'zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl'" ,
        "'rddesign@wolfenet.com'" 
Cc: "'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" ,
        "'DotarSojat@aol.com'" ,
        "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'" ,
        "'101765.2200@CompuServe.COM'" <101765.2200@CompuServe.COM>,
        "'pbakelaar@exit109.com'" ,
        "'mkshp@IONET.NET'" 
Subject: RE: Weekly newsletter
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 15:44:25 -0400

>> anyone to spend the time.  If anyone has an Idea on how to do it let me
>> know.  What could we do, set up alt.space.starships?
>> 
>
>Now there's a great idea.  What's involved in setting up a usenet
>group?
>The only problem I'd see is there would be no archive.  unless one of
>us went and
>saved all the messages ourselves.

This was brought up a few times a LONG time ago.  Basically the problem
is that not everyone gets all (or sometimes ANY) of the alt.* groups,
and it's --much-- harder to get a non-alt group formed.

From popserver Thu Jul 25 22:46:37 GMT 1996
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	["1297" "Thu" "25" "July" "1996" "18:43:17" "-0400" "Philip Bakelaar" "pbakelaar@exit109.com" nil "35" "Dave's great idea..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: David Levine ,
        "'Brandon Neill'" ,
        "'Steve VanDevender'" ,
        David Levine 
Cc: "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'" ,
        "'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'" ,
        "'Zenon Kulpa'" ,
        "'KellySt@aol.com'" ,
        "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'" 
Subject: Dave's great idea...
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:43:17 -0400

At 09:56 AM 7/25/96 -0400, David Levine wrote:
>>P.S. I've been thinking about something for the future of LIT that
>>addresses
>>all the various offers.  More on this tomorrow (or maybe later today)
>>as I
>>try to write down what I've been thinking about.
>
>Okay, okay, it's been longer than I said it would
>be (as usual).
>
>Here's what I was thinking:
>I'd like to have LIT spread out among everyone
>who wants to "have" a piece of it.  There would
>be a central site, and a lot of "satellite" sites.
>The links back and forth would make it look
>seamless.  Each person would be able to
>maintain the part that is on their site.  Each
>part would be on a different subject.  Spreading
>it out like this would also make a "disaster"
>(i.e. a crash or someone leaving, or whatever)
>cause much less damage to the whole... only
>to one part.
>
>In any case, I'm all for Steve's mailing list.

I love it!!!!!!!! Hopefully everyone else agrees.
I'll have to read the next 20 letters to find out,
but I think its a great idea! That way, not only
can people have a piece of the site, but they
can have a piece that they are interested in,
which means no one will sometime stop because
they got 2 bored. I guess there will be conflicts
in interest, and who hosts what page, but still
a great idea!


From popserver Thu Jul 25 22:51:40 GMT 1996
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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39),
        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
Cc: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
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        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: Weekly newsletter
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:45:29 -0400

At 10:03 AM 7/25/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote:
>>Please help me out here, I'm not sure what both of you (and others) mean
>>with a "weekly digest".
>>
>>- Do you mean you don't want daily letters anymore?
>>- Do you still want daily letters but also a big letter at the week-end
>>  composed of all the smaller letters?
>>- Do you still want daily letters but also at the end of the week some
>>  handy summary/abstract of everything (useful) that has been discussed?
>>
>>Timothy
>
>
>P.S.
>A summary abstract of the interesting bits in our correspondence would be
>great!!  We cover so much stuff in the various newsletter, we could write
>text books on the subject (assuming we could hire a librarian!).  But its a
>pain to search all that (even just the weeklies), and I doubt we could get
>anyone to spend the time.  If anyone has an Idea on how to do it let me
>know.  What could we do, set up alt.space.starships?
>
>Kelly

Guys, I would be willing to be your librarian! Seriously, I'm the ONLY
candidate for this, because every one else has jobs. I am great at 
summing up and sorting info, and I could make programs to help me...
Guys, i would LOVE this job! If anyone has objections, tell me..

From popserver Thu Jul 25 22:51:42 GMT 1996
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To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden),
        KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Re: Weekly newsletter
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:41:00 -0400

At 02:05 PM 7/25/96 +0100, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>>From Kelly
>>>From:  Ben
>>>  I also REALLY like the idea of also getting a
>>>  multi-letter digest weekly. We do cover so 
>>>  much, and even now, I can't remember all that
>>>  we (well, actually, *you*, not me) have 
>>>  talked about in the last 2 days (50 letters!)
>>
>>We really need to get the newsletter system settled out.  And start archiving
>>stuff.  I also think the weekly digest is a great idea!
>
>Please help me out here, I'm not sure what both of you (and others) mean
>with a "weekly digest".
>
>- Do you mean you don't want daily letters anymore?
>- Do you still want daily letters but also a big letter at the week-end
>  composed of all the smaller letters?
>- Do you still want daily letters but also at the end of the week some
>  handy summary/abstract of everything (useful) that has been discussed?
>
>Timothy

I meant that I wanted daily letters AS WELL AS a weekly summary of ALL 
the letters, so summaries.. I don't know how other people feel about it,
but that way whoever wants to can just delete all their mail for the
week and save the one weekly one.. I mean, I already have like 200-300
letters from you guys, but it could be compressed (weekly) into I 
guess 4 or 5 letters. Saves no space, but relieves the clutter. 

Thats IMHO. :)

Ben

From popserver Thu Jul 25 22:56:48 GMT 1996
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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: David Levine , "'KellySt@aol.com'" ,
        "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" ,
        "'stevev@efn.org'" ,
        "'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'" ,
        "'zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl'" ,
        "'hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu'" 
Subject: RE: Weekly newsletter
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:51:13 -0400

At 02:44 PM 7/25/96 -0400, David Levine wrote:
>Ah, that's what "freshman" are for.... Oh, Ben?
>
>Just kidding.

Hehe.. David, read my other letter. As I said, I would
be willing to do it, especially as I have the most time!

Ben

From popserver Thu Jul 25 23:01:50 GMT 1996
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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 
Cc: Timothy van der Linden ,
        KellySt@aol.com, stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@CompuServe.COM, mkshp@IONET.NET
Subject: Re: Weekly newsletter
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:53:47 -0400

At 02:30 PM 7/25/96 -0700, Kevin 'Tex' Houston wrote:
>Now there's a great idea.  What's involved in setting up a usenet group?
>The only problem I'd see is there would be no archive.  unless one of us
went and
>saved all the messages ourselves.
>
>
>-- 
>Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html

I could be responsible for librarian and archiver, especially
because I have a ZIP drive, and $20 bux for 100 megs I think
even my dad will pay once a month.. If that's enuff space.
Anyway, I will do that if you guys want, and I would like to
do it, cuz then it would give me chances when I'm done to
make programs to search it (which is good practice for me)
and eventually I might even develop something you guys
could use! :) Think seriously.. I want to do this. Lemme
know ASAP!

Ben


From popserver Thu Jul 25 23:01:52 GMT 1996
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From: David Levine 
To: "'Brandon Neill'" ,
        "'Steve VanDevender'"
	 ,
        "'Philip Bakelaar'" 
Cc: "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'" ,
        "'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'" ,
        "'Zenon Kulpa'" ,
        "'KellySt@aol.com'" ,
        "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'" 
Subject: RE: Dave's great idea...
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:58:16 -0400


>I love it!!!!!!!! Hopefully everyone else agrees.
>I'll have to read the next 20 letters to find out,

Just a quick comment, Ben.  You may want to hold
responses on a thread until you've read all the
messages waiting in your box with the same subject.
Cuts down on a multitude of small messages.

Perhaps we should ALL do this more often.

David

>
>

From popserver Thu Jul 25 23:17:05 GMT 1996
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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl (Zenon Kulpa), KellySt@aol.com,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl,
        stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl,
        rddesign@wolfenet.com, David@InterWorld.com,
        lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com, sl0c8@cc.usu.edu,
        101765.2200@compuserve.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: RE: minor stuff...
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:49:23 -0400

At 07:37 PM 7/25/96 +0200, Zenon Kulpa wrote:
>Ahh, but what abot LIT having also Marine, Near Earth, 
>and Solar System Development sections?
>Should they maintain separate mailing lists?
>
>-- Zenon

I think they should all be separate. Maybe we don't
have to get Steve to host all the other ones on
Majordomo right away, but definetely having 
separate ones is a good idea! Think about getting
30 letters a day (which I sometimes do from this
group), but multiply that by 4 or 5 groups, and
you HAVE to keep them separated!


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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: David Levine ,
        "'Brandon Neill'" ,
        "'Steve VanDevender'" 
Cc: "'Kevin 'Tex' Houston'" ,
        "'Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39'" ,
        "'Zenon Kulpa'" ,
        "'KellySt@aol.com'" ,
        "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'" 
Subject: RE: Dave's great idea...
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 19:22:46 -0400

At 06:58 PM 7/25/96 -0400, David Levine wrote:
>
>>I love it!!!!!!!! Hopefully everyone else agrees.
>>I'll have to read the next 20 letters to find out,
>
>Just a quick comment, Ben.  You may want to hold
>responses on a thread until you've read all the
>messages waiting in your box with the same subject.
>Cuts down on a multitude of small messages.
>
>Perhaps we should ALL do this more often.
>
>David

Yea, I usually try to. I don't know why I didn't
this time. I guess the sheer number (35 messages)
told me that I would forget my replies by the 
time I read all and then got back to my replies.

Sorry about that, David. I'll do that from now
on.. and your right, if everyone did that, it
would REALLY cut down on mail.

Ben

From popserver Thu Jul 25 23:37:21 GMT 1996
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	["1272" "Thu" "25" "July" "1996" "16:35:32" "-0700" "Steve VanDevender" "stevev@efn.org" "<199607252335.QAA10869@tzadkiel.efn.org>" "24" "RE: minor stuff..." "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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In-Reply-To: 
References: 
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: David Levine 
Cc: "'zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl'" ,
        "'Steve VanDevender'" ,
        "'KellySt@aol.com'" ,
        "'hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu'"
	 ,
        "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'" ,
        "'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'" ,
        "'zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl'" ,
        "'rddesign@wolfenet.com'" ,
        "'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" ,
        "'DotarSojat@aol.com'" ,
        "'sl0c8@cc.usu.edu'" ,
        "'101765.2200@compuserve.com'" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>,
        "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" ,
        "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'" ,
        "'pbakelaar@exit109.com'" ,
        "'mkshp@ionet.net'"
	 
Subject: RE: minor stuff...
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 16:35:32 -0700

David Levine writes:
 > > > Ahh, but what abot LIT having also Marine, Near Earth, 
 > > > and Solar System Development sections?
 > > > Should they maintain separate mailing lists?
 > >
 > >I will immediately state that my offer is to manage a list specifically
 > >for the Starship Design group that has been mailing each other with big
 > >CC: lines for the past several months.  At the very least I only want
 > >to
 > >maintain one list, although if we want to slightly expand the topic of
 > >that list to cover those other areas that would be fine with me.
 > 
 > I agree totally.  I'm more interested in the other sections
 > merely having pages.  Not mailing lists.

I have been told that the eligibility for running mailing lists on
lists.uoregon.edu is pretty liberal, and that I should have no trouble
setting up a majordomo list there.  I'm going to put in an application
through their web form and see what happens.  When everything goes
through I'll notify you all about the list subscription/unsubscription
procedures and any other relevant administrivia.  Since I am a system
administrator for that machine too I may be able to "preload" the list
with our current group of addresses so current members of the CC: group
won't have to subscribe themselves.

From popserver Fri Jul 26 02:00:39 GMT 1996
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	["3038" "Fri" "26" "July" "1996" "03:02:30" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "64" "Replies to Kevin and Ben" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil nil nil]
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Replies to Kevin and Ben
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 03:02:30 +0100

 Timothy replies to Kevin who wrote:
>Now there's a great idea.  What's involved in setting up a usenet group?
>The only problem I'd see is there would be no archive.  unless one of us
>went and saved all the messages ourselves.

I haven't used usenet much, but am told that unmoderated newsgroups are less
pleasant to write in than moderated(subscribe) ones.

=============================================================================

Timothy replies to Ben who wrote multiple messages:

>I could be responsible for librarian and archiver, especially
>because I have a ZIP drive, and $20 bux for 100 megs I think
>even my dad will pay once a month.. If that's enuff space.

Don't worry about buying zip-discs, all letters from the last year of SD
discussions are less than 5 Mb.

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

>Think about getting
>30 letters a day (which I sometimes do from this
>group), but multiply that by 4 or 5 groups, and
>you HAVE to keep them separated!

Think about having 400 members in this forum as soon as the LIT-site opens
up again. There are currently over 700 !!! people who ever tried to get
subscribed to the old (not working) newsletters. (Of course some might have
want to get unsubscribed, but where never able to).

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

>Guys, I would be willing to be your librarian! Seriously, I'm the ONLY
>candidate for this, because every one else has jobs. I am great at 
>summing up and sorting info, and I could make programs to help me...
>Guys, i would LOVE this job! If anyone has objections, tell me..

Make programs to help you? Do you know that much about neural-net programming?
Summarizing isn't just glueing everything together, some "chit-chat" may
have useful information that just isn't in any separate letter. You may need
to keep track of everything that is written in 100 letters, not an easy job.
The best that you probably could do is get rid of a lot of the quotings (you
might be able to write a program to help you with that) but of course
sometimes the quotings cannot just be left out.

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

>I meant that I wanted daily letters AS WELL AS a weekly summary of ALL 
>the letters, so summaries.. I don't know how other people feel about it,
>but that way whoever wants to can just delete all their mail for the
>week and save the one weekly one.. I mean, I already have like 200-300
>letters from you guys, but it could be compressed (weekly) into I 
>guess 4 or 5 letters. Saves no space, but relieves the clutter. 

I rather have the separate letters, makes searching a little bit easier
(assuming that people change the subject-line once in a while).

Since you are using Eudora, which has a nice and easy folder capability, it
should not be hard to keep track of the letters.

=============================================================================

                                  - End -

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com,
        pbakelaar@exit109.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 03:02:38 +0100

Steve,

What is the address to mail the normal messages to, for the majordomo list?
Did I overread something?

Timothy

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From: rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric & Denisse Hedman)
To: stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
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        T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com
Subject: mailing list
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:33:29 -0700 (PDT)

So, am I automaticly in the news
mailing....???????????????................or do I need to subscribe........I
mean it says welcome but then tells me how to sign up.....

Ric
Visit RD Designs Home Page at:..http://www.wolfenet.com/~rddesign/Rddesign.htm

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From: Philip Bakelaar 
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden),
        KellySt@aol.com, kgstar@most.fw.hac.com, stevev@efn.org,
        jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl,
        hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rddesign@wolfenet.com,
        David@InterWorld.com, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
        neill@foda.math.usu.edu, 101765.2200@compuserve.com, mkshp@ionet.net
Subject: Archiving LIT...
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 21:30:39 -0400

At 03:02 AM 7/26/96 +0100, Timothy van der Linden wrote:
>Timothy replies to Ben who wrote multiple messages:

Sorry bout that! ;)

>>I could be responsible for librarian and archiver, especially
>>because I have a ZIP drive, and $20 bux for 100 megs I think
>>even my dad will pay once a month.. If that's enuff space.
>
>Don't worry about buying zip-discs, all letters from the last year of SD
>discussions are less than 5 Mb.

Well, if I was archiver, I would probably buy one zip-disc then.

> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>>Think about getting
>>30 letters a day (which I sometimes do from this
>>group), but multiply that by 4 or 5 groups, and
>>you HAVE to keep them separated!
>
>Think about having 400 members in this forum as soon as the LIT-site opens
>up again. There are currently over 700 !!! people who ever tried to get
>subscribed to the old (not working) newsletters. (Of course some might have
>want to get unsubscribed, but where never able to).
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

wow that is a lot. 

>>Guys, I would be willing to be your librarian! Seriously, I'm the ONLY
>>candidate for this, because every one else has jobs. I am great at 
>>summing up and sorting info, and I could make programs to help me...
>>Guys, i would LOVE this job! If anyone has objections, tell me..
>
>Make programs to help you? Do you know that much about neural-net programming?
>Summarizing isn't just glueing everything together, some "chit-chat" may
>have useful information that just isn't in any separate letter. You may need
>to keep track of everything that is written in 100 letters, not an easy job.
>The best that you probably could do is get rid of a lot of the quotings (you
>might be able to write a program to help you with that) but of course
>sometimes the quotings cannot just be left out.
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Actually, I was not considering doing neural-net programming! :)
The program I plan to make is this: 
  1) Get all LIT mailings for week in one folder (already done)
  2) Make a program to:
     3) Read my Eurdora Light file
     4) Archive EVERY SINGLE message
     5) Make a database with index tables and stuff
     6) Make the program to .ZIP the database when finished,
        unZIP when starting.
     7) The program would be searchable, etc. etc.
    
I was figgerin on archiving EVERY single letter, exactly for
the reason you stated. there could be good info in chit-chat.
If you guys wanted, I could also do a "cut down" version, but
really, once i develop the program (if you guys give me the go)
it won't be hard to archive every mail. but since I won't be 
doing much besides developing the product (i dont believe in a
finished computer program), i would have time (if you want) to
make a "cut-down" vers... whatda think?

>>I meant that I wanted daily letters AS WELL AS a weekly summary of ALL 
>>the letters, so summaries.. I don't know how other people feel about it,
>>but that way whoever wants to can just delete all their mail for the
>>week and save the one weekly one.. I mean, I already have like 200-300
>>letters from you guys, but it could be compressed (weekly) into I 
>>guess 4 or 5 letters. Saves no space, but relieves the clutter. 
>
>I rather have the separate letters, makes searching a little bit easier
>(assuming that people change the subject-line once in a while).

Sure, especially if I make this program. You can either keep all your
letters, or they will all be there in one file (weekly) as a database
easily searchable by the program.

>Since you are using Eudora, which has a nice and easy folder capability, it
>should not be hard to keep track of the letters.

Yup.

Guys, let me know whatcha think about my proposal. I will probably do it
just for me anyway (#1, as a programming exercise, #2 because it will help
me keep track of lit) but if you guys say go i will probably have more
of an incentive to finish quicker. :)

Ben

From popserver Fri Jul 26 02:06:09 GMT 1996
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References: 
	<199607252335.QAA10869@tzadkiel.efn.org>
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: Steve VanDevender 
Cc: David Levine ,
        "'zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl'" ,
        "'KellySt@aol.com'" ,
        "'hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu'"
	 ,
        "'T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl'" ,
        "'jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu'" ,
        "'zkulpa@ippt.gov.pl'" ,
        "'rddesign@wolfenet.com'" ,
        "'lparker@destin.gulfnet.com'" ,
        "'DotarSojat@aol.com'" ,
        "'sl0c8@cc.usu.edu'" ,
        "'101765.2200@compuserve.com'" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>,
        "'kgstar@most.fw.hac.com'" ,
        "'neill@foda.math.usu.edu'" ,
        "'pbakelaar@exit109.com'" ,
        "'mkshp@ionet.net'"
	 
Subject: The starship-design mailing list has been created
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 17:32:01 -0700

You should have received or will soon receive the information message
for the newly-created starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu mailing list.
Please let me know if you get this message but do not get the
subscription message from the Majordomo list.

As it turned out, the list application process is started by filling out
a web form, which then automatically mails the system administrators on
darkwing (including me) to ask us to add the list aliases to the
/etc/aliases.  So, of course, I added them immediately and got the other
part of the confirmation from Majordomo shortly thereafter.

The mailing list is an open list, meaning anyone can subscribe without
intervention from the list owner (me).  However, posting is closed,
meaning that only members of the list can post to it (wise in these days
of massive email spamming).  It is also configured so that default
replies go to the author of a message and not to the whole list -- most
mail programs let you choose between individual replies (that go to just
the author of the message you are replying to) or replying to all
recipients of the original message (including the list distribution
address).  The latter was simply my personal preference, as I find that
model better since you can choose whether to make a personal or
list-wide reply; the "reply to the whole list" option tends to make it
very difficult to send personal replies to list messages.

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy L.G. van der Linden)
To: stevev@efn.org
Subject: Questions about your letter to SD
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 00:35:35 +0100

Hello Steve,

I'd like to ask you a few questions about your last letter to Starship
Design where you derived several formulas about what the best reaction mass
could be.

I first read "http://sunsite.unc.edu/lunar/Engineering12.html". All things
are clear to me until you write:

>The velocity of an object is its momentum divided by its total
>energy, v = p/E; hence we also have the relationships:
>
>r = Pr/Er
>
>s = Ps/Es

This seems very strange to me because:

p/E=[kg m/s]/[kg (m/s)^2]=[s/m] thus the inverse of velocity.

Please explain what is wrong. I've tried deriving the formula using now
r=Er/Pr and s=Es/Ps arrived at the formula:

f^2 = (s^2 - 1) / (r - s)^2


I also have something to ask about your last letter to SD:

>Then in the local frame of the spacecraft, every second it
>increases velocity by s, and its mass diminishes by the
>proportion f.

Do you really mean f or should it be (1-f) ?

>               Since the kind off acceleration that a human crew
>can tolerate is very low compared to the speed of light, there
>won't be much difference between treating the acceleration as
>continuous or pulsed.  Continuing the acceleration for a time t
>results in the spacecraft mass diminishing to f^t.

I'm not sure about the difference between diminish "by" or "to" since my
native language is not English. I think here it should indeed be f^t.

>about a 2:1 Earth time/spacecraft time ratio.  Accelerating to
>0.866c at 1 g will take about 1.14 years of spacecraft time.

I think it is 1.27 years, but it does not make much difference in the
calculated values.

After all this you compare different kinds of fuels. It would probably been
better if you compared exhaust velocities without mentioning the kind of
fuel. You assume that for fusion mass enough energy is released to
accelerate all the fused material. Maybe for low velocities that is true,
but I'm not sure it will work for higher velocities. It should be very easy
to calculate. The energy released in fusion "weighs" about 1/300 of the
original unfused material.

Greetings Timothy


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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy L.G. van der Linden)
To: Steve VanDevender 
Subject: Re: Questions about your letter to SD
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 20:50:30 +0100

Hello Steve,

>I am fond of using what relativity texts call "geometrized
>units".  In geometrized units time is also measured in units of
>distance by multiplying conventional time by c (the speed of
>light), and velocity is therefore dimensionless.  In more
>advanced uses even mass is measured in units of distance (using
>the conversion factor G/c^2)!
>
>The expression in conventional units, off the top of my head,
>seems like it should be:
>
>v / c = p * c / E
>
>or
>
>v = p * c^2 / E

I had seen you use these geometrized units and understood most of them. It's
a bit tricky for me since I always used the conventional notation.
Unfortunately you are one of the very few that use this notation.
Where I made the mistake was that I had not translated the E to E/c^2.
Thank you for the explanation.

> > >about a 2:1 Earth time/spacecraft time ratio.  Accelerating to
> > >0.866c at 1 g will take about 1.14 years of spacecraft time.
> > 
> > I think it is 1.27 years, but it does not make much difference in the
> > calculated values.
>
>As far as I know the formula I use is correct:
>
>v = tanh(a' * t')
>
>v = velocity (unitless, as a fraction of c)
>a' = spacecraft acceleration in its local frame (units of 1/distance)
>t' = spacecraft elapsed time (units of distance)
>
>Again, this uses geometrized units; for conventional units you'd
>use the formula:
>
>v = c * tanh(a' * t' / c)
>
>Perhaps you calculated the global frame time rather than the
>spacecraft local time?

No, I used the same formula you did and still get 1.277 years (a=9.8 c=3E8,
v=0.866c).

>I believe that I discussed why I considered both fuel and exhaust
>velocity, by citing the example of burning the fuel and using the
>energy to accelerate a lower quantity of reaction mass to a
>higher velocity.  I still believe that such a case results in
>much poorer behavior; at least by the analysis I've done it's
>better to burn the fuel and eject all the waste products at a
>lower velocity than to burn the fuel and leave most or all of the
>waste products on the ship.

I'm sorry, I must have missed that part when I read your letter.
Dumping the waste products is obviously better than dragging them with the
Asimov.

>Now that you've induced me to think about it further, I'd have to
>say that the efficiency of the mass-to-energy conversion from
>burning the fuel is really what's more critical than either the
>fuel type or the reaction exhaust velocity.  Using hydrogen for
>fuel and burning it with fusion means that you can't convert more
>than 1/300 of the fuel mass to energy (using your figure), and
>hence no more than 1/300 of the fueled spacecraft mass converted
>to energy can be applied to accelerating the payload.  A
>self-fueled ship simply cannot reach high relativistic speeds
>with a reasonable fuel-to-payload ratio without being able to
>convert a large fraction of the fuel to energy.

Indeed, the only feasible option for self-fueled ships would be a matter &
anti-matter mixture.

Do you know how efficiently energy can be transferred into anti-matter these
days? Or to put the question in an other way, what are the input energies of
these supercolliders and how many anti-particles can be isolated after a
collision.
It's hard to get accurate data, so I haven't a clue of the efficiency to
create anti-matter.

The energy needed for the anti-matter creation probably has to come from
solar power and fusion.

The reason that I followed your derivation quite thorough is that about a
week ago I had finished calculations which should give the same results. My
approach is completely different from yours. My main goal was to calculate
the energy needed for such a trip. I had planned to send it to SD soon. I'd
appreciate it very much if you would look at it before I send it to SD. It's
mainly formulas and about 10Kbyte long. If you are interested I will send it
to you.

Greetings Timothy


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From: Steve VanDevender 
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy L.G. van der Linden)
Cc: Steve VanDevender 
Subject: Re: Questions about your letter to SD
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 16:24:25 -0700

Timothy L. G. van der Linden writes:
 > I had seen you use these geometrized units and understood most of them. It's
 > a bit tricky for me since I always used the conventional notation.
 > Unfortunately you are one of the very few that use this notation.
 > Where I made the mistake was that I had not translated the E to E/c^2.
 > Thank you for the explanation.

The primary text I use is _Spacetime Physics_ by Taylor and
Wheeler.  They almost always use geometrized units, introducing
them almost immediately in the first chapter.  I find they are
much easier to work with for most purposes.
 > >v = c * tanh(a' * t' / c)
 > >
 > >Perhaps you calculated the global frame time rather than the
 > >spacecraft local time?
 > 
 > No, I used the same formula you did and still get 1.277 years (a=9.8 c=3E8,
 > v=0.866c).

Perhaps _I_ calculated the global frame time instead of the
spacecraft time.  I get 1.277 years of spacecraft time when I run
the calculation now.

 > Do you know how efficiently energy can be transferred into anti-matter these
 > days? Or to put the question in an other way, what are the input energies of
 > these supercolliders and how many anti-particles can be isolated after a
 > collision.
 > It's hard to get accurate data, so I haven't a clue of the efficiency to
 > create anti-matter.

I really don't know how you could make antimatter in any quantity
using conventional technology.  I doubt it would be very
efficient at all.

At best, you could make something like 2 million tons per second
if you could convert the total output of the Sun completely to
antimatter (and an equal amount of matter).

 > The energy needed for the anti-matter creation probably has to come from
 > solar power and fusion.

Umm, what's the difference? :-)

 > The reason that I followed your derivation quite thorough is that about a
 > week ago I had finished calculations which should give the same results. My
 > approach is completely different from yours. My main goal was to calculate
 > the energy needed for such a trip. I had planned to send it to SD soon. I'd
 > appreciate it very much if you would look at it before I send it to SD. It's
 > mainly formulas and about 10Kbyte long. If you are interested I will send it
 > to you.

I am about to leave on a trip to Seattle, so I can't promise I'll
have time to look it over.  You are welcome to send it to me and
if I can find time to look it over I will; I'll still have email
access from there.

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy L.G. van der Linden)
To: Steve VanDevender 
Subject: My derivation
Date: Sun, 01 Oct 1995 13:44:46 +0100

>The primary text I use is _Spacetime Physics_ by Taylor and
>Wheeler.  They almost always use geometrized units, introducing
>them almost immediately in the first chapter.  I find they are
>much easier to work with for most purposes.

Probably easier, when you have worked with them a while. Maybe I will start
using them too.

>I really don't know how you could make antimatter in any quantity
>using conventional technology.  I doubt it would be very
>efficient at all.

Very very small quantities are produced when particles collide in these
supercolliders. Most of the time these products are just left to decay. The
problem is that one gets a myriad of particles while we are probably most
interested in positrons anti-neutrons and anti-protons.

>At best, you could make something like 2 million tons per second
>if you could convert the total output of the Sun completely to
>antimatter (and an equal amount of matter).

Yes, but then it would become quite dark on Earth wouldn't it. :)
If we could bundle a 1E-9 part of the Suns photons we could accelerate a 1
million ton ship with 1g by photon impulse.

>I am about to leave on a trip to Seattle, so I can't promise I'll
>have time to look it over.  You are welcome to send it to me and
>if I can find time to look it over I will; I'll still have email
>access from there.

Ok, thanks in advance. I will add it here.

Greetings Timothy


We want to build a spacevessel called Asimov which acclerates with a
constant acceleration a relative to the Asimovs frame to a velocity Vend
relative to Earth. For this it exhausts mass with a velocity Vexh backwards.
The energy source can be of any kind and is stored on board. To know how
much energy is needed one needs to know the total mass of the Asimov
including the initial mass of the fuel and energy. But since the energy
needed depends on the mass of the fuel and the fuel needed depends on the
amount of energy the calculations may not be straight forward when one looks
at the problem for the first time. Such kind of problems arise frequently in
physics and the method to solve it is called "differential calculation".
This method I will use here. 

Here are the variables and constants that may need explaination:

M[t]  The total mass of the Asimov at time t
Mo    The mass of the Asimov without fuel and energy (empty weight)
j[t]  The mass-exhaust at time t
k[t]  The mass of the energy used at time t to accelerate the exhaust-mass
l[t]  Mass that is leftover after the energy that it "contained" is used.
      (eg. the mass of the products of a fusion reaction)
L[t]  Mass that is unused and is dumped as soon as its "contained" energy
      is used.
Vexh  The exhaust velocity (assumed constant)
g     Relativistic mass increase due to Vexh (thus also constant)
Vend  End velocity relative to Earth
a     Constant acceleration perceived by the people in the Asimov
T     Total amount of time that the people in the Asimov experience during
      constant acceleration in their frame to Vend in Earths frame

Extra explanation about l[t] and L[t]:
In the case of matter & anti-matter reactions mass is completely transformed
in energy so l[t]=0.
In the case of fusion-reactions only a small fraction of the initial fusion
matter is transformed in energy, so the largest part of the matter is left
over after the reaction. Some of that matter can be used as exhaust mass,
but in most cases not all. The part that cannot be used is called L[t]. This
part is assumed to be dumped as soon as the energy it initially "contained"
is "extracted". (Dumped means that the mass is released from the Asimov
without giving it any extra velocity)


Known formulas: (some explainations at the bottom of this document)

                  1
         ------------------
                        2
(1)  g =            Vexh
          Sqrt[1 - ------]
                     2
                    c

             M[t] a
(2)  j[t] = --------
             g Vexh

(3)  k[t] = j[t] (g - 1)

(3)  l[t] = (f - 1) k[t] = (f - 1)(g - 1) j[t]
 
(3.1) IF l[t] 4He + p" fusion (3.5E14 J/kg) f=257, L[t]=256k[t]-j[t], J[t]=0

          c           Vend 
(4)  T = --- ArcTanh[------]
          a            c

                 T
                 /
(5)  M[t] = Mo + | (j[t] + k[t] + L[t]) dt
                 /
                 t

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Calculations:

Let's substiute (3.1) in (5):

                   T
                   /
(6.1)  M[t] = Mo + | (1+(g-1)) j[t] dt
                   /
                   t

Rewriting gives:

                      T
                      /
(6.1a)  M[t] = Mo + g | j[t] dt
                      /
                      t

Now substitute j(t) in (6.1a):

                          T
                     a    /
(7.1)  M[t] = Mo + ------ | M[t] dt
                    Vexh  /
                          t

Now there is our differential equation. Its solution is:

                      a (T - t)              c           Vend 
(8.1)  M[t] = Mo Exp[-----------]  with T = --- ArcTanh[------]
                         Vexh                a            c

With formula (8.1) we can calculate the total initial mass M[0].

One also can calculate the total energy needed, By integrating k[t] from 0 to T
we find the total mass Mk of the energy.

          T
          /
(9)  Mk = | k[t] dt
          /
          0

We substitute (3), (2) and (8.1) in this order and get:

             T
             /   Mo a   (g - 1)       a (T - t)
(10.1)  Mk = | -------- -------- Exp[-----------] dt
             /   Vexh      g             Vexh
             0

Solving this gives:

              Mo (g - 1)        a T
(11.1)  Mk = ------------ (Exp[------] - 1)
                  g             Vexh

It may seem that this formula depends on a but remember the substitution of T
where 1/a occurs.

                                           2
This can be converted to energy by E = Mk c

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Same derivation as before only now we use (3.2)

Let's substiute (3.2) in (5):

                   T
                   /
(6.2)  M[t] = Mo + | (1+(g-1)+(f-1)(g-1)-1) j[t] dt
                   /
                   t

Rewriting gives:

                              T
                              /
(6.2a)  M[t] = Mo + (f g - f) | j[t] dt
                              /
                              t

Now substitute j(t) in (6.2a):

                                    T
                    f g - f    a    /
(7.2)  M[t] = Mo + --------- ------ | M[t] dt
                       g      Vexh  /
                                    t

Now there is our differential equation. Its solution is:

                      (f g - f) a (T - t)              c           Vend 
(8.2)  M[t] = Mo Exp[---------------------]  with T = --- ArcTanh[------]
                             g Vexh                    a            c

With formula (8.2) we can calculate the total initial mass M[0].

One also can calculate the total energy needed, By integrating k[t] from 0 to T
we find the total mass Mk of the energy.

          T
          /
(9)  Mk = | k[t] dt
          /
          0

We substitute (3), (2) and (8.2) in this order and get:

             T
             /   Mo a    (g - 1)       a (T - t)   f g - f
(10.2)  Mk = | -------- --------- Exp[----------- ---------] dt
             /   Vexh       g            Vexh         g
             0

Solving this gives:

              Mo        a T    f g - f
(11.2)  Mk = ---- (Exp[------ ---------] - 1)
              f         Vexh      g

It may seem that this formula depends on a but remember the substitution of T
where 1/a occurs.

                                           2
This can be converted to energy by E = Mk c

===============================================================================

Here are some numbers with a=10 m/s and f=1:
                                         +-----------------+
 +--------+--------+---------+-----------|    Power/Mo     |
 | Vexh/c | Vend/c | M[0]/Mo | Energy/Mo | at t=0 | at t=T |
 +--------+--------+---------+-----------+--------+--------+
 |  0.4   |  0.76  |  12.18  |  8.40E16  | 7.63E9 | 6.26E8 |
 |  0.54  |  0.76  |   6.37  |  7.65E16  | 5.60E9 | 8.79E8 | Minimum energy
 |  0.9   |  0.76  |   3.75  |  1.03E17  | 5.71E9 | 1.88E9 |
 |  0.99  |  0.76  |   2.75  |  1.35E17  | 7.15E9 | 2.60E9 |
 |  0.99  |  0.99  |  14.49  |  1.04E18  | 3.8E10 | 2.60E9 |
 +--------+--------+---------+-----------+--------+--------+

Here a number with a=10 m/s and f=257:
                                         +------------------+
 +--------+--------+---------+-----------|     Power/Mo     |
 | Vexh/c | Vend/c | M[0]/Mo | Energy/Mo | at t=0  | at t=T |
 +--------+--------+---------+-----------+---------+--------+
 |  0.4   |  0.76  |  1.9E23 |  6.91E37  | 1.23E32 | 6.26E8 |
 +--------+--------+---------+-----------+---------+--------+

===============================================================================

Derivation of (2):

 dp                        relativistic                             M a
---- = F --> j Vexh = M a ---------------> g j Vexh = M a --> j = --------
 dt                        mass increase                           g Vexh

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Derivation of (3):

The energy needed to acclerate mass m to Vexh is:

          2
Ekin = m c (g - 1)

The mass n needed for this energy can be calculated with

       2                                   2
E = n c           E = n 3.5E14 = n 0.0039 c   (fusion)

Since E = Ekin we find: n = m (g - 1)        n = 257 m (g - 1)  (fusion)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Derivation of (4):

Rewriting of:

            a t'
v = c Tanh[-----] where T=t' and Vexh=v
             c

(This formula can be found in some relativity books. It gives the velocity
for a object which accelerates constant with a in its own frame during time
t' in its own frame)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Derivation of (5):

M(t) = (Total initial mass) - (Mass used for propulsion during time t)

                          T
                          /
Total initial mass = Mo + | [j(t) + k(t)] dt
                          /
                          0

                           t
                           /
Mass used for propulsion = | [j(t) + k(t)] dt
                           /
                           0

Thus the substraction of both gives:

            T
            /
M(t) = Mo + | [j(t) + k(t)] dt
            /
            t

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pascal program to calculate certain values

CONST
  c:Double=3E8;
  a:Double=10;
  f:Double=257;
  Mo:Double=1;

VAR
  Vend,Vexh,P1,P2,Ek,M,TT,t,g:Double;

FUNCTION ArcTanh(x:Real):Double;
BEGIN
  {Arctanh(x)  x element of [0,1]}
  ArcTanh:=Ln((1+x)/Sqrt(1-Sqr(x)));
END;

BEGIN
  Vend:=0.76159*c;
  Vexh:=0.54*c;
  g:=1/Sqrt(1-Sqr(Vexh/c));
  TT:=c/a*ArcTanh(Vend/c);
  t:=0;
  IF (f-1)*(g-1)<1 THEN
    BEGIN M:=Mo*Exp(a*(TT-t)/(Vexh));
      Ek:=Mo*(g-1)/g*(Exp(a*TT/Vexh)-1)*Sqr(c);
      t:=0;P1:=Sqr(c)*Mo*a/Vexh*(g-1)/g*Exp(a*(TT-t)/Vexh);
      t:=TT;P2:=Sqr(c)*Mo*a/Vexh*(g-1)/g*Exp(a*(TT-t)/Vexh);
    END
  ELSE
    BEGIN
      M:=Mo*Exp((f*g-f)*a*(TT-t)/(g*Vexh));
      Ek:=Mo/f*(Exp(a*TT/Vexh*(f*g-f)/g)-1)*Sqr(c);
      t:=0;P1:=Sqr(c)*Mo*a/Vexh*(g-1)/g*Exp(a*(TT-t)/Vexh*(f*g-f)/g);
      t:=TT;P2:=Sqr(c)*Mo*a/Vexh*(g-1)/g*Exp(a*(TT-t)/Vexh*(f*g-f)/g);
    END;
  Write('M[0]=',M:12,' Ek=',Ek:12,' P[0]=',P1:12);
  WriteLn(' P[T]=',P2:12,' T=',T/86400:0:0);
END.





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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy L.G. van der Linden)
To: stevev@efn.org
Subject: Extra note
Date: Sun, 01 Oct 1995 15:01:56 +0100

Hi Steve,

Here an extra note from me. I checked the ratio f for several values with
your and my formula. Fortunately they seem to agree completely.

Note that my use of the variable f is different than that of your formula. I
like your approach but is it possible to calculate the needed when energy
using your formulas?

Timothy


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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: Steve VanDevender 
Subject: Re: Engineering Newsletter
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 20:37:39 +0100

To: All

>What you call "relativistic energy" or "relativistic mass" I call
>energy.  I reserve the term mass for invariant mass.  I believe
>this avoids confusion.

OK, in the future I'll try to use energy instead of relativistic mass. But
now we are using energy, we should not forget that energy excerts
gravity/inertia too!
So if one thinks to be smart by storing the energy in the form of photons in
a perfectly mirrored globe, so that no extra inertia is added, then one is
wrong.

Timothy


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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: stevev@efn.org
Subject: C-ship
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 17:44:00 +0100

Hi Steve,

About your relativistic flight simulator. Did you have the same thing in
mind as John Walker, ie. making still raytraced images? Or did you want to
make a more simple "lines-only" version that could show "real-time" images?

The problem with John's simulator is that he almost certainly cannot
simulate moving objects in the field of sight. For example a rotating disc
with radial lines would not show as disc with spiral lines for an observer
at rest.

How far is your embryonic simulator? Have you already done some programming
or are you still thinking how to program it?

Since some years I had in mind to make some simulator too, but haven't risen
above the the paperwork yet. Even if you know what the several relativistic
effects look like, it stays very hard too imagine them all together. And as
far as I can see it one can't just overlay all effects without having them
in the right order.
I had made already a simple 3D-line version of a normal world. It allows you
to use 3D red/blue glasses. My guess is that this may be usefull for a
relativistic version.

What I asked John Walker was that I would expect curved lines in the SHUTTLE
and FLYTHRU movies. I think this curvature would be result of the finite
travel speed of light, ie. light from further objects reach the observer
later than the light from nearer object. Take for example a straight line
moving towards you:

 ----------------
        ||
        \/                (seen from above)

       

The light from the edges of the line take longer to reach your eyes than the
middle of the line. This means that you always see the edges at an older
time than the middle. When the line is not moving that does not make much
difference because at that older time they were at the same place. But as
the line start moving it will look as if it is bend, with the middle most
forward.
You will see the line as follows:

 ---===****===---

Where * looks near, = a bit further away and - furthest away.

What would you expect?

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: Steve VanDevender 
Subject: Re: C-ship
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 23:07:18 +0100

Hello Steve,

>>The problem with John's simulator is that he almost certainly cannot
>>simulate moving objects in the field of sight. For example a rotating disc
>>with radial lines would not show as disc with spiral lines for an observer
>>at rest.
>
>Huh?  As far as I know a disk with radial lines won't show up
>with spiral lines to any observer.  It may appear rotated,
>however.

Yes, that's what I meant. I tried to say that John's simulator probably
would NOT show that.

>I am still trying to get enough understanding of special
>relativity theory to make sure I get things right.  I also want
>to work out more of the mathematical techniques I will use.

Once that is ready, writing the simulator is easy ;)

>The basic structure of the simulation will be to model worldlines
>for all objects, and compute visibility for display by tracing
>light-like worldlines from a observer point to the other
>worldlines in the simulation in some common frame, then transform
>apparent positions of these objects in the common frame into the
>frame of the observer.

Indeed, but for this you need to have a history of all the objects positions.
As long as they move linear or linear accelerated that's not so difficult
because you can use a function. But as soon as the behaviour gets less
simple you may need large arrays and with it come less precise calculations.
Also it would be nice to see the time at every point of the several objects
(for example by halting the simulation and clicking with the mouse).

>I think most of the relativistic effects, particularly things
>like aberration and rotation induced by moving at relativistic
>speed, can come out of fundamental behavior of the simulation
>rather than having to be explicitly calculated in each case.
>Aberration is simply a result of the way worldlines of light rays
>Lorentz-transform.

Rotation will indeed follow from the finite speed of light. But I don't see
how abberation does not show up after the LT of the worldlines. Lightrays
coming form the backside of the observer won't come from the front after the LT.

>Rather than seeing Lorentz contraction, you
>see object rotation, because you see light from farther parts of
>an object that came from it earlier than light from nearer
>parts.  I am trying to prove to myself that all these effects
>will fall out of the simulation model I want to use; so far I am
>pretty confident that I'm on the right track.

This rotation is only seen if the object moves along you, thus not towards you.

>>What I asked John Walker was that I would expect curved lines in the SHUTTLE
>>and FLYTHRU movies. I think this curvature would be result of the finite
>>travel speed of light, ie. light from further objects reach the observer
>>later than the light from nearer object.
>
>That effect should happen.

I've been rethinking this bending of the lines today. And now I think that
the lines should be straight. The lines are only curved if the objects are
moving. If the observer is moving and the objects don't move this bending
will not occur. What do you think after reading this?

This would mean that you could "easely" recognize moving objects because of
the curvature they have and that still objects don't have.

>I think one small mistake he is
>making in his aberration calculations is assuming that all
>objects are effectively infinitely distant for the purpose of
>computing the aberration.

Yes, in a book I read the term "supersnapshot" for that method. 

>The way that I'd end up computing how the line would look would
>be to trace lightlike worldlines from the observer to points
>along the worldlines of points on the line.  The farther parts of
>the line would have worldline intersections that were earlier in
>time than the intersections of points nearer on the line, and
>since the line is moving, seeing a point on the line earlier in
>time means you'd see it earlier in its motion history.

Yes, you need to know the functions of motion several points of an object.
Let's call one point of the object P[t].
Call the point of the observer O[t].
What does the observer see at time T1? The observer sees an object if a
photon that left the object at time T0 reached the position O[T1].

So in formula's:

c*(T1-T0)=Sqrt((O[T1]-P[T0])^2)    c is the speed of light

With this equation one can calculate T0. When knowing that, you can
determine the position of the object at T0, so then you know from what
direction and from how far the photon came.

Do this for all object-points and you have a created the "see-able" world,
after that you could use the c-ship program.

>Your orientation to the line does make a difference, though.  If
>it was moving end-on towards you, then you'd see the line rotated
>rather than curved as a result of the same effects.

Yes, assuming of course that it would not come straight at you, because than
you would see a single point.

>Now that I think about it, simple extensions to POVray for
>modeling relativistic effects probably wouldn't work well,
>because you really have to raytrace in four dimensions to
>properly model them.

Indeed, although it is easy to calculate the length of the lightray, it is
much more difficult to know where all object where in the past.

>On the other hand, an effect he pretty much got right that is a
>little nonintuitive is the appearance of the lattice receding
>during the early period of acceleration; at that time you haven't
>gone very far in the lattice, but aberration is causing the light
>from beside and behind you to begin to appear in front of you,
>producing the appearance of moving backwards in the lattice.
>Only when your proper-to-frame time ratio gets very high does
>moving through the lattice begin to counteract the aberration
>effects. 

Yes, I noticed that effect too. But the formula to calculate the aberration
is quite simple. In raytracing it is very easy to substitute one angle by a
new one.
It is fascinating that at higher velocities the biggest part of the view is
the area that is after you, the part in that normally is in front of you is
reduced a very small circle. 

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: Steve VanDevender 
Subject: Re: C-ship
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 19:19:54 +0100

>Yes, and that's why I've spent all my time on that so far, with a
>relatively brief digression into astrophysics to develop a simple
>but adequate model of starlight and a 3-d star database from
>catalogs.

Do you have a "DOS" computer? If so, you should try the program Circumspace.
That program allows you to fly around between the local stars, you can use
warp-speed but it doesn't show relativistic effects. It is very difficult to
find your way back to Sol after a trip of 100 ly. (If you like I could put
it on the web for you.)

>Check out the exercises in Chapter L (that's what they call it)
>of _Spacetime Physics_.  Aberration and the "headlight effect"
>both follow directly from the geometry of the Lorentz
>transformation applied to light rays.

I see, it has to do with velocity addition, I thought only of
lenght-contraction. But what did you mean by Lorenz transforming the world
lines? Does that also mean that velocity addition is done at the same time?

>Remember that a displacement along a worldline of a light ray is
>different than a plain spacial displacement, so applying a
>Lorentz transform to it produces a different result.  Try out the
>numbers and I think you'll be surprised.  I just ran an example
>for myself with a Lorentz transform matrix for a boost of 0.9 c
>in the x direction, and light rays coming from a perpendicular
>direction (say from along the y or z axes).  They really do end
>up looking like they're in front of you when transformed into the
>"moving" frame.

Yes, I had already seen that in the c-ship chapter about abberation. The
name "headlight" is quite applicable because most of the light is
concentrated in the front and thus that part will be much brighter then the
back.

>Correct.  If your optics all take into account the finite speed
>of light, though, you will not necessarily see the amount of
>Lorentz contraction you'd think.  Farther portions of the object
>are seen farther back in time when they were farther away.

That's right, but did you know that a moving sphere always has a circular
outline to all observers even after LT?

>Which is why you should be suspicious.  In the case of a
>constant-velocity observer, it is not possible to decide whether
>the observer or its surroundings are moving.  (An accelerated
>observer experiences something that the rest of the universe does
>not; an accelerated observer knows that he is accelerating.)

I realized the next morning that it indeed could not be true, but still
wasn't sure where I went wrong. Now I think I know why: If the observer is
"at rest" and the objects move, then the curvature is caused by the finite
travel of light which causes to show objects at places where they WERE.
But when the observer moves and the objects are "at rest", then the
curvature is caused by abberation.
Do you understand this subtle difference?

So again nature has effectively removed all possibilities to find a absolute
rest frame.

>If you are at a point S = [ t x y z ], and you want to view an
>object whose worldline is described by P(t') = P0 + V * t' =
>[ t0 x0 y0 z0 ] + [ v0 v1 v2 v3 ] * t', then the path of a light ray
>between S and P satisfies the equation (S - P(t'))^2 = 0, The
>solution is:
>
>t' = ((S - P0)|V - sqrt(((S - P0)|V)^2 - (S - P0)^2 * V^2)) / V^2

Shouldn't it be:

 t' = ((S - P0)|V - sqrt(((S - P0)|V)^2 - 4(S - P0)^2 * V^2)) / 2 V^2

>This is pretty much simple application of the quadratic formula,
>choosing the smallest solution to get the t' that corresponds to
>light leaving the object at an earlier time than the observer's.
>
>Things are substantially more complicated when dealing with
>accelerated worldlines.  I've got a preliminary solution stated
>in similar terms as the above discussion; perhaps you'd like to
>check my math :-).

I tried checking it, but I don't get the same answer. At the non-substituted
result I already have a different answer. How sure are you about the
calculation? Did you do it by hand or did you use a mathematical program?

To be short I also have some negative exponent terms: ...exp(-a * t')^2 and
....exp(-a * t')

>I have yet to program this expression into my calculator and play
>with some solutions to see if they have the predicted results.
>In particular, there should be regions of spacetime where you
>cannot see the accelerated object (see Chapter 6 of
>_Gravitation_).
>
>You will also note that this is a somewhat less general statement
>of the problem; it uses a frame in which the accelerated object
>was at rest at the origin of the frame.  For a general solution
>you would need to transform the view point into the appropriate
>frame, apply this solution, and transform it back out afterwards.

A while ago I studied the accelerate formulas, it took quite a time before I
figured out that the acceleration was measured relative to the "momentary"
restframe. But I still don't know how the acceleration formulas are derived.


Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: Steve VanDevender 
Subject: Re: C-ship
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 1995 10:55:40 +0100

>I have a 486 Linux system with a small DOS partition.  If
>Circumspace isn't too big I could probably squeeze it on there.

OK, it's about 180 Kb, you can download it with next URL:

http://www.cpedu.rug.nl/~N0642983/circum.zip

>Velocity in spacetime physics is not quite the concept you're
>used to.  An object "at rest" has a "vertical" worldline.  An
>object in motion has a "tilted" worldline.  ("Vertical" and
>"tilted" with respect to the t-axis, of course.)  Lorentz
>transformations modify the tilt of worldlines, except when the
>worldline is that of a light ray; then it only shortens or
>lengthens displacements along that worldline (which is a funny
>thing to say, because the interval between any pair of points
>along any light ray is zero).

I understood this, it's just a graph with time along the vertical axis and a
space-dimension on the horizontal axis (x-axis). Most diagrams are scaled so
that a worldline of lightray has a 45 degree angle.
And when you LT this, the non-light worldlines get a bit steeper, am I right?
But is it possible to see in a such a diagram from what direction the
light-ray comes? (I know the diagram has only 1 dimension, but you can
extend it to 2 dimension in a horizontal plane and the time in the vertical
direction)
What I thus don't know is how you can visualize abberation in such diagrams.

> > I realized the next morning that it indeed could not be true, but still
> > wasn't sure where I went wrong. Now I think I know why: If the observer is
> > "at rest" and the objects move, then the curvature is caused by the finite
> > travel of light which causes to show objects at places where they WERE.
> > But when the observer moves and the objects are "at rest", then the
> > curvature is caused by abberation.
> > Do you understand this subtle difference?
>
>Well, no.  Curvature (caused by finite light travel time) and
>aberration (caused by Lorentz transformation of light rays) are
>two different things.

No I think not, if an object is at rest in a certain frame, then the
lightrays of all points of the object are all over the place. So if you are
a some place you know for sure where the object is (we assumed it doesn't
move). When the observer moves, it still gets the lightrays, from the
original direction, but then abberation deforms the view and there is your
curvature.

Now the objects move in the restframe of the observer and the observer is at
rest. There is no abberation because the observer doesn't move, but now the
finite light travel time causes the curvature.

>I think where the confusion is arising is that to get what the
>camera sees, you must be in the frame of the camera.  You can do
>the calculations from any frame, including the ones where the
>camera is at rest and the one where the lattice is at rest.  But
>to figure out what the camera sees, you need to transform all
>your results into the frame where the camera is at rest.
>Otherwise you get what other observers see the camera seeing.

If you put the observer at rest in his rest frame, there is no abberation,
since he doesn't move.

The two situations I mentioned differ in the fact that the one time the
observer is at rest and the objects move and the other time the observer is
moving and the objects are at rest. If both the observer and the objects are
moving then both curvature due to "finite light travel time" and abberation.
Of course you can always find a frame where only one of the two situations
is present.

> > I tried checking it, but I don't get the same answer. At the non-substituted
> > result I already have a different answer. How sure are you about the
> > calculation? Did you do it by hand or did you use a mathematical program?
> > 
> > To be short I also have some negative exponent terms: ...exp(-a * t')^2 and
> > ....exp(-a * t')
>
>Because the equation is of the form
>
>(big mess) = 0
>
>where (big mess) contains terms of exp(-a * t'), I multiply
>through by exp(a * t') to cancel those, producing terms of exp(a
>* t')^2 and exp(a * t').  I'm not sure how you got terms of
>exp(-a * t')^2 but if you multiply through at the right stage you
>shouldn't.

 (t- a/a^2 Sinh[a T])^2 - (x-ax/a^2(Cosh[a T]-1))^2
-(y-ay/a^2(Cosh[a T]-1))^2 -(z-az/a^2(Cosh[a T]-1))^2 = 0

The addition of these 4 terms is is what I feed my calculation program.

Substituting the Cosh and Sinh with the Exponential functions gives me quite
a bunch of terms: (T=t')

- 1/(2*a^2) - (3*ax^2)/(2*a^4) - (3*ay^2)/(2*a^4) - (3*az^2)/(2*a^4)
+ 1/(4*a^2*E^(2*a*T)) - ax^2/(4*a^4*E^(2*a*T)) - ay^2/(4*a^4*E^(2*a*T))
- az^2/(4*a^4*E^(2*a*T)) + ax^2/(a^4*E^(a*T)) + ay^2/(a^4*E^(a*T))
+ az^2/(a^4*E^(a*T)) + (ax^2*E^(a*T))/a^4 + (ay^2*E^(a*T))/a^4
+ (az^2*E^(a*T))/a^4 + E^(2*a*T)/(4*a^2) - (ax^2*E^(2*a*T))/(4*a^4)
- (ay^2*E^(2*a*T))/(4*a^4) - (az^2*E^(2*a*T))/(4*a^4) + t/(a*E^(a*T))
- (E^(a*T)*t)/a + t^2 - (2*ax*x)/a^2 + (ax*x)/(a^2*E^(a*T))
+ (ax*E^(a*T)*x)/a^2 - x^2 - (2*ay*y)/a^2 + (ay*y)/(a^2*E^(a*T))
+ (ay*E^(a*T)*y)/a^2 - y^2 - (2*az*z)/a^2 + (az*z)/(a^2*E^(a*T))
+ (az*E^(a*T)*z)/a^2 - z^2 = 0

As you can see there are 1/Exp[2aT], 1/Exp[aT], Exp[aT], Exp[2aT] terms,
these terms do not cancel out.

Here is the same stuff but now with Cosh and Sinh:

- (ax^2/a^4) - ay^2/a^4 - az^2/a^4 + t^2 - (2*ax*x)/a^2 - x^2
- (2*ay*y)/a^2 - y^2 - (2*az*z)/a^2 - z^2 + (2*ax^2*Cosh[a*T])/a^4
+ (2*ay^2*Cosh[a*T])/a^4 + (2*az^2*Cosh[a*T])/a^4
+ (2*ax*x*Cosh[a*T])/a^2 + (2*ay*y*Cosh[a*T])/a^2
+ (2*az*z*Cosh[a*T])/a^2 - (ax^2*Cosh[a*T]^2)/a^4
- (ay^2*Cosh[a*T]^2)/a^4 - (az^2*Cosh[a*T]^2)/a^4
- (2*t*Sinh[a*T])/a + Sinh[a*T]^2/a^2 = 0

So again I ask you if you are using a mathematical program, I do, and am
quite confident about its accuracy. I've tried a lot of things but I simply
don't see how I could simplify the formula more.
(cosh(u)^2 - sinh(u)^2 = 1  won't work...)

Timothy


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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: stevev@efn.org
Subject: Calculations
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 1995 16:19:04 +0100

Hi Steve,

Today I was playing with Mathematica, I managed to remove the Sinh^2 and
Cosh^2 but where before I had all cosh and sinh terms with [a t'] I now have
also terms with [2 a t']
      ^
Here it is:

 2*t^2 - 2*(x^2 + y^2 + z^2))
+(ax^2 + ay^2 + az^2)*(-3 + 4*Cosh[a*T] - Cosh[2*a*T])
+a^2*(-1 + (ax*x + ay*y + az*z)*(-4 + 4*Cosh[a*T]) + Cosh[2*a*T])
-4*a^3*t*Sinh[a*T] = 0


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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: stevev@efn.org
Subject: Calculations
Date: Fri, 06 Jan 1995 01:17:00 +0100

You advised to substitute sqrt(ax^2 + ay^2 + az^2) for a, I did it the other
way around thus substitute (ax^2 + ay^2 + az^2) by a^2 and ...

Wow, that really simplifies (after some other tricks):

S|S + 2 a^2*(1+A|S)*(Cosh[a*T]-1) - 2*a^3*t*Sinh[a*T] = 0

A=[0 ax ay az]
S=[t  x  y  z]

Solving gives:

t' = 1/a * Ln[(d+Sqrt[4 f g a^4 + d^2])/(2g a^2)]
                ^ or a minus-sign
With:
 d=2 a^2 (1+A|S) - S|S
 f=-1 - A|S - a t
 g= 1 + A|S - a t


It looks much like your solution, but isn't the same:
t' = 1/a * ln((-q - sqrt(q^2 - 4 * p * r)) / (2 * p))

 > k = 1 - A|S
 > p = k - a * t = 1 - A|S - a t
 > q = a^2 * S^2 - 2 * k = a^2 S|S - 2 - 2 A|S
 > r = k + a * t = 1 - A|S + a t 

Timothy

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From: "L. Parker" 
To: Steve VanDevender 
Subject: Re: MARS HYBRID DESIGN II (First Draft)
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 09:11:31 -0600

At 08:12 PM 3/6/96 -0800, you wrote:
>I'd at least be interested in knowing the basics of
>such a maneuver if it was possible.
>
>I certainly have doubts about pulling 14G in a man-rated vehicle; as I
>understand it 9G is tolerable only for short periods, and even 2G
>probably wouldn't be tolerable for very long.

Matloff and Ubel worked out the mechanics of the Powered Perihelion
Manuever, as well as the various concerns with things like maximum
acclerations and such around ten years ago. I don't remember where they
originally presented their findings, but most of them are presented again in
The Starflight Handbook in a somewhat condensed form. 

It has been a while since I read it, but I think they only expected to
realize 14 G for about half an hour. Light pressure really does fall off
VERY quickly. It is easy to say inversely proportional to the square of the
distance...but getting a feel for it is a little more difficult. Which is
one of the reasons I am so skeptical about the feasibility of beamed power.
Some of the group members are just beginning to realize some of the problems
inherent with the concept.

Lee Parker
>
>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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From: "L. Parker" 
To: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: SSRT: Space Access Update #68 7/31/96 - DC-XA Fire
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 18:22:11 -0500

>Return-Path: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu
>From: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu (Chris W. Johnson)
>To: "Single Stage Rocket Technology News" 
>Subject: SSRT: Space Access Update #68 7/31/96 - DC-XA Fire
>Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:43:56 -0600
>Sender: listserv@zimbazi.cc.utexas.edu
>X-listname: 
>
>
>
>From: hvanderbilt@BIX.com (hvanderbilt on BIX)
>Newsgroups: sci.space.policy
>Subject: Space Access Update #68 7/31/96 - DC-XA Fire
>Date: 31 Jul 96 21:18:06 GMT
>Organization: Delphi Internet Services Corporation
>Lines: 49
>
>
>                     Space Access Update #68  7/31/96
>                 Copyright 1996 by Space Access Society
>_______________________________________________________________________
>
>This just in.  The DC-XA "Clipper Graham" suffered a significant post-
>landing fire today.  As far as we know, the scheduled two minute twenty
>second flight test went fine.  Preliminary word is that one landing gear
>leg failed to extend, causing the vehicle to fall on its side after
>touching down.  The vehicle then caught fire.  We have no details on how
>long the fire burned before the fire crew could approach the pad, or how
>extensive damage is.
>
>(We now have confirmation of all of the above from White Sands Missile
>Range.  NASA Select TV should be carrying a press conference with more
>details at 3:30 pm MDT.)
>
>Our best guess is that vehicle damage will be extensive, but that parts of
>the vehicle, in particular the engines, may be salvageable.
>
>Our read on the significance of this to the practicality or otherwise of
>the DC-X vertical-landing configuration is, no significance.  Landing
>gears get stuck occasionally on all sorts of aircraft; gear-up landings
>often lead to severe damage or destruction of the aircraft involved.  The
>main lesson to be drawn is, build more than one copy of your X-vehicle.
>(A secondary lesson might be to change landing hardware and/or procedures
>to try to keep the vehicle upright in the event of a stuck landing leg...)
>
>Our recommendation for what action to take is, take the funds that have
>been identified for extended DC-XA flight test (recently officially
>approved) and for a possible start on a DC-XB upgrade aeroshell, salvage
>what's salvageable from the DC-XA, and begin work on DC-XB immediately.
>
>More on all this when we know more.
>__________________________________________________________________________
>
> Space Access Society      "Reach low orbit and you're halfway to anywhere
> 4855 E Warner Rd #24-150               in the Solar System."
> Phoenix AZ 85044                               - Robert A. Heinlein
> 602 431-9283 voice/fax
> www.space-access.org                     "You can't get there from here."
> space.access@space-access.org                          - Anonymous
>__________________________________________________________________________
>
> - Permission granted to redistribute the full and unaltered text of this -
> - piece, including the copyright and this notice.  All other rights      -
> - reserved.  In other words, crossposting, emailing, or printing this    -
> - whole and passing it on to interested parties is strongly encouraged.  -
>
>
>
>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
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Subject: SSRT: DC-XA Flight 4 McDonnell Douglas News Release
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 08:07:37 -0500

>Return-Path: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu
>From: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu (Chris W. Johnson)
>To: "Single Stage Rocket Technology News" 
>Subject: SSRT: DC-XA Flight 4 McDonnell Douglas News Release
>Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 13:56:32 -0600
>Sender: listserv@zimbazi.cc.utexas.edu
>X-listname: 
>
>-------
>
>From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
>Newsgroups: sci.space.news
>Subject: Fourth Test Flight of the Clipper Graham
>Followup-To: sci.space.policy
>Date: 1 Aug 1996 14:22:57 -0700
>Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
>Lines: 38
>
>STATUS REPORT: FOURTH TEST FLIGHT OF CLIPPER GRAHAM
>
>A McDonnell Douglas news release
>July 31, 1996
>
>WHITE SANDS MISSILE RANGE, N.M., July 31, 1996 - The experimental
>NASA-McDonnell Douglas Clipper Graham rocket flew today, but a problem
>during landing caused the vehicle to tip over and catch fire.
>
>The Clipper Graham began its 2-minute, 20-second test flight at 1:15 p.m.
>MDT. It was the fourth flight in a test series that began in May.
>
>Program managers Dan Dumbacher of NASA and Dave Schweikle of McDonnell
>Douglas said the vehicle performed its flight maneuvers extremely well. It
>completed its planned test profile, which included an arc-like sweeping
>maneuver from a near upright position, before descending base-first from the
>4,100-foot maximum altitude. All of the vehicle's components appeared to
>function normally.
>
>However, approximately 200 feet above the landing pad one of four landing
>gear failed to deploy. The Clipper Graham touched down on the three deployed
>landing gear, shut off its engines, then fell on its side because it lacked
>the support of the fourth landing gear.
>
>A committee will be established to investigate the cause of the incident.
>The committee will gather flight and landing data to determine what caused
>the problem. Engineers and technicians will not be able to examine the
>severely damaged vehicle for at least 24 hours because of safety
>considerations.
>
>Dumbacher and Schweikle said the Clipper Graham is an experimental,
>high-risk technology program. The Clipper Graham is a follow-on of the Delta
>Clipper-Experimental vertical-takeoff, vertical-landing rocket that
>successfully completed a series of eight flight tests.
>
>Dumbacher and Schweikle said each of the tests in the program has been more
>demanding, demonstrating the behavior of the experimental vehicle under a
>variety of dynamic flight conditions.
>
>
>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+                                                                             +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+                                                                             +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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From: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu (Chris W. Johnson) (by way of "L. Parker" )
To: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: SSRT: Clipper Graham Incident Investigation Board Convenes
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 16:43:09 -0500

----

From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Newsgroups: sci.space.news
Subject: Clipper Graham Incident Investigation Board Convenes
Followup-To: sci.space.policy
Date: 5 Aug 1996 13:42:01 -0700
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 36

Jim Cast
Headquarters, Washington, DC                August 5, 1996
(Phone:  202/358-1779)

Dom Amatore
Marshall Space Flight Center, Huntsville, AL
(Phone:  205/544-0031)

RELEASE:  96-158

CLIPPER GRAHAM INCIDENT INVESTIGATION BOARD CONVENES

     A five-member board, chaired by former astronaut Vance
Brand, is convening this week at the White Sands Missile
Range, NM, to investigate last week's post-landing incident
involving the Clipper Graham (DC-XA) rocket.

     Brand presently is Assistant Chief of Flight Operations
Directorate and Chief of Shuttle and Flight Support Office at
NASA's Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA. Other
members of the board are: George Hopson, Marshall Space
Flight Center, Huntsville,  AL;  Charles E. Harris, Langley
Research Center, Hampton, VA; Lt. Col. David Sharp, USAF
Safety Center, NM;  and Warren Wiley, Kennedy Space Center, FL.

    Progess of the board's investigation will be released as
events warrant.  The board anticipates submitting a final
report in approximately two months.

     On July 31, Clipper Graham successfully flew a two- minute,
20-second flight profile -- the fourth in the current series --
but tipped over and caught fire when one of four landing gears
failed to deploy.

                         - end -




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From: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu (Chris W. Johnson) (by way of "L. Parker" )
To: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: FWD: Clipper Graham Investigation Status Reports Available
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 07:09:41 -0500

----

From: baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov (Ron Baalke)
Newsgroups: sci.space.news
Subject: Clipper Graham Investigation Status Reports Available
Followup-To: sci.space.policy
Date: 9 Aug 1996 15:24:35 -0700
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Lines: 26

David E. Steitz
Headquarters, Washington, DC                 August 8, 1996
(Phone:  202/358-1730)

INTERNET ADVISORY:  I96-7

CLIPPER GRAHAM INVESTIGATION STATUS REPORTS AVAILABLE VIA FTP

    Status reports of the Clipper Graham Investigation Board
are available over the Internet via File Transfer Protocol
(FTP) procedures from the NASA Headquarters Public Affairs
server.  A five-member board, chaired by former astronaut
Vance Brand, has been convened at the White Sands Missile
Range, NM, to investigate the post-landing incident involving
the Clipper Graham (DC-XA) rocket.  Progress of the board's
investigation will be released as events warrant, and status
reports will be posted to the Headquarters FTP site at:

                      ftp.hq.nasa.gov

in the      /pub/pao/statrpt/msfc/cgistatus/     directory

Users should log in as anonymous and use their Email address
as their password.

                          -end-



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From: big Spamma Jammer 
To: Steve VanDevender 
Subject: Re: (Re:)^4 starship-design: The Size of the Problem
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 06:35:31 -0500

Steve VanDevender wrote:
> 
> While I haven't had time to do a more complete write-up, I thought I
> would also mention an interesting corollary to Rex's analysis of the
> energy requirements of beaming power to accelerate a relativistic
> spacecraft.  Not only is a large amount of power required, but the
> beaming equipment must be capable of (typically) output at a rate that
> can be over two orders of magnitude larger than is needed to accelerate
> the spacecraft at the start of the trip.

Or, put another way:  The beaming station uses only a tiny fraction of
it's
maximum possible power at the start of the journey 

> 
> I'm going to present some of the math without proof or demonstration at
> this time, but I'm sure it will be interesting fodder for discussion
> (either because Timothy or Rex will find any mistakes I might have made
> or because it shows another facet of difficulty to the problem of
> beaming power).
> 
> I've recently been working on the physics of light signals between a
> "stationary" object and an object undergoing relativistic acceleration
> relative to it.  Consider an object undergoing uniform accleration
> relative to itself; its frame position at its proper time t1 is:
> 
> [ t x ] = [ 1/a * sinh(a * t1)
>             1/a * cosh(a * t1) ]
> 
> At time t1 = 0, its position is [ 0 1/a ] (note again that for
> simplicity I am using geometrized units where c = 1 and acceleration has
> units 1/s (acceleration is fraction of c per unit time)).  Consider an
> object beaming power to the object to accelerate it that also starts at
> that position, so that at time t=0 it coincides with the accelerated
> object at its proper time t1=0.  If energy (light) from the beamer is
> emitted at time t, then the time t1 at which the accelerated object
> receives the energy is:
> 
> t1 = -(ln(1 - a*t))/a
> 
> Note that this is an asymptotic relationship -- as the frame time t of
> the beamer approaches 1/a, the object proper time t1 approaches
> infinity.  This consequently means that the beamer must send energy for
> any possible trip within a time 1/a, no matter how far the acclerated
> object goes, and that the rate at which power is sent increases
> asymptotically to infinity as t approaches 1/a.  The relative rate of
> time passage between the beamer and the accelerated object at frame time
> t has the relationship
> 
> dt1 / dt = 1/(1 - a*t)
> 
> In the case where a = 9.8 m/s^2 (or in geometrized units, 3.267e-8 c/s),
> the asymptote is reached within about year of beamer time (3.06e8 s).
> The good news is that to boost an object at 1 g up to its turnaround
> point and then provide deceleration power to its destination, you beam
> power for no more than two years, no matter how far away you send the
> object.  The bad news is that at the turnaround point you are beaming
> some large multiple of the power needed to keep the object accelerating
> at 1 g at the beginning and end of the trip, because of the relative
> rate of time lapse between the beamer and the accelerated object.
> 
> In fact, given the relationship between t1 and t, we can characterize
> just what this multiple is based on halfway trip time of the object.
> Solving t1 = -(ln(1 - a * t))/a for t, we get:
> 
> t = (1 - e^(-a*t1))/a
> 
> Substituting into 1/(1 - a*t), we get:
> 
> dt1 / dt = e^(a*t1)

Okay Steve, could you put that into real numbers for me.  How much
bigger is 
the turnaround power vs. the beginning/ending power?


> 
> In other words, the maximum power output at turnaround is exponentially
> related to trip time for the object.
> 
> Perhaps the worse news is that because the relative rate of time lapse
> is asymptotic, even the schemes proposed for exponentially
> self-reproducing power generation equipment ultimately run up against
> the asymptotic limit; the asymptotic relationship always reaches a point
> where it is growing faster than the exponential function.

Only if they both start at the same time.  If you start the exponential 
function first, and then wait until it is capable of producing the
proper 
amounts of power, before starting the asymptotic relationship, (ie you
complete your beaming station before the ship ever leaves orbit.) Then 
I don't see the problem.  Of course, you could always have a coast phase
somewhere up near .9 C  Coast phases at hefty fractions of C I don't
mind 
so much.  The math and physics always gets weird near the turn-around
point anyways.


> 
> Hopefully this makes sense to at least some of you.  I hope to have time
> to cover more of the background soon, as I'm sure this is confusing
> without it.  Timothy knows I've been working on analysis of accelerated
> objects in
....


-- 
Kevin "Tex" Houston 	http://umn.edu/~hous0042/index.html

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From: DotarSojat@aol.com
To: stevev@efn.org
cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
Subject: Re: your starship-design email of 8/20
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 00:39:20 -0400

Hi Steve

>I've recently been working on the physics of light signals
>between a "stationary" object and an object undergoing rela-
>tivistic acceleration relative to itself.

I think I have seen two previous remarks by you to the effect
that an object accelerating at one g can not receive light
from behind after an acceleration time of about one year.
[Note: 1 g = 1.0324 lt-yr/yr^2.  Incidentally, I prefer units
of yr for time, lt-yr for distance, lt-yr/yr for velocity and
lt-yr/yr^2 for acceleration.  With these units, values for
interstellar flight are all O(1).]  I'm not organized well
enough to retrieve your previous remarks to enable me to com-
pare them with my recollection stated above.  Please correct
me if I've misremembered.  The existence of previous remarks
indicates that 1) you have been working on this before "recent-
ly", and/or 2) you may possibly have run across some earlier
work relating to this.  I admit that your previous remarks
triggered a feeling of familiarity with the idea, but I can't
determine what that feeling might be based on.

>Consider an object undergoing uniform acceleration relative to
>itself; its frame position at its proper time t1 is:
>
>[ t x ] = [ 1/a * sinh(a * t1)
>            1/a * cosh(a * t1) ]

I interpret "acceleration relative to itself" as "proper accel-
eration" (i.e., acceleration measured by an inertial platform
mounted on the object), but I'm unfamiliar with the meanings of
"frame position" and "[ t x ]".  ("Coordinates"?  "(t,x)," with
the ordinate first?  Incidentally, I'm of the opinion that the
Minkowski (x,t) coordinate system was a mistake.  It should be
replaced by the "Epstein" (x,t') coordinate system, in which
the "interval equation" conforms geometrically with the Pythag-
orean theorem.  I have adopted the Lorentz-transformation nota-
tion of t for apparent time and t' for proper time.)  I'm also
uncertain about the equation stated above.  Similar equations
that I'm familiar with are

     t = 1/a * sinh(a * t')          and
     x = 1/a * [cosh(a * t') - 1]   .

I can't quite rationalize these with your stated equation.  (I
remember that you left out the [- 1] in the x equation at first
once before.)

Regarding the rest of your discussion, I am locked up by the
idea, supported by the "asymptotic relationship," that the time
of arrival of a beam photon at the accelerated sail depends on
the sail's acceleration.  My intuitive preference, unsupported
by any analysis, is that the time of reception of light by an
accelerating object depends only on the distance from the
source, not on the acceleration of the object.

Let me try a derivation based on distance and velocity only.
(I'm not totally comfortable with it, but it may be usable as
a starting point for discussion.)

Let's consider a beam of photons that is catching up with an
accelerating object receding at an apparent velocity v and a
proper velocity u, where u = gamma * v.  (Incidentally, u = at,
where t is the apparent, not proper, time.)  The energy of
each photon is Doppler-shifted downward by the factor
sqrt[(1 - v)/(1 + v)].  The arrival rate of the photons at the
object is also reduced by the Doppler factor, so the power re-
ceived by the sail is reduced from the power radiated by the
source by the factor (1 - v)/(1 + v).  [If v were given by at'
(which it isn't), one could deduce that the power received by
the sail after an acceleration time of 1/a would be reduced to
zero, consistent with my recollection of your earlier remarks.]
>From the actual relations, as stated above, the received power
would be reduced by the factor (1 - at/gamma)/(1 + at/gamma),
where gamma is sqrt(1 + u^2), which is sqrt[1 + (at)^2].  Then,
if the object were to accelerate at 1 lt-yr/yr^2 (0.9686 g) for
1 yr proper time, the apparent time would be sinh(1) yr, and
the received power would be 13.5 percent of the radiated power.
For acceleration times of 1 and 2 yr and for acceleration
levels of 1 and 0.5 lt-yr/yr^2, the calculated ratio of receiv-
ed power to radiated power is given in the table below:

    Acceleration time     ratio of received to radiated power
         (yr)                   (a = 1)      (a = 0.5)
          1                     0.1353        0.3275
          2                     0.0183        0.0663

What have I missed?

Of course all the considerations above ignore the spillage of
beam power around the sail.  The combined effects of Doppler-
shifting (or whatever) and beam spillage will certainly raise
the ratio of radiated power to captured power to even more
exorbitant levels.

This letter is intended to be more exploratory than analytic.
I need more information to verify your "asymptotic relation-
ship."  I just haven't yet had the time to invest the required
concentration, and I hope that further comments by you would
give some clues to make the verification less time-consuming.
Also, I'm sure that it's a lighter load on you to answer spec-
ific questions than to try to address all plausible questions
in a write-up.

Regards, Rex

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From: Steve VanDevender 
To: DotarSojat@aol.com
Cc: stevev@efn.org, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
Subject: Re: your starship-design email of 8/20
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 23:13:42 -0700

DotarSojat@aol.com writes:
 > Hi Steve
 > 
 > >I've recently been working on the physics of light signals
 > >between a "stationary" object and an object undergoing rela-
 > >tivistic acceleration relative to itself.
 > 
 > I think I have seen two previous remarks by you to the effect
 > that an object accelerating at one g can not receive light
 > from behind after an acceleration time of about one year.

Hmm, the inadequacies of English for discussing relativistic physics
bite again.  No, the accelerating object sees light from an inertial
(non-accelerating) object behind it forever; there is no proper time of
the accelerating object where the inertial object cannot be perceived
(however faint and doppler-shifted).  However, as the accelerating
object's proper time goes to infinity, the light from the inertial
object is seen to come from proper times of the inertial object that
approach a finite limit.  In the case of an accelerating object
initially coincident and non-moving with respect to the inertial object,
that finite time limit of intertial time is 1/a -- the accelerating
object sees the inertial object forever, but when the accelerating
object reads a clock on the inertial object, the reading on that clock
approaches a time 1/a after its departure.

 > [Note: 1 g = 1.0324 lt-yr/yr^2.  Incidentally, I prefer units
 > of yr for time, lt-yr for distance, lt-yr/yr for velocity and
 > lt-yr/yr^2 for acceleration.  With these units, values for
 > interstellar flight are all O(1).]  I'm not organized well
 > enough to retrieve your previous remarks to enable me to com-
 > pare them with my recollection stated above.  Please correct
 > me if I've misremembered.  The existence of previous remarks
 > indicates that 1) you have been working on this before "recent-
 > ly", and/or 2) you may possibly have run across some earlier
 > work relating to this.  I admit that your previous remarks
 > triggered a feeling of familiarity with the idea, but I can't
 > determine what that feeling might be based on.

Unfortunately it appears that the archive of mailing list letters at
http://sunsite.unc.edu/lunar/ssdbbs.html is no longer accessible.  I
would have to do some hunting to see if I have any of the material saved
in my personal archives.  I intuitively worked out the notion of the
relationsihp between proper time of an emitter and proper time of an
accelerating receiver some time ago, but recently made progress in the
solution of a more complicated problem of which this was a special case
(tracing light rays from an arbitrary point in spacetime to the
worldline of an accelerated object).

I've been working on learning various aspects of relativistic physics
for some time, as Timothy can tell you.  My particular interest is in
developing a spaceflight simulator that handles special relativity
effects, and so my research has been concentrated in deriving various
things I need to accomplish that, like modeling the spatial locations of
multiple relativistic objects and determining their apparent visual
locations; in other words, to concretely calculate things like "what do
stars in the solar neighborhood and a passing starship look like when
you are travelling towards Tau Ceti at 0.9c?"

 > >Consider an object undergoing uniform acceleration relative to
 > >itself; its frame position at its proper time t1 is:
 > >
 > >[ t x ] = [ 1/a * sinh(a * t1)
 > >            1/a * cosh(a * t1) ]
 > 
 > I interpret "acceleration relative to itself" as "proper accel-
 > eration" (i.e., acceleration measured by an inertial platform
 > mounted on the object), but I'm unfamiliar with the meanings of
 > "frame position" and "[ t x ]".  ("Coordinates"?  "(t,x)," with
 > the ordinate first?  Incidentally, I'm of the opinion that the
 > Minkowski (x,t) coordinate system was a mistake.  It should be
 > replaced by the "Epstein" (x,t') coordinate system, in which
 > the "interval equation" conforms geometrically with the Pythag-
 > orean theorem.  I have adopted the Lorentz-transformation nota-
 > tion of t for apparent time and t' for proper time.)  I'm also
 > uncertain about the equation stated above.  Similar equations
 > that I'm familiar with are
 > 
 >      t = 1/a * sinh(a * t')          and
 >      x = 1/a * [cosh(a * t') - 1]   .
 > 
 > I can't quite rationalize these with your stated equation.  (I
 > remember that you left out the [- 1] in the x equation at first
 > once before.)

These notational problems seem to keep coming up, since we all seem to
have learned or developed various idiosyncratic notations for handling
problems in relativistic physics.

In my own work I've learned to distinguish between "proper time" (time
experienced along the worldline of an object) and "frame position" (the
location of that object in some frame of reference, whose coordinates
include time in that frame).  I generally describe frame positions as a
vector function of proper time.  The vectors I use are modeled after the
ones used in _Gravitation_, which put the time coordinate first.  For
example, a non-accelerating object has a frame position function of the
form S = V * t' + S0 where S is the frame position vector, S0 is the
frame position at t' == 0, V is what you below call "proper velocity" in
vector form, and t' is the proper time of the object.

At least we haven't run up against the most idiosyncratic nature of my
notation, which includes the use of what I dubbed the "Lorentz dot
product":  the Lorentz dot product [ u0 u1 u2 u3 ] dot [ v0 v1 v2 v3 ]
is u0*v0 - u1*v1 - u2*v2 - u3*v3 (other people flip the sign of the
result).  For example, if in a frame an observer sees an object move
through displacement [ v1 v2 v3 ] in a unit of time, then we can
describe the frame velocity as V = [ 1 v1 v2 v3 ], and the factor gamma
between that frame velocity and the proper velocity U as 1 / sqrt(V dot V),
where "dot" is the above-mentioned Lorentz dot product.  Because I'm
interested in the computational aspects of how to solve these problems
and looking for efficient ways to do these computations, I've found that
recasting a lot of the math in terms of the Lorentz dot product is very
useful, if a bit obfuscating.

The derivation in _Gravitation_, chapter 6, gives the equations:

t = 1/a * sinh(a * t')
x = 1/a * cosh(a * t')

All that's different is that they choose a different origin that makes
things a little simpler for their solution; their curve is shifted right
along the x-axis by 1/a, and the asymptotes of the hyberbolic curve are
simply t = x and t = -x.

 > Regarding the rest of your discussion, I am locked up by the
 > idea, supported by the "asymptotic relationship," that the time
 > of arrival of a beam photon at the accelerated sail depends on
 > the sail's acceleration.  My intuitive preference, unsupported
 > by any analysis, is that the time of reception of light by an
 > accelerating object depends only on the distance from the
 > source, not on the acceleration of the object.

The _proper time_ of arrival of a photon on the sail relative to the
_proper time_ of emission of the photon is asymptotic, in that as the
proper time of emission approaches a finite limit, the proper time of
reception goes to infinity.  Note that "proper time of emission" and
"proper time of reception" are certainly not in the same frame.  Since
the distance between emitter and receiver depends on the acceleration of
the receiver, clearly the time of reception is influenced by the
acceleration.

 > Let me try a derivation based on distance and velocity only.
 > (I'm not totally comfortable with it, but it may be usable as
 > a starting point for discussion.)
 > 
 > Let's consider a beam of photons that is catching up with an
 > accelerating object receding at an apparent velocity v and a
 > proper velocity u, where u = gamma * v.  (Incidentally, u = at,
 > where t is the apparent, not proper, time.)  The energy of
 > each photon is Doppler-shifted downward by the factor
 > sqrt[(1 - v)/(1 + v)].  The arrival rate of the photons at the
 > object is also reduced by the Doppler factor, so the power re-
 > ceived by the sail is reduced from the power radiated by the
 > source by the factor (1 - v)/(1 + v).  [If v were given by at'
 > (which it isn't), one could deduce that the power received by
 > the sail after an acceleration time of 1/a would be reduced to
 > zero, consistent with my recollection of your earlier remarks.]
 > >From the actual relations, as stated above, the received power
 > would be reduced by the factor (1 - at/gamma)/(1 + at/gamma),
 > where gamma is sqrt(1 + u^2), which is sqrt[1 + (at)^2].  Then,
 > if the object were to accelerate at 1 lt-yr/yr^2 (0.9686 g) for
 > 1 yr proper time, the apparent time would be sinh(1) yr, and
 > the received power would be 13.5 percent of the radiated power.
 > For acceleration times of 1 and 2 yr and for acceleration
 > levels of 1 and 0.5 lt-yr/yr^2, the calculated ratio of receiv-
 > ed power to radiated power is given in the table below:
 > 
 >     Acceleration time     ratio of received to radiated power
 >          (yr)                   (a = 1)      (a = 0.5)
 >           1                     0.1353        0.3275
 >           2                     0.0183        0.0663
 > 
 > What have I missed?

You haven't really missed anything, and one can look at the relationship
of received power to emitted power just as well in terms of Doppler
shifting as by using the relationship between emitter time and receiver
time (and in a fundamental sense, they are the same thing expressed in
different terms; Doppler shifting is merely the result of different
rates of elapsed proper time between an emitter and a receiver).

However, your analysis doesn't consider at what time in the emitter's
frame the photons must be emitted to reach the receiver at a given
proper time of the receiver.  I think the easiest way to describe this
is with a space-time diagram, but it would be rather hard to include the
diagram in this letter.  I'll try to describe the diagram in words so
you can draw it yourself and hopefully see what's going on.

The parametric equation [ t, x ] = 1/a * [ sinh(a * t'), (cosh(a * t')-1) ]
describes a hyperbola with asymptotes t = x + 1/a and t = x - 1/a
approached as t' goes to infinity.  So draw this hyperbola and its
asymptotes on paper, putting t on the y-axis and x on the x-axis; the
hyperbola represents the worldine of the receiver.  Also draw a heavy
line up the y-axis representing the worldline of the emitter.  Now you
can draw lines with slope 1 (or parallel to the upper asymptote) between
the worldline of the emitter and the worldline of the receiver
representing light rays sent from the emitter in the direction of of the
receiver.  Note that because of this asymptote rays that leave the
emitter after time 1/a can never reach the receiver (they all travel
above the asymptote), and that as the emitter time approaches 1/a
photons emitted quite close together in emitter proper time are received
with a much larger difference in receiver proper time.

Or I could do this up as a GIF and arrange to mail it to you or give you
a web page URL to pick it up from.

 > Of course all the considerations above ignore the spillage of
 > beam power around the sail.  The combined effects of Doppler-
 > shifting (or whatever) and beam spillage will certainly raise
 > the ratio of radiated power to captured power to even more
 > exorbitant levels.

Indeed; the inverse square law will make things even worse than either
of us have talked about so far.

 > This letter is intended to be more exploratory than analytic.
 > I need more information to verify your "asymptotic relation-
 > ship."  I just haven't yet had the time to invest the required
 > concentration, and I hope that further comments by you would
 > give some clues to make the verification less time-consuming.
 > Also, I'm sure that it's a lighter load on you to answer spec-
 > ific questions than to try to address all plausible questions
 > in a write-up.

I'm happy to answer the questions; of the people in this forum, you and
Timothy seem to have the best grasp of relativistic physics, and I'm
very appreciative of opportunities to test my understanding against
other people's knowledge.

 > Regards, Rex

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From: Steve VanDevender 
To: DotarSojat@aol.com
Cc: stevev@efn.org, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
Subject: The dreaded derivation, Re: your starship-design email of 8/20
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 23:09:42 -0700

Now that I have a little time to kill, let me derive in more concrete
mathematical terms the equations that show the relationship between
proper time of emission vs. proper time of reception for a system
consisting of an inertial transmitter and a uniformly-accelerating
receiver.

First, a few preliminaries.  Let the dot product operator 'dot' be
defined by:

[ u0 u1 u2 u3 ] dot [ v0 v1 v2 v3 ] = u0*v0 - u1*v1 - u2*v2 - u3*v3

Then the spacetime interval for a displacement U = [ u0 u1 u2 u3 ]
is sqrt(U dot U), if U describes a timelike or lightlike interval (U dot
U >= 0).

We can describe the worldline of an object undergoing uniform
acceleration with the parametric equation in t':

S(t') = 1/a^2 * [ a * sinh(a * t')
                  ax * cosh(a * t')
		  ay * cosh(a * t')
		  az * cosh(a * t') ]

where A = [ 0 ax ay az ] describes the acceleration, and a = abs(A) =
sqrt(-(A dot A)).

Note that at time t' = 0, S(t') = 1/a^2 * [ 0 ax ay az ] and the object
is instantaneously at rest in the frame of description.

We have an observer P whose spacetime location is [ t x y z ].  We want
to find possible paths that correspond to light rays passing from S(t')
to P, or from P to S(t').  We can characterize this relationship with
the equation:

(P - S(t'))^2 = 0

That is, values of S(t') for which the displacement between P and S(t')
has the spacetime interval 0, or a lightlike interval.  If we solve for
t', we can get the frame locations of the accelerated object relative to
P for which light can pass between P and S(t').

Expanding, we get:

   (t - (a/a^2) * sinh(a * t'))^2
 - (x - (ax/a^2) * cosh(a * t'))^2
 - (y - (ay/a^2) * cosh(a * t'))^2
 - (z - (az/a^2) * cosh(a * t'))^2
 = 0

The math to solve this, is, as you might guess, exceptionally tedious.
If you're really interested, I can expand on the steps to the solution
in detail, but since you both seem to be competent algebraists, I will
only point out the particularly helpful steps to the solution that might
not be immediately obvious in the middle of all the rote work.

Once you expand the above, you can collect these terms together:

(a^2/a^4) * sinh^2(a * t') - ((ax^2 + ay^2 + az^2)/a^4) * cosh^2(a * t')

Note that a^2 = (ax^2 + ay^2 + az^2), and that sinh^2(u) -
cosh^2(u) = -1, which means those terms simplify to merely:

-1/a^2

At this point, you have an equation with several terms in sinh(a * t')
and cosh(a * t').  It is then useful to do a couple of things.  Multiply
through by 1/a^2 to get rid of those denominators (this is OK because
you should still have an equation of the form {blah} = 0).  Then rewrite
the sinh and cosh terms in terms of exp:

sinh(a * t') = 1/2 * (exp(a * t') - exp(-a * t'))
cosh(a * t') = 1/2 * (exp(a * t') + exp(-a * t'))

Once you've done this, expand the terms and multiply through by exp(a *
t') to get all the terms as multiples of exp(2 * a * t'), multiples of
exp(a * t'), or constants.  If you did the same things I did, then at
this point you should have:

   exp(2 * a * t') * (ax * x + ay * y + az * z - a * t)
 + exp(a * t') * (a^2 * (t^2 - x^2 - y^2 - z^2) - 1)
 + (ax * x + ay * y + az * z + a * t)

This can be written in terms of the original vector quantities A and P
as:

   exp(2 * a * t') * (-(A dot P) - a * t)
 + exp(a * t') * (-(A dot A) * (P dot P) - 1)
 + (-(A dot P) + a * t)

This is a quadratic equation in terms of exp(a * t'), so a solution for
t' can be obtained through the quadratic formula.

Let

f = -(A dot P) - a * t
g = -(A dot A) * (P dot P) - 1
h = -(A dot P) + a * t

Then

exp(a * t') = (-g +/- sqrt(g^2 - 4 * f * h)) / (2 * f)

t' = 1/a * ln((-g +/- sqrt(g^2 - 4 * f * h)) / (2 * f))

I still probably need to do a bunch of work on rearranging this into a
simplified form that would also be numerically accurate in the extreme
cases, but I've found it adequate for my purposes so far.

The reason that I want this general of a solution is that I want to be
able to model accelerating objects in a general way in my planned
spaceflight simulator; I want to be able to accurately calculate the
apparent visual location and appearance of an accelerated object, or
calculate the appearance of other objects in the universe as seen by the
accelerated object.

There are a couple of interesting properties of this solution.  You
should note that there are regions in which only one solution produces a
real value for t', and regions in which there is no real solution for
t'; in other words, there are places where an observer cannot see the
accelerated object, places where the accelerated object cannot see the
observer, and even places where neither can see each other.  For a
diagram illustrating these properties, see chapter 6 of _Gravitation_.

Now, if you got through all that, we can obtain substantially simpler
solutions for the case of interest, a "stationary" emitter that is
sending light signals to a uniformly-accelerating receiver that was
initially at rest and coincident with the emitter.  First, we can reduce
the problem into only one space dimension to reduce the complexity of
the math.  Then:

A = [ 0 a ]

The frame location P of the emitter at the emitter's proper time t is:

P = [ t 1/a ]

The frame location of the accelerated object at its proper time t' is

1/a * [ sinh(a * t') cosh(a * t') ]

We can use the two-dimensional version of the Lorentz dot product to
calculate the terms f, g, and h from t, a, A and P to obtain a
much-simplified solution for t' in terms of t, or the proper time of
reception for the acclerating object in terms of the proper time of
emission:

t' = -ln(1 - a * t) / a

Note what this solution implies.  Unlike many relativity problems, we
are not concerned about times or positions purely in terms of abstract
frame coordinates -- these describe what the observers _see_, not what
they measure in their reference frames.

More importantly, the solution for time of reception vs. time of
emission is asymptotic -- as t approaches 1/a, t' approaches infinity.
This is the purely mathematical statement of what I was trying to
describe more intuitively before: in order to maintain constant
acceleration, the amount of power beamed to the starship rises rapidly
as the time approches 1/a in the emitter's frame, and that no matter how
far out the starship goes, power is never beamed for longer than 1/a in
the emitter's frame, because power beamed after that time would never
reach the receiver.  (In practical terms, of course, indefinitely
sustained continuous acceleration is impossible, so this statement isn't
quite as dire as it sounds).

The other solution (because of the +/- in the general solution)
describes the proper time of emission of a light signal from the
accelerating object in terms of the time of reception for the
"stationary" observer:

t' = ln(1 + a * t) / a

This other, seemingly paradoxical result, is that while the starship
sees the emitter slowly approach the time 1/a as the starship's proper
time goes to infinity, the emitter can see signals beamed back from the
starship forever, and the signals from the starship come from starship
proper times that don't approach some finite limit.

From popserver Wed Aug 28 06:21:02 GMT 1996
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References: <960826003919_509856974@emout16.mail.aol.com>
	<199608280609.XAA14409@tzadkiel.efn.org>
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: Steve VanDevender 
Cc: DotarSojat@aol.com, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
Subject: The dreaded derivation, Re: your starship-design email of 8/20
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 23:20:37 -0700

Steve VanDevender writes:
 > We have an observer P whose spacetime location is [ t x y z ].  We want
 > to find possible paths that correspond to light rays passing from S(t')
 > to P, or from P to S(t').  We can characterize this relationship with
 > the equation:
 > 
 > (P - S(t'))^2 = 0

Sigh.  While editing that last letter, I omitted the explanation that I
use shorthand U^2 = U dot U for vector quantities; I use that convention
frequently in my notebooks, but it would probably help you to know that
explicitly when reading the above-quoted section.

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From: DotarSojat@aol.com
To: stevev@efn.org
cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
Subject: Re: The dreaded derivation...
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 16:30:17 -0400

Hi Steve

Thanks for the derivation in your email of 8/28.  I'll save it as
a reference to help understand Lorentz dot-product manipulations
if I ever run across them again.  Actually, the description of the
space-time diagram in your 8/26 email was more effective in con-
veying the relation to my intuition.  Having gone through that
thought process, I can now rewrite the derivation more succinctly:

The distance, x, of the sail after accelerating at a level, a, for
a proper time, t', is
     x = [cosh(a * t') - 1]/a   .

The apparent (Earth) time, t, at which the sail reaches x is
     t = [sinh(a * t')]/a   .

The time, delta-t, that it takes light from Earth to reach the
sail at x is
     delta-t = t - te
             = x/c
or           = x          for c = 1 lt-yr/yr,

where te is the Earth time at which the light was emitted.

Solving for te gives
     te = t - x
        = [1 + sinh(a * t') - cosh(a * t')]/a   .

Replacing sinh and cosh with their exponential forms gives
     te = [1 - exp(-a * t')]/a   .

And solving for t' gives
     t' = -[ln(1 - a * te)]/a   .                          Q.E.D.

I'll be looking forward to the way you'll treat the "dreaded
derivation" for the SD Group.  I'd feel honored if you used any
part of the above approach.  You started a very interesting
learning process with your email of 8/20 to the Group.

"If mankind is ever to achieve the ultimate goal of traveling to
the stars, we will need an engineering understanding of relativ-
ity" (RGF, IDA Paper P-2361, Oct 1990).

Regards, Rex
 

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From: DotarSojat@aol.com
To: stevev@efn.org
cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
Subject: Reply to your letter of 9/01
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:21:19 -0400

Hi Steve

Thanks for the kind words about my derivation of 9/01.  Use any
or all of it as you see fit.  It was your idea in the begin-
ning.

>I wonder what the worldline would look like for an object that
>is accelerated by a constant-output emitter?  In other words,
>the emitter would send constant output power, meaning the re-
>ceiver would experience gradually decreasing received power
>and acceleration as its proper time increases.

For a power, Pe, sent out by an emitter, the power received by
a sail (ignoring inverse-square effects) receding at a veloc-
ity, beta lt-yr/yr, is
     Pr = Pe * sqrt[(1 - beta)/(1 + beta)]
                   ... Doppler shift
        = Pe * gamma * (1 - beta)
                   ... gamma = 1/sqrt(1 - beta^2)
        = Pe * [cosh(theta) - sinh(theta)]
                   ... gamma = cosh(theta); beta = tanh(theta)
                       (definition of velocity parameter, theta)
        = Pe * exp(-theta)
                   ... using exp forms of hyp functions.
(I believe this expression, with theta = a * t' for constant a,
is the source of the logarithmic dependence you have been
citing.)

The velocity-parameter equation of motion for a thrust, T =
Pr/c, applied to a mass, M, is
     T = M * d(theta)/dt' = Pr/c = Pe * exp(-theta)
                   ... c = 1 lt-yr/yr,
which gives the "differential equation"
     exp(theta) * d(theta) = (Pe/M) * dt'   .

Integrating from theta = 0 at t' = 0, with Pe constant, gives
     [exp(theta) - 1] = Pe * t'/M   ,

so the desired description of motion should be
     theta = ln[(Pe * t'/M) + 1]   .

For one space dimension,
     dx/dt' = u = sinh(theta)
     dt/dt' = gamma = cosh(theta)   .

Both of these should be integrable (integrands of the form
exp[ln()], using the exponential forms of the hyperbolic func-
tions), to give the worldline.

I hope this is the answer you were looking for.

Regards, Rex

From popserver Mon Sep  9 02:13:12 GMT 1996
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	["4654" "Sun" "8" "September" "1996" "03:06:02" "-0400" "DotarSojat@aol.com" "DotarSojat@aol.com" nil "129" "Continuation of my 9/5 letter" "^From:" nil nil "9" nil "Continuation of my 9/5 letter" nil nil]
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From: DotarSojat@aol.com
To: stevev@efn.org
cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
Subject: Continuation of my 9/5 letter
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 03:06:02 -0400

Hi Steve

[Note: Kevin too has suggested, on 9/4,

>How about a mission which has a constant beam power, the
>acceleration would drop off toward the turnaround point.  In
>this case, the crew would start off with earth-like gravity,
>and towards the middle of the trip, the gravity would be more
>lunar-like. ... The advantage would be simplified beaming
>requirements, and the disadvantage would be a slightly longer
>flight time.
>
>Questions:
>What would the top speed relative to Earth be?
>What is the total trip time. (crew time?)
>How much of this time is spent at less than 1/2 G?]

To pick up where I suspended my derivation--

....the desired description of the motion should be
     theta = ln[(Pe * t'/M) + 1]   .

At the beginning of the flight, when thrust = To, acceleration
= ao and the received power, Pr, equals the emitted power, Pe,
     To = M * ao = Pe/c   ,
which leads to
     ao = Pe/(c * M) --> Pe/M   (for c = 1 lt-yr/yr),
which makes the desired description of the motion
     theta = ln(ao * t' + 1)   .

For one space dimension,
     dx/dt' = u = sinh(theta)
            = 0.5 * [exp(theta) - exp(-theta)]
            = 0.5 * [(ao * t' + 1) - 1/(ao * t' + 1)]   .

Integrating this from x = 0 at t' = 0 gives
     x = 0.5 * (0.5 * ao * t'^2 + t' - theta/ao)   .

The apparent (Earth) time, t, for the ship time, t', is
obtained from
     dt/dt' = gamma = cosh(theta)
            = 0.5 * [exp(theta) + exp(-theta)]
            = 0.5 * [(ao * t' + 1) + 1/(ao * t' + 1)]   .

Integrating this from t = 0 at t' = 0 gives
     t = 0.5 * (0.5 * ao * t'^2 + t' + theta/ao)   .

The Earth time of emission, te, of the energy that arrives at
the sail at t' is simply (for c = 1)
     te = t - x   .

The proper velocity, u, is given by
     u = sinh(theta)   .

The instantaneous proper acceleration, a, is given by the
velocity-parameter equation of motion--
     a = c * d(theta)/dt'
       = ao/(ao * t' + 1)       (for c = 1).

Putting these relations together in the Fortran program
CONOUTEM.FOR, which is appended, gives the following values of
theta, distance, proper velocity, instantaneous acceleration,
Earth time for t' and Earth time of emission for reception at
t', as a function of ship time, t', for an initial acceleration
of 1 g,
     
 Tship    Theta     Dist   Prop Vel   Accel   TEarth    Temit
  (yr)    (rad)   (lt-yr) (lt-yr/yr)   (g)     (yr)      (yr)
   0.0   0.0000   0.0000    0.0000   1.0000   0.0000   0.0000
   0.5   0.4162   0.1130    0.4283   0.6595   0.5161   0.4031
   1.0   0.7092   0.4146    0.7702   0.4920   1.1016   0.6870
   1.5   0.9355   0.8776    1.0781   0.3924   1.7838   0.9062
   2.0   1.1200   1.4900    1.3693   0.3263   2.5748   1.0848
   2.5   1.2756   2.2453    1.6509   0.2793   3.4809   1.2356
   3.0   1.4103   3.1399    1.9266   0.2441   4.5059   1.3660
   3.5   1.5290   4.1712    2.1983   0.2168   5.6522   1.4810
   4.0   1.6350   5.3377    2.4673   0.1949   6.9215   1.5837
   4.5   1.7309   6.6382    2.7343   0.1771   8.3148   1.6766
   5.0   1.8184   8.0718    2.9999   0.1623   9.8332   1.7613

For an example trip to a star 4.4906 (= 2 * 2.2453) lt-yr from
Earth, the ship would accelerate for 2.5 ship years, reach a
maximum proper velocity of 1.6509 lt-yr/yr at an apparent
(Earth) time of 3.4809 yr, and at turnover receive power emit-
ted from Earth at 1.2356 yr after the departure date, giving an
instantaneous acceleration of 0.2793 g.

These results seem to support Kevin's intuitive inferences.

Please let me know if you find anything wrong or poorly stated
here or in my 9/5 letter.

We can address the deceleration phase (here assumed without
justification to be a mirror image of the acceleration phase)
in a subsequent dialogue.  Timothy may have already covered
it adequately.

Regards, Rex


ADDENDUM

      PROGRAM CONOUTEM                              !9/7/96
  101 FORMAT(2X, 21H Initial Accel (g) = )
  102 FORMAT(1X, 6H Tship, 3X, 6H Theta, 5X, 5H Dist, 2X,
     & 9H Prop Vel, 3X, 6H Accel, 2X, 7H TEarth, 2X, 6H Temit)
  103 FORMAT(3X, F4.1, 3X, F6.4, 3X, F7.4, 4X, F7.4, 3X, F6.4,
     & 3X, F6.4, 2X, F6.4)
    1 CONTINUE
      WRITE(*,101)
      READ(*,*) AGO
      IF(AGO .EQ. 0.) GO TO 99
      AO = 1.0324 * AGO
      WRITE(*,102)
      DO 10 IT = 1, 11
      FT = IT - 1
      TIM = 0.5 * FT
      ARG = AO * TIM + 1.
      THET = LOG(ARG)
      DIST = 0.5 * (0.5 * AO * TIM*TIM + TIM - THET/AO)
      PVEL = 0.5 * (ARG - 1./ARG)
      ACC = AGO/ARG
      TAPP = 0.5 * (0.5 * AO * TIM*TIM + TIM + THET/AO)
      TEM = TAPP - DIST
      WRITE(*,103) TIM, THET, DIST, PVEL, ACC, TAPP, TEM
   10 CONTINUE
      GO TO 1
   99 STOP
      END

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: stevev@efn.org, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: The size of the problem (reply to Steve's 8/19 letter)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 13:27:25 +0100

Hi Steve,

It took quite some time, to respond, but here it is. In the beginning I had
some trouble getting the same formula you did. Somehow I got to a formula
that gave the same answers, while I was not able to rewrite it so that it
looked like yours.
In the meantime I have seen how you and Rex got to the answer, so that is
clear now.

However I am not certain about your final conclusion. While the calculations
are right, the interpretation may be wrong.


>Note that this is an asymptotic relationship -- as the frame time t of
>the beamer approaches 1/a, the object proper time t1 approaches
>infinity.  This consequently means that the beamer must send energy for
>any possible trip within a time 1/a, no matter how far the acclerated
>object goes, and that the rate at which power is sent increases
>asymptotically to infinity as t approaches 1/a.  The relative rate of
>time passage between the beamer and the accelerated object at frame time
>t has the relationship
>
>dt1 / dt = 1/(1 - a*t)
>
>In the case where a = 9.8 m/s^2 (or in geometrized units, 3.267e-8 c/s),
>the asymptote is reached within about year of beamer time (3.06e8 s).

Should have been 3.06e7

>The good news is that to boost an object at 1 g up to its turnaround
>point and then provide deceleration power to its destination, you beam
>power for no more than two years, no matter how far away you send the
>object.

Why two years? Once the ship is at turnaround, the beaming station is not
limited by the above calculated time of 3.06e7 seconds.

>The bad news is that at the turnaround point you are beaming
>some large multiple of the power needed to keep the object accelerating
>at 1 g at the beginning and end of the trip, because of the relative
>rate of time lapse between the beamer and the accelerated object.
>
>In fact, given the relationship between t1 and t, we can characterize
>just what this multiple is based on halfway trip time of the object.
>Solving t1 = -(ln(1 - a * t))/a for t, we get:
>
>t = (1 - e^(-a*t1))/a
>
>Substituting into 1/(1 - a*t), we get:
>
>dt1 / dt = e^(a*t1)
>
>In other words, the maximum power output at turnaround is exponentially
>related to trip time for the object.

I assume you mean not the trip time, but the acceleration time limit.

Anyway I think your conclusion is not right. While in Earth's frame the
signal-receive-interval increases exponentially, to the ship the interval
stays the same, since its time slows down exponentially:

t = 1/a * sinh(a * t1) = 1/a (Exp[a t1]-Exp[-a t1])/2
When t1 becomes bigger, the term Exp[-a t1] is goes to 1 and is neglectable.
So then t is approximately equal to Exp[a t1]/2a

So the people in the ship would not notice any difference if Earth keeps
sending in regular intervals. Well of course they would notice the
red-shift, but I believe that's all.


Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: stevev@efn.org, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Mistake
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 13:29:23 +0100

Hi Steve,

Bad news, I've continuously been thinking about the letter I wrote you 3
days ago. Now I have discovered that I made a mistake.

I wrote: "While in Earth's frame the signal-receive-interval increases
exponentially, to the ship the interval stays the same, since its time slows
down exponentially."

Today I did some less intuitive thinking and soon figured out that I was wrong.
Assuming that in Earth's frame the signal-receive-interval increases
exponentially was where I went wrong, it increases with 1/(1 - a t).

Sorry for the confusion

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: stevev@efn.org, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: Mistake
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 12:21:15 +0100

Hello Steve,

> > Sorry for the confusion
>
>Don't worry about it.  I've certainly made my share of mathematical
>errors.  And not only are these fine points of relativistic physics
>often counterintuitive, but they are also quite hard to talk about
>without resorting to elaborate mathematics.

Thanks

>I am interested to know the equation you got that produces the same
>results as mine without looking at all the same.

The result of my best calculations was:

               a t0 (-2 c + a t)
     c ArcSinh[------------------]
t1 =             2 c (-c + a t)
     -----------------------------
                     a

where t is the emit-time in Earth's frame
and t1 is the recieve-time in the ship's frame

Note that in this formula I did not use your definition of c=1. This morning
I tried to do the same with c=1 but it gave me even more elaborate formulas.

te=Emit time in Earth's frame  (your t)
tr=Receive time in Earth's frame
te'=Emit time in the ship's frame
tr'=Receive time in the ship's frame (your t1)
f[x]=Function f determined by variable x

The main idea is that I solve:

x[tr]=c(tr-te)

I first try to get a formula for x that does have a t in it instead of a t':

x[t]=1/a Cosh[ArcSinh[a t]]

Then I try to solve te, which in this case gives me a formula that I don't
want to write down.

Having found te, I can easely find te', just by using:

t'=1/a ArcSinh[a t]


>Once good point you had in your last post was that you really don't have
>only two years to send power for the boost and deceleration phases of a
>1 g constant-acceleration mission.  You do, however, have only one year
>to send the power for the boost phase.  The situation is actually the
>worst for the so-called "Forward sail" design, involving the use of a
>detachable reflecting sail that reflects the beamed power back to the
>ship for deceleration -- in that case the power continues to accelerate
>the reflecting sail and therefore more drastically limits how long you
>have to send power to be used through the entire mission.

I think that when one uses the "Forward sail" the time would even be shorter
than 2 years. The reason for this is that the sail will (after it is
detached) probably accelerate faster than the ship, since it has less mass.
I cannot directly write down what the maximum power-emit time would be since
it involves 2 different accelerations.

Timothy

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: stevev@efn.org
Subject: Re: (Re:)^4 starship-design: The Size of the Problem
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 18:39:52 +0100

Hi Steve,

A while ago (August 19th) you sent this letter to SD.

>While I haven't had time to do a more complete write-up, I thought I
>would also mention an interesting corollary to Rex's analysis of the
>energy requirements of beaming power to accelerate a relativistic
>spacecraft.  Not only is a large amount of power required, but the
>beaming equipment must be capable of (typically) output at a rate that
>can be over two orders of magnitude larger than is needed to accelerate
>the spacecraft at the start of the trip.
>
>I'm going to present some of the math without proof or demonstration at
>this time, but I'm sure it will be interesting fodder for discussion
>(either because Timothy or Rex will find any mistakes I might have made
>or because it shows another facet of difficulty to the problem of
>beaming power).
>
>I've recently been working on the physics of light signals between a
>"stationary" object and an object undergoing relativistic acceleration
>relative to it.  Consider an object undergoing uniform accleration
>relative to itself; its frame position at its proper time t1 is:
>
>[ t x ] = [ 1/a * sinh(a * t1)
>            1/a * cosh(a * t1) ]

Do you still have a copy of that letter? For some reason I only have the
first part of it, the rest seems to have been deleted by unknown forces.
I'd like to have a complete letter once more, if you still have it, would
you be so kind to sent it to me?

(Note that I did get the complete letter originally.)

Timothy


 

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: DotarSojat@aol.com, stevev@efn.org
Subject: Re: starship-design: Motion of sail driven by constant-power beam
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 19:38:45 +0100

Hello Rex,

At 9/11 you wrote:

>DERIVATION
>
>For a power, Pe, sent out by an emitter, the power received by
>a sail (ignoring inverse-square effects) that is receding at an
>apparent velocity, beta lt-yr/yr, is
>     Pr = Pe * sqrt[(1 - beta)/(1 + beta)]
>                   ....Doppler shift
>        = Pe * gamma * (1 - beta)
>                   ....gamma = 1/sqrt(1 - beta^2)
>        = Pe * [cosh(theta) - sinh(theta)]
>                   ....gamma = cosh(theta); beta = tanh(theta)
>                       (definition of velocity parameter, theta)
>        = Pe * exp(-theta)
>                   ....using exp forms of hyp functions.
>
>(I believe this relation, with theta = a * t' for constant a, is
>the source of the logarithmic time dependence introduced by Steve
>in his email of 8/20 to the Group.)

But why do you believe that?
Steve's results are not related to the red-shift, they are based on the
signal travel time, which increases exponentially with the trip-time.

Am I right to say that during constant acceleration not only the energy of
the photons, but also the amount of photons decreases?
Steve's calculations pointed to the amount (density) of photons, while yours
seem to point only to their energy.

Timothy

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From: DotarSojat@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
cc: stevev@efn.org
Subject: Doppler effect
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 03:13:25 -0400

Hi Timothy

On 9/30, you wrote--

>Steve's results are not related to the red-shift, they are based
>on the signal travel time, which increases exponentially with
>the trip-time.
>
>Am I right to say that during constant acceleration not only the
>energy of the photons, but also the amount of photons decreases?
>Steve's calculations pointed to the amount (density) of photons,
>while yours seem to point only to their energy.

I admit I wrote on 8/26--

>The energy of each photon is Doppler-shifted downward...  The
>arrival rate of the photons ... is also reduced by the Doppler
>factor...

I preceded the derivation that includes the above quote with the
remark "I'm not totally comfortable with it...," in which I was
referring to (without explicitly so stating) invoking the Doppler
shift twice to cover two effects.

In response to my 8/26 note, Steve wrote (also on 8/26)--

>...one can look at the relationship of received power to emitted
>power just as well in terms of Doppler shifting as by using the
>relationship between emitter time and receiver time (and in a
>fundamental sense, they are the same thing expressed in differ-
>ent terms; Doppler shifting is merely the result of different
>rates of elapsed proper time between an emitter and a
>receiver).

The last part, "Doppler shifting is merely...," bothered me.
I thought I had read something different.  In going back to
consult V.A. Ugarov, "Special Theory of Relativity," Mir, 1979,
I found on page 86--

  "...the Doppler effect is formed of two independent parts:
  (1) it is connected with the continuously changing distance
  between the observer and the source; (2) it is also connected
  with the transformation of time intervals between events on
  transition from one reference frame to another."

(He went on to note that the second effect can be detected when
there is no radial motion; he called it "the transverse Doppler
effect.")

I am willing to admit that my derivation of 8/26 was incorrect.
I won't apologize too profusely for it because I qualified it
by saying "...but it may be usable as a starting point for
discussion," which it indeed has turned out to be.

So much for background.  Let me now address your quote of me--

>On 9/11 you wrote:
>>
>>...
>>     Pr = Pe * exp(-theta)
>>...
>>
>>(I believe this relation, with theta = a * t' for constant a,
>>is the source of the logarithmic time dependence introduced
>>by Steve in his email of 8/20 to the Group.)

(I had been hoping Steve would respond to this before anyone
else would question it, so I wouldn't have to labor through the
rigorous math.)

As usual, if one thinks long and hard enough, one can come up
with a "simple" derivation.  So, here goes--

In the previous notation, the received power is Pr (constant for
constant acceleration, a).  If the sail/ship is receding with a
velocity parameter, theta (which is a * t', where t' is the
elapsed ship time from start), then the emitted power, Pe, must
be greater than the received power by the Doppler factor--
     Pe = Pr * exp(theta)   .

If there is no spillage, the total energy received, Er, must
equal the total energy emitted, Ee, or--
     Er = Ee = E   .

The differential reception of energy, dE, by the sail in differ-
ential sail time, dt', is Pr, or--
     dE/dt' = Pr   ,

and the differential emission of energy, dE, from the source in
differential Earth time, dt, is Pe, or--
     dE/dt = Pe = Pr * exp(theta)   .

Dividing the second differential relation by the first gives--
     dt'/dt = exp(theta)
            = exp(a * t')   .

Grouping terms, we get--
     dt = exp(-a * t') * dt'   .

Integrating from t = 0 at t' = 0 to t and t', we get--
     t = -(1/a) * [exp(-a * t') - 1]   ,
or
     a * t = 1 - exp(-a * t')   .

Solving for t' gives--
     t' = -[ln(1 - a * t)]/a   .                        Q.E.D.

So, we can get Steve's result solely from consideration of the
Doppler shift.

Regards, Rex

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References: <961001031323_321649014@emout17.mail.aol.com>
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: DotarSojat@aol.com
Cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, stevev@efn.org
Subject: Doppler effect
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 23:41:19 -0700

DotarSojat@aol.com writes:
 > In response to my 8/26 note, Steve wrote (also on 8/26)--
 > 
 > >...one can look at the relationship of received power to emitted
 > >power just as well in terms of Doppler shifting as by using the
 > >relationship between emitter time and receiver time (and in a
 > >fundamental sense, they are the same thing expressed in differ-
 > >ent terms; Doppler shifting is merely the result of different
 > >rates of elapsed proper time between an emitter and a
 > >receiver).
 > 
 > The last part, "Doppler shifting is merely...," bothered me.
 > I thought I had read something different.  In going back to
 > consult V.A. Ugarov, "Special Theory of Relativity," Mir, 1979,
 > I found on page 86--
 > 
 >   "...the Doppler effect is formed of two independent parts:
 >   (1) it is connected with the continuously changing distance
 >   between the observer and the source; (2) it is also connected
 >   with the transformation of time intervals between events on
 >   transition from one reference frame to another."
 > 
 > (He went on to note that the second effect can be detected when
 > there is no radial motion; he called it "the transverse Doppler
 > effect.")

In special relativity, if two observers do not move relative to each
other, then they also observe identical rates of passage of time.  In
essence the two "independent parts" referred to by Ugarov are actually
mutally dependent -- if two objects have continually changing distance
between them, then they are experiencing relative motion and they must
also have different rates of elapsed time.  Therefore transformations of
time intervals between them will result in discrepancies between when
each observes particular events to take place.

However, my statement is a bit of an oversimplification, as Doppler
shift actually results from the transformation of spacetime coordinates,
and not just from relative rates of elapsed time.  As a result Doppler
shifting is a somewhat more complex phenomenon when examined in more
detail; in the general case photons not only change wavelength but their
apparent directions of motion, and the amount of Doppler shift depends
on the angle between the direction of motion and the direction of
emission.

You may find it illuminating to derive the Doppler shift from the
Lorentz transformation.  I'll do the simple one-space-dimensional case
here.

The spacetime path of a light ray in a one-dimensional space can be
represented by a vector [ t x ] where t = x (where we measure t and x in
the same units; use c*t = x if you like conventional units).  If we
consider a photon with wavelength lambda', then one wavelength could be
represented by the vector [ lambda' lambda' ] in the moving object's
frame.

The Lorentz transformation, with only one space dimension considered,
can be represented by the matrix

[ gamma    v*gamma ]
[ v*gamma  gamma   ]

where v is the velocity, and gamma is 1/sqrt(1 - v^2); multiplying this
matrix with a vector on the right representing a quantity in the moving
frame (pardon my looseness with column vs. row vectors) produces the
transformed vector in the stationary frame.  Therefore, in the
stationary frame one wavelength of the photon is seen as:

[ gamma    v*gamma ] [ lambda' ]
[ v*gamma  gamma   ] [ lambda' ]

= lambda' * gamma * [ (1 + v)  (1 + v) ]

(the last part is a 2-element vector, both of whose components are the
quantity 1+v).

The question then is, what does the stationary observer see as the
photon's transformed wavelength lambda?  The answer is relatively
simple: The photon in the observer's frame has the wavelength lambda' *
gamma * (1 + v), simply by taking the x-component of the transformed
vector, which can be simplified like this:

lambda = lambda' * (1 + v) / sqrt(1 - v^2)
       = lambda' * sqrt(1 + v) * sqrt(1 + v) / (sqrt((1 + v)*(1 - v))
       = lambda' * sqrt(1 + v) * sqrt(1 + v) / (sqrt(1 + v) * sqrt(1 - v))
       = lambda' * sqrt((1 + v) / (1 - v))

Note that positive v corresponds to a receding object, so when v is
positive observed photons have longer wavelengths and hence lower
energies than they do relative to the moving object.

The derivation is even more interesting in two or three dimensions, as
it demonstrates not only the transverse Doppler shift, but an even more
interesting phenomenon dubbed the "headlight effect" -- the angle
between the direction of motion and the direction of emission of a
photon is observed to be different in the moving object's frame and the
stationary observer's frame.  You can derive this using a vector
representing one wavelength of the photon in the moving object's frame,
where the photon is emitted with an angle theta' to the moving object's
x-axis (I'll use only two space dimensions for simplicity):

lambda' * [ 1  cos(theta')  sin(theta') ]

and the Lorentz transformation matrix for motion v in the x direction:

[ gamma    v*gamma  0 ]
[ v*gamma  gamma    0 ]
[ 0        0        1 ]

Leaving the math as an exercise to the reader, the relationship between
theta' (the angle of emission in the moving frame) and theta (the
observed angle in the stationary frame) is:

cos(theta) = (v + cos(theta')) / (1 + v*cos(theta'))

The relationship between lambda' (the wavelength in the moving object's
frame) and lambda (the observed wavelength in the stationary frame) is:

lambda = lambda' * gamma * (1 + v*cos(theta'))

Note that if theta' = 0, then theta = 0 and the relationship between
lambda' and lambda is the same as in the one-dimensional case above.

It's a little more tricky to talk about the transverse Doppler effect,
as we have to consider the difference between the angle of emission in
the moving frame and the angle of reception in the observing frame.
Let's consider the case where cos(theta) = 0, which means that the angle
of reception is +/- pi/2 (the observed photon is seen as perpendicular
to the direction of motion in the stationary frame).  In that case,
cos(theta') = -v, so:

lambda = lambda' * gamma * (1 + v * -v)
       = lambda' * (1 - v^2) / sqrt(1 - v^2)
       = lambda' * sqrt(1 - v^2)
       = lambda' / gamma

On the other hand, when the angle of emission in the moving frame is
+/- pi/2 and cos(theta') = 0, then cos(theta) = v, and

lambda = lambda' * gamma

In this case light emitted perpendicular to the object _as seen by the
object_ is observed to come from an angle less than pi/2 relative to the
direction of motion of the object.  For v approaching 1, light emitted
from the entire front half of the object is concentrated in a small cone
with half-angle theta = acos(v) -- hence the "headlight effect".

This should demonstrate that although we're using different terms and
methods, we really are talking about the same thing, as the formulas for
Doppler shift are easily derived from the Lorentz transformation.

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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: DotarSojat@aol.com, stevev@efn.org
Subject: Re: Doppler effect
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 19:01:43 +0100

Hello Rex,

On 10/1, you wrote:

>>Steve's results are not related to the red-shift, they are based
>>on the signal travel time, which increases exponentially with
>>the trip-time.
>>
>>Am I right to say that during constant acceleration not only the
>>energy of the photons, but also the amount of photons decreases?
>>Steve's calculations pointed to the amount (density) of photons,
>>while yours seem to point only to their energy.
>
>I admit I wrote on 8/26--
>
>>The energy of each photon is Doppler-shifted downward...  The
>>arrival rate of the photons ... is also reduced by the Doppler
>>factor...

So we both say the same; The energy decrease is caused both by the red-shift
and the photon density decrease.

>>...one can look at the relationship of received power to emitted
>>power just as well in terms of Doppler shifting as by using the
>>relationship between emitter time and receiver time (and in a
>>fundamental sense, they are the same thing expressed in differ-
>>ent terms; Doppler shifting is merely the result of different
>>rates of elapsed proper time between an emitter and a
>>receiver).
>
>The last part, "Doppler shifting is merely...," bothered me.
>I thought I had read something different.  In going back to
>consult V.A. Ugarov, "Special Theory of Relativity," Mir, 1979,
>I found on page 86--
>
>  "...the Doppler effect is formed of two independent parts:
>  (1) it is connected with the continuously changing distance
>  between the observer and the source; (2) it is also connected
>  with the transformation of time intervals between events on
>  transition from one reference frame to another."
>
>(He went on to note that the second effect can be detected when
>there is no radial motion; he called it "the transverse Doppler
>effect.")

Yes, I heard of that name before.

>I am willing to admit that my derivation of 8/26 was incorrect.
>I won't apologize too profusely for it because I qualified it
>by saying "...but it may be usable as a starting point for
>discussion," which it indeed has turned out to be.

Oh, you don't need to apologize, I only wonder why at 8/26 you mentioned and
used both parts of the Doppler effect while at 9/11 (to SD) you used only
one of both parts.

Also I'm a bit confused now, about what the reduction of both parts of the
Doppler effect are. If I understand correctly they are both the same and
equal to:

 Pr = Pe * exp(-theta)   or     Pr = Pe * sqrt[(1 - beta)/(1 + beta)]

So why do you admit that your 8/26 derivation was incorrect? (Did you mix up
the date with the 9/11 letter?) I would think that the squaring of
exp(-theta) in the 8/26 letter was correct.

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


>Dividing the second differential relation by the first gives--
>     dt'/dt = exp(theta)
>            = exp(a * t')   .


I can see that theta=a*t' gives the same result as Steve's. But what I
really ment, was how you could prove that definition of theta=at'?

By now I found the "proof" I was looking for myself:

beta=Tanh[theta] -> v=Tanh[theta]

v=Tanh[at'] with respect to x=Cosh[at']/a and t=Sinh[at']/a

so v=Tanh[at']=Tanh[theta] -> theta=at'



A confused Timothy

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From: DotarSojat@aol.com
To: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
cc: stevev@efn.org
Subject: Re: Re: Doppler effect
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 02:20:33 -0400

Hello Timothy

On 10/6 you wrote

>...I only wonder why at 8/26 you mentioned and used both parts
>of the Doppler effect while at 9/11 (to SD) you used only one
>of both parts.

On 8/26 I erroneously squared the Doppler relation to cover two
effects, not realizing then that it already covered two effects
within the one relation.

All that is needed to cover both parts (per my 9/11 writeup) is
   Pr = Pe * sqrt[(1 - beta)/(1 + beta)]
      = Pe * exp(-theta)   .

I contend that, because we can derive Steve's result solely
from consideration of the Doppler shift, you shouldn't have to
worry about what property his analysis was based upon.  Beyond
saying the above, I don't know how to address your confusion.
(Incidentally, I don't recall ever seeing the exponential
relation for the Doppler shift before.)

I think your question about "theta = a * t' " would have been
quickly resolved if you had turned to my derivation of the
"velocity-parameter equation of motion" ("VPEM") on pp 12-13 of
your copy of my paper "An Engineering Review of Relativity for
Interstellar Flight."  I discussed the VPEM at some length in my
letter of 3/26 to you, and I cited this portion of my paper to
you in my letter of 4/21.  (I wouldn't have expected you to have
available a copy of the book "Spacetime Physics" by Taylor and
Wheeler, where you'd find the VPEM on p 97; the book was pub-
lished in 1966 and is probably long out of print.)

Regards, Rex

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	["2200" "Tue" "8" "October" "1996" "18:11:16" "-0400" "DotarSojat@aol.com" "DotarSojat@aol.com" "<961008181114_539148365@emout02.mail.aol.com>" "51" "(Re:)^3 Doppler effect" "^From:" nil nil "10" nil nil nil nil]
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From: DotarSojat@aol.com
To: stevev@efn.org
cc: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
Subject: (Re:)^3 Doppler effect
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 18:11:16 -0400

Hi Steve

I'm glad to hear that a second edition of "Spacetime Physics"
has been published; I'll try to find a copy.  All I have of the
1966 edition are Xerox copies of some pages that I found inter-
esting in 1989.

To quote selectively my Xeroxed page 97:
  "Exercise 51.  Clock paradox III
  ...
  "(b) How much velocity does the spaceship have after a given
  time? (question in italics)  This is the moment to object to
  the question and rephrase it.  Velocity [beta] (the original
  has the greek letter) is not the simple quantity to analyze.
  The simple quantity is the velocity parameter [theta].  It is
  simple because it is additive in this sense: Let the velocity
  parameter of the spaceship in Figure 76 with respect to the
  imaginary instantaneously comoving inertial frame change from
  0 to d[theta] in an astronaut time d[t'].  (Let me use t' in
  place of the authors' [tau]).  Then the velocity parameter
  of the spaceship with respect to the laboratory frame changes
  in the same astronaut time from the initial value [theta] to
  the subsequent value [theta] + d[theta].  Now relate d[theta]
  to the acceleration [g/c] in the instantaneously comoving
  inertial frame.  In this frame
     [g/c] * d[t'] = d[beta] = tanh(d[theta]) ~ d[theta]   "

(Note: I never felt comfortable with this sequence.)

  "so that
     d[theta] = [g/c] * d[t']                            (64)"

I call a variant of this last equation (with g replaced by F/m),
     F = m * c * d[theta]/dt'

the "velocity-parameter equation of motion."  That is not the
authors' term.  I believe that my derivation of the VPEM (my
term, abbreviated) on pp 12-13 of my paper is more straightfor-
ward because it doesn't need the questionable approximations
in the sequence above.

(This would be a place for a correction in the second edition.)

My paper "An Engineering Review of Relativity for Interstellar
Flight" is in 4 files in MSWORD6.0a for Windows.  If you have
WORD6.0a to open them in, I can attach the files, one at a time,
to email notes (I successfully did this to send a copy to
Timothy, although I backed it up with snail mail).  I don't know
what TeX, troff, or Postscript are.

Regards, Rex

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In-Reply-To: <961008181114_539148365@emout02.mail.aol.com>
References: <961008181114_539148365@emout02.mail.aol.com>
From: Steve VanDevender 
To: DotarSojat@aol.com
Cc: stevev@efn.org, T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl
Subject: (Re:)^3 Doppler effect
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 18:38:08 -0700

DotarSojat@aol.com writes:
 > To quote selectively my Xeroxed page 97:
 >   "Exercise 51.  Clock paradox III
 >   ...
 >   "(b) How much velocity does the spaceship have after a given
 >   time? (question in italics)  This is the moment to object to
 >   the question and rephrase it.  Velocity [beta] (the original
 >   has the greek letter) is not the simple quantity to analyze.
 >   The simple quantity is the velocity parameter [theta].  It is
 >   simple because it is additive in this sense: Let the velocity
 >   parameter of the spaceship in Figure 76 with respect to the
 >   imaginary instantaneously comoving inertial frame change from
 >   0 to d[theta] in an astronaut time d[t'].  (Let me use t' in
 >   place of the authors' [tau]).  Then the velocity parameter
 >   of the spaceship with respect to the laboratory frame changes
 >   in the same astronaut time from the initial value [theta] to
 >   the subsequent value [theta] + d[theta].  Now relate d[theta]
 >   to the acceleration [g/c] in the instantaneously comoving
 >   inertial frame.  In this frame
 >      [g/c] * d[t'] = d[beta] = tanh(d[theta]) ~ d[theta]   "
 > 
 > (Note: I never felt comfortable with this sequence.)
 > 
 >   "so that
 >      d[theta] = [g/c] * d[t']                            (64)"

Since for small values of d[theta] the quantity tanh(d[theta]) is very
close to d[theta], it's reasonable for small accelerations (1 g is about
3.27 * 10^-8 1/s (or (m/s^2)/c); for such a small value the difference
between tanh(x) and x truly is negligible).

 > I call a variant of this last equation (with g replaced by F/m),
 >      F = m * c * d[theta]/dt'
 > 
 > the "velocity-parameter equation of motion."  That is not the
 > authors' term.  I believe that my derivation of the VPEM (my
 > term, abbreviated) on pp 12-13 of my paper is more straightfor-
 > ward because it doesn't need the questionable approximations
 > in the sequence above.
 > 
 > (This would be a place for a correction in the second edition.)

I don't believe the second edition contains any form of this problem (I
assume it has to do with relativistic acceleration?).  All of the useful
information I've found on special relativistic treatment of acceleration
is in chapter 6 of _Gravitation_ by Misner, Thorne, and Wheeler.  They
do mention methods of analysis much like this, including use of the
quantities sinh(a * t'), cosh(a * t'), and tanh(a * t').  Most of the
rest of the book is well over my head and generally irrelevant to the
kinds of relativistic phenomena you'd experience in interstellar travel,
unless you intend to get near a black hole or neutron star, but the
treatment of special relativity in the first few chapters (particularly
3 and 6) has been an invaluable reference to me.

 > My paper "An Engineering Review of Relativity for Interstellar
 > Flight" is in 4 files in MSWORD6.0a for Windows.  If you have
 > WORD6.0a to open them in, I can attach the files, one at a time,
 > to email notes (I successfully did this to send a copy to
 > Timothy, although I backed it up with snail mail).  I don't know
 > what TeX, troff, or Postscript are.

Sigh.  I don't have MS Word 6.0; my home computer runs Linux.  Perhaps
you could induce MS Word 6.0 to print your paper as Postscript, so you
could send the Postscript to me?  I would think given all the other
features of MS Word this should be possible.  I do have a good
Postscript viewer for Linux.  As long as the printed version is less
than 5 megabytes in size I will have no problem receiving it.

 > Regards, Rex

From popserver Wed Oct  9 15:45:59 GMT 1996
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	["2047" "Wed" "9" "October" "1996" "17:42:13" "+0100" "Timothy van der Linden" "T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl" nil "43" "Re: (Re:)^3 Doppler effect" "^From:" nil nil "10" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl (Timothy van der Linden)
To: stevev@efn.org, DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: Re: (Re:)^3 Doppler effect
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 17:42:13 +0100

Hi Steve, Rex

Here some information that may solve problems/answer questions:

Steve wrote:

>Sigh.  I don't have MS Word 6.0; my home computer runs Linux.  Perhaps
>you could induce MS Word 6.0 to print your paper as Postscript, so you
>could send the Postscript to me?  I would think given all the other
>features of MS Word this should be possible.  I do have a good
>Postscript viewer for Linux.  As long as the printed version is less
>than 5 megabytes in size I will have no problem receiving it.

To Steve:
There is a Word 6.0 viewer/print program freely available on the web, it
runs only under Windows 3.11&95 though. The web-address should be:

http://www.microsoft.com/msword/Internet/Viewer/default.htm


To Rex:

I tested this a few minutes ago. It is indeed possible to print in
PostScript format. You have to follow a few steps. First try and find your
Windows installation diskettes. Then start Windows and go to the menu Main
and click Configuration. There one of the icons tells Printers, click on
that and the printer menu opens. Select Append>> there you will find a long
list of possible printers, somewhere in that list you can find "PostScript
Printer". Once you found it click Install and you will be asked for a
installation diskette.
OK, almost done, if everything is right, you should have installed the
Postscript printer.
All you have to do now is to print the document via Word. In Word press the
PRINT button and the Print Menu will pop up (I assume), there you can select
the printer you want, instead of your normal laserprinter, select PostScript
printer. OK the final important thing is that you of course don't want to
print to your non-existing postscript printer, but to a file, therefore you
should find inside the "print setup"-menu the button Options. Instead of
print-to-printer, select print-to-encapsulated-postscript-file, do not enter
a file name! OK go back to the main print-menu and press print-document, you
will be asked for a filename to print to. Well well, Windows makes it easy ;) 

Timothy

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From: "L. Clayton Parker" 
To: ,
        "Timothy van der Linden" ,
        "Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39" ,
        "Zenon Kulpa" ,
        "Steve VanDevender" 
Subject: Fw: SSRT: DC-X commemoration in LA (fwd)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:50:48 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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----------
> From: Chris W. Johnson 
> To: Single Stage Rocket Technology News 
> Subject: SSRT: DC-X commemoration in LA (fwd)
> Date: Wednesday, October 16, 1996 3:35 PM
> 
> ----
> 
> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:34:11 -0700 (MST)
> From: Donald Doughty 
> To: DC-X 
> Subject: DC-X commemoration in LA (fwd)
> Reply-To: delta-clipper@europe.std.com
> 
> 
> Subject: DC-X commemoration in LA
> 
> For Immediate Release:
> 
>           Hollywood Celebration of Delta Clipper Experimental
>                 Accomplishments Slated for October 18
> 
> Hollywood, California - October 15: The Space Frontier Foundation, a
> national space policy and media organization, announced today plans for a
> commemorative celebration of the pioneering achievements of the DC-X
Single
> Stage to Orbit prototype, which demonstrated the feasibility of Reusable
> Launch Vehicles during its 1993-96 flight campaigns. Charles "Pete"
Conrad,
> Jr., Gemini - Apollo - Skylab astronaut and DC-X flight controller, heads
> the list
> of supporters of DC-X and SSTO who plan to attend the October 18 event,
> to be held at the Roosevelt Hotel in Hollywood, California, starting at 9
pm.
>      The list of planned participants at the DC-X Celebration includes:
Gene
> Austin (NASA's X-33 RLV Program Manager), Major Dale Shell (Phillips
Lab),
> Jeff Baxter (guitarist for the Doobie Brothers and Steely Dan), Dr.
Maxwell
> Hunter, Dr. Jerry Pournelle, and Henry Vanderbilt, Executive Director of
the
> Space Access Society.  The event will be hosted by James Muncy,
Legislative
> Assistant for Congressman Dana Rohrabacher. The Foundation will provide a
> Cash Bar and display rare flight videos of the DC-X.
>      The Foundation asks that guests at the DC-X Celebration provide a
> minimum donation of $10 towards the Foundation's Cheap Access to Space
project.
>      The DC-X, built by McDonnell-Douglas Corporation in Huntington
Beach,
> forged the path for a succession of future experimental and operational
> spaceplanes that will provide the Cheap Access to Space necessary to open
> the space frontier.
>      The Space Frontier Foundation, which coined the term "Cheap Access
To
> Space", is a not-for-profit space policy and media organization that has
> been fighting for years to change how America looks at and operates in
> space.  Working for the last 7 years behind the scenes in Washington, and
> with the national media and entertainment communities, it is transforming
> our national space agenda into an exciting and inclusive enterprise with
the
> goal of the beginning the irreversible human settlement of the space
frontier.
>     For more information on this event, visit the Foundation's site on
the
> World Wide Web at: http://www.space-frontier.org, send e-mail to:
> Davida5625@aol.com, or call (800) 78-SPACE.
> 
>                           - 30 -
> 
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----------
> =
From: Chris W. Johnson <chrisj@mail.utexas.edu>
> To: Single Stage Rocket Technology News =
<ssrt-news@zimbazi.cc.utexas.edu>
> Subject: SSRT: DC-X commemoration in LA =
(fwd)
> Date: Wednesday, October 16, 1996 3:35 PM
> 
> =
----
> 
> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:34:11 -0700 =
(MST)
> From: Donald Doughty <doughtd@pr.erau.edu>
> To: DC-X <delta-clipper@world.std.com>
> Subject: DC-X commemoration in LA =
(fwd)
> Reply-To: delta-clipper@europe.std.com
> 
> 
> Subject: DC-X commemoration =
in LA
> 
> For Immediate Release:
> 
> =
          Hollywood =
Celebration of Delta Clipper Experimental
> =
            &=
nbsp;   Accomplishments Slated for October 18
> =

> Hollywood, California - October 15: The Space Frontier =
Foundation, a
> national space policy and media organization, =
announced today plans for a
> commemorative celebration of the =
pioneering achievements of the DC-X Single
> Stage to Orbit =
prototype, which demonstrated the feasibility of Reusable
> Launch =
Vehicles during its 1993-96 flight campaigns. Charles "Pete" =
Conrad,
> Jr., Gemini - Apollo - Skylab astronaut and DC-X flight =
controller, heads
> the list
> of supporters of DC-X and =
SSTO who plan to attend the October 18 event,
> to be held at the =
Roosevelt Hotel in Hollywood, California, starting at 9 pm.
> =
     The list of planned participants at the =
DC-X Celebration includes: Gene
> Austin (NASA's X-33 RLV Program =
Manager), Major Dale Shell (Phillips Lab),
> Jeff Baxter =
(guitarist for the Doobie Brothers and Steely Dan), Dr. Maxwell
> =
Hunter, Dr. Jerry Pournelle, and Henry Vanderbilt, Executive Director of =
the
> Space Access Society.  The event will be hosted by =
James Muncy, Legislative
> Assistant for Congressman Dana =
Rohrabacher. The Foundation will provide a
> Cash Bar and display =
rare flight videos of the DC-X.
> =
     The Foundation asks that guests at the =
DC-X Celebration provide a
> minimum donation of $10 towards the =
Foundation's Cheap Access to Space project.
> =
     The DC-X, built by McDonnell-Douglas =
Corporation in Huntington Beach,
> forged the path for a =
succession of future experimental and operational
> spaceplanes =
that will provide the Cheap Access to Space necessary to open
> =
the space frontier.
>      The Space =
Frontier Foundation, which coined the term "Cheap Access To
> =
Space", is a not-for-profit space policy and media organization =
that has
> been fighting for years to change how America looks at =
and operates in
> space.  Working for the last 7 years behind =
the scenes in Washington, and
> with the national media and =
entertainment communities, it is transforming
> our national space =
agenda into an exciting and inclusive enterprise with the
> goal =
of the beginning the irreversible human settlement of the space =
frontier.
>     For more information on this =
event, visit the Foundation's site on the
> World Wide Web at: =
http://www.space-frontier.org, send e-mail to:
> Davida5625@aol.com, or =
call (800) 78-SPACE.
> 
> =
            &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp; - 30 -
> 


------=_NextPart_000_01BBBC6C.E0279180--

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From: "L. Clayton Parker" 
To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        "Philip Bakelaar" ,
        "Steve VanDevender" ,
        "Zenon Kulpa" ,
        "Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39" ,
        "Timothy van der Linden" ,
        
Subject: Re: starship-design: Stellar drive?
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:09:29 -0500

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[description of reactionless drive deleted]

Much as I would like to see this idea work (I wrote a rather silly
dissertation on the idea when I was MUCH younger), I must throw a little
cold water on it.

You see, it is really irrelevant whether or not it will work, or violate
any laws of physics. In the early days of Apollo, NASA experimented with
magnetic fields extensively hoping to come up with a "meteorite screen".
They did have some small successes but there was this one small, tiny
flaw...

Magnetic fields due indeed have frequency just like other forms of EM
radiation. Fields such as we are discussing here of sufficient power to
have any effect were invariably fatal to organic life forms contained or
caught within them, and since we can't shield ourselves from the field
itself...

Now that I have said that, if anyone finds a method of shielding a magnetic
field, it might be usable. Even better, shielding is but the first step to
FOCUSING which will boost the efficiency and power output enormously.

L. Parker
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[description of reactionless =
drive deleted]

Much as I would like to see this idea work (I =
wrote a rather silly dissertation on the idea when I was MUCH younger), =
I must throw a little cold water on it.

You see, it is really =
irrelevant whether or not it will work, or violate any laws of physics. =
In the early days of Apollo, NASA experimented with magnetic fields =
extensively hoping to come up with a "meteorite screen". They =
did have some small successes but there was this one small, tiny =
flaw...

Magnetic fields due indeed have frequency just like other =
forms of EM radiation. Fields such as we are discussing here of =
sufficient power to have any effect were invariably fatal to organic =
life forms contained or caught within them, and since we can't shield =
ourselves from the field itself...

Now that I have said that, if =
anyone finds a method of shielding a magnetic field, it might be usable. =
Even better, shielding is but the first step to FOCUSING which will =
boost the efficiency and power output enormously.

L. Parker


------=_NextPart_000_01BBBC6F.7C805EC0--

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To: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        "Philip Bakelaar" ,
        "Steve VanDevender" ,
        "Zenon Kulpa" ,
        "Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39" ,
        "Timothy van der Linden" ,
        
Subject: Fw: SSRT: Space Access Update no. 70
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 10:38:39 -0500

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----------
> From: Chris W. Johnson 
> To: Single Stage Rocket Technology News 
> Subject: SSRT: Space Access Update no. 70
> Date: Friday, October 18, 1996 5:43 PM
> 
> 
> ----
> 
> From: hvanderbilt@BIX.com (hvanderbilt on BIX)
> Newsgroups: sci.space.policy
> Subject: Space Access Update #70  10/18/96
> Date: 18 Oct 96 18:29:03 GMT
> Organization: Delphi Internet Services Corporation
> Lines: 274
> Message-ID: 
> NNTP-Posting-Host: bix.com
> 
> 
>                      Space Access Update #70  10/18/96
>                  Copyright 1996 by Space Access Society
> _______________________________________________________________________
> 
> Rumors of our demise have been greatly exaggerated.
> 
> Yes, it's been eleven weeks since the last Update, and yes, the SAS web
> page is still a sporadically maintained construction site, and yes,
> we're way behind on answering our mail.  And no, there's been no dearth
> of news these last couple of months - quite the opposite in fact.
> 
> But we've been trying a radical experiment in new operational styles
> here at SAS world HQ.
> 
> We've been thinking.
> 
> Which for us is a rather drawn-out process, because your humble servant
> the Update editor does not in fact make all this stuff up himself.
> 
> Major SAS policies are generally a matter of consensus among members of
> our widely-scattered semi-formal mostly-anonymous SAS Advisory Board.
> (You would not believe the long-distance bills.)  And reaching consensus
> among a bunch of prima donnas like us can take a lot of thrashing even
> when we _haven't_ just seen our old main rocket fall over and catch
> fire, and our new main rocket get downselected in a manner that left a
> lot of us muttering to ourselves "that's not what we meant, dammit!"
> 
> And now we once again think we know what's going on, and we're once
> again ready to opine on what should be done about it.  Though given the
> backlog that's built up, we're going to have to be a bit more terse than
> usual this issue.  Read on...
> _______________________________________________________________________
> 
> 
>                                   X-33
> 
> If you haven't guessed, we're not wildly happy with the way the X-33
> competition came out.  In brief, no, it's not a matter of religious
> fervor for one vehicle configuration over another.  We at SAS have
> consistantly favored whatever configuration lends itself to reliable
> fast turnaround ops with minimum ground crew out of austere sites - IE
> max potential for radical cost reduction at high flight rates.  We don't
> care if what does this job is a vertical-lander, a horizontal-lander, or
> a Cavourite-fuelled Winnebago, as long as it works.
> 
> Our problem with this spring's X-33 downselect is twofold: NASA is
> showing a distressing tendency to address NASA internal agendas rather
> than the national interest, and Lockheed-Martin is showing a distressing
> tendency to try to turn this into a monopoly on the current (rather
> limited) US space launch market, rather than treating it as a chance to
> be the Boeing of a vastly expanded 21st century spaceliner market.
> Shortsighted in both cases, to say the least.
> 
> The details could fill a book (they have, see the next item) and we're
> in a hurry, so for now we'll just say that X-33 can still be a very good
> thing for the country, given two things: Continuing competition, and
> rigorous budget/schedule oversight.  We have already begun working for
> both.  SAS's X-33 policy is one of "constructive engagement".
> 
> (A correction to a previous Update: We wrote that Lockheed-Martin's X-33
> bid called for spending $2 billion in corporate cash on the hypothetical
> "commercial RLV" (Reusable Launch Vehicle) followon to X-33.  We heard a
> rumor, we thought we'd found backup for it, we were wrong.  L-M plans to
> put about $220 million into X-33 (about a sixth of the total cost) and
> about the same again into developing a "commercial" followon (about 5%
> of the estimated cost of developing and building three ships.))
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________
> 
> 
>                "Halfway To Anywhere" Hits The Bookstores.
> 
> G.Harry Stine has written the best single account of the cheap space
> access movement we've seen so far.  It's called "Halfway To Anywhere -
> The Age Of Commercial Space", it's from M.Evans & Company, ISBN 0 87131
> 805 9, hardback, $21.95, and it should be in bookstores now - if yours
> doesn't have it, ask them to order it for you.  Harry's added a chapter
> on the X-33 downselect since we saw the galley proofs last spring, and
> we understand it's incendiary.  Highly recommended.
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________
> 
> 
>                            DC-X Hits the Dirt
> 
> Y'all likely know by now that DC-XA had a landing gear problem on its
> fourth flight (at the end of July, 12th flight for the DC-X overall),
> fell over post-landing, caught fire when the liquid oxygen tank split
> open, and was essentially destroyed.
> 
> Another correction of a previous Update: DC-X's landing gear was
> pneumatically operated, not as we reported hydraulic.  And the "repeated
> partial gear extensions" we thought we'd spotted on the tapes of the
> last flight were in fact a spring-hinged pad-umbilical hatch cover
> flapping in the breeze.  Oh well.  (You can check the tapes yourself
> now, see the next item.)
> 
> It turns out the reason one gear leg didn't extend was that a pneumatic
> hose was disconnected during servicing then not reconnected.  Nothing
> fancy, just a mechanic's error in a single-string no-backup system.
> Given how long the ground crew had been working ridiculous hours in
> desert heat on God's own reflector-oven of a lakebed, eight hundred
> miles from their homes and families, on a project with the axe poised
> over it, and we hear with major hiatuses in paychecks, we hereby offer
> to punch the lights out of anyone who faults them for this.
> 
> X-vehicles inherently have a lot of single-string, no-backup subsystems.
> It's a tradeoff; build it cheap, dirty, and quick and try to collect the
> data you need before it breaks.  Then you put multiple-backup landing
> gear actuator systems into the operational vehicle that comes after.
> 
> The main lesson to be learned here is already known: Build two copies of
> your X-vehicle, since you almost certainly will break at least one -
> probably in a manner that in 20-20 hindsight seems pretty dumb.  EG, the
> X-31 lost to air-data-sensor icing.  Beyond that, we'd guess that not
> jerking your field test crew around for months on end with funding
> interruptions and threatened program terminations is also a good idea.
> 
> NASA's Brand Commission is due to come out with its formal accident
> report sometime before the end of this month.  If they say "build two
> copies, don't burn out the ground crew, don't use marginally-welded
> testing-damaged aluminum-lithium propellant tanks", we agree.  If they
> recommend microscopically comprehensive written procedures and lab-
> coated clipboard-bearing hordes of overseers to enforce compliance, we
> will likely have one or two negative things to say about that opinion.
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________
> 
> 
>                 Revised Video Has All Twelve DC-X Flights
> 
> Late but better than never department: We now have a revised 3.1 version
> of our DC-X/SSTO 3.0 tape, with about twenty minutes of footage of all
> four DC-XA flights copied onto the end, including two views of DC-XA's
> final flight and post-landing fire.  Two hours total, includes
> animations of all three X-33 bids and considerable SSTO background
> material including aerospike engine test-stand footage.  US standard VHS
> NTSC only.  Same price as the 3.0 tape, $25 US, $20 for SAS members.
> $5 off if you've already bought the 3.0 tape - there's a lot of overlap.
> Add $8 for postage outside North America.  Mail a check to SAS, 4855 E
> Warner Rd #24-150, Phoenix AZ 85044.
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________
> 
> 
>                        Space Access '97 Conference
> 
> And earlier than ever before, we have a hotel signed up for next year's
> "Space Access '97" conference.  It'll be the last weekend in April,
> evening of Friday the 25th through evening of Sunday the 27th, at the
> same hotel as last year, the Safari Resort in downtown Scottsdale,
> Arizona, fifteen minutes from the Phoenix airport.  Room rates are $63 a
> night, up a whole dollar from last year, call 1-800-845-4356 for
> reservations and mention "Space Access" for the rate.
> 
> This will be the fifth time we've done our annual conference on the
> technology, economics, and politics of radically cheaper space access.
> Ask anyone who's been to one already: everybody who's anybody is there,
> talking informally about the absolute latest developments in cheap
> access.  Hear more new ideas in an hour than you'll catch all weekend
> anywhere else.
> 
> SA'97 registration is $80 through December 31st, $100 through mid-April,
> $120 at the door, $10 off for SAS members.  $50 student rate.  We're
> holding the line at last year's prices; these things are not cheap to
> put on - but they're worth it!  Mail us a check now and save.
> 
> _______________________________________________________________________
> 
> 
>                            Miscellaneous News
> 
> $25m in FY'96 DOD reusable rocket finally cleared OSD (Office of the
> Secretary of Defence, where the financial comptroller seems to think he
> has a policy-making role) and got to where it's needed.  Just as well,
> as FY'97 money was reduced to $10m in the last-second scramble to make
> an election year budget.  Largely, we gather, due to the lack of a high-
> profile reusable rocket program in DOD, post DC-X.  Stay tuned for more
> on this subject - FY'97 has barely begun.
> 
> NASA's FY'97 RLV budget, meanwhile, passed essentially unchanged.  Good
> news, in that theoretically this allows the X-33 project to get off to a
> running start.  Now if only the Lockheed-Martin public affairs types
> would figure out that this is NOT a black project, that times have
> changed and they're supposed to spread info, not hide it.  We might then
> have some idea what we're getting for this year's couple of hundred
> million of our money.
> 
> Meanwhile, in the commercial world...
> 
> Kistler Aerospace's engine contractor has taken delivery of the first
> three shipsets of Russian NK-33 engines for Kistler's planned commercial
> reusable medium-lift two-stage-to-orbit cargo ship.
> 
> Kelly Space & Technology has taken delivery of two surplus F-106's (a
> fifties-vintage delta winged long range interceptor with a 15' by 3'
> internal missile bay) they plan to use for proof-of-concept demos of
> their proposed "Eclipse" winged air-launched (towed by a 747) reusable
> medium-lift cargo ship.  Motorola announced they're buying options on
> ten Eclipse satellite launches for 1999-2000, valued at $8.9 million.
> This can't hurt in Kelly obtaining development financing.  No word on
> how much Motorola has paid for the options.
> 
> The Boeing-Zenit Sea Launch project (Boeing will fly Ukranian SL-16
> Zenit boosters off a mobile ocean platform) is moving forward briskly,
> as are McDonnell-Douglas's Delta 3 and Lockheed-Martin's Atlas 2AR.  All
> of these are essentially commercially financed expendable booster
> projects, intended to compete for commercial launches.  Not yet cheap
> access, but the fact that commercial funding is available for well over
> a billion dollars of new launch projects is extremely encouraging.
> Between these (and several new/surplus-military small boosters coming
> soon) and the various medium-launch reusable companies starting to get
> financing, we see the beginnings of a major commercial space expansion
> that will be financing, building, and flying low-cost commercial
> reusable ships a whole lot sooner than most people expect.
> 
> We like it.
> 
> 
> -----------------------(SAS Policy Boilerplate)------------------------
> 
> Space Access Update is Space Access Society's when-there's-news
> publication. Space Access Society's goal is to promote affordable access
> to space for all, period.  We believe in concentrating our resources at
> whatever point looks like yielding maximum progress toward this goal.
> 
> Right now, we think this means working our tails off trying to get the
> government to build and fly high-speed reusable rocket demonstrators,
> "X-rockets", in the next three years, in order to quickly build up both
> experience with and confidence in reusable Single-Stage To Orbit (SSTO)
> technology.  The idea is to reduce SSTO technical uncertainty (and thus
> development risk and cost) while at the same time increasing investor
> confidence, to the point where SSTO will make sense as a private
> commercial investment.  We have reason to believe we're getting close.
> 
> With luck and hard work, we should see fully-reusable rocket testbeds
> flying into space well before the end of this decade, with practical
> radically cheaper orbital transports following right after.
> 
> Space Access Society won't accept donations from government launch
> contractors - it would limit our freedom to do what's needed.  We
> survive on member dues and contributions, plus what we make selling
> tapes and running our annual conference.
> 
> Join us, and help us make it happen.
> 
>             Henry Vanderbilt, Executive Director, Space Access Society
> 
> 
> To join Space Access Society or buy the SSTO/DC-X V 3.1 video we have
> for sale (Two hours, includes all twelve DC-X/XA flights, X-33
> animations, X-33, DC-X and SSTO backgrounders, aerospike engine test-
> stand footage, plus White Sands Missile Range DC-X ops site footage)
> mail a check to:  SAS, 4855 E Warner Rd #24-150, Phoenix AZ 85044.  SAS
> membership with direct email of Space Access Updates is $30 US per year;
> the SSTO V 3.0 video is $25, $5 off for SAS members, $5 off for previous
> version 3.0 purchasers, $8 extra for shipping outside North America, US
> standard VHS NTSC only.  SA'97 conference registration (April 25-27
> 1997, at the Safari Resort in Scottsdale Arizona) is $80 through
> December 31st, $10 off for SAS members.  $50 SA'97 student rate.
>
__________________________________________________________________________
> 
>  Space Access Society      "Reach low orbit and you're halfway to
anywhere
>  4855 E Warner Rd #24-150               in the Solar System."
>  Phoenix AZ 85044                               - Robert A. Heinlein
>  602 431-9283 voice/fax
>  www.space-access.org                     "You can't get there from
here."
>  space.access@space-access.org                          - Anonymous
> 
>  - Permission granted to redistribute the full and unaltered text of this
-
>  - piece, including the copyright and this notice.  All other rights     
-
>  - reserved.  In other words, crossposting, emailing, or printing this   
-
>  - whole and passing it on to interested parties is strongly encouraged. 
-
> 
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----------
> =
From: Chris W. Johnson <chrisj@mail.utexas.edu>
> To: Single Stage Rocket Technology News =
<ssrt-news@zimbazi.cc.utexas.edu>
> Subject: SSRT: Space Access Update no. =
70
> Date: Friday, October 18, 1996 5:43 PM
> 
> =

> ----
> 
> From: hvanderbilt@BIX.com =
(hvanderbilt on BIX)
> Newsgroups: sci.space.policy
> =
Subject: Space Access Update #70  10/18/96
> Date: 18 Oct 96 =
18:29:03 GMT
> Organization: Delphi Internet Services =
Corporation
> Lines: 274
> Message-ID: <hvanderbilt.845663343@BIX.com>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: bix.com
> =

> 
> =
            &=
nbsp;        Space Access Update =
#70  10/18/96
> =
            &=
nbsp;    Copyright 1996 by Space Access =
Society
> =
_______________________________________________________________________> 
> Rumors of our demise have been greatly =
exaggerated.
> 
> Yes, it's been eleven weeks since the last =
Update, and yes, the SAS web
> page is still a sporadically =
maintained construction site, and yes,
> we're way behind on =
answering our mail.  And no, there's been no dearth
> of news =
these last couple of months - quite the opposite in fact.
> =

> But we've been trying a radical experiment in new operational =
styles
> here at SAS world HQ.
> 
> We've been =
thinking.
> 
> Which for us is a rather drawn-out process, =
because your humble servant
> the Update editor does not in fact =
make all this stuff up himself.
> 
> Major SAS policies are =
generally a matter of consensus among members of
> our =
widely-scattered semi-formal mostly-anonymous SAS Advisory =
Board.
> (You would not believe the long-distance bills.) =
 And reaching consensus
> among a bunch of prima donnas like =
us can take a lot of thrashing even
> when we _haven't_ just seen =
our old main rocket fall over and catch
> fire, and our new main =
rocket get downselected in a manner that left a
> lot of us =
muttering to ourselves "that's not what we meant, =
dammit!"
> 
> And now we once again think we know =
what's going on, and we're once
> again ready to opine on what =
should be done about it.  Though given the
> backlog that's =
built up, we're going to have to be a bit more terse than
> usual =
this issue.  Read on...
> =
_______________________________________________________________________> 
> 
> =
            &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;         X-33
> =

> If you haven't guessed, we're not wildly happy with the way the =
X-33
> competition came out.  In brief, no, it's not a matter =
of religious
> fervor for one vehicle configuration over another. =
 We at SAS have
> consistantly favored whatever configuration =
lends itself to reliable
> fast turnaround ops with minimum ground =
crew out of austere sites - IE
> max potential for radical cost =
reduction at high flight rates.  We don't
> care if what does =
this job is a vertical-lander, a horizontal-lander, or
> a =
Cavourite-fuelled Winnebago, as long as it works.
> 
> Our =
problem with this spring's X-33 downselect is twofold: NASA is
> =
showing a distressing tendency to address NASA internal agendas =
rather
> than the national interest, and Lockheed-Martin is =
showing a distressing
> tendency to try to turn this into a =
monopoly on the current (rather
> limited) US space launch market, =
rather than treating it as a chance to
> be the Boeing of a vastly =
expanded 21st century spaceliner market.
> Shortsighted in both =
cases, to say the least.
> 
> The details could fill a book =
(they have, see the next item) and we're
> in a hurry, so for now =
we'll just say that X-33 can still be a very good
> thing for the =
country, given two things: Continuing competition, and
> rigorous =
budget/schedule oversight.  We have already begun working =
for
> both.  SAS's X-33 policy is one of "constructive =
engagement".
> 
> (A correction to a previous Update: =
We wrote that Lockheed-Martin's X-33
> bid called for spending $2 =
billion in corporate cash on the hypothetical
> "commercial =
RLV" (Reusable Launch Vehicle) followon to X-33.  We heard =
a
> rumor, we thought we'd found backup for it, we were wrong. =
 L-M plans to
> put about $220 million into X-33 (about a =
sixth of the total cost) and
> about the same again into =
developing a "commercial" followon (about 5%
> of the =
estimated cost of developing and building three ships.))
> =

> =
_______________________________________________________________________> 
> 
> =
            &=
nbsp;  "Halfway To Anywhere" Hits The =
Bookstores.
> 
> G.Harry Stine has written the best single =
account of the cheap space
> access movement we've seen so far. =
 It's called "Halfway To Anywhere -
> The Age Of =
Commercial Space", it's from M.Evans & Company, ISBN 0 =
87131
> 805 9, hardback, $21.95, and it should be in bookstores =
now - if yours
> doesn't have it, ask them to order it for you. =
 Harry's added a chapter
> on the X-33 downselect since we =
saw the galley proofs last spring, and
> we understand it's =
incendiary.  Highly recommended.
> 
> =
_______________________________________________________________________> 
> 
> =
            &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;  DC-X Hits the Dirt
> 
> Y'all likely know by =
now that DC-XA had a landing gear problem on its
> fourth flight =
(at the end of July, 12th flight for the DC-X overall),
> fell =
over post-landing, caught fire when the liquid oxygen tank split
> =
open, and was essentially destroyed.
> 
> Another correction =
of a previous Update: DC-X's landing gear was
> pneumatically =
operated, not as we reported hydraulic.  And the =
"repeated
> partial gear extensions" we thought we'd =
spotted on the tapes of the
> last flight were in fact a =
spring-hinged pad-umbilical hatch cover
> flapping in the breeze. =
 Oh well.  (You can check the tapes yourself
> now, see =
the next item.)
> 
> It turns out the reason one gear leg =
didn't extend was that a pneumatic
> hose was disconnected during =
servicing then not reconnected.  Nothing
> fancy, just a =
mechanic's error in a single-string no-backup system.
> Given how =
long the ground crew had been working ridiculous hours in
> desert =
heat on God's own reflector-oven of a lakebed, eight hundred
> =
miles from their homes and families, on a project with the axe =
poised
> over it, and we hear with major hiatuses in paychecks, we =
hereby offer
> to punch the lights out of anyone who faults them =
for this.
> 
> X-vehicles inherently have a lot of =
single-string, no-backup subsystems.
> It's a tradeoff; build it =
cheap, dirty, and quick and try to collect the
> data you need =
before it breaks.  Then you put multiple-backup landing
> =
gear actuator systems into the operational vehicle that comes =
after.
> 
> The main lesson to be learned here is already =
known: Build two copies of
> your X-vehicle, since you almost =
certainly will break at least one -
> probably in a manner that in =
20-20 hindsight seems pretty dumb.  EG, the
> X-31 lost to =
air-data-sensor icing.  Beyond that, we'd guess that not
> =
jerking your field test crew around for months on end with =
funding
> interruptions and threatened program terminations is =
also a good idea.
> 
> NASA's Brand Commission is due to =
come out with its formal accident
> report sometime before the end =
of this month.  If they say "build two
> copies, don't =
burn out the ground crew, don't use marginally-welded
> =
testing-damaged aluminum-lithium propellant tanks", we agree. =
 If they
> recommend microscopically comprehensive written =
procedures and lab-
> coated clipboard-bearing hordes of overseers =
to enforce compliance, we
> will likely have one or two negative =
things to say about that opinion.
> 
> =
_______________________________________________________________________> 
> 
> =
            &=
nbsp;   Revised Video Has All Twelve DC-X Flights
> =

> Late but better than never department: We now have a revised =
3.1 version
> of our DC-X/SSTO 3.0 tape, with about twenty minutes =
of footage of all
> four DC-XA flights copied onto the end, =
including two views of DC-XA's
> final flight and post-landing =
fire.  Two hours total, includes
> animations of all three =
X-33 bids and considerable SSTO background
> material including =
aerospike engine test-stand footage.  US standard VHS
> NTSC =
only.  Same price as the 3.0 tape, $25 US, $20 for SAS =
members.
> $5 off if you've already bought the 3.0 tape - there's =
a lot of overlap.
> Add $8 for postage outside North America. =
 Mail a check to SAS, 4855 E
> Warner Rd #24-150, Phoenix AZ =
85044.
> 
> =
_______________________________________________________________________> 
> 
> =
            &=
nbsp;          Space =
Access '97 Conference
> 
> And earlier than ever before, we =
have a hotel signed up for next year's
> "Space Access =
'97" conference.  It'll be the last weekend in April,
> =
evening of Friday the 25th through evening of Sunday the 27th, at =
the
> same hotel as last year, the Safari Resort in downtown =
Scottsdale,
> Arizona, fifteen minutes from the Phoenix airport. =
 Room rates are $63 a
> night, up a whole dollar from last =
year, call 1-800-845-4356 for
> reservations and mention =
"Space Access" for the rate.
> 
> This will be the =
fifth time we've done our annual conference on the
> technology, =
economics, and politics of radically cheaper space access.
> Ask =
anyone who's been to one already: everybody who's anybody is =
there,
> talking informally about the absolute latest developments =
in cheap
> access.  Hear more new ideas in an hour than =
you'll catch all weekend
> anywhere else.
> 
> SA'97 =
registration is $80 through December 31st, $100 through =
mid-April,
> $120 at the door, $10 off for SAS members.  $50 =
student rate.  We're
> holding the line at last year's =
prices; these things are not cheap to
> put on - but they're worth =
it!  Mail us a check now and save.
> 
> =
_______________________________________________________________________> 
> 
> =
            &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;  Miscellaneous News
> 
> $25m in FY'96 DOD =
reusable rocket finally cleared OSD (Office of the
> Secretary of =
Defence, where the financial comptroller seems to think he
> has a =
policy-making role) and got to where it's needed.  Just as =
well,
> as FY'97 money was reduced to $10m in the last-second =
scramble to make
> an election year budget.  Largely, we =
gather, due to the lack of a high-
> profile reusable rocket =
program in DOD, post DC-X.  Stay tuned for more
> on this =
subject - FY'97 has barely begun.
> 
> NASA's FY'97 RLV =
budget, meanwhile, passed essentially unchanged.  Good
> =
news, in that theoretically this allows the X-33 project to get off to =
a
> running start.  Now if only the Lockheed-Martin public =
affairs types
> would figure out that this is NOT a black project, =
that times have
> changed and they're supposed to spread info, not =
hide it.  We might then
> have some idea what we're getting =
for this year's couple of hundred
> million of our money.
> =

> Meanwhile, in the commercial world...
> 
> Kistler =
Aerospace's engine contractor has taken delivery of the first
> =
three shipsets of Russian NK-33 engines for Kistler's planned =
commercial
> reusable medium-lift two-stage-to-orbit cargo =
ship.
> 
> Kelly Space & Technology has taken delivery =
of two surplus F-106's (a
> fifties-vintage delta winged long =
range interceptor with a 15' by 3'
> internal missile bay) they =
plan to use for proof-of-concept demos of
> their proposed =
"Eclipse" winged air-launched (towed by a 747) =
reusable
> medium-lift cargo ship.  Motorola announced =
they're buying options on
> ten Eclipse satellite launches for =
1999-2000, valued at $8.9 million.
> This can't hurt in Kelly =
obtaining development financing.  No word on
> how much =
Motorola has paid for the options.
> 
> The Boeing-Zenit Sea =
Launch project (Boeing will fly Ukranian SL-16
> Zenit boosters =
off a mobile ocean platform) is moving forward briskly,
> as are =
McDonnell-Douglas's Delta 3 and Lockheed-Martin's Atlas 2AR. =
 All
> of these are essentially commercially financed =
expendable booster
> projects, intended to compete for commercial =
launches.  Not yet cheap
> access, but the fact that =
commercial funding is available for well over
> a billion dollars =
of new launch projects is extremely encouraging.
> Between these =
(and several new/surplus-military small boosters coming
> soon) =
and the various medium-launch reusable companies starting to get
> =
financing, we see the beginnings of a major commercial space =
expansion
> that will be financing, building, and flying low-cost =
commercial
> reusable ships a whole lot sooner than most people =
expect.
> 
> We like it.
> 
> 
> =
-----------------------(SAS Policy =
Boilerplate)------------------------
> 
> Space Access =
Update is Space Access Society's when-there's-news
> publication. =
Space Access Society's goal is to promote affordable access
> to =
space for all, period.  We believe in concentrating our resources =
at
> whatever point looks like yielding maximum progress toward =
this goal.
> 
> Right now, we think this means working our =
tails off trying to get the
> government to build and fly =
high-speed reusable rocket demonstrators,
> "X-rockets", =
in the next three years, in order to quickly build up both
> =
experience with and confidence in reusable Single-Stage To Orbit =
(SSTO)
> technology.  The idea is to reduce SSTO technical =
uncertainty (and thus
> development risk and cost) while at the =
same time increasing investor
> confidence, to the point where =
SSTO will make sense as a private
> commercial investment. =
 We have reason to believe we're getting close.
> 
> =
With luck and hard work, we should see fully-reusable rocket =
testbeds
> flying into space well before the end of this decade, =
with practical
> radically cheaper orbital transports following =
right after.
> 
> Space Access Society won't accept =
donations from government launch
> contractors - it would limit =
our freedom to do what's needed.  We
> survive on member dues =
and contributions, plus what we make selling
> tapes and running =
our annual conference.
> 
> Join us, and help us make it =
happen.
> 
> =
            H=
enry Vanderbilt, Executive Director, Space Access Society
> =

> 
> To join Space Access Society or buy the SSTO/DC-X V =
3.1 video we have
> for sale (Two hours, includes all twelve =
DC-X/XA flights, X-33
> animations, X-33, DC-X and SSTO =
backgrounders, aerospike engine test-
> stand footage, plus White =
Sands Missile Range DC-X ops site footage)
> mail a check to: =
 SAS, 4855 E Warner Rd #24-150, Phoenix AZ 85044.  SAS
> =
membership with direct email of Space Access Updates is $30 US per =
year;
> the SSTO V 3.0 video is $25, $5 off for SAS members, $5 =
off for previous
> version 3.0 purchasers, $8 extra for shipping =
outside North America, US
> standard VHS NTSC only.  SA'97 =
conference registration (April 25-27
> 1997, at the Safari Resort =
in Scottsdale Arizona) is $80 through
> December 31st, $10 off for =
SAS members.  $50 SA'97 student rate.
> =
_________________________________________________________________________=
_
> 
>  Space Access Society =
     "Reach low orbit and you're halfway =
to anywhere
>  4855 E Warner Rd #24-150 =
            &=
nbsp; in the Solar System."
>  Phoenix AZ 85044 =
            &=
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bsp;     - Robert A. Heinlein
>  602 =
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> 


------=_NextPart_000_01BBBE72.DB21DF80--

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	["4624" "Sun" "20" "October" "1996" "10:49:25" "-0500" "L. Clayton Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "101" "Re: starship-design: Stellar drive?" "^From:" nil nil "10" nil nil nil nil]
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From: "L. Clayton Parker" 
To: 
Cc: "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        "Philip Bakelaar" ,
        "Steve VanDevender" ,
        "Zenon Kulpa" ,
        "Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39" ,
        "Timothy van der Linden" ,
        
Subject: Re: starship-design: Stellar drive?
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 10:49:25 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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----------
> From: KellySt@aol.com
> To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu
> Subject: Re: starship-design: Stellar drive?
> Date: Saturday, October 19, 1996 6:46 PM
> 
> >Kelly replied:
> >>> Now that I have said that, if anyone finds a method of 
> >>> shielding a magnetic field, it might be usable. Even 
> >>> better, shielding is but the first step to
> >>> FOCUSING which will boost the efficiency and power 
> >>> output enormously.
> >>
> >>> L. Parker
> >>
> >> Its called a Faraday cage.  Basicly a electrically 
> >> conductive outer liner with no significant gaps 
> >> for the fields to get through.
> >
> > Well, a Faraday cage has it's limits, it may decrease 
> > the fieldstrength but depending on the structure 
> > (thickness, conductivity, meshsize) of the wall
> > it leaves through a certain amount.
> >
> > Timothy
> 
> Ok, be that way.  ;p   Coat the thing with a super conductor.  What gets
> through you can convert back to electricity.  A better question is would
the
> thing work, and would it actually be efficent enough to be usful.  To my
> surprize 1 is sounding likely.  On the other hand.  2 sounds like a no
go.
> 
> Kelly

Well, I don't suppose it would be fair if I didn't at least offer an idea
for a solution. I haven't ever heard of a Faraday cage, and I am not sure
if it works or how strong of a field it would have to generate in order to
work, but how about if your second field was the shield also? Shaped kind
of like this:
                             \
                      O     |
                            /

Just a thought...

Lee
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




----------
> =
From: KellySt@aol.com
> To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu
> Subject: Re: starship-design: Stellar =
drive?
> Date: Saturday, October 19, 1996 6:46 PM
> 
> =
>Kelly replied:
> >>> Now that I have said that, if =
anyone finds a method of 
> >>> shielding a magnetic =
field, it might be usable. Even 
> >>> better, shielding =
is but the first step to
> >>> FOCUSING which will boost =
the efficiency and power 
> >>> output =
enormously.
> >>
> >>> L. Parker
> =
>>
> >> Its called a Faraday cage.  Basicly a =
electrically 
> >> conductive outer liner with no =
significant gaps 
> >> for the fields to get =
through.
> >
> > Well, a Faraday cage has it's limits, =
it may decrease 
> > the fieldstrength but depending on the =
structure 
> > (thickness, conductivity, meshsize) of the =
wall
> > it leaves through a certain amount.
> =
>
> > Timothy
> 
> Ok, be that way.  ;p =
  Coat the thing with a super conductor.  What =
gets
> through you can convert back to electricity.  A better =
question is would the
> thing work, and would it actually be =
efficent enough to be usful.  To my
> surprize 1 is sounding =
likely.  On the other hand.  2 sounds like a no go.
> =

> Kelly

Well, I don't suppose it would be fair if I didn't =
at least offer an idea for a solution. I haven't ever heard of a Faraday =
cage, and I am not sure if it works or how strong of a field it would =
have to generate in order to work, but how about if your second field =
was the shield also? Shaped kind of like this:
 =
            &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;   \
 =
            &=
nbsp;        O =
    |
 =
            &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;  /

Just a thought...

Lee


------=_NextPart_000_01BBBE74.5C2A9940--

From popserver Mon Oct 21 00:53:21 GMT 1996
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	["2542" "Sun" "20" "October" "1996" "20:48:58" "-0400" "Nick Tosh" "101765.2200@compuserve.com" nil "44" "Stellar Drive" "^From:" nil nil "10" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: Nick Tosh <101765.2200@compuserve.com>
To: "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" ,
        Phillip Bakelaar ,
        "Kevin C. Houston" ,
        Zenon Kulpa ,
        David Levine ,
        Timothy van der Linden ,
        "L. Clayton Parker" ,
        Kelly Starks ,
        Steve VanDevender 
Subject: Stellar Drive
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:48:58 -0400

Interesting idea. Is the physics really OK on this one? It sounds dodgy. I
don't follow the author's attempt to keep Newton's third. What if there
were no charged matter in the direction of the escaping fields? If there
were charged matter, would it not make a difference if it was mainly
negative or positive? The magnetic forces would be in opposite directions
for opposite charges. If there were no charged matter moving relative to
the electromagnets, there would again be no possibility of future magnetic
forces making up lost momentum. Does the concept depend on the statistical
distribution of charge and velocity throughout the universe surrounding the
magic drive? Surely the principle of reaction is not statistical in the
sense thermodynamics is. I have a few other points. Timothy wrote:

>Magnetic fields is just EM-radiation, usually magnetic fields are very low
>frequency radiation, in some cases almost non-alternating. In any case
>photons are exchanged.
>So you  could just as well (even better) use a laser to generate "local
>momentum".

How would you make a laser pull? Lasers, indeed all real photons, only
push. The force on the target would be cancelled by the reaction to the
laser emission in the emitter, and the system would experince no net force.
With pulling virtual photons, the idea seems to imply an odd free lunch -
the action and reaction are in the same direction. But we still pay for
it...

I think Kevin made a good point about the second electromagnet's field
interacting with the first electromagnet by inducung a current in it. I
don't think that shielding it with a superconductor would help - a current
would be induced in the superconductor, and you would still have your
unwanted reaction force. It would be like a bar magnet hovering over the
eddy currents it produces in a superconductor.

My final point is that if the system doesn't violate Newton's Third Law,
what's the point of it? Its not really a 'stellar drive' (how did
reactionless drives get that name?) at all. I assume the point of a
reactionless drive is to save a starship from using up its energy on
reaction mass - one would prefer that it convert all its stored energy into
KE for itself. But if the magnetic fields created eventually do accelerate
a distant 'reaction mass', no energy has been saved. So is the concept
really helpful for us?

Just out of interest, is there any way of focussing virtual photons to
concentrate a magnetic field in one direction? I doubt it's possible
without making the photons real first.

From popserver Mon Oct 21 01:23:53 GMT 1996
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From: Nick Tosh <101765.2200@compuserve.com>
To: "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" ,
        Phillip Bakelaar ,
        "Kevin C. Houston" ,
        Zenon Kulpa ,
        David Levine ,
        Timothy van der Linden ,
        "L. Clayton Parker" ,
        Kelly Starks ,
        Steve VanDevender 
Subject: Solar sail breaking
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:49:01 -0400

Hello everybody.

You may not remember me - I haven't contributed anything for nearly a year
now. I had computer problems that kept me off the net for over six months,
and for various reasons I've been very busy since. Anyway, I'd like to
'rejoin' LIT. I'm a student in England, and I'll be going to study physics
at university next year. You already have me on your mailing list, so I'm
pretty much up to date.

>From what I've gathered from reading past mailings, stopping a starship
powered by a Sol based particle/EM rad beam is a major problem. The (fairly
obvious) idea that occurred to me was that a solar sail would be much more
attractive as a braking device when approaching a target star at high
relativistic speed than as an accelerating device for leaving Sol. The
doppler shifts that are such a pain in the latter case, or for the Sol
based microwave beam, become a significant help if the sail is moving
towards the energy source (i.e. Tau Ceti, or even better, the multi-star
-triple?- Centauri system). If the starship is moving towards the target
system at velocity v, expressed as a fraction of c, then the the impulse
imparted per reflected incident photon of frequency Fo measured in the
star's frame is:
                  _____
2(h Fo)    /  1 + v
----------   /  -------- (by the way, do any of you use Mathcad? I hate
typing out maths like this and would much rather e-mail Mathcad files).
    c        \/    1 - v

(The photons is reflected, so its change in momentum is twice the magnitude
of its initial Doppler shifted momentum. I think that the reflected photon
is of the same -shifted- frequency of the incident photon, since otherwise
the solar sail would have to absorb more energy than it radiated, and this
surely cannot be a theoretical requirement; in any case, how would the sail
know what the 'proper' non-shifted frequency was meant to be?) The above
expression obviously shows that the impulse imparted to the ship by each
photon approaches infinity as the velocity of the ship approaches 1c.
Unfortunately, the mass of the ship also approaches infinity, so the
decellerating effect remains finite. However, the mass increase factor is 1
/ sqrt(1-v^2), while the impulse increase factor is sqrt[(1+v)/(1-v)]. If
we divide the impulse factor by the mass factor we get (1+v). So the
impulse per photon increases faster than the mass does - the decelleration
(in ship's frame) provided by the sail increases with speed. The limiting
case, v approaching 1, results in double the 'rest' decelleration. Since
for most other forms of propulsion relativistic effects make decelleration
more difficult at higher speeds, might not a sail be a useful additional
'brake' for the starship? (I wouldn't even suggest it as the only one). The
main disadvantage of this system would be that to reap the benefit of the
sails high velocity performance, the starship would have to still be moving
very fast while near enough to the target star to get a fairly intense
photon flux. Chances are it couldn't slow down in time. Some compromise
would be necessary. Could the ship purposely overshoot the star, so as to
get some big delta-V from the sail while VERY close to the star? As it
passed by, it could furl the sail to avoid getting accelerated away from
the star (I think I like that idea. Has it been considered before? Making
such a long journey even a little longer is an odd idea, but it could be
useful. I'll do some maths on it later).

I need some help on the following point. Does time dilation result in the
high velocity starship intercepting more photons per unit time than an
observer in orbit around the star sees the star emit in the ship's
direction? Does relativity really increase both the impulse gained from
each photon AND the photon flux (in the ship's frame)? I don't know enough
to answer this, and I'm too tired to think about it now. If the aswer to
this is yes, than I think some serious modelling of the sail brake should
be done immediately. Please could someone answer this for me as soon as
poss.

Could people tell me if this mail gets through? 

Nick

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From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39)
To: Nick Tosh <101765.2200@compuserve.com>
Cc: "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" ,
        Phillip Bakelaar ,
        "Kevin C. Houston" ,
        Zenon Kulpa ,
        David Levine ,
        Timothy van der Linden ,
        "L. Clayton Parker" ,
        Kelly Starks ,
        Steve VanDevender 
Subject: Re: Solar sail breaking
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 09:00:43 -0500

At 8:49 PM 10/20/96, Nick Tosh wrote:
>Hello everybody.
>
>You may not remember me - I haven't contributed anything for nearly a year
>now. I had computer problems that kept me off the net for over six months,
>and for various reasons I've been very busy since. Anyway, I'd like to
>'rejoin' LIT. I'm a student in England, and I'll be going to study physics
>at university next year. You already have me on your mailing list, so I'm
>pretty much up to date.


Hi Nick, welcome back.  Are you on the

starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu

List?  Its become our central list rather then addressing each other
individually.


>>From what I've gathered from reading past mailings, stopping a starship
>powered by a Sol based particle/EM rad beam is a major problem. The (fairly
>obvious) idea that occurred to me was that a solar sail would be much more
>attractive as a braking device when approaching a target star at high
>relativistic speed than as an accelerating device for leaving Sol. The
>doppler shifts that are such a pain in the latter case, or for the Sol
>based microwave beam, become a significant help if the sail is moving
>towards the energy source (i.e. Tau Ceti, or even better, the multi-star
>-triple?- Centauri system). If the starship is moving towards the target
>system at velocity v, expressed as a fraction of c, then the the impulse
>imparted per reflected incident photon of frequency Fo measured in the
>star's frame is:
>                  _____
>2(h Fo)    /  1 + v
>----------   /  -------- (by the way, do any of you use Mathcad? I hate
>typing out maths like this and would much rather e-mail Mathcad files).
>    c        \/    1 - v

Sorry.  Macs come with a free (oldish) version of Mathmatica.  Would the
files be compatible?

>(The photons is reflected, so its change in momentum is twice the magnitude
>of its initial Doppler shifted momentum. I think that the reflected photon
>is of the same -shifted- frequency of the incident photon, since otherwise
>the solar sail would have to absorb more energy than it radiated, and this
>surely cannot be a theoretical requirement; in any case, how would the sail
>know what the 'proper' non-shifted frequency was meant to be?) The above
>expression obviously shows that the impulse imparted to the ship by each
>photon approaches infinity as the velocity of the ship approaches 1c.
>Unfortunately, the mass of the ship also approaches infinity, so the
>decellerating effect remains finite. However, the mass increase factor is 1
>/ sqrt(1-v^2), while the impulse increase factor is sqrt[(1+v)/(1-v)]. If
>we divide the impulse factor by the mass factor we get (1+v). So the
>impulse per photon increases faster than the mass does - the decelleration
>(in ship's frame) provided by the sail increases with speed. The limiting
>case, v approaching 1, results in double the 'rest' decelleration. Since
>for most other forms of propulsion relativistic effects make decelleration
>more difficult at higher speeds, might not a sail be a useful additional
>'brake' for the starship? (I wouldn't even suggest it as the only one). The
>main disadvantage of this system would be that to reap the benefit of the
>sails high velocity performance, the starship would have to still be moving
>very fast while near enough to the target star to get a fairly intense
>photon flux. Chances are it couldn't slow down in time. Some compromise
>would be necessary. Could the ship purposely overshoot the star, so as to
>get some big delta-V from the sail while VERY close to the star? As it
>passed by, it could furl the sail to avoid getting accelerated away from
>the star (I think I like that idea. Has it been considered before? Making
>such a long journey even a little longer is an odd idea, but it could be
>useful. I'll do some maths on it later).

The stellar radiation would be too breif and weak to help us much.


>I need some help on the following point. Does time dilation result in the
>high velocity starship intercepting more photons per unit time than an
>observer in orbit around the star sees the star emit in the ship's
>direction? Does relativity really increase both the impulse gained from
>each photon AND the photon flux (in the ship's frame)? I don't know enough
>to answer this, and I'm too tired to think about it now. If the aswer to
>this is yes, than I think some serious modelling of the sail brake should
>be done immediately. Please could someone answer this for me as soon as
>poss.

Don't look at me.  I'm the fusion guy.  ;)

>Could people tell me if this mail gets through?
>
>Nick


Kelly


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kelly Starks                    Phone: (219) 429-7066    Fax: (219) 429-6859
Sr. Systems Engineer                                     Mail Stop: 10-39
Hughes defense Communications
1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106
Email:  kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


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	nil)
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From: "L. Clayton Parker" 
To: "Timothy van der Linden" 
Cc: "Nick Tosh" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>,
        "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        "Philip Bakelaar" ,
        "Steve VanDevender" ,
        "Zenon Kulpa" ,
        "Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39" ,
        "Timothy van der Linden" ,
        
Subject: Re: starship-design: Stellar drive?
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:17:46 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_01BBBF95.4E2C9EC0
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> A Faraday cage is a passive thing, it does not generate a field, it
converts
> the EM-radiation into an electrical current.
> It is not a complicated thing, it is merely a wiremesh in the form of a
cage
> (round, square) it's shape does not matter much, as long as it is closed.
> The general theory is that as soon as a difference in fieldstrength is
> present between two points of the cage, the electric current will resolve
that.
> The size of the mesh is important, the smaller the mesh size, the better
it
> protects against high frequencies.
> 
> By the way, why do we need alternating magnetic fields, or are constant
> magnetic fields possible too?
> 
> Timothy

Umm, is this Faraday cage made of ferrous material? Think about it...

L. Parker
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> A Faraday cage is a =
passive thing, it does not generate a field, it converts
> the =
EM-radiation into an electrical current.
> It is not a complicated =
thing, it is merely a wiremesh in the form of a cage
> (round, =
square) it's shape does not matter much, as long as it is =
closed.
> The general theory is that as soon as a difference in =
fieldstrength is
> present between two points of the cage, the =
electric current will resolve that.
> The size of the mesh is =
important, the smaller the mesh size, the better it
> protects =
against high frequencies.
> 
> By the way, why do we need =
alternating magnetic fields, or are constant
> magnetic fields =
possible too?
> 
> Timothy

Umm, is this Faraday cage =
made of ferrous material? Think about it...

L. Parker


------=_NextPart_000_01BBBF95.4E2C9EC0--

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	["16590" "Sat" "26" "October" "1996" "06:54:07" "-0500" "L. Clayton Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "306" "Fw: SSRT: RLV Support at Public Hearings" "^From:" nil nil "10" nil nil nil nil]
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From: "L. Clayton Parker" 
To: "Nick Tosh" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>,
        "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        "Philip Bakelaar" ,
        "Steve VanDevender" ,
        "Zenon Kulpa" ,
        "Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39" ,
        "Timothy van der Linden" ,
        
Subject: Fw: SSRT: RLV Support at Public Hearings
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 06:54:07 -0500

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----------
> From: Chris W. Johnson 
> To: Single Stage Rocket Technology News 
> Subject: SSRT: RLV Support at Public Hearings
> Date: Friday, October 25, 1996 8:07 PM
> 
> 
> 
> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 15:32:04 -0700 (MST)
> From: Donald Doughty 
> To: DC-X 
> Subject: Space Activists Asked to Support RLV at Public Hearings (fwd)
> Reply-To: delta-clipper@europe.std.com
> 
> 
> >Subject: Space Activists Asked to Support RLV at Public Hearings
> 
>                 * Advisory from the Space Frontier Foundation *
> 
>            **Space Activists Asked to Support RLV at Public Hearings**
> 
>        Please show up at one of the critical X-33 Public Hearings to
>      demonstrate public support for Cheap Access to Space!  The X-33
>      program could be placed in jeopardy over an irrelevant "Not in my
>      backyard" issue, if we do not have *visible* support to counteract
it.
>        There will be public hearings all across the western part of the
>      country during the next three weeks, and there are concerns that
>      some local citizens may show up at the hearings to oppose X-33
because
>      of a *few* sonic booms spaced out over a year as the RLV is tested.
>      The Space Frontier Foundation, a national grassroots policy and
media
>      organization, urges your attendance at one of the following
hearings:
> 
>           Meeting dates and locations:
> 
> 
>                Thursday, October 24, 1996;  7:00 P.M.
>                Washington State National Guard Armory,
>                6500 32nd Avenue, N.E., Moses Lake, WA  98837
> 
>                Monday, October  28, 1996;  7:00 P.M.
>                US Army Dugway Proving Grounds,
>                Dugway Post Theater, Dugway, UT  84022
> 
>                Tuesday, October 29, 1996;  7:00 P.M.
>                Tooele Senior Center, 59 East Vine Stree, Toole, UT 84074
> 
>                Wednesday, October 30, 1996;  7:00 P.M.
>                Quality Inn Airport, 5575
>                West Amelia Earhart Drive, Salt Lake City, UT  84116
> 
>                Tuesday, November 12, 1996;  7:00 P.M.
>                Best Western Antelope Valley Inn,
>                44055 North Sierra Highway, Lancaster, CA  93534
> 
>                Wednesday, November 13, 1996;  7:00 P.M.
>                Carriage Inn, 901 North
>                China Lake Blvd., Ridgecrest, CA  93555
> 
>                Thursday, November 14, 1996;  7:00 P.M.
>                West Boron Elementary School,
>                12300 Del Oro, Boron, CA  93516
> 
>                Saturday, November 16, 1996;  10:00 A.M.
>                Holiday Inn,
>                1511 East Main Street, Barstow, CA  92311
> 
> 
>                Background
> 
>           Under Federal law, NASA, as lead agency for the Reusable Launch
>      Vehicle program, is obligated to prepare an Environmental Impact
>      Statement to address environmental issues associated with
fabrication,
>      assembly, testing, and preparation of the flight operations site and
>      landing sites associated with the X-33 technology demonstrator
>      spaceplane. Of particular concern for all proponents of reusable
>      launch vehicles is the overflight issue, which includes noise
>      abatement and range safety concerns - *no* prior launch vehicle has
>      been allowed to fly over the continental United States during
powered
>      flight.
>            Part of the preparation for the EIS is a series of public
>      hearings to determine the feelings of the public on overflight and
>      other related issues. It is critical that supporters of Cheap Access
>      to Space publicly state at these hearings that rocketplanes should
be
>      considered more similar to aircraft than traditional missiles, and
>      should be allowed to overfly the continental United States.
> 
>               How to Help
> 
>         Your presence at these events will have a major impact on a
>      positive determination that RLV and other rocketplanes are to be
>      considered as similar to aircraft and to traditional missiles.
>        If you cannot attend any of the above meetings, interested parties
>      are invited to submit comments on or before November 29, 1996, to
>      ensure full consideration during the scoping process. Written public
>      input and comments on environmental impacts associated with the
>      proposed Program, including but not limited to, flight operations
and
>      landing site options, as well as related environmental concerns, are
>      accepted.
>         Written comments should be submitted, on or before November 27,
>      1996 to the Space Frontier Foundation, and will be forwarded to the
>      appropriate office. Please send your input via U.S. mail (no e-mail,
>      please) to: Space Frontier Foundation, 7584 Rush River Dr., #29,
>      Sacramento, CA 95831, or via fax to: (707) 649-0227.
>         The Space Frontier Foundation is a grass roots organization of
>      American citizens dedicated to opening the space frontier to human
>      exploration and settlement as rapidly as possible.  The organization
>      holds that only a reduction of one or more orders of magnitude in
the
>      cost of space access will lead to the booming new economic frontier
in
>      space America needs to survive and prosper in the next century.
>         For more information, please contact the Space Frontier
Foundation
>      at: davida5625@aol.com.
> 
> 
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----------
> =
From: Chris W. Johnson <chrisj@mail.utexas.edu>
> To: Single Stage Rocket Technology News =
<ssrt-news@zimbazi.cc.utexas.edu>
> Subject: SSRT: RLV Support at Public =
Hearings
> Date: Friday, October 25, 1996 8:07 PM
> 
> =

> 
> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 15:32:04 -0700 (MST)
> =
From: Donald Doughty <doughtd@pr.erau.edu>
> To: DC-X <delta-clipper@world.std.com>
> Subject: Space Activists Asked to Support =
RLV at Public Hearings (fwd)
> Reply-To: delta-clipper@europe.std.com
> 
> 
> >Subject: Space =
Activists Asked to Support RLV at Public Hearings
> 
> =
            &=
nbsp;   * Advisory from the Space Frontier Foundation =
*
> 
> =
           **Space=
 Activists Asked to Support RLV at Public Hearings**
> 
> =
       Please show up at one of the =
critical X-33 Public Hearings to
> =
     demonstrate public support for Cheap =
Access to Space!  The X-33
> =
     program could be placed in jeopardy over =
an irrelevant "Not in my
> =
     backyard" issue, if we do not have =
*visible* support to counteract it.
> =
       There will be public hearings =
all across the western part of the
> =
     country during the next three weeks, and =
there are concerns that
>      some local =
citizens may show up at the hearings to oppose X-33 because
> =
     of a *few* sonic booms spaced out over a =
year as the RLV is tested.
>      The =
Space Frontier Foundation, a national grassroots policy and =
media
>      organization, urges your =
attendance at one of the following hearings:
> 
> =
          Meeting =
dates and locations:
> 
> 
> =
            &=
nbsp;  Thursday, October 24, 1996;  7:00 P.M.
> =
            &=
nbsp;  Washington State National Guard Armory,
> =
            &=
nbsp;  6500 32nd Avenue, N.E., Moses Lake, WA =
 98837
> 
> =
            &=
nbsp;  Monday, October  28, 1996;  7:00 P.M.
> =
            &=
nbsp;  US Army Dugway Proving Grounds,
> =
            &=
nbsp;  Dugway Post Theater, Dugway, UT  84022
> =

> =
            &=
nbsp;  Tuesday, October 29, 1996;  7:00 P.M.
> =
            &=
nbsp;  Tooele Senior Center, 59 East Vine Stree, Toole, UT =
84074
> 
> =
            &=
nbsp;  Wednesday, October 30, 1996;  7:00 P.M.
> =
            &=
nbsp;  Quality Inn Airport, 5575
> =
            &=
nbsp;  West Amelia Earhart Drive, Salt Lake City, UT =
 84116
> 
> =
            &=
nbsp;  Tuesday, November 12, 1996;  7:00 P.M.
> =
            &=
nbsp;  Best Western Antelope Valley Inn,
> =
            &=
nbsp;  44055 North Sierra Highway, Lancaster, CA =
 93534
> 
> =
            &=
nbsp;  Wednesday, November 13, 1996;  7:00 P.M.
> =
            &=
nbsp;  Carriage Inn, 901 North
> =
            &=
nbsp;  China Lake Blvd., Ridgecrest, CA  93555
> =

> =
            &=
nbsp;  Thursday, November 14, 1996;  7:00 P.M.
> =
            &=
nbsp;  West Boron Elementary School,
> =
            &=
nbsp;  12300 Del Oro, Boron, CA  93516
> 
> =
            &=
nbsp;  Saturday, November 16, 1996;  10:00 A.M.
> =
            &=
nbsp;  Holiday Inn,
> =
            &=
nbsp;  1511 East Main Street, Barstow, CA  92311
> =

> 
> =
            &=
nbsp;  Background
> 
> =
          Under =
Federal law, NASA, as lead agency for the Reusable Launch
> =
     Vehicle program, is obligated to prepare =
an Environmental Impact
>      Statement =
to address environmental issues associated with fabrication,
> =
     assembly, testing, and preparation of the =
flight operations site and
>      landing =
sites associated with the X-33 technology demonstrator
> =
     spaceplane. Of particular concern for all =
proponents of reusable
>      launch =
vehicles is the overflight issue, which includes noise
> =
     abatement and range safety concerns - *no* =
prior launch vehicle has
>      been =
allowed to fly over the continental United States during powered
> =
     flight.
> =
           Part =
of the preparation for the EIS is a series of public
> =
     hearings to determine the feelings of the =
public on overflight and
>      other =
related issues. It is critical that supporters of Cheap Access
> =
     to Space publicly state at these hearings =
that rocketplanes should be
> =
     considered more similar to aircraft than =
traditional missiles, and
>      should =
be allowed to overfly the continental United States.
> 
> =
            &=
nbsp; How to Help
> 
> =
        Your presence at these =
events will have a major impact on a
> =
     positive determination that RLV and other =
rocketplanes are to be
>      considered =
as similar to aircraft and to traditional missiles.
> =
       If you cannot attend any of =
the above meetings, interested parties
> =
     are invited to submit comments on or =
before November 29, 1996, to
> =
     ensure full consideration during the =
scoping process. Written public
> =
     input and comments on environmental =
impacts associated with the
> =
     proposed Program, including but not =
limited to, flight operations and
> =
     landing site options, as well as related =
environmental concerns, are
> =
     accepted.
> =
        Written comments should =
be submitted, on or before November 27,
> =
     1996 to the Space Frontier Foundation, and =
will be forwarded to the
> =
     appropriate office. Please send your input =
via U.S. mail (no e-mail,
>      please) =
to: Space Frontier Foundation, 7584 Rush River Dr., #29,
> =
     Sacramento, CA 95831, or via fax to: (707) =
649-0227.
>         The =
Space Frontier Foundation is a grass roots organization of
> =
     American citizens dedicated to opening the =
space frontier to human
> =
     exploration and settlement as rapidly as =
possible.  The organization
> =
     holds that only a reduction of one or more =
orders of magnitude in the
>      cost of =
space access will lead to the booming new economic frontier in
> =
     space America needs to survive and prosper =
in the next century.
> =
        For more information, =
please contact the Space Frontier Foundation
> =
     at: davida5625@aol.com.
> 
> 


------=_NextPart_000_01BBC30A.7BB26A00--

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	["12838" "Sat" "26" "October" "1996" "07:50:12" "-0500" "L. Clayton Parker" "lparker@cacaphony.net" nil "239" "SFSU RESEARCHERS DISCOVER NEW PLANET WITH OBLONG ORBIT" "^From:" nil nil "10" nil nil nil nil]
	nil)
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From: "L. Clayton Parker" 
To: "Nick Tosh" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>,
        "Kevin 'Tex' Houston" ,
        "Philip Bakelaar" ,
        "Steve VanDevender" ,
        "Zenon Kulpa" ,
        "Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39" ,
        "Timothy van der Linden" ,
        
Subject: SFSU RESEARCHERS DISCOVER NEW PLANET WITH OBLONG ORBIT
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 07:50:12 -0500

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SFSU Public Affairs Press Release

Published by the Communications / Public Affairs Office
at San Francisco State University, Diag Center.


#24 October 22, 1996
Contact: Ligeia Polidora 415/338-1665

SFSU RESEARCHERS DISCOVER NEW PLANET WITH OBLONG ORBIT

"Eccentric" orbit shatters long-held theory of circular orbits

SAN FRANCISCO --

A remarkable new planet around a Solar-like star (16 Cygni B) has
been discovered by Drs. Geoff Marcy and Paul Butler of SFSU, and
Drs. Bill Cochran and Artie Hatzes of the University of Texas -
two teams working independently. This planet orbits its star with
the most extreme ``eccentricity'' (i.e., oblong shape) ever found
for any planet, e = 0.6, on a scale of 0 to 1. All of the planets
in our Solar System reside in nearly circular orbits, having
eccentricities less than 0.2. This new planet dismantles the
long-held theory that other planets in the universe would all have
nearly circular orbits.

The discovery was made by measurements of the Doppler shift of the
light from the Solar-type Star, 16 Cyg B, (spectral type = G2.5)
which is 85 light years from Earth. The star exhibits a periodic
Doppler variation, with a period of 804 days (= 2.2 years). The
star changes its velocity by +- 46.5 meters/sec every 2.2 years,
in a pattern that is NOT a perfect sine wave.

This wobble implies that a planet orbits the star with an orbital
period of 2.2 years and has a mass of at least 1.5 Jupiter masses.
The actual mass of the planet may be slightly greater than 1.5
Jupiter masses, the uncertainty being due to the unknown tilt of
the orbit plane which enters into the orbital physics (as the
trigonometric sine of inclination).

Of extreme importance is the unprecedented eccentricity of the
orbit, unlike that for any other planet. Its orbit carries the
planet from a closest distance of 0.6 Earth-Sun distances to 2.7
Earth-Sun distances at its farthest from its host star, 16 Cyg B.
The planet would experience extreme variations in the heat energy
it receives from its star, as it varies from Venus-like distances
to Mars-like distances.

The oblong shape of the orbit is easily determined from the graph
of Doppler-shift versus time. This graph is not a sine wave, which
occurs for circular orbits. The departure from a sine wave is due
to the speeding-up of the planet as it rounds the star at closest
approach, much as the sound of a car engine changes pitch (also by
the Doppler effect) as it rounds a sharp curve.

This planet adds to the mystery of a previously discovered planet
around the star, 70 Virginis (discovered by the SFSU Marcy and
Butler team). Its planet also has a large eccentricity of 0.4 ,
the previous record holder. But that non-circular orbit was so
discordant with the expected circular orbits from theory, that
some theorists hoped it could be dismissed as a failed star (i.e.,
a "brown dwarf"), thereby ignoring the problem of how a planet (or
any object) might become so eccentric. Now, new theories must be
found to explain these two eccentric planets. Proposed theories
involve collisions of two planets that scatter them into wacky
orbits (Doug Lin, UC Santa Cruz and Fred Rasio MIT) , or
gravitational perturbations from the disk of gas and dust out of
which the planets formed (Pat Cassen of NASA Ames Research Center,
and Pawel rtymovicz of Stockholm Observatory).

This new planet was discovered completely independently by two
teams: Drs. Bill Cochran and Artie Hatzes from the University of
Texas and Drs. Paul Butler and Geoff Marcy of San Francisco State
University and U.C. Berkeley. Each team has an ongoing, extremely
sensitive technique for measuring the Doppler shifts of stars,
designed explicitly to detect the perturbations imposed on the
stars due to the gravitational force exerted on it by orbiting
planets. This planet represents the sixth planet discovered by the
team of Butler and Marcy, and brings the total of known planets
outside our Solar System to eight.


TECHNICAL SOLUTION

Formally, this is the solution for 16 Cyg B from the COMBINED
measurements of both teams. The San Francisco State team provides
Doppler measurements that have better precision (8 m/s compared
with 27 m/s). But both teams detect virtually the same orbit.

ORBITAL ELEMENTS

P=    804.4 days   s.e. =  12.4
T (JD)= 48941.508 J.D.  s.e. =  10.523
K =   46.592 m/sec   s.e. =   8.219
e =    0.666   s.e. =   0.091
w (omega)   =   86.807 degrees     s.e. =  12.908

PHYSICAL ELEMENTS
a*sin(i)   =    3.84328E+08 meters    s.e. =  6.21915E+07
f(m) =    3.49068E-09 solar masses    s.e. =  1.69798E-09

One deduces that 16 Cyg B is about 1.0 solar mass, as it's
spectrum (G2.5 V) is nearly the same as the Sun's (including age
and metalicity). Indeed, it is often deemed a ``Solar Twin''.

This gives a companion mass of :

M_comp = 1.52/sin i Jupiter masses.

The semimajor axis of the planet about the star is:

a = 1.7 AU (1.7 earth-sun distances) coming directly from Kepler's
3rd Law.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++
+                                                                          
  +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and close your eyes with holy dread...
  +
+                                                                          
  +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++

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SFSU Public Affairs Press =
Release

Published by the Communications / Public Affairs =
Office
at San Francisco State University, Diag Center.


#24 =
October 22, 1996
Contact: Ligeia Polidora 415/338-1665

SFSU =
RESEARCHERS DISCOVER NEW PLANET WITH OBLONG =
ORBIT

"Eccentric" orbit shatters long-held theory of =
circular orbits

SAN FRANCISCO --

A remarkable new planet =
around a Solar-like star (16 Cygni B) has
been discovered by Drs. =
Geoff Marcy and Paul Butler of SFSU, and
Drs. Bill Cochran and Artie =
Hatzes of the University of Texas -
two teams working independently. =
This planet orbits its star with
the most extreme ``eccentricity'' =
(i.e., oblong shape) ever found
for any planet, e =3D 0.6, on a scale =
of 0 to 1. All of the planets
in our Solar System reside in nearly =
circular orbits, having
eccentricities less than 0.2. This new planet =
dismantles the
long-held theory that other planets in the universe =
would all have
nearly circular orbits.

The discovery was made =
by measurements of the Doppler shift of the
light from the Solar-type =
Star, 16 Cyg B, (spectral type =3D G2.5)
which is 85 light years from =
Earth. The star exhibits a periodic
Doppler variation, with a period =
of 804 days (=3D 2.2 years). The
star changes its velocity by +- 46.5 =
meters/sec every 2.2 years,
in a pattern that is NOT a perfect sine =
wave.

This wobble implies that a planet orbits the star with an =
orbital
period of 2.2 years and has a mass of at least 1.5 Jupiter =
masses.
The actual mass of the planet may be slightly greater than =
1.5
Jupiter masses, the uncertainty being due to the unknown tilt =
of
the orbit plane which enters into the orbital physics (as =
the
trigonometric sine of inclination).

Of extreme importance =
is the unprecedented eccentricity of the
orbit, unlike that for any =
other planet. Its orbit carries the
planet from a closest distance of =
0.6 Earth-Sun distances to 2.7
Earth-Sun distances at its farthest =
from its host star, 16 Cyg B.
The planet would experience extreme =
variations in the heat energy
it receives from its star, as it varies =
from Venus-like distances
to Mars-like distances.

The oblong =
shape of the orbit is easily determined from the graph
of =
Doppler-shift versus time. This graph is not a sine wave, =
which
occurs for circular orbits. The departure from a sine wave is =
due
to the speeding-up of the planet as it rounds the star at =
closest
approach, much as the sound of a car engine changes pitch =
(also by
the Doppler effect) as it rounds a sharp curve.

This =
planet adds to the mystery of a previously discovered planet
around =
the star, 70 Virginis (discovered by the SFSU Marcy and
Butler team). =
Its planet also has a large eccentricity of 0.4 ,
the previous record =
holder. But that non-circular orbit was so
discordant with the =
expected circular orbits from theory, that
some theorists hoped it =
could be dismissed as a failed star (i.e.,
a "brown =
dwarf"), thereby ignoring the problem of how a planet (or
any =
object) might become so eccentric. Now, new theories must be
found to =
explain these two eccentric planets. Proposed theories
involve =
collisions of two planets that scatter them into wacky
orbits (Doug =
Lin, UC Santa Cruz and Fred Rasio MIT) , or
gravitational =
perturbations from the disk of gas and dust out of
which the planets =
formed (Pat Cassen of NASA Ames Research Center,
and Pawel rtymovicz =
of Stockholm Observatory).

This new planet was discovered =
completely independently by two
teams: Drs. Bill Cochran and Artie =
Hatzes from the University of
Texas and Drs. Paul Butler and Geoff =
Marcy of San Francisco State
University and U.C. Berkeley. Each team =
has an ongoing, extremely
sensitive technique for measuring the =
Doppler shifts of stars,
designed explicitly to detect the =
perturbations imposed on the
stars due to the gravitational force =
exerted on it by orbiting
planets. This planet represents the sixth =
planet discovered by the
team of Butler and Marcy, and brings the =
total of known planets
outside our Solar System to =
eight.


TECHNICAL SOLUTION

Formally, this is the =
solution for 16 Cyg B from the COMBINED
measurements of both teams. =
The San Francisco State team provides
Doppler measurements that have =
better precision (8 m/s compared
with 27 m/s). But both teams detect =
virtually the same orbit.

ORBITAL ELEMENTS

P=3D =
   804.4 days   s.e. =3D  12.4
T =
(JD)=3D 48941.508 J.D.  s.e. =3D  10.523
K =3D =
  46.592 m/sec   s.e. =3D   8.219
e =3D =
   0.666   s.e. =3D   0.091
w =
(omega)   =3D   86.807 degrees =
    s.e. =3D  12.908

PHYSICAL =
ELEMENTS
a*sin(i)   =3D    3.84328E+08 =
meters    s.e. =3D  6.21915E+07
f(m) =3D =
   3.49068E-09 solar masses    s.e. =3D =
 1.69798E-09

One deduces that 16 Cyg B is about 1.0 solar =
mass, as it's
spectrum (G2.5 V) is nearly the same as the Sun's =
(including age
and metalicity). Indeed, it is often deemed a ``Solar =
Twin''.

This gives a companion mass of :

M_comp =3D =
1.52/sin i Jupiter masses.

The semimajor axis of the planet about =
the star is:

a =3D 1.7 AU (1.7 earth-sun distances) coming =
directly from Kepler's
3rd =
Law.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
++++++++++++++++++
+ =
            &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;           &nb=
sp;           &nbs=
p;            =
;            =
   +
+  Weave a circle 'round him thrice, and =
close your eyes with holy dread...   +
+ =
            &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;           &nb=
sp;           &nbs=
p;            =
;            =
   +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


------=_NextPart_000_01BBC312.51BA1D80--

From popserver Fri Nov 29 20:48:30 GMT 1996
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	["4777" "Fri" "29" "November" "1996" "06:40:32" "-0500" "Nick Tosh" "101765.2200@compuserve.com" nil "80" "Mission structure" "^From:" nil nil "11" nil "Mission structure" nil nil]
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From: Nick Tosh <101765.2200@compuserve.com>
To: "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" ,
        Phillip Bakelaar ,
        "Kevin C. Houston" ,
        Zenon Kulpa ,
        David Levine ,
        Timothy van der Linden ,
        "L. Clayton Parker" ,
        Kelly Starks ,
        Steve VanDevender 
Subject: Mission structure
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 06:40:32 -0500

Hi everyone.

Kelly wrote:

>This presuposes you want and can afford a colony there.  Given one would
be
>very expensive to maintain (all those long supply flights), its unlikely
to
>be maintained.  Be self sufficent would require a huge population and
>investment in equipment.  Which seems unwarrented.  We also haven't
>identified a reason to colonize there.

>If you did want to colonize their you wouldn't want to go to the planets.
>Its harder to find and process raw materials their, and since you can't
use
>the biosphere anyway, build a space colony.

What's the point of a hugely expensive manned trip there and back? With
advances in computer and robot technology, probes could surely perform this
task at much reduced cost, and with a powerful communication laser / maser,
wouldn't even need to make the return journey. The only motive for a manned
flight would be an extended stay and a very thorough on-site inspection of
the planets / stellar system. If this is to be done, I don't see that a
permanent presence would be so much more difficult or expensive. Compared
to the cost of shifting many millions of tons from Earth to TC within a few
years, the cost of maintaining a presence in-system can't be all that
astronomical. You wouldn't need a continuous flow if supply flights. Food
and supplies would be taken on the initial flight, and a major component of
the mission would be to set up a self sustaining biosystem, either on a
planet or in space (I feel that a planet, despite the disadvantages of the
gravity well, would have such psychological advantages that it should not
be dismissed lightly). Biotechnology is one of the most rapidly advancing
areas of knowledge right now. I think we can be fairly confident that
within a hundred years or so 'designer' organisms could be created
specifically for colinization purposed. A pathfinder probe sent before the
main mission to gather data on the planet(s) might make it possible for
plants to be engineered to survive in the 'open,' which would make
planet-bound base easier to set up - space would not have to be made within
the base for food crops (of course, plants/algae for oxygen generation
would still have to kept within the base. For maximum efficiency, I would
envisage separate, specisialist organisms designed for the two main
purposes of food and O2).

The other relevant technology, also undergoing rapid advancement at
present, is virtual reality. The psychological impact of spending long
periods of time - perhaps an entire lifetime - away from Earth would be
diminished, perhaps eliminated, by the availability of highly realistic VR
systems, possibly indistinguishable from reality. Updates could be sent 
regularly from Earth to keep the simulations up-to date. TC could be kept
no more than 10 years (or whatever the Earth-TC light distance is) behind
Earth in this way. The idea of replacing reality with simulations might
seem a horifc idea to us, but we must bear in mind the social and
collective psychological changes that may well occur in our culture as VR
is developed. I can imagine the distinction between reality and simulation
that seems so important to us being much less of an issue in a generation
or two (of course, colonists would still spend most of their time in the
'real' world doing scientific research and construction work.) We must
therefore consider the possibility that getting home might not be a major
issue for the colonists - or at least that people for whom this would be
true could be chosen for the mission. A large enough gene pool for a
self-sustaining colony could perhaps be squeezed into the Asimov (are we
still calling it this?), as long as careful genetic screening was carried
out to ensure that those chosen did not unnecessarily duplicate gene types.
Even if this were not possible, one way flights of small ships just
carrying colonists (no exploration equipment) could be sent to top up the
gene pool. The cost of this would be reduced if the first wave of colonists
had time to set up a decleerating particle beam / maser first (this would
also enable return flights, if absolutely essential).

I really believe that some kind of colonisation is required to justify a
manned mission of the scale we have been considering. The only benefit
that, in my opinion, could possibly outweight the almost globally crippling
cost of the program would be a major social advancement of humanity (a two
starsystem culture - I have thought of many advantages of such a culture
which I won't go into here). A colonization  mission would add so much to
the return from the massive investment, for a proportional increase in cost
which, for a culture presumably with colonization experience within the
solar system, would not be excessive.

Nick Tosh

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From: Nick Tosh <101765.2200@compuserve.com>
To: "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" ,
        "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" ,
        Phillip Bakelaar ,
        "Kevin C. Houston" ,
        Zenon Kulpa ,
        David Levine ,
        Timothy van der Linden ,
        "L. Clayton Parker" ,
        Kelly Starks ,
        Steve VanDevender 
Subject: Solar sails and mission structure
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 18:30:29 -0500

Hello again everybody.

Sorry I'm so slow to contribute, but I'm very busy working for my A-levels
- British equivilent of American high school graduation, only harder ;) and
preparing for an admissions interview for Cambridge University (British
equivilent of Harvard, only... no I'm not gonna say that). I'm afraid I'll
be a bit out of phase with everyone else for a while.

Thanks everyone for the mailing list info, I've just sent my subscription
mail. It doesn't send everything as one big mail does it? It's just that my
family's getting a bit fed up of finding 70 odd mail messages for me every
week!

Kelly wrote about my solar sail post:

>The stellar radiation would be too breif and weak to help us much.

I know it wouldn't be much good for a multimillion ton Asimov, but I had in
mind a light interstellar shuttle to ferry personel and light supplies
between the target star system and Earth, for which a solar sail might
provide helpful additional breaking, especially at highish velocity, maybe
passing the target star completely and reversing back, with the sail furled
of course (and using gravity to help) - see my last mail. (By the way,
Timothy, thanks for telling me that I can either count the photons OR
calculate the Doppler shift. I knew that particle and wave mechanics have
to be kept separate, so I'm not sure why I was being stupid. Always glad to
have you to correct me!) This really links in to my ideas on the mission
structure that I mailed to LIT just before I went off line (must be about a
year ago now). I've dug it out and pasted it below. Is anyone still
interested in mission structure? I don't recall we ever reached a complete
agreement. Please let me know your reactions to this concept.

Posted: 4 October 1995

>I've got a few points to make about the general structure of the mission.
>
>        Firstly, the mission should make future journeys to TC more
feasable - this
>would require the setting up of a small but expandable permanent presence
on
>one of the terrestrial planets. The ultimate aim would be for the TC
'colony'
>to be effectively self-supporting. The mistakes of the Appollo program
must be
>avoided - it will be essential to maintain the momentum of the program,
since
>the other alternative would probably be a general loss of intrest and a
set
>back of manned interstellar travel.
>       Secondly, I've always felt that using the Asimov to bring the crew
home is an
>inefficient solution. The Asimov is designed to be a heavy exploration
vessel,
>not a ferry. Once it has delivered its huge payload of machinery and
material
>to TC, using it to transport a relatively few number of people back to
Earth is
>somewhat ridiculous.
>       I would propose a fairly radical change to the mission plan.
>        - The Asimov should be designed as a one way vehicle for
exploration. Its
>effectiveness in this role can be maximized if the return flight is no
longer
>an issue.
>        - On arrival in the TC system it would serve as a permanent
space-based
>command, control, and support centre for the develpment projects on the
planet.
>Thus a permanent foothold can be established before planetary construction
is
>even begun.
>        - The construction of a 'colony' would be less frantic if those
involved knew
>that there already existed a safe haven for them in-system.
>        - Two or more dedicated personnel transport vessels, designed
separately from
>the Asimov, should be constructed. They would only have to ferry people
and
>small quantities of light supplies and equipment, and so would have a tiny
>fraction of the mass of the Asimov. It might therefore be possible to
propel
>this type of vessel using solar sail and magsail technology, augmented by
an
>artificial particle beam during the early phase of the flight, and a small
on
>board antimatter engine for maneuvering and possibly as an early boost.
>Ultimately, a two way particle beam between Earth and TC would be
established.
>It is even possible that the Asimov's engines might be used to produce a
beam
>to increase the acceleration of the small transport vessels back to Earth.
>Cetainly it could provide many support functions for the transports (eg
>communication relay, TC based mission control, repair).
>        - These vessels would be used to relieve the crew of the Asimov
with fresh
>people. The round trip (time dilated) for the original crew might be 25-30
>years (some might want to stay longer). With two vessels, a relief ship
might
>arrive in TC every 15 years (TC time)
>
>        If a permanent presence is to be established, it is clear that an
>interstellar shuttle system is needed. Further, it is obvious that a
>prohibitively expensive Asimov type vessel it not appropriate for this
>function. I conclude that if an austere ferry system will have to be built
>eventually, it makes sense to incorporate it into the original mission.
The
>advantages of having the huge Asimov remaining as a planet-orbiting base
in TC
>are obvious.
>
>Please respond with any opinions you might have about what I've said. Do
you
>agree with my basic argument, if not the details?

On another topic, I'm still not happy with the stellar drive system. It
still seems to me (after reading everyone's mails on the subject) that for
it to obey Newton's Third Law, it depends on a particular distribution of
charge around the drive that may (or may not, for all I know, I haven't
looked at this thoroughly) be statistically very probable, but surely isn't
an absolute requirement. So I ask again: does this concept put conservation
of momentum on an equal footing as the laws of thermodynamics (which are
essentially statistical, not absolute)? If it does, either it's very wrong,
or I'll be very, very, unhappy.

Sorry I haven't responded as fully as I'd like to other people's mails, but
I am reading them and  keeping fairly up to date.

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From: chrisj@mail.utexas.edu (Chris W. Johnson) (by way of "L. Parker" )
To: David , hous0042 ,
        KellySt , rddesign ,
        Steve VanDevender ,
        "T.L.G.vanderLinden" ,
        zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu,
        DotarSojat@aol.com
Subject: SSRT: Space Access Update no. 69
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 17:24:22 -0500


------


Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 15:47:08 -0700 (MST)
From: Donald Doughty 
To: DC-X 
Subject: Space Access Update #69 8/3/96 (fwd)
Reply-To: delta-clipper@europe.std.com



Subject: Space Access Update #69 8/3/96

                     Space Access Update #69  8/3/96
                 Copyright 1996 by Space Access Society
_______________________________________________________________________


The DC-XA "Clipper Graham" is, for all practical purposes, toast.  Here's
a quick preliminary look at what happened on the experimental reusable
rocket's fourth current-series and twelfth overall flight, along with some
thoughts on where we go from here.

We've had a chance now to look closely at a tape from the NASA satellite
feed, two views of the Thursday July 31st flight and the post-landing
fallover/fire.  We've also had time to talk to the usual suspects (aka
SAS's Advisory Board) about what all this means (this ain't a crisis, it's
an opportunity!)

The rumor mill meanwhile is pretty sparse, as it should be - there's an
accident investigation underway, to determine the causes and learn what
lessons there are to be learned, and nobody on the project has much to say
for the moment.  Pretty much all that follows is from the tape and from
general knowledge of the vehicle and program.

Summary: DC-XA was apparently experiencing some sort of hydraulic/control
problem with the landing leg on the southeast corner of the vehicle
throughout the two-minute twenty-second flight.  The leg then failed to
extend during final descent to the pad.  Once engines cut off, the vehicle
toppled to the southeast.  The liquid oxygen (LOX) tank ruptured massively
on side-impact, causing an immediate low-intensity explosion tearing apart
and setting fire to the forward section of the vehicle.  On-pad fire-
suppression water sprays reduced but did not eliminate the fire; somewhat
over a minute later, the liquid hydrogen (LH2) tank ruptured, tearing
apart and burning the mid-aft section of the vehicle. Once fire-
suppression water supplies were exhausted, the fire was allowed to burn
itself out; range-safety rules precluded approaching the site for twenty-
four hours due to explosive devices associated with the vehicle's
emergency recovery parachute. As best we can tell, what's left of DC-XA is
a lot of scraps plus the rather scorched nose and tail sections.

Background: The DC-XA had last flown in June, the two-flights-in-two-days
fast turnaround demo.  An attempt to fly in early July had been scrubbed
after first computer and then weather problems delayed things past the
available range time - White Sands Missile Range hosts dozens of different
test programs and time is tightly scheduled.  After this, it was decided
to stand down until after a new hydrogen-burning auxiliary power unit
(APU) had been installed - this APU was to take over the job of providing
hydraulic pressure for the vehicle controls.  (DC-XA engine gimballing,
body-flap actuation, and landing gear actuation are all via hydraulics.)
(A hydrogen-burning APU is a significant advance in that it can be run off
the ship's main fuel supply, reducing weight and simplifying support.)

DC-XA, it should be kept in mind, is by design a quick-and-cheap
experimental vehicle.  In order to meet tight schedule and budget
constraints, many systems that in an operational vehicle would have
mechanical or procedural backups are single-string with no backups.  This
is a frequent tradeoff in experimental vehicles; it is in general more
cost-effective to accept higher risk to get needed flight test data in a
fraction of the time and cost.  In this case, DC-XA had neither a backup
landing-gear extension mechanism nor (apparently) a one-gear-up emergency
procedure in place.

The two available views of the flight are both from the west. One is
closeup, with the bottom of the vehicle often out-of-frame, and cuts off
~1/2 minute after landing.  The other is a distant view and goes on for
nearly two minutes post landing.

In a previous flight of approximately the same duration, residual
propellants at landing were somewhere above 15% of the ~20,000 lbs full
load.  This would place residual LH2 at something over 400 lbs and
residual LOX at something over 2400 lbs, assuming a 6:1 ratio and similar
propellant loading and consumption this flight.  Vehicle dry-tanks weight
is ~20,000 lbs.


Sequence Of Events: Landing Gear. The closeup video shows that the landing
leg on the southeast corner of the vehicle (right-hand side away from the
camera) repeatedly partially extended then retracted again during the
flight, typically extending ~1/4 of full extension, typically extending
for ~1/10th second.  This extension is clearly visible at least once
during the ascent and twice during the descent, and possibly visible other
times - uncertainty is due to changing vehicle angle and to the vehicle
base repeatedly going out of the bottom of the video frame. The extension-
retractions were quick, and were at no obvious fixed interval - at least
once during descent a very quick extend-retract-extend-retract sequence is
visible.

When time came to extend the gear during final descent, the two legs on
the west side of the vehicle came down normally - slightly out of sync,
but no more so than seen on previous flights.  The leg on the northeast
corner came down ~1/2 second later.  The leg on the southeast corner, the
same one that had been partially extending during flight, did not come
down at all.

We conclude from this that there was some sort of hydraulic/controls
problem with the landing gear, possibly associated with the hydraulic
system rework involved with installing the new APU, possibly associated
with the new APU itself.  We note that there seemed no problem with engine
hydraulic gimballing or vehicle flight control.  We don't know enough
about the vehicle hydraulic systems to reach any further conclusions.

Sequence Of Events: Post-Landing Fire: DC-XA took ~5 seconds from post-
landing engine cutoff to impact on its side.  The vehicle is ~40 feet tall
and started toppling from a position with its center of gravity roughly in
between the SW and NE landing legs, pivoting to the SE on these two legs.
CG shift with residual propellant slosh likely accelerated the topple
somewhat once the ship was off-level.

Immediately on side-impact, the forward third of the vehicle aft of the
emergency parachute housing (the 'chute is in the straked nosecone
section) burst open with orange flame erupting and pieces flying short
distances.  We conclude that the welded aluminum-lithium LOX tank broke
open on impact, releasing ~1 ton of residual liquid oxygen rapidly,
igniting everything ignitable in the forward part of the vehicle.  We note
that this tank had serious fabrication problems involving welding the
seams (AlLi is notoriously difficult to weld); we suspect a seam may have
split open.

We suspect that if the LOX tank had not broken open, we'd still have a
slightly dented DC-XA, despite the landing gear failure.

The graphite-epoxy LH2 tank, meanwhile, apparently survived the side
impact intact, and stayed intact until the fire had been burning ~80
seconds.  The LH2 tank then ruptured violently, sending pieces flying tens
of yards and emitting a large semi-transparent fireball that rose away
from the ship rapidly.  The remaining hydrogen in the tank burned clear
and hot for a few seconds, then the remains of the ship went back to
smoldering.

Keeping in mind that the LH2 tank both was lower in the ship thus taking
less impact, and had several times less mass of residual propellant on
board, we still suspect we've seen a useful demonstration of the relative
damage-resistance of GrEp tanks versus AlLi.

We've also seen a demonstration that the WSMR three-mile radius safety
zone is probably considerably larger than needed - two hundred yards would
likely have been more than a safe distance from any of the events we saw
on this tape.  This has implications for future operating sites, we think
- the noise radius is likely to be larger than the safety radius.

Meanwhile, we expect there's not much left of the DC-XA except rather
scorched nose and tail sections.  We have hopes the engines may be
salvageable for use in a followon, but not a great deal of optimism - we
understand an initial evaluation of them was not good.

On the other hand, DC-X and then DC-XA already paid for themselves many
times over with the data and experience gained in the dozen flights they
made.  We now know a lot of things are possible we only guessed at three
years ago. X-vehicles by their nature are ephemeral; many never survive to
make it into a museum.  Though there is a case for transporting the
remains of DC-XA to a museum, if one exists with enough vision to display
the pieces as-is as a reminder that learning new things involves risk.


                                What Next?

It probably won't surprise anyone to hear that we at SAS think that this
changes nothing except the degree of availability of parts to build an
upgraded DC-X followon.  We still think the case for a USAF/NASA
partnership building and flying a high-speed DC-X derivative over the next
couple of years is compelling: The technology complements X-33 in that it
explores numerous major alternate approaches - see SAU#67 for a detailed
list - and the project would also provide continued competition in the
reusable launch field at a bargain-basement price.

The immediate need, for you political activists out there, is to get
Congressional support for continued DOD funding for reusable rocket work.
The tactical situation is this: The Defense Authorization for FY'97
currently provides $25m for RLV work in DOD.  The FY'97 Defense
Appropriation is on hold for now; work will likely get underway again in
mid-August during the month-long Congressional recess, and the actual
Defense Appropriations Conference will happen in early September.

What this means is, we have several weeks during the August recess to
contact members of the House and Senate Defense Appropriations
subcommittees back in their home states and districts, and persuade them
to support DOD RLV funding, preferably $50M targeted for a new DC-X
followon.  Again, check SAU#67 for lists, though you might want to check
your phone book "blue pages" government section for local office numbers,
as they won't be in DC much this month.

It is also worth contacting members of the Defense Authorizing committees
(Senate Armed Services and House National Security) and selling them on
the advantages of DOD RLV work.  This is not so immediately relevant, more
a matter of building for the future - but the future always arrives sooner
than we expect.

SAU#67 can be found at www.space-access.com.  We'll be coming out with
more detailed info on how you can support reusable rocket development as
soon as we can, but meanwhile, if you're a self-starter, between this and
#67 you should have what you need.  Ask for $50m for next year to get work
started on a DC-X followon. Go for it!

__________________________________________________________________________

 Space Access Society      "Reach low orbit and you're halfway to anywhere
 4855 E Warner Rd #24-150               in the Solar System."
 Phoenix AZ 85044                               - Robert A. Heinlein
 602 431-9283 voice/fax
 www.space-access.org                     "You can't get there from here."
 space.access@space-access.org                          - Anonymous
__________________________________________________________________________

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From: "L. Clayton Parker" 
To: "Zenon Kulpa" ,
        "Timothy van der Linden" ,
        "Steve VanDevender" ,
        "Steve Revilak" ,
        "Phillip Bakelaar" ,
        "Nick Tosh" <101765.2200@compuserve.com>,
        "L. Clayton Parker" ,
        "Kevin C. Houston" ,
        "Kelly Starks" ,
        "Flinn, Lora" ,
        "David Levine" 
Subject: Space Lift
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 20:00:31 -0500

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=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
Space Lift=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
3D"SPACECAST=0A=

SPACE LIFT
=0A=

Suborbital, Earth to Orbit, and on Orbit
=0A=

A SPACECAST 2020 White Paper 
=0A=

 (although this paper was collaborative work, comments may be =
directed =0A=
to the primary author, Major Chris Daehnick)=0A=
=0A=

=0A=
 A VISION FOR THE FUTURE: In 2020,=0A=
aerospace forces will be a reality.  A notional composite aerospace=0A=
wing, based in the continental United States (CONUS), would include a=0A=
squadron of rocket powered transatmospheric vehicles (TAV).  These=0A=
Black Horse1 vehicles, derived from the Question Mark=0A=
2 X vehicle2 (fig.1)and=0A=
described later in this article, will be fighter sized airframes=0A=
capable of placing an approximately 5,000 pound payload in any low=0A=
earth orbit (LEO) or delivering a slightly larger payload on a=0A=
suborbital trajectory to any point in the world.  Black Horse vehicles=0A=
could accomplish either task within one hour of completion of mission=0A=
planning, assuming that the payload was available at the base and the=0A=
vehicles were on alert.  When operating in support of a warfighting=0A=
commander in chief (CINC), the aerospace wing will thus have the=0A=
capability to put mission specific payloads on orbit (mission tailored=0A=
satellites) or on target literally within a few hours of=0A=
identification of a need.  Most missions - except some suborbital=0A=
operational and ferry/deployment missions - will require aerial=0A=
propellant transfer from modified KCXX aircraft.  These aerospace=0A=
craft will use noncryogenic propellants-standard jet fuel and hydrogen=0A=
peroxide-and will be designed for maximum logistics compatibility with=0A=
the rest of the wing.=0A=
=0A=
 
=0A=
 =0A=
3D"Figure=0A=
=0A=

 Figure 1. The First Black Horse TAV: "The Question Mark 2" X Vehicle=0A=
(Planform Comparison with F-16C)=0A=
(From a conceptual study done by W. J. Schafer and Associates and=0A=
Conceptual Research Corporation for Phillips Laboratory, January 1994)=0A=
=0A=
 
=0A=
 Maintenance and ground operations for the TAV will require no greater=0A=
specialized skills than those for any other aircraft in the wing.=0A=
TAVs returning from a mission would normally be serviced and returned=0A=
to ready-for-flight status in less than a day and could be surged to=0A=
fly multiple missions per day if necessary.  If tankers were=0A=
prepositioned in-theater, TAVs could also fly high-priority, global,=0A=
cargo-delivery missions.=0A=
 
=0A=
 To fully exploit the TAV's capabilities, designers will adopt a new=0A=
approach to satellite design-one that maximizes use of advances in=0A=
miniaturization and modularity. Most space systems' designers thus=0A=
will take advantage of the vastly lower cost-per-pound to orbit (less=0A=
than $1,000 per pound) that the TAV concept provides.  Orbital=0A=
payloads that are too large to fit in a single TAV can be designed as=0A=
modules, launched in pieces, and assembled on orbit.3=0A=
Some high value satellites will be serviced, repaired, and modernized=0A=
in space by space tugs, which will move payloads launched on the TAVs=0A=
to the mission orbit.  With space launch and operations made routine=0A=
by the TAV, multiple new uses for space systems will emerge, and the=0A=
design cycle for new systems will be greatly reduced.  Such systems=0A=
will be less expensive, simpler, and quicker to make; they will also=0A=
cause less concern if one does fail and will allow more rapid=0A=
inclusion of emerging commercial technologies.=0A=
 
=0A=
  The ability to orbit, upgrade, or even retrieve dedicated,=0A=
special purpose, space support capabilities quickly and (relatively)=0A=
inexpensively will dramatically change space operations.  Satellites=0A=
will perform navigation and most housekeeping functions autonomously.=0A=
Central ground sites will monitor, update software, and assist these=0A=
satellites in identifying repair requirements.  Theater forces will=0A=
task the mission payloads on these satellites directly by using=0A=
deployable ground systems that require less lift into theater than=0A=
1990s communications/data display terminals.  The result will be an=0A=
array of space systems and operations that are fully integrated into=0A=
global operations.=0A=
 
=0A=
  This description is not science fiction. It is an entirely plausible=0A=
outcome of the development program described in this article.  The=0A=
initial reaction of many readers to these assertions and to the Black=0A=
Horse TAV concept in general is that it is too good to be true and=0A=
that the claims are reminiscent of shuttle or national aerospace plane=0A=
(NASP) promises.  In fact, Black Horse is substantially different in=0A=
concept from either of those systems, and the numbers and assertions=0A=
presented here are based on a preliminary but iterated design (i.e.,=0A=
several steps beyond a point design) performed by technically credible=0A=
engineers. Following a brief discussion of the current lift problem,=0A=
the article explains the steps needed to produce operationally=0A=
effective TAVs and associated capabilities.=0A=
 
=0A=

Problems with Space Lift
=0A=
 
  THE UNITED STATES must have assured=0A=
and affordable access to space to expand or even sustain space=0A=
operations.  This means being able to place useful payloads in all=0A=
relevant earth orbits with high probability of launch success and=0A=
operation on orbit within hours instead of months or years.  It also=0A=
means the ability to operate flexibly in and through space to=0A=
accomplish both manned and unmanned missions in support of US national=0A=
and military objectives.4 By almost any measure, the=0A=
current US spacelift (earth to orbit) capability is not sufficiently=0A=
robust.  Worse, it is not improving.  Suborbital (operations through=0A=
space) and orbital maneuvering capabilities are almost nonexistent.=0A=
If the United States is to make full use of space in the next century,=0A=
military planners must address these shortfalls.=0A=
 
=0A=
 This article proceeds from the assumption that assured access to=0A=
space is crucial for many reasons: to enable future innovative ways of=0A=
supporting combat forces, to counter threats from unfriendly=0A=
spacefaring nations, and to create the conditions for a commercial=0A=
market that may ultimately support and drive rapidly evolving space=0A=
technologies.  Numerous studies5 are available to=0A=
support this assumption.  Ultimately, expanded military, civil, and=0A=
commercial use of space depends on assured and affordable access to=0A=
space.=0A=
 
=0A=
 A review of the limitations of current launch systems suggests=0A=
several specific problematic areas:=0A=
 
=0A=

    =0A=

  1. Current systems have severely limited abort capability because=0A=
of  such things as their predominantly intercontinental ballistic=0A=
missile (ICBM) heritage and the use of solid rocket boosters.=0A=
 
    =0A=

  2. Use of disposable hardware, manpower intensive operations,=0A=
and the design of US lift systems in general result in large,=0A=
recurring launch costs.=0A=
 
    =0A=

  3. There is little or no standardization of launch vehicles,=0A=
their interfaces, spacecraft buses, or payload interfaces.6=0A=
 
    =0A=

  4. Tailoring rockets to fit payloads is costly, wasteful, and=0A=
unnecessary.7=0A=
 
    =0A=

  5. Solid rockets and disposable hardware are generally not =
environmentally=0A=
friendly.=0A=
 
    =0A=

  6. The current huge and highly specialized launch infrastructure=0A=
(ranges, launchpads, personnel, etc.) causes expensive, lengthy,=0A=
and unresponsive launch schedules.  Unless an alternative is discovered,=0A=
this launch infrastructure will be archaic well before 2020.=0A=
 
    =0A=

  7. Spacelaunch and operations procedures are overly complex=0A=
and nonstandard, requiring "white coat" specialists instead=0A=
of "blue suit" operators.=0A=
 
    =0A=

  8. Launch operations are "serial" events. One payload=0A=
and one (dedicated) launch vehicle are readied interdependently=0A=
and step-by-step, a process that does not allow parallel preparation=0A=
of spacecraft and launch systems for flexible launch scheduling.=0A=
 
    =0A=

  9. The US does not have a flexible, operationally responsive=0A=
space launch system or the capability to reconstitute even a limited=0A=
capability on orbit in response to a crisis or loss (deliberate=0A=
or accidental) of any US space system.=0A=

=0A=
 
=0A=
 This article does not propose a new national space policy, a new=0A=
spacelift policy, or a "silver bullet" solution that=0A=
provides unlimited or unconstrained lift.  Rather, it proposes an=0A=
alternative architecture of space lift and sub-orbital and on-orbit=0A=
vehicle capabilities that will enable the country to perform new=0A=
missions in space, provide a responsive and resilient=0A=
spacelift/operations capability that is increasingly acknowledged as=0A=
militarily essential,8 permit an escape from the=0A=
current vicious cycle of cost-weight-size-complexity-risk-delay that=0A=
frustrates US government space systems, and offer the potential for=0A=
future commercial exploitation that not only would result in vast new=0A=
commercial opportunities, but also would logically drive development=0A=
of even better spacesystem capabilities.=0A=
 
=0A=
 This article proposes a spacelift system that can put usable=0A=
payloads on orbit affordably, has extremely high operational utility,=0A=
is responsive, requires little or no specialized infrastructure,=0A=
operates like an airplane, and has the potential to change the=0A=
approach to space as surely as the DC3 changed air travel.  It=0A=
also addresses potential suborbital missions that such a system=0A=
would allow; discusses different ways of deploying, servicing,=0A=
and redeploying space assets once they are on orbit; and explains=0A=
why this is desirable in some (but not all) cases.=0A=
 
=0A=
 If our nation has no desire for expansion in the use of space (either=0A=
militarily, scientifically, or commercially), it can no doubt continue=0A=
tinkering with existing launch systems and gradually refine procedures=0A=
to gain small, incremental improvements in efficiency.  This would=0A=
commit the United States to an ultimately selfdefeating cycle: the=0A=
continuation of increasingly large and complex space systems -=0A=
technologically obsolescent as soon as they become operational - and=0A=
ever fewer yet higher performance launch systems to put them on orbit.=0A=
The great risk, cost, and difficulty of replacement associated with=0A=
failure of one payload during launch or while on orbit demand=0A=
increasingly burdensome and unwieldy oversight focused on ensuring=0A=
that nothing can possibly go wrong.  In other words, not only will a=0A=
policy of business as usual not enable a breakthrough in the use of=0A=
space, it may ultimately cause some existing uses of space to become=0A=
unaffordable and unattractive.=0A=
 
=0A=
 The SPACECAST lift team recommends that the Department of Defense=0A=
(DOD) proceed with a modified space development program that=0A=
emphasizes the lift and on orbit operations technologies highlighted=0A=
in this article.  This program must emphasize, above all else,=0A=
increased operational flexibility and a concomitant reduction in=0A=
specialized infrastructure.  The top priority should be an X program=0A=
to demonstrate the validity of the Black Horse TAV concept.  The=0A=
entire cost of such a program would be less than $150 million (by=0A=
comparison, a single Titan IV launch costs $325 million).9 This type of system, although not capable of meeting=0A=
all lift requirements, offers great potential for a breakthrough in=0A=
making space operations routine and introduces multimission=0A=
capability.  It stands above all other spacelift ideas that have been=0A=
evaluated.=0A=
 
=0A=

Missions
=0A=
 
  THE TAV, LIKE THE airplane before=0A=
it, has the capability to perform many different types of=0A=
missions. The TAV concept is not intended to be all things to all=0A=
people; in fact, SPACECAST explicitly recognizes that one system is=0A=
unlikely to fully satisfy mission needs in every area. However, the=0A=
TAV can perform a subset of missions across several mission areas. In=0A=
this sense, it is like the C130 aircraft - basically a transport=0A=
airframe but with AC, EC, KC, MC, and other versions. SPACECAST=0A=
believes that the TAV can improve on this by using modular,=0A=
interchangeable mission modules (satellite or weapons dispensers, for=0A=
example) so that the same airframe - flying very similar mission=0A=
profiles - provides a flexible, responsive, multimission=0A=
capability. This capability provides tremendous leverage in achieving=0A=
global reach-global power and contributes to the overall SPACECAST=0A=
concept of "global view."=0A=
 
=0A=
 The core of the proposed spacelift and transportation architecture=0A=
is an innovative space access capability that can operate like=0A=
an air transportation system.  The US space transportation capability=0A=
of the future should include systems for moving payloads around,=0A=
within, or through space (suborbital, orbital, or return from=0A=
orbit).  SPACECAST 2020 proposes pursuing a spacelift development=0A=
strategy that provides solutions to the country's most pressing=0A=
problems, while encouraging  (but not assuming) future quantum=0A=
improvements in space transportation technology.=0A=
 
=0A=
Space Lift=0A=
 
=0A=
 If launch of a satellite becomes a less complex,=0A=
less time consuming, and less costly task, engineers can design=0A=
spacecraft for shorter lifetimes with ease of upgrade or replacement.=0A=
Shorter lifetimes would reduce fuel requirements, much of the onboard=0A=
redundancy, and other elements related to design life.  Designers=0A=
could avoid much of the current cost redundancy and complexity,=0A=
creating smaller, less expensive, and more technologically up-to-date=0A=
systems.  Evolving toward such systems would make replacements easier=0A=
to produce and launch, and the consequences of an on-orbit failure=0A=
could be remedied as soon as a satellite was available.  Satellites=0A=
that must be large (e.g., optics - such as the Hubble telescope - that=0A=
do not use interferometry) could be designed modularly and assembled=0A=
on orbit.  To take full advantage of this capability, the US would=0A=
have to revisit most of its basic assumptions about space operations,=0A=
starting with the type of spacelift system.10=0A=
 
=0A=
 It is important to note that a single system will not satisfy all=0A=
needs, just as variants of a single airframe do not perform all air=0A=
missions.  For example, a Black Horse TAV will probably never launch a=0A=
military strategic and tactical relay satellite (MILSTAR).  Also,=0A=
transitional measures may be necessary to preserve operational=0A=
capabilities until new technology systems come online.  This will=0A=
undoubtedly include expendable launch vehicles in the near term.=0A=
SPACECAST believes that the approach outlined below, while not=0A=
addressing all spacelift problems, provides the maximum potential=0A=
payoff for 2020 and beyond.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Any proposed lift system must address the operational concerns=0A=
and problems highlighted earlier.  Specifically, to be militarily=0A=
useful, a future lift system must be responsive (capable of launch=0A=
on demand), highly reliable, able to abort a launch without destroying=0A=
the vehicle (soft abort), resilient, flexible, logistically supportable,=0A=
and easily operated.  An overriding concern for all users - military,=0A=
civilian, or commercial - is that the system be affordable.  These=0A=
factors can be difficult to translate into specific numbers, so - rather=0A=
than setting quantitative goals - this article seeks a system that=0A=
offers a recognizable, qualitative improvement in the launching=0A=
of payloads into space. Numbers relating to the initial design=0A=
of the Black Horse TAV are mentioned here, but they show the capabilities=0A=
of an X vehicle designed with current technologies and should=0A=
not be interpreted as the upper limit of the vehicle's capabilities.=0A=
 
=0A=
Force Application=0A=
 
=0A=
 A version of the TAV contributes to our national=0A=
military strategy by allowing the United States to rapidly respond=0A=
worldwide to future threats with overwhelming offensive firepower. It=0A=
provides the national command authorities (NCA) and the CINC the=0A=
ability to accomplish strategiclevel effects in about an hour without=0A=
using weapons of mass destruction.  Rapid vehicle recovery, rearming,=0A=
and relaunch on subsequent missions allow the CINC to continue the=0A=
offensive through decisive followon attacks, thereby reducing the=0A=
effectiveness of enemy interference with reconstitution and recovery=0A=
attempts. Such a vehicle has the potential to escalate the pace of war=0A=
fighting beyond SPACECAST's projection of future threat capabilities.=0A=
The system capitalizes on three specific offensive advantages.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Speed and Surprise.  The greatest single advantage of=0A=
this weapon is surprise.  Strategic surprise results from the ability=0A=
to strike enemy targets at any depth with little or no warning.=0A=
Because kinetic energy multiplies the effect of weapons delivered from=0A=
a suborbital trajectory, the weapons themselves can be small (e.g.,=0A=
brilliant micromunitions); therefore, a single vehicle could=0A=
simultaneously strike a large number of targets.  Operational surprise=0A=
results from the rapidity of the completed attack, which may be timed=0A=
to catch an adversary in the process of deployment or employment of=0A=
inadequately prepared forces.  Tactical surprise results from a=0A=
variety of suborbital profiles that these vehicles can use to exploit=0A=
gaps in an enemy's defense.  The speed of the system - the ability to=0A=
put force on target anywhere in the world in a matter of minutes -=0A=
also converts the global reach of the system into a form of=0A=
"presence" that does not require constant forward deployment=0A=
of forces.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Mass, Economy of Force, and Persistence. This concept=0A=
can rapidly complete a strategic attack on multiple (perhaps even=0A=
multithousand) aiming points with a small fleet of appropriately armed=0A=
TAVs.  The exact number will depend on vehicle payload capacity, final=0A=
weapons designs, and cost.  Rapid revisit times allow continued=0A=
pressure on the enemy.  The concept also contributes to solving the=0A=
current concern of handling a number of major regional contingencies,=0A=
since the surge rate of the weapon system should allow destruction of=0A=
at least two widely dispersed regional opponents' key centers of=0A=
gravity within several days.  Finally, the simultaneous presentation=0A=
of thousands of small reentry vehicles to a surprised and defensively=0A=
helpless adversary will likely overwhelm him, thus ensuring the=0A=
success of our nation's objectives.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Synergy. The vehicle's ability to employ a variety of=0A=
weapons allows tailored effects to prepare the battlefield for other=0A=
weapon systems or to act as a force multiplier, allowing ground, air,=0A=
and sea forces unimpeded access to the battlefield to accomplish=0A=
followon missions.  Results can also provide synergistic effects for=0A=
other national instruments of power.=0A=
 
=0A=
On-Orbit Operations=0A=
 
=0A=
 Putting things on orbit (into LEO, in=0A=
particular) does not always satisfy operational demands.  Some=0A=
satellites must be lifted to higher orbits, and some key space assets=0A=
may require redeployment from one operation to the next (altering=0A=
orbits).  Missions to retrieve high value assets for repair or upgrade=0A=
(remotely on orbit, at a space station, or back on earth); to resupply=0A=
space platforms with things like fuel, food, or weapons; or even to=0A=
collect space debris and "dead" satellites from highly=0A=
populated orbits are also possible.=0A=
 
=0A=
 As a result, the US may need a system of transportation between LEO=0A=
and other orbits.  This is essentially an extension of concepts=0A=
already studied by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration=0A=
(NASA) and DOD. The SPACECAST team believes that these types of=0A=
systems complement any lift concept, permitting either larger payloads=0A=
for a given booster or the launching of a given payload on a smaller=0A=
system. For the TAV concept, postulation of a separate on-orbit=0A=
transportation system opens up additional missions, but it is not a=0A=
requirement for the TAV's performance of the basic missions described=0A=
here.=0A=
 
=0A=

The Vehicle
=0A=
 
 DESIGN OF A VEHICLE TO accomplish=0A=
multiple missions is seldom easy.  The history of the F111 aircraft=0A=
serves as a strong warning, as do our nation's unsuccessful efforts=0A=
(thus far) to accommodate all space users' launch requirements on a=0A=
single vehicle.=0A=
 
=0A=
 The critical factor in designing an aerospace vehicle is ensuring=0A=
that the mission profile (range, maneuverability, type of payload,=0A=
etc.) and the performance requirements (speed and amount of payload,=0A=
among others) of the proposed multimission vehicle are compatible.  If=0A=
they are, increased operational flexibility and cost savings through=0A=
common logistics and operational procedures become possible.  The=0A=
SPACECAST team believes that this is the case with Black Horse=0A=
vehicles for both the launch of spacecraft and the suborbital delivery=0A=
of weapons or cargo. As mentioned earlier, the C130 is a good analogy=0A=
in terms of design philosophy: simple and as rugged as possible, not=0A=
necessarily the highest performance system, but inherently capable of=0A=
multiple missions.=0A=
 
=0A=
Spacelift Options=0A=
 
=0A=
 The size of the payload put into orbit by a=0A=
launch vehicle should not drive the launchsystem design.  In fact,=0A=
small spacecraft have many potential advantages, mentioned=0A=
earlier. Cost-per-pound to orbit should be a key measure, and if the=0A=
cost is low enough, almost any mission payload can be repackaged to=0A=
fit a smaller launch envelope or accommodated on several launches, if=0A=
need be.  Those payloads that absolutely must have a launch vehicle of=0A=
a specific size will probably never be affordable, although overriding=0A=
national security concerns may still require their launch.=0A=
 
=0A=
 The strategy advocated here - reducing payload size for a system that=0A=
produces low operating costs - rests on four assumptions.  First, the=0A=
technology that drives space payloads (sensors, electronics, software,=0A=
etc.) is advancing rapidly - even accelerating.  This makes large,=0A=
complex satellites (because of their lengthy cycles of design and=0A=
construction) more vulnerable to obsolescence on orbit and favors an=0A=
approach that regularly places more uptodate systems on orbit.=0A=
Second, these same technological advances increasingly allow more=0A=
capability to come in smaller packages.  Modularity, interferometry,=0A=
bistatic radar techniques, and other technologies may even allow=0A=
things traditionally believed to require large, monolithic platforms=0A=
to be put in space incrementally and either assembled on orbit or=0A=
operated as a distributed system.  Third, economies of scale have=0A=
proved elusive in space systems.  Large boosters are not appreciably=0A=
(an order of magnitude) more cost effective (dollars per pound on=0A=
orbit) than small boosters, and no projected demand or incremental=0A=
improvements will significantly (again, by an order of magnitude or=0A=
more) reduce the cost of current boosters.  Finally, military space=0A=
operations will be increasingly subject to fiscal constraints because=0A=
many national security requirements may no longer justify performance=0A=
at any cost.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Despite these assumptions, several possible alternative systems=0A=
exist, most of which are familiar.  They include Pegasus; Taurus;=0A=
other light, expendable launch vehicles; converted sealaunched=0A=
ballistic missiles; hybrid (mixed solid/liquid propellant) rockets=0A=
(also expendable); a variety of reusable vehicles from NASP-derived=0A=
systems to DCX-derived single stage to orbits (SSTO); carrier-orbiter=0A=
concepts such as the German Sänger and Boeing's reusable=0A=
aerospace vehicle (actually a trolley launched system); and even=0A=
cannon or railgun launch (table 1).=0A=
 
=0A=
Which System Is Best?=0A=
 
=0A=
 Most alternative systems actually do not offer a=0A=
qualitative difference in the launching of satellites.  Pegasus,=0A=
Taurus, other expendables, and hybrid rockets fall into this category.=0A=
A qualitative difference is important because even the most ambitious=0A=
recommendations for improved conventional (expendable) boosters do not=0A=
offer more than a 50 percent reduction in cost-per-pound to orbit11 and in most cases still rely on antiquated range=0A=
support systems and - to a lesser extent - launch procedures.  Small=0A=
expendables, though more flexible and more operationally effective=0A=
than large boosters, typically cost even more per pound to orbit.  In=0A=
making a systemacquisition decision, planners must carefully compare=0A=
the lifecycle costs of reusable systems with those of mass-produced=0A=
expendables - a comparison that is beyond the scope of this article. It=0A=
is worth mentioning, however, that one of the hidden costs of=0A=
expendable rockets - particularly those using solid propellants - is=0A=
environmental. Although difficult to assess, adverse environmental=0A=
impact may be an overwhelmingly negative factor in the mass use of=0A=
small, expendable launch vehicles.=0A=
=0A=
 
=0A=
 =0A=

Table 1
=0A=

Qualitative Comparison of Launch Systems
=0A=

=0A=
  System         DC-X        Black                          Sea      Gun=0A=
Capability       SSTO        Horse       Pegasus   Taurus  Launch   =
Launch=0A=
	         	     	    	     	   	   	  	   =0A=
Responsiveness   Good        Excellent   Good-      Poor-   Poor-   =
Excellent=0A=
                                         Excellent  Good    Good  	   =0A=
	         	     	    	     	   	   	  	   =0A=
Flexibility      Good        Excellent     Fair     Poor    Fair    Poor=0A=
	         	     	    	     	   	   	  	   =0A=
Soft Abort       Fair-Good   Excellent     None     None    None    None=0A=
	         	     	    	     	   	   	  	   =0A=
Resiliency       Fair        Good          Fair     Fair    Fair    Good=0A=
	         	     	    	     	   	   	  	   =0A=
Logisitics       Fair        Good          Fair     Fair    Fair    Poor=0A=
	         	     	    	     	   	   	  	   =0A=
Reliability      Unknown     Unknown       Fair     Fair    Fair    =
Unknown=0A=
	         	     	    	     	   	   	  	   =0A=
Ease of          Good        Excellent     Fair     Fair    Fair    Fair=0A=
Operations     	 	     		 	   	   	  =0A=
	         	     	    	     	   	   	  	   =0A=
Environmental    Excellent   Good-         Poor     Poor    Poor    Fair-=0A=
                             Excellent                              =
Excellent=0A=
	         	     	    	     	   	   	  	   =0A=
Cost             Good-       Good-         Poor     Poor    Poor    =
Excellent=0A=
(lbs to orbit)   Excellent   Excellent                                   =
              =0A=

=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
 
=0A=
 Cannon/railgun systems may be attractive in terms of cost-per-pound=0A=
to orbit but have some severe limitations.  Payloads must withstand=0A=
accelerations of 1,000 Gs or greater (this does not facilitate=0A=
building less costly satellites with fewer constraints on the use of=0A=
commercial parts), and the US would become more - not less - dependent=0A=
on specialized infrastructure.  Barring a revolutionary advance in=0A=
propulsion technology (which is as unlikely in the next 20 years as it=0A=
is unforeseeable), the SPACECAST team believes that fully reusable=0A=
lift systems integrated with mainstream aerospace operations offer the=0A=
best hope for qualitative change in space lift.=0A=
 
=0A=
Problems with Reusables and General Design Goals=0A=
=0A=
 
=0A=
 From basic intuition through the justification=0A=
for the space shuttle to the most recent studies,12=0A=
fully reusable systems offer the greatest operational flexibility and=0A=
potential cut in launch costs.  Three problems continually recur: (1)=0A=
how to build a system that is completely reusable and has acceptable=0A=
performance; (2) how to justify the nonrecurring costs (infrastructure=0A=
investment as well as hardware development) to get the eventual=0A=
benefits of lower recurring costs; and (3) how to reduce recurring=0A=
costs to the point that one can expect an eventual payback.  The space=0A=
shuttle's problems in these areas and others have disillusioned=0A=
people, but a radically different design may finally vindicate the=0A=
notion of a reusable launch system.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Problems with fully reusable launch vehicles may stem from misplaced=0A=
attachment to old paradigms of space systems (e.g., at least 20,000=0A=
pounds of lift capacity are needed to place useful payloads in orbit).=0A=
The reason for this is twofold: first, it reflects assumptions about=0A=
satellite design that do not account for advances in miniaturization=0A=
and modularity (i.e., what has become possible) and second, it assumes=0A=
that payload size is the primary determinant of a launch system's=0A=
utility (as opposed to, say, cost-per-pound of payload in orbit or the=0A=
ability to launch on extremely short notice).  This mindset drives=0A=
performance to the edge of the envelope, creates tremendous=0A=
development costs and dependence on immature technologies, usually=0A=
fails to address operational implications sufficiently, and produces=0A=
huge specialized infrastructure requirements that further drive up=0A=
recurring and nonrecurring costs.  These crippling problems can be=0A=
overcome if designers challenge the old assumptions about space lift.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Space authorities have now acknowledged the negative relationship=0A=
between trying to get the maximum number of pounds of payload onto a=0A=
given rocket and optimizing cost/reliability.13=0A=
Further, as discussed above, the vicious cycle of large satellite=0A=
design and the opportunities provided by miniaturization and other=0A=
advancing technologies argue in favor of smaller, standardized=0A=
satellite designs.14 Finally, authorities on=0A=
military space have expressed frustration with the "custom=0A=
rocket" approach that comes from attempting to squeeze every last=0A=
ounce of lift out of a given booster.15 The time is=0A=
ripe to design an operationally sound launch vehicle - one that=0A=
utilizes existing, common infrastructure; one that can be maintained=0A=
by well-trained high school graduates; and one that can be operated by=0A=
well-trained college graduates without scientific expertise.  One can=0A=
then build payloads to fit it.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Development costs and dependence on immature technologies are linked=0A=
to the performance issue.  Because performance requirements are so=0A=
high, only exotic fuels, engines, or design concepts can possibly meet=0A=
them.  As a result, billions of dollars in research and development=0A=
are required to validate (and sometimes invent) the enabling=0A=
technologies.  All too often, the success or failure of a given=0A=
approach cannot be determined until the system is actually built, and=0A=
even a prototype incorporating many advanced technologies may be=0A=
prohibitively expensive.  As an alternative, the SPACECAST team=0A=
proposes an affordable X-vehicle development program that has clear,=0A=
near term military relevance and traceability to an operational=0A=
system.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Failure to take into account the operational implications of a launch=0A=
system - not just the launch crew but the support infrastructure for=0A=
such things as fueling, maintenance, logistics, or basing - has been=0A=
crippling in terms of cost and the eventual utility of systems.=0A=
NASP-derived and two-stage (carrier vehicle and space plane) concepts=0A=
seem particularly vulnerable to this shortcoming, although they still=0A=
represent an improvement over the huge, archaic, expensive,=0A=
inflexible, and manpowerintensive procedures required for current lift=0A=
systems.16 From the start, operational and=0A=
infrastructure considerations must have top priority. Space operations=0A=
must become as routine and non-exotic as air operations.=0A=
 
=0A=
Black Horse TAVs=0A=
 
=0A=
 To address these concerns, we can assume that=0A=
maximum performance (in terms of specific impulse for rockets) is not=0A=
necessary or even desirable.  This assumption permits consideration of=0A=
noncryogenic propellants, which offer several advantages.  If these=0A=
propellants are sufficiently dense, a workable lift system can be=0A=
designed.  The British did so with the Black Arrow and Black Knight=0A=
programs, using 1950s technology, because factors such as a reduction=0A=
in tankage volume, a decrease in engine complexity, and an improved=0A=
engine thrust-to-weight ratio make up for much of the (propellant)=0A=
performance loss (fig.2). Interestingly, one of=0A=
the most attractive combinations of noncryogenic propellants is jet=0A=
fuel (nominally JP5) and hydrogen peroxide.17=0A=
=0A=
  
=0A=
 =0A=
3D"Figure=0A=
=0A=

 Figure 2. Notional Vehicle Cross Sections for Different Fuels=0A=
(From Bill Sweetman, Aurora: The Pentagon's Secret Spy Plane=0A=
(Osceola, Wis.: Motorbooks International Publishers and Wholesalers, =
1993))=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
 
=0A=
 The real attraction of this propellant combination is in the=0A=
operational arena.  The propellants are easily available (hydrogen=0A=
peroxide is commonly sold for industrial uses at 70 percent purity;=0A=
vendors could provide higher purities, or the commercial product could=0A=
be refined on-site), storable, and pose no significant logistics=0A=
problems.  Rocket engines using these propellants also have excellent=0A=
reliability histories, both on the Black Arrow and Black Knight=0A=
programs and on the NF104D research aircraft.  The NF104D program=0A=
started such an engine (using JP4 and H2O2) at =
least two times on=0A=
every flight, experienced no rocket-engine-related emergencies during=0A=
11 years of operation, and was serviced and maintained with=0A=
"essentially conventional maintenance procedures and normally=0A=
trained personnel."18 Storage and handling of=0A=
high-purity H2O2 is not inherently dangerous and =
requires primarily=0A=
discipline - not extensive safety equipment.19 The=0A=
Black Arrow and NF104D programs routinely used 85-90 percent pure=0A=
hydrogen peroxide; there are no known chemical reasons why operations=0A=
with higher purities would be any more difficult.  Finally, servicing=0A=
a vehicle that uses cryogenic propellants requires many more steps=0A=
(and is thus much slower) than servicing a noncryogenic-fueled (such=0A=
as JP5 and H2O2) vehicle.  Even on the DCX SSTO =
demonstrator, which=0A=
had ease of operations as a design goal, fully 80 percent of the=0A=
preflight checklist items were cryogenics-related.20=0A=
 
=0A=
 If readily available and easily stored propellants are used, the only=0A=
reasons why a reusable vehicle could not operate from any location=0A=
would be specialized requirements for assembly/loading, launch, and=0A=
landing.  Although a vertical takeoff and landing system has=0A=
advantages in terms of empty weight and choice of launch/landing sites=0A=
(theoretically it needs only a small pad), the SPACECAST lift team=0A=
believes that a horizontal takeoff and landing system is a better=0A=
near-term approach.=0A=
 
=0A=
 A horizontal takeoff and landing space launch system has many=0A=
advantages.  First, sufficient airfields are available for any=0A=
conceivable mission. Second, fuel supplies and logistics=0A=
infrastructure (crew equipment, administrative support, ground=0A=
transportation, and maintenance and other ground personnel) are=0A=
already located at airfields.  Finally, a horizontal takeoff and=0A=
landing vehicle would almost certainly be more robust.  Its advantages=0A=
include a larger abort envelope, the ability to land with all engines=0A=
out, and greater crossrange on reentry. Although there is a=0A=
performance penalty associated with this approach (hence, the DCX=0A=
design), there is also an ingenious way to compensate for it - aerial=0A=
propellant transfer.21=0A=
 
=0A=
 True SSTO vehicles must lift all the propellant they need to reach=0A=
orbit from the ground.  This in turn drives the gross takeoff weight=0A=
of the vehicle (including the wing and landing gear for horizontal=0A=
takeoff and/or landing), as well as the vehicle's size and the engine=0A=
and structural margins needed for safe takeoff or launch abort.  Much=0A=
of this structure is deadweight long before the vehicle leaves the=0A=
atmosphere (hence, staged designs).  To date, two design approaches=0A=
have attempted to eliminate this problem for SSTOs: NASP, which is an=0A=
air breather for much of its flight, and the carrier vehicle/space=0A=
plane two-stage concept.  Both approaches have numerous drawbacks.22 However, if the TAV can be launched with minimum=0A=
propellants and then rendezvous with an aerial refueler to load the=0A=
remainder of the propellants, a different, more flexible design is=0A=
possible.  The choice of noncryogenic propellants is essential here,=0A=
and the properties of a JP5 hydrogen peroxide engine =
(H2O2 is almost=0A=
twice as dense as jet fuel, and the engine operates at a 1:7=0A=
fuel-to-oxidizer mix by weight) make it attractive for transferring=0A=
the bulk of the oxidizer after takeoff.=0A=
 
=0A=
 At least initially, designers have conceived the Black Horse TAV as a=0A=
manned system.  Without addressing whether or not a crew is or always=0A=
will be necessary, designers have planned for a crew for these=0A=
reasons: A crew is essential for the initial X-vehicle development=0A=
program, although that same program could test technologies that would=0A=
enable later unmanned versions (unmanned aerial refueling, for=0A=
example); a crew is desirable for several of the suborbital missions=0A=
described below; and a crew may be desirable for some operations in=0A=
space.  If the vehicle has an austere (U2-like) cockpit and is not=0A=
designed for long duration orbital missions (as will almost certainly=0A=
be true for the X vehicles), the effects of loss of payload weight=0A=
will be minimized.  The issue of whether manning the system causes=0A=
unacceptable costs is not a valid concern since this system is not a=0A=
piece of long-range artillery (e.g., an ICBM) converted for transport=0A=
use.  It is, essentially, a fast, high-flying aircraft with no greater=0A=
risks to crewmembers than any other developmental system.23=0A=
 
=0A=
 In summary, the Black Horse TAV is a new concept of aerospace=0A=
vehicle. It is not a new version of the space shuttle or NASP and=0A=
explicitly contains design choices in terms of size, performance, and=0A=
mission profile to ensure that experiences with those vehicles will=0A=
not be repeated. Specifically, Black Horse is a small vehicle with low=0A=
weight when empty and low weight on orbit, factors that historically=0A=
correspond to cost. Black Horse - at least the initial X-vehicle=0A=
concept as described below - is designed around existing technologies=0A=
for full reusability (unlike the space shuttle) and ruggedness at the=0A=
expense of the highest possible performance.  Any comparison to NASP=0A=
is particularly inappropriate: aside from horizontal takeoff and=0A=
landing, no similarity exists. Because of the airbreathing engine, the=0A=
low-density fuel, and the requirement to fly hypersonically in=0A=
relatively dense air, NASP required multiple technological=0A=
breakthroughs in propulsion and materials. By comparison, the thermal=0A=
and structural requirements of Black Horse are much less stringent.=0A=
 
=0A=
 The structure of the Black Horse was designed according to standard=0A=
aircraft practice.  That is, given the factors of maximum propellant=0A=
offload from a KC135 tanker; estimated structural weight (from the=0A=
volume required to enclose fuel, crew, payload, etc.); and assumed=0A=
weights for payload, crew, thermal protection, and other subsystems,=0A=
engineers designed a wing to provide sufficient lift throughout the=0A=
flight envelope. This design was then iterated to ensure internal=0A=
consistency. The resulting design has a relatively low structural mass=0A=
fraction when compared to that of other orbital vehicles. This is true=0A=
for two reasons.  First, the propellants are substantially denser than=0A=
"traditional" rocket fuels; thus, the enclosed volume of the=0A=
vehicle (hence, the structural weight) is low. Second, by transferring=0A=
the bulk of the propellant, the designers avoid the penalty of sizing=0A=
the wing, landing gear, and supporting structure for a fully loaded=0A=
takeoff. This technique results in a savings of 4,200 pounds for the=0A=
landing gear alone,24 and essentially makes the=0A=
concept possible. Critics of the concept have expressed doubts about=0A=
the numbers, but others - including Burt Rutan of Scaled Composites -=0A=
have no doubts about the technical feasibility of the structure.=0A=
Indeed, Rutan believes that the structure could be made even lighter=0A=
using composites instead of aluminum, as the designers assumed.25=0A=
 
=0A=
 Other structural issues include the design of the payload bay and the=0A=
thermal protection system. Although the payload bay was not designed=0A=
in detail, additional structure was assumed, based on aircraft=0A=
requirements for internal cargo or weapons carriage.  A thermal=0A=
protection system of blanket-insulating material and carbon-silica=0A=
carbide (for the nose and leading edges) with a weight of 1.1 pounds=0A=
per square foot was included in the design.=0A=
 
=0A=
 The baseline design is for a vehicle weighing 48,450 pounds at=0A=
takeoff (and 187,000 pounds after aerial refueling), powered by=0A=
seven rocket engines. Two engines suffice for takeoff and the=0A=
full refueling profile and are optimized for performance in lower=0A=
altitudes; the remaining five provide the additional thrust necessary=0A=
for global reach or orbital insertion.26=0A=
 
=0A=
 The performance of the engines and fuel (JP5 and hydrogen peroxide)=0A=
was estimated using NASA standard codes and incorporating losses from=0A=
geometry, finite-rate chemistry, viscous drag, and energy-release=0A=
efficiency. This results in a specific impulse of 323 seconds for the=0A=
low-altitude engines and 335 for the orbital-insertion engines.27 In terms of thrust-to-weight ratio for the engine=0A=
itself, the performance is no higher than what the British obtained=0A=
from the Gamma engines (using kerosene and hydrogen peroxide) designed=0A=
and built in the 1960s.  The designers believe that this is a=0A=
conservative estimate of potential performance.=0A=
 
=0A=
 The final element of the design is the payload deliverable on=0A=
orbit. This depends on several factors, but - as a figure of merit -=0A=
the designers chose a 1,000 pound payload in a 35 degree inclined, 100=0A=
nautical mile circular orbit (due-east launch from Edwards AFB,=0A=
California, from a refueling track at 40,000 feet and .85 Mach). This=0A=
assumes, of course, that the TAV also goes to orbit; flying a=0A=
suborbital trajectory allows a significantly greater payload (6,600=0A=
pounds) to be placed in orbit, even after the weight of an upper stage=0A=
(a 4,765 pound STAR 48V) is subtracted. If weapons or cargo delivery=0A=
is the goal, 5,000 to 10,000 pounds could be delivered on a suborbital=0A=
trajectory to almost any point on the globe, using the baseline=0A=
design.28 The designers believe that all these=0A=
numbers can be improved through better engines, lighter dry weight,=0A=
potential fuel additives, and a bigger vehicle (if so desired for an=0A=
eventual operational system).=0A=
 
=0A=
Design Requirements for Weapons Delivery=0A=
 
=0A=
 There are several alternatives for delivering=0A=
weapons, including the TAV described previously, ICBMs, satellite=0A=
basing, and intercontinental cannons.  The SPACECAST lift team=0A=
believes that operational flexibility greatly favors the TAV approach.=0A=
 
=0A=
 An appropriately configured version of the TAV can perform both=0A=
ground and spaceforce application missions with near-term=0A=
technologies.  Some key characteristics of the air-refuelable,=0A=
rocket-powered TAV that are particularly relevant are the ability to=0A=
operate as flexibly and responsively as an aircraft (with similar=0A=
operations, maintenance, and logistics infrastructures), an inherently=0A=
low-observable nature from most aspects (no inlets, blended surfaces),=0A=
and the ability to conduct manned missions.  The vehicle can also=0A=
exploit the advantages of space basing (low reaction times and high=0A=
energy states) with far greater operational flexibility and additional=0A=
defensive capabilities to survive future threats.  Although the ideas=0A=
presented here were conceived independently, this concept is not new.=0A=
Several other studies recommend similar vehicles.29=0A=
 
=0A=
 The system must have specific characteristics to accomplish the=0A=
force-application mission.  First, it must be able to launch from a=0A=
quick-reaction alert status.  This ability enables the short response=0A=
times critical to the success of any future weapon system.  The Black=0A=
Horse TAV is capable of fulfilling this requirement in large part=0A=
because of its use of noncryogenic fuels.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Second, the vehicle must be designed to incorporate modular weapon=0A=
systems sized to fit the payload bay of the TAV.  This concept allows=0A=
use of the vehicle for a variety of military missions, from force=0A=
enhancement through force application, thereby increasing=0A=
cost-effectiveness.  The TAV should be hard-wired to provide necessary=0A=
infrastructure requirements (for example, basic power and=0A=
communication links) to the module while the module reports=0A=
fault/degradation information to the operator or controlling computer=0A=
on the TAV.  Note that these interfaces would not be significantly=0A=
different from those required to launch a satellite.  The largest part=0A=
of the necessary weaponsdelivery infrastructure should be designed, as=0A=
much as possible, into the clip-in module rather than the carrier=0A=
vehicle.=0A=
 
=0A=
 The idea of weapon modules serves several purposes.  With this=0A=
approach, the vehicle is able to accomplish force enhancement missions=0A=
until it is needed for weapons delivery; in other words, it is rapidly=0A=
reconfigurable for different missions.  In addition, the weapons=0A=
modules can be preloaded with "wooden rounds," stored until=0A=
needed, and then quickly loaded on the vehicle.  Maintenance or=0A=
upgrades can be performed on the ground-based weapons, ensuring=0A=
maximum reliability and capability.  Finally, the module concept=0A=
offers quick reloads, which facilitate rapid turntimes and=0A=
sustainability.  By analogy with current dispensing systems, the=0A=
deliverable payload should be approximately 75 percent of the=0A=
vehicle's total payload capacity.30=0A=
 
=0A=
 Third, for survivability and maximum offensive potential, the vehicle=0A=
must have global reach from a suborbital flight path.  Global reach=0A=
provides operational flexibility while allowing the vehicle to launch=0A=
and recover from secure areas.  The suborbital requirement contributes=0A=
to self-protection tactics.  Additionally, since the suborbital flight=0A=
path requires less propellant than does orbital insertion, greater=0A=
weapon loads than those for orbital payloads should be possible.=0A=
Since weapons will generally be denser than spacecraft, this should=0A=
mean that an efficient, multipurpose, payload-bay design is possible.=0A=
Again, the Black Horse TAV satisfies this requirement.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Fourth, the TAV must allow rapid turnaround to follow-on missions.=0A=
This maintains the initiative and offensive advantage for the CINC and=0A=
allows rapid followon targeting.  It is unrealistic to assume that the=0A=
military will have enough vehicles to engage all possible target sets=0A=
with a single mass launch.  Actual requirements for turnaround times=0A=
will depend on the number of vehicles, the payload capacity for each,=0A=
the number of aiming points, and the threat.  Any attempt to fix a=0A=
hard number in relation to these requirements requires some detailed=0A=
operations analysis, but a 12 hour cycle rate seems a reasonable=0A=
minimum.  The TAV and associated aircrew to airframe ratios should=0A=
meet this requirement.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Fifth, the system should maximize the use of existing military=0A=
infrastructure.  This requirement is levied to allow launch and=0A=
recovery from the widest possible number of bases, which - in turn -=0A=
provides some measure of survivability through dispersion and=0A=
mobility.  The TAV provides a limited solution to this requirement and=0A=
is restricted only by airfield length/capacity and refueling support.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Sixth, the issue of designing this vehicle for humans is important=0A=
only in the near term.  Technology has not progressed to the state=0A=
whereby a computer can replace humans in all operations -=0A=
specifically, those in unpredictable environments or in degraded=0A=
equipment modes.  The SPACECAST lift team recommends designing early=0A=
vehicles for human operators. Although such a design will result in=0A=
higher weight and lower G capability (the latter is probably not an=0A=
issue for typical mission profiles), a human operator allows for=0A=
rapid, autonomous (in accordance with the commander's intent) decision=0A=
making when confronting the technologically advanced threat of the=0A=
twenty-first century.  When the database is developed and hardware and=0A=
software technologies are sufficiently proven, human operators=0A=
theoretically could be removed from the vehicle.  Virtual reality is=0A=
not a solution in the interim.  Communications links are vulnerable to=0A=
an advanced enemy, who could jam or exploit them.  Taken together, all=0A=
these reasons argue that human pilots and human systems operators will=0A=
continue to provide significant advantages - at least in the near=0A=
term.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Finally, payload size may be a limiting factor in some specific=0A=
employment scenarios. SPACECAST believes that the Black Horse TAV=0A=
concept offers sufficient payload potential to perform a number of=0A=
militarily useful missions. As mentioned earlier, a TAV capable of=0A=
putting itself and 1,000 pounds of payload on orbit can deliver=0A=
significantly more payload on a suborbital trajectory; further, the=0A=
significant growth potential in the basic design (sizing the vehicle=0A=
around the fuel offload from a tanker larger than the KC135, for=0A=
example) could lead to larger deliverable payloads.=0A=
 
=0A=
Weapons Options=0A=
 
=0A=
 Three classes of weapons are appropriate for=0A=
this vehicle: kinetic-energy, high-explosive, and directed-energy.  In=0A=
general, all weapons should be palletized or containerized to ensure=0A=
maximum flexibility in switching missions and to allow incremental=0A=
upgrades and maintenance while the weapons are in storage.=0A=
 
=0A=
 In summary, a TAV capable of employing modular military payloads=0A=
would provide the United States a sustained counterforce capability=0A=
for use against a wide variety of targets defended by increasingly=0A=
capable threats.=0A=
 
=0A=
On-Orbit Operations Vehicles=0A=
 
=0A=
 As mentioned earlier, the ability to maneuver=0A=
payloads on orbit provides enhancements to any lift system. This=0A=
section addresses some general issues but does not assume the use of=0A=
any specific vehicle design (for example, the STV of NASA's Marshall=0A=
Space Flight Center) or associated operations concepts. In other=0A=
words, SPACECAST is not advocating that on-orbit operations vehicles be=0A=
tied to any specific satellite architecture. However, the lift team=0A=
does recognize that tradeoffs will be an integral part of any decision=0A=
to pursue on-orbit operations vehicles (i.e., Is it better to=0A=
repair/service/upgrade a particular satellite or replace it?).=0A=
 
=0A=
 Two key issues are important to this concept: the utility of reusable=0A=
on-orbit transportation systems and the utility of on-orbit satellite=0A=
servicing and repair.  With regard to transportation systems, a study=0A=
by the Directorate of Aerospace Studies (DAS) of Air Force Systems=0A=
Command (now Air Force Materiel Command) in 1989 identified two basic=0A=
vehicle configurations or capabilities: an orbit transfer vehicle=0A=
(OTV) for moving things from LEO to higher orbits and an orbital=0A=
maneuvering vehicle (OMV) for moving things around within a designated=0A=
orbit and docking with and servicing satellites.  This architecture is=0A=
superior to the current approach (expendable upper stages and/or=0A=
propulsion systems integral to the spacecraft bus) for several=0A=
reasons.  Expendable upper stages are, by definition and design,=0A=
thrown away after use and become "space junk." More=0A=
importantly, however, although unit costs of expendable systems are=0A=
less than those of reusable vehicles, reusable systems are=0A=
"generally less expensive on a per mission basis" over their=0A=
lifetime.31=0A=
 
=0A=
 The DAS study also addressed the issue of whether or not it is=0A=
more advantageous to use an on-orbit transportation capability=0A=
to service and/or repair satellites or to continue fielding expendable=0A=
satellites.  As expected, there is no clear answer.  On the one=0A=
hand, the authors of the study conclude that "it is reasonable=0A=
to believe that there will be future circumstances which offer=0A=
cost advantages to repairable satellites."32  =
On the other=0A=
hand, the analysis was sensitive enough to the estimated characteristics=0A=
of future satellites (e.g., mission duration, mass, cost, subsystem=0A=
reliability, and launch costs) that the results were not conclusive=0A=
for all satellites in all orbits.  In general, satellite repair=0A=
becomes more attractive as constellation size and satellite mass,=0A=
cost, and mission duration increase and as launch costs and satellite=0A=
reliability decrease.  It is much more attractive from a cost=0A=
standpoint if satellites use modular, standardized/common subsystems.=0A=
 
=0A=
 The utility of reusable on-orbit transportation systems for satellite=0A=
servicing and repair in 2020 depends heavily on the types and=0A=
quantities of satellites in orbit at that time, as well as on the=0A=
capabilities and costs of US launch systems.  Given our assumptions of=0A=
increasingly capable small packages and the ability to put them=0A=
responsively on orbit, it is not at all clear that either repair or=0A=
resupply of existing satellites is an attractive mission.  On the=0A=
other hand, if smaller but more cost-effective launch vehicles make=0A=
on-orbit assembly and fueling of larger satellites desirable, many of=0A=
the technologies discussed below will be needed.  Ironically, the=0A=
present large-satellite paradigm and its associated high=0A=
cost-per-pound to orbit prevent testing the on-orbit repair concept.=0A=
 
=0A=

Operations Concept
=0A=
 
  THE TAV WOULD BE readied for flight=0A=
at an aerospace base differing from an air base only by the =
H2O2=0A=
storage and first-level maintenance equipment, all of which could be=0A=
deployed.  It would be fueled with 100 percent of its JP5 and=0A=
approximately 7 percent of its H2O2 capacity. It =
would then be loaded=0A=
with its payload, taxi and take off, rendezvous with a tanker and load=0A=
the entire tanker's capacity of H2O2, turn to the =
correct heading, and=0A=
depart for orbit.  The time from push-back to orbit would be less than=0A=
an hour.=0A=
 
=0A=
 After completing its orbital mission, the TAV would deorbit and=0A=
return to its own or any other suitable base - again, a very short=0A=
process.  A suborbital mission would be similar, and there would=0A=
probably be no need to refuel before returning to base.  Turn-around=0A=
time is somewhat speculative at this point (the X-vehicle program=0A=
would provide an answer), but a preliminary look at the technologies=0A=
(rocket engine, thermal protection, etc.) suggests it will be a matter=0A=
of hours or - at worst - no more than days.  Unlike the space shuttle,=0A=
the TAV would be designed so as not to require extensive refurbishment=0A=
between flights.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Two technical areas are key to the ability to "turn" the=0A=
TAV quickly: thermal protection and engines. For the former, the=0A=
combination of the aerothermal environment (less stressful than that=0A=
for the space shuttle, due to Black Horse's low wing loading and=0A=
deceleration high in the atmosphere) and advances in materials since=0A=
the space shuttle was designed should make a fully reusable system=0A=
possible. For the engines, the AR2 used on the NF104D provides a=0A=
baseline: it routinely operated with two hours of firing time (and=0A=
numerous restarts) between overhauls33; the Black=0A=
Horse designers believe that an improved design could do better.=0A=
Although one of the purposes of an X program would be to test the=0A=
limits of reusability of a TAV, the SPACECAST team does not believe=0A=
there are any showstoppers here.=0A=
 
=0A=
 This concept will provide vastly increased flexibility and=0A=
responsiveness in launching spacecraft and performing suborbital=0A=
missions, tremendously reduced operations and logistics infrastructure=0A=
compared to other lift concepts, increased reliability, suitability=0A=
for manned flight, and significantly reduced cost of space launch.  It=0A=
also builds on aerial refueling - currently an operational strength of=0A=
military aviation, performed hundreds of times a day - versus airborne=0A=
separation of large manned vehicles, performed only a few hundred=0A=
times in history in the development of new spacelaunch capability.  A=0A=
squadron of eight Black Horse vehicles, each flying only once per=0A=
week, would provide access to space hundreds of times per year,=0A=
making space operations truly routine.=0A=
 
=0A=
A Threat-based System=0A=
 
=0A=
 Future threats to the United States would have a=0A=
far greater effect on offensive operations than would current threats.=0A=
Several types of threats are possible: hostile satellites, ground and=0A=
space-based directed-energy weapons, ICBMs, third world nuclear=0A=
weapons, and other weapons of mass destruction.  An armed TAV could=0A=
negate future threats through a combination of countermeasures,=0A=
tactics, and survivable basing.=0A=
 
=0A=
 First, the construction of the vehicle should include as many=0A=
low-observable techniques as possible. Although today's low-observable=0A=
technologies will gradually lose their utility, they will force=0A=
adversaries to confine defensive systems to particular (and therefore=0A=
predictable) techniques.  They have the further benefit of reducing=0A=
the detection envelope of enemy acquisition systems and therefore=0A=
making the adversary's targeting problem more difficult.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Second, this system permits the use of onboard, active defensive=0A=
systems.  By using a suborbital trajectory during the attack profile,=0A=
a TAV may use such disposables as chaff, flares, towed decoys,=0A=
and active defensive munitions to defeat weapon systems without=0A=
creating hazardous space junk.  The design of the operational=0A=
TAV could also accommodate modular electronic countermeasures=0A=
(ECM) systems - weight and power budgets permitting.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Third, the TAV concept permits surprise.  Even if an adversary has=0A=
spies operating in the vicinity of airfields or if commercial media=0A=
satellites detect operations in progress or if the enemy detects=0A=
unusual launch activity, the specific aiming points, axes of attack,=0A=
and timing of attack are less easily predictable.  Launch to a single,=0A=
suborbital weapons-delivery pass followed by reentry and landing=0A=
compresses the time the adversary has to respond - especially an=0A=
adversary with neither space-surveillance capability nor=0A=
intercontinental-launch detection.  The enemy has minutes to observe=0A=
the mission, assess intentions, make the appropriate decision, get the=0A=
defensive capabilities in place, and complete the intercept.=0A=
Multiple, simultaneous, inbound trajectories compound surprise.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Fourth, the inherent flexibility of a TAV enhances unpredictability.=0A=
Again, the single suborbital pass serves as an example.  Since the=0A=
vehicle starts from ground alert, the enemy cannot predict the=0A=
mission's time over target.  The vehicle's ability to establish a=0A=
variety of suborbital trajectories, as well as approach the target=0A=
from differing orbital planes, also confounds the adversary's=0A=
predictive ability and may negate many of his defensive systems.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Fifth, a squadron of TAVs translates into mass.  The United States=0A=
will more than likely have a small fleet of these reusable vehicles.=0A=
The ability to mass several vehicles from single suborbital passes at=0A=
the time and place chosen by the CINC allows the commander to=0A=
overwhelm the enemy's defensive systems as well as concentrate the=0A=
appropriate amount of firepower to achieve required effects.  In the=0A=
absence of great numbers of vehicles, the same mass effect is=0A=
maintained through the ability of each vehicle to deliver a large=0A=
number of weapons.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Sixth, assuming the existence of an appropriate family of weapons=0A=
with sufficient crosstrack (to the sides of the delivery vehicle's=0A=
trajectory), the TAV will have standoff capability.  Thus, the=0A=
vehicle can release its payload outside the range of many possible=0A=
threat systems.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Seventh, several vehicles working in concert can use advanced=0A=
countermeasures as well as suppress threats for each other.  The=0A=
clip-in module for one vehicle, for example, might be a countermeasures=0A=
suite, while the clip-in modules for other vehicles in the flight=0A=
would be weapons.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Finally, TAV bases can easily be dispersed. Although threat systems=0A=
surely will have the ability to find and target aiming points in the=0A=
United States by the year 2020, their capabilities can be reduced=0A=
through dispersion of the TAVs to a wide number of bases, through=0A=
mobile operations, and through good deception plans.  (An enemy's=0A=
problem would be compounded if a large number of commercial TAVs also=0A=
exists.) Any attempt to force this system to consolidate operations at=0A=
a single, fixed location would be unnecessary and should be resisted=0A=
because it obviously provides the adversary a fixed, high-value target.=0A=
Logistics concerns can be adequately addressed by designing a vehicle=0A=
that shares existing aircraft infrastructure to the maximum extent=0A=
possible.=0A=
 
=0A=
 In summary, the ability of the TAV to accomplish its weapons-delivery=0A=
mission from a single suborbital pass, while using both passive and=0A=
active countermeasures, compresses the adversary's decision loop and=0A=
results in increased survivability.  The addition of low-profile basing=0A=
complicates the threat's targeting problem and ensures that fewer=0A=
assets are placed at risk during enemy attack.  This combination=0A=
results in a survivable system able to fight in the highthreat=0A=
environment of the twentyfirst century.=0A=
 
=0A=
On-Orbit Operations=0A=
 
=0A=
 To a large extent, the types of operations=0A=
performed on orbit will be determined by the capabilities that new=0A=
vehicles provide, whether OTV, OMV, or TAV.  Orbit-transfer vehicles=0A=
could reduce the need for upper stages on launch systems and increase=0A=
the amount of payload delivered to orbit.  Maneuvering vehicles could=0A=
provide some repositioning or on-orbit shuttle capabilities, a=0A=
function that would help make orbital operating bases (space stations)=0A=
functional.  Both of these vehicles will facilitate on-orbit=0A=
maintenance and upgrades to extend satellite lifetimes and combat=0A=
technological obsolescence.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Even the TAV has implications for orbital operations.  Besides=0A=
capturing satellites and returning them to earth, the TAV may be the=0A=
best means of changing a satellite's inclination.  Assuming it is not=0A=
easier to launch a new satellite to the relevant orbit, the TAV could=0A=
go to orbit without cargo (to conserve fuel), capture a satellite,=0A=
reenter, perform an aerodynamic maneuver to align itself with the new=0A=
orbit (perhaps in extreme cases, even refueling again), and then=0A=
return the satellite to space. Although the Black Horse studies to=0A=
date have not included calculations of the fuel required for on-orbit=0A=
rendezvous, this is a potential mission if the vehicle does not go to=0A=
orbit fully loaded; unlike shuttle operations, launching an empty=0A=
vehicle would not be a cost-prohibitive operation.=0A=
 
=0A=

Links to Other SPACECAST Areas
=0A=
 
=0A=
 THE CONCEPT OF THE TAV connects many=0A=
SPACECAST proposals.  The logistics of space lift with a militarily=0A=
capable TAV are now linked to the proposal on global view.  This=0A=
combination uses the proposed architecture to identify and pass=0A=
coordinates of critical targets to the TAV prior to its weapons-release=0A=
point, cutting to an absolute minimum the time from initial target=0A=
detection to destruction.  This ensures that the TAV uses the most=0A=
effective targeting intelligence to gain the greatest possible=0A=
strategic effects.=0A=
 
=0A=
 SPACECAST's proposals for force application address various weapons=0A=
and their suitability.  The TAV offers a platform for their use with=0A=
significant military advantages over other techniques, such as=0A=
satellite basing.  System architectures are compatible with the=0A=
weapons-delivery vehicle.  Finally, proposals for offensive=0A=
counterspace benefit from a TAV-based weapon system that could use=0A=
directed-energy weapons without our building, deploying, operating,=0A=
and defending an orbiting "battlestar."=0A=
 
=0A=
 Other linkages include the ability of the vehicles described here to=0A=
support the "motherboard" satellite concept described in=0A=
SPACECAST's space modular systems proposal, as well as the utility of=0A=
a space traffic control system in accommodating both the TAVs and=0A=
increased on-orbit activity.  Finally, many of the concepts in=0A=
SPACECAST depend heavily on improving and reducing the cost of access=0A=
to space-the heart of the concept of the Black Horse TAV.=0A=
 
=0A=

Potential Technologies
=0A=
 
=0A=
 ALTHOUGH A WORKING TAV in the form of an=0A=
X vehicle can be built with existing technologies, improved=0A=
technologies and/or supporting capabilities will enhance performance=0A=
in several areas.=0A=
 
=0A=
Structures =0A=
 
=0A=
 The initial study on the feasibility of an=0A=
aerial-refueled space plane34 concluded that an F16=0A=
sized X vehicle TAV built according to standard fighter-aircraft=0A=
design criteria and incorporating aluminum structures could place=0A=
itself, a crew, and 1,000 pounds of payload into orbit.  However,=0A=
further analysis of structural requirements and application of modern=0A=
design techniques and materials could significantly reduce structural=0A=
weight. As mentioned earlier, Burt Rutan of Scaled Composites believes=0A=
that this possibility is within current design and fabrication=0A=
capabilities.  Since Black Horse is a single-stage-to-orbit vehicle,=0A=
every pound of dry weight saved is an extra pound of payload.=0A=
 
=0A=
Engines=0A=
 
=0A=
 The same study baselined an engine no more=0A=
sophisticated or efficient than the one used by the Black Arrow/Black=0A=
Knight program (1950s technology).35 A modest=0A=
development program could certainly improve this level of performance=0A=
(efficiency and thrust-to-weight ratio) while improving reliability=0A=
and maintainability.  Further, a hybrid engine such as a ducted=0A=
rocket36 (admittedly a separate development program)=0A=
could offer both increased performance and reduced noise - both=0A=
potentially critical factors for widespread commercial use of TAVs.=0A=
 
=0A=
Propellants=0A=
 
=0A=
 Although the intent of the program is to stay=0A=
away from exotic or hazardous materials, certain options increase=0A=
specific impulse without sacrificing operability.  Some possibilities=0A=
are fuel additives such as quadricyclene, denser hydrocarbons (JP8 or=0A=
10 instead of JP5), or - in the far term - high-energy-density=0A=
substances such as metastable fuels.  As long as the fuel continues to=0A=
meet operability and logistics concerns, this area has tremendous=0A=
potential payoff.  An increase of one second in specific impulse would=0A=
increase payload on orbit by 128 pounds for the initial Black Horse=0A=
design.37=0A=
 
=0A=
Thermal Protection System=0A=
 
=0A=
 The feasibility study mentioned above baselined=0A=
durable tailored advanced blanket insulation (DuraTABI) material,=0A=
which weighs 1.1 pounds per square foot, for area=0A=
("acreage") coverage and carbon-silica carbide (C/SiC) for=0A=
the nose, wing, strake, and rudder leading edges.  Detailed=0A=
aerothermodynamic reentry calculations may indicate a less stringent=0A=
requirement for thermal protection than was assumed in the initial=0A=
design, possibly even allowing an all-metal skin (Rene 41 or Iconel=0A=
617).  On the other hand, retaining excess thermal protection -=0A=
perhaps by applying more advanced thermal protection systems - could=0A=
give the vehicle a larger reentry envelope and even more operational=0A=
flexibility.=0A=
 
=0A=
Refueling Vehicle=0A=
 
=0A=
 Designers sized the TAV around the maximum=0A=
amount of propellant that a single KC135Q could transfer.  These=0A=
aircraft are in the inventory and already have separate aircraft fuel=0A=
tanks and offloadable propellant tanks.  Thus, they would require=0A=
minimum modification.  The availability of a modified KC10 or large=0A=
commercial aircraft derivative to offload H2O2 =
would greatly increase=0A=
the potential size and payload of the TAV without significantly=0A=
changing (except perhaps to reduce) the costperpound to orbit.=0A=
Although this is more a programmatic than a technical issue, there are=0A=
potential areas for investment in higher capacity pumps and perhaps a=0A=
dual-tube boom refueling system to transfer both fuel and oxidizer at=0A=
once.=0A=
 
=0A=
On-Orbit Operations Vehicles=0A=
 
=0A=
 As mentioned earlier, on-orbit operations=0A=
vehicles complement most lift concepts. These vehicles have distinct=0A=
technology development, demonstration, and validation needs.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Technologies required to implement on-orbit operations architecture=0A=
include high-efficiency, reusable, space-propulsion systems.  Cost,=0A=
performance, and operational-utility analyses are needed to select=0A=
from among the various potential technologies.  Candidates include=0A=
conventional chemical, electric, nuclear, and solar-thermal propulsion=0A=
systems.  Issues to be addressed would include power sources for=0A=
electric propulsion concepts; radiation shielding, high temperature=0A=
materials, launch safety, and waste disposal for nuclear propulsion=0A=
concepts; solar concentrator fabrication and high temperature=0A=
materials for solar thermal propulsion concepts; and longlife=0A=
performance/reliability demonstrations for all concepts.=0A=
 
=0A=
 The on-orbit operations vehicles will require robotics for docking,=0A=
grasping, repair, and resupply operations and/or telepresence/virtual=0A=
reality/artificial intelligence technologies in some combination for=0A=
on-orbit operations.  Planners need analyses to determine the extent=0A=
to which humans must participate in repair/servicing operations.=0A=
Considering the technologies expected to be available in 2020,=0A=
planners need to know what tasks can be done only by human beings,=0A=
what tasks can be done remotely with humans in the loop, and what=0A=
tasks can be done autonomously.  Artificial intelligence technologies=0A=
could reduce the requirement for human-in-the-loop operations in=0A=
circumstances in which this would be difficult or present technical=0A=
challenges.  Again, this requires further analysis.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Spacecraft design would have to change significantly to obtain=0A=
maximum utility from the TAV concept.  Docking operations would=0A=
require some degree of spacecraft bus standardization. Refueling=0A=
operations would require standardization of the propellant feed=0A=
system.  Such design approaches as standard spacecraft buses and=0A=
standard, modular, miniaturized subsystems and interfaces would=0A=
facilitate repair/upgrade operation.  External structures such as=0A=
solar arrays and antennae might have to fold to withstand the=0A=
accelerations associated with high-impulse spacecraft maneuvers or to=0A=
stow the spacecraft in the bay of a TAV for redeployment.  It is=0A=
important to note that many of these changes will happen with or=0A=
without the development of on-orbit servicing.  They are driven by the=0A=
need to reduce the costs and timelines associated with the=0A=
earth-to-orbit segment of the transportation system.=0A=
 
=0A=
 OTVs may need supporting "bases" in certain critical=0A=
locations.  For transportation to high altitude, low inclination=0A=
orbits, unmanned co-inclination platforms in LEO would serve as=0A=
cargo-transfer and jumping-off points for OTVs.  Orbits containing=0A=
large numbers of higher-cost satellites or fewer extremely expensive=0A=
satellites would require co-orbital, unmanned platforms where OTVs=0A=
could transfer payloads to OMVs for final orbit insertion or=0A=
docking/repair.38=0A=
 
=0A=

NearTerm Technologies and Operational Exploitation Opportunities
=0A=
=0A=
 
  DESIGNERS CAN USE EXISTING and=0A=
proven technologies - aluminum structure and Dura-TABI thermal=0A=
protection - to develop and fly an X vehicle to demonstrate the=0A=
feasibility and operational utility of the Black Horse.  As an interim=0A=
step, existing AR2 engines could be used to fly the vehicle through=0A=
all of its atmospheric flight profile, testing handling, formation=0A=
flying, refueling, and suborbital trajectories, while a concurrent=0A=
engine development program produces the higher performance engines=0A=
needed to reach orbit. The basic concept is for a crewed vehicle=0A=
approximately the size of an F16 (but with only 70 percent of its dry=0A=
weight) that could take off from and land on virtually any runway,=0A=
load the bulk of its propellant (all oxidizer) from a KC135Q (or T)=0A=
tanker at approximately 40,000 feet and Mach 0.85,39=0A=
and then carry out an orbital or suborbital flight.  An experimental=0A=
program could allow testing of the TAV as the US has tested aircraft=0A=
for decades, with a gradual expansion of the performance envelope to=0A=
meet the necessary objectives.40=0A=
 
=0A=
 The primary areas for design and development are the vehicle=0A=
aerodynamic configuration, higherperformance rocket engines, and the=0A=
vehicle structure.  A study by W. J. Schafer and Associates and=0A=
Conceptual Research Corporation41 indicates that=0A=
there are no technological roadblocks in this area and that a vehicle=0A=
could be designed and tested with existing technologies, although=0A=
there is room for improvement using advanced materials.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Areas that require some careful design work but no technological=0A=
breakthroughs are the need for thermal protection, the need to=0A=
cycle landing gear through the thermal protective surface, and=0A=
the use of structural composites.  It therefore appears that an=0A=
X-vehicle program could proceed with existing technologies.=0A=
=0A=
 
=0A=
 Although cost is not the single driving issue in this study, several=0A=
comparative estimates of a two TAV, 100flight (including orbital)=0A=
X-vehicle program suggest that the military could conduct such a=0A=
program for a reasonable amount of money.  Using actual X29 and X31=0A=
cost data, the Question Mark 2 TAV X-program would cost about $78=0A=
million (M).  A cost model for the Lockheed Skunkworks program yielded=0A=
$96M.  The Rand Corporation Development and Procurement Costs of=0A=
Aircraft (DAPCA) IV model gave a total program cost of $118M.=0A=
Finally, a cost estimate by an Aerospace Corporation analyst came up=0A=
with $120M.42 Although these are rough estimates and=0A=
although a vehicle of this type has never been built before, the fact=0A=
that differing methodologies independently came up with similar=0A=
numbers is somewhat encouraging.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Initial estimates, using a cost model based on actual expense data=0A=
for the SR71, suggest that a Black Horse vehicle could place payloads=0A=
into LEO at a cost of less than $1,000 per pound (the model yields=0A=
costs between $50 and $500 per pound, depending on assumptions), with=0A=
a per-sortie cost of around $260,000 and an annual operating budget=0A=
for an eight-TAV unit (with support) of approximately $100M.  This=0A=
model may be particularly appropriate because the operations of an=0A=
air-refuelable TAV and the SR71 would be similar in several ways, not=0A=
the least of which is use of the same tanker.  The model includes -=0A=
and is sensitive to - overhead costs (assumed to be the same as for=0A=
the SR71), number of vehicles and sorties, payload (assumed to be=0A=
1,000 pounds), and fuel costs.  A key point is that this system is not=0A=
"cheap" to operate relative to most aircraft; in fact, the=0A=
numbers are comparable to SR71 operating costs.  The cost-per-pound to=0A=
orbit, however - even under fairly pessimistic assumptions (smallest=0A=
payload, relatively few flights, and high non-flying operations cost)=0A=
- is still quite low, compared to that of other launch systems.=0A=
Perhaps this shows just how expensive our current space operations=0A=
really are (at $10,000 per pound to orbit and up) and how large the=0A=
potential for improving that figure is with reusable launch=0A=
vehicles. Cost-sensitive basing schemes and logistics concepts - such=0A=
as the USAF's "Rivet Workforce," which consolidates=0A=
maintenance skills - could further reduce recurring operations and=0A=
maintenance costs.=0A=
 
=0A=
On-Orbit Operations=0A=
 
=0A=
 There are several near-term programs that would=0A=
expand our ability to provide on-orbit services.  These include the=0A=
space surveillance tracking and repositioning (SSTAR) experiment=0A=
(formerly called the electric insertion transfer experiment [ELITE]),=0A=
an Air Force-TRW cooperative research and development agreement, a=0A=
potential flight test of the ex-Soviet TOPAZ nuclear reactor, and the=0A=
space nuclear thermal propulsion program.  These deal primarily with=0A=
propulsion systems but - particularly in the case of SSTAR - also with=0A=
supporting technologies such as navigation, autonomous operation, and=0A=
potential mission-oriented payloads.  Unfortunately, all of these=0A=
programs have suffered funding setbacks and are on hold or in danger=0A=
of cancellation.=0A=
 
=0A=
Commercial Opportunities=0A=
 
=0A=
 Cheap, reliable transport to, from, and through=0A=
space offers innumerable possibilities.43 It is the=0A=
enabler for everything anyone does in the future in space.  All of the=0A=
technologies and techniques described above have potential commercial=0A=
application, but a prescription for their use is beyond the scope of=0A=
this study.  Instead, this article highlights some of the=0A=
opportunities they may create and reasons why a robust commercial=0A=
space market is ultimately essential for government use of space.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Cheap space lift is a market enabler that will open up the use of=0A=
space for things not currently practical or even anticipated.  Some=0A=
obvious possibilities include the extremely rapid delivery of people=0A=
and cargo from one point on the earth to another, while the ability to=0A=
carry passengers safely and at a reasonable cost could open a new=0A=
market for space tourism. Availability of technology that enables the=0A=
economical use of space will, in turn, spur development of a true=0A=
commercial market for all things related to spaceflight and=0A=
operations.  This will eventually drive the real cost of access to and=0A=
operations in space down even further, as jet transport has done in=0A=
the commercial aviation market.=0A=
 
=0A=
 If US manufacturers of launch vehicles pursue innovative technologies=0A=
with true marketcreating potential, they could find themselves in a=0A=
globally dominant position, just as the US aircraft industry did=0A=
following the introduction of the Boeing 707 and the DC8.  Dramatic=0A=
expansion of the market for space transport, which will not happen=0A=
without dramatic reductions in the cost of space access, is also=0A=
absolutely necessary if the US launch industry is to remain=0A=
commercially viable.  The alternative is to risk becoming like the=0A=
current US shipbuilding industry. Increasingly inefficient and=0A=
shrinking, this industry is unable to compete with low-cost and/or=0A=
subsidized foreign producers and stays alive only because of=0A=
government subsidies.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Government support in the initial stage of development is vital.=0A=
 The market for space is not large enough to drive the kind of=0A=
productive and creative explosion in space-related hardware that has=0A=
occurred in electronics, for example.  The main prerequisite for this=0A=
market-rapid, reliable, affordable space lift-is missing.  Government=0A=
and the military, whose performance requirements for launch on demand=0A=
are the most stressing now, must take the lead in this area and=0A=
produce the technological/operational breakthrough that will enable=0A=
expanded future exploitation of space and the development of a large=0A=
market to unleash the powers of commercial development.  Industry=0A=
cannot and will not make the investments needed for such breakthroughs=0A=
on its own. It faces a market similar to that for air transport prior=0A=
to the introduction of the DC3, while development of a TAV will=0A=
require an effort much like the one that produced the first jet=0A=
transports.  Development of jet transports would not have been=0A=
possible without government investment in jet engine technology and=0A=
large aircraft (e.g., the B47 and B52), despite an airtransport market=0A=
that was already fairly large.=0A=
 
=0A=

Summary
=0A=
 
=0A=
 THE CORE CONCEPT OF this article is the=0A=
Black Horse TAV.  The initial reaction of most people to the concept=0A=
is, It sounds great, but if it would really work, why hasn't anyone=0A=
thought of it before?  There is no simple answer to this question. The=0A=
United States did flirt with transatmospheric vehicles in research and=0A=
X-vehicle programs but decided in favor of expendable boosters because=0A=
of a combination of materials limitations, engine-performance=0A=
requirements, and other technical factors, coinciding with rapidly=0A=
increasing satellite weights.  It seemed that only large boosters=0A=
could put the required payloads in orbit.  The rocket community=0A=
discarded noncryogenic propellants for similar reasons.  The rocket=0A=
equation dictates that noncryogen-fueled vehicles have a propellant=0A=
mass fraction of about 95 percent; cryogens reduce this to about 90=0A=
percent.  Since all the structure, as well as the payload, must fit in=0A=
the remainder, vehicles fueled with noncryogens did not seem able to=0A=
orbit useful payloads.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Since then, however, much has changed.  Miniaturization and other=0A=
technologies now allow smaller satellites to do more than they once=0A=
could, while large, complex systems have become increasingly=0A=
unaffordable.  In other words, it is now possible to get away from the=0A=
tyranny of the payload and think first about designing a launch=0A=
vehicle for operability and even cost, and then building satellites to=0A=
fit it.  In turn, by assuming a reduced payload requirement; adding 20=0A=
years of additional knowledge in materials science, structural design=0A=
of aerospace vehicles, and liftingbody research; and recognizing that=0A=
the greater density of noncryogenic fuels compensates somewhat for=0A=
their reduced performance, the outline of a TAV concept begins to=0A=
emerge.  The final key element is the transfer of aerial propellant.44 Putting air refueling together with the other=0A=
elements - in many ways a classic example of what John Boyd calls=0A=
"destructive-creative" thinking45 - led to=0A=
the Black Horse concept.=0A=
 
=0A=
 Black Horse vehicles have the potential to revolutionize the way the=0A=
military (and perhaps eventually the commercial world) uses and even=0A=
thinks of space.  They are true aerospace vehicles, with tremendous=0A=
operational implications.  A first-cut analysis indicates not only=0A=
that the concept is feasible, but also that it can be done with no new=0A=
technologies. We must now perform a more rigorous and detailed design=0A=
and then press ahead with a Question Mark 2 X-vehicle program to=0A=
validate the system. 
=0A=
 
=0A=

=0A=
Notes=0A=

=0A=
 
=0A=

=0A=
=0A=
 
=0A=
1. The name Black Horse has multiple origins.=0A=
It is first a tribute to the British Black Arrow and Black Knight=0A=
programs, which demonstrated the basic propellant concept many=0A=
years ago.  The name also is a link to the SR71 Blackbird, which=0A=
provides the tanker aircraft and the basis for the operations-cost=0A=
model.  These connections are explained in more detail later in=0A=
the article.  The Horse part of the name honors an animal=0A=
that has carried cargo and people in peace and in war.  Finally,=0A=
Black Horse sounds a lot like dark horse, which=0A=
is certainly true of this system in the launch-systems race.=0A=
 
=0A=
 2. In honor of the first aircraft to demonstrate=0A=
aerial refueling. Thanks to Dr F. X. Kane for reminding us of the=0A=
lineage of experimental programs and for suggesting this name.=0A=
 
=0A=
 3. For example, much monolithic satellite design=0A=
(sizing, folding/deployable elements, and so forth) is based on making=0A=
maximum use of a single launch-vehicle envelope. In contrast, under=0A=
this approach, a prewired structure, solar panels, subsystem modules,=0A=
and payload modules could be designed with relatively simple,=0A=
quick-connect interfaces (work on the spacestation assembly process=0A=
would probably be used here) for manual or automated assembly.  Active=0A=
structural control would ensure that necessary alignment tolerances=0A=
were met after assembly.=0A=
 
=0A=
 4. See, for example, Air Force Mission Need Statement=0A=
20292, Military Aerospace Vehicles.=0A=
 
=0A=
 5. The "Visions" study of the US Air Force=0A=
Space and Missile Systems Center (SMC/XR), for example. Almost all=0A=
space panels conclude that space lift is the critical element in=0A=
developing space applications.=0A=
 
=0A=
 6. Hon Sheila E. Widnall, secretary of the Air Force,=0A=
speech to the National Security Industrial Association, 22 March 1994.=0A=
 
=0A=
 7. Ibid. This situation is often referred to as=0A=
"the tyranny of the payload."=0A=
 
=0A=
 8. Senate Armed Services Committee, statement of Gen=0A=
Charles A. Horner, CINC, United States Space Command, 22 April 1993.=0A=
 
=0A=
 9. DOD Space Launch Modernization Plan, April 1994.=0A=
 
=0A=
 10. Ibid.  See also "Space Traffic Control: The=0A=
Culmination of Improved Space Operations," in Spacecast=0A=
2020, vol. 1 (Maxwell AFB, Ala.: Air University, June 1994), D1.=0A=
 
=0A=
 11. See the Vice President's Space Advisory Board,=0A=
"The Future of the US Space Launch Capability: A Task Group=0A=
Report," November 1992 (the Aldridge report) for cost goals for=0A=
Spacelifter.  Other sources (cited in Air Force Institute of=0A=
Technology alternative lift briefing) generally give higher=0A=
costs-per-pound to orbit for the small, expendable lift systems than=0A=
for large expendables.=0A=
 
=0A=
 12. Aldridge report, NASP studies, Delta Clipper =
studies.=0A=
 
=0A=
 13. Edward C. Aldridge, interview with author during=0A=
first Advisory Group visit, January 1994.=0A=
 
=0A=
 14. For example, the Defense Advanced Research=0A=
Projects Agency's (DARPA) Advanced Space Technology Office has=0A=
produced several articles on the capabilities, operational benefits,=0A=
and potential cost savings of small, modular satellites.=0A=
 
=0A=
 15. Horner; Widnall.=0A=
 
=0A=
 16. Operations costs for Kennedy Space Center,=0A=
Florida, and Vandenberg AFB, California, run into billions of dollars=0A=
per year, and it takes weeks to months to refurbish a launchpad=0A=
following a launch for the next event.=0A=
 
=0A=
 17. Clapp and Hunter, "A Single Stage to Orbit=0A=
Rocket with Non-Cryogenic Propellants."=0A=
 
=0A=
 18. Ibid.=0A=
 
=0A=
 19. David Andrews, "Advantages of Hydrogen=0A=
Peroxide as a Rocket Oxidant," Journal of the British=0A=
Interplanetary Society, July 1990.  See also "Propellants for=0A=
Supersonic Vehicles: Hydrogen Peroxide," Project Rand, RA15046=0A=
(Douglas Aircraft Company, 12 August 1947).=0A=
 
=0A=
 20. Capt M. Clapp, DCX crew member, interview with=0A=
author, January 1994.=0A=
 
=0A=
 21. Of course, this technique is not limited to=0A=
horizontal takeoff and landing vehicles; it was even considered for=0A=
the Apollo mission, according to Dr F. X. Kane. However, a winged=0A=
horizontal takeoff and landing vehicle offers the best performance=0A=
match (hence, the least expensive option) to existing tanker assets.=0A=
 
=0A=
 22. For NASP, drawbacks include structural design=0A=
and materials problems due to sustained hypersonic airbreathing=0A=
flight, fuel tankage, and engines.  For carrier/orbiter concepts, they=0A=
include a large, expensive, unique carrier vehicle with considerable=0A=
development costs of its own.=0A=
 
=0A=
 23. The environment in which a TAV must operate is=0A=
no more hostile to human life than the environment in which a U2 or=0A=
TR1 routinely operates.=0A=
 
=0A=
 24. Conversation with Capt M. Clapp, USAF Phillips=0A=
Laboratory, May 1994. The number comes from the rule of thumb that=0A=
landing gear will weigh approximately 3 percent of gross takeoff (or=0A=
landing, whichever is greater) weight.=0A=
 
=0A=
 25. Ibid.=0A=
 
=0A=
 26. Full details are contained in the paper and=0A=
briefing from W. J. Schafer and Associates and Conceptual Research=0A=
Corporation, January 1994.=0A=
 
=0A=
 27. Ibid.=0A=
 
=0A=
 28. Briefing, USAF Phillips Laboratory (Capt=0A=
M. Clapp) to SPACECAST team, Maxwell AFB, Ala., 29 April=0A=
1994. Performance numbers and flight profiles were validated using=0A=
NASA's Program to Optimize Simulated Trajectories (POST).=0A=
 
=0A=
 29. Project Forecast II (U), 6 vols. (Andrews=0A=
AFB, Md.: Project Forecast II Office, June 1986); Mission Applications=0A=
Document (22 July 1990); and Force Applications Study (13 June 1991).=0A=
 
=0A=
 30. Technical Order 11M34, SUU64/B, Tactical=0A=
Munitions Dispenser,  31 May 1991, 1-110.=0A=
 
=0A=
 31. DASTR891, Comprehensive On-Orbit Maintenance=0A=
Assessment (COMA) (Kirtland AFB, N.Mex.: Directorate of Aerospace=0A=
Studies, 31 March 1989), 61.=0A=
 
=0A=
 32. Clapp interview.=0A=
 
=0A=
 33. Briefing, Rocketdyne, subject: NF104D Program,=0A=
undated (on file at Phillips Laboratory).=0A=
 
=0A=
 34. Paper and briefing from W. J. Schafer and=0A=
Associates and Conceptual Research Corporation.=0A=
 
 =0A=
 35. The design assumes an injector that is 98=0A=
percent efficient, for example. Current engine designs (the main=0A=
engine of the space shuttle, for example) achieve 99.8 percent=0A=
efficiency.=0A=
 
=0A=
 36. A ducted rocket uses the combustion and exhaust=0A=
mechanisms of a conventional rocket but gets its oxidizer (atmospheric=0A=
oxygen) by using air intakes instead of an onboard supply. This has=0A=
particular advantages at lower altitudes and speeds. Martin Marietta=0A=
Corporation, among others, has design concepts for this type of=0A=
system.=0A=
 
=0A=
 37. Based on Phillips Laboratory parametric studies.=0A=
 
=0A=
 38. AFSC/DAS study.=0A=
 
=0A=
 39. According to figures in the KC135Q=0A=
"Dash1," the tanker will be volume constrained (not by=0A=
weight or center of gravity) in the amount of hydrogen peroxide it can=0A=
carry. This restriction results in a maximum load of about 147,000=0A=
pounds.  The entire amount can be transferred in approximately 11=0A=
minutes.  The KC135Q offload rate is 1,200 gallons per minute, and=0A=
since hydrogen peroxide (at 11.92 pounds per gallon) is substantially=0A=
denser than jet fuel, this results in a propellant weight transfer of=0A=
about 14,300 pounds per minute.=0A=
 
=0A=
 40. Clapp and Hunter.=0A=
 
=0A=
 41. Paper and briefing from W. J. Schafer and=0A=
Associates and Conceptual Research Corporation.=0A=
 
=0A=
 42. Phillips Laboratory XPI, memorandum, 20 March =
1994.=0A=
 
=0A=
 43. See, for example, briefing, G. Harry Stine and=0A=
Paul C. Hans, The Enterprise Institute, subject: Economic=0A=
Considerations of Hypersonic Vehicles and Space Planes, 1990.=0A=
 
=0A=
 44. Aerial refueling is now as common in military=0A=
air operations as beverage service is on commercial flights, and it is=0A=
usually (and rightly) thought of as a way to extend the range and=0A=
endurance of aircraft. What hasn't been fully appreciated is the fact=0A=
that aerial refueling has also affected the design of aircraft (i.e.,=0A=
a fighter can have global range - if it can refuel often enough -=0A=
without carrying all that fuel at takeoff). What's new is applying=0A=
this concept to a spacefaring vehicle. For the concept to become=0A=
commercially viable, commercial operators will also have to embrace=0A=
air refueling as a routine operation, though this leap should be no=0A=
greater than that of the first commercial aircraft or the first=0A=
commercial jets.=0A=
 
=0A=
 45. John Boyd, "SPACECAST," lecture,=0A=
Maxwell AFB, Ala., October 1993.  
=0A=
=0A=

=0A=
=0A=
 
Disclaimer=0A=
=0A=
 
The conclusions and opinions expressed in this document are those=0A=
of the author cultivated in the freedom of expression, academic=0A=
environment of Air University. They do not reflect the official=0A=
position of the US Government, Department of Defense, the United=0A=
States Air Force or the Air University.=0A=
 
=0A=
 
=0A=
[=0A=
Air =
Chronicles Home Page  =0A=
| Black Horse Home Page=0A=
]
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=

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